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December 23

Somebody wrote me a message in Arabic

Tonight, I was browsing the Arabic Wikipedia (even though I can't understand a word of it) when I noticed someone had left me a note on my user page. Does anyone know what it says? I imagine it's just a welcome template, but that would be rather strange, since I've never made any edits on that wiki. I'd also like you to look into the contributions of the user who left me the message. Does s/he compulsively go around leaving welcome messages to users who have never edited? This user should be got after and looked at (yes, I know this only the Reference Desk no the Arabic AN/I, but still....).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It is a welcome template. The Arabic wikipedia has a page just like this. Anyone who wants to welcome all new users can use that log to do so. It's perfectly ok. I hope that clears things up. Happy editing! JW..[ T..C ] 03:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I just clicked on the link you gave and got one too. Looks like this bot welcomes new users on ar.wikipedia. — æk^Talk 03:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Most of the individual language WPs have that feature. If you have established a global account, you'll get such a message the first time you visit each particular WP version. Deor (talk) 03:22, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, dude. That is seriously fucked up.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 05:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Shoes

What is shoetips?174.3.102.6 (talk) 05:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The tip of your shoes, I would imagine. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 05:59, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The text that's being asked about is:

...within each U.S. subculture there is little variety in headgear among U.S. men. That is because fashion sense is considered unmanly in the United States and because for those men who defy this cultural bias, fashion sense is usually more a matter of shoetips and the cut of one's clothing.

Here the author is saying that for these particular Americans, fashion sense means more than the shape of the tips of a man's shoes or the cut of his clothes. The tips of some shoes are of a different color or material than the rest of the shoe, some are very round, some are very narrow and sharp, some are wingtips (with, Wikipedia says, "a toe cap in a W shape") and some (required for construction work) have steel toes. There have been different cultural associations with different types and shapes of shoes, including their tips. It's not my field, but narrow-pointed shoes have at times been popularly associated with an rebel teenage culture, and wingtips with a more suburban, middle-class one. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:00, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It could be an alternative name for shoe taps -- that would certainly indicate a sense of fashion." DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 14:59, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

When a reference is made to "shoetips" it is a reference to the phenomenon in which very small variations assume great fashion significance such as in the design of very classically and conservatively styled men's dress shoes. Wingtips are a general example. Bus stop (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hirsebeutels Hymne

What would be this title's literal meaning, and what might be its significance in the context of the Nazi era? The poem—three stanzas in German, undated, author unknown—makes ironic or cynical note of how the vaunted purity of the German Reich, that puts "Abraham" to the knife, is maintained by sloughing its sins off on "our" children. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hymne in German means "anthem" (not really "hymn" as that word is used in English). Hirsebeutel sounds like a name; the -s at the end puts it in the genitive case. However, "Hirsebeutels Hymne" gets 0 Google hits, so I'm at a dead end for further research. +Angr 14:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it is probably a misspelling for de:Hirschbeutel. Still no hits for a hymn though.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Probably not a mis-spelling: Hirsebeutel means "millet bag" -92.11.141.194 (talk) 16:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, true.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd arrived at the "millet bag" via Leo, which prompted me to post here in hopes that some such allusion might be familiar to German-culture cognoscenti. The possibility of a misprint for "Hirsch..." occurred to me because of a handwritten notation in what's apparently Polish orthography: "Hirsz..." – though that sort of mishmash is frequent enough in this archival material at the hands of polyglot immigrants. As for the title and text, I doubt they'd have made it to the Internet. The lack of provenance on this item is frustrating. Any insights are appreciated! -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Among the only 8 google hits I received for "Hirsebeutel", there was one text from 1884, where a (typically daft) recruit is addressed as "Hirsebeutel" by his commanding officer See here. Maybe the "millet bag" was an accessory sometimes used metonymously for lowly recruits, or maybe not. (The usage of "Brotsack" ("bread bag", a small bag carried by Swiss soldiers) in the title of Max Frisch's Blätter aus dem Brotsack suggests that the author is not an officer, for example). I have never heard the term "Hirsebeutel" in any remarkable way, personally. As an aside, the Word "Hymne" can also mean a type of poem in German, something like an ode; its meanings aren't limited to anthem. Is it possible for you to post or link to the entire text, or do you have any other information regarding this Hymne? ---Sluzzelin talk 21:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Did anyone search Google for key phrases in the poem, rather than the (uncertain) title? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The document was acquisitioned in mid-1993; from its appearance it's possibly a page from a self-published slim volume of poetry, otherwise quite anonymous. A Google search of its more idiosyncratic phrases yields nothing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

OP adds: Singling out a word from a poem or artwork's title and querying its significance in the source language's culture is a favorite research device of us translators. Whether Hirsebeutel or Hirschbeutel, it seems peculiar, hence likely a deliberate choice and one that escapes my understanding. As a sample of the text, the first of the three stanzas begins identical to the Deutschlandslied and continues with a presumably eponymic reference to a "Nachmann" (where the last line's "Abraham" quite clearly stands for the Jews):

Deutschland, Deutschland,
über alles,
über alles in der Welt,
solange der aus Nazi-
schlamm Geborene
vor den Nachmanns
auf die Knie fällt.

(punctuation verbatim). Sorry to have so little to offer, but this is how it goes. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Where is this "A" originally from???

• File:AdobeSystems.svg
• File:Tabula_Rasa.jpg
• File:Nintendo_GameCube_logo.jpg

Hi. I'm not sure this is the most adequate Reference Desk for this question (it would depend on the answer), but here goes. I've been trying to trace the origins of this particular and very common A design, but I have absolutely no clue where it comes from originally. I've seen it in many, many places... For example, I happened to find a contest for designing a logo for "Alpha Elevators" here, and many of the entries used this special "A" design (like this one, this one, and this one). Why is this particular "A" so popular? And where did it come from??

...Might it be some weird variation on Delta, or the capital Lambda? It certainly looks to me like a middle ground between Lambda and the modern L (or the more similar phoenician Lamedh: ). I've tried looking for a similar figure across several alphabets, but so far the closest thing I've found to it is the Coptic equivalent of lambda: . Or maybe, it's simply a design someone used once for their company or store logo, and people started ripping it off? Perhaps I'm complicating myself too much? I really have no idea. Does anyone know about this? Any help is greatly appreciated! Kreachure (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Another possibility is that a particular font or goup of fonts featured an A that looks like that and use of such a font occurs enough that it's gotten popular. Though I'm just guessing here. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

"Stop" by Aldo Novarese (part of the Linotype library) has a similar though not identical capital "A": the gap or opening is on the top left, not on the bottom right. See here. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There is also the Sinaloa font family. What I think the Adobe "A", the Stop font, and the Sinaloa font have in common is that they were designed in the 1970s or early '80s to have a streamlined, "futuristic" look. I am fairly certain that this has little or nothing to do with the ancient Greek, Phoenician, or Coptic scripts. Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The A in the Star Trek: The Next Generation title looks kind of like that Stop font. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks to me like an abstraction of the lowercase italic a; it's the only sensible way to trace it in one line. — Sebastian 22:56, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. --Kjoonlee 06:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Look at some of the a's in uncial script, just before (as I understand it, perhaps wrongly) capital letters became distinct from what (after the printing-press) we now call lower-case. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The A in the Adobe logo, was designed in 1982 by Marva Warnock, wife of John Warnock (one of the two founders of Adobe Systems). The original log (which you can see on page 4 of this PDF) was a bit different than the current one, in that it spelled out "ADOBE" and the right limb of the A didn't extend all the way down. As Marco Polo said above, the font was certainly intended to have a "futuristic" geometric look, and is unlikely to be a direct reference to "ancient" scripts. Abecedare (talk) 07:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much... :3 Kreachure (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

December 24

Vivid? Really?

On (US) television an advert is currently running, perhaps for a stop-smoking drug. Per FDA regulations, nearly half the ad is disclaimers, one of which is "may cause vivid or intense dreams."

Does anyone know what the FDA-approved, medical definition of a "vivid dream" might be? Surely it's more than just bright colors, because lots of drugs (most of which don't require a prescription!) can induce that, right?

Happy holidays to all, by the way...

