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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ericglm.4 (talk | contribs) at 00:14, 28 June 2018 (→‎Survey). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage Template:Vital article

Requested move 19 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: clearly, this discussion will not result in a consensus to move the page as proposed at this time. Wikipedia does not necessarily use official titles (WP:OFFICIAL). If reliable sources begin to use "eSwatini" and there is a clear shift in common usage (WP:COMMONNAME), it may be worth revisiting this, but only after those shifts take place. Dekimasuよ! 10:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Swaziland → eSwatini – Swaziland has changed their name to eSwatini. As a result of this name change, the article on the country should be changed to eSwatini with a redirect from Swaziland. - Emil Sayahi (talk) 16:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this name change recognized by other nations?--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 16:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, Wikipedia did not adopt Myanmar until August 2015, more than 26 years after the name change was officially announced. Kahastok talk 21:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That seems a compelling reason for Wikipedia to avoid being behind the curve this time :-0 Stub Mandrel (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose for now Citing the precedence of WP's Burma to Myanmar move it should happen at some point but wait for UN/AU recognition (Swaziland can always be forwarded).Lihaas (talk) 23:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for reasons already stated by Stub Mandrel, Alisonjo2786 and Illexsquid. Rariteh (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. At this point we don't have any examples of reliable sources using "eSwatini" in articles not about the name change, let alone any evidence that common usage has changed. Thryduulf (talk) 23:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Wikipedia articles constantly change to become more up to date, eSwati is the up to date name for the country formerly known as Swaziland. Bobbbcat (talk) 00:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The common theme for opposition here seems to be WP:COMMONNAME, which I think is a stunningly unsuitable policy to enforce when it comes to the official names of countries. It is not up to Wikipedia or "reliable sources" (what does this even mean? Surely the government of a nation should be a reliable source on a name change for that country?) to determine what a sovereign nation gets to call itself, and Wikipedia policies are neither infallible nor always right or sensible; at least the examples cited like Czechia and Belorussia are still recognizably the same name as the nations' Anglicized/older names- Swaziland and eSwatini are not. As others have also pointed out, what is the point in being a digital encyclopedia in the information age if we can't update these articles to change with the times? What difference is there between Wiki and a printed encyclopedia that must wait years for republishing to reflect any changes? Wait for a proper decree or whatever is published, then change the name.- ක - (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Wikipedia is often frustratingly slow to pick up name changes. Who decides what's common use? People on the internet? If news articles and almanacs already will be using the new name, why not switch it now? This is an encyclopedia after all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.233.122.234 (talk) 01:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment how about considering when, and if, their TLD, .sz, is changed? (mercurywoodrose)2602:304:CFD0:6350:787F:233D:9DB0:A673 (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Wikipedia follows instead of leads. This is a very recent change, and change takes time. The government's website still refers to it as Swaziland. While I absolutely support the name change in principle, it is still too soon. I would like to see official international organisations use the name before we make a full switch, much less the government's website. Also, we do not always use the shortened official name of the country as the main page (evidenced by Ivory Coast or East Timor). SportingFlyer talk 02:31, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm personally very conservative on name changes unless they are clearly not matters of translation and this is entirely a matter of translation..."eSwatini" is Swazi for Swaziland.While Upper Volta changed its name to an entirely different name ("Burkina Faso" refers to the people,not a part of a river basin),Ivory Coast,East Timor,Burma,and now Swaziland have basically asked English-speakers not to use English,which is beyond their authority.I am more extreme than Wikiconsensus (I consider referring to Peking as "Beijing" akin to calling Naples "Napoli" or Germany "Deutschland" as English words) but I have to register a voice.Native-language names should be noted,but not defined as English-language names.12.144.5.2 (talk) 04:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Swaziland remains the common name (in English) for this country, just like Ivory Coast is the common English name for "Côte d'Ivoire". English speakers, not foreign kings, determine how nations are called in English. Also, since eSwatini translates to "land of the Swazis", it is practically synonymous with "Swaziland". —General534 (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose In line with previous objections Roger 8 Roger (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Oh gosh, if the supreme leader in Budapest grasps that, you would have to change every mention of Hungary to Magyarország because Magyars are of course not to be mistaken for Huns. --Pakeha (talk) 06:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the reasons above – I'm also slightly frustrated by how slow Wikipedia is to promulgate official changes in naming and terminology. —Nightstallion
  • Oppose suggested rename I oppose the renaming of it to simply "eSwatini" if it is to be renamed at some point then it should be renamed to "Kingdom of eSwatini" however as it stands, it is unlikely to be renamed. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 09:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose & Depose. Tiny unimportant country unlikely to have sufficient military resources to defend against a Wikipedia-led coup. Oppose name change, overthrow current government/ruling body and instill WP:DEMOCRACY to ensure current name is kept. 125.239.173.127 (talk) 10:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We use the most common English name see Cape Verde, Ivory Coast, and East Timor, They have different official names than what Wikipedia uses Abote2 (talk) 10:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. This change is simply too soon. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 10:20, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I am afraid other nations, even South Africa where I live, will take a very long time to adjust to this name. Readers will feel they are at the incorrect page. I feel changes to the infobox, which have been done already, are appropriate – however, change to the article title is too soon as Swaziland is WP:COMMONNAME. -- Waddie96 (talk) 10:26, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As of now most media still refers to it as Swaziland - see back in maybe a year, if they start calling it "ESwatini" instead. Juxlos (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait until we have enough time to assess what reliable sources do. It's fine to revisit this issue in some reasonable amount of time when we can see if reliable sources start calling it by its new name or not. It's just too early to tell. --Jayron32 10:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Jumping the gun with the name change

