User talk:Jimbo Wales

Idea

I've been an administrator, mediator and bureaucrat here for over a decade and I don't think I've ever written on Jimbo's talk page (maybe once or twice). Anyway, I've just gotten my first topic ban from Donald Trump. Sure, I deserved it, but there are about 10 more editors violating policies and having conflicts of interest routinely in order to whitewash the article of seemingly anti-Trump material. The admins presiding over the pages aren't doing anything about it. Since you recently stepped in to unilaterally move Meghan Markle, what about swinging by the American politics pages and doing a bunch of drive-by banning/blocking? Andrevan@ 18:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom could pass a motion on imposing general sanctions on pages related to Trump. Count Iblis (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Err...they could also pass a motion preventing JW from doing anything "drive-by" :D —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 19:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I certainly didn't intend to cause any dustup in the case of Meghan Markle - just to do the right thing as a bit of fun. I remember when it used to be ok to do the right thing at Wikipedia and have some fun with it.  :-) Now, as to the Trump situation, I think I'll steer very far from it for now. Happy to have a long read at some point to see what I think, but.... I generally believe that editors should mostly stay away from situations or topics that are very emotional for them, and I can get quite emotional about Donald Trump. It would be a lot of work for me personally to write in a neutral way about him, because he upsets me so much.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, and thanks for replying! I have contributed my time and money to Wikipedia for many years and intend to continue to do so, and I support breaking things like Markle from time to time. Maybe you yourself would be topic banned from Trump as I have :-) I also miss the days when WP:IAR could be used when appropriate to improve the encyclopedia despite some technical issues, ie the spirit and not the letter of policy. There's a difference between cowboy adminning and knowing when to break the rules for the spirit of Wiki, NPOV, verifiability, freedom, the wisdom of crowds, democracy, and so on. Anyway, as I said, the topic ban is totally justified, but I haven't seen enough of a boomerang for issues like this [1][2] not to single anyone out, but if there's anything that upsets me more about users trying to censor Trump's shameful past and his pending investigations, it's people attacking the consensus system that has brought us the amazing things that the community has done, and you and I helped with in whatever large or small way. So -- I do urge you to review some of what's gone on despite the strong emotional feelings there for all of our sakes, but I totally understand why you may not, and I thank you again for many productive and happy years here. Andrevan@ 20:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Btw, since we can fast-forward Markle's Google trend into the future, can we extrapolate Trump RS post-impeachment? ;-) Andrevan@ 20:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

For someone who has been topic banned from editing Trump related things you sure are still talking about him everywhere. Just saying. --Tarage (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The one-time "appeal to Jimbo" and the "appeal to blocking admin" are valid exceptions to a blanket topic ban, and valid surrealist techniques. I wasn't even asking the topic ban be lifted off myself. As Jimbo says, I was doing what I thought was the right thing and focusing on the basics, like a simple discussion about a policy instead of filling out an appeal form or filing a case with clerks etc. As I said, the topic ban can stand and is justified, I've unwatched the articles and related articles' talk pages. Andrevan@ 21:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Already covered by American politics. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Andrevan, You are lucky that you didn't get desysopped after accusing several veteran editors of being paid Russian trolls. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

That, and attempted outing of editors - not just in-Wikipedia but outside Wikipedia at an anti-Wikipedia site.[3], [4]. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:59, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Diffs:[5][6], [7][8][9][10]

Thread:[11]

Quotes:

• "Wikipedia is under attack by Russian/GOP agents and partisans. [redacted] is probably one of them, and I would not assume that just because there is a lengthy history going back years that the user cannot also be a paid editor. We know that the Russians spent time building profiles and activating them later." _{-- posted by Andrevan on 05:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

• "I suspect at least some of these users to be paid Russian/GOP/NRA advocacy agents -- Trump World PR reps. [...] I may have given up my impartiality to engage on the page over the last few days, but I submit I was doing so in the interest of ultimately making progress in the dispute. I won't hide my own POV about Mr. Trump" _{-- posted by Andrevan on 05:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

• "...which supports the idea of [redacted] being a Russian agent..." _{--posted by Andrevan on 05:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

The sanction Andrevan is complaining about ("You are topic banned for three months from editing any page related to Donald Trump, broadly construed. This includes all talk pages") was incredibly lenient. I think that as a minimum he should have been infinitely topic banned from all articles involving post-1932 American politics, broadly construed, with the option of appealing the topic ban after 6 months if and only if he showed an understanding of what he did wrong and a commitment to never again call anyone a Russian agent without solid proof -- and I don't consider disagreeing with him in a content dispute to be "proof". --Guy Macon (talk) 03:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

