User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Gibraltar pay for placement on the home page

Despite past complains, the community appears incapable of preventing the commercial use of Wikipedia's home page to promote Gibraltar tourism. See [1] and [2]. What do you think is the next course of action? As I mentioned, some of the editors appear defiant after being criticised for participating in the play-for-play scheme (willingly or unwittingly), and are making a point by continuing to festoon our home page with Gibraltar related topics. This should not continue. Jehochman ^Talk 18:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The Gibraltar DYKs will probably continue for as long as someone appears to be bothered by them. I am sure that some of the people most vocal about these DYKs are involved because they think that it bothers the folks at Wikipediocracy. It's personal. There's no way to fix this without dealing with the people issues. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Given the History of Gibraltar TFA request has probably the highest level of participation I've ever seen at TFAR, and given that support for running it exceeds 90%, I don't think this is a case of the community being incapable of stopping Gibraltar topics from appearing, but rather a very small, highly vocal subset of it being incapable of stopping it. The community itself doesn't have an issue with it. As far as the DYK entry goes, I would really like to see the number of Gibraltar related DYKs this year compared against something like baseball player DYKs. Resolute 18:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Some figures: since January there have been 24 Gibraltar-related DYKs on the Main Page, but 18 of these ran in January and February, and 17 of them were nominated in 2012 but were held up by up to 3 months because of a broken review process. The high frequency in those months is because of one of DYK's periodic drives to clear a backlog of old nominations. In the entirety of this year so far, only 10 Gibraltar-related DYKs have been nominated. The figures for the last three months are: March - 2 nominated, 0 ran; April - 2 nominated, 3 ran; May - 3 nominated, 2 ran. In other words, we have had just 5 Gibraltar-related DYKs running in those three months. Nobody is writing these articles to spite Wikipediocracy - they are primarily being written for Wikipedia:WikiProject Gibraltar, which is and always has been an entirely uncontentious WikiProject. Prioryman (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And to answer the other half of the question, I count 33 DYKs from March 1 to May 31 that relate to baseball, almost exclusively North American. Why are we allowing Major League Baseball to spam our main page this way? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Resolute 19:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Major League Baseball is a commercial activity, isn't it? What a shocking display of promotion! Prioryman (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And Bach cantatas (and related stuff). How many of those? Fortunately we seem to have run out of Governors of Kentucky. Johnbod (talk) 19:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I count 22 DYKs by a single contributor dealing with the Indonesian film industry (motion pictures, actors, and awards) for the March 1 to May 31 time period. Just imagine how many additional tickets were sold for all those films from the 1930s because of "promotion" on Wikipedia. --Allen3 ^talk 22:22, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Don't forget the mushrooms! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think the mycologists have been paying for exposure. Gibraltar has. Jehochman ^Talk 11:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• That is quite an important point that I hope people will not gloss over. There's an obvious quid pro quo here regarding what amounts to advertising for Gibraltar's tourism board. Tarc (talk) 12:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• Jehochman, can you explain why what drives Gibraltar or mycologists is relevant in any way, provided the article is reviewed by non-involved editors? --Cyclopia^talk 14:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not alleging non-neutrality of the articles. They are nice articles, well-written. I'm complaining (as a marketing professional) that the home page of Wikipedia is being abused for sub rasa advertising. If you don't get my point, please come to my talk page and I'll explain it in more detail. Jehochman ^Talk 14:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• If the articles are nice and well written there is nothing to complain. That's the point. --Cyclopia^talk 16:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• No, that's not true. It would not at all be okay if the New York Yankees paid a group of Wikipedia editors to write about the Yankees and boost that content to the home page, day after day, for the purpose of increasing their ticket sales. Jehochman ^Talk 18:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• So it is not okay to have (your words) "nice articles, well-written" if they're paid by the NY Yankees (or whoever you want) because...? --Cyclopia^talk 19:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Given your posts on my talk page, I rephrase: it is not okay to have (your words) "nice articles, well-written" on the frontpage if they're paid by the NY Yankees (or whoever you want) because...? --Cyclopia^talk 20:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman, the next course of action is obvious. When you are losing a "battle" against a multitude of editors whom have pretty solid reasons for the promotion of a particular article to TFA, the loser turns to Jimmy's talk page to try and drum up support from others who are moar interested in the dramuh than in participating to the project. Good luck with recruiting editors to your battleground cause. Russavia (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Russavia, I have a long history here and have never been sanctioned as a battle editor. I don't care if we have lots of Gibraltar articles. I'm not telling editors they can't write about that topic. My concern is that the home page of Wikipedia is extremely valuable Internet real estate, and it should not be for sale. All topics should have an equal opportunity to appear. Gibraltar's paid marketing campaign to increase tourism could use Google AdWords, Bing, AdRoll or one of many other ad networks. They can use public relations to promote their tourism. What they must not do is utilize such a campaign to put their stuff on Wikipedia's home page with an unnatural frequency. Jehochman ^Talk 13:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not personally see the TFA as a big deal as we aren't going to see a whole bunch of those popping up every day and I think the Gibraltar stuff at DYK is nowhere near as bad as it was last year. We are probably at the point where most of the restrictions should be relaxed, though I think a limit on the number of DYK entries would be good to keep. The issue was that a group of editors were pushing a whole bunch of Gibraltar content onto the main page in a very short period of time and the organization spearheading the project was a PR firm working with Gibraltar's government. As it stands, we don't have that much of an issue anymore. We are basically at the end of it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

"Nowhere near as bad". Last year it was terrible beyond awful. This year it's just an ordinary bad. We should stop all Gibraltar content from appearing on the home page until the past glut has been diluted by time. Once balance has been re-established, an occasional Gibraltar article could appear, but that should be very rare—because Gibraltar is just a tiny, tiny bit of "all human knowledge". One editor pointed out that the entire population of Gibraltar could invite a friend and they'd all fit in Yankee Stadium for one of the 81 games per year played there, and there are 30 such baseball teams. That's the relative unimportance of Gibraltar. I would not oppose a new guideline stating that topics should not be over-represented on the home page, including mushrooms and Indonesian films. However, there is a very big difference between editorial fascination with a niche topic and the cynical use of Wikipedia by paid propagandists. Our response should differ accordingly. Jehochman ^Talk 13:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any plausible evidence that the current TFA has been written or pushed by "cynical paid propagandists"? As for the comparison, you compare permanent residents with temporary visitors. And the importance of Gibraltar is indeed quite high for such a small place, because of its strategic position and long history. The world would not be significantly different if the Steelers won or loose the 1998 superbowl to the Freezers (substitute teams and dates as necessary), but it would be very different if Tariq ibn Ziyad had looked at the rock and decided that he did not want it, or if Franco had decided that he wanted it enough to try. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes. See Gibraltarpedia for the evidence of money used to manipulate Wikipedia's editorial community. Granted, population and size are not the sole determinants of importance, but I think London is a good bit more important to World History than Gibraltar, but it's appearing on the home page less often than Gibraltar. Jehochman ^Talk 14:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. But you mention a past event that may be reason for a certain level of suspicion, not concrete evidence for the current case. You have a point about London vs. Gibraltar, but you also keep confusing "cheap" processes like DYK with featured articles. London is not an FA. History of Gibraltar is. If London becomes featured, it can (and will, I bet) get onto the main page. And, picking January 2012 at random, Privy Council of the United Kingdom and Press Gang are arguably London-related, so it does appear on the main page. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I detect forum shopping. What should really not continue is people looking at the agendas instead of looking at articles. We could have a Gibraltar-related article every day for a year on our homepage, if it is a good, unbiased article, no matter if SPECTRE paid billions to do it. --Cyclopia^talk 19:41, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

...especially is SPECTRE is paying Blofeld for it, but the actual articles are written by Moneypenny in her spare time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• On a related note, can I ask that for all future instances of this endlessly recurring discussion, people are not instructed to move away from the horse carcasses as has been done thus far, but instead should co-operate in storing them for future use. Horse carcasses have been used for food in critical moments of some of the more than a dozen sieges of Gibraltar, so it would seem sensible to store them up in readiness for the next siege. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you to the editors, especially the regulars who've already expressed their opinions plentitudinously. The reason I posted here is that I really wanted to hear Jimmy's opinion. As for TFA discussion, I am glad to have spurred increased participation on that page. Jehochman ^Talk 00:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't think this could have happened six years ago. Then, WP had high enough participation that it was more difficult for a small group of editors to take over an area in WP to push a particular agenda. One of the weaknesses of a crowdsourced effort is what can take place when the participant numbers decline. Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I count at least twenty-eight registered editors who have commented favourably at the TFA request mentioned above - in addition, several more of the authors writing content about Gibraltar have not (yet) commented there. Is thirty or so editors really "a small group" taking over? Seems an odd idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the DYK issues. Actually, I personally don't mind what took place with Gibraltar and the DYK section of the main page, because it helps show how broken of an idea Wikipedia is and how poorly it is administered. Cla68 (talk) 05:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It's a natural progression for any community--cool when it starts, then square people take over and the cool people go some place else. Who knows, maybe it will become retro and the cool people will return some day. Jehochman ^Talk 11:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, the old Golden Age belief. Been here a long time have you? Feeling jaded? Don't spoil it for those who aren't, please.

As for "how broken of an idea Wikipedia is", yes indeed it is only "a small group of editors" who believe that, though whether, in Cla68's words, that small group of editors is trying to "take over", is open to opinion. (Cue User:Wnt.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• The above comparison of Major League Baseball and Gibraltar made me do a little research. "Did You Know" that if every resident of Gibraltar wanted to attend a Major League Baseball game at, say, my favorite stadium, at the same time, they could all fit? Actually, most of them (though not all of them) could each bring a friend who does not live in Gibraltar, and they'd still all fit. That's one game, of the 81 played at Yankee Stadium each season. And the Yankees are only one-thirtieth of Major League Baseball.

