Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 87

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Redlinks in lists and dab pages

I would like to start a debate on redlinks in lists. The disapproval of redlinks in lists and dab pages was inserted with this edit into WP:REDLINK apparently without discussion and a rather misleading edit summary. The requirements for featured lists include both completeness and minimal redlinks. That is, some redlinks in a featured list are acceptable; kind of implying that a lesser list might have more redlinks. The redlink issue has been debated numerous times regarding FA and FL and still it remains in the requirements. The most extensive debate concerning FL I could find was Wikipedia talk:Featured list criteria/Archive 2#RfC: Removal of minimal red link criteria in 5a. My reading here is that although controversial, redlinks in lists have consensus.

A list to my mind should be comprehensive, even if that means including redlinks. WP:N and WP:V apply to lists just as much as articles and they are sufficient reasons to remove entries which do not belong. Removing entries solely because they are redlinks is entirely wrong. Dab pages are different, but I think the guidelines at MOS:DAB have got it about right and WP:REDLINK should merely refer to the MoS rather than promulgating contradictory rules. So in short, my proposal for WP:REDLINK is to remove the special exception for lists and refer to MOS:DAB for dab pages. SpinningSpark 18:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

As with any case, only links you assume would actually be good articles to write should be linked. If it is obviously not notable, then there is no point linking to it. If you think the article should be written, then link it. So if you are adding redlinks to a featured article/list/dab, then I suppose you should give some hint of notability. There are also two different types of lists. Some lists have all content available, which may have some redlinks, or non-articles. Some lists have limited content because a full list would be gigantic, and they only list the most notable examples. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, and my proposal does not change the notability requirement for inclusion as documented at WP:SAL. To be clear, what I am trying to remove is the link to the essay WP:Write the article first which wants list items left out until an article is written, which I do not believe has consensus. SpinningSpark 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I think this edit is fine. It is suggested to write the article first. It is not policy that you MUST write the article first. It is just encouraged. Blake (Talk·Edits) 03:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree. I certainly -- although sparingly -- add redlinks when I think that there would be 1) a reasonable case that the article should exist and 2) a reasonable expectation that an article might exist in the future. I've created a couple-few articles based on seeing redlinks, and they do offer a bit of nudge to editors, although they should be used sparingly. I don't know why this wouldn't apply to lists and dab pages as much as any other article. I would say that the editor would be justified in going ahead and WP:BOLDly remove the material if she wants, and it would be a good idea for her post a note on the talk page to the effect of what she has done and why, and see what develops. Herostratus (talk) 03:24, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
"Encouraged" not to add redlinks is pretty much telling editors not to do it, even if pedantically there is no hard rule. Redlinks to notable subjects should be encouraged in lists, not discouraged. SpinningSpark 09:29, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
It is not discouraging redlinks. That is not at all what it is saying. It is just saying that before adding them, you should think about writing it. Blake (Talk·Edits) 10:53, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Umm...if you write the article first then it won't be a redlink, it will be blue. The corollary of encouraging writing the article first is to discourage redlinks - that is merely logic. The linked essay most definitely comes down on the side of having no entry rather than a redlink. You seem to be saying you are not for discouraging redlinks, if so I take it you would not object to a rewrite making that clear. Editors should be encouraged to write articles from list redlinks in the same sense that editors are encouraged to write articles, that should not be turned round to discouraging redlinks. SpinningSpark 20:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
There is a distinction to be made between disambiguation pages and list articles. Dab pages are supposed to be navigational aids, and aren't really "articles" per se, so they have their own rules, and most places STRONGLY discourage (as strong as can be done without violating WP:IAR) redlinks in dab pages. Lists are another topic entirely. List articles each need to be adjudged of their own accord. Some lists, in the interest of completeness, may have a mix of blue links (for existing articles), red links (for yet-to-be-created but obviously needed articles) and unlinked terms (for items which belong on the list, but do not deserve seperate articles of their own. Take a look at List of cheeses, which I think needs a lot of work, but has the right general idea. Somes cheese are notable enough for their own articles, given the copious sources on their history and production and usages. Some cheeses may be so notable, but just haven't had anyone interested enough to write an article yet. And some cheeses may lack any significant reliable sources to support stand-alone articles, but do clearly exist and should perhaps be listed in the interest of keeping the list relatively complete. --Jayron32 03:44, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
  • IMO there should normally be zero red links on a disambiguation page.
  • IMO whether red links in a non-dab stand-alone list are okay is something determined by the editors of the list, when they define the list selection criteria. You could easily imagine cases where red links are appropriate (e.g., "List of United States Senators": we really ought to have an article about each of them), and cases where red links are not (e.g., "List of television shows", where not just notability but the existence of an article might be used to focus the list).
  • IMO red links in (regular, prose-oriented) articles are desirable and should always be accepted whenever Wikipedia ought to have an article on that subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Disambiguation pages provide differentiation between wikipedia-notable TOPICS not necessarily all being articles yet. If you know a topic is notable and will get an article eventually, we want it to show in the dab page, where it serves readers and editors who might be looking for it, and provides important structure. There is a standard for keeping redlinks on DAB pages, at MOS:DABRL, which basically requires a supporting bluelink to document that the topic is wikipedia-notable, e.g. by linking to a list-article that shows the same redlink in context. --doncram 15:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment Full disclosure: I made the edit User:Spinningspark identifies as problematic, but additional full disclosure, the edit has been in place for over three years apparently without any problems. In my experience, redlinks in lists (such as those in List of cheeses almost always violate the verifiability policy. And how are we supposed to tell whether redlinked list entries are notable or not? Do we really want List of social networking websites or List of companies of the United States to be "comprehensive" (whatever that means), as User:Spinningspark suggests? In my experience the guideline's current wording (and the link to the essay) has led to a much higher quality of encyclopedia articles since it has been in place. UnitedStatesian (talk) 13:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
  • MOS:DABRL covers the inclusion of red links on disambiguation pages, with the appropriate limitations. If the difference in language at WP:REDLINK is causing confusion or contention over the use of those kinds of red links on disambiguation pages, we should update the language at WP:REDLINK to be clearer/in agreement with MOS:DABRL. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
On the contrary, I believe the current language of WP:REDLINK reflects current WP practice better than the current language of MOS:DABRL; can you point to any examples of DAB pages containing redlinks? UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Bell River. Many of the NRHP dab pages. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Garland House is one example NRHP dab page, i.e. a disambiguation page that includes one or more places listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places. General consensus from many past AFDs and other discussions is that NRHP-listed places are Wikipedia-notable, because there exist reliable sources on the places and the NRHP-listing reflects approvals by multiple local and state authorities applying a set of objective standards of notability. The Garland House dab, which I created, includes 2 redlink entries for places named exactly "Garland House" and several of format "Firstname Garland House" that a reader could be looking for. Having the dab page with its redlink entries immediately serves readers who learn elsewhere of an NRHP-listed place and want to find their way to an article or to find out that there is not yet an article for it. It also serves the general development of wikipedia by assisting in the removal of article name conflicts from NRHP list-articles like National Register of Historic Places listings in Dubuque County, Iowa and National Register of Historic Places listings in Union Parish, Louisiana, which previously each had a redlink entry for "Garland House" and are now pipelinked to "Garland House (Dubuque, Iowa)" and "Garland House (Bernice, Louisiana)" instead. Having different list-articles link to "Garland House" when meaning a different place is an article name conflict. Consider when an editor would start the Louisiana article at the "Garland House" name, say, rendering the Iowa list-article inaccurate, leading to need for Requested Move debates and dispute over which one is possibly primaryusage, because the first creators tend to think their one is primary. Putting the redlink entries into the dab page clarifies upfront that there are several places of the same name and allows for orderly fixing of all the list-articles that link to the dab page. There is a dabsolver tool which works well in fixing such article name conflicts, if and only if the redlinks on dab pages are there.