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It sounds kind of like weasel-words, in sort of a good way; not just the "vivid" part, but the "intense" part. Whether a dream is vivid or intense would be a judgment call on the part of the dreamer. It's unlikely there's a federal standard for the term. It's probably more of a summary of observed results. By the way, "vivid" derives from "to live", hence it means "lively", and one of its synonyms is "intense". So it may cause intense or intense dreams. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of "vivid" in this context was dreams that are a lot more realistic, perhaps even difficult to distinguish from reality. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Could be. But you don't have to be on drugs to have vivid and/or intense dreams. They might have been better off saying "more vivid or intense than you normally get". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

And as with any other drug, it would have been through a battery of tests, in which such side effects would have been observed. If you get any kind of prescription drug nowadays, you get like a book that explains every possible side effect of the drug. Those effects would be known through testing required for FDA approval. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

You can also get intense dreams without being on drugs. In general, when someone says "vivid dream" I don't think intense, I think realistic. Maybe it's just me. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Vivid" literally means "alive" or "living", i.e. seeming real. The disclaimers are likely just trying to come up with a couple of words to summarize what they observed during testing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I suspect that this is based on self reporting rather than some sort of objective standard in a laboratory. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

A fair amount of lab testing would involve self-reporting. If someone says, "This drug makes me nauseous", I don't know how you could measure that. More likely what they would measure is the percentage of test subjects who reported a given side effect. Like if they tested 100 people and only 1 of them had vivid dreams, vs. 50 of them having vivid dreams. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the definition of "vivid dreams" is pretty much the one suggested by a straightforward interpretation of the English words:

• This paper describes the term parenthetically as "unusually clear, long dreams with elaborate scenario and possibly strong emotions, that occurred only when sleeping and were acutely remembered".
• The Parkinsons Disease Non-Motor Scale has a question for the patient on the topic, which simply asks if they have experienced "Intense, vivid dreams or frightening dreams". Since the patient is given no further information on how to interpret these terms, the answer would reflect the usual layman understanding of the terms. The use of the term in the ad you saw is likely to be similar, rather than there being a special "FDA approved" definition.

Abecedare (talk) 04:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think 'acutely remembered' is important. As a layman, my impression of a vivid dream was one that, even if you knew you were dreaming, still seemed completely realistic. Or that after you woke, instead of it seeming like a dream, it still seemed completely real even though you now realized it wasn't. kwami (talk) 06:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

So funny -- I actually just had a seminar on the tobacco cessation drug to which you are referring, varenicline. "Vivid dreams" is a formal term used to describe intense dreams, the content of which one might normally not experience. Suicidal thoughts and irrational behavior are also side-effects. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Six days left and I'm still uncomfortable calling them the "ohs", "aughts" or "noughties". How about you?

Civic Cat (talk) 17:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a intelligible question? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

2000's. What do you call them?Civic Cat (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

2000s itself isn't very satisfying, because it is ambiguous. We use terms like 1800s and 1700s to refer to entire centuries, so 2000s could seem to refer to the entire 21st century. On the other hand, when I was a child (1960s-1970s), I remember the decade 1900–1909 being called the 1900s, so maybe there isn't such a risk of ambiguity while the century is still underway. I agree that aughts and noughties are also unsatisfying. Neither has caught on in the United States. Also, the first sounds archaic, and the second sounds silly. The word nought is not in common usage in the United States at least, so the word sounds like naughties, and for most people, the decade has not been fun at all, much less "naughty". (What went on on Wall Street and in the City of London went several steps beyond naughty.) There isn't a widely accepted term for the decade in the United States, but I think we will end up with 2000s or ohs. I prefer the latter. Looking back on the decade, a sigh seems fitting. Marco polo (talk) 18:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Not this time around, but "oughty eight" was customary, if informal, American in 1908. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Marco Polo, and may you (and all Wikipedians) have a merry teens.
:-D
Civic Cat (talk) 19:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The expression "2000s" might refer to a decade, a century, or a millennium. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

For disambiguation with written figures, I propose the 2000s, the 2000s, and the 2000s, respectively.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:54, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is another proposal: the 200\0s, the 20\00s, and the 2\000s. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:33, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I propose the two thousands for the millennium, the twenty hundreds for the century, the twenty zeroes (abbreviated to the zeroes) for the first decade, and the twenty tens (abbreviated to the tens) for the second decade.Wavelength (talk) 19:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck with that. I propose "the third millennium" for the millennium, "the twenty-first century" for the century, "the first decade of the twenty-first century" for the first decade, and "the second decade of the twenty-first century" for the second decade. +Angr 21:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia has information about determining the first year and the last year of a decade, a century, and a millennium.

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Twenty aughts" and "twenty tens" are pretty normal, even if the former sounds a bit 19th century. kwami (talk) 04:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

In my dialect, "noughties" sounds just like "naughties". That one won't get very far except in retrospect by our puritanical grandchildren. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:51, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there's any dialect of English where they aren't homophones. +Angr 10:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

For the record, the decade still has a year and a bit to run. Since the system started on year 1, the next decade should start in 2011. And yes, I attempted to celebrate teh millenium in 2001; nobody listened to me then either. Of course you could say that a decade is simply a period of ten years, in which case, every day is the end of one.- Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you're going to find that convention will say otherwise. There are already stories appearing about the first decade of the 2000s (which I would tend to call the "early 2000s", just as 1900-1909 is the "early 1900s"). That's counting 2000 through 2009, because 2000 begins with "two thousand". This is not to be confused with the 21st Century, which began on January 1, 2001, and will end on December 31, 2100; nor the Third Millenium, which began on January 1, 2001, and will end on December 31, 3000, assuming nothing bad happens In the Year 2525; if man is still alive. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:31, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

That's simply an inappropriate appeal to popularity. Most people are wrong. Now, let's see whether I can find any lives to ruin, grass to protect, etc. etc. etc.... :) - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The dilemma is that reliable sources and common usage will trump what we might think is the "true" way of saying it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Serendipitously Washington Post has just published an article addressing the OP's question. Abecedare (talk) 04:48, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Names of decades, centuries, and millennia 1000 years ago

One thousand years ago, how did people refer to the decade 1000–1009, the decade 1010–1019, the century 1000–1099, and the millennium 1000–1999? (Incidentally, I am aware of the Italian expressions for some centuries in Italian culture: Trecento, Quattrocento, Cinquecento, Seicento, and Settecento.) -- Wavelength (talk) 21:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC) ..... [I am revising my message. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC)]

I wonder whether people 1000 years ago referred to decades as unitary concepts at all. I suspect that thinking of "the fifties", "the sixties", "the seventies", etc., is a relatively modern thing to do. I know the 1890s were called the "Gay Nineties" (at least, after the fact they were), and maybe some other decades in the 19th century were thought of as identifiable units, but does it go back earlier than that? +Angr 23:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Around 1000 A.D., very few people (other than a few scribal monks) commonly encountered Dionysian A.D. dates in the course of their everyday life. That's part of why there was no real "Y1K" panic -- some people might be alarmed if they were told by one of their friendly neighborhood monks that it was approaching 1000 years since the birth (or death) of Jesus, but unless they were told by a monk etc, the vast majority of people would have no idea when such an anniversary occurred... AnonMoos (talk) 00:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

According to Arabic numerals#Adoption in Europe, the use of Roman numerals continued to predominate in Europe after the year 1000 (in Roman numerals, M). That might have some relevance. 2009 = MMIX. 2010 = MMX. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

They also didn't need to differentiate between decades, since, unlike the past couple of hundred years, nothing much really changed decade to decade. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Some events are mentioned in the articles 990s, 1000–1009, and 1010s. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure, but that doesn't mean people at the time thought about these decades as entities needing a name. +Angr 10:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

There is the Latin word "decennium", but similar words can be made with any number and time period ("millennium" for example). Adam Bishop (talk) 03:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary's first recorded use of the word "century" to refer to a 100-year period ending in a "00" year comes from 1638. The first similar use of "decade" also dates to the 17th century. Same with "millenium." That's only English, of course, but it gives some indication that measuring time according to the Dionysian system of years was not a major priority in the Middle Ages. If required to identify a range of years in the past, a Medieval scholar might refer to the king who was ruling at the time. ("In the time of the second King Henry after the Conquest," e.g.) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 08:02, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Company Of Heroes (game)

