This star, with one point broken, symbolizes the featured candidates on Wikipedia.
Featured pictures are images that add significantly to articles, either by illustrating article content particularly well, or being eye-catching to the point where users will want to read its accompanying article. Taking the adage that "a picture is worth a thousand words", the images featured on Wikipedia:Featured pictures should illustrate a Wikipedia article in such a way as to add significantly to that article, according to the featured picture criteria.
Promoting an image
If you believe an image should be featured, create a subpage (use the "For Nominations" field, below) and add the subpage to the current nominations section.
For promotion, if an image is listed here for ten days with five or more reviewers in support and the consensus is in its favor, it can be added to the Wikipedia:Featured pictures list. Consensus is generally regarded to be a two-thirds majority in support, including the nominator and/or creator of the image; however, anonymous votes are generally disregarded, as are opinions of sockpuppets.
All users may comment. However, only those who have been on Wikipedia for 25 days and with at least 100 edits will be included in the numerical count. If necessary, decisions about close candidacies will be made on a case-by-case basis. Nominations started in December are given three extra days, due to the holidays slowing down activity here.
The archive contains all opinions and comments collected for candidate nominations and their nomination results.
If you nominate an image here, please consider also uploading and nominating it at Commons to help ensure that the pictures can be used not just in the English Wikipedia but on all other Wikimedia projects as well.
Delisting an image
A featured picture can be nominated for delisting if you feel it no longer lives up to featured picture standards. You may also request a featured picture be replaced with a superior image. Create a subpage (use the "For Delists" field, below) and add the subpage to the current nominations section.
Please leave a note on the talk page of the original FPC nominator (and creator/uploader, if appropriate) to let them know the delisting is being debated. The user may be able to address the issues and avoid the delisting of the picture.
For delisting, if an image is listed here for ten days with five or more reviewers supporting a delist or replace, and the consensus is in its favor, it will be delisted from Wikipedia:Featured pictures. Consensus is generally regarded to be a two-thirds majority in support, including the nominator. Note that anonymous votes are generally disregarded, as are opinions of sockpuppets.
However, images are sometimes delisted despite having fewer than five in support of their removal, and there is currently no consensus on how best to handle delist closures, except that:If the image to be delisted is not used in any articles by the time of closure, it must be delisted. If it is added to articles during the nomination, at least one week's stability is required for the nomination to be closed as "Kept". The nomination may be suspended if a week hasn't yet passed to give the rescue a chance.
Outside of the nominator, all voters are expected to have been on Wikipedia for 25 days and to have made a minimum of 100 edits. If necessary, decisions about close candidacies will be made on a case-by-case basis. As with regular nominations, delist nominations are given three extra days to run if started in December.
Note that delisting an image does not mean deleting it. Delisting from Featured pictures in no way affects the image's status in its article(s).
Evaluate the merit of a nomination against the featured picture criteria. Most users reference terms from this page when evaluating nominations.
Step 2: Create a subpage
For Nominations
To create a subpage of Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates for your nomination, add a title for the image you want to nominate in the field below (e.g., Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Labrador Retriever) and click the "Create new nomination" button.
For Delists (or Delist & Replace)
To create a subpage for your delist, add a title for the image you want to delist/replace in the field below and click the "Create new delist nomination" button.
Write Support, if you approve of the picture. A reason is optional.
Write Oppose, followed by your reasoning, if you disapprove of the picture. All objections should be accompanied by a specific rationale that, if addressed, would make you support the image. If your concern is one that can only be addressed by the creator, and if they haven't nominated or commented on the image, and if they are a Wikipedian, you should notify them directly.
You can weak support or weak oppose instead, so that your opinion will be weighed as half of a "full" opinion.
To change your opinion, strike it out (with <s>...</s>) rather than removing it.
If you think a nominated image obviously fails the featured picture criteria, write Speedy close followed by your reasons. Nominations may be closed early if this is the case.
Recommendations added early in the process may be disregarded if they do not address concerns and/or improvements that arise later in the debate. Reviewers are advised to monitor the progress of a nomination and update their votes accordingly.
Prior to giving an opinion, the image should be assessed on its quality as displayed at full size (high-resolution) in an image editing program. Please note that the images are only displayed at thumbnail size on this page. The thumbnail links to the image description page which, in turn, links to the high-resolution version.
How to comment for Delist Images
Write Keep, followed by your reasons for keeping the picture.
Write Delist, followed by your reasons for delisting the picture.
Write Delist and Replace if you believe the image should be replaced by a better picture.
You can weak keep, weak delist or weak delist and replace instead, so that your opinion will be weighed as half of a "full" opinion.
To change your opinion, strike it out (with <s>...</s>) rather than removing it.
You may find the glossary useful when you encounter acronyms or jargon in other voters' comments. You can also link to it by using {{FPCgloss}}.
Editing candidates
If you feel you could improve a candidate by image editing, please feel free to do so, but do not overwrite or remove the original. Instead, upload your edit with a different file name (e.g., add "edit" to the file name), and display it below the original nomination. Edits should be appropriately captioned in sequential order (e.g., Edit 1, Edit 2, etc), and describe the modifications that have been applied.
Is my monitor adjusted correctly?
In a discussion about the brightness of an image, it is necessary to know if the computer display is properly adjusted. Displays differ greatly in their ability to show shadow detail. There are four dark grey circles in the adjacent image. If you can discern three (or even four) of the circles, your monitor can display shadow detail correctly. If you see fewer than three circles, you may need to adjust the monitor and/or computer display settings. Some displays cannot be adjusted for ideal shadow detail. Please take this into account when voting.
Displays also differ greatly in their ability to show highlight detail. There are light grey circles in the adjacent image. If you can discern three (or even four) of the circles, your monitor can display highlight detail correctly. If you see fewer than three circles, you may need to adjust the monitor and/or computer display settings (probably reduce the contrast setting). Some displays cannot be adjusted for ideal highlight detail. Please take this into account when voting.
On a gamma-adjusted display, the four circles in the color image blend into the background when seen from a few feet (roughly 75–150 cm) away. If they do not, you could adjust the gamma setting (found in the computer's settings, not on the display), until they do. This may be very difficult to attain, and a slight error is not detrimental. Uncorrected PC displays usually show the circles darker than the background. Note that the image must be viewed in original size (263 × 68 pixels) - if enlarged or reduced, results are not accurate.
Note that on most consumer LCD displays (laptop or flat screen), viewing angle strongly affects these images. Correct adjustment on one part of the screen might be incorrect on another part for a stationary head position. Click on the images for more technical information. If possible, calibration with a hardware monitor calibrator is recommended.
Support Hmm, for such a prestigious award the detail is not as smooth as I would've thought - great quality images, but can't we just merge the two into one image? --I'ḏ♥One16:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not with how they're used, really. Plus, it'd look awkward: there'd be a definite border. Also, they're not exactly the same size, which might be noticeable after the merge (might just be a different crop). Adam Cuerden(talk)16:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, as for it not being smooth: I'm not quite sure when the design was finalised (there was a 14 year gap between the first award and the second), but it's similar to other mid 20th century designs, so I believe that was just the style in vogue at the time. Art deco, maybe? I'm not really an art historian. Adam Cuerden(talk)18:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Copyright status link is at [1], by the way. There's currently a protected copy on en-wiki, so I can't update it in a way that'll let it be seen just yet. Adam Cuerden(talk)18:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You cannot use a scanner for three-dimensional objects. Further, as it happens, I haven't won a Fields Medal for outstanding achievement in mathematics, so don't have the option of redoing this myself with a different background (plus, I'm not sure I'd have the right to release the image even if we did: we have these because the group responsible for passing out Fields medals specifically arranged for it to be released without copyright. Had they not done so, I don't think we could use any image of the medal designed in 1933.
Why would you say that? Of course you can use a scanner for 3D objects, especially ones with limited depth like this medal. We have plenty of examples for that on commons. --Dschwen18:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, cutting images out to add a new background - particularly in situations like this, where it changes the context from a presentation box to floating in space without the edge of the medal visible - always looks horrible. Adam Cuerden(talk)01:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, it's atypical. Most objects have a white or black background. White or black contrasts best. (Shadows are aloud, though.) Gut Monk (talk) 01:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see being atypical as a drawback (it might be if this were cartography); as for contrast, the medal is in no danger of blending into the background. Cowtowner (talk) 06:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
High EV for article illustrating cards, Very accurate image, great resolution and detail. I can't see a better image coming about and feel this is FP-worthy.
As far as i am aware they are PD. The reason is becasue the classic Bicycle back design was in use in the 19th century which means according to US copyright law...if there ever was a copyright registered for these cards, the copyright has passed into the public domain due to expiration of copyright. This is just as I understand it however. JFitch(talk)12:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the design was used on published cards in the US in the 19th century, the design is definitely PD, and a note on the image page would be good. Not a template, just a note. J Milburn (talk) 13:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find the composition of this image awkward. While I appreciate the effort to make the angles of the outermost cards equal and balance it, the way that the backwards card goes directly into the Jack makes the whole image feel like it's sliding to the left as a result of the lengthy line. Cowtowner (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Rats, I hate the oppose because I'm a card player, but it feels too manipulated. The Ace is casting too large of a shadow to be legit, at least it's apocryphal. Gut Monk (talk) 00:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I actually wanted to support this, but it's extremely redoable, and what Cowturner says about the composition is correct. J Milburn (talk) 10:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
after these comments I actually tried rotating, reframing, recomposing the same shot, and this is by far the most natural looking. The more you look at it technically you think it's wrong because it's leaning, but thats actually how we are used to seeing cards, everything else I tried looked wrong. JFitch(talk)10:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what I was meaning. I think this would look best if you had the fan as it is, with the lone card slightly separated, paralell to the edge of the image. J Milburn (talk) 13:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This photo shows lets viewers imagine how the mountain looked when it was a volcano, as well as capturing the beauty of it's surroundings (green meadows, teal lakes, and snow capped mountains)
Comment: Currently, this image only appears in image galleries in the articles, and so it is not easy to judge its encyclopedic value. J Milburn (talk) 07:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The greens may look a little bright, but the trees and meadows get bright green in the spring; after all, it is a temperate rainforest. Drblitzz (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the lead image in Black Tusk. Doesn't seem over saturated to me (going on my real-world experience); but, I may just see life in Technicolor. Cowtowner (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The caption appeared very screwed up-it seems the original links had only been given one bracket instead of two around them.I've fixed that now.Lemon martini (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as lead image in Black Tusk article. Good composition and EV, tolerable softness towards right. I'm curious - does anyone know why there is a large group of dead trees standing on the slopes above the lake at lower right? --Avenue (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support'. Great image, but there's a small problem with saturation I think apparently, according to the discussion above there is not :) ResMar13:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Weird picture, doesn't strike me as natural: The snow indicates cold yet grass is vivid green, the immediate foliage line then dark stone, background mountains don't seem to match... --I'ḏ♥One07:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is 100% natural. The reason there is snow on the mountains and grass at Black Tusk is partly because the areas where is grass is lower in elevation. In lower elevated areas it is warmer and therefore more plants can grow. This photo was basically taken on the rim of the valley Black Tusk and the grass lies in. Volcanoguy08:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously. An all-natural photo that appears to have a weird, unnatural affect about it seems like more of reason to vote “support”. Greg L (talk) 18:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 30 Aug 2010 at 04:50:59 (UTC)
Original - Port-aux-Français is the capital settlement of the Kerguelen Islands, Frenchterritory in the south Indian Ocean. It has about 60 winter inhabitants, which can rise to more than 120 in summer. Port-aux-Français has a shallow seaport and a quay for unloading supply ships, including Marion Dufresne (1995).
Reason
I think its a really good picture of the small town
Oppose Sort of underwhelming to me. Not bad at all, and a pretty picture, but doesn't quite meet FP status to me. Composition is the main detractor: the town itself takes up a very small portion of the image - too much space is given to sky and foreground. It also seems like a better shooting location is possible. Jujutaculartalk09:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support; I hear what Juju is saying, but I think the "underwhelming" nature is kind of the point- this is the capital of an immensely isolated group of islands. Really not something you see every day. The technicals and composition are a little lacking, but the incredibly unusual and insteresting subject matter, combined with the fact this is really not something you're likely to see every day, tip the balance for me. J Milburn (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Too much sky. The ground is too dark in order to preserve detail in clouds that aren’t the subject of the photo. This is simply an inferior shot to illustrate the subject matter. Greg L (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think Milburn kinda sums up what I thought but for people that say there more nature then the town. The town is not really big and few people live there beacuse of its isolated location so most of island is not populated and the rest of the island is the nature. Spongie555 (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Photogravures are always attractive, and this is a rather fine example of the medium. Not sure the tinting is needed, but that's certainly what it was meant to look like, give or take a small amount of saturation, unless the ink has faded in very unusual ways.
Comment Not the best nomination you've made, the colors seem especially dull at full size, that's not meant as a put down, just the reason I'm not sure if I support this or not. This postcard(?) was not meant to be +2000px. --I'ḏ♥One23:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More of a souvenier, I believe. In the lower right it talks about Salon 1896, and was released by a notable art dealership house. And, yes, few artworks are going to be meant for large sizes... on computer screens, but the extra detail is advantageous in printing, as it allows a noticably sharper print. Computer screens are fairly low resolution. Adam Cuerden(talk)00:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adam, this may sound rather ignorant, but shouldn't we consider downsampling this image then? It would have the same effect as compressing the print onto a postcard: sharper, more aesthetic. It seems almost foolhardy to try and push a work past the detail its original format afforded it. Cowtowner (talk) 04:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
People do use imags on Commons for printing and the like. While I agree there's not much reason to zoom in quite this much *just to look at it*, downsampling could make this useless for other uses. Adam Cuerden(talk)10:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So it be logical to have a larger image on Commons for printing and one on the online encyclopedia for digital viewing, wouldn't in? Cowtowner (talk) 18:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We've never done things that way. *shrug* If it's going to be implemented, fine, but I suspect it'd need more general discussion, given that scaled-down duplicates are routinely deleted from Commons. Adam Cuerden(talk)19:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not quite enough context for me to support - if it's the beginning of the battle, it needs to say so, and describe what it's showing and how this differs from the later stages. Also, identifying people and/or buildings could help with EV. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 18:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I THINK that's the old church, which the Prussians destroyed. This ought to be a scene of recruiting the citizenry to join in the battle, though my very bad French means it's hard for me to say. Adam Cuerden(talk)19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
??? What do you mean? It's extremely sharp for an underwater pic and only a very tiny piece of a fringe on its back is lost but there are dozens more shown in entirety. --I'ḏ♥One14:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I said underwater, not undersea, IMO I wouldn't give it a full oppose just for it being in captivity. Still, I think it or the alt still showcases the subject pretty well. --I'ḏ♥One22:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The only argument that had much weight was the chromatic aberration point, but I don't think you've made a case for your claim that it's not sharp or why a very tiny piece of cut off fin should disqualify it. --I'ḏ♥One02:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because the FP status is for the best of Wikipedia, and cut off pieces have never been cool at FPC, be they limbs, tails or fins. The argument here is that for maximum EV, you should be able to see the whole thing, rather than having to guess what might be hiding beyond the frame. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alt added wanna see what people think of it, I think it could use a little de-noising, but otherwise none of the problems mentioned by PapaLima I think. --I'ḏ♥One14:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Behold! I don't know, GIMP's white balance is auto, which makes me kind of wary because it doesn't give the person the option to use their knowledge of real-world color to have a say in what it does or if it's realistic. But color wise this is better, it's easier to differentiate the animal from it's surroundings its obviously meant to camouflage into. Still needs de-noising, should I try the graphics lab? --I'ḏ♥One22:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support (original only) Underwater photography that is nice and clear and has good color balance is hard to come by. The leafy sea dragon is a camouflaged animal, so seeing it next typical habitat and where that habitat is in the background with *just* the right touch of being out of focus is a treat. I think this is a paradigm tutorial for how to shoot a camouflaged animal. Greg L (talk) 22:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 30 Aug 2010 at 02:58:26 (UTC)
Original - A pile of various types of potatoes.
Reason
Very good image that many different examples of the subjects, potatoes have a tradition of various looks because they are heirloom plants. There is another potato picture already featured, but it's different, it only shows one example of a specific type which is not even shown amongst these, so I don't think either should be stepping on the other the other's toes...
They use what's considered native potatoes, these in the picture are a little more domesticated but not as refined as the commercial ones. — raekyt13:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for its use in potato, but I do feel the heirloom issue should be clarified in the caption. I normally like images like this, but can't help feeling this lacks something. J Milburn (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 29 Aug 2010 at 15:30:20 (UTC)
Original - An adult monkey, the Olive Baboon (Papio anubis), grooms a kid at the Ngorongoro conservation Area in TanzaniaEdit to address DOF concerns. (Go to full size to see differences - thumbnails are currently unreliable.)
Reason
Good quality, EV and an Interesting view. Did very well at commons FPC.
