User talk:Dennis Brown: Difference between revisions

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Get stuffed

	Happy Thanksgiving
	A big thank you from me to you. little green rosetta(talk) central scrutinizer 05:06, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So far, so good. much of the family is here in Texas. The hotel should be sued for false advertisement though, its a bit of a hole, and the internet wifi is literally slower than dial-up. I would go find a hot spot but nothing is open so i wont be able to get onwiki much.. This is also the fist time Ive used an iPad...not bad but odd for a pc guy. Glad I came. Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday. Pharmboy (alt. of Dennis Brown) 12:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just got back from watching the new James Bond movie, Skyfall...long but quite good. Went with a sister and brother whom I only get to see once a year, which made it better. Another sister texted us, shopping at the early Black Friday sales at Target, they had to call the police in to manage the crowds. Yes, I will be avoiding all shops tomorrow...there is nothing I could want worth dealing with kind of chaos. Time for a cup of tea and some sleep. Pharmboy (alt. of Dennis Brown) 04:10, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you're one up on me: I still have to see Skyfall. We're back from being gone, and while it was fine, it's also nice to be home again. Hope you had a great trip, and drive safely. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I saw it...other than the half hour of previews before you get to see the movie it was good. Go Phightins! 04:22, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I want to see it so bad - haven't got to it though. Vacation^nine 04:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- Skyfall was somewhat dissapointing. Seemed like a lot of character development to get you used to new actors taking on old Bond roles. little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer 00:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - But you got the backstory, and this time, it was personal. Not the perfect Bond movie, but well worth the 9 bucks spent, at least to me. But then again, I'm the perpetual optimist that tries to find the good in all things. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Seeing the movie may have been worth nine bucks, but the medium popcorn and small soda was not worth the 11 bucks. Good grief! Go Phightins! 00:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - USD9? Gosh, with that and your incredibly cheap gas, I'd be tempted to move over. But then I think of wall-to-wall MickyD-type places and my beloved NHS, without which I'd have been dead on quite a few occasions. Nah, I'll stick here, converse with the nice Yanks in writing and watch the movie when it hits the TV schedules. Provided the NHS keeps doing its job on me, of course! Hope y'all enjoyed your break: now get back to fixing the project ;) - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        We saw it. I thought there was a lot of filler but the last 30 minutes was good. We spent $24 on two hot dogs, two large sodas and a large popcorn with a refill....that we had eaten before the first ten minutes of the film. LOL! I enjoyed Lincoln more.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Good to see you, it's been a while. I've been curious about Lincoln, which I just saw that IMDB gave an 8.4, extraordinarily high. I guess I should drag the wife out to see that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I found myself taking a little Wiki break when I had stuff to do around the house to prepare for a coming winter storm and the holiday prep. I usually fall of the net entirely around November and find my way back around January or Febuary. Lincoln was worth the price! But you may need a bank loan for the popcorn. LOL!--Amadscientist (talk) 07:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Dennis, I'd strongly encourage you to see Lincoln. I agree with Amadscientist, it's better than Skyfall. Go Phightins! 02:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        We just rented Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter tonight. It was kinda fun after the more serious film. LOL! Funny thing. I kept saying how much the actor looked like Liam Neeson....turns out , while he is not related....he did play the young Alfred Kinsey in the film "Kinsey". THat made me laugh....not sure why.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:56, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Curious about some new articles

I keep an eye on the new articles pages to watch for North Carolina-related articles and found a curious issue. Don't really know where to go with this. Today, it looks like someone is creating a bunch of what I would call non-notable articles (which in and of itself isn't too big a problem). The articles are not well made (bad formatting, using WP:SYNTH and including a lot of extraneous info), but the main issue I have is that they are supposedly created by multiple users editing in exactly the same way. If it was just one user account, I could leave a message discussing the articles there. I think, however, these may be the same person using multiple accounts (they edit the same way and have much of the same info). However, if it is a class/student project, then I'd like to leave a message for the coordinator, giving them some info about how to edit on Wikipedia, but have no clue who that would be. Please look into the following articles and their users:

4

I guess I'd have to go through a group AfD for all of these if need be, but wanted to let you know of the bigger issue regarding the user(s) actions. Thank you! -- JoannaSerah (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a class project. I'm not sure who coordinates these here, but they should let us know in advance. If the articles pass CSD, then even sloppy articles are better than none, but it will require a lot of clean up. I will try to find out more when I get home. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True. Looking at it myself more, it does look like a class project. Just not sure why they chose these people to write articles on. I didn't want to bite newbies. Anyway, it just started to look like socking at first. I'm going to go ahead and add welcome messages to the users' talk pages. Maybe that can help some. They might be good editors for the NC WikiProject. Thank you for your help. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 20:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) The common thread appears to be these folks were interviewed by the Federal Writers Project. You might want to ask editors over there if they know what's going on. Garamond Lethe 22:22, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Federal Writers' Project isn't a WikiProject, it no longer exists but was a (United States government) Federal public works project under Federal sponsorship from 1935 t0 1939 and then under sponsorship of the individual states until 1943. But yeah, looks like a class project or some such. I looked through a few of the articles and their subjects didn't really look at all notable. Shearonink (talk) 23:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked through about half of the articles listed here and in my opinion none of the subjects so far have been notable. The one thing I can find in common is that all the interviews seem to be listed in the University of North Carolina's Digital Collections - there are over 1000 interviews listed in the Federal Writers Project collection, here. In looking at the articles, it seems that the writers might have had the assignment of verifying the FWP interviews as history with too much of every article text being concerned with assessing the FWP, instead of writing about the asserted subject. Shearonink (talk) 00:04, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someone should just ask a few of them if they are part of a project, so we can contact the leader/teacher. I don't want to get AfD happy too quickly and discourage them. I would rather sit on marginal articles a few days than ruin the spirts of a bunch of potential quality editors. I'm a bit tied tonight, but if we can find the teacher, I can contact and discuss with them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pick a few articles & their creators' names at random and post on the editors' talkpages, see what the response is. Shearonink (talk) 00:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've also noticed that a common source (at least on 3 of the articles I've been able to check, is a 1977 article by Thomas Soapes, "The Federal Writers' Project Slave Interviews: Useful Data or Misleading Source." The Oral History Review 5 (1977): 33-38. JSTOR. Web. 13 Nov. 2012 JSTOR link here. Shearonink (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've left 'Welcome and a question' notes on four of the creating-editors: User talk:Kevinkelleher12, User talk:Codycj, User talk:Cmclean99, and User talk:Karebearayka. Shearonink (talk) 00:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the initiative here. I think that handling this calmly and slowly is definitely the best way. I don't think anyone is trying to do anything wrong here, they are just not familiar with our notability guidelines, and maybe the instructor isn't either. If it is a college project, I would probably get one of my professor friends in the loop, who could probably be more helpful. And of course, thank you Joanna for bringing it here, which was the best option. Hopefully we can find a way to actually help them a bit. If only one of them became regular contributors, it will have been more than worth all the effort. If not, it still was, for their benefit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Thank you Shearonink. I didn't want to just start going through and deleting those because I did think that it was good faith effort, but the mass of added non-notable articles just struck me as odd. Thank you all for your help. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 02:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I remember very clearly how confusing this place was when I first started so I try to give people a lot of AGF, but the sheer volume, the apparent mimicry of all these contributions to each other and the timeline is somewhat troubling to me....but just because I am troubled doesn't mean these editors are out to deep-six the encyclopedia, it just means I and maybe some others are...troubled and *that* means that we want to look into the circumstances a little bit more, because from all the articles I have read, none of the subjects are notable. If someone wanted to write an article about the veracity of the FWP interviews as a oral history project (and I've read them and used them in research before and can see how they could perhaps not be reliable) then that *might* be a reliably-sourced subject but for Willie and Mary Roberts et al?, I just don't see it. Maybe the content can be adjusted into a different form or moved into a different subject or something... Obviously, these people or this person, whoever and whatever they are, have gone to a lot of trouble to learn the WP:MOS, how to Wiki-code an article, how to "do things right", I don't want to throw the article-baby out with the Wikipedia-bathwater unless it is absolutely necessary. Shearonink (talk) 04:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to mention that none of the four have replied to my posts on their talkpages yet. I am going to post some more 'Welcome and a question's on maybe three or four more of the apparent group's talkpages and see if we can get a response from anyone in that group before any severe action is taken. Shearonink (talk) 04:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now posted the 'Welcome and a question' on four more User talkpages, User talk:JohnRobinson94, User talk:Paigemedlin, User talk:Rhoner, and User talk:Aecorrig. I will mark off the articles up above who have my query-posts on their creator's talkpages now. Shearonink (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is all part of the philosophy we have at WP:Wikiproject Editor Retention, a project I started in July and that has grown to 100 members already. I appreciate the extra effort here, truly. These little things really make a difference. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 07:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