All seriousness aside, as someone who is not on any "side" of anything on Wikipedia, it really does seem to me that there has been some amount of abuse of the opportunity to place items on the main page regarding Gibraltar. Maybe that is also true of Indonesia. Maybe that is also true of Major League Baseball. I don't know. But I don't think one abuse excuses another. It may also be that the motivations behind the abuse in one case are different from the motivations in other cases, and maybe that makes a difference. I do know that the Treaty of Utrecht's 400th anniversary is coming up in only 100 years, and that seems like a fine time for an article about it -- well, not it, actually, but about a bunch of historical events, including it -- to be Today's Featured Article. Of course, if it is there on the 300th anniversary instead, Wikipedia will probably survive anyway. Neutron (talk) 04:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• As barely involved observer, one can see that whatever its merits the "solution" that "all Gibraltar related content is under main page interdict" has failed and is continuing to fail. So, saying the same arguments over again and proposing the same solution is just not worth it. If one wants reform rather than the same fruitless discussions over again, it would probably be best to concentrate on regulation of main page contests going forward. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Do you think people would agree to a policy like this? "Topics should not appear on the home page with a frequency that is excessive given their relative importance." If we have had three mushroom TFA's already this year, we should not have any more for a while. Wikipedia will be a better place if there is diversity of home page content, rather than these obsessions with particular topics, especially when those obsessions are fueled by contests, outside influences, or monies paid to editors. I would be happy to deal with this in a general way that is not connected to any particular topics. Jehochman ^Talk 14:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Rather doubt that the nebulous standard of importance will be definable or agreeable -- to a flea circus man all things flea are important. But "no material created for contests" or some refinement thereof, could work. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Everyone has their own things that tick them off, and excessive coverage of a place doesn't bother me nearly as much as excessive coverage of commercial products (especially certain video game franchises) or photos of nobodies contributed by publicists as "featured photos" (If it's a featured photo, how come the only reason I'd ever click on it is to see who is abusing our process?).

In the case of Gibraltar, how about an experiment - why don't you critics come up with one of your own - something that showcases the Spanish claims on the area, crime in the region, something they won't like, and see what happens? :) Wnt (talk) 14:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Given all your crying on the TFAR page is generating little support, I doubt this attempted proposal would work either, Jehochman. Ironically, your suggestion wouldn't even work, becuase I believe there has never been a Gibraltar-related TFA so you can not honestly make a claim for overrepresentation in the first place. Resolute 14:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• TFA bothers me very little. I am much more concerned about DYK, which is much easier to abuse. Jehochman ^Talk 18:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I would support a proposal to take DYK off the main page, but we all know how far that would go. At the same time, I would support a proposal to limit TFA's to subjects of some "importance", however that might be defined. All other things being equal, the History of Gibraltar would certainly qualify. My favorite recent example of one that would not qualify is the TFA from a few months ago about a video game that was never released -- not one that has not yet been released, but one that was "canceled" and apparently will never be released. I could not believe that such a thing was getting "top billing" on the main page. But I also know how far that proposal is likely to go. Neutron (talk) 21:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I would not support either of Neutron's proposals (every "importance" qualification is subjective and as such biased and to reject). But if all what Jehochman is concerned about is the domination of TFA/DYK by a single subject (which I can agree, regardless of how this domination happens) I would propose something on the lines of: no more than 3 TFA and 6 DYK belonging to the same category can appear in one month. (Yes, I know that some very broad categories like "Living people" need to be an exception, but I hope the idea is clear). --Cyclopia^talk 12:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Too narrow. I could do six hockey DYKs in a day if I wanted. So could others. So any topic area with multiple editors working to improve articles within that scope get screwed. And all because a few highly motivated complainers are attempting to paint a broad brush restriction in a bid to mask the fact that their objection is Gibraltar specifically. Lets be honest with ourselves here, this is about Gibraltar only, and attempts to claim otherwise are disingenuous. Resolute 16:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have mentioned Gibraltar as a specific example, but if there were a daily DYK about hockey I would raise a complaint: "what the heck, is this Hockeypedia or Wikipedia?" No topic should be over-represented at DYK. "Over-represented" cannot be quantified with a number beforehand. It needs to be hashed out by discussion case by case. Eventually if a pattern emerges that might provide some numercal guidelines. How are you screwed if you write tons of hockey articles and get one into DYK once in a while? We're here to write an encylopedia, not collect honors. The honor is a writing a nice article that you can admire. We should not be keeping score at Wikipedia. Jehochman ^Talk 16:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I've already shown that there have been more baseball TFAs than Gibraltar over the last three months, and by a large margin. There also is not currently anything close to a "daily DYK" on Gibraltar. So if your argument is honest, please show me where you have previously articulated your concern with the undue number of baseball-related DYK entries. Or, frankly, of any topic other than Gibraltar. Resolute 17:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Will Jimmy Wales say something about "Gibraltar pay for placement on the home page"?

I believe Jehochman was looking for a response from Jimmy (rather than the same old battle of the bands), so I thought I'd start a new subsection for that. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 22:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I just wanted to hear what Jimmy thought, really, not start a huge community discussion. To have a community discussion we can all go to the village pump, and I think it would be useful to discuss measures to avoid contests (or corporate sponsored article drives) from distorting the frequency of various topics appearing on the home page. We need to solve the general problem, not beat up on Gibraltar, a specific example. Jehochman ^Talk 23:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman, I think it's pretty clear what Jimmy's stance is on Gibraltarpedia and the relationship between Gibraltar and the front page so he really doesn't need to comment here and I doubt he will, he's been very quiet of late. Wikipedia's main page extremely valuable real estate maybe, but I think you have to look at both the context and the timing of the History of Gibraltar article. It was mostly written before the apparent contentious Gibraltarpedia was ever established and for any other country would be warmly received as TFA. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be concerned with having an article on Gibraltar as TFA for a day's exposure given the Gibraltargate scandal, but I think declaring Gibraltar as owning every Gibraltar-related article and discriminating against all Gibrlatar articles, however unrelated to tourism, just because of what happened is wrong. At the end of the day we're an encyclopedia and "History of Gibraltar" is as legitimate and encyclopedic an article as any other. If something similar happened with Russia, would we ban all articles on Russian-related topics, even say a TFA on Tchaikovsky or Lenin just because of it? I think you have to look beyond Gibraltargate one TFA for Gibraltar a year is perfectly reasonable... In my opinion it would be an encyclopedic crime to reject a core encyclopedic article like the history of Gibraltar just because some panic that somehow masses of planes will suddenly arrive in Gibraltar the next day. Prioryman was interested in Gibraltarian history and that project long before Gibraltarpedia. I think you have to draw a line somewhere... ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's for the moment drop the issue of motivations. What I think we can all agree on is that the home page should reflect a diversity of content, and that we should strive to achieve that. If there's a nomination for an over-represented topic, it should be a valid reason to oppose based on "lack of diversity", or "we've already covered this topic a few times recently; let's pick something else". Editors should have the common sense to restrain themslves if they've already had a few DYKs in recent memory. Step back and give somebody else and some other topic a chance. I'd like to avoid firm numerical limits because they'll usually be too high or too low. Common sense can't be reduced to numbers. Jehochman ^Talk 13:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal (which sounds much different from what you seemed to imply before) but since common sense is not common at all, I'd like to have number requirements. See above. --Cyclopia^talk 13:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem with numbers (not more than one hook per day) is that they can be viewed as an entitlement (one hook per day is good, when in fact, one per day is way too many for most topics). It should come down to a discussion where editors can say "too many", "enough already" and those would be treated as valid points, not dismissed. Jehochman ^Talk 13:38, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course the point system for TFAs already has the "Main page representation" criterion, going from "A similar article has not been featured on the main page within six months" (2 points) to "a similar article was featured on the main page within two weeks" (−3 points). These are significant numbers (HoG had 8 points in total). This only looks at TFA, not at all main page content. It's debatable if this should be unified and applied for all main page content (I'd rather not, because it complicates things, and opens the extra question of how to handle "themed" main pages for special occasions. More WP:BURO is bad). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

You wish to "give somebody else and some other topic a chance." Can you name a single article that has been prevented from appearing on DYK because of anything remotely related to Gibraltar? As to your concerns about "lack of diversity" and "we've already covered this topic a few times recently; let's pick something else", what alternate material are you proposing be used? Wikipedia has a known systemic bias and common sense dictates that only articles that exist can be utilized by DYK and other sections of the Main page. If you wish for DYK to feature material not related to Gibraltar then please demonstrate the courage of your convictions by creating appropriate new content and nominating it for use by DYK. Your proposed method of controlling a problem that only you and a few others seem to believe exists is censorship. Common sense however makes it clear that punishing good faith contributors who are performing the desirable work of creating quality content for the encyclopedia is not consistent with Wikipedia's core goal of creating a free, online encyclopedia. --Allen3 ^talk 13:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

There are plenty of new articles and expanded articles that could go into DYK. Rather than continuing to push the same old topics, the editors wishing to participate in DYK should encourage diversity. They can even look around for other people's articles to nominate. There's no requirement to nominate only the articles one has worked on. I have nominated articles for DYK from time to time. Jehochman ^Talk 13:44, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it is look at how many US/UK related articles become TFA. In a given year you count how many articles out of 365 are US/UK related. Then count how many articles potentially have some commercial link, whether it is a sports team season, video game or a film or whatever. Then look at how many Gibraltar or Spain articles make TFA. In my opinion anything other than US/UK and a commercial product is a good thing. I know Gibrlatar is a British entity but I don't think of it as such, I think geographically.. I'm perfectly happy to see one FA every year or two on Gibraltar. Would I feel the same if we had one a week or even a month? No, I'd consider it overkill and suspicious. But whatever agreement Gibraltar has made, I find it hard to believe that an article on the history of a country would be more commercially viable than an article on a contemporary video game or film. The difference is that it really irks you off the thought that Gibraltar might be using the front page of wikipedia for promotion rather than you not thinking it reasonable that Gibraltar could have a TFA every year or two. That is what you are so strongly opposed to and believe that any mention of Gibraltar should never appear on the front page again, I understand completely.

