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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
Before creating a new section, note:

• Discussions of technical issues belong at Village pump (technical).
• Discussions of policy belong at Village pump (policy).
• If you're ready to make a concrete proposal and determine whether it has consensus, go to the Village pump (proposals). Proposals worked out here can be brought there.

Before commenting, note:

• This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
• Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals.

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Selection criteria for lists involving subjective categorization

There is a broad issue with lists that involve subjective categorization being breeding grounds for WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:UNDUE violations. To address this, I have been work shopping a new section, based on WP:DUE, that would be included at WP:Stand-alone lists, and I am bringing it here for further work shopping:

Selection criteria for lists involving subjective categorization

To comply with core policies on neutrality and original research topics should only be included unqualified in a list involving subjective categorization, such as List of video games considered the best or List of massacres in France, if the view that the categorization applies is the view of the majority, substantiated with references to commonly accepted reference texts. If the view that the categorization applies is held by significant minority then the topic can be included alongside appropriate qualification that makes it clear that its inclusion is not the majority view.

This is particularly important when the category is covered by MOS:PUFFERY or MOS:LABEL.

The intent of if the view that the categorization applies is the view of the majority, substantiated with references to commonly accepted reference texts is to make it clear that WP:DUE applies, but the exact wording to do so likely needs further work and comments on that aspect in particular would be appreciated.

Previous discussions can be found at NPOVN and SAL. BilledMammal (talk) 13:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand entirely what this proposal is...er...proposing:

1. By "topics" do you mean articles? If not, then what do you mean?
2. What do you mean by "unqualified"? Are you suggesting that it's okay to include items on a list without reliable sources that support their inclusion?
3. What do you mean by majority, and do you mean to imply that a majority should take precedent over a consensus?
4. In my experience, list articles don't typically include items that then have notes indicating that whether they belong on the list is contested.

DonIago (talk) 13:44, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

1. "Topics" refers to the individual subjects, entries, or items that might be included in a list.
2. "Unqualified" refers to the inclusion of a topic in a list without any accompanying clarifications indicating that its inclusion might be controversial or not universally accepted
3. "Majority" has the same meaning here that it does in WP:DUE; that there is a consensus among reliable sources that the subjective categorization applies.
4. List articles typically don't, but to comply with the requirements of WP:DUE they should; we can't be presenting the view of a minority as if it was the view of the majority.

BilledMammal (talk) 14:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Thanks for clarifying!
2. I'll be curious to hear from other editors regarding whether list articles should include items considered contentious.
3. How would we determine whether a majority of reliable sources consider a video game the best or consider an incident in France to be a massacre? There's at least probably video game review aggregators that could be used to say a game was well-reviewed, but "the best"? I have doubts that there's a similar aggregator to say whether most people consider an incident in France to be a massacre.
4. This sounds like your opinion rather than an established consensus?

DonIago (talk) 17:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

For #3, it's not a "majority of reliable sources", but "the view of the majority". As for how we determine that, the same way we determine it for every other article; this isn't a new requirement, it already applies to every article, including lists, through WP:NPOV.

For #4, this is established consensus in that it is part of NPOV and non-negotiable; even if there was a consensus against it (ie, a consensus that allows us to present minority viewpoints as if they were on the same level as majority viewpoints) NPOV would require us to reject it.

In general, all I am proposing to do here is make it very clear that NPOV does apply to lists, and provide some structure on how to apply it. BilledMammal (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the text should be simplified a bit... someone with English not as their first language could struggle with "unqualified in a list involving subjective categorization" and "the categorization applies is the view of the majority"... heck, I'm struggling myself! Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

That's kind of what I was getting at with my earlier comment; I think this is a bit of a word salad, but without knowing what the intentions are it's challenging for me to suggest less complex wording. DonIago (talk) 13:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It definitely needs rewording, though I'm not currently sure how to simplify it but still get the point across. BilledMammal (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"Majority" and "minority" of what? Sources or editors? Schazjmd (talk) 13:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

See my reply to Doniago above. BilledMammal (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem with this proposal is that editors do not have a shared understanding of what it means for something to be subjective. Some editors think that subjective means something like "word that makes me feel like someone disapproves" or "label". Based on recent discussions, I would expect this to be invoked for discussions about List of bank robbers and robberies, not just for List of massacres. (A massacre is no more subjective than the color green. Having a slightly vague definition (vague definition: "killing a lot of defenseless people"; precise definition: "killing 17 or more defenseless people") is not the same thing as being subjective (subjective definition: "If you are the killer, then a massacre means killing 17 or more defenseless people, but if you are one of the people being killed, then killing anyone including you is a massacre". Objective definition: "killing a lot of defenseless people").

See also User:WhatamIdoing/Subjectivity in Wikipedia articles (work in progress). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Nice essay! Do you have any illustrative article examples in mind? – Reidgreg (talk) 12:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Reidgreg. I didn't write it with any article in mind, but nearly every medical article will have some aspect of this (e.g., kids recover quickly from Tonsillectomy, but the same procedure is harder on adults; don't give this drug to kids or pregnant women; preventive healthcare efforts, like checking your cholesterol levels, are kinda pointless if you're already dying of something else). It's probably more challenging to hit the right balance in political areas: China thinks A but the US thinks B; poor people think C but rich people think D; young adults think E and older adults think F, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

We can include a definition of subjective categorization; "Subjective categorization" would be any categorization that is not based on measurable and universally accepted criteria.

List of bank robbers and robberies has a measurable and universally accepted criteria, and so is not subjective. List of massacres does not have a universally accepted criteria, and so is subjective. Would that address your concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 16:30, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that you need to move away from the "subjective" language, because it will be misinterpreted. Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard, and one of the ways to do better at it is to avoid words that are not well settled or that mean something different in the real world. We do not need another 20 years of "Yes, well, it might be notable, but it's not WP:Notable", only this time using subjective as the confusing wikijargon word. If you want "measurable and universally accepted criteria", then say that and do not say subjective.

I'm not sure that List of bank robbers and robberies has universally accepted criteria. How many of the events in Cryptocurrency#Loss, theft, and fraud belong in that list? They're banks (i.e., financial institutions accepting deposits from the general public) but not legally regulated banks, and the money (which is real money, but not government-issued money) was stolen. Were those bank robberies? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard, and one of the ways to do better at it is to avoid words that are not well settled or that mean something different in the real world. That is the meaning in the real world - I didn't make it up, and when I ran it through ChatGPT as a method of verifying comprehensibility it correctly interpreted every aspect, including that one.

I don't mind considering alternative wording, but I think subjective, as the opposite of objective, is the best word here.

How many of the events in Cryptocurrency#Loss, theft, and fraud belong in that list? Skimming it, none. Bank robbery requires force, violence, or threat of violence, and it appears that none of those thefts involved that. BilledMammal (talk) 16:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

You say that this is the meaning in the real world, and yet when I look at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective and https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/subjective or even wikt:subjective, I do not find either of the words measurable or universal.

According to your notion of bank "robbery", a bank "burglary" does not belong in the List of bank robbers and robberies. The law (int he US) might treat breaking into a bank in the middle of the night to steal money out of the vault yourself as being distinct from threatening to kill someone if they don't take the money out of the vault and give it to you, but I'm not sure that the Wikipedia list makes the same distinction. The incident described at the top of List of bank robbers and robberies#Slovenia would technically be considered a burglary, if it happened in the US. If you go back to this idea that the definition is "universal", then I don't think that the definition of bank robbery is universal. I think the US FBI says that there are robberies (e.g., threatening the teller) and burglaries (e.g., sneaking in at night) and thefts (e.g., computer hacking), and that most people use bank robbery to mean any crime in which depositors' money is stolen from a depository institution. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

List for gore websites

Hi. I have been thinking for couple weeks now, if I should create an article that would contain all gore websites. Basically a list that would contain all operational and defunct gore content websites. However, I'm not sure if the topic is widespread enough, so I'm asking here. Would list of gore websites be notable enough or not? Or should it perhaps be added to List of online video platforms? Or should such list even be included in Wikipedia? I know those websites are sometimes called shock sites, and the ones I know of, have very disturbing content in them, but since Wikipedia doesn't censor anything, I don't think that it would be an issue here either. --Pek (talk) 15:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

With such an article I'd ask what the definition of "gore websites" is and how you source that a given website is a "gore website". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, according to Wiktionary the word gore stands for; murder/bloodshed/violence. Can't really find any better definitions. So anything that is graphical and violent. Also, since when lists need to be sourced? Back in 2017 I made list of metal detecting finds and nobody asked me to source it. Also, the websites in this (list of online video platforms) also don't have references. --Pek (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

We know what gore is, we don't know what a gore website is (and, based on your descriptions, I don't want to know). Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 16:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Items on list articles need either their articles that show they should be on the list or referencing to allow verification that they should be on the list. Lists are also subject to notability per WP:NLIST, although this is usually a very easy standard to pass. Also you would need some kind of inclusion criteria, for instance why would news website that have videos including murder / bloodshed / violence not gore sites? I'm not saying they are, but how do you create an inclusion criteria that doesn't include them, etc. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I have tagged list of metal detecting finds as lacking sources. Even lists must be verifiable. – Teratix ₵ 21:05, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Compare Wikipedia:Glossary#uncited and Wikipedia:Glossary#verifiable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The point stands. – Teratix ₵ 22:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that lists must be verifiable. However, that one is verifiable (=sources exist in the real world). The problem with that list is that it's uncited. You could fix that problem yourself, if you wanted it done. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Sites like https://algore.com? 😀 Anomie⚔ 20:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

A separate list of shock sites is so 2006. Graham87 10:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:5P1... in particular: "not...an indiscriminate collection of information, nor a web directory." Jason Quinn (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

A place for non-encyclopaedic material

This probably qualifies as a truly misguided and crackpot idea, which is why I'm nervous of posting it even here in the Idea section, where crackpot is open for proposition, even if all it creates is a lovely firework display as it descends in multicoloured pyrotechnics, sinks, and is never seen again.

