User talk:Wnt

For comments February 2008 to December 2010 see User:Wnt/Archive/1.
For comments January 2011 to December 2013 see User:Wnt/Archive/2.

Your request for undeletion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that a response has been made at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion regarding a submission you made. The thread is Ward J. M. Hagemeijer. JohnCD (talk) 09:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

January 2014

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• 2013 the [[La Jolla Pharmaceutical Company]] was granted [[orphan drug]] status for testing of 4-(6-(4-(piperazin-1-yl)phenyl_pyrazolo[1,5-a]pyrimidin-3-yl)quinoline hydrochloride for treatment of

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Awww hell, my source has it wrong. I wonder if the Orphan Drug status doesn't count if the official announcement fails to balance its parentheses... Wnt (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Regardless

Regardless of the issue at hand, I have to say "Even Moses said not to muzzle the ox that treadeth the grain!" is the best allusion I have seen at Wikipedia in months. μηδείς (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey, thanks! Though any truly viable analogy can be argued both ways... The rule about muzzling the ox at once expresses modern humane sentiments, yet seems rather repulsive, even before we get into the question of what they did or didn't do about the other end of the ox. It will be valuable as Refdesk respondents for us to try to strive that our digressions do more to pursue knowledge than to dump on the discussion, so we're at the right end of the metaphor. :) Wnt (talk) 22:41, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

I wrote you a long reply and it has disappeared due to an edit conflict, so briefly...I set up the Ram site in 2001 to combat all the pernicious lies that have been spread about the case.

If you check old versions of the page you will find my corrections and the reverts they made. I didn't have an account then and don't know why I bother.

Everything about that case is lies, including the four citations at the bottom of the page now, lies.

I didn't brand Ram a murderer, the jury did that, and his conviction was held up twice on appeal and rejected by the CCRC.

The official documents on the site are far more reliable than left wing press reports, they include the Court Of Appeal transcripts.

Such is the bias of Wikipediots is that they have even removed my updates, like about Ram's recall to prison and his rearrest. He spent several more years in gaol.

These people are not interested in the truth.

Tell me by the way how this thug is "notable" while David Webb is not?

Thanks for your interest.

Thanks for your edits to The Day We Fight Back! I wouldn't have thought to include that information. All the best, Ross HillTalk to me! 06:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

AfC in talk space

I saw you wondering why AfC is in TalkSpace, but I didn't see that your query was answered. It actually was a clever idea, with some unfortunate consequences. The community has decided that IPs ought not to have the ability to create a new article in mainspace, which means that an AfC concept would prohibit IPs from contributing if the draft had to be in mainspace. Creating them in talk meant that IPs could contribute, as well as the minor additional benefit that it was easy to No-index.

However, this left the awkwardness that you noticed, and troubled me, there are times you want to add some comments or advice or whatever, and the "natural" place to do this is on the article talk page, except that it is already in the Talk page. The second choice might be the editor talk page, but if they are an IP, that might not work, especially if they are a dynamic IP.

This is one of the main reasons I fully supported the concept of the Draft space. It means:

• IPs can contribute
• Comments can be placed in the natural location, the talk page of the draft
• No-indexing is easy
• I hope, but do not yet know, that it will make searching easier. I field questions every day on OTRS about some article which turns out to be an AfC submission. It isn't easy to find. I hope that will be easier in the Draft space, but this is a minor point, the first three are the big ones for me.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I worked as a research scientist in aerospace and other government supported programs from 1956 to 1998. In that 42 year period I never heard of any government supported program that ran for anything remotely like the 23 years that the SRI program had support. At Lockheed where I was saving aircraft from wind-shear and air turbulence, we had to fight to get one year extensions. And though NASA loved the program, they simply didn't support any outside research past five years. I propose you drop the idea that that we were supported for "only" 23 yeas, shows a defect in the research. That's an absurd proposition. Knowledgeable people are stunned that the CIA supported is for two decades. Torgownik (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)Russell <russ at Targ.co>

Re: the filter thing

Thanks for your help, I'll try accessing the test page you put up when I'm at school tomorrow and see if it's blocked. Getting online in school hours is pretty hit and miss, but I'll do what I can. The thing that bothers me is that this is a really common blocking system in England; I think I actually remember it from primary school so for all I know it could be stopping millions of schoolkids from accessing those articles. For the moment I've been able to find a workaround (using HTTPS instead of HTTP seems to do the trick most of the time) but I'd much rather the pages were unblocked for everyone. Aethersniper (talk) 19:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Wow. That is a really, really, really dumb filter :) Wnt (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, what makes it worse is that the pages I mentioned are blocked under "intolerance", which means that even the staff can't access it without a workaround. Also blocked are a bunch of BBC revision pages on drugs and puberty. The really scary thing is that it always blocks things that shouldn't be blocked, but when it comes to things that actually should be blocked (virus ridden websites, etc) the filter's nowhere to be found. Thanks again - Aethersniper (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, one of the rites of passage for the intelligent modern schoolchild is to help his teachers bypass the school's censorware. Wnt (talk) 19:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

By the way, I just visited the test pages you posted, and there's no block on either of them. Thanks - Aethersniper (talk) 09:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

USA Freedom Act

I just wanted to let you know I created the article you suggested and others have been helping to improve it. I want to apologize for not acting on your suggestion earlier. I hope you don't think that I don't value your opinion-- when you take on a whole new endeavor, it takes a while to get your bearings and prioritize. Your excellent suggestion temporarily slipped through the cracks, and I deeply respect the time you took to bring that suggestion back to our attention so we could revisit it. I will continue to work on the two articles you suggested in the coming days and weeks. Thanks again for your participation at Wikipedia:Surveillance awareness day. Your contributions have 100% helped increase the likelihood that it will be a productive effort.

I look forward to further guidance from you and other main page experts about how we can improve the quality of the proposal or the proposed content items. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:22, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Make sure to propose these for DYK and to reserve them specifically for February 11. Wnt (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

How's this for a hook: " ...the the proposed USA Freedom Act, which would undo much of the Patriot Act, was submitted by Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, author of the Patriot Act?" --HectorMoffet (talk) 19:46, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, remember that Section 215 was "but one ring, one segment" of the Patriot Act that had provisions for anti-terrorism laws, border enforcement, money laundering, etc. I would say " ...that the proposed USA Freedom Act, which would undo certain mass surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act, was submitted by Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, author of the Patriot Act?" Wnt (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Nominated at T:TDYK! did I do it right? --HectorMoffet (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Just a random comment... this really is an interesting hook. Here is how the Guardian worded it: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, who worked with president George W Bush to give more power to US intelligence agencies after the September 11 terrorist attacks, said the intelligence community had misused those powers by collecting telephone records on all Americans, and claimed it was time "to put their metadata program out of business". petrarchan47tc 23:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Zyprexa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2013_August_3#Zyprexa_interacting_with_vitamins. "How are they supposed to use the web at all without a search engine?" Easy. You don't have to use a search engine for Wikipedia, YouTube, Armor Games, USGS, Live Quakes Map, Rival Ball, UTorrent. Right? Those are the sites I have access to. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. In a sense anything with a search is a search engine, but it's true that you can get at some things with unusual search engines. But I'm surprised all those searches work without access to Google's Javascripts. I thought YouTube was part of Google. Anyway, I suppose it depends on how you use the web - I suppose often I search for something obscure where I want every means. (I suppose PubMed also would count as an alternative search engine) Wnt (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you use simple words? How to play your trivia quiz? I was thinking proper search engines.--78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:29, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Earthquakes_in_2013&action=history --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Look closely. See anything unusual?--78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Not really. What?