Someone has gone and replaced all instances of "Swaziland" in the article with the new official name "eSwatini". I think this is considerably too soon and I'm requesting someone to reverse this change. It can be reapplied once the name becomes the common name (WP:COMMONNAME). SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. –Davey2010Talk 18:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have you eliminated *all* references to eSwatini? It probably needs one bold reference near the beginning. EuroAgurbash (talk) 18:22, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Something like, "officially the kingdom of eSwatini or something to that effect. ThirdDolphin (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to reverse the change myself now by using an older revision and to add a compromise into the top section. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I attempted to reverse the change as well. Now it's back to normal in mostly saying Swaziland, but mentioning this new alternate name in the lead for now. Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:31, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify my revert of this: it also changed the mentions of the name actually being changed as well as the new official name (both in English and Swati) and such, which is I believe it was a net negative. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A problem now seems to be editors oblivious to the conversation held here - if this keeps happening, the page might need some form of protection. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Surjection:: Shoot, sorry about messing it up. My bad. Just trying to reverse the "replace all Swaziland with eSwatini" change. (Like, unless this discussion reaches a consensus to change everything to "eSwatini", it might not be best to have everything say eSwatini. For now, it's an alternate name that it's not commonly known by yet. Like, the North Korea article uses "North Korea" a lot instead of "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" everywhere.) Paintspot Infez (talk) 18:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Paintspot:: Yeah, but KCNA uses both “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” and “North Korea”. Rariteh (talk) 23:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I read KCNA fairly regularly and I don't think I've ever seen them call themselves "North Korea". Maybe very rarely in certain contexts. But they usually say "DPRK", and sometimes just "Korea". They actually don't like the name "North Korea" and they don't encourage it because they don't recognize the division of the country as legitimate and don't want to encourage the idea that Korea is two countries. Kawada Kira (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have now requested page protection via WP:RFP. I cannot keep reverting further. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 19:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, this revision has the country names mostly correct according to the current consensus - eSwatini should only appear in official names, mentions of the name change and the top section (but nowhere else, such as the common_name on the country infobox). SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 19:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the article should start with the new name until, and only if, the article name is moved. I think it's just wholly inconsistent the way it looks now. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • information Administrator note I have semi-protected the article for 1 week; please continue discussing the name change here. I've also removed the {{update}} maintenance tag because I felt it might mislead users inclined to changing the name throughout the article into doing so. Mz7 (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At what point does the name change become 'official' the King's decree is on the official Swaziland Government website [[1]] [[2]]. May I strongly suggest that once the website has changed the name, Wikipedia should follow suit. Also the direct link to the King's speech should take precedence over the BBC report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stub Mandrel (talk • contribs) 22:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the difference in this case is even I am not sure how to pronounce the new name. Related to that, there should be an IPA in English and Swazi in the lede.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 23:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The name change became "official" immediately upon the King's decree. Swaziland's own name for itself is now "Kingdom of eSwatini". However, you seem to be confusing "official name" with "name of the Wikipedia page". These are not the same thing. It is conceivable that the official name will become commonly used in English in just a few months, and the page would then be moved. It is also conceivable that the name change may never become common in English usage, and the page would then not be moved. --Khajidha (talk) 14:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The example of North Korea is misleading, the DPRK is the official long name not the short hand, it would be comparable to the Kingdom of eSwatini rather than eSwatini. I fail to see how it is too soon to change the name given the decree has already been made by the absolute monarch of said country. 2A02:C7F:7212:4400:D253:49FF:FE99:A4E7 (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan is a better example than North Korea. Official name is Republic of China, but most people refer to it as Taiwan since it's shorter. Indeed, that's the name Wikipedia refers to it as. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 01:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about the example of Greece? The name of the article should reflect how the country is referred to in English language and the English language doesn't change by a decision of a monarch. Džuris (talk) 09:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Greece is not a good example as they all hate being called Greece instead of Hellas. Seriously, as a Greek, it does reaaallllyyyy annoy us immensely. It shouldnt change by a decision of a monarch, but if the people you label as such, you should deem it common courtesy to honor their request. It is their historical name, and the British called it Swaziland due to the decision of the monarch at the time.. so your answer is hypocritical and I disagree completely, Džuris. Κοματσουλάκης (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