And not all the eds on those pages were long term users. These were PA's yes, but lets not pretend he had the decency to make it clear who he was among those comnents at.Slatersteven (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, he may be on to something or on something or something.--MONGO 11:20, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears from the above comment that Slatersteven still does not understand what he did wrong. We aren't allowed to call anyone -- new user or long term user -- a Russian agent without at the same time providing solid evidence. Again, he should be topic banned or indeffed until he "gets it". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Which part of "These were PA's yes" displays a lack of understanding they were PA's?Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

What was the point of writing the words "And not all the eds on those pages were long term users" if not to imply that at least some of the short term users are Russian agents? I keep seeing you Andrevan saying "yes, it was a PA" but I haven't seen you Andrevan say "and I was wrong. I have zero evidence that 'Wikipedia is under attack by Russian/GOP agents', I have zero evidence that 'we know that the Russians spent time building profiles and activating them later', or I have zero evidence that 'at least some of these users [are] paid Russian/GOP/NRA advocacy agents'. I am not seeing you Andrevan stating "I have decided to not hold opinions that are not backed up by evidence". Instead, it sound a lot like you are Andrevan is agreeing not to name individual editors as being Russian agents while holding on to your his batshit insane conspiracy theory that Wikipedia is infiltrated by Russian agents and that somehow this has something to do with the GOP and the NRA. Andrevan, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and plainly state that you no longer believe those things.

You Andrevan already freely admitted "I may have given up my impartiality" and "I won't hide my own POV about Mr. Trump." above, Jimbo says "I generally believe that editors should mostly stay away from situations or topics that are very emotional for them, and I can get quite emotional about Donald Trump. It would be a lot of work for me personally to write in a neutral way about him, because he upsets me so much". That's good advice. I would also mention that I generally avoid the political pages for the same reason (the difference being that I have equal disdain for both sides while existing in in a sea of POV-pushing editors who think that their side are angels while the other side are devils). --Guy Macon (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Guy, you seem to be confusing me with Slatersteven. Aside from that, I said that the topic ban is justified, and I wasn't asking Jimbo to find otherwise. I just asked if he would go and find some deserving editors on the other side and ban them as well. Andrevan@ 03:23, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

My mistake. I struck out the error and corrected it above. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

To point out your statement he made it about long term eds was not correct (well not from what I saw). I have no issue with condemning bad behavior, as long as we condemn it for the right reasons. But if we condemn it for the wrong reasons we give an impression that maybe it was not as bad as we make it our to be. Nothing is going to get this overturned quicker then the accused being able to say "but look he does not even know who said what about whomever".Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Is it not considered poor form for a topic banned editor to come here asking for other editors to get banned from the same topic? Lepricavark (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• It seems like a fair question if indeed the other editors exhibited behavior that is the same or worse than the topic-banned editor. The problem is that [A] most people who have looked at the page don't agree about other's behavior being worse, and [B] Jimbos's talk page is not the right place place to ask for someone to be topic banned. Claiming that "the one-time 'appeal to Jimbo' and the 'appeal to blocking admin' are valid exceptions to a blanket topic ban" while at the same time saying "I wasn't even asking the topic ban be lifted off myself" and instead asking for other users to be topic banned is really stretching the meaning of the word "appeal". --Guy Macon (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Feel free to continue to discuss here, but what's done is done. You apparently didn't read my various statements because you prejudge them to not contain anything useful. You even just apparently confused me with a different user. I have let the matter and the appeal, as it were, lie. Like I said, I didn't contest the topic ban, it was following policy, and I walked directly up to the line before stepping over it. My entire endeavor on the articles I've been banned from was to draw attention to a problematic whitewashing campaign on them, and I would gladly ignore the articles if they were being properly watched over. I am entitled to appeal discussion around the ban itself even if I use that space and time to instead call for the cartel of editors trying to downplay Roseanne's racism, or whatever it is, to be properly dealt with. It isn't that hard to recognize policy violating POV pushers who constantly repeat arguments like "that's an opinion," "you haven't given me proof," "give me one piece of evidence," "that's OR/SYNTH," "the sources don't say that," when every source you have says Roseanne's tweets about Soros and calling Valerie Jarrett an ape are racist. Doesn't matter if Sputnik or Breitbart thought Roseanne was fine and Bill Maher is the real problem. Organized, socking POV pushers should be dealt with with extreme prejudice, and it's not that hard to spot. You don't AGF when people aren't being honest and you can't reason with them. Andrevan@ 05:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