I should add that I notice you have a strong interest in the Revelation of John, but I find the popular interpretations of it to be unnecessarily gloomy. Yes, looking over a white-knuckled standoff with the Soviet Union, it was easy for people to see a "nuclear apocalypse" coming any day. But this doesn't seem compelling on an emotional level. If God is a good parent, why would God reward children for having a tantrum by giving them all new and better toys? It seems to make more sense that first humanity should make the world as good as it can possibly be, and then, since it is imperfect, everything falls apart again (at which point things like deaths from earthquake and plague will truly stand out from the course of history), and then, having learned to do our best with it, mankind is given a new revision. I would suppose Hitler could say on Judgment Day that some little Jewish brat beat him up for his lunch money when he was in first grade. Only in a perfect world can it be apparent when evil arises without any cause whatsoever. There is many a way to read a religious text for inspiration, and for all the prophecies of doom and gloom, there should be as many for peace to break out. I can see how someone might expect a nuke over Syria, but maybe this will be the time that people, by the will of God, finally bind up oppression and war and famine and death at the banks of the Euphrates, and usher in a millennium of peace and freedom. We live in a world where childbirth can come without pain, menstruation is optional, work seems to be becoming all but unnecessary except as a demand of poorly organized society, where the bite of a poisonous snake doesn't have to be fatal ... why shouldn't people picture a world where people dance joyfully to the very gates of Eden? Wnt (talk) 04:57, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

See line number 16 counting from top of the revisions. Can you use simple words?--78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Draft:FISA Improvements act

I want to refer you to the draft and invite your collaboration. If you wish, you can submit it to DYK. I personally am of the opinion that scheduling more than one DYK about mass surveillance on Feb 11 requires a site-wide polling. But you have a good argument that the Olympics are just as value-laden as any other social movement, and I don't want to be an impediment to you making that case.

I nominated one DYK for Feb 11, which is enough for my level of comfortability. I'm going to keep working on relevant articles, and I'll leave it to you or an RFC to nominate others for DYK on Feb 11 or not.

I'd also invite you to participate in Wikipedia:WikiProject Mass surveillance. --HectorMoffet (talk) 16:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Draft:FISA Improvements act now meets minimum length requirements. If you feel it's ready for a DYK nom, move it into article space and nominate it. --HectorMoffet (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

@HectorMoffet: Here goes... [1] I'm not the greatest hook writer; someone else might have a sexier way to put it. Wnt (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Would you set up an RFC?

There's a growing consensus that we need a sitewide RFC, asap, to discuss any plans to do something special on Feb 11. I'm hesitant to set it up myself, as my attempt to lead this didn't work out so well. Since you were one of the clearest and earliest voices calling for us to do something special, would you consider setting one up? --HectorMoffet (talk)

My position, as I'm saying on Jimbo's page,^[2] is that I don't think we need to have an RFC (provided that exceptional obstructionism doesn't require us to have one to do what everyone else does already) because I think we can do all that we practically can do about the Feb. 11 protest as individuals working together. I don't think it's likely that Wikipedians in general want to have the site come forward in favor of the USA Freedom Act instead of the FISA Improvements Act, which leaves the question of what exactly the notice could be. As I've said there, I think Wikipedia should come forward in favor of specific victims of censorship, which is ultimately the effect of surveillance that we all worry about, but in order not to come off like we're just sounding off on any political issue we feel like, we have to be able to demonstrate a very clear connection to the work we do as volunteers here. Wnt (talk) 19:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Next up in the article queue

So, per your above opinion, I think Petrarchan47 is taking point on the RFC once Petra has finalized the wording.

In the mean time, I've been spending my time trying to create relevant articles that WP really should have. The two obvious omissions were USA Freedom Act and FISA Improvements Act. Now that that's done, what looks good to you?

I think Draft:Stop Watching Us is looking good, but please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject Mass surveillance and look at the drafts there or add some. I have some time on my hands, and as long as there's lots of NPOV/V/NOR sources, I can keep writing, day by day. Your input into the articles that would be good fits at WP or DYK would be most appreciated.

Keep up the good work and the good leadership! :) --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Intelligence redirects

I was trying to follow your valiant efforts, but it seems Wikipedia:WikiProject Intelligence redirects to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Intelligence task force -- and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Intelligence simply redirects to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history.

Just thought you should know, as those redirects might impede your efforts -- unless you might prefer to keep it as a task force off of WP:MILHIST.

Thanks for your efforts so far,

— Cirt (talk) 04:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry! -- there's a WP:WikiProject Intelligence Agency (which I saw you'd been at) and a Portal:Intelligence associated with it... and I must have gotten mixed up somewhere when describing links. Wnt (talk) 06:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/FISA Improvements Act at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; see step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 08:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Another draft for your eyes

Check out Draft:Mass surveillance in North Korea and see whatcha think. --HectorMoffet (talk) 06:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you think Draft:Stop Watching Us has a DYK in it somewhere? --HectorMoffet (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Thx for your suggestions on Stop Watching Us, i've tried to implement them. I'm still on-board with supplying you content for DYK-- if you have any suggests for where I should focus my efforts, I'd welcome it. --HectorMoffet (talk) 05:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Article on journalism post leaks?

Is now here petrarchan47tc 07:23, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

This is an impressive set of information (really, you should have posted this to WP:WikiProject Mass Surveillance). Even so, I still wouldn't be surprised to see an article on the "Snowden effect" end up at AfD with a proposal for a forcible merge into Snowden's biography, or one about the intimidation of the Guardian likewise being shoved at that article. The thing about all this surveillance stuff is that it all ties in together - whenever I pull on any one thing, I find myself sidetracked again and again. How do we drive a stake in this thing and say here is our article?

When I think of it, the real issue I'd like to see gotten at is how secrecy is morphed into censorship. That's the story, after all, with the Guardian's hard drive or Barrett Brown's html link or federal employees told not to read Wikileaks (or even that thing with Quenton Tarantino's leaked script on Gawker). Honestly, I think a valid (though remote) analogy is the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Before this was passed, an escaped slave was the master's problem; residents of Northern states were free to treat them with kindness, and resentment of the Southern institution. But the effect of the bill was to press many Northerners to either become de facto slave-catchers, or else break the law. The situation with leaks and national security letters seems to be headed the same way, where random people are forced into complicity over somebody else's problem. And as a result, we see a transition from "this is secret and nobody better find out about it" to "YOU, peasant scum, aren't allowed to know things like this." Now to address that feeling in an article, document its roots and expressions comprehensively, is still a tough thing to plan. I'm thinking there should be something about censorship of classified information, or leaked information, or secret information, etc., but that doesn't feel precisely right either. Wnt (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

It might be easier if you didn't consider it a feeling - ie, amorphous, unobservable, unverifiable - it's simply a matter of following, and documenting, the story of classified information, leaks, retaliation and resulting suppression of information. YOU, peasant scum, aren't allowed to know things like this has, of course, always been the ideology at the top. petrarchan47tc 06:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

• "Society really seems to have developed an unquestioning obedience towards spooky types… Did we get to where we are today via a slippery slope that was entirely within our control to stop? Or was it a relatively instantaneous sea change that sneaked in undetected because of pervasive government secrecy?" -Edward Snowden 2010 Seemed a bit similar to your post. petrarchan47tc 11:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Did I do this right?

Second attempt, at DYK nom. Look if over, if you would, and make sure it meets the standards. --HectorMoffet (talk) 18:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I think the hook is OK (caveat: I think that in common usage, any "part-time informer" is indeed an informer, the necessary threshold of involvement being as low as for a traitor, I suppose, but I don't know for a fact that this is true of all English around the world). However, the section in the article was very confusing so I rewrote it. I still don't understand whether the 'Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter' was a full time paid position or something else, but that doesn't directly affect the hook. Wnt (talk) 19:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Awesome-- please feel free to suggest any alternate hook text-- your article improvement was much appreciated. Any suggestions for what at WikiProject Mass surveillance might make a good DYK hook? We have several drafts brewing over there, and if you can think of any articles we'll missing, I'll get to work on them-- I make a lousy leader, but I can do some pretty good writing sometimes. :)

Additionally, if you feel like it, you might review Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution which is now at FAC. Peer feedback said it was ready for FAC, but more eyeballs the better. --HectorMoffet (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to join WikiProject Freedom of speech

• WP:WikiProject Freedom of speech

There is a WikiProject about Freedom of speech, called WP:WikiProject Freedom of speech. If you're interested, here are some easy things you can do:

1. List yourself as a participant in the WikiProject, by adding your username here: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Freedom_of_speech#Participants.
2. Add userbox {{User Freedom of speech}} to your userpage, which lists you as a member of the WikiProject.
3. Tag relevant talk pages of articles and other relevant pages using {{WikiProject Freedom of speech}}.
4. Join in discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Freedom of speech.
5. Notify others you think might be interested in Freedom of speech to join the WikiProject.

Thank you for your interest in Freedom of speech, — Cirt (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

So, what are we missing?