eSwatini or Eswatini?

In Germanic languages, capital letters are not used in the centre of words. Should the new name be written Eswatini rather than eSwatini? I believe it should. DG (talk) 11:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The word itself is in the Swazi language and is the official name for the country, the correct format is eSwatini while those outside of the country will likely continue to refer to it as Swaziland so there's no need for the change. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 11:34, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree here. Should the name "eSwatini" become official and the common name, we'll see how the capitalization holds. I think there will be an inevitable shift to "Eswatini" in usage from the original "eSwatini". Botswana is a precedent, from a prefix Bo- + Tswana, as is Lesotho. Dreigorich (talk) 11:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Botswana is different because Setswana has a different capitalization scheme. They don't capitalize in the middle of words, so you have Motswana/Batswana/Setswana/Botswana. But siSwati has a different capitalization scheme, so you get umSwati/emaSwati/siSwati/eSwatini. For a precedent, look KwaZulu-Natal, which keeps the capitalization in the middle of the word. Also the Zulu language is occasionally written isiZulu in English. Smashhoof2 (talk) 00:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is not true at all. English is a germanic language and we have names like McDonalds McRobert etc I know hundreds of people with names that have capital letters in the middle of them (although i know they probably originate from Gaelic languages originally)

We also have things like iPad and iPhone. Sure, those are brand names, but I haven't seen much tendency to render them as Iphone and Ipad for Germanic language reasons.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
M(a)c- is a Celtic prefix connected to a term for "ancestor" and it still starts with a capital latter itself. Also I have rarely seen a lack of a subsequent capital, there are some "Macdonalds"for instance. If "Eswatini" becomes common Anglicized usage then that is perfectly acceptable.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 14:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Botswana and Lesotho aren't comparable: Sotho and Tswana capitalisation conventions are different from those of the Nguni languages, like Swati. And the South African province of KwaZulu-Natal (and before that the Bantustan of KwaZulu) provide precedent for a 'non-standard' capitalisation being accepted in English for what is, after all, a loan word. 105.8.5.41 (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While there should not be any issue with countries changing their names according to their preference (its their sovereign right to do so), there should be concerns when these names - usually a transliteration of the traditional or local name of the country - require breaking the basic rules of the English language, when the name is to appear in an English language article. I believe one basic rule of English is that the spelling of proper nouns - which the names of countries are (I don't think they should be comparable to brand names like "iPad", or maybe they should?) - must begin with the upper case. Hence, the spelling "eSwatini", which is correct in Siswati, is deemed not correct IN ENGLISH. Bending of the rules of English to allow words from non-English languages which use the Latin alphabet to be rendered in their original spelling or spelling rules may seem harmless but this opens up to the situation where non-English spelling rules, some which are in conflict with English, start being introduced. Côte d'Ivoire is a good example where "ô" is not a letter in the English Latin alphabet and there is no "d'I" in English spelling. If Hungary decides that the world needs to refer to it as Magyarország only, do we bring "á" into the English language? If adopting "ô" or "á" is OK, which essentially is introducing letters of another alphabet into the English language, then why just stop there and not go further to adopt the Icelandic "Þ"? Or letters of the Greek Alphabet? Or even Arabic or Chinese characters? I have no problem if one day China insisted that it be called Zhongguo or Chungkuo in its English form, but if you force me to render your name as 中国 in all documents irrespective of language, I don't think that wound be accepted. Knowing how to read and pronounce letters or characters of another alphabet is commendable and should be encouraged, but they should not be forced into the English language. So, it should be Eswatini in English, and eSwatini in Siswati (name in the English context).Slleong (talk) 06:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe one basic rule of English is that the spelling of proper nouns [...] must begin with the upper case. Hence, the spelling "eSwatini", which is correct in Siswati, is deemed not correct IN ENGLISH.

