Talk:Julia Gillard

Infobox and religion

I refer to a number of attempts to categorise Ms Gillard in this respect. It is one of the key disadvantages of infoboxes that they encourage the slotting of people into preconceived categories. I agree entirely with the revert edit-summary: atheism is not a religion. That is, she has no allegiance at all to the supernatural industry. She is free to be thus, and should not be cast in terms of a religion just because the infobox has a field to that effect. It was created by Americans, who virtually demand religious affiliation by their politicians—all that happens is a lot of public lying. Tony (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I could not agree more. Gillard actually referred to that situation in some text I earlier added to the article, but which was later removed on the basis of being too wordy. It said "...she thinks that for people of faith, the greatest compliment she could pay to them is to respect their genuinely held beliefs and not to engage in some pretence about hers." It was well sourced. I would like to see it back in the article, but was not going top engage in an edit war over it. HiLo48 (talk) 03:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Yup, it was an important statement. Tony (talk) 04:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It's probably worth putting it in wikiquotes for the "not to engage in some pretence about hers" bit. Donama (talk) 05:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand that last suggestion. Wikiquotes? Please explain. HiLo48 (talk) 07:29, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a specific multi-language wiki for quotations and is a Wikimedia project just like Wikipedia. For example see wikiquote:Kevin Rudd and note that wikiquote:Julia Gillard does not yet exist. Donama (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah thanks. Interesting stuff. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen a reference that says she is an atheist, altho perhaps there is one and perhaps she is. Atheism is indeed a philosophical position: the belief that God or the supernatural do not exist. Asserting that God does exist or does not exist are equally beliefs - see Anthony_Kenny#Philosophy - the President of the Royal Institute of Philosophy. Atheism is present in numerous world religions, such as Jainism and some forms of Buddhism and religious Humanism. However, beliefs about God's existence alone don't form a religion.

From what I've seen, her position until further information is known would have to be categorised (and I know single categories are fairly silly for something this complex) as agnosticism - the belief that the existence of God or the supernatural cannot be known (even if one has faith or lack of faith that they do, such as Kierkegaard's absurdism dilemma). Believing that God and the supernatural don't exist is a philosophical position and all philosophical positions translate to a person's approach to life and decisions, so it is relevant for the voting public to know. For now, "none" or "agnosticism" is a suitable enough category.Utopial (talk) 10:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of people seem to have looked for and NOT found any quote from Gillard saying that she is an atheist. I'm not sure that she has even personally used the word agnostic. So really, for us to use a single word to describe her position, when she has used several, is a form of synthesis, something discouraged here. I also have the view that atheism does not have to be described in negative terms (eg. belief that god does NOT exist). It can be simply the expectation/assumption that everything either already has or will have a rational explanation. One does not have to invoke a god to define an atheist. HiLo48 (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that it's better not to categorise her as something that she hasn't explicitly categorised herself as. I wouldn't call categorising it 'synthesis' (that's merging sources), rather, it's original research.

However the definition is phrased, atheism is a belief. Anything based on assumptions is a belief. Atheism makes the assumption of naturalism, i.e. a committed belief in naturalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.53.199.241 (talk) 03:31, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can see your perspective that it is a belief, but it's not an unprovable belief in a mystery friend. It's a belief for which the proven supporting evidence is constantly growing. HiLo48 (talk) 08:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

No probabilities can be assigned to either belief, so stating that the supporting evidence is growing isnt correct. Assigning probabilities requires complete knowledge, which no one has. I assume the conception of 'God' you are referring to is the anthropomorphistic one or the unmoved mover where the difference is that deists believe that the universe was created out of something rather than out of nothing - deists having mystery friends, atheists thinking objects pop out of thin air are useless insults. Wittgenstein and others consider the concept of 'God' differently to how you do, which is good reading material to try to gain an understanding of deism, which should be encouraged if u ever make references to it. Things are never as simple as they appear - understanding is more important than judgement.Utopial (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The repeated references to "God" in this discussion are puzzling to an atheist such as myself. Atheists disbelieve in all deities equally. We disbelieve in the Hindu elephant boy-deity Ganesh, the Mesoamerican deity Quetzalcoatl, the Muslim/Jewish/Christian monotheistic deity, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster all quite equally. We do not single out one particular deity for our disbelief, as you characters seem to be doing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.5.249.182 (talk) 01:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, according to the Australian government, Atheism is a religion. Sbrianhicks (talk) 17:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

In what context? Where is the evidence? HiLo48 (talk) 17:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Gillard never said she didn't know if God exists but that she didn't believe in God's existence. Just because Gillard never claims to be an atheist doesn't mean she isn't one. Has Gillard claimed to be an agnostic? The atheist tag is now being used by religious conservatives and these reports are showing up in recent media articles. Also the infobox line for religion doesn't have to specifically describe a particular religion. Atheism would be fine for that field because it only has a religious context. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, Shiftchange, in that she is clearly an atheist. But since Atheism isn't a religion it doesn't really belong there in the religion slot unqualified. I have added (atheist) to the religion slot in infobox in line with David Miliband and other similar articles. The long discussion and consensus-making that the editors of that article had before putting that in the infobox religion slot is a compelling reason to do it here too. Donama (talk) 03:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

How about just inserting an inline note with her direct quote? I think it is best not to use labels.  Davtra  ^(talk) 04:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes it's a label, but it's a useful one and surprisingly specific. It's only because there's odium associated with the word that we're tentative about using it. From a truly neutral perspective these considerations should not matter so long as it's true and verified by good quality references, which it is. Donama (talk) 04:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Why the compulsion to feed this infobox field. It was created by someone else, probably in another country, where religion is significant to office. It isn't here. Gillard has other blank fields in her infobox, such as nickname and date of death. Why? Because they do not exist. For her, religion does not exist either. So we should leave it blank, not just apply terms that have never passed her lips and which just seem "convenient" to make some kind of point. WWGB (talk) 04:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WWGB, Julia Gillard doesn't seem to have ever described hereself as an atheist, but she has said that she's an agnostic. Thus if we were to go with a label, agnostic seems like the best bet. However, leaving the label out or just saying "none" seems to best describe the quotes she has made in recent months. - Bilby (talk) 04:56, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought we were struggling to find a Gillard quote about her agnosticism. Others have described her that way, but has she? If so, I'd be more likely to accept an infobox entry. WWGB (talk) 05:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

She said "I don't believe in God" which across the English-speaking world means atheist, not agnostic or semi-religious. It's not any interpretation on my part at all, just literally what's she's indicated. Donama (talk) 05:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes Donama, there IS odium associated with the word atheist, particularly among obsessive, fundamentalist Christians. They want the word there to reinforce their brainwashed view that she is evil. We should not feed that obsession. HiLo48 (talk) 05:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

In regard to the sources, it's a bit iffy, so I've always prefered "none" to agnostic. However, in The Leader in 2007 she was directly quoted as saying she was agnostic, with "I was brought up Baptist but now I'm agnostic". Earlier in an interview in 2005 for a number of papers she was indirectly quoted in the Sunday Herald Sun with "In an exclusive interview with the Sunday Herald Sun, Ms Gillard, who is the Member for Lalor, in Melbourne's west, said she was single and did not plan to have children. She describes herself as an agnostic, but believes strongly in Judeo-Christian values." (The "exclusive" is a bit iffy, so the same descripition is included in a couple of other papers). More recently, in July Christopher Pyne stated that Gillard is "apparently describing herself as an agnostic", and that can be sourced to The Courier Mail. However, that's certainly not ideal - I'm not really inclined to go with Pyne either way, and I'd prefer something direct from Gillard. :) I couldn't find anything where she said that she was an atheist, but I should probably see if anything has emerged recently. - Bilby (talk) 06:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no point "going with" agnostic or atheist for the Religion entry. Neither is a religion. Either use "None", or more preferably, just don't use that field. As already noted, the religion of elected people is less of an issue in Australia than almost anywhere else in the world. Let's not be driven by a crappy Infobox structure. HiLo48 (talk) 06:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you all trying to get this into Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars or what? --Surturz (talk) 07:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

No just trying to get the article to convey important and accurate information about the person. Last night on ABC's Q&A she was called a self-described atheist to her face and she made no indication that this was false nor attempted to correct this description. It is obviously true that she is an atheist and this is related to an absence of a faith in religion and that this should be mentioned in the infobox religion field as it is significant. I have no idea why anyone would object to this. Whether some group has a problem with this term is completely incidental as is the perceived important of someone's faith in Australia or whether other infobox fields are empty too. - Shiftchange (talk) 00:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