Weak Oppose All I do like this shot but for me the DOF is just way too shallow. The background doesn't look anywhere near distracting enough to warrent the shallow DOF that it's been given. JFitch(talk)17:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Great image - while there may not be a need for a shallow DOF, I don't think that there is a need not to have one, either. The main subject, the faces of the monkeys, stand out and are of good quality as I view it, which is why I support. ~SuperHamsterTalkContribs02:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your mass sharpening hasn't solved the problem, plus you've now added a whole lot of noise to the picture. It needs to be done better and masked correctly, or better still just re shot. JFitch(talk)15:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should be sure of what you're talking about before you use bold type. There is no mass sharpening, it's inverse selective sharpening, for starters. Did you look at the full size image, as you were specifically instructed to because the thumbnailer is broken? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The edit has added a bit of noise but IMO the sharpness is much better. Doesn't look oversharpened to me. Could you please apply a slight NR as well, PLW? Thanks. If it were so easy to shot this in the first place, it would have been done sooner --Muhammad(talk)18:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know exactly what i was talking about, i have no idea what you just made up though. Yes the sharpening has made it sharper, it has not fixed the DOF problem however which is a different issue. Inverse selective? sorry? Despite not being anything at all...there was clearly no selection involved, or did you deliberately add noise to the BG ? JFitch(talk)21:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support either version. It's illustrative and aesthetically good. I don't see why and how a bigger DOF would make it any better. --Ikiwaner (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While the source states the origin (PROCEDÈNCIA: Archivio Militare dell’Areonautica Italiana, Roma) as the archive of the Italian Airforce that does not necessarily mean they were the author, they could have got it from anywhere. So, how are we certain that Italian copyright applies? IMHO this needs to be cleared up. ww2censor (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"it may be considered an Italian work" - a photo taken by the Italian air-force on a bomb-raid is IMO an Italian work. I simply cannot think of any clearer case. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR18:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All you actually know at this stage is that the image is in the possession of the Italian Airforce archives, not who produced it. ww2censor (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The italian air force produced it during their bomb raid. As written above, they bombed the city and it's not like there's a lot of amateur fliers in the sky during a bombardment taking photos, which then mysteriously end up in the Italian air-force's archive. The notion that the Italian air-force did bomb the city, but someone else took the photo is beyond me. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR19:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but you and ww2censor are questioning different things, so my above answer was to him. To break it down, 1) was the picture produced by the Italian air-force? Yes, I think that's fairly established by now. 2) Can the picture be considered "an Italian work"? Yes I really think so. Being a product by the fascist army, a part of the Italian state, it does not get any more Italian. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR20:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(outdented)* From the license template: "it was either created in Italy or may be considered an Italian work within the meaning of Italian law" emphasis added Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR21:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)][reply]
Ok, that's one discussion to have, but that's not actually the discussion I'm trying to have- yes, the Italian law says that it is PD if it is considered an Italian work and so on and so forth, but what I'm asking is why we care. Surely, in this case, we should be considering the Spanish law. If minor nation x says "any work taken in Europe in the last ten years in PD", we aren't going to take a 2005 picture from France and say "oh, it's public domain!" J Milburn (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this case very similar to how we use works by the US military? If a DoD employed photographer takes a picture in a foreign country, it's considered PD, correct? Wouldn't a similar logic apply here? Cowtowner (talk) 00:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not the same thing, at all. The US Military takes a picture, and so it belongs to them- they then release it. That's the same under (pretty much) any law. Again, IANAL, but I would like to see some solid reasoning as to why we're going with the Italian law here, other than the fact it conveniently gives us a nice PD image. J Milburn (talk) 01:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a lawyer either; but it seems to stand to reason that the Italian military takes a photo, its copyright belongs to them. That copyright expires, ergo it is PD. Cowtowner (talk) 03:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am not saying the copyright doesn't/didn't belong to them, but it's not that they have released it. You're claiming that it's out of copyright according to Italian law; I'm saying it's Spanish law we should care about. See what I'm saying? J Milburn (talk) 07:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From the article it states "or may be considered national works" emphasis added. Being a product of the State's air-force, does it get any more national? I'm no expert, would like some expert opinion, but I think this one is pretty safe. By the way, when the negatives were produced in Italy, does that make the photographs Italian? Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR14:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know that, Milburn. But I still don't see your rationale for using Spanish law beyond the fact that the Italians were in their airspace. Like Sandman says, I think the creator trumped that in this case. Could you explain yourself further and perhaps excuse me for being thick? Cowtowner (talk) 16:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The picture was taken in Spain- therefore, Spanish law applies? That seems pretty clear to me? If it was published elsewhere, there may be a discussion to be had- this is the point, I don't really know right now. J Milburn (talk) 17:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, though, you say "I think the creator trumped that in this case", but I really don't think we should be promoting this unless we're sure. The point I'm trying to make is that, at this stage, we really need a clarification of what law applies, whether this is PD in the country whose law matters and whether this is PD in the US, rather than this guesswork. J Milburn (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you, but I still don't think it matters. Look at many of the images we have taken from photographers traveling in countries which are foreign to them. The images they take are theirs and they take that copyright with them. I see no reason to expect that the Spanish government would have any control over the actions of an Italian photographer unless he were producing an image of something that was copyrighted in Spain (And I can't see that being the case here). To me, the issue is very cut and dried. Cowtowner (talk) 00:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not the same thing. I am not saying that the Italian Airforce doesn't/didn't own the image- that is not disputed- we are disputing which country's copyright law applies. I take a picture in Spain, develop it in Italy, move to Switzerland, then settle in Sweden (by the way, I'm a Norwegian citizen born in Finland to Swedish parents). The picture belongs to me in all those places, and it may be PD in some of them, but we're concerned about whether this is PD in the source country and/or the United States. This work may be PD in Italy, it may be PD in Iran, it may be PD in Sealand. We don't care. What matters is whether it is PD in the United States, and that can depend on whether it is public domain in the source country. J Milburn (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Outdent) Under Spanish law collective works (I assume this would qualify) are protected for 70 years after their publication; if this image were ever published in Spain (and I haven't seen any evidence that it has been), it would have been done so most likely during the war which ended in 1939 making the work PD. Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have had to be published in Spain for their law to apply? Cowtowner (talk) 17:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, but at some point we have to draw the line and say an image wasn't actually published in a given country. The burden of proof, if I can call it that, is really on establishing that the image was published in Spain for this case. Looking at the source, it was provided by an Italian archive (where it is PD) and therefore, presumably, no one owns the copyright in Spain or it would not have been allowed to be published in the manner it was. Cowtowner (talk) 05:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What law are you citing there? I don't see why we should assume that, just because it wasn't published in Spain, it has nothing to do with Spain. Spain can't stop it being published in Italy, just as hypothetical British museums can't stop images being published on hypothetical American websites. A lot of things that are PD in the US are not PD in the source country- anything published before 1923 is PD in the US, despite the fact it may not be in England, Spain, Italy or Iran. Let's go back to basics- this image is claimed public domain. Why is it public domain in the United States? J Milburn (talk) 09:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I wasn't the one who asserted that, the tag on the file page states that because it is a simple photograph created before 1976 which makes it PD in Italy. Because it was PD in Italy, it has become PD in the US. It does not appear to have subsisting copyright issues. This comes back to the root issue of whether Italian law matters or Spanish law does. I still believe that Italian law does because this is an Italian work because it was created by their air force. Simply, Italian copyright law applies because it is a national work even though it was created in Spain. Cowtowner (talk) 19:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The legalese is here. I believe the pertinent part is (b) which effectively states that if it's public domain there, it's public domain in the US. Cowtowner (talk) 00:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I'm not sure that is the relevant part... Basically, I'd be willing to slap this with this template, apart from the fact this is PD in the Italy, not, as far as I can see, the source country, which is Spain. J Milburn (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the source country of the work would have to be Italy: it is an Italian national work because it was created by their air force. Cowtowner (talk) 23:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting ridiculous- we're going around in circles here, where I say "why does Italian law apply?" and you say "Because it was taken by an Italian" and I say "but it was taken in Spain" and you say "yeah, by an Italian". To use a simple and flawed analogy, an American citizen can't walk the streets of the UK carrying a handgun and say "it's alright- I'M AMERICAN!" Until we see some evidence that this is PD beyond "I'd like it to be" or "it would make sense for it to be" or "it'd be convenient for it to be", we really can't promote this. I'm on the verge of nominating this for deletion. J Milburn (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's been ridiculous for a while now. The analogy above is, indeed, flawed. Personally the only analogous situation is DoD works as I've mentioned it above. We may as well, as you suggest, nom it for deletion and suspend this to get some fresh and presumably more experienced people working on it. We've clearly gone nowhere. Cowtowner (talk) 02:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not analogous- those works are PD because of who made them, not because their copyright has run out. I'm not disputing that copyright did/does belong to the Italian Airforce (who could then, as the DOD does, release them into the public domain if they so wish). Instead, you're saying "this did belong to the Italian Airforce, but has now become public domain because of its age". J Milburn (talk) 08:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not helpful. However, the next step is someone adding a template explaining the copyright status in the US, as, frankly, it doesn't matter whether it's in the PD in Italy. J Milburn (talk) 10:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per nom. The unusually lucky lighting angle is an interesting effect I haven’t seen before in aerial bombardment photos before. And when I click on the fully zoomed version, it is quite sharp and interesting. Very unusual for its genre. Greg L (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I believe that the image is PD, entirely on the basis of creator. Unless this was published in Spain at any time, I have no idea how or why Spanish law applies - it never applies to DoD works on Wikipedia, and never will. Mostlyharmless (talk) 11:01, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not the same thing. The DOD takes pictures and then releases them; that works under any law. What is being claimed here is that a picture taken in Spain is PD under Italian law, and so must be PD in the US. Very different thing. As I said below, at the very least, we will need a tag explaining the copyright status in the US- at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if it's PD in Italy, only whether it's PD in the US. J Milburn (talk) 10:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support As the discussion above was collapsed I'll just put in my closing thoughts here (Milburn and I can go on forever, I've little more to say on the matter after this). I believe the image is PD. I think it is rational to believe that the Italian air force has the rights to this image and that they no longer hold the copyright to it (as a result of Italian law making any image before 1976 PD). As I showed above, because it is PD there, it is PD in the US. As for its status in Spain, it would have had to have been published in Spain for the nation's laws to come into consideration here. I've seen no evidence of this and even if it were published there it would have likely been during the war which would still make this image PD as Spanish copyright for collective works expires 70 years after its first publication. The Spain point is, however, moot given the situation in Italy. As for how to continue, I would suggest that we contact all of the voters and see if a broader consensus is reached on the image's status. If the consensus is in favor of it being PD, we can promote the image and move on. If Milburn still feels strongly enough about this after the fact it can be nominated for deletion and delisting. Cowtowner (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At danger of repeating myself (and, for what it's worth, I strongly think the discussion should not have been colllapsed- it was relevant and unconcluded) we cannot promote this until we are certain about the copyright. At the very least, we will need to see a copyright tag explaining its status in the US as well as in Italy- at the end of the day, we don't really care what its status is in Italy unless it is pertinent to its status in the US (which it may or may not be, yadda yadda). It wouldn't even be important on Commons, where an image is required to be PD in the source country (in this case, Spain- it was taken in Spain, that's its source, that's where it comes from- there's really no point debating that) and the US. J Milburn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That tag is on there. It does explain why it is PD in Italy and therefore in the US. You know how I feel about the source. If we reach a consensus about the copyright here then we can promote it. If we don't we'll suspend and look for other avenues be it a deletion nomination or something else. Cowtowner (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see it does. That would be true if the source country for this was Italy. Right, I'm gonna go ahead and nominate it for deletion. J Milburn (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 29 Aug 2010 at 13:41:21 (UTC)
Original - North façade of the royal Château de Chambord at Chambord, Loir-et-Cher, France.
Reason
Image is very large (5,530 × 3,456) and of high quality, of one of France's most famous château. High encyclopaedic value, and whilst a tighter crop than another FP of the same subject, it's sharper and of higher resolution.
The light is nicer than the existing FP, but the resolution is actually only marginally better. This version is not very sharp and basically no more architectural details can be seen than in the existing FP. So sharper and of higher resolution is over-selling it quite a bit. --Dschwen13:58, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Granted it's not much higher resolution but the artefacting of the original, especially in the roofline, appears rather greater to me. bad_germ14:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the late reply, as Chick says, it's a channel from a river formed into a moat; I don't know what the stuff on the other side is, but suspect it to be fireworks related as they have a fireworks show every week. bad_germ07:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional supportOppose Make a subheading that Chambord has a moat (or whatever), because per Milburn, the picture doesn't add much otherwise. Also, can you readily take another picture? Gut Monk (talk) 01:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rats, its a good picture, better I would argue because it shows the moat, but per Milburn, I think that the other shouldn't be bumped out. Gut Monk (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is why I was asking whether you can retake it. The other has three things going for it. First, it's sharper (but this is a function of time of day, year, and amount of sunlight/clouds; not camera.) Second, the color in the current FP is bolder; the house looks great, but would you look at how lush that grass looks?! Lastly, there are people in the other FP, and I think that adds a lot. Cheers if you get another picture. Gut Monk (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The moat/channel is interesting, but I am not convinced that this is the best image to illustrate it. Unless we are going to claim that this one should replace the other FP, I don't think we really have a leg to stand on, EV-wise. J Milburn (talk) 09:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I actually far prefer this by far to the muddy-coloured view of the other FP. This shows the house, clearly and crisply. The other shows... the lush grass. Lighting matters. Adam Cuerden(talk)09:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is why I would argue the former. The lush grass, while a photographic trick, makes the image eye-catching. See my above critique? Gut Monk (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I also really prefer this picture over the other because of lighting, also composition and the lack of people distracting from the shot. JFitch(talk)19:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I whole heartedly disagree. I find the people non-distracting, and, I argue, they add a sense of vitality to the castle (like it's not an abandoned monument). Gut Monk (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The image is of the chateau, not of an event there so the people are simply a distraction. It's understood that there would be people there, but as a best representation of the chateau, it should be without distractions. JFitch(talk)09:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The image has been moved down to the gallery, and that about sums up my issue here- it's not showing anything not already shown. I'd imagine that if someone went to work on the article, the gallery'd be the first thing to go. J Milburn (talk) 23:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 29 Aug 2010 at 13:33:55 (UTC)
Original - A monarch butterfly shortly after tagging at the Cape May Bird Observatory. The Observatory is one of the organisation that has a monarch identification tagging program. Plastic stickers are placed on the wing of the insect with identification information. Tracking information is used to study the migration patterns of monarchs, including how far and where they fly.
Reason
I was pretty amazed when I saw this- I'm really surprised this is done. Certainly got a stop and stare from me. Good quality, clear EV in illustrating the tagging programme discussed in the article, interesting subject matter.
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 29 Aug 2010 at 02:38:05 (UTC)
Original - Meteor Crater, USA
Reason
I don't usually renominate images if they fail, but I guess I blame myself for suggesting it with too many other choices, so this time it's all about this one since it got the most positive feedback in the last nomination but still fell through. I think this is a very good and high EV image of what might be the best preserved, something like 50,000 years old, meteorite strike on Earth - and over a mile (or kilometre) across, pretty huge, too. I just think that if this doesn't get promoted it at least deserves some outright opposes, if there are any reasons to that is.
Really? I would think the solar shadow on the eastern(? not sure of directions) portion, the elevated rim and lit western(?) part would make it always look like a depression, maybe the issue is top-down logic. --I'ḏ♥One03:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak, weak oppose. Good quality, but I don't get the same sense of depth or scale after looking at File:Barringer Crater panoramic.jpg. Unless this was on another planet, I wouldn't ask for a side view, but in this case, an aerial view just doesn't do it justice. SpencerT♦C18:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 28 Aug 2010 at 21:20:55 (UTC)
Original - Death masks are wax or plaster masks of a person's face made after the person's death. Here, two workers, circa 1908, use plaster to create a mold of the deceased person's face in order to create the death mask.Edit 1Did some light restoration work.Edit 2 Removed textEdit 3 Re-restored from originalEdit 4 Re-Re-restored from original with effort to maintain detail
Reason
great historic image from 1908 showing how death masks are made. It has great EV. I, for one, did not know how they are made. How is the dead body handled? Do they apply plaster on the body as it's lying down? etc. The high res of this image, the historical significance, and the fact that it's the only image in the article showing how death masks are made are the top reasons why this should be a featured pic
Comment: A few thoughts. Firstly, what's the reason to have a historical shot- why not have a higher quality current one? Secondly, this photo could benefit from some cleanup. Thirdly, some more details would be nice- I assume that's the actual body? Where was this taken? Why is a death mask being created? J Milburn (talk) 13:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)\[reply]
On the first count, I'm pretty sure that death masks are more or less archaic now as there is little utility for them (cameras are used to document the dead). On the third count, it is most likely a body and the WP article states that death masks were often used to create portraits, to serve as mementos or in forensic investigations. Cowtowner (talk) 17:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are focusing too hard on the “creating a death mask” part of this. If that’s all it was, why not—as you say—show a photo of the very finest and latest technology for doing so? But the subject here is “creating a death mask historically.” I find the way these practitioners dressed to be interesting. How one dressed a hundred years ago was important signaling of social hierarchy and it is quite easy to see who was the assistant here in this picture and who was the proprietor. Sometimes historical images, like this image of an old surgery, are interesting because they are old and help us to realize how things have changed. Perhaps all this caption needs is a tweak to emphasis the historical nature of it. Greg L (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can talk about "social hierarchy" and such all you like, but unless it's of importance to the article, it's irrelevant. If I was to nominate a picture of a mushroom obscured by moss and leaves, I couldn't babble on about the interesting moss and the pretty leaves in order to suggest it's better than a picture than one where the mushroom is clear. J Milburn (talk) 20:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now you’re just howling at the moon to listen to your own echo. The article says death masks are made of wax or plaster. This one shows a plaster death mask being made so it obviously illustrates how its done. Do you think they now use CAD software to robot-apply plaster? Or maybe you think the technique no longer works unless there is an iPhone sticking out of a Raiders jacket? The fact that it shows the face of a deceased individual is unusual. That it is historical is eye-catching. If you don’t like it, vote “oppose”. I can’t take any more of your rants today. Bye… Greg L (talk) 22:53, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rants? What's ranty here? If anyone has been ranty recently... What I said was completely valid, and it really reveals the strength of your position when you reply like that. We wouldn't accept a low quality image of an animal purely because it's "historical", even if it did show a few irrelevant historical aspects, so why accept this? J Milburn (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per Greg. Although, I'm shocked by how horrific the behavior is. (Although those two guys seem to be digging it; defiantly not the third, though.) Gut Monk (talk) 01:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Even if we ignore the EV/contextual issues, promoting this, when the image itself is in such dire need of restoration, would be utterly ridiculous. J Milburn (talk) 10:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We would be throwing high hurdles at ourselves and our nominators if we required that image editing and restoration had to be performed on old pictures that suffered in minor ways from the ravages of time. Sometimes, as when I jumped in and volunteered on the Edward Teller FPC, we can get these images cleaned up. But doing a good job on some of these images requires specialized skills and sometimes people are too busy to volunteer. This nomination is a clean and proper scan of an old artifact. Accepting it as such doesn’t strike me as “ridiculous”; it’s purely an aesthetic issue as to whether we may treat the image like the Mona Lisa (the colors of which have yellowed and dulled with time) without trying to make the image here look better than the actual artifact. I hadn’t even noticed the little tears in the emulsion and other age-related effects until you pointed it out that it should be considered a flaw. To me, this image is properly representative of what it is: an old historical photo. Greg L (talk) 23:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need a "proper scan of an old artifact", we need a solid illustration of the making of a death mask. FPC is about the best images, so, yes, we do have to expect that older images in a poor state are given restoration work. The in-image labelling is also rather distracting. If you didn't notice the scratches, I question whether you've actually looked close enough at this picture to be qualified to judge it... J Milburn (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Methinks thee should actually look at images before voting on them. That's the point I'm fricking making. If you didn't see the appalling quality of the image, what the hell did you look at? The thumbnail, very quickly? I'm not suggesting I'm some kind of expert while you're not, I'm suggesting that if you want to have an opinion on it, you fricking look at it. And congratulations on picking up on the really important part of my comment to discuss, rather than, y'know, the bit actually pertinent to the image. J Milburn (talk) 08:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ohhhhhh You mean, “Look at the picture up close!” (silly me) Did I forget to do that? Let me check… nope. As I wrote above (but you seem pleased to ignore) is I have no problem with a fine scan of an aged original, just like I have no problem with fine scans of cracked or yellowed oil pantings. You wrote we do have to expect that older images in a poor state are given restoration work. I suspect you used the majestic plural-form of “we” there; what is clear is you think volunteers here must do image restoration on scans of aged originals. I don’t. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. You know: celebrate diversity and all that. Greg L (talk) 00:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you "look[ed] at the picture up close" but "hadn’t even noticed the little tears in the emulsion and other age-related effects", I feel for your optician. The point is that this picture is not being used to illustrate the photo (if it was, I'm sure we could have a very interesting discussion about this) it's being used to illustate the making of a death mask. So, is this a good picture of the picture? Yes, it shows the state it's in and everything. Is this a good picture of the making of a death mask? Nope, the original picture is in a poor state and has things written all over it. J Milburn (talk) 11:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with your ability to understand English? How many times and how many ways do I have to write that I did see all the age-related flaws and don’t have a problem with them? How many times do I have to write that I think the flaws are akin to a proper scan of an aged original, like the Mona Lisa? Don’t you get it? Or are you deliberately trying to be provocative here? I will no longer deal with you on this nomination because you are behaving too oddly for me to possibly handle. Greg L (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You said "I hadn’t even noticed the little tears in the emulsion and other age-related effects". In the English I speak, that means you didn't see them. J Milburn (talk) 09:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It means precisely as I wrote it: I hadn’t even noticed the little tears in the emulsion and other age-related effects until you pointed it out that it should be considered a flaw. I had zoomed in and looked intently at what the scene was showing—the information being portrayed. The scratches and other age-related flaws didn’t bother me in the slightest or even get any of my attention. Your comment above (If you didn't notice the scratches, I question whether you've actually looked close enough at this picture to be qualified to judge it is just arrogance because it assumes that if someone looks closely at the image, the age-related defects must to be something that jumps out to the forefront of one’s mind and overcomes the rest of the image. I could just as easily have said that “Anyone who looked at a zoom and wasn’t captivated by all the interesting things in the image like the clothing of the owner and his employee and was instead distracted by silly things like scratches in the emulsion of a picture from 1908 is someone I question is qualified to judge the image.” But I didn’t, because I don’t wouldn’t want to be so obstreperous. I like the image. You don’t. I’m fine with that. You aren’t. To bad; that is something you’re going to have to deal with. Greg L (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I did some light restoration work on the photo and uploaded it as Edit 1. You can decide which version you like better. --AutoGyro (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: the words "Making Death Mask 305.1" need removed from the image: That wasn't painted on, that was scratched into the emulsion, probably by ancient LoC curators. Adam Cuerden(talk) 08:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)Support Edit 3Adam Cuerden(talk)16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't suddenly mean it's OK. We're not using this to illustrate historical photograph cataloging methods; it adds nothing to the image but does take a lot away. J Milburn (talk) 23:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Compare edit two to the first one side by side, it's lost the colour, sharpness and detail the original had. One step forward, two steps back. J Milburn (talk) 11:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My support vote applies to whichever one is closest to a consensus, or all of them. I don’t mind the age-related flaws. And I don’t mind the cleaned-uped versions either. Greg L (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support interesting subject. I don't mind the text in the original, I thought the photo quality in that one was the best but whichever the closer decides... --I'ḏ♥One20:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments on the edits, please. This appears to have enough supports for something to get promoted, although it's not clear what (5 general supports and 1 support for edit 3). Makeemlighter (talk) 22:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we have to promote one, edit 3 is the best, but it's still not as good as it could be. Not the best restoration work I have seen. (I couldn't do better, in case someone wants to pretend to be ten years old, but I've still got a right to expect a high standard at FPC...) J Milburn (talk) 23:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel there's serious quality loss in Edit 3 from the original, compare the hair in both of the man on your left. --I'ḏ♥One00:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Why doesn't someone try a full restoration from the Library of Congress TIFF (download from [4]) instead of the one I uploaded from Shorpy? howcheng {chat}17:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus never developed here on which, if any, version to promote. The edits added late in the game may be worthy of promotion, but they received very few comments. Moreover, Howcheng's suggestion of restoration from the original presents the possibility of an even better version. At the very least, a larger version could be uploaded. None of that would be necessary for a re-nomination, but the re-nominator would need to select the best of the edits to nominate (along with the original, probably). There's no need to wait to re-nominate if anyone feels one of the versions worthy; we just need a new nomination with 9 days of attention up top to sort this mess out. Makeemlighter (talk) 06:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 28 Aug 2010 at 18:09:48 (UTC)
Original - Fly of the Tabanidae family (Haematopota pseudolusitanica) showing the blade-like mouth parts, used to draw blood from large mammals, including men. The pictured wings and colorful eyes are characteristic of the Haematopota genus (Cleg Fly)
Reason
High quality picture showing characteristic features of the family (blade-like mouth parts, robust antennae) and genus (pictured wings, colorful eyes), adding to the articles EV
Oppose Reluctantly. I thought this was fairly eye-catching. But upon inspecting the full-res version, I find it barely meets the resolution requirements (which isn’t a strike against it but neither is it a virtue). The deal breaker for me was that the in entire back end of the fly is out of focus. Another shortcoming is the crop, or lack thereof. This couldn’t be cropped tighter without breaking the resolution minimum. Greg L (talk) 03:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I agree that it would be better if the back was better and we got a close-up of the bug, but as is I think it still is decent. --I'ḏ♥One03:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's a great photo with great technical standard. However, the angle is cliche. Consider how a 45 degrees up, 45 degrees to the right, picture would look; that's approaching interesting. Gut Monk (talk) 01:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given that some people are complaining about depth of field, changing the angle so that the main elements are no longer within the same focal plane is unlikely to help much. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How should I respond to a aesthetical criticism (a "cliché" angle) when the purpose of this particular composition is to show some particular characteristic features of the family (mouth parts, antennae) and the genus (wings)? Also, I don't think the argument about the size is fair, since the image is within the 2 Mp requirement, the subject takes most part of the space and those features are shown in sufficient detail. The new size requirements are certainly not to be applied to the subject only! -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 23:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I called it by an incorrect name. In any case it lead to a "Does not exist" type message but that has since disappeared, apparently without any action on my part. Cowtowner (talk) 06:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted - that's magazine style printing there, and while the overall resolution is quite reasonable, when I scale it to 1000px across, there does seem to be a significant amount of noise in the image that seems to come from the printing technique. At 1200px, I can just about see that it was printed in this way. So you're right that it would be in keeping with our tradition to reject this reproduction. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 06:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We have accepted half-toning before for literary illustrations - Guy Mannering and The Story of the Mikado, specifically, as they were made for book illustrations, and published that way. The major issue is that paintings have a lot of fine detail, which we've traditionally required all of. Photos, especially fairly early photos, are grainy and thus have a limited resolution anyway, which the half-toning probably doesn't obscure. Adam Cuerden(talk)16:34, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support For historical importance, though a painting would be nicest (considering the still-developing but poor quality of photographs back then), if a free one exists anywhere. --I'ḏ♥One04:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 28 Aug 2010 at 15:59:09 (UTC)
Original - Africans celebrating Spain's victory in the final of 2010 FIFA World Cup
Reason
Features both teams that played the final through their flags. Spanish flag is bigger than Dutch's, suggesting that Spain won the final. African people are flying the flags, suggesting that the final was played in Africa. It features a vuvuzela in the background, one of the symbols of 2010 FIFA World Cup.
