Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes?

I want to start this off by making it very, very, very clear that this issue isn't about our non-free content guidelines. Recent conversations on this point have been blurring this distinction and muddling the picture. The non-free content guidelines here are largely irrelevant. With that out of the way...

Starting much earlier this year, but especially in the last month, I've been removing sport logo icons from the infoboxes of university articles, doing so per the last paragraph of WP:MOSLOGO which states "Use of company logos, sports team crests and other copyright protected or trademarked images in articles can usually only be done on a fair use basis (generally as an illustration of the primary subject - eg the IBM logo on the IBM article). Use of such images as icons is nearly always prohibited (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Logos)." It is my belief that this guideline is pretty unequivocal with regards to the use of trademark images. Note that the guideline says "or" not "and" for the 12th word. This is an important distinction.

The concern regarding the use of trademark icons first entered into the WP:MOSLOGO guideline in September of 2008 [1]. It's been evolving since. A version from May of this year [2] shows the intent. This was later reworded to what we have now.

I feel the use of trademark sports logo icons in university infoboxes is inappropriate because:

• Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university. A sports department, if successful, frequently receives media attention. The same applies to other successful departments of universities. When you think of Harvard, most non-Harvard people immediately think of their law school, which is usually ranked either 1st or 2nd in the U.S. The law school has a different crest/logo than the university itself. Since Harvard is so notable for its law school, should we therefore include the law school crest in the infobox as well? Instead, we include only the university's mascot logo. That doesn't make sense.
• We should be including the main crest/seal/logo of a university in its infobox only, as that mark represents the entire university, not just one part of it.
• If we are to include the university's sports logo, we should be including every departmental logo. There's no valid reason to treat these other departments as less than a sports department.
• Reduction of a logo can be lossy. In many of these iconization attempts, the reduction is greater than 75% of the original pixel coverage of the image as used elsewhere on the project.
• It conveys an inaccurate meaning; the university isn't just its sports department any more than Coca-Cola is only Sprite.
• It clutters the infobox.

In particular, this RfC asks:

1. Should icons of trademarks be permitted in infoboxes or should they only be displayed in their full size? (not to be confused with standards on the use of non-trademark flag icons and note definition of icon from the guideline: "For the purposes of this guideline, icons are any small images, including logos, crests, coats of arms, seals and flags.")
2. Should trademarks of a subsidiary organization of a parent organization be displayed in the infobox of a parent organization's article? I.e., should the Sprite logo appear in the infobox on Coca-Cola, or the Marlboro logo appear on the Altria article, or sports logos of university teams appear in the infoboxes of university articles.

Your input welcome. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

When you say trademarked sports logos, do you mean non-free images that also have a trademark or all images with a trademark. In your example, the IBM logo is a free image, so I don't see why it would matter if included in the infobox. MBisanz ^talk 15:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• See the first paragraph of this section. This is irrespective of whether it is fair use or not. Trademarks do exist in full size on many articles. For example, Chevrolet though that example is fair use. The question is, should the Chevrolet trademark appear on the General Motors article as an icon in its infobox? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• I think it's possible we could discuss the validity of the style of iconization of trademarks in infoboxes in the context of non-free images. I'm just concerned it would fracture the discussion. Where that discussion, if it happened, could go is; since we wouldn't permit a fair use icon in an infobox for failing WP:NFCC #8, yet allow free logos as icons, we create a style dichotomy. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Hmm, ok, I would support including sports logos on the theory that many colleges have two primary brands that they promote, the school brand and the athletic brand (of the three major institutions I attended, two operated in this manner and the third didn't have a major sports program). And with the Harvard example, including the sports team in the Harvard article seems like a good idea for presentation purposes since it would be consistent with my general experience at most universities and I can live with the style dichotomy in light of WP's free mission and the asthetical benefit provided by including free logos where possible. MBisanz ^talk 15:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• So we should include trademark logos as icons even if it incurs lossiness? I'd rather see the full size logo used. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• And, to keep this focused on the abstract concept, should we also include trademark logos on parent organization articles such as Altria, General Motors and Procter & Gamble? If not, then why are universities a special case exemption from this? Parent organizations spend huge sums of money marketing their brands, and frequently very little on the parent brand. They're more notable and recognizable for their brands than for their parent organization. Ask 50 people what Altria is, they'll look at you cross-eyed. Ask 50 people what Marlboro is, and most will say a cigarette company. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I think when an organization has a primary and secondary identifier that are recognized by the company and associated with it as such, then it would be appropriate to include both, so for GM I don' think we should include all four brands, but for Chrysler we would want to include both the pentastar and ribbon. Same for Altria where we probably want to include the Phillip Morris crest, but for P&G we wouldn't need to include ever brand logo. MBisanz ^talk 15:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• That creates a pretty fuzzy line. So for some organizations we include subsidiary organization icons in the infobox, but not for others? On what clear criteria? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't have any problem with an article on Altria or GM that had a "brands" section with logos of their major brands. It's definitely within our fair-use guidelines and it adds encyclopedic value, and would be necessary if we're going to allow merged articles. I smell a holy war comng on... Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• I think a university logo belongs in a university infobox, and a sports logo belongs in a sports infobox. If the university's athletics are notable enough to warrant their own article, that's an easy decision. If the university's athletics are not notable enough for their own article, then there should be an athletics section with its own infobox. Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• My take on the matter: The current wording of WP:MOSLOGO is inaccurate, as it implies that all logos are copyrighted (or that "trademarked" comes with the exact same NFCC restrictions). As with so much of the MOS, I'm sure this was done as part of someone's effort to give themselves a bigger hammer to justify removing the things. WP:MOSLOGO should be reverted to either of the mentioned versions (September 2008 or May 2009), or rewritten to the same effect. I have no opinion on the question of whether the logos should be used in the particular context under discussion here. Anomie⚔ 16:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• I would say most emphatically not! This is not fair use, since the articles in question are about the universities, not the sports operations. I know it is popular to deride certain institutions as sports franchises with glorified high schools attached for legal purposes, but such partisanship aside, the sports team is not the purpose of the school or the article. Such use may be arguably fair use on the separate article (if any) about the sports operation; but not on the school's main page. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

However, logos used for athletics are often used to represent the entire university in academic contexts and other non-athletic contexts. This is true many institutions including at Texas A&M, Michigan, Miami, etc. They are valuable marketing identities for their respective institutions, and often, the icon most immediately recognizable to the general public. Therefore, IMHO, their use in the university infoboxes not only useful, but important. Whether it right for a school to do so is not the debate, but the fact is that the culture and identity of many institutions are inexplicably intertwined with their athletics. This does not, by default, make them jock factories. An example on the other end of the spectrum would be Cal-Berkley. In my experience there are some individuals, living outside of Western United States, who believe that "Cal" and "Berkley" are different institutions. Having the script "Cal" logo (a tm PD-text logo) in the infobox actually aids the reader in identifying the institution, and IMO, makes the article better. There seems to be no policy, fair-use or not, against inclusion of both, specifically in the section of the university infobox dealing with athletics. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, we're not talking about fair use images (though there are fair use images involved in this). We're talking about the use of trademarked icons of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment What is missing is a clear policy about the use of trademarked logos in general, which I suppose is more than the scope of this RFC question. We have lots of policy about copyrighted images, but are lacking when it comes to trademarks. Frankly, Wikipedia:Logos#Trademark concerns doesn't offer clear, tangible guidelines for editors. It says U.S. law protects the right of non-owners to use trademarks for purposes of criticism and commentary, but that says nothing about decorative and/or identification usage? The opinion of some editors seems to be "hey, that's not Wikipedia's problem" (perhaps because they feel the Wikipedia:General disclaimer#Trademarks gives them an "out") but shouldn't we be striving to make this encyclopedia's content as freely usable as possible? We also have many images tagged with {{PD-textlogo}} because they are deemed to be not copyrightable because they fail the threshold of originality, but those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law. We have great inconsistency for how these images are used; restraint is evident for File:Sony logo.svg, which only appears on one mainspace article (and not in every article in Category:Sony and its subcategories!) but we seem to allow widespread usage for university team logos, some television shows, etc. I would prefer to see a stronger policy about the use of trademarked images. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I concur with your general assessment. I'd be happy to contribute to a discussion on the use of trademark policy development. But, in the absence of that policy, what is your stance vis-a-vis the use of trademark icons (not full size logos) of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I disagree with the general assessment here. The Sony logo isn't used by choice, not because of restraint. No one wants to use it for every Sony product with an article on Wikipedia. "...those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law." is a misleading statement as almost every decision on Wikipedia is made by non-experts in the law; that doesn't mean we just stop doing everything or making decisions on what to use/not use. My opinion is not exclusively based upon the general disclaimers of Wikipedia, but on copyright laws, legal outcomes, precedent, and our policies and guidelines. While we have inconsistency in how these PD images are used, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or that they even need to be standardized. Individual projects can decide how best to use them as long as they abide by our policies and the law. Can we provide better guidance? Sure. So let's work on that guidance. — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I'd also like to throw in Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos which states that a logo like Sony's mentioned above can be used once in each infobox. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  No, it does not say this. A product logo is fine in an info box, but not the reuse of the company's logo in each of its products' infoboxes is not allowed by that. --MASEM (t) 04:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  "Product logos and corporate logos...whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity." Don't see how that can't be more clear. — BQZip01 — ^talk 12:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  The word "once" says exactly how many times a logo gets a free uncontested use on WP. That's not to say that a logo can't be reused elsewhere if it represented multiple entities, but it does say that it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity. --MASEM (t) 13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  It mentions nothing about "uncontested use" or "it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity." Where am I missing this? — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  "may be used once" (with the rest of the language implies we use a given logo as little as possible, one time being appropriate and undisputed. This also goes along with WP:NFCC#3a about minimal use of non-free works, and as I point out below, the difficulties of systematic bias when you have free vs non-free logos for equivalent institutions. --MASEM (t) 13:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  Yes, but it states it "...may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles..." I read that as it may be used in more than one article, but only once within each article. I think the plural status of this noun is important to note. How do you interpret that? — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  The full sentence (as out of context can lead to the trouble) is Product logos and corporate logos, such as the stylized rendition of the word Dell used by Dell, Inc., whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity. We have multiple logos and we are talking about multiple articles, so it's not the case necessarily of a single logo on multiple articles. Of course, we're not a beuararcy and shouldn't be reading to the exacting letter but consider how the policy is applied through WP, and clearly the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities. --MASEM (t) 23:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  To ignore the wording and go by something else ignores the wording of the guideline in question. I believe you are making this your personal interpretation of policy because nowhere in our policies or guidelines does it state "...the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities.". Again, I believe your motives to be sincere and pure, but I think you are projecting your interpretation into this and ignoring the wording that was chosen. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  Ok, sure. I think that any logo (regardless of trademark and/or copyright status) should certainly be shown on the single article for which it is most appropriate. That means that for a university, I would think the university seal belongs on the top level article (only!) for that university, and the sports team logo belongs (only!) on the top-level article for the sports team. For example, File:PittPanthers.png ought to appear only on the Pittsburgh Panthers article, and File:UofPittsburgh Seal.svg should only be on the University of Pittsburgh article. I think the trademarked sports logo should not be used as a substitute for the copyrighted seal just to get around WP:NFCC so that we have some image on all Pitt articles. Similarly, I think the current usage of the Sony logo is the most appropriate. I fully support the fair-use of copyrighted logos for identification purposes on the single article that the logo is associated with. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I would not assume that these are necessarily "sub-level" articles? Would they not have their own notability to exist on their own to begin with? Sports teams and universities share the same logos, that doesn't necessarily make Notre Dame Fighting Irish football more of a sub article of Notre Dame University than it makes the New England Patriots a sub-article of the National Football League. Because Notre Dame Football, and Basketball, and Ice Hockey and the University share the same PD-textlogo, doesn't mean it reduces the utility in that logo representing those entities in their own stand alone articles. It also doesn't mean universities don't use multiple logos to represent themselves, which is already understood and accommodated by the presence of multiple image fields in the University Infobox.CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

