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NickOrnstein

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning NickOrnstein

User requesting enforcement

David in DC (talk) 03:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

NickOrnstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Enforcement of discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [1] I delete citation to "source" which fails WP:RS and is explicitly prohibited by WOP WikiProject Notability and sourcing guidance.
2. [2] I'm reverted, with "Other must agree" edit summary
3. [3] The next day, given that this is info about a living person, I try again, with explanatory edit summary: "Reply to edit summary in reversion. Others do agree. It's explicit in WOP WikiProject Notability and Sourcing Guidance. If you wish to generate a new consensus, please start that process on the WikiProject talk page. Please don't ignore."
4. [4] I add reliable sources for Jan Goosenaerts, taken directly from subject's page. I leave the other two items on the list without sources. I resolve, to myself, to look for sources for them Not as easy to find, since they have no articles.
5. [5] I discover one Jan G. source is a dead link, and mark it so, indicating I'll do the same on the JG article after I review the other links.
6. [6] I mark deadlink on JG page
7. [7] Nick reverts me again. No edit summary.
8. [8] I request Nick stop edit-warring, on the article's talk page.
9. [9] I make the same request on Nick's talk page.
10. [10] I start this thread, at AN/I. RodhullandEmu tells me I'm in the wrong place. So does Resident Anthropologist, directing me here and marking the thread "deferred"
11. [11] Before I see advice from R&E and Deferral with direction here from RA, I notify Nick of AN/I thread.
12. [12] This series of edits reflect wiki-stalking in realtime. When I realized Nick was going behind me, nearly minute by minute, reverting what I was doing (deleting citations to the WOP Yahoo group and Louis Epstein's Oldest Human beings list, with the customary zero edit summaries) I stopped. But I'm now convinced a more serious sanction than first proposed is in order.
13. [13] Still more edit-warring.

---

1. [14] Similar pattern, slightly earlier, on another longevity page. I delete OHB list with edit summary: "Not a reliable source, per WOP WikiProject notability and sourcing guidance and, more importantly WP:RS. The page disclaims its own accuaracy and sells books before getting to its 1st entry."
2. [15] Nick reverts. Edit summary: "Others must agree." I leave it alone. Then, the pattern repeats as related above and I decide it's time to get Admins involved.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warnings explicit in ArbCom case and implicit in my diffs above. Also

1. [16]
2. [17]
3. [18]
4. [19]

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Admonition, with promise of increasingly strict enforcement for subsequent edit-warring. Two week block, followed by one month topic ban. Impositions of increasingly strict blocks and bans for repeated violations therafter. I'm not yet prepared to conclude Nick's incorrigible, but he's makin' it awful hard to maintain that stance.David in DC (talk) 03:51, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think Nick's approach to collaboration and consensus building is best viewed by looking through his edit history. Most edits are made without summaries at all. Others give a topic-banned editor's name, after the ban, as authority for edits. Others are simply dismissive of others' views. In a contemporaneous MfD discussion about a project subpage I have proposed be deleted or userfied (a page CalvinTy and I have been improving despite my view that it's out-of-bounds,) Nick offered this contribution to the discussion.

[20] Explicit refusal to follow the rules and the ArbCom decision

Reply to EJ: Combine: "The majority of Wiki editors would agree that these new "rules" are ridiculous. I am getting support from many others. I, along with others, have survived Bulten's reign. Bulten tried the same thing, removing WOP citations. But he failed, and got banned for one year." with these diffs, wikistalking and reverting my edits, in realtime, and I can't see how they add up to anything but an explicit refusal to follow the rules: [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27]. David in DC (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Here, Nick reverted my edit with a jaw-dropping edit summary. User:Amatulic reverted Nick's reversion. Amatulic has indicated that he is acting as an admin on these pages, to enforce the ArbCom decision. As of earlier today, Nick is still making edits Amatulic is having to revert to enforce the ArbCom decision. David in DC (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [28]

Discussion concerning NickOrnstein

Statement by NickOrnstein

Frankly, I have not replied to a lot of "wars". It seems pointless replying back on List of disputed supercentenarian claimants, or anywhere of that matter, due to these battles lasting for months (since about October). I have not agreed with removing WOP sources (except from List of oldest living people by nation as of today), many correspondents are on the WOP. There are loads worth of articles with links on that site. So much important information is on the WOP. The group itself is almost as old as Wikipedia. World's Oldest People group is on Longevity claims, along with several other articles. The group is also a backup incase a link becomes dead.

I haven't even bothered to read every little detail regarding the ongoing battles of Bulten vs. Young in the past, especially the fight over the WOP being "reliable". I am going to continue keeping WOP sources, unless there is a source on the internet that is reliable and can replace it. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Blogs are still surviving on some of the articles, some twitter and facebook links were on List of living supercentenarians for months. WOP deserves to stay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NickOrnstein (talk • contribs) 00:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

In the future, I will put forward an attempt to reply with "wars" and edits.

See my edit here [29], if it shines any light on you guys. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Question for Nick... I am not sure what you mean by "I will put forward an attempt to reply with "wars" and edits." It reads (to me) like you are saying that you are refusing to discuss the issue on talk pages, and will instead respond by continuing to edit war. Was this your intent? Please clarify. Blueboar (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I can't edit any more on disputed claimants. The war is over. I fought till the end. I will never support what dave, jude, or any other person says about deleting this article, along with WOP being unreliable. These sources have been used here ever since I came since I began my interests in longevity on Wikipedia in early August 2008. Probably even years before that. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 11:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

This battleground mentality, in this case literally, is a large part of the reason why there's an active AE thread against you. You've been pointed to several places explaining why we're no longer using these sources the same way; none of us want to drag you through this, but you've got to start working with us, not against us. We're all supposed to be striving towards the same goal- building an encyclopedia- and all you need to do is recognize that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning NickOrnstein