She may well be an atheist, as I am, but atheism is still not a religion, so "none" is the best answer to the question "religion?". --Bduke (Discussion) 01:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The fact that she did not deny it is not the same as her using the term for herself. Gillard is clearly avoiding the use of that term for herself, and until she unequivocally describes herself as an atheist, we should take her at her word and leave it as "Religion: none".  -- Lear's Fool 01:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree with that, Bduke, but in deference to helping out the international spectrum of reader why it is not okay to follow the convention used in other politician articles and follow None with (Atheist) which is of course another way of saying 'no religion'. For examples of other politician articles that follow the convention see:

* David Miliband (UK Labor, toute as future PM)

* Chloe Smith (UK Conservative whip)

* Ayaan Hirsi Ali (former Dutch VVD party parliamentarian)

* Pete Stark (Californian member of USA house of reps)

although I admit there's little consistency on the matter. Loads of atheists simply have the word 'Atheist' in the religion slot, which I think is worse. Donama (talk) 02:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if she says she is an Atheist is still doesn't belong in the religion box as it isn't a religion.CanberraBulldog (talk) 01:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Miliband, for example, said "I'm an atheist. I say that. I'm not a person of faith myself." Gillard has made no similar declaration of atheism. WWGB (talk) 02:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Why is a self-declaration using the word 'atheist' a requirement for it to be a fact? Donama (talk) 02:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's keep it simple. If she labels herself as an atheist, it can go into the Religion field. If not, don't add it.  Davtra  ^(talk) 02:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

It's the insistence on A SLOT at all that I find ideological and NPOV. Tony (talk) 04:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Let’s recapitulate. The original argument is not to add atheism into the religion slot because atheism isn’t a religion. The next argument is that Gillard has never used that term and it shouldn’t be used in the article. My comment was addressing the latter. It has already been a month and editors are still arguing whether to add atheism into the slot or use the term. I don’t think an agreement will be made so best to leave the slot as it is (or remove it).  Davtra  ^(talk) 05:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I say bin it, and bin the argument with it. Tony (talk) 05:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I say delete the Religion tag tooCanberraBulldog (talk) 06:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Would be quite happy to remove it altogether. Will need patrolling to keep it out though I'm afraid. Donama (talk) 07:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea, Donama. Tony (talk) 10:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Bin it. Scrap it. Delete it. Forever. And don't worry, I'll be patrolling! HiLo48 (talk) 11:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't particularly care, but I reckon if there's coverage of her religious status in the article, then it should warrant a quick mention in the infobox. The fact that she is not religious is an interesting piece of information that has (rightly or wrongly) played it's part in the public dialogue regarding her Prime Ministership. Still, I'm not hugely bothered either way.  -- Lear's Fool 12:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, remove the religion component of JG's infobox. Timeshift (talk) 22:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

She has said in interviews, point blank, "I don't believe in God". That makes her, ipso facto, an atheist, by definition. Kwertii (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

...or an agnostic, Pantheist, Polytheist... Basically she doesn't believe in "God". She may or may not believe in a god or gods or have no opinion. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Atheist \A"the*ist\, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god:

cf. F. ath['e]iste.] 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. [1913 Webster]

Pantheists and polytheists do believe in God, they just have a rather different idea of what "God" is (hence the "theist" in the word. One who says "I don't believe in God" has met the dictionary definition of an "atheist" as quoted above.. Kwertii (talk) 04:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Another cite: "HOST: Do you believe in God? GILLARD: No, I don't, John." [1] That seems crystal clear to me. She didn't say "I believe God is everything and everywhere," thus she is not a pantheist. She didn't say "I believe in many gods," thus she is not a polytheist. She didn't say "I don't know if there is a God," thus, she is not an agnostic. She didn't say "I have no opinion." She said, directly, that she does not believe in God. Therefore she is an atheist, by definition. Kwertii (talk) 04:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I happen to agree with you Kwertii. Other editors overruled though, on the basis that the term "atheist" is odious and/or presumptious and that "not religious" is more neutral and suited to the modern day, especially in the context of Australian culture, which was the context of Gillard's statement that she doesn't believe in God. Doesn't alter the fact that she is an atheist of course, but I'm happy to use the term "not religious" in the article. Donama (talk) 05:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Been thinking about this a lot. There is no doubt that the word atheist has already been used about Gillard in a condemning way by some, and they would want it in the article to show how nasty she is. That makes it a POV word. However, now that she is properly in the job, I think it will depend a lot on how she goes. If she is successful, the fact that she is a non-believer may become a positive addition, in the sense that fans of atheism may want to say "Look, our popular PM is an atheist." That happened a bit with Bob Hawke. Unfortunately, that's still a POV usage. Atheist is a tricky word. Shortcuts like this often are. That's why I'm totally comfortable for the article to contain quite lengthy transcripts of what she has said herself about her religious position, but I find it problematic when it is summarised to a one-word label, assigned by others, in the infobox. It's not a simple issue. One word is not enough. HiLo48 (talk) 06:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

---

sydney morning herald quotes ABC interview in which JG says she doesn't believe in God: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/pm-tells-it-as-she-sees-it-on-the-god-issue-20100629-zjad.html assuming that this is accurate (not a given,granted) that answers the question, yes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitelaughter (talk • contribs) 12:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

What question? HiLo48 (talk) 19:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Whitelaughter, we were aware of these statements by Gillard before this discussion was started. Donama (talk) 00:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

---

I don't want to add anything to this discussion topic, but let interested editors know about the discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Atheist categories which was stimulated by UK Labor leader Ed Miliband (possible future British PM) stating he doesn't believe in God in the same way Julia stated it. Donama (talk) 02:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Taking stock of this article

So, colleagues, where are we at in terms of the sudden need to upgrade this article? If users might identify any remaining weaknesses, it would be most helpful for knowing where to allocate our editorial resources. Tony (talk) 08:29, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

"Nye Bevan remains one of her political heroes" is jammed in the "Early life" section, and is not mentioned elsewhere. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The lead needs to summarise the sections below. One or two more photos would be nice. A little more background and detail in the Opposition member and Deputy PM sections could probably be found as there are too many short paragraphs. That is what I would do to improve this article. - Shiftchange (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

We might want a more current, nicer photo of our prime minister. Julia Gillard is quite the beautiful lady. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinophile21992 (talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If you can find a free image, be our guest. But they are extremely hard to find. Timeshift (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a cohort of editors obsessed with Julia's lack of religion. Many times in the first few days of her prime ministership, and now probably every couple of days, someone adds something about it to the article, typically describing her as an atheist, although she has never called herself one. I'm wondering if it's possible or practical to add comments to appropriate parts of the article pointing out to potential editors that her religious status is settled, is not an issue, and is not to be altered, unless new evidence arises. HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to add an editorial note to this effect now. Tony (talk) 08:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Nice move. That should help. HiLo48 (talk) 12:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Re-added election links

"Labor came to power at the 2007 federal election, Gillard has indicated that the next federal election will be held by the end of the year." - I think it's important to have this in the lead. Timeshift (talk) 07:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Election speculation in the lead

I'm not comfortable with it being there.

It's based entirely on a statement by a politician, said no doubt with political gain in mind, and carrying no guarantee of it being true, ESPECIALLY since i came from a politician. I will even agree that it seems likely at the moment, but that too is speculation, not something Wikipedia should be dabbling in.

The same evidence has been used to change the name of Australian federal election, 2010, adding the 2010, when legally the election can be held any time until April next year.

All of this is simply showing an obsession with the election from some editors, which really is a POV position. This article is about Gillard, not the next election. Once it has been called, a simple entry to that effect will suffice in this article. HiLo48 (talk) 07:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but I fail to see the issue. This could be the one statement by a politician that actually matters - the PM saying the election will be held this year which means she will go to the GG to disolve parliament this year. She has said the election will be held in 2010, she's the one who gets to choose. The wording I believe is very neutral. She's PM, the election is coming, the 2010 election should have a link in the lead. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise. There is no "obsession" with elections, but elections do actually decide which party forms government and who becomes PM, and she controls when the election will be held. It's not rocket science - nor POV. I would have thought it basic info to indicate when the next election for an incumbent PM is? Timeshift (talk) 08:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

My apologies. POV is probably the wrong expression. It's more a matter of too much weight on one matter, and an absolute belief by you in what a politician has said. You say "... she will go to the GG to disolve parliament this year", but the only "concrete" evidence for that is a politician's word. That is no guarantee at all. It is speculation. I'm 100% certain that Wikipedia policy would not support accepting a politician's word on when something will happen in the future. Why not simply reflect what definitely IS the truth - that the election must happen by April next year? HiLo48 (talk) 08:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Because I fail to see the issue if everyone knows that the person responsible for choosing the date has given everyone a timeframe...? If it's not going to be held in 2011 then why give readers an impression it may? Timeshift (talk) 08:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

But it still CAN be held in 2011. Gillard is under no formal obligation to keep her word. You are simply using her word to support your speculation that it will occur in 2010. There is really little point in doing that. Let's just stick to facts. HiLo48 (talk) 08:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

And it says precicesly that in the opening of the next election article (now renamed 2010 not by my doing). But as far as Gillard is concerned, the next election is in 2010. Can't we just avoid trivialities? Timeshift (talk) 08:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

←(e.c.)She has announced it will be this year, and it would be political suicide for her to break that. Under the circumstances, I think it's OK to link to the article on the 2010 election: it is, for all purposes, a "fact". Tony (talk) 08:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The "political suicide" bit may be true, but again, it's speculation. Not Wikipedia's job. Oh well, I've said my piece. I'll await others' thoughts and see who else trusts politicians more than I do. HiLo48 (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not about trust or lack thereof. It's about our policy of not speculating. I agree that until the election is actually called, then technically we're speculating it will be held this year. I wasn't all that happy about the next election article being changed prematurely - or what I considered prematurely - but nobody seemed interested in discussing my objections, so I had to just shut up and move on. Since then, the political caravan has moved on, and we now have the GG changing her plans to be available should Gillard wish to pay her a visit in the next few days. In the light of these developments, it would be taking purism to a new extreme to demand we not speculate about the election being held in 2010. So let's not do that. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

It is significant & important, but being in the lead paras of an article about "Julia Gillard" is my concern.