  Each article in Wikipedia is supposed to be a standalone article. The logos may be associated with more than one article, not just a main article. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: I anticipated having a hard time keeping this discussion focused on the two questions outlined above. I just didn't anticipate it would fork in the way it did :) I've refactored some comments in an attempt to keep elements of the discussion focused in appropriate places. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment regarding the first point "Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university...". This is simply not always the case. "Popular" or "athletic" logos are often used to represent the university and its community as a whole. This would be exemplified by use of the "popular" or "athletic" in this photo of student shuttle busses on the campus of the University of Pittsburgh. The "arched block PITT" logo, in this particular case, is used in a completely non-athletic context. Academic use of other "athletic/popular" logos occurs at many schools, including the University of Miami, which has used both their split "U" and Ibis logo in many academic contexts for many years. Logos and mascots can represent the universities as a whole, and this is often evidenced by the appearance of mascots at non-athletic functions. I also disagree with the analogy that most people think of Harvard Law when the first hear of Harvard. No one is advocating the use of logos restricted to representation of sub-entities, individual colleges, or programs, but to claim that popular/athletic logos are also so restricted in their representation is simply not the case in many instances. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• My take: in the infobox only, only the school-wide logo should be used. Articles about schools are about the school itself, not its athletic program or any other specific academic program. Importantly, not every school has an athletic program, and furthermore, relating more to how college athletics are run, it detracts from the academic nature of the institution which is first and foremost what the article should be covering. Now, this doesn't supercede the possible inclusion of a logo on a section about the school's athletic program that will likely be summarized in the body of the article (with the high probability that a separate article will be there for the school's athletic program). Just that in the infobox, it is distracting and misleading and creates a bias towards triple-AAA schools over smaller institutions and also non-American schools where such athletic programs don't exist in the same manner. --MASEM (t) 23:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Should the information fields dealing with athletics also then be removed from University infoboxes? Who is to judge that athletics distracts from the academic nature of a university, and furthermore, what logos do and do not represent universities as a whole? This varies by institution, and certainly does not seem to have a one-size-fits-all answer. I believe the first question should be, are the logos providing useful information to the reader for identification purposes? However, I agree that inclusion of athletic-specific logos (if you can define that) in the body of the text of the athletic section could be warranted in place of the infobox. However, the editor responsible for the wave of edits that removed these logos from the infoboxes is also removing them athletic sections within the body of the article citing, I believe incorrectly, Wikipedia:NFC#Images_2 point 5. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I've no problem with wikilink fields for the school's athletic (and/or schoolwide) program/mascot/etc, as well as to any other significantly important academic programs, omitting these when they don't apply. Text is free and also less an eye-drawing piece of information. Logos potentially are non-free , and any guidance that allows for some logos outside of the main school logo in the infobox is either going to bias against some schools and biased towards athletic programs, or will significant increase the amount of non-free imagery used. --MASEM (t) 05:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Masem. While we should prefer a free image, we should prefer being correct on top of that. If the athletic logo is not the same as the school's logo, we should not be using it in place of the real logo. Mr.Z-man 00:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The question isn't using it in place of, but rather in addition to, and often in conjunction with the fields in the infobox dealing with athletics (see Harvard University). Or, if it can indeed have broader application across a university, should it still be prohibited? How do you then define "athletic-specific" logos? CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

They can be included, as long as they aren't presented as the main logo, ie, in the main position near the top of the infobox. As for your other questions, neither of those matter. All that matters is that the primary logo in the infobox is the primary logo of the school, not the logo of some specific department or section. Mr.Z-man 04:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• No athletic logo Infoboxes are meant to be a quick pull of salient, common, information. They also happen to be a handy place to throw salient common graphics - a crest, small photo, image or map. So far so good. And good enough, the tendency to add more and more to the infobox dilutes its usefulness. If the sporting side of an institution is important enough to merit its own article or a substantial section, then it can have its own infobox. I can think of lots of cruft trivia data stuff that could go in that. Furthermore if it is a company logo, I would imagine these things are transient, and WP is not an advertising service, so I would be inclined to have a field "sponsor = Farmbrough Sportswear" rather than "sponsor logo = Farmbrough Sportswear.png". Rich Farmbrough, 17:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC).

I also believe that in an article about a school or university that only the school-wide or university-wide logo should be used, if one is available for use. No single department logo should be used, whether athletic dept. or other well-known or relatively-unknown logo. I would support such a proposal if one is later made. (By the way, the organization of this RfC makes it a bit difficult to know where one should leave comment if one wants to comment on the original question and not get involved in all the meta-discussion.) Cheers. N2e (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days --Hammersoft (talk) 12:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

my attempt at the same — BQZip01 — ^talk 13:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

University Standards

I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The wording for this will have to be careful. Take the example of the University of Pennsylvania: the image at the top of the article is actually the school's arms, not the seal (see here). For wording of a guideline, such possibilities may need to be accommodated for. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, how does WP:NFCC #3a impact universities that utilize seals or athletic symbols within their school graphic? Pitt would an example of seal reuse (although a simplified version of the seal), while Texas A&M would be an example of "athletic" logo reuse. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Using the seal in the infobox context is informative in nature and is a "fair use" application no matter what the legal use of the seal is nor what the University desires. It does not indicate a legal agreement or endorsement of the page, it is simply an indication of what the University's seal is. In my humble opinion, in the case of Pitt, the seal should be used as the main image and the arms logo at the bottom to most accurately reflect the images by which the University is known. The "PITT" logo should then be used in the athletics section as it most acurately reflects the symbol by which the athletic teams are known. Showing anything else would be a disservice to the University and its symbols as not being accurately reflective the logos by which they are known. — BQZip01 — ^talk 17:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Penn specificially, my point was only to suggest careful wording of a guideline so editors don't feel compelled to use the seal vs. the arms for the infobox, regardless of any internal university policy. In the case of Penn, the arms is infinitely more common and, in this case, and may be more appropriate for the lead image because it may be more useful as an identifying mark. This decision may be better left to editors or Wikipedia projects that best know the article topic, than to generalize a guideline to just seals. Or perhaps a guideline should just read "seals or coats of arms". I think you confused Pitt and Penn, Pitt has no such arms logo. Pitt uses a simplified version of its seal and a wordmark in Janssen55 font as it's school graphic. The seal part of this logo would apparently violate WP:NFCC #3a if it also appeared in the infobox. A question I do not know the answer for is if it makes a difference whether the version of the seal in the "school graphic" is a simplified version. Does that negate NFCC #3a? For the Texas A&M article, minimal usage of the aTm logo is complicated by its adoption as the school's graphic. This is also true with the University of Miami, West Virginia and the University of Michigan.

Despite these particularities, I still think it is useful, for identification purposes, that athletic logos such as the ones you have collected be allowed in, at least, the athletic portion of the infobox as was the case in many schools' articles prior to the wave of edits that removed them. The addition of an "athletic logo" field in template:infobox university could help standardize their placement and size. This would not prevent alternate non-free other or "mascot" logo use in the athletics portion of the text body if desired (e.g. the Pitt Panther or, in the case of Texas A&M, the T-star "Building Champions" logo or Ol' Sarge) which are often more tightly aligned with athletic programs than some of the others that have become representative symbols of the overall university. This would avoid single use per page restrictions while providing maximum information in the most visible portion of the article. I guess the issue is for me on this what is the Infobox for? In my mind, it is for quick profiling and identification of the article topic. Therefore, I believe that it is a disservice not to include such prominent identifying marks in the infobox, and this is especially true when they identify an alternative name such as "Pitt" or "Cal", but also takes on added importance when they are used outside athletic contexts and many of the logos in your collection are used in such a manner. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I think such a proposal should go to the Wikiproject:Universities for approval before mass additions or deletions. I don't think this is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be implemented. As for the duplication of images, I concur that there may be problems, but Universities typically have a host of ways their logos and typefaces should be presented. Usually there are a few dozen typeface-only options to choose from.

I agree that it seems like the University Wikiproject is the place for it. Full circle back to the discussion there? CrazyPaco (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As for mixing up Pitt and Penn, I sheepishly admit the error of my ways, quote the mantra of WP:IAR ten times, and humbly beg forgiveness from the great and powerful Oz. — BQZip01 — ^talk 22:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Just don't confuse Pitt or Penn with Penn State, that will really rankle some feathers! CrazyPaco (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Other discussions

Other discussions exist on this subject. They are listed below. This RfC is another attempt to centralize discussion in a single, appropriate place that applies to the entire abstract concept being dealt with here.

• User_talk:Rettetast/Archive_10#Please_refrain_from_the_reversion_battle_on_the_Texas_Tech_page
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Universities#Logo_as_identifying_marks_in_infoboxes
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problems_with_University_of_Pittsburgh_article

Related Village Pump (policy) discussions

The following subthreads were originally listed along with this discussion but have since been split into their own thread:

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_68#A_separate_issue:_trademark_policy_on_Wikipedia_and_legality

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_68#Varying matters regarding trademarks

User identity

hi, i have a question about user identity. i will try to explain without using specifics. there is one article on wikipedia. (it is also a BLP). the subject of the article (call it 101) has several anti "101" websites on the internet. one of the anti-101 writers (editor A) (with his own anti 101 websites) has a wikipedia acct and he has revealed his name and websites on his user page (which i think is line with wikipedia policy). there is another editor (editor B) on wikipedia who shares the same name as one of the anti-101 writers (with several of his own anti 101 websites) but has not given any more information about himself. some of the edits by editor B seem like original research, and the topics seem similar to those he posts on his own website.
many of editor B's comments towards other editors also seem rude, patronizing and condescending. i dont want to harrass the editor and am unsure how to proceed as it is difficult to deal with these editors. (as it seems that their hostility towards subject 101 spills onto the wikipedia article and the editors involved on the page)

i was wondering what to do or how to proceed.

J929 (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy on WP:OR and WP:BLP still applies to all edits and editors, regardless of who they are. For more specific guidance, WP:COI may be applicable. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 11:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You might also want to check out Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts if you have specific behavioral concerns about a user. Powers ^<sjectmall>T 12:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!
i tried the COI board and it was said that unless editor A or B is pushing a product or their own websites it is not COI... and to try NPOV.
i'm under the assumption wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and content included in an article have to be from a reliable source (and properly referenced). As person 101 is a BLP and is the subject of the wikipedia page, editor B has been making edits about books about person 101. ie instead of discussing person 101 in the biography section, he discusses books about him/her. i asked editor B to move the info to a more suitable section as a biography should only deal with the subject of the article. These edits about books are in line with (same as) the topics he discusses on his own website, where editor B questions the sources (already deemed valid by wikipedia) and books which discuss person 101. Editor B says these sources are only catering to claims made by person 101. hence inclusion of information about books about person 101 in the biography section seems to me like speculation, arguement and a synthesis based on his own reserach and analysis...
"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."WP:OR

WP:COI says "Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested." if editor B doesnt fully disclose his full identity (ie his anti 101 websites), is this a form of COI? how then is it determined (or can it be, in not harassing the editor) that editor B is the same person who holds anti 101 websites? (it seems more than coincidence that editor B and the person who holds the anti 101 websites share the same name -- among other similarities). on their websites editor A and B say that they are linked and have communications ie. send each other emails etcs... outside of wikipedia. does this constitute a "group" as defined in the WP:COI page?

i will also look into Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts.

any suggestions on how to proceed is most helpful...