None of the eight editors I contacted have replied yet, which is disappointing. Before any further possible action, I suppose the only thing to do is to manually go through and leave a 'welcome and a question' at every single one of this group of 43 - I'll try to get to that later today. One other thing about this mass addition seems odd to me...all the content was just plopped down into WP main with no other edits in the various editors' userspaces. I did see an instance of a single editor who used the WP:Sandbox once but that is the only one outside article-space so far. Shearonink (talk) 15:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We just have to be patient, it has been only several hours. They may not log in again until class, or until working for that class. These aren't regular contributors, after all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Patience is appropriate. I do want to AGF and not scare them off. I just didn't want them to start going through and adding even more articles like that. The Articles for Creation process would have been more appropriate for this stuff. Thank you. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 17:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just as a follow-up, I just noticed that one of the users has answered Shearonink's question. Also wanted to note that a few more articles were created and then some of them PRODed by NawlinWiki: John Belk: North Carolina Textile Worker, Beulah Parson Davis, Wilsie beale, William Edward Bardin, and Eliza Grant. (Also: Halver Halversen (North Carolina)) Thank you. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 18:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC) updated: JoannaSerah (talk) 21:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, I will ping Drmies and ask if he can assist here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Holy shit, that's a lot of articles. Good for the project, no? Drmies (talk) 18:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, after looking at a couple of them, maybe not so. I left a note as well: I don't really want to go emailing if we can discuss this on-wiki, but--and I'm afraid this is typical of such educational assignments--there seems to be no on-wiki oversight. I see no edits by others on talk pages or in articles that would connect us to an instructor, but I have not plowed through all of them. Let's wait a bit--though in the meantime it will be difficult to stop any editor from AfD'ing the articles since these subjects are simply not notable by our standards. Drmies (talk) 19:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I deprodded the ones mentioned above, saying "not saying is (or isn't) notable but we should take this more slowly". LadyofShalott 19:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since these are likely students' final projects, is it possible that we can temporarily userfy any pages that are worthy of deletion, at least so the students can get a grade? I looked through a couple and I agree that they don't seem notable in general. Ryan Vesey 19:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't there some other wiki project that would accept articles on topics like this? That would alleviate the grading problem. Drmies (talk) 19:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, The NC WikiProject is first in mind since they are all NC people. However, I didn't want to just put them under that umbrella since I didn't feel most (if not all) had real notability. I agree with Ryan Vesey that perhaps they could be moved to their Userspace or to WP:AfC to allow them to really prove notability, etc. Not sure what other projects this would fall under. Thank you. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 19:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I didn't mean WikiProjects ;) but rather things like Wikiversity--some place where the actual text can go, not on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I knew you would have some idea on how to proceed, much better than I. I'm not smart enough. I went to the Davidson County Library today to get a library card so I can access NC libraries online, and they refused me the card. Sad, I know. And yes, I'm serious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From the response that was posted to my 'Welcome and a question' query at Talk:JohnRobinson94, yes, our theory that these were part of some educational assignment is correct, all these articles were part of a final project for an English class. Drmies, I agree that Wikiversity might be an appropriate home for all the individual texts, other than userfying the content I think it is the only possible home among the various Wikimedia projects (in my opinion none of the article's subjects are notable enough to survive any type of WP notability review). I am unsure, though, as to who to contact about these FWP articles at Wikiversity or even how to contact an administrator/coordinator at that project, am hoping that someone here (like an admin-type?) could initiate some sort of contact with the instructor before we move or userfy any of the articles. Also, if we are considering the idea that all this content should perhaps be moved to Wikiversity, then that would have to probably be approved by someone on that side of the fence....I don't want to be perceived as just shoving things over the transom and hope they land without breaking...
Would it be possible to put some sort of pre-emptive notice on all these articles now that they are all part of a class assignment, maybe something from Wikipedia:School and university projects? I'd like to keep the possible oncoming CSD/PRODs at bay until the instructor can be contacted. The work that these students did is actually quite good technically, some of these contributors would probably be an asset to WP, it's just a shame that the subjects they chose seem to be so non-notable. --Shearonink (talk) 21:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think he was saying Lady (above) is the best authority on what to do, and she has already unproded some. I agree that we want to find a way to satisfy the needs of Wikipedia while being sensitive to the budding authors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not any special authority on this stuff. I like the idea of transwikiing(?) the articles to someplace like Wikiversity. (Maybe is there a North Carolina wiki [a separate wiki, not the NC WikiProject] that might want them?) Has anyone (Drmies?) actually made contact with the professor of the class. We don't want to step on each others' toes here. LadyofShalott 03:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there is NCpedia.org. It is run by the State Library. It is not an open wiki (you have to contact their admins to suggest a topic, write an article or whatever), but the bar for notability is much more subjective and they don't always have the developed article guidelines (such as verifiability, etc.) that we have here. It could be something that they might be interested in. They could even do a whole project there about FWP. Just a thought. I've not ever written anything there, although I've thought about it. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 01:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

JohnRobinson94 just posted the instructor's WP nick on his talkpage, only edit was to the WP Sandbox but it's a start. I agree with Lady, I'm being hands-off with contact, any contact needs to be somehow coordinated so the message doesn't get muddled. Actually, I do not quite feel comfortable contacting the instructor myself - might be more appropriate for an admin to do it. These students put so much work into their articles I am hopeful that the content can be salvaged somewhere in the Wiki-verse. I don't even know if there are admins on Wikiversity or not or who to contact about this over there, but agree that Wikiversity is probably the most fitting home for this FWP/NC content. Shearonink (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

Any movement on this? A few of the articles have been PRODed. I have added a welcome message to the professor's talk page, but probably needs someone (admin, ambassador, etc.) to coordinate this better than I would, I think. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 16:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think a few of the editors have been contacted but no replies. I think much of the effort was just to delay long enough for them to get their grade, but no one in that project has contacted anyone that I am aware of, and no one has been willing to email the professor. ~~At this point, the normal editing process takes over, as we have done what we can, and more than many would have done.~~ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking it would be inappropriate for someone other than an administrator to email the professor, but am doing so now....just to give her a heads-up that all/much/most of the content is now starting to be dealt with for non-notability. Shearonink (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE:I just realized I can't do the email...my WP email account is messed-up at the moment...can someone else PLEASE send a note to the teacher about these articles being PROD'ed for non-notability? Right now I am manually going through the list of active Wikiversity Custodians to see which of them are also active on WP and then leaving a message + linkage on their WP talkpage/s to this discussion. (There's probably some easier way to do some kind of sorting on this stuff but I don't know how.) Shearonink (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE:I have left asking-for-help posts on the talkpages of 8 Wikiversity Custodians who have also been active on WP within the past few months...maybe one of them can tell us if Wikiversity can house these articles or not. Shearonink (talk) 17:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After a quick look I would say that these sound like they are within the scope of Wikiversity, although they will likely require some modification to be made useful there. I'll bring this to the attention of the community in our discussion forum. We have similar learning resources that were done as classwork such as v:The_Crafting_Freedom_Project. As an admin at en-wv I can transwiki copy any pages in danger of being deleted. Please use {{Copy_to_Wikiversity}} to identify articles outside the scope of wp that are part of this project. I would suggest that you hold off on taking any action for about two weeks to given the instructor and students time to finish and evaluate the work for grades, so that this good faith effort is not unduly disrupted by a simple misunderstanding of wp guidelines. If the instructor's assignments are generally outside of the scope here, we would be happy to help set something up at wv to accommodate future class work. --mikeu ^talk 19:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest others remove PROD tags, add this tag, and just point anyone with concerns to this discussion. Mu301, if you can contact the instructor, that would be swell. I am not familiar enough with protocol to do so and prefer someone more experienced handle this delicate situation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is likely that the instructor and students are very close to final exams right now so they are probably very busy and perhaps a bit stressed. So I'm not surprised or alarmed that we haven't had an immediate response. I would be happy to contact the instructor; has anyone identified the person who is running the class? It would be a shame if potential valuable contributions to WP:SUP or v:Wikiversity:School and university projects were discouraged by a hasty decision. IMHO, the long term benefits to WMF outweigh any harm that the presence of these articles might cause in the short term. (Unless, of course, if there are BLP or other similarly urgent issues.) After all, education outreach is a priority WMF initiative. --mikeu ^talk 20:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the instructor was identified here [1] Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll followup on this. FYI, I also cross posted to Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard#Chapel_Hill_and_Federal_Writers_Project. --mikeu ^talk 20:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I didn't know I was in charge of anything here. ;) I see that there's a note on JohnRobinson's talk, don't know why I was thinking that someone from them would get in touch with us. I'll leave another note and will be back. Drmies (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, see User talk:Cjr100B. I will send them an email as well though, I might add, as an admin I don't have any special discretion here; anyone can do it. But I'll be glad to. Now, let me vent for a moment: [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]. I feel much better now. Thanks to all here--let's wait for the instructor to show up here and we'll take if from there. I gather from Mu301's comments that Wikiversity is a good option; Mike, I hope you'll stick around to see what happens. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The primary reason I hoped you would be in the loop was due to your occupation and ability to empathize and understand the instructor's motivations and methods, as well as your tremendous experience here. Admin bit wasn't really a factor. Not being an academic, I fear I would have been stumbling in the dark, and deeply out of my element. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:26, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think they should be okay on WV as far as scope goes, but I'd be slightly worried about BLP-type issues (there aren't any policies in place to deal with that, and there aren't all that many people patrolling).

In case of emergency (things get speedied, etc.) tell them to get in touch with me on my talk: I have buttons in both places, so I can still import even after deletion. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 11:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question regarding edit filter

I've been poking around, and haven't found an answer, so I figured I'd see if you knew. Is there a way to correct a false positive from the edit filter that preserves attribution? Monty ₈₄₅ 21:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very good question. I never mess with the edit filter, never even gave myself the bit to do so. It is something I've always needed to get familiar with since I have a little real life experience with that, but not here. Sorry. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well, thanks for the quick response. Trying VPT. Monty ₈₄₅ 22:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

50s

saw your Mally posts. I have some stuff in sandbox and some moved out over the years in NASCAR. User:Ched/To Do I'll try to get back to after 1st of the year. You're welcome to move or use anything. Also, I have a book: NASCAR, A Fast History by Greg Fielden that may have a thing or two if you want to expand that particular section in the future. (lots of other NASCAR stuff too). If there's anything I can do to help - let me know. Best always. — Ched : ? 02:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jump in. The primary focus of this article is culture surrounding the era, but I also have other articles of the era I'm working on as well. Actually, I'm not a NASCAR fan per see (I do like motorsports and the old NASCAR when they were stock), but I can see a fresh article on the roots of NASCAR that covers the 50s, or just "the early years" through the early 70s as being a viable article, that covers everything in depth. There is a lot of interesting history that would be too much for the general article but is worth covering for the history aspect. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 06:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Charlotte Moore

Hi Dennis. As way of courtesy notification, since you were the nominator at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charlotte Moore, I wanted to let you know that I've resurrected this article, with sourcing improvements that I believe address the concerns expressed at the AfD. Certainly let me know if you have any concerns. Regards, Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The new sourcing is better. You must have done some pretty good digging, as I remember it being very difficult to find any information of any kind. Per the discussion at AFD, if this version had been nominated, it would have survived as a keep, so I have no complaints about the current version. I appreciate the heads up. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 07:04, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

HighBeam

Hi Dennis; do you have a HighBeam account? Keri (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, unfortunately I don't. I don't work in academia, so I don't have access to getting one on the cheap either. :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will email you some articles. Keri (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: free, full-access, 1-year HighBeam Research account application at WP:HighBeam/Applications. Mojoworker (talk) 19:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I see you already added your name to the latest round. Mojoworker (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I had, just hadn't checked. Here lately, I've been spending all my lunch money and allowance on actual dead tree books for a series of articles I'm working on, centered around automobiles and American culture. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

spa tag

I left a note at User talk:Bbb23#spa, but before I nominate it for deletion, I'm curious as to what you think about it. Care to offer an opinion? Ryan Vesey 15:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Editor review

I've started an editor review on myself at Wikipedia:Editor review/Ritchie333. As you seem to give good constructive feedback in editor reviews, your feedback would be appreciated. --Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 17:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oops