BTW - It's a bad sentence. ... "Labor came to power at the 2007 federal election, Gillard has indicated that the next federal election will be held by the end of 2010." Cablehorn (talk) 01:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Comma splice now fixed. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Timeshift - I note you have now had to re-add the bit in the lead about the election several times. Does this not suggest to you that there may not be consensus on this matter? Note that re-presenting your arguments on the matter is NOT a response to this comment of mine. MY point is that we obviously don't have consensus. I would suggest that there never has been. How determined are you to keeping working against consensus? HiLo48 (talk) 02:08, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with HiLo48, Cablehorn and JackofOz - it's important to have the next federal election in this article but not in the lead. This article is about Julia Gillard and not the next election. Do we put in Tony Abbott's bio that is next bike ride will be held this year? NO! I believe it should be in the article somewhere like in her PM section or links but not in the main lead - it just doesn't fit. The main lead is about Gillard and then it suddenly ends with the next election - which can be held anytime until April 2011 - wouldn't be the first and the last time a politician misleads the public.

Seeing we can't agree - should we not vote where it foes or something like that? CanberraBulldog (talk) 02:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)CanberraBulldog

It's obvious you aren't genuine if you're comparing bike riding to an election. Timeshift (talk) 02:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Just pointing out how silly it is to have speculation about something that may take 9 months to happen. I didn't think speculation was meant to be in a Wikipedia article - I thought it had to be fact, past tense or current tense, not future tense?!?! CanberraBulldog (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Just checked the articles for several other elected world leaders. Not a mention of the next election in any of them. We have a Gillard election obsessed editor in action here. HiLo48 (talk) 02:41, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead

I have re-written the lead: I didn't feel like the old one fully summarised the contents of the article. I think this one does it better, but the prose is pretty clunky and could probably do with a copy-edit. Thoughts?  -- Lear's Fool 04:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I've YET AGAIN re-added the next election link per discussion above. Eventually dissidents will just accept they will not get their way on this one :) Timeshift (talk) 04:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to miss that bit. I've added the reference from before, hope that's satisfactory!  -- Lear's Fool 04:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou! By the way, congrats to Gillard on being Australia's first deputy PM! Timeshift (talk) 04:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

How embarrassing...  -- Lear's Fool 04:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Weren't there deputy PM's before Gillard? She can't have been the first! 220.253.248.195 (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It was a typo which has long since been corrected. Timeshift (talk) 00:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion on elections

Here. Also a note there that the 2010 election link will be re-added to the lead when the election is announced. Timeshift (talk) 03:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as soon as the election is called it should go straight into the lead. HiLo48 (talk) 04:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou Timeshift (talk) 04:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Partner

'Noticed that Tony Abbott's page features his spouse, yet this one doesn't -- So someone should add it (I can't remember his name, and writing "some hairdresser" seems silly.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.9.205.52 (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

As Julia Gillard is not married, or engaged, her marital status is single.If wikipedia wishes to devolve into charting the relationships of single people it would need another million gig to cover Hollywood, let alone political figures.Does she live with her "partner" ? No.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 13:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Early in the coverage of this relationship, the media talked about him being at her place to do her hair at 5.30am or even 4.30am. Either it's a very close relationship, or he gets up very early and drives over. I'm backing the former. The most sensible guide we have is that both parties seem happy with the media using terms meaning a long term relationship. (Longer than quite a few marriages I've known of.) Let's not try to impose old meanings and values on them. Spouse is fine in the modern Australian context. HiLo48 (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

He is now correctly described in the infobox as her domestic partner. Jim Michael (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

New lead proposal

Based on the FA Barack Obama:

Julia Eileen Gillard (born 29 September 1961) is the 27th and current Prime Minister of Australia. She is the first female to hold the office. Gillard previously served as the Deputy Prime Minister, and Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Education and Social Inclusion, from December 2007 until she resigned after her promotion to Prime Minister in June 2010.

What do you think? Feel free to make changes -- we are a wiki. Alex Douglas (talk) 07:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC) :)

Possibly "woman" instead of "female", which is a bit biological. Perhaps "from 2007 to her promotion to the prime-ministership in June 2010". Tony (talk) 09:27, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Who keeps putting her into a prefabricated "religion" slot?

Full marks to the editors who are reverting this. Perhaps we need to schedule guard duty. Tony (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Julia Gillard Image update

Hello. I have been searching all day for a suitable, free image of Julia Gillard to update the one on this page. I contend that the one hosted at the Socialist Alternative on http://www.sa.org.au/component/content/article/2790-gillards-labor-offers-nothing-for-workers is a fantastic image and should be used. It states at the bottom of SA's site that all content on their pages is licensed under CC Australia 2.5 - and therefore can be used on WP.

One editor has contended that this image is not free as he does not believe that SA took it, but I believe he is wrong, my main evidence is that a Tin Eye search for all similar images on the web, found for the next 72 hours at http://www.tineye.com/search/7a37b10a6f36b01ed60dc0f1633096eb2388c914/?sort=size&order=desc showed no results. I therefore believe that SA do in fact own the image as content on their site, as they state on every page, and therefore would like to change Gillard's main image to this.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions both on the quality of the image (I know its small scale, but it will have to do) and on the copyright situation is more than welcome before I make this change. Thankyou! E.3 (talk) 12:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

There are discussions of this at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#Site clearly states CC license for all content, can we use images hosted on their server? and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Gillard image from Socialist Alternative is free? Doubts.... We really don't need more discussions of the topic. Nick-D (talk) 12:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we can use a free image of Jodie Foster as a fill-in. Or vice-versa.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism - is it time to semi-protect this article?

Given that there is an election on and that the level of vandalism by IP editors is quite large, I suggest that we semi-protect this article. Does anyone object to me doing that? --Bduke (Discussion) 10:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I do. Isn't pending revisions supposed to negate the need? Timeshift (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that semi protection is justified. While pending revisions seems to be working well for low and medium traffic articles, in high traffic articles the constant stream of vandalism being reverted means that changes to the article by established editors don't show up on watchlists as they're drowned out by reverts. This article is currently getting 3000-6000 hits per day, which seems to include more vandals than pending changes works effectively for. Nick-D (talk) 11:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Semi-protection is warranted at least until after the election. WWGB (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

My response seems to have been removed. You make a fair point Nick-D. Timeshift (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure, but I think pending revisions is still being tested on a sample of articles and this is not one of them. I was seeing "pending revisions" flagged on my watch list. --Bduke (Discussion) 11:11, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as my view goes, I can see 'automatically accepted' next to the established editors on this page's history. Timeshift (talk) 11:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I think semi is warranted considering how much activity there is... Timeshift (talk) 22:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

As there now seems to be a consensus, I've semi-protected the article for an indefinite period. Nick-D (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

New photo

I'm not sure if it's actually of any use, but I've just uploaded this photo of Gillard with the US Ambassador on 25 June. It's a pretty ordinary photo of both people and the event it depicts isn't terribly notable. On the other hand, it's the only PD photo we have so far of her as PM. Nick-D (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It's definately of use, but definately not as Gillard's main picture. I've added it to the PM section. Timeshift (talk) 14:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead MkII

I've re-jigged the lead again, mainly the removal of the early life bit which isn't of such top importance that it requires lead space. Timeshift (talk) 14:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I've also removed very questionable wording. Changes here. The lead is now just that, it outlines the subject. Timeshift (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me.  -- Lear's Fool 01:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yep, definite improvement. Well done TS9. --Surturz (talk) 06:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it's great, apart from after Kevin Rudd stood aside I don't believe it fully reflects the nature of her coming to power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.91.227 (talk) 08:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"The nature"? What precisely do you describe is "the nature" of her coming to power, using WP:RS? Timeshift (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added "lost the support of his party". Timeshift (talk) 16:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the bit about Kevin Rudd standing aside does not properly reflect that he did that after she announced a challenge for the Labor leadership (even with "after he lost support of his party" it seems misleading by omission.) It's lastingly significant that she challenged him for the leadership, and then he stepped aside for her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.10.134 (talk) 09:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Jimmywhite20, 3 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please change "She was also formerly the secretary of the left-wing organisation, Socialist Forum." to "She was also formerly the secretary of the left-wing organisation, Socialist Forum - a vehicle set up for disaffected communists to join the Labor Party. She remained a member of Socialist Forum from 1998-2002, after which the group merged with the Fabian Society." The original text is incomplete.