Another consideration is that there are NRHP editors are very adamantly against starting stub articles for the NRHP-listed places, and prefer for their entries to stay as redlinks until an article of a certain quality can be created (with varying views of what the minimum quality suffices).
My evolving view is that the NRHP articles could/should be created as stubs sooner rather than later, but there are many thousands of these. The redlinks on dab pages and in list-articles are essential and cannot simply be removed. --doncram 15:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I mostly agree with WP:MOSDABRL, in that we have to have some criteria for why we deem a subject notable enough for a redlink. Mention and links in the English Wikipedia are a logical place to look for such justification. The one extension of this I've long wanted to see is to allow redlinks when foreign-language Wikipedias have encyclopedic treatment of subjects we still lack here. This comes up a lot in foreign literature, geography, etc. For one thing, templates like {{ill}} and {{ill2}} would allow us to point multi-lingual readers to articles on the subjects they want. (It's not that our average reader reads language X; it's that so many readers perusing "List of rivers in Brazil" or "Some Russian Name (disambiguation)" do!) Wareh (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I also agree that we have to have some criteria for redlinks inclusion, and find MOSDABRL too limited. I'm not sure whether a foreign-language encyclopedia link would be a useful addition, though—after all, the notability criteria in those Wikipedias aren't always compatible with ours (but it's also likely that I'm over-thinking this part). What I think would be useful, however, is an ability to add an external link, which would simultaneously show the notability of the redlink, verify it, and serve as a starting point for article creation.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); May 24, 2011; 16:52 (UTC)
Wikipedia disambiguation pages disambiguate topics that are ambiguous on Wikipedia. If the topic isn't on Wikipedia, it doesn't need to be disambiguated on Wikipedia. A red link in the article space (with citation, as needed) would show the notability of the red link, verify it, and serve as a starting point for article creation, no problem. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
That's providing there is an article to add such redlink to. All too often (especially with geographic entities) there is a high-level article where the red link in question would be out of place but there is not yet a lower-level article, where the red link would be right at home. MOSDABRL in its present form is totally in the way of doing anything about such cases—it's bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); May 24, 2011; 17:07 (UTC)
If the not even the homey lower-level article has been created, perhaps the even-lower-level entity is not actually notable enough for an English-language encyclopedia? And please assume good faith: MOS:DABRL in its present form is a guard against explosions of non-notable red links. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't doubt that for some cases the answer would be "yes", but for the hundreds and hundreds of such cases I myself have encountered over the years it would be a sound "no". As your own comment confirms, MOSDABRL dictates a very specific workflow ("always work from top to bottom") which in my line work is the most time-consuming, maintenance-creating, and generally inefficient (which, when multiplied by the sheer scale of the project, results in literally months of time wasted on nothing more than satisfying rigid bureaucratic requirements of MOSDABRL). Surely I'm not alone to feel that way—there must be other process where "bottom-to-top" approach works better but can't be efficiently employed because something like MOSDABRL stands in the way. When a guideline actually impedes useful work, that's a good sign there is a problem with the guideline, not with the work being done. As for your good faith remark, I don't quite understand what it is in reference to—could you clarify what it is you mean? I'm not at all saying that MOSDABRL is completely useless and should be scrapped—it is in fact a good starting point—but it sure enough could use more flexibility. What does "good faith" have to do with me pointing it out?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); May 24, 2011; 17:59 (UTC)
The problem here is that you're assuming the fix for that inefficiency must lie in a change in the guidelines. The guidelines do not work on a top-to-bottom assumption -- the red link in the article space can be in a "lower" article, or a "sibling" article, or an article that's not in the hierarchy at all. But if Wikipedia doesn't cover the topic somewhere, that topic isn't ambiguous with the title on Wikipedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I more or less agree, but for my purposes, and those of many other readers, "on Wikipedia" is usefully defined as "on all Wikipedias." Yes we have different administrations enforcing rules, but that is not a reason why I should have to search a dozen Wikipedias to know if there's a Wikipedia article that could be useful to me. Maybe down the line more sophisticated technology will allow readers to welcome more information of this kind. The idea that such a measure would lead to lots of links to foreign articles that don't meet our notability criteria seems very far-fetched to me. In sum, I don't see this as an issue put to rest by the "link explosion" or "on Wikipedia" tests. Wareh (talk) 18:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
  • My opinion In my opinion red links should be in lists but not in Disambiguous pages. A dab page is supposed to disambiguate between existing pages not pages that might someday exist if we get around to creating them. For lists, it is very helpful and needed for red links to be in lists because it helps to identify the articles for that list that still need to be created. Additionally, if we just start removing the items from the list (names for example) then the list is automatically incomplete. --Kumioko (talk) 18:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
    A dab page disambiguate between existing topics that are covered on Wikipedia, whether in their own articles or as mentions on other articles. In the second case, mentions, the mention might red link to the topic. In those instances, the dab page can (and should) use the same red link that exists in the article space. That's the summary of MOS:DABRL and MOS:DABMENTION. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I think I need to clarify a couple of points of my proposal. Firstly, we seem to have got sidetracked on dab pages. The proposal was never about dab pages, I think MOS:DAB is fine as it is on redlinks, perhaps we need a separate thread on that. Secondly, my comment on "comprehensiveness" was not meant to mean that all non-notable additions to, say, list of operating systems should be allowed and redlinked. Spam can be kept out by challenging it under WP:V and requiring references before reinsertion - exactly the same rules that apply to any article. SpinningSpark 19:12, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I would agree with what you suggest: a change to instead discourage unreferenced redlinks from list articles and templates. UnitedStatesian (talk) 12:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Opinion - Redlinks should not exist in dab pages as the dab exists solely to direct to articles. As for lists, we have a few different cases.
  • Closed lists: "Mayors of Anywhere, USA" should include all current/former mayors of that town, with a cite showing it is true. Redlinks for articles that probably should be written, no link for unlikely articles. Lists that imply they are complete should be.
  • Open lists: "Notable left-handed people", "List of Irish Americans" and such should obviously include all notable items. (We certainly wouldn't want a list of every left-handed person.) The question revolves around "notable".
Template:Uw-badlistentry says there must be a bluelink. WP:LISTPEOPLE doesn't quite agree, saying the person must be notable, pointing to BIO notability criteria. My reading of this is that bluelinks are certainly in and redlinks require cites sufficient to start at least a stub (demonstrating that there should be an article). This avoids the inclusion of someone's left-handed (or Irish American) gym teacher who was once interviewed in your hometown newspaper. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I've added links here from Template talk:Uw-badlistentry and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(stand-alone_lists)#Inclusion_criteria_-_Requiring_blue_links. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Most of the time redlinks do not belong in DAB pages, exception would be an article that should be written, but is significant mention in a other article, then the redlink appears along with a blue link to the pertinent article. Redlinks in lists should be left up to the editors on the specific list. Some lists are long already with just the entries that have articles, it is better to not add redlinks and require the articles to be written first. Other lists are missing so many articles that they wouldn't be much without the redlinks and they should be included. GB fan (talk) 14:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment - I agree on dabs being separate from lists. On lists, there is a problem of leaving the list completely up to the individual article. A list of right-handed people vs. left-handed (or Irish Americans vs. Hmong Americans) would, as a result of availability, have more stringent requirements. By quickly glancing at the two, it would seem there are relatively equal numbers of both. However, the first might only allow bluelinks (the two Irish American mayors of New York City (I'm making this up)) while the other includes just about anyone (the first Hmong American Eagle Scout). Additionally, this leaves less watched articles as free-for-alls. After struggling to hash out a workable policy for "List of people named James", you end up with a one-on-one argument at "Podunk, Kentucky#Notable residents" with no guideline to fall back on. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Announcing our new community liaison

