Talk:Christians

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Orphaned references in Christian[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christian's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Global Christianity":

  • From Christianity: ANALYSIS (19 December 2011). "Global Christianity". Pewforum.org. Retrieved 17 August 2012.
  • From Christianity by country: ANALYSIS (2011-12-19). "Global Christianity". Pewforum.org. Retrieved 2012-08-17.
  • From Christendom: Global Christianity

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 14:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Christianos[edit]

What I see here is no support for the Latin ending "ianos" to mean or denote "adhering to". Just like the American dictionaries that have added to its meaning and so has Wikipedia. Even the source Wikipedia referred to [17]in the text doesn't support anything beyond, ownership. Citation need should come after "adhering to"


QUOTE: "The Greek word Χριστιανός (Christianos), meaning "follower of Christ", comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one",[16] with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership.[17]" END OF QUOTE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian#Etymology


The suffix "-ianos" has nothing to do with the verb "following". The Greek suffix is used to denote "possession" such as slaves. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Greek-2004/f/name-suffixes.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.251.250.206 (talk) 04:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

This article needs to be edited for proper English.[edit]

These are two errors I found in just reading the introduction...

"Today, about a 37% of all Christians live in the Americas,..." should read "Today, about 37% of all Christians live in the Americas,..."

"While 280 million Christian lives as minority." should read "While 280 million Christians live as a minority."

Please have someone edit this document so that it does not read like a child wrote it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolauson (talkcontribs) 16:21, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Fixed! Thanks for pointing it out. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, re 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence: "There are diverse interpretations of Christianity which sometimes conflict ...', please insert, as the first word, the word 'While' for proper grammar/readability. And, the words 'at least' in same sentence are unnecessary / superfluous / 'judgemental' / etc., in this 'P.C.' world we now live in. Derfball (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Derfball:  Done, thank you. – Fayenatic London 21:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

wp:NOETHNICGALLERIES[edit]

Sandstein's close of the recent RfC on composite images in infoboxes applied not just to ethnic groups but also in general to "large group[s] of people" in "articles about other than ethnic groups, such as nationalities". In that spirit I have removed the (very cumbersome) composite image and replaced it with one single, iconic image. Note that File:Infobox Collage of Famous Christians.jpg contained 63 images, and contains what I find to be rather problematic images such as that of Tim Tebow and Lionel Messi. And one wonders what Da Vinci is doing in there. Who is Marrissa Mayer in Christianity? Luke Evans? (I understand he's best known as an actor, then as a gay man, and then as a well-dressed man--his article doesn't even mention him as a Christian.) I think this collage was made with the best of intentions (I did find a Mormon in there, for instance), but there is no way one can have such imagery and not have quibbles such as this one, which is exactly why the RfC closed the way it did. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 16:01, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

@Drmies:Not a bad choice, it does have some well-known christians in it (if disciples are christians, that is). I´m ok with it, but there´s actually an ongoing discussion about how that RFC should apply to articles beyond "ethnic" at [1] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:01, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks--I was trying to do the best I could on the fly. Yes, I am looking at that discussion; I have no doubt there will be much more fallout from the RfC. Thanks for the link. Drmies (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Paragraph "Christians have made a myriad contributions in a broad and diverse range of fields,," should be removed[edit]

It does not add any factual content what so ever. THe citations are to highly unreliable sources and subjective. The list contains western artists and business men, people from a christian, or in some rata cases Jewish background. That western, christian, persons may prefer western, christian artist och business people is quite obvious. Main reason for deletion is that is not relevant to the subject of defining "christian".. Abergdahl (talk) 23:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)--Abergdahl (talk) 23:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I have removed a copy of this paragraph from the lead section, and removed another paragraph that was just about American award winners, for a start. – Fayenatic London 23:46, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree. The paragraph reads like "bragging rights". How does an individual's faith have anything to do with their secular achievements? This sets a precedent for a vast number of subjects. Do we now add the same for a million other subjects? It needs to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.69.211.33 (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Scumm like this was added to this and many other articles throughout Wikipedia by the source manipulator and finally totally banned user Jobas.--5.94.36.144 (talk) 10:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2017[edit]