Source: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/coalition-offers-pensioners-4b-poll-incentives/story-e6frf7l6-1111114702081 Jimmywhite20 (talk) 06:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Stickee (talk) 06:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope the hyphens were changed to the proper en dashes. Tony (talk) 05:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Australian Atheist Category

Julia Gillard has specifically stated she does not believe in God. Why was she removed from the Australian atheists category? Evidence for this can be seen here, http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/pm-tells-it-as-she-sees-it-on-the-god-issue-20100629-zjad.html and here, http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/29/2939879.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Logical Positivist (talk • contribs) 14:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

We've discussed this before, but Gillard has never described herself, as far as anyone can tell, as an atheist as such. She has stated that she is agnostic, but that was a little while back. Some sources are interpreting her statement that way, but as she hasn't made the statement herself it seems safer just to leave it out. We do mention that she doesn't believe in God in the body of the article though. - Bilby (talk) 14:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

As she has stated she does not believe in God, surely that means she is an atheist by definition? And wasn't the previous discussion about whether it was legitimate to put atheist in the religion section of the infobox, not the category?The Logical Positivist (talk) 14:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The previous discussion was partially about that, but it was also about whether it was appropriate to describe her as an atheist in the first place. And as for not believing in God making someone automatically an atheist - agnostics and Scientologists (among others) don't believe in God either, but I doubt they'd be happy being described as atheists. The point is that there is uncertainty over whether it is more accurate to classify Gillard as an agnostic or as an atheist. The media seem to have decided that she's an atheist, but she's actually said nothing to confirm that. Frickeg (talk) 14:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Agnostics can be believers or non-believers. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, rather than belief. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.27.204 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 13 September 2010

I too have not seen any confirmed quote where Gillard uses either of the "A" words to describe herself. Until that time it is not appropriate to apply a category that she has not confirmed. Now, if we had a category for "Lapsed Welsh Baptists Who Don't Believe In God" ..... WWGB (talk) 14:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

1. If she were definitely an atheist would that warrant a category stating such? I'd go with whatever is the general consensus on that, which currently seems to be yes, as can be seen with any other articles about atheists. Donama (talk) 01:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

2. Is she an atheist and do we have reliable sources to back it up? The answer to that is yes because she said "I don't believe in God". It is irrelevant whether she's used the word to describe herself. No one should be getting hung up on that! If woman A says "I have an exclusive sexual preference for women" she doesn't have to use the word lesbian to be one. If man B says "I was was born and live in the Netherlands" he doesn't have to use the word Dutch to be so. Donama (talk) 01:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there a globally accepted definition of atheism?  Davtra  ^(talk) 01:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia states: "Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities." That can be considered universal for Anglophones which is who we target with the English Wikipedia. Donama (talk) 01:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Religion should state "none"

I know that current consensus is to avoid the "religion" field in the Infobox altogether, and although I certainly acknowledge that atheism is not a religion, I think it would be appropriate to add "none" to the field. This is a very relevant piece of information about Gillard, obviously. — CIS ^(talk |stalk) 10:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

That you think it is "obviously" relevant highlights the POV dangers in YOU wanting this information there. It has been quite common in Australia's history for non-religious people to lead the country, along with, I suspect, several who made a pretence of religion in order to attempt to gain votes. It is not an important aspect of most Australians' personas. My impression is that most of those who want the "none" or "atheist" there want it there for political point scoring purposes. I feel very uncomfortable about it being there. Just because such an option exists in the infobox template should not force us to use it. Templates should not rule the world. Back to you. Why is it "very relevant"? HiLo48 (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with CrazyInSane that it is "very relevant" - but I can see a tentative rationale for inclusion of "none". Simply because she has talked about these issues; in my mind that makes it notable (I agree the fact she is leading the country and non-religious is not a particularly notable combination). Religion is, as usual, always going to be a contentious issue - but I think the article has nailed it pretty solidly based on her own discussions of her feeling. Or, in shorter form, it is somewhat notable that she has claimed no religion --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 11:37, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

HiLo48: Me saying that it is "obviously relevant" is not POV-pushing whatsoever. Perhaps it may not be not as relevant as I implied, but that doesn't mean that I'm POV-pushing. I believe it is relevant because it is a notable fact and has been often cited in the media. In fact, my question to you would be, why do you feel "uncomfortable" about it being there, and why should Wikipedia care about your uncomfortableness? It is a fact, it is noted in plenty of news sources relating to Gillard, and Wikipedia is not censored. — CIS ^(talk |stalk) 13:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not notable because most Australians don't care. Those who do care tend to be at the extreme end of religious views. They rarely seem to understand the possible complexities of such positions, and only want it there as a negative about Gillard. THAT'S where POV comes in. We should no pander to those on the extremes. HiLo48 (talk) 21:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

HiLo48, I think you need to step back from this page. Notability is not based on a care factor and it doesn't matter if you think religion is a minor factor in Australian political life. Your demand that a religious statement be forever be stricken from the infobox seems a little extreme. Bilby's contention that there is something dangerous or risky about claiming Gillard is an atheist is nonsense. If it mattered Gillard would of taken the opportunity on a discussion forum on national tv to correct the matter. - Shiftchange (talk) 23:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Red or white wine, straight or gay, left or right side of the bed, believe in God or not. They are all personal choices and they are nobody else's business. WWGB (talk) 00:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that is valid reasoning for leaving it out. It is, rightly or wrongly, considered to be of public interest as to what religion if any a person subscribes. Nevertheless I'm happy to remove the opinionated religion slot altogether as is the status quo. Donama (talk) 01:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

She stated she doesn't have religion, so would adding "None" to that field be the same as leaving it blank? If so, it might as well be left blank? This little field has caused too much trouble. I recommend leaving it alone for now.  Davtra  ^(talk) 01:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Donama says "It is, rightly or wrongly, considered to be of public interest as to what religion if any a person subscribes." That's a pretty weaselish statement. My response to claims like that in articles is to ask "Considered by whom?". Again, I'll say that most Australians don't care. I've already stated my belief that those to whom it is of interest are religiously inclined people who only want it there because, to them, it is a negative statement about Gillard. That makes it deliberately point of view. I ask those who want it there to also say that they think it is a wonderful thing that Gillard is not religious. HiLo48 (talk) 05:29, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not most Australians don't care is not a judgement we should be making, and it is irrelevant anyway. This is a biographical article, not a political one, so whether or not it should be included has nothing to do with the role it has played in her political life. There are a plethora of sources attesting to the fact that she says she is not religious, and as such (so long as we don't give it undue weight, and a small infobox mention certainly doesn't qualify as that) it should be mentioned. There are genuine, biographical reasons for the inclusion of this fact, and they have nothing to do with the personal perspectives of those arguing for its addition.  -- Lear's Fool 05:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That most Australians don't care is totally relevant. It makes the fact non-notable. That some person, years ago, probably in another country, put the option in a template, does not make it compulsory that we use it. HiLo48 (talk) 05:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

First, sorry for making a weaselish statement, but if you ask anyone on the street I think you'll hear it echoed. I think Australians do actually care, anyway. For me personally I want to know that my PM is not going to be affected by typical religious sentiment (eg. will she suddenly start trying to make everyone say the Lord's prayer before anything; will she start making abortion more difficult; will she make life generally more difficult for gay people) so that's how it's relevant, especially to know about someone like Tony Abbot! Still, I agree with getting rid of the infobox religion slot because it can be quite a misleading system of pigeonholing. It makes the statement of atheist a negative one (i.e. "None") rather than a positive one. Donama (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I was just thinking of the possibility of an infobox option called Chronic diseases. Then None would be a positive! HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought this discussion already took place and was closed. I agree with the previous conclusion that there is no need for the religion field in the infobox as is not relevant to what makes her notable, which is her political career. While some will argue that it has some relevance, it certainly doesn't to the extent that it would need to be in the infobox, which is supposed to provide a quick summary. --Elekhh (talk) 06:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It's "not relevant to what makes her notable"??? How absurd! She has made newspaper articles across the globe for being one of the most prominent atheists in high office. Regardless, if this is allegedly not relevant, then be sure to demonstrate your consistency and remove the Religion note from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Rudd, as well. Oh, and then explain how her signature "makes her notable." I'm pretty sure newspaper articles around the world haven't been written about her signature.--Carbonator (talk) 23:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Gillard's lack of religion will probably be notable to three groups of people, very conservative Christian Australian who want to condemn her for not proclaiming herself to be a Christian, enthusiastic atheist Australians who want to claim her for their side, and people from countries like the US where it seems that politicians simply have to appear to be connected strongly to a Christian church simply to succeed. I submit again that most Australians simply don't care. (Realistically, I reckon that reflects the true religious position of most Australians, but that's getting a bit off topic.) Given that the first two groups I mentioned would want the religion bit highlighted for quite POV reasons, and one could probably say the same about the third group, it is a problematic addition.