And yet again you remain blind to the reasons you were TBANned. There is no "whitewashing campaign", there are no "Russian/GOP/NRA" paid trolls. Your behavior is particularly strange as you claimed being a veteran "rouge admin"; surely you remember that There is no cabal. For your own good, please stop your RGW crusade; you are only damaging your own reputation, possibly beyond repair. — JFG ^talk 06:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I would hardly call the above a good reason for you to stay an admin, if you are not capable of obeying policy because you are going to oppose "problematic whitewashing campaign"s (battleground if ever I saw it) then In think you should not be an admin, it is clear that your politics is getting in the way of your neutrality.Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is a popular site, and its articles often appear high in search-engine rankings. You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that's not the case. We can record the righting of great wrongs, but we can't ride the crest of the wave because we can only report that which is verifiable from reliable and secondary sources, giving appropriate weight to the balance of informed opinion: even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. [...] Wikipedia doesn't lead, we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. What we do is find neutral ways of presenting them."
Source: Wikipedia:Tendentious editing#Righting great wrongs
--Guy Macon (talk) 15:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Because Andrevan can no longer reply (See User talk:Andrevan#Blocked for topic ban violations) the above will be my last comment on this subject. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

As another editor topic banned due to a POV-pushing tag-team, I applaud Andrevan's behavior as exemplary, and condemn the collaborators acting against both him and the quality of the encyclopedia in the strongest possible terms.

Jimbo, yes it's emotional. Would you have asked Martin Luther King to avoid speaking and acting on controversial topics because he was too emotionally involved? I agree, you should step in and stop the organized whitewashing. History is watching. EllenCT (talk) 17:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I assume this is satire.Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I am entirely sincere. EllenCT (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Then frankly I am amazed you think his behavior was exemplary. He broke the rules, I do not consider breaking "the law" even for the best of motives exemplary. Comparing his actions to those of a man fighting actual harmful prejudice (rather then fighting to claim a man in innocent, as far as I know a corner stone of both our nations legal system) just undermines the whole idea this is anything but party politics. He (that is to say Andrevan) does not face death or threats of violence. He is not some Martin Luther King, he is (at best, and being very generous) A Donkey hooting at windmills.Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If IAR does not apply or is not upheld by administrators in the face of the world's most consequential coordinated racist, nationalist, fascist, discriminatory disinformation campaign since the advent of Wikipedia, then the encyclopedia is reduced to nothing more than the tyranny of the most common denominator of tag-team reactionary whitewashing. Is Andrevan the only bureaucrat with the backbone to stand up to those who want to hide the truth about what secondary sources say about Donald Trump? And look at what happened to him. That is the future of accuracy on Wikipedia, because admins would rather retreat to the ease of collaboration with activist tag-teams than with those upholding neutral representation of the reliable sources, and basic human decency. EllenCT (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You are aware that these racist nationalist, fascist discriminatory disinformationists did not (as far as I recall) get their way? In fact it was the fact they were not being allowed to get their way that caused the spat he threw a wobbly over. The rest of us just said "nay, nay and thrice nay". You do not need to shout abuse and lob around accusations to win an argument, you just have to have... a slightly better argument. All he (and I suspect you are now) did was to dig a hole his opponents could bury him in.Slatersteven (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Your description does not comport at all with the portions of the dispute I reviewed. EllenCT (talk) 15:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Well all I can do is judge what I saw as a party to part of it. What So which racist, nationalist, fascist, discriminatory disinformation did they manage to get past his vigilance?Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I was going to reply in more detail, but since I saw your threat to suppress my opinions you left on my talk page, I'll just repeat what I asked in January: Why doesn't Trump's intro state his record low approval rating? Why doesn't it describe his record low rating among journalist fact-checkers? Why doesn't it convey the Trump administration's record number of criminal indictments? Why is it silent on the record number of resignations under Trump? EllenCT (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The intro of any article merely summarizes major points made in the article and all the points you touched on are in the article itself, but may not be in the intro itself as consensus may have deemed they fall short of UNDUE, especially for what should a neutral treatise in one of our BLPs of a very public figure.--MONGO 17:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Approval ratings change, regardless of who it is with (also what the hell are "journalist fact-checkers" is this even a thing?). Have there been a record number of criminal indictments? ( I count 5, which is less then bush). So then we have record number of resignations, here you now have a fact. No idea why it is not there, care to link to the discussion so I can see what reasons were given for its exclusion?Slatersteven (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

See Donald Trump#False statements, the second paragraph under Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric, [12], and [13]. Why would you think that those removing any of these highly noteworthy facts from summarization in the biography's introduction have ever given any valid reasons for excluding them? Isn't Mongo's personal position that these record-breaking statistics among 45 US presidents are simply "UNDUE" good enough for you? EllenCT (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No, as you said "trump administration", not "Russian interference". So not what a some Russian did has nothing to do with the lead of the Trump article, only what he has done (or maybe those acting on his orders). Also I think I asked not "provide me with proof any of this is true" I said" show me were there was a discussion to keep this out of a lead". So I shall rephrase the question (and hopefully make it a bit ore clear.