I just think Gibraltargate was massively blown out of proportion and was used as fuel to the anti-paid editing cause. I know that some people here and on 'ocracy think I was involved in it which always raises a smile. I generally support any project which collaborates on mass producing half decent content on here, but I've never supported the idea that Gibraltar or any editor here is using us for their own gain. Personally I'd rather the foundation actively supported such projects so everything is above board and nothing sneaky is going on outside of it. Whatever you think of Gibraltarpedia and the front page the fact is that the project has been very productive for producing content on wikipedia, except it might seem UNDUE on such a small area and has encouraged the growth of some rather lesser notable subjects. If we had that level of coverage for everywhere in the world, imagine how much better we'd be as a resource..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 14:39, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure...I'd agree with most of that bit still think DYK should be based on the same point system as FA to get mainpaged...that would greatly reduce the chance of over-coverage of any particular topic.--MONGO 15:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I've long advocated DYK reform. I recently proposed a new mechanism to reduce the expected expansion of articles unedited in two years on here (classified as "officially stale") to just x 2 to try to get editors working on a range of older articles on here but it was practically ignored. As long as people on here make no effort to introduce mechanisms to try to improve the balance and nature of DYK articles there's no use complaining about it. I genuinely believe that the community is responsible for most of wikipedia's problems on both the admin and encyclopedia sides of wikipedia, stalling growth because of the range of opinions which exist and unwilling to make major changes which would eventually much improve the website. Many editors on DYK though have a "niche" interest though and like editing articles on one narrow topic only so it would be difficult to impose restrictions on their entries. And if we were to crackdown on that, at present it wouldn't really be Gibraltar causing most of the problems for UNDUE on any one topic..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Projects

I am happy for projects producing mass quantities of content, even commercial support of projects, as long as everything is transparent. Such projects should not overwhelm a process like DYK which should present a diverse selection of content. Perhaps we could put a separate area on the home page to feature well-organized projects. Jehochman ^Talk 15:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I quite agree, in fact I think we should have a team dedicated to forming partnerships with councils and governments to promote wikipedia and to encourage local people to contribute something to their locality by editing wikipedia. But everything should be done within the the confines of our project with no agenda... ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman's conduct

I am not sure what really is going on with Gibraltar, and have no time to investigate the matter, but no matter what Jehochman is the last user to call somebody out on PR editing. His conduct in Gibraltaria demonstrates how corrupt Wikipedia has became. 71.198.212.25 (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Come, come IP editor. Don't be so afraid to take responsibility for your words. Be loud and proud! You have an impressive memory to recall conversations from 2007 and 2009. Jehochman ^Talk 19:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I would have been happy to sign with my real name, but I lost my real name to Wikipedia and to you personally, Jehochman. 71.198.212.25 (talk) 21:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, a personal feud, yet another endearing feature of WP's culture. Cla68 (talk) 23:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, "WP's culture", and what is WP's culture anyway? Is it, when mostly anonymous bullies lie about a named person, defaming him in the process (on this I agree with Jehochman) and sometimes this named person cannot even defend himself? It is what you call "WP's culture"? Ah, and by the way I do not recall knowing your real name, Cla68. I do not blame you for that. A smart person should never edit Wikipedia under his real name. Anyway, my post was not about anonymity, it was about Jehochman's conduct, and I did provide evidences to support my words. End of story. 71.198.212.25 (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

User is blocked for one year!

Hi Jimbo, I am a friend of Rich Farmbrough who is a great contributor on out site, but he was blocked for 1 year which is unheard of in the history of Wikipedia. What he did is a couple of useful contributions that the AC decided to be malicious, just because he did one mistake. Either way, why should I tell you the whole story if you can read it here. The conversation and uproar about his block continues to this day with ArbCom ignoring everything! Please read his talkpage for more info. Since you are a founder of this project I believe you have time and will to intervene. If you will help him, I will surrely help you!--Mishae (talk) 02:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

First, on the one hand, a one-year block is not unheard of. It is the usual length of a site ban by the ArbCom. Second, on the other hand, I have not researched the case in detail, but there does appear to be reason to think that the block was done precipitously and without consideration, and should be appealed to the ArbCom review panel, or the full ArbCom. Has a notice of this discussion been posted to User talk:Sandstein? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, here is what I found: diff where there is no mention of despite it happened in March of 2013, and then we have diff that confuses him with another user and thats pretty much it. However, a comment from Jimmy Wales himself regarding this issue will be of welcome.--Mishae (talk) 02:40, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Rich Farmbrough has been a problematic editor for a very long time, though some might argue that he has contributed a lot. The problem with Rich on one level is that he uses automated tools with little regard for the "collateral damage" that results. The more fundamental problem is that he substitutes his judgment for the consensus of the community, as expressed in many discussions about his editing. As this is a collaborative project, this unwillingness or inability to accept restrictions imposed through consensus processes made the one year block necessary, in my view. The situation is sad, but the relevant question is why Rich seems unable to control himself? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough#Amendments by motion for the crux of the present situation. To my eyes, the real mistake here lies in ArbCom's decision to respond to Rich's breach of sanctions (two weeks after the case closed) by imposing editing conditions so broad as to be almost certain to be breached, and whose enforcement appears prima facie ludicrous. Instead, Rich has mysteriously been transformed from an unresponsive admin who responds poorly to criticism to a martyr of unresponsive admins, ut supra. Choess (talk) 04:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• In general terms, not having reviewed the situation at hand, I think we give far too much latitude to productive contributors that have consistently failed to address problems that people bring up with them repeatedly. This is not just a Wikipedia phenomenon, I see it often in many Internet forums. If wider society worked this way, we'd be giving people a pass on dozens of minor crimes simply because they were a productive member of society. I don't think that's sustainable in the long run. Gigs (talk) 13:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

In wider society, you don't enforce minor workplace issues by firing productive employees. The boss really just doesn't care how many times his best salesman stole your food from the office refrigerator, sorry - or at least, his skill as a boss is measured by how good he is at arranging a way that you end up keeping your food somewhere else. Wnt (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Also in a wider society, employees that are serially semi-competent who flagrantly disregard instructions from their boss are terminated with cause and are not allowed back to work at all. So which is it here? Carrite (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

They are then free to find some other job, it's not that the boss goes to some court which imposes a topic ban on the employee doing a similar job elsewhere, the employee refuses, ends up in court and is then senteced to a year in jail. While what Gigs says about other internet forums is true, this isn't a good thing and society certainly shouldn't and doesn't work this way. If you are going to be treated like second class citizen, you will not accept that and one way or another, you will eventually be booted out. Websites where this happens don't do well on the long term (physicsforums is a good example, I was booted out from there a few years ago, and it has become a lot less prominent in the last year or so due to their stupid policies that are easily gamed by the Mods there, making the website primarily a personal playground for the Mods instead of about Physics). Here on Wikipedia, the ArbCom system isn't working well if the sanctions become more part of the problem than the solution after a while. Count Iblis (talk) 16:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• What we are seeing here is The War of the Dwarves and the Gnomes. Dwarves are editors who work mainly on content, and typically put a lot of thought into each edit; gnomes are editors who work mainly on form, and tend to make large numbers of edits doing things like changing a - to a –. The problem arises when gnomes use automated tools to generate edits that sometimes cause content errors. Because dwarves value information more than appearance, and gnomes the reverse, they can easily come into conflict. Rich is a Supergnome, and the comparatively small fraction of errors generated by his huge volume of automated edits ended up costing the dwarves who maintain articles an enormous amount of time. Eventually, after repeated failed attempts to rein him in, the outraged dwarves banded together to ban him. Looie496 (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Thats the thing, the people are happy when someone gets blocked. The admins don't have sensuality sometimes to understand what the editor is trying to do. Saying that blocks are ment to be preventive no punitive is another missconception here, Its hard to assume good faith after someone is blocked for even a day because it makes you feel being prejudiced against. I tried to tell admins that because I have a dissability I sometimes edit against consensus, because I don't understand it and I don't see it. People on the other hand, started accusing me of making a claim about it! Russian Wikipedia is the prime example, I tried to speak to folks there too, but even if they do call an admin a dick for example, they get warned once, and then they get blocked for a second offence, no matter how small bit it is...--Mishae (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
    • "Sensuality" ? I do not think that word means what you think it means. As for the rest of this, I really don't put much weight on editors who advocate on other editor's behalf. Rich is a big boy, if he wants to appeal his block, he knows the way in. Tarc (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Maybe I ment something like that admins and ArbCom are playing the role of big dadies who want to fuck everything around them. Somebody told me on Russian Wikipedia that its a trend. Once you get to adminship you can pretty much do whatever. In result, it ends with abuse of power. Now for the "rest of it" is my example of how it was with me, and that its the same trent here, its called comparison. Now for user Cullen comment: So, as I can tell by your post that you are against Rich as a user, but I don't see it as fair. First of all, calling him a "problematic editor", I wont allow it. Second, I am problematic probably too, but you don't know do you? Maybe you are problematic too, but how do I know that for a fact? Thats right, I don't! As for Tarc's comment above: Rich is maybe a big boy but he can't appeal his block as mentions on his talkpage. His statement was that admin named Sandstein is denying his request! Maybe he doesn't do it right, but thats what his talkpage says. As far as user's Looie496 comment goes, (I partially answered it above, but decided to come back to it). You see guys, think of ArbCom as NKVD troika that decides who to punish and for what reason... Keep in mind that the verdict was in favour no matter how much the accused was pleaded. Now, I know that Wikipedia isn't a court, but here it looks like it. Because see, most admins try to ignore the good edits by any user and try to find as much bad ones so that they can block him. Which brings all this discussion to another point: Even though that Wikipedia isn't a democracy, is it in any form a fascist or socialist dictatorship? In my opinion, because of this and nemerous other cases it begins to look like it. However, its just my opinion folks, your thoughts?--Mishae (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
        • Now, let me continue with my comparison. Again, I will use Russian Wikipedia as a prime example, since I seen many evils among admins and ArbCom there. When I was blocked by an admin there, I was astounded to find out how "happy" people were there, when someone gets blocked. I go to admin forums and I see people screaming for indefinite block there, and, as soon as someone comes up and suggests something else, much less punitive way, they "gag" him. At first I thought its only their Wikipedia problem, but now I see the same trend here too. Instead of including a user into a society we isolate him with blocks that majority of people believe are not punitive. In reality they are, and anyone who believe otherwise I would suggest to look over this "illusion" because its a double standard here.--Mishae (talk) 20:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
          • First I want to state I also agree the block against Rich and the sanction that Arbcom gave him is ridiculous and a massive net loss to the pedia. He and his bots did more edits in one day than any other user did in a month. The one year block that he was given borders on admin abuse IMO and was far in excess of any wrong that Rich did. He was trying to contribute, how dare he! As for the sanction itself. Its a complete joke and was what really showed to me that the Arbcom as we know it today is more of a hindrance and problem than the users they are trying to "protect" the pedia from. I really think that Choess hit the nail on the head above. The restriction was written so poorly and so broadly that it really leaves the indication that the Arbcom intended for Rich to be blocked and then wrote the sanction in such a way that he wouldn't possibly be able to meet the expectations. As written, it could be argued that even using the four tildes for his signature would constitute automation. Bar none one of the worst decisions I have seen Arbcom make on this site and there have been several. I'm not going to rehash all the problem with the case because frankly I think don't think Jimbo has the power to do anything about it and even if he did, I don't think he would. So really this discussion is pointless and Wikipedia will continue to lose out on needed edits every day until Arbcom comes to their senses which is incredibly unlikely. Kumioko (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
            • Don't lose hope, as a founder, he should at least come here and comment on it, if he have a piece of conscience that is, which I don't yet deny in him. However, if he decides to go with ArbCom, I (or someone else) will encourage every editor to lieve Wikipedia and spread the word to others on how unfair and fascistic the project is. And no, I am not threatening ArbCom or Jimbo, or anyone else, just try to reson with people and the founder. Another thing to mention, I am glad that Wikipedia have some users to whom I come for help and whom I can trust, unfortunatelly such users are in huge minority here, and majority is made out of such users and admins like the ones that you all see above, or the ones that I met: Rkitko, PamD and Stemonitis. Maybe I shouldn't mention their names, but the attrocities that they commited are great too, starting from harrasing and ending with demands on ban of such users as myself and Rich. I should once again remind folks here that Wikipedia is a colaborative project and blocks don't prevent damage, as they intend to. Further more, I need to remind folks here that if the founder wont reply to my inquiry, I therefore will assume that the founder is just a greedy person that cares only about himself, and rumor will spread about Wikipedia being just a hostile site (that is still good to read though). :)--Mishae (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Since the new system alerted me to the fact that I was mentioned here, I'd point out that my "atrocities" in relation to Mishae start with edits like these. He later called me "reverting scum" and "fascistic", and removed conversation from a talk page. Harassment? PamD 07:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
• Yes, Wikipedia is a fascistic (sic) project becuase an editor with a long history of disruptive editing (via incompetence or indiference rather than malice, but it does not matter) got blocked. *rolleyes*. Resolute 16:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Reso for your great input. You see, Jimbo, some users believe in you because you are a great guy that founded a great project, but the fascistic ArbCom that have a lot of admins like the above mentioned ones are the ones that make it look as Reso described above. User PamD likes to cover her butt with my words instead of looking at the mirror and admiting that she was wrong too in our little debate back then. Furthermore, I need to mention that even though that Jimbo hates and believes that every user who denies Holocaust should be blocked, I believe otherwise. Fascism is not a believe its what a person does, but to each his own. Unlike PamD, I wont be the one to tatle-tale on another user and to take them to AN/I. And, more so, if someone will call me a fascist or will deny a Holocaust or what ever, I wont take them to AN/I either, because being uncivil is not vandalism...--Mishae (talk) 17:05, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