I agree with you completely that the signature is not notable. It appeared one day among a rash of somewhat more controversial activity and just seems to have stayed. You're the first to challenge it. Shall we remove it? HiLo48 (talk) 00:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

No, like any other image it is informative and breaks up the text. WWGB (talk) 02:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

To whom is it informative, and how? HiLo48 (talk) 03:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Excellent question, HiLo. How is a signature "informative" while noting the PM's stance on religion is NOT informative?? The mind boggles. And why do we need to "break up the text"?--Carbonator (talk) 03:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

"I submit again that most Australians simply don't care." Is this Austrapedia? No, this is an international resource. Her stance on religion made international news. That, by definition, makes it "notable". I also see that you ignored my point about consistency: Namely, if you remove the Religion section from Gillard's article, be sure to do the same with Rudd's article.--Carbonator (talk) 03:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't want to make this Aussie-centric. But how (un)important it is to Australians IS relevant. As I said, I imagine that it is important to people in countries where declaring oneself to be strongly connected with a church seems to be an essential attribute for getting elected. I'm just not sure how to get over the fact that it is used as a weapon in elections, and hence POV. Gillard has made the point that her position is an honest one, and she doesn't want to display any pretence of religion, implying that she believes that other politicians have done just that. I think that's a very important aspect of her position on religion, but ti's impossible to summarise in one or two words in an infobox. The real problem is the demand for such a brief description in the info box. As for Rudd, it was his declared position, but I don't know how sincere he was/is. Again, my concern is with the one word answer. HiLo48 (talk) 03:57, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Carbonator asserts that "Her stance on religion made international news. That, by definition, makes it "notable"." Since the size of her ear lobes also made international news,[2] perhaps we should include those in the infobox too? WWGB (talk) 05:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

If there were an "Earlobe size" field, then your response would indeed be relevant. Alas, no such field exists, which indicates a lack of interest by the readers for such information. However, there are thousands of entries with a "Religion" field, indicating great interest. Why censor such information?--Carbonator (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

My question would be: why censor it? Kevin Rudd "Religion Anglicanism", John Howard "Religion Anglican", Paul Keating "Religion Roman Catholic". Precedent is already set. "None" would be less contentious. Atheist would be more accurate. @HiLo48 Do you not think there could be a political motive behind those that want to keep this under wraps as well?--Anthonzi (talk) 00:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

No, atheist wouldn't be more accurate. Atheism isn't a religion and therefore can't be listed under "Religion." She has no religion, thus the correct answer is "None."--Carbonator (talk) 03:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing is being censored or kept under wraps. There are plenty of words in the article about her position on religion. The problem comes when editors try to draw their own conclusions to put a simple and simplistic one word entry in the infobox. It doesn't help anyone understand Gillard's true position on religion. To be honest, I doubt if the simplistic entries for other PMs tell us much either. They cannot possibly describe anyone's true position. HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course something is being censored. It's a personal characteristic that appears in most encyclopedias --- including Wikipedia --- but strangely not here, for this one person. Suddenly there's a concern for "simplistic entries," a concern not expressed with the Kevin Rudd article or countless of other articles. Quoting: "There are plenty of words in the article about her position on religion." Using that logic, we should remove the Religion indicator ("Catholic") from the Mother Teresa article. After all, "there are plenty of words in the article about her position on religion." To be consistent, we either provide it (when the info is available) or we don't provide it. The "Well, it's not notable for this one particular person" and "That category suddenly doesn't help us understand" arguments are not persuasive.--Carbonator (talk) 03:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Please what I posted more carefully. I did exactly what you claimed I hadn't done. I questioned the use of simplistic entries for other PMs as well. The Mother Teresa example is irrelevant. Her religion was clearly part of her persona. That's not the same for pollies. I personally believe that for many it's simply a facade, a pretence, to convince conservative voters that they are nice religious people, when their behaviour actually suggests otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

So HiLo thinks all politicians are liars when it comes to religion -- putting on a pretence that they are "nice religious people" --- therefore we'll counter their alleged deceit by mentioning their position on religion only in the article proper but NOT in the summary box. Yes, that'll show 'em! Oy. Hey, here's a better idea. Instead of censoring information based on your cynicism (OPINION), it makes much more sense to provide FACTS that are backed up by multiple sources. Btw, what do politicians' alleged ploys to show "they are nice religious people" have to do with Julia Gillard??? She's admitted she's not religious. I really doubt she'll "convince conservative voters" with that admission! Finally, yes, of course the Mother Teresa example is relevant. You said mentioning Gillard's position on religion in the box was unncessary because "There are plenty of words in the article about her position on religion." Well, BY THE SAME TOKEN, there are plenty of words in Mother Teresa's article about her position on religion. Sorry if you don't like your inconsistency revealed. --Carbonator (talk) 18:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

From Carbonator - So, HiLo thinks all politicians are liars when it comes to religion. No. Misrepresentation is never a helpful approach to Discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice try. It wasn't a misrepresentation. It was based directly on your prior statement. Nice attempt to avoid answering the substance of my response, which demonstrated the silliness and inconsistency of your "logic."--Carbonator (talk) 00:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

It's either a misrepresentation, or stupidity or illiteracy on your part. I said "some". You said that I had said "all". You are looking silly. HiLo48 (talk) 12:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

You said "That's not the same for pollies." You didn't say, "That's not the same for some pollies." Why are you lying? Regardless, instead of censoring information based on YOUR opinion about alleged deceit, it makes much more sense to provide FACTS that are backed up by multiple sources. .--Carbonator (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely with your final fifteen words. HiLo48 (talk) 00:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

We don't fill in "Religion" in the infobox for the same reason we don't fill in "Death Place". She has neither. WWGB (talk) 00:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice try. There are many individuals who have no "Religion" field (YET). So they're all atheists? Please. Not having a "Religion" field simply means that it hasn't been filled out yet. Placing "None" in the Religion field provides information to the reader. That's better than not providing information.--Carbonator (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy with a detailed description of what someone has said about their religious status. It generally isn't "None" and generally won't fit in the Infobox. One-worders don't really help. To say "None" is, in fact WP:SYNTHESIS. You are deciding that a number of words used by the subject can be interpreted as one. Not acceptable here. HiLo48 (talk) 12:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

HiLo48 tells us: "One-worders don't really help." Wow, now you're just being stupid. The one word "Catholic" is, of course, helpful. So is the one word "Jewish." You are deciding that one word isn't helpful. Not acceptable here. Anyway, I'm so happy you've given up on the silly claim that the absence of a "Religion" field means the person is nonreligious. That was embarrassing.--Carbonator (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Aftermath of the 2010 election

Now that the elction's over, we need to give this article a complete cleaning up. True, she hasn't resigned yet, but then again, she didn't have an electoral mandate before, and she doesn't have one now. The issues section will have to be shortened and the election 2010 section and it's aftermath should be expanded. Is she in fact, the shortest "non-caretaker" prime minister in Austrailian history?Ericl (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

And what makes you so confident she will not continue as PM, albeit of a minority government? WWGB (talk) 14:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, she's taller than the average for women. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 14:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping you wouldn't say thatEricl (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, people involved in an encyclopedic environment are assumed to use language that means what it says and vice-versa. Let this be a lesson to you.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

What's this crap about no electoral mandate? Australian PMs are never elected by the people. We elect local members. The party with the largest number of members forms government. The leader of that party becomes PM. Leaders can change even though the government doesn't. It has happened many times in Australia's history. HiLo48 (talk) 19:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The "Party" that got the largest number of seats is the Liberal/National coalition. Regardless, the way it was reverted to after my edit implied that she and her party were way ahead and were to get a comfortable majority, which they most certainly did NOT.Ericl (talk)