Oppose This is a dramatic and timely photo, but the darkness of the colors and the saturation (possibly from a “vivid” setting on the camera), makes it not a high-quality photo. Greg L (talk) 17:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since when does having bright colours make photos low-quality? I think there are certainly other issues with this photo, but it's not the result of having bright colours. Both the Dutch and Spanish flags are quite vibrant. Cowtowner (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The blurred motion of the flags expresses the energy of the event well, and that's what makes it art. But that's usually not encyclopaedic. --12.9.64.4 (talk) 18:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Images of fans may have a place in the articles, but I don't think this is the case here. Also, the Spanish flag is upside down. Cowtowner (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can see some value in this photo, but it's not of particularly high standard. The caption is also a bit confusing - the two people are (according to the uploader) South Africans rather than the more vague 'Africans' (though I'd be interested to know how this was established given that people traveled from around the world to watch the World Cup) and the fact that both the Spanish and Dutch flags are being waved doesn't really support a claim that they're "Celebrating Spain's victory in the final of 2010 FIFA World Cup". Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as above. A nice enough image, but there are technical, contextual and EV issues (all discussed above) which really stop it being FP material. J Milburn (talk) 11:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, it's an allegory for the sinking of the Luisitania. But, joking aside, it's rather an interesting, artistic poster; good EV for both the artist and recruitment, and adds a bit of variety to WWI articles.
Support Given the poster’s age, it is in fine condition. Furthermore, the scan is very high quality. The subject matter (war propaganda) and the historical nature make it eye-catching. Greg L (talk) 17:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The article on the artist mentions nothing about his propaganda work, and we already have an FP in the article to illustrate his work. J Milburn (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've clarified the caption at his article: this was one of his political cartoons before it was propoganda (it thanks his newspaper for giving the Navy permission for the Navy to reuse it). His work for the New York Herald as a political cartoonist is discussed.
Not for Voting, Provided here for comparison: Our other FP of this artist's work: Rather obscure context, hence probably not as good of illustration of the artist's article. Also, not as eye-catching.
I also think this does a better job at illustrating his article than the current FP, since the context is much more clear and well-known - WWI vs. Great White Fleet. (Not to bash that FP: It has reasonably high value in its other articles.) Adam Cuerden(talk)16:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's not really an obstacle to promoting. If Howcheng can't see how to describe it, I can live with that. Thugh I do think that a fair amount can be said about it. Adam Cuerden(talk)19:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the fact that it's a bit gruesome. The bloody knife with bits of skin and tendons hanging off it make me think this may not really be destined for the front page. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 00:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, PLW, don't you know? Violence is fine. It's sex and bodily functions we can't put there. ;) (It's true, though. We've featured videos of people being shot, and this on the main page...) Adam Cuerden(talk)00:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since every other line is straight, and given the border is very obviously hand-drawn, I believe that's original. It's actually fairly hard to perspective-distort a scanned image, but very common for lithographs and engravings to have one or more sides not quite square. Adam Cuerden(talk)22:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, possibly more of a footnote. The image is being used in list of terms used for Germans in a way that suggests POV problems - it's claimed there as an "anthropomorphised Germany", but Deutscher Michel is a less POVed and more canonical example of that, with "Germania" as a second option that is a later, Romantic era development, thus having narrower EV. But the nominee seems more of a spontaneous idea rather than part of a longer tradition (Deutscher Michel dates back to 1541 and is still in use in contemporary editorial cartoons and the like). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've changed it. Turns out the only half-decent representation of Deutscher Michel that we have is actually an advertisement, so I've gone with Germania instead. If it gets removed, it's probably just as well - it's in no way required for the article. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since you can see every pimple and strand of hair pretty well, I am satisfied with its level of detail. I think this is a high EV image in its main use and captures hime without some of the fancier glasses that he wears on his face.
1) We want our I.P.s to be sufficiently interested in the subject matter to click the article. Or we want the picture to be so stunning and eye-catching that they want to click the picture.
1a) As to the subject matter: Just pardon me all over the place, but this is a rapper.(Disclaimer) There’s nothing wrong with that. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and there are many other articles that have more of that “encyclopedic feel” and less of that People magazine or MTV-feel to the subject matter. 1b) As to the eye-catching quality of the image: The lighting here was an on-camera strobe, which is certainly not what would be considered fine, exemplary photography; not by a long shot is this exemplary, eye-catching, fine photography.
2) You did it again. The guy’s “origin” is Chicago. (*sigh*)
This is looking to be another one of your Chicago-themed “Bubba” recreations from “Forrest Gump”:
“Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it.”
All we’re getting from you is “Chicago-kabobs, Chicago creole, Chicago gumbo, and Chicago sandwiches. Oh… and Chicago rappers. (*thoughtful pause*) That- that's about it.”
And no, I won’t argue with you or anyone about this. I stated my reasoning. The only proper remedy is to counter my vote with 2+ “support” votes. Greg L (talk) 02:39, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying my reasoning doesn’t address the criteria? Or are you just trying to make a point for no particular reason than to sound tough? I don’t think it’s a fine-quality photo. So shoot me. Go complain to someone who cares. I don’t think it’s an interesting subject. So shoot me. A lot of us are sick of all his Chicago nominations (there are other places on this planet). That’s not in the *official* criteria but WP:Common sense and WP:NOT A BUREAUCRACY clearly apply in a case where we have one cyber squatter inundating the FP queue with Chicago. But that “Chicago-saturation” issue is just icing on the cake to the other reasoning that speaks straight to the heart of valid reasons to oppose. If either of you two are arguing that we want even more Chicago-related photography, I have news for you: you need to wake up and smell the coffee because a bunch of are sick of it. If you think this is fine photograph and/or fascinating subject matter that will appeal to a nice wide segment of our readership, I’ll allow you to vote “support” (even though doing so would, IMO, being ignoring the criteria so we could ignore your vote). Adios. Greg L (talk) 03:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A) While the 'too many Chicago pics' argument has some merit, it is particularly weak here given that he is very widely known outside of Chicago and the public association is not that strong. B) The fact that he is a rapper has absolutely no bearing on the eligibility of a portrait of him. Please recognize the difference between the spectrum of your interests and the spectrum of Wikipedia. C) I actually was about to oppose the nomination, and had some comments about the technical details when I edited-conflicted with you. I was a bit dismayed at your comments, to say the least. But no, I won't be supporting. Jujutaculartalk03:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As you know, I don't buy many of Greg's arguments. However, this is not an FP-worthy portrait. The focus and lighting aren't perfect, the cut-off sunglasses are a little distracting, and so on and so forth. J Milburn (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per J Milburn, technicals are very poor. I'm also looking at it wondering why his head hasn't fallen off his shoulders he's leaning that much! JFitch(talk)11:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per J Milburn, although I am one of the people who would appreciate something other than Chicago pictures... I do also agree with Jujutacular that this isn't exactly a representative of Chicago - he is too global for people to look at him and think "Chicago"... gazhiley12:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An excellent scan, from a source that we would be wise to exploit to its fullest. As a bonus, this part of the myth is poorly illustrated by all our other illustrations.
Support more quality etching, and historic artwork has obvious, automatic EV for showing us how people's tastes, artistic inspirations and methods have changed, so it's kind of anthropological IMO, but.. You should mix it up more. Part of the charm in these is their rarity and if this passes at this nomination, like these usually do, we'll have 2 etchings right next to each other, which makes them seem a bit less rare and valuable than they are again IMO. --I'ḏ♥One04:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This sort of thing is what I'm good at restoring (and what I own a lot of). I do try to mix it up with subjects, century, and type; for example, the next one's going to be a watercolour image of Treasure Island,Strike that: the scans were appallingly bad quality. but, while I may do the occasional photo (c.f. Buffalo Bill and Sitting Bull, below), if you're interested in historical works, you're going to have a lot of black and white art, but have almost limitless subject matter within that restriction. Oh, by the way, the photogravures from the first edition of The Magnificent Ambersons are in the queue. Adam Cuerden(talk)08:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IdLoveOne, there is no "automatic EV" for historical artwork, don't be ridiculous. This image can only have EV for what it shows, not for what it is. This is being used as an illustration, not an example. At this point I have no opinion on the EV, but I do know that your reasoning is utterly flawed. J Milburn (talk) 11:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, history is encyclopedic, art is generally a major aspect of human society and civilization, once upon a time this was high art, and now it teaches us about a major development in humanity that ultimately lead to the more complex intelligence we now have. What is considered art now, even if weird or whatever, say, Michael Jackson is to you are both tiny steps in the shaping of mankind, because our species creative ability is unlike any other lifeform we know of - No way that's not of EV. Maybe not all artwork, but general examples of trends, like this is and other things.. --I'ḏ♥One15:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
??? No, I'm not referring to individual articles, I'm talking about for knowledge's sake itself, and while it wasn't Adam's intention it is still historical, does show a historic style of art and has definite potential EV to topics related to semi-recent artistic history. --I'ḏ♥One00:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you there. I was simply stating that for voting, we can't claim it has EV if it isn't used in that fashion in the encyclopedia. Cowtowner (talk) 06:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I love the composition, and the quality is nice, but I'm not really seeing what it's adding to the articles. You list its highest EV as in African Bush Elephant, but what purpose does it serve there? It strikes me as "just another shot" of the species, and not the most encyclopedic. J Milburn (talk) 17:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If that is the elephant in its natural habitat, which it appears to be, and the majority of other pictures don't seem to be, then I can see it's EV fine and I could support this then. If however this isn't it's natural habitat then I'm unsure. JFitch(talk)19:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's an editorial issue. Once it is the lead, then we can rejudge the issue, but saying "it would have EV if it was used in a way that it isn't" doesn't hold much water. J Milburn (talk) 11:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this image is of a high standard, high enough resolution, adds value to the article and helps to provide more coverage of comedians, which is lacking with regards to FPs. This is the first time I've nominated a picture.
Oppose Image quality is not that high. The shot itself looks a lot more like a 'stopped in the street' than a professional portrait. Lighting is poor. JFitch(talk)15:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In addition to the above, the lighting's not great, and the focus isn't as good as it could be. Take a look at some of our other featured portraits and you'll see the difference. Please don't be discouraged- FPC always welcomes new contributors; please stick around and feel free to nominate anything decent you come across! J Milburn (talk) 17:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 26 Aug 2010 at 23:04:05 (UTC)
Original - Tiger Swallowtail butterfly feeding on nectar
Reason
This is a striking, up-close image of a butterfly. It has high encyclopedia value because, unlike most other butterfly pictures featured, it shows the butterfly actually feeding on plant nectar. You can see many small parts of the butterfly that would be hard to see to the average person. Also, the focus, resolution, and depth of field is excellent. A picture like this is not easy to take!
Oppose per Gazhiley. It's a nice photograph, but not the "encyclopaedic style" we're looking for when illustrating species. If it were a little sharper, it might have EV for nectar feeding, although the bar is quite high (and that image failed twice). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 11:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This is the second time this kind of thing has come up in the last week or so. A good picture in terms of composition and framing may make a bad choice for featured picture for precisely the same reason. WP is an encyclopedia and not a gallery, so images here should, as their primary purpose, serve to illustrate the subject well. Those that don't, whatever their artistic merit, shouldn't be considered for FP. Perhaps there is room on Wikibooks for a collection of the best images in an artistic sense. Perhaps also the criteria for FP need to be clarified on this point.--RDBury (talk) 12:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria are already pretty clear. I don't really know about Wikibooks, but Commons is generally much more open to images like this at FPC than the English Wikipedia. J Milburn (talk) 12:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think that missing out on the swallowtails which gives the group its name kind of ruins a lot of its value for encyclopedic purposes. Good image, but not a good illustration. Adam Cuerden(talk)17:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A fine, high-quality copy of a large steel engraving. Somewhat screwed over by Wikipedia's thumbnailing system, mind ye. This is evidently due to recent changes, and will hopefully be fixed soon, as it's likely to be a problem with ALL engravings. Bug 24857 fixed.
Comment: Could you clarify what the difference between the first and the second image is? Is the second image an alt? Sorry if I'm being a little moronic here. J Milburn (talk) 22:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, pretty much because the full-size image is so very large, and because the thumbnailer isn't really optimised to deal with copperplate engravings, the full-sized image doesn't look that great as a thumbnail. However, changes to make it look good as a tiny thumbnail would destroy the appearance and value of the full size image. Hence, I created a workaround: The second image is a modified, smaller version of the big one, shrunk down, contrast upped, sharpened, and so on. This does a better job at bringing out some of the details of this very large image at the very small size it's used in articles.
Support now this thumbnail stuff has been sorted. EV very solid in both usages, so I don't mind whether this goes into art or history. J Milburn (talk) 12:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 25 Aug 2010 at 02:46:15 (UTC)
Original - Series of images demonstrating a 6 image focus bracket of A Tachinid fly. First two images illustrate typical DOF of a single image while the third image is the composite of 6 images.
Reason
I created this at the request of Howcheng after some users commented on Fir0002's spider image. It is of good quality and EV and shows the focus changing even at thumbnail size in the articles. At commons, it is a featured, quality and valued picture.