My only concern with NickOrnstein is his apparent inability to provide a rationale for his position other than a brief comment here and there as well as his inability to collaborate with other editors as he appears to have the view of "the other editor is wrong, therefore, I will be bold and revert without further comment or explanation". He has not justified why he reverted my attempts to add references to the WikiProject's World's Oldest People's Future supercentenarians subpage in the section I made to elicit a response from NickOrnstein. He has not made a response to date, and he is fully aware of David in DC and my efforts to add citations to the future supercentenarians subpage. So I feel that, at least, NickOrnstein should be warned to be more cooperative & collaborative, than to be bold all the time. Cheers, CalvinTy 18:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to get clarification one one thing, if I may. Am I to understand that the RSN [[30]] page is concerned with the reliability of the GRG only and not the Louis Epstein pages, which I believe is what many of these edit disagreements are about? If so, should it be considered there as well? Epstein verifies cases in a very similar way to the GRG, although granted his work his barely ever cited in news reports etc. Maybe someone could give me a brief rationale as to why this is explicitly not a reliable source (ie not covered by the RSN page, where consensus seems to be leaning towards thinking the GRG is a reliable source)? In terms of NickOrnstein and his editing approach explicitly, from observation I would say he does need to try and be more collaborative. --Melissa.vp198 (talk) 19:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Itsmejudith

Since the Arbcom finished, Ryoung122 has continued to manipulate a number of editors as meatpuppets in this area.

Itsmejudith, shame on you for making FALSE accusations AGAIN. FACT: I first met Brendanology on Wikipedia...he is not someone I ever met personally and not someone I "recruited." So he can't be a "meatpuppet," who is by definition a newbie someone brings to Wikipedia in order to get them to help with "i-votes." FACT: I first met Nick Ornstein on Wikipedia...he is not somone I ever met personally and not someone I "recruited." I challenge you to do your research before making accusations. Question: how long have these two been on Wikipedia? Over a year? Over two years? Clearly not meatpuppets. That's what I thought.

Further: I am a real person, everyone knows who Robert Young is. No one knows who Itsmejudith is, that's a fake ID. So it's a lot easier for you to claim that I have a connection simply because everyone knows who I am.

Things need to calm down..please. Take a step back, and reconsider what you said and whether it was the right thing to do, or not.Ryoung122 03:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I cannot currently add the links because they are blocked by the spam filter, but they are found easily by Googling for "110 Club Wikipedia". The editors colluding include, but may not be limited to, User:Brendanology, User:Melissa.vp198, User:NickOrnstein, User:DerbyCountyinNZ, User:Cam46136, and User:CalvinTy. This is probably the most blatant case of off-wiki collusion ever. Please take the time to review the pages you will find, which contain numerous personal attacks on editors, and discussion of tactics to subvert the ArbCom decision and continue to push points of view on Wikipedia. Ryoung122's topic ban must be converted into a general indefinite ban, and the meatpuppets should also be banned. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, since you are accusing me as a meatpuppet, I should note that I am not a new user and have had a Wikipedia account since 2006. I am only more active in last few days to help assist with the WikiProject subpage and with the position that GRG is a reliable source on my own accord. The recommendation for us to be banned because we also talked about this discussion in a non-Wikipedia space is akin for me to recommend that you are banned for attacking me here. Regards, CalvinTy 18:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, I am quite cognizant of what I say in any space on the Internet, and I have not made any personal attack on any Wikipedia editor. We are not subverting any ArbCom decision at all. Rather, we are trying to make sure that we understand everyone's point of view and how to defend the case that GRG is a reliable source among other points to defend. Please cease and desist in quoting things out of context. To repeat, I have neither made any personal attacks anywhere on any Wikipedia editor nor I have attempted to "subvert the ArbCom decision". I pride myself in being neutral and trying to understand various point of views, including yours, David in DC, A Quest for Knowledge, and all others. What you are doing here is extremely upsetting. You should consider retracting your comment, please. Thank you, CalvinTy 18:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

For clarification, as I'm an administrator on The 110 Club, I do not believe that DerbyCountyinNZ is a member of our forum so I'm not sure if this is a case of mistaken identity by Itsmejudith. I'll advise DerbyCountyinNZ on his talk page on this comment made by Itsmejudith. CalvinTy 18:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking back to the discussions on your website, I see that DerbyCountyinNZ is regarded as a sympathetic outsider and is not a member of the group, so I do retract that one. I note also that NickOrnstein, who self-identifies as a teenager, was insulted on your website for apparently taking too soft a line in the ArbCom. There have been disparaging comments made about David in DC, and in my own case there was a suggestion that someone "lived near" me, i.e. they might attempt to out me or contact me directly (rather than through wiki-enabled email, which would be acceptable). There have been calls for particular kinds of editing to try and get round the ArbCom restrictions. In your case, perhaps you are one of the manipulators rather than the manipulated. Whatever the case, this kind of collusion is utterly unacceptable and I reiterate my request for bans of those involved. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to let you know, itsmejudith, "The 110 Club" forum is not my website. I am just a forum member who became an administrator last year by consensus over there. I'm not responsible for what other members have said in public. I can only advise them not to attack any person directly anywhere including Wikipedia, which I have just done so here: z3.invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=1781&view=findpost&p=2785827. If someone else has insulted NickOrnstein for taking too soft a line in the ArbCom, I can only scold the person on the forum. (Please note that I was not active during the ArbCom as I'm extremely busy with a family of 4 girls, three of them under the age of 2 -- twin girls and newborn girl). I obviously shouldn't provide my opinion on your comment of the collusions since I'm a biased party but I am only concerned that you are taking off-wiki discussions as "collusions", and "therefore, those actions merit a Wikipedia ban".