Assuming we had a consensus to put NPOV content on mainpage, how are we doing? We have Afroyim v. Rusk for TFA is no repeats are allowed, and maybe Freedom for the thought we hate if repeats are allowed. We have solid POTD Template:POTD/2014-02-21.

Do you think the DYKs are good enough to merit inclusion? Do you think there are any pages we're missing that we should create and propose at DYK?

I've got some time, and I'll leave it to the experts to decide the scheduling. --HectorMoffet (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Can you help fix the concerns raised at Template:Did you know nominations/Arizona Fourth Amendment Protection Act? --HectorMoffet (talk) 16:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Thx for the improvements at the Arizona article! Any response to the concerns raised at Template:Did you know nominations/USA Freedom Act? --HectorMoffet (talk) 17:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

This was left at my talk page

Arizona Fourth Amendment Protection Act citations

I see that in addition to being the DYK nominator, you are the original drafter and major editor to date of Arizona Fourth Amendment Protection Act. I note that many of the citaitons in this article are to bare URLs. It would be better practice, as discussed in WP:CITE to provide such metadata (the term is perhaps ironic in this particular case) as author, date, and source where this is available. This can be done using the cite templates such as {{cite web}}, {{cite news}}, {{cite journal}}, and {{cite book}}, or it can be done manually, or via any of various other methods. I like the cite tempaltes myself, and I also like list-defined references, but any method may be used. I could have placed a twinkle maintenance tag, but I didn't want to hold up the DYK. Can you look into adding metadata to the cited references? DES ^(talk) 17:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Friendly check-in

Hey, I just want you to know that, despite how it might seem, I'm on your side on this (to the extent there are "sides"). I just want to make sure we're complying with Wikipedia policies and guidelines while we go about our good work. :-) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't really seem that way. I mean, that's probably the most definitive announcement of this event. Sure, it's a Reddit thread, but an official thread from named persons to answer questions, on the site whose founder the event commemorates. You may or may not personally favor NSA reform, but interactions like this do much to illustrate that on Wikipedia, the main "sides" worth speaking of are still the inclusionists and the deletionists. Wnt (talk) 05:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I urge you not to think of things in such a black-and-white manner. There are some articles in which I have only a passing interest, and for those I tend to critique other's work (which effectively means I do a lot of deleting). There are other (fewer) articles in which I take a more active, creative role. That's just my editing style. Some folks just do copy editing. We all bring our own skills and contributions to the table. Trimming the fat is a very important part of the process. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Up to you

So obviously, I've been harassed pretty successfully. Initially I didn't submit content to DYK, but the complaints about that led me to nominated at DYK. A little voice in the back of my head said "What if someone tries to sabotage this initiative by fast-tracking nominations so the run BEFORE feb 11, despite the stated hold request?". But I thought "Come on, this is Wikipedia-- Assume Good Faith! No one would be that much of an ahole".

I was wrong. The OWNers of mainpage are so offended by any suggestion pf NOTBUREAUCRACY is being 'vetoed' by main page apparatchiks, not that they actually have that power.

It clear I don't have the skills set to generate a consensus. I hope you and Jimbo and our other board members do have that skillset. I've done my best to generate options for the community if consensus emerges, but I'm deeply troubled by how a small handful of users presumes to prejudge the outcome of a discussion.

It's time for me to check out-- I got you a POTD and 8 DYK noms, but I don't have the constitution for the ensuing debate. Feb 11 may or may not be special-- the responsibility for making it special lies with you and jimbo.

Do your best. :) --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@HectorMoffet and Wnt:Just wanted to weigh in that I've been quite successfully harassed as well. You can view my talk page for the (mostly deleted) proof, as well as the histories of the Russ Tice article and Snowden talk page. It's one thing to 'keep the faith', but at a certain point, an editor sometimes has to walk away. This I have discovered can happen when folks decide to gang up, join forces, and spent heaps of time and energy pursuing a goal. Blessings to you both, petrarchan47tc 21:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47: I do see some significant issues with deletions on Snowden, but it's hard for me to be as sympathetic about Tice. My position is inclusionist, so I can't get behind something like [3]. I realize that people from multiple points of view are going to edit these articles, and I don't expect the articles to end up slanted toward my point of view; I just want them stuffed by all parties involved with all possible information out of a moral certainty that when all the information is put down, the article will have the effect of persuading people to my point of view (or, I should hope much less likely, of forcing me to reevaluate my point of view). I would urge you to avoid the extremes of forcefulness and disillusionment, focusing instead on being creative and looking for now things to edit about. Wnt (talk) 21:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The revert you show is a revert to work I hadn't done, but it reverted the Wikilinked "psychotic" that had been added to the first prargraph of a BLP. When I finally tore myself away from the project I was working on to tend to the Tice article, I created this section to deal with his dismissal - rather than have it be the first thing one reads and presented in a way that leaves the reader wondering about Tice's sanity. In fact, his sanity is not questioned and he was only last month referred to as a whistleblower, and asked for feedback on the NSA story by the Guardian, Reuters and PBS Newshour. Wikipedia should read more like these sources, who don't even mention the government's reason for letting him go (though I am not suggesting we omit this), but only refer to him in the most respectful ways. It shouldn't be people who edit here whose points of view end up on the page, but really that of RS. petrarchan47tc 23:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, the placement can be different, and I'd love to see you use all those sources to refute the allegation of psychosis more convincingly than the present version, but I don't like to see sources go away. I think the reader can be trusted, by this point, to take anything and I mean anything the NSA says with a grain of salt, given their apparent ability to lie flat-out to Congress and get away with it, and all they need is the factual counterpoint to reinforce that feeling. Wnt (talk) 01:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

To be more specific: according to your section, According to Tice, claims that he had psychological problems are "bunk" and that 'that's the way the NSA deals with troublemakers and whistleblowers. This is very weak, because it makes us wonder if he's telling the truth or not. Are there third parties who say (in context of his case, to avoid "synth" objections) that this is in fact the case? More generally, that draft doesn't even really make it clear why he's a 'whistleblower'! I mean, it's not really already counted as whistleblowing in official circles in the U.S. to report a Chinese spy ... is it? Wnt (talk) 01:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I would love to have the time to really devote to his article. I knew very little about him prior to these edits, but I knew that a wikilinked "psychosis" in the first para, especially after following the linked article, was a gross misuse of the source, a wildly inaccurate portrayal of the (interesting) story, and a prime example of a smear on a living person. Simply removing that edit, though it reverted to a version that was less informative, was an improvement overall per NPOV, et cetera. I used up a few days' worth of Wikipeida-time researching this man and trying to find all I could on him (not, mind you, with a focus on refuting the NSA's argument, but just to tell the story as it is told in RS). I kept my focus pretty narrow, and stuck to the story of his firing. The placement at bottom I won't defend, except to say that it seemed awkward anywhere else. As I argue on his talk page, the story does need its own section. Bdell555 has insisted upon weaving it into his bio according to a timeline, which to me is sloppy and again not in alignment with RS, which when any aspect of this is mentioned, discuss it in full. I should have stuck around to give the entire article some structure. There is no mention of this man being born and raised, for instance. But I don't have time to do this, and that's the truth. I asked for help at the talk and at BLP noticeboard. I received none, except that Rybec removed the link to "conspiracy theorist" which was added by Bdell555, I believe. So this was the best I could do. Take a look at the edit history. Prior to the one I showed, you will find a diff where I added a quotation from a third party, Sibel Edmonds, from the very source Bdell555 had brought to the article. He then argued here that she was a truther and couldn't be quoted. So in this section, I played it very safe because everything I was doing was being reverted. People are being smeared on Wikipedia in the open, and no one is doing anything about it. A project may have been sidetracked in some ways by this, and that is hard to swallow. The Snowden article has been completely peaceful until around the time we started talking about TDWFB. Welcome to Wikpedia (and the world), though, huh? petrarchan47tc 03:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

@HectorMoffet: some points for you to consider.