You have replaced Fir's image in the article, meaning that Fir's image is no longer actually used anywhere. There's absolutely no reason for us to have two images showing the same thing. J Milburn (talk) 11:07, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment for me it seems a little strange that we see two shots but then the final example is using six shots. What does it look like when the two shots are stacked?--Commander Keane (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On that note the stacked photo, while amazing, goes against visual perspective laws and kind of makes the fly look more as though you're standing right above it instead of looking at the front of it toward the back. --I'ḏ♥One04:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Busy composition and I find brightness and contrast to be poor (probably to avoid blowing out the atomic-level detail in the white on the “54”). P.S. Oh, and I just noticed that this is yet another Chicago-related picture. We’ve had enough of that for a while. If a meteor strike takes out the city, I’ll vote “support” on a picture of the resultant hole in the ground.(disclaimer) It would add lots of EV to Chicago Crater. Greg L (talk) 19:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both Crop isn't much better. I still think these sports photos with the player in his helmet is not a great illustration of the player, you can't see much of him. — raekyt01:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, seriously; I second that sentiment. If we are going to have a sports figure covered head to toe in armor for action on the field, let’s see him in action on the field (and a seriously dramatic action shot too, using a super-long lens). Greg L (talk) 01:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I am not all that “into” football. But even I have noticed that football players wear protective equipment while playing. But thanks for reminding me—I might have forgotten that one. ;-) The point is that if you are gonna illustrate what a football player looks like, one in street clothes with his whole face would be better than this one. This picture is like showing a Ferrari up on cinder blocks; if we’re gonna show them all dressed for action (with much of their heads covered) then let’s capture some action as a tradeoff. You know: one of those telephoto shots where they are breaking left so hard it looks like their tibia might snap under the compression. Even if I liked the basic concept of a “Ferrari-on-cinder-blocks” idea, this composition is really busy with largely in-focus, distracting elements, like a big “6” beside his head. It’s simply nowhere near what I would consider fine sports photography and I wouldn’t want to see it passed off as the best Wikipedia can offer up to the world. Oh… did I mention that this (again again) is Chicago-related?? Greg L (talk) 03:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but they do take it off too, and having a mask obscuring someone's face isn't the best illustration for their biography... — raekyt02:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What could possibly better illustrate the biography of a football player than an image of him in uniform? Not many football players are easily recognizable out of uniform. But football fans know instantly who they're looking at when they see #54 on the Bears. Makeemlighter (talk) 03:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thats certainly a valid view, and as stated above if your going to show him in uniform, best show him actually in the middle of a play, catching a ball, slamming into someone, something other then casually walking. — raekyt03:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Theres a big difference between professional sports photography and portraits and a fan in the crowd with a camera. Judging by the pictures you've nominated and just linked here I don't think you can tell the difference between the two or understand why we don't think those linked images are worthy of FP status. If your going to show a football player with a helmet, there is far better ways, or a portrait shot done by a professional is also good. But a random Flickr shot of a player from a random fan in the crowd likely is not going to measure up to professional shots. Of course no one would want to see a football player in the street, that again is a random fan with a camera photo. But a professional portrait shot ([5], [6], [7]) a reader would like to see. Just because we don't have these quality of shots available to us doesn't mean we couldn't ever get them, and it doesn't mean we need to promote poor quality fan shots either. — raekyt04:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We’re not on a different planet. We like well-done photography—at least *I* do. This photograph isn’t fine photography. It looks exactly like what it is: give an amateur a 300 mm lens on a digital camera, they go “Ooh… OOH!” when they player turns towards them, and they snap the picture even though there is another player right behind him providing a big 6 right beside his head. Ergo, this composition is way-substandard. To me, it seems more suitable for illustrating Camouflage than it is Brian Urlacher.
If you don’t agree with that critique, fine; there is ample electronic white space below to expand into. If you want to act like a cry baby and whine about how Raeky and I must inhabit another planet from you (translation: we’re half nuts) because we are utterly incapable of seeing how this is truly exemplary sports photography, again, there is much more white space below to complain about that too. You aren’t winning admirers of your nominations with such combative behavior, m‘kay?
As I stated above, an action photograph of him more along the lines of this photo of Urlacher is a better composition, is much more interesting, and actually has nice lighting (vs. this nom, which was shot on a drab, overcast day with the stadium lights turned on).
And finally, your nominations of Chicago-related photographs are waaaay disproportionately represented in the FP queue waiting for their day on the Main Page; more so than any other city on this pale blue dot. Let’s see if you can find a truly outstanding Chicago-related photograph next time around. You might find this shocking, but I’d prefer to vote “support” for new and interesting places, like Ancient Ayutthaya or the Golden Buddha in Thailand… something new. Anything other than yet another Chicago picture; Wikipedia is a place of learning and there are lots of truly interesting and stunningly beautiful places we can show our readership to give them a sense of wonder about the world. We’ve had our fill of Chicago and you’ve had more than your share of what appears on the Main Page—at least for a while here.
Perhaps what we need is a solicitation on the Main Page in the Featured Picture area soliciting I.P.s to participate in uploading and nominating photographs to consider. That move would also expand the gamut of people voting here. This place has become stale due to “regulars” who—while they bring experience to the table—also bring a lack of diversity to what appears on the Main Page. Greg L (talk) 14:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Crop 2 only - I'm not hugely thrilled by this, but there's good quality, and pictures of people doing what they do are better than generic posing. Might wish for a little better. Adam Cuerden(talk)17:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not bothered either way about whether it's an action shot or a simple photograph showing the player in uniform dressed ready for action. However if we are going to have a 'uniform' shot, then it would need to be set like a portrait-a straightforward picture of ONE individual in the appropriate clothing with a clear background. Having someone's legs wandering in,half a thigh going past, or the right side of the arm of the guy next to him dangling about is distracting and cluttering. Lemon martini (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Messier 82 (also known as NGC 3034, Cigar Galaxy or NM82) is the prototype nearby starburst galaxy about 12 million light-years away in the constellationUrsa Major. The starburst galaxy is five times as bright as the whole Milky Way and one hundred times as bright as our galaxy's center.Image 2: "This mosaic image is the sharpest wide-angle view ever obtained of M82."
Reason
Another fine picture of a galaxy. Clear EV, very eyecatching, great quality and size. Already featured on Commons, the German Wikipedia and the Turkish Wikipedia. Caption copied from article.
Any defects like that would be natural limitations on the most advanced space telescopes we currently have, keep in mind these are mega-zoomed in areas of the sky using multi-billion dollar pieces of equipment. You can't expect every one to be the same quality due to level of zoom and limitations in the hardware. Irregardless of small defects it is the most detailed image we have of this part of space and likely most detailed image we will have for decades or more. — raekyT19:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...So that's a yes then? I added a different version I found on Commons, weak support either, because neither is perfect and FPC has spoiled me yet I suppose they're important. If you guys like big pics you'll love the other version. --I'ḏ♥One20:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. I don't think we should be in the business of telling people they chose the wrong image in their article, so I have requested outside input to this FPC in a couple of places. Hopefully we can get an explanation of why the smaller image was favoured, if there is a solid reason. J Milburn (talk) 20:24, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They're both very large images within the same order of magnitude of each other, so the size isn't a major factor. The favoring probably has more to do with the coloring than anything else. However, personally, I would lean slightly to the sharper image, though less colorful because of the clearer details. —CodeHydro22:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Like Raeky, I'm a sucker for space images. As to which one, though... tough choice. Original's prettier, but #2s's sharper and shows more structure... I'd have to support #2 over #1. --LucasBrown22:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The alt is partly by ESA, ESA doesn't allow commercial use of their images, thus not compatable here, we sure that this doesn't affect this image's license? Not every image on NASA's site is public domain... Also the top image is a composite of Chandra, HST and Spitzer while the bottom is I think just visible light with some IR. — raekyT00:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not according to {{PD-Hubble}} which is used on the image, besides which it's 4 years old, they don't seem to mind and this isn't commercial use anyway, no one's making money off the image. --I'ḏ♥One00:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not the point though, theres PLENTY of images out of our millions that slip through the cracks, and yes people are making money off of our images, we want them too and they do. Theres lots of commercial adaptations of our encyclopedias. The second link on that template says it has to be released under a CC license, not public domain... So something doesn't add up there. ESA images are not public domain, most require a non-commercial CC license, seems it's a compromise ESA is making here with NASA to use a less restrictive CC license. I'm not entirely convinced the NASA/ESA collaborative images are entirely freely licensed. But if no one else has an issue with the license... Be sure to take these images into account in what they're showing they're not identical, since they're composed of different wavelengths of energy, the above has a lot of x-ray where the bottom has no x-ray. — raekyT00:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ESA's name is on this somehow, but this was taken by the Hubble telescope, meaning NASA took it, they provide credits, as did the uploader on Commons, and it doesn't specify copyright ownership on the Hubble page, it also says specifically that satellite imagery is free for everyone to use on a Hubble+ESA website (scroll down); If anything I'm guessing ESA might've commissioned it, but that wouldn't be the same as transferring rights. So some guy takes this image and sells it, it's our responsibility? Did we tell him or anybody they could do that? --I'ḏ♥One01:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that like say I own a camera, you want to use it, you pay me to use it, who owns the copyright? If ESA commissioned/paid for time to use the Hubble, even though Hubble is owned by the US Government and NASA, ESA would hold the copyright under that scenario. So if anything I think the template is wrong claiming it's public domain, and should be released under the CC license ESA's site says... This isn't a "so what" case, we unfortunately have to delete tons of ESA and other space agencies pictures all the time, like Japan's. Since it looks like this ESA/Hubble group is releasing the images under a compatible license we don't have to delete it, I just want to make sure we have it under the RIGHT license and are not labeling something public domain when it isn't. And yes, if we label an image public domain and it's not, we could potentially be responsible if someone else uses the image commercially. Many people bulk use our database and data without individually checking all of the thousands of images. It's OUR responsibility to make sure we have images that can legally be used commercially and that they're attributed right and under the right license. — raekyT01:23, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty clear on the source website's copyright page that the image is in the public domain, as it is not clearly listed otherwise. I would guess that if it wasn't, it wouldn't even be stuck on the website to download at horrendously large resolution. J Milburn (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But at http://www.spacetelescope.org they say it's released under a CC license, which is correct? Is ESA the copyright holder or NASA? If ESA contracted/paid to use the telescope then they should be the copyright holder right? — raekyT12:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible that they merely request the images, then NASA makes them. I think a quick email to ASA would be the best option here. J Milburn (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, it would seem that the image is free, but we certainly need to ensure we have the correct licensing. Another possibility is that all images are CC, while those affiliated with NASA are automatically put in the public domain. I'm still leaning towards this being PD, but I can't provide any real evidence. I think we're going to need to either contact someone or open a discussion somewhere. J Milburn (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that they're most likely freely licensed for our use here, and I too think we should have the license correct, thats why I brought it up. ;-) — raekyT13:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Images 1 and 2 do not show the same thing. Image 2 is a composite of images taken with HST through filters in the visible light range, shows ordinary stars in the blue disk and, hm, gas emission in the red filaments, and is fairly close to what we could see with our eyes. Image 1 is a composite of images taken with HST in the visible, Spitzer in the infrared (showing dust emission) and Chandra in X-rays (showing in that case mostly synchrotron emission from fast electrons). The X-ray emission is from the blue parts which show the banding - X-ray astronomy is photon starved, which means that only comparatively few colour levels can be reconstructed). The information content in the two images is different and they cannot be directly compared. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm assuming that's why the first image was used in the article lead, then. If the two images show different things, perhaps it would be best if the second image was withdrawn from this nomination and renominated if it finds a use in its own right. J Milburn (talk) 16:55, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wrongfilter makes some good points. It's the same subject, presumably they were taken not long between each other considering they were released on the same date. The alternate is more realistic, larger and has better digital quality than the current lead image; It should actually be moved to the infobox of the article and the current one should be moved to the "structure" section since that's really the only usage for taking a photo of something like this in X-ray, with an explanatory caption for the false-coloring - which are pretty, but flawed and, again, unrealistic and artificial. I'm betting the alternate as far as the article, like with this nomination, was simply overlooked. The article has been edited less than 50 times in 2 years, and you can't assume the article was created or is monitored by some high-ranking expert in astronomy, just ordinary people with a hobby in astronomy. --I'ḏ♥One07:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you feel the second would make a stronger lead, switch it. It is outside of FPC's remit to decide that one image is more appropriate than another and then come storming into an article to switch it. It would be up to you to make the switch/discuss the switch in the appropriate venue. J Milburn (talk) 11:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well ok, I did and tried to give them both their due EV and largely reworded WrongFilter's description to hopefully be a bit easier to grasp. --I'ḏ♥One15:15, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to get that info out above but apparently not as well as Wrongfilter. The second image is great in it's own right, but it's not the same thing as the first. Might be the same subject but without the IR and X-ray data it's not the same image. — raekyT19:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This has ended up a rather horrific nom because of the fact we've ended up with alts showing two different things. I suppose I prefer the alt, as that has ended up the lead image, but I do not feel we should now go and replace all the other usages. J Milburn (talk) 23:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Orig I agree. Adding other versions or entirely different pictures is a prescription for confusion and getting nothing done around here. When I saw an entirely different picture slapped up here (rather than in an entirely different nomination), it was clear this nomination was at great risk for becoming a thorough cluster-pooch. My vote was for the original. Greg L (talk) 17:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning toward the alt, because it shows what the galaxy actually looks like. The infrared and X-ray are scientifically useful and make it look nicer, but they're not really real, the blue and other colors are just there to aid our human eyes and brains in seeing what the telescopes could see, plus it's FPC tradition to favor larger and sharper stuff. --I'ḏ♥One16:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These pictures show different things- trying to choose between them is a little odd. The fact the circumstances of the article changed mid-nomination also complicates things. I'm close to saying bugger this nomination, we can let one or both have their own nominations... Am I still able to withdraw? Perhaps that would be the least ambiguous option... J Milburn (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I suppose I advise this is closed as "no consensus- clusterfuck" and someone can nominate one or both again in a month... Let this stand as a lesson as to why we don't nominate two different pictures in the same fricking nomination. J Milburn (talk) 08:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the numbers so far while you decide if anything should be promoted or not or just withdraw: ::7.5::(hover) supports including :1: support specifically for the alt, 0 opposes, :6: statements or votes preferring the alt including :1: user who didn't do a boldface vote, :1: preference for the original. --I'ḏ♥One05:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion Since they are "different" can we just promote both of them and be done with this nomination? We can call one "M86 in true color" and the other "M86 in X-ray and infrared". --I'ḏ♥One22:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a nice idea, but, because of the confusion of the nomination, it could hardly be said to be the conclusion we have reached. Again, I think this should be closed with neither promoted, and they can be nominated again later. J Milburn (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think since both have support votes and no opposes i think promoting them as a set would work. But it looks like the first image has more votes then the alt. Spongie555 (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to tell you guys that the first image just was promoted to valued picture. I just wanted to say since this is being nominated for FP and if it makes it to FP then it cancels out the VP. Spongie555 (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although at least one of these could probably be promoted, the result of this nomination is entirely unclear. Since the original nominator, J Milburn, has said a few times that this should just be closed without promoting anything, that's what I'm doing. One or both of these images can be re-nominated at any time, even immediately if someone wants to. Please make a separate nomination for each image, though, since this all came about due to another image being added. This could also be nominated as a set, if desired. This nomination was never presented as a set, so it didn't make sense to promote it as one. Makeemlighter (talk) 06:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (original) or neutral, maybe I can be convinced for WS.. Oddly enough I saw this recently also and thought about nominating it, but decided not to because I thought the composition was odd. Any version smaller than the original looks kind of cartoonish and the background colors are strange how it goes, seemingly to my eye, unnaturally from dark blue to even darker blue without looking deeper down... --I'ḏ♥One13:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a wonderfully composed image, the dark blue most likely is entirely natural, probably extremely clear water combined with depth and/or reduced daylight. It's a striking image and I can't see how you see it composed wrong? — raekyt13:55, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just look at how weird the preview is, it looks more like a color pencil or chalk drawing than a photograph, and unless this was taken in particularly deep water (though according to this these creatures live only 15 meters/50 feet down, whereas according to this and this the ocean is lit by the Sun up to almost 700 feet/214 meters), I can't see any reason why the background should be so much darker than the foreground, and it certainly doesn't explain why the light source, which seems to be coming from an angle to the right of the camera, wouldn't shine on the background; I'm wondering if this was majorly digitally altered. Even though I don't like this photo it is definitely educational and good in some ways, but I don't think it's feature-worthy. --I'ḏ♥One18:24, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Light levels do vary through the day, if you never noticed. In extremely clear water the water color is very blue. 50 feet is pretty deep, deep enough to color everything blue. this image was taken 50 feet deep, as by it's caption. The link you gave about the depth these creatures live in has a black background picture, according to your logic thats not natural. The sun doesn't just go from off to on like a light switch. And it's pretty obvious that a strobe was used to make this photograph. I don't see where your talking about the light source being in the background. Do you have any expereince in diving and undersea photography? Do you have much experience in photography in general? — raekyt18:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Deep sea photography? Can't say I do, if I had the money and time to do it and buy/rent/research the equipment necessary I wouldn't be sitting at my computer arguing about a strangely-lit picture of a bunch of boneless creatures, but this isn't about me. I know the Sun doesn't switch off, it gets dimmer. This was only one meter, so does that mean ALL underwater photos should be allowed to be dark? These were as much as 8 meters, this is 50 feet, this from here says it's about 50 feet. It seems to me that your link, my first from this reply and the nominated pic all simply are poorly lit, which wouldn't be allowed for an above-ground photo, I'm gonna need stronger convincing that this really is up to par to vote for feature. --I'ḏ♥One19:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you oppose flash photography and only support naturally light subjects? At 50 feet of water, or even in most cases much shallower depths, you HAVE to have a flash to accurately render color. As we discussed in other recent underwater noms that water filters out the reds very quickly and it doesn't take much depth in water until you only have blue light. Because of that colors can only be rendered accurately if you have underwater lighting. I don't quite understand your logic, either your willfully ignoring that fact, or don't understand that. — raekyt01:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The subject is well-lit, is it not? The lighting on the background, providing it is neither distracting nor misleading, shouldn't really be an issue, so far as I can see. J Milburn (talk) 19:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support A bit too dark and too saturated (implausible saturation based on intuition and a totality of visual clues), but it is very eye-catching and interesting. Greg L (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This comment is not intended to influence the voting process for this (my) image but to provide more information regarding the use of light in underwater photography. It is true that the deeper you go, less sunlight makes it through the water column. Also, as depth increases, you lose more of the red end of the spectrum leaving only blues and greens at depth. Artificial light, through the use of strobes, will allow the full spectrum of light on the subject. As for the color of the background, this is not so much a function of depth as it is of shutter speed and aperture. With a fast shutter speed and a small aperture, you can have a black background and vibrant colors in the foreground at very shallow depth. This is a good technique for framing a subject using the black or dark blue “negative space” to highlight a subject. Another method of altering the background color is to vary the angle of the shot. If you put the subject between you and the surface, the blue background will be a lighter blue and some photographers choose to have the sun in the background in what is called a “sunball” shot. If you position yourself so the subject is between you and the depths, the resulting background will be dark to black. In this shot the colonial anemones where somewhere in between where the top of the background is lighter than the bottom. This gradient does not affect the subject as it is being lit relatively evenly by the strobes. I hope this helps in evaluating future underwater images. Keep an eye on the f-stop and shutter speeds in the photo’s exif information to confirm the above phenomena. Thanks. NickNhobgood (talk) 18:23, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the primer on underwater photography, Nhobgood. I voted “support” for this one. Note that my support reasoning cited my opinion that—subjectively—this image appears to have over-saturated colors. Is that the case here? Or does this type of sea anemone really have such a deeply saturated, brownish coloration? Greg L (talk) 02:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Greg L, the richness of the color of the anemone bases in this image is due to several factors. I do like to shoot using the "vivid" setting in the Olympus which does give richer colors but you will notice that in many macro underwater photography shots, marine life is naturally characterized by very rich colors especially when small apertures are used with additional lighting from the use of strobes. Finally, many anemones have bases with deep rich colors, especially reds and oranges, as is the case with this one.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhobgood (talk • contribs) 04:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I suspected a “vivid” setting; my brother does that on all his photos. Normally I vote “oppose” for that until the color is corrected. But this is such an eye-catching photo, I voted support. Given that his is, however, an *encyclopedia*, might you be inclined to provide an alternative version here with the color tweaked to match—as best as you can recall from personal, first-hand experience—what it looks like in reality? That would likely reverse the above two “oppose” votes and get this awarded FP status. Greg L (talk) 15:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Greg L, your suggestion is compelling and may take us into the metaphysical when trying to define "what it looks like in reality ? " This begs the question as to whether any flash photography should be used at all as we are adding artificial light to what normally would be another reality under sunlight. The difference is even more pronounced underwater where we are bringing light to things that have never been seen as "red" due to their position in the water column. I have uploaded an image from my dive course to better illustrate this issue.These two images are of the same soft coral. The top image is lit with ambient or natural light. The bottom image was taken with artificial light from the camera's flash. As sunlight penetrates the water column the red end of the spectrum (reds, oranges and yellows) are lost leaving only blues and greens. Therefore, the colors we see in underwater photography using artificial light are evident only at the precise time the strobes go off and/or when lit up with an underwater light. So, the only recollection I have of the subject under artificial light is the playback image on the back of the camera after taking the shot. I will go back to the original images and see what they looked like and try and "correct" the image for the additional saturation from the "vivid" setting but given the above challenges regarding the "reality" of color underwater, some subjectivity will be inevitable. Clear as mud ? Nhobgood (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded a slightly less saturated version of the image (right). This compensates for some of the saturation from the "vivid" setting on the camera. It must also be noted that some of the white balance sliders on image processing software will saturate the dark blues. (The use of white balance adjustments also brings us back to the question of what is "natural" with the primarily blue-green tints at depth.) As for the gradient from light to dark, from top to bottom, you see in the background it is due to both the position the image was taken in the water column as described above, and after looking at the images taken that day, the darker part at the bottom is due to the reef in the lower background. One must also be aware that much of the variation in light in an image, especially in underwater photography is due to aperture and shutter speed and not depth. At the same depth, a background can be light blue with larger aperture/slower shutter speed or dark blue to black if taken with small aperture/very fast shutter speeds. This imagewas taken at a very shallow depth but with a very fast shutter speed of 1/1,000th of a second. The same phenomenon can be seen when taking pictures of a blue sky - light blue to white with open aperture and slow shutter and dark blue with smaller aperture and fast shutter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhobgood (talk • contribs) 18:02, 20 August 2010