Can you provide proof that there have been attempts made to keep information of of the Donald page relating to the matters you have raised here?Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Right.--MONGO 17:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

...because not being allowed to discuss the potential motivations of Wikipedia editors[14] is soooo hard on EllenCT. Perhaps we should go back to the well and ask for an additional topic ban prohibiting her complaining about her topic ban other than at the normal places where one makes an appeal to have a topic ban lifted? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I assume this is satire.Slatersteven (talk) 08:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The "soooo hard" bit is sarcasm (which is subtly different from satire), but the additional topic ban is, I think, worth discussing. I am, however, biased by the fact that I find EllenCT's habit of coatracking comments on how unfair her her topic ban was on pretty much any discussion of any topic ban anywhere to be incredibly annoying. Thus I think someone else should weigh the actual amount of disruption it causes. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are so annoyed, disappointed that your reaction to being annoyed is to demand censorship, and revolted that you use such inaccurate hyperbole to describe my abstention from participating over the past year, but unsurprised that such bullying and harassment is still tolerated and encouraged here. EllenCT (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

                      Trollometer 
   
   0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10
   ___________________________________________________
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   ---------------------------------------------------
        ^
        |
   Oooh! Barely a one! 
   Sorry, EllenCT.
   Try a little harder next time.
   Thanks for playing!
   
   --Guy Macon (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

From DSM-5 (2013): Normative stress reactions. When bad things happen, most people get upset. This is not an adjustment disorder. The diagnosis should ... be made when the magnitude of the distress exceeds what would normally be expected (which may vary in different cultures). --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:03, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Now, now. Science has no place in Wikipedia discussions. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

A great idea

This relates to the section above User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Create copies of Wikipedia operating under slightly different rules and policies

A for-profit company, Wikisoft will be starting a "Wikipedia" for businesses Wikisoft Corp is Launching New “Wikipedia” for Business and Business Professionals (sorry this is a PR announcement, but I couldn't find a reliable source). They promise 200 million articles on businesses, execs, product lines, brands, etc., at the site www.wikiprofile.com by mid-August.

I'm not sure about their business model - it could be supported by advertising, but I suspect they'll be taking payments from the companies who want a "profile" posted. Others have tried something like this, but this company looks at least minimally competent - they can put together a press release.

Why is this a great idea? Well the folks who want to advertise on-Wiki now have a place to go and not bother us anymore. We won't have to deal anymore with biased articles on food trucks, real estate companies in Singapore known for their beautiful websites, or financial scammers. Wikiprofile might even put a few paid editing companies out of business. Of course there will be some businesses who would want to get a freebie here, rather than a paid-for profile there, but at this point is should be obvious to everybody that they are just trying to take something from an educational charity that they can properly pay for elsewhere.

Could we perhaps do something to encourage Wikiprofile? Maybe steer a few potential customers their way? Congratulate them in the press for their wonderful idea? Post their contact info at WP:Paid?

There is one question I do think they'll have to answer before the site becomes successful - why would any readers go to a site consisting of 200 million adverts?

BTW - I'm not being paid by these guys (or anyone else) and I have no COI (except as explained above - I'd like them to take away some of our problem articles)

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Unless they're as heavily favoured by Google search results as Wikipedia is I expect that this will do virtually nothing to stop the shameless promoters from coming here. After all, the primary reason they come here is for (a) our Alexa ranking and (b) Google's putting it at the top of almost every relevant search. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Google's algorithms favor websites with (generally) informative and comprehensive original content such as Wikipedia, as opposed to rehashed spam like wikipromowhatever.com. Who will write these 200 million articles, and what will prevent this site from becoming a vast garbage dump? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Best guesses a) corporate PR folks, b) nothing. So there are a few kinks to work out. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 08:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Whoops! I withdraw anything above that might seem like a recommendation or anything of the sort. There's an unusual IPO associated with this and I wouldn't want to say anything here that encourages (or otherwise) people to invest in that. I'll investigate further and be back. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

There is lots to question here, especially with the IPO. First I'll say that I'm not a lawyer and I'm not giving any advice, just exploring an unusual situation. Some basics

• Wikisoft's address is 315 Montgomery Street, 1600 San Francisco, CA a 4 minute walk from the WMF. It might be a mail box only type address (located on the 9th and 10th floors) because I don't think the building has 16 floors (though they might have just skipped a few floor numbers)
• The IPO is unusual in that
  • it is not open to US investors (unless they are accredited)
  • they have already set an issue price
  • they say the stock will be traded on "OTC Stock Market" (note the capital letters) which is not a proper noun and could refer to any of several "exchanges" including the pink sheets (unlisted market)
  • no investment banker is mentioned
  • they don't offer to send you a prospectus
  • information on one webpage contradicts info in the press release, e.g. one page says they (will?) have 328M+ searchable content pages vs. the 200 million stated in the press release.