Regarding myself, can you kindly support your case that I may be a manipulator rather than being manipulated? I feel that I am here on my own accord in my own beliefs, and that I have not recommended anyone to do something specific on Wikipedia other than updating the forum members of the ongoing discussions (and expressing my opinions). Whether RYoung122 have attempted to encourage editors to do something on Wikipedia, which may be considered by some as collusion such as yourself, I cannot answer that because RYoung122 is also an administrator at the website as well. So I cannot discipline RYoung122 for his actions on the forum, only the founder of the forum can do so. Hope this helps clarify some things. Thanks, CalvinTy 19:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:Meatpuppet "When several like-minded editors hold a discussion outside of Wikipedia about an on-going dispute within Wikipedia, with the purpose of swaying the consensus". The 110 Club was doing exactly that before, during and after the ArbCom case. You were fully involved, so were the other editors I've mentioned above, except for DerbyCountyinNZ. It is not allowed, you knew it was not allowed, you just didn't know that your discussions could so easily be found. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

This is going off-tangent from the original request here, Itsmejudith. I have looked at WP:Meatpuppet, and I did not see that quote: "When several like-minded editors hold a discussion outside of Wikipedia about an on-going dispute within Wikipedia". Are you making up quotes, Itsmedjudith? In any case, to actually quote WP:Meatpuppet, "Meatpuppetry is the use of editors as proxies to sway consensus. While Wikipedia assumes good faith, especially for new users, the recruitment of new editors for this purpose is prohibited." None of the editors in question were new editors. Some editors simply took the initiative on The 110 Club to discuss and defend points to other EXISTING Wikipedia editors so that the other existing editors could chime in with their OWN opinion -- not to sway consensus -- because they still presented their own point of view just as I have done myself independently regardless of what point of views (and opinions) RYoung122 and other editors may have. Please do not make assumptions where none exists, itsmejudith. You still have not stated a guideline that says what The 110 Club is doing "is not allowed" so how can we presume to know that what we are doing before, during, and after the ArbCom case "is not allowed"? I believe none of us are of belief that our discussions "would not be so easily be found". RYoung122 fully knew that eyes from Wikipedia would be monitoring The 110 Club, and I do see that The 110 Club has been mentioned in several ArbCom cases over the years. So please stop making assumptions that "we just didn't know that our discussions could be easily be found". Are you here only to argue for the sake of arguing, itsmejudith? It appears that way, and this is my last comment here on this matter because this is WAY off-tangent. Cheers, CalvinTy 20:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI, I regard it as highly offensive to suggest that I have had any offline collusion with any members of the 110 club, whose very existence I was unaware of until being notified of this totally unfounded accusation. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 20:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, DerbyCountyinNZ, that was an error on my part, and there is no accusation of meatpuppetry against you. The rest of it is obviously completely against all our rules and action needs to be taken immediately. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Since an uninvolved administrator, EdJohnston, has chimed in regarding the meatpuppetry discussion -- I am guessing that the tangent issue of meatpuppetry that itsmejudith have accused several people, including myself, as a valid subject to continue talking about here. In that case, I evidently will continue to defend my own position vigorously that I did not collude with any members of The 110 Club to sway them into consensus on any article disputes. Heck, in fact, if anyone would check my contribs, they can see that I was mostly a lurker on Wikipedia since 2006 with minor edits here and there starting in 2009 up to 21 Feb 2011. Then, on 25 Feb 2011, I began to learn more about how Wikipedia works with guidelines and policies and have been quite active since 25 Feb 2011 (60 contribs since then). I have not been part of any past article disputes or even on the most recent ArbCom decision that was handed out on 17 Feb 2011. The current ones where I have provided comments on are the one at RSN about GRG, and the MfD about the potential deletion of the subpage on one of the WikiProject WOP pages, as well as this AE case here. Again, I cannot defend or vouch for any other editors who are also members on The 110 Club forum as I would have to rescue myself since I'm a forum administrator on the forum & I'm not liable for what members say in a public forum.

EdJohnston, my frustration that is showing here is because some people has a habit of making generalizations, or taking things out of context, or simply state their opinion as facts. Here, itsmejudith, she says, "The rest of it is obviously completely against all our rules and action needs to be taken immediately." As you can see, I already have read about WP:Meatpuppetry and could not find something to justify itsmejudith's position that The 110 Club forum members have "completely broken all our rules" and that "the 110 Club was doing exactly that before, during and after the ArbCom case. You were fully involved, so were the other editors I've mentioned above, except for DerbyCountyinNZ. It is not allowed, you knew it was not allowed, you just didn't know that your discussions could so easily be found." She stated things as fact when that cannot be the case if we don't even know what we are in violation of (and I'm ignoring the part where she said I was fully involved in the ArbCom case when I was nowhere in the picture). Just having an off-site discussion about Wikipedia disputes does not in and of itself constitutes a sufficient level of collusion in regards to swaying the consensus in article disputes. Note that I'm using words similar to the ArbCom's Finding of Facts #3, which I quote here: "Membership in or affiliation with the Gerontology Research Group, or any other group named in the evidence to this case, does not in and of itself constitute a substantive conflict of interest with regard to the editing of articles on longevity topics." In my honest opinion, I believe that every editor here (those who are also a member of The 110 Club forum) have made their point of views or opinions on their own accord and that nobody at The 110 Club explicitly told any particular editor "what to say" or "what to do" to influence decisions & disputes on Wikipedia. Sure, we expressed our own opinions, and I think that's where it may have upset itsmejudith where she saw some opinions by some members on the forum talking in a negative sense about some editors here (such as "what he said was silly and unnecessary"). I can be a motormouth just like I am in person, so I'll stop for now.  :-) Sorry for the long comment, EdJohnston. I hope you are able to see the whole picture here. Thanks, CalvinTy 05:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