In Hebrew terms chapter, please change נוּצְרי to נוֹצְרִי ; please change יְהוּדִים מָשִׁיחַיים to יְהוּדִים מְשִׁיחִיִּים . reason: this is the correct punctuation 46.117.156.221 (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Done Nihlus 17:45, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 017[edit]


In the second paragraph, it is stated that Christians are united in that they see a unique significance in Jesus. Please change this to say that "Christians are united in that they recognize Jesus as God". Reason: Academically speaking, phrasing it this way fails to convey the importance that Jesus has on Christianity as though He is viewed as just another preacher. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrOmega117 (talkcontribs) 19:18, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: The wording is sourced from book very narrowly and cautiously. You can only change that by getting reliable Independent source that support your change, and even after that if there's consensus to that.  — Ammarpad (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2018[edit]

PLEASE CHANGE

The first recorded use of the term (or its cognates in other languages) is in the New Testament, in Acts 11:26,[24] after Barnabas brought Saul (Paul) to Antioch where they taught the disciples for about a year, the text says: "[...] the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." The second mention of the term follows in Acts 26:28,[25] where Herod Agrippa II replied to Paul the Apostle, "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." The third and final New Testament reference to the term is in 1 Peter 4:16, which exhorts believers: "Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."[26]

Kenneth Samuel Wuest holds that all three original New Testament verses' usages reflect a derisive element in the term Christian to refer to followers of Christ who did not acknowledge the emperor of Rome.[27] The city of Antioch, where someone gave them the name Christians, had a reputation for coming up with such nicknames.[28] However Peter's apparent endorsement of the term led to its being preferred over "Nazarenes" and the term Christianoi from 1 Peter becomes the standard term in the Early Church Fathers from Ignatius and Polycarp onwards.[29]

The earliest occurrences of the term in non-Christian literature include Josephus, referring to "the tribe of Christians, so named from him;"[30] Pliny the Younger in correspondence with Trajan; and Tacitus, writing near the end of the 1st century. In the Annals he relates that "by vulgar appellation [they were] commonly called Christians"[31] and identifies Christians as Nero's scapegoats for the Great Fire of Rome.[32]

TO

The first recorded use of the term Christian is in Codex Alexandrinus written in the 5th century or later.

BECAUSE,

the existing text is not factual, and apart from that we do not know how far apart in doctrine the early Chrestians following Jesus Chresto, are compared to Nicean Christians who follow Jesus Christ and doctored "e" for "i" in the documents we have, probably in the 4th century when they were vandalising other faiths institutions and destroying all Pagan and other Christian related documents. 

eg the Greek Magical Papyri 400CE - the author is definitely not Nicean orthodox in regard to the trinity. "Excellent rite for driving out daimons: Formula to be spoken over his head: Place olive branches before him,and stand behind him and say: “Hail, God of Abraham; hail, God of Isaac; hail, God of Jacob; Jesus Chrestos, the Holy Spirit, the Son of the Father, who is above the Seven, who is within the Seven........."

Anyway, it is simply not true to say a word was used when it was not. All documents relating to Christianity up until Codex Alexandrinus use the term Chrestians.

The next section with the heading "Nazarenes", also sits uncomfortably.

Cheers. 106.69.211.33 (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. There are multiple sources in that section, so we can't just take your word that they are all wrong. You would also need to establish a consensus to make this substantive a change to this section. —KuyaBriBriTalk 17:55, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough. I had noticed the existing references 24, 25 and 26, simply go to a generic english translation of the passages. They do not reference any evidence. Can we please be provided with proper references to the earliest examples, to support the existing text in this entry. The existing entry does not even say what ancient documents are being referred to(probably because of ignorance or simply that there are none until Codex Alexandrinus and it conflicts with the editors beliefs). 27 and 28 reference Wuest who may make mention of the issue, but I do not have access to his book. He may not as a lot of Christian researchers automatically translate to "Christians"

This page has references, should I simply copy them over. http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/chrestians%20christians.htm I have also verified through various christian scholars who mention it when they display the original Greek, where it becomes obvious. I did not bother saving links at the time, but could obviously go looking again.