Sorry about that. I hit rollback by mistake while stalking your cool automobile sandbox draft. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Malleus may come bop you on the head like Little Bunny Foo Foo, so put your helmet on ;) I had already seen that, and quickly concluded it was an innocent mistake. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I already did. Malleus Fatuorum 19:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you post any faster, you're going to travel backward in time. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:18, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll let you know yesterday about that. Malleus Fatuorum 19:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll tell you last week that there is no need. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why it happens: I've been watching you build User:Dennis Brown/Articles/1950's American automobile culture for some time, so it's on my watchlist. When my watchlist loads, it does a sudden line jump after a pause, which, if at the right moment, causes me to click the wrong line. It happens once every several months if I'm not careful. A thousand pardons to you both. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The "line jump" thing Anna describes has been going on for at least several years now, and in my case, it happens every time I load my watchlist. The entire list, starting with the first entry will move down. A bad rollback can occur when you try to click a link before the watchlist stops loading, which results in the focus of your mouse click or touch tap missing the link and clicking a rollback instead. It would be helpful to find out if this has already been reported as a bug. Viriditas (talk) 20:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

""I'm guessing it relates to Twinkle, which positions the functions differently, and loads last. Just a guess though. I've done the same more than once. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There might have been some sort of general problem. I lost my nav bar completely for a period of time yesterday. Gtwfan52 (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, that nav bar thing was different, that was all Writ Keeper's fault. But please don't tell him I said that. The jumping is totally Twinkle, and it bugs the **** out of me. All the geeks are going to correct me, but Twinkle must take some loading after the real shit is already loaded, and then it goes, "oh yeah, me too fatass, so move over a half an inch. Oh, you were too fast. Sucks being you." But I've prevented one future set of occurrences by removing Anna Frodesiak's rollback. Drmies (talk) 07:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, you're going to smoke a turd in purgatory, you know what right? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That beats swimming in shit in the Inferno. (Though flattery is probably not the biggest of my sins.) Drmies (talk) 15:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, Dennis Brown. You have new messages at User_talk:Guðsþegn/Academy.
Message added 19:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Get your thoughts on a Wikipedia Service Academy to coordinate admin prep. Guðsþegn (talk) 19:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might wanna make yourself aware of...

This, this and this. Sadly, I can no longer be part of the project with this user here. Statυs (talk) 03:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at my talk page history, it appears it has been handled in part. I don't want to see anyone leave Wikipedia, I just want to see the lot of you playing in different corners. We all need a break every now and then, but it doesn't need to be forever. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Friendly review of NAC AfD closure

Since I got bitten the last time I NACed a AfD closure, could you please review Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sagi Haviv and give your thoughts? Thanks Hasteur (talk) 15:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus seems the right answer, considering the responses (and weakness thereof). The closing phrase "No prejudice to speedy re-nomination pending a more reasoned nomination rationalle"(sic) might be taken the wrong way, ie: that the nomination wasn't reasonable, although I don't think that is what you meant. Some people get defensive when you end up keeping an article they nominated, so wording is important. Often times, less is more. But that is just an observation, not a "problem" per se. Per consensus, people can always instantly renom a no-consensus close even using the same rationale, so a forward looking statement isn't needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I was trying to suggest that a speedy re-nominaton should include improvements to strengthen the position of the deletion argument. Thank you for looking over it. Hasteur (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I trust your faith, just saying some times things get misunderstood. You know how some people are. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help

Dennis, quite some time ago, you advised me on how to change my interface so I have special options at the top right of user pages for User and Page history. Since the problems with the UI in the last few days, I've been having problems with that portion of my screen. At first, part of the word "User" and part of the word "Page" were missing. Now, it's even worse as everything except the down arrows themselves is missing (to the right of TW). I can't even remember whether it was a script you pointed me to or something else. I've tried (twice) purging all of my cache (in Firefox), but it doesn't help. I've gotten rid of the worst of the UI problems, which most everyone seemed to experience, but not this one part. Are you experiencing this? Any suggestions on what to do? I've posted at the Pump, but no one has come up with a solution that I'm aware of (the threads go on and on). Thanks much.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think I had you install twinkle. Try going to [2], disable Twinkle. Clear your cache, close browser, come back, go there again and re-enable Twinkle. If that doesn't work, then you need to comment out everything in vector.js, reclear cache, then see how it is, and re-enable one at a time, refreshing (F5) each time. Likely it is still just a cache issue, but all this thrashing should clear it up. If not, ping me again. I'm not an expert on this, but will do what I can, and likely, a talk page stalker will jump in with a better answer if these don't work. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I know it wasn't installing Twinkle because I used Twinkle well before I became an admin. It's possible that something in my Twinkle preferences changed my UI, so I did try the steps you noted above re Twinkle. Disabling Twinkle removed the TW tab, but everything else was still messed up, so I doubt it has anything to do with Twinkle. I've looked at my list of scripts, but I'm not sure what each one does. I wish I had commented them when I installed them, but too late for that. I haven't tried removing any yet. I may try simply disabling them all just for grins, but I haven't done that yet.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I disabled all my scripts, but it didn't help. I'm worn out and am going to give up for the moment anyway.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I finally figured it out. It's a gadget: "Add page and user options to drop-down menus on the toolbar." Unfortunately, although I now know what's not working right, and I can't fix it. I unchecked the gadget. I cleared my cache (again), closed Firefox, reopened Firefox, and rechecked the gadget. No joy.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have a hard time with computers. ;-) Try Internet Exploder and/or Chrome as a reference. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, at least I'm not the only one with challenges. Drmies (talk) 01:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dennis, did you intentionally call it Internet Exploder rather than Internet Explorer? Go Phightins! 01:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I did. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was a pretty humorous typo, but it turns out it wasn't a typo at all. I agree that Internet Explorer sucks. Go Phightins! 01:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see......

Personally, I use Firefox, with Chrome as backup. Thekillerpenguin (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You whippersnappers think you have this technology thing over us old farts. Anyone that doesn't remember how revolutionary ZMODEM was, or know what dropping to door is, get off my lawn ;-) I should actually work on some of those articles, but sources are hard to come by. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Easy, Dennis. I don't even own a cellular device. Go Phightins! 02:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

hehe, and I don't have a land line. Actually, being 48 is a good age, getting to watch all this stuff develop over the years. The first IBM PC hit the market as I entered the 11th grade, and it has been a fun ride ever since. Lots of this early stuff isn't documented very well, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:35, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My dad isn't that much older than you, but his technological "adeptness" can be expressed on a scale of one to ten as 1.0 x 10^-200. Go Phightins! 02:39, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most people my age are that way, honestly. I was never a wiz kid, but I've worked with Linux for 15 years, and computers in general for 30. I'm a bit of an oddity, particularly since I didn't go to college to study them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, my dad's only formalized computer training, I suppose, would be a typing class he took his senior year of high school so he knew where the different keys on a typewriter were when he was typing papers for college. Go Phightins! 02:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not sure why the last edit was marked as minor...maybe my track pad was being annoying and I didn't notice I clicked that on my way to the save page button. Go Phightins! 02:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I took the same class. IBM Selectric typewriters with blank keys and chart on the wall so you had to learn. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - The only typing instruction I had was in fourth or fifth grade using plastic orange covers to put over the keys; never ceased to amaze me how many people couldn't memorize it especially since most had been texting since first or second grade, but I digress. Go Phightins! 03:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - I'm the same type of oddity as you, Dennis, regarding working with computers despite never having studied them. Well, in my case "working" is a rather loose term nowadays but it's still my job when the work is there. My first computer was home-built: etched my own circuit board, and used an Intel 8080A with its separate DMA chip etc + DIP switches rather than a keypad. Those were the days.
        I had (still have) a friend who was in the upholstery game. By that point, I was programming in various languages using a keyboard stripped from a Wyse 100. He made me a programmer's hammer: a whopping big cut-out from seating foam that I could bash the screen with when I cocked things up. It got some heavy use!
        Did ya ever hack into a BASIC interpreter? The sort that came on cassette tape, so for example in BASIC one could change the "syntax error" message to read "stupid error" (same number of bytes)? - Sitush (talk) 07:49, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I was more into networking them, optimizing, BBSes, then apache, bind, mail and other linux services, and of course using them to the fullest extent. Back in the day, it was possible to fully saturate a system, but now the OS gets in the way. I was more into pushing limits than programming, although I do dabble with Perl a fair amount. I still do a fair amount of html, mainly by hand, even moderately complex code. I like getting my hands dirty that way. Like I do all things in life, I learned a fair amount about it all, and never mastered any of it. At my core, I'm a generalist, a jack of all trades, master of none. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        
        Very nice. Never did that. The closest thing I ever did...well, remember when Windows was an application, you would go into Windows, and when you wanted to leave, you clicked on an icon labeled Exit Windows? I changed it so it read Defenestrate.--SPhilbrick (Talk) 23:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WER

Hey Dennis, if/when you have a moment could you please take a look at the last couple of days of interactions involving JanetteDoe ? They've been AWOL since 15 September and I'm damn sure that is because they took a bit of a battering from an admin. I'm not asking you to step in there and say one side or the other were in the right, merely perhaps to review and post a message on their talk as you see fit. JD was unbelievably helpful behind the scenes and did a fair bit of much-appreciated work on articles and their talk pages also. Be a shame if they do not return, although I suspect we may be too late to reverse it. - Sitush (talk) 07:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, they don't have email enabled :/ This limits us greatly. I've added a note on their talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm trying to find that but it probably would not be appropriate to use it. I'm sure they've emailed me at some point because of WP:RX stuff, and I'm sure that I've emailed them. But if they've chosen to disable the feature then it would probably not be right to use the address now even if I found it.
The disagreement between the two was six of one and half-a-dozen of the other and for that reason I rather sat on the fence at the time. But JD felt it badly when Orlady was firm. It could have been better handled by me and by Orlady: I should have got involved a bit more in smoothing the waters and Orlady, as an admin, might perhaps have suggested escalating the issue to a noticeboard such as WP:RSN. I've overegged the pudding in criticising Orlady on JD's page: that is deliberate & I'm hoping that Orlady can take it on the chin: get JD talking again and things can soon be resolved. JD was a phenomenal sourcer of material from libraries etc, rather like Shrike - we really do need people who have access and are prepared to fill that niche. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most of my editor retention work never gets mentioned at WER, but I have learned that you have to accept that often, there is little you can do when you can't contact them. Often times, it is a simple pleasure for the casual editor, and once they have a bad taste, they just move on to other simple pleasures and have no interest in Wikipedia, so they never see the notes. This is why you have to be careful taking sides, as no amount of sweet words will change that. We are most effective helping hard core editors adjust with mentoring and mediation. But we try, and this is why we try to get involved with new editors as well, "guardian angels" in a way, to simple jump in on their first dispute and help teach them the methods of resolving it, so they don't feel powerless. It is more about teaching them to fish rather than handing them one. Editor Retention will always be a hit and miss affair, we can't save them all, but we should always try. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, noted thanks. I didn't particularly take sides at the time - I could see both - but perhaps my words today have bust that one, even though (analogising fish again!) the intent was to dangle a bit of bait and reel it in. Which is not the same as WP:BAIT. I'll take my punishment from Orlady. - Sitush (talk) 14:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm disturbed to think that my interactions with JanetteDoe may have had the totally unintended effect of driving this user away. I engaged with this user when I was perplexed to see that reference citations to works published before Wikipedia existed had been deleted from articles on the grounds that the cited source was a Wikipedia mirror (a logical impossibility for a source that pre-existed Wikipedia -- it is impossible to have copied from Wikipedia before there was a Wikipedia). I was hoping for specific discussion of the sources that had been deleted (particularly desirable considering that the cited content remained after the citations were removed), which didn't happen. Unfortunately, the user's curt responses to me weren't effective at communicating the substance of the concerns, particularly at first. Considering the tone of the user's statements to me and about me, I'm rather surprised at the suggestion that the user took personal offense at my comments. I sincerely hope there is some other reason for this user's absence and that I was not personally responsible for driving them away. I hope JanetteDoe will return. --Orlady (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Orlady, I think that there were misunderstandings all round. It's just one of those things. One aspect that was not fully conveyed is that Gyan is more than just a mirror: they plagiarise both other publishers and their own authors. One of the many examples that I have found can be seen by comparing

Pandey, Aditya (2005). South Asia: Polity, Literacy and Conflict Resolution. Gyan Publishing House. p. 181. ISBN 988182053038. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help)

with

Jaffrelot, Christophe (2003). India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes in North India (Reprinted ed.). C. Hurst & Co. p. 189. ISBN 9781850653981.