I’m delighted to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has engaged Maggie Dennis (User:Moonriddengirl on the English Wikipedia and elsewhere) to serve as our first Community Liaison. The Community Liaison role is envisioned to be a rotating assignment, filled by a new Wikimedian each year, half year or quarter. One of Maggie’s responsibilities is to begin to lay out a process for how this rotating posting would work.

Maggie has been a contributor to the projects since 2007 and is an administrator on the English Wikipedia and an OTRS volunteer. She has over 100,000 edits, including edits to 40 of the language versions of our projects. Her broad experience and knowledge made her a natural fit for this role.

This role is a response to requests from community members who have sometimes felt they didn’t know who to ask about something or weren’t sure the right person to go through to bring up a suggestion or issue. Her initial thrust will be to create systems so that every contributor to the projects has a way to reach the Foundation if they wish and to make sure that the Foundation effectively connects the right resources with people who contact us. If you aren’t sure who to call, Maggie will help you. Obviously, most community members will never need this communications channel - they’re happy editing, doing the things that make the projects great - but we want to make it as easy as possible for people to communicate with the Foundation.

The job of the liaison will have two major parts. First are standard duties that every liaison will perform which may include maintaining a FAQ about what each department does, making sure that inquiries from email or mailing lists are brought to the attention of appropriate staff members, etc. However, we also want liaisons to be free to pursue unique projects suited to their particular skill sets. Maggie will develop such projects in the coming weeks.

Maggie will be on the projects as User:Mdennis (WMF) and can be reached at mdennis@wikimedia.org. Her initial appointment runs for six months. I look forward to working with Maggie in this new role!

Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:51, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

You couldn't have picked a better user!--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:01, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Seconded. Excellent choice, and best of luck with you new job, Maggie :) . - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 16:26, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
👍 1 user likes this. – ukexpat (talk) 17:56, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Leaks

Asking for community input on the use of news leaks in Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources#Leaks patsw (talk) 23:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Undo