(To EdJohnston). The dispute is everything related to the Longevity suite of articles that were the subject of the ArbCom case. This behaviour goes back years. If you look at how the Wikiproject World's Oldest People was originally established, you can see that the editors then regarded it as a closed cabal and an extension of their groups on Yahoo! and elsewhere. One of the "gerontology" "experts", Louis Epstein, left the encyclopedia early on after arguing vigorously that he had the right not to put a space after a full stop or comma - norms were not quite so settled then, and Epstein's efforts in tracking oldest people seem to be in competition with the GRG group. Epstein continues to make swipes against Wikipedia. Ryoung122 was indefinitely blocked and then was allowed back. The ArbCom case concentrated on his behaviour after his return and has led to his indefinite topic-ban. It's clear that the editors are carrying on in exactly the same way, i.e. insisting that Wikipedia be an extension of their online forums. I couldn't post the links because their 110 Club forum is a blacklisted site, and now if they have protected the pages we might perhaps be able to get them through the Wayback machine or something? Itsmejudith (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, just the Google search results show you that this forum was used to discuss, and try and influence, Wikipedia disputes. [31] You can see that the group discussed post ArbCom tactics, that Ryoung122 urged another editor to challenge actions by me and David in DC, that during the ArbCom they were ganging up on User:JJBulten. And in this Google search we see a thread entitled "David in DC attacks, where is everyone?". Absolutely blatant. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

By the way, we can add User:Pascar to the list. S/he just reverted me when I removed material related to living people sourced only to Louis Epstein's recordholders.org website. Has been operating as a longevity-records SPA since 2009, before that there were a few edits to Italy and Italian language articles. Also part of conversations on 110 Club, as recently as 16 Feb this year. [32]. Of course, ArbCom's ruling that membership of a longevity interest group does not per se indicate a conflict of interest does not mean that you can use those interest groups to influence Wikipedia. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Robert Young and I have differing opinions on many things: certainly in terms of wikipedia. Surprisingly, I have my own mind...so does CalvinTy. I think Robert Young should back off from the oldest people pages of wikipedia completely, if not the whole site. In fact, seeing as you've been scanning the 110 club forum for evidence, you'll already know this. That fact that there are a group of people who want the oldest people pages to sustain/improve/grow is self evident. Your issue is with Robert Young and not those independently-minded individuals who choose to add their voice to any debate here.--Melissa.vp198 (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a good observation, Melissa. It appears that long-standing editors like Itsmejudith and David in DC (as well as the banned JJB) seem to have various issues with RYoung122 "over the years". It's very true that The 110 Club has been used as a discussion place for the forum members to talk about Wikipedia issues. After all, that forum is about members with like interests in longevity. Naturally, Wikipedia longevity articles are a major source of discussions. That, by itself, is not a violation of any guideline that I know of? Being a forum administrator there, I have seen a lot of discussions and a lot of opinions shared, sure, but since I was not active on Wikipedia, I couldn't know whether Person A was "deliberating canvassing" Person B or not. As far as I could see in recent days that I have been active here, everyone has voiced his or her comments on their own accord, just as Melissa here has done so. Nobody told me to make a comment at all, and I'm certain Melissa will say the same thing that nobody made her to comment, too. I would imagine that it would be a key "test" to confirm that WP:CANVASS has taken place. Thank you, SirFozzie, for the WP:CANVASS guideline because as I have said before, I did take a gander at WP:MEATPUPPET and I couldn't find anything to justify itsmejudith's position. At WP:CANVASS, it was a clearer guideline about what is inappropriate and appropriate on Wikipedia. The only section that could be applicable was the "stealth canvassing" paragraph. However, that only refers to editors trying to contact other editors off-Wiki to canvass or made others aware of a dispute going on. Stealth canvassing cannot apply to a public forum where members are just expressing their opinions or discussing their own point of views on the forum. To answer SirFozzie's comment on my talk page here, if a particular forum member is rallying the troops by making other forum members aware of an action or dispute going on, I don't know if that's canvassing. I feel that canvassing only means that if that member intentionally tells "you troop members have to disagree with that action on Wikipedia". While a statement of "know what? Editor A on Wikipedia has done this action and I disagree with it, so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." Is that really canvassing, SirFozzie? Like I said, I was not active until recently so I can't be guilty like itsmejudith has blatantly suggested that I be banned for canvassing or meatpuppetry. SirFozzie, that's why I am defending my position vigorously. Appreciate your time (and everyone's else) time in reading my long-winded comments!  :-) Cheers, CalvinTy 18:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by O Fenian

I was tangentially involved in a dispute or two leading up to the arbitration case, and I see little has changed. Over 20 hours after being notified of the thread here, and without having replied, he is making edits such as this which restores commented out information with no explanation. The information is sourced to messages in a Yahoo group, which is wholly unacceptable sourcing particularly if the people are still alive as some of them are.

I would suggest something needs to be done about this. O Fenian (talk) 01:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ed, I believe the relevance is in relation to remedy #4. The general consensus at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Oldest people, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#List of disputed supercentenarian claimants and Talk:List of disputed supercentenarian claimants#Notability is that the Worlds Oldest People Yahoo Group (the WOP referred to in the diff) is not a reliable source, in particular for claims that a living person is lying about their age. The new "rules" would be the implementation of remedy #4, since experienced uninvolved editors are not happy about WOP and similar sources being used on the articles in question. O Fenian (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, despite this detailed message about the use of WOP, and the edit summary clearly linking to the reliable sources noticeboard on the left of the following diff, this edit was made earlier today. Given that three days later he has not even bothered to reply here and has carried on the disputed behaviour despite warnings and discussions saying the source is not reliable, it would appear his intentions are clear and that stern measures are needeed. O Fenian (talk) 03:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

More edit warring to add back WOP without any attempt at discussion. O Fenian (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

