Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard: Difference between revisions
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==== Summary of dispute by -AntanO ==== |
==== Summary of dispute by -AntanO ==== |
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The result is based on 838 unrelated individuals which is a few samples from 1,869,820 moors. Also, Eastern Moors are Western Moors are not same in terms of culture, language and inter marriage with Sinhalese and Tamil, and the study did not say where were the specimen came from (Eastern Moors / Western Moors). The article says with RS that ''... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil''. It is not about linguistics, and it's about "maternal lineage". Apart from the research, you have to understand the community issue in Sri Lanka. The issue is ethnic conversion. If I start to clarify, it might go for some more paragraphs. Also, read [[Genetic studies on Sinhalese]] which disputes (with RS) the claim that Moors are not most closely related to Sinhalaese and then to Sri Lankan Tamils are most closely related to Sinhalaese. |
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<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div> |
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=== Sri Lankan Moors discussion === |
=== Sri Lankan Moors discussion === |
Revision as of 12:36, 23 September 2021
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Current disputes
God in Islam
Closed. The deletion of the Comparative Theology section appears to have resolved the dispute. If there is any further dispute, such as over whether to restore a similar section, discuss on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Social Democracy
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
A prior consensus (minus 1 user) was reached on the second sentence of the preamble, specifically that its economic ideology is a capitalist mixed economy, not socialism.
This dispute now is over the very first sentence which states the exact opposite (that it is socialism). The first sentence is directly contradictory to the second sentence.
I believe we need clarification on 3 points: 1) That Economic Ideology and Economic Philosophy are synonyms, and are not different. 2) The first sentence directly contradicts the second sentence. 3) Since the second sentence is not in question, the first sentence should be changed to match the second.
Unfortunately most of the talk page with this issue has been archived. Let me know if I need to provide relevant archived discussions or any other additional information.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
[[1]]
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Clarify the 3 points listed
Summary of dispute by Czello
I am surprised this post was made -- Twozerooz, I thought we agreed that an RfC was the best way to resolve this issue?
However, my summary of the issue is simply that there was no consensus to remove "economic philosophy" from the opening sentence, and Erzan was in discussion with OP about this issue, before OP stopped responding. As the the text remained for the next few months, I assumed the issue was resolved -- until OP chose to remove the text again by deceptively labelling it as vandalism.
All I want is for OP to pursue a consensus on the talk page rather than edit warring (something he has been reported to WP:EWN twice for, the second time resulting in a block). This is why I suggested an RfC, and OP agreed to this. Why we've come here instead is rather bizarre. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 15:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Just for clarification Czello: The first sentence was never discussed. But given that the second sentence now has consensus, it seems to follow that the first sentence was simply omitted by error. I think much of the confusion here is in regards to different synonyms being used, so as long as nobody has an issue with it I will make an edit to use the same term for both sentences, then we will go from there. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- It has been like this for almost half a year. 'Economic ideology' and 'economic philosophy' mean the same thing. The reader will be taken to the same page, which is economic ideology so there is no confusion. Erzan (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes agreed, my point 1 is indisputably correct. --Twozerooz (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- It has been like this for almost half a year. 'Economic ideology' and 'economic philosophy' mean the same thing. The reader will be taken to the same page, which is economic ideology so there is no confusion. Erzan (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Just for clarification Czello: The first sentence was never discussed. But given that the second sentence now has consensus, it seems to follow that the first sentence was simply omitted by error. I think much of the confusion here is in regards to different synonyms being used, so as long as nobody has an issue with it I will make an edit to use the same term for both sentences, then we will go from there. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Social Democracy discussion
- Volunteer Note -While some precedent does seem to have been put forth roughly five months ago on the talk page, the discussion between the two parties mentioned here has been very short. Additionally, User:Czello has not been notified on their talk page. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page seems to be agreeing that a Request for Comments is the best way to resolve the questions. An issue should not be discussed in two or more places at the same time, and an RFC takes precedence over discussion at a noticeboard. If the editors want assistance in formulating a neutrally worded RFC, they can request that here. Are the editors requesting moderated discussion (in place of or prior to an RFC), or do they plan on using an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry wasn't aware there was different processes. I haven't initiated any other process yet, so please let me know whether I should do that or any other actions. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Yes, I'm rather confused as to why this post was made after OP agreed an RfC is the best way forward. Given that the original talk page thread had several different discussions going on at once, I think an RfC makes the topic of contention much clearer. I would urge Twozerooz to pursue that route as agreed. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 15:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Twozerooz: The best thing to do is follow the instructions here. As a suggestion for a neutrally-worded question for the RfC, I recommend Should "economic philosophy" be removed from the opening sentence?". — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 15:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Reading the processes, it does actually seem like a dispute resolution is more appropriate given that this is not actually a conflict regarding subject matter. The issue now isn't related to economics at all, but rather just confusion over synonyms and logical contradictions. Any unbiased party should be able to rectify this, regardless of their level of knowledge in economics. An RFC would have been very useful during the first dispute over the second sentence, but that has been resolved already --Twozerooz (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- You know what, I concede. I have no interest in arguing this further. I didn't feel strongly enough the matter the first time round, and it looks like it's just becoming a new edit war -- which is the very thing I was trying to prevent. Erzan appears to have returned this debate, so I'll leave it to him.