Is the message If you are undoing an edit that is not vandalism, explain the reason in the edit summary. Do not use the default message only a suggestion or policy ? Gnevin (talk) 12:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Consider it policy. It is an extension of Wikipedia:Editing policy, which says you need to explain your edits. Yoenit (talk) 13:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Gnevin (talk) 14:12, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Which would be what the undo message is doing when you click undo. That being said if it is, it should be put on a policy page somewhere because it is an extremely common use to use undo without an edit summary. And policy is supposed to reflect action not prescribe action after all. -DJSasso (talk) 14:14, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I Am really not planning to use edit summaries for edits like [1]. If people don't realise why I made this undo, they can always ask for an explanation, and if the editor would persist and make the same change again, I would also provide an explanation, but in general for such obvious errors / tests, no edit summary on undo is needed. Fram (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
On the contrary, Fram: in the example you use, an edit summary like "fixing formatting" explains what you've done and why. In many cases, something you're undoing may have been done in total good faith by somebody who needs to be told why you're reverting them if they are to learn better. It's part of making this whole project transparent rather than opaque. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:16, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Of course, because IPs stay around for an hour to check edit summaries... If they can't be bothered to check the result of their edit (and use the non-informative edit summary "alex kille" themselves-, what is the chance of them staying around for an hour or more to check the edit summary of the next edit to that article? And what is the chance that they would not understand what happened now, but would suddenly understand with "fixing formatting"? I am assuming good faith, or I would have used rollback instead of undo. But I don't believe in fairy tales, and am not wasting my time on them. Fram (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
The editors at those IPs often return to the same article, even via different IPs or subsequently registered accounts. An edit comment can prevent revertwarring. It's that simple. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Assuming that the unregistered editor checks the history, which is not something I'd necessarily want to rely on.
Fram, if you think it too much trouble to provide edit informative summaries in general, you might at least consider doing so on subsequent reversions, especially if the other person 'undid' your reversion rather than making new mistakes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Call to Action: We need more participation, more questions, and many more voter guides for the current Board Election

I'm in the process of compiling my own Voter Guide and could use more input.

  • The candidates have not been asked that many questions this time around. Ask them! They're going to control millions of dollars and help run the show for at least two years!
  • Like nearly all users, I need more feedback on the people I don't already know well-- who should we absolutely be supporting and why??
  • Or even better, make a voter guide of your own and share it. The Arbcom elections had 24 voter guides, right now there aren't any for the Board Election, and it's way more important than the Arbcom election.
  • We need to designate a central place for English speakers of all projects to discuss the election-- right now discussions are happening all over, or worse, not happening at all. We need to advertise that place extensively (in the central notices of the english-speaking projects )
  • In general, we need to spark a more robust discussion. Otherwise the elections will come down to name recognition + throwing darts at a wall.

--Alecmconroy (talk) 10:58, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


How do you think we should improve this matter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperX9 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

"Live" football score updates

(association football, that is)

There is a discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Live scores issue again regarding whether it is appropriate to add football scores during a match. It would be helpful if others could contribute to the discussion. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  22:49, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Locking?

I was surprised to see that a redirect, cellar spider, had been locked. Is there a policy on this? (I didn't find one.) The basis given in this case, "no reason to move or edit redirect without discussion," seems understandable but subjectively applicable to an endless number of redirects and, I would say, counter to Wikipedia's spirit and best interest. Certainly WP:BOLD and WP:IGNORE. What's the story? Is this case a relic/anomoly? ENeville (talk) 03:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

That particular title was subject to page-move vandalism from a banned user on the day it was protected, and it's reasonable to assume it would be targeted again. Any reasonable admin would lower the edit protection level if asked, though such requests should normally go to the protecting admin in the first instance. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Removed the edit protection, but left the move protection on for reasons stated by zzuzz. Let me know if someone wants to move the redirect. NawlinWiki (talk) 16:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

Must images of historical importance be "subjects of commentary" before we can use them under a claim of fair use? See RfC here. Input from uninvolved editors would be particularly appreciated. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 05:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles being sold by book companies

Is there a page/discussion on Wikipedia that deals with the issue of companies selling books based on Wikipedia articles e.g. [2] Thanks. Eldumpo (talk) 20:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

See User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript Publishing sells free articles as expensive books. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The licence of wikipedia clearly allows it, as long as the licence is respected. Cambalachero (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for responses. I read through a number of the articles from PrimeHunter's link. Regarding Wikipedia:Buying Wikipedia articles in print or another form, why does the Wikipedia license allow people to redistribute Wikipedia commercially. Why does it not state that it can be republished in free sources, and then only allow paid use via accredited Wikipedia partners e.g. Pedia Press? Also, going beyond that, if 3rd party publishers do charge for Wikipedia articles in a book, why are they not obliged to make it clear the articles come from Wikipedia? Is there a better place I should be asking this/perhaps similar questions have been asked before? Regards. Eldumpo (talk) 08:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
As to the second point, the license under which wikipedia text can be used does place a requirement on the user to specify its origin. As to the first, and if I remember correctly, the original license used when submitting text to wikipedi was the GFDL, which does not bar commercial use of the text. Let me turn your question around: why should wikipedia seek to limit the use of its text? Sure, we could have started out down the line you suggest, much like we could have set off down the advertising line for funding. We chose not to. Advantages and disadvantages attach to any of the options that could have been selected. What makes your suggestion better than the current situation? --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
These "book" sites appear to be internet only, so if people can access them they can access Wikipedia. It can hardly be an encouragement to editors to improve Wikipedia when they see some rip-off company making profits from text they've worked on. I don't see any benefit to Wikipedia in these "books" being offered for sale. Anyone know many of these books are produced/sold? Eldumpo (talk) 11:06, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
It shouldn't be a discouragement to editors: it's what they signed up for, the spread of knowledge. The benefit is not to Wikipedia, the benefit is to the world, and, as such, entirely inkeeping with the Wikimedia project. Okay, so we can think of better ways to spread knowledge, but as Voltaire said, it's a case of the better being the enemy of the good. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 13:04, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Except that these books can hardly be called "good", they are a dump of Wikipedia articles without any redaction, ordering, ... You get book titles like "Dylan Dog: Insert SHorror Fiction, Comics, Eponym, Tiziano Sclavi, Publishing, Sergio Bonelli Editore, Dark Horse Comics, English Language, Cemetery Man"[3] or "Folklore of the Low Countries: Epic Poetry, Legend, Fairy Tale, Luxembourg, Dutch Language, Medieval Dutch Literature, Belgium". Most of theirt book titles omit the second part, but they are still created in the same way: you take an article, and add all articles linked from the first one. You don't get a book on one topic, but a book containing one article and a long series of loosely related other articles about terms used in the first one. Fram (talk) 14:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree with the above. Why does Wikipedia want to enable profits for these shoddy companies. Couldn't it all be avoided by stating that you can freely use/distribute it, but not for commerical purposes. Eldumpo (talk) 16:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