Thanks!

J929 (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't get hung up on the letter of the law, and instead apply the spirit of the law. A conflict of interest arises whenever someone edits on something or references they're involved with. Only material that is verifiable in reliable sources is allowed. Explain this to them, revert violations of this, and if they don't stop, request a block. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 11:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!

will try WP:OR. if nothing changes, i'm not sure how to proceed as theres no concrete "evidence" or facts to prove that editor B is the anti 101 writer (with the same name). will update how things progress...

J929 (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

it seems like things are the same. i was wondering is there any wikipedia body to ask to look into the identity of editor "B"? to pursue the issue myself may be harassment but if editor B doesnt fully disclose his identity then is it a violation of WP:COI? ("Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested.")
(i do contest his edits and there is concern among other editors about his identity) not sure if this is the correct way to proceed.
any suggestions are most welcome...

Thanks!

J929 (talk) 17:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Checkuser exists for identifying multiple accounts being operated with similar usage patterns, however you may not request it without evidence of improper use of multiple accounts (no "fishing expeditions"). Further, Wikipedia/Wikimedia will not publicly divulge the real-world identity of any editor—if even known in the first place (it does not know the vast majority of users' identities). It is also strictly prohibited to "out" another Wikipedia user by publicly revealing their identity (the offending edits will be oversighted, and the offender sanctioned).

So while you may request that a user declare their conflict of interest, you cannot compel them to do so. It is up to them to conform with WP:COI, and up to other editors to take editorial action if a problem is perceived. If that degenerates into an editing conflict, then there are a number of dispute resolution steps available.

By the way, is the subject of this inquiry Sathya Sai Baba? Be aware that the arbitration committee (the final step of dispute resolution), has twice issued rulings on editing disputes originating from that topic. (See here and here.) Certain editors are under permanent sanction as a result of that decision, and if you're alleging that one of them has returned under an alternate user account, there may be grounds to request a checkuser. There are also some specific remedies that apply to that topic only, that can be enforced as a result of the Arbitration Committee's findings. TheFeds 21:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

i dont think checkuser applies as although another opinionated editor has recently appeared i dont think it is a sockpuppet issue...
other editors have expressed concern about editor B and the similarities they share with the anti 101 writer (same name being one of them...). what dispute resolutions can you can suggest?

the subject is Sathya Sai Baba. i'm not alledging that any of the users have returned. my concern is that one of the anti 101 writers has stated that all the anti 101 writers are "internationally connected", meaning they have ties outside of wikipedia and have agendas and tactics they use. (will provide links if needed) and hence the concern that wikipedia is simply being used by this group as a platform to propogate their agenda and views (and the original research they have accumulated over the years). they dont seem to edit to improve the article, only simply editing to keep their interests alive with a "foot in the door" on what they believe should be included in the article (even though one of the main edits by editor A violates BLP policy in the sources he quotes... there has been edit wars over this source even after it was decided by a univolved groupd of wikipedia editors that the source was a BLP violation)

having read the remedies about the rulings you provided, it seems that editor A has violated the remedy by using a source/website run by fellow anti 101 writer in his edits. (the remedy (via the link you provided) states "It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role)." what action can be taken against editor A for this violation?
will provde links if needed...

Thanks

J929 (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Blocks and bans "not punishment" needs clarification

At, present a common mantra is that blocks and bans are not to be used as punishment, but in order to prevent further disruption. I think this idea is in need of some clarification. One interpretation of the mantra is that it is perfectly OK for a banned user to return using a sockpuppet, as long as they continue making useful edits which benefit the encyclopedia. Even though a number of people whom I respect hold that view, I respectfully disagree with them, even though the literal wording of "only to prevent, not punish" does seem to support it.

Punishment has a number of different reasons behind it:

1. Retaliation/retribution is the purpose I think most people agree upon that blocks and bans should not be used for. They are not used to "get even".
2. In contrast, incapacitation is the purpose I think we all agree blocks and bans are for. Block and/or ban the user so they cannot continue to vandalize/disrupt/harass/etc.
3. Rehabilitation, hoping that the banned user will learn from the ban and be productive at the end of it is tough. We have specifically abolished "cool-down" blocks, but having banned users contribute to other projects during the ban from English Wikipedia have in some rare instances produced positive results. Whether a user can "rehabilitate" by ban evasion is a different matter.
4. Deterrence is in two varieties
   1. The banned person is deterred from continuing with the offensive activity after the ban expires, also called specific deterrence
   2. Everyone is deterred from offensive activity because bad behavior may result in a ban, also called general deterrence.

When we say that blocks and bans are not for punishment, I think we really mean that they are not means of revenge (retaliation/retribution). The reason I disagree with turning a blind eye to ban-evading sockpuppets is that the general deterrence factor is eroded. A ban is a severe sanction because it means you are kicked off Wikipedia. If the sanction were that "you have to make a new username to continue editing", that sanction loses most of its teeth for someone who has no intention of respecting the ban, and as a result we wind up with a de facto legitimization of the disruptive behavior that led to the ban in the first place. "Is harassing someone worth getting kicked off the website?" v. "Is harassing someone worth losing your current username?"

The blocking policy already says that deterrence is one of the purposes of blocks. I feel that the banning policy should specifically mention general deterrence of disruption as one of its purposes. It should also explain why evasion with a sockpuppet to make useful edits is prohibited.

Using blocks and bans as a deterrent is a punitive measure, and we should not try to kid ourselves by saying otherwise. They are used to sanction poor behavior ("punishment"), even if they are not used to wreak vengeance ("retaliation"). Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

With regards to sockpuppetry, it is always the user themself that is banned, not their account. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 16:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference between 'punitive' and 'preventative'. If it's obvious a user is going to CONTINUE vandalizing, ban. And yes, sockpuppet bans are ostensibly on the puppeteer himself, to the extent to which that can be enforced. Generally the socks are indeffed and the master account gets a week or so. --King Öomie 17:06, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If someone comes back and is behaving, then there is nothing to be prevented. If someone is indefinitely banned, comes back under a different name and behaves perfectly, they should be allowed to continue behaving well, because for all intents and purposes, they were banned as a disruptive person. If they are no longer disruptive, why continue to apply the ban? Consider, if you will, that they will probably never be caught if they don't resume their bad behavior. Irbisgreif (talk) 17:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, some puppetmasters are indef banned. Case and point: Bambifan101 (talk⁺ · contribs · deleted contribs · tag · block user · block log · CheckUser).--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 17:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Special case. That user created and used 150 sockpuppets, while aware of the implications of WP:SOCK, and thus it was painfully obvious that they had no intention of stopping. --King Öomie 18:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand we just had a couple of productive user accounts blocked on the basis that they were returned banned users, not on their behaviour. This does seem a shame. Rich Farmbrough, 22:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Not really. Anyone who is banned can request a review of their ban, including asking for a "grace period" to edit while others observe. If they behave, the ban can be lifted. Socking to get around a ban is considered gaming the system, and sours many people on allowing the banned party to continue editing, even if they've been behaving with their sock. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Collapsing topics/exchanges on article talk pages (governing policy page/section?)

NOTE: I've been around awhile, but never to the Pump ... I'm here because of the underlined text from a talk page template. Please let me know if Help desk is the more appropriate venue for this question.

“ This is not a forum for general discussion of [X]. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about [X] at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. ”

I have been asked what (specific) policy is the basis which allows the collapsing of portions of talk page discussions (by administrators or others).

The general explanation I gave was:

“

• Any topic which is not about the editing of the article of the talk page may be removed or collapsed. Wikipedia talk pages are not forums. The purpose of the talk page of an article is to discuss that article.
• What "policy" says off-topic, nonproductive exchanges may be collapsed? That lies within the implications of the policy that Wikipedia talk pages are not forums, and other general rules of thumb regarding doing what is necessary to maintain consensus building discussion, and nip in the bud distractions from the goal of producing an encyclopedia—with somewhat greater latitude in the context of highly controversial pages temporarily plagued by nonproductive contention.

”

But there was a request for specific WP policy (page/section) applicable to authorize collapsing (of anything by anyone) on an article talk page.

Any specific places in policy that specifically covers collapsing? (Again, if the wrong venue, please direct me.) Proofreader77 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there is even guidelines covering that. Except that it is sometimes common sense to do so. I would be more worried about people asking for policy to back that up - it indicates that there is not a lot of WP:AGF going on? We all do lots of stuff for which there is no "policy", there's no policy to ask for policy.... Rich Farmbrough, 20:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Ok try WP:TALK - "Keep the layout clear", "Keep discussions focused" - Minor refactoring edits are still appropriate "When pages get too long" Summarize - refactor. Rich Farmbrough, 20:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

(Reply to first of your replies: Yes, what I'd think, too, just making sure.)

re WP:TALK - Thanks (also reading WP:Refactor linked to).

BUT NOTE: Still (pointless) isssue of (recently blocked pair of editors, now fussy) demanding policy (specifically) for collapsing discussions. (And removing collapsed formatting in protest to "no policy" authorizing it, etc.) Such is WP life. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

PS Process/forum question: If the complainants cannot be satisfied, where is the appropriate forum to address this? (e.g., Raise the question at AN/I and direct them there? etc) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

ANI is probably the most direct venture, though it should only be used if the conflict cannot be resolved through normal means. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Advice needed on moving draft from mainspace

While categorizing uncategorized pages from the backlog of WP:CATP, I ran across PIRA/PIRAlededraft, which is a draft version of Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be deleted, as there is a great deal of discussion on its talk page about a controversial subject. To where should the article and its talk page be moved? To its creator's sandbox? Many thanks in advance for all advice and pointers to policy. MuffledThud (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Does it need to be moved? You could just link to it from a relevant talk page. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 22:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, see WP:Subpages#Disallowed uses. The normal case for a multi-author collaboration on rewriting an article seems to be as a subpage of the main article's talk page, or a subpage of the wikiproject if the project is coordinating (most of) the work. Anomie⚔ 00:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Additional questions: Should both the draft article and its talk page be moved to subpages of the main article's talk page? How should they then be distinguished? Would the redirects left behind following the move be deleted R3 as implausible typos? If so, then can they be protected somehow? Note that PIRA is now a redirect to Provisional Irish Republican Army. Thanks, MuffledThud (talk) 04:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I would move to Talk:PIRA/draft and Talk:PIRA/draft-talk, and would leave a soft redirect in place. Taemyr (talk) 06:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Why Talk:PIRA/draft, rather than Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army/draft? Not criticizing, just want to understand the best way to do this. Thanks, MuffledThud (talk) 07:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say WP:CSD#R2 (cross-namespace redirect from article space to talk space). Also post a note on Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army noting that the draft was moved so anyone interested can find it easily enough. Anomie⚔ 11:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

To clarify: PIRA/PIRAlededraft is not a subpage, as subpages are disabled in mainspace; therefore it looks like an article. It be moved to a subpage of the appropriate talk page and tagged with {{draft}}. There should be no redirect from mainspace to a talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved it. Anomie⚔ 03:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. MuffledThud (talk) 08:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Are aggregate Google book search results valid in-line references - revisit last week's discussion

This was discussed last week - now archived at [3]. IMO the editors who commented were aware that the question pertained to Gbook search results, since P.'s post mentioning that appeared before the other editors weighed in. Piotrus restored them [4] on the grounds that last week's discussion here referred only to Google searches, not Google book searches. Comments? Novickas (talk) 14:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

A page of any kind of search results is almost never valid as a reference, including in this case. The reasons were given in the previous discussion. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 15:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I would even go further than OrangeDog. A link to perform a dynamic query is not a reference at all, without even approaching the question of whether it's an acceptable one. Static queries or archives of dynamic queries might be acceptable. Arguments of the form "you can see for yourself that X is Y, just look at the search results" are generally original research. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems like over-referencing to include references for that sort of thing anyway.