• To begin with, this DYK response, though infuriating, is not actually surprising to me. I knew that there was something off about the DYK process from my very first comment about the idea, "fishing in the contentious waters off Gibraltar", and this collision was the expected outcome, though not the one I'd hoped for. Before this, people imagined the DYK process was as neutral as I said it should be; now we realize that some people in power are choosing what causes it is OK to feature. Wikipedia has failed to consider the theory of a good, fair DYK process, and that is a problem. As I said in the debate, the clearest issue going forward is religion. DYK has accepted a "Special Day" for the elevation of cardinals of the Catholic Church. It is time now to hunt around among Old Catholic Church, American Catholic Church, Liberal Catholic Church, Universal Catholic Church and find comparable events for which a "Special Day" of DYKs might be requested. (An initial search, leading to [4], is a bit less than satisfactory, but proof of principle) If DYK refuses a Special Day, they can and should be keelhauled for religious discrimination; but if they accept it, then it is clear that Special Days need not be "widely recognized" and the regime will be further exposed and isolated. (Doubtless some wag will say that violates "WP:POINT", but what part of creating articles or fighting religious bias on the Main Page constitutes disruption?)
• Now let's remember also: you have succeeded in all but the most trivial detail. TDWFB was announced as a "month of activism culminating in" February 11, and the early run means that your DYKs go out in that month. At least they do go out, people do read them, regardless of the day, and maybe they will join the new WikiProject. The NSA isn't going away soon, so there's no need to focus so much on one day.
• In general, these things with global surveillance carry the heavy pall of an apocalypse, and no small one at that; it seems as if we must either go out with the destruction of all rights and the subjugation of all people, or with the acceptance of all humanity with all its foibles and everything it has to say. But this is not the first generation to make that choice, and several preceding ones have not failed in the end. It is not in our nature to be holy men, but as things progress we are forced either to go in that direction, or in the other. So it is going to be very important to try to find faith, and to try not to give into frustration.
• Some reflection on Daoist philosophy is also in order. The most forceful action (trying to change all policy and take over the main page) is the least effective. The least forceful action (steady, thoughtful editing about what you find interesting) may be the most effective. Wikipedia is most effective when it is most unpredictable^[5] -- perhaps even when we are not even sure ourselves what we are trying to achieve.
• That said, I don't mean to underestimate the value of your effort; the appearance of great writers ... [who take a solid and persistent interest that troubles us] ... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive. You can donate money to Wikipedia and have them spend dollar for dollar in combat with these folks, or accomplish the same for free at the cost of nothing but ... frustration. Just because Wikipedia pays nothing doesn't mean it costs nothing for somebody with the opposite agenda and little general public support. There have been idiots who have gone down to protests to smash shop windows who may have inflicted less financial expense, and that at random. Remember, the whole point of opposing an adversary who is out to deny your rights is that simply by doing things that are fully within your rights you are causing them grief.

Wnt (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

First off I want to say that I like everything you wrote in bullets 1-4. However, regarding bullet 5, as the heavy editor of ALEC and the one who notes on my userpage that my views don't represent those of my employer, it's clear that you're referring to me (despite the fact that I've hardly edited at Wiki-PR). I find your semi-veiled accusation of paid COI extremely ignorant, offensive, and uncivil. I demand that you review my edit history, retract your accusation, and apologize. It's downright wiki-libel. I've consistently taken a hard line against paid COI editing, not only stating on multiple occasions that at a minimum editors should be banned outright for not disclosing paid COIs, but also actually taking a couple of editors to WP:COIN for undisclosed paid COI editing. One of them eventually got site banned. The other was (I believe) a paid shill for, of all organizations, ALEC. While she was actively editing I consistently battled to keep reliably sourced material that happened to be bad publicity for ALEC, and remove promotional material. This is all easily verifiable, just skim through this for example... so for you, a veteran editor, to be making accusations that are so blatantly the exact opposite of reality is really just... astounding. And what I have to do with the TDWFB DYK is beyond me; I've watched it with interest, but I've never even commented on it. Really, I'm dumbfounded. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

And I suspect Capitalismojo (another active contributor at ALEC) will laugh at loud at your ridiculous accusation. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Heh, well it's more of a snort and a chuckle than laughing out loud. Good humor. Thanks for pinging me. Dr.F may be many things, but having a COI with ALEC is the least likely one I can imagine. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Note that I made no accusation, nor did I suggest how anyone stands on those topics, and indeed I don't know. You aren't the only person I had in mind when I made that comment, anyway. The way you keep materializing - here in response to a conversation with one other editor, at Restore the Fourth right after I reverted a removal by a different editor, and your persistent removals at The Day We Fight Back do make me suspicious. In any case, as I did not name you let alone accuse you, and as I do expect the pro-surveillance side to take some kind of action at some point, there's nothing to retract here. Wnt (talk) 20:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't read like a retraction or an apology. Please tell me exactly whom you were referring to. Now, before I request administrator attention. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to be like that, surely it won't do any good to bring anyone else's name into this. Wnt (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree, it wouldn't, since there's no one else whose name might be brought in. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Nonetheless, to avoid further distraction, I'll remove the very general description there, because it doesn't really say anything and therefore not really very interesting. Wnt (talk) 20:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

You're getting warmer, but that doesn't read like a retraction or an apology either. More like a whitewash. Hurry along, now. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Feb 8

What do you about a hook: DYK ... The government of China has installed over 20 million surveillance cameras across the nation?
I've stepped on enough wasp nests for one lifetime, but it's a suggestion you can nominate if you feel it has merit. --HectorMoffet (talk) 16:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like a good hook (I haven't checked the article, I'm in the middle of one for PCLOB), but you shouldn't be like that. There are editors who put out hundreds of these DYKs. With Wikipedia it's often more useful to focus on what you can do than what you can't, and they haven't banned you from putting them in. Wnt (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

That said, I did nominate it. Wnt (talk) 19:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

check your email, but basically, but the noinclude thing was a templating problem where passed articles go invisible on dykn.

I think it unlikely that anything special will happen on feb 11, but I will stick around to preserve the option, i.e. make sure holds are held. If, on Feb 10, our board issues a unanimous statement calling on our community to do something special on Feb 11 and an overwhelming majority endorses the plan, then they'll have that option.

Is that gonna happen? probably not. But do I feel that I deserve the same respect on hold dates as any other editor, yes, passionately. They can schedule none for feb 11, one at a time thereafter, or not use them at all. --HectorMoffet (talk) 04:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

You need to be watching Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3 and Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4 if you don't want them to run your content ahead of time so it will be unavailable for use. HectorMoffet (talk) 04:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

@HectorMoffet: you're getting bogged down on the smallest points. The main thing is to have an article, and make it a good one. A detail is to have a DYK. When that DYK runs is a detail of a detail, and whether it runs on the 10 or the 11th is the smallest detail of a detail. Even the event organizers called for a month of action, not a day of action, and I suspect this detail has subtly cascaded through to our present situation. Had there been one day of activism on the anniversary of Swartz's death, we would have had an easier time getting a special event recognized. Now to be sure, I have and will protest the centralized power and bias inherent in having a few people controlling whether an event can be recognized, but I don't want editors "semi-retired" or worse over this. It's not worth it. What's worth it is the work you put in getting all those articles written. I've had DYKs before -- they get thousands of pageviews, sure, but not that many thousands. I couldn't even tell you whether the impact of running a whole batch of DYKs on a topic is outweighed by fatigue and chance - whether it would be better to let people interested in spying have day after day to click on just one. So please -- focus on the central aspect. We have hundreds of redlinks that can be turned into useful information for all those who read future news stories and political editorials - stories we ought not predict - and need to know the real story behind the news, not just a one-sentence platitude by some talking head. I hope you will realize that this issue doesn't end on the 11th, nor is it the only issue; the real issue of all Wikipedia is knowledge and the right of the people to have it all. Wnt (talk) 05:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Surveillance awareness day

Hello, Wnt. Despite our disagreement, I respect your efforts to improve Wikipedia and genuinely aim to be helpful.

I attempted to build upon your rewording/reformatting in the hope of explaining the endeavor's background and current status as clearly and impartially as possible. HectorMoffet reverted, noting only that my "changes are without consensus".

In response to a message that he left on my talk page, I've requested that he explain his objections. If you have any thoughts on the matter (including constructive criticism or suggestions), I'd sincerely appreciate your input. Thanks in advance. —David Levy 04:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Wnt. You have new messages at David Levy's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

—David Levy 07:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I could use your help

Hey Wnt, I could use your support in convincing people Category:Slave owner is valid, User:Ryulong is reverting my most recent edits, nothing scientific but the slave owner category is an important listing to see the list of slave owners. No one is questioning Jabba the Hutt and the other fictional slave owners I listed, but apparently George Washington being a slave owner is being questioned. I did not know if their were pages for proposing categories or for reporting wikihounding, I've gone a couple of places though, reference desk, jimbowales, ANI board. I also added a couple bioremediating organisms recently wondered about nano particulate from prosthetic titanium implants. I'm also trying to add a ridiculous and sadly accurate amount of terrorist categories as unlike any other crime the definition is limited to each country. CensoredScribe (talk) 06:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Stop Watching Us

Another draft approaches publication, but I want make sure our hooks comply with the rules.

