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September 11

Mythological Inventors of Numbers

Can someone provide me with a list, or a reference to where there is a list, of inventors of numbers? To explain, in some older polytheistic religions, one particular god or goddess was considered to have been the inventor of numbers. In ancient Egypt, Egyptian numerals were said to have been invented by Thoth. Roman numerals were credited with having been invented by Minerva. Babylonian base-60 mathematics was credited with having been invented by Enki. Can someone provide me with names of other gods and goddesses in other mythologies who are said to have invented numbers? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

• In the past, letters and numbers were often conflated as runes, used for writing, numbers and magic:

Cadmon "created" the Greek alphabt, what we think of as pure letters were used for reckoning. Likewise

Väinämöinen the Finnish smith/magician and

Odin the Norse sage were credited with creating the runes.

Likewise the Irish sage-god, Ogma; Marduk, the Babylonian creator and divisor of the calendar:

Thank you. I'll go with Ogma. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Also Seshat, Saraswati, Tir, see List of knowledge deities for more. μηδείς (talk) 03:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

• God Created the Integers according to Kronecker. Or alternatively JHWH Conway according to the book Surreal Numbers which is about surreal numbers. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 07:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not just the Greek letters which are used as numbers. The Hebrew ones are as well. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 10:05, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Myers-Briggs question

Which of the Myers-Briggs types is the most likely to walk up to someone and start rambling about computers or math or Star Trek or Pokémon or astrophysics or whatever interest catches their fancy, without greeting someone or making small talk? Subliminable (talk) 10:23, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The rude type? DOR (HK) (talk) 10:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

They might be at a convention. In fact I can think of a number of situations where it could happen but I would in general classify someone as a bore if they only talk about what interests them without thinking about others. Don't know where that fis in some psychological classification. Dmcq (talk) 12:45, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

"Rude" and "bore" are not Myers-Briggs types. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 13:15, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

If someone did that in front of me, I would suspect Asperger (that is only based on my past interactions with Aspies, I don't have expertise), but I wouldn't think of a Myers-Briggs type.

But that raises an interesting separate question: do most Asperger patients end up in the same Myers-Briggs type? A google search on "Asperger Syndrome Myers-Briggs" returns several Asperger patient forums where people are saying they are INTP or INTJ. That is not a reference, but I thought it could be interesting. --Lgriot (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

• The answer is "We cannot answer because we cannot administer the Myers-Briggs test". The test is a specific set of 93 questions which must be taken and assessed to assign a Myers-Briggs type. Since you did not give us the answers to those 93 questions, rather just a single example of a single interaction you had with one person, there is literally no way anyone can help answer your question. Some people may attempt to bullshit their way into an answer, but unless the results of the test are available, those answers should be ignored. --Jayron32 14:19, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. This is something I've seen many people do over the course of my life, not an isolated encounter with one person. It's part of the nerd stereotype in the popular culture, as well. I want to know which of the 16 types most of these people fall into. Subliminable (talk) 14:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Fine. Then it is more than one person. Doesn't matter. Unless and until you give those people the Myers-Briggs self-assessment and then grade that assessment, you cannot assign them a Myers-Briggs type. --Jayron32 14:32, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The whole point of Meyers Brigs is that you're supposed to be able to use it to predict how people will act in various situations.

Imagine if the question asker had asked an equivialant, but more common question "Which M-B type will perform best at a particular job?", and Jayron responded like this. It'd be a joke.

(You could argue that M-B is mostly nonsense, but 1) You haven't so argued. and 2) The question could still be approuched theoretically as though M-B worked as advertised.) ApLundell (talk) 14:39, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The questioner didn't ask that question. If they had, they would get different answer. There's a big difference between guessing a person's MB type based on a single behavioral interaction and finding literature that assigns ideal jobs based on known MB types. One has known literature we can recommend for reading. The other is making wild-ass guesses based on nothing in particular. --Jayron32 14:55, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The questioner didn't ask for a person's MB type to be guessed. They asked for statistical information, not wild-ass guesses. It may well not exist, but there's no reason to chastise them for asking a different question than they did. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The OP was not that specific. But if you want to help instead of just criticizing, google "which myers-briggs personality types are