I should have done more at the time to mediate the situation, given that I'm more familiar with the issues. Still, I've got my own problems now! - Sitush (talk) 22:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One of the first "rules" I created when I established WP:Wikiproject Editor Retention is that we don't point fingers. Sometimes, someone may to be blame. Other times, an editors interaction simply hastened an inevitable departure. Other times, it was either unrelated, or the person got their ego bruised and is too embarrassed to come back using the same name. We all make mistakes. I've said things that caused people to leave for a while (I know of two cases, but they came back). Editor Retention isn't an absolute and the Project isn't about curing all the ills. It is about identifying situation we can help in, and making Wikipedia more user friendly for everyone. And we all make mistakes. As to any culpability here, I have no idea and I'm not inclined to try to lay blame as that solves nothing. Some simply can't handle the rough and tumble atmosphere here. The key is making the overall environment less rough and tumble with easier dispute resolution. This often means getting independent people involved early and keeping problems off the boards when it comes to newish users. That is what the volunteers do at WER. If you ever feel a situation is spiraling, just drop at note on the talk page at WER and someone will show up very quickly to help the new users and act as a mediator if needed. In other words, we do better if we help each other. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. It is easier said than done because often the spiral is not spotted until it has already become a maelstrom. In this instance I didn't really think that it was spiralling. I was/am familiar with both and knew them to be level-headed etc, so kind of assumed something. Obviously, all of my analysis here is dependent on another assumption: that JD's cessation of contributions is related to the incident. It may not be but it is one heck of a coincidence. FWIW, I've been having an issue with an IP at Talk:List of Reddys today and have specifically said that a third opinion might be the best option. I know what the outcome will be but, although some seem unwilling to recognise it, I do actually try to help people out etc. (Rayabhari is one recent example of that and is doing very nicely now). If you fancy stopping by that list talk page then feel free. - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

SPI help

Hey Dennis, would you be so kind as to lend me a hand? I've just blocked everyone on St Marys Church, Clophill indefinitely. One user, Gwenlen (talk · contribs), can be linked to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Filmfan1964 (via Bradswanson2010). The other three, Logistics Speaker (talk · contribs), Logistics Speakers (talk · contribs), and Resident Stan (talk · contribs), are one and the same (duck-wise). I don't know what to add Gwenlen to, or what to do with the other three; I guess I'm also interested in CU checking for sleepers. I appreciate your help. Drmies (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done I started a new case, really for the archive only, at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Filmfan1964 for Gwenlen. Of the three remaining, I filed Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Logistics Speaker because Speaker (singular) had edited before the other two, so the oldest, thus the "master". For this one, I asked a CU to check for sleepers.Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nit police

I usually ignore typos on talk pages (mainly because I have so many myself) but I saw "complimentary" on Mf's page when you meant complementary, and I thought it would be nice to catch it before he sees it. Plus I'm jealous that you are working together on such a fun article. Nice work. (I wouldn't have pegged you as a Michelob man).--SPhilbrick (Talk) 22:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Before he sees it and takes the piss" is I guess what you meant to say. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 23:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't peg anyone, certainly not Dennis, with or without a Michelob bottle. Drmies (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Michelob Ultra, to be exact, although I love any Michelob if I have to drink off the shelf bottles. Scotch doesn't go well with Chinese food. I'm a low carb guy, can't eat flour or sugar due to blood sugar issues that disappear if I do an Atkins diet. And Malleus is quite used to correcting my bad grammar and spelling. If I wrote two paragraphs that were perfect, he would suspect my account had been compromised. Feel free to just correct any mistakes I make without permission, btw. I even state this on my user page. I am fully capable of complex thought, I just have bad spelling and grammar, one of the downsides of being an autodidact. And yes, I'm very happy Malleus decided to help me after I begged and pleaded for his help. This is the first article that he and I have teamed up on, and I have learned a great deal. To be honest, I already knew he had a weak spot for old automobiles, which was part of the reason I chose this subject, knowing it would be a little easier for me to steal some of his precious time if it was a topic he fancied. ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:09, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So now I am scratching my bloody head due to your bloody header, I hope your happy. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Atkins diet would probably kill me. LOL! No....seriously though.....--Amadscientist (talk) 09:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My fasting blood sugar went from 116 to 92 (120 is pretty muc the start of diabetes), the lowest it has been in well over a decade. That and losing 40 pounds. I still want to lose another 20. Not sure how it could kill you, I eat lots of good leafy veggies and quality whole meats. My cholesterol is only a light high, but it was higher when I ate carbs. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:36, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Snakehands

You blocked this user recently for BLP violations on Diane Abbott. Your one day block probably went unnoticed, as they have returned and are continuing in the same vein. Time for an indef? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exact same behavior, so I've given a final warning. Since I made the last block, it would be better if another admin made this next block if needed, but it shouldn't be hard to find volunteers since it is well documented. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I just ended up blocking him. I don't think there is any controversy about it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:33, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you take a look at an editor?

Nothing here has been beyond the pale, but can you take a look at the actions of Doncram at Talk:List of Methodist churches#Red links in See Also? He's edit warring to include red links in the see also section, and some serious ownership issues are evident. He's referring to any edits or editors who he doesn't like (mostly Orlady) as being only involved in "disruption, and hatred". There's some battlefieldish behavior at the deletion discussion for the article. And here, he referred to Nyttend as an "idiotic non-person" in an edit summary. Ryan Vesey 01:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for giving me a headache. Reading all of that was an ordeal, to say the least. I've never seen so much wriggling around and politicking with terms in my entire life. I'm sad to say, I'm not sure what to do here. He has climbed his hill and will defend it to the death it seems. I can't even figure out exactly what he is defending, I just know who he is defending it against, and it would appear the list is growing as he is pissing everyone off. What little experience I have with him has been that if an admin comes in and tries to talk reason, it will immediately be turned around and taken as taking the other side, and cause more drama. I would have to think about it. Tokyogirl seems to have had the best luck reasoning over there, she may be a valuable voice in the discussion, although she is loathe to get in the middle of a pissing match. I'm not quite sure he needs a "shot across the bow" warning yet, or if that would even help. History has shown that he either calms down on his own, or gets blocked. Again, I'm not sure what the best action is here, and would have to think on it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He was raised at ANI for another issue so I added the concerns there to the discussion. The edit warring continued on his part. I'm hoping a one revert restriction and a mentor will help him. Ryan Vesey 23:24, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Identifying talk page material from socks?

Hi Dennis (or any talk page stalkers), I was wondering if anything should be done on the Talk:Art Pope page (and an on-going RfC) to clarify what was going on. Most of that talk page is me discussing with those two accounts (and yeah, I feel pretty dumb now for spending so much time trying to discuss and not requesting an SPI sooner). Would it make sense to put a small note at the top of the page about it, or what's the standard procedure here? Thanks, a13ean (talk) 03:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Typically, you can strike the messages of the sock, but not the master, unless that master is indef blocked. Here is an example:

<s>'''Support''' Because I can. [[User:Mr. Sock|Mr. Sock]] </s> <small>Blocked sock. ~~~~</small>

Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:48, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks! (PS: I think User:Triplicatio might have ended up with the wrong template). Cheers, a13ean (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, he gets a different template because he is the "master" (oldest account). The others are socks, he is the master. ie: he is real, they are fake (not really individuals). This is why you keep his comments, and strike theirs. CU found him Likely to Confirmed as abusing multiple accounts, ie: the socks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Er sorry -- I was just wondering because the user page says he was indeffed, while the log and his talk page says two weeks. a13ean (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, details help ;) Thank you. Fixed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Point to Ponder

Hello Dennis, I'm not sure if you would read my reply on my 'talk' page, so I;m posting it here as well. Hope this is okay. As you can see, I'm not that Wiki-knowledgeable, apart from article-writing, which is probably why I get into trouble for doing all sorts of things I'm not supposed to :)

Thanks for your kind words, Dennis. However, the SPI interested me not at all. I know I'm me, so that's that. No, what has caused me to leave Wikipedia is that I feel I have been bullied, there has also been attempted manipulation and threats of mass deletion of all the articles I created. Is this Wiki policy? I think not. I'm sorry, but I am not prepared to accept that. Life' too short, I don't need it. These were Sudo's parting words to me, relating to the letter above : Considering the attitude you've had with me and several other editors, I'm sorry but I'm not even going to read this. Treat people like crap and you'll be ignored, because believe it or not, people don't want to be treated like crap, no matter how "humor'' (there it broke off). It took me a long time to write that letter - I wanted to try to explain my position. I wonder what Jimbo would think of that response? Not much, I'll warrant. I, too, have been here 6 years (or maybe 8, memory fails with age :)). Anyway, I just came back to thank you for your thoughtful post. Best, Andrea AndreaUKA (talk) 13:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Laugh of the day

This one did make me chuckle. Hope you're good. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 16:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You should feel free to block them through the weekend ;-). That is a school kid up to no good. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:07, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	For sifting through 24 sockpuppets to pick out the handful still in need of blocking. Next time I'll only add the worst offenders. — Francophonie&Androphilie^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 23:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, and thanks :) It was quite a swim. Sometimes, you have no choice but list them all, I understand. Hopefully that will calm it down a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Triple Crown