What do you think of this DYK:

• .... that Stop Watching Us, a protest against mass surveillance, was supported by Daniel Ellsberg, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Lawrence Lessig, Wil Wheaton, and others?

pls rewrite if you can improve it or don't think it would make a good hook. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:55, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

As you know, your approach was the correct one

There are about 8 articles now at DYK, but I depend on you to find the best wording for them and make sure they meet our standards. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your help at ANI; Ryulong is still reverting everything I do

I'm not sure if this will carry over to anything outside of anime and science fiction; either way I'm not breaking any restrictions. I have not yet evven suggested Category:Time travelers. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, you're getting a lot of unfavorable feedback. I don't think the process should hit you with an expanded topic ban, but it's looking like a matter of time, and time may be up. I'd recommend you just avoid categorizing stuff even if it's not a formal ban, until you've done some other editing. The Wikipedia category system is hopelessly outdated and ineffective anyway - it's not really worth that much effort until somebody upgrades the code. Wnt (talk) 16:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice Wnt; I will take it and stop adding categories; they are pretty seriously broken if it takes that long to delete them and there is that little consensus about what elements are defining in a given work. I thought only the biographies of living famous people would be more reverted than medical articles; however I think fiction edits may be more frequently reverted than medicine articles as well. I'm trying to look for something which shows the pages most reverted but only recently; I figure George W Bush may have the long term record but is probably not always the most consistently reverted page. I figure it would show useful trends in what people are arguing about like the top 5000 popular pages. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:59, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

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re The ALA RFC

I'll leave the timing on when to start up to you.

I'd suggest that when you do, you post neutrally-worded-notices to central locations including WP:Village pump, WP:CENT, and other places.

Btw, quick query, is the Internet Archive a member of the American Library Association?

Are there other associates that Internet Archive is already a member of, that might be helpful for Wikipedia to join, as well?

— Cirt (talk) 06:27, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Outstanding suggestion! It is indeed - see [6] for precisely the logo and text I had in mind (though I was thinking smaller). That's the only organization I see listed there, but I haven't researched it further yet. Wnt (talk) 06:51, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

re Library Bill of Rights

Regarding Library Bill of Rights, I strongly agree! — Cirt (talk) 21:05, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

@Cirt: - but do you agree that it is best to keep it separate from the RFC, or should I try to fold it in as proposal #3? I'm not sure if it makes sense to mix a proposal to ask for membership with an independent idea that would affect policy. Wnt (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

It should be separate. — Cirt (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, that's what I thought. Wnt (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Farewell, and thank you

Hey Wnt! Thanks for all your help in the last month. It's been great working with you. It was always a long shot that we would do something "special"-- as it should be, and I'm not at all disappointed that a controversial idea wasn't adopted. I had a lot of fun working on it.

Unfortunately, I found out some things about how parts of Wikipedia are run, and they just don't sit with me. I spent two years without really looking at mainpage, and I probably could have happy spent two years more without looking. If you like sausage, don't watch how the sausage is made, I suppose.

Please look after WP:SAD-- last I saw they was edit-warring still, two weeks after it was abandoned. A1candidate has promised to mediate if problems recur.

But I couldn't leave without saying goodbye and thanks for all your hard work! If you ever get bored with with this place, come over to scholarpedia-- all the joy of editing Wikipedia with any of the drama of editing Wikipedia. --HectorMoffet (talk) 01:58, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

@HectorMoffet: dammit, don't be like this. I mean, to take an event Wikipedia is pushing ... you look at these odd people who go off to the Olympics, they spend years of their lives training for something like pushing stones around on ice or sledding down a track. In one of the few bits I watched, some speed skater got sent home, try again in four years, because after the starter took too long to fire his "gun", she supposedly flinched her arm a little bit while waiting. People doing these pointless tasks nonetheless keep getting back up, having some Frankenstein try to piece their knees back together or whatever, and go on to get tripped or sick or "bobble" a step all over again. If people who want to get the truth out about things like government surveillance, like you, want to win, they're going to have to try to have a little more of that kind of weird determination, a little less oh it ran on the wrong day I have to give up. Why is it anyway that we spend all our determination on the most trivial and worthless and outright wrong and misery-making things, and so little of it on the things that can be of benefit?

Don't be bashful about un-resigning when you're ready. It's really really common. People get fed up, they throw in the towel, then they change their mind in anything (even the Olympics I suppose) and just because there's an edit history to look at here doesn't make it any different. Wnt (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

ALA RFC

What's the latest update on this, how's it going so far? And where was that link again? :P — Cirt (talk) 02:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, the idea is at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Should Wikipedia ask WMF to join the American Library Association on its behalf? The problem I have is simply that, going over [7] and [8], I just haven't made my case well enough. I just don't know enough about the organization and what it can do beyond my narrow areas of interest, and while they have tons of information online, I haven't really gone through much of it as of yet. Above all, I'd rather hoped that whatever his position on certain related issues, Jimbo Wales would personally weigh in in favor of the idea since it is the logical affiliation to fight SOPA and NSA surveillance and the like. I want to have more confidence about the success of the idea before I take it to a large-scale vote. Wnt (talk) 03:42, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Understood, please keep me posted, — Cirt (talk) 00:05, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board report on mass surveillance

Hello! Your submission of Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board report on mass surveillance at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 01:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Navboxes and search

Hi! I saw this comment you left about navboxes. I have some ideas about how to address this problem, and it would help me if you could provide some links to search queries that demonstrate the problem. Thanks, Bovlb (talk) 18:27, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I'm actually having difficulty reproducing the problem now! Unfortunately, the actual history for when I first ran into this problem doing a search like this, which is I think the better part of a year ago, was lost to a disk crash. But I'm pretty sure I saw this when I simply typed in a search for "revolution 9" "rubber soul". I definitely remember getting lots and lots of Wikipedia spammage on a search like that, and now I'm not seeing anything. It's possible that Google fixed the trouble on their end in the meanwhile, or ... something else happened. Wnt (talk) 22:52, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

OK. There are a few different ways that I know of to mark a section of a page as not for indexing. We could usefully add a couple of them to the navbar template, but I'd prefer to have evidence of the problem before making the proposal. Cheers, Bovlb (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board report on mass surveillance

Thanks for your help Victuallers (talk) 23:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

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March 2014

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Jimbo's talk page

Jimbo is taking up your suggestion. User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 158#Proposal from Wnt. --Pine^✉ 23:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

GREAT! Wnt (talk) 23:35, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

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Stop Watching Us waiting on your consent

Some time ago the three other active participants in the discussion at Talk:Stop Watching Us reached a consensus, but since you were the most active opposition to the idea, wanted to wait for you to weigh in. It's been quite a while now and you haven't weighed in. Would you mind popping over there and giving your $0.02 so that we can make the relevant changes or not?