And yes, Reso, blocking editor for a whole year just because he had a long history of as you call desruptive editing, does mean that the ArbCom is a gang of Nazis that came to power and are dictating who should be blocked and for how long. Tell me, if you would have been blocked for a year, how would you feel (especially if you got blocked for using automated tools, and now am not allowed to edit your talkpage either, because every edit you make even on your talkpage is considered to be automatic?) Would you come here? Sure. Would you complain (or bring someone with you to complain) about the unjust motion by ArbCom? Yes. And if you don't get your answer, you will end up speaking like me. Trust me you will, because by that time you will be so angry at the whole system and all those admins and ArbCom, that you will have no other options. The only thing that Wikipedia's (or any other Wiki projects) admins know how to do, is to block users just because they are bored. In that case they need to find a reason to block the user, and thats when they invent "disruptive editing", "personal attacks", and other crap, that can get a user in huge mess. And that mess is caused not by a user but by a lean-mean admin who wants you out of project no matter what. Yes, it says in Wikipedia that it is not for everyone, and its sad but its true. Wanna know the reason why its not for everyone? I will tell you. Its designed for cool guys who know how to block and know how to avoid consequences (Russian Wikipedia is an example).--Mishae (talk) 17:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that he is the founder but he hasn't had a role here for sometime and his association is much like the Queen of england. Lots of pomp and circumstance but very little power. He rarely even comments on discussions here anymore leaving it to the editors. I wish I did have hope for the project but the wrong people with no vision are leading the project to a dark place. Kumioko (talk) 17:47, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Now, going back to user Cullen comment: You asked a question "Why Rich can't control himself?" I will answer it for you: Maybe he just like me have a disability and needs a mentor, or maybe he wants to be different from other users that are part of this project. I don't think that having a disability or being different from someone is against Wikipedia rules, however, as with Rich's case we can see that the ArbCom blocks him for what he is not what he is doing. My case was the same, and I do feel opressed, when I come to a project to contribute, do something that some of the fascistic admins don't like, and get blocked. And when I voice out my concern I get silenced just like Rich does. I personaly believe that Wikipedia blocks editors not for vandalism, nor for disruptive editing, not even for being uncivil, but just because of their difference, wheather its disability, race, religion, or all combined. And what worse, no one cares.--Mishae (talk) 17:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

People get blocked because someone has decided that their negative contributions outweigh their positive contributions. Farmbrough did a lot of great bot work, but his personal interactions when handling disputes with other editors was rather atrocious. The thing to keep in mind is that being a part of a Wikipedia project is not a right; you editorial existence can be snuffed out at any time by the powers-that-be, and if you're just a plain old unlikable person as Farmbrough was, well, sometimes they will set up such a person to fail so they can get rid of them. Life isn't fair. Either deal with it or move on, but this continue whinge o Jimbo's talk page isn't going to shave so much as a second off of rich's block. Tarc (talk) 18:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

"The thing to keep in mind is that being a part of a Wikipedia project is not a right; you editorial existence can be snuffed out at any time by the powers-that-be...Life isn't fair. Either deal with it or move on" ...Wow, that's something they don't teach you in Wikipedia 101. I think if you asked any Wikipedian, they would tell you the opposite is true. So either this needs to be made more clear in the way Wikipedia markets itself, or you are sorely mistaken. I'm not sure which one it is...--Coin945 (talk) 18:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

You are asking the wrong question, Mishae. If I had such a history, would I complain? Perhaps, but that's irrelevant. The real question is whether my complaints would be legitimate. And to that, my answer is no. A lot of time was wasted cleaning up after Rich and trying to impress on him to ensure his editing was proper and/or desiarable. He repeatedly refused to address the concerns raised, which led to his bot ban. He refused to adhere to that ban, which led to expansion of the restrictions coupled with blocks. He still refused to accept that his editing was problematic and his mistakes - right up to the end - were wasting other editor's time. Notwithstanding the fact that your need to call people with whom you disagree "Nazi's" or "fascists" completely undermines your credibility, your entire argument here is vacuous. You have failed to address the reason why Rich is blocked, and until that is addressed - by Rich himself - I have little expectation that his block will be lifted early. Resolute 18:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually I want to clarify something Tarc and Resolute said here. Tarc says that Rich wasn't a likable person and that Rich wasn't responsive to comments. Both of those statements are patently false. Rich was a good guy to most editors and was responsive. What Rich wasn't was responsive to editors who constantly attacked him, blocked his bots or reverted his efforts for no reason other than being A-holes and the constant harrassment by a couple of editors over petty reasons. Rich's main problem was doign bot edits that were minor. That was it. We blocked a million edit contributor because his bots and he did too many minor edits. Most of which would have been required if the articles were to be promoted to GA or better by the way. But because a couple of admins had a burr in their ass about too many articles shoing up on their watchlists with Rich or his bots names on it, he got Arbcommed and banned from the project. Too many edits too quickly has got to be the dumbest reason in the world to sanction and block an editor. So if it was me, I would have ignored or responded harshly to the editors harassing me as well. I do agree however that this discussion is not going to have any affect because frankly I don't think Jimbo even cares and even if he did he doesn't have the ability or desire to change it. @Resolute, Rich did address the issues repeatedly. What he didn't do was stop editing. He violated a ban that was impossible to follow. No one, not him, you or me could have. No one. If he hadn't been blocked for that it would have been something else. Some editors were gunning for him and they got what they wanted. Rich is gone, his bots are shutdown and the pedia has far less edits being done. Many of the tasks he did haven't even been duplicated in other bots after multiple requests from different users for them. Kumioko (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

And your argument here is not vacuous? And its me who failed to address the reason why he got blocked? Here is my civil answer to it: He got blocked because the ArbCom got bored, and thats why they block him. Blocking Rich was a way for ArbCom to say: "Here, now laugh at it!" Get the point? His editing was problematic? How so? He made a lot of contributions and some people are in his support. Ofcourse there are some like you and Tarc that believe that we should block every user that is in our opinion is problematic. Let me ask you this: Have Rich done anything to you personally?--Mishae (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko - No, Rich's main problem was performing automated edits that were nonsensical and leaving the mess for others to clean up; e.g. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Rich Farmbrough/January 2011. Mishae - You still have failed to respond to the substance of why Rich is blocked, but I am impressed at your creative attempts at deflection. Resolute 18:58, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

So what you are saying Reso, is that I should agree with you in order for me not to fail? I'm surprised at how dictatorial you are. You know, maybe you should be elected as a leader of North Korea for example, I bet Kim Jong-Un will give you a nice palace there. :) Plus, I asked you a question and failed to answer it too: Have Rich personally done any harm to you?--Mishae (talk) 19:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

And at this point, I think we can safely assume you are simply trolling. Good day. Resolute 19:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That was one exceptional situation and there was a lot more too it than what is in that link. There are threads of it on Rich's page, Fram's and a few others. You know as well as I that link only shows about 10% of that discussion and skews it against Rich unfairly. So yes although he did create some bad categories, a lot of that situation was disagreements between how it should have been done or that some weren't needed at that time. Not that all the edits were bad. It was largely an I like it this way but he did it that way situation. And the reason Rich didn't respond was because Fram and CBM and a couple of other users where hounding his every edit day and night. He couldn't add a signature without one of those editors popping up to complain nfor months on end. There isn't an editor in the world who would put up with that nonsense. I would also add that a big part of his desysopping was based on his unblocking of his bots, a practice which has been and continues to be a common practice among bot operating admins. Not this other garbage you are trying to use to justify a bad decision. No one is saying (not even me) that every edit Rich made was correct or error free. What I am saying is that there was a lot more piss poor conduct by other editors, admins and the Arbcom than what Rich did or didn't do and nothing happened to any of them. Why? Because we have developed a culture where its better to do 10 edits error free than 1 million with 100 errors.