In a hung parliament, the government is not necessarily formed by the party or coalition with the most seats of their own. It all depends on the cross-benches. This is not the place for prosecuting the case for any side to become the next government. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Can we at least agree that a mention that the election results are still being determined, as a way of tying up an ambiguous loose end until the result is known? Without speculation on what that result may be, per Wikipedia policy? —sroc (talk) 02:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds wise. Can we also agree to discuss it in terms of which party won (or gained power), and which leader thus became Prime MInister? My point in entering this discussion was to emphasise that in the Australian system we do not elect Prime Ministers. Successful parties (or coalitions) do. HiLo48 (talk) 08:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

While you are technically correct, adverts such as "don't risk Abbott" and "do you really know Julia Gillard" suggest that the parties would have voters believe otherwise. WWGB (talk) 09:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

But the truth is out there. Only voters in two electorates would have seen Gillard's or Abbott's names on their ballot papers. And this is an encyclopaedia> We don't have to follow the lead of the parties and the moron mass media. HiLo48 (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't quite work out what the issue is here. Tony (talk) 11:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have added info on the election results to date in the lead and the separate section, by reference to either party/coalition reaching a majority. There are already sufficient reference to both leaders for context, IMHO. This will no doubt be updated in the coming days as more becomes known. However, Wikipedia is not the place to speculate on who may or may not form government; information should only be added if it is reliable, unbiased and well-sourced. It may be best to avoid major revisions until a new government is definitely forms, which may be days away. I think that the text that I have added accurately reflects the situation as it stands, and is certainly sufficient for an article about Gillard (rather than the election specifically, which is covered in a separate article). Of course, anyone who disagrees is free to discuss/edit. —sroc (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Although a hung parliament is almost certain, it is not yet confirmed. Votes are still being counted, and will continue for several days yet. The ABC is now calling Labor 72 seats, Coalition 70 seats, 4 seats in doubt[3]; it is possible (though unlikely) that Labor could pick up those seats and form government outright. Different news outlets have different counts, and some seats that had been counted against one candidate have been retracted and cast back in doubt. Let's not call it a hung parliament until the results are in. Wikipedia is not a place for speculation, however many news sources may speculate: if anything, we might say that "political analysts predict a hung parliament" citing sources that say so, but we cannot state it as a fact yet. —sroc (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm dubious about listing something that is considered in all quarters a certainty. The four seats the ABC has in doubt are Boothby, Denison, Dunkley and Hasluck. I don't know about "predicting" a hung parliament either, because no one is predicting it - everyone is acting as though it were incontrovertible truth. Considering the main page is also saying "hung parliament", I think it's safe to stick with that, especially when the point will be moot anyway (and if Labor does get a majority, we can include that as a subsequent development, since I think most would agree it'd be more than noteworthy to include the days of overwhelming assumption. While Wikipedia should not speculate, we also shouldn't separate ourselves from the mainstream. Find me a commentator who reckons a majority government's possible, and I'll concede the point. Frickeg (talk) 14:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Slim hope for Labor to form government? WWGB (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I readily agree that "everyone is acting as though it were incontrovertible truth", but that doesn't make it so. The article's I've read from the ABC (including the citation) use caution wording such as "might" when referring to the independents having the balance of power. I don't see the harm in saying "almost certainly" here. In the remote event that either side were to win outright, we would have some egg on our face by having stated it as fact, albeit that we won't be the only ones to have misread it. That said, I won't revert and will let others argue the point one way or the other. —sroc (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• "We came out with a 50.2 two-party to a 49.8 in favour of Labor, which shows that we're very likely to have a hung Parliament. It was so close to 50-50 it wasn't funny," said Newspoll chief executive Martin O'Shannessy.[4]
• "The nation's political fate could rest on three sitting independent MPs - Rob Oakeshott, Bob Katter and Tony Windsor." [5]
• "There are 150 members of the House of Representatives, so to have an outright majority one of the parties needs to hold 76 seats. Neither Labor nor the Coalition looks likely to reach that point." [6]

—sroc (talk) 14:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

*cough* (Reverted.) Frickeg (talk) 14:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, it's officially hung. I'm making the edits. —sroc (talk) 12:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Religion

I think having no religion listed is just to score political points. Julia is proud of having no religion, and good on her. Kevin Rudd, John Howard, Paul Keating and Malcolm Fraser all have their respective religions listed in infoboxes. I think we should write None in infoboxEnidblyton11 (talk) 12:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Try reading the massive discussion on this topic above us. WP:CONSENSUS was thoroughly thrashed out. Thanks. Timeshift (talk) 12:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes indeed, Enidblyton. In short, inserting a slot just because a few other politicians may find it convenient to trade on their allegiance to one brand in the supernatural industry is to expose us to charges of POV. Tony (talk)

Yes. In fact, I would add the word claimed in front of allegiance in that post. Although Julia does seem to have been emphasising the honesty of her position, despite the political damage not claiming to be religious may do to her among the religious bigots. Perhaps the articles of all politicians who do claim allegiance to religion should be qualified by highlighting that whatever they claim to be is simply that, a claim. And we know that politicians work very hard on their image, don't we? HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Caretaker PM

Hi all,

I have heard this a lot now - the PM is being referred as the Caretaker PM by a majority of media outlets, is this correct? If so, should we throw it into the article somewhere?

CheersCanberraBulldog (talk) 09:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It looks like it's not going to matter one way or the other by this time tomorrow, but she's still the full PM until someone else is sworn in to replace her. The government is operating under the caretaker conventions, which greatly limit the powers of ministers and the PM, but this is only a convention and isn't legally binding. John Howard was officially the PM for about a week after the 2007 election until Rudd was sworn in to replace him. Nick-D (talk) 10:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I think there are 2 meanings of "caretaker PM":

• (a) someone who's sworn in as PM on the understanding that their tenure is limited - such as Frank Forde in 1945, and John McEwen in 1967. These PMs and their governments are not subject to the Caretaker Conventions, but are limited by political practicalities to maintaining the status quo until the "real" PM is known (which is why they're often not unreasonably but still inaccurately characterised as "acting PM")
• (b) an incumbent PM whose government goes into caretaker mode during an election period and in some cases for a period afterwards, until the result is clear. These PMs and their governments are subject to the Caretaker Conventions, and hence it seems perfectly justifiable to refer to the PM as a "caretaker" during these periods

Malcolm Fraser in 1975 satisfied both meanings simultaneously. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The article will have to be updated either way tomorrow (or whenever a result is declared), but for now, I've added a one-liner to the lead with a link to the relevant article (which deserves a workout at a time when it is certainly justified to call upon it). Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken until the last minute to fit this in! —sroc (talk) 13:27, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Election 2010 v. 2.0?

hi, I was just wondering if anyone knew what would happen if we go to another election, and the same thing were to happen? By which I mean another hung parliament. And what if, hypothetically, this were to continue ad nauseum? Whuld the Goveror General (or possibly the Queen) have to step in and appoint someone PM, or would it turn into some sort of martial law situation, or what? CybergothiChé (talk) 17:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

All the talk of another election before parliament returns has been ill-informed media hype. The path is pretty well defined. A new election may happen down the track (as it always can), but has always been less likely than parliament returning with one party "chosen" by the Governor-General to govern. Only then is the real strength of the government going to be determined. HiLo48 (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I guess it doesn't matter anymore http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/ , but thanks CybergothiChé (talk) 08:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect use of the word defeat

"The 2010 federal election saw the incumbent Gillard Labor government defeat the Abbott Coalition opposition, forming a minority government with the support of an Australian Greens MP and three independent MPs." is incorrect.

The Libreal govenment was not defeated. Since it is a minority governmentm neither side can claim victory....

perhaps Labour staffers should not be writting pages about Labour MPs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.130.240.54 (talk) 01:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The Liberal government was defeated... in 2007. Wishful thinking, eh? --Canley (talk) 01:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Labor defeated the Coalition. Abbott remains leader of the opposition before and after the election, Gillard remains PM before and after the election. This is fact, I suggest you get over unelectable Tony. Timeshift (talk) 01:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Correct, Timeshift. For all the inevitable bleating we're going to have to put up with about illegitimacy, mandates, highest primary vote, highest TPP vote, coalitions, alliances and seats won – if the Opposition cannot pass a motion of no confidence in the Gillard government in the House of Representatives, then they have been defeated in the election. That's it. --Canley (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It's going to be a bumper term of federal government for wikipedia, that's for sure... Timeshift (talk) 01:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Labor defeated the Coalition." Not by itself, and not yet. It requires the support of the Greens and two of the Three Amigos to get a majority in the House of Reps - which still hasn't been tested. Grassynoel (talk) 14:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Who knows what may yet transpire. But as of now, the Governor-General is quite satisfied that Gillard should be permitted to continue leading the government. As of now, Labor has defeated the Coalition. Let me quote myself from Talk:Australian federal election, 2010#Labor Wins: "It's a hair-splitter. Whatever the actual numbers may be, one side (ultimately) gets to be the next government and the other side doesn't - and that's all that really matters in the end. How tenuous the winning party's hold on government may be is not the point here." -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