Although what, that was before I saw this. It appears consensus may in fact be leaning to leaving it in.— Czello (Please tag me in replies) 17:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)- Valjean was referring to changing the first synonym, as opposed to the second. He was right. I changed the second one to match instead - Valjean thanked me for the edit. And yes, someone canvassed Erzan to bring him in.... --Twozerooz (talk) 20:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- As I've already explained to you, notifying someone who was part of a prior discussion that the discussion has reopened is not canvassing. See WP:APPNOTE. Again, my position on the matter isn't all that strong, so your dispute is with Erzan more than it is with me. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 21:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- From WP:APPNOTE: "but uninvolved"... "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions". Given that Erzan was the subject of the original edit war who had clear and very strong opinions to the contrary - and is someone who has a long history of edit warring - it just seems bizarre that someone would deliberately bring him in in order to "stop an edit war in the first place". Regardless, the bell cannot be unrung. Tagging in another editor to take your place does not mean the dispute is over; The dispute is still on-going and needs to be resolved. --Twozerooz (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- You know what, you're right. I didn't notice the "but uninvolved" part. Given the nature of your reversion on this, where you incorrectly labeled it as vandalism, I felt it appropriate to notify someone who was part of the debate. However, if I have misread the boundaries of WP:APPNOTE then I have erred and apologise. I do wish we'd had and RfC on this, but whatever -- I hope your other post resolves this. I worry that page is becoming a WP:BATTLEGROUND so I might just remove it from my watchlist. Peace. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 18:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- You're right, I didn't understand what Wiki defined vandalism as so I apologize for that. I still fail to understand how that could justify canvassing other people to push a specific viewpoint. Regardless, this will be my last comment here - I'll let the dispute resolution process continue. --Twozerooz (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- You know what, you're right. I didn't notice the "but uninvolved" part. Given the nature of your reversion on this, where you incorrectly labeled it as vandalism, I felt it appropriate to notify someone who was part of the debate. However, if I have misread the boundaries of WP:APPNOTE then I have erred and apologise. I do wish we'd had and RfC on this, but whatever -- I hope your other post resolves this. I worry that page is becoming a WP:BATTLEGROUND so I might just remove it from my watchlist. Peace. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 18:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- From WP:APPNOTE: "but uninvolved"... "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions". Given that Erzan was the subject of the original edit war who had clear and very strong opinions to the contrary - and is someone who has a long history of edit warring - it just seems bizarre that someone would deliberately bring him in in order to "stop an edit war in the first place". Regardless, the bell cannot be unrung. Tagging in another editor to take your place does not mean the dispute is over; The dispute is still on-going and needs to be resolved. --Twozerooz (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- As I've already explained to you, notifying someone who was part of a prior discussion that the discussion has reopened is not canvassing. See WP:APPNOTE. Again, my position on the matter isn't all that strong, so your dispute is with Erzan more than it is with me. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 21:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Valjean was referring to changing the first synonym, as opposed to the second. He was right. I changed the second one to match instead - Valjean thanked me for the edit. And yes, someone canvassed Erzan to bring him in.... --Twozerooz (talk) 20:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- You know what, I concede. I have no interest in arguing this further. I didn't feel strongly enough the matter the first time round, and it looks like it's just becoming a new edit war -- which is the very thing I was trying to prevent. Erzan appears to have returned this debate, so I'll leave it to him.