Here is a link to a photo of codex Vaticanus Acts 11:26 - The page is currently throwing an error for me. http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2003/GA03_085a.jpg pdf with links to photos is here http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/Vaticanus-Scripture-Index.pdf Cheers.

I have now created an account to deal with this. There is a current Wikipedia entry that touches on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#Christians_and_Chrestians Real life is calling, so I will check back tomorrow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Major Mess (talkcontribs) 04:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC) More Wikipedia links - Surely this is enough to get the change or at least the existing text removed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Oxyrhynchus_3035 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_in_the_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Paganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_early_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_in_Judaism references the following page. https://sites.google.com/site/originsofchristianity/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Messiah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus — Preceding unsigned comment added by Major Mess (talkcontribs) 04:17, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. We cannot accept a personal webpage with one person's original research as a source for changes. Please also see the core content policies. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I am not expecting the forum I linked to, to be used as a reference. It has links to Original artefacts stored around the world. How can there be a better source than the actual physical item? I asked if I should simply copy the sources here. Since my previous email I have also compiled direct links to the Oxyrhynchus Papyri.

The other links I posted previously are to Wikipedia entries. Why are their references not OK?

How does the existing entry that contains no reference meet Wikipedia's standard?

Sorry, it is very confusing. Wikipedia(Identifying reliable sources) makes no mention that physical facts are not acceptable. Please explain how actual original texts etc, are not good enough to be used on Wikipedia. Major Mess (talk) 12:54, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

What appears to be a part of the problem, aside from any individual Christian scholar's bias and psychosis, is that the finds of originals is so rare, found over a large geographic area, and over a long period of time. No individual working on a single artefact would have access to all originals at the same time so as to have noticed the issue. I have only been interested in the originals, but have just started looking for published material on the subject.

Here is a reference from an 1880 publication. (Amazingly he was also aware that the true origin of the Chi Rho symbol was from Chrestos - Page 34). Chrestos: a religious epithet; its import and influence (1880) - James Barr Mitchell. "But the fact remains that during the first four centuries of our era it was the common practice of the Christians to write the name of their Master Chrest or Chreist, and to style themselves Chreistiani". https://archive.org/details/chrestosareligi00mitcgoog Note: the "ei" spelling is only at the very end of the period, and appears to be a part of a transition in the spelling/word change. Justin Martyr complaining that their name does not mean they are boasting that they could never end up in legal court, makes a lot more sense as "Good" rather than "Christ".

All of this lying by omission is a part of the reason our history in this period is in such a mess. Obviously the most damage was done after the creation of modern Nicean Christianity in 325CE, its following legal persecution of other earlier Christians and Pagans from 336CE, and the associated destruction of all "offensive" texts etc. Major Mess (talk) 16:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

In case it was missed above, here is the link to Codex Sinaiticus. This is our oldest original bible. You can see the original page with the later change clearly visible. The eta(like our H) has been scratched off to make an iota, leaving a gap. The Greek is presented on the right showing the correct "Chrestian". The english translation interprets it to "Christian". http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit%20Query&book=51&chapter=11&lid=en&side=r&verse=26&zoomSlider=0#51-11-19-3 Major Mess (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Please read the Core Content Policies, especially the policy on Original research. This represents a synthesis of published material which is still considered original thought under our guidelines. We cannot accept original research and Wikipedia is not a publishing forum for original research. You may be interested in taking this to one of the many alternative outlets that does support publishing of original thought. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:44, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
@Major Mess:, conclusions drawn from primary source documents are, by definition, original research. I have remove the most recent repetition of your request because the only new content to the request was comments that indicate a lack of understanding of Wikipedia policies and content guidelines. See your talk page for more information. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested edit: The article needs to be cleansed[edit]

It is full of randomly sourced, superficial and POV junk added by the (finally) banned user Jobas.