This would violate one of the core principles of the Wikimedia Foundation ("Free licensing of content; in practice defined by each project as public domain, GFDL, CC-BY-SA or CC-BY"). It is not going to change; that "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here" box you're always saying "accept" to means what it says. – iridescent 16:25, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Reusing Wikipedia content, which begins "There are many reusers of Wikipedia's content, and more are welcome. If you want to use Wikipedia's text materials in your own books/articles/web sites or other publications, you can do so..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Because you can't say "no shoddy companies" in a license. We either forbid all commercial companies or none of them. There are plenty of legitimate commercial purposes. Mr.Z-man 21:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Also should be kept in mind that the decision is (in my amateur, non-lawyer opinion) irrevocable at this point. All the existing (text) contributions (outside of fair-use quotes or unremoved copyvio) have been licensed under terms that permit commercial use, and require the makers of derivative works (that's us) to license them under the same terms. So we simply are not allowed to go to a more restrictive license, unless we dump all current content and start over, or get all contributors to agree to the change. --Trovatore (talk) 21:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

While it is permitted, one thing that bothers me is that these books are listed at online book retailers without any indication of the nature of the book. For example, check out this "book" selling on Amazon for $116.98 (and up) that I wrote probably about 80% of: [4]. There's nothing on the page to indicate that it's all Wikipedia content. Just about no one would buy this if they understood what it was. By the same token, I'm sure just about everyone who buys it feels very ripped off once they crack the cover, and some may blame Wikipedia despite the unfairness of that. Maybe we can somehow influence the big sellers into instituting a policy of disclosure on their sites when acting as the intermediary for such manuscripts?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:34, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

That would be about all we could do. And I don't see where we would have much leverage. It would take an effort by the Foundation to have any chance (slim) of having any effect, I would think. And I don't see the Foundation as having any strong desire to bother with this, probably. I agree that it's a regrettable situation (not the commercial distribution, but the scammy high price/low quality nature of it), but some things you just have to let go, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 04:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, if it's true (and i have no intention, at this point, of paying $117 to verify), then no beef with them offering it for sale, but without mentioned the content and license it seems to be violate the spirit, if not the letter of the GFDL. That's part Caveat Emptor, but i see no indication any sucker has actually paid >$100 for the book, part Amazon for allowing/tolerating product listings promoting a misleading product, and then a potential license violation - "you must make clear to others the license terms of this work" - sure implies to me that you make it clear before accepting anyone's cash.Cander0000 (talk) 05:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
One thing we could do is swamp the internet with shit reviews of Alphascript publishing books. Both Google and Amazon have a facility for users to add reviews. If people want to pay to have Wikipedia articles nicely bound into a book I don't see the problem with that; the problem is not declaring that's what you are getting. Trading standards authorities might also be interested in hearing about this - misleading advertisments are not allowed in most countries. SpinningSpark 06:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I can't imagine that if the project knew that this was being done in the manner it is being done, there wouldn't be a move to amend the license. I would suggest that we stipulate that any commercial work comprised in part or in whole of Wikipedia article(s) as content (as opposed to, they're presenting a selection of articles in totem and they then analyze or review the benefits and drawbacks of the phenomenon of user-generated content, or they're quoting Wikipedia coverage of a subject among other sources), must indicate this fact in the subtitle of the work and at point of sale. How can a buyer beware if sales happen sight-unseen over the internet and we are abetting such highway robbery by allowing our content to be repackaged wholesale (as in its entirety, not as in discount from retail) for profit?

Upon the death of Farrah Fawcett, I was casting about for material commemorating her life and career. I did a good deal of work at Farrah Fawcett before and after her death, and when I discovered that a new book with the working title The Accomplishments of Farrah Fawcett was available for pre-order at Amazon.com, I thought, "what an odd title," but I put it in my watchlist. When the cover art was finally published, my suspicions were confirmed. Two-bit graphics and the only attribution on the cover was "The Editors". Sample pages showed cut-and-pasted refs (replete with blue type where the links were) from the Wikipedia bio I'd been working on. http://www.amazon.com/Accomplishments-Farrah-Fawcett-Editors/dp/1448630169/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1306394782&sr=1-13 That title is now out of print, replaced by "Farrah Fawcett and Charlie's Angels" http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1448644313/ref=si_aps_sup?p=random&ie=UTF8&qid=1306393505, which is the same bio appended with the Wiki bios of some of the notables she portrayed in TV films and, I suppose, the series article and bios on the other Angels. As bad as it was that such an incomplete and skewed bio was up there representing her life and career for free on Wikipedia, I was repulsed to learn that someone would sell such a half-baked product and without any indication of the source of the material. No place on the depicted covers, on their Amazon pages, or in the sample pages available for view, does it attribute the authorship or origin of this material. This is a scam, it reflects poorly on Wikipedia, and it's apparently not isolated to one publisher—the "Emporium Books" the OP notes is nowhere to be found on these pages, the covers or the sample pages. These are attributed in the Amazon Product Details section to "CreateSpace". Yet CreateSpace isn't searchable, only the author is searchable. The author for the "Accomplishments" was "The Editors", which is ambiguous enough to bring up hundreds of thousands of hits including credible sources, which is misleading. The author for the second version is listed as "Old School Cinema", but this is the only title linked to that author name. (Adding insult to injury, someone is selling this thing used for $19.99.)