Could we have another parallel space beyond main-space and talk-space, where each article can have an "extra material" space? I'm proposing this to solve dilemmas such as useful original research, additional explanation of complex subjects, tables of relevant data, etc. etc.

For example, at Abbots Ripton rail accident we have a long and well-written article whose author has gone to the trouble of checking census reports to find out the subsequent career paths of people involved in this serious 1876 incident (see notes 14 and 19). They've included - unfortunately unsourced - background railway information that is extremely useful to the reader (e.g. note 2, concerning the intermediate caution position of an early semaphore signal). There is also quite a lot of logical deduction based on individual fact (eg notes 9 & 11 where our editor has carried out calculations of stopping distances and timings), and personal interpretations of opinion (e.g. note 4). The original research is a real problem to me; by rights it shouldn't be in the article, but since it's cited to something that a reader could potentially check (albeit a very primary source, 1881 census data) we've got as much reason to believe the research is true as we do any of the rest of the article, which means that I really, really don't want to delete it. The personal deductions are the same, and this editor's work does set the accident in context in a way that is lacking in the only cited source, the accident report.

So if we had an "extra material" space, we could move sourced original research into it, thereby preserving "encyclopaedic" articles without having to throw away valuable human knowledge and deduction.

An "extra material" space would also be useful in barely-comprehensible technical articles. Here there's often the dilemma that if anyone attempts to add explanatory material, it runs into editors who point out that we're not a text book, who respond that we aren't here to hold hands with the ignorant, and if someone can't understand the main article, the subject is beyond them. The maths world, for example, frowns on simple, explanatory material supported by references to textbooks, as these are seen as tertiary sources, doing a different job, not the "real deal". It's even more dubious about websites with teaching/explanatory material set up by university professors, even though these are often the most approachable explanatory material, and have been produced by people who are acknowledged as competent. So again, we could put explanatory stuff based on such sources in the "extra material" section.

I'm not proposing that it should be a junk-heap. It does need restrictions. I'd say "closely related to the subject and demonstrably true" should be a minimum.

Is this a completely disastrous idea? Elemimele (talk) 14:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Is this a completely disastrous idea? Probably.

sourced original research – isn't that an oxymoron?

Is this new namespace linked from the article? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Edward-Woodrow: Good questions. (1) Yes, a new linked namespace. It would mean that (some) articles would have three buttons at the top instead of two: "Article", "Talk" and "Extras" or some hopefully better alternative.

(2) By "sourced original research" I mean things like the Abbots Ripton "Notes" where the editor has gone to quite obscure primary sources (the 1881 census data) to work out what happened to the signalmen and stationmasters involved in this particular accident in their subsequent lives; and they've drawn conclusions from what they found (that the Abbots Ripton signalman can't have been regarded as too guilty by his superiors as he remained employed as a signalman). To my mind, this goes beyond what an encyclopaedia editor should do (summarise secondary sources) but is nevertheless "sourced original research" because they've indicated clearly from where they found their information. The synthesis aspect is less bothersome because the thought-process is obvious and the reader can either disagree or agree. Elemimele (talk) 15:05, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that this would turn into a monumental time-sink. Any content in a 'parallel space' would need monitoring for WP:BLP violations, breaches of copyright, vandalism, and the rest. And unless it was an utter free-for-all we'd still have to restrict what could be placed there, with the inevitable disputes, XfD discussions etc. If people want to publish original research, they have plenty of other options (Wikiversity might be appropriate for some), and facilitating it here is a distraction from the core purpose of the project - a tertiary encyclopaedia based on published sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I was just going to ask whether the OP was aware of Wikiversity? That sister project allows for some original research (such as analysis of primary source material to form original conclusions). Perhaps this is what you are seeking? Blueboar (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Or Wikibooks? I think Wikipedia:Transwiki-ing is the solution for this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikiversity appreciates good quality original research. We then could do with a link to the content if it has value. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Isn't this what WP:External links is for? RoySmith (talk) 16:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

That would help with professorial tutor-pages, but what am I supposed to do with the original research in Abbots Ripton? There isn't an external link because the Wikipedian did the research. But it's good research... Elemimele (talk) 18:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Still not something for Wikipedia, I think . Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 18:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with an editor using "quite obscure primary sources" so long as they hew to the restrictions in WP:PRIMARY. Although this is considered research outside Wikipedia, it is not what we call original research. Drawing conclusions from primary sources is what we call synth, and is forbidden. You can let the reader draw their own conclusions though. If you have some original research, you can publish it outside Wikipedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

That article is certainly waaay too detailed and too based on primary sources. Honestly I think fandom sites would be the best place for OR and such things. JoelleJay (talk) 00:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

There's no such thing as an article that is way too detailed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

No such thing as too detailed?

Anyway, I concur - there are many free options available for self-publishing original research, and if such research eventually becomes good enough it could even become a source for the article. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

...if such research eventually becomes good enough it could even become a source for the article. That depends on where it is published. - Donald Albury 12:32, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

One view is that the place for non-encyclopaedic material is in a non-encyclopedia, i.e. another site. However, you may be surprised at what is encyclopedic. Certes (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a very good idea, and its something that the WikiMedia foundation is missing in its mission to be the 'sum of all human knowledge'

This could be facilitated by linking Wikipedia articles entries in WikiData to a new project with your suggestion in scope

Additionally, there's no reason, in theory, why Wikipedia couldn't host discussion/OR/miscellania regarding an article on an appropriate subpage by changing the settings of its MediaWiki instance

What you're describing is something that the internet sorely needs. As it stands, people find information on a topic that isn't appropriate for Wikipedia by typing reddit.com/r/[TOPIC]. There are obvious flaws with this. A WikiMedia foundation alternative would be a great thing.

Such a space could operate as a forum, place for research, reference repository, and / or all manner of other things in respect of the entries we have on WikiData Jack4576 (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Iirc, Wikibooks allows original research and general purpose publications, and Wikiversity is more focused on textbooks for academic courses. Of course, it won't get nearly as much reach as Wikipedia, but they are alternatives. One does not have to resort to Fandom to write these sorts of things. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Everything2? I have occasionally found useful ORish things there unavailable anywhere else. It began in 1998 and has a massive amount of [mostly junky] content with some gems. -- GreenC 17:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  @GreenC: thanks for the suggestion, I'd never heard of Everything2. My first look confirms your view: a lot of rubbish, but a few genuine gems. Maybe that's why the idea of an OR/extras space in Wikipedia is not so great; it would also end up containing much more trash than value. I don't know... but I still haven't the heart to tackle Abbots Ripton! Elemimele (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Travel article external link spamming proposal

@Primefac has directed me to WP:VPR, but since I think this proposal still needs work, I’ll start here.

Past discussions of relevance: original discussion and external link blacklist request.

The general idea is that there should be a general sanction on editors of “Visa policy of COUNTRY” articles as these are prone to external link spamming of unofficial third-party travel/visa agency websites (with a risk of them being fraudulent too). And/or a protection policy regarding “high-risk” articles, since it’s usually IPs or newly created accounts who add these sorts of links.

See the original discussion above for links to examples of diffs where I removed inappropriate external links.

Per Primefac regarding a possible general sanction: maybe to also include "phone numbers in X" articles - spam is one thing but I have also noticed (both in the visa and phone number articles) that people have a really bad habit of putting incredibly personal info in these pages (visa ID numbers, phone numbers, etc), to the point where protecting it not only stops the spam but also decreases the proliferation of personal info that needs to be suppressed.

@Daniel Quinlan: for your info. Fork99 (talk) 09:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

What does it mean a general sanction on editors of “Visa policy of COUNTRY” articles? You mean anyone who edits these articles should be constrained (how) from doing (what)? -- GreenC 17:59, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean that’s why I brought it here, I’m not 100% sure how it should work. Initially, I proposed making a few exceptions to the page protection policy to preemptively (possibly pending changes protect) a few higher risk countries/articles that seem to be targeted by inappropriate external links. Fork99 (talk) 20:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I’ve come up with an interim solution in the meantime, and that is to add a piece of hidden text below the “External links” sub-heading of each article warning that links added should be discussed first at the talk page, any unofficial links placed will be deleted. It would also say that if they persist, their website will get blacklisted.

Something to the effect of:

<!-- ({{NoMoreLinks}}) --> <!-- DO NOT ADD MORE LINKS TO THIS ARTICLE. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A COLLECTION OF LINKS NOR IS IT A PLACE FOR ADVERTISING (WP:ADV) ----- If you think that your link might be useful, instead of placing it here, put it on this article's talk page first for editor discussion. Links that are to UNOFFICIAL travel and/or visa agency websites WILL BE DELETED. IF YOU PERSIST, YOUR WEBSITE WILL BE BLACKLISTED BY WIKIPEDIA AND/OR WIKIMEDIA. --> Fork99 (talk) 23:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't get your hopes up about that working too well. Check out the "editing box" here [1] for what I had to do in one article -- and it works only so-so. (That link might not work in the distant future when article sections have moved around.) EEng 23:56, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Top and tail the external links section then, perhaps? Hm yeah the things people obsess over on Wikipedia! Fork99 (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

You might have more success by reporting the websites to the Wikipedia:Spam blacklist. That should keep them out of all the articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Give the spammers warnings on their talk pages using the uw-spam series of warning templates so they’re duly warned. If they persist, blacklist.