There are more oddities, so I'll just say that I personally will stay as far away from this company as possible. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

yeah they are probably violating a few securities laws there. Jytdog (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Alternate proposal

I wonder if we should do a SPLIT of Wikipedia, between a) pop culture and b) everything else.

Wherein "pop culture" =

a) Any event in the last three years (!)

b) any company, product, or service created or published in the last three years

c) Sports

d) Television, movies, video, video games

Can you imagine how different NPP would be? How different ANI would be? Zowie. Jytdog (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Even a simple rule prohibiting anything less than seven days old would prevent a boatload of crap. If readers knew (from a notice on the front page) that everything on Wikipedia was at least a week out of date, they would go elsewhere to get their breaking news. Like maybe Wikinews or Wiki Tribune... :) You shouldn't expect an encyclopedia to cover something that happened yesterday. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've got some sympathy for this proposal, but the idea of splitting off very roughly half our content into another encyclopedia isn't going to be implemented for at least a year. And it would require a huge amount of work, so I'll sit this one out. I will suggest a name for the split material however: WikiPop.org. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Or we could just call it "Bubble Pop"... --Guy Macon (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I see no way in hell that this would ever happen and I don't intend to try seriously float it anywhere, but it is something I have fantasized about. It would be a much better world. :) Jytdog (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, there is no way a radical idea like making Wikipedia into an encyclopedia would ever happen. But we can dream...

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(lyrics redacted see here for the lyrics)[15]

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--Guy Macon (talk) 21:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You can let an engine run on water by exploiting the fact that liquid water is not at thermal equilibrium in the atmosphere. Liquid water spontaneously evaporates as long as the relative humidity is lower than 100%. The maximum work you can extract by reversibly evaporating water is given by the drop in the Gibbs energy. Since water will be in thermal equilibrium with its vapor, the Gibbs energy of water is the same as that of water vapor at 100% humidity. If we treat the vapor as an ideal gas, then it follows that the Gibbs energy of the vapor at a humidity of r is lower than that of the vapor at 100% humidity by -NkT Log(r), where N is the number of molecules in the vapor. So, the amount of work you can extract from 1 liter of water at 20 C at 60% relative humidity is about 6.9 *10^4 Joules. Count Iblis (talk) 12:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Battle for freedom of speech re Roseanne

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In the U.S. there is a bizarre battle for freedom of speech over internet humor. The Caucasian actress Roseanne Barr tweeted a joke about The Planet of the Apes and evidently some people think the word "ape" is a code word for "negro" in reverse racism, and so she was labelled "racist" for her tweet, and her #1 scripted comedy show, Roseanne, starring mostly white people was cancelled by U.S. ABC Television, plus reruns of the orignal 1990s show also were cancelled in syndication. Many U.S. citizens did not know "ape" was a reverse code word for "negro" as if talking about "Whitey Bulger" would trigger reverse slur "whitey" as a demeaning insult to Caucasian people. Apparentky, talk about the recent film Battle for the Planet of the Apes would make some people cringe while others would be completely unaware of the reverse racism to claim people who talk about apes (or monkeys) are "racist bigots". I think this incident is huge, because it explains the need to protect freedom of speech, where one person's primate is another person's pejorative. Hence, WP policies should probably be expanded to protect freedom of speech, after this extremely public example of a teachable moment in human civil rights. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:54, 31 May 2018 (UTC) Addendum: In the 1968 Planet film, the main ape characters were played by white actors and actresses. Without revealing plot details, the apes had both dark-skinned and light-skinned members. Upon 1968 release, it was a puzzle to reveal who were those famous ape actors, and in the 1960s became common knowledge. AFAICT, the only obvious black actors were among the human crowds, and there was no racism about skin color, but the tension was human race versus ape beings, and the film seemed to blow people's minds (in 1968) how human racism was completely irrelevant as the ape groups treated all humans as a set. To claim the film as racism would be like saying, "Isaac Newton hated mathematics" (not) or, "Queen Elizabeth is the top Catholic leader" (equally absurd as Planet of the Apes called racist); the film was unracist; instead it erased human racism against larger concerns. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this defense of the joke makes no sense to me. It is a very well known racist slur to refer to dark skinned people as looking like or being like apes or monkeys, and there is very very little question that this is what Roseanne meant by it. Her comment/joke doesn't make sense if we try to interpret it as referring in some way to the anti-racist messages of the original Planet of the Apes film(s). Roseanne's apology specifically said "I am truly sorry for making a bad joke about her politics and her looks." The politics part was referring to the Muslim Brotherhood, and the looks part was referring to the Planet of the Apes. Yes, Roseanne Barr does have the freedom of expression to say such a thing - and other people have every right to shun her, cancel her tv show, and call her out on her racism in return.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The Ape meme is an equal-opportunity caricature in U.S. politics, including white W. Bush (2001) and D. Trump (2017); see Google: Commander-in-Chimp Bush or "Trumpanzee: Commander-in-Chimp". I am horrified that some people identify black people as apes, but ignore Trumpanzee as if totally unrelated; there is a hideous stereotype being imagined, and that is deeply disturbing. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:06, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Freedom of speech means the government can't arrest you for speaking. It doesn't mean private companies (like American Broadcasting Company) and individuals can't decide that your speech is so racist and rancid that they no longer want to have anything to do with you. People think Roseanne is an asshole and they showed her the door. That's not a free speech issue, unless you think there's a constitutional right to have a television show. (Hint: There is not.) NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:01, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm referring to freedom of speech as a civil right, as in Athens, Greece, upheld within a civil organization, as how some people think saying "planet..apes" is racist and must be suppressed, while others don't. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Freedom of speech (which pertains to government control over your speech) does not mean freedom from consequences. You are aware of this? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:02, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Freedom of speech has meant much more than that in Greece, where it has been illegal to remove political posters, even illegal to trash posters dropped on the sidewalks at election time. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Excellent point. Re: "WP policies should probably be expanded to protect freedom of speech" what would Wikid77 have us do? Use our vast dictatorial powers to force a TV network to carry a show that they no longer wish to carry? If we have that power, we should resurrect Firefly first. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