This is evidenced by the deeper you go in the ocean the more the creatures are red. MANY of the creatures that inhabit the mesopelagic zone are red, but in their natural light, what very little that reaches those depths they're quite black. Since no red light reaches those depths evolutionary advantage between being black or red is minimal since the absence of red light makes red appear black. So it becomes a question of what is natural for these creatures? Since the mesopelagic depths is VERY low light, to photograph anything at those depths you have to use artificial light, which obviously isn't a light spectrum these creatures have ever experienced and isn't natural for them. But to show them in their natural light isn't good either since either they'd be all black, or have very few detail, and would make poor photographs. Even in shallower waters like the soft coral Nick linked too above, in it's natural light it's very monotone, the reds are blacks and the rest is blues. A diver will see it as the blue and black version and not see the hidden colors, the reds and such, the flash camera reveals that hidden world. I know from a scientific standpoint these deeper water creatures are show in artificial light for identification purposes, so from a educational and science stance, strobes are a must. As for the issue of using "vivid" setting on the camera, my experience with cameras is those settings generally don't punch the saturation to drastic levels, they obviously punch it up some, but usually not by a ton. Most professional photographers post-process their shots by sharping and punching up saturation anyway, so seeing shots in say National Geographic those have been tweaked too. Camera's generally don't capture colors accurately and digital sensors usually are less saturated then you want. I personally don't have a problem with the vivid setting on his pictures, I think they're quite excellent, definitely some of the best underwater photography we have on Wikipedia by far. — raekyt19:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support None of the issues that have been raised above strike me as compelling and, though I have no experience in the field, they seem to have been explained away. Cowtowner (talk) 03:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For the relatively shallow depth this was taken at in comparison to the possible 7 diagonal miles of ocean there are, this was 1) Just taken at the wrong time of day or had the Sun obstructed by something 2) Digitally altered when photographed so that it's not realistic anymore 3) Poorly lit. It's cool that Nick went scuba diving and provided us with an image of this subject and I don't know what his schedule was when when he went diving or if the only one of these was maybe behind a big sea cliff, but this one I think blew or simply didn't have a lot of chances to be much higher quality and I'm afraid I just don't find it eye-catching or believable. I think this particular image is more for a slideshow reel to show family than it is of scientific value or spectacular undersea photo quality. Most of the photos on Nick's page are freaking amazing, this is not one of them. --I'ḏ♥One14:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Oh well… let my above “support” vote be considered to apply especially to the less-saturated one, which still looks stunning to me. I’ve only dived in muddy water where you could only see 10 to 20 feet. I can only imagine being in clear waters and being able to see something like this. Amazing. Greg L (talk) 05:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'm with you, the less saturated one looks slightly more realistic. I don't believe that even at night water can ever look as perfectly evening sky blue as in the original unless maybe you're in a pool, a tank or a urinal with one of those tablets. --I'ḏ♥One06:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dear One, constructive criticism much appreciated. Please do not dismiss blue backgrounds in underwater photography as many photos will have such backgrounds. I offer a recent photo from an accomplished underwater photographer to provide another example here. If the diver had gone to macro and taken a photo of the lower part of the sea fan with a greater downward angle, the background would have shown as a dark evening sky or urinal tablet blue. ;-) It is good to be suspicious of modifications given the capabilities of software but do not underestimate the range and variety of colors nature has to offer underwater. Thanks. Nick Nhobgood (talk) 18:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That example is what I would expect from a diving photo (the fan looks a bit overly lit but it's nice), I know I'm looking through water and that the field of vision should be very shallow unless you look toward sunlight. In the original it looks like a open night sky in a city with a lot of light pollution obscuring the stars with no clouds and unlimited visibility - which is impossible underwater under any condition. I've never taken photos underwater, but I love the beach. =) Weak support edit. --I'ḏ♥One05:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With fewer clipped shadows and less blown saturation (when viewed as HSV), prefer alt. It looks like it was redone from RAW, which is how things should be. Good job. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Makeemlighter, could you please close this? Been here a while. ::7.5::(hover) total supports, :2: opposes (both specifically at the original), 3 statements/votes out of the 7 votes for the edit including :1: half vote, :1: preference for the original. --I'ḏ♥One04:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The photographer, Nhobgood, who took this shot stated above (18:02, 20 August 2010 post) as follows: I have uploaded a slightly less saturated version of the image (right). This compensates for some of the saturation from the "vivid" setting on the camera. That upload is the un-captioned alt edit, above. Regardless of which image might strike each of us here as most stunning, an encyclopedia can not misrepresent the coloration of a sea anenome. Since the “vivid” setting on cameras produce colors that are richer and more saturated than actual, I think it is abundantly clear which of the two above images has the most EV. Clearly, the edit, with its more true-to-life color saturation, is still a very stunning image (take a look at its enlargement). Wikipedia is the beneficiary of a talented underwater photographer who donated it to the project; let’s ensure one of these gets promoted. Greg L (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not necessarily true. In my experience digital cameras often produce images that are blander than reality; a vivid setting can therefore also offer a more accurate rendering of the subject. Cowtowner (talk) 22:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As has been noted before, it is somewhat of a myth to assume that some colours are "real" while other, similar colours are not. It depends under what circumstances you observe the subject. J Milburn (talk) 22:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Struck my earlier “support” vote. Lack of EV as a result of inappropriately depicting the sea anenome with coloration not found in nature. What is “noted here”, J Milburn, is sometimes not true and often reflects the opinion of amateurs who are anxious to espouse on science but have no expertise or formal training in the subject of how the eye responds and adapts to images and how light transmits through water. This is one of the shortcomings of Wikipedia, where a 14-year-old kid can revert the writings of someone with a Ph.D. in the subject (which drives away many real experts on subjects). I’m a certified scuba diver and know how things look under water. Over-saturated colors is an ongoing problem here on FPC because of the ease with which volunteer contributors can set their cameras to “vivid” saturation and the ease of low-cost (or free) photo editing software. The first image, above, appears implausibly saturated. The edit is not much improved. A more important issue is this image of the same thing was taken by a commercial firm DeapSeaImages.com that has genuine expertise in this subject and makes a living at it. Researching existing images from the pros is a step I should have taken before voting the first time and mentioned this issue of wildly implausible saturation. This image fails due to lack of EV due to misrepresenting the coloration of the subject where there is authoritative, objective evidence to the contrary. Greg L (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Greg L - I appreciate your comment and would like to offer the following - these anemones interested me specifically for the variation in color that their bases showed as I had not seen any like that in over 600 dives off the Northern Coast of East Timor. Although not common, some of the other ones found were more like the one you mention in your comment above such asthis group, this group, this individual, this individual, and this group. All these images were taken using the same Olympus vivid setting. I was also surprised to see the all white version of this colonial anemone, further demonstrating the great variation. I believe that specimens of a rare color should not be dismissed because the majority of other examples are of another color. Finally, I cannot repeat enough that the same specimen can be taken using two different shutter speeds and apertures and yield very different results. The faster the shutter speed and smaller the aperture the richer the colors in the captured image. The difference is much more pronounced in underwater photography. Nhobgood (talk) 18:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This search on “Gorgonian wrapper” at DeapSeaImages.com, which is this, very specific species of sea anenome, demonstrates what they typically look like. The intense and clearly enhanced colors reflecting off the white tentacles here shows that this image has had its color punched up beyond all comprehension. Even if the true situation was that this image is a specimen of a rare color, as you say, the Nemanthus annamensis article (which is just a stub to make way for your picture) should state somewhere that the photo is of an example with “rare color” and is not typical nor representative of the species in general. That would clue other would-be contributors to offer up and replace the existing image with one that is more typical if the species because, as you wrote: because the majority of other examples are of another color.Greg L (talk) 19:25, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Greg L. I am sorry you see it that way and that with only one other example you find it easy to conclude that this image was altered in the manner you describe. The best thing about Wikipedia is that it is open and everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I was offering was the experience of hundreds of hours of underwater photography to explain that this is pretty close to what these anemones look like when taken under artificial light. It is for each individual to decide whether they think so or not. In the meantime, here is a picture of a similar colony taken in the Red Sea of similar color variation. I guess the coloration is not as rare as I first thought. Frankly, I am glad that reviewers on Wikipedia are so critical of the content. This can only assure higher quality images and articles for the Encyclopedia, just don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Thanks Nhobgood (talk) 21:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know why you would write only one other example; the provided link has four images—all taken by an professional outfit that sells marine imagery. Flickr pictures aren’t what one would call an auditable RS. Greg L (talk) 02:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Papa Lima Wiskey, yes there are many examples of color differentiation between individuals of the same species, like us for example, but in this case Greg L has reason to doubt the color. I must recommend that this FP entry be de-listed. Although I do not agree with the manner in which Greg L rather crassly states that the image must have been grossly altered, after more research, there is very good reason to believe that these are colonial anemones of a different genus -Amphianthus An example with similar color and form from the Philippines can be seen here. I also found a similar one in an Indonesian field manual. I apologize for erroneously identifying the animals. I will change the information on both images above and make a genus page for this image in order to correctly represent it on Wikipedia.Nhobgood (talk) 23:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I think, with that, this nom has been confusing enough. With such a drastic change at this stage in the game, we would have to discuss the entire issue anew. I feel this should be closed as not promoted- if I can do this, I would like to withdraw my nomination. J Milburn (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Seriously?! Glare/over exposure on the stage, blur on the crowd, tilt on the right, a lot of the stage structure cut off... Very poor picture, surely you could see that Tony? Gazhiley (talk) 09:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose The security woman to the left of the stage made me smile! She's obviously enjoying it! But seriously strong oppose for all reasons already stated. JFitch(talk)09:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose To me there's just way too much going on, it's a bit of a mass of colours and from thumbnail view it's really not clear at all. The quality also isn't up to what I'd expect. I understand it's underwater but I sill feel we could do much better. JFitch(talk)09:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Sorry,but I had to look for a good 10 seconds before working out which bit of the photograph was actually supposed to be the subject. Lemon martini (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Native American Sitting Bull and showman Buffalo Bill, in Montreal, circa 1885. Sitting Bull briefly performed in his travelling vaudeville Wild West Shows during the late 19th and early 20th century.Alternate - Went back to the LoC file and did a restorationAlt 2 As above, but sharpened.Not for voting (a bit late for that) Proof of the idea that facial detail is possibly for the chief.
Reason
A high resolution, but most importantly striking portrait of two historical figures.
Oppose I'm going to have to oppose here, it needs graphic work, I think the contrast is too harsh and that combined with the fairly low quality from LOC... — raekyt14:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right. New version uploading. I used the LOC copy because, frankly, the bigger one is so horribly JPEG artefacted that it's not actually any better. Adam Cuerden(talk)12:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've taken the liberty of redoing your edit: The faces had had some selective sharpening applied already, and when I checked, they looked over-sharpened to me. That, unfortunately, is very easy to do: In the Revelations image of a couple months ago, I had to completely redo some parts after accidentally over-sharpening early on. (there were some parts where I couldn't get the image to lay flat, and thus were slightly blurry at full res. I was going through sharpening those, then sharpened the whole thing - then found that part of it had gotten horribly oversharpened, and had to paste in that bit and start over. Adam Cuerden(talk)14:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yes, if you make a dark-skinned Indian look white, his face is clearer, but that doesn't mean it's right. That's an artefact of the extremely high contrast settings. Adam Cuerden(talk)18:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per Adam, I find the artifact deserving (users know that Indians aren't white?). Camera technology was lacking back then. I find Sitting Bull's facial features, liked hooked nose, useful to the picture. Gut Monk (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit that the alts are a bit dark; however, the original, besides having terrible technical quality, seems over-edited to highlight foreground objects using masks. That's probably not called for. Maybe we need to try again. I don't know if Adam has uploaded a lossless version of the restoration...? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just experimented a bit. Facial detail is definitely possible, but it would mean that Buffalo Bill's jacket (and probably hat) would have to be remain a little lighter in colour. The bonus is that the decorations on Sitting Bull come alive. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 13:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That seems reasonable to me, although it might need a bit more consensus than just the two of us - perhaps it would be a reason for suspending, even at this late stage? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That seems a fair call. Do you have something that's nearly ready? Oh, and could you just reply to my question above that starts with, "Do any..."? Thanks. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would support the "not for voting" version myself. I'm tweaked it in slightly in sharpness, if that's okay. I guess I'm happy to have caused so much collaboration and desire for improvement. Sir Richardson (talk) 19:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fine to me. I only put the NFV sign up because I thought it would be a little late in the nom, and I didn't spend that much time on it. It's still based on Adam's work btw, I just did a curves change and probably haven't filled in the retouch template yet. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PLW or Adam: if you come up with a "final" version, we can either re-open this for something like 5 days or we can contact all the voters to ask for a preference among all the versions. Makeemlighter (talk) 00:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 22 Aug 2010 at 10:46:33 (UTC)
Original - The Australian blenny are small marine blennioid fish of the genus Ecsenius. They are reddish-brown with a white ventral side, and inhabit the shallow marine waters of the tropics. They are often found along the Great Barrier Reef and Coral Sea of Australia.
Reason
Great composition, good quality for an underwater shot, very pretty. Identified to species level with clear EV in the species article, and solid EV in a few others. Already featured on Commons. Caption modified from the article
Maybe it's just me, but it took me a while to actually locate the fish in this shot. As photographic composition I can see why you'd want to frame it as it is, but the picture puts just as much emphasis on the coral as on the fish, which lowers the EV a bit. --RDBury (talk) 13:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose The right creation is hard to see the shape as the head blends into the body - the paper used just isn't plain enough to stand out... Shame though as the EV is high and the left creation is clear... Gazhiley (talk) 12:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To above: I can make it out, sorry if you can't, I'm not sure if any digital tinkering could fix that part though.. =\ --I'ḏ♥One00:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not so much that we CAN'T make it out - it's just that you have to blow it up to full size and look carefully to see it - it's not immediately obvious as it blends too much to itself... I lighter colour paper would be better for the right crane... Gazhiley (talk) 09:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Not bad, but I think this is the kind of subject for which we could imagine/expect a real "WOW" picture- this one's just a little bit "meh" for me. J Milburn (talk) 10:05, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If you tried to find a featured picture of "water," you would have a difficult time. (How are these cranes "special.") Gut Monk (talk) 01:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominations in this category are older than nine days and are soon to be closed. New votes will no longer be accepted.
Older nominations requiring additional input from users
These nominations have been moved here because consensus is impossible to determine without additional input from those who participated in the discussion. Usually this is because there was more than one edit of the image available, and no clear preference for one of them was determined. If you voted on these images previously, please update your vote to specify which edit(s) you are supporting.
Original - Xanthoria elegans, commonly known as the elegant sunburst lichen, is seen here growing on exposed sandstone. It is used in the rock face-dating method known as lichenometry.Edit 1 Minimum plausible white balance correction (bringing back the blues).Edit 2 As above, with slight exposure lift.
Reason
Attractive picture of a interesting lichen; added scale helps EV. Meets size requirements.
Support. There are prettier lichens, but the quality is there, and the EV is clear. If promoted, this will be our first lichen FP :) J Milburn (talk) 11:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with the original or edit 1, both seem to be within the normal color variation of this species, and might represent the subject viewed with different lighting. Edit 2 may be a tad too bright (although viewed on a sunny day, who knows?). Sasata (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
High quality shot of a notable individual shown in his natural environment. Compelling, good lighting and a good composition. A little noisy, but the large size makes up for that. Caption nabbed from the article, currently also an FP candidate on Commons.
Colour noise does rather bother me, and is so easily avoidably as per previous comments. So my support goes to the edit (even if I'm the person who moved the sliders). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Place the following text at the bottom of the WP:FPC/subpage:
{{FPCresult|Not promoted| }} --~~~~
Do NOT put any other information inside the FPCresult template. It should be copied and pasted exactly.
If the nominator is new to FPC, consider placing {{subst:NotpromotedFPC|Image name}} on their talk page. To avoid overuse, do not use the template when in doubt.
When promoted, perform the following:
Place the following text at the bottom of the WP:FPC/subpage:
{{FPCresult|Promoted|File:FILENAME.JPG}} --~~~~
Replace FILENAME.JPG with the name of the file that was promoted. It should show up as:
Promoted File:FILENAME.JPG
Do NOT put any other information inside the FPCresult template. It should be copied and pasted exactly.
The caption for a Wikipedian created image should read "Description at Article, by Creator". For a non-Wikipedian, it should be similar, but if the creator does not have an article, use an external link if appropriate. For images with substantial editing by one or more Wikipedians, but created by someone else, use "Description at Article, by Creator (edited by Editor)" (all editors involved should be clear from the nomination). Additionally, the description is optional - if it's essentially the same as the article title, then just use "Article, by Creator". Numerous examples can be found on the various Featured Pictures subpages.
Add the image to the appropriate section of Wikipedia:Featured pictures - newest on left and remove the oldest from the right so that there are always three in each section.
Add the Featured Picture tag and star to the image page using {{Featured picture|page_name}} (replace page_name with the nomination page name, i.e., the page_name from Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/page_name). To add this template you most likely will have to click the "create" button on the upper right if the "edit" button is not present, generally if the image originates from Commons.
If an edited or alternative version of the originally nominated image is promoted, make sure that all articles contain the Featured Picture version, as opposed to the original.
Notify the nominator or co-nominators by placing {{subst:PromotedFPC|File:file_name.xxx}} on each nominator's talk page. For example: {{subst:PromotedFPC|File:Blue morpho butterfly.jpg}}.
If the image was created by a Wikipedian, place {{subst:UploadedFP|File:file_name.xxx}} on the creator's talk page. For example: {{subst:UploadedFP|File:Blue morpho butterfly.jpg}}.
Then perform the following, regardless of the outcome:
Move the nomination entry to the top of the "Recently closed nominations" section. It will remain there for three days after closing so others can review the nomination. This is done by simply moving the line {{Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Page name}} to the top of the section.
Add the nomination entry to the bottom of the August archive. This is done by simply adding the line {{Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Page name}} from this page to the bottom of the archive.
Here you can nominate featured pictures you feel no longer live up to featured picture standards. You may also request a featured picture be replaced with a superior image. Please leave a note on the talk page of the original FPC nominator (and creator/uploader, if appropriate) to let them know the delisting is being debated. The user may be able to address the issues and avoid the delisting of the picture.