Blacklisting may carry implications beyond Wikipedia; there are unconfirmed reports that other web sites or even search engines may also use or consult our blacklist. They don’t want to get on our blacklist!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

"Bibliography:" namespace

There's a somewhat contentious RFC going on in Wikipedia talk:Notability (academic journals) § RfC on notability criteria. While we almost certainly need a better SNG for journals, there is one point there that is confounding the issue to some degree. There is a valid (though not WP:PAG-backed) desire to include information on the sources Wikipedia uses to build its articles. It does make sense that we want to provide information to our readers about the sources we use to construct Wikipedia. But maybe trying to force encyclopedia articles about these sources is the wrong approach.

I think we could address this specific issue by creating a "Bibliography:" namespace, and allowing for bibliographic entries for journals or other sources, that don't need to hold up to WP:N. We can require a template at the top of each entry that makes it clear that "This is a Wikipedia bibliography entry for a source used in Wikipedia articles" with some verbiage noting that it's not an article itself etc. We'd require most policies and guidleiness to be met, with a specific different "notability" criterion allowing only for inclusion of bibliographic entries on sources that Wikipedia relies upon, e.g., Bibliography:Niche Reliable Journal.

A key for this namespace is that it would be intended primarily for readers, to give them information on what Wikipedia is using -- hence its purpose would be different from WP:RSN/WP:RSP, WP:CITEWATCH, etc which are meant for editors to evaluate sources.

What do you think? —siroχo 23:37, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I really like the bones of this idea, but I don't think a whole nother namespace is the solution. Couldn't we collate this sort of information under the auspices of a WikiProject? Folly Mox (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I think I might have misunderstood what you were suggesting. With the links to the discussions you led with, I thought you were talking about general information about the sources we cite, not a compilation how those sources are cited in articles, which seems more in line with a similar namespace created by fr.wp to hold citations for reuse. Or maybe I'm dumb and just don't understand what is being workshopped here at all. Folly Mox (talk) 00:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed I was I was thinking about general information about the sources we cite, intended for readers. Basically so we can provide some level of Wikipedia-style information on the resources we cite, even normally we would not construct an article about the source due to our policies and guidelines.

If folks see value in expanding such an effort into a compilation of how those sources are cited, I'd be intrigued but haven't put too much thought into that yet.

I am not sure if a WikiProject necessarily works, because those are generally groupings of editors and tasks/initiatives the editors want to work on, rather than meant for readers. —siroχo 00:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I personally love the idea of providing our readers more information about our editorial processes, including how we view our sources. I'm sure there exists a contrary perspective holding that the only reader-facing namespace should be article. I'm sure of this because it's a position I personally held just a season ago, as evidenced by my comment on a similar idea at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 202#Proposal to show the status of reliability within articles (which was geared towards RSP specifically rather than a bespoke bibliographical entry). Folly Mox (talk) 01:45, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Ohhh... I thought it was like a {{Harvard citation}} except they displayed on another page, so that the in-text references were minimalist and the longer reference was in a list in the Bibliography namespace. @Folly Mox: is this frwiki namespace active, or just a proposal? I'm curious. Thanks, Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 11:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

fr:Aide:Espace référence is, according to the Foundation's proposed citation reuse initiative, meta:WikiCite/Shared Citations, currently in use as of 2022 (I can't read French to verify). An easy way to consolidate and reuse citations, as well as holding metadata about their perceived reliability, comes up an awful lot. The WMF's proposal is appropriately the most thorough and ambitious, but I only know about it because this idea came up on this page last month, at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 50#Reliable source tracking on Talk pages. Folly Mox (talk) 12:03, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Based on my limited knowledge of French, it looks like it's a namespace for listings of information regarding multiple editions of a work (e.g., ISBN, pages, etc). Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 12:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, according to the example listed prominently on the associated WikiProjet, the namespace holds basic bibliographical information with citation template code for easy copypasta, but it looks like it could comfortably hold information about reliability, and presumably there's a way to program a module to fetch an appropriate reference from Référence: space and have it spit out the citation template you want, which would populate Special:WhatLinksHere for the associated reference. The module would probably only need per-cite specifics like |page=, |quote= etc. as optional parameters and you'd be up and running without needing to understand or fill out citation templates at all for any sources sufficiently detailed in the namespace under discussion. Folly Mox (talk) 12:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Could be useful – would help reduce clutter long citations cause. I believe wiktionary has something somewhat similar – a "citations" namespace dediacted to quotes supporting usage of the word. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 23:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

This could also be useful for newspapers as well. Curbon7 (talk) 01:18, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think this would be a much better place to host all the journal articles that amount to nothing more than a non-independent primary database entry. One of my concerns in the "are journals in selective citation indices inherently notable" RfC is the fact that readers/editors coming across our journal articles will assume they are like any other Wikipedia non-biography article and have met GNG, and thus expect that the prose content will be a summary of independent secondary reliable SIGCOV (or at least has the potential for this) rather than a pure derivative of ABOUTSELF. A namespace dedicated to curating bibliographic data, where there is no expectation that an entry is based on IRS SIGCOV (or has received such, even if not cited), wouldn't mislead people into thinking a homeopathy journal is reputable just because the article doesn't mention any criticism of it. JoelleJay (talk) 02:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

If it is data about sources, then Wikidata is the place to put it. Then every Wikipedia can use it. Perhaps we can have a way to more neatly present the info to English language readers from the data, but I don't think we need a name space. We used to have doi's as templates. But I would think that Wikipedia: is better than Template: for this. But a template could interpret the wikidata to display. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:38, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:" namespace is meant for editors. I'm hoping to find a way to provide information to readers about the sources used to construct the encyclopedia, especially when articles don't exist for the sources due to notability reasons. Wikidata may be a good answer for this, but how would we display it to readers? —siroχo 06:03, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm a little bit sus about outsourcing information to Wikidata. It's really good at what it does, but it is a different project, so it's difficult to keep an eye on for changes, it acts as a black box when chasing down errors, and the learning curve is pretty steep. The other, other, other time the idea of a separate namespace for citation reuse came up recently at the VPs, at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 197#Migrating inline references to a separate 'References' space, the Wikidata solution was characterised as a non-starter.

Wikidata is great for uh data, but if we're concerned with things like subjective assessments of reliability, we're going to lose a lot of important context in translation. I'll close with the perennial reminder that reliability can only be properly assessed at the intersections of sources and the claims they make. Folly Mox (talk) 12:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry when I said I'll close, I meant my comment, not the discussion! Sure, let's make a Reference: namespace while WikiCite is approved, roadmapped, developed, and launched. Why not give it a go? Folly Mox (talk) 19:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Subsection

See also: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 202 § Proposal to show the status of reliability within articles

See also: Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 50 § Reliable source tracking on Talk pages

See also: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 197 § Migrating inline references to a separate 'References' space

• Desideratum: central storage for bibliographic information (including built in citation templates and source analysis by editors)
• Theory of change: I don't know what this means, so I'm including it to make myself look dumber.
• Technical requirements
  • a new namespace, with a unique identifier that doesn't just lead to us reinventing Wikidata or Worldcat in-house (i.e. human readable and ideally guessable)
  • a per-item set of mutable and immutable parameters (so we can always fetch author and title etc. but vary in page number, edition, |ref= for different shortened footnote styles, etc.)
  • a module that translates a Referencespace call into an appropriate citation template in a way that links the Reference and the target visibly in both directions
  • links to and from RSN and either a section of the Reference or its Reference Talk page.
• Benefits
  • executed properly, citing sources is greatly reduced in hassle and duplicated work
  • reliability of sources around some claim or category of claims is easy to locate, same for independence of that source with respect to other entities
  • scripts automatically generating citations from Referencespace items will always be correct and complete
  • partially complete existing citations to a source available in Referencespace can be turned into complete ones en masse
  • internal "citation impact": we can see what is cited and how often, easy to generate interesting reports for internal and external use
  • to the extent the space is populated, it creates an annotated bibliography of the encyclopaedia
  • new citation template parameters can be added once to populate everywhere
  • a translator module to import a commonly used citation data format could create these by the lots, cutting back on entry labour
  • abnegates the need for any further custom templates for citing a specific source, since it's basically a general case of that
  • could be integrated into VisualEditor so newcomers can cite way better easily
• Problem areas
  • Unique identifiers. If we use anything other than what a human would think of when naming a reference, this makes it more difficult to cite, because you have to search the namespace first just to figure out how to cite the thing you want. We'll need a lot of redirects and there will be a lot of conflicts between sources with similar parameters.
  • Also since we only want one set of reliability discussions and publisher information per source, we might have to organise the whole namespace by work rather than by title, making it extra complicated.
  • We're not going to be able to put every source in here (every weather report from every news station ever cited? every obituary? every Olympedia entry? there's no way), so sometimes we'll be able to use the namespace while sometimes we'll have to use a regular citation template, and it's extra effort to identify which case we're operating under.
  • Some sources are identical at multiple URLs, and / or multiple DOIs. Do we pick one? If not, do we list the known options? Should we allow manual override of every template parameter, just in case?
  • Similarly, what about articles with different citation styles? Do we have multiple officially valid output templates? A single style parameter that can switch between popular options?
  • Can {{sfnp}} and {{harvnb}} be made to work across namespaces like this, or will they always generate no-target errors?
  • Also, we're pushing the boundaries of what is appropriate for the project and what is appropriate for Wikidata, the (hopefully) future WikiCite, etc. Risking a lot of duplicated effort.
  • There's also potential for abuse, like someone changing the |work=The Sunday Times to |work=i peed in your car or |work=[[File:commons:Porn but somehow also racist.tif]] and having it transclude to a thousand articles on load instantaneously until all the caches are purged.
  • Oh right all the data entry as well

Idk does this seem like a thing that's possible? The benefits seem really good, but the work seems super a lot. Does a smaller scope make sense? How would the scope be ensmalled? Would it still be worth it? Is there any intersection point between costs and benefits with a positive ROI? If we did outsource this to Wikidata, how on earth would that look?

