Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 05:46, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Ilia Topuria

– New discussion.

Filed by Nswix on 14:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ilia Topuria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nswix (talk · contribs)
• Cassiopeia (talk · contribs)
• DrakeXper (talk · contribs)
• Lemabeta (talk · contribs)
• Caucasian Man (talk · contribs)
• BasilE99 (talk · contribs)
• FCBWanderer (talk · contribs)
• WikiJuan (talk · contribs)
• Gsfelipe94 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Concerning the subjects nationality, he was born in Germany (which according to this doesn't entitle you to German nationality, we've all moved on from this a year ago). But where it gets tricky is he was raised in Georgia and claims to be a dual-citizen of Spain. But Spain doesnt allow dual citizenship for Georgian citizens. He fights out of Spain, wheres he's lived since he was 15 (so I vote that per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject established themselves). While others say he must be Georgian, because he walks out to compete under a Georgian flag. All of which is complicated by the fact that you can find sources that call him 'Georgian', 'Spanish', 'Spanish-Georgian', 'German-born Spanish-Georgian', etc.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Ilia Topuria#Nationality, Talk:Ilia Topuria#Citizenship

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Either tell us to use all, none or one of the nationalities

Summary of dispute by Cassiopeia

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Base on MOS:NATIONALITY guidelines, the subject current resident and citizen where he was notable should be on the LEAD section which is Spain and not other country where he was born (Germany doesnt allow dual citizenship) or Georgia where he lived from 7-15 y/o where Spain does have dual citizenship with Georgia. We have a lot of cases in mixed martial arts fighter whereby editors keep on changing subject countries in lead based on their ethnicity/bloodline/heritage/where their parents or which country(ies)/the whole world that the subject wanted to represent and not based on where they were born or where they lived when they are notable as per Wikipedia MOS:NATIONALITY guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 09:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by DrakeXper

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ilia Topuria doesn't have Georgian nationality. He officially has Spanish nationality and represents, as a UFC fighter, both Georgia and Spain.

According to MOS:NATIONALITY, I think the correct way to resolve this discussion is:

• We affirm Topuria is of Spanish nationality, with mention that he is of Georgian origin/ethnicity.

• We eliminate nationality from the equation as it is controversial, and simply state on the lede that he is "a Georgian and Spanish professional mixed martial artist..." omitting the mention of "nationality" in the infobox.

DrakeXper (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Lemabeta

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Both Georgia and Spain don't allow dual citizenship to each other, yet all the sources available claim that he has both Georgian and Spanish citizens. MOS:Nationality says that when there's a controversial or unclear cases nationality can be omitted, as shown in an example of Nicolaus Copernicus under MOS:Nationality. Therefore this(taking out Georgian or Spanish from the heading page) is one of the solution we can use to resolve this dispute.--Lemabeta (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Or an ethnicity can play a deciding factor as passport is unclear and be written as Georgian, until further clarification. Lemabeta (talk) 15:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Caucasian Man

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

First, he officially represents Georgia at the UFC. It is not just the flag, he is officially listed as Georgian in the UFC: https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria

Every source claims he holds dual citizenship. If we go with wikipedia guidelines, even if he only held Spanish citizenship, his origin is relevant as he became known as a Georgian fighter and represents his country of origin. That's what the wikipedia guidelines at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context say: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability" Due to the reasons mentioned above, that "unless" is relevant here and he must be listed as a Georgian, granted. Thus, we can list the subject as "Georgian" or "Georgian and Spanish". Can't live "Georgian" out.

Summary of dispute by BasilE99

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by FCBWanderer

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by WikiJuan

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Gsfelipe94

Topuria should be listed as Georgian and a relevant mention for him being based on Spain should also be added. The matter of fact is that he's chosen to officially represent Georgia in UFC related issues (walkout gear and official info on the main media), but that doesn't stop him from also carrying his Spanish roots. We've had several fighters do it before and I'm pretty this would not be an issue if he was born there instead of Germany. What Cassiopeia brings to the table is an unidimensional view (just like she brought up when we had issues changing fighters' last names when they got married - luckily that's not an issue anymore), so I don't think we should list him as Spanish based on that. A good example for it is Diego Lopes who is a Brazilian fighter based in Mexico. We don't list him as Mexican based on what Cassiopeia said. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Gsfelipe94 I suggest you to read MOS:NATIONALITY. It is not about what country he wants to represents or his root. As per changing fighter names of the articles, I still stand by WP:COMMONNAME name to change the article names but not just because a subject married and automatically the subject name is changed, due to recent marriage and a small hand full of sources against 5 years of sources, as many editors (especially MMA editors do not understand the Wikipedia guidelines and do not care about Wikipedia guidelines) as they just want to edit which what seems to be reasonable of their standard but not per Wikipedia guidelines. It is tired and takes a lot of my time just to keep the guidelines stand against those editors who does not care about the guidelines - remember, after all this is Wikipedia and Wikipedia have guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 00:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. Wikipedia has tools for situations like this, and one of them is MOS:NATIONALITY. DrakeXper (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

@Gsfelipe94, the example you have given with Diego Lopes is not good for this case.