In the WW2 game CoH, the Americans sometimes shout something that sounds like 'Krauts have got a feed on us'. Is this correct? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Have got a bead on us" (i.e., "have us in their gun sights"), perhaps. This sense of bead doesn't seem to be covered in the Wiktionary entry; see, however, senses 7 and 19 here. Deor (talk) 22:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, excellent, thanks! I suppose that makes some sense. Would anyone know if this has been taken from a film or if American soldiers do/did in fact say this sort of thing? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

According to my old Webster's, one version of a bead is a small knob of metal on a rifle, near the muzzle, used for a sight. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that this is the sort of thing that soldiers would have said during WW2. I don't know if the expression remains current. Marco polo (talk) 01:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

to draw a bead on H. L. Mencken in The American Language calls an obvious product of pioneer life, when discussing phrases which originated around the time of the revolutionary war. I found the phrase in a number of memoirs from World War II.—eric 03:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

December 25

Need a 7 letter word meaning last

Playing a game with someone and looking for a 7 letter word pertaining to Nero being the last Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. It must end in the letter h. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

'Last-ish'? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:44, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry :) This online thesaurus gave plenty of words, but not a single one ended in '-h'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

through? impeach? seventh? ("No hairy seventh to him succeeds.")—eric 03:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The word "through" fits nicely. Made a shortcut to Dictionary.com. The solved puzzle then comes out as

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of through with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma, a tasteless history record on the dynasty.

I think it makes sense. He's a really old professor playing these games with me.

Found reference to "No hairy seventh to him succeeds" in Google Books here. Thanks for help.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

If it "makes sense", could someone translate it for me? It doesn't read like any English I know. Bielle (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It's just an old game a very old professor is playing with me. I'll try to break it down to where it makes sense:

• Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of through with the Julio-Claudian dynasty = last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty emperors.
• ...was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals... = ruled the same people as Claudius.
• ...produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma... = left worst reputation of these emperors.
• ...a tasteless history record on the dynasty. = his rule is often associated with tyranny and extravagance.

The game involves coming up with appropiate words that end with certain letters and have a certain count. Examples:

• 7 letter word ending in h = through
• 7 letter word ending in s = mortals
• 7 letter word ending in a = dilemma

The English is not smooth as we are accustom to because it is a very old English game we are playing. He's teaching me some ancient Roman history. I think the gest of the small bio on Nero above is generally correct. Don't you agree?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Another example of the old English game would be below. See if you can solve:

• _ _ _ _ _ _ s of _ _ _ _ _ _ a also, layperson and athlete, activity in the same _ _ _ _ _ a.
  

Answer ---> Perhaps of militia also, layperson and athlete, activity in the same tunica.

Keep in mind, this has something to do with ancient Rome that was around for about 1200 years.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:29, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

For the 7-letter one ending in "h" to refer to a finality, I'd have gone with "epitaph" rather than "through". Grutness...wha? 23:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I like that better myself.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Surely "of epitaph with" makes no sense in English (just like "through")? Admittedly, a replacement is elusive. Ignoring the finality meaning, I'd think perhaps "triumph". - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 10:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of triumph with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma, a tasteless history record on the dynasty.

Better yet, thanks! Otherwise does the short "bio" apply to Nero?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

It could do. Almost every emperor has his successes and failures. Even more so with Nero. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 15:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Turns out the last word has 6 letters, not 7 letters, so it looks like it comes out then:

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of triumph with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals (of Claudius) and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all of the emperors who were not in tunica (used toga instead), a tasteless history record on the ending of the dynasty.

Can someone that is expert on Nero confirm this outcome to be a description of him?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Hair

What is the English term for the triangular extension of hair at the back of the neck? It is at the center of the back of the neck & is shaped like a triangle that is pointed downward and is most noticeable among hairy individuals.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Nape? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:20, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The nape is just the back of the neck. English has no word for the hair there, to my knowledge. Paul Davidson (talk) 10:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

When my barber cuts it that way, he calls it a "taper(ed) back", as opposed to a "square cut" that would go straight across. This is in Canada. And the fact that he just uses the word "back" suggests that there isn't any other word for that part of the hair. --Anonymous, 04:18 UTC, December 26, 2009.

Look up some photos of a Duck's Ass. I'm not screwing with you. Seegoon (talk) 15:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm the above - it made a brief comeback in the UK in the 1970s when 50s retro was chic. Known in polite circles as a D. A. for obvious reasons. Alansplodge (talk) 17:15, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Dried eye fluid

When I wake up, I find that at the corners of my eyes near towards the nose bridge, there are solidified substances. What are they called?--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It is sometimes referred to as Rheum. I hope this helps. JW..[ T..C ] 06:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Dried eye mucus is called "sleep". Paul Davidson (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I used to hear that stuff called "sleepers". It's fair to say that's probably a colloquialism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Monkees Song Lyrics: "Daydream Believer": verse 1, line 5: "Wipe the sleep out of my eyes." Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

eye boogers or eye crusties --Nricardo (talk) 18:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Also sometimes called 'sand' (usually with the clarificatory addition of 'in my/your eyes), from folktale (and modernised) references to The Sandman. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

This question of the clinical term for "eye boogers" has been asked several times on various Reference Desks. Search the archive. It turns out that doctors usually just call it "matter". Despite what some websites claim, it does not appear that "rheum" or "gound" are commonly used as clinical terms for the dried, crusty stuff. I note that our rheum article is completely unreferenced, unless you count the external link to "Memidex free online dictionary and thesaurus."

In Spanish, the word lagañas exists to describe eye boogers. Lagañas has no good English equivalent -- it usually translates to "sleep." The Hero of This Nation (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

When I was little, my parents used to call them "Sleepytimes." Sounds kind of silly now, but that's what I grew up with. ^_^ Kingsfold (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Backwards dictionary

Is there a way to find certain words with the letter they end with? For example, say I was looking for all 4 letter words that end with a. Or I was looking for all 6 letter words ending with an r. Or I was looking for all 10 letter words ending with s. Is there already such a program already out there someplace that provides this?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Any of the many Hangman solvers can do this. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:25, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Some solvers have limitations, but googling "Hangman solver" comes up with any number of them, so you're welcome to try them all out. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I like it! Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

A search for "crossword solver" might turn up some other tools. Also the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on CD includes tools for this. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Evocative (on the question of syntax)

It is an old discussion. I thought someone would comment on this further, but that has not happened. Here is the OP: —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there a word to indicate that a word needs a subsidiary phrase. Eg Evocative or reminiscent which need the "of ...." Kittybrewster ☎ 16:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Phrasal verb seems to be what you're looking for. (But note that "evocative" can be used on its own, to refer to something that brings up emotions. (e.g. google {"very evocative" -"evocative of"} with the quotes, but without the curly braces). -- 128.104.112.94 (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Evocative of" is not a phrasal verb, because "evocative" is not a verb. --Anon, 06:26 UTC, December 22, 2009.

Also see subcategorization, though the article is woefully exiguous. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Some languages might have evocative markers in their lexical or grammatical marking. In English, I doubt there is such thing; other than in poetical natures. However, if you can clarify this with a sentence, then it is easy to understand what you are saying. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of eg "It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley", "the smell is reminiscent of an abattoir". Kittybrewster ☎ 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That is better. My answer is then these words (which I have not read often in contexts but according to corpora) usually form as a nominal in a sentence (though the examples are adjectival here), i.e. by taking of a subsidiary phrase (usually a prepositional phrase, as you said). And as they are adjectives, they can function as adjectives.

And to a different question on whether a word needs a subsidiary phrase in phrasal categories, other than ‘Comp phrase’ which requires a phrase, all other words can stand alone within their phrasal categories.

However, you may be correct on the assumption that ‘evocative’ as a rhetorical marker needs a subsidiary phrase in discourses (not just mentioning the grammatical aspect). If that is case, I do know the word for such feature either. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Kitty's question was perfectly clear (to a native speaker) in its original form. I'm glad Kitty's examples made the question clearer to you, Mihkaw.

I'm going back to the first anon, in the very first answer. The phrasal verb is is evocative of or is reminiscent of, with is as the verb.

