Talk:Donald Trump

Current consensus

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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

Fascism

There, I said it.

Everyone knows Trump has always used incendiary rhetoric, which many have observed that in some cases comes real close to fascist-speak. Until recently, reliable sources have apparently determined the rhetoric does not quite cross the line for them to report it as such. But this has changed in recent weeks as Trump has sharply escalated his rhetoric, such that multiple reliable sources have now explicitly reported his rhetoric echoes that of fascists such as Mussolini and Hitler. And now significant reporting has emerged about plans he and his allies are making for a second term. This NYT lede alone is particularly stunning in drawing historical parallels to fascism:

Former President Donald J. Trump is planning an extreme expansion of his first-term crackdown on immigration if he returns to power in 2025 — including preparing to round up undocumented people already in the United States on a vast scale and detain them in sprawling camps while they wait to be expelled.[1]

And there's a lot more than that. I believe the sourcing is now sufficiently DUE for this to be mentioned in the BLP and not merely relegated exclusively to his 2024 campaign article.[2] soibangla (talk) 23:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

There continues to be an overriding NPOV fail on this page in its presumption that Trump was a successful businessman and a patriotic politician. These are not thecurrent views of the best RS. SPECIFICO talk 00:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggest this be discussed to elicit compelling reason why I should not restore this edit[3]:

In the fall of 2023, Trump drew criticism for stating undocumented immigrants were "poisoning the blood of our country" and characterizing his political opponents as "vermin." The statements echoed dehumanizing rhetoric of white supremacists and fascist dictators such as Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler. Trump campaign spokesman Steven Cheung sought to downplay the significance of the remarks, saying of critics that "their sad, miserable existence will be crushed when President Trump returns to the White House."

soibangla (talk) 07:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

(The better term is "Nazi rhetoric", and I used it at Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign.) "In the fall of 2023" is still a year away from the election, WP:NOTNEWS. What’s the enduring notability of Trump and his spokesman/campaign spokesman’s unfiltered speeches, and do we want to turn this article or the 2024 campaign article into a platform for every outrageous thing Trump/his campaign utters until the 2024 election? He’s now playing high school auditoriums with a capacity of a few hundred, not convention centers. He’ll repeat the material his rally attendees love, and he’ll say anything that will get him headlines in the "fake news" — it’s going to be a long year. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 11:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

This should be reinstated but in a very summarised trimmed way, just mentioning "vermin" and "crushed" and that it's Nazi rhetoric. It bears mention but it's little more than a way to get attention, and we shouldn't focus on that at the expense of covering his overtly authoritarian 2024 plans (Agenda 47, Project 2025; deploying the military against civilians and replacing the executive branch with loyalists). We could do all this in fewer words than what's being proposed for reinstatement. DFlhb (talk) 11:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

"Nazi rhetoric" seems unduly inflammatory and less on point than "fascist rhetoric" - the cited sources do make the connection with Nazi wording - our users can see that from the cited sources - but "Nazi rhetoric" gets close to the kind of labeling that we try to avoid and that is likely to alienate readers without giving broader context. SPECIFICO talk 14:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree that avoiding the word Nazi is the better part of valor. Mentioning Hitler and Mussolini is also problematic, no matter how accurate. Just mentioning Mussolini I think works better. Fascists of the mid-20th century is another option. Has to be some way of saying Nazi without using the word. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that's better - DFlhb (talk) 15:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Depends if the RSs are saying it, in which case, why shouldn't we (with attribution)? Yr Enw (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"poisoning the blood of our country" The statement reflects Nativism in United States politics, which has centuries of history in that xenophobic country. The main article cites xenophobic texts and policies by the politicians Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton in the 18th century as the foundations of American nativism. Dimadick (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

It`s text book Know Nothing politics Anonymous8206 (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I don't like about the first suggested edit is the way it leads with "drew criticism for" rather than going straight into what he said and afterwards saying it was criticized. Sennalen (talk) 06:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

can we move toward a consensus on phrasing and inclusion? here's another source: "Trump's Dire Words Raise New Fears About His Authoritarian Bent". The New York Times. November 20, 2023.

Recommend the proposed paragraph be placed in the his 2024 campaign page. If he becomes US president on January 20, 2025 & then implements or attempts to implement such policies? then we could add the paragraph here. GoodDay (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Trump currently presents these totalitarian, xenophobic narratives and the agenda of converting the US government to his personal instrument of retribution against whomever he chooses. It is his personal core. It is extensively sourced and discussed in secondary and tertiary RS. It should be prominently placed in this page. The question is whether the proposed wording should be inserted or whether it can first be improved. SPECIFICO talk 21:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The US Constitution is the law of the land, not the president. GoodDay (talk) 21:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

That is unintelligible. Please read recent references and comment on the arguments in this thread. SPECIFICO talk 01:38, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I already have read them. Again, the proposed paragraph belongs in the Trump's 2024 prez campaign page, not here. GoodDay (talk) 02:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

This relates to the man. We don't need to wait for a second presidency to include significant well-souurced content about the man that is known now. soibangla (talk) 21:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. This relates to a potential second term in the White House, for Trump. GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's say this is about anyone but Trump. Would you agree that with the extensive reliable sourcing here that this rhetoric would and should be included in anyone else's BLP? soibangla (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

If this was about (for example) Joe Biden? I would recommend such a paragraph be added to Biden's 2024 campaign page, not Biden's bio page. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Even if the person has a long history of highly incendiary rhetoric that multiple reliable sources now explicitly report has crossed into the realm of fascism, regardless of his presidential candidacy? soibangla (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

His promises/proposals belong in his 2024 campaign page & again, what he believes he can do & what he can actually do, are different things. GoodDay (talk) 22:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

"poisoning the blood of our country" and "vermin" are not campaign promises/proposals, they are dehumanizing rhetoric that are classic tells of fascism, as multiple reliable sources have reported. soibangla (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, the statements belong in his 2024 campaign page. I think we few have given our input on this. So, it's best to allow others to give their input, as a circular discussion, just goes... in circles. GoodDay (talk) 23:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Why not both? Sennalen (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

GoodDay, that objection is basically the same as the false and failed claims of the American right that claims Trump's incitements, coded calls to calumny, and extra-constitutional aspirations are just good ol' American Free Speech. Those claims are widespread, from Trump to his rotating set of defense attorneys to the far-right social media. So it is not merely about what might occur in the future. There have been multiple arrests for attacks, planned attacks and other crimes incited by Trump's rhetoric after he was no longer president. See Attack on Paul Pelosi. SPECIFICO talk 16:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

My position hasn't changed, concerning whether the proposed paragraph should be added to this BLP or not. However, I foresee this discussion devolving into unpleasant areas. Therefore, I'm going to stand aside & allow the content dispute to continue forward, by others. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

How does it not relate to the present time ? it needs to be in the article Anonymous8206 (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

soibangla, the NYT lede fails rs, per WP:NEWSORG. It's hyperbole. It's not what fascism experts say. TFD (talk) 03:23, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

did you take a deep dive into the first NYT article, it's a major article, and dive into the second NYT article I've cited here to see remarks by people such as Ruth Ben-Ghiat and Jennifer Mercieca? have you googled Trump fascist rhetoric? soibangla (talk) 04:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)::How does it not relate to the present time ? it needs to be in the article Anonymous8206 (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Jon Meacham: "To call your opponent 'vermin,' to dehumanize them, is to not only open the door but to walk through the door toward the most ghastly kinds of crimes."[4]