Mishae please, that's not helping and Resolute nor anyone else is going to change their mind about Rich. They would rather block an positive high output contributor who does 1 million edits with a hundred erors and keep an editor who does 10 edits with no errors. Whether we like it or not people are fostering an environment where less edits are preferred over a lot with a few errors. Its better not to edit or to only do a few than to be a high output contributor and make everyone else look bad. Kumioko (talk) 19:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

And calling people trolls doesn't solve anything either. Did I call you something like a fascist or something? No. Still as a stubborn person I will wait for Jimbo...--Mishae (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Believe me Kumioko, if Rich's error rate was as low as 1 in 10,000, he would yet be a highly respected editor. But the error rate was much higher. And higher still if you discount all of his pointless automated edits that accomplished no function other than to fill up people's watchlists. Rich made a million edits, but only a very small fraction was functional or useful. As to his block, no, some random troll white knighting for Rich on Jimbo's talk page is not going to alter my view. But I am not necessarily opposed to considering an unblock (such as I, or any of us could given this is an AE block) if Rich requests one himself. But the request would have to be a little more substantial than Mishae's B"waaaaaah, it's just unfair" defence. Resolute 19:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree with the edit rate and need of the edits. I don't think either one of us is going to change the others mind but you are grossly exaggerating the errors and problems to fit your own desire to have and keep him gone. Also, Rich has on numerous occassions talked for himself but he seems too have, and rightly so, apparently become somewhat disgruntled and disappointed in a project and site that he has cared about and devoted a great amount of time and effort too. Only to have a handful of vested editors, many of which with their own problems, run him down and off the site. Also for what its worth I agree that some of Mishae's comments are out of line however your snide remarks and comments are not helping either. Its unfortunate that I sometimes make the same kinds of comments and I am called a troll and a nuisance by you and others but when you and your fellow admins do it its perfectly fine. If you don't like the comments I am making then you should probably listen to yourself talk because I say the exact same things in the exact same ways. The difference is I don't have a couple extra tools to block users I don't like but I do and have considered myself for a long time and admin without the tools. Kumioko (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

And I will vote for you Kumioko if you will decide to become an admin. Now for Reso's comment: No, I don't have as you put it "B"waaaaaah, it's just unfair" defence". My defence is that he made a couple of edits that were not under ArbCom taste and therefore got blocked simply out of ArbCom boredom. ArbCom wanted to find a way how to block him and they did. They did it the way how NKVD troika used to do during Stalin times. Its called: "Find a victim and accuse him, but give him no chances for his defence".--Mishae (talk) 20:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

@Kumioko: "...using the four tildes for his signature would constitute automation"??? Surely this was not what arbcom intended in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich_Farmbrough, unless they said so somewhere else. 203.81.67.122 (talk) 13:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what the Arbcom believes or intended, they wrote the ruling so broadly and vaguely that anything that isn't typed in could be construed as automation. Using excel to sort tables offline, find and replace, anything, including using tildes for signatures. All it would take is some admin to come along and block him. He could argue it and maybe someone else woudl agree and unblock him but it is automation and it does fit the criteria as written. That is the problem with the lousy "broadly construed" language that Arbcom likes so much. Kumioko (talk) 14:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The "broadly construed" phrasing does indeed declare open season on any unpopular editor. Eric Corbett 14:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

So "broadly construed" works better for topic restrictions than for technology? It seems they are tired of the whole thing, why haven't they thrown it back to the community? There ought to be an RFC/U or something. 203.81.67.122 (talk) 14:33, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

No, what I am saying is broadly constued shouldn't be used at all. Its too subjective. We need to have defined and specific criteria. Its better to leave the person a little wiggle room and have to further refine it than to make the determination so broad and vague that its useless. The problem is the Arbcom feels they are above the community, beyond it, over it (kinda like the Men in Black). They don't have to ask us what to do they tell us what to do. Also, the Arbcom makes decisions the community can't and since the community can't make a decision on anything these days more and more is falling to Arbcom. The fact that Arbcom got Rich's case in the first place means that there was a rift in the community for and against him so it had to go to Arbcom to decide because the community couldn't get a consensus. When a case like this goes to Arbcom and they accept, that means the editor is guilty because they wouldn't even accept the case unless they thought so. There are so many problems with the Arbcom policy, structure and function I could go on for days. The simple answer is its a garbage process and no better than the problems its suppose to be fixing. Kumioko (talk) 15:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Very strongly agree about "broadly construed". From what I've observed of these processes, restrictions are not written to be sturdy fences, but rather are cast out like baited hooks with the intention of snagging editors and hauling them out for a final ban. It looks like admins measure their success by who they are able to throw out, not who they are able to engage productively. I think that this comes from a misplaced=social Darwinism - but Wikipedia is not genetics and it is in fact more a Lamarckian inheritance that has governed its evolution. Wnt (talk) 16:39, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, the intent behind "broadly construed" is very likely to short circuit attemps to wikilawyer around a restriction or to poke at the edges to see what one can get away with and what one can't. Rich's problems weren't related to the individual tools he used so much as the repeating pattern of behaviour - from bots to scripts to excel. The attempts to eliminate his usage of automated tools, "broadly construed" were intended to put a stop to that pattern. What could we use to replace "broadly construed" with that still effectively seeks to eliminate those repeating patterns of behviour? Resolute 16:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

We should stop trying to cut corners and be lazy and say the restriction is whatever the problem is. If we leave some wiggle room and need to revise it then fine. But we shouldn't be cutting down the forrest to prevent a fire. Kumioko (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually a common occurrence in fighting forest fires is cutting down the forest. As for not leaving wiggle room. That attempt was tried with him multiple times. He used up many chances. Now he requires broadly construed because anything else is the problem. -DJSasso (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

"Broadly construed" doesn't prohibit Wikilawyering - it merely directs that Wikilawyers against an editor will always have the upper hand, regardless of the facts of the case. Sorry, but the way to avoid Wikilawyering is by choosing clear, easy to make distinctions as your boundaries, not by phrasing something very vaguely and adding "and anything like that" at the end of it. Wnt (talk) 17:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Again we disagree here. He requires broadly constued because a few editors didn't like some of his edits and Rich got tired of responding to hate messages and complaints from the same three or four individuals and just started ignoring them. 98% of his and his bots edits were fine, its just that the volume of the 2% annoyed some people. But he didn't require broadly construed, its just that the few editors who were annoyed kept forcing the issue because its better no edits get done than some minor ones or a few errors. Ten edits with no errors is better than 1 million with 10 errors. Unfortunately somem editors have become so focused on being the minor edit police they are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't expect you to agree with me but mybelief is that the loss of Rich and his bots is a severe net loss the pedia for the sake of minor edits and few errors. You and some others would rather all the good work that was done be prevented if it prevents a few easily fixable errors. I do not agree and I never will. Broadly construed is nothing but a lazy fix because the admins and Arbs didn't want to take the time to do it correctly. This way they can find a reason to block him at their discretion and leisure and be done with it. Its frankly a prime example of the abuses that admins perform on this site everyday. Kumioko (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Which goes to show you don't have any idea the scope of the issues he created. If I recall correctly his edits were looked into and something like 10% of them contained mistakes. If he made 1 million edits that 100,000 errors. That isn't chump change, that is nearly as many edits as I have managed to make in 7 years. The amount of man power that was required to clean up his edits which could have been used in more productive ways far surpasses the good edits he ever made. You always cry about the loss of his good edits, but you always fail to realize that the wiki lost even more good edits from other editors having to deal with his messes. So yes the wiki is considerably better off not having to waste valuable resources on fixing his mistakes. Everyone did take the time to deal with it correctly. It took years of trying to do it other ways before it came to this solution. If it was a lazy fix it would have been implemented years ago without trying other options. Rich refused to co-operate, he has nothing to blame but himself. -DJSasso (talk) 17:47, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't let the lack of admin tools fool you, I Actually understand them completely and you are massively exaggerating the problem. A trend which occurred during the witch hunts as well and that unfortunately Arbcom didn't investigate further. There were several individuals crying that Rich was making all these errors and Arbcom just went along with it but if they bothered to look they would have found some errors, mixed in with massive exageration along with honest attempts to fix the problems but every time he would start working to fix one someone would block his bot and drag him into a discussion for a month which prevented him from fixing it. So yes I understand the problem very well thank you. Kumioko (talk) 17:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