We are all buried in detail right now. I like to think about how this will end up being summarised in a lot fewer words in 50 years time. I suspect it will be something like "Labor narrowly defeated the Coalition with the help of the Greens". For the speculators out there, the next sentence could say something like either "To everyone's surprise, the new government lasted the full term", or "After only three months, the fragile coalition fell apart and..." It's a defeat, at least for now. Everything else is detail. HiLo48 (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but if there is any problem with that line, wouldn't it be that it implies all 3 independents supported labor? Shouldn't it just say 2? Unless I've got my facts wrong. All I know is that Bob Katter supported liberal, and the other two supported labor. Anoldtreeok (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

You overlooked Andrew Wilkie. WWGB (talk) 13:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Labor defeated the Coalition. Abbott remains leader of the opposition before and after the election, Gillard remains PM before and after the election. This is fact, perhaps those who keep harping on should question why Abbott could *only* gain seats in Queensland. Gillard commands a majority support of MPs in the lower house prior to and after the election, therefore she will be able to defeat any motions of no confidence, therefore she has defeated the Coalition. If anyone wishes to say otherwise, they will need to form WP:CONSENSUS on this talk page first per standard wikipedia policies. Until such time as WP:CONSENSUS is formed, take this as a notice that any edits in this area will be reverted without hestitation. Thankyou kindly. Timeshift (talk) 16:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

And take it as notice that you will also be subject to reverting without hesitation if you do not have consensus for the contention that Labor "defeated" the Coalition at the election. Afterwriting (talk) 16:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

You are wishing to deviate from the status quo. For this, you require WP:CONSENSUS. Of all the regular contributors above, *all* agree that it is correct that Gillard defeated Abbott. It is incumbent upon the person wanting something to change for new consensus to be formed. If you continue to edit war you will be banned from wikipedia. Timeshift (talk) 16:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has started to awaken memories of a past federal party leader in Australia (1980s?), who insisted for some time after an election that he hadn't lost. Problem was, he wasn't in government. It all began to look pretty silly pretty soon, and he gave up on that line, the media gave up, and history now sees it as a defeat. Let's not waste time on this issue. The party providing the PM is the winner.

Yes, that was Billy Snedden. After the 1974 election, he took the rather confusing stance that, while the Libs didn't win, they didn't lose either, and that that somehow diminished Labor's win in a way he never quite got around to explaining. He lasted less than a year after that; Malcolm Fraser took over, and the rest is history. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Jack. Yep. That was it. I never did understand his position. HiLo48 (talk) 23:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Neither did anyone else. He took the secret to his grave. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Marital status

Why is this important enough to deserve a mention in the lead? Nothing to do with pereceptions of her due to her sex, I hope. 86.147.163.85 (talk) 08:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm in total agreement with you that it doesn't belong in the lead. One does have to question the motives or perspective of those who are determined that things like this do matter that much. HiLo48 (talk) 08:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I wondered about this too. I really think this isn't appropriate for the lead as it doesn't relate to the reasons why she's notable. After all, there are loads of unmarried, childless women. It really only belongs in the personal section unless it becomes related to some event that affects her activity/notability as PM. What do others think? Donama (talk) 01:05, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Frickeg (talk) 03:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Signature in the infobox. Why?

Well? HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

PM's new signature says it all WWGB (talk) 08:20, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

While it's part of the template, I agree that it's completely pointless and achieves nothing other than adding visual clutter to what's already the most crowded part of the article. I'm all for removing it. Nick-D (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Good luck getting consensus to remove the signature from every Prime Minister's infobox. Until that is achieved, you are just cherry picking. WWGB (talk) 10:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

But why is it there? "Because it's how we always do it" is pretty much the worst possible answer IMHO. (I like challenging the status quo.) HiLo48 (talk) 10:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd support removing it from all the articles on PMs. It's pretty pointless. Nick-D (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Right. I shall start with this one. HiLo48 (talk) 05:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

and I revert as there is no consensus. Take it to someone like Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board for real consensus, rather than cherry-picking one PM on the strength of 3 !votes. WWGB (talk) 05:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Because it's how we always do it :D Seriously, how is this not an appropriate answer? Because it's how we always do it is an excellent reason, unless consensus says otherwise. This is the key. People are perfectly entitled to challenge the status quo... but this is done via discussion, not unilateral edits without discussion. Timeshift (talk) 06:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh come on. You're a smarter person than that. That's a discussion right above these very words. Give me a real reason to include it. Not a statement of what we "always do". There's a Wikipedia term (which I cannot recall right now) for using Wikipedia rules and guidelines inappropriately. This is a classic example. If no-one here can give a reason other than "we always do it that way", my respect for some of you has slipped a lot. I will go to Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Thanks for the suggestion. HiLo48 (talk) 06:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

What is hard to comprehend about this simple wikipedia rule? Consensus is required to change from the status quo. As yet there is no consensus... not even close. You're acting as though i'm required to justify the status quo. No. You are required to justify changing from the status quo, and in the process, gain a WP:CONSENSUS. My vote is in. Timeshift (talk) 06:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Consensus does not require unanimity. Crank votes are allowed to be ignored. (Not that I'm suggesting.....) Anyway, it's at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board now. Answer my question challenging the status quo there. HiLo48 (talk) 06:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

To change from the status quo (signatures for government leaders are standard on wikipedia) also requires a consensus far beyond a 30 minute three to one vote. I'm glad to see it's gone to the notice board for discussion. Until such time as WP:CONSENSUS is formed, the status quo shall remain. And I must say, there is a truly fascinating revelation that's just occurred on the notice board. If you want to argue against that and do the hard yards to attempt to get it removed... go for your life! I won't get in the way =) Timeshift (talk) 06:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent. I left the discussion open for over a week. Still no reason given for including signatures. HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

"Signature in the infobox. Why?" - What a strange topic. "Why do birds - suddenly appear - everytime you are near...?" ..... Her signature is there for much the same reason her picture is there. (1) It personalises the corpus. (2) It's interesting. (3) It adds colour to the article. (4) Heads of state's (I know she is just PM ... - pheeew that could've caused a panic on the page) signatures appear on notable documents. Ummm ... Anyway why do people collect autographs? I seem to remember our Barry Jones is an autograph collector. Why would he do that? - Cablehorn (talk) 07:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes her signature is personal, but "being interesting", "adding colour" and "appearing on official documents" are not encyclopaedic reasons for including an image. In my opinion the status quo is broken there and it's just something not quite irksome enough for most to ever bother about fixing. Since Hilo's made an attempt to shift this I'm making an effort to help out. Timeshift, Cablehorn and WWGB, normally you all make an effort to deal with things logically and in the spirit of Wikipedia as an encyclopaedia rather than entertainment/marketing site. Can you have a serious think about this and then put your comments. Yes, I'm implying that you haven't thought seriously about this yet. Donama (talk) 05:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It's an optional item in the infobox. A decision has to be made to include optional items. I can't see how asking why a decision was made is a strange question. But I do thank you for giving a better reason for including it than "We always do." Your reasons are not reasons I would have paid attention to, and still seem very trivial to me, but I can see that some would be interested. I await others' thoughts with interest now myself. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

If it's not broke don't fix it =) Timeshift (talk) 07:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you take that approach for elections too, no matter who is in power? ;-) HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Huh? I don't object to an Abbott signature if that's what you're inferring. Timeshift (talk) 07:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I think we should get rid of it from infobox or anywhere else in article. More detail on why in comment on WP:AWNB. Hilo's points are also compelling reasons. Donama (talk) 00:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Dumps

The climate change section needs revisionism. I propose adding the following: The first plank in her climate change platform was scrapped on 7 October 2010, with the dumping of the citizens assembly. Instead consensus will be achieved via a committee of politicians representing the ALP and Greens, and the public will be informed via a website. [7] I am concerned that this might be seen as being too gentle on Gillard in its wording - most news articles are somewhat more robust in their approach and I have selected the kindest one I could find from the ABC. --Pete (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I am concerned about the use of words more appropriate in journalism than in an encyclopaedia. These include scrapped, dumping, and (first) plank. The first two are emotionally loaded. The last is just jargon. HiLo48 (talk) 00:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Finding consensus on appropriate wording is what we're all about! --Pete (talk) 00:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