Michael Beschloss: "Please tell us if this reminds you of any earlier historical figure."[5]

Jason Stanley, author of How Fascism Works: "It doesn't echo 'Mein Kampf.' This is textbook 'Mein Kampf' ... Trump's comments are remarkably evocative particularly of Hitler's rants against Marxists and socialists -- Hitler also decried pro-democratic forces as Marxist ... [Hitler] took it that Jews were behind the international left, Marxism, communism, but his real target was democracy. This overbroad use of Marxism to target basically any political opponent, this is familiar from fascism and the way you attack democracy. And of course labeling your political opponents vermin, yeah, I mean the Nazis targeted their political opponents, they targeted them for incarceration and concentration camps."[6][7]

Ruth Ben-Ghiat: "There are echoes of fascist rhetoric, and they’re very precise. The overall strategy is an obvious one of dehumanizing people so that the public will not have as much of an outcry at the things that you want to do ... calling people 'vermin' was used effectively by Hitler and Mussolini to dehumanize people and encourage their followers to engage in violence ... Trump is also using projection: note that he mentions all kinds of authoritarians 'communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical left' to set himself up as the deliverer of freedom. Mussolini promised freedom to his people too and then declared dictatorship."[8][9] soibangla (talk) 04:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Jennifer Mercieca: "He describes a world of threats and a nation that is humiliated - he claims that there is danger everywhere and he's the only one who can provide safety - he claims that his opposition are enemies who cheat. Those are the classic arguments of fascism."[10] soibangla (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Timothy Naftali: "The language is the language that dictators use to instill fear. When you dehumanize an opponent, you strip them of their constitutional rights to participate securely in a democracy because you’re saying they’re not human. That’s what dictators do."[11]

Public Religion Research Institute: "What we have witnessed from Trump over the last few weeks is something new," said Robert Jones, founder of the Public Religion Research Institute, or PRRI. "Trump has clearly crossed into the domain of Nazi ideology openly."[12]

Brian Klaas: "I study the breakdown of democracy, and I don’t know how to say this more clearly: We are sleepwalking towards authoritarianism, and people are not waking up to this."[13]

Stephen Miller: "Any activists who doubt President Trump's resolve in the slightest are making a drastic error: Trump will unleash the vast arsenal of federal powers to implement the most spectacular migration crackdown. The immigration legal activists won't know what's happening."[14]

"How Trump's rhetoric compares with Hitler's". The Washington Post. November 13, 2023. soibangla (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Fascism is the subject of extensive academic study. Tens of thousands of books and academic papers have been written about it. People write PhD papers about fascism, become professors, write academic papers and books. The academic community then decides which views are most credible and which scholars are most authoritative. IOW it's a real academic area of study, no different from any other.

Some of the people you mention are noted fascism scholars and none of your sources was published in an article or book in the academic press.

Jennifer Mercieca is a scholar of rhetoric. Jacob Urowsky is a professor of philosophy whose book was published by Random House, which is not an academic publisher.

See Is Trump a fascist? 8 experts weigh in (Dylan Matthews, Vox Oct 23, 2020). It says, "Call him a kleptocrat, an oligarch, a xenophobe, a racist, even an authoritarian. But he doesn’t quite fit the definition of a fascist."

The experts include Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton, Stanley Payne, who are among the top ten if not the top five fascism scholars.

Also, note that the article mentions Jason Stanley and Ruth Ben-Ghiat, whom you quote in support of your thesis. But note the article says they have both said Trump is not a fascist.

You need to show us a textbook that says there is consensus among fascism scholars that Trump is a fascist. In the meantime you are doing what climate change deniers do. They present non-significant scientists, editorials and distortions of expert sources to support a predetermined conclusion. TFD (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I have noted over the years that in certain instances you insist on academic research papers to substantiate content, when that is rarely the norm of what we do here. Rather, we overwhelmingly rely on contemporaneous reliable sources. And what we have here is subject matter experts quoted in reliable sources, right here and now. Moreover, this is not a matter of whether Trump is a fascist, but rather whether his rhetoric reflects that of fascists. soibangla (talk) 05:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

BTW, Robert Paxton whom you cite in 2021 wrote an op-ed for Newsweek in which he stated that he now believed Donald Trump was a fascist, after insisting for several years that he was instead a right-wing populist soibangla (talk) 05:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

What part of this article meets that textbook standard? ~None. SPECIFICO talk 09:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Different types of sources are required for different types of claims. Rather than recite them all, let me point to the common sense approach to this. Articles should only refer to people as fascists if that is the academic consensus. The best way to determine this is to consult textbooks, but articles that poll leading experts such as the Vox article or the earlier one for History can be useful.

Note that I am not recommending that the Vox article be used as a source. I am merely citing it as evidence that your opinion is contrary to expert opinion.

Paxton wrote an editorial for the NYT saying that his opinion on Trump had changed after 1/6. However, he has not written a paper on this and remains an outlier.

Calling one's political opponents fascists is very common. It is however offensive because it trivializes fascism. Fascists were responsible for WWII and the Holocaust, leading to the deaths of tens of millions of people. They suspended parliament, banned rival political parties, locked up or killed opponents, censored the press and had gangs terrorize local populations. However odious the Trump administration might have been, that didn't happen, at least not to any significant degree.

When you trivialize fascism, you help its rehabilitation. If everyone is a fascist then no one is a fascist. This is exactly what the gun lobby does when it harps on about gun control in Nazi Germany.

I don't understand why, with so many actual facts you can use to criticize Trump, you rely on the argumentum ad hitlerum. This type of hyperbole is more likely to backfire than persuade and is best avoided. TFD (talk) 11:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

This is getting considerably away from the proposed article content. There's lots of RS detail about the efforts of Trump's current entourage to source and vet prospective appointees who, like various now-charged January 6 defendants and disgraced former Trump advisors, would support, enable, and execute presidential actions adverse to the American core. This thread is not about labeling Trump a "fascist" at the top of the lead. SPECIFICO talk 15:49, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Please note that all the references I provided above are from this month. The Vox piece you cite is from three years ago. You also mention some fascism experts who wrote their major work decades ago and appear retired now. Things have changed. The proposal here relates to the change in Trump's rhetoric in recent weeks, on which subject matter experts have been quoted in publications here and now, rather than academics writing papers that get peer-reviewed and published years later.

As SPECIFICO notes, there is no proposal here to label Trump a fascist. No one is suggesting the lead should say Donald J. Trump is a fascist who was the 45th president of the United States. It's about his rhetoric. As it stands, nowhere in this article is his authoritarian rhetoric even mentioned, despite it being extensively written about for several years. The article says "Trump's political positions and rhetoric were right-wing populist," with sources from 2+ years ago. Nowhere in the article does rule of law appear.

June 2016: Donald Trump Could Threaten U.S. Rule of Law, Scholars Say. Donald J. Trump’s blustery attacks on the press, complaints about the judicial system and bold claims of presidential power collectively sketch out a constitutional worldview that shows contempt for the First Amendment, the separation of powers and the rule of law, legal experts across the political spectrum say.