For instance, this phrase in the lede is extremely generic:

"Christians have significantly influenced and contributed to human progress in many fields including philanthropy, philosophy,[11] ethics, literature,[12] business and economics,[13][14] fine arts and architecture,[15] music,[16] theatre and medicine,[17] as well as science and technology,[18][19][20] both historically and in modern times."

Some of its sources do not cite the page and some of them are not about Christianity. This is actually an abuse of sources, bending them to what the user wants them to say. This was the usual editing style of user Jobas, who manipulated the sources reporting what they actually do not say.

Moreover, the entire list of statistics from the Pew Research Center is outdated, POV (since the PRC is an American think-tank and has links with Christian organizations), and therefore should be removed.--5.94.36.144 (talk) 00:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Spintendo      12:00, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Changes:
  • Remove the phtase quoted above;
  • Remove the list of statistics which is outdated and dubiously reliable.--5.94.36.144 (talk) 13:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 Partly done: The Pew forum figures, being relatively recent and not finding better ones, I have left. I have removed the NPOV material added by the blocked user in the lead and in the "Notable individuals" section. It is a mix of material sourced to non-reliable sources, material that fails verification, and material that is significantly not about the Christianity of the contributors. E.g., noting that most Nobel laureates are Christians (and only then in the very broadest sense) is very nearly identical to noting that most Nobel laureates are from Western Europe and North America. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:42, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

The paragraph is supported with good academic publishers such as Cambridge University Press and Oxford University Press. While you claim WP:PEACOCK, many articles such as Jews, Italians, Arabs, Greeks use the same language and expressions. Instead of reverting you could change the wording.--desmay (talk) 00:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

This edit was supported by new and reliable sources, such as Cambridge University Press, Oxford University Press, University of Minnesota Press, Marquette University Press, and Duke University Press, along with works published by respected academics such as Andrew Steane, William S. Kroger, and Jeffrey Brown. Also, I don't think the wording violates WP:PEACOCK, since the sources themselves use words such as "significantly," "influenced," and "contributed." For example, one of the cited sources, Faithful to Science: The Role of Science in Religion published by Oxford University Press, states "...the Christian contribution to science has been uniformly at the top level, but it has reached that level and it has been sufficiently strong overall ..." Another source, The Cambridge History of Christianity published by Cambridge University Press, states that "...Many of the scientists who contributed to these developments were Christians..." These are some examples of the sources in that edit -- reliable, independent, high-quality academic sources -- that use wording like that. Instead of reverting, I think User:Pepperbeast should discuss the sources or at least change the wording if he really thinks it violates PEACOCK -- though looking at the sources, the policy clearly isn't violated. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Eggishorn: Your rectification was reverted without consensus. And apparently we are in front of a case of WP:MEATPUPPETRY and/or WP:SOCKPUPPETRY.--2.37.22.52 (talk) 10:56, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That is such nonsense now, isn't it?ScepticismOfPopularisation (talk) 00:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

──── That Christan individuals have contributed to various fields should be non-controversial; however, whether that constitutes "progress" is highly POV and also an improper synthesis of the sources. "Progress" is a speculative concept in any case, and any statements linking religious identity to any example of "progress" shouldn't be stated in Wikpedia's voice. The recently added paragraph listing various fields was also unduly weighted by being placed in the lead section. I've replaced it with a more concise and neutrally-worded paragraph that was already in the article. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Assyrian Church of the East[edit]

I removed the Assyrian Church of the East from the Orthodoxy sector in the infobox since there are no grounds to claim they are Orthodox. Given they represent less than 0.1% of Christians worldwide, they're not statistically significant enough to affect the present stats. Leefeniaures audiendi audiat 19:55, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Adding an historical reference to the term "Christian"[edit]

-The following can be added to the section that cites examples of early uses of the term "Christian"

Term “Christian” in Ancient America

The use of the term “Christian” is found in The Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ and is used approximately 72-73 B.C. The term Christian is used by enemies of the Christians. The Christians in Ancient America were those that believed, to the point of death (Alma 14:8; 3 Nephi 1:9, 13-14), that the Son of God was destined to come, fulfilling ancient Biblical and Book of Mormon prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. Those that believed these prophecies of and teachings about Christ’s first advent were called Christians in the record preserved in the Book of Mormon.