Tried this argument on the talk pages of, say, Leonardo da Vinci or Rio de Janeiro? English (but specifically: the English-language Wikipedia) imports common foreign names with their native capitalization. (For that matter, importation isn't necessary: we preserve uncapitalized double-f in English names like Baron ffrench and ffolkes baronets.) There's no reason to recapitalize eSwatini when we leave these other spellings unaltered. --Heath 184.170.76.239 (talk) 13:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting. Thanks for pointing out Baron ffrench and ffolkes baronets as I never learnt those in school. And indeed we accept "da Vinci" in this form when referring to Leonardo's family name, and use the lover case when using Romance language words. I guess the main takeaway from this is that we will always have exceptions to established rules or conventions. The question would then be when do we allow exceptions which bend rules and conventions, and how far do we go with the exceptions - only for Latin alphabet languages? Including all the "non-English" letters of the Latin alphabet? Slleong (talk) 05:00, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It should be Eswatini. See the legal notice [4][5].--QBear (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite the portion of that legal notice that has any force over anyone outside of the country itself or not bound by diplomatic protocol. --Khajidha (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I mean the official name should be Eswatini instead of eSwatini which was reported by some media. I agree that "Swaziland" is still the common name.--QBear (talk) 15:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"eSwatini" and variations in Swazilander English dialect?

Here is a point to pay attention to perhaps as time moves along considering the name of this Kingdom: Considering that English is a co-official language of this nation as is with South Africa, Botswana, etc.in this region of former British influence, should we see if "eSwatini"takes particular precedence over "Swaziland" in the dialect of the country and that region of Southern Africa in general? I am not familiar with the English of Swazilanders (and only know a little of South African English), but maybe this is also worth taking note of. Maybe there is no difference or a total shift, or maybe it shouldn't be considered? What do you think?-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 14:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is Swaziland still the most common name for this country??

This article is still titled Swaziland, meaning that this must still be the most common name for the country. What's wrong here?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing. The announcement was just made. There is no way thay references to the country (not just the name change) are using eSwatini yet. --Khajidha (talk) 15:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, Wikipedia is supposed to use the most common name even if dated?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I mean that right now the only usage of "eSwatini" is stories saying "Swaziland is now eSwatini". No one is wrotimg about elections in eSwatini. Or earthquakes in eSwatini. Or construction projects in eSwatini. When the proponderance of sources switch we will switch. --Khajidha (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We don't know if the name is dated until we see which name is in common usage. Give it time; this is not the sort of knowledge we can accumulate instantaneously; we need to see how reliable sources handle this information, and our usage will reflect theirs. --Jayron32 18:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes!! Most English speakers (outside of Swaziland and South Africa) still use "Swaziland" Just because the Swazi government made this change official, does not mean the the term "Swaziland" has gone out of common usage in the English language. I will remind all of our editors here of the following Wikipedia policy, which is quite clear on these matters: WP:COMMONNAME - Wiz9999 (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

help

Please move Swaziland to eSwatini the name of the country has now changed.

http://time.com/5247743/swaziland-king-renames-country-eswatini/ https://news.sky.com/story/king-of-swaziland-changes-his-countrys-name-to-eswatini-11338333 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-43821512

This has been discussed above, and persuant to Wikipedia guidelines, it is generally agreed that we follow common usage, so when the rest of the world starts using this name in regular usage, we will too. --Jayron32 18:04, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is new name oficially confirmed?