And now many reliable sources, supported by modern fascism and rhetoric academics, report his rhetoric now reflects that of Mussolini and Hitler. soibangla (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

His authoritarian rhetoric and lack of respect for the rule of law both definitely deserve mention, along with what I suggested in my first comment. DFlhb (talk) 08:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The article already says, "During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist...Trump promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist and many as misogynistic."

That description has similarities to Fascism and Nazism. It also makes him comparable to contemporaries such as Duterte, Modi, Putin, Viktor Orban, Meloni, Javier Milei, LePen and Bolsonaro.

But it also has similarities with nativist and other movements throughout U.S. history: the Salem witch hunts, the Sons of Liberty, Andrew Jackson, Know Nothings, Copperheads, Klansmen, anti-Communists, Birchers, etc. These are more likely to be influences on Trumpism than foreign ideologies.

There are rs making these comparisons. However, if the article makes comparisons of Trump and Fascism/Nazism, then it should write about all the comparisons made in proportion to their support in rs. We must not give greater prominence to Hitler than Andrew Jackson, just because Hitler is less popular with the U.S. public.

TFD (talk) 14:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

That completely ignores the subject of this thread, the prominent awareness an RS discussion of his agenda to implement extra-legal powers by installing select agents in his second term. SPECIFICO talk 16:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

You might be confusing this tread with another one. This thread is called "fascism" and is introduced with Trump's "rhetoric echoes that of fascists such as Mussolini and Hitler." There's also mention of a crackdown on immigration, although it's unclear how this relates to Mussolini and Hitler.

I haven't read about the "select agents." Has this been covered in news media? TFD (talk) 20:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Kudos for sharing that you have not been reading recent secondary and tertiary sourcing about Trump's current campaign, current statements, and current staff activities. ANS: yes. If you're interested in getting up to speed with how he's projecting himself and his vision for the future, there are numerous daily, periodical and book format references on that. This thread is discussing how best to convey their descriptions and, in some cases, revelations. SPECIFICO talk 21:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The content is widely covered by several reliable sources that quote contemporary fascism/rhetoric academics who explicitly liken the Trump rhetoric to fascism, specifically that of Hitler and Mussolini. No one is proposing this be included in the lead, as is the language you cited above. Characterizations like "populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist" should explicitly include "authoritarian," as this has been attributed to him for several years. The current language, indeed the entire article, ignores the elephant in the room. It is passive POV by omission.

My edit was deep in the article, as the matter arose during his 2024 campaign. It is by no means prominently placed. It is notable that Trump's spokesman said of anyone making such comparisons that "their sad, miserable existence will be crushed when President Trump returns to the White House."[15]

I am aware there is a long history of people calling others they hate "fascists" and "communists," which sets up a "cry wolf" dilemma, but that's not what is happening here. It's not people screaming on Twitter. This is highly reliable sources going through rigorous editorial controls to report this. soibangla (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality says that opinions reported in the article should reflect the weight in rs articles about the topic, in this case Donald Trump. It's not enough to show that Trump's rhetoric has been compared to Hitler's, but that it is a significant aspect of the topic as reported in rs.

Comparing political opponents with Hitler is pretty hackneyed by now, which is probably why rs don't give it the degree of attention to merit inclusion, per weight. You see the argumentum ad hitlerum more frequently in right-wing sources, whether it's about gun control, abortion or even unisex restrooms. TFD (talk) 20:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, have you googled Trump fascist rhetoric? Do I need to list even more RS and experts than I already have? That sourcing alone would almost certainly be sufficient for inclusion of this content in anyone else's BLP. I just explained that this is not the usual phenomenon of people calling each other Nazis on message boards and podcasts, it's many reliable sources reporting on the man's rhetoric. It is "clearly fascistic," says Peter Wehner.[16] soibangla (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps this discussion should be widened via RFC soibangla (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we are at the point where an RfC is going to help. Some editors are up to date on RS narratives and others have not yet seen them, before somebody takes the time and trouble to produce even more references, e.g the ones at "stephen miller 2024" "trump retribution" "trump kelly" etc. It's beyond me why the most elaborate opinions here are based on the least familiarity with recent sources, but that's nothing new. SPECIFICO talk 22:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

NOTNEWS? NPOV? RS? I seriously doubt that news reports about Trump in the last few weeks have had a major change on how you or anyone else perceives him. Can you explain what you now think about Trump that you didn't several weeks ago? Or do you just have more ammunition for your opinions? TFD (talk) 13:59, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

No I didn''t google Trump fascist rhetoric because I don't begin with what I think should be in the article and search for it, but instead use reliable sources to determine what should be in the article. Please read the policy on neutrality. What weight if any an aspect of the topic should receive is not based on the political biases of editors. If it were, then the content would be determined by the relative number of editors who were MAGA Republicans or Resistance Democrats.

You should thank your stars that rs are already negative toward the subject so you don't have to google search for additional negative material to add. TFD (talk) 13:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

well ok then. anybody else want to join this discussion? soibangla (talk) 17:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

There appears to be no opposition based on the sources, so I think you could proceed to implement article text. SPECIFICO talk 17:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Soibangla, I'd recommend not adding the proposed paragraph, without a consensus to do so. Perhaps, you should consider opening an RFC instead. We're inching closer to the official opening of the 2024 US presidential campaign & such proposals need as wide an input as possible. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

This page has thousands of page watchers, with no meaningful dissent. No, we donxt need RfCs on each and every sourced content improvement. SPECIFICO talk 18:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I oppose soibangla's text above.

1. ...dehumanizing rhetoric is both a MOS:EGG and a MOS:SEAOFBLUE. (It really, really ticks me off that no one has pointed that out, for various reasons.)
2. Fascist, sure. It is clearly supported by reliable sources. Nazi? Not so fast. No matter how accurate, I oppose Nazi. I also oppose comparing him to Hitler or Mussolini in Wikivoice.

Cessaune [talk] 17:59, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

multiple sources say "dehumanizing rhetoric" but rhetoric can be dewikilinked here if that will address your concern. multiple sources explicitly relate the rhetoric to Hitler, Mussolini and Nazis, so is that in wikivoice? soibangla (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Cessaune, does my reply mitigate your concerns? soibangla (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Delinking rhetoric is good. I don't like the idea of stating it in Wikivoice, regardless of the number of sources. Cessaune [talk] 18:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

You have to go back to the far-right authoritarians in the 1930s in Europe or in 1970s Latin America to find the kind of dehumanizing and violent language that Trump is starting to consistently use

said Harvard professor Steven Levitsky, co-author of How Democracies Die about how elected leaders can gradually subvert the democratic process to increase their power.[17] soibangla (talk) 23:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, this and this SPECIFICO talk 19:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to see more participation in this discussion, but lacking it I will seek to widen participation via RFC by Wednesday. soibangla (talk) 05:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Lasting impact, coverage in RS? So far, we have a couple of speeches and a TruthSocial post. I think we should keep this in Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign for now. Trump is revisiting all of the highlights (lowlights?) of his two prior campaigns with plans/threats/promises to turn the presidency into a dictatorship. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 15:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Recent developments are quite distinct from any plans articulated in his prior campaigns. Even his election denial in 2020-21 was couched in terms of the American legal process and remedies, albeit tenuous and ultimately resolved as vacuous. The current plans are to dismantle the civil service, staff the executive branch with anti-constitutionalists, and politicize the American military for Trump's personal goals -- among other things reported in RS including the several linked on this talk page. SPECIFICO talk 16:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Noticed that twice, attempts were made to give this discussion a more neutral heading. I recommend those attempts be allowed & not reverted. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that was Mandruss's reason for reverting Soibangla's revert. I reverted for a different reason than Soibangla; I think this heading is better. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 15:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Vermin

I see the word “vermin” occurs eight times in this talk page section so far, but never in context. Trump discussed “radical left thugs that live like vermin….” Thus, he was only referring to a certain subset of his opponents as vermin. No reliable source has suggested, of course, that he was calling Republican opponents such as Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis vermin, nor that he was calling Democratic opponents like Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer vermin. He was only calling “radical left thugs” vermin. Any discussion in this BLP about “vermin” should include at least the immediate context: “radical left thugs that live like vermin….” That quote with context is widely reported in RS’s. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

who are the "radical left thugs" he characterized as vermin?