off topic

Lack of tools has nothing to do with it. Its the complete set of blinders you wear when you ignore anything that doesn't agree with your point of view which you proove time and again in so many discussions. -DJSasso (talk) 18:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Just because I'm not stupid enough to believe the load of bull your shoveling because I know better doesn't mean I have blinders on. It also doesn't mean I am ignoring anythign that I don't agree with. It means I know the backstory of the situation well enuogh that I'm not going to go along with something that I know to be completely false just to win browny points for future RFA run or something. What you are saying is just flat wrong and whether you agree with my assessment or not is irrelevant. It also means that I am not going to sheepishly go along with something just because your an admin or just because you beleive what your saying. Kumioko (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2013 (UTC) You proove my point in this very statement. What has my being an admin have to do with anything? Nothing. This is your problem you assume that anything said by any admin is wrong because they are an admin therefore they must be wrong and bad. You clearly don't know the back story in his situation, you just chose the side that is against the so called horrible admins and arbs and are using it as a way to attack them like you usually do. Without proof or basis. You just like to make pot shots. -DJSasso (talk) 18:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Again you assume bad faith. I meant that as a broad statement, "generally construed". It doesn't directly haev anything with you being an admin and you know it. Yuor just trying to spin things to the right again. And you are the one making pot shots at me. This doesn't even have anything to do with this discussion anymore. Your just trying to justify a bad decision by Arbcom by reducing my credibility. If you had a strong case for how Arbcom did the right thing or Rich didn't you wouldn't have to do that. You would be able to provide facts. But there are few facts in this case. Just accusations, assumptions, bad decisions and broad sanctions. Now either get back on topic or drop it because I'm tired of you trying to distract this discussion by pointing fingers at me. Kumioko (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC) It's not really an asumption, but a knowledge of your history. Regardless, you're losing sight of your own topic here. If there is a feeling that the terminology "broadly construed" is not properly understood, applied or desired, then discussion has to occur about (1) what the purpose it intends to serve (and please, spare us the "lazy admins" junk. You should be better than that) and (2) What could be considered in its place that can achieve the desired result. If you are truly interested in discussing change, I might suggest a village pump would be a better place for such a discussion. Especially since it can be framed as a general point rather than a whine about a specific editor. Resolute 18:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Knowledge of my history would show that I am passionate about the project and have on occassion become frustrated at various editors or admins who are violating policy and allowed to get away with it while others are punished for the same thing or worse because they aren't an admin or willing to simply roll over and take it. I do agree that this isnt the best place for such a discussion and the village pump is as good a place as any. I stated as such above a couple times when I said this discussion wouldn't go anywhere. I would also mention that I did not start this discussion. I just agree with the original posters general comment that Rich got the shaft and the project is worse off for it. I'm not going to bother submitting a discussion about it though because all that will happen is a bunch of folks like yourself will come out, say I'm being pointy, accuse me of stirring up trouble or some other dumb shit. Because that's how editors who try and change the process or make the site better are treated here. Like idiots. So no thank you I have had enough insults and assumptions made about my character here. I don't need to do it again for a discussion that will end in the same fashion as every other change, in failure. Because even if I was the most respected editor in the project, Wikipedia editors can never come to a consensus on anything. Kumioko (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Well that is sort of the problem Kumioko. If all you ever do is whine about it and never actually do anything to try and fix it, which is what your history shows, then of course people are going to show up and say you are just being pointy because your history shows all you ever do is show up to complain about a topic but never actually try to do anything to fix it when people suggest that you do. If you want to make change and have your attempts to be taken seriously you have to actually try to make a change as opposed to sit around and complain all the time. -DJSasso (talk) 19:28, 13 June 2013 (UTC) No the problem is I have tried to do something about a lot of things. So have a lot of other editors. And there is always some editor or admin "whining" about how we are "whining", trying to discredit them with old dirt or insulting them by telling them how little they know and how stupid they are. But I would rather show up and make a comment in a discussion than do nothing like many seem more than willing to do and what seems to be necessary to become an admin. If I thought for a second that opening up a discussion about changing the tendency to use the terms "Broadly construed" or anything else had a chance of passing I would. But I'm not going to open myslef up in another venue so you, Resolute or any number of other editors can come by, snipe comments, throw insults and generally show what an ass they are just like you are doing here to prove a point. I can't change it, Jimbo doesn't want to or doesn't have the power, you can't change it and the community is incapable. So were screwed no matter what we do. Give me one good reason why I should start a meaningful discussion to change a bad policy/process just so you and your friends can come by and throw stones and derail the discussion as you have done here. How is that a good use of my or anyone else's time. Kumioko (talk) 19:36, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Quite simply, if you aren't willing to try and make change, just dropping by every discussion you can to complain is throwing stones. It is sniping. It is everything you keep accusing others of doing. Frankly you are always your best example of what you are complaining about. -DJSasso (talk) 19:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC) Not really, I just don't have faith in the process anymore and I don't have the desire to open up another discussion so you can insult me there too. No thanks, I'll just wait until I file another RFA sometday for that. Why don't you do it? Oh, that's right. Because "broadly construed" is a way for admins to block editors they don't like much faster and easier than doing it the right way. By actually presenting a meaningful violation of policy. Not just making up something like they do so many times with the broadly construed rule. That you are actually defending the practice is disgusting and shows you in a very negative light. I hope you understand that. The sad thing is there are probably folks reading this discussion saying to themselves I am being mean and rude and not even caring about the insults and comments directed at me for suggesting we change this extremely stupid policy or that you are defending it by insulting me. BTW, this is my final reply to your trolling. All your trying to do at this point is piss me off. You have already succeeded in completely derailing and sidetracking the discussion so at this point there is no reaosn to continue and comment to your antagonism. I suggest you go and do some edits or something. There is nothing more to see here. Kumioko (talk) 19:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The person who will read this will be me, and I did. Here is my verdict, first of all user Kumioko does do typos, but hey, does he get blocked for it? No. Reason? Its because it is a talkpage. Second, all other posters here need to focus on Rich's edits and stop whining about it. If its so damn hard for you folks to clean up after one man mess, allow me to do it. I wont complain to a single admin, just because one guy does some poor editing. Maybe Rich need a guy like me or Kumioko to help him. Have anyone thought of it? Had ArbCom thought of it?--Mishae (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

That's a very interesting idea, Mishae. Does anyone with the technical expertise know if it is workable? There is a group to approve bots, but who do you go to if you need help with something, the bot equivalent of proofreading? 203.81.67.122 (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking at the language of the Farmbrough case again and it doesn't seem to have the "broadly construed" language. The exact wording of the remedy is "Rich Farmbrough is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia. For the purposes of this remedy, any edits that reasonably appear to be automated shall be assumed to be so." And that was modified by a motion "...to make only completely manual edits (i.e. by selecting the [EDIT] button and typing changes into the editing window)". And there is a section on identifying automated edits by "speed, number, timing, and consistency". Nothing about tildes or keyclicks. So this case at least seems to rely heavily on the judgment and interpretations of the blocking admin; in this case it is the AE admin. And since the block was done from Arbitration Enforcement, there is little likelihood of another admin coming along and unblocking. If I am reading this correctly, Rich would have to appeal this to the same AE admin who has already blocked him twice.

So Kumioko, there are probably more people watching this thread than just the ones you have had unfruitful previous discussions with. If you have some idea of what is wrong and how to fix it, this might be as good a place as any for your two cents worth.203.81.67.122 (talk) 09:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, the whole discussion is ridiculous. Rich is a very prolific editor, but his interpersonal skills are.. well, lacking to the extreme. He was determined to use automation no matter what, even though there had been numerous issues with his use of automated tools in the past. He deliberately violated the spirit AND letter of his restrictions on numerous times. The reason for the wording on his restriction (which I will remind all, he voluntarily agreed to), was because he continually was searching for new loopholes to continue down his path. He denied doing so, until he was caught "red-handed", so to speak, and then apologized to his supporters for being caught. That is why the explicit restriction to what any other editor would get by hitting the edit button and typing in the changes. (claiming the four tildes is "automation" is a red herring). I understand wanting to support your friend, Mishae, but you are warping this situation beyond belief. SirFozzie (talk) 11:28, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Your right this discussion is ridiculous because it was started with the naive hopes that Jimbo would do anything about it or coudl. Neither of which is true. It would also assume that the Arbcom would undo the bad decision they made which is also not going to happen. So the pedia will continue to lose out on all the valuable contributions that aren't being done so a few mistakes can be avoided. Its really a shameful reason to block someone but that's what it boils down too. Kumioko (talk) 16:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

From the enforcement request: "...it appears very improbable that this sort of repetitive change was made without some sort of automation, if only the copy/paste or search/replace functions (which are forbidden under the terms of the decision, which prohibits 'any automation whatsoever')." 203.81.67.122 (talk) 12:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

To SirFozzie: And I understand the other users desire to block someone for something and then make a happy "we got rid of a bad editor". You know, look at it this way, every edit a user makes is either helping the project or ruins it. Then, we have some edits like the ones of mine or Rich's that is both. On one hand, yes we do for example add a category, or remove unsourced material, or expanding on a subject... But sometimes for example we do typo here and there, or we condense something (my case), or we simply cite a wrong site... In such cases, we don't need blocks, we need explanation. You might ask, how much? Well it depends on a person. Let me use an example. I'm a part of WikiProject plants (by the way if Kumioko is sick and tired of fighting in WikiProject USA, he can join that one, I personaly invite him :)), and I had for an issue there once, i.e, putting a site as an external link that was just advertising site. Sure, I knew that advertising on Wikipedia is prohibited but I didn't knew that using such sites as Dave's Garden will not be appropriate to use as an externbal link jusdt because its not encyclopedic. So, how did our little conflict got resolved? A user came to my talkpage, a piecefully without "You have violated such and such policy" or "If you will do it again, I will do that...", expained what was my wrong. I understood and never step into the same problem again. Now, I understand that every user have a different problem which require a specific approach. For example, I am on special needs, (yes, I know Wikipedia is not a terapy and this is not an excuse), so after AN/I discussion user named Justin suggested himself and we even became best friends and so far I have a lot less conflicts. And no, I am not here to just help my friend, I am here just like user Kumioko to look for justice. Sure Wikipedia is no court and not a lawyering lobby, but it have rules and guidelines which are sometimes too broad and aren't specific... As far as the ridiculous discussion goes, heh, in my opinion its not that bad. I gave a concrete statement assuming that Jimbo will read it, but instead it went from I said to they said, and then completely went off topic. Thankfully I brought the discussion back, and we should continue on this topic to be honest, since the case have lots of hooks that are loose.

Now, the anonymous user asked me a keen question here to which I will keenly reply: bot equivalent of proofreading? you asked. A bot is a bot, so yes, it should be able to proofread. If not, can we write a code for it? Absolutelly! However, do talk to Village Pump guys...--Mishae (talk) 23:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting case of "verifiability not truth"?

I know you like these. See Wikipedia:ANI#Article Vera Renczi continuously vandalized. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I think there was a discussion on your talk page not so long ago about an encyclopedia of crime seeded with bogus information. I wonder if that may have something to do with it... 86.121.18.17 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Verifiability Not Truth" is one of the biggest blunders of Wikipedia's official doctrine. The standard for inclusion actually, in real life, is verifiability and veracity. Wrong information is wrong information and has no "right" to be perpetuated at WP just because some so-called "reliable source" blundered first. Fix it and move along; if somebody attempts to restore wrong information, fight it. Accuracy is the main thing, the only thing. Carrite (talk) 02:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Note well that 'Verifiability not truth' is long since gone from policy. It was a misleading formulation that led to many problems. It's finally dead now. I have no comment on the current example other than that h2g2 should not be used as a source for anything.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, it is not as gone as you think it is. I do agree that the slogan as an unquestioned and unquestionable axiom to end debates has lost its luster. Carrite (talk) 17:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Carrite, but from experience I can tell you there are a huge number of "Wikipedia rules are laws" editors who do take Verifiability Not Truth at face value (and interpret it literally with no exemptions). They tend to bully till they get their way because.... well policy does state it. They don't subscribe to the view that if am otherwise "reliable" source got information wrong then in that case the source is not reliable anymore. To them a source is either reliable or not in all cases. I see this at many articles, and it has to go to RS/N quite a bit.Camelbinky (talk) 03:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