You can replace "is evocative of" with the verb "evokes", for example It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley: It evokes the spirit of Manderley. You cannot similarly replace "evocative" when is evocative is used intransitively, because the verb evoke is pretty transitive. For example: It is certainly evocative: *It certainly evokes (although I suppose you might try, it would always sound like it was missing something to me). The of transforms it from intransitive to transitive. Perhaps a linguist could comment. 86.176.191.243 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There are few new problems now, but I add one comment on the OP. The examples as stated above require first a noun phrase, though we see many such samples in English corpora. So I have to conclude that what we see in corpora are not correct as to their contexts in syntax, i.e. the word ‘evocative’ must be a noun or a modified noun before it can take a second AdjComp. One may argue however that the corpora are the most conventionalized speech patterns that give prominence to particular rhetorical elements than their syntax. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization of pronoun "I"

What is the historical justification for capitalizing the word "I"? It doesn't seem to be serving any function in making English easier to understand, and no other word in English has this kind of special rule (except for the vocative "O", sometimes, and He, Him, His to refer to God). Also, is there any chance that this rule will drop out of English in the future? Thanks. 76.204.127.175 (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I went to google and entered [why is i capitalized] and a whole bunch of entries came up, much of it appearing to be speculation. This one [1] seems to be a reasonably scholarly explanation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I (pronoun)#Etymology says:"Capitalisation of the word began around 1250 to clarify the single letter as constituting a full word: writers and copyists began to use a capital I because the lower-case letter was hard to read, and sometimes mistaken for part of the previous or succeeding word."

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

If it is a proto-Germanic origin, what else could have been the reasons as such to emphasize the first person singular, while a special stress is given to the first person singular to be small letters in German (as though nouns are capitalized)? An example as I just got:

"..., über Deine Mail zum Christfest freue ich mich sehr. Ich bin gerne und immer Dein...."

It seems the stress in first person singular pronoun in English rather an accident (but conventionalized) than having an explainable etymological origin. Is there any linguistic prescription in modern English? —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:38, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the better question why capitalization of "I" didn't stop when it stopped for other nouns? English used to capitalize all nouns. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronouns are not "nouns" in the relevant sense, anyway: German doesn't capitalize pronouns except for Sie (formal 2nd. person) and related forms. AnonMoos (talk) 05:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Informal 2nd person pronouns get capitalized as well, occasionally. See above with "Dein". Rimush (talk) 15:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Then, only the pronouns of '2nd. person' are capitalized in German, than I thought as if they were common to all pronouns other than in the cases of ambiguities where a pronoun stress marker is necessary (like, plural ‘sie’ versus formal ‘Sie’). —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 17:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

A common folk etymology-ish thing is that the capitalization of "I" represents the individualist/navel-gazing nature of English speakers (i.e., we think we're so important we capitalize "I", whereas Spanish speakers capitalize formal "You", French speakers capitalize no pronouns, etc.). This is fanciful and groundless, so you shouldn't believe it...but people do try to say it from time to time. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:47, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

In blackletter script, "i" was just a single-minim unit, and so not very distinctive on the page. Of course, the letter "i" was sometimes swashed to "j" at the beginning of a word ("I" and "J" were not really distinguished until the 17th century, and were not always considered fully separate letters of the alphabet until the 19th century). AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I once asked a teacher why the I was capitalized. She explained to me that it was simply a carry-over from the German Ich, which satisfied my curiosity (apparently I never thought to ask why Ich would always be capitalized) and I lived happily ever after... until the second week of German class a decade later. Matt Deres (talk) 02:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I would guess that I is capitolized simply in order to make it apparent that the use of the single letter is intentional. since a is not a pronoun, that would seem to me to explain the reason why it's treated differently. ...and, now that I read the rest of this, I see that Wavelength stated something similar, above.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 03:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

So is there any chance that "I" will stop being capitalized (as modern typography/handwriting makes it distinct enough for the capitalization not to be required), or will a lack of capitalization always be stigmatized (as wholly uneducated or childish, say) enough for the rule to continue perpetually? 76.204.127.175 (talk) 19:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

This is the reference desk, not the prognostication desk, so I don't think anyone here can answer that question. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

December 26

Aussie English

I was watching a documentary on Australia and came a cross a word I didn't understand. Near the end of the show, an angry shopkeeper is griping about the overwhelming number of bullfrogs that have invaded and he says that "They're in the lift and the lorry and all around the..." I hesitate to even try to guess how to spell it... "malunga-gulachuck?" "Milungagullashuk?" I more or less assumed it was a made-up word poking fun at what sounds to North American ears to be quaint or silly sounding placenames, but I'm curious as to whether it might be a legitimate place or thing. Any help? Matt Deres (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

As I recall, just nonsense words. I found the episode extra funny because there is a "mistake" about Australia every minute; e.g the word "lorry" is little used. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

作 and 做

What exactly is the distinction between the chinese characters 作 and 做? I looked them both up and they seem to have the same pronounciation (zuò) and both mean to do or to make. Can they pretty much be used interchangably? Yakeyglee (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

They are not interchangeable. 作, when used in practice, means rather negative things like cheat, make mischief, and show off. 做 often means rather positive things like make love, accomplish, and dream. Of course, there are many uses that are not strictly negative or positive, but the general negative/positive feeling still remains connected. -- kainaw™ 03:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

There are also cases in which one or the other is used in a compound word (for example, 工作、作文、etc.) and can't be replaced with the other. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

In all of the examples I gave, they are compound words - which is normal Chinese. Single-character words are not very common. It screams "foreigner" when using single-character words, such as "green" (lu) instead of the proper "green color" (luse). -- kainaw™ 04:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Comma use

Hi folks,

I've been noticing recently, in various places (not just on Wikipedia), that some people seem to be using (or not using) commas in sentence lists differently then how I've always been taught. For example, I've been seeing:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2 and item 3.

(note that item 2 and item 3 are not directly related, so purposely excluding a comma between them would not be appropriate) I've always been taught that that it's more correct to do:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2, and item 3.

This is probably slightly pedantic on my part, but... like I said, I've been noticing it quite often recently for some reason. Am I off base here, somehow? Thanks.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

The commas in lists were originally a shorthand way of saying "and", so by including that last comma in the second example you're basically saying "and and". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Really?!? I've honestly never heard that before... and, I do have a Websters Quick Reference here that says to use a comma. Is this something new (the Websters that I have is a couple decades old... and my Grammar School education is as well, for that matter).
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

You should read serial comma for a complete overview of this question, frequently debated. --Lgriot (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Ahh.... thanks!
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yet another WP:ENGVAR issue, I see... *sigh*
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's something old. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Now that I know what to look for, I see: MOS:SERIAL, which covers this issue nicely. Thanks guys.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Whichever option you choose, may I just say that I would have put a comma between "items" and "including". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

And I would have put a question mark at the end of that question, Jack. :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, really? It's not a question in my books, so no question mark is required.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Anything that starts with 'may I just say that...' sounds very much (grammatically) like a question to me, though. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 13:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

In form, it appears to be a question. But I was not asking anyone's permission to say/write anything, I was merely using a polite form of expression. "May I say that ...", "may I add that ...", "might I suggest that ..." are all ways of really saying "I am now going to say/add/suggest that ...". Other sentences that look like questions but are not include "Would you please shut up" (that's a command) and "Would you excuse me" (that's an entreaty). Weird stuff, this English. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

meaning of word

I want to know the meaning of the word "zarandela" "a la zarandela..." It is mentioned on a Puertorican christmas carol. Thanks Annie Maldonado San Juan, PR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.215.122 (talk) 14:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't find a translation, but it seems to be the name of a song, and zarandear means "to shake", if that makes any sense in the context of the carol. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I've also been unable to translate it. I don't speak the language, but it seems to be the name or nickname of a person. Matt Deres (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't speak the language either, but I think it may be pointed out that it sounds strikingly similar to 'Cinderella'. Maybe this is stating the obvious, and I apologize for that, but if it really is a name, as Matt says, this may be relevant. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Anything's possible, but "Cinderella" got her name from cleaning the cinders out of the family stove or chimney or something. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

"Cinderella" in Spanish is rendered as Cenicienta, which literally means "ashen" or "ash-gray". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't find "zarandela" in the Spanish wikipedia either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I think Bugs was on the right track, with a word deriving from zarandear -to shake. I wonder if the reference in what the OP describes as a Christmas carol is to "shepherds quake at the sight". And the usual disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish. Bielle (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Could be related. The word for shepherd is pastor, which makes it obvious why a church minister is often called by that title. Zarandela would seem to be a feminine word, so it's hard to tell. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm asking at the Spanish wikipedia. We'll see (1) if my Spanish is comprehensible to them; and (2) if they can provide an explanation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's their explanation ...