Former President Trump wished his supporters a happy Thanksgiving in a Truth Social post early Thursday while slamming New York's attorney general, the judge overseeing his civil fraud case, President Biden and the "Radical Left Lunatics" ... Trump also targeted Biden, accusing him of weaponizing the “Department of Injustice” against his predecessor in the Oval Office, as well as “all of the other Radical Left Lunatics, Communists, Fascists, Marxists, Democrats, & RINOS, who are seriously looking to DESTROY OUR COUNTRY."[18]

soibangla (talk) 08:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Maybe Trump has said those people are vermin or thugs, maybe not, but the article you link to uses neither word. Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Your "immediate context" isn't the full context. On Veterans Day, he defined the "radical left thugs" both in the speech and in a post on social media: we will root out the Communists, Marxists, Fascists, and Radical Left Thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our Country, lie, steal, and cheat on Elections. They're not off-the-cuff remarks where he went off-script, he then published the script. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

That particular quote does not clearly accuse marxists, communists, or fascists of being like vermin. I can understand why opponents of Trump wish he had called those people vermin, or called his other opponents vermin, but I haven’t yet seen that he did so. He called radical left thugs vermin, which is pretty nasty language on Trump’s part. I suppose maybe the “vermin” might apply to stuff earlier in the sentence, it’s hard to tell. But even if so, he wasn’t calling all of his opponents vermin. I have no objection to using the longer quote which includes more context in this BLP, so long as we don’t suggest he generally called his opponents vermin. Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it does. the communists, marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. Notice the "and"? His Veterans Day speech in New Hampshire is on C-SPAN. This is a transcript of the last minutes of the speech, starting at 1:45:00. The text of the TruthSocial post is in green.

Transcript

We are a failing nation. We are a nation in serious decline, and now these radical left lunatics want to interfere with our elections by using law enforcement. It’s totally corrupt, and we will not let it happen. If you want to save America from "crooked Joe" and then get every, you have to go out, you have to really do it. We have to do it. You know, the one way we win like you’ve never seen before, we have to slam it on Election Day. We have to come up with votes because there’s a point at which they’re cheating, can’t get it done. We, there’s a point at which the cheating can’t get it done. So get every patriot, you know, and get them out to deliver a massive victory in the primary but honestly more importantly in the election, the primary, let’s get the primary done first. We’ll be back here many times, but we gotta get the primary done first. So join our campaign by visiting … or text Trump … OK? 2024 is our final battle. With you at my side and you’ve been on my side from the beginning, we will demolish the deep state. We will expel, we’re going to expel those horrible, horrible war mongers from our government. They want to fight everybody, they want to kill people all over the place, places we’ve never heard about before. Places that want to be left alone. We will drive out the globalists, we will cast out the communists, marxists, fascists. We will throw off the sick political class that hates our country. We will route the fake news media until they become real. We will evict Joe Biden from the White House and we will finish the job that we started better than anybody has ever started a job before. The great silent majority is rising like never before, and under our leadership, the forgotten man and woman will be forgotten no longer. You’re going to be forgotten no longer, and with your help, your love and your vote we will put America first, and today especially in honor of our great veterans on Veteran’s Day, we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country, that lie and steal and cheat on elections, and will do anything possible. They’ll do anything, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America and to destroy the American dream. The real threat is not from the radical right, the real threat is from the radical left, and it’s growing every day, every single day. The threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous, and grave than the threat from within. Our threat is from within. Because if you have a capable, competent, smart, tough leader, Russia, China, North Korea, they’re not gonna want to play with us, and they didn’t. Despite the hatred and anger of the radical left lunatics who want to destroy our Country, we will make America great again!

They removed a few sentences from the speech, including the one I bolded. It says that the real threat is not from the radical right. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 15:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

”Joe owned three cats and two dogs that barked constantly.” That doesn’t suggest cats bark! Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it does. You're only exclusing excluding barking cats because cats usually don't bark. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 16:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC) Fixed typo. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 16:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

No it doesn’t, ”exclusing” is not a word, and I gotta go. Have a good day. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"Joe owned three poodles and two bulldogs that barked constantly." - It's less clear when both are things that bark. --Onorem (talk) 16:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Right, it’s less clear. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for changing “exclusing” to “excluding.”[19] Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

See C-SPAN link, above. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 16:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

this discussion is unimportant because it doesn't matter who he called vermin. the point is he used dehumanizing rhetoric against adversaries, whoever they may be, and the effect is to reduce them to a subhuman level so not-so-smart people might kill them. this is how genocide starts. soibangla (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

That's a wild assertion. Cessaune [talk] 18:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I hope editors can remain focused on the subject of this thread: rhetoric. I am not calling him a fascist or a genocidal maniac. perhaps some of the resistance to inclusion stems from a failure to draw that distinction soibangla (talk) 18:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

So we should discard your proposal that we say Trump “echoed dehumanizing rhetoric of white supremacists and fascist dictators such as Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler”? Okay. Keep in mind that Trump has been the target of dehumanizing rhetoric too. For example, Jim Acosta of CNN called him a “snake in search of a sewer”. [20]. Truman said Eisenhower “doesn’t know any more about politics than a pig knows about Sunday.” Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how you get from what I said to So we should discard your proposal that we say Trump “echoed dehumanizing rhetoric of white supremacists and fascist dictators such as Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler”? This is not the BLP of Acosta or Eisenhower. soibangla (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

You said that you’re “not calling him a fascist or a genocidal maniac.” As for Acosta, he’s a CNN reporter describing the subject of this BLP, so of course it’s relevant to this talk page discussion. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I read what you wrote soibangla (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