For delisting, if an image is listed here for fourteen days with five or more reviewers supporting a delist or replace, and the consensus is in its favor, it will be delisted from Wikipedia:Featured pictures. Consensus is generally regarded to be a two-third majority in support, including the nominator. However, images are sometimes delisted despite having fewer than five in support of their removal, and there is currently no consensus on how best to handle delist closures. Note that anonymous votes are generally disregarded, as are opinions of sockpuppets. If necessary, decisions about close candidacies will be made on a case-by-case basis.
Note that delisting an image does not equal deleting it. Delisting from Featured pictures in no way affects the image's status in its article/s.
Use the tool below to nominate for delisting.
Please use Keep, Delist, or Delist and Replace to summarise your opinion.
Quite simply, it's clearly and obviously wrong: This is the original image. Note its primary colour is yellow. The paper is very nearly white, and these images are always placed upon a white surface, which can be seen, and is, indeed, white. Those two circumstances do not allow for radical recolouring. However, the restoration has radically recoloured it, changing the yellow to blue. I don't see how that can possibly be justified.
Comment Um, forgive me for being naive, but why exactly is this a problem? Changing the color balance in Photoshop isn't really radically recoloring. Yellow and blue are opposites in color balance. Also, explain to my why this "radical" restoration detracts from the image, degrades its quality, or makes it an unsuitable illustration of the subject?--AutoGyro (talk) 00:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's simply inaccurate: Simpson illustrations tend to use a fair amount of yellow; when that yellow gets replaced with blue, they are no longer what the artist intended. To give a real-life example, it's like having a picture of the Sahara desert with blue sand. The colour balance has no resemblance to reality. Adam Cuerden(talk)00:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But the EV of that image is not because that it's a Simpson illustration, but because a depiction of a specific event, and a rather good one at that. If the argument was that the image was used to show specifically how these types of illustrations are made, then I would understand. --AutoGyro (talk) 06:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist and replace That the the illustration doesn't show the proper colours is of course a problem. It is misleading, and I would even call it original research. I think the Sahara example illustrates this clearly. P. S. Burton (talk)17:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I stick with my delist vote, and may support a replace but I feel that the replacement needs cropping tighter, there is really no need for the massive amount of white border. The left, right and top sides can be cropped without losing any of the text from the bottom. JFitch(talk)17:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At full res the border is even more distracting. It's not unbalanced as the crop would be even still leaving it centre of the canvas horizontally. JFitch(talk)07:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you mean by "unbalanced", since it was, after all, printed with a border. But I'll hazard a guess as I'm about to leave for 2 days. The image's borders, like most Victorian images aren't perfectly straight. While this one is nearer true than most, the top border noticeably tilts upwards, for instance. Adam Cuerden(talk)20:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It would fit into the section currently titled "Other" which deals largely with his legacy. A caption noting his fame resulted in his being used in recruitment campaigns would be encyclopedic there. Cowtowner (talk) 04:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, I'm not wild about it. Perhaps if we had some sourced discussion of his appearance on posters, but the fact that the LOC wasn't even sure would suggest this isn't the most important or famous poster... J Milburn (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of the posters we have featured aren't the most important or famous; looking through some of them and their uses, it appears that this arrangement would meet the precedent for poster EV. At the same time, many of them may be candidates for delisting if we decide that this image doesn't live up to our criteria. Cowtowner (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a poster that happens to feature a certain person. That doesn't mean it automatically has EV in the article about that person, and I'm not really seeing any reason to believe it does otherwise. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't see why we should have a lower precedent for images that have already been promoted than for images not yet promoted- it wouldn't pass today with that as a claim of encyclopedic value. J Milburn (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know you're not a dick ;-) (I've always though we've had a pretty good working relationship on here), I'm just looking through possibilities and interpreting the criteria and precedents. Personally, in that capacity I think the image would have been promoted given the apparently low EV standards for posters. That said the fact that this was misidentified makes it a very ambiguous case. Cowtowner (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[Unindent] Let's review. I'm just going to look at WWI and WWII, since I don't think it's surprising or notable that, say, a lot of theatrical shows are illustrated with a poster for that show.
WWI:
All the featured posters illustrate one or more articles in a strong way:
Now, compare Earl Roberts. Unlike the other articles here, our article on the man is packed with images, and has no text at all about anything related to propaganda involving him. And I hardly think it's worth cutting out a FP-level copy of a John Singer Sergeant painting to make room for this. Adam Cuerden(talk)00:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Adam. Further, there shouldn't be a lower EV requirement for posters- if it seems there is, it's possible some posters were promoted when they should not have been. J Milburn (talk) 18:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was what I was getting at, though apparently not too clearly: That there seems to be a double standard for poster EV and that we may have been a little lax in those promotions. Again, just exploring options and it's looking like we're moving towards a consensus to delist. Cowtowner (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I brought this to Durova's attention at the end of July. I suppose she's been too busy to do anything about it. I suppose it could replace the John Singer Sargent portrait, but I'd prefer it to have more context. howcheng {chat}18:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 1 Sep 2010 at 20:10:03 (UTC)
A satellite composite image of North America.
Reason
Compared to our images of other continent and land masses, this one doesn't meet the resolution requirements by a fairly long shot. While I think it is encyclopedic, we need to produce a new image from the NASA source; I'm afraid I don't really know how to do that.
Whyso? If the image is not good enough, it's not good enough. We don't feature substandard images until something better comes along. J Milburn (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'll comment, seeing as I'm the original nominator. Simply because this is the best satellite image of North America we have. It meets all criteria, including in resolution, while granted that it isn't as high as the other continent images. Keep it until NASA release a higher resolution version. It would feel awkward for all the other continents to be featured and this one not to. Sir Richardson (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your response; but, NASA has released a larger image (the Blue Marble) of the whole planet from which we have created derivative works including the images of the 4 other continents shown here (don't worry about awkwardness, Europe and Asia are still MIA). So while this is the best we have (which, not to flog a dead horse, isn't a rationale for featuring an image), it's not the best we can have or should have. Cowtowner (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, since it still meets the criteria. I would happily !vote to delist and replace it if a suitable replacement candidate was suggested. --Avenue (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain the relevant change in our criteria since December 2009 (when it passed). Criterion 2 (on resolution) looks identical to me, except for the addition of an exemption for animations and video (which doesn't apply here). --Avenue (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're correct there has been no change in our criteria, but there has obviously been a change in our standards for this type of image. Just as there is a very high standard for bugs and birds, there is a high standard for continental satellite images as evidenced by this one's contemporaries. Keeping it degrades the project as it is technically inferior. Cowtowner (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two of the other continents' images have arrived since this was last !voted on, but the other two were promoted earlier, with one dating from 2006. So it's not that clear to me that our standards have suddenly changed. If the North America image was from a 2005 nom (not late 2009), that would be different. Yes, this image is inferior to the others, and I'd be happy to see a better version. But I think delisting should be a last resort, not the first. If you could tell me that you have tried other approaches to get a replacement made, without any luck, that would also be different. But this just seems too premature. --Avenue (talk) 22:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the timeline, I'd say that the North American promotion was out of line with the policy at the time. I don't think the fact that it was promoted in 2009 should give it immunity from deletion. I tried replacing the image myself, but was unable to get very far. I nomed it for deletion here in hopes that someone might have better luck at saving it themselves. Cowtowner (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It's becoming clear that this has no legs without a replacement candidate, which given that the method for obtaining such an image has been described, is really not such a big hurdle - possibly less than the collective effort spent on this nom. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I think that rationale is bogus, can we suspend this until someone with the know-how changes the projection on the Blue Marble image and makes a replacement? Cowtowner (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I experimented with this a bit and got up to around 10MP, but I'd like to do a bit more. BTW, the original blue marble texture is only 200MP, so how you can have Antarctica at 41MP and South America at 72MP, I don't know. Sounds like a lot of artificial upsampling to me. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 23:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The strange sizes are most likely the result of changes in projection which may stretch or compress various parts of an image to allow for a more accurate display of the continents. Therefore, some parts are larger than they may have been in the original. This is simply the nature of projecting large spherical sections onto a 2D plane. Looking at the images, I see no evidence that they were upsampled -- they are razor sharp. Cowtowner (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was mistaken. The 233MP image is not the largest available. NASA gives a large copy here, which comes to over 900MP once the two halves are combined. Cowtowner (talk) 03:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 28 Aug 2010 at 11:57:12 (UTC)
Current FP - Buster Keaton was an American comic actor.Suggested replacement- Scratches/dust removed.
Reason
The original was a little dirty/scratched- we've come to expect better at FPC. The new version, given some restoration work by Fallschirmjäger, is a little cleaner and much more worthy of the FP star.
It's very pretty and everything, but we don't need two featured pictures of crepuscular rays- neither is really showing anything the other isn't. Though neither is blowing me away, the the other image has pride of place in the article, and, though lower resolution, has more of a focus on the rays themselves- this one is very landscape-based. It's not really adding anything to the other article in which it is used other than window dressing. (We also have a third FP of the rays.)
Delist:Agree. Maedin\talk 18:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC) To clarify, delist based solely on the image's technical and resolution shortcomings, without regard to other possible FPs of the subject, which may or may not also be suitable for delisting. Maedin\talk11:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're able to- I linked them in the opening statement, and also explained why I nominated this one. This one has the smallest focus on the rays- the rays are only a small part of the picture; this one is more of a landscape. Additionally, this one is not given pride of place in the article, the other is- seems those who have edited the article agree that this is not the strongest illustration for the subject. J Milburn (talk) 01:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. I've looked at all three, and I think this is the best one to delist. This one is of similar quality, but shows the rays from underneath, which the other two do not, and IMO the remaining one is better than the one nominated for delisting. --Avenue (talk) 00:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And you feel all of them have strong EV? Three pictures, all showing basically the same thing in the same article can't all have FP-level value. J Milburn (talk) 01:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The other image has rays going up; these are going down. And it is a beautiful image; it was when it was taken, it was when it was first voted upon, and it is still a beautiful and tranquil image. I think it should appear on the Main Page a second time myself. Greg L (talk) 02:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
English: Animated scheme of a four stroke internal combustion engine, Otto principle: #Suction stroke - Air and vaporised fuel are drawn in. #Compression stroke - Fuel vapor and air are compressed and ignited. #Power stroke - Fuel combusts and piston is pushed downwards. #Exhaust stroke - Exhaust is driven out.
Reason
Suggested replacement, a much larger version is also available.A superior version of this animation is now available.
Presumably because it would disadvantage those with a slow connection, as with animated gifs, the full size file may have to be loaded before it can be viewed in the article. On a 56k connection, well, you work it out! :) Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 13:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Anti-aliased gifs should not have transparent backgrounds. The new graphic looks bad on top of any color - On white, the edges are aliased; on black the text is unreadable. The new gif should be on a solid background so that the edges can be properly aliased. Alternately, it should be converted into an animated PNG. Kaldari (talk) 00:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just notified the nominator (see this), so let's hold this open until he has the chance to comment. If anyone knows some German, feel free to contact the creator UtzOnBike. He actually commented on the original nomination as an IP user, so he might want to comment here. Makeemlighter (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep without prejudice The original nomination laid out a few points that were incorrect, and the newer animation does address the matter of the flow of fuel with the use of arrows, however both images still suffer from a factual inaccuracy in that they compress to the point of infinity, which in real life would not happen. The fact the newer image retained this incorrect element is regrettable, and it for this reason that I have chosen to oppose the delisting of the current version. The first time around this matter was brought up but the image passed since it the technicality was already present in animation, but the newer version was uploaded less than a month ago and should have addressed this issue during the creation phase. I am open to supporting the new version, but if we are going to have a new FP on the matter then we owe it to both ourselves and to wikipedia to get the animation details right. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be brutally honest, I do not know, but if you were to ask someone active in an automobile related project they could probably tell you you much space should be left at the top of the piston. @Zephyris: true, neither should be FP, but last time around the voting parties managed to produce 66% support for the image, which is why it got a star. We added a notice about the inaccuracy of the image to the POTD template as I recall, but since someone has gone through the trouble of making a new one I want to make sure we correct past mistakes so the newer version will be correct in all respects. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If consensus is to REPLACE (and at least one of the images is used in articles), perform the following:
Place the following text at the bottom of the WP:FPC/delist/subpage:
{{FPCresult|Replaced|}} with File:NEW_IMAGE_FILENAME.JPG --~~~~
Do NOT put any other information inside the FPCresult template. It should be copied and pasted exactly.
Replace NEW_IMAGE_FILENAME.JPG with the name of the replacement file.
Replace the {{Featured picture}} tag from the delisted image with {{FormerFeaturedPicture|delist/''Image name''}}.
Update the replacement picture's tag, adding the tag {{Featured picture|delist/image_name}} (replace image_name with the nomination page name, i.e., the image_name from Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/delist/image_name). Remove any no longer applicable tags from the original, replacement and from any other alternatives. If the alternatives were on Commons and no longer have any tags, be sure to tag the description page with {{missing image}}.
Replace the delisted Featured Picture in all articles with the new replacement Featured Picture version. Do NOT replace the original in non-article space, such as Talk Pages, FPC nominations, archives, etc.
Ensure that the replacement image is included on the appropriate sub-page of Wikipedia:Featured pictures and the appropriate section of Wikipedia:Featured pictures thumbs. Do this by replacing the original image with the new replacement image; do not add the replacement as a new Featured Picture.
Then perform the following, regardless of the outcome:
Move the nomination entry to the top of the "Recently closed nominations" section. It will remain there for three days after closing so others can review the nomination. This is done by simply moving the line {{Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/delist/Image name}} to the top of the section.
Add the nomination entry to the bottom of the archived delist nominations. This is done by simply adding the line {{Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/delist/Image name}} to the bottom of the appropriate section of the archive.
Nominations in this category have already been closed and are here for the purposes of closure review by FPC contributors. Please do not add any further comments or votes regarding the original nomination. If you wish to discuss any of these closures, please do so at Wikipedia talk:Featured picture candidates. Nominations will stay here for three days following closure and subsequently be removed.
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 21 Aug 2010 at 02:14:08 (UTC)
Original - This high resolution image of the "Face on Mars" landform in the Cydonia region of Mars was taken by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter in 2007, more than 20 years after Viking 1 captured the original image that gave the hill its popular name.Edit 1 - Includes an inset of the original Viking 1 image
Reason
The highest resolution image available of the famous "face on Mars." Looks good, high EV, and just plain cool.
Support It is a difficult-to-take picture that was executed as well as is humanly possible at the moment. Interesting. Stop, stare & click. Good for POTD. Next up: refuting Bat Boy.Greg L (talk) 02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm gonna be honest, without the face, there's nothing to this. The EV is clear, and the quality is high, but I can't help but feel that it would be better as a standalone image if we could still see the "face"- perhaps it could be added somewhere as a comparison? I'm not sure... As it stands in the article now, yeah, this is great, but I think this image can only really be understood in context, and that context requires an image of the "face". J Milburn (talk) 09:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think this has loads of EV showing that the face is just a trick of the light and at a different angle it's just a hill. The EV is how it's used in the article. — raekyT14:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but this is the higher quality image. The resemblance diminishes as the resolution and detail increases. I think the edit strikes a nice balance between the face and the actual shape of the mound. Cowtowner (talk) 03:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't know if it's necessarily better, but I added an inset of the original image that was taken by Viking 1 for comparison. See Edit 1--AutoGyro (talk) 21:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support original. I can't help but feel that the alt would look better on the main page, but it's clearly the original that is better in context. It would be highly hypocritical of me to make my choice based on main page concerns, so I am, after some thought, happy to support here.J Milburn (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. Have to squint a bit, and remember exactly what image you're looking for, but they ARE aligned. It just looks like the one's upside-down because the mouth of the original looks like it "should be" the eyes. Support edit. Adam Cuerden(talk)17:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another high EV, very large (though not as large as the last, some will be happy to hear) picture of a galaxy. More than a little bit impressive to look at and great quality. Already featured on Commons, as well as the Turkish and Japanese Wikipedias. Caption copied from the article.
And I would be the "some" who can now pledge full Support since this is clearly high quality (though slightly fuzzy) and EV that I hope we all can actually look at (though it was slightly slow to load). Milky way FTW! --I'ḏ♥One21:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 21 Aug 2010 at 14:36:17 (UTC)
Original - This image from the Solar Dynamics Observatory of the news-making solar event on August 1 shows the C3-class solar flare (white area on upper left), a solar tsunami (wave-like structure, upper right), multiple filaments of magnetism lifting off the stellar surface, large-scale shaking of the solar corona, radio bursts, a coronal mass ejection and more. This multi-wavelength extreme ultraviolet snapshot from the Solar Dynamics Observatory shows the sun's northern hemisphere in mid-eruption. Different colors in the image represent different gas temperatures. Earth's magnetic field is still reverberating from the solar flare impact on August 3, 2010, which sparked aurorae as far south as Wisconsin and Iowa in the United States.
Reason
I think this picture has high EV and it is a fine picture of the recent eruption on the sun, which lead to the polar lights covered in the news. It's also rare as it shows a solar tsunami in the upper right. Though it's not perfect, I think it deserves a FP. What's your opinion?
Comment I'm sure I've seen higher quality versions of the Sun and this image. Also, there are better images available to illustrate Solar flare than what are used on that page, like these: [8][9][10][11], but those are mostly flares and prominences --I'ḏ♥One15:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is a picture of the whole sun and not only flares and prominences. What I really like here is the solar tsunami. I've never seen that before Hive001contact16:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Compelling and endearing portrait of a subject very much in the role he for which he is known. Clear EV as the lead image in his biography. Already a featured picture on Commons. Caption copied from article.
Support. After considerable snooping, Googling, consideration and reading of OTRS tickets, I can now say that I am completely certain that this is legit, copyright-wise. So, on with the show- lovely portrait, high quality, clear EV. A big yes from me. J Milburn (talk) 00:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The quality of the portrait is fine. However, since portraits are so terribly ubiquitous, achieving FP status based on eye-catching quality is tough for portraits; they really have to be special, which this one isn’t (it’s *fine*). So that leaves us with the inherent interest of the subject matter. A Chicago alderman—even if she is the wife of someone rather notable—lacks the inherent notability sufficient to merit awarding FP status on that basis. Greg L (talk) 02:43, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If shes notable enough to pass WP:N and have our own article here, then a picture of her is every bit as worthy to be a FP then a picture of say the president. We don't have different levels of notability. The article has over 100 references, if you feel it doesn't pass WP:N then nominate it for deletion, otherwise don't oppose it on notability grounds if she has a very well sourced article. — raekyT15:03, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting you, Raeky: If shes notable enough to pass WP:N and have our own article here, then a picture of her is every bit as worthy to be a FP then a picture… That is a fallacious argument. There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of articles on profoundly minor subjects. We can’t use the fact that subject matter is sufficiently notable for an article on it to even exist on Wikipedia as a litmus text for whether we think it is a slick idea to have it as a Featured Picture on the Main Page for a day.
Just because we have an article on the music band Heads Hands & Feet (who once played at Dagenham Roundhouse in 1971) doesn’t mean it is a *wise* (or *desirable*) idea to have an FP picture of them. We have an article on Grommet too. The pictures on “Grommet” suck. I can do better. Want me to self-nominate it if I take a better picture of a grommet?
And, no, I’m not saying that Sandi Jackson is as non-notable as a grommet (I thought I’d preempt that line of counterargument here). I’m saying 1) the argument that an article exists on a subject does not mean that automatically makes the subject of such universal fascination and interest across all English-speaking cultures that it is deserving of being featured on the Main Page; and 2) an alderman of a U.S. city is (IMHO) not sufficiently notable for FP, and 3) she’s another Chicago-related subject and we’ve passed far more than enough Chicago-related subjects. Word has it there are other parts of this planet that English-speaking readers might be interested in.