More edit warring to add back WOP (in some cases other sources are added too, but in the cases of the people from Finland WOP is the only source added) while ignoring all previous discussions and in particular Talk:List of oldest living people by nation#Using Yahoo groups as a citation. Also this which adds a cite to WOP. O Fenian (talk) 20:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by CalvinTy

SirFozzie, I just saw your comment. Be careful for jumping into conclusions with your comment, "Unfortunately, the admins at the 110 Club have removed all the threads from the forum they were in (either moving them to a read only/members only forum, or deleting them). One could say that this is them either realizing what they're doing is not allowed, or taking it private, and we won't be able to tell. I'd say it's pretty damming however." As a matter of fact, the founder of the forum (who -- to the best of my knowledge -- has no Wikipedia account and definitely has no hand in all of this disputes going on) approved, ironically today, the recommendation that topics which made predictions of which supercentenarians may live or die within xx number of months were not appropriate for public view, and topics that covers debates or opinions that members would not want the public to be aware of were also not appropriate for public view, as well as topics in where other members or administrators would admonish other member for their mistakes (such as insulting another member) and where the administrators did not want to split or delete the whole topic so all those topics were moved to a private section of the forum. This is out of respect for our forum members as well as everyone on the Internet as well. SirFozzie, please feel free to ask me any more questions but please do not jump into conclusions like that. Much appreciated. Cheers, CalvinTy 05:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

To add a little bit to what I said last night above, The 110 Club have had a history of "too much transparency" as a public forum and several members including myself had been concerned about some topics & posts where someone made predictions of which people on the Top Ten living supercentenarians would be still living in 6 months, for example, and several people had felt that was not appropriate for public view. What if a family member of a living supercentenarian saw that prediction about their grandmother "not living in 6 months"? Yikes. Since we as a whole have done a lot of research of potential supercentenarians, The 110 Club usually comes on somewhere on the first page in Google search results if you were to google a current living supercentenarian (based on GRG Table E). At the same time, the forum are mainly composed of young people aged 15-25 (I'm not in that age bracket, grins), so there were a lot of instances where administrators had to admonish them for their behavior in middle of relevant & important topics. Deleting the whole topic or splitting specific posts into a new separate topic usually would lose the context of the topic so we just moved them to the "Lounge", an off-topic area, but still in public view (since the entire forum was public anyway). As for Wikipedia, it's the same principle in where we don't want someone from here to get upset when he or she sees a forum member saying, "my goodness, she on Wikipedia does not know what she is talking about". That's why we have had tried to get those topics moved to a private section for a long time. Ironically, the founder approved the recommendation to move 3 areas (predictions, debates, and members) yesterday in midst of this Wikipedia debate on meatpuppetry & canvassing. So I hope that this current changes will help alleviate the hostility that itsmejudith and others appear to have for particular members of that forum who are also Wikipedia editors. For me, I knew that The 110 Club forum is cached in Google searches, and that they may appear in the Wayback machine like itsmejudith said. All I am asking is that we are trying to make changes on the forum for the better. So I don't know if it's worth anybody's time to seek out old topics and find proof of possible canvassing by a particular forum/Wikipedia member. If itsmejudith wants to do that, I will respect her decision but I cannot be a party to it because I am a forum administrator so there is COI so I cannot help with evidence by moving topics back to public view (and that would go against the founder's wishes). I just feel that I pride in being neutral and listen to all sides as well as being professional, civil, and not prone to outbursts, but I was taken aback by itsmejudith attacking me that "I was fully involved.... in breaking all our rules" when that couldn't have been the case. Itsmejudith has attacked me as the editor, not the content of my comments here on Wikipedia. That's quite upsetting. I am not confident enough to begin a AE request on anyone (plus, I really am not here on Wikipedia to expend my energy aruging with other editors; I want to edit articles and not spend too much time in discussions). Sorry for the long book here! That illustrates my point in previous sentence, LOL! Cheers, CalvinTy 19:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

@EdJohnston, thank you for the link to the EEML ArbCom case so I can take a look over there about this to better educate myself about previous precedents on canvassing. I understand your interpretation of canvassing; just that my concern is the last part of the hypothetical sentence: "...so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." That seems to imply that the editor is just notifying other editors about a current event and that the person is being neutral by saying "if you agree with me, then I suggest you go over there and state your opinion". It's not an imperative statement (i.e. an order), correct? Just wondering. In any case, I don't have the time to go over old topics on our forum to see what kind of wording were actually used (and plus, there is the COI issue with myself). I just took a quick look at the EEML ArbCom case, and noticed one apparent erroneous statement by ArbCom unless they meant exactly what they meant: "9) While discussion of Wikipedia and editing in channels outside of Wikipedia itself (such as IRC, mailing lists, or web forums) is unavoidable and generally appropriate, using external channels for coordination of activities that, on-wiki, would be inappropriate is also improper." Did they mean to say "generally inappropriate"? Did I just catch a mistake that nobody had yet, eh?  :-) In any case, in good faith, I can only state and defend myself that I did not canvass anyone to the best of my knowledge, and that I only provided my opinions in some of my posts on the forum to those members who were bringing Wikipedia disputes to our attention. Much appreciated, CalvinTy 19:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

@To all admins, would it be more appropriate if this RfE focuses solely on the originator's (David in DC) request for a two-week block on NickOrnstein for his failure to collaborate with other editors and persistence in re-introducing Yahoo Groups WOP citations into various articles? Considering that most of us are in agreement that Yahoo Groups WOP is not a reliable source, myself included, I don't see a justification for the assumption that "all of the 110 Club forum members are engaging in coordination efforts (even if some of them could be guilty of canvassing)". If itsmejudith or any other editor (and a non-administrator) decides to make a new RfE case, then that's where the The 110 Club forum members can defend their position, not here. I fully recommend that this "drumhead trial" come to a stop here & focus solely on the original RfE. Thanks, CalvinTy 22:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge

Although NickOrnstein has not violated WP:3RR on any article, he has been edit-warring for days to include citatations to Yahoo World's Oldest People Group in multiple articles, including those which involve claims about living people:

• 18:56, March 2, 2011
• 21:29, March 2, 2011
• 21:32, March 2, 2011
• 22:10, March 2, 2011
• 13:34, March 3, 2011
• 20:30, March 3, 2011
• 19:19, March 4, 2011
• 22:51, March 4, 2011
• 12:52, March 5, 2011
• 18:57, March 5, 2011

Since this RfE was filed, NickOrnstein has made over 100 edits[33], and has still not responded to this RfE. I asked NickOrnstein when they planned on responding to this RfE[34] but have not received a response. Since he is apparently unwilling to discuss matters either here or on the relevant talk pages, and he shows no sign of ending his edit-war, he should be blocked until his conduct issues have been resolved. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Blueboar

I have to echo the concerns that others have expressed. I have just had my own brief encounter with Nick on the issue of Yahoo groups, and he definitely seems to want to engage in a revert wars rather than discuss the matter on the talk page. The fact that this is ongoing and crossing over into multiple articles clearly indicates that admin action is needed. He is clearly violating the spirit of 3rr if not the letter. As he refuses to engage on talk pages, the only alternative is to get his attention through a block. Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Further comments by Itsmejudith

Pursuant to a suggestion by EdJohnston, I would like this AE request to be broadened to cover all the members of the 110 Club that have been involved in the recent off-wiki canvassing:

• User: Brendanology
• User: Melissa.vp198
• User: Cam46136
• User: CalvinTy
• User: Ryoung122
• User: Pascar

I am notifying all of those users, plus the following who seem to be members of the group but not involved in recent canvassing:

• User: Bart Versieck
• User: Longevitydude
• User: Plyjacks
• User: SiameseTurtle
• User: Gabe A

The following diffs, currently accessible to me through Google cache, show the pattern:

• [35] Very clear evidence of canvassing, attempt to subvert actions of User:BrownHairedGirl, back in 2008.

• A member advises another how to defend reliability of GRG on RSN, post ArbCom.

• A WP editor accused of suffering from "Stockholm syndrome", contributions to WP judged insufficiently combative.

• A member is recruited to vote in an AfD.

Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Everyone, be advised that when I made my further comments below in my section, itsmejudith had originally explicitly named me above as shown in this diff. I appreciate her redaction. Cheers, CalvinTy 16:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

To be fair to itsmejudith, it was EdJohnston, the admin, who recommended itsmejudith not to use real names. Itsmejudith then took out all names, both real names and Wikipedia names out. Regards, CalvinTy 17:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the defamatory statements, made by Itsmejudith, that I am somehow involved in a conspiracy to subvert the policies of Wikipedia, where is the evidence for such assertions in this accusation. Cam46136 (talk) 14:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)Cam46136

Further comments by CalvinTy

Itsmejudith, the link you provided regarding RYoung122 advising me (which definitely was not the case) would be exactly what I mean by "just because forum members are talking about a Wikipedia debate in a PUBLIC forum, they are not automatically guilty of canvassing". As you can see in that link, I asked where the request for deletion of the WikiProject subage was made (as RYoung122 stated in the original post). Melissa replied with the correct link. I reviewed the discussions, and I myself had some questions for DerbyCountyinNZ and David in DC. I also felt that I wanted to provide my own input in the RSN as well (keeping in mind that NOBODY asked me to go to the RSN and make any comment). Yes, RYoung122 at the end complimented me for making points logically and maturely. (LOL, he probably knows that is a skill that he needs practice with, and he probably would confess to, heh.) However, at least in my view, RYoung122 was not canvassing us in that particular thread. Looking at WP:CANVASS, the four criteria are (and my justification that no canvassing occurred in THAT particular thread only):

Limited posting: The 110 Club longevity forum has only 50 validated members (20-25 active members) and nobody was "mass-posting" anything in that thread. I imagine that there are at least 10 members that also have a similar Wikipedia account as well.

Neutral: Everyone in that thread was providing information about where everything was being covered. I also posted my thoughts from my edits. Nobody was pleading anyone else to "change something".

Audience: it is not fair to say that the audience is "partisan" because all of the forum members are interested in longevity. Why should it be an automatic strike on us when we are talking about longevity articles on Wikipedia as well as the WikiProject's World's Oldest People -- which many of the same forum members/Wikipedia editors are also a project member? This "small community" cannot be guilty of partisanship "just because we are too closely associated to longevity".

Transparency: we forum members all fully knew that The 110 Club was a public forum, available in Google Cache, so when we were participating in that particular thread, we were transparent about our own opinions and thoughts.

Summary: That particular thread does not meet ANY of the four criteria of canvassing. Like I said earlier, I fear that this has become a ""drumhead trial", clumping up all members of a small longevity forum as "guilty" for canvassing. NOTE: I am not saying that no canvassing has occurred in the past, but I was not active on Wikipedia and was not familiar with the WP:CANVASS so even if I am a forum administrator there, I had no idea whether some members may have been actively canvassing at that time. That's why I would appreciate a separate RfE for any direct evidence of canvassing against any alleged members like what itsmejudith feels that RYoung122 has done so in canvassing, as well as SirFozzie's point of view here.

Expanding this RfE only complicates matters because I fear that NickOrnstein's stubborness reflects poorly on other longevity editors such as myself for no reason. I even admonished him myself, but has anyone here cares that I'm being neutral -- or that doesn't matter -- "because you are a forum administrator over there at The 110 Club so you are a guilty party"? If so, that's disappointing. I really don't want to go through the chain of command, but I feel like I am backed into a corner. If necessary, I will have to request enforcement (however that works, but I fear that I have to escalate this matter to a higher level) against any & all editors and administrators who keep insisting on "clumping up" and "generalizing" all longevity editors together from a small forum with the perception of us being a "bad bunch of people and guilty of violating guidelines" when I'm certain that several of us like myself and Melissa are just expressing our opinions on our own accord and, to the best of our knowledge and faith, we have not violated any guidelines.