P.S. You really need to archive your talk page, jeez! 0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 18:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I thought I expressed my feelings well enough before. I don't see anything in that conversation that is "dangling" awaiting some answer, and it's just not very appealing to edit an article that keeps losing content. Wnt (talk) 04:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Suicides

Hi I noticed on the Jimbo Wales talk page back in February, regarding a then 'recent' suicide, some suggestion by you that certain things may have been subsequently wiped from their page. I agree with your point about that making it harder to "identify and fix the social phenomena specifically involved in things like this". I'm also unsure why in the discussions there seems to be such avoidance of giving the username, as seems to be given regularly in other cases. I don't seem to have your sleuthing skills to find it myself, assuming it wasn't as long ago as User:AaronSw. Did you confirm any of this by any chance? Sighola2 (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't find anything in the page history that expressed a sentiment that should have warned anyone something like this would happen - I don't know if it was removed or not. But ever since the discussion has been raised, Wikipedians have been attacking one another like mad, with little rhyme or reason, with one casualty after another being called out by administrators or resigning in disgust - the current contention on Jimbo's talk page traces directly back to it. Because of this ongoing trouble, despite my usual inclination, I'd prefer to avoid answering this one, except to say that if you look at talk pages for people originally in the conversation, you should find it. With so many options for retroactively making conversations go away around here, it's a lot easier to search out the name than to figure out what actually happened. Wnt (talk) 00:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It did seem to be definitely stated that he put up then hatted a mental health template didn't it, so I am troubled if that has been wiped away (such a user doesn't seem to show up from 'what links here' at that mh template). I had tried following your route to the name via the prior commenters and tried again but just can't find any mentioned - guess I'm missing something or perhaps they've been wiped too?? I understand if you don't feel able to indicate further, though I'm not aware of where the ongoing trouble is now that the Eric-vs-admin and template-delete stuff seems to be over. Thanks, Sighola2 (talk) 02:41, 12 March 2014 (UTC) p.s. oh unless it could potentially include what I'm involved in regarding wp-is-not-therapy essay which was linked from that same mh template. Sighola2 (talk) 03:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

No, nothing was wiped away. It is still there, I've just checked. It is one of these cases, when an editor asked to be heard and understood, but nobody noticed, because as Wnt correctly noticed "Wikipedians have been attacking one another like mad, with little rhyme or reason". They are busy with attacking each others, not being kind and understanding to each other. That so called Wikipedia community is very sick, and in most situations not because of editors with mental health issues, but because of those psychotic, sadistic bullies who call themselves "the Wikipedia community".71.202.123.2 (talk) 04:56, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Mass surveillance in China

The DYK project (nominate) 02:08, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Hey

Would very much appreciate your comment at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Polyethylene_Glycol. Blessings. Ben-Natan (talk) 01:41, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

barnstar awarded for you

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For your improving work at Syed Ali Shah Geelani - good work Wnt - Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:41, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Stop Watching Us

Wnt, since Hector isn't around any more and you've been shepherding some of his DYK submissions through the process, I thought I'd let you know that this nomination has some issues that need to be addressed. Is this something you're willing to take on? If so, please respond on the nomination template. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:39, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. Wnt (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks for the numbers.

Aside from being a very good post, it was informatively posted at 4:11 and self-contains 1,408 bytes. Cosmic. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:22, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

CensoredScribe has been blocked indefinitely

You've helped my friend a lot already; but if you are willing to help for what is likely the last time, please contact Drmies Vsmith LadyofShallot and Jmh649. CS wanted me to tell you and those others thank you for your support and to say thanks in general for writing the worlds largest and most read encyclopedia. The only thing they had left to do was finish adding the references from Lives of the Necromancers; they stopped at Pythagoras. Not sure how many users get brought back after being blocked; good bye. 128.138.108.181 (talk) 18:31, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think it can help at this point. By the time an editor is hit with a topic ban he's already pretty much on the way out - the admins and any enemies he's accumulated will just stay on him relentlessly looking for ever smaller offenses even as his exasperation grows. Given his interest in fiction there are lots of other specific wikis he could start on fresh that do a better job covering it (I'm thinking of http://www.supernaturalwiki.com, for example); or he could lend a hand in getting http://www.deletionpedia.org or http://www.speedydeletion.wikia.com up to speed; or he could even get serious and go for www.scholarpedia.org, www.openwetware.org, etc. which is actually much more respectable than WP. There are also exciting political wikis - I'm not sure if http://www.echelon2.org/ is going to be open to contributors again, but _that_ is an example of a little wiki that cast a long shadow. There are many others. He needs to find a successful base of operations instead of trying to hang on by a thread here. He would also benefit by focusing more on skills than accomplishments - learn how to program Javascript, PHP, Lua, learn how to run bots, learn to set up his own sites. When years have passed and he's forgotten all about his interest in Wikipedia categories, then he can try starting from scratch here if he wants, if he's prepared to stay absolutely mum about his prior account name and have no interaction with it... but he seems too readily tempted to make that work. Wnt (talk) 21:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

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re Another essay attempt...

This may not go well, but I thought I might as well try writing up WP:Internet Employees' Bill of Rights as a general idea, expressing some statements that I've made in recent cases, and in response to the absolutely appalling precedent of Brendan Eich being forced to resign from Mozilla (no, I'm not a section 8 fan, but to me that just isn't the point). Do you think anything good can come of it? Wnt (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Your idea is a sound one, but I'll respectfully defer to you for your editorial judgment about its contents. Please do keep me posted when it's more of a complete work, and I'll take another look. — Cirt (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of FISA Improvements Act

Hello! Your submission of FISA Improvements Act at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 17:22, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

DYK for FISA Improvements Act

Thanks from → Call me Hahc21) 16:03, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

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Templates and "What links here"

Hello, Wnt. I seem to remember a discussion where someone, and I think it was you, pointed out how adding topic templates to the bottom of multiple pages affected the "What links here" function by greatly inflating the number of articles linking to a topic, sometimes articles that are only marginally related to the one they link to and wouldn't mention it in the text itself. Do you know whether this has been discussed anywhere, or whether there are ways to make the WLH function ignore links in those templates? (Apologies if I'm mistaken and it wasn't you). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't realize we had a Help talk:What links here discussing this very topic. (Though of course I should have; Wikipedia not only HAAOE, but also ADiscussionOE. Sorry for the distraction and have a nice week :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 19:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This message will self destruct in...

This is supposed to be under the modern India section of the India article. New users can't undo or edit that article. "India has the most slaves of any country at 14 million; over 1% of the total population." Here's the bare url. http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/millions-in-modernday-slavery-half-in-india-survey/article5243964.ece

Looks like a good idea, so I made an edit. [9] Wnt (talk) 12:21, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

One last thing; should you choose to accept it. This was on the page for free will but is not mentioned on the page for schizophrenia; when it's allegedly one of the key diagnostic criteria.

Similarly, one of the most important ("first rank") diagnostic symptoms of schizophrenia is the delusion of being controlled by an external force. People with schizophrenia will sometimes report that, although they are acting in the world, they did not initiate, or will, the particular actions they performed. This is sometimes likened to being a robot controlled by someone else. Although the neural mechanisms of schizophrenia are not yet clear, one influential hypothesis is that there is a breakdown in brain systems that compare motor commands with the feedback received from the body (known as proprioception), leading to attendant hallucinations and delusions of control.

This tape will self-destruct in five seconds. Thank you and good luck :)

The first bit is in there - the rest I should look up, but it may be a few days until I get to it. Wnt (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

This isn't part of an official Japanese policy on population control; the Japanese government is actually trying to have more births not less. However I added a section for Japans birth rate dropping by 25% in certain years do to the influence of Chinese astrology; I didn't think all forms of population control had to be officially ordered by the government in order to count.

In Japan, a strong belief in astrology has led to dramatic changes in the fertility rate and the number of abortions in the years of "Fire Horse". Women born in hinoeuma years are believed to be unmarriageable and to bring bad luck to their father or husband. In 1966, the number of babies born in Japan dropped by over 25% as parents tried to avoid the stigma of having a daughter born in the hinoeuma year.

Did you notice

Hi Wnt: In looking at the "Wikipedia" Page, there is someone that deleted your Ashburn edit, did you notice. FelixRosch (talk) 18:47, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. The problem is, they might have something of a point about relevance, and at least they left the part that it was in Ashburn. Still, yeah, the level V security and data center alley should be reintroduced. Maybe there's a way I can improve the sourcing to make it look less like "synthesis". Wnt (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and if you could add any further "planning information" it might help as well. For example, "The new site is expected to meet Wikipedia needs until MMDDYY", or, "It is expandable up to MMDDYY or indefinitely". Historically, it was also funded by a Google grant from a few years ago and designed for the purpose of enhancing system-wide reliability, which if you can document, might make the edit work. FelixRosch (talk) 17:02, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

May I ask; and have answer?