And didn’t you also propose that we say Trump “echoed dehumanizing rhetoric of white supremacists and fascist dictators such as Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler”? Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

there is nothing contradictory in what I've proposed here. I recommend you and I disengage here soibangla (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Acosta didn't call Trump a snake. He said he was "Like A Snake In Search Of A Sewer". Truman didn't call Eisenhower a pig, and neither one wanted anyone to be rooted out or crushed. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 19:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Comparing Trump to a snake or Eisenhower to a pig was dehumanizing, but no reason for Wikipedia to classify those speakers with Hitler and Mussolini, or to give undue weight to people who do make that very offensive comparison. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It matters that he called, per the TruthSocial post your Hill cite cites, e.g., Judge Engoron a "Radical Left Trump hating judge", later mentioning "crooked Joe Biden ... & all of the other Radical Left Lunatics, Communists, Fascists, Marxists, Democrats, & RINOS, who are seriously looking to DESTROY OUR COUNTRY." And what are the "Radical Left Lunatics"? Vermin, according to the above transcript and TruthSocial post. Yeah, kind of SYNTH at the moment and I oppose inclusion in this article until further notice, BUT that clearly puts Engoron, Biden, James, etc. in the vermin category he intends to root out. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 19:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources show that he calls all of his critics, Republican opponents, Democrats, government officers and civil servants -- and any others whom he feels are adverse to his interests -- words from America-hating radical socialist communists to vermin, rapists, etc. Not all at once. The targets change from day to day, appearing and receding with the tide. The reason it's significant for his bio is that it's apparently about conversion of official governmental power to serve whatever crosses his mind. SPECIFICO talk 19:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Would be better placed in his 2024 campaign page. Afterall, weren't we trying to make his BLP shorter? GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, for the reasons you state. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello I’m an member of dispute resolution who will try to get and/or keep this conversation civil and on topic. I would also like to disclose my opinion on this I think we at this point should not use fascists any where in the article as that would spark more. Controversy •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Cyberwolf. I also contacted administrator @ScottishFinnishRadish: to monitor the entire discussion. GoodDay (talk) 20:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is around 2.5 decitomats so I may have missed something, but I've reviewed it and don't see anything standing out as requiring an administrator. Is there something in particular I should be seeing? Right now looks like it's a not-particularly-heated-for-American-politics discussion that's headed for an RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It's my hope that administrative actions won't be required. That being said, I hope you'll continue to monitor the discussion, considering its topic. GoodDay (talk) 23:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Cyberwolf please note there is no proposal to call Trump a fascist. rather, there are multiple reliable secondary sources and multiple subject matter experts that report his rhetoric echoes that of fascists, and those sources explicitly cite Hitler and Mussolini. I do not believe this encyclopedia should shy from including this simply because it is distasteful to some. Godwin's law is not at play here. soibangla (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm calling for a somewhat stronger proposal: discussing the subject-matter experts who have described Trump as a fascist, with appropriate attribution of course. There is no need, in my view, to dance around the matter. As for Godwin's law, note what Godwin himself says about Trump: If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician. Generalrelative (talk) 21:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, Godwin's law is settled. Lets make sure we don't run afoul of the Cute cat theory. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Never! Generalrelative (talk) 23:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Not to be a smart a$$ the article literally states

In December 2015, Godwin commented on comparisons being made between Hitler and Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying: "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician." In August 2017, Godwin made similar remarks on social media with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging comparisons of its alt-right organizers to Nazis.

So I guess another source

So godwins law is at play kinda •Cyberwolf•talk? 02:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Godwin's law has never really meant that you shouldn't compare things to Nazis. It is reminding people that you need to be careful and make sure that there are actual similarities involved, don't just call someone a Nazi because you disagree with them. If you are dealing with someone who says and does things that really are like what the Nazis said and did, then the comparison is appropriate and the need to make it increases. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Posted at NPOVN

I have posted a request for participation at NPOVN. SPECIFICO talk 17:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Post-posting break

I don't have this page on my watchlist, was just summoned by the posting on NPOVN. But I will say that I still stand behind everything I said back in February 2021 at Talk:Fascism/Archive 53#Trump. Indeed, the number of mainstream subject-matter experts who freely use the term "fascist" to describe Trump or Trumpism has continued to grow, and with good reason. This article needs to go with what the best of these say, focusing on concrete aspects of his politics which qualify as fascist under the various overlapping definitions that are considered mainstream. For example, as SPECIFICO points out, Robert Paxton (by far the most celebrated historian who has written a monograph specifically aimed at defining fascism) had for a long while resisted using the term to describe Trump but made a dramatic about-face after the January 6th 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol. That short opinion piece is definitely worth reading. Note why he changed his mind, and why he thinks this is significant, why the label now seems not just acceptable but necessary. Generalrelative (talk) 20:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The call for participation was unfocused. Are we being asked if Trump is a fascist? (Yes.) Or is there a content question? Sennalen (talk) 06:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

No, we are not arguing whether Trump is or isn't a fascist. This is about whether or not we should characterize his remarks as fascist. Cessaune [talk] 08:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

To clarify my statement above: we should be discussing what subject-matter experts have said –– some of them characterizing Trump's words (and deeds) as fascist, some disagreeing with this characterization –– and in each instance giving proper attribution, i.e. "So-and-so argued that..." per WP:YESPOV. That Trump's remarks are fascist is clearly not a ubiquitous enough position for us to state it in Wikivoice. Generalrelative (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm curious, do you haave examples of expert credible dissent to the effect that Trump's current agenda and pronouncements are not fascist, totalitarian, extra-constitutional, Unamerican, or similar bad news? SPECIFICO talk 15:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

That's too many things to have a real discussion about. We should be more precise than that. And I haven't been keeping up with the current crop of positions on the matter. But here, for instance, is Richard Evans in the aftermath of January 6th arguing that while Trump is very bad news indeed he shouldn't be called a fascist: [21]. Note that my opinion, as stated in that archived thread at Talk:Fascism is otherwise: I find figures like Paxton and Timothy Snyder more convincing. But Evans is a big deal, and so are some of the other holdouts (Samuel Moyn is another example, see [22]). Generalrelative (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, I gave that long list of words because I don't see much expert dissent from the many mainstream assessments that his recent posture and intention is to govern as a totalitarian. Also, this discussion is about his recent extension and amplification of his authoritarian proclivities. So post jan-6 is not what this is about. Note that this article did not call him fascist in 2021. So I wouldn't consider Evans a counterpoint to recent assessments and reporting about his current active recruiting/vetting of accomplices. SPECIFICO talk 15:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Understood. Would you like to propose some text to be added to the article? (Apologies if you did so above and I missed it.) Generalrelative (talk) 15:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Remarks are a dime a dozen. I would lead with Paxton's assessment that January 6th was a fascist turn, and any commentary on remarks can buttress that. Sennalen (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with you there. To call Trump himself fascist requires more than a single source, or two, or three. Cessaune [talk] 15:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This way of framing the question appears to miss the point of WP:YESPOV. We shouldn't be calling him anything. That's an entirely different question to whether we report what experts say on the matter. Generalrelative (talk) 15:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I assumed that was implied. Obviously we aren't calling him anything. Cessaune [talk] 15:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Aha, so can you explain the issue then? Have folks not provided enough high-quality sources in your opinion? Generalrelative (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I haven't been convinced of any of these arguments to include the proposed paragraph, in this BLP. Forgive me, but I keep picturing Scarborough's over the top dramatics on Morning Joe, a few days ago. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Is there a proposed paragraph? Or just a general idea that something should be said? Without concrete language to discuss (and sources attached to that language), I'm afraid that this conversation will keep on going around in circles. Generalrelative (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I’m afraid this will spiral into many weeks if not months of worthless debate
Or a possible policy •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