Again, this isn't like, "hey, I want my cut of the $19.99." It's, "hey, I feel partly responsible for everyone who paid $19.99." Or worse, over $110! I'm not saying they should be prevented from offering this work for sale, and I'm not saying that free mirror sites should be forced to attribute the work, I'm saying that someone republishing this for commercial sale should be required to indicate on the cover and at point of sale (the description they provide to Amazon, for example) that the material was previously published, and by Wikipedia. Abrazame (talk) 07:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

We cannot amend the licence. Historical content could always be used without the stipulation, and adding in the stipulation would make our licence not an already established one. Why is that bad? Because existing licences are big names, well understood, well maintained, and, in most cases have legal precedent. They are easy to enforce and their terms are well-defined: unfortunately unlike your proposed terms.
However, I would agree that $118 is extortionate and misleading. That line is a much better line of attack IMHO. Does Amazon.co.uk host any of these? They may be liable under the new UK advertising standards rules. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 08:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Besides not being able to amend the license, that's also a ridiculous restriction. So if a book wants to include a paragraph of content from Wikipedia, they have to mention that on the cover? Restrictions that made it difficult for people to reuse Wikipedia content offline were one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) why we made the effort to dual license with CC-BY-SA instead of only the GFDL. Note that even if we did amend the license, or these publishers are in violation of the current one, it's still up to individual users to enforce it. Mr.Z-man.sock (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I suspect including a paragraph (as a clear quote, not inline) would probably fall under fair use, at least in the US, and therefore would not require accepting the license at all. The license can't put restrictions on reusers who don't accept it. --Trovatore (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Assuming they only want to sell the book in the US and countries with similar copyright laws, they probably could. But making the license more difficult to adhere to and more often bypassed is still a step backward in terms of Wikipedia being free content. Mr.Z-man 01:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Wait, I thought attribution was required (not on the cover, but somewhere). No? --JaGatalk 07:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Not only can we not amend the license of existing content, we can't amend the license of new content either, because the combination of old and new content would form a derivative work that must be licensed under the same license, per the Share Alike clause. Everybody hates Alphascript, because they're a shoddy print-on-demand press with zero editorial investment. But let me make an analogy.
Penguin Books sells a variety of books of public domain works, such as this version of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass. The same book is available for free online at Project Gutenberg, and indeed at Wikisource. Penguin does not tell us this on their cover, and you could not guess from the title and author alone whether one of their books is a public domain work or a licensed work. Yet Penguin is considered a reputable publisher, although they do almost the same thing as Alphascript, except for tacking on a short, original preface, presumably to make the volume copyrightable.
So what makes Penguin and Alphascript different? Well for one thing Penguin's books are pretty damn cheap ($10 is typical). For another they provide added value. If Alphascript did these two things, would they become reputable as well? Dcoetzee 10:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
  • These books are making it more and more difficult to do research on Google. They show up even when you use "-wikipedia". I believe it is one thing to use wikipedia text on a commercial product, but another thing entirely to be making a profit entirely off the written work of others. These books do not meet the attribution requirements, as they often hardly even mention "From wikipedia" on them, let alone the article URLs and a list of contributors. Wikimedia musy have some sway with Google and Amazon to get these piles of trash from multiplying like horny rabbits. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 10:46, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
  • The Attribution problem is one that is of Creative Common's making and is an issue they haven't (and refuse to) solve. Essentially they leave terms such as "Commercial Use" (for NC licences) undefined and allow the content creator to define the method of Attribution. Whilst this may seem minor, the legal repercussions could be huge - The foundation's legal department has been shrewd in the interpretation by clarifying this for Wikimedia content with the legal disclaimer 'By clicking the "Save Page" button... ...You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license.' So if this is considered legally binding, these books simply need to provide a URL back to the original article to comply with the attribution requirement of the CC license. However I wonder about the implications of an editor signing their contribution in Article Text and legally challenging either the foundation or one of these publishers if that signature attribution is removed but their content is retained - Similarly although perhaps more pertinently is the removal of watermark attribution from images that may have been imported from another site such as flickr. It may even be the case that some other site may be legally challenged and precedent set that content creators cannot be made to agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution for CC license only in terms of service; meaning that the user's content and individual attribution may need to be removed from article text in order to comply with the CC. Unfortunately I've already debated heavily with CC, that they need to clarify the meaning of "Commercial Use" in their license without response, so I don't think they will do anything about attribution. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
    Creative commons can say whatever it wants to, but they aren't lawyers. Attribution has a legal meaning, and it is not "a hyperlink back to the original content", it is (in US law, the law which applies to WikiMedia) "...the act of regarding a quality or feature as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something. The act of attributing, especially the act of establishing a particular person as the creator of a work of art." Linking back to the original copy does not attribute the original work to its authors, it attributes plagarism to the original. This is plagarism, pure and simple! - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
    Providing a URL is exactly how Wikimedia says to attribute our content. From the Terms of Use, "To re-distribute a text page in any form, provide credit to the authors either by including a) a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to the page or pages you are re-using". Mr.Z-man 01:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
    Parking garages have signs in them stating that they are not responsible for damage to your car. These notices do not supercede U.S. Law, regardless of what they say. Attribution has a legal meaning, and that meaning is what the law looks at, not the disclaimer on our site. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:45, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
    Firstly the Creative Commons board is composed of a majority of Lawyers, so dismissing them as not being lawyers isn't helpful. Secondly Attribution has a legal meaning but there is no legal standard by which attribution has to be established (and this will differ from work to work) and the creative commons licenses allow the creator to specify the method by which they wish the attribution of their work to be established. Thirdly The Wikimedia terms of service specify that for contributions to wikimedia the method is to be accepted as a Url back to the article where the actual attributions remain stored in the page history. Fourthly US copyright law applies to material recieved by Wikimedia, but if content is being republished abroad then it is in that legal juristiction that infringement of wikimedia content would have to be challenged. Finally, Plagarism is an ethical infringement not a legal one - which is the real problem here with the crediting of authors who have never been involved in the writing. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 06:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I had a look around on amazon.com after first reading this. While examples given do not indicate any attribution I did find some that did state the orgin of the material in this one of 1965-66 English footbal
More amusing is the number of resellers with their wide range of pricing and that some claim to have it "in stock". I'm almost tempted to pick one of the UK sellers and ask them. Do you really have a copy on your shelf? GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I find this practice disturbing. The publishers often invent one or more names as the authors, and that seems to me to violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the licence. In addition, the books are absurdly expensive, and in some subjects overwhelm Amazon with rubbish. So it seems unintelligent and misleading. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 20:54, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree. I'm surprised Amazon UK sells them as I would think they would not be fit for purpose under the Sale of Goods Act, this just looks like rubbish. Can we ask for mediawiki legal advice as to whether use of fake authors violates the attribution clause of the licence? Rjwilmsi 23:01, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Books, LLC also reprints Wikipedia content. They at least seem to respect the attribution requirements. --Tothwolf (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Responding to republishers