Your protests that the 110 Club forum has done nothing wrong aren't helped much by this thread, four days ago, which is just more of the behaviour complained about. I find it so sad to see people wasting their time in this way and creating a battleground when there really doesn't have to be one. And this thread where NickOrnstein wants me and David and DC to be kicked out of a WikiProject. This in itself could be enough for NickOrnstein to be banned (uninvolved admin will decide), but I really think that the atmosphere in the group needs to be taken into account. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I was given good advice by a good long-standing editor here that I don't need to defend everything left and right as you see I have done lately. I will try to be more careful about that because I wholeheartedly agree with you that there shouldn't be a battleground at all. We are just passionate about longevity, and yes, some behavior is still an issue such as NickOrnstein refusing to comply with not using WOP links in article mainspace. We can hash that out here with the appropriate sanction, I hope. Regarding the first thread you mentioned, I was saying the same thing about NickOrnstein here that he needs to improve his collaboration with other editors. Then I asked SiameseTurtle for his opinion about being which kind of source GRG is: primary source, reliable source, or self-published source. Then I told you here (and gave you a link, as a matter of fact) that I pleaded everyone NOT to attack any person on Wikipedia. Then the last post was RYoung122 letting us know that Louis Epstein has been published by third-party sources. Like EdJohnston said below, "one could argue there is not enough evidence of on-wiki mischief due to the off-wiki coordination". Exactly what I feel. Last, I have said that I understand that some of previous posts on that forum could be considered canvassing; particularly after I learned about the WP:CANVASS. I am pleading with you that if you feel strongly about the canvassing and/or personal attacks, that's understandable but please direct them to the offending people, not the entire forum. Should SiameseTurtle or AMK or Melissa or I receive a discretionary sanction (@admins, what does that mean, curious?) because we were "part of the same atmosphere" that other forum members may have cultivated? That's all. (Darn, I didn't do a good job of not trying to defend everything... I need more practice.  :-) ) Cheers, CalvinTy 20:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggesting a potential compromise by CalvinTy

@admins, first, what is a discretionary sanction? Of more concern, why should every member of The 110 Club forum receive one automatically regardless of their level of involvement, if any, in a possible violation of any guidelines (which, to date, is quite debatable and has not been sufficiently proven)?

So, rather, I have a potential compromise here: I think a statement from each forum member voluntarily stating that "We have now reviewed WP:CANVASS and WP:MEATPUPPET guidelines, and we acknowledge not to violate those guidelines, and that we will not take action at the direction of any other Wikipedia editor." would be sufficient? If we make this voluntarily statement, and then one of us violate it, then that's where a sanction or enforcement of a ban of some length would finally be appropriate. Regarding NickOrnstein's actions, if the administrators feel that there is a consensus for him to receive a two-week ban then enforce that. Would that be a good compromise? Regards, CalvinTy 11:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning NickOrnstein

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• David in DC argues that NickOrnstein is engaged in 'explicit refusal to follow the rules and the ArbCom decision', offering this diff as evidence. Can anyone explain the significance?
• Regarding meatpuppetry, even if we were to accept that certain editors have been coordinating off-site, can anyone give examples of some article disputes where this set of people acted in concert to sway the decision? EdJohnston (talk) 02:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the admins at the 110 Club have removed all the threads from the forum they were in (either moving them to a read only/members only forum, or deleting them). One could say that this is them either realizing what they're doing is not allowed, or taking it private, and we won't be able to tell. I'd say it's pretty damming however. SirFozzie (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• If NickOrnstein continues to link to World's Oldest People against the apparent consensus, won't explain his reverts and won't respond here, I think that may be held against him. EdJohnston (talk) 03:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• A case for sanctioning NickOrnstein appears to be developing. If others believe that we should also warn the editors who are part of '110 Club Wikipedia' for meatpuppeting, please notify them of this discussion and add a comment in your own section above with a diff of your notice. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• @CalvinTy: "know what? Editor A on Wikipedia has done this action and I disagree with it, so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." Yes, that is canvassing. The fact that it is off-wiki on a forum that is now closed to outsiders makes it worse. See the WP:EEML Arbcom case for a precedent. EdJohnston (talk) 18:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
• WP:RSN shows a consensus that the Yahoo WOP group is inappropriate to cite. WP:ELNO specifically singles out Yahoo groups as links to avoid. NickOrnstein persists in restoring them when they are deleted, typically without comment or justification. Supposedly those forum messages cited contain their own references to actual reliable sources; if that's the case then those sources need to be cited instead. I have left a rather detailed warning on NickOrnstein's talk page, which went un-heeded. I have left a final warning. Further disruption will result in a block independent of the outcome of this AE report. If there are other WOP members lurking around ready to restore those links, I am prepared to blacklist the Yahoo group. NickOrnsein is otherwise productive, so I recommend that he be banned from adding WOP links but otherwise not banned from his area of interest. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
• There have also been some discussions of this request at User talk:CalvinTy and at User talk:EdJohnston. In one of these, I suggested that members of the Yahoo WOP group agree to identify themselves as such on Wikipedia, agree to abstain from counted votes on such matters as whether to include WOP links in articles, and agree not to add WOP links to articles themselves. This could be a way for them to avoid sanctions here. If there is no agreement on that, it could be imposed as a discretionary sanction. This would be less draconian than banning those editors from working on longevity completely. EdJohnston (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
• The confused and overlong request does not make clear how the conduct at issue violates any applicable rule, and the confused and overlong discussion is of no help. On this basis, I am not taking any action.  Sandstein  18:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
• @Sandstein: The complaint against NickOrnstein looks to be one of conventional long-term edit-warring. The meatpuppet issue is in a gray area, and one could argue there is not enough evidence of on-wiki mischief due to the off-wiki coordination. The arguments of the 110 Club that they are not canvassing seem to misunderstand policy. On the meatpuppet issue, I could imagine that notifying all the club members of the discretionary sanctions might be enough of a response. EdJohnston (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
  • How about this then (speaking as an admin/editor, not as an arb)? Take the action on Nick discussed above, and warn the members of the 110 Club who post on WP of discretionary sanctions, and also remind them that they should not be taking action at the request of Ryoung, who is topic-banned from this area? SirFozzie (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Neilduffy112