• If a term is only used by one or two books, either point out the books by name or don't mention the term at all. Mentioning every single term that has been used is likely to violate WP:NOT#UNDUE.
• If a term is commonly used, just put a pointer to the corresponding search on the talk page. Then, if anyone asks whether the terms are actually used, point them to it. But if the term is actually widely used, few people are going to ask about it, and nobody is going to be able to challenge it once checking the search. It is perfectly appropriate to tell someone on a talk page to check a search to see that a term is commonly used.

— Carl (CBM · talk) 15:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Please note those links are not used as references, but notes. Before, editors were questioning that those terms are used, despite links on talk showing that all of those terms are used in dozens if not hundreds of printed works, so I added them to the article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The solution there is to educate the people who ask about them. Hypothetically, they ask on the talk page, right? If not, they need to be educated about that as well.

More long-winded: Descriptions of terminology will always have the problem that few books are going to give a long list of all the terms used to refer to something along with explanations about how common each one is. We usually make lists of terms by simply noting which terms are commonly used in the literature, not for looking for sources about the literature. So random editors should not expect wonderful citations for terminology in most cases. We have to make do with our own knowledge of the literature, with google searches, etc. to determine which terminology is widespread and which is idiosyncratic. This requires talk page conversation. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. So what would you do with the article in question: Tsarist autocracy. I think that the section on Alternative names is useful, and the notes are helpful. Would you disagree with me and argue it should be removed? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the notes are very helpful, not in the least because the first thing anyone would do to check the article is to do some internet searches. So the notes don't actually add any new information to the article. One option is to put a detailed list of search results on the talk page, then put a comment into the source code of the article to remind editors that there was consensus to include the material.) I will skip the question of whether the section itself is helpful. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy /guideline page help needed

Note:thread moved from WP:AN

Following discussion on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid editing in June of this year WP:Paid was created as a guideline/overview page of existing practices. Some editors wishing to enact a more stringent policy have, to state it diplomatically, since made efforts to replace it with a proposed policy page. We now have two pages Wikipedia:Paid editing (guideline) which attempts to overview current practice and Wikipedia:Paid editing (policy). They are very different in tone but perhaps are not mutually exclusive. First question - is it acceptable to have both a guideline and policy page? I have asked this but have not gotten a response. If it's not OK where is this stated so we can refer to that as a moving forward jump-off. If it is OK are the current page titles acceptable? If not what would be better? All help appreciated. -- Banjeboi 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless there is issue with the current page and the new page is a draft being written for a proposed replacement, I don't see the merit of having two pages on the same topic, as there could potentially be contradiction. Is that the situation? As you described it, sounds like it might be. Otherwise it would seem a merge might be the ideal solution here, and then the community can decide what level (policy/guideline) it is to be.

Perhaps you should bring this up at the Village Pump, as I am not sure any administrator action is specifically needed here. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 15:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Note:Moved to VPP

The current guideline page is a bit more historical and treats paid editing as something that happens and can be problematic but not as prohibited because it's not. A group that kept trying to imply paid editing was forbidden or unacceptable in most cases started what is now a proposed policy page on the subject which is much more ... stern against most forms of paid editing. I have been reading everything on Wikipedia about paid editing issues and feel the policy page is both inaccurate in tone and spirit. The community RfC was quite divided so any page needs to reflect those split opinions. I'd rather allow those interested in working on enacting a policy the latitude to develop their page using as strong as language as they wish with the understanding they wish it to be policy. Once they fell it is ready it can judged on its own merits. The guideline page meanwhile, would continue to reflect current situation of what is technically allowed/prohibited and explain some of the history and reasons for all of it. Both pages are in the development stage and neither camp seems ready to adopt the stance of either being more "soft" or "hard" on the issues. So besides that the two pages might seem contradictory is there an actual prohibition against two pages co-existing? -- Banjeboi 16:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Poll regarding style of scientific name of animals with common names

I would like to gather some opinions regarding the style of the introductory sentence in articles on animals. In particular, the difference between bolding and not bolding the italicized scientific name of a species with a well-known popular name. For the purposes of this opinion poll, forget current policy and guidelines, and merely focus on which style you think looks better. For example, which do you prefer, the top or bottom version of the following introductory paragraph from the "Blue Whale" article?

The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.

or

The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.

You can see the changes in the context of the real article here and here and I encourage you to look at those before deciding your opinion. When you vote, a quick note why you liked the one over the other is fine but please save your longer arguments for later as this is just intended to be a quick straw poll. Jason Quinn (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

• No Bold - I can't see any reason to use the bold. Certainly not using it is far more aesthetically pleasing to me. I admit animals aren't in my "area of interest" or anything. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
• Bold. The unbolded one looks better, but as long as the scientific name is a redirect to the article as a synonym, I think the bolding is better overall for the article. (Then again, I think that animal article titles should follow "common name" capitalization too, so what do I know?) -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

  That the pages are redirected from those names shouldn't come into play here (though I full agree that all the redirects should be there, as you say below). Other pages don't bold anything extra because of redirects. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  Yes, other pages bold the alternate names & synonyms of the title. See Boy George and Slaughterhouse, for examples. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Bold per JHunterJ --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
• Bold All synonyms/aliases of an article title in the lede paragraph should be bolded. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Since so many are quoting policy in their answer, I want to reemphasize that the poll is not about policy, it is about aesthetics and style. I think I made this clear. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

If the poll is indeed just about looks, what's the point of the straw poll? That is, what would you do with the information gathered, except possibly inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name? I also think the Mona Lisa looks better than Wikipedia, but I don't think we should replace Wikipedia with the Mona Lisa. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Inform a subsequent move to policy-ize (or guideline-ize) bolding or not bolding the scientific name. The Mona Lisa thing is a bad example. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It's an Reductio ad absurdum example that may seem to lean counter to your goal, but that doesn't make it bad. If this poll is to inform a policy argument, then it is about policy, not looks completely ignoring policy. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• No bold, per Wikipedia:LEAD#Foreign language: "Do not boldface foreign names not normally used in English." Also seems far more aesthetically pleasing to me. Would like to see the scientific name preceded by the link to the article describing it (Binomial nomenclature), i.e. the format "Blue Whale (scientific name: Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine animal...". We could use a template similar to {{lang}} templates for that. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 08:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  Scientific names are in Latin, but those Latin phrases are in normal English usage -- that is, they appear in English-language reliable sources as a matter of course. The foreign-language Latin word for "Blue Whale" that should be avoided would be something on the "cetus" line, I think. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  Realistically, however, is anyone likely to actually be searching Wikipedia for that exact name? I wonder if the most common searches would be for the common name and as long as those who search the scientific name also are directed to the correct article if the ultimate goals are met? -- Banjeboi 12:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Latin names for biological species are a result of a usage consensus of the scientific fields: the common name may vary from language to language, or even with slang used somewhere (such as "Blue Whale", "Ballena Azul", etc), but the scientific name is unique for all: scientists from anywhere in the world will read or say Balaenoptera musculus and they know exactly what are they talking about. A common name may also be applied to different species as if they were all the same, but the scientif name would not be the same one if the species are different. And yes, being a scientif convention it is likely to expect people searching by it. Technical terms should be used as little as posible (so, no saying Balaenoptera musculus when talking about the blue whale in a casual manner), but shouldn't be disregarded either. All species should have their scientific name redirecting to them, if they don't have it already MBelgrano (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Bold - both from an esthetic and a functional point of view. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• No bold. As JHunter says, it looks better, and the whole issue is about readability, usability and typography that supports them. NVO (talk) 15:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  Yes, the whole issue is about usability, but that is more than looks. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Should it matter whether the article is titled by the species' scientific name or a common name? I don't see this discussed above. Postdlf (talk) 15:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  No, this question is separate from whether the species articles are titled with scientific name or not. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

  The question is only intended for situations where the main article is a common name, not a scientific name. I think it is clear (at least in my mind) that if the scientific name is used as the main article title, then it should be both italic and bold. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Bold. We always bold alternate names. Powers ^T 20:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• No bold. Alternative names are generally bolded, but they're usually more separated from the title term. When you have bold name (bold italicized name), the two names appear to run together too much; it looks like a single, long, strange name, as though you should always say "Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus)" every time you use the term. --Trovatore (talk) 22:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
  • That should be handled by simply fixing the lede sentence, bold italicized name commonly called bold name. -- Banjeboi 07:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
    • That's not too terrible. I still feel the "bold" !voters are taking an overly rigid and formalistic approach to this — binomial names are not "alternative names" in the usual sense, but rather identifiers from a specialized context. They should not really be put on the same level as the common names; the common names are the more important ones for us, and the binomial names are just an extra little tidbit of information. Still, your proposal is much better than putting the two names side-by-side and bolding them both. --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
• Bold, as per tradition and functional use. Colds7ream (talk) 23:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• Bold and work to establish a lede sentence format per MBelgrano, if the scientific name is universal and the common names vary then the lede should be scientific name commonly called common name and other common name is ____. In this way the bolded names don't abut one another and a common presentation allows for multiple names to be presented for our readers benefit. As we are a global encyclopedia it makes sense that we apply more weight to the universally used scientific names while still allowing for notable common names to also be used. -- Banjeboi 07:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
  • comment Actually, in my opinion, you have the levels of importance exactly backwards. Binomial names are terribly useful for what they do, but articles about commonly-known animals and plants are not usually primarily about biology or taxonomy. The primary importance should be placed on the common name or names; the fact that these names vary is just normal, something that we have to deal with all over the encyclopedia.

Now, it's quite a different matter when you're talking about some obscure species, or when you're talking about taxonomic levels distinct from usual non-scientific classifications. Those articles probably are primarily about biology or taxonomy, and in those cases, the whole calculation changes. --Trovatore (talk) 22:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• • • The importance, which is listed first, similar to what the article is named should be sorted at the article or project level. In a bigger picture sense I see little difference between this issue and whether to bold someone's stage name(s) which are in the lede. We do it, for our readers who seek information. I do agree that keeping the bolded names separate makes sense as we are adding a visual cue. Those who are more adept at sussing out any rules for which goes first have my utter respect and blessing. -- Banjeboi 18:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Bold Reads better and is clearer for the first use. Though it is not the current issue, I think in agreement with Trovatore that we should follow the use of scientists in general and use the common name unless the taxonomy is being discussed. DGG ( talk ) 02:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

To compare Featured articles in other Wikipedia

Hi all, first sorry for my english, i am a french contributor. On french WP we created a page in which the purpose is to compare Featured Articles between french one is others. For instance, we have broadsheets to compare which FA on en: is not yet translate into fr:, or if it is. Thus, we can have a look on the advancement of the translations. We can also suggest to contributors good translation so as to enhance FA on our WP. Here is our main page.

My question is simple : is a sort of this project exists on english WP?

thanks a lot, --Prosopee (talk) 11:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

We have Wikipedia:WikiProject Echo. But have in mind that the comparison should be about broad coverage and topic detail (this is, no major information about the topic or related points of view are being omited or mentioned in a small level). Beyond that, articles on different languages about a same topic (even both ones featured) don't need to be just translations of each other. Starting from a topic, related bibliography, a medium, a number of users and a set of rules, the final shape of the article comes from daily work, it isn't predefined but in the broadest of terms.