Apologies for the disorganised thoughts. I did the best I could with the bullet points. Folly Mox (talk) 03:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

This is awesome, thanks, no apology necessary. I'll respond in kind, just some more thoughts :) We can address this grand plan but start with a smaller scope. I think this could be approached in steps so as not to make it take too much effort.

Milestone 1

1. Decide on inclusion criteria.
   • Is it literally a bibliography for every source Wikipedia uses? Probably not. Set some reasonable guidelines.
   • Do we want citation-level items, or only full works (Journals, Books, Newspapsers, etc) I think for the first milestone we probably just need the full work to get us rolling.
2. Settle on a format for how sources are "written about" in the bibliography. Much of it could be structured data as you suggest (special infoboxes, basically?). There would be some amount of prose allowed, since we want all types of readers to be able to benefit.
3. Create namespace. This is milestone 1. We have something useful to readers (and editors) at this point. This largely addresses the notability problem, where we have no way to communicate to readers about some of the sources we use.

Milestone 2

1. (just an idea) Automatically point redlinks only in citation templates to Bibliography entries if they exist to make it easier for readers to learn about a source we use.

Milestone 3

1. Start allowing individual papers, chapters, articles, etc. They should probably be subpages of the main bibliography entry. Eg. if you have Bibliography:Nature, you could have Bibliography:Nature/My Paper, This is not wikidata, we need it to be primarily human readable, with structured data as a bonus. As such, disambiguation, PRIMARYTOPIC, redirects, etc are fine and should be embraced. My preference is to benefit the human, both reader and editor.
2. At this point, updating citation templates to allow use of the available structured data becomes valuable. Something like {{cite-bib|bib:Nature/My Paper|page=13}}. (Yes, there are good faith accidental move and vandalism risks here to be discussed.)

Milestone 4+

1. All the other nice things you mentioned and more. Fancy bots to do things we haven't thought of yet, visual editor, etc.

—siroχo 05:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Having unique identifiers rather than the details appearing in the article proper would make it much harder for novice editors to correct any obvious errors they find issue. Instead of simply correcting the details in the article they would have to learn that these unique identifiers where, find the one in the article, and then change what they know needs to be changed in the new namespace. After which they would probably be reverted, as what they actually needed to do was use a different unique identifier that already has the different details that are required in the article.

Or more simply new users would give up, as they already do with another implementation of this idea. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

What to do with User:Jaiquiero redirects

User:Jaiquiero who has been blocked for disruptive editing, has created a multitude of redirects (over 50), a few of which are good, some of which I R3'd, and many which I'm hesitant to R3, but should still be considered for deletion – many are unlikely search terms or just pointless. Taking these remainders to RfD would be an incredible waste of time and effort. What should be done? Pinging Ivanvector who, at RfD, suggested Delete all effectively per WP:X1. Mass- and likely automated creation of barely-plausible redirects is net negative for Wikipedia, and the creator is blocked for exactly that. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I mentioned WP:X1 because it was a temporary emergency criterion we created to address nonsensical redirects created by a different user, but in that case there were many more redirects - at one point a list was compiled of that user's redirects that had 50,072 entries, and that excluded any that had been edited by any other editor. And they were far more obviously nonsense than Jaiquiero's: just before being banned and action being taken, the user created 126 redirects to micromastia, including such titles as "tuberous boobies", "diminutive titties", "minute breasts", "little tits", and "herniated areolar complexes". They also created all 126 of those over a span of one hour and 25 minutes. Actually much of their later work had to do with breast ailments, but earlier they had focused on nonsensical modifications of dictionary words, like classificationally, occasionalness, or violetishness. The criterion was created because there was resistance to just mass-deleting every one of their redirects, as a tiny proportion were deemed useful but we didn't want to have every one listed at RFD. It took many editors two and a half years to go through them all. An admin commented on Jaiquiero's talk page that of 3,871 articles they created, 3,610 have already been deleted, which seems like a lot but is a blip compared to the user we created X1 for. Also, my X1 comment was in reference to a different user's redirects from these two, and they've been blocked as a sockpuppet so G5 applies to those anyway.

To answer the question, if there is an affirmative consensus that all of Jaiquiero's redirects should be deleted, then that's all that's needed for an admin to mass-delete them - they can just refer to that discussion (or this discussion, if that's what we're doing), or any other user could tag them WP:G6 and refer to the discussion. Probably this should be happening at WP:ANI, though. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that if you have already been through the lot, then it may be possible for others to join in a bulk RFD for the ones you are hesitating on. So if you can open up a discussion for them and list the ones you are unsure on in one big RFD, it should do it justice. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Edward-Woodrow, you are right in saying that Jaiquiero has created "over 50" redirects, well over 50. In fact the account made a total of 3,420 redirects, of which all but 36 have now been deleted. Not quite up to Neelix's level, but still grossly excessive. JBW (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I have just checked a random sample of 10 of the remaining redirects. Two were, in my opinion, perfectly good redirects. Four seemed to me sufficiently pointless that I can't imagine anyone would bother to create them, but they are relevant enough that now they exist I feel they may as well stay. that leaves four which in my opinion were so pointless that I deleted them under speedy deletion criterion R3; they were either redirects from a subject with some connection to the topic of the target article but not actually mentioned there or just redirects from arbitrary modifications to the name of the article subject which nobody would actually be likely to search for. I did not see any of the grossly unsuitable redirects which Jaiquiero made; perhaps they have all been deleted already. JBW (talk) 19:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Multinational bands and music groups

The vast majority of bands and music groups are based in a single country with performers from that country. Most articles begin "Bandname is a Nationese genretype band", such as The Velvet Underground was an American rock band. Today, more multinational bands are being formed, either by corporations, producers or because performers migrate or co-locate. In such cases a national descriptor without specific detail may become misleading. Editors have different views about nationality or may rely on poorly-researched entertainment media or compromise on a dual-national descriptions. Debatable descriptors appear in Alias (band), Kamelot, Kaachi, Le Sserafim, Sculptured, The Pretenders, The Band, Rainbow_(rock_band) and many more.

The assumption in the guidelines under Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music is that performers and composers are individual. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography is helpful but assumes individuals. In contrast Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film explain how to describe multinational productions. I started some unfruitful discussion here at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music. I propose inserting a 4th point under Nationality to avoid implying something false about any principal performer's known nationality, when applying a band/group's national descriptor. Travelmite (talk) 08:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Why not just say "x is a multinational *something* band yadda yadda yadda"? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, or even "is a *something* band yadda yadda yadda", and explain the multinationalism in a later sentence. I think Travelmite has a good general point, but we do not need to prescribe a specific approach; it will vary by article. E.g. "is a *something* band based in Nigeria with members from Nigeria and Sengal" or whatever. I think it's correct that we need to say something about not misleadingly identifying a multinational band and a national one; e.g. "is a Nigerian band, with some members also from Sengal" is potentially confusing and smacks of a "put a national identifer on everyone and everything" fetishism.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

My starting point is Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons which strictly prohibits inserting a contentious descriptor to a person, even by implication. In everyday language, a Nationese group is a group of Nationese. Readers are more likely to assume bands and performance groups, are friends to each other, rather than as a corporate entity. Local fans often write such pages and feel it's just normal to think this band is Nationese. Travelmite (talk) 09:03, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe that's not quite a complete description of the BLP policy? Contentious descriptors are approved by WP:BLP if the "person is commonly described that way in reliable sources". Also, BLP doesn't apply to corporations, businesses, or other groups (except to the extent that people make up these groups). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The BLP policy line you've quoted is under Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Tone and specifically refers to contentious labels and loaded words such as "sexist, terrorist or freedom fighter" as per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Contentious_labels. It could be contentious to describe a performer as an "icon", "famous" or "controversial", however in this discussion we are talking about the mundane fact of the performer's nationality, which would not be disputed by reliable sources. I have already discussed legal entities, like corporations. Are you suggesting that when people read "Nationese rock band" it forms a Legal person rather than a group of people? Travelmite (talk) 13:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Paris Combo, which has had members from France, Australia, Algeria, and Madagascar, has started with "Paris Combo is a musical group based in Paris, France ..." for more than 17 years. The countries of origin of the members are only listed in the Members section. Donald Albury 18:01, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, some articles are factually-written and that is not a problem. Travelmite (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Refideas notification upon editing an article

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while now, so I'm testing to see what interest there might be. Plenty of people park good sources on article talk pages using Template:Refideas when they don't have time or interest in working on the article themselves, or perhaps don't know what to do with the sources, and/or generally hope that someone will be able to use them at some point. It's a great idea, but part of the problem is that... people don't look at the talk page as often as they could, so these sources may sit there unused for a very long time, even on a frequently edited article.

So here is an idea, I don't know if it would be technically feasible, and I don't know if people think it would generally clutter up a page, but how about when someone hits "Edit" on an article that is using the Refideas template on the talk page, they get maybe something like a little yellow box above the editing window with a single short sentence saying something like "There are suggestions for sources on the talk page that you may find useful." Does that sound doable and something that people would appreciate?