Collectively, Wikipedians buy a lot of books. My guess is that making it clear to e-retaillers (Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Alibris, and such) that we find it offensive would be helpful. Most of these retaillers have websites that accept reviews, we could simply (even automagically) submit reviews that disclose the publisher's practice when one of these is found. Of course, they'd get zero star ratings too. Note too that we should have {{Backwardscopy}} on the article talkpages.LeadSongDog come howl! 16:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Amazon, at least, has a system of tags such as "stolen wikipedia content", "plagiarized", and "commercial copyright infringement" as seen on this version of our Opposite-colored bishop's endgame. I also note that here listed are 332 of these "books" that libraries (sometimes several) have forked out scarce money for. It would seem appropriate to let these libraries know what's been happening so they can respond too, though judging by the "notes" section here the OCLC is already on to their game in some cases. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
For starters, I'd like to see a bot go through all of the books found by querying gbooks or worldcat for ("VDM Publishing" or "Alphascript Publishing" or "Betascript Publishing" or "Frederic P Miller" or "Frederick P Miller" or "Agnes F Vandome" or "John McBrewster" or "Lambert M Surhone" or "Miriam T Timpledon" or "Susan F Marseken") and ("WIKIPEDIA" or "Wikipedia") and add the appropriate backwardscopy template to the same-title WP article's talkpage header.LeadSongDog come howl! 18:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
You get the list, and I'll handle the rest. :) - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 19:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I offer to help. Rjwilmsi 23:05, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
This search of OCLC is also interesting. LadyofShalott 23:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Registered users at WorldCat can create lists from search results, and these can be exported as CSV files. Unfortunately it's a bit handraulic: you can only add ten query hits at a time to the lists. It's possible there's another way that uses their APIs.LeadSongDog come howl! 14:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I've built a list on Worldcat entitled "Wikipedia articles copied by VDM Publishing" with 260 entries attributed to Miller. It should be a good start.LeadSongDog come howl! 17:31, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Now extended to include most of the others, for 352 total.LeadSongDog come howl! 17:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is the link to the list LeadSongDog compiled. --Tothwolf (talk) 01:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
From the looks of these reviews, [5] [6] [7] people have indeed been tricked into purchasing some of these books. Since many people won't even bother to write a review, likely far more people than that have fallen for this scam. I also found the follow up comments for some of these reviews interesting and also noted that Amazon had removed one of the comments. [8] [9] --Tothwolf (talk) 01:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps these are simply a symptom of another issue. If WP content was catalogued in a way the librarians and booksellers understood, e.g. one ISBN or OCLCn per article, they'd be better represented in indices out there. Why don't we get proactive about this? Register an ISBN prefix for the Wikimedia Foundation. Add the article ID as a suffix. Register WP as a library. Feed our article metadata to the OCLC so it appears as an online resource in nearly every library in the world. Isn't that in keeping with the project's mission? LeadSongDog come howl! 20:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
If we become a publisher, with our articles as our publications, we'll get involved in a nightmare. Exactly when do we generate a new ISBN for a version of an article? Are they each checkpointed? Or do we do it for each and every edit, vandalism or not? Yikes. - Denimadept (talk) 20:29, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Simple. You use the version that is selected for publishing by the editorial team. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Simple. You use the version that is selected for publishing by the editorial team. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a new ISBN each time an article gets promoted? Even simpler, a single OCLC number can apply to all revisions of a live internet resource or, for that matter, to all issues of a serial. Of course a DOI could identify each specific revision, even though as Denimadept points out, that would include some we would not much want kept. This would have the advantage that someone citing a WP article by doi gets a specific revision (equivalent to citing its oldid but more stable) and still gets the pink notice linking to the current version e.g. LeadSongDog come howl! 13:26, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Examples of these books and original copyright

Thanks for all the posts on this topic. It seems it is a concern for others as well. Has anyone got a copy of one of these books so they could scan a page so we can get a fuller understanding of what is included from the Wikipedia article. In particular I'm wondering how they deal with referencing. Presumably they just cut out the references and external links sections, and the in-line citations? Does that mean that if any of the Wiki articles they use were themselves effectively direct copies from another source, then they are liable for copyright breach from the original source? Eldumpo (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. You're asking whether they could be liable if they inadvertently included a Wikipedia article that was itself a copyvio (and which we hopefully have since removed)? They could always argue that they relied upon Wikipedia's representation that all of our text was freely licensed. Whether a court would expect them to have made their own investigation, I don't know. I'd expect that these "publishers" are all kind of fly-by-night working-out-of-the-back-of-a-Singapore-sweatshop kind of "companies", so there probably isn't much to sue anyway. But if someone does want to take the time to look through some of these, see if they included any copyvio articles, then notify the infringed publisher that this was a copyvio, we fixed it, they didn't, good luck to you. postdlf (talk) 15:00, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is protected from copyright claims by the safe harbor provision of the DMCA, precisely because it is a website to which people are permitted to post freely. Once a publisher reduces content to print and offers to sell it in a tangible format, the DMCA no longer applies to them, and they can be sued for copyright infringement just like anyone else publishing any written work. In the United States, copyright infringement is a strict liability cause of action, and reliance on a third party is not a defense to infringement itself. That would only mitigate damages. bd2412 T 00:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

so what happens if one of these "publishers" grabs a copy of an article at a time when the article contains inappropriate cut and paste copyrighted content? Active Banana (bananaphone 05:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Has Wikipedia policy changed to allow censorship?