Hello Wnt. Because I have seen numerous discussions where you have commented; gleaning a wide breadth of intellect, I'll skip the part about "they know not what they do", and; directly ask: why have you raised a straw man against me on Jimbo's talk page? I've only ever known you to be a "straight shooter". Yet, for some reason, the first time I would ever see you deviate that straight course, happens to be when answering a concern raised by me. I can't help but wonder why?—John Cline (talk) 12:08, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

As I explained there, I don't see it as a straw man. I had used the same example previously, and Jimbo had made an "all the way" comment that didn't even seem opposed to the idea. A corporation and a military unit seem very similar, and to be fair, the allegations against the Chinese military unit that they massacred (at that time the article said) 10,000 people were both poorly founded and extremely prejudicial. I prefer to try to line up policies between different areas, which means that on one hand we should avoid giving too much credibility to sensationalistic figures, while not imposing a systematic bias on the other. Wnt (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Russell Targ

FYI the item you added to the list of journal articles on the Russell Targ article was not a journal article. It is already in the references also. There was one article (Targ & Puthoff, 1974) published in nature and a series of comments, letters and matters arising peices discussing the actual article. There is are two sections of discussion on the talk page discussing what papers should be in the list. If you want to add to the list please weigh in at the discussion Talk:Russell Targ#WP:UNDUE and list of works. Thanks for your contributions to WP and happy editing. - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:14, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. I thought someone had caught it up by accident with the others, but true, it's just a matter arising. Wnt (talk) 13:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Arbitration amendment request(Fae)

An arbitration amendment request(Fae), to which you contributed, resulted in a motion.

The original discussion can be found here. For the arbitration committee --S Philbrick(Talk) 16:09, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

[re Russell Targ ]

Bobby Fischer: if you want info about my relationship with Bobby Fischer, you can look at "A psycho-biography of Bobby Fischer," By Joe Pontorotto. It has a sweet 1961 photo of 18 year old Bobby, his sister, me and baby Elisabeth at my home in NYC. I am not contributing any family photos to this bio page until Wikipedia decides to treat me with a little respect, rather than mockery and derision. You are able to hide in the dark of the aether and amusingly call yourselves red-balls and blue-balls, and write any mocking insults that come to mind regarding me or my work. So you feel that you get to sit around and decide what kind of relationship I had with my brother-in-law. How absurd is that? And I have no recourse. Don't you guys have any sense of decency? SILVER: I published a paper describing our success with silver. There is an article in the WSJ, and there is a BBC documentary interviewing by broker. What do you want? You publish all kinds of BS from the notorious James Randi. But my published data is no good. Cheers, Torgownik (talk) 04:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)Russell

@Torgownik: Well, don't blame me for what those other people did; so far as I know I have not mocked or derided you, and try to be open minded, though there are some things I may not easily be convinced of. The problem with a book photo is that Wikipedia needs a free licensed photo and only includes copyrighted photos in some really narrow cases. I think you have suggested some good sources there and I hope to see you get fairer consideration in your article. Wnt (talk) 06:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I have no interest in providing any photos of Bobby or my family to be held up to further "pseudo-unscientific" ridicule. Do people remember that in the big AIR report published for the CIA, in 1995 the president of the American Statistical Assn., Prof. Jessica Utts said that the remote viewing work at SRI was comparable in statistical significance to any other research on "weak to medium strength" phenomena,such as aspirin for prevention of heart attacks. She points out the our average "effect size" over a decade of work, is ten times greater than the effect size for aspirin preventing heart attacks. Why do you guys prefer to align with Randi the amazing, and the lifelong skeptic Ray Hyman instead of Prof. Utts? Just for a change of pace, could you please take a look at the four examples of remote viewing we did for the government on my website, www.espresearch.com. You might actually find it interesting. Torgownik (talk) 07:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)Russell Targ

I am pretty near certain that no, as Wikipedia editors we do not remember that - certainly I'm no where close to knowing things like that offhand. Some of the problem here is that you're assuming the articles are edited by experts but they're really not. The same people edit articles about anything from airplane crashes to medieval history. This is both the cause and the effect of Wikipedia rules like the one against "WP:original research/WP:original synthesis". Wikipedia is more an assembly line than a mechanic's workshop. The problem is, some people have learned a strong contempt for all speculative topics - rooted, to be sure, in no small number of real examples of deceit with such things, but still an overly broad blanket response - and aren't playing by the rules. Wnt (talk) 13:34, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

FAIRNESS: OK. I understand. I am in jail, begging the guards for crumbs. ii is clear that you have to power to slime my bio page any way you wish. If I don't like I get ignored banned. Let me repeat what I consider the beginning of fairness or truth. OTHER OPINIONS: If you Wikipedia editors have any tiny spark of integrity, you should include the following, which is the other half of the famous CIA sponsored AIR report, which I am sure you all know about. Jessica Utts is a statistics Professor at the University of California, Irvine, and is president of the American Statistical Association. In writing for her part of a 1995 evaluation of our work for the CIA in the AIR report, she wrote: “Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted.… Remote viewing has been conceptually replicated across a number of laboratories, by various experimenters, and in different cultures. This is a robust effect that, were it not such an unusual domain, would no longer be questioned by science as a real phenomenon. It is unlikely that methodological flaws could account for its remarkable consistency.” I will be looking for some part of this to appear on my bio page. If not, I will just assume that you have no interest at all in presenting the truth. It is not the truth that "science" considers remote viewing to be pseudoscience. You can start with the president of the American Statistics Assn. Torgownik (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)Russell <russ at targ.co>

Trust me, we're not guards - Wikipedia is frustrating for everyone. I haven't moved very quickly on your article; I look in on Wikipedia now and then as I have a chance or my mind wanders, and I was hoping for signs that the discussion was turning. I think though that the tide is turning now, because your article is not the way that most here like to see biographies treated. I'll look into the report you mention (be assured we don't all know about anything). Wnt (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Isotretinoin

I don't know how this ping thing works or if you got my message. But I reacted a little emotionally to you your notes on the ANI and Isotretinoin Talk page, please take the emotional content of my notes and divide by 3. I did not mean to be offensive (or if I did, I regret it now :>))Formerly 98 (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

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On your Trivia Questions

Not to nitpick but the IRA per se did not exist until January 1919. Thus none of your multiple choices are correct and I suspect that the answer might well be Tipperary. If, on the other hand, one accepted equating the IRA with earlier Irish nationalist organizations, one might well be able to go back as far as 1798 if not earlier. Juan Riley (talk) 16:02, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the article used to say that the organization conducting the Fenian raids was literally called the Irish Republican Army. It still does say that, in passing, in the Fenian raids article in the title of the inspector-general of it. I understand that (as with many such organizations) there could be different organizations with the same name - not to equate the two, but the first example that pops to mind is the Ku Klux Klan, which has been repeatedly refounded from scratch, yet often is thought of as the same group anyway. Wnt (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• One should not use big letters, e.g., a particular organization like the IRA, to mean small letters, e.g., a militia of Irish men and women with republican sentiments. As noted above, none of your multiple choices are correct whichever vague choice you make. Juan Riley (talk) 21:52, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Fortunately I don't have to edit war with you about this, but do be assured that other sources use "IRA" to refer to this. [10] The phrase "Irish Republican Army" appears in the 1910 s:Troublous Times in Canada: A History of the Fenian Raids of 1866 and 1870. It is worth noting the parent (?) organization was sometimes called the Irish Republican Brotherhood. I haven't fully explored the various references in the literature, but I'm reasonably convinced that this conflict from the United States was at least something of an inspiration to those who ultimately formally declared the IRA, and that the identical phrase being used was no coincidence. Wnt (talk) 23:22, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting comment

You state here [11] "Rather, it is well known that Wiki Med, Inc., one of the resources linked from WP:MED, has external funding sources". As the president of WPMEDF I have not heard of any of these external funding sources. In fact the organization has never raised or been given any money and does not even have a bank account. An organization we are partnering with, Translators Without Borders did receive $12,000 from the Indigo foundation to develop their translation center in Kenya to work on our project but other than that all work by all involved is as volunteers. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I will note your response. I had the impression from reading over the initial proposed bylaws and conversations like [12] that the organization was going to be receiving outside funding routinely, and I did interpret some other comments in this light. I do welcome this statement of independence. Wnt (talk) 05:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

We would not ever accept finances from an organization that does not share our goals. Such organizations would include the pharmaceutical industry. We would accept funding from organizations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Current though none has been offered and we are not really set up to handle it if it was. We have mainly provided advice to like minded organizations like Cancer Research UK, the NIH and Cochrane collaboration. We have also done some collaboration between language communities such as Persian and Italian. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:46, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Press mention

See http://www.dailydot.com/news/wikipedia-traking-information-how-long/ Best, Andreas JN466 23:12, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

As flattering as it may be to be quoted, I don't feel like that article adds enough value to the discussion. I should give you credit for finding the policy about dissemination of information (though it actually lacks any statement about when it is disseminated, only gives advice how to improve your odds). But overall, I think my forum post was a request for information, which Jimbo said he'd look into, and your article doesn't give any insight on what that response will be. By and large when a news article has a headline that ends in a question mark, it's not going to be that satisfying. Wnt (talk) 05:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