This would be especially useful for both people looking into whether an article should be deleted (oh, look, there are good sources after all, never mind), as well as people with a genuine interest in improving an article who have the time to put the work in. How does this sound as an idea? BOZ (talk) 22:55, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Excellent plan. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @Timur9008, @KGRAMR @JimmyBlackwing, and @Sciencefish as I think I have seen them using Refideas the most. BOZ (talk) 23:04, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

+1 I will never be able to use all the sources I park in refideas. I think this proposal will help improve the encyclopedia. Donald Albury 00:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I've added refs to hundreds of talk pages but I've always been aware that they may go unseen. If there was some kind of notification, it would most likely help. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:51, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Great idea!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I do like this idea, but apparently the use case for {{Refideas}} – which I didn't know existed – is how I've been using the ==Further reading== section 🙃 Folly Mox (talk) 02:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey, I get it, I've done that myself, which apparently rankled some people, so that's part of what led me to this idea. :) I'm feeling some unanimous support here so far so I'm planning to add it to proposals in the near future. :) BOZ (talk) 11:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Late reply but the idea sounds nice :) Timur9008 (talk) 13:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree in thinking that this would be helpful. Typically, I use refideas as just a place to dump sources for my own use, but this change would encourage other editors to look at those sources, which otherwise would be hidden away. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I have done due diligence search but can't find these being asked previously

Hi,

I am curious about/seeking answers to...
 
1. Why does the landing page not automatically place the cursor in the search
box so someone can start typing straight away instead of having to click in
the box first?
 
2. It would make use much easier if the search box remained static at the top
of the screen when scrolling down an article so a new search could be
immediately initiated instead of having to return to the top of the page.
 
Thoughts gratefully received,
 
Richard 90.242.188.126 (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Re 2.: When you are logged in with an account there is a sticky header bar that includes a magnifying class. When you click it a search field opens. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 10:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

True for desktop. Mobile users have to do a full scroll to the top. Frustratingly, on some devices / browsers this is the same gesture that will reload the page if done too quickly. Folly Mox (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

(The OP appears to have posted from the desktop site.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

In the android app (and presumably the ios app) you only have to scroll up a little for the header to appear (at least when you're logged in). -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Q1: Wikipedia:FAQ/Main_Page#Why_doesn't_the_cursor_appear_in_the_search_box,_like_with_Google?. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:47, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Changes to ITN

Please do not discuss the possibility of abolishing ITN outright here; I'm interested in generating a proposal to change it. It is clear that ITN is unsustainable as presently constituted. In some ways it is very toxic, and there are frequently long periods without any postings. I was once a frequent participant there, but have reduced my involvement due to the environment there. I think that many of these issues can be reduced if notability/merit were taken out of discussions at ITNC, and that only article quality and recentness be criteria. Other areas of the Main Page have criteria to meet and not much discussion. I might propose the following as a starting point, but I don't claim to have all the answers- actually, no, I don't have all the answers.

An article about an event receiving news coverage may be posted to ITN if it meets the following criteria:

1. the event occurred in the previous 7 days(as it is now)
2. the event receives original reporting in more than one news outlet
3. a preexisting article related to the event receives a quality update of at least five sentences, or a new article is created of at least three paragraphs
4. "Quality update" means no orange maintenance tags or deletion process underway

The purpose of discussion at ITNC would be to determine a blurb, the quality of the update, and if needed, what image to display. If implemented, this would obviate the need for WP:ITNR and that could be marked as historical.

Too many postings is not a problem ITN seems to have. There is often several days without a new post- too many valid postings is a problem that I would want to have. There is also fear that it would turn ITN into a celebrity news outlet- what's the issue there if there is a quality article update? I often see the criticism that ITN is just about death, disaster, destruction, and maybe elections. Variety is good and improving articles is good. This would also allow for more postings from underserved areas where one editor might have done good work improving a news article about an event from an underserved area.

Thanks for any ideas that you might have. 331dot (talk) 16:53, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Not opposing this proposal myself, but isn't the counterargument against this the WP:NOTNEWS argument? I agree with you that ITN could or should have more postings, but it seems that others argue that ITN is not meant to be a "news ticker". Natg 19 (talk) 17:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Two frequent objections that get brought up when similar ideas are floated are "We're going to turn into a US ticker!" and (as you mention) "We're going to get flooded with news about the Kardashians!". The solution to both of these is the same as over at DYK: limit stories relating to any particular country to no more than one half the blurbs, and to any particular subject area to no more than a quarter. In practice, that's 2 and 1 (with a typical four blurbs) compared to DYK's 4 and 2 (of 8 hooks). —Cryptic 17:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Unlike DYK where the whole of human knowledge is available and thus limiting topics from the same area is possible, no one can control how news happens. If ITN ends up with every topic about one country or from one topic area (like sports), that's just the way it happens. Masem (t) 17:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

If we have a half-dozen postable candidates every day and a seven-day backlog to pull from, then we can pick and choose. And if we happen to get separate earthquakes on the same day that dump both San Francisco and Tokyo into the sea, that's what WP:IAR is for. —Cryptic 17:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that we often don't get blurbable candidates on some days. That can be a combination of a slow news day and a lack of volunteer effort to nominate and/or improve an article. If the ITNC throughput fwas much higher, it would be great to have a backlog of ITNs ready to go so we can try to do some balance managing. But outside the period of Nobel Prize award week, I have rarely seen anything that approached that backlog. Masem (t) 17:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Then we can delay or decline an update, or we can replace another blurb; or maybe we make the limits advisory ("try really hard not to run three Dutch blurbs at once") instead of being stated as absolutes, or apply only if there's alternate blurbs to pick from. —Cryptic 17:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I think we need to address the failure of the community as a whole to follow the principles of NOTNEWS and NEVENT, which bleeds into some of the problems at ITN. We are creating articles on every event that gets some type of immediate coverage, and where we have existing articles, we are overly detailed on events as the break (eg see our COVID timeline articles for how bad this is). We need to keep the mindset WP is not a newspaper, and we do include current events, it should be towards comprehensive summary of a topic. We also look towards enduring coverage of events, rather than the burst if coverage.

With this kept in mind and better application if NOTNEWS, we should hopefully get coverage of topics from a broader spectrum of fields (eg we typically are woefully shy on medical and scientific items) where the articles are of high quality when they become news. Its why the mantra "ITN us not a news ticker" is there so that we are looking for a diverse array of topics that have demonstrated long term relevance than simply resorting to reading news headlines. Masem (t) 17:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

What does "long term relevance" mean? Natg 19 (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

For this purpose, it would be WP:LASTING and WP:PERSISTENCE. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

In the case of current events,is often the case that neither WP:LASTING nor WP:PERSISTENCE is known with any certainty, so this will be a guess. What is known for certainty is that the people here are poor at estimating them, and usually underestimate. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

+1. It doesn't help that AfD is often visited by the same few regulars, many of whom believe that "it was in the news" means it received secondary coverage. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I've been basically calling for the implementation of this system for months now; we clearly cannot agree on what notability is, with the vagueness of ITN being literally inscripted on WP:ITN, so why not just reduce nota standards to a base amount of basic variables. I'm always amused how people would openly state, "this shouldn't be posted to our front page because it doesn't fit my notability standards" and how that would just be tolerated on ITN. In the past, I've stated that "if a subject has an article, and you don't think its of encyclopedic significance to be included on ITN, then you know where to go." People keep screaming about how we will become like TMZ or whatever, and I honestly think that this whole anti-celebrity news mantra you see on a somewhat ubiquitous scale on ITN is just a lazy placeholder of an argument used to tear down noms they don't like, pulling on the popularity of hating popularity to garner support. For example, there have been repeated calls by some to have a link to WP:25 or have some sort of "trending topics" page related to ITN, and it's been shut down since "We'Ll bEcOmE lIke MsM oR tMz." Hell, the Titan submersible incident had people dismissing as celebrity news and comparing it to Anne Heche's death. Additionally, as Snow Rise (talk · contribs) once brilliantly pointed out, on Wikipedia, we follow what WP:RSes say, so for ITN to go against that since some users have a vendetta against some story is hogwash. But alas, as Snow again stated, this push of mine hasn't been popular since some of the regulars there won't be able to dictate what's notable or not based on vibes. We all know ITN is fundamentally broken, but we're so fragmented and polarized that we can't even come to a consensus to compromise on the most minor of issues. — Knightoftheswords 17:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

This essentially says what I was going to say. I've also advocated this approach, and I've criticized the editors at ITN for creating a closed off bubble from the rest of the project that sees fit to ignore WP:OR, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:CONSENSUS. The time has long since passed for the community as a whole to implement changes to ITN, as the regular participants have essentially come up with their own rules and are unwilling to budge from them. I've lost count of how many times someone's argument in a discussion was challenged at ITN because "we don't do that at ITN". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Besides the issue with TOP25 being more beholden to pop culture interests, there is no quality control for articles listed at Top25, which fails a necessary facet of being on featured on the main page. Also "we follow what RSes say" only applies to WP:V, it doesn't factor into other p&g, like notability.