Ilia Topuria officially only has Spanish nationality even though he is of Georgian origin/ethnicity. According to MOS:NATIONALITY, It should mention that he is of Spanish nationality or, in the worst case, avoid mentioning his nationality to avoid getting into controversies.

But aside from all this, he declares himself Spanish and Georgian, and the official UFC account uses both countries (Georgia and Spain) as representative countries. DrakeXper (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The Diego Lopes example was related to the subject current resident and citizen where he was notable as an unidimensional view. I'm not going to dwell on the other things because every single time we had those situations regarding names it was 1 against everyone else on the same type of behavior and the same arguments above where used (funny that in the end all the articles' titles were moved).

And your example of a tweet wasn't good as well. Plenty of other fighters will fall into the same category (for example when they had Cain Velasquez with both the US and Mexico flags). I'd like to know where is the source that shows he only has Spanish nationality. That's the type of thing that ends discussions, though there's none of it here. It's just a bunch of suppositions as of now. If there's solid evidence of his nationality, then obviously everything else won't matter. I have no agenda whatsoever to list him as Georgian or Spanish. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 23:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

We know that he arrived in Spain when he was 15 years old, and that he became naturalized Spanish.

• "The Georgian by birth (here means origin/blood, etc) and nationalized in Spain [...]"
• "[...] the 25-year-old young man of Georgian parents and naturalized Spanish.

Although sometimes It is stated that he is of dual nationality, in reality, due to the context, what they are referring to is that he feels equally Georgian and Spanish. In the legal dimension, we know that Spain does not admit dual nationality with Georgia.

In any case, and most importantly, if the nationality is way controversial, according to MOS:NATIONALITY, we can omit "nationality" (from the infobox for example) and just say that he is a Georgian and Spanish fighter. Saying that Topuria is just a Georgian working or based in Spain is frankly quite incorrect.DrakeXper (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Ilia Topuria discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by moderator (Ilia Topuria)

I will open this case for preliminary discussion, for the purpose of starting a neutral Request for Comments to resolve the matter of the nationality or nationalities to list for the subject. This case involves a contentious topic, because it involves nationalities in Eastern Europe, which includes all of those countries that were under Soviet domination in the late twentieth century. For this reason, we will use DRN Rule D, so that by agreeing to the rule, the editors have received notice of contentious topic procedures. Do the editors agree that they want moderator assistance, which will consist mostly of formulating an RFC? What does each editor say should be listed as the nationality of the subject? Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Tristan Tate

– New discussion.

Filed by Mr vili on 03:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Draft:Tristan Tate (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mr vili (talk · contribs)
• PARAKANYAA (talk · contribs)
• Robert McClenon (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I'm contesting the refusal to move a Wikipedia article about Tristan Tate to the main namespace, arguing that he meets notability criteria through significant media coverage, his accomplishments as a kickboxing champion, his reality TV appearance, and his extremely high profile criminal case.

Despite presenting various sources to establish his notability independently of his brother Andrew Tate, editor PARAKANYAA disputes the reliability and sufficiency of these sources, labeling many as unreliable and not indicative of standalone notability. My suggestion to resolve the issue through a community "Articles for Deletion" (AfD) discussion has been met with resistance, leading to a deadlock over the article's eligibility for mainspace, prompting me to seek dispute resolution to evaluate the article's merit for inclusion based on Wikipedia's notability standards.

I have done research to find notable sources with WP:SIGCOV, which have all referenced him in significance

• The Independent (UK)
• The Hindustan Times
• Essentially Sports
• Sidekick Boxing
• Sportsbrief
• Sportsrush
• Accumulate.com.au
• BBC News
• Reuters
• The Chess Drum
• Various Romanian news outlets
• Storm Gym
• MoneyMade.io

And so many more sources that you can find via a simple google search

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[1]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Ideally, I would like the article to be moved to mainspace and immediately go through an AfD to settle the matter.

Summary of dispute by PARAKANYAA

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I stand by my opinion that the sources that primarily address Tristan Tate are unreliable or passing mentions. What does address him in depth is solely in reference to the crime case his brother is involved in. The purpose of AfC is to approve articles into main space that the reviewer perceives as having a greater than 50% chance at surviving at AfD: I see virtually no chance this would. Also, I wasn't the first person to decline the draft and I didn't reject it, so he could have simply asked someone else (who would have likely said the same thing). This feels unnecessary. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:59, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Robert McClenon

First, DRN is not a forum for disputes over the acceptance of drafts. They can be discussed at the AFC Help Desk or the Teahouse. Second, I cannot act as a moderator or mediator in this dispute, because I am involved, having previously commented on the draft. I observed that there was a history of sockpuppetry about drafts and articles about Tristan Tate, and that a reviewer should check whether edits to the drafts were made by sockpuppets or by good-faith editors. Third, I am willing to ignore the rule that drafts should only be accepted if the reviewer thinks that there is more than a 50% chance of surviving AFD, because the current editor is proposing that the draft be moved into article space for the purpose of a deletion discussion. It is my opinion that the interests of the encyclopedia will be advanced by a deletion discussion. So, if the filing editor wants to have a deletion discussion, and resubmits the draft for review, I will accept the draft so that it can be nominated for deletion, which will resolve the dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Tristan Tate discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.