Is any official confirmation of this new name? Media reported about it, but change of country name is to serious matter to rely only on the media. The name of "Kingdom of Swaziland" is listed in the country constitution, and no official information that constitution has been amended. Moreover, government website still uses name "Kingdom of Swaziland". Aotearoa (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When it comes to government sources in sub-Saharan Africa, I would refer back to the debate over the "The" in "Republic of The Gambia" after the last President fled and whether it should be capitalized or not. It took a while to update IIRC because these kinds of countries can't handle an efficient bureaucracy for revising everything. It's low priority even for a name change. King Mswati III is the face and final word of the Executive branch and his dictum becomes law when he speaks it in a sense.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 20:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd wait to see what happens at, e.g. the UN or official reputable English-language sources to see how they handle the change to see if the country becomes "Eswatini", "ESwatini" or "eSwatini", remains "Swaziland", or if there is dispute between all four names in the sources (particularly with Swaziland versus the other forms of the new name). Dreigorich (talk) 20:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, King Mswati III is the face and final word for everything in the country, but even in Swaziland kings orders/decisions/acts/... have to be published. To the moment we have only media information and no any official confirmation. Moreover without any official document we don't know the correct spelling of new name – media said "eSwatini" but on which evidence if no "paper" decision? I think Wikipedia is to hurry and made changes without strong sources (few months ago Wikipedia created a new country on the base of media information/speculation only) – it is better to wait few days/weeks than to change information to potentially incorrect one. Aotearoa (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, the website is http://www.gov.sz/ Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The banner with the whole name is a .jpg instead of HTML for the title....a redesign may slow down the update.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 22:26, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The government website mentioned above by Andy is using eSwatini, I'd consider this official confirmation of the new name. Kges1901 (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wow it seems it was updated just today in whole, that's a good development. I'd like to see this spread as evidence.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 18:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This name has been discussed for several years [6] and NatGeo has recognized the change [7] Legacypac (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to wait at least a month (and probably 3-6 months) before another RM. It needs to be clear what the standard capitalization is from usage by newspapers, the UN, other governments, etc.; if it isn't, there's no reason to do the move. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:10, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that Swaziland has made similar change like in India (states, cities) – ie. adopted local name as English one without change of this local name. The country name in Swazi has been eSwatini (short form) and Umbuso weSwatini (long/official form) and this name is still binding. Aotearoa (talk) 06:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of eSwatini

The article currently transcribes eSwatini as /ɛˈswɑːtɪni/, but this seems a bit wrong. The Swazi pronunciation is [ɛswatʼiːni], so I think it is best adapted to English as /ɛswɑːˈtiːni/ or /eɪswɑːˈtiːni/. However, this word does not have an established pronunciation in English yet, so it may be best not to transcribe it. Smashhoof2 (talk) 01:00, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Swazi pronunciation should definitely be included. As for English, in this case standard Anglicized stress should apply since most people who come to page will probably be looking for at least a basic idea of how to even say the name. The initial "e" phoneme is a problem though....maybe we shouldn't include it but who knows.-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 01:34, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is the English wiki. The Swazi version is not relevant here. Except as local name. --Wester (talk) 15:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes obviously but see nearly every other country page on this site. For instance Germany includes the IPA transcription for Bundesrepublik Deutschland....-Sıgehelmus (Talk) ω 16:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ritual fetishes

What exactly are these ritual fetishes in the lead section and what does it mean to be their keeper? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:9289:6531:6f9b:9eae:3de4:cdfb (talk • contribs) 10:14, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Symbolic objects relevant to the country, I take it, like Britain's crown jewels.59.124.5.22 (talk) 07:20, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2018

Hi I would want to change this to eSwatini Adi7842 (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Per WP:COMMONNAME we are to use names that are in common use in English language media and sources, and eSwatini does not meet that criterion. It would also require a formal discussion since a move is likely to be contested because of WP:COMMONNAME. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Changing "Kingdom of eSwatini" to "Kingdom of Eswatini"

@Slleong, DG, ChieftanTartarus, Dreigorich, Smashhoof2, Amakuru, Sigehelmus, Khajidha, and Paintspot:

The official name of the country should be "Kingdom of Eswatini" Here are the references:

  1. Legal Notice No.80 of 2018 published in the Swaziland Government Gazette on May 18[8][9].
  2. Swaziland govenment website [10] (Copyright © 2018. Eswatini Government.)
  3. "Country Names May 2018" published by the UK government[11]
  4. "Independent States in the World" published by the U.S Department of State on May 30.[12]

Any comments?--QBear (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is just about changing the official name listed in this article from eSwatini to Eswatini, correct? It has nothing to do with the actual page name or usage in running prose, correct? I have no objection to that. --Khajidha (talk) 15:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, just the "official full name". I changed that few days ago, but User:Paintspot reverted it and told me to get some sort of consensus. This should also apply to the name in List of sovereign states.--QBear (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting find. So apparently my hypothesis was correct! Dreigorich (talk) 17:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We'll have to see if other sources follow suit as well, though.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The "official full name" or "formal name" should only depend on the country itself. Since Swaziland did not published the official document until May 18, about a month after the King's announcement. It was understandable that why some source used "eSwatini". But I think it is clear that which one is "official" now.--QBear (talk) 01:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This might be a wild theory but "Eswantini" isn't just an unfortunate case of auto-capitialisation when typing into a computer or device, is it? doktorb wordsdeeds 05:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No Comment, not interested in this topic, it's not like the code for these pages is case sensitive, so why should we be? This obsession with grammar is stale. Also iPod, is no different to how eSwatini is capitalised, just saying. Search Bicapitalization if you're interested further. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"The obsession with grammar is stale," is not a statement I agree with, though this is a discussion for another place. doktorb wordsdeeds 07:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The World Factbook by CIA [13] and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Taiwan [14][15] are also using "Kingdom of Eswatini". Therefore I don't think these are just "auto-capitialisation" errors.--QBear (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Help request

Country has officially changed its name to Eswatini. Please move the main title to Eswatini.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/latestnews/Swaziland_officially_changes_name_to_Eswatini_advises_foreign_affairs_ministry

http://www.africanews.com/2018/05/19/swaziland-name-change-to-eswatini-is-now-official/

http://menafn.com/1097000949/Swaziland-Officially-Changes-Name-To-Eswatini

Please see the move request and the edit request above. An RFC will be required to establish an exception to WP:COMMONNAME. Yunshui 雲水 10:27, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was indifferent before, but the United Nations Statistics Division now recognizes this name change and now lists "Swaziland" as "Eswatini" Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 04:23, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 07:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swaziland → Eswatini – See above. UN has confirmed the name change. 135.23.145.49 (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion

Any additional comments:
  • Comment I've noticed that many of the recent OPPOSE votes mention that they need more secondary sources to use the name first, but I would like to add that it's now a very, very easy task to find many sources referring to the country as eSwatini even when not talking about the name change event. Searching "Eswatini" once returned the following stories whose titles or bodies use the new name:
  • I got all of these just by searching the term "Eswatini" on DuckDuckGo and looking at news. I can't say with certainty if the COMMONNAME has changed because Swaziland is still used too, but I'd say you can argue that the term "Swaziland" is losing its status as the COMMONNAME. "Eswatini"/"eSwatini" is evidently being used everywhere from major publications to minor publications, international outlets to local outlets in other countries, whether the story is about Eswatini/Swaziland or a different place/person/thing, and even government websites of other countries. Take this argument with a grain of salt because it's difficult to find data on which name is the most commonly used, but the UN accepting the change was enough to sway me on this. It's not just the UN, but also the CIA World Factbook and the UK government - which I'd argue hold a lot of weight as sources - but as I've shown there's even outlets of all sizes now using the new name, and WP:NAMECHANGES say "When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced." Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 20:58, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
... and if you had made a search on Swaziland you would have gotten even more results, since Swaziland still outnumbers eSwatini/Eswatini by a factor of at least 20:1, counting only the last few weeks. Being given extra weight only means that if the usage is even between an old name and a new name we should consider using the new name, it does not mean that we can do a search on the new name only, and point to those results, while conveniently forgetting to do a search on the old name too. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I mentioned that I still found results for Swaziland, but I did not see a factor of "20:1" more results. I found less twenty (a total of exactly 18) Swaziland results total unless I went back at least 57 days, so the claim that there's twenty times as many results for Swaziland is just wrong. That's hyperbolic enough that it's not an honest argument. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:17, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually a lot more than a factor of 20:1. An "advanced search" on Google limited to pages in English published during the past 30 days returned 18.9 million pages using Swaziland but only 16,400 pages using eSwatini or Eswatini, or a factor of 1,152:1. And even the official website of the government of Swaziland still use the old name... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because you mentioned that, I thought I'd try it myself.
Advanced search with the following parameters:
  • all these words: Swaziland
  • none of these words: Eswatini
  • last update: Last month
  • terms appearing: Text of the page
  • Note that this method is inclusive to results that would not be relevant on the encyclopedia, not just news stories, including any website updated in any way as long as the word "Swaziland" is somewhere in it.
15 pages of results for Swaziland. 9 pages of results for ESwatini. Swaziland produced more results, but not by a ratio of 152:1, 20:1 or even 2:1.
I also went to the government website gov.sz and you can see it displays in all caps "SWAZILAND NOW PROUDLY ESWATINI" on item 5. It also says "Copyright © 2018. Eswatini Government." on the bottom, and it refers to the country only as "Eswatini" on item 2. Even the outdated (it displays today's date on all pages) "About Us" page you linked to which used the word Swaziland actually said "Eswatini Government" on the bottom of the page. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:01, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]