What I don't think many complainers (who are generally those relatively new to UTN) get us that is that ITN was made to feature quality articles that happened to be in the news. This included articles created in a high quality form within hours of an event happening, like 9/11 or Jan 6. What we are seeing is more demand to follow the news, leading to article of okay quality but not what we'd consider anywhere close to the expectations of TFA or DYK ones. Which is why ITNC discussions can be diversity as I'd guess half of the regulars are looking for good encyclopedic articles while the other half are looking for newsworthiness and timeliness. Masem (t) 20:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I just feel like you can't have defined ITN criteria that allows ITN to function for it's stated purpose with a simple streamlined set of rules defining "notability". That is why "the event receives original reporting in more than one news outlet" is a problem, because like past proposals designed to grant any news item automatic ITN inclusion for being covered by a certain number of sources, we are then beholden to what the media in a general sense thinks is important, and given most publications operate online now, they post countless articles a day, meaning if you have, say, 20 set publications you are looking across, you probably have dozens of stories that all of them have covered in some way. In a sense, there has to be a "do people care" aspect to any ITN posting. I know we bash his approach a lot, but Andrew is certainly not completely off point in citing readership as it pertains to certain news stories. Not that ITN should operate by readership (which will be biased towards stupid celebrity drama, movies, stuff like that most of the time), but it is valid to ask the question of "do our readers give a you-know-what about this news item?" That is why ITN/R has seen a decent scaling back in the past year, as many have questioned just how vital for posting certain stories are (ie, very few care about the Boat Race, the launch of a new type of rocket, or G7 summits where nothing of note is resolved). I think, as I have opined in the past, ITN needs more voices and less red-tape, so as to allow us to more properly judge what people believe is important and of the public interest. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the four proposed criteria constitute reasonable minimal criteria. I would like to see stricter/clearer criteria for overall article quality. Maybe something like "the article must have GA status". -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

No, that is a non-starter GA review takes time - something that we do not have if we want to post relevant, current news. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

That is certainly true for cases where a new article is created. I still think we need some kind of quality criteria. Maybe another way to go at this is to make a list of issues an article may not have, e.g. lack of citations, ongoing disputes about WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:OR, ... -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I guess that is at least partially covered by criterion 4. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I believe this should be covered by #4. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The minimum quality standard for ITN is already, broadly, pretty much the same as DYK. Curbon7 (talk) 04:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment on criteria I quite like this list of criteria, but obviously No. 4 (requirement of no quality-tags or deletion processes) must be applied with common sense. There have been accusations of toxicity in ITN in the past, and it would be a real pity if people decided to game the system by deliberately putting articles into AfD or sticking debateable maintenance tags on them to exclude something they don't like (though in practice, subjects that appear in the news will attract more attention, so they may acquire quite honest maintenance/deletion tags). It's not insurmountable: basically there just has to be an appreciation that if people game the system and mess around, they're liable to be topic-banned. Comment on regionality This debate has been prompted by an ANI debate, in turn prompted by concerns about whether it's okay to put UK-news on ITN given the global position of en-WP, and whether opposition to this was xenophobia. I suggested that a technical solution might be to have region-specific material. ANI wasn't the right place to raise it, and the one response suggested it might be impractical and imperfect. But I'm mentioning it here because it might help to deal with the lack of updates; if people felt able to add regionally-relevant ITN's, we might get more coverage. It might be appropriate to allow logged-on readers to specify their region (so, for example, a UK-interested person living in Mauritius could opt for UK-ITN). But I don't know if there is any mechanism to deduce the approximate locale of an IP user. Elemimele (talk) 18:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I like the criteria. Maybe #2 could be a bit more stringent, to avoid super-trivial local news? Along the lines of "# the event receives original reporting in at least three news outlet from at least two different countries". Khuft (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think that we should see if that is actually a problem before doing something about it. The first priority right now should be a change period, we can always tinker as time progresses. 331dot (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I guess there could be a pilot phase where we would see how it works in practice. And sorry, forgot to mention that I support your idea overall! One more thing to consider: RD Blurbs. I think we should forbid them. Deaths would simply be covered by RD; only assassinations & the like would get blurbed. Khuft (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Per that definition Queen Elizabeth- the head of state of several nations- would not have merited a blurb; but I think that issue should be considered separately. The more changes we try to make, the harder it will be to gain consensus- and it's already going to be challenging. 331dot (talk) 21:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  The death of Queen Elizabeth II would have been blurbed under your criteria (+ the RD Blurb restriction) because it resulted in a change of monarch in the UK. So it's shouldn't be a showstopper. Khuft (talk) 21:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Page view data indicates that the readers are nowhere near as discriminating as Wikipedians on the ITN/C talk page and will eagerly gobble up the latest doings of the Kardashians. When it comes to regionalism, xenophobia is the real problem. The biggest manifestation is the attempt to insulate American readers from the reality of a global internet. The reader in Mauritius is quite used to news feeds on overseas events and will not be put off by the Bundesliga results. Given our global scope and our educational mission, I advocate dropping the concept of regional relevance, and a lower bar for blurbs. Readers in the UK can and will accept news from Mauritius . Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  I've been considering a notion of ITN as an easy-access box for readers rather than a place for editors to prove that Wikipedia is for siriuz bidness. I'd like ITN's contents to overlap substantially with articles that will appear in the Signpost's traffic report – things readers are looking for, that have been updated recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Most RD blurbs will be ruled out by criterion #3, "a quality update of at least five sentences". —Cryptic 22:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Criterion #2 is unbelievably loose. Every individual F1 race or tennis tournament would get posted on ITN. Every death of a famous person would get posted on ITN (need 5 sentences? just gather a bunch of social media reactions!). Every regional election would get posted on ITN. The season finale of every reality competition show would get posted on ITN. -- Kicking222 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  Almost all deaths are covered by RD. Only those where the death itself is an event would go to ITN(as it is now). The end of a TV show is not generally newsworthy. The rest I don't see what the problem is. People writing and reading more articles is a good thing, not bad. 331dot (talk) 00:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Agree. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I looked at the first example I thought of, the finale for the most recent season of "American Idol" (a show that is no longer hugely relevant and that many people forget still exists). There was SO MUCH news coverage from reliable sources. Someone could unquestionably, undoubtedly create enough of an update that, under your criteria, would breeze onto the main page. Stories would last maybe a few hours in most cases- hell, all of ITN would get wiped out every weekend thanks to golf, tennis, auto racing, MMA, pro wrestling, etc. I'm starting to think you haven't even considered the ramifications of your proposal- which would, in essence, turn into ITN into a 24-hour news ticker and nothing more. Kicking222 (talk) 21:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Which values would that contradict? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  Kicking222 I have about ten years of experience off and on with ITN so I am well aware of what I think ramifications might be. I don't think it would be as bad as you claim, and I also don't see the problem if it were. We shouldn't have super-notability for ITN; if a topic isn't notable enough for ITN it should not be notable enough for Wikipedia. Too many postings is a problem I would love for ITN to have because it would mean that people are working on and improving articles. 331dot (talk) 19:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I find Masem's comment somewhere above resonating with me, about topic areas of ITN coverage. As I write this, the current stories are of the form: politician inaugurated; politician elected; criminal receives sentence; sporting event concludes. Meanwhile the ongoing events are: natural disaster, organised violence, organised violence, organised violence. Honestly, I'd almost prefer if some pointless celebrity gossip were included to round it out.

I do take WhatamIdoing's point close above how the service to the reader will align with links they would likely arrive at by other means (search, search from external site), but I feel like there's a whole lot of life missed out on when ITN blurbs fall almost exclusively into politics, sports, violence, and extreme weather events.

I get trying to represent more regions more fairly, but this is the inadequate representation that vibes more with me. What if we had three open slots, where any story whose article meets quality critera could socket into, one slot for anything not US/UK, and one slot for anything but politics, sport, violence, and extreme weather events? Folly Mox (talk) 23:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

That might work. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I actually really like the idea you make in the third para. Curbon7 (talk) 06:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this, I'm not sure if it's logistically possible (or at least logistically uncomplicated). The issue is that the number of blurbs constantly changes due to WP:ITNBALANCE; just recently, there have been times where there are as many as 7 blurbs and as few as 3. I'd be interested in workshopping this, as I think it is a meritorious idea, but it should be straight-forward for the sake of both participants and admins. Curbon7 (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh I agree that my simplistic 3+1+1 idea hastily jotted down on the way out the door for sure requires workshopping. I never even knew of the existence of WP:ITNBALANCE. It doesn't have any effect on or benefit to mobile view. That has to be a weird feeling, to have the output of your consensus process directly affected by prose wording from two unrelated processes like a second class citizen. Folly Mox (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"one slot for anything not US/UK" I would go even further and say "one slot for anything not North America or Western Europe". That might encourage more quality work on geographic areas that are underrepresented on Wikipedia. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, I think we should make the more general change first before tinkering with it. The more complicated the proposal, the harder it will be to gain consensus to do it. 331dot (talk) 17:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't mean to be a downer, nor to start consensus polling, but I quite frankly find nothing wrong with the ITN status quo. Maintaining notability requirements for blurbs is essential for not crowding out the really important news stuff from ITN (I know this is essentially a WP:FASTCYCLE argument, but that whole essay only applies when there even is notability to be argued about). Similar to RfA, ITN has its practices and customs that have developed over a decade and a half and I feel that they serve useful functions and oughtn't be removed. I'd actually rather see ITN abolished altogether than have "free rein" without any feelings of overall importance. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

In establishing what a notable event for ITN is, prospective reformers would be prudent to grant a degree of leniency while ensuring that ambiguity does not cloud purpose. This proposal does not particularly impose clear restrictions on what ITN coverage entails. If one were to seriously considering standardizing ITN notability—a daunting task itself—one would need to establish the elements of a proper nomination. A proper set of ITN guidelines assumes inequality in what stories are presented to ITN. A mass shooting in which eight people are killed would be exceptional for Norway but above-average for the United States. ITN cannot function if context is absent. On a grander scale, stories need to hold individual merit; celebrity news will never meet that requirement because celebrity news is inherently tabloid, but the change of a head of state or major scientific discovery is "in the news". Lucy Letby's conviction is internal news to the United Kingdom. It holds no global significance and is not particularly exceptional in the U.K. With regards to ITN's processes, I take no issue with the consensus system. However, consensus is difficult to achieve with geographic differences and systemic bias. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 06:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The ITN box is big enough to easily hold 4-6 thumbnail pictures, and still have room for the Ongoing and RD tickers at the bottom. I would get rid of blurbs and replace them with pictures. The "significance" criteria should be replaced with something objective and measurable, like "front page coverage in multiple national newspapers outside the country where the event occurred." I don't agree with the 5-sentences/3-paragraphs rule for "recently updated" -- in fact, we don't need a rule for that at all; if it's front page coverage in multiple national newspapers outside the country where the event occurred, it's 100% guaranteed to have been updated in a Wikipedia article somewhere (or a new article created). I think "no" orange tags is too strict for quality -- some tags are OK, it depends on the tag. I think the one place where some subjectivity is OK is quality. Levivich (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