Es complicado. «Zarandelo» es un dialectalismo que significa trompo que baila zarandeado; en esa canción, además, está usado metafóricamente, así que no es fácil la adaptación.

La expresión "a la zarandela" aparece en varias canciones (entre ellas, alguna de navidad y alguna de fiesta, puede leerla aquí). Se refiere a una mujer, que supuestamente gusta a quien habla y que tiene un carácter alegre, etc.

... and my attempt at a translation:

It is complicated. "Zarandelo" is a dialectism which signifies spinning top which dances shaken; in that song, moreover, it is used metaphorically, in a way that is not easily adapted [into other languages].

The expression "a la zarandela" appears in various songs (among them, some of Christmas and some of holidays, you can read it here). It refers to a woman, who supposedly is pleasing to who is speaking and who has a lively character, etc.

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

And it's risky to make assumptions, so I just wonder if this word is connected with the Italian lively dance called the Tarantella. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope. The Spanish for tarantella is tarantela. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

It could just be a derivation of zarandearse (cf Bielle's answer), which in regional use relates to making swinging movements of the body parts. Pallida  Mors 23:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Doesn't really make sense in context: "A la zarandela de mi corazon." Could it be related to zarandar - , 4th meaning in the DRAE - Separar de lo común lo especial y más precioso (Separate the special and most valuable from the ordinary)?. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 00:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Hum... I really don't know what to say. I have the impression that the derivation is zarandear->zarandelo (top [movement])->zarandela. The de mi corazón bit is basically my beloved.... I really hope that some Boricua fellow wikipedian shed some insight, though. :) Pallida  Mors 02:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

word for brand name that becomes generic name

Is there a word that describes a brand name that becomes the generic term for some product? Examples include kleenex, q-tip, and xerox. I thought of eponym, but that is not quite right.--Eriastrum (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's a single word, but genericized trademark should be of interest. - Nunh-huh 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Nunh-huh, that looks like the right term (although I was hoping for something snappier!)--Eriastrum (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

The article on genericized trademark uses the term genericide. This word seems to "wrong" to me, because normally XXXicide means killing XXX, whereas genericide is "killing" the brand and "creating" a generic term. The word isn't in the Shorter Oxford yet, but googling it :-) finds about 213,000 results. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Genericide is also the term that is used on Language Log sometimes (e.g., [2]). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:03, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at trademark erosion[3].Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 27 December

2009 (UTC)

The collared generic terms for products usually are blend, eponym, and compound (Compound linguistics). However, they are not easy to define if there aren’t reliable background information. That is, there may be some information to sound like ‘blend’ now and different information to sound you like ‘eponym’ or ‘compound’ in other times. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

China

Is china named after China or vice-versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc iindyysgvxc (talk • contribs) 21:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

As you would expect from the pages you've linked to, "china" on the table acquired its name from the country: that is, "china" is a shortened form of "Chinese porcelain". As the first page you linked states. "Porcelain can informally be referred to as "china" in some English-speaking countries, as China was the birth place of porcelain making." - Nunh-huh 22:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Etymology section in the article on China has a section on the etymology of the English word for the country, as well as for the porcelain. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

December 27

Mr. Bishi

Who is Mr. Bishi? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Google search here gives 21,900 hits. Without context, we can't really help more than that. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 15:42, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

What about Mitsubishi? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 15:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

That had occurred to me, but, as I say, without any context, all I could do was search on google for the exact term you were asking about. Do you have any context? Is it something about the Japanese car manufacturer Mitsubishi? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 16:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Is the name “Mitsubishi” used for companies other than the Japanese car manufacturer Mitsubishi Motors? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is. In actual fact, 'Mitsubishi' is a family name, and a A lot of smaller and lesser known companies, shops, and so on, could easily have this name. Bear in mind, though, that normally such companies, etc., would be called 'Mitsubishi' + '[line of business]' (e.g. [EDIT] a theoretical Mitsubishi Liquor Store), just as Mitsubishi Motors do. Bear in mind, also, that Mitsubishi Motors is just part of a larger corporation that deals in all sorts of things. See this page for a list. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Mitsubishi is not a family name. For details, see Mitsubishi. --Sushiya (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, I was misinformed in that respect, but what I said about Mitsubishi Motors being part of a larger group of companies in the same corporation is true, and the name 'Mitsubishi [something]' is used in many of them. (To be honest, I believed the logo was formed after the name, rather than the other way round). --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 04:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting; I had heard that the logo was based on the props of the old Mitsubishi Zero. I wonder if the explanation given in our reference (i.e. the Mitsubishi company website) for that has done a bit of history re-writing to remove the association with war. Matt Deres (talk) 06:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, the story I'd been given is obviously incorrect as the logo predates WW2; there do seem to be sources indicating it's based on a ship's propeller, though. Matt Deres (talk) 06:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Hm, regarding the OP's question: could it have anything to do with how American otaku use the word bishy (as in, an adjunctive form of bishonen, meaning something beautiful in the anime sense)? TomorrowTime (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Zodi Ikhia

I created the Zodi Ikhia article. However, I can't really dechiffer what is family name and what isn't. Different references give different result, some notable references state 'Ikhia' as the family name. --Soman (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

You may want to post this in Talk:Tuareg, if you cannot get any reply here. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Some cultural groups simply don't have anything that very closely corresponds to a surname in the western sense, despite sometimes having long multi-part names. For instance, look at Arabic name; sometimes an element from a complex Arabic name gets pulled in to serve as a surname in western contexts somewhat arbitrarily, regardless of whether there's any real equivalence in function. So the element of Saddam Hussein's full original name which probably most closely corresponds to a western surname is actually "al-Tikriti", the element of Yasser Arafat's full original name which probably most closely corresponds to a western surname is actually "al-Qudwa" (or "al-Kidwa"), etc. etc. It can be complicated. AnonMoos (talk) 02:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The confusing thing is that the French National Assembly website show 3 different ways of writing his name (on the same page); Ikhia Aboubekr ZODI / ZODI IKHIA (Aboubekr) / Aboubekr (ou Aboubacar) Ikhia Zodi. However, its seems that most English Google Books hits use 'Zodi Ikhia'. --Soman (talk) 09:53, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Pondicherry politician

I bit similar to the query posted above; I also created the article Deiva Zivarattinam. However, I can't find any material for the period 1954-1975. The translitteration Deiva Zivarattinam is typically French, probably different translitterations were used after integration with India. Can any material, with a different translitteration, be found on Google? How to write the name in Tamil? --Soman (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by “The translitteration Deiva Zivarattinam is typically French, probably different translitterations were used after integration with India”? This link has Tamil transliteration. You may want to check the correctness of the transliteration in “Talk:Tamil script”. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the name would have been given as 'D. Sivaratnam' in English style transliteration, but I couldn't find anything on him on google. --Soman (talk) 17:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Most likely the Tamil is சிவரத்தினம், a scientific transliteration would be Civarattiṉam. The Z in Zivarattinam seems quite odd, I wouldn't say it's typically French either. And if the person used to write his name that way before 1954, there is no reason why he should have changed that after Pondicherry became a part of India. Indeed, even today there are many Pondicherryans who write their names in a French fashion. --BishkekRocks (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

December 28

Spanish and/or Portuguese ghost question

I'm listening to a Spanish-based Portuguese course, in which the phrase "El fantasma de servicio" / "O fantasma de serviço" appears. Context: A husband and wife are sleeping. The wife is awakened by a noise, which the husband dismisses as Antonio snoring, while the wife thinks it sounds like moaning and chains being dragged along the floor. The husband replies: ¿Entonces que quieres que sea? ¿El fantasma de servicio? / Então o que é que queres que seja? O fantasma de serviço?