That's rather pessimistic for a member of dispute resolution, no? I think we're better than that, though I'm also prepared to be proven wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Generalrelative (talk) 17:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

As step 1, I would bring this[23] directly over to the January 6th section of this page. Sennalen (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I typed in "trump fascist" to scholar.google.com and there's a lot of hits. Some that jumped out to me were[24][25][26] but I have no idea if they're the best on offer. Has anyone been collecting these? I see a list of news opinion sources in the archives. No telling what might be tucked away around other talk pages in the topic space. Sennalen (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I strongly advise against explicitly labeling him a fascist soibangla (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Right now I'm just talking about what sources exist. Sennalen (talk) 23:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

that's fine, but you might winnow down the search results with trump fascist rhetoric soibangla (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not about 2023 rhetoric, but I think the best approach to the first introduction of "fascism" on the page is with more established material, namely Paxton's assessment. It has stood unchallenged on the January 6th page for a long time, and one of the sources I found today adds secondary support. The journal article by Dennis Tourish would be usable for other things probably too. I propose to add the following to the end of the January 6th section of this page:

Historian of fascism, Robert Paxton marked the January 6th attack as the turning point of Trump's movement away from democratic norms and towards fascism.

Sennalen (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

the reliable sources and subject matter experts of this month make clear this is about his most recent rhetoric. efforts to label him a fascist will almost certainly fail to achieve consensus at this time. I discourage going that way. soibangla (talk) 02:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Just speak for yourself. Consensus will reveal itself. Sennalen (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Looking for wider context and contesting claims that might expand the treatment. There are some significant dissenting voices. Forgive me if I'm retreading old ground.

This has an interesting claim about the increased use of the word "fascist" in media after January 6th.[27]

This[28] names some experts who continued not to think Trump was fascist after January 6th: Roger Griffin, Matthew Feldman, Stanley Payne, and Ruth Ben-Ghiat

It looks like Ben-Ghiat flipped due to the recent rhetoric. [29] (probably not RS)

This... I read it three times and can't figure out whether Feldman was saying yes or no.[30]

Sennalen (talk) 05:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Tomorrow I will begin drafting an RFC to solicit wider participation and focus centered on this question: should this BLP include that by 2023 Trump's rhetoric echoed that of fascism? soibangla (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Why RfC? That text has not met much objection. SPECIFICO talk 04:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I seek to establish firm consensus to avert a contentious edit war, and to ensure the focus is limited to rhetoric rather than to a label soibangla (talk) 04:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Politics rfcs tend to attract less informed editors and diffuse unsourced views. SPECIFICO talk 04:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with SPECIFICO.

Before we think about RfCs, people should start drafting their own paragraphs. Maybe an alternate wording is all it takes. Cessaune [talk] 04:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I can only hope that mindful editors and admins would corral others from wandering into the wilderness in such a contentious matter, but call me naïve. We should test this. soibangla (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

We should not test this. History speaks for itself. Cessaune [talk] 04:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't even know what that means. The matter is deadlocked in extensive discussion and a focused RFC is now warranted. Is this not the way it's supposed to work around here? Or are we to just argue each other to exhaustion until everyone just walks away with nothing gained? soibangla (talk) 05:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll just go back to my original point—let's solve the whole thing now, instead of dragging ourselves into a month-long process that will only solve half of the question. Cessaune [talk] 05:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

we've tried that to no avail. there is now a deadlock that should be resolved by a focused RFC to resolve the whole thing now by a formal process. this is what we do here, is it not? soibangla (talk) 05:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

There isn't really a deadlock. The only people who are directly opposing any sort of characterization of Trump's comments as facist are Anythingyouwant, and GoodDay (only for this article).

Propose a new wording. Cessaune [talk] 05:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

In this discussion, there are some who seem to object to labeling Trump a fascist, when that has not actually been proposed, and others who would prefer that characterization.

Propose a new wording I said I would begin drafting a focused RFC tomorrow, that I hope will not go off the rails into diversions. I remain optimistic in how this project should work. soibangla (talk) 05:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm kind of confused. Can you explain what you mean when you say "focused RFC"? Thanks. Cessaune [talk] 05:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Tomorrow I will begin drafting an RFC to solicit wider participation and focus centered on this question: should this BLP include that by 2023 Trump's rhetoric echoed that of fascism? soibangla (talk) 06:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Soibangla: I've no objections to your having an RFC. GoodDay (talk) 05:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You seem to be wanting to architect a planned consensus as a moat against edits that haven't even been proposed yet. I don't think that would be helpful. Just say what you, as a solitary person, think content should look like. Sennalen (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I tend to disengage from editors who use the term you soibangla (talk) 04:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll say it differently then, because I get your point but Sennalen brings up a good point herself—draft a wording. Let's solve the whole thing now, instead of dragging ourselves into a month-long process that will only solve half of the question. Cessaune [talk] 04:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

draft a wording is exactly what I said I would do, to avert a protracted dispute and resolve the issue soibangla (talk) 04:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Soibangla, we've seen RfCs fail before. The best-informed participants of the current group decline to repeat themselves, a few newcomers arrive from their talk-page invitations and shoot from the hip - failing to review or understand the considerable thought that's already been presented - and a month later some well-meaning closer may or may not make sense of it all. I think you and Sennalen are on the right track and can quickly agree on acceptable article text. It won't preclude adding more in the future, but we have a core of agreed points that can be included now. SPECIFICO talk 12:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)T

I don't see a consensus for the latest addition, concerning this topic. Yet, it's been added (then re-added) to this BLP anyway. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggest a edit freeze on the facist part until this dispute is concluded •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think handling of January 6th should be decoupled from handling of 2023 remarks. The latter is what an RfC would be about, to my understanding. Sennalen (talk) 16:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish:, IMHO WP:ONUS calls for the addition-in-question to be reverted, in this situation. What say you? GoodDay (talk) 16:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

If there is no consensus new material should not be added. Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The proposal attracted no response by the time everyone involved had made other comments, so consensus was presumed. It became contested at the moment GoodDay reverted. After that, ONUS applies, reversions should stop, and we should discuss the edit rather than meta-discuss the merits of discussing or not. Sennalen (talk) 17:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD too, the addition should be reverted. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Also per BRD you should explain your reasons to revert. That's where the discussion starts. Sennalen (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I did explain my reversion, in my edit summary. There was no consensus for your addition. GoodDay (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Per brd you actually have to explain on the talk page •Cyberwolf•talk? 18:34, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

So I shall. The addition was done without a consensus to do so. This topic being contentious, the addition shouldn't have been made. GoodDay (talk) 18:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

GoodDay, you have been all over this thread, despite a statement you were quitting it and despite a visit to an Admin's page that resulted in their coming here unable to see why you were so agitated. You are welcome and urged to state a reasoned, sourcing and policy based view concerning article text, but several editors have asked you to refrain from empty nervous comments that are not constructive. On some pages, unconstructive comments are removed on sight. Sounds severe, but it's worth considering. SPECIFICO talk 19:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

That's still in the realm of procedural meta-reasons. If no one has something specific to say against the actual edit, then it has consensus. Read WP:DRNC for explanation. Sennalen (talk) 19:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Sennalen: Well then, we'll see if anybody elese does or not via comments or reverts. If nobody else 'reverts' your addition, then so be it. I'm certainly not going to revert it (every 24 hrs), only to have that revert undone. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Include mention of Abraham Accords in opening section

The opening section of the article is heavily critical of Donald Trump, citing his controversial policies, controversial actions and failings. I am not disputing this, but I suggest that it may improve the article's balance and neutrality, to also mention successful aspects of his administration. The Abraham Accords are the main achievement I suggest; under the Trump administration's mediation, Israel normalized relations with 4 Arab nations: the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan. This was a significant development, creating diplomatic relations between key US allies and advanced economies in the region. It was also a key step closer towards ending the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Looking to build consensus. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 18:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times here, and the consensus has been that they are not relevant to Trump's bio. Zaathras (talk) 20:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

How an arbitrary pool of scholars and historians rank Trump is relevant, but one of his greatest tangible achievements from office isn't?