First, what are "front page headlines" in today's digital world is an impossible metric as spelled out on the ITN pages. But moreover if we did that we would succuum to the Western/US/UK bias that global media has. For example, we have just posted the Indian moon lender's arrival...That ain't going to be a front page topic against to-night GOP debates or Trump and codefendents turning themselves in. We need to have encyclopedic considerations of what topics that have been in the news that should be posted to avoid the systematic bias of the media. Masem (t) 20:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Here are paper front page headlines in today's digital world. The India moon landing happened today; it'll be in the world's papers tomorrow as it's already on the websites. You can look at this morning's world front pages and see that BRICS is getting far more coverage than Trump or GOP debates. The evidence contradicts your assumptions. Levivich (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The landing only just happened today so it won't be flecked for another 24hr. And to add to.the craziness of the news we have the plane crash in Russia. While India's success will likely be big in India, there's too much else that the media will grab onto to bury that elsewhere. That is we'd never see major scientific milestones at all, nor most elections, nor most sporting events, if we stuck to headlines. We want diversity of topics at ITN, so following the importance given by the press fails that. Masem (t) 21:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

You can click that link now and see the India moon landing on the front page of today's papers in China, Germany, Saudi Arabia, UAE, among others. The Russian plane crash is also all over the world's front pages. Not Trump or GOP or American politics. Levivich (talk) 04:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Levivich; and I want to expand ITN and make it less focused on notability and newness. Cover more topics. Andre🚐 21:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you really want to make "In The News" be less about what's in the news? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

If you want ITN to be something other than ITN, that would probably be better discussed with its abolition, below. 331dot (talk) 19:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

That could be easily be solved, though, by defining a broader range of media that would be considered reputable global media. Off the top of my head, we could consider the Times of India, the South China Morning Post, the Straits Times, Al Jazeera - and these are just some English language ones. Khuft (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

We already determine that at WP:RSN and WP:RSP Andre🚐 21:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd actually much rather abolish RD altogether and just leave the hook to Deaths in 2023 in the box. That page gives you more information then just a link on the homepage and covers almost all deaths, not just ones that someone bothered to work on the page for. Just a box of deaths feels kinda boring and would lead to endless debate over what picture to use, which is always a silly debate that can be solved by "who cares, don't have a picture". DarkSide830 (talk) 04:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

RD has been effective and works well; I strongly oppose removing it even if ITN was ultimately done away with(which I also oppose). 331dot (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Pros and cons of abolishing ITN

The idea lab is not a place to !vote. Please discuss the idea presented. Requesting change, including abolition, should be effected at WP:VPPRO if/when there is a general feel for why there is support or opposition to the idea. Izno (talk) 04:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Per above, that's not the place; here. I don't find the "dumpster fire" aspects of it that bad, as a filthy bastard myself, though I certainly appreciate what others at AN/I have reported seeing. I mainly posit that the Current Events portal is already a far superior alternative. For a reader, there's a longer blurb with the parent article (or articles) and checkable news source right there, far more of them and they show up on time. For an editor, what hassle? In short, Support. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

(RD readers, likewise, get all the benefits of all the death blurbs at Deaths in 2023, unless they consider the photo and viewing one dead celebrity as better than the rest a "benefit".) InedibleHulk (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I've been here many years and barely knew that such a thing existed. How does that motivate the creation of or improvement of articles? (an actual question) 331dot (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't address that issue. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I'd be entirely okay with losing ITN, and its space on the front page should not be replaced by something like the current events portal. A link, maybe, but not any meaningful space. Wikipedia struggles with WP:NOTNEWS: there are thousands of articles about random non-notable events where the only sources are the news coverage from when it happened. Things like ITN and the current events portal incentivize this and give users misunderstandings about what's expected before an article is created. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  One person's "random non-notable event" is another person's very notable event- which is kind of the root of the issues at ITN. 331dot (talk) 00:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  If someone wants to challenge what's "notable", then they can propose a change to WP:N or WP:NEVENTS. Until then, those are how we decide whether an event is notable. Subjective opinion about "significance" should not come into play (something ITN struggles with). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, I don't know what we'd put in the top-right corner of the Main Page, I just meant we wouldn't be leaving our fans in the cold (if we even have fans). InedibleHulk (talk) 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Maybe a big stylized link to WikiNews? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 21:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• I would disagree with any proposal to abolish that doesn't keep RD (Recent Deaths) alive. RD is working fine, discussions remain cordial and productive, and serves as a great venue to encourage content creation and improvement. Curbon7 (talk) 00:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I think Ongoing also works reasonably well. Perhaps we should replace the main aspect of ITN with "Topical high quality articles"? For example, if someone was willing to improve the article, during the Olympics we could link Olympics. BilledMammal (talk) 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see how this makes Wikipedia better, as I'm often drawn to articles I didn't know about. We should be focused on identifying the toxicity, which I was also unfamiliar with. SportingFlyer T·C 00:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'm very familiar with the toxicity and I'll tell you identifying it makes it happen. Not an argument. Just advice. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Wikipedia shouldn't deal in "breaking news" at all. Even sources which are normally very high-quality and highly reliable are terrible at breaking news reporting. Encyclopedias are not newspapers and Wikipedia should wait to write about current events until the reporting on those events stabilizes; ITN essentially showcases our least stable content, and that most likely to contain errors, on the front page. I for one would not be sad to see it go. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• You can't have your cake and eat it too. There are some that want to say that news articles are all primary. This is the logical conclusion of that effort. Even though, it brings in tons of page views and provides a valuable service. --Rschen7754 00:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  That's not how I got here. I think a news story is secondary coverage of its interview subjects' accounts (besides news that reports on news stories). I'll let one of the numbers guys field the traffic part. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  WP:Secondary does not mean secondhand. Please read WP:PRIMARYNEWS. Most newspaper articles are primary sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  That "some" includes the entire field of historiography (as explained here) and our own Wikipedia policies (as seen here). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Strongest possible oppose -

Is in the news fundamentally broken?

Yes

Is the answer to do away with ITN?

No

Let's keep it real, this is more than sour grapes [sic] by a few people (most of them who I've never seen contribute to ITN, by the way) who are annoyed that people at ITN disagree, as @DarkSide830: claims; are Rockstone35 (talk · contribs), Banedon (talk · contribs), and Levivich (talk · contribs) not (or at least were) ITN regulars (btw, the reason why I'm mentioning them is that they both support dissolving ITN)? Let's not pussyfoot around this anymore; that's exactly how we've landed in this predicament in the first place. The writing has been on the wall for probably years, definitely for as long as I've been on ITN. I knew that eventually, we'd luck out and the leeway the rest of the community has kindly and gracefully bestowed upon us for years would run out. This is the product of years of incivility, refusal to compromise, user laziness, and a fundamental inability to put our foots down and seriously address the fact that ITN is structurally broken and needs serious reform, something that almost all ITN regulars openly acknowledge, and yet effectively refuse to tackle. You're part of the problem, I'm part of the problem, WaltCip is part of the problem, The Kip is part of the problem, and everyone else that regularly contributes to ITN is complicit and has enabled and facilitated all of this. As we hurdle insults and disrupt ITN, we ought to seriously stop and think, humble ourselves, and learn that our actions, if continued, will be terminal for ITN.

To the rest of the community - listen, I understand that we have seriously dropped the ball for years now. We have definitely failed to understand the assignment for a while, and I wholeheartedly understand why many of you have reached your limits and are calling for ITN's abolition. If I was a non-ITN regular, I would call for ITN being marked as WP:HISTORICAL; hell, there have been times that I have been seriously disillusioned with the mini-project and had seriously contemplated just leaving and diverting energy towards other areas of the project. I understand y'all's plight. I just want y'all to know that we can do better, and we can have capacity to finally pull through and repair the decaying husk that is ITN, hopefully utilizing your input. With greater leadership, from both admins and regular users, from regulars to external editors, we can reform to ITN, especially since this genuine threat of deletion should likely be waking people up. I at the very least promise to combat the rampant culture of toxicity and collaborate to make a better ITN. For all the bad rep ITN somewhat deservedly receives, many on the project also appreciate it for introducing them to topics they would have otherwise know nothing about or highlighting quality articles, in spite of its many, many flaws. In the news can be reformed; for all the disruption it bears, there are many brilliant regulars who can help turn the direction of this mini-project, she just needs at least one more chance. — Knightoftheswords 04:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Knightoftheswords281, I appreciate the sentiment and agree with much of it (even though we came to different conclusions). But could I ask that you avoid using specific names to identify "the problem"? Even if you're dividing the blame equally, it's not productive. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. I have been away for some time and have not had a chance to come up to speed on the events from the last few weeks. ITN does have a few problems, but the answer is not doing away with ITN. On an urgent basis -- we need additional admin hands on ITN and also we need technical / technology support (e.g. folks who can update templates, come up with promotion queues and the like). My technical roadmap / backlog will be as below:

1. Trending topics support
2. Photograph rotation script
3. Automatic queuing and promotion (doing away with the need for admins to promote non-contentious articles like RD, allowing editors to do this and hence freeing admin capacity)
4. Template edits to seek inputs on quality separate from significance (which is more than half the daily battle between editors)
5. And, replacing the easter egg link that has "Ongoing" linked to portal current events.