And, by the way, it took me a while to participate to this because I had business to attend to in both Indianapolis and Chicago. Mindful that we had yet another picture of Chicago to nominate for FP status, I had the insight to take a picture of “Greg L’s foot in front of Miller’s Pub as I was driving by in the back seat of a taxi under Chicago’s “L”. Three subjects: Greg L’s foot in Chicago, the Chicago L, and Miller’s Pub in Chicago. I was thoughtful enough to e-mail it to Raeky from the taxi in case she wanted to forward it to Sir Tiger for consideration. ;-) Greg L (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think thats true, if we have a notable article about something and we have a very good illustration of it that meets all the FP criteria, then it's worthy to be a FP. Even if it is an obscure band like Heads Hands & Feet or a mundane object like a Grommet. Some things may be very difficult to get a FP worthy image, but not impossible. There is no requirement in our FP criteria for some arbitrary notability threshold. — raekyT17:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, it’s your opinion that there is no “requirement” about notability. I don’t share it. WP:Common sense makes a lot of things happen on Wikipedia without explicit “requirement”. When it comes to making readers want to click on a picture or its related article (stop, stare & click), I think we can find plenty of interesting, encyclopedic subjects between Topless beaches (that’s cheating—and the picture is too dark anyway), and Grommet. The plain fact is that because of Tony The Tiger, Chicago-related pictures are disproportionately represented on POTD. Try throwing a dart at a spinning globe and see how often you hit Chicago. Can we find pictures not related to Chicago for a while? And don’t make me nominate a picture of a damned grommet to make a point here. Greg L (talk) 18:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) You're still associating FPC with POTD, they're not the same project. POTD's draw upon FP's but not every FP will be a POTD. We don't promote FP's based on if they will be a great POTD or not. "Illustrates the subject in a compelling way, making the viewer want to know more" doesn't mean in context to seeing it on the front page, but in context to seeing it in the article. When you first load up an article, your eyes are naturally drawn to pictures first, if theres great pictures your more apt to (a) read the article and (b) be interested enough in the subject to read more then just that one article. Thats what that criteria means. You need to forget about POTD, it's irrelevant for the FPC process. We only bring it up when a subject of a picture is potentially not something we'd show on the front page, like burning bodies. In an ideal world we'd have one or more FP for every subject and article we have in the encyclopedia. — raekyT18:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Raeky here. There is absolutely no notability requirement at FPC- if we have an article on the subject that is well illustrated by an image, then it has as much right to be a FP as the Mona Lisa. Equally, there is no notability requirement at FAC, and nor should there be- featured content is about the quality of the article, image, sound, list or whatever- not about our opinions of the subject. J Milburn (talk) 18:40, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good. An important element of FP pictures is they are supposed to be of such high quality and beauty, or be on a topic of such general interest, that our readers would either want to click the picture to see a larger version or click the article to read up on the subject (or both). You can vote “Suppport Love it -Gotta seem more” on pictures of grommets and other crap people aren’t interested in; I’m not.
As for Raeky’s POTD's draw upon FP's but not every FP will be a POTD, I’m not convinced that is the case; not with a year-long queue for Howcheng. At least most (if not all) of what we are voting for ends up in his POTD queue (now numbering over 400 entries). Howcheng wrote on his talk page to me about how he is struggling to spread out all our bug pictures and what not. He wrote (here), as follows: …and there are still a bunch of insect photos that I haven't used yet to keep from flooding the Main Page with bugs! We’re promoting far too much stuff from certain themes (bird, bugs, Chicago) because of a small number of regulars who squat here and because the rest of us haven’t paid attention to the long-term ramifications of what we’ve been doing.
I’m tired of seeing truly ho-hum garbage awarded FP status. I once saw a vote on the FP page that said something along the lines of “Support - No major problems.” I have a higher hurdle for what I vote “support” on—so shoot me. With a queue waiting for POTD of over a year now, and a gazillion pictures related to Chicago, we need to tighten up this ship.
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 21 Aug 2010 at 00:04:59 (UTC)
Original - One of the network of underground tunnels in the Fort de Mutzig. Also known as Feste Kaiser Wilhelm II, the fort was built at the end of the 19th century by Germany to defend Strasbourg.
Reason
Strong and eyecatching image showing a key feature of the structure. An image of the tunnels has been favoured over an image of the surface fortifications as the lead image throughout the article's history. It drew me in, as this is not something that I associate with a fort- I think what I imagine is a little outdated!
Oppose I hovered over this at Commons, and didn't oppose it there because it's sort of nice to look at. However, when you get down to it, it's just a tunnel, and not much more can be said about it. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I did think that. It took some thought for me to nominate it. What convinced me was the fact that it's been pictures of the tunnels all the way through on article- I get the distinct impression that they're the significant/interesting thing about the fort. J Milburn (talk) 00:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support It may be just a tunnel, but I wasn't aware we judged on whether something is a tunnel or not - as tunnels go this this is a good picture, well taken given the tricky lighting issues... I strongly object to the oppose reasons above as we could say the same thing about any nom - eg "It's just a mushroom", or "it's just a bird", or "it's just a picture of a collection or glass and concrete in chicago"... Gazhiley (talk) 10:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did thank you PLW but thanks for the advice anyway... Whether any more "can be said about it" or not, it's still a good quality picture... "Nothing more can be said" about many noms on here, doesn't mean they should be opposed... The whole host of element pictures recently and gases were all pretty self explanatory but still got supported... Just saying that's all... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazhiley (talk • contribs) 17:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC) \[reply]
Support: It's a nice shot, composition very nice. There must be some story behind the way it was designed and built, like exactly where the material for the cladding came from. ℳono05:27, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources? Did Mono state any facts? He/she just said that there must surely be a story... No sources required for a statement like that... It's more of a question if anything... Gazhiley (talk) 12:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn, if I can withdraw while there are support votes. It's not gonna be promoted, the oppose arguments are very convincing.J Milburn (talk) 11:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Yet another bird. Shall we strive for some diversity? This is more than about “is this photograph *nice*?”, we’re partly deciding what goes to POTD and we’re saturating the queue with one bird photo after another. There has to be a spectacular buddhist template in Thailand that was captured with an awesome photograph. Something. Anything other than more bird and Chicago pictures. Greg L (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think we should outright request a temporary stop on bird images? Or only request very, very rare ones then? --I'ḏ♥One02:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I suppose if it is going to be another bird photo, we ought to be looking for extra* special, really high quality. Last I heard, Howcheng was really inundated in them and was trying to spread them around. Greg L (talk) 03:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will you please stop worrying about PotD? There's nothing in our criteria that say we shouldn't feature things similar to/related to images we have already featured. If it means we have a lot of bird images that don't reach the main page in forever, then that's no big deal, but we shouldn't be denying the star to an image that warrants it for images related to PotD. If you really don't want an image to be PotD for whatever reason, there's always the exemption list. Obviously, in this case, I agree with your conclusion, but that doesn't mean that I agree with your reasoning. J Milburn (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support It just says it has to illustrate the article to have EV, doesn't say it has to be in the taxobox. This one is sharper than that one also. I like this, seems the goose is trying to beat the heat, but let me see if anyone besides me will think the sharpness and quality is high enough for a bird image. --I'ḏ♥One02:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen you make this mistake on many occasions. Just because this is an image of the bird in an article on the bird, does not mean it has EV. To have encyclopedic value, an image must add something to an article, not merely be in it. As we already have another image showing what this one does which is given higher priority in the article, the EV of this one is not clear. J Milburn (talk) 08:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I get where you're coming from, but what I mean by "EV" is "is the image relevant to the article?" If it is, then, yes, I would say is that it does have EV if only because it has a connection to the article and is a good, realistic depiction of the topic - The article is the encyclopedia the image is of value because it shows something related to the topic, it "adds 1,000 words" and the photographer/creator's experience. What you're saying sounds more like rarity and value of image, which is definitely important to keep in mind, I even said something like that recently here, but to me it's not the same as "encyclopedic value," unless perhaps it is one of the only images available because then it is one of the only visual demonstrations to the reader, and it must be presumed the reader will have no background knowledge of the topic or will have ever seen whatever the topic is or where it is, what have you. If an image isn't placed or captioned nicely enough it can be moved, resized and have its caption rephrased very easily, and generally a case can be made for a number of decent or better quality images that they're the best one depending on many issues, so that shouldn't factor into deciding if an image can be said to have encyclopedic value. As for me I was satisfied with how the nominated pic was placed, not that I won't admit the page was a bit cluttered with nice, well-meaning photographs. --I'ḏ♥One17:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The point was that it was adding very little to the article. We already had a lead image for the whole "this is what the bird looks like" job. You say that "If an image isn't placed or captioned nicely enough it can be moved, resized and have its caption rephrased very easily, and generally a case can be made for a number of decent or better quality images that they're the best one depending on many issues, so that shouldn't factor into deciding if an image can be said to have encyclopedic value", but that is simply wrong. We can only judge encyclopedic value in context- we can't say "oh, well, I'm sure it could be very educational"- that's what Commons FP is for. First and formost, we are judging how much an image adds to the article in which it is used, not how much it could hypothetically add to any article. J Milburn (talk) 12:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment without noticing that this image was at FPC, or thinking that it was high quality (especially compared to the other images at this page), I just removed this from Canada Goose, which is a small, poor article cluttered with images, most of which little illustrate the bird's behaviour. My opinion, for whatever it is worth, is that there is nothing exceptional about this photo, especially compared to other images of single birds from the side that have been favoured for the article's taxobox. —innotata19:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose: Parts of the goose fade into the light textured background, especially the breast and white area of the neck. A contrasting color background would be better, IMO. --Catofgrey (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 20 Aug 2010 at 13:22:30 (UTC)
Original - F. Champenois Imprimeur-Éditeur, lithograph, 1897. The printing business here advertised, F. Champenois, was also used by Mucha for some of his prints for other clients.
Reason
Mucha produced many paintings, illustrations, advertisements, and designs, and his lithographies in particular are considered a formative influence in Art Nouveau. Mucha used female subjects on posters advertising such diverse items as alcoholic beverages (one is for Trappist beer, others for sparklingwines and other beers) and baby food in the late 1890s. This work is typical in framing the subject in a circle, richly decorated with what sometimes are symbolist elements.
Comment: I'd like to support this, but what's the stamp on the bottom to the left of the signature? And what's the slightly darker band at the bottom? I doubt either of them were in the original... J Milburn (talk) 22:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Uneven brightness (compare the background behind the date in the top left to the background behind the date in top right, as well as a lot of banding visible in the bootom quarter), significant clipping along the top edge. 78.245.228.100 (talk) 22:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe he does PLW but I'll be honest I can't really see any clipping... looks rounded to me which would not be there if clipped... Gazhiley (talk) 12:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 20 Aug 2010 at 05:06:35 (UTC)
Original - A Chthamalus stellatus barnacle colony
Reason
This is a Commons valued image, is selected on the Crustaceans portal, was used in a DYK article, is significant to its articles, so I think it's already looked upon as exceptional.
Oppose. I'm not too excited about the lighting here. It is pretty flat and the contours of the frog against the dark background are not very well defined. And take the left front leg, it is disappearing in the shadow and the right hind leg is disappearing in a blur. Whats the scale here? It must be tiny, just judging from the very low depth of field. --Dschwen23:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think a comparison to the rock/the algae on the rock gives a vague sense of scale- yeah, I'm guessing it's pretty small, but not miniscule. This video is both cute and helps give you an idea of the size of them. J Milburn (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I decided not to support on the previous nomination because of the lack of lead and headroom. This edit fixes that perfectly for me. Maedin\talk15:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 20 Aug 2010 at 00:09:14 (UTC)
Original - USS San Francisco (SSN-711) in dry dock to assess damage sustained after running aground approximately 350 miles south of Guam January 8, 2005. The Navy former dry dock known as “Big Blue” is capable of docking ships that weigh up to 40,000 Long Tons. The Navy certified Big Blue for the one-time docking of San Francisco. San Francisco is the second fast-attack submarine to be attached to the forward-deployed Submarine Squadron Fifteen, home ported on board Naval Base Guam. The blue cover is to hide classified equipment.Edit Less red cast, more punch.
Reason
I think that it fits "iconic representation" well. Where else do you find a submarine with its front torn half open?
If you're referring to the edit, then the opposite is the case. High pass sharpening, 5p with 75% opacity. I can crank it up more if you want *wide grin*. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 13:48, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I do not quite see what information value this image is supposed to have. It does not show the entire sub, so the focus supposedly is on the wrecked part. But there is a blue tarp on what I guess are the interesting/classified parts, and the overall resolution is disappointing. So you don't learn anything about the sub. What you learn is that there must have been an accident, but this is just a minor news item, and not an encyclopedic fact. A news item from over five years ago. --Dschwen00:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, I've had a think about this, and I agree with Dschwen. First of all, the size isn't that impressive, which is a shame, and secondly, although it's a good decorative image, it doesn't really illustrate anything- only that there was some damage. The extent of the damage is not clear, what caused the damage is not shown... It's a nice image to have, and it adds a bit of punch to the article, but I don't think it's really FP material. J Milburn (talk) 01:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can't really explain it any better than Dschwen... It's a good picture, but doesn't really have any purpose other than to demonstrate a minor news item... Gazhiley (talk) 17:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is an important image of a building demolished over 40 years ago. Although the image could be sharper, it is high EV and pretty decent for the 1960s.
Oppose This doesn’t look like fabulous photography to me. And Chicago’s Grand Central Station doesn’t have the fame (interest) that NY’s does (I think). The combination of those two means I’m not seeing the “stop, stare & click” reaction here. I mean this is a nice way, but Sir Tiger’s passion for all-things-Chicago reminds me of Rain Man’s passion for Judge Wapner: “It’s a picture of Chicago—definitely.” ;-) Greg L (talk) 04:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Chicago GCS isn't really comparable to NY GCT because the latter still exists. Tony is right that this is one of the most frequently discussed demolished landmarks, comparable to the old NY Penn Station. Arguably, the EV of a picture of a demolished building is higher than that of an extant building, which a reader could simply go look at. The angle of this shot is a little odd, but weak support from me on the basis of EV. Chick Bowen18:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 19 Aug 2010 at 20:01:47 (UTC)
Original - A dugong appears to be grazingEdit - Highlight recovery and colour noise reduction.
Reason
A high quality and EV image. The little yellow fish next to it don't obstruct or hurt the quality of the image IMO but they show contrast so that, even though the image is underwater, we can see that the image doesn't have much of a blue-green refraction.
I agree that it would be better to see the animal from the side, but Julien's photo is the best one we have on WP now. --I'ḏ♥One20:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not really an argument in its favour. FPC is not about featuring the "best we currently have"- that would be more the domain of VPC, but especially the domain of Commons's valued images. J Milburn (talk) 20:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't nominate it just because it's WP's current best, I nominated it because I thought it was eye-catching, I liked how the photographer was apparently able to get as close as they did, because I think the image as is does a very good job illustrating the article it's about and because I consider myself pretty critical and was still impressed with the image's quality, such as its color, brightness and the luck of photoing the fish too, since fish tend to be skittish and swim away very fast when people or large animals get close to them, as far as I've seen. I think this actually does deserve recognition, or if not that for someone to upload or suggest something better, or the thoughts of those who see this photo. --I'ḏ♥One23:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I couldn't do much for it - the blown parts are mostly pure white, but you should see the difference if you open the images in tabs and switch back and forth, it's obvious on the back of the animal; you should also notice the absence of green and blue splotches (and less noticeably, red and yellow) in the shadows - these are tell-tale signs of a cheap and/or compact camera, and have been difficult to remove for the "person on the street" (points at self) until Adobe put a very useable algorithm into Lightroom version 3 this year (I've said this before: I'm not on their payroll - yet ;) ). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 09:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Less than optimal view: cloud cover obscures a bit of the geography. Also jpeg compression is too high, yielding artifacts noticeable at full resolution. Jujutaculartalk20:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The EV's not actually as high as I expected, but it's still there. However, I'm afraid I agree with Juju about the quality. The cloud cover is very annoying, and, also, would the archipelago not extend further north? J Milburn (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator comment I've been trying to find an or create an alternate but my computer's not working with WorldWind for some reason even though they should be compatible (if interested see here). I did submit this version though that shows the southernmost tip... --I'ḏ♥One02:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Huge file, very detailed, clear EV (lead image in the article on the subject), very "stop, stare, click". Already a FP on Commons, caption nabbed from the article. As with any image of this size, Dschwen's image viewer will be useful.
??? Not so fast, I'm on Firefox and when I attempted to open, what must be the biggest online image I've ever seen according to its dimensions I just got an error message... Is that normal? I see it on the image viewer and the preview to the right, though. --I'ḏ♥One16:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt firefox can handle a 74.13 MB 343 megapixel image... as the reasoning says, use the flash image viewer or download it and view it in photoshop. — raekyT16:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support I struck my “support” vote. Well, the full-size image file is obviously impractically too big. We’re doing few visitors a favor by showing a thumb in an article that—after going to the image’s file page and innocently clicking on the image (without reading or comprehending what the file size means)—results in a Service Pack-size download wait. I’m getting a bit busy right now for a week to do anything about this, but 74 MB is near what some of my Mac OS X upgrades weigh-in at (go make coffee during the download). There should never be surprises when someone clicks a link on Wikipedia; and such a gigantic, browser-breaking file is unusual and is therefore a surprise.
We need to get some smaller derivatives of this, with links to them imbedded into the full-size file pages of this image on both en.Wikipedia version and the one on Commons. I suggest something weighing in at around 12–15 megapixels. A 15 MP image would measure 4,725 × 3,175. We can use that 15 MP on the Main Page. And that image file page can then provide a link to the big-ass one for those who want to wait and see if their browser breaks under the strain. We probably ought to do this for every article that uses this image. Greg L (talk) 18:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't the prominent warning directly under the image sufficiently take care of that in your opinion, or the size description under the image? Hekerui (talk) 19:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although I don't agree we should do courtesy copies, we have the large image viewer on Commons they can click on and browse around it even on slow connections, but we do have the fancy new template made for just this circumstance, smaller courtesy files that are of a featured picture/video. But I only feel that using them on video is justified. Maybe modify the large image template on Commons to make the image browser MUCH more prominent and easier to see? — raekyT19:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No no, the full res version is featured, but policy dictates low res version goes in the article for videos. Therefore we linked the full res version from the caption. Jujutaculartalk20:15, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I have no objection to a smaller version being used in the article, even on the main page, but I think we should be featuring the larger version. I don't think these technical issues should, in this case, stand in the way of the image being featured. J Milburn (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A smaller version would be nice, since just clicking on image file is something we are all quite accustomed to. But I also find Raeky’s bolder template is a big help too. Greg L (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support The big, bolder “viewer” template aviso Raeky added was a significant improvement. It still might be nice to have a smaller, 15 MP (4,725 × 3,175) version to fill up anyone’s browser window—no matter what its width—the way things are typically done (along with the ability to zoom around after using the magnifier button). Whatever seems prudent. Greg L (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All bold? Giant waste of space? Two images? Pushes the image description completely out of view? Sorry, but this is a typographic nightmare and a case of too much is too much. The regular large image template already sticks out by being the only red template on image description pages. This is restarting an arms-race for the users' attention, resulting in cluttered and confusing description pages. And now we have two templates for the same purpose. This is just inconsistent, and inconsistent is bad for the user. Commons description pages are already packed with "information". This does not help. It is a step in the wrong direction. I sincerely hope this gets thought over again. --Dschwen21:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you put it up for deletion without even mentioning this thread and why it was made. This should be brought up on Commons Village Pump. The issue is pretty big IMHO, that a IP user can EASILY miss the one line of text and pink square and click the image and crash their browser and/or computer. When that possiblity exists, bold in-your-face warnings need to exist. That combined with clear indication of the large-image-viewer as an alternative. — raekyT21:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to comment there, rather then complaining here. The motivation why it was created, namely to appease voters in a FPC discussion only makes matters worse in my opinion. --Dschwen22:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
* Oppose Until either a Firefox-breaking land mine is fixed with reasonable-size alternative, or until Dschwen stops trying to delete an attention-getting aviso about the land mine.