Hi, want to go for the Triple Crown? Passat Ltd. Logical Cowboy (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for all your help on this. Do you think there is a behavioral similarity between Castle and WP:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bamanh27? Seems like two peas in a pod to me. Logical Cowboy (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many paid socks are because they use the exact same methods, which makes it easier for us to spot them as they stick out in a crowd. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guitar

This is cool! So is this LOL!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very cool jam session version of the Sultans of Swing. Again, your timing couldn't be better. The wife just called: someone merging on the interstate at 70mph/113kph spun out out control, slammed into the front end of her pickup truck, sent the truck spinning several revolutions on the rainy highway at full speed, knocking her into a ditch and almost rolled the truck. She is fine, fortunately. The truck which is older but (was) in near-new condition isn't driveable, and had to be towed. So I'm a bit shaken up by it, although obviously not as much as she is. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ouch, that is nasty. She'll probably end up being a bit more shaken up than is apparent straight after the event. I'm not quite sure if "She is fine, fortunately. The truck which is older ..." means that you have a very young wife or a very old truck but, either way, if it was me then I forget about WP for the rest of the day. Best wishes to you both. - Sitush (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the wife and I aren't new models, that is certain. ;) The truck is a 2005 Chevy 2500HD with only 60k miles and we kept it in perfect shape since buying it new. The other lady's insurance will cover it, but still. Once you know the wife is perfectly fine, then you get frustrated because they messed up a perfect pickup. Most "repaired" vehicles aren't the same after a wreck like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Glad she's ok!! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. She was a little stiff this morning but not too bad, going to keep an eye out, sometimes you never know and problems don't show up for a day or two, but we are pretty sure she is fine. Fortunately, the truck slid to a relatively gentle stop and tipping since it was so wet. She experienced a lot of movement but not much in sudden impact. Like the old expression says, "No one ever died falling off a building. It's the sudden stop at the end that gets you." Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Glad all is OK. Cherish your Christmas present---your wife by your side. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:25, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do and have for over 7000 days now. We are an oddity nowadays. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to hear she's okay. Are there any little ones (or slightly bigger ones) celebrating Christmas with you? Ryan Vesey 00:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, one is 18 pounds, the other is 28 pounds. Both have cold noses. I'm still paying off the student loans for obedience school. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doncram at ANI

It looks like your proposal to sanction Doncram for personal attacks is going to fail. Given the state of things, I fully expect to be back at ANI before long; I've given Doncram a final warning for personal attacks, and a single additional incident that I find will result in my requesting that he be long-term blocked. Since the community appears to be excusing his attacks on me and his driving off Dudemanfellabra by blaming Sitush, we may need to go to Arbcom. Nyttend (talk) 20:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming sanctions fail at ANI, would the next step be an RFC/U after Doncram's behavior continues? It's a sad case, because he's an extremely productive user operating outside of Wikipedia norms due to (for the most part) what seems to be a communication issue. Ryan Vesey 22:26, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If we must. The incivility doesn't bother me so much, but the tenacious editing and battlefield mentality does. It is an editor retention issue, as that kind of crap runs off editors. As for the apologists, everyone is free to form their own opinions I suppose, although they do seems to quick to ignore and rationale the behavior. And he has already had an RFCU that failed, so Arb is the next logical step. Ignoring it isn't an option. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't help but think Arbcom is the only logical course. I would support that.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember correctly, the only RFC/U about Doncram was attempted nearly 3 years ago. It failed to get traction because it was very narrowly framed. Most of the complex and acrimonious wars that Doncram gets involved with are about extremely trivial matters, such as whether he should be allowed to include redlinks in the "See also" section of an article, or whether Poquetanuck, Connecticut should be treated as a place or as a historic district, or whether the fact that a property is listed in the National Register database justifies the creation of a stub article with text that reads something like "The Jones House is or was a house in Anytown, Pennsylvania, that was built or has other significance in 1857", or whether a historic district with buildings built over he span of a century can be included in a category for architecture of particular year. Individually, none of these "issues" ought to be worth more than a paragraph of talk-page discussion, much less an RFC/U, but some of them have led to multiple megabytes of acrimonious talk-page interaction (partly because the issue typically relates to at least a dozen articles, and in some cases hundreds of articles) and the departure of editors. It may be worthwhile to attempt another RFC/U, but it needs to be broadly scoped to address the entire pattern of behaviors and not merely the most recent squabbles. --Orlady (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I recall some palaver about "built or has significance" etc. I was reminded of it when I saw "This list includes, with documentation, notable OBCs that have been identified at one time or another." and some equally anodyne (?) phrases. - Sitush (talk) 00:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've had dealings with Doncram on a fairly regular basis over the past five years or so. On the one hand, he is a tireless creator of stubs, disambiguation pages, and supporting or linked articles. He created much of the basis for the present WP:NRHP project. On the other hand, he has a way of personalizing disputes, and in lieu of thorough research he will default to language like "is or was associated with on or about 1857" that is better suited to a deposition than an encyclopedia. I tried to mediate the Poquetanuck business over a six-month period and made some headway, but it was excruciating, given Doncram's tendency to slice content into as many distinct articles as possible and to write walls of text to defend them. On a number of occasions I've merged material that should never have been divided into multiple articles, or found content forks that referred to the same subject under Doncram's preferred naming hierarchy. On other occasions I've run interference for him, declining speedy deletion noms that could have been avoided with a little more content and sourcing to indicate compliance with the GNG, then fixing it myself.

Since the Poquetanuck business I haven't been actively worked in the Doncram mediation arena, having used up my store of patience. I am very reluctant to see him blocked, as has happened in the past: he has done much good and I believe he has WP's best interest at heart, but experience has shown that he will not hesitate to dehumanize editors who don't share his particular editing philosophy. Cbl62 helped out Doncram as a kind of mentor for a while with positive results, but it's a full-time job. The quotes referring to Nyttend and Orlady (and others in times past involving Sarek) simply can't be justified, and it creates a toxic editing environment that has affected Elkman and Dudemanfellabra most notably.

Wading into Indian castes with this style of editing seems like a recipe for disaster. It's a horrible minefield for experts, and while I don't know if Doncram has any personal experience in the area, a continuation of the approach he's used on NRHP topics is asking for trouble.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution: if Doncram, for instance, removes discussion from Orlady (as he has done previously, interpreting disagreement as an attack) on any page but his own talkpage, I'll block him myself, but I don't see that as a cure for the root of the problem. Acroterion (talk) 19:29, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Acroterian. I'm not attempting to own the subject area here: I am aware that others will agree with me. I've already told Doncram that I am not prepared to engage in a running battle across thousands of caste article talk pages when the fundamental point will be identical in most cases. I described that proposal of his as "divide and rule". If he should resume doing that, I'll be going straight back to ANI. I'll also be going straight back there if he starts creating misleading dabs or inserting redlinks and unsourced statements: the caste sphere makes NRHP look like a walk in the park, both in terms of relative complexity and size. I mean, they cannot even agree on spellings of any one name, let alone which name is used consistently.

I'd much prefer it if he dipped his toe in by fettling a few small articles first, but I am already aware that he is not really an article builder (cf: stub creator) and his interests lies in creating list after list after list, all intricately woven but (I suspect) largely unloved. I'm afraid that he is going to learn the hard way and, yes, that may well include death threats & other off-wiki harassment etc such as I have had. Neither ANI nor any other part of WP can protect him from those. - Sitush (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you are trying to own the subject, and going by my experience, NRHP is a walk in the park compared to the caste articles, so if Doncram's having trouble at NRHP, I don't feel optimistic about how he's going to fare in Indian castes. My very limited contact with that topic area has not been happy, and it's been mostly confined to blocking people for death threats, something that has never occurred with respect to any article on old houses/barns/sheds/parts of towns where people want a tax credit. I really don't think Doncram understands how difficult such subject areas can be. You need asbestos underwear to survive in that environment. Acroterion (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may notice that I have only stayed out castes (something I know less than nothing about) but I've made sure on multiple occasions that others knew my comments were limited to the issues with the Methodist church edits. You couldn't pay me to work near castes. I've worked the MMA debates, and they are nothing compared to the fury. I have no personal issue with don, never crossed paths with him. Was asked to mentor him when I first became an admin, but took the job of mentoring YouReallyCan instead, what I still consider a much easier job. I just want some peace, and less bickering. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies to Acroterion. My opening statement was poorly phrased. I was not suggesting that you thought I was trying to own the caste/community stuff but rather that it is an accusation that has been levelled at me of late, principally by the Colonel and others involved with ARS. As for MMA, well, I've seen some of the furore and I'm quite happy to trust those people who are (a) sensible, (b) technically uninvolved and (c) see (a). As far as I am concerned "(a)" is synonymous with Dennis. Although I'd hope that you are finding the time to deal with the real life car crash rather than the metaphorical version that is flying around here. - Sitush (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't entirely assumed that you'd assumed that I thought that you thought that I believed you were owning the caste articles. Though it's of course been implied at ANI, I'm not buying it. Don't worry about it. And re:below, I've found that if you show up at the desk at Enterprise, they'll make a deal with the insurance people on the spot. It's in their interest to rent you a car and they'll do the legwork. Acroterion (talk) 01:50, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She waited at Enterprise for hours. Part of the problem was the other person had just switched insurance companies two days prior, so it wasn't "in the system". He finally had to get bitch on the insurance company just to talk to a real person. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cripes, if Enterprise can't figure out how to get you a car, it's pretty bad. Acroterion (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't entirely assumed that you'd assumed that I thought that you thought that I believed you were owning the caste articles. Woah, I need some sleep before I try to parse that one ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC) [reply]

Isn't this an effective communication medium? Acroterion (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two days later and the insurance company still hasn't authorized a rental car. Oh they did say if she just rented one on her own, they would pay 25 dollars a day, which is a laughable amount. All that matters is that my wife is ok. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BWAAH!!! Wikipedia administrators should be able to block uncooperative insurance companies to induce them to change their behavior! --Orlady (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, what a mess. (I confess that a few days ago, when I saw Doncram starting to edit caste articles, I though to myself, "No good can come of this...") I've watched the situation in NRHP off-and-on for several years, and I think some sort of formal process (RFC/U or Arbcom, although I suspect the latter wouldn't open a case at present) is probably necessary—the current approach where conflict flares onto AN/I on a regular basis is not doing anyone a bit of good. Part of the problem, in my experience, is that by the time Doncram and someone else are going at each other on AN/I, it's much easier to concentrate on suppressing the personal attacks than looking into the apparently trivial details that touched off the dispute. If we're trying to float an RFC/U, there are probably three areas that would be worth focusing on:

Lack of synthesis and evaluation. The "built or has significance" locution occurred, as far as I can tell, because Doncram was creating articles from a single database which did not unambiguously identify whether a particular date was the date on which a structure was built or the date on which some other historic alteration was made. He wouldn't look it up himself, and he also wouldn't tolerate other people removing the data altogether. In other cases, he's shown himself very much opposed to removing any data from the article if it was in the database he's using, and generally seems very uncomfortable doing in-depth research. In caste areas, where judgment and evaluation are a constant necessity, this sort of "if-it's-in-the-database-it-must-be-true" mentality would be disastrous.
Reluctance to use user space. This may have improved a bit recently, but my experience a year or so back when it was suggested that he make use of user space pages to assemble some of his unfinished material was that he rejected it out of hand. In general, the willingness to place draft content in mainspace seems to be a problem.
Unwillingness to engage his editing practices. When I tried to unsuccessfully smooth over a dispute a few years back, I had a great deal of trouble trying to get him to productively discuss what it was about his editing style that upset people and how he might try changing. Of late, his attitude seems to have hardened into believing that all his work is licit and policy-compliant and that the hostility directed towards him is purely the result of bullying. While I will say that he's cut a lot less slack than the average editor by those who have lost patience with him (see e.g. Acroterion above about speedy deletions), this inability to examine his own editing is a major problem. Choess (talk) 07:53, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

LatinoLatino (sockpuppet)

Hi, Dennis. It's nice to meet you. It seems that yesterday or today you've blocked an abusive editor and his sockpuppet accounts (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Imperium Romanum Sacrum). He really didn't like it and his response scared me a lot. With one of his sockpuppets (LatinoLatino) he opened a thrrad called "Enemies of Brazilian history" where my name was included.[3] Someone who uses this kind of language to describe another editor with different views ("Enemy") shouldn't be in a colaborative website like Wikipedia. And he seems to have made a legal threat: "I will offline inform other people about this behavior on Wikipedia".[4] Thank you for your time, --Lecen (talk) 20:39, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have revoked talk page access. As they are a confirmed sock, they need to use their primary account if they want to get unblocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Block experience

Hi Dennis, Thanks for the note about Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lurulu. I was kind of surprised by your comment that you were concerned that the person genuinely didn't understand why or even that they were blocked.

May I suggest you create a doppelgänger account for yourself? You can block the account and log in with it to see the blocked-user's experience. There's no way a blocked user wouldn't know they were blocked.

Such accounts are also useful to experience various non-admin user interfaces so you can better understand the non-admin experience (which changes over time). FWIW, mine is Toddst1-test (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log).

Toddst1 (talk) 13:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice the notice you put in, and it appears the CU didn't either, and I assume it was from the sea of other templates on the page. I do have a doppleganger account that is blocked, User:DennisBrown, but I've never logged into it. You idea is a good one, as I've managed to never be blocked and haven't seen it from that perspective. I went ahead and logged in to try it, and once you try to edit, it does shown a simple text message saying you are blocked. I was expecting more of a banner, but it is sufficient that they likely knew. Sorry about the misunderstanding. It wasn't meant to be accusatory, I just notified because I thought you would want to know about the comment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:30, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. It looked like a simple oversight on Courcelle's part. As you say, there's a sea of templates there. It also sounds like the blocked user's experience has changed some since 2009 - the last time I saw it. Maybe I should go block myself. :) Toddst1 (talk) 13:44, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a little red text, but I think we can do better to make it more obvious. I suggest my favorite attention getter, a large stop sign. Or at least a bright red box that can't be missed. "Adequate" it might be, but it could be more obvious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that text and treatment is editable. I wonder where. It really should be prominent. I'm off to work now. Cheers. Toddst1 (talk) 13:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MediaWiki:Blockedtext? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I've changed the border and text to bright red, lets see if it sticks. That should make it much easier to see, stand out a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The blocked notice is so much better than it used to be. It used to take up your entire page this is what I saw. On that note, I'd like to make a remark on my experience being blocked. First off, it sucks, especially when the block is indefinite. I would say that a large number of users who are blocked made a mistake, but they sincerely want to improve Wikipedia. For some users, this might not be possible because there's a problem with their personality. For others, they are capable of being productive editors the moment they are unblocked. Consider me as an example. Getting rid of that indef block is insanely hard. It was a 4 day process, which is actually shorter than a lot of peoples' but felt like forever to me. From the first two declines, I didn't think I was going to be unblocked, and it sucked because all I wanted was the ability to edit again. I was worried about the possibility of losing talk page access and felt like my opportunities were running out. I got lucky that I had the right people review my third unblock request, but I had also been actively emailing admins (Boing! being one of them). I was heavily considering just creating a new account and editing with that. When you're blocked, actions like socking aren't meant to be malicious unless you are socking to vandalize articles. While some might think the worst case scenario is that the editor is unblocked and damages the encyclopedia, the real worst case scenario is that the editor is never unblocked if they would be productive. It is easy to re-block an editor who was unblocked while facing their first long-term or indef block. One editor I know off of the top of my head who I can compare this to is User:Carthage44 who was blocked for 2 weeks for personal attacks. While this is 2 weeks rather than an indef block and he should've just waited, he socked and his block was increased. He socked again and I believe it was switched to an indef block. He's now been 3 months without editing which should certainly be enough to change behavior, but faces the prospects of never being unblocked, or being unblocked after another 3 months because Wikipedia takes such a harsh stance towards a)indef blocked editors and b)anyone who has socked. I think it's important sometimes to realize if somebody's socking is malicious or if it's because they want to improve the Encyclopedia so bad. Another editor who has easily served their time is Penyulap. Personally, I wanted Penyulap banned and never heard from again at the time he was blocked; however, I can't imagine that unblocking Penyulap now would harm the project and can certainly imagine that it would help the project. It is almost certain that Penyulap's behavior will have changed because of the block (Penyulap's case is a bit more problematic because we know there are external mental issues). But in both Penyulap and Carthage44's cases, neither of them are likely to request an unblock knowing that it hurts their possibility for a new unblock request. Is there a reason for standard offer to be 6 months rather than one month? In fact, general consensus seems to be that any habit can be changed in 21 days. Some of these poor Wikipedia behaviors wouldn't be considered habits, but is it possible that the same 21 day logic is enough for somebody to realize they have to change their behavior? In any case, this has all been stream of consciousness so it might not have a coherent point but </rant> Ryan Vesey 03:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose this applies to someone like Airtuna08 who is indef blocked for doing the split personalities sockpuppetry. It's one of those situations where it's unlikely to ever happen again and if it did occur again, it would probably be noticed immediately. If Airtuna knew he was unblocked and immediately started editing again, Wikipedia would likely see improvements. Ryan Vesey 03:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In another case, we've got User talk:Clumpytree. Socking or no socking, WP:ROPE could be applied and if we get lucky, things'll turn out for the better. Even if the socking claim is true, he's still been blocked for 3 months. Ryan Vesey 03:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In some cases, people play games and simply exhaust the patience of admin, who simply will not listen to further requests. It isn't a group decision, they just run out of people willing to consider it. The standard offer is as much about us as them. 6 months is a minimum for good reason. It is enough for memories to fade a bit. I will say that my luck with standard offer has been mixed. Not everyone is cut out to edit here, and some can't resist the urge for lols. The distractions they cause make life less fun for normal people who just want to edit, so it becomes a retention concern. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice turn of phrase

"I'm just saying ANI is like a night court where all the judges like to give life sentences, so it is best saved as a last resort." I liked that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:02, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I hope my fellow judges don't take offense, it was a bit of hyperbole perhaps, but as you know things often do get blown out of proportion there. We handle big problems just fine at ANI, but not small problems. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ANIISLOUSY. Toddst1 (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That has some family resemblance to Point #12 here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is your fault when you report someone at ANI. Before that, we were in blissful ignorance of the problem and you just popped our bubble. Besides, we were already busy having a 10k / 100 comment discussion because someone said "fuck" on their own talk page, and we couldn't decide if it needed to go to Arb or not. ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you tawkin' ta me? (said in my best Bickle). Toddst1 (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Sergiu Popovici

I just wanted give you a heads up that when you deleted Sergiu Popovici you missed the talk page. Cheers. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

D'oh! You can tell that deleting content isn't my specialty. Thank you for the heads up, I've remedied that now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Earth100 AN/I

You never replied to my inquiry about reporting people mentioned, but not the subject of AN/Is, so I'm still unsure of the procedure. Do you have to inform all people mentioned in an AN/I, even if they are not the subject, or only the subject(s) of the AN/I? Inks.LWC (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I missed that. You need to notify anyone you are reporting, as well as anyone whose conduct might be examined. IE: if you were reporting "Bob" for edit warring with "Alice", you would have to notify them both as both of their behavior would be examined. You don't have to notify those that just participated in discussing it, unless you think they need to know. Be careful, if you notify one those that agree with your position, that is considered WP:CANVASSing. The idea in notification is to be objective and tell those that should be there and offer info. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, thank you. I had only notified Earth100 there, since I was unsure of the rule, and since Meow had shaped up behavior after giving him the edit warring warning, I figured that bringing him into the AN/I would end up leading to more fighting rather than resolution. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Inks.LWC (talk) 19:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked user

Hi there, can you take a look here as you're the blocking admin? Bjelleklang - talk 18:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have, and I still maintain they are a sockpuppet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:08, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Bjelleklang - talk 19:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reseal discussion involving User:MikeFromCanmore?

Dennis Brown, will you reseal this discussion?[5] I apologize for adding on to the discussion outside of the contained area, but I felt that I should respond. But I know that this user is just going to come back and hurl more insults...and rationale based on his own personal opinion rather than on any Wikipedia policy or guideline, and I don't want User:JoannaSerah to be bugged anymore by this unless she wishes to be bugged by it. There's obviously no use in trying to discuss things with User:MikeFromCanmore. 220.255.2.160 (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Yo, 220, I've been following this thread as well (DB beat me by a split second on the sock block), and I've reclosed the discussion. Just FYI, you can do the same in the future by moving the {{hab}} to be right below what you want to collapse; it's not an admin thing or anything. For what it's worth, I think you might have been a little ill-advised to post it in the first place, since an indefblocked editor can't reply. But no worries: it's water under the bridge, and not a huge deal anyway. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I'm aware that that I could have resealed it, but I was taking the timestamp into account. Resealing it with the original timestamp makes it look like I violated the "Do not modify" seal and only serves for User:MikeFromCanmore to then violate it (although he'd most likely be reverted). And if I had added my own timestamp, it looks like I was trying to get the last word over User:MikeFromCanmore. I was in a way, but not initially by having the discussion sealed. 220.255.2.140 (talk) 21:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If all else fails, move the closing HAB, and just leave a very good summary. Look at her history: When I first did that, I said I was being bold and feel free to revert me :) Same thing applies to you when acting in good faith. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Imperium Romanum Sacrum

This doesn't seem to have any SPI content. Dougweller (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why there is no link, but its at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Imperium Romanum Sacrum/Archive. Monty ₈₄₅ 21:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed :) Assuming you use Twinkle and you run across that problem again, just go to that page, select the PAGE tab, and then PURGE. That will flush the server and make it show up in the current cached version. Not sure why that does that, but every now and again that will happen. I already purged and it is fixed now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- - Thanks, I'll try to remember next time. Dougweller (talk) 16:38, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dennis Brown. I hope you don't take it amiss that I address you here, but I think that ANI has gone far enough and don't want to escalate anything there. But in a nutshell: enemies list? Doesn't that spell "newbie" all over? And a rather bitten one at that?