So, if you know of some technology hands -- please send them our way at WP:ITN Ktin (talk) 00:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure #3 is tenable and is certainly beyond the scope of this discussion, since these items will be featured on the main page; even DYK's queues are cascade-protected. Regardless, I like the rest of this idea; the photo rotation in particular should be something that is quite straight-forward to do, as many portals do something like this. Curbon7 (talk) 01:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Re: #3 -- maybe promote to a holding area and have an admin come-in periodically and promote from the holding area. Just throwing it out there. Irrespective, I strongly believe we should not throw the project away. Urgently need some technical hands who can come-in and get some of the low hanging fruits out. Ktin (talk) 01:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. This whole debate feels like sour grapes by a few people (most of them who I've never seen contribute to ITN, by the way) who are annoyed that people at ITN disagree and that things don't perfectly all of the time. I for one also like CE, but the solution here is just to find a better solution on linking to it, which, yes, has been hard in the fast, but perhaps this situation just shows we need to revisit this issue in particular. DarkSide830 (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Linking to CE isn't a problem. It's already "Ongoing". If that box disappears, there may be a problem, but one for another venue. And I'm not annoyed or anything. Just seems more practical without. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'm nor referring to you, regardless of whether or not this is your proposal. I'm referring to several persons who have previously voiced support for removal at ANI. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There could be a better system in place with different criterion, but ITN is a great way for me to learn about current events. I would propose somehow streamlining CE & ITN, because navigation at the moment is difficult. JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 04:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Difficult how? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Rather this than outright eliminating subjective notability for blurbs (so, I guess weak support?) we are, ultimately, an encyclopedia rather than a news agency or especially a "For You" trending page; as such, any news coverage on the Main Page ought to be concerned with things of genuine significance. I got the mop on ITN credentials, and see nothing wrong with the status quo, but if push came to shove a replacement might be in order, either to a Current Events portal or who knows what. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Keep ITN, block everyone who has posted there >100 times in the last 365 days Ceoil (talk) 05:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

   I'll be sorry to see AnomieBOT go. —Cryptic 05:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

   I support this idea but I think 122 would make a better threshold. Levivich (talk) 05:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

   I don't know how serious you are, but I've officially summarily resigned and think this wouldn't be a bad idea, for a limited trial period. I'm thinking a fortnight sounds feasible. That's two weeks. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Proposing closing this discussion for now to give the above thread room to breathe. I think we should focus on discussing how we could improve things before discussing throwing the baby out with the bathwater and calling it a loss. Curbon7 (talk) 05:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think people can focus on the idea that most interests them, organically. Should, though? I won't fight you on it. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. ITN provides a useful service and does not appear to be broken / in need of fixing. Solution in search of a problem. By the way, if this isn't ready for support/oppose !voting, perhaps this should be removed from T:CENT, and/or the section heading Abolish ITN outright should be changed so that it isn't a yes/no question. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  "Pros and cons" look alright, no "outright"? InedibleHulk (talk) 06:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose — Per Novem Linguae. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 06:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Why on Earth are so many experienced individuals who should know better (and at a minimum, be capable of reading the rules at the top of the page), bold voting? To give some non-bolded commentary, I would say that for this proposal to have merit it really needs to show that the community is prioritise NOTNEWS when our editing aspects indicate against it. If we're more annoyed by the execution of ITN, then the section above this one is the place to go. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Same reason "only affects one country" votes are made, and credited, at ITN. Nobody gaf. This is why Wikipedia can't have nice things. Levivich (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment what I would say is that ITN's original aim (to encourage the improvement of currently-relevant articles) is really not obvious. It looks to anyone from outside as though its aim is the same as a newspaper's headline. Abolition might be a bit drastic. Are there better ways to align it to its real aims? I'd say this debate (on whether to abandon it) is premature. Let's sort out whether it can be made better first. Elemimele (talk) 11:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• STOP VOTING. If you want this to be a vote, this needs to go to WP:VPR and NOT here at idea lab. Cheerio, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 17:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• As someone who never looked behind the curtain of ITN I have no opinion on its state. But I would like to comment on some arguments. As far as I can see criticism of ITN seems to be based more or less on three criticisms: (1) objection in principle based on (some variation of) WP:NOTNEWS; (2) the claim that ITN is toxic; (3) the claim that ITN has become unmoored from the rules. In my opinion of these only (1) can reasonably be the basis for an argument for the abolition of ITN. If the only way to address (2) and (3) is to get rid of ITN then we have a dramatic and worrying failure of enforcement of policies and guidelines. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  If you looked behind the curtain at ITN, you'd find we have a dramatic and worrying failure of enforcement of policies and guidelines. Levivich (talk) 17:17, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Has anyone gone to ANI to say that policies are not being enforced at ITNC? 331dot (talk) 17:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Lol, um, yeah, like the thread that we were just participating in before you opened the discussion above, WP:ANI#In the news discussion of Lucy Letby. There have been a few others, too. Levivich (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I considered doing so a few months ago, but I worried that ANI-drama might make the situation worse, so I made a post at the Village Pump: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 182#Wikipedia guidelines and In the news. ITN is entirely divorced from Wikipedia's usual consensus processes and understanding of weight/notability/OR. Of course, there have been many sitewide discussions about the issue, including the one I made and these two that are now side by side. There's general agreement in these discussions that ITN needs change, but no meaningful change has ever come from any of them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Pros for abolishing. It's a short term newspaper, the opposite of Wikipedia is supposed to be and by having linked articles also encourages articles to be newspapers. It also pushes more enclopedic items below the fold. Pros for keeping: I find it to be very useful, always read it, and find the articles that it links to to be far better and having more thorough coverage (except for lacking images) than what any US news media outlet produces. North8000 (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• We should outsource any news-style content to Wikinews– a project built exactly for that purpose. I understand the idea: to highlight quality articles that are recently relevent – but it's too much like, well, news. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 21:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  It's already common practice for dictionary definition articles to be deleted and the creator pointed toward Wiktionary. I would fully support a similar practice for articles where all of the sources are news coverage of the topic. If no one is writing about it in journals, books, or retrospectives, then it's not an encyclopedic topic: it's just one of the countless news stories that get printed every day. You'd be surprised how many articles we have about individual car crashes and traffic accidents (I'll give you a hint, it's in the thousands). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. PLEASE. This would be amazing casualdejekyll 04:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  casualdejekyll Unfortunately, even if this were to become common practice (which is a long shot), it doesn't help with the thousands upon thousands of other random irrelevant events that still need cleanup. They need a concentrated effort, because my past attempts and other related discussions have only identified that there's a problem, but a solution is harder to come by. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Given the strong opposition to "abolishing" ITN, I doubt anyone would get very far with that platform. Abolition, in general, may be a less palatable idea than incremental reform, wouldn't you say? Why not pivot to a more constructive idea. Andre🚐 21:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  The reason we are here is because people seem to have lost faith in such reform, which is sad honestly, but that doesn't make TNT the correct approach. Perhaps that this comment comes from someone who does not appear to be a frequent ITN contributor shows that we need to cast a wider net and have more participation in general at ITN and for it's proposals. It always seems like the same persons contribute to the same discussions and we get nowhere. Perhaps commentary from non-ITN regulars would help. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  You are right that the limited pool of contributors is a problem. On the other hand you have to ask: why is the pool so limited? And from what I read major factors are the toxicity and breakdown of rule enforcement. So why would anyone want to contribute? You have to root out the toxicity first, then you can ask new people to join. Based on ITN's reputation alone I wouldn't even consider taking part. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  The way I see it, there's opposition to ITN and to its abolition. The section above suffices for incremental reform ideas. There's an old trope that "destruction is a form of creation"; it's not a very creative thing to say, imaginationwise, but could still truly open new doors for the regulars and foster an unfamiliar sense of well-being in viewers. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Should Wikipedia block AI web crawlers?

Should Wikipedia block AI web crawlers as The New York Times has? Schierbecker (talk) 20:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we do, AI developers could just get the data from the data dumps (and indeed most already do). Even before the most recent generation of large language models, Wikipedia has been widely used as a data source for exactly that reason (some examples). Ultimately, Wikipedia is licensed under the CC-BY-SA 4.0 license, which allows using Wikipedia's content in any medium or format, such as for training AI. Vahurzpu (talk) 21:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Per Vahurzpu, basically, no. Being "the free encyclopedia" includes being free to crawl. Besides, don't we want our future AI overlord to have access to high-quality Wikipedia information? BD2412 T 21:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Why should we? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 21:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The only reasons I could thing of would be for site performance or because the AI isn't honoring the CC-BY-SA 4.0 license. Performance issues are for the WMF to determine and deal with, not us. If there's a license issue, that too should probably start with WMF looking into it for us, as they pay for actual lawyers. Anomie⚔ 22:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Make video thumbnails less obscured by icons

Example from a current FAC

Embedded videos are increasingly used, but their dual use as illustrative thumbnail images (as encouraged by the "thumb time" parameter) are hampered by play and timer icons obscuring the thumbnail, as can be seen here:[2] This was actually changed last time I complained about it, with the play button moved to the lower left, and back then, the circle around the play button was a translucent grey. For some reason, in the meantime the icon has been changed back to the middle of the image, with a background of opaque black (same with the timer), which obscures even more. Is there any good reason why there can't be a compromise? FunkMonk (talk) 12:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)