1RR/week editing restriction on Troubles articles for three months. EdJohnston (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Neilduffy112 User requesting enforcement O Fenian (talk) 09:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Neilduffy112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it [36] Revert #1, to this version [37] Revert #2, to this version, within 24 hours of the first revert thus breaching 1RR Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) [38] Warning by O Fenian (talk · contribs) Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) Block Probably not needed now he has agreed to stop edit warring. O Fenian (talk) 18:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Additional comments by editor filing complaint Depending on the definition of revert, this edit made in between the two edits above can also be classed as a revert as it certainly fits the "More broadly, reverting may also refer to any action that in whole or in part reverses the actions of other editors" definition. O Fenian (talk) 09:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [39] Discussion concerning Neilduffy112 Statement by Neilduffy112 I must firstly say sorry for this, it is the first time I have tried to edit on Wikipedia, and on this topic i will not inter fear any further. All i was trying to do was highlight the facts that in the page "martin mcgartland", that the word informer should not be used as it is fact that the subject was working for MI5, Special Branch and the PSNI (RUC) two years prior to him infiltrating the IRA, on orders from the mentioned. I have also looked at the discussion page since, and noticed that I am not the only one whom has tried and failed to have the page represent the truth. If I am to be blocked for trying to correct a mistake then so be it, and it will just show that the "democracy" we live in is failing. Thank you for giving me the chance to have my say. I do not find the severity of the offence deserves to be blocked, I find a fairer punishment would be a topic ban, but I will leave it to the powers that be. If you are to look at my history it is my first offence. Sorry O Fenian --Neilduffy112 (talk) 11:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Neilduffy112 Perhaps a short block might be in order, but any extensive one will surely guarantee loss of a new editor on WP. Meanwhile, I would suggest a more polite introduction to WP would be well-advised. Giving a "Warning" at the same instant as a "Welcome" seems a tad overbearing at best. OF describes his position on the subject clearly in Also agent implies some sort of legitimacy, rather than a traitor who sold out for money. (O Fenian (talk) 18:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)) Also NeilDuffy properly used the article talk page at [40] showing his willingness to follow WP procedures here. I note OF has made no reply to NeilDuffy's post. Slack is called for, and an admonishment to OF to be more "welcoming" than was evinced. I happen to feel, moreover, that calling the subject of the BLP a "traitor" may show an intrinsic POV on the part of an editor, while WP:BLP requires contentious claims to be exceedingly well sourced. Collect (talk) 11:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Cough. And for your information Martin McGartland acknowledges he is seen as a traitor in his own book, he talks about money quite a lot too. O Fenian (talk) 11:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC) It is "bad form" to try debating at AE, as others may see a POV confirmed. I would note your ownership of the article as a result. Now I suggest absolutely no block on NeilDuffy, as opposed to a short one. Collect (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC) It is also bad form to imply I have made no post to the talk page. O Fenian (talk) 12:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC) I do not have tachyon memory - your reply to him was 21 minutes after my post at 12:06. My post was at 11:45. Collect (talk) 14:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Again, your insinuation is incorrect. My first post to the talk page regarding his edits (linked above) was at 10:29, 3 March 2011, over 19 hours before his. O Fenian (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC) IOW, you managed to reply to him before his post and his 2nd revert? Somehow I do not count that as a "reply" to his post on the article talk page, nor as a reply to the 2nd revert. Which, as an aside, you likely ought to have given him a chance to self-revert before seeking enforcement here as a matter of form. Collect (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Once again, you tendentiously implied that he had posted to the talk page regarding the dispute and I had not. That you are not even prepared to admit this is quite revealing. O Fenian (talk) 00:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC) I'm not sure what's wanted here in view of the change to the submission. If it doesn't merit a block it surely doesn't merit a topic ban. Neilduffy112 is self-evidently now aware of the restrictions which apply to editing Troubles-related articles so that a warning seems superfluous. What's left? Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC) It could probably be closed as no action required at present. O Fenian (talk) 00:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Neilduffy112 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. From his statement above, Neilduffy112 has strong views about Martin McGartland, and he may even know McGartland personally. He doesn't seem to respect our policy: "If I am to be blocked for trying to correct a mistake then so be it, and it will just show that the "democracy" we live in is failing." I do not see any promise from Neil to wait for consensus before editing the articles about Martin McGartland. I suggest that he be placed on Troubles probation for two months. This will limit him to one revert per week on each Troubles article. He will still be able to use the talk pages. EdJohnston (talk) 01:24, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Since Neilduffy112 continued to revert the article on March 5 after making his rather conciliatory comment above, and since my last proposal, I am concluding that he has not agreed to change his approach. He is placed on placed on Troubles probation for three months. This will limit him to one revert per week on each Troubles article. The restriction will expire on 7 June, 2011. EdJohnston (talk) 01:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Well thank you very much.........lol........ It was a copyright infringement that was removed if you want to see permission for my removal then please send me your address and I will send it to you........--Neil Duffy (talk) 05:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)