Have in mid as well that wikipedia in english is not by default the best wikipedia at all levels. Projects in other languages may have even better articles for a certain given topic (specially the local ones), or expanded onto articles that haven't been created here yet but should be. MBelgrano (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, i don't think english WP is the best, i also seek on other languages. Thanks for your response, --Prosopee (talk) 18:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Bad joke policy

I propose a new policy concerning jokes on wikipedia. I have come across far too many users who believe their jokes are funny. It is, I believe, a time to put a stop to this. Bad jokes only make me groan, and I groan enough in real life, so do not want this to infest wikipedia. I propose we set up a panel of bad jokes monitors to ensure this policy is adhered to. I would suggest allowing three bad jokes in a 24hr period then a block. Thank you. Jack forbes (talk) 16:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Consider this your first warning then =P --King Öomie 16:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I knew it was workable! :) Jack forbes (talk) 16:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

There already is a template. ^Bongo_matic 16:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. That template is sitting right above my post. If I weren't so trusting I would think.....Nah, it can't be that. Jack forbes (talk) 17:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I protest such a policy. No kidding. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Didn't there use to be some page called "bad jokes and other deleted nonsense" or some such? And it was deleted as inappropriate? I don't know if it was the fact that the jokes were bad that people objected to, or just the fact that they were jokes. (No smiling on Wikipedia please, this is serious business...)--Kotniski (talk) 20:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. Not presently deleted, but redirects to Wikipedia:Silly Things. superluser_tc 2009 October 13, 21:27 (UTC)

Not a good idea. See past discussion on WT:CSD for why speedying hoaxes are a bad idea. The same points apply here. It might look like an article made as a joke, but determining this with surety require extensive knowledge of the relevant field. And as such requires community discussion. For articles that are obviously created in bad faith we already have a CSD. Taemyr (talk) 08:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

For how to handle the jokesters if they keep making repeated unserious additions, it's clearly disruptive and they can be blocked as disruptive users. Taemyr (talk) 08:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Works of Art -- "Extra-contextual" Information

I have a question about whether extra-contextual (I'm sorry, I don't know if that's a real word, but bear with me) information is appropriate for inclusion in an article on a narrative such as a book or film. For example, say you're watching a movie and there's a mysterious character in the background. The movie never specifies his name or who he is. But then a novelization of the movie comes out, which specifies that the mystery man is actually an accountant named Bill. My question is, should the article on the movie refer to the guy as Bill the Accountant? My personal feeling is that the answer is no, because that's a misleading representation of the film itself; the article is, after all, about the film, not about the novelization. At most, there could be a footnote on the character, that he is specified as Bill the Accountant in the novelization, but if such a footnote is included, it should be made clear that the information is not found in the movie itself. Thoughts? Minaker (talk) 21:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You're right. The film is what it is. To treat story details found outside the film as if they are really "in" the film in some mysterious way is "in universe writing"—describing fiction from the inside, as if it were true, rather than describing the works of fiction as they actually exist. This is a big problem with articles about elements from serial or franchise fiction that purportedly maintain fictional continuity across different works. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) for a longer discussion of this issue. Postdlf (talk) 01:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I went to Wikipedia this evening, just to find this harrassing and quite disturbing thing on my user page.......

This evening, I went to Wikipedia to look up something, and I was encountered by this character assault on my user page. I need to know what steps to take.

The following was the message that this person wrote to me.

Journey "Niceness" You can "yipe yipe yipe" all day, but it won't help. Experienced editors tire of these whinings very quickly, and crave only entries from contributors with BALLS, not cherrystones. Don't be that guy who needs to be drop-kicked like an insufferable lap-dog. Try also not to be too offended by edits that may hurt your precious feelings, but simply happen to coincide with the truth...

In short: toughen up, or be prepared to cry yourself to sleep on a daily/nightly basis. This isn't for kindergarteners...

"I've got your name... I've got your ass!!!"

I didn't include the person's name. I have no idea what this person is referring to. I wrote on his user page a few minutes ago that I feel that an explanation is owed to me as to what this is all about. Will somebody please help me out on this? It is an offensive and harassing character assault that is totally uncalled for. I do not need to be greeted unexpectedly with such verbal abuse. This is highly offensive. Not only that, but I have no idea of what this person wants from me, or what he is referring to. I couldn't even begin to imagine. Not only that, but the last line was obviously meant to intimidate me. Well, he did a good job. There are creeps crawling all over the internet, but it doesn't help Wikipedia's image to have these kind of things going on. Will somebody please give me some advice as to what actions can be taken? Runt (talk) 23:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It looks like it has been addressed. If not, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution would be the place to decide next actions, I think. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "verifiable over truth" is not good enough anymore

Many like to throw around in arguments that Wikipedia's standards are "verifiability not truth", and while that may have worked when the Community was young, perhaps we should change that wording and clarify it a bit on our policy and guideline pages. While I do understand keeping such an idea in spirit, we should clarify the policy so it does not stand out so boldly, it is probably the number one quote bandied around that editors dont like to apply IAR and Common sense on, especially when one proposes to show that a reliable source has gotten the information wrong by showing primary sources contradict the RS. I propose that "verifiability not truth" be given less prominence and more clarification that if it can be reasonably shown that a RS has gotten something wrong then it is more important to have the truth than to have sourced false information. "Reasonably shown" meaning through other sources, even primary (which are unfairly discriminated against in Wikipedia), or through common sense that a consensus of editors have agreed on. As an example I will give a non-controversial example from my own editing experience-

• On Capital District there is a section regarding the origin of the name, originally the section used an Albany Times Union (TU) newspaper article as a RS for the origin of the name of that region. I knew it wasnt right, so I found primary sources using the name and other sources giving earlier references to that name for the region showing the name was much older. So I changed the section to reflect what I found. Obviously the TU article was wrong about the date (by over 50 years) and on how/why.

I would love to hear any ideas on proposed rewording of WP:V and any other relevant places. I'm not looking to completely overturn the idea of verifying and am not advocating OR, I simply think our Community has evolved and matured to where we can, thanks to the RS/N and OR/N, decide for ourselves collectively using Common Sense and IAR what should and shouldnt be allowed in an article and if something is truthful or not. Having a boldly worded statement in WP:V that makes it clear that truth is not wanted here is not helpful to our image to the world, to newbies, or to editors who do want the truth in Wikipedia. We should be the most trusted word on the internet, not the place where we take the word of other sources at face value and take no responsibility for the information we disseminate. We have a responsibility to our readers. Suggestions, ideas, comments, hatred towards the proposal?Camelbinky (talk) 00:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

"Truth" in this context is about controversial truths. Is X political development exactly as we see it in the media, or is there a conspiracy behind it? The policy says: for Wikipedia, it's as we see it in the media (even if ultimately the media happens to be lying). When the conspiracy/real truth/whatever surfaces into the media, then and only then we can talk about it. MBelgrano (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This is the problem: "the media" instead of reliable academic sources, and "as we see it" instead of "as described in these reliable sources". Too many steps away from truth that sits idle on your library shelf (or, as wiser people put it before me, "Randy from Boise" always wins because he always cites an online newsleaf). NVO (talk) 02:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't loose the point by making such deep analisis of my words. "The media" is any media (any system in wich information is gathered, checked and distributed to a mass public, it can be either TV or books) and "as we see it" is, in casual terms, the opposing thing to "the real truth that the media does not want you to know..." or other such conspiracy excuses. MBelgrano (talk) 23:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Camelbinky, it seems that the issue you're raising here is really about when primary sources may be reliable sources for particular statements of fact, and what to do when sources conflict. You simply claim that the primary source you have found verifies an earlier date than the secondary source another contributor had found. The whole point of insisting on what is verifiable is that we don't just want a bunch of editors arguing back and forth about what they "know" to be the truth without anything concrete to prove the point either way. Until you had found that primary source, did you have any reason to believe that the secondary source was inaccurate? It's still about what you can prove using more than just your word for it. Postdlf (talk) 01:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Also wp:RS is clear that "primary or tertiary sources can be used to support specific statements" (while "the bulk of the article should rely on secondary sources"). wp:PRIMARY is clear that primary sources can be used with care. In general if i know a secondary source is incorrect, from some more primary source, i will use that primary source. I don't see the general problem. Perhaps C's energy on this relates to situations, highly irritating, where we encounter a stubborn editor insisting on keeping a sourced but incorrect statement. I think that's a problem with that editor, which is different. doncram (talk) 01:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Or there may be a reasonable dispute over what exactly the primary source establishes, which is also different. Postdlf (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that "truth" can vary from person to person. So how do we reconcile disputes when there are multiple "truths"? We could take a poll of editors, but that would be susceptible to outside influences, and people with fringe beliefs are often more vocal than the mainstream, both of which could lead to disproportionate results. So, instead, we mainly present what the mainstream sources say, but in the interests of NPOV, include other views on the "truth," giving them appropriate weight based on coverage in reliable sources. Mr.Z-man 01:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that's not always the case. Some truths are controversial, but others are not under any dispute and a reliable source may say otherwise simply by making a mistake (specially if the source has to talk about a topic beyond their area of expertise). Such a mistake can be detected by using other sources, or more specialized ones (such as history books instead of a history summary at the newspaper). MBelgrano (talk) 01:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• The problem that arises with multiple conflicting sources - even when primary vs secondary - isn't really a concern for "verifiability, not truth". Generally we have to pick and choose between multiple reliable sources, so in the case above I don't necessarily (generally speaking, of course) have a problem with saying that we should go to the primary source on something, because that's the most reliable. I encounter this a lot on history articles, where later commentators have made an error, and I argue that the primary source is, in that case, more reliable, if only because later commentators didn't have access to it. (I can think of examples, but they're probably not needed). Thus I agree with MBelgrano and Doncram. You do get a problem when all the reliable sources are wrong, but that's a relatively uncommon problem; or where the situation that Doncram described arises, but, as said, that last one is a problem with the editor. That said, I share Mr.Z-man's concern as well - we have a bright line here, because it solves controversial problems. Wikipedia is not set up to rely on expertise or majority opinion, so we need to fall back on something else when faced with multiple possible truths. Verifiability is that fall back position, but I fear it only works when drawn simply and solidly. If we change it to make it easier to work with in less controversial areas, I'm worried that we kill it's value when it is really required. - Bilby (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, my first experience with an editor who loved to quote "verifiable not truth" is what first led me to this idea, but since that time (has it been over a year yet?) I have seen others in different situations quote the same bold-faced "slogan" from wp:V at the RS noticeboard but luckily there that type of quotte is not popular and disregarded often. I agree with both Postdlf and Doncram that primary sources are great and dont usually face problems if they conflict secondary sources. But as Doncram stated, it may simply be a particular editor (or editors) who demand that a secondary source explicitly states X, or "not X" and states outright that the other RS is wrong. We have the "dubious" template, which is similar to the "citation needed" one to tag uncited material. Is it common practice or acceptable to use the dubious template to tag sourced material one finds unlikely? If a RS makes a claim that just doesnt sit right and seems "extravagant" or unlikely to an editor, is there a mechanism to bring forth a challenge? And if a challenge is put on it, what should happen? Do we leave the information in the article or take it out and put it on the talk page until consensus decides? I hope Doncram, Postdlf, or others know of existing policy that could shine light on it, or perhaps we could decide on a common sense mechanism here.