OK. The kind of wording we need is "On 7 October Gillard announced that she no longer planed to create a citizens' assembly to look at climate change, but would instead seek guidance from a panel of ALP and Greens politicians." That language avoids judgemental words (and could probably be further improved). I am certain that many methods will be used to "inform" the public. HiLo48 (talk) 01:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the fact that it was an election promise - hence the use of the word "plank" - needs to be mentioned. We don't need to hold a blowtorch to her head, but we can't let it go unmentioned. According to an ABC webpoll, about 80% of people think it was a pretty sorry policy anyway, so I think she did the right thing to lose it. On 7 October Gillard announced that her pre-election promise to create a citizens' assembly to investigate climate change would not proceed, but she would instead seek guidance from a panel of ALP and Greens politicians. --Pete (talk) 03:10, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep. I told you my words could be further improved! I'd be happy with that. HiLo48 (talk) 03:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It's wrong to say that this is a "a panel of ALP and Greens politicians" as a) its a parliamentary committee, not a 'panel' b) Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott are members of the committee and Gillard has repeatedly invited the Coalition to provide representatives and c) the committee will also be advised by independent experts (it's membership is listed here). Moreover, all the news stories refer to the committee advising the government as a whole, and not just Gillard. Nick-D (talk) 09:10, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we could create an article on the group and link to it, to clarify the precise details of its interfaith workings. A key point is that the Coalition is having nothing to do with it, but if we list the complete makeup, it reads very clunky. --Pete (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikileaks - Too recent, too current

user:ErrantX has just made a minor reduction to the Wikileaks subsection with an Edit summary of "hardly seems relevant detail". I see the whole subsection as being problematic. It seems a classic example of Wikipedia:Recentism. The section headed Political positions only contains six other subsections. To suggest that Gillard's position on Wikileaks is one of her seven most important political issues is just silly. I would suggest that the whole subsection should go. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, yes, my first inclination was to kill most of the section. I'm still debating removing the "open letter" as probable soapboxing. But the rest does not seem to have gathered overly significant coverage; I'd be looking for something a little more in-depth than "she said X". (It might be worth a sentence elsewhere, I haven't looked into that) --Errant ^(chat!) 10:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikileaks/Assange

Please demonstrate via a RS that the detail "with some calling for the founder Julian Assange, an Australian citizen, to be killed" is of significance to Gillard's biography and comments, and not just point pushing. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think these last two sections overlap somewhat. I'm happy if all discussion continues here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Australian spelling

Do we use it? Kittybrewster ☎ 17:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes HiLo48 (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

What else? Welsh, maybe?  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Pro nunciate

Should we have a page regarding her lingo speach? It made a huge appearance when she was running / election —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.11.18.25 (talk) 11:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, find a reliable source that discusses it in a sensible way, and go for it. If no such source exists, take your original research elsewhere. HiLo48 (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh course we should! Plenty of articles over on the internet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.11.14.161 (talk) 01:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Carbon Tax

I think to be fair and impartial that it should me mentioned in the article in the section about the carbon tax that Julia Gillard told Channel 10 news "There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead,". I have noted that the majority of editors on this page are Labor and Gillard supporters but I think that a lie by the Prime Minister of Australia should be noted144.136.101.108 (talk) 11:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Given the current state of the lead, adding that would be an obvious case of undue weight and recentism, to say nothing of the effect it would have on the neutrality of the lead.  -- Lear's Fool 12:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't care who you think I support politically, but given that you are quoting Tony Abbott with that approach, your position is obvious, and not helpful. I will just comment that there is a big difference between a lie and a, sadly, all too common, broken promise from a politician. It's part of the game for almost all players. If we listed every broken promise by every politician we would have no time for anything else. HiLo48 (talk) 19:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I did not mention Tony Abbott. Does that mean I can remove the quote 'never ever' from John Howard's page? Plainly this was a lie not a broken promise. You are now showing your bias. Again.144.136.101.108 (talk) 02:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The distinction matters - a lie would be more along the lines of "I have no plans to announce a carbon tax" if it can be shown that she did have plans to introduce one (although I would imagine that she had no such plans). What she did was promise that she wouldn't introduce a carbon tax, and then went back on the promise. An analogy is that I wouldn't be lying if I said I was going to be home on time tonight, but if I was then unexpectedly held up. I would be lying if I said that I was late because I was busy in the library, when the real reason I was because I went to the pub. Otherwise I generally agree that it shouldn't yet be mentioned in the lead, unless this comes to define her time as PM - which seems unlikely at this stage, but may prove to be the case.- Bilby (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

By all means include Julia Gillard's pre-election statements about a carbon tax/price, but please resist the urge to label them a "lie" or a "broken promise" in the article, or to quote the Leader of the Opposition or media doing so. I don't think any one objects to including referenced quotes or factual statements—despite your apparent assertions of pro-Labor bias amongst editors here. In the example you give, John Howard's "never ever" GST statement, the article merely states "Howard said that he considered the Coalition's defeat in 1993 to be a rejection of the GST, and as a result it would "never ever" be part of Coalition policy."—it doesn't say its a lie, or a broken/"non-core" promise, or even try to hypothesise an effect on opinion polls or elections. It mentions the quote, and what happens afterwards, all properly referenced, and readers can draw their own conclusions. --Canley (talk) 02:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree Canley. What does everyone think about adding just her words and let people make up their own minds? I think this is important becasue the Newspoll has instantly gone down for Labor. This is likely a contributing factor.144.136.101.108 (talk) 02:42, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I think we should wait until a Carbon Tax in one form or another is actually legislated. She hasn't broken her election promise yet, just indicated that she intends to. Furthermore, she hasn't got good form in actually delivering anything. Until proven otherwise, let's assume her incompetence will overpower her dishonesty. In any case, the quote should appear in the body text only, not in the lead. --Surturz (talk) 05:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems controversial and presumptive at the moment to call the announced carbon pricing framework a "Carbon Tax". The link [97] just mentions a price. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strewth11 (talk • contribs) 05:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Thegong21, 30 May 2011

Please add "Wikileaks" heading above the second paragraph below Internet in Positions section as Wikileaks is it's own separate issue Thegong21 (talk) 22:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done as having 1 paragraph per issues seems to fit better with the page layout and there are no guideline issues preventing it, though I feel it might be better if the preceding section was expanded a little, which I re-named 'Internet Controls' but not knowing the issues I am unaware of what the debate was referred to as.--wintonian ^talk 01:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Some humour gone wrong?

As an Aussie, I get the humour in and even LOL'd at "She has a broad Australian accent which is distinctive even among Australian prime ministers." But I have an issue with the sentence being in a Wikipedia article on the grounds that it is in fact not true. How many of our PMs really and truly had "broad Australian accents"? I would suggest that the answer is ... "not many". Old_Wombat (talk) 10:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the coup?

Just doing a bit of research on the bloodless coup that occured when Julia Gillard ejected the democratically elected Prime Minister of Australia. From what I can see, inside Australian media using the word 'coup' was avoided at all costs aside from ABC and SBS media outlets, however outside of Australia a spade was called a spade. Is this some kind of tabboo in Australian culture? If so, can this be justified with Wiki policies on the issue? Pmorphsab (talk) 04:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Erm, it wasn't a 'coup'; it was a leadership challenge. And Prime Ministers aren't 'democratically elected' - they're selected by the members of parliament from the party with the most seats in the House of Representatives. Nick-D (talk) 06:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Per Nick-D. Timeshift (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it was a normal part of the Westminster system, and those outlets "outside of Australia" were possibly in the USA, where they never understand our parliamentary system. Prime Ministers aren't elected by the people. It wasn't a coup, or a spade. HiLo48 (talk) 08:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

Reviewer: Inkheart0123 (talk) 12:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the GA nomination just put up, the fact that the page isn't up to standard is beside the point. IMHO I don't think it's worth the time and energy to attempt to make a GA article on a subject that is constantly prone to change, and subsequent article edits. GAs/FAs tend to be better for historical things that tend to be constant and don't change. My 2c. Timeshift (talk) 14:17, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it is beside the point that the page is constantly changing it is a good article and follows the criteria very well. It should be accepted as a Good Article. - unsigned.

The issue is that every week the article will be disputed as still being GA material. Timeshift (talk) 05:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm really surprised to see that this article was assessed as a GA. It doesn't quote either of the two(?) professionally published biographies of Gillard or draw on the academic articles relevant to her career. As a result, it provides a pretty patchy overview of her. Nick-D (talk) 11:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Something funny is going on here. The reviewer and the passer have no other edits apart from to the article or review. I have asked for an explanation at Timeshift9's talk page regarded some other curious edits and am waiting for a reply. I am going to be bold and delist this for now until a proper review is conducted. AIRcorn (talk) 11:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I am not guilty of anything and was mis-accused, per the response on my talk page. Timeshift (talk) 15:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

It is actually very unusual and suspisious. Upon further review i have realised that this article does not meet the good article criteria as it is very basic and not detailed. I think it should be denied as a good article despite my nomination. --Editor2205 (talk) 00:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Just want to re-clarify in case there is any doubt that Timeshift is innocent of any wrongdoing. As the nominator you can withdraw the nomination at any time. AIRcorn (talk) 00:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Could a user please indicate how the nominator (me: Editor2205) can withdraw the article from the nomination. --Editor2205 (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Article has been withdrawn by the nominator AIRcorn (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)