As for the official website, did you click on the link I provided in my post? It's a page where the government of Swaziland describe what their country is, its constitution and so on, using Swaziland every time. And there's no way you could have gotten just 15 pages for Swaziland if you searched for all pages published in English worldwide during the past 30 days (heck, even my local news site has used Swaziland more than 15 times during the past month...), so do it again, but do it right this time... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 23:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to check what I said again. The "About Us" page was outdated (they display today's date on all pages) and **even on that page** it said "Eswatini Government" on the bottom of the page. As for your other argument, you can replicate what I did exactly. 15 and 9 pages of results. I didn't filter by English, but realistically I should have because this affects the English name of the country. If you dismissively say "do it again but do it right" without providing anything else then I can reasonably dismiss that request the same way you dismissed what I said. I told you exactly what I did. Realistically, the amount of times that Swaziland/Eswatini gets referenced in 30 days shouldn't be in the tens of millions unless you're not filtering out any of the irrelevant junk or restricting it to pages that actually use the desired term within the text. When you say "even my local news outlet used Swaziland more than 15 times in the last month" if you're referring to 15 separate individual stories published by your local news outlet then I'd be very surprised unless you live near Swaziland/Eswatini, but if you mean to count every single time they use the word rather than the number of individual publications that use the word then that's highly problematic. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Ultimately, the issue is who gets to determine what a country is called, or in this context specifically, what a country is to be called in the English language. I would think firstly, the country itself will have the sovereign right to do so. Secondly, it would also be the country's right to determine if an old "common" name should not to be used anymore, for whatever reason (change of government eg Zaire to DR Congo; reflecting territorial change eg Malaya to Malaysia, USSR to Russian Federation; erasing a colonial label eg Bechuanaland to Botswana). This active declaration in itself - and it shouldn't matter if it is done during independence or 50 years after - should trigger a switch in common usage and this is recognised in WP:NAMECHANGES which says: "When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced." This is different from cases such as Thailand which has not made any attempts to get the world to start calling it "Prathet Thai", Germany to be called "Deutschland" or even China to be called "Zhongguo" in English, and hence, the common English usage remains "common" and acceptable worldwide and also in the countries themselves.Slleong (talk) 02:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"I would think firstly, the country itself will have the sovereign right to do so." Why? I would think that the people speaking of that country would have that right, just as they have the right to determine the names used for anything else they are speaking of. --Khajidha (talk) 12:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, "extra weight" doesn't mean "ignore all uses of the old name". I know Google searches aren't the be-all-and-end-all, but when news searches for Swaziland yield 7.6 million plus hits and for Eswatini yield 62500 results I don't think you can justify enough "extra weight" to enforce the change. --Khajidha (talk) 12:22, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. A country having to put up with what other people insist on calling it - especially when it was a label that was given not by the people of the country themselves and despite declaring that it doesn't want to be known that way anymore (and this is the main trigger) - smacks of imperialist and colonialist overtones. So just when does a new name become "acceptable" to the majority of the world? I believe the transformation from Malaya to Malaysia and its acceptance was overnight, only thing, there wasn't Wikipedia at that time. And of course Google searches of Swaziland will show up more results than Eswatini, since the former name has been around for 100 years. I guess if I needed to know the actual name of a country, I will have to look elsewhere because in Wikipedia, it may depict what people who are not from that country think that country should be known as. Slleong (talk) 03:59, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And I find the assertion that the English language must use a Swazi word to smack of arrogance. I particularly find this situation to be ridiculous because "Swaziland" and "Eswatini" both mean "land of the Swazis". It's as silly as saying that English must start calling the color "red" by the French word "rouge". --Khajidha (talk) 13:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a relevant analogy because red is not a concept tied to a particular country, or to the French language. And in fact we do say "Khmer Rouge" rather than "Red Khmers". But the key point with Khmer Rouge or Swaziland or Myanmar or anywhere else, is what do reliable English sources say. That's what matters, not whether anyone's being arrogant or our personal opinions. I think it's still Swaziland but that could change in time, much as Myanmar did.