Now that the dust has settled a little more, this should possibly be open to discussion again. The current state of the article is imbalanced and everything that Wikipedia should avoid being. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 21:50, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

one of his greatest tangible achievements from office ? Lol what? The Abraham Accords were largely ceremonial agreements between states already in de facto peace agreements. Trump himself didn't even have a personal hand in any of it, until it was time to put pen to paper. It has no importance to this article, and is better covered elsewhere. Zaathras (talk) 22:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

A lot of this is your own opinion, on a contentious topic. I can see from the past archives that you have been quite active in promoting this view here. Something tells me that you likely do not apply similarly high standards of scrutiny to the successes done under other administrations - just the Trump one. Please do remember what Wikipedia is for.

We could debate about Trump's level of involvement in the Abraham Accords, but this is a red herring. Ultimately the Abraham Accords were a hugely successful accomplishment under his administration.

Just because it is covered in other articles about the Trump administration, does not neglect the importance of including it in the Donald Trump article, amid paragraphs extensively discussing his actions and policies in office. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 22:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a can of worms. In addition to having just about nothing to do with Trump, it would open the door to the RS narratives concerning his son-in-law's pandering and cultivation of the Saudi's that culminated in an otherwise inexplicalble investment in the young man's untested and undistinguished investment fund. The talk archives have repeatedly determined this Abraham bit is UNDUE for this page. SPECIFICO talk 23:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "RS narratives"? Genuinely sincere question. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 01:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Something tells me that you likely do not apply similarly high standards of scrutiny to the successes done under other administrations - just the Trump one. My my, Whataboutism and casting aspersions in one go. Your stay here may be a short one. Zaathras (talk) 23:33, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

It's interesting that you chose to focus on one sentence, out of the seven wrote in my response, ignoring the more pertinent points. This tends to be known as cherry picking. Anyhow, it is clear that we shall disagree on this topic. I shall wait to see if any further consensus arrives. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 01:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Neutral Editor 645:

Provide reliable sources that back up your claims. Since no one has done so to back up any claim in this thread, be the first one to do so. If the Abraham Accords are truly one of [Trump's] greatest tangible achievements then it shouldn't be too hard to find sourcing.

Ultimately the Abraham Accords were a hugely successful accomplishment under his administration—according to who? To you? It sounds like [a] lot of this is your own opinion, or am I mistaken?

It's interesting that you chose to focus on one sentence, out of the seven wrote in my response, ignoring the more pertinent points. This tends to be known as cherry picking. It is not, and will never be cherrypicking to point out behavior that goes against enwiki policy. Cessaune [talk] 18:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The Accords, and Trump's personal involvement, are far less significant than some would have us believe. The agreement was not significant because the parties were not in conflict and it was an open secret they had been cooperating on various levels for years, they just didn't publicize it. Trump needed a foreign policy win going into an election year and this was a fairly easy one that his campaign and base could tout as worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize. His direct involvement was negligible beyond telling Kushner to get it done, and even then, Kushner needed to pull a 180 (annexation of West Bank settlements) in his long-awaited peace plan he had released months earlier to get it done. Then Trump showed up for the signing ceremony photo op. It was nothing close to the Camp David Accords. soibangla (talk) 02:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Leave it in..if it`s the best he could come up with in 4 years w/e...he signed some half-hearted bill regarding ivory importation the first day when he was signing everything his handlers were putting in front of him qualifying it with " I don`t hunt " Anonymous8206 (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

We can't leave it in if it isn't in to begin with. Zaathras (talk) 03:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

It was also a key step closer towards ending the Arab-Israeli Conflict. In light of recent events, simply ignoring the Palestinians for preelection photo-ops of people signing documents seems to have been a key step closer towards the current war. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Quite so, and the acceptance of various narratives boosting the purported significance of the cleverly-branded "accords" is symptomatic of the larger NPOV issues yet to be resolved on this article page -- in particular the portrayal of Trump as a successful businessman rather than a successful street-level media star. SPECIFICO talk 15:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Neutral Editor 645: I doubt you'll get a local consensus for such an addition. As for going the RFC route? That's up to you. GoodDay (talk) 15:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Respectfully, GoodDay, stop suggesting RfCs when RfCs are not warranted. Cessaune [talk] 18:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I was responding to Neutral Editor, not you. GoodDay (talk) 18:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

You're missing the point. It's not helpful to suggest an RfC for every single issue, especially one with such broad consensus to not include. It doesn't matter who you're talking to, as the RfC is something we all collectively have to deal with. Cessaune [talk] 18:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Not discussing this with you, any further. Neutral Editor, can make their own choices. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Cessaune. In a one-against-many situation, launching an RfC after only two days of discussion is a waste of community time. And you don't get to pick who responds to you. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

See discussion, below. GoodDay (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, an RFC on this topic is probably warranted at this point. There have been at least 4 other threads about this in the last year and a half asking for some mention of the Abraham accords to be mentioned in the article [31] [32] [33] [34], and the last discussion that looks anything like an RFC was in early 2021 [35]. Over this time, 14 editors have expressed support for inclusion (Bob K31416, GoodDay, myself, Bill Williams, Chrismorey, Iamreallygoodatcheckers, Andrevan, Anon0098, Anythingyouwant, Pavlor, Berchanhimez, Szmenderowiecki, Chrisahn, HAL333, and now Neutral Editor 645) and 11 editors have expressed opposition (Zaathras, Firefangledfeathers, Space4Time3Continuum2x, Specifico, Crazypredictor, Slatersteven, ValarianB, Calton, Pincrete, Symmachus Auxiliarus, and soibangla).