"Verifiability not truth" is sometimes wrong, but the alternatives are worse. Removing verifiable information because e.g. the subject of an article said it was wrong is a dangerous path to follow, as there are a number of pitfalls; the subject may be mistaken, may have reasons to lie, may be misquoted by some trusted editor who claims that the subject said X or Y... Having a single reliable source shouldn't be used as an excuse to post some clearly incorrect things, but not having a reliable source but knowing the "truth" nevertheless should be even less acceptable. Carrite above states "Accuracy is the main thing, the only thing.", but how are we going to decide what is "accurate" if not by following reliable sources? Fram (talk) 07:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Do note that I said "verifiability AND veracity." Nobody is arguing that truthful information should not be verifiable — which means "attributable to a valid published source." Note again that I'm not using the word "reliable," which is yet another blunder of official doctrine, in my view. This idea of "reliable sources" was apparently conjured up by a philosopher rather than a historian... Sources are sources, some are better than others, nothing in this world is automatically "reliable" for everything in every instance. We must use good sources with accurate information, seeking when available scholarly sources... We must weigh evidence rationally and make editorial judgments about content, striving at all times to achieve NPOV. Carrite (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 16:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Something that many folks seem to miss in the VNT debate is the simple concept that once a "reliable source" has been shown to be wrong about "fact x" it is no longer a "reliable source" for "fact x" and thus is no longer acceptable for verification of "fact x". "Reliable source" is not an unconditional status conferred on a publication/publisher for all eternity, it is subject to rebuttal in each and every instance that the source is cited. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:41, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I've got a half-finished essay at WP:TRUTHMATTERS that may be helpful. Gigs (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

This case demonstrates that "original research" belongs on talk pages; sometimes editors have been criticized (claims of "not a forum", etc.) for trying to work out the details of crime reports logically on those pages, but they should not be. Original research doesn't belong in our articles but it can guide our research; in this case, someone came up with a source saying the claim "lacked authority". There is no a priori way to guess for sure whether the story is badly garbled or entirely invented, and its notability means that it is rightly covered in the encyclopedia. We do as much service by having an article about a well known myth that lets people know it is a myth as we do by having an article about a fact and proving that, and sometimes we do best by letting people know that no one knows which, but here is the data we have. Wnt (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that. We should seek truth in our research. That said, if a certain topic has controversial facts that keep taking over talk page discussions, I can understand the need to declare that topic finished at some point. Gigs (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

It might help to point out that "verifiability not truth" was ditched a while ago and is not Wikipedia policy. The phrasing is now: Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. Fits less neatly on a placard, but it's better policy. Formerip (talk) 23:20, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo

Jimbo, you look like Hugh Jackman to me. Albacore (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I compared it, sad, but I need to disagree with you here... If his cheeks will get skinnier, then I might change my status.--Mishae (talk) 04:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Your cheque is in the mail Albacore.. Try Daniel Craig with a beard and you'll be closer..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:07, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Daniel Craig does not have the singing voice, though. Important consideration. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know who he does look like but he is cute and, in a kind way, interesting :) Miss Bono (zootalk) 16:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo doesn't always obey the rules of space and time...but he clearly is doing some time traveling. --Onorem (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

NSFW - Wikimedia Commons video

I encourage people to go to commons and work to explain to the community there some of the concepts behind Hostile environment sexual harassment. I encourage everyone to seriously consider whether it is appropriate behavior to upload a clearly non-notable film of someone using his penis to paint a picture of a Wikipedia volunteer. It is harassment, it is trolling, and I am deeply disappointed to have to point this out to some people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hi Jimbo, a friend of mine told me about this video that was uploaded to Wikimedia Commons a few days ago. My friend is not an old fashioned person, but he was surprised to see this video on Commons. In particular he told me: "I thought Wikipedia is for education." This video is about the painting of your portrait, and I am very interested to find out what do you think about this video? Thanks. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 03:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Ha. Unsurprisingly for something uploaded by russavia. Soon or later Commons will be a happy place to host all the porn video files and Mattbuck or Niabot would defend them "they're unique, educational. Commons is not censored!" -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Is Niabot still around? As for me, I nominate low quality sexuality images for deletion when they're uploaded. -mattbuck (Talk) 18:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC) It should be known that the thread opener here is User:Vigilant. Why are they not being blocked? Russavia (talk) 05:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Probably because a month ago I I was user User:Captain Occam :-) but the post is about Jimbo's opinion on the video and not about me. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC) @Jimmy: Whack-a-Mole costs money in an arcade, Whack-a-Troll can be played for free. @Mattbuck, the issue isn't vaguely out-of-focus images of peni, it's clearly out-of-scope images of peni. Carrite (talk) 22:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Plural of penis is penes in British English or penises in American. Peni is an improper and irregular slang, just thought I'd pass that on. As one can see, User:Vigilant (the IP) is a troll. He didn't just find out about this video (which I think is awesome by the way!), he's been talking about it on "that" website for some days now, and has been encouraging others to troll with it. Seeing as no-one took his encouragement, he's taken to the trolling himself. Jimmy, you are clearly being trolled here; I'd suggest you tell these Wikipediocracy clowns to let you be. :) Russavia (talk) 06:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Russavia, it is clear that I'm being trolled, yes. But not by the person alerting me to your latest viciousness towards me, but by you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Yeah. Hey Russavia. That IP is not me. Thought you should know. Wikivigilant (talk) 06:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Thank you, Wikivigilant or should I call you simply, Vigilant :-) 76.126.142.59 (talk) 06:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Pricasso is a notable artist.[3] He clearly has an excellent command of his tool. We should be very pleased to host his work. Even if the portrait does look like it's the wrong race... Wnt (talk) 07:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Nice 15 minutes of fame. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 07:15, 14 June 2013 (UTC) I agree that the IP isn't Vigilant. It's just another tiresome Wikipediocracy troll. Prioryman (talk) 07:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC) It's bloody well apparent that you cannot defend this, given your personal attacks on whomever the messenger may be. No Personal Attacks isn't just for friends; it's a way of life. Mangoe (talk) 09:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC) They can both be right at the same time. This is, however, one of those rare cases where the Wikipediocracy set is more right than the other side. Resolute 14:17, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Curious that as work progresses on User:Russavia/Pricasso, Mr. Pricasso there paints a picture of Jimbo Wales. Jimbo's celebrity status would charitably be described as minor (no offense), thus an odd subject choice considering the gallery of his usual famous types. Given Russavia's frequent antagonism of Jimbo of late, a curious person would wonder if there is a quid pro quo at play here; say, an article created in exchange for a custom photo of an enemy with which to adorn it. Tarc (talk) 12:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Indeed. I've removed the image and the link to the video from the userspace draft, and would recommend treating attempts at reinsertion as BLP violations, as the very concept of the image is evidently meant to be degrading and insulting. The files have been proposed for deletion at Commons (I've also blocked the 76.126.142.59 above as an obvious troll though.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Russavia has edit-warred the image back into his draft, which is regrettable. I'm still of the opinion that this is a BLP-enforceable issue and would like to hear opinions on that (though not from the usual partisans on either side). Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Russavia is right - it definitely belongs. And Tarc, that conspiracy theory is unjustifiable - not compared to the very high bar of evidence the same people are demanding around here for things like the Square Enix WikiProject!!! Wnt (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC) (cf. Barack Obama "Joker" poster for a reminder about artistic license - it is not our job to muzzle artists) It doesn't take a conspiracy theory to determine that the fact that the artist created an image of the Wikipedia founder on exactly the same day when somebody started to work on a Wikipedia article for him is not a coincidence. I'm not saying it was necessarily meant as an attack by the artist – he might have meant it as a jocular tribute of sorts. I also can't be sure if it was originally the artist's own idea or that of the Wikipedia editor who contacted him. But it certainly smells of an intended jibe on the part of the editor, given their prior history with Jimbo, and under these circumstances the fact that the subject of the painting is regarding it as an act of "viciousness" must be taken into account. It is perfectly understandable that the painting comes across to the subject as an insult, since the very act of painting it is basically just an extended practical metaphor of "I fuck you". Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:39, 14 June 2013 (UTC) The "theory" is rather airtight as far as anyone with a shared of intelligence and common sense is concerned. Russavia has been antagonizing and trolling Jimbo for several years now over Commons issues. Do you really think a dick artist just happened to paint a picture, and record himself doing it, of non-celebrity Jimbo Wales at the same time Russavia just happened to be creating an article about the painter? @Fut.Perf. may be good to head to WP:BLPN for non-party opinions, as your question may get lost in the haze here. Tarc (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC) I don't enjoy PI work, but suppose Russavia did contact the painter asking if he would contribute some video to Wikimedia Commons. Perfectly legitimate. And if the painter didn't have video (or video available for free license), but thought it was a good idea to make one for the purpose .. who would he draw a portrait of, the Queen of England? No, I think it's pretty obvious Jimbo would be his natural pick. I hope he will regard it as a tribute to be on another list of famous people. I find it flabbergasting that you would regard a conspiratorial role for Russavia as "obvious", yet people think that having an entire WikiProject devoted to showcasing the work of a single company, getting its current products for sale showcased on the Main Page as a Featured Ad like clockwork every six months -- that is still treated as just coincidence! I imagine "fans" go out and wear clapboards and mascot suits in front of company headquarters as a spontaneous surge of volunteerism too... Wnt (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Meanwhile, it looks like Future Perfect has won the edit war the old-fashioned way - re-reverted to his version and protected it. Congratulations, you're the king of the userspace draft. Wnt (talk) 16:51, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Oh, please; you're about as "flabbergasted" as Captain Renault was "shocked", so save your faux outrage for someone who might actually be duped by it, Wnt. You've been squarely in the Russavia fanclub whenever any of these discussions crop up, no one here takes anything you have to say at face value. Tarc (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Whose "fanclub" are you in? The issue here is censorship - you're for it, I'm against it. I'm not anybody's henchman. Wnt (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2013 (UTC) The main issue here is whether there is really any mission to serve as a repository for this stuff; "no censorship" in that context is a vote for being indiscriminate about the material, as long as it doesn't have copyright problems. The presenting issue at the moment is that the files being discussed seem to be a calculated provocation. Raising the issue of censorship is more or less a kind of personal attack upon those who object to indiscriminate storage, and a kind of crusade against "prudery". It does not give the impression to me of having any real intent towards genuinely educational intent, much less the original and more justifiable purpose of supporting the encyclopedia projects. Mangoe (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC) This is Wnt's standard mode of operation, to reach for the "c" word without actually taking the time to see what the discussion is actually about. I'm not opposed to dick art and find the concept rather amusing, though obviously the very concept of how this art is created is going to be offensive to some. If the reliable sourcing supports the nobility of the artist (and it appears to do so), then by all means move it into mainspace. But Wnt well knows that Russavia and Jimbo have been at loggerheads over Commons porn problems and such lately, as do we all. The notion that Russavia created an article on Pricasso at the same time Pricasso painted a picture of Jimbo and allowed for it's free use on Commons, with no off-wiki collaboration or correspondence whatsoever between the two, strains all manner of credulity. The collaboration is clear, and the picture was commissioned to insult/degrade the subject. Tarc (talk) 18:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Hmmm, so if I have this straight, opposing censorship is a personal attack on everyone who believes in it, because it suggests they might be censorious, but denigrating a contributor for getting a notable artist to submit video of his technique and writing an article about it, suppressing the publication of this by admin-protecting a draft according to your own personal preferred version, and coming up with some conspiracy theory about why an artist who paints famous people wouldn't possibly have thought of painting Jimbo Wales when submitting something to Commons, unless the idea came from someone else ... these are all just valid administrative processes? Wnt (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Nothing to do with censorship. As long as you keep carrying that tune, your responses will be skimmed and largely ignored. Tarc (talk) 19:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC) People talk about garbage content and you call that "censorship". I don't know that he's a notable artist— my standards are high, at any rate, and in my opinion my teenage daughter does comparable work with more conventional materials— but the point of the art, even in its own context, is to create something to offend people. The point here is to put more stuff in commons which is deliberately offensive to most of mankind. My interpretation of Commons is that there's one group of people who are using it as a vehicle for publishing low-quality material that other sites either reject or hide because they have community standards, and there's another group (among which I number you, Wnt) which defends this useless material in order to make a statement about "censorship"— which comes out as an attack on having community standards in general. I do not object to "not censored" in the sense that I can accept that genuinely encyclopedic (and more generally educational) coverage of subjects should not be suppressed only because someone is offended by mention of it. But what I see happening in commons and here is that the offensive nature of the material is being used to defend it from criticism on other grounds; sexual imagery in particular is protected, as such, from being removed because of its low quality or its irrelevance to a real educational mission, simply because it is sexual. When people do object on these grounds, you and other people like you accuse us, the objectors, of being prudes. Your continued refusal to get our message straight comes across to me as a campaign that doesn't have anything to do with defending the quality of the project. Mangoe (talk) 20:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Yes, I am offended, shocked and offended that Wikipedia hosts and endorses garbage that blasphemes the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously an example of the atheist liberals who run it and their campaign to destroy good Christian society. Thankfully we have brave Christians fighting the good fight against them. --108.38.191.162 (talk) 20:39, 14 June 2013 (UTC) Good thing there are still lots of brave liberal Jews like myself who fight the good fight against Christians pushing their version of "morality" upon others. Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion.Camelbinky (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, excellent points, but aren't you paid by WMF and hence not a volunteer.