- Reading the processes, it does actually seem like a dispute resolution is more appropriate given that this is not actually a conflict regarding subject matter. The issue now isn't related to economics at all, but rather just confusion over synonyms and logical contradictions. Any unbiased party should be able to rectify this, regardless of their level of knowledge in economics. An RFC would have been very useful during the first dispute over the second sentence, but that has been resolved already --Twozerooz (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Social democracy)
I am willing to act as the moderator. I will ask the editors to read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements may make the author feel better, but they seldom clarify the issues. I am neutral, except that one way to get me to be non-neutral is to ignore the rules that I set forth. Do not respond to each other's statements, except in the section for back-and-forth discussion (which I have the right to ignore). Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors.
It appears that there is some discussion of whether an RFC is needed, or whether moderated discussion is needed, or perhaps moderated discussion that decides the content of an RFC.
The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, so Be Specific at DRN. I will ask each editor to make a one-paragraph statement as to what they want added to or removed from the article, or left alone in the article when someone else wants to change it. Then I will decide how to proceed further. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Social democracy)
Change
- Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within the socialist tradition.
to
- Social democracy is a political and social philosophy within the socialist tradition.
Reasons were already given above. It looks like everyone understands economic philosophy and economic ideology are synonyms (#1 above). So only #2 and #3 need moderation. For reference, the 'second sentence' that everyone has already agreed to is:
"As an economic ideology and policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Bolded to highlight the contradictions between first and second sentence.
--Twozerooz (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Social democracy)
One editor has responded, and has said to take out the phrase 'economic philosophy' from the lede sentence. Does the other editor agree, or will an RFC be needed?
They also referred to second and third points needing moderation, and they gave one example.
The other editor has not responded yet, so I will ask them again to state concisely what they want changed, or what they want left the same that other editors want changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- I presume this is directed at me -- as stated above I concede on the matter; judging by the edit history of the article, I think OP's dispute is with Erzan, still. OP did have a dispute resolution case involving Erzan open but he appears to have closed it. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 09:08, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Social democracy)
Back-and-forth discussion (Social democracy)
Sri Lankan Moors
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
User disagrees on the addition on research data involving x-str claiming contradiction. Does not provide sources or data for the so-called contradiction but uses selected sentences from wikipedia articles and goes on unrelated issues such as linguistics. Argues that because sample size not including the entire population size and using unrelated individuals in research and normal things as reasons for removal. The argument goes in circles and the user refuses to allow it to be added.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Sri_Lankan_Moors#Removal_of_X-SRT
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
At least get User:AntanO to provide the sources and data of the contradictions so they can be added if not disengage the argument and allow the research data on genetic relations to be added.
Summary of dispute by -AntanO
The result is based on 838 unrelated individuals which is a few samples from 1,869,820 moors. Also, Eastern Moors are Western Moors are not same in terms of culture, language and inter marriage with Sinhalese and Tamil, and the study did not say where were the specimen came from (Eastern Moors / Western Moors). The article says with RS that ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil. It is not about linguistics, and it's about "maternal lineage". Apart from the research, you have to understand the community issue in Sri Lanka. The issue is ethnic conversion. If I start to clarify, it might go for some more paragraphs. Also, read Genetic studies on Sinhalese which disputes (with RS) the claim that Moors are not most closely related to Sinhalaese and then to Sri Lankan Tamils are most closely related to Sinhalaese.
Sri Lankan Moors discussion
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:27, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - Sometimes the genetic markers are being referred to as STRs, and sometimes as SRTs. Since the full term is short tandem repeat markers, they are STRs. (This does not affect the fact that there is a content dispute.) Robert McClenon (talk) 05:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry I added in the article talk page and forgot to add in the user talk page. Its done now. Thank you- UmdP 05:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)