And I did comment there. Your concerns over “restarting an arms-race for the users' attention” are overblown.
Our I.P. readership with some experience on Wikipedia (not the über experience you and I have) are accustomed to how things normally work. If they click that above image, they are sent to an image file page where their prior (but limited) experience gives them a certain expectation on what to do—and expect—next. And if these I.P. users just click on that image link after they get there—like they may have done a hundred times in the past—the idiotic file is so big, it will choke some people’s browsers—like User:IdLoveOne’s Firefox—into an epileptic comma. That’s just stupid. If we’re going to provide landmines to click on, either we should have a very easy to notice aviso there, or we should be providing smaller images.
A 75 megabyte, Firefox-choking image file is bordering on the absurd. Your complaining about providing an attention-getting aviso about that is absurd. Greg L (talk) 22:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: at the Commons page for this picture, I noticed that the original version of the image is only 3000x2016 pixels and 9.31 MB. If this becomes a FP, let's have the first thing users come to after clicking be the smaller image with a notice and link to the larger version. --LucasBrown00:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What adds EV to this picture is the fact it's so darn huge and you can drill down and see the tiny stars that makeup the big picture. I do not think we need to promote a smaller version. I'm mildly OK with uploading a smaller version and tagging it with {{FPlowres}}, strongly opposed to promoting anything but the full version and would highly prefer a more visible/better LargeImage template on Commons. Also I think any Opposes strictly because of the template fight on Commons should be stricken, it's not this image's fault people get overly bureaucratic. — raekyT00:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support On the assumption that the big-ass pink alert template stays there warning people to take care that they might boil their browsers trying to load-in a 75 MB image until that can be replaced with an idea Dschwen has for helping steer visitors clear of stepping on such a land mine. Greg L (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It would be support if this were reasonable-sized. I don't see any reason to have a candidate this huge except just to show off, This is an interesting reverse of the topic we usually get around here about images not being big enough even when they meet size criteria. Maybe we should have a restriction on size. I'm betting almost everyone who sees this image before and after it gets featured won't even be able to look at it, worse than that it might even trigger bugs and crashes, and don't even get me started on Adobe. I'm not even sure an HDTV used as a monitor could carry this and I'm sure significantly less users have supercomputers. But since this probably will get featured then congratulations on presumably breaking the current biggest FP filesize in history record. --I'ḏ♥One16:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so you oppose because you just clicked without reading the warning and it crashed your browser. Boo hoo! You are ignoring the fact that we have a viewer for large images, so your bet isn't worth much. You are ignoring the fact that there is a reason for this high resolution and the nominator mentioned it. What does an HDTV have to do with anything? You are just assuming a lot of things, like the image is nominated just to break some imaginary "record". Or that a substantial amount of users cannot read or just mindlessly clicks around (although this might not be far from the truth). The discussion should be how can we make the experience of viewing large images as robust and safe as possible for our users. Sticking our heads in the sand and shunning high quality material is certainly not the right way to go. --Dschwen16:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I saw the warning and tried anyway. My point remains that a picture file looses purpose the moment it can't be viewed and even moreso when we could be adding bugs and crashes to the problem and I include the flash viewer in that as well; At that point there's little discussion of quality. I ask you this as kindly as I can, Dschwen: Please be civil and just don't. --I'ḏ♥One17:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are a real piece of work. You just keep claiming it cannot be viewed. That is exactly what I meant by sticking your head in the sand. I am fully aware of the criticisms of flash. The point is for >90% of all users it just works. But as you might not have seen (or also purposefully ignore) there also is a non-flash version of the viewer. --Dschwen19:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on, J Milburn, you're better than that, you know that's not the problem or what I said. I don't think I can stop it being promoted anyway, so all my oppose really does is nag everyone caught in the gimmickiness of a super-huge image. And size ≠ quality. --I'ḏ♥One01:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, of course it doesn't, and yeah, I fully accept what I said wasn't the full picture- I was just trying to point out how weird what you are saying is. There's no point us playing word games, but you are, for all intents and purposes, asking for a lower quality image to feature. Does that not sound weird to you? It's certainly not anything to do with our criteria. If you want a smaller image, go ahead and upload one, but common sense dictates that this one is going to be the featured version, if any of them are (and FP sense dictates that one of them should be :P). J Milburn (talk) 01:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A lovely image. It's hard to have too much resolution for a galaxy like this. I expect there would be interesting detail even at 10 times this size.--Avenue (talk) 12:55, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, it has always seemed logical to me that a larger subject generally be expected to have a larger resolution. It's hard to imagine a bigger subject than a galaxy. Cowtowner (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 18 Aug 2010 at 15:34:46 (UTC)
Original - The rock was found in Hakel, Lebanon, a famous lagerstätten of Cretaceous age that have well-preserved variety of different fossils. The rock has quite a few fragments, and three recognizable fossils: Diplomystus birdii , lobster Pseudostacus sp., and a partial Dercetis triqueter
Comment: Not seeing the EV. It's just another pic of a fossil in fossil, it doesn't illustrate anything in particular. In Paleontological sites of Lebanon it doesn't show much- just that there are fossils in Lebanon, which we know there are, that's why there's an article (and we have to take your word for it that it's from Lebanon anyway). It's just not showing anything. Compare to this image, which was recently promoted- that's being used to illustrate the species. J Milburn (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if one is looking for a reason to deny the oblivious, I mean EV, one could always find the reason, couldn't one? But your last tirade was way too much. You even doubt my words that the rock was found in Hakel, Lebanon! And to say "It's just not showing anything"... Unbelievable! The image you refer to shows one fish. The nominated image shows variety of marine organisms, and now it was added to Nematonotus "to illustrate the species". So now what?--Mbz1 (talk) 18:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The EV is not at all obvious, for the reasons I stated. I do not doubt your word that it was found in Lebanon, but that does not mean that it has EV there (I think that was clear from the way I said it- I believe English is not your first language?). The point I was making is that there's nothing in the image that tells us this is from Lebanon- the fact it is from Lebanon is pretty irrelevant. If I was to write an article on Computer use in England and take a picture of my laptop, it doesn't automatically have EV, just because it's a computer in England. If this displayed something distinctive about fossils in Lebanon, then it would have EV, but the pure fact it's a fossil and from Lebanon does not mean it has EV in that usage. And no, it isn't showing anything of significance. Again, say I was to take the picture I mentioned- yes, it would show a laptop (just as this shows several fossils) but that laptop (and those several fossils) wouldn't be adding much to the article. Yes, the image I mentioned shows one fish. That's one fish in an article about said fish. This shows several animals, but was not used in an article about those animals, and so could in no way argue EV because of that. You have now added this to an article about one of the animals, but the fact that the image is crowded with other fossils does not make this an ideal illustration for that article. J Milburn (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it does. It is fossil, but it shows a fish in its natural environment surrounded by other marine organisms. If anything it adds EV. If this image has no EV, I am not sure which does --Mbz1 (talk) 21:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it is not. As I explained above the image shows the fish and the lobster in their natural environment, in the close proximity to each other. It is what gives the image EV. I could have taken a high resolution image of a fish only, but it would have meant to destry the work of the Nature.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As the lead image in the article about the fish genus, I would expect an image of the fish. There could reasonably be other animals there, but the inclusion of the fish here is pretty much incidental- your choice of image name illustrates this neatly... J Milburn (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Info This apparently not encyclopedic image that "just not showing anything" is used on at least 7 pages of different Wikipedias, not counting English wikipedia. Oh well...--Mbz1 (talk) 06:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're falling into the trap another regular here did recently- just because an image is used on lots of pages, does not mean that it has any EV in any of them. J Milburn (talk) 10:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IMO you, J Milburn, are are getting too involved with the nomination, if you allow yourself to question other editors votes as that. IMO it is not a decent thing to do.--Mbz1 (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to work out where the EV is. You say it is there, but you're yet to say where, as far as I can see, and Hive001 says there is EV, and so I'm wondering where (s)he sees it. When there is disagreement, it'd be nice if people explained their statements, rather than just making them. You've made far more edits to this page than me, and have a clear interest in the image being promoted. You've also become unnecessarily defensive. If anyone's "too involved"... J Milburn (talk) 12:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Surely the lobster is more of the focus than the fish and so it should be added to the appropriate genus page, but as far as I can see it doesn't exist yet. I think it could be very useful for illustrating how long they've been around for. (P.S. I'm generally a lurker on here, but felt a comment would help the discussion. TerriG)137.73.38.169 (talk) 14:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comment, 137.73.38.169. I added the image to Lobster. This image (that "just not showing anything") actually depicts lobster's antennas in the greater details than any image of a live animal used in the article is. --Mbz1 (talk) 15:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, spamming. Placing the image in articles in which it doesn't belong in the hope it will make people believe it has more EV than it does. Please stop playing the victim, it's not going to achieve anything. J Milburn (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is a great picture searching for encyclopedic value. It doesn't belong in Lobster and the Nematonotus article is a single sentence. It has a little bit of value in the other articles, but they wouldn't be much worse without it. Kaldari (talk) 22:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tell you what. When I nominated the image I thought somebody would complain about the quality, but even in a very bad dream I could not imagine this absolutely unique, high resolution image would be opposed because it has no EV. I even have no words to describe what I feel about that. It is very, very wrong, but you know what let's delete that stupid image altogether. It "just not showing anything", it does not add any value to the articles it appears in, and the nominator is spamming. --Mbz1 (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to withdraw the nomination, but I decided I will not, if for nothing else just to keep the record of ... and laugh over it later on. After all it is one of the best images in Cretaceous --Mbz1 (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, you don't seem to quite understand what EV actually means. You've not really addressed the points, you've just got incredibly upset. You can't win them all, and if you can't take criticism, I don't think you should really be putting your work forward for review like this. As we have all said, the picture quality is high, so this is in no way an attack upon you, your picture or your abilities- as you know, I have supported your work in the past, even in cases where others haven't. We have to judge the use of the image on the encyclopedia, not just the image itself. J Milburn (talk) 23:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Am I allowed to have my own opinion and express it? So, IMO the rock (and the image of the rock) have great EV. IMO it is one of the best or the best image for Cretaceous and for Paleontological sites of Lebanon If there was no this image, I wound not have written the article Paleontological sites of Lebanon at all. I believe that sooner or later the image will be added to one of lobster/crayfish articles. I believe I have done nothing wrong with this nomination. IMO it is laughable to say the image has no EV, and this was my last comment here. I am taking the nomination off my watch list.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:16, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the fossil particularly characteristic of Lebanon or the Cretaceous? Or is the fact it is from them pretty much coincidental? This would be like claiming a photograph of a field in England has EV in England, purely because it happens to be in England. Just because it is in England, doesn't mean it is automatically worthy of support... J Milburn (talk) 10:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I wasn't gonna vote on this so I could close it, but I love this image. How can a high-quality and luckily clear and easy-to-make out fossil be said not have EV? To the fossil article? I'm seriously seeing too many votes claiming little or no EV on images that clearly do have it. If you don't like an image or don't think it should be featured you should explain why in a better way. My one criticism of this is that black might've been a better background color choice. --I'ḏ♥One05:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying that every image of a fossil automatically has EV? EV should be our first concern, so it's hardly a spurious reason to oppose... J Milburn (talk) 10:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two comments 1. If you're saying the image doesn't have EV for those articles (which I still sort of disagree with) then I say we create appropriate articles for the species shown in the fossil. 2. Can't see the ALT, can you make a JPG or SVG version, Mbz? --I'ḏ♥One00:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it'd be good if you explained the EV, rather than merely asserting it. Two other points- these animals are not identified to species level, and svg is not appropriate for photographs. J Milburn (talk) 10:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It has EV because the fortunate high quality of something preserved millions of years ago and very well photographed recently is indisputably educational to issues related to fossilization. Fossils are also pretty rare, so even though they might not have been explained yet very well I think this is still feature-worthy material. --I'ḏ♥One15:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fossils are not at all rare. I could walk outside with my camera now and be back in two hours with pictures of loads of them- I wouldn't even need to cheat and take pictures of the ornamental ones dotted around my house. For something FP-worthy for its use in fossil, I'd want to see something a lot more impressive than this. J Milburn (talk) 17:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not add alternating, LucasBrown did, and I cannot see it either. I only have another image with a black background that I linked to bellow. About EV, I cannot understand how one could say it has no EV at least in Cretaceous. It shows the variety of different fossils for that period. About writing an article, it has been discussed already --Mbz1 (talk) 02:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've created a black-background version but appear to have messed up the upload--including, for some reason, uploading it to "File_shrimp_black.png" intead of "Fossil_shrimp_black.png", among other mess-ups. But hey, it's my first uploading... If anybody wants to fix it, go ahead. --LucasBrown05:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the lobster's ID was printed at the rock, when I bought it. I sent the image to the export, who ID the two fishes, but looks like you are sure that one fish's ID was made in error. It is fixed now.Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Promoted File:The fossils from Cretaceous age found in Lebanon.jpg It doesn't seem the request for a black version can be satisfied at this time because the one presented doesn't thumbnail. I note that supports were not conditional on a black background, so those who asked for it can try "delist and replace" nominating a black version when a functioning one becomes available. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 06:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confident that this this color balance is close to the original, and I'm certain that it's closer than the unrestored version. As paper ages it tends to 'yellow', causing the original blue to shift towards green. Jujutaculartalk14:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 19 Aug 2010 at 01:53:06 (UTC)
Image 1 - Panoramic view of Meteor Crater, over a kilometer (~3/4 mile) acrossImage 2 - Satellite view of the craterImage 3 - POV shot of the craterOld picture by Dschwen, not for voting, just to freak out Raeky :-)
Reason
All appear to be very high quality photos of the giant, dozens-of-millenia-old hole in the ground that I thought were pretty eye-catching, have high EV, so I thought it was worth a shot to nominate one or all of them.
Support Image 2 Only one I can support is the one from space, the panorama doesn't show nearly enough of the rim to get an idea of what your looking at, same with the other image. — raekyT04:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The panorama is not up to current standards. It lacks the details to get an idea of the scale (for example you can barely make out the fenced in part at the bottom of the crater). I've been to that crater in 2004. And I'm sure I took pictures, but the quality is probably even more out of date now :-) --Dschwen13:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support image 2, oppose image 3, weak oppose image 1. EV solid on the NASA shot, and I actually liked it more than I thought when I zoomed in. Image 3 is "just another shot" tacked on to the bottom of the article- not really seeing what it's adding, and the colour/quality is a bit off. Image 1 has fair EV, but I don't think the quality is quite what I'd like to see from a panorama. I can also see (what I assume are) stitching problems. Just follow the horizon along. J Milburn (talk) 23:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on Old picture by Dschwen Actually if the colors didn't look so muted I'd say that's probably the best panorama we have of the creator. Maybe a tweek in photoshop to make the colors pop more and I would support that. Doesn't freak me out, why would you think so? lol. Except that I suspect you've been everywhere on the damn planet by now, every place that we nominate you have a picture of as well! Wish I could afford to travel as much. — raekyT03:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This section is for Featured Picture (or delisting) candidacies whose closure is postponed for additional editing, rendering, or copyright clarification.
Support For now. I think this could really be a good addition to related articles, this might be your best nomination in a while. --I'ḏ♥One00:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A technically good image, but like other cityscape pictures you've nominated before it's vastly overused. Some of these articles have more pictures then text... — raekyT01:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, and you do a wonderful job expanding those articles, but would you consider removing it from Chicago Spire since it's only in a gallery and it doesn't show the site very well, or moving it out of the gallery as a replacement for File:ChicagoSpireFutureSite.jpg since it shows the location much better than that image. It's removal from Aqua (skyscraper) since it's only a small component and doesn't serve much purpose in way of showing it's location, and the picture it's self is about as much screen real estate as the entire readable prose on the page (see Wikipedia:Layout#Images). The remaining uses seem ok, Illinois Center I don't think it particularity illustrates that very well, but that article is lacking of images to begin with, probably should remove one of the two images though due to Wikipedia:Layout#Images imho. — raekyT18:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Because of the good quality and interesting, wide-angle view. Although Howcheng will have to spread out Chicago-themed pictures on POTD just as he will have to with all our bug-related ones. Greg L (talk) 03:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I hate to be a prick, but the buildings are tilted (easy to fix usually), could we ask the author for frames or a restitch do you think? Noodle snacks (talk) 04:38, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You or someone else could still contact him on Flickr and point him towards this thread and see if hes willing to (a) fix it himself or (b) upload the base images for one of us to fix it. — raekyT14:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As the author of this photo, I was just too lazy originally to fix the obvious tilt after stitching it together, but since there is interest here for this picture, I'd be willing to process it again from scratch. I'll try to take a swing at it this weekend. Stay tuned.--Mindfrieze (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose due to slant - the building dead centre (no idea what it's called but its the famous one that silver looking) is leaning almost as much as the tower of Piza... And the bridge below is a little of straight too... Otherwise decent picture... Not sure what relevance this has to the Chicago Loop though - on first inspection anyway I cannot see any trains... Gazhiley (talk) 08:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The building dead center, silver looking. That's the Trump Hotel and tower. The reason that there's no trains in the picture is because the Chicago Loop is not The Loop of the El system. The Chicago Loop is a district of Chicago, which you would have worked out for yourself if you had bothered to read either article that Tony had given you. Matthewedwards : Chat 21:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now, perhaps this should be suspended? It'd be nice to see if a restitch could improve it a little. We may as well have as good an image as possible, there's no hurry. J Milburn (talk) 23:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Still Oppose Most buildings to right of main tower are still leaving - to the left this time though (can't remember which way they were before as old version removed from nom). buildings to left are fine though. gazhiley.co.uk08:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question I didn't have a problem with the original, I guess count me as still in support, but did you change the color? Seems less realistic. --I'ḏ♥One12:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember correctly, I adjusted the color levels to remove a very slight red tint and increased saturation slightly (in the 15% range.) I made these adjustments more for my preference than for consideration on wikimedia. --Mindfrieze (talk) 16:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I just can't get past the blown highlights on this one. I'm surprised no one has brought them up yet. The big bluish building on the left is particularly bad, the white building next to it is all white for 20 stories, and the building at the center is pretty bad too. Makeemlighter (talk) 00:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Nice, but still some tilt on the right. The Regatta is the only one that seems to me to have clearly blown highlights, and I think it helps emphasize the curve there, so that's not why I'm opposing. --Avenue (talk) 11:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
_edit.jpg)
_curves.png)
Africa, almost 32MP.
South America, 72MP.
Australia, almost 23MP.
Antarctica, almost 41MP.
North America, less than 3MP..jpg)
.jpg){kind=link}
![[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AFeatured_picture_candidates%2FChambord_pano.jpg&action=historysubmit&diff=231231855&oldid=127909494){kind=link}
![[5]](http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/SSPOD/SuperStock_1189R-3511B-FB.jpg){kind=link}
![[6]](http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/blake-final-tall.jpg){kind=link}
![[7]](http://www.iamtommyg.com/images/men/courtney-brown-2.jpg){kind=link}
.jpg){kind=link}
.png){kind=link}
![[8]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:446667main1_sdo-fulldisk-670.jpg){kind=link}
![[9]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ring_of_fire.jpg){kind=link}
![[10]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:28102003_lasco_eit.jpg){kind=link}
![[11]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Sun_with_Prominence.jpg){kind=link}
.jpg){kind=link}