TALK PAGE: The talk page is worthless, if I receive no reply. Just the erasure of what I write. You are happy to denigrate my father, who was a most distinguished NY editor and publisher for fifty yeas. Why can't we include The Godfather among his other junky books? He actually created that book. Why can't we include the Wall Street Journal citation of my silver futures forecasting, instead of saying that there is no citation? And what's wrong with including Jessica Utts saying that the work at Stanford was done correctly? Such editing gives Wikipedia a terrible reputation, even among people who are not ESP enthusiasts. Such obviously biased writing is anti science. Torgownik (talk) 21:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)Russell

@Torgownik: Did you post this in the wrong place? I'm the one who added the mention of The Godfather, and also support the Wall Street Journal reference. The Utts reference I'm not totally sure about - last I looked the current version didn't mention the AIR report, and since it was an evaluation of the program in 1995 under a different agency, I can sort of see leaving it out of your biography. Still, that's all wrong, I admit. I was hoping Tristessa would change something - I can make another try at it to register my opinion, but with the people they have lined up I can't really win at an edit war. Wnt (talk) 01:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Christopher Senyonjo

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:20, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Reference Errors on 7 June

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Obiwankenobi

Do you know that User:Obiwankenobi has edited from a POV agenda, on the subject of his employer, without disclosing his affiliation? One might say those types of users are exactly the sort who should have some of their online privacy exposed, when they are actively trying to impugn the reputations of real-named people while hiding behind a pseudonym cloak. February 23, 2012, if you want the truth. - 2001:558:1400:10:DC33:3186:3BC3:3AEF (talk) 16:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The people at WO seem good at running administrative processes against people - nonetheless, he seems in good standing now and I'm certainly not going to initiate something against him. What I can do is to make minor modification to better detail the data he tried (but failed) to keep out of the article. There is some limit to what I can do there because so far I'm not getting the range of sourcing I would like to see. In any case it is a "punishment" commensurate and appropriate to the "crime", and what better way to punish than growing the encyclopedia? Wnt (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

rollback

Just revert my edits where I messed up your comments...I inadvertently rolled you back twice.--MONGO 19:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Did you know we

have a stub for Libby Weaver? I suggested a merge, meant to do that much earlier. Dougweller (talk) 18:24, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Re: this

See the AN request and more details on this talk page thread. I agree that the renumbering was clumsy, and looking back on it, it would've been better to move the "old" archive under Archive (old) or something similar than to jostle everything around as I did. Sorry for the mess! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014

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Media Viewer RfC case opened

You were recently recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Evidence. Please add your evidence by July 26, 2014, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. Before adding evidence please review the scope of the case. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Refdesk qn - colour of osmium

I did some further research on this, but still have a question. Any chance you might be able to answer it? (It's under the same header for July 17.) Double sharp (talk) 13:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Latest stage of submission to the Speaker's Commission on Digital Democracy

Hello there. I thought I would drop you a note as you kindly took part in the first stage of the efforts to crowdsource a submission to the Speaker's Commission on Digital Democracy. The second stage is now live and can be seen here. It would be great if you could help with putting together the submission on the second theme, which relates to representation. Also, if you have any suggestions on how we can widen participation, that would be very helpful. Thanks again for all of your help. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Bet you thought you'd never get a barnstar from me, did you?

		The Original Barnstar
		Someone has passed along to me in a email the following words attributed to you, which is one of the smartest and best things I have heard this year: "Wikipedia is an effort to partially roll back the idea that the poor should be deprived even of their right to learn, receiving only as much knowledge as they can scrape together the money to buy." — If you said it, take a bow; if you didn't say it, take the credit. My best wishes to you. Though we frequently disagree on specifics, sometimes bitterly, I am coming to believe we see alike on The Big Issues. best, —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 15:43, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

---

Heh. This is a welcome surprise! :) Wnt (talk) 16:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

A barstar for you

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		For answering my question on Refdesk and finally completing my long search! Keresaspa (talk) 02:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC draft principles & findings

Hello. This is a courtesy note that the draft findings and principles in the Media Viewer RfC case have now been posted. The drafters of the proposed decision anticipate a final version of the PD will be posted after 11 August. You are welcome to give feedback on the workshop page. For the Committee, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 02:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

[David Webb - moved from top]

At last someone is showing some common sense re David Webb. If you really want to set the cat among the pigeons you might ask why this scumbag is considered "notable". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satpal_Ram stabbing a diner to death in a restaurant. Over the years these idiots have deleted almost all my amendments to it. A Baron VennerRoad (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

@VennerRoad: I assume you must have been editing as IP back then; I'm not sure which additions were yours. I see one big deletion that is hard to contest - Wikipedia policy definitely isn't going to support painting someone as a murderer based on a GeoCities user site. And you can't possibly expect an edit like [13] to stand - that's the article, not the talk page. I should add that when you edited my talk page, you left your comment at the top instead of the bottom; if I were a little less careful I could have missed it and never responded, because the convention is to put them at the bottom. I want you to seriously consider that you simply haven't learned enough about how Wikipedia works -- how to source your facts and write things the way they should be written. To do that it would be helpful to do some practice editing about a topic that you don't have such strong feelings about, so that you can feel comfortable backing off from any arguments that might arise. Until then, please, don't go running around calling people idiots. You'll piss people off and sooner or later you're bound to land at "WP:AN/I", which is a cattle chute with only one final destination no matter how honest your feelings. Like anything else on a computer, it works better to learn how to work Wikipedia first and then get frustrated with it. Wnt (talk) 14:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

@VennerRoad: On further examination, I see the situation is sticker. I was looking for what happened to the GeoCities site and I see that it is defunct, but searching for "flick-knife" I found the same name "satpalramisguilty" now at: http://www.satpalramisguilty.20m.com/ . I was going to look around your site for usable sources, but going to the site index I was hit by an antivirus warning (at http://www.satpalramisguilty.20m.com/ram_site_index.html ) that a "JS-site-redirector [Trj]" had been found. So I haven't gone through that as of yet. In any case, when you start putting your own site into articles as a reference, especially when it's a self-published reference in a BLP, you're seriously going to run into trouble on Wikipedia. See WP:COI. For a change like that you should propose it on the talk page and get another editor to do it, only I'm afraid in this case they really won't. If you're looking for more site traffic this is not a good way - getting the virus warning off your page is! The only way to make this argument in the article is to cut through all your text to the original source news articles. The good news is that I think there is a lot of room to expand on the anti-Satpal Ram side of things, and if done right the overall balance of the article can be improved. Wnt (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

A Baron VennerRoad (talk) 14:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I wrote you a long reply and it has disappeared due to an edit conflict, so briefly...I set up the Ram site in 2001 to combat all the pernicious lies that have been spread about the case.

If you check old versions of the page you will find my corrections and the reverts they made. I didn't have an account then and don't know why I bother.

Everything about that case is lies, including the four citations at the bottom of the page now, lies.

I didn't brand Ram a murderer, the jury did that, and his conviction was held up twice on appeal and rejected by the CCRC.

The official documents on the site are far more reliable than left wing press reports, they include the Court Of Appeal transcripts.

Such is the bias of Wikipediots is that they have even removed my updates, like about Ram's recall to prison and his rearrest. He spent several more years in gaol.

These people are not interested in the truth.

Tell me by the way how this thug is "notable" while David Webb is not?

Thanks for your interest.

A Baron VennerRoad (talk) 14:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

You don't have to lose your work to an edit conflict! The edit conflict screen has a copy of your text in one of the windows; just follow the instructions. (Personally I find it easier to go back one page, copy my text from the usual edit window, press the section edit link from my history sidebar, and paste it in there, but whatever works for you) I hope this doesn't cause another edit conflict........ Wnt (talk) 14:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Another couple of points, you should not get a virus warning off the Ram site but you can use the Archived version if you want, on the Wayback Machine.

Also, I have been researching in the British Library since 1988 so I know how to do it and to get reliable sources and information.

The simple fact is that a lot of what is published about cases like that is simply lies, and it doesn't come simply from friends of people like Ram but from the likes of Amnesty International, Reprieve and other agenda-driven special interest groups.

A Baron VennerRoad (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)