Z-mans response is one I take issue with. That response is one I've seen many times, and I consider it to be a copout, and one usually espoused by those who think only what the RS material says should be put in without any commonsences applied. We can as a group come to a consensus on what is the truth. The idea we cant is wrong. I have faith in Wikipedia editors as a group. I might not comes to the conclusion that Z-man likes, but it can make the decision rationally that a certain RS is simply wrong. We do it at the RS noticeboard daily and at the OR noticeboard. The truth can be found, if not attribution to the particular sources is good enough as long as we show it is that source's opinion and not fact.Camelbinky (talk) 02:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Really? Try proposing that for 9/11, or homeopathy, or one of the Eastern European debates, or Scientology; I can go on. You don't think outside groups (or inside groups) are going to try to manipulate the consensus? About a dozen or so ArbCom cases have shown that, no, there are some topics that the Wikipedia community cannot simply conclude what the truth is and stick with it. I'm not talking about individual sources, I'm talking about points of view. Sources are just paper or data, points of view are beliefs. For some people, telling them that their point of view is "wrong" is basically like telling them that their religion is wrong (and in some cases is the same thing). I have faith in most Wikipedia editors as well, however, I don't have the same faith in the entire world. We have high Google rankings and are often a first and only stop for information. Just like spammers want to get links and articles on Wikipedia, people with a POV and strong beliefs try to manipulate Wikipedia. We rely on a rough consensus of reliable sources rather than editors because reliable sources like peer-reviewed journals and mainstream media are much harder to manipulate than a talk page discussion or a straw poll. Mr.Z-man 02:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all- we are the often the highest listing on a google search for the reason that Google's complicated and copyrighted method of ranking (which they have never released to the public) is mostly primarily based on number of hits a website has gotten. Since our articles are visited by multiple editors multiple times each day our hitcounts are inflated just by us users/editors and not by those actual readers who come here looking for information, we are a self-fulfilling prophecy of becoming the first stop for all who look for knowledge, our own work gets us higher on the list of Google and thereby the first choice by lazy people who wont look much further down, even though there may be better places. And with all do respect to 9/11 conspiracists, homeopathy believers, and Scientoligists- there is a truth regarding all of those. 9/11 has a mainstream explanation and that's why other "ideas" on what happened are called "fringe theories" even here in Wikipedia and they have restrictions on using their sources and presenting their information as "fact". Homeopathy also is not given the full authority of actual medicine even though there is some science behind it working. Scientology is a religion, its beliefs are beyond the scope of science as it is in faith, it can portray as its explanation to life and death whatever it wants and we must report that explanation as what they believe, that doesnt mean on an article about the creation of the Universe we give them equal say to that of science (or any say whatsoever). In each of those cases there is truth, and there is fringe theory, I have no idea what the issue with Eastern Europe is, please tell me on my talk page, are some saying E. Europe does not exist? There is a website that actually says that Belguim does not exist, do we portray its opinions equally to that of the CIA WorldFactbook (which is also full of mistakes)? As one who has contributed with professors as a grad student to articles in peer-reviewed journals I can tell you that the peer-review is not as strict as one thinks, though it is of all the types of RS we use the strictest overview. "Mainstream journalism" is about as strict in editing as that of Penguin Publishing on its Book of World History, its choice of RS and OR is less strict than that of Wikipedia itself. (See- Dan Rather, New York Times scandals, the entire FOX news channel cast, esp. Glenn Beck, and many more examples) I have never seen a rough consensus of reliable sources rather than editors used on the OR/N as a compelling argument that won the day. I agree with you that there may be, in contentious and partisan articles (which are articles I dont work on and have no experience with, so I am biased towards smaller issues that probably do always have truth) there may in fact be no truth or not one that is easily discerned, that is why we use attribution. "Glenn Beck says Obama is a racist" (and yes GB has said that MANY TIMES) instead of sourcing to Fox News the statement "Obama is a racist". What is the truth about Obama being a racist or not? (no he isnt a racist is the correct answer) But there will be the fringe that says he is and use Fox News as a source (and Limberger or Limbough however you spell it). So instead of portraying it as fact we attribute it to being the belief of an individual source. Do you, Z-man, believe that it is better to use attribution than to portray something as fact when it is controversial? Do you support something similar to the "dubious-discuss" template to be tagged on sourced material that may be an extraordinary claim by a RS? Our readers should be warned when something may not be the fact that we, as an encyclopedia, claim it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Camelbinky (talk • contribs)

Part of what we as editors have to do is evaluate what kind of claim a source is making. Is it making an assertion of fact, which is or isn't true, or merely a characterization, which is or isn't persuasive? And we can also evaluate whether a reliable source is reliable for the statement it is being used to verify. Is it reporting or editorializing? Is it venturing outside its area of expertise? Is it internally inconsistent? Postdlf (talk) 03:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Im trying to find out if there is a way to easily tag such verified statements to notify other users and make it clear to non-editors (just laypeople coming here to read) that the information may not be on the up-and-up?Camelbinky (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

It definitely needs to be modified, but for different reasons than those prevented above. There are various notable happenings that don't receive enough western attention for media verifiability. If you're trying to write an article on something a little more obscure, it's a nightmare trying to find media coverage that deals with the subject in question in more than a trivial manner. This limits the scope of wikipedia.

Forbid "text-shadow" in signatures

Please see Wikipedia talk:Signatures#Forbid "text-shadow" in signatures. Regards SoWhy 14:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

23 edits, 6 words actually different.

This link [5] shows the net result of 23 edits to a single page. 22 of these edits where either non-constructive edits (usually blatant vandalism) or those edits being undone. I'm not saying I have a solution but I do think that we've got a big problem when there are pages where less than 5% of the edits actually contribute to the article content.--RDBury (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is that a big problem? Page protection would be the solution if it is indeed a big problem, wouldn't it? -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

It floods the article's history, making it harder to focus on edits that actually had a net effect on the article. I've proposed in the past that there be some way of highlighting constructive edits, so you can see at a glance which ones to ignore (vandalism and its reversions, at a minimum). Just a method of visually organizing the history, never to remove or hide any edits. Probably difficult to implement, but it's an idea worth exploring. Postdlf (talk) 14:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with RDBury and Postdlf. This is a problem for serious editors working to improve an article. When the history is heavily vandalism and reverts it is much more difficult to isolate and focus on the substantive changes. Rollback can help here somewhat, but is not widely used. N2e (talk) 15:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

If you want to set apart the important contributions from the minor ones, check article size of each version (mentioned at the history). If there's a big change from one to another, and no reversion after it, then that's a big contribution. A system to locate who and when wrote some part of the article is to seek big and then go small. Check if the edit was there 100 or 50 edits ago, and if it is, if it was other 100 or 50 ago, and so on. When you can set a point when the edit wasn't made yet and a point when the edit was already made, you can know that it was made somewhere in the middle. Repeat the process with lower intervals, until you have an interval you can check edit-by-edit, and that's it MBelgrano (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

4-year attempt to extinguish Comparison of wiki farms, and the worldwide wiki farm info it provides.

Is it not bizarre that people would want to remove most of the main article about the most revolutionary, educational and participatory software ever invented?

There has been an attempt for around 4 years to delete all or nearly all (depending on the mood of the involved editor) of Comparison of wiki farms. See the 4 deletion discussions. The last 2 were for keep. They are linked from the top of Talk:Comparison of wiki farms.

As to the arbitrariness of the mood of the deleting editors see some of the latest edit summaries by Cybercobra who initiated the latest round of removal of much of Comparison of wiki farms.

The full version of the article (October 13, 2009) before the latest mass removal of most of the article:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_wiki_farms&oldid=319693128

Diffs: one. two. Edit summaries:

One: "General: prune listcruft; remove anything w/ Alexa > 1 million & no article"

Two: "General: further prune Alexa > 500,000"

Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used to remove most of the article. From around 50 wiki farms to around 10 wiki farms.

Some major work was done by Michaeldsuarez recently to update all of the Alexa info. Keeping Alexa updated was the main complaint of Ronz who is the main removalist involved.

I don't have much time to spend on this, so others need to get involved. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I see there's already a place on the article's talk page to discuss this issue, Talk:Comparison_of_wiki_farms#Removal_of_non-notable_entries. Is there a reason the discussion can't proceed there?

A more general note...I'm concerned by your choice of language. Article disputes can tend to get heated when you feel that lots of work is being lost, but you can't disparage those with whom you disagree as "removalists" motivated by an "arbitrar[y] mood." Please assume good faith and avoid using polarizing characterizations of opposing views and the people who hold them. Postdlf (talk) 17:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The editors involved do almost nothing but remove stuff from articles. The terms are not disparaging. "Removalist" and "deletionist" are not disparaging. They are accurate. Many people proudly call themselves deletionist or inclusionist.

The issue has been discussed on the talk page for years. The discussion can continue there, but there needs to be additional discussion here to resolve this issue in my opinion. There are policy issues too. Even if I assume maximum good faith, the choice of the Alexa number seems completely arbitrary to me. We need a policy discussion on Alexa traffic rank numbers used for choosing the number of items in a comparison article list. I suggest a policy number be set for the number of items in such a comparison article. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you even read my talkpage post? Then why are you bringing up Alexa? --Cybercobra (talk) 18:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I wrote my comments here before you changed your inclusion criteria away from Alexa. Your latest version still removes nearly all of the wiki farms. From around 50 to only 12. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies for the misinterpretation. I should not have jumped to conclusions like that. --Cybercobra (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

So if I understand the dispute, those wanting to remove certain listings want to restrict the list to entries that are notable and would presumably merit their own articles, correct? What inclusion standard is urged by those wanting to keep those entries under dispute in the comparison article? Postdlf (talk) 19:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I propose using a higher Alexa number as inclusion criteria. I removed all wiki farms with Alexa higher than 6 million. Since there is one wikilinked farm at 5,357,869. Seems wrong to remove years of work by removing wiki farms with lower (more web traffic) Alexa numbers that don't yet have their own articles. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you disagree though that only wiki farms that merit their own articles should be included? Postdlf (talk) 19:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

That has been discussed for 4 years. The talk page has been fairly quiet about that issue for months. The main dispute a few months ago was how often the Alexa numbers should be updated. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I still don't know your position on my question, so I don't understand your side of the dispute. Postdlf (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

My position is to look at the previous discussions where many people expressed their opinions, and to come to some sort of compromise. If Wikipedia is not going to set a number of allowed items in a comparison list, then we are back to people coming back from time to time to comparison articles after a year or many months, and completely disrupting things again. My suggestion is to grandfather the page at around 40 entries, and the people who want to remove all non-wikilinked items from lists can leave the page alone. Use common sense. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems wrong to remove years of work - WP:EFFORT. I really don't understand the debate here. On one hand we have Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used, then 6 million was chosen as a mostly arbitrary number. So what if there was one at 5,357,869? Why 6 million? Why not 5.4 million? If their traffic changes, will the 6 million number change? We do not need a policy to resolve this, and we especially don't need a policy that just picks an arbitrary number to use. The short answer is that there isn't a magic number for every article (though such a policy would only apply to a handful of articles, another reason not to have a policy for it). This is a normal content dispute that needs mediation, not a forced resolution through policy. Mr.Z-man 20:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:PRESERVE applies. As I said this has been discussed for 4 years. User:Angela mentioned the Alexa number awhile back. See Talk:Comparison of wiki farms/Archive 2#Removals. Angela wrote: "HelpingStudents: Has an Alexa rank of 5 million. I don't think this is notable enough yet to be included." Mediation is an idea that might help. You want to mediate? --Timeshifter (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:PRESERVE does not apply. WP:PRESERVE applies in the case of someone trying to remove poor quality content instead of cleaning it up. In this case quality is not the main issue - significance is - and the choice is to either keep it or remove it; no amount of cleanup will make something more significant. I don't want to mediate, no. There are however plenty of people who do. I see its been suggested on the current talk page at least twice but no one actually made the request. Mr.Z-man 20:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Significance seems to depend on the number of items in the list. Back to the same problem. I thoroughly understand the reasons why some people want to remove from lists all items that don't have their own article. It is a simple rule. There have been many exceptions to the rule, though.

I propose that we keep this article as is for one year. We grandfather it, in other words. After one year we remove all wiki farms that don't have their own article. We note this at the top of the article. This way everyone is happy. There is probably some rule against that though. Is there some policy that would block such a proposal? --Timeshifter (talk) 21:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The language presented by the proposer ("attempt to extinguish... Is it not bizarre..." leads me to believe that the proposer has failed to assume good faith. I suggest that until such time as the proposer can assume good faith, the article be kept in the form he does not approve of. Hipocrite (talk) 14:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The article is probably going to mediation. Please see:

Talk:Comparison of wiki farms#Village Pump and mediation --Timeshifter (talk) 14:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright issues

I have two questions I can't seem to find answers for:

1. If I have bought a painting or other original artwork am I allowed to use a photo of it (which I have taken myself) in a Wikipedia article? If there are any restrictions - what are they?

2. If I bought some photos from a photographer years ago who is now assumed to have almost certainly passed away by now, am I allowed to use them to illustrate an article? And, as above, if there are any restrictions - what are they?

Many thanks for any help you may be able to give.

Yours sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

1. That you own the physical painting is irrelevant for copyright purposes. The copyright is most likely held by the artist. If the artist is long-dead, the painting may have entered the public domain (depending on jurisdiction, when the art was first displayed publicly (if at all), and the year the artist died). The good folks at Media copyright questions should be able to help if you can provide this information.

2. Again, that the photographer is dead is not sufficient. Whether it is in the public domain depends on the same factors as above.

If the images are in the public domain, they can be used on Wikipedia. If they are not, they almost certainly cannot (unless you can adhere to the non-free content criteria). I hope that's at least a little bit helpful. Steve Smith (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

By the way, in some countries (but not all) copyright protection for photos is shorter than that for other works of art. MBelgrano (talk) 12:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you both for your helpful answers. I will contact the Media copyright people for spefic answers about specific works of art and photos. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 13:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

When is it time to block/ban for uploading copyrighted images?

A large percentage of Grbpradeep's uploads are problematic images: either copyrighted images that don't pass our nonfree content criteria or even claim to, or not-necessarily-copyrighted images without evidence of permission and/or evidence of authorship. Just today, I've listed three of his files at FFD, tagged several more under WP:F6, and voted in another FFD nomination that included several of his images. See his talk page for details. You'll see there that many deletion warnings have been issued, and some editors have given more specific warnings and explanations of our copyright policies, but nothing substantive has been done. When does the time come that we say, "Thanks for your helpful photographs and text, but you've violated our copyright policies too many times"? Nyttend (talk) 15:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me that the process could be modified to have a system of escalating warnings; obviously dropping the same friendly copyvio notice is simply not sufficient. Personally I would say that if someone continues uploading copyvios after the "friendly" notice, they should be warned that further copyvios will result in a block. Shereth 15:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Three strikes, just like we use to handle questionable vandels. That is, maybe they upload a picture and don't understand our non-free approach, which is completely fine and one warning is fair for that. A second time on their second attempt is a possible mistake, as possibly a third time. But if they aren't getting the picture after that (with reasonable expectations that they have read their talk page messages), then its time to consider a short block and a firm pointer to how we handle non-free content. --MASEM (t)

Someone uploading a copyrighted image in good faith should be treated as someone making a bad edit in good faith -- that is, don't consider it a "strike" like an obvious vandal or kid-like nonsense. Now of course repeated offenses after warnings are a different story. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Underlining with dots

I don't know whether this is a technical or a policy issue, so I have posted it on both Village Pumps.

Within the last 24 hours, seemingly random underlining with dots has appeared all over Wikipedia. (Is there a name for it?) In my opinion it destroys the readability of Wikipedia articles. It makes words and phrases jump off the page. As far as I can tell, it serves no useful purpose at all, but if people really like the extra linking function there's got to be a less annoying way to mark the links. Can we revert back to yesterday on this thing? HowardMorland (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've not seen it. Can you provide an example article where you've seen it, or are you seeing it everywhere? It might be an issue specific to your web browser. Postdlf (talk) 17:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. It seemed to go away on its own. It wasn't there the next time I logged on. Then it was again; then it wasn't. When it was happening, it would offer links to other things on the web with similar names, including Wikipedia articles. Maybe it was just my computer. I was using the Firefox browser. HowardMorland (talk) 18:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Dotted underline is the default style for the <abbr> markup. Templates such as {{circa}} use it. What you've got sounds more like an adware infection though. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 18:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Were I HowardMorland, I would scan my computer immediately for adware and other malware. Powers ^T 19:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

privileges for anon IPs

I was wondering if abilities such as undo should still be allowed for anonymous IPs. I don't know if this has been discussed or is 'heretical' to the idea of Wikipedia. We have bots to watch for vandalism, and are looking to the review of articles, do we still need to allow full access for anon IPs? Is it time to review? Alaney2k (talk) 20:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Do we get lots of abuse of the undo feature? I haven't seen much, but then I don't do much vandal fighting these days. --Tango (talk) 21:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I know of a case recently. By itself, one case is not much, I know. I think that a review of what an anon can do just might be in order. Maybe it has not been done in a while. On the line of trying to prevent abuse or hacks. It is not something that we have a bot to check for, and maybe we don't want to dedicate a bot to it. Alaney2k (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a slippery slope between "good faith proposals to stop abuse of certain features" and "lets make it harder for IPs to edit because they are IPs". This proposal, unlike the last three we've had in a month is actually a good faith proposal. But it is still too close to that slippery slope. We do not ever discriminate against an editor just because he/she decides to edit under an IP address instead of signing in. Anyone/everyone has the right to edit under an IP. I have seen IPs undo vandalism, and yes have been surprised when I see that, but we shouldnt be surprised. There are lots of IPs that do good work here and have the same hatred of vandalism as we do. We must remember that many of the users here start as IP users, if we make it harder for IPs to edit and get addicted to Wikipedia (oh, and yes it can be an addiction!) then its not like they'll just decide to sign up. They will instead just not edit. We need more editors doing good, not restrict good editors because of possible misuse of functions. Punish those that do bad. Politely encourage good IPs to sign up.Camelbinky (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to speak for anon IPs. Those you noticed who undid vandalism might have been editors who have not logged in. I've done that sort of thing myself. Would it be much of a hardship for anon IPs to not have undo? Probably not. I did think that since my last edit, that of course they should be able to undo their own edits. Maybe we could allow them to do undos of other anons, but not editor edits. Is that too complex? I am not trying to paint anon ips as bad. I think that anon ips would be fine without having the undo feature (of others' edits only, if that is sufficient). They could still do undos, with edits, which would be slower, and might dissuade bad behaviour. I would think becoming an editor and having the undo would be a positive reason to sign up, though, no? Not having it might not be much of a negative to new users. I think of it more like graduated licensing. Alaney2k (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this is a good idea, and by-itself wouldnt be an undue burden on IPs, but on the flipside- what about a year from now a more restrictive proposal comes up (like the three we've had this month) in which the proposer or a supporter states "well, we already took away the undo button, why not this?". Where does it end? Perhaps looking at the flipside can help; yes taking away the undo button wont hurt, but will leaving IPs the undo button hurt us? Perhaps there isnt a large number of IPs using the undo, but is that really supporting the idea that the undo is being abused? I'm conflicted on this issue because I really dont want in the future this proposal, if it goes through, being used as justification for the continued restriction of IPs. We see signed up users vandalizing and being disruptive all the time. Since it is so easy to sign up the vandalism we see as IPs will just be transfered to vandalism by usernames. Making it harder to edit as an IP may not drive the good ones to sign up as much as you think, it may actually encourage the good ones to not show up at all and encourage the bad ones to sign up instead. Those with disruptive tendencies tend to be more dedicated to what they want to do than the good people in this world.Camelbinky (talk) 21:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for putting forth the 'flipside.' I appreciate Wikipedia's open-ness. That is important to me, although what with people watching for notability, liability issues and vandalism, etc., it might be a bit of a myth already. (welcome to the 21st century! :-( ) The very idea of anon ips editing is good, very important. The implications; that's what we have to watch out for. (and the implications of the implications) And I think that will go on forever. Abuse; counter it; discuss; change maybe. Are we protecting those who are doing good well enough? It's a bit of a trade-off and we need as many minds as possible to bring forth their opinions. I do think that what you propose 'the because we did x, we can do y' argument would be shot down in and of itself. It would not be enough to get consensus, I'm sure. This is Wikipedia after all. As for the moving of the abuse to the logged on editors -that's a good point and I don't have a counter to that; I've got to think about that. (would anon ip undo controls be ineffective? etc.) And that's what this discussion is about; let's follow this thread through. Alaney2k (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm currently being stalked by a multiple IP user, whose main goal is to revert my edits (PS: it's threatened me on my userpage, which I've reverted). GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You must be following me around. :-) Your case is an example, you should describe it here. Alaney2k (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, an anon who has used the IPs 166.205.133.8 & 166.205.4.61 & 166.205.7.162 & 166.205.135.183 (and likely more to come), has been reverting my edits thse last 2 days. GoodDay (talk) 22:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

WOW. I'm sorry and disheartened to hear such an incident. I hope you have brought this to ANI and some admin has been banning these IPs as they happen. I believe my issues with this proposal have been appropriately dealt with and I do now through my support behind it. Whatever the next step is for this to go ahead, go for it, I encourage it for what its worth.Camelbinky (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of the idiot behind these IPs, I don't think removing the (undo) function from IPs is a good thing at all. In my mind, a wrongly done (undo) actually makes vandalism more obvious. Let's say that I realise that two pages have the same small error, and I fix them, but then an IP comes and reverts both: on one page, the IP simply goes into the history and reverts without leaving any edit summary (or leaving a deceitful summary), while on the other page, the IP uses the undo feature. The standard summary for an undo is much longer and thus easier to see, and when you realise that the IP hasn't reverted vandalism or another sort of unconstructive edit, the IP's edit immediately becomes suspect. However, the lack of an edit summary gives less visual reason to suspect vandalism, and the presence of a good-looking summary is even less. Let's not remove from potential vandals a way to make their damage easier to revert. Nyttend (talk) 13:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

It's my firm belief (and hope), that registration will become mandatory. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) IPs abuse the Undo feature sometimes, but, it's also used for good more often. Users abuse the Undo feature more often than IPs do...--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 13:34, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

While I very much appreciate the legitimate arguments for this proposal, I tend to agree with Nyttend; it's easier to spot and quickly revert an illegitimate "undo" (especially one that's a bit buried in the edit history) than a vandal edit without any edit summary.--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

As someone who is not particularly fond of IPers, the abuse I've seen from them does not usually come in the form of undo's and most of the undo's I've seen are appropriate. If IPers are seen as casual editors then it's hard to think of a more casual edit that undoing random vandalism, so this ban would, imo, take away the ability to do the thing they're best at.--RDBury (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Undo is a feature more useful for doing good edits than bad. I see a lot of undos by anonymous IPs that are legitimate reversions of vandalism inserted by other IPs. If an IP wanted to revert some content removal or replacement without undo they may decide to just remove the new offending text without putting back the old, or put back the old via copy and paste, losing wiki formatting. On the other hand, an IP trying to vandalise isn't trying to restore eloquently formatted prose, so undo is less useful to them. I also agree with Nyttend: the undo edit summaries make it easier to see what's going on in histories. For example, an IP undo of a registered user is likely to be mischief, while an IP undo of another IP is likely to be a vandalism fix. • Anakin ^(talk) 05:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Not being interested in wiki-bureaucracy, I've kept my anonymity, despite the fact I've been on wikipedia for years, and have witnessed the perpetual bloat of rules and regulations - to the point where now, one needs not argue, they need only cite an appropriate regulation without considering the spirit. This idea's another globule of saliva in the face of the spirit of wikipedia - an encyclopedia where ANYONE can easily contribute, even if it's just correcting the grammar of a statement.

RS and Newspaper Hoaxes

There is a delicious story in the Guardian today about UK newspapers getting hoaxed with ludicrous stories that they obviously didn't even try to verify before publishing. Of course it is served up with lashings of schadenfreude as there is nothing a newspaper loves more than seeing a competitor get shafted, even so, it is a serious issue and I thought I should mention it in case it has any implications for the WP:RS policy which tends to treat newspaper coverage as reliable. Even if it doesn't, it is amusing and it is a nice object lesson on why verifiability matters. Starsuckers celebrity hoax dupes tabloids --DanielRigal (talk) 22:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It has little implication towards RS policy. Generally newspapers are reliable, but we use common sense and no source or any kind is ALWAYS considered reliable and above suspicion. You may want to bring this to the RS/N to let them know of the occurance so they can be on the look out. At the RS/N we deal with newspapers all the time and sometimes they are reliable, sometimes not. That's why we apply policies and guidelines with alot of leeway and interpretation; using our commonsense to decide what is reliable and what isnt.Camelbinky (talk) 01:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Side note, Wikipedia has an entry for Starsuckers. To me, it's not tabloids that are an issue with reliability, people generally already know they're not reliable. It's more the local outlets that are accurate 99% of the time but are occasionally taken in by a huckster or crackpot. There are also the stories that get repeated over and over by otherwise reliable sources without anyone knowing where the story originally came from; see [6] for the case I'm most familiar with. Thanks for pointing out the story though.--RDBury (talk) 16:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Pronounciation

I visited the entry for Albert Speer, which contains the following: Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer[1] and pronounced /ˈʃpɛɐ/;

I understand that Wikipedia has a pronounciation policy but when I, a native English speaker, holder of a law degree _and_ a Masters in English, don't have a clue about how to pronounce "Speer" after reading the entry, there is a problem with the policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.183.92.50 (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

What would you suggest as an alternative to IPA? Powers ^T 20:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

If someone could design a web-based pronounce-o-bot that could speak IPA, and hook it into wikipedia... --King Öomie 20:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, the IPA you posted describes the British Received Pronunciation of the word "Speer". Which I suppose you could render "Spay-ah" or "Spee-ah". --King Öomie 20:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Or I could be wrong and he's German. Damn. I'm pretty sure that's an 'SH' sound on the front, there. --King Öomie 20:22, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Now, I will start this by stating that I don't have a set of standards that could replace the IPA pronounciation. However, I like linguistics, and had to learn the IPA alphabet and pronounciations while in college. I was not a linguistics major, so after that class I never had to use the IPA again. And to be honest, I remember almost none of it. Now saying that, I can guarantee that the vast majority of the population has never learned the IPA alphabet. So while this is a guess, but I would assume that 99.9% of people reading articles on WP have no clue what the IPA symbols stand for, and gives the reader no real idea how to actually pronounce the word in question. We just add it to the articles because it is the professional standard. I prefer when articles use more common ways of explaining pronounciation (for instance, I cited the pronounciation of "Chipotle" from a news article as "chi-POAT-lay"). That is more helpful, and I'd hope more articles would use phonetic pronounciations rather than relying on IPA, for the simple reason that the reader will actually understand it. Angryapathy (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

IPA pronunciations in articles are unsourced 99.99% of the time, and unsourceable 95% of the time. Plus, they disrupt the flow of the first sentence, and (as noted above) are unintelligible to the general readership. Plus, that's what dictionaries are for. Why do we include them at all? Even if it said "pronounced like 'shpair'", it would still disrupt the article. If they really need to be in the article, I'd stick them over in the infobox where possible, as: [[Wikipedia:IPA for English|IPA pronunciation]: /ˈʃpɛɐ/ so it would at least be clearer where you can go for help with IPA; right now, it isn't obvious that the pronunciation is linked. But better still, IMHO, is to nuke them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem with directly spelling out pronunciation is that it only disambiguates non-phonetic text if the reader speaks the same language (or dialect) that you do. There's any number of ways that any number of languages can pronounce "chi-POAT-lay" and be completely correct. But under IPA, there's only one way to pronounce /chə-pōt'lā/. --King Öomie 20:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

And then 9 people will then know how to pronounce it correctly. Angryapathy (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Or, we could spell it out, and only people within 50 miles of the poster will know how. There really isn't a "good" solution to the most-used international pronunciation alphabet being so underused. --King Öomie 20:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of WP:RESPELL, though it's not perfect either. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that a pronunciation guide of some kind is needed in some cases. In particular when it's a name that sounds very different from the way it would be pronounced in English. Leonhard Euler comes to mind; German has this weird rule about 'eu' so the correct pronunciation is very different that the way it appears to an English speaker. Note that the article includes BOTH the IPA and a phonetic spelling. I can see the reasons for using the IPA; it's an international standard and it's free. But in addition to the issue that it's unintelligible to most people, it doesn't allow for acceptable regional variations. So, for example, the name "Potter" could have 4 or 5 IPA spellings depending on the country and region of the speaker. My old American Heritage dictionary had a system to get around this, but they also has a long essay to explain how to use it. RESPELL looks like it's using the same idea but with any system is going to require some effort on the part of the readers if they want to make sure they are getting the correct pronunciation.--RDBury (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that IPA is the only choice for non-ambiguous and verifiable pronunciations. If you don't understand IPA, then take the time to learn it and we'll all be better off. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 15:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Technically true, perhaps, but how many dictionaries and other general reference works use IPA for their pronunciation guides? IPA is a tool for professional linguists, and using it in a general reference work is not very helpful to a reader since so few people are familiar with the conventions, and the description "Voiceless bilabial fricative" means absolutely nothing to most people. SDY (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

This is supposed to be a general purpose encyclopedia, people should not have to go out of their way to be able to use our articles fully. In an ideal world, yes, IPA is the best tool for the job; however, we live in the practical world, where 99.99% of our readers and probably most editors do not know IPA. Mr.Z-man 17:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Why are multiple editors saying there are more than one way to pronounce things like someone's last name? Do alot of people have more than one pronounciation for their last name? Because I have one, no matter how many people mispronounce it there is ONE (mine) correct way, and I would assume that is the fact for everyone's last name. Many words out there have a correct way as well, though hillbillies in certain parts may mispronounce things. Out of the MANY MANY words in the English language few are pronounced differently in England, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. "About" between Canada and the US is probably the biggest difference, and even that one has been declining in recent years. Alot of the differences are differences in words themselves (lift vs elevator, lorry vs truck, chips vs french fry, potato crisp vs potato chip). We should use the most general pronounciation of a word in the dialect in which the word is generally from. There may still be problems though. Appalachia is pronounced differently by the people who live in them than by the majority of Americans; which would we use? I say the general majority, not the hillbillies who live there. Just because certain areas of the south and west of the US have not had a history of education and standard pronunciation as the rest of the English speaking world, it doesnt mean their pronunciation is "equally correct".Camelbinky (talk) 17:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What about the pronunciation of "Oregon"? Powers ^T 18:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

TV spoilers

I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I think there should be a spoiler policy to this effect. The current spoiler policy needs clarified. Giving details of episodes that have already aired is fine, as a reader who is reading an article when they know they aren't up-to-date in their watching should expect they might come across spoilers, but to give away plot details about future episodes means that it is never safe to read an article about a tv show even if you have seen all the latest episodes. Big Way (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Spoiler. The existence of a heading such as "Plot" or "Ending" signifies that a comprehensive plot summary follows. Hence spoiler warnings are not warranted. ^Bongo_matic 05:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I did see that page, that's why I said "The current spoiler policy needs clarified.", and I didn't say anything about headings. What makes you think all such details are given in a section called Plot ? Big Way (talk) 05:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

See WP:WAF, which is explicitly referenced at the spoiler guideline. ^Bongo_matic 05:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Talk about empathy failure. Why do you think I brought this up here? I said I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I said that because I saw plot details that I didn't want to see until I'd had a chance to see the episode for myself. Do you think pointing me at some other page is going to make me want to see plot details, or make me think that Wikipedia should give future details? Big Way (talk) 05:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If the spoiler is given by reliable media sources, we should include it if appropriate. If it's coming from forums or other less-than-reliable sources, then no we shouldn't include it. But as noted, we don't avoid the inclusion of spoilers because what is a spoiler to one may be common sense to another and is too subjective. --MASEM (t) 05:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If an article tells you what is going to happen in an episode a few weeks from now, then there is nothing ambiguous about that. It is a spoiler pure and simple. I don't understand what you mean by using the phrase "common sense" to describe plot details about a future episode. Big Way (talk) 05:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If a reader doesn't wish to see plot details revealed, then he or she can elect not to read plot summaries. ^Bongo_matic 05:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't reading a plot summary. The details weren't in a plot summary. Big Way (talk) 05:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Then that's clearly out of guideline. ^Bongo_matic 05:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The work itself is a reliable (primary) source for its own plot, which is not controversial. Primary sources are fine for this purpose. ^Bongo_matic 05:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

How can the work be a reliable source if it hasn't been broadcast yet? Big Way (talk) 05:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

We're an encyclopedia not a TV guide. Spoiler warnings aren't appropriate. • Anakin ^(talk) 06:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

if only vague information on the plot is available, then that may be all that can be given, but it still should not be written in the typical manner -- e.g. "They are then confronted with a surprising menace." and stopping there is never acceptable. But the information should be updated to reflect the whole story when the material is broadcast, using either the program directly as source or a reliable review. There is no excuse for our not telling the ending when it is known. The purpose of unfinished plot summaries is for advertising the program to attract viewers, but it's pretty basic that we do not do write in a promotional manner for any type of anything. If the actual wording of the program's official trailer or other advertising is itself significant, then Masem's suggestion might be appropriate, and it should be given in addition to the full plot--this may be the case for some really major suspense programs. DGG ( talk ) 06:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I think Big Way has a point about plot summaries or spoilers in articles about episodes before they air. If it's after the episode airs then the episode itself serves as a source. But if the episode hasn't aired yet then this isn't true, so where is the information coming from? Reliable sources generally don't include spoilers. If the editor putting the information in the article has a copy of the script or has seen a seek preview then the information isn't verifiable. Otherwise the editor is using rumor mills or guesswork to get the information and this isn't reliable. Studios do go to some trouble to ensure that plot details don't become common knowledge before the event and whoever is circumventing that must be doing it outside WP guidelines in one of these ways.--RDBury (talk) 13:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The following information which I've hidden in a collapsible navbox appears in the House (TV series) article in a section called Main characters:

I think something should be done to avoid information like this appearing randomly in an article. Perhaps it could be put in a separate article called Upcoming events (House TV series) or some such until it has actually happened and then it can be put in the main article. Big Way (talk) 18:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If it's already been reported in reliable sources that a particular actor is leaving a show in advance of that occurring within an episode that has been broadcast, it's hardly a secret that it's going to happen. Postdlf (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Yea, you can't even google search on that particular actor and not be spoiled looking at the results. If it is being reported in mainstream press, it is not a spoiler. --MASEM (t) 18:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)