You've missed the point: use of the term "Planet of the Apes" was considered racist, against common use, and against the actual theme of the film, and condemned as unspeakable, which is a dangerous attitude to allow in a group. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Rather, you have missed the point, people are free to condemn it all they want, that's freedom -- you think freedom is dangerous, but that's just the standard autocrats appeal to control others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:19, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Cobblers. Wikipedia is not a debating forum it is an encyclopedia. And just as many encyclopedias do not allow you to have articles with titles like "why Trump is a wanker" or "why white people are all racist" we do not allow tings like that (try it). As a private institution it is not governed by the first, second or umpteenth amendment, it is governed by "my house my rules". As such you have as much right to edit here as anyone else, and that is mall you have a right to do. As to the rest, this is not a forum take it somewhere else.Slatersteven (talk) 15:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

And you have as much right to say "Mr Wales is a nerk" as I would to go round your house and shout "Wikid77 is a nerk", and that is the only free speech issue we have any control over, ourselves.Slatersteven (talk) 15:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Damn the fact that I only have a phone for the next two weeks. As NBSB states, FoS relates to government action. One thing NBSB doesn't mention is that forcing ABC to reinstate the show would abridge their right to freedom of association which is also guaranteed by the first amendment. There is no guarantee of FoS on Wikipedia either, btw. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Another such case: "Florida police officer suspended after saying Parkland survivor should be run over". Count Iblis (talk) 15:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, the only "teachable moment" possible here is that you don't protect freedom of speech by telling organizations what programs they have to carry, nor is freedom of speech involved in the situation, at all, nor is Wikipedia a free speech forum, and finally, fine you have an opinion about these tweets, well freedom means others will have different opinions about those tweets. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:13, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Anybody who genuinely thinks that freedom of speech should protect an entertainer from being fired by their employer for making racist statements in public, is not competent to comment on the matter. Guy (Help!) 16:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

This may be the dumbest thing I've read on this page since the last time I checked this page. Gamaliel (talk) 16:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Wait, remember, many people do not know what Roseanne said is not racist, but rather was twisted by reverse racism to dogpile the "racist" claim against her. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Katie Rich didn't have her own tv-show, but there are similarities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:00, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, I had forgotten how an unusual political joke can be used to eliminate the speaker. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Haha, many people don't know "ape" here was a slur for black people? Come on Wikid77--I know people like to make fun of Americans, but we're not THAT dumb. And reverse racism--OH SO THE ONES WHO SAID A RACIST COMMENT WAS RACIST ARE THE REAL RACISTS! Thanks for clearing that up. Ima call Becky and go polish my Iron Crosses. Drmies (talk) 20:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Many white Americans are not really that racist, to worry if "Apes" is a vicious insult against black peiple; instead it is a code word in reverse racism to claim a person who says, "Apes" is a total racist bigot, rather than a person who mentioned primates. A similar code word is "boy" (versus "girl"), as a reference to any male servant as "boy" while talk of girls and boys is 99.99% the actual meaning in use. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I am dumb, but I never realized that any mention of apes was insulting to black people. Sure, I can see how "black people are apes" would be just as insulting as "Italian people are apes" (they actually fight apes[16]), but just mentioning apes? Now that I know, I will be careful to avoid that word. Serious question: am I still allowed to discuss primates? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: Your blacks and Italians comparison suggests you haven't been exposed to or come across the pseudoscientific theory that blacks are less evolved (hence, "apes") than other "races". You might want to have a look at Race, Evolution, and Behavior and Scientific racism. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Wow. I have seen some stupid ideas in my time but that one is near the top of the list. It also flies in the face of science. See Ancient DNA Reveals Neandertals With Red Hair, Fair Complexions. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:10, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a remarkable example of how people who complain about infringements on freedom of speech are generally the ones who have the least understanding of what it actually means.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 20:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• You're just saying that cause you're a liberal/Canadian/administrator/racist/miner/human being/parent/etc. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• On the contrary, I almost always vote conservative. But I am pragmatic, and able to read. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 20:17, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Gamaliel. This proposal would make Wikipedia fall to the level of 4Chan and all sane editors would retire. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:13, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The only part worth considering here is the resurrect Firefly bit.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC))