Every discussion since 2021 has essentially been met with a couple editors saying "this is a settled issue." If every editor from every thread opened participated in a new RFC, consensus may look stronger than what we have from 2021, where only 12 people participated. If we go the RFC route and get a stronger consensus on this issue, I'd support adding it to the FAQ list as a reason to stop re-litigating this. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

There's repeatedly confirmed lack of consensus to include this. RfC would just waste lots of editor time and attention, which is increasinngly limited given the many AP recent events and developments. SPECIFICO talk 23:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

There's repeatedly confirmed lack of consensus; there most certainly is not. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 01:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Instead of that comment, all you'd need to do is link to the consensus you think is affirmed. Please. SPECIFICO talk 03:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You're right - lack of consensus to include isn't actually consensus to exclude. The latter is what there isn't. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 04:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Right, so thats why its a big waste of time. SPECIFICO talk 04:12, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

RFCs are intended to generate consensus in the absence of clear consensus, so... PhotogenicScientist (talk) 04:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you unaware that WP does not require consensus to exclude? SPECIFICO talk 16:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

PhotogenicScientist, the addition of the Accords to this BLP, would be acceptable to me. GoodDay (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Considering the fact that such a proposal has ended multiple times with a lack of consensus to include, why would an RfC be any different? Cessaune [talk] 04:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

An WP:RFC should attract more discussion than a regular discussion, would it not? Also, we could invite anyone who's had an opinion on the matter in the last 5 discussions to participate - get a holistic idea of consensus from all the editors that have expressed interest about this topic. 04:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC) PhotogenicScientist (talk) 04:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

What is the significance of the Accords for Trump's personal biography, per the majority of recent reliable sources? Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 12:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You cannot require editors to come here for no reason to repeat their views. You can see the entire range of views by reading the archive. That's why we archive past labors. What are you trying to say with "holistic"? Do you mean comprehensive? We already have that. SPECIFICO talk 12:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

So, to avoid running an RFC, you say we can just look through the archives to assess consensus. Alright then - there are two ways to interpret the 5 talkpage discussions on this article: 1) There has never been a local consensus to include this content, or 2) A majority of editors on the talk page agree that this content should be included. Why is it more fair to go with the first interpretation? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh hey, you and I were here last November, where we discussed that exact point: [36]. I mentioned that it's really weird to draw this WP:UNDUE line in the sand here.

We don't make that distinction at other points in this article (The Trump administration "water[ed] down the toughest penalties the U.S. had imposed on Russian entities" after its 2014 annexation of Crimea...; ...the Trump administration sanctioned 12 companies and 13 individuals suspected of being involved in Iran's missile program...). We don't make that distinction on the article for Barack Obama (In 2016, the Obama administration proposed a series of arms deals with Saudi Arabia worth $115 billion...; The Obama administration asked Congress to allocate money toward funding the Iron Dome program...). We don't make that distinction on the biographies of any other president, it seems (In February 1996, the Clinton administration agreed to pay Iran US$131.8 million (equivalent to $245.93 million in 2022) in settlement...; Reagan's administration continued discussions with the Soviet Union on START I. I just don't see a compelling reason why we wouldn't include it here. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

WP does not require consensus to omit. There has never been anything close to agreement for inclusion. No, RfC will only attract a waste of time. You posted a long list of the participants in past rejections of this content. There's no reason to think that yet another rehash is going to "attract more discussion" that will produce a tidal wave of support to overwhelm the well-established rejection of such content. SPECIFICO talk 11:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC) Consensus is not a majority vote count. WP:STICK SPECIFICO talk 16:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@PhotogenicScientist:, I say you should have an RFC & put this include/exclude argument to rest. After all, there can only be two possible outcomes. GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Users need to read WP:ONUS, it is down to those arguing for inclusion to get consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Therefore, I'm curious as to why WP:ONUS has been ignored, concerningt the other major topic being discussed. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Age at inauguration

Under "Early actions", I would like to add the fact that Trump was the oldest person in US history to be sworn in as president. This appears quiet significant. The same has been done on Reagan's page. My proposal can be seen below:

70 years old at the time, he became the oldest person to assume the U.S. presidency, surpassing Ronald Reagan who took office at age 69 in 1981; this ranking would at age 78 be passed on to Joe Biden in 2021. Marginataen (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

LOr "he became the oldest until he was not", seems to me to not really be very informative. Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Have we the same written about Reagan (nearly 70, in January 1981) & before that W. Harrison (68, in March 1841)? Kinda irrelevant trivia, since Biden (passed 78, in January 2021) too office. GoodDay (talk) 14:33, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

We have the same or similar at Ronald Reagan only because this user recently added it, so it should be reverted. Zaathras (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I've just removed the trivia from Reagan's bio page. GoodDay (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

No. Once you get surpassed by someone in these kinds of trivia cases, we do not need to keep a record of or make note of the status quo ante. What if, praytell, a 90 year-old is someday elected to the presidency? We're going to add it like

70 years old at the time, he became the oldest person to assume the U.S. presidency, surpassing Ronald Reagan who took office at age 69 in 1981]]; this ranking would at age 78 be passed on to Joe Biden in 2021, until it was surpassed by Old-Man-Aged-90 in 2034.

No, this endless trivia stops here. Zaathras (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

You guys seriously find it to be "trivia" that Trump was the oldest POTUS in history? Grover Cleveland's article currently writes that he is the only president to serve serve non-consecutive presidential terms. If this changes in 2025, that would be updated and Trump' name would be mentioned on his page over 100 years after Cleveland's death. It is not unusual to update a fact about a record holder when the person in question no longer holds X record. Even if it's surpassed more than a 100 years later. Marginataen (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

How many times has the oldest person to become US president record, been broken? The first time was Adams (going on 62, in March 1797) breaking Washington's record (57, in April 1789), for example. Then Jefferson (going on 58, in March 1801) broke the youngest person to become US president record, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Reminds me of how we in the UK keep getting younger and younger PMs. When Blair, Cameron and Sunak took office the media noted every time that they were "the youngest prime minister in 200 years". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Political positions

It's common that a politician's bio article includes a "Political positions" section. Here, quite a bit can be gleaned from the extensive coverage of his presidency, but that doesn't dispose of the issue. Since leaving office, he's talked about things he would do differently in a second term, so we can't just assume that everything he did as President represents a current position. There is some more recent information in the daughter article on his 2024 campaign. Per WP:SS, however, there should be at least a summary here. That might be an alternative to a separate "Political positions" section. One way or the other, the subject merits inclusion. JamesMLane t c 19:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

This might best be addressed in the section above captioned "fascism" where we appear to be converging on some coverage of his current views and aspirations. SPECIFICO talk 19:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that some of his recent statements have drawn criticism as fascism or fascism-adjacent, and that it's a subject worth including. The problem is that he's made many other statements that would go in a "Political positions" section but that don't fit under the "fascism" rubric -- Middle East conflict, withdrawal from NATO, repeal of Obamacare, etc. JamesMLane t c 04:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Weren’t solving the Middle East conflict, withdrawal from NATO, repeal of Obamacare all positions he had when he ran the last time? I’m not sure I see the value unless they are accompanied with some sense that there are plans that go along with these goals. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Anyway he said he's achieved 2 out of 3 and he's working on Obamacare right now, so. SPECIFICO talk 15:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Many of the Republicans who supported Obamacare repeal during Trump’s first time don’t hold that position now. GOP Senators Reject Trump's Latest Bid to Revoke Obamacare Saying It's 'Technically Impossible' We can’t simply assume that a position from several years ago represents anyone’s current views. Furthermore, as that article illustrates, Trump’s recent renewed call for repeal is notable as having generated discussion (pro and con), more so than his typical reiteration of previous positions. On other issues, there are changed circumstances. Along with the renewed outbreak of violence in the Middle East, there’s the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which some people blame on NATO but which others say illustrates NATO’s continuing importance. It’s useful to the reader to present up-to-date information about Trump’s views. JamesMLane t c 20:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's worth considering, because for politicians, political positions are in many ways defining. There's a child article, and IMO Joe Biden#Political positions shows it can be done well. DFlhb (talk) 11:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)