What is a fantasma de servicio? I know of course that servicio can mean (public) toilet, but in spite of Moaning Myrtle, that doesn't really make sense in context. Googling the Spanish version only gets two hits, which are of little help. Googling the Portuguese version gets three hits, two of which may suggest a "resident ghost" (nosso fantasma de serviço de Sta Comba Dão, fantasma de serviço no laboratório). Anyone able to shed more light on this? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 00:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

In (Spain-ish) Spanish, the expression "de turno" is used to mean approximately "on call" or "on duty," with the connotation that the person is ill-prepared to do the job s/he might be called up to do. I don't know why, but this strikes me as being something similar – the "ghost on duty" or whatever. This would be contextual if the wife in the story often believes in ghosts or spirits, and the husband routinely dismisses her concerns – he's saying that this is "just another ghost." Without knowing more about the story, I can't tell if I am off base or not. — æk^Talk 04:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. There isn't much more to the story; the book+audio is made up of small episodes. The wife answers that she doesn't believe in ghosts, but that one never knows, and the husband persists in telling her to go to sleep. These google searches [4] [5] [6] suggest you're right. Note that the last one mostly gets South-American hits. It appears that farmacia de guardia is the preferred term in Spain (for pharmacies). Usually, in the Spanish translation, the book writes the literal meaning of a word in parentheses after the translation, so I would have expected ¿Entonces que quieres que sea? ¿El fantasma de turno (servicio)?. But they may have neglected doing so, perhaps because the meaning would be obvious to a Spanish speaker. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 09:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Stottlemyre

Our Stottlemyre article says that it means "stuttering farmer", which given the number of people who are both farmers and stutterers has me wondering how it got to be such a common name, or "enlightened farmer". How did the "enlightened" bit creep in there? Was this some sort of old wives tale which claimed that people who stuttered were more intelligent than other non-stuttering people? Dismas|^(talk) 06:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think those are folk mythologies and fairytales. People who stutter have unusual obstructions in the pulmonic egressive airstream mechanism for correct pronunciations. So they have barriers in communication; they drop words that they cannot articulate and substitute words that they can articulate. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 16:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that the etymology in our article Stottlemyre is doubtful. The article says that the name is an americanized form of the German name Stadelmeyer and claims that the first element of that name is derived from the German dialect verb stotteln. In American English, the German word Stadel sounds like an americanized pronounciation of the verb root stottel-, but in German those two sound quite distinct. As a (non-native) speaker of German, it is not at all plausible to me that a German name Stadelmeyer could be derived from the word stotteln. Much more probable is a derivation from the word de:Stadel, which is a word meaning Scheune or "shed" (as in "toolshed"), and which is also the name of several villages in German-speaking countries. The original meaning of the word Meyer (or Meier) was something like "overseer" in English. (If you can read German, see de:Meier.) The Meyer was the person that a noble landowner employed to run an estate. Sometimes, the estate was leased to the Meyer, who would pay the landowner a yearly rent and keep a portion of the farm's earnings for himself. Meyer can also mean free farmer (as opposed to a serf). Often, villages in German-speaking countries take the name of the feudal estate on which they stood (or the estates took the name of the village that they controlled). To me, it seems most likely that Stadelmeyer means "the overseer of the Stadel estate" or perhaps "the free farmer of Stadel" (whose other residents might have been serfs). Marco polo (talk) 19:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, Stadel also refers to a frame for drying hay, or a "hay rack", in some southern dialects of German. So a (free) farmer might have acquired the name Stadelmeyer if he were known for his hay production. Marco polo (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Mihkaw, you seem to be implying that stuttering involves physical or physiological obstructions, but the article I linked to explicitly denies that. --ColinFine (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I do not know. I have not read the details in depth, though I am curious sometimes about those who have capacities for good tones, capacities in animation for speech guises, and constrains in speech production. I agree that it is psychological (not physical) if people stutter occasionally who otherwise do not stutter. At the same time, I think, if there aren’t any involuntary obstructions in the egressive airstream mechanism for correct pronunciations, then there souldn’t be any speech problems. On the other matters of the OP, I do not have any comment. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, my question wasn't about the reason why a person stutters. For that, I would have gone to the science desk. It seems that our article is entirely wrong given the more logical conjecture of Marco polo. It would be good if we had a reliable source though. Dismas|^(talk) 02:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

This reference desk is useful as wel if varieties of passive tones are captured and treated nicely with formal references. So I think, some edits with arguments (without references) are also good things. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I found this genealogical web page for the German family and sent an e-mail to the proprietor asking if he has any references for the meaning of the family name. I will let you know if I learn anything. Marco polo (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking a little more closely at the links on Uwe Stadelmaier's web site, I see that he provides copies of a reliable source with a definition of the family's name. My conjectures were incorrect. It turns out that a Stadelmeier was a person who managed the warehouse of a wholesale merchant. (So, unlike the usual agricultural Meyer, who manages an agrarian estate, this was a commercial Meyer.) Here is the link to the page where the name is defined (in German). You will see that a Stadelmeier manages a Stadelhof, which is defined under the name Stadelhofer on the same page. This is page 650 of Volume 2 of the Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Deutschen Familiennamen by Prof. Josef Karlmann Brechenmacher, published by C.A. Starke Verlag, Limburg an der Lahn, 1963, according to these links: [7] [8]. So, a reliable source is better than a conjecture. Marco polo (talk) 03:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Correcting errors

May i get your help in correcting any errors in the following 10 sentences:

1. By reading this letter, i hope that you will be convinced.
2. Although a complete failure financially, I enjoyed taking part in our senior play.
3. After helping the girl onto the train, we began to chat.
4. After leaving Massawa, our trip took us through the northern coast of the Red Sea.
5. In order to be understood, proper artiiculation and pronounction are necessary.
6. I was told that I could get both a degree in designing and become a teacher.
7. She told me of her past and that she had recently come to the city because of her need for work.
8. When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to either sleep in the car or a broken down bed.
9. A song was written about this river that is still popular.
10. I have often heard said that experience is the best teacher.

txs for ur help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 14:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

No it is not a home work. I am teaching my self English by acquiring different materials of different former college students. Hence, i am asking you, because I want to prove what i worked were correct.

Here are some hints, rather than actual corrections. In 1, 2, and 9, the subject of the first clause isn't the same as the subject of the second clause. (Who reads the letter? What was a financial failure? What is still popular?) 3 is similar - as it stands, it means that the people (plural) who helped the girl onto the train chatted with each other, which _might_ be what's intended; but it's wrong if you want to say that the person (single) who helped the girl onto the train chatted to her. In 4, an unidiomatic (not wrong, just not what a native speaker would say) word has been chosen. 5 has two words that are not spelled correctly, but is otherwise OK. In 6, one word should be in a different place. 7 is OK as it stands. 8 and 10 are missing a word ("in" for 8 and "it" for 10). Tevildo (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

8 also has a split infinitive. Whether or not this should be corrected is a debatable point, although your teacher will probably expect you to do it. :) Tevildo (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The biggest problem with 8 is not the split infinitive but the lack of parallel structure between what follows "either" and what follows "or". You can correct both that problem and the split infinitive in one go by moving "either" to another position; you don't actually have to add any words at all. 4 has a similar problem to 1, 2, and 9: who's leaving Massawa? In 5 (in addition to the misspelled words), who is being understood? 7 might be considered to have problems with parallel structure too, although technically it works: "She told me (a) of her past and (b) that she had recently come to the city because of her need for work", though this might be considered a type of syllepsis. +Angr 16:21, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't really think there's a failure of coordination in 8 - "I have to either [either to?] sleep in the car or [sleep in] a broken-down bed". Admittedly, moving "either" after "in" removes the need for explicitly including any part of the verb. 4, I think that "After the trip left Massawa" would be OK - replacement of "trip" with either "route" or "party" would make the coordination impeccable, and not change the meaning of the sentence. There's always a difference between what's _wrong_ and what's _imperfect_ in this sort of exercise, although there's probably only one "right answer". Tevildo (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Prescriptively at least, in an "either X or Y" construction, the Y should make sense as a continuation of the sentence before the either. In other words, if you cross out "either X or", the sentence should still be grammatical. If you do that with sentence 8, you get "When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to either sleep in the car or a broken down bed", and *"I have to a broken down bed" isn't grammatical. +Angr 20:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Actual homework or not, it would be helpful if you'd provide us what you've worked out. For example, there are spelling and capitalization errors throughout the list, but perhaps you are only concerned with grammar; although "in order to be understood, proper spelling and capitalization are necessary." --LarryMac | Talk 17:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Or, here are few other options:

In 1, the sentence needs a subject that can correspond the second clause, like--In order to be understood a speech, proper articulation and pronunciation are necessary.