• Wikid77, not to get all smart and all that here--but OK, if you really wish to argue that she may not have meant "blacks are apes" because, you know, for "most" people that's not what it means (let's play along now), then why can you say with a straight face that this is "internet humor"? That's original research, no? Or was it tagged with a smiley face? Anyway, I can't wait for the UN Court of Human Civil Rights to hear the Roseanna case. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

All I can repeat is that white Americans have really not been that racist (I've talked with hundreds of white Americans in private settings), and I can assure you they are not plotting the racial divide. In fact what seems the truth is that many whites and blacks grew up together, and whites were unaware how reverse racism was being planned by some black activists. In fact to white Americans, the word "nigger" had come to mean a "hardworking servant" rather than an obstinate negro, and a white man might have said about mowing and trimming hedges, "I'll be a yard nigger all morning today" with zero reference to black skin, just the work. Since the "N-word" has been banned, other words have been invented to refer to black people who are organizing against whites (say no more). Meanwhile, the reality continues, quietly, as police shoot more U.S. white men than other races (combined), and most Americans in poverty are whites "too proud" to accept handouts not earned by direct labor. In fact, I've met many white Americans who really could be called "apes" but general stereotypes should be avoided for all races, all people. Hopefully, by freedom of speech, the world will learn how American white people are just not that racist, in reality. Whites did not accidentally elect black President Obama twice, by mistake (as if oops, forgot to check skin color). -Wikid77 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh boy oh boy. You're complaining that you can't call black people the n-word. what.. I have no words. Every time I read this it becomes more racist (also, white Americans voted against Obama both elections) Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:20, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually most of Obama's voters were white people (28% in 2012, as 39% of 72% white voters; see facts: [17]). Most white voters have voted Republican for 50 years, but if all whites voted by race, Obama would never have been President. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

You should be banned per WP:COMPETENCE on the insanity of this statement alone. Gamaliel (talk) 11:05, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

People can and do lose their jobs/face backlash/are taken to the mattresses for things they say publically and social media is public in most cases. I find the comments made (and I will not utter them even in a highly modified form as all know now what was written) to be unspeakably ugly and racist and any entity that rightfully works to defend against such ignorance and hate should not continue any working relationship with anyone that publically states such nonsense. How is it even to be considered humor? Wikilawyering about how most of the cast members that wore ape suits and masks in the Planet of the Apes movies were white is absolutely besides the point. Anyone with more than 13 brain cells knows her comment was a racial slur and deserves condemnation.--MONGO 12:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

yep the whole thread from CHELSEA SOROS CLINTON onward was very typical alt right trolling, full of racist Dog-whistle politics/memes. This is how these crazy conspiracy theories get built - they are just meme-agglomerations. and btw the Obama (all of them) ape-images in the underbelly of the internet is one of the roots of the altright. (for a walk-through of the historical development of the ape meme, hereJytdog (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Many years before any Obama-monkey jokes, there was the 2001 Bush "Commander-in-Chimp" meme and "Hail to the chimp" jokes; don't claim Obama-monkey is racist but Bush-chimp is totally different. That's what freedom of speech reveals: white politicians have been compared to monkeys or chimps (scientists in 1968 Planet of the Apes). -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikid77, your post here is racist statement after racist statement. I have the freedom to tell you that. You damn "white" people with faint praise ('not all that racist', huh?), but most incredibly you go on and on about the n-word, how it has nothing to do with skin, and then you do an about face and say when it could no longer be used, you had to think up another word for "black people". There is so much sophistry in what you write, that it seems you won't understand (unintentionally or intentionally) anything people here have said to you. So I will just leave this, 'shame on you.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I can understand it's difficult to refute what I said, but resorting to ad hominem fallacy, claiming racism, is just a cop-out. When I explained how the N-word has multiple meanings (as a "hardworking servant"), you just ignored all alternative views and claimed, "racism" so it's probably just as well for you to exit until you can discuss issues, not disparage people. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not in the least difficult to refute what you said. But what you said is racism, that's not ad hominem, which just shows your sophistry -- that's just what you wrote in your talk about "white" people and "black" people - that is textual reading. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