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You'll notice that my objection is only to the proposed forcing of usage ("should change", "needs to change", and "must change" are phrasings used by those who advocate thus), not to actual usage. Some non-English place names are fully accepted (Costa Rica), some are partially translated (Cape Verde), and some are fully translated (Ivory Coast). The important point is that the English language name is decided by weight of usage, not decree. My point in that analogy is that country names are words like any other words. --Khajidha (talk) 15:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia goes by what people are calling things, not by declarations of what people should be calling them. There's no "putting up with" here other than, perhaps putting up with Wikipedia's striving to represent actual predominant usage. If you want to argue with the people who are calling it "Swaziland", argue with them. If you want to argue against Wikipedia's general guidelines regarding naming, in favor of replacing the current descriptive approach with a prescriptive approach, argue it at the pertinent guideline page. But please understand that the point of having site-wide guidelines is so there will be uniformity, and so people don't waste time and space having the same arguments over general practice on the talk page of every article to which the practice applies. Largoplazo (talk) 14:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bechuanaland to Botswana, Basutoland to Lesotho, New Hebrides to Vanuatu, Gilbert Islands to Kiribati - the transformations are inevitable, not because the names became popular but the fact that those countries declared that they will henceforth be know by those names. Country names are not mere nouns but proper nouns, created for a reason to assert an identity. Indeed a spade should be called a spade, but a country's identity is very different from that of a spade, no? The dynamism of Wikipedia could have aided in this change, instead of fossilising something that the owner has discarded. But of course this goes to the crux of the common usage guidelines, and should be taken up in the common usage guideline discussion page. Space and time should not be wasted any further here. But what was said above was just a natural extension to the discussion to the Swaziland -> Eswatini change.Slleong (talk) 02:10, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1) In all the examples you gave the name changed because the place changed. Bechuanaland and Botswana are not two names for the same thing, they are two things that have existed in sequence.
2) "a country's identity is very different from that of a spade, no?" No. --Khajidha (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:NAMECHANGES

I just want to mention that the policy just below WP:COMMONNAME is the aforementioned in title "WP:NAMECHANGES". As rationale for the application of the latter policy, I feel like the situation of the Swazi people should be given the same dignity as any one individual. Further, going by historical consensus on Myanmar (formerly Burma), I believe that there is indeed room to bypass COMMONNAME as a policy.

To speak more generally on the discussion so far: policies are not set in stone, merely indicating tradition in common circumstances; eSwatini or Eswatini, I believe the situation is sufficiently different to warrant a more critical analysis than simply dumping past precedent in support of the status quo. Anyway, thanks in advance for any constructive criticism; for now I rest my case. -Techhead7890 (talk) 14:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ps: If you need to get in touch I suggest my talk as I am not watching this page. 14:14, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Note that the Myanmar government adopted Myanmar long before Wikipedia was founded, but our article was nonetheless Burma until about 2012, when consensus was reached that the WP:COMMONNAME had changed. As above, there is consensus against moving this page at this time. Kahastok talk 21:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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