If you haven't understood what Jorge Alo's dense prose has been alluding to: LatinoLatino's big mistake was waltzing naively into a private garden of a very aggressive editor. He tried to intimidate him, bait him, then attempted an ANI block, that failed, and then discovered his weak spot - a few unrelated socks. Jackpot. All in the course of a day or so. And here we are.

Why are third parties speaking up? Because we've seen these characters and bullying tactics before. Jorge Alo is indignant and insisting on calling them out. I just don't like seeing such tactics succeed - particulary when inexperienced new editors are involved.

I know you did your job honestly and fairly - I don't consider you part of this. All I was hoping was to ask for some mercy on a new editor's behalf - a bit of editor retention, as it were. Sure, he's made mistakes. But he's a newbie - a newbie who's just been through a rather harrowing experience. I don't expect him to ask you anything - frankly, I don't expect to see him back here at all. I was just hoping a little mercy, some reaching out, might sweeten the sour a little bit, and encourage him to return someday. Maybe you can do nothing until he asks, I don't know. But I couldn't really just stand by and not try. I've spoken my piece, perhaps more than I ought, now I'll step back. Walrasiad (talk) 04:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dewey Wins

[6]

Shame if it's not free. Being one of the 8 aside, I'd be tempted to post that to my user page if I even merely got more than 50% : )

That aside, it will be nice to not feel like I'm under the community-microscope : ) - Though... I have several community-wide discussions on the back burner that I just need to summon the energy to start. As I think you know, these things can take a fair amount of energy. Sooo... : )- jc37 01:43, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I can imagine it would it is a pain much worse than RfA for sure. You can have it. I don't see me ever wanting to be an Arb. Too much sacrifice. Not really sure what the reward is. Being an Arb seems like being in a boxing match. Even if you come out a winner, you still got beat up in the process. There you go, a picture for ANI :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:02, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Dennis: Too bad, you'd be a good Arbitrator. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I appreciate the kind words, but I'm not sure the job would bring out the best in me, honestly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm quite sure the job is extremely strenuous for everyone who takes it, and stretches everyone to the limits of their patience, but I think you'd be equal to the task. Still, you know yourself better than I do. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - Maybe I will feel different in a few years, but I'm only 8 months into being an admin and think the best chance I have for making a difference is working with new editors, editor retention, mediating, mentoring, SPI and removing some of the drama at ANI. Crazy as it sounds, I actually love working in those areas. I'm not willing to give up working in those areas just yet. It is very doubtful that I would ever run for Arb, which is a thankless job, but I may consider other positions after I've been an admin for a year, although I'm really not tempted to do so at this time. In the meantime, we did have some excellent candidates this year, so I'm very hopeful for the coming year. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MediaWiki:Blockedtext

MediaWiki:Blockedtext

I removed the red border as it felt like I was lost in a sea of red. But I made a few formatting changes to hopefully make it stand out more, which is, I think what your goal was.

My concern now is to make sure we didn't just violate WP:ACCESS somehow due to using a colour and not black for the wording. - jc37 06:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A reasonable compromise. It just needed to stand out more, and that helps. I was thinking blinking text, but not sure how to do that in the mediawiki interface ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pending changes

I have made my very first review as a pending changes reviewer. (Woohoo) I took the liberty of finding a reliable source to verify my review was correct and left a message at the IP's talkpage to explain the rejection and show them the RS and suggest that they may make another pending change that should be accepted if they use the correct information. I will not be doing this everytime I reject a pending change but thought it was something that I should mention to them and give them the chance to add the information. My question is.....if I reject a pending change as incorrect or innaccurate, may I make the addition myself? (I actually would love the IP editor to have the chance to make the contribution though)--Amadscientist (talk) 06:49, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Yes you can make the change yourself. However I'll point out that there are very specific conditions under which you can reject a change (see Wikipedia:Reviewing#Reviewing process). Unless the pending edit was one of the four on that list you should have accepted it and then reverted the edit. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I just found that and was about to comment when the Wikiservers went down. Understood!--Amadscientist (talk) 07:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ha me too, I didn't think it'd saved, but obviously it did. As far as I can see, it doesn't matter as much in this case because you gave a reason and let the IP know on their talk page - but make sure you read through WP:Reviewing and WP:PCPP. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, will do. I didn't even realize that pending changes had been brought back officially until today. I knew we had been discussing bringing it back, but just assumed it would not gain consensus.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There was an RfC in May, the result of which was that PC would become active on 1 December. During October-November there were a number of RfCs on how it would be implemented, and there were quite strict rules introduced about when and how it could be used. Hence we have a list of reasons to reject a change. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ironic, I rejected my first last night, vandalism by an IP on an article I had on my watch list. That is going to take some getting used to. There are too many steps in rejecting though. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK...then the irony is double...becuase I saw that on my watchlist and that was how I discovered PC was brought back. LOL! It is going to take a bit of getting used to.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:MikeFromCanmore as IPs

Since he's been allowed to post at User talk:Drmies as IPs, does this mean that you all are trying to understand his line of thinking...which may lead to his main (rather initial) registered account eventually being unblocked? Talking to him as an IP, he still hasn't made much sense when it comes to defending his edits and that's mostly because he still doesn't understand Wikipedia policies and guidelines. He butchered the meaning of WP:Verifiability, which I pointed out there on User:Drmies's talk page. I don't at all see this user being a productive, trustworthy editor of this site, and his pitiful attempt to pretend that he wasn't User:MikeFromCanmore certainly doesn't help matters. 220.255.2.145 (talk) 15:08, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked him. I hadn't noticed him there until you mentioned it. You seem to have a familiarity with some of the LGBT issues, you should consider registering and getting a regular account. It is more anonymous than an IP, and people tend to take reg'ed accounts more serious. It isn't required, obviously, but it really is a better way to edit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And you don't get caught up by semi-protections. Your choice, though, of course; you will not have been the only good editor who's decided to stay an IP. Anyway, I probably should've blocked him earlier, as it was indeed obvious who he was. My logic in not doing so was that, if he's evaded two blocks already, he can evade a third, so I didn't think blocking the IP was going to help much. Should've blocked him anyway, but oh well. I apologize for that; shouldn't have given him another chance to spout his abuse (his twisting of my advice to him on verifiability made me cringe). I was also hoping that, without the ability to continue edit-warring, he'd start listening to what we're saying, but it was not to be. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've done the exact same thing before and agree that sometimes it is better to engage them a little, at least try. I try to not be dogmatic about it. In this case, I will stay open minded but I fear this editor will never be able to contribute here productively. Some people just don't get it, and can't understand why others don't see their "wisdom" as undisputed fact. He is probably really good at something else, but not so much as an objective and neutral editor of an encyclopedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict) Ironically, after Mike's endless complaints about 220's ever-changing IP address, it turns out he, too, has a dynamic IP. Anyways, in for a penny, in for a pound, so here's the IP he had for most of his time socking: 142.161.182.190 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). — Francophonie&Androphilie^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 15:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
220, I'd really recommend you make an account, particularly if you want to edit these articles; judging by that twit's latest post on Drmies's talk page, he's planning on continuing once the semi-protection expires, which might require extending the protection. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't even read his latest reply at User talk:142.161.182.190. Maybe I will read it a few days later and reply then. But it's fruitless replying to him because he's so stuck on the fact that he's right even in the face of overwhelming evidence that he's wrong. He thinks like this (meaning the version he removed). He doesn't understand at all that we follow what the sources say, except for when it suits him. And that he insists that the information in the Lesbianism in erotica article about studies showing that men are more sexually aroused by lesbian pornography than heterosexual pornography are wrong makes my head hurt. He acts like we are presenting opinions as fact, when all we are really do is presenting the findings of several studies -- not one, but several. In his opinion, we shouldn't include this information because he doesn't consider the evidence strong enough. Yet he considers "just googl[ing] the most purchased adult videos," "see[ing] what they're about" and that this "would correspond to male arousal quite well" to be strong enough evidence. Most heterosexual men buying heterosexual porn doesn't mean that most heterosexual men are more sexually aroused by heterosexual porn than by lesbian porn.

Regarding everything else: Writ Keeper, your "but it was not to be" wording made me laugh. Thanks for that. Dennis Brown, I saw your advice for User:MikeFromCanmore at User talk:142.161.183.162. You certainly do give the benefit of the doubt, but being open to giving someone a second chance is (generally) a good personality trait to have. As for User:MikeFromCanmore still posting as IPs, I feel that his posts should just be removed each time he posts them...unless posting them on his own talk page. By leaving his posts elsewhere, he is repeatedly getting his way. I've considered getting a registered account, but would rather not (no comment on why that is). 220.255.2.133 (talk) 18:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a second, I just remembered we have pending changes now. I wonder if that would be a better solution. It would enable IPs to still submit changes, but they'd have to be reviewed before going live. That way at least you could get some work in, even though it'd need to wait for someone to review it. That might be a better plan. Lemme read up on the policy about it; it only happened like ten days ago, so I'm not on the up and up about it. Dennis, do you know about PC? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:37, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And there ya go, Bwilkins is all over it. 220, you should be able to make edits now with pending changes on the page. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you mean the Lesbianism in erotica article. But, like I told Drmies, I don't know much about lesbianism in erotica. I know more about research on lesbian sexual identity, lesbian sexual activities, and human sexuality in general.