No, I am not paid by the WMF. All my work for Wikipedia is as a volunteer. It has always been so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:16, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, I am not sure you realize that it is much worse than simply uploading that video. It looks like the video and the portrait were ordered in purpose to troll the project and you. Please see here and here. As you see Russavia was repeatedly asked, if he "asked/encouraged the artist to create the image and video in any way, shape or form", and in all situations Russavia has ignored the questions. 76.126.143.8 (talk) 16:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

As a community we may not be legally subject to the laws regarding workplace sexual harassment. However, whether we are subject to these laws or not, or whether Jimbo is an employee or a volunteer, should be irrelevant. We should hold ourselves to the same standards of behavior that are required of any American voluntary organization. GabrielF (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I hope you will make your views known over at commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jimbo and Gabe about the this video, but I think the prior edit has a valid and separate point about Jimbo really being a paid wiki person vice volunteer, but that point should be separate from this discussion about that sordid video.PumpkinSky talk 20:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, your concern about harassment can be quite valid, but those of us who oppose censorship quite naturally oppose the use of "sexual harassment" as judicial legislation to force employers to ban all "pornography". The issue is by no means clear-cut, as our article suggests. I would hope that a reasonable court, if it had jurisdiction, would ask whether Pricasso's painting was really intended as an act of harassment meant to make Wikipedia a hostile place for you to take part in - and I think it would find that no, it is simply him doing homage in his own peculiar way. If you find that a prick-painting is a revolting means of tribute, well, imagine how God must feel when he hears our prayers! The other issue is whether Wikimedia has control over this, and that is even more clear cut - Wikimedia quite deliberately disclaims editorial control, leaving to individuals the power to determine what to upload and its legality, as well as its appropriateness.

All that said, both these things are influenced by the underlying consideration that you are a celebrity and a public figure. People respect you for all you've done, and no video of a prick-painting is ever going to change that. I can understand that if the Wikipediocracy crowd singled out some volunteer they dislike (there are so many) and tried something like this with the intent that when you looked him up on Google, this is what you'd find, that that would be more humiliating, while having much less artistic basis, and thus far more likely to be intended to harass, and thus more likely to offend the community at large and their sense of personality rights - a legal issue which I should add may be valid, but which I don't understand - the thing is, we generally assume a notable artist isn't going to target Joe Schmoe to annoy. I was hoping you'd take this whole episode as a complement to your importance in the world. Wnt (talk) 20:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

What's this got to do with Wikipediocracy? Russavia isn't a contributor and not exactly popular there. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 20:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, one regularly sees contributors there expressing their admiration for Russavia. (Or maybe I'm interpreting an emoticon as "applause" when it's actually "slow hand clap".) Anyway, I think this discussion is now closed with the recommendation from Jimbo that we all head over to Commons and sort things out. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

"Well, looks like we got ourselves a reader.." -- Bill Hicks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hillbillyholiday81 (talk • contribs)

Well, to give an idea of how contorted things have gotten, Mattbuck voted to delete, and JN466 voted to keep. I feel like I'm the only one who sticks to my own opinion, though I suppose everyone thinks that. Wnt (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

It's like Chris Hayes's graphic about sides in the NSA leak thing. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Under the special BLP enforcement authority, I have topic-banned Russavia from editing concerning Jimmy Wales. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

....Which he wasn't doing anyway, except on talk pages which your topic-ban omits. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

You have misread things. Your further input here is unlikely to be helpful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia and Mattbuck are only two of the numerous parasites on the encyclopedia and its associated projects. There are many, many, many more users on the encyclopedia who are members of mutual-admiration societies and power-playing cabals, interested only in intrigue and creation of independent fiefdoms than in the overall betterment of the project. That Wikipedia lacks any institutional structure to deal with them is a problem resultant from an idiotic, techno-libertarian-utopian fantasy. Private bureaucracies have sprung up to fill the power vacuums created by a lack of functioning institutions, namely the cabals I mentioned above and the POV pushers and abusive administrators who facilitate them. We need to end the madness, leave the illusion. Wikipedia should have content review boards (for FA, GA, DYK, and particularly contentious subjects), administrator control boards with actual power, and an elected assembly to unify them and give power to actual content creators. Anyone claiming that such a proposition is "bureaucratic" ignores the opaque, disunited, and self-interested bureaucracies, fiefdoms, and cabals that already exist. Wer900 • talk 23:37, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

2012 Wikipedian of the Year prize money

I am pleased to announce that I have received the $5000 prize money for the 2012 Wikipedian of the Year. It took a while because there was some problem on the method of transfer, mostly from my end but it was finally sorted. I'll like to thank Jimbo for the prize and for his offer to pay my airline ticket to Hong Kong for Wikimania, though I had to decline. And I realized that the prize money had been a source of mini controversy around Jimbo through no fault of his own, and then the trouble he went through with my original chosen method of money transfer that didn't work, my sincere apology for any inconveniences caused by the matter. I also thank all those that showed interest on the matter. Demmy (talk) 14:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad that's finally sorted out!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Legal threats by American Academy of Financial Management

On a recent changes patrol, I reverted an IPs edit on the American Academy of Financial Management article here [4] which contained comments about legal action. I requested that they use the talk page instead. I now find myself being included in the legal action for my edit? here…[5] Please advise.Theroadislong (talk) 13:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Have a search for that "institution" on ANI ... indeed, there's a thread there right now. It's clearly a joke/unfiled "lawsuit" (the wording isn't even legal). Not sure how they'll serve you a summons :-) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I love how at the end of the notice it say "this communication is being kept secret"... so much for it being secret!Camelbinky (talk) 13:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

All the same, it would do no harm to contact the WMF Legal Dept. Email the General Counsel wmf:User:Gbrigham on gbrigham@wikimedia.org. JohnCD (talk) 13:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

They're already aware of this situation, but if someone wishes to contact them about it again then it'll do no harm. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 13:57, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Ooh, looks like someone using scary language to try and frighten people into allowing them to suppress criticism! IANAL, but I read Popehat enough to know a threat of a Strategic lawsuit against public participation when I see one. Resolute 22:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Status of edit-conflict technology

As expected with edit-conflicts being considered a worldwide problem, I have found many groups who have tried various new algorithms to merge multiple revisions and auto-correct for edit-conflicts, as noted in article "Merge (revision control)" such as "weave merge". Plus, as could be expected with new technology, some algorithms are far beyond what is needed to simply append 2 replies at the same line number (and some complex merge algorithms are slow). Yet, the implications of the technology are exciting long-term; for example, it would be great if 5 editors changed a page, and the 3rd editor moved paragraph #7 to be paragraph #12, when meanwhile editor 5 changed old paragraph #7, and the merged updates were auto-moved to appear within #12. However, for now, the most-frustrating edit-conflicts are 2-reply conflicts (at the same line number) or simple changes to adjacent lines, which are much easier to merge. I have been looking at ways to merge most of Wikipedia's 2-reply conflicts, in reading a copy of the C-language source code for "diff3" (diff3.c at http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/mirrors/OpenBSD/src/usr.bin/rcs/diff3.c). Originally, diff3 was designed to only merge the separate so-called "hunks" of text (separated by 2 or 3 unchanged lines), but it can already show 2 sets of lines in conflict at the same line number (called "overlaps"?), which is the first step to inserting both sets as 2 adjacent replies, in the merged revision. Although future pages could be encoded as complex document structures, with internal line id-codes, those structures are not needed for the 99.99% of edits which do not move paragraphs quickly. I think some simple changes to diff3.c could resolve 95% (or 98% perhaps?) of all recent edit-conflicts. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Coffee

Bagged and tagged. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 22:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Had to make an account just to write this! Just want to say thanks for lunch today, had a great time. I am organising a small unofficial 'Wikimeet' for us and some ArbCom members, as well as my wife and her work colleague. Will e-mail the details later today. Take it easy buddy. --20 Chicken Nuggets (talk) 20:35, 15 June 2013 (UTC) This appears based on my cursory look at checkuser to be banned user Technoquat. In case anyone wonders what this means, I ate (alone) at McDonald's earlier today. I suppose I was recognized.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC) If you'd invited me to join you, I would have come. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)