In 6, the correlative conjunction lacks parallelism; needs a parallel NP, like--I was told that I could get both a degree in designing and a position to become a teacher.

The 8 have options on split infinitive, like--When we go to the lake on weekends, I have to sleep either in the car or in a broken down bed.

The 10 is vague in terms of its subordination. An options would be--I have often heard the saying that 'experience is the best teacher'. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid, Mihkaw, that your English fails you. "I have often heard saying that 'experience is the best teacher'" makes no sense in English at all. Perhaps the saying that or people saying (both a fair distance from the original). "A speech to be understood," while perhaps correct (it's not my area of expertise) sounds rather odd to a native speaker. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you are on the right track. It has to turn at least in the form like--I have often heard the saying of people that 'experience is the best teacher'. How does this sound to you? —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 21:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

As usual in English, there are several slightly different ways of saying this, each with subtly different shades of meaning. Your latest suggestion however, Mihkaw napéw, is not one that any native English speaker is likely to use (except in Science Fiction/Fantasy, because if it were assumed to be correctly complying with grammatical rules/idioms and not merely mistaken, it would imply that someone other than 'people' could have 'sayings', and even that the speaker is not him/her/itself a 'person'). Acceptable alternatives include (but are not limited to):

a/ I have often heard that 'experience . . .' (deliberately unspecific as to where the speaker has heard/read the quotation, so perhaps they're exaggerating);

b/ I have often heard the saying 'experience . . .' (here 'saying' is a noun with a similar meaning to 'proverb');

c/ I have often heard people saying 'experience . . .' (here 'saying' is a verb in (I think) the present continuous tense, and would imply the quotation is so long that the speaker often hears only part of it being said);

d/ I have often heard people say 'experience . . .' (with the verb 'say' in the present simple tense; a straightforward statement with no obvious implied extra meanings)

e/ I have often heard it said that 'experience . . .' (here the 'it' is the Dummy pronoun common in English, and the sentence overall combines the unspecificy of a/ with the straightforwardness of d/, and is also closest to the OP's original wording. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The sentences seem all right, but they are missing few elements. What I can say is this: a) is correct; in b), the word ‘saying’ is a verbal (so if it modifies a proverb, the phrase becomes AdjP); c) needs a new subject and coordination if the word ‘saying’ is a verb; d) and e) have similar problems. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 00:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Mihkaw, as a different native speaker of English to the one you are correcting, I tell you that b, c, d and e are good English. In b), the word 'saying' is a noun. The noun 'saying' means 'proverb': it does not modify a proverb. The word 'saying' can also be a form of the verb 'to say', as it is in c). However, it is the noun that is used in b). I would perhaps punctuate the examples slightly differently than the above user, but that largely comes down to taste. 86.176.48.114 (talk) 01:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I myself would in practice probably punctuate those sentences a little differently, but I was trying to stay close to the OP's original example and to minimise punctuation so as to emphasise the grammatical aspects, rather than getting hung up on house/personal style variations. Thanks for the support, 86. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Not really, but I do not have any further comment on this. OK, Sir. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Nos 2,3,4,5 are examples of sentences that some people count as 'wrong', especially in formal contexts, but many native English speakers would say. 1. is similar, but sounds a little bit more awkward to me, perhaps because by its nature it must be written rather than spoken. --ColinFine (talk) 00:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Direct and Indirect speech

I need to turn the following paragraph from indirect speech to direct speech. ( He told me that he liked to know what everybody else knew and that, besides, he wanted to learn Latin. I replied that I could not think why anybody should learn Latin. He asked me if I didn't know that Latin was part of the education of a gentleman.)

I also need to turn the the following direct speech to turn into indirect speech. ( "Did you come by train?" said Mary. "No, I came by car," said John. "But how is it you are not at school?" The holidays have not begun yet," said she. Father wanted me at home," Said he. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 14:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.

No it is not a home work. I am teaching my self English by acquiring different materials of different former college students. Hence, i am asking you, because I want to prove what i worked were correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.103.10 (talk) 15:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, tell us what you worked out. Hint: The answer to the first one should read something like: He said, "xxxxx". I replied, "xxxx". He then asked me, "xxxxx".--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you see the example in Direct speech in case you have a problem with the concepts. --Lgriot (talk) 00:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Artifacted or artifaced?

When I speak about digital image degradation due to image compression artifacts, is it acceptable to say something like this: "The artifacted photo is so bad, I don't want to print it." Would I use artifaced? --70.167.58.6 (talk) 23:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It may not have found its way into the dictionaries, but this and this scientific papers use it, and this 1981 book uses it in the title (albeit meaning "artificial" rather than "containing artifacts"). It's _defensible_ rather than correct, at the moment, but I can't think of an obvious one-word alternative. "Artifact-laden", if you don't want to be linguistically controversial? Tevildo (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Ooops, sorry. Those references are for "artifacted". "Artifaced" has nothing equivalent to support it. Tevildo (talk) 23:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

"Artifaced" is not a good Classical-derived word, because it doesn't really follow the conventional patterns of correspondences involved in adapting Latin forms into English, and it suggests a direct and immediate connection with the word "face" which doesn't exist. If you want a shortened version of "artifacted" which somewhat follows the rules, it would be actually "artified" (though of course that isn't a real word either)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Mind you, those conventional patterns haven't stopped people from making up their own rules about some words, such as 'appendix' dropping the -ix when it becomes, in some countries, 'appendectomy' (rather than 'appendicectomy'). 'Index', on the other hand, always retains the ending in 'indices' or 'indexes'; it's never indes). I'd better stop now; I'm liable to develop some complices.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 01:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I think classical purists might object to "Appendectomy" more on the basis of it being a mixed Latin-Greek word, rather than to the haplology (which is also seen in "Gynocracy" for "Gynecocracy" etc.) AnonMoos (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"Artificed" might work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Part of the trouble is the origin of "artifact", which is "artis + factum", "art + made", the later from "facere", "to make". "Artifice" is also a noun. There's apparently no "official" verb form of these words, although "artificed" sounds more like a proper verb than "artifacted" does. "Fact", by itself, also comes from "facere", and similarly lacks a verb form. However, there is the noun "facture", "a making", with the verb form "manufacture" (to make by hand). That suggests "artifacture" (to make by art or skill), although I don't think that's a word either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In Latin, "facto, factare, factavi, factatus" could theoretically be an iterative or frequentative type of verb -- though the actually-occurring frequentative of facere is "factito, factitare, factitavi, factitatus"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

On this general topic, the term "counterfeit" came up at the humanities desk.[9] The "feit" part comes from "facere" via the French "faire", which means "to make". Side note: The Spanish equivalent is "hacer", as the soft "f" evolved into an even softer, and eventually silent, "h". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

December 29

Klingon

What's a good website where I can learn Klingon for free? --75.50.52.102 (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It's possible wikipedia has an article on the subject, but I simply went to google and entered [klingon language] and this website[10] was the first one on the list. It seems to have at least some basics. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Because Klingon (Tlh'ingan Hol) is a conlang, it's actually under copyright, unlike most languages, which are nobody's property. For this reason, one can't simply write one's own Klingon Language Course. It's a bit of an unusual situation. All natural languages, and most other conlangs are, for want of a better word, open-source. There aren't restrictions on teaching and learning, for the most part. Some natural languages (such as Australian aboriginal languages and other indigenous languages of the world) do have some restrictions due to understandings of cultural possession and connections to spirituality. Steewi (talk) 03:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see a RS ref that it's actually under copyright. AFAIK, one can't copyright a language or a script. kwami (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Our own article (not a reliable source, presumably, but a start) says "Paramount Pictures owns a copyright to the official dictionary and other canonical descriptions of the language. No challenge has been brought to court." I assume this would mean you can't go around publishing your own dictionaries and textbooks. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Okrent, Arika (2009). In the Land of Invented Languages. Spiegel & Grau. ISBN 978-0-385-52788-0. Page 228:

"There is one invented language that is essentially owned by a private company, though the terms of ownership have not been tested in court: Klingon is protected by a trademark held by Paramount Pictures."