Since the semi-protection on the Lesbian sexual practices article will expire in a couple of days, and User:MikeFromCanmore has vowed to change that article no matter what, I feel that the semi-protection on it should be extended significantly. To a month or more. Better to do so now instead of two days from now after User:MikeFromCanmore has again tried to edit it. I'm sure that he'll create a new account for this purpose eventually, if he hasn't already, but he'll be easy to recognize as soon as he tries to remove or misrepresent the studies that he doesn't like. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try the "pending changes" feature on that article with the same note about persistent sockpuppetry...and see how that works out for my and other IPs' editing it since you and a few other administrators are watching it. I of course still maintain that any future edits he makes to article talk pages should be reverted since he is indefinitely blocked. 220.255.2.125 (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Problem is that we can't protection as a preemptive action, only as a reaction. Rules on admin are funny that way, to insure we don't use protection as punishment or to shut out legitimate discussion by IP users. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's a rule? I've seen administrators extend semi-protection when an article is near or has reached its semi-protection expiration date. As for legitimate discussion, that doesn't apply to User:MikeFromCanmore because he is indefinitely blocked. Such edits to article talk pages (or any except for his own) are supposed to be reverted on the spot. I've seen administrators semi-protect article talk pages because of repeated postings by one or more indefinitely blocked users. 220.255.2.155 (talk) 22:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are some legitimate reasons to extend it, and some types of "preemptive" are tolerated, like when 4chan comes a knocking. Often, it is done for the wrong reasons. I try to walk on the proper side of using protection, and a single threat, possibly idle, won't get me to extend protection. Now, if they start back, I might go in instantly and add a much longer period of protection, which is left to the admin. We do have a lot of rules to follow, much more so than editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:49, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chili burger

I think that withdrawing sends the wrong message. That it says to pbp that he can kick up drama and thereby achieve the outcomes that he wants. I think that if this merger discussion is allowed to run its course, then a proper consensus will form (and that that consensus may not agree with my position) over as long as the discussion needs. I'm not willing to withdraw under those circumstances.

I don't think there needs to be a delay. In fact, a delay might work against the "keep" position because the AfD participants will lose interest and may change their minds. By continuing the discussion as soon as possible, we get a true gauge of perspectives.

You think that a delay might help to reduce the drama. I think that exactly the same thing will happen in 7 days, 14, 30, 365 however long. The resultant drama will be the same. It's the way things happen around here. So, where's the opportunity for compromise? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 17:38, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa...whoa...whoa... Are you saying that the AfD was closed as kept because I "kicked up drama"? It was closed because a whole lotta editors (some of whom I'd never seen before) agreed that it passed GNG. As for the merger discussion, the only one who's been "kicking up drama" is you. I am very disturbed that you seem to see this as some high-noon battle between the two of us. p b p 17:43, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did I say that the AfD was closed as kept because you kicked up the drama? No. You're absolutely right that you are very disturbed if you're reading that. Meanwhile, as has been pointed out previously, you have WP:BATTLEGROUND issues not just with me but with virtually anyone with whom you disagree at AfD. See for example your longstanding issues with ARS, or the fun and games that you had at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Occupy_Ashland_(3rd_nomination). But what am I saying? I've tried to work these issues out with you and it failed. So... I'll expect your reply, pbp, but I'll let you have the last word because I'm not talking to you. :) ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 17:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Look at your own words, "I think that withdrawing sends the wrong message.". You are focusing on being right, on how it looks and all the wrong things here, friend. I don't say this to be mean, but to tell you the truth, even if you don't like what I am saying. You are coming across poorly, as someone who is bitter about the AfD and trying to have your way. This is what is causing the drama. I don't care what the end result is, I really don't, so the possible outcome has no bearing on my decision of timing. Once I give an opinion at AfD, I'm happy to accept whatever the consensus is. In the larger scope of life and Wikipedia, this article is meaningless. If you knew anything about me, you would know I spend a great deal of time trying to prevent drama at Wikipedia. Often, the best thing to do is to pull back, let tempers die down, take the high road, and reintroduce an idea once the environment is neutral. How willing we are to delay our own wants, in order to serve the higher goal of building the encyclopedia, defines our character.

I've tried to provide an easy way for you to pull back just a little and allow others to reach the same conclusion you have once they see the scarcity of sources. I've looked, they are hard to find, and my previous participation wasn't based on "I like it", I actually improved the article, but barely. I didn't ask you to change your mind, or not pursue a merger, only that you use some judgement and patience here and do it in a way that doesn't polarize people. They are responsible for own actions, but if you know that your current methods are not optimal and creating an environment that will create drama, then you aren't any less culpable. I'm not going to fight about it, and I don't really care about what policy allows or disallows, that doesn't matter either. What matters most is the encyclopedia and the community that builds it, and that we work in collegiate manner, putting the needs of the whole above our short term wants. Do whatever you like, but we both know what is best for the community. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You said that I should wait a month before proposing the merger. I have responded to that by saying that it won't matter when the merge is proposed, this will be the result. The environment will never be neutral. I have done my best by proposing the merge in as neutral language as I possibly can, but that can only work so far when the other side immediately comes in and starts digging trenches. It's not about being right or wrong, I would accept a genuinely derived consensus without the drama.

But look at it this way: let's say that there is a strategy for a person to get what they want at any discussion at wikipedia. It works most of the time. And it's kind of fun in a perverse trolling sort of way. That is to kick up drama. If I withdraw, then I'm giving more encouragement for that sort of strategy because I'm saying "yeah, you created a battleground so I give up, you can do whatever you want." That's not a good thing. If you're about preventing drama at wikipedia, then you wouldn't be suggesting that one side to a dispute "turn the other cheek". As a teacher, let me tell you the amount of times that I have seen that result in a happier playground: exactly zero times.

So, my voluntarily taking the high road wouldn't matter. As I've stated elsewhere, I've also tried to work it out personally with pbp, but that certainly didn't work. My suggestion then is this: I will close the discussion if you commit to opening a new merge discussion, putting the discussion in neutral terms (if you think that you can do a better job on the language than me) in a month's time. I expect that you'll oppose the merge from the get-go, and that's fine too. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 18:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ping me in a month and I will. By that time, I will have had time to verify the lack of or existence of adequate sourcing. I would recuse from !voting and just mediate if necessary. This would at least provide the opportunity for me to monitor behavior of both sides equally and insure it is a discussion and not a fight. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I see ~~two~~three problems with the "come back in a month" approach. a) You haven't gotten Danjel to withdraw the nom, and it isn't looking good on that front, b) You haven't made there be any way to make Danjel stay away from me for the next month, and c) You haven't done anything to ensure that next month's merger request won't be even worse than this one (Now, mind you, I'd be fine if you banned both of us from the merger discussion, although I think I at least should be allowed to still make edits to the article as I created the darn thing). As such, while I applaud your spirit, I find the proposal flawed p b p 20:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at his contribs, he has only made one edit since I wrote that, and he is essentially offering to withdraw based on a criteria that I agreed to. If you want to not interact with him, then don't. Stop filing at ANI and just stop interacting and allow me to do what it is that I do. You both need to stay off each other's talk pages and likely stay away from the article talk pages, and let someone else clean up the merger mess. Cool down, lets spend a month seeing if we can source this article, and then have a discussion about merges in a month. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk Page Stalkers Notice: Wikipedia:Merchandise giveaways/Nominations

Thank you for all the kindness shown, even after I asked you to not vote for me. Jalexander emailed me and talked me into accepting the t-shirt, and I went and made a donation equal to the retail price and shipping, to keep my karma in balance. Those of you that haven't supported the program by nominating or voting to give some editors some shirts, you should go now. It is a nice program to reward editors, and one that I support as a means of editor retention. Perhaps I will upload a picture of me in my shiny new gift t-shirt when it arrives. And if have any good ideas regarding editor retention, tell User:Jalexander or stop by WT:WER and share it, we would love to hear your ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:29, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Purplebackpack89 ...

... left a message on my talk page. FYI. --regentspark (comment) 20:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I'm hoping I help them find common ground and move forward in time. Everyone just needs a little breathing room. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would like to aim for adminship

Hello Dennis,

I posted the following on Pedro's page, he's busy with real life things and suggested I post it on your page. I'd appreciate it if you could have a wee look.

I see you have a fair chunk of experience within the world of RfA and related. I've recently returned from a self imposed Wikibreak while I was focusing on my studies. I've been refamiliarising myself with policy and the lay-of-the-land of late and thinking how I could best contribute to Wikipedia. It's always been something of a backburner goal that I would like to aim for adminship at some point. Currently I'm mainly bouncing around project pages offering my opinion from time to time as I rejoin the flow of the community as a whole. If at all possible, I'd like the thoughts of an outside editor with experience in adminship and RfA on how I can best work towards this goal over the next few months. Cheers, Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 21:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but RfA is a tough gauntlet to run, and you are pretty far away from a successful run at this time. The problem is, it is impossible to assess you. Looking at your edits [7] shows you haven't been really active since 2009. It is virtually impossible to get the bit without having at least 12 of the last 18 months as "active". I've had one candidate barely pass with just over 6000 edits, but it is very hard without at least 8000 total. RfA is much harder to pass now than back in 08/09. I would suggest taking the next 6 to 9 months editing actively on article content and a little in admin areas, then request a formal review and begin to prep. Focusing on adminship at this stage will simply give others the impression that you "want it too badly", a common reason to oppose at RfA. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, great advice. I figured as much but it's nice to hear it from someone with a bit more experience. I wasn't intending to imply I wished to 'focus on adminship', rather, just point myself in the general direction over the coming months. Thanks for the response. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 21:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem, and give me a yell when you are ready. Gaining a WP:GA or two along the way is a great way to convince the doubters that you understand article creation. It isn't required, but helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 498: / Line 498: @@
 :::::*Problem is that we can't protection as a preemptive action, only as a reaction.  Rules on admin are funny that way, to insure we don't use protection as punishment or to shut out legitimate discussion by IP users.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis</b> <b>Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<small>2&cent;</small>]]  [[Special:Contributions/Dennis_Brown|<small>&copy;</small>]]  <small><b>[[WP:WikiProject Editor Retention|Join WER]]</b></small> 22:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 ::::::That's a rule? I've seen administrators extend semi-protection when an article is near or has reached its semi-protection expiration date. As for legitimate discussion, that doesn't apply to User:MikeFromCanmore because he is indefinitely blocked. Such edits to article talk pages (or any except for his own) are supposed to be reverted on the spot. I've seen administrators semi-protect article talk pages because of repeated postings by one or more indefinitely blocked users. [[Special:Contributions/220.255.2.155|220.255.2.155]] ([[User talk:220.255.2.155|talk]]) 22:45, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
+:::::::There are some legitimate reasons to extend it, and some types of "preemptive" are tolerated, like when 4chan comes a knocking.  Often, it is done for the wrong reasons.  I try to walk on the proper side of using protection, and a single threat, possibly idle, won't get me to extend protection.  Now, if they start back, I might go in instantly and add a much longer period of protection, which is left to the admin.  We do have a lot of rules to follow, much more so than editors.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis</b> <b>Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<small>2&cent;</small>]]  [[Special:Contributions/Dennis_Brown|<small>&copy;</small>]]  <small><b>[[WP:WikiProject Editor Retention|Join WER]]</b></small> 22:49, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 == Chili burger ==