Brendennc23 (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Not done. The Book of Mormon is not a reliable source. PepperBeast (talk) 18:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Not about the term[edit]

A large portion of this article is not about the concept Christian, but about the term. This material needs to be removed (some possibly moved to the See also section). Editor2020 (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 25 November 2018[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed, as there is a clear consensus to have this topic at the plural title; however, there is a lack of consensus as to the fate of the resulting redirect, "Christian", with some editors specifically supporting the move but opposing the proposed retargeting, preferring that the redirect either continue pointing to the subject to be moved, or that it be disambiguated entirely. bd2412 T 15:47, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

ChristianChristians –The title Christian should redirect to Christianity as a frequently used adjective in compound terms such as Christian theology, Christian minister, Christian ethics, etc. Plural titles are specifically allowed for groups of people, and in this case would avoid both the noun/adjective ambiguity and the need for piped links. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC) (updated) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 10:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per Americans. RM closer: remember to update all existing links to Christian before performing a move. feminist (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
  • It is not really feasible for the closer to alter all of the over 12,000 existing links to Christian in the mainspace. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're asking the closer to do. Dekimasuよ! 22:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Actually, it might be better to leave them linking to the disambig page, since many of them are wrong. The first one I checked has "In Christian theology", which would be better off linking to Christianity. If you just let them point to the disambig page, each one may eventually get tagged for disambiguation and fixed. This is obviously not a job that a closer can take on, nor any individual, yet it's a job that probably needs to done, whichever way this RM closes. Dicklyon (talk) 22:33, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Well... I oppose pointing Christian to Christianity because updating existing links to Christian would be quite impossible. Pointing it to the disambiguation page is a possible option though would create a lot of work for dab fixing. Either way, links need to be fixed. feminist (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

*Oppose per WP:SINGULAR JC7V (talk) 03:24, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per WP:PLURAL JC7V (talk) 03:29, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:PLURAL: "Articles on people groups" should use the plural form in the title, and Christians are a group of religious people. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:35, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Support moving this article to Christians, but I oppose retargeting the leftover redirect or turning it into a disambiguation page. The current title should remain as a redirect to the new title, unless someone is volunteering to go through many thousands of incoming links and manually disambiguate them based on context. Bradv🍁 05:39, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
    Also note that this article is move-protected, so the discussion will require closure by an admin. Bradv🍁 05:40, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why only the good stuff?[edit]

Parts of the article frankly appear to be written to burnish the image of Christianity. Why are the "noted contrbutions" of Christians to arts, literature, and science mentioned prominently, along with the number of Christian Nobel Prize winners, yet there's no mention of the Crusades or the Inquisition, for example? There must be loads of published material about Christians' roles in such notable events. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:36, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2018[edit]

Please take out Xian (abbreviation)" redirects here. For other uses...

because there are no other abbreviations on that page and Xian redirects to Xi'an from where Christians can be found via hatnote Bullenbeisser (talk) 16:33, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done Bradv🍁 16:53, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Short description should be people not person[edit]

per title Bullenbeisser (talk) 17:54, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done [2] by Editor2020. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

also plese dab to the Christians Bullenbeisser (talk) 18:00, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

That page now redirects to Christian.[3]Sangdeboeuf (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Xian (abbreviation) at RfD[edit]

I've started a discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 January 7#Xian (abbreviation) as to the proper target for this term, which currently redirects here. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2019 (UTC)