I ask because an ongoing dispute on the talk page for an article about an Australian politician seems to indicate that some editors believe that Australian censorship law should take precedence over the inclusion of reliably sourced from several national newspapers describing how that politician has been charged with child pornography offenses and suspended from his party. Edit-warring to exclude this information from the article has been ongoing for more than a month, with absurd claims that even linking to said reliable sources is unacceptable. Nevard (talk) 08:55, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Well I am no expert and I don't know the history of this debate myself, but off the bat, it looks like it might be a case of WP:IDL on the part of some Aussie editors. Australian censorship laws are irrelevant here. The laws of the State of Florida are the only ones that apply to Wikipedia afaik, because that is where they have their servers. A country's laws don't extend to the articles of their citizens. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 11:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Australian law does, of course, apply to editors in Australia. I am no legal expert either, and offer no opinion on whether or not this is actually against Australian law. However, Australian editors cannot legally upload something from Australia that is against Australian law, so caution is needed here in advice to editors. But as Flinders Petrie says, Australia has no jurisdiction over servers in Florida, so there is no cause to remove material from Wikipedia unless it against the law in Florida or there is some Wikipedia policy reason. It would be quite silly if we tried to comply with the legal code of every country in the world. German copyright laws would make a big hole in Commons images for instance, to say nothing of what the Saudi blasphemy laws would do to our religous articles. SpinningSpark 13:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Ah well yes, that is true for Aussie editors, no argument there. However, if the content is properly sourced, notable and relevant then someone from elsewhere in the Commonwealth or the Colonies, not constrained by censorship laws (or an Icelander if one is available =p), could put the info in. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 13:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
This keeps coming up. Do we have a guideline on this that we could refer editors to? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't think we need a guideline to say, essentially, "You are responsible for following the laws of your jurisdiction when Wikipedia. WMF/WIkipedia is not responsible for any legal problems you face if you decide to break the law where you live." Common sense seems to be the overriding principle here. → ROUX ₪ 20:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration policy update and ratification

The current written arbitration policy dates from 2004 and much has evolved since then. It has been extensively reviewed over the last two years, with a series of wide-ranging community consultations. A proposed update has now been posted and is awaiting community ratification. All editors are cordially invited to participate in the ratification process, which is now open.  Roger Davies talk 23:35, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Discuss this

WP reputation damaged by lack of naming convention on derogatory slang in article titles

There has been a lot of confusion over what IMHO should be a relatively uncontroversial exertion of wise editorial policy such that proscribed "hate speech" type language, ie., certain highly derogatory slang words, be subjected to a simple naming convention. Surprisingly, some editors fail to distinguish a naming convention from outright censorship and as a result the culpable articles remain, alienating faculty and students around the world.

Specifically, article titles about words such as ch*nk, in the derogatory slang sense of "Chinese-descended person" would be better put as "Ch*mk (Slang, prejudicial) or something like that.

What should be a no-brainer has become a twisted pretzel argument. Please think this through - there is no censorship impliced. And articles about mere words don't really belong here in the first place, they are dictionary words to begin with.

Discussion is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chink#The_proposal_as_it_now_stands Bard गीता 02:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Follow up of WP:Village pump (proposals)/Proposal to require autoconfirmed status in order to create articles

A draft of how to run the trial is now located here. Crossposting from WP:VPR. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Pending changes proposal

I've written a proposed policy to use pending changes level two protection on certain articles with a history of BLP problems for which semi-protection is inadequate. Comments are welcome. Chester Markel (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:VIDEOLINK

I would like to request some eyes on WP:VIDEOLINK. The initial reasoning for starting the essay was because I saw a gap in how YouTube links are handled. Both guidelines and policies still fail to address how YouTube is used as a source. The essay has been sitting at mid-impact for several months. I have even seen others pointing to it in discussions. I would love some copyediting. I also want to ensure that it is completely inline with precedent.Cptnono (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Sporadic fundraising testing starting today.

Hi everyone -

WMF's fundraiser team will be testing our banner, landing page and analytics systems this week (starting today). This is the first time we're turning on our systems since last year's fundraiser -- so we want to work out any bugs that crawled in first before getting others involved. Banners will appear for about 30-60 minutes per country in 15 to 20 countries (a couple a day). A few will be the Jimmy banners with pictures but most will be more subtle.

We test before the fundraiser starts so that staff are well trained and systems function well during the fundraiser. This year, we're training more people to code banners and landing pages than last year so that we can help chapters and other country and language communities do better testing.

I'm going to update this thread each day with the countries we'll be testing on so that people have a heads up but if you have any questions please let us know. All banners will be anonymous only and short term.

Wikimedia Foundation Fundraising Team

This morning we plan on doing short tests in: Brazil, Mexico, Belgium, Ireland and South Korea and Tanzania Jalexander--WMF 17:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks; I have updated User:WhatamIdoing/Fundraising in the expectation of complaints.
Will Philippe still be the main contact for this year's fundraiser? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Philippe agreed to help out for a year with the fundraiser and has since returned to Reader Relations (though will of course be around). The fundraiser this year is going to be headed up by Megan Hernandez (User:Meganhernandez on the projects)who headed up the testing and production side last year. We'll also have a team of staff helping out both on and off wiki like we did last year. As a side note since you mentioned contact: if anyone has issues during a test etc we will always be available on IRC in the irc:Wikimedia-fundraising channel (I'll also be hanging in the general Wikipedia-en and en-admins channels) as well as keeping an eye both on wiki and OTRS (through the donate@wikimedia.org address).
As a heads up our current rough plan is to have a short test in SG (Singapore), SK (Slovakia), SO (somalia), NZ, GR (greece), GT (Guatemala) and MA (Mauritious) tomorrow (Thursday). That test is likely to happen early afternoon US Pacific Time (evening UTC). We are also thinking of a short test in the United States and Canada on Friday (obviously having more visual impact then some of the smaller countries Thursday). I'll let you know as plans firm up and as always things are subject to change or cancellation as things come up. Jalexander--WMF 07:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Just an update. Over the next 30 minutes we'll be starting a short test (no more then an hour) in a couple smaller countries (not what I put above): Belize, Liberia, Suriname, Camaroon, Ghana and Botswana Jalexander--WMF 22:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

As an update for Friday. Our plan is to test banners in a bunch of countries including larger ones. Currently planned for about 1 hour in the Morning US Pacific time: Unites States, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, Greece and Singapore. Jalexander--WMF 08:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

voting

Straw poll closing in three hours.

The straw poll regarding disambiguation links in maintenance lists of mathematics articles is scheduled to close in about three hours. Speak now or - well, you know the rest. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Note: This straw poll was closed with a consensus to move the lists of mathematics articles to project space, based on their use as maintenance lists. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Rfc on use of maps

I've set up an RfC WT:No original research#RfC: Are_maps in general secondary sources?. Sounds like we should soon have hundreds of thousands of new things to write about :) Dmcq (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC).

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