So is there an actual concrete proposal here?Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The proposal is to better protect freedom of speech on WP, where someone above even indicated this discussion should lead to a topic-ban! -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4 Count Iblis (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Neither Rosie's tweets nor the NFL owners decision to ban anthem protests/not hire Kaepernik are free speech issues. The backlash and firings are rightly at the discretion of the employer. NYNNY (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, they are still free-speech issues, but those organizations chose to impose various restrictions, such as how players can protest issues around the U.S. national anthem, not kneeling. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not about any mention of apes. Context matters. When a known racist is deliberately trying to demean a black person who worked in the Obama administration by throwing ape and Muslim at them, the message is clearly racist and anti-Muslim xenophobia, possibly tinged with anti-Obama sentiments, since both slurs were often used about him by Trump supporters like Barr. It's pretty simple. The OP "happened" to leave out any of that context, so this thread has been baiting right from the start and should be closed. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Wow, you really missed the whole point about other opinions; remember "Commander-in-Chimp" was the chimpanzee caricature used against President George W. Bush in 2001, along with "Hail to the chimp!" in January 2001. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm interested in bringing this to wide attention in the community

This tweet leads you to information about an upcoming vote in the European Parliament which is very important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo Wales why are they choosing to police this now?--5 albert square (talk) 15:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Pressure from the as-ever overreaching copyright lobby, I would say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

[ec]

• European Copyright Law Isn't Great. It Could Soon Get a Lot Worse.
• Updated position paper: Article 13 remains a terrible idea and needs to be deleted
• Copyright wars are damaging the health of the internet
• Article 13 could "destroy the internet as we know it": What is it, why is it controversial and what will it mean for memes?
• EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line
• European Copyright Leak Exposes Plans to Force the Internet to Subsidize Publishers
• Text of the proposal: English Other languages and formats

Especially troubling for Wikipedia is the proposed link tax which allows large media corporations to charge Wikipedia licensing fees for posting links through a new type of copyright. It would also require that we install software (presumably written by the copyright owners) to monitor edits and censor them if the computer program detects copyrighted content. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd say that's going outwith what can be policed. I can't see it being passed because I would imagine that is going to be near enough impossible for websites to police especially the likes of Facebook, Twitter etc. It's going to present a nightmare for the Commons admins!--5 albert square (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyright monopsonists. Europeans click here: https://saveyourinternet.eu EllenCT (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd have felt better about opposing new copyright protection if WMF had done more to support the person responsible for the monkey selfie. Even if it was to hire him to create promotional material for fundraising. But sticking it to him makes me rather insensitive to WMF's own concerns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.98.208 (talk) 02:12, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

That is my take on this. I am kind of reminded of when Games Workshop whines about IP infringement. Maybe if we did more to help out those whose work (and yes he, not the monkey) spend the money on buying the kit and spent the time setting it up), then we would not now be facing a backlash from the peoples whose livelihoods we are affecting. It is just a shame that what will happen is that people like him will still not really have the wherefore all to fight, and the only people who will really benefit are the ones who do not really need it (like the GW copyright trolls of this world).Slatersteven (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Perhaps more essays about download restrictions: Warn people when a back-up download is allowed for personal use, but sending 2nd-hand copies of downloads would violate copyrights, so send only URL addresses to enable other users to download their own backup copies of files, images or videos. There was the infamous case in the U.S. of copies of a Rob Lowe sex tape passed around as gag gifts, but the bigger issue was the guy was reportedly only 17-years-old in the video, as child porn, which implicated the user as a criminal pedophile, and after release from jail, could be forced from their home if near schools, as a registered sex offender for the rest of their lives[!]. Help people understand the potential dangers of downloads passed around as gifts or viral videos. Accidental downloads might be no excuse against criminal charges. Perhaps smarter phones will have a disable-download-key feature to avoid people being arrested for accidental downloads stored on their phones. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:37/12:43, 2 June 2018 (UTC) He was a she and was only 16 (not 17), so a lot of wrong here. Nor have I any idea what this has to do with the new EU law.Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC) I don't think Wikid77 considers little things like "relevance" or "appropriateness" or "coherence" or "sanity" before posting here. Gamaliel (talk) 13:11, 2 June 2018 (UTC) I think they still have the protection of our police state (remember we do not have freedom of speech here).Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 2 June 2018 (UTC)