--ColinFine (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but trademark protection is completely different from copyright protection. +Angr 11:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The term "Klingon" would be the trademark. The language itself would be copyrighted. Obviously, a language is not a trademark. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Are there any other copyrighted conlangs? --84.62.197.235 (talk) 17:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

IANAL, but any conlang which has been invented in the past hundred years or so and which hasn't been explicitly released to the public domain is necessarily copyrighted. The author might not complain about your use of the language (they'd probably be rather happy about it), but it's still copyrighted. Marnanel (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I challenge that. Languages are not copyrightable. Companies can purport to hold a copyright on them, which Paramount is currently purporting. The copyright office in the US will just register the copyright on their dictionary without comment. The dictionary itself is copyrightable but facts are not; in this case the words of the fake language are the facts. As stated above, this fake copyright has not been tested in court. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) Quoting further from Okrent (op. cit., p. 227): "Brown claimed he owned the rights to the vocabulary of Loglan. Did he? Brown did have copyrights on his books, incluiding the dictionary. But copyright does not extend to each individual word in a copyrighted work ... Would it have been possible for him to copyright each Loglan word separately? Perhaps, but he didn't ... Can the rules of a languae be owned? Probably not ... There is, however, some blur in this area within the murky world of software patents, so given the right lawyer and the right judge, who knows?" --ColinFine (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I take your point, but what does "Would it have been possible for him to copyright each Loglan word separately? Perhaps, but he didn't" mean? It's not as though copyrighting something involves a deliberate action. You have copyright in your creation from the moment it exists in tangible form. Marnanel (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

To give a possible answer to the question about conlangs with lawyers and money behind them, I think the most obvious parallel is with Tolkien's conlangs. I'd like to see what would happen if someone published a new creative work which had sections written in the Arda languages but leaned on no other part of the Tolkien corpus. Marnanel (talk) 18:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation assistance, please

What does "le desordre c'est moi" mean? I thought Babelfish would tell me but I don't really understand the result. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 13:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a play on the famous phrase "L'état c'est moi" (Louis XIV of France#Quotes)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

And it means: "Chaos is me" or "I am chaos". Also, it's spelled "désordre". --Xuxl (talk) 15:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, both those translations might be considered inadequate to fully render the connotative force of the original French construction (and "chaos is me" is kind of distractingly similar to "woe is me"); that's why "L'état, c'est moi" is often left untranslated in English-language works... AnonMoos (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Translate "gods" into Chinese please.

The context:

"Thank you, sir. God bless you." "Gods have nothing to do with this. You're welcome."

God bless you would be: 上帝保佑你. In that, 上帝 is used as "god", pronounced "shangdi". -- kainaw™ 16:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but what about the question? Thanks. 67.243.1.21 (talk) 18:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

What question? It asked to translate "gods" into Chinese within a specific context. In that context, the translation is 上帝. -- kainaw™ 20:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The full translation might be something along the lines of 上帝不管这个 or 这和上帝没有关系, but without more context (specifically, what "this" is), it's hard to say. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't find that to be a good translation as the second speaker does not appear to subscribe to the monotheism of the first speaker. 67.243.1.21 (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

"Automatic Updates is turned off."

My Microsoft Winsows computer often tells me this. Shouldn't it be "Automatic updates are turned off"? You might say that "Automatic Updates" is a singluar piece of software, but automatic updates seems more like a verb or process that would happen more than once, and hence should have a plural. 84.13.181.49 (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's one of two possibilities. It's either that "Automatic updates" is, as you say, the name of a specific feature or piece of software, or it's another example of Microsoft software being illogical because the programmers didn't think it through. Why, for example, must you press the "start" button to turn the computer off? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I loathe Windows as much as any other Mac user, but I don't have a problem with that last one. You press 'start' to start the process of turning the thing off. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I wish everyone didn't blame the programmers for the shortcomings of the UI designers. Marnanel (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's another example of a technical writer forgetting a cardinal rule: "Keep your audience in mind". I have to enter my email address and password to access my emails. On that page, there's a separate box for each of these 2 bits of information. Underneath is the legend: Please note that email address and password is case sensitive.

To normal humans, they're two things, so the verb can only be "are". But obviously to a programmer, they're part of the same overall piece of data, because case sensitivity will apply either to both (sub-)pieces of information or to neither.

Another one that used to have me tearing my hair out every time I saw the ad on TV: "Whether you're at home or out on the job, your local Telstra shop are here to help you". The rationale seemed to be that there were many physical shops, in many different locations, and they were all there to help their local communities, so it was a plural thing. But to refer to them collectively as "your local Telstra shop" and still use the plural verb - I can only assume the ad was written by someone who was not a native speaker of English. Or maybe it was a cunning ploy to get the audience's attention. It worked. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"But obviously to a programmer, they're part of the same overall piece of data," --LarryMac | Talk 20:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, what else could explain someone writing "A and B is ..." rather than "A and B are ..."? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Off the top of my head I can think of a) non-native English speaking programmers and b) incorrect design. But to state "obviously" how a programmer thinks is just wrong. As a programmer-American who has written on or two log in routines, I can't imagine how anybody would write a functional system that could treat user name and password as a single data element. --LarryMac | Talk 20:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In that case, I withdraw my outrageous slur against programmers. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I can easily imagine someone half-remembering a teacher telling them that "is" follows a singular noun, and saying to themselves, "well, 'password' is a singular noun..." Marnanel (talk) 20:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

To answer the OP's question, "Automatic Updates" is indeed the name of the service, and so it's technically correct to say "Automatic Updates is disabled" (cf "The Merry Wives of Windsor is not one of Shakespeare's greatest plays", although italics would probably be used in that case). I can also see another reason - in disabling Automatic Updates, you've disabled automatic updating for _Windows_, but not for any other application. Someone might read "Automatic updates are disabled" as implying that _all_ automatic updates are disabled, which isn't the case. Of course, Microsoft's choice of name for the service is open to criticism for the reasons mentioned above, but there's little anyone can do about that. Tevildo (talk) 20:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

@JackOfOz: it is common in British English to refer to a collective such as a government, a committee, or a shop with a singular or plural verb, depending on whether it is being regarded in context as an entity or a bunch of people. I know that this is not customary in the US, but I thought Australian agreed with British here - perhaps I'm wrong. Certainly to me, 'your local Telstra shop are there to help you' is unexceptionable. Pinker, discussing a text from a particular subject in The Language Instinct, notes that "My bank are awful" is grammatical in British English, and I concur. --ColinFine (talk) 21:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur. Hence, the cabinet is meeting today but the cabinet are divided. (Of course, the latter should be impossible.) Here, "Automatic Updates is" is the other side of a coin of common usage - the other being "Norwich City are". On a side note, "Red Hot Chili Peppers"- singular, or plural? - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand the above, but this is a different case. The name of each shop was "Telstra Shop". They were all operated by Telstra. There were many of them, in different locations. Each one was, to its local community, the "local Telstra Shop". Each local Telstra Shop serviced one and only one local community. One could think of the Telstra Shop as a single nation-wide organisation (is) or as many different outlets (are), but when it comes to talking about local Telstra Shops, that's different. So, the options were:

• "The Telstra Shop is/are here to help you", or
• "Your local Telstra Shop is here to help you", or
• "Your local Telstra Shops are here to help you".

They were like local branches of a bank; one might say "The bank is .." or "The bank are ...", depending on the context, but one would never say "Your local branch of XYZ Bank are always at your service". Would one? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I probably wouldn't, but I might say "Your local branch of XYZ Bank are always at your service" if I had a point to make about the staff (i.e. a plural by implication). I think, in reality, that it's all down to choice, context etc. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"The local HSBC have contributed £1000 to the fund". That looks OK to me (BrE). Not "The local HSBC branch", though. Tevildo (talk) 22:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The names Ivan vs. Ioanno in Russian

I saw the following on the back of a car the other day:

БОГ ЕСТь ЛЮБОВь -- ИОАННО 4:8

In Russian, are the names Ivan and Ioanno considered two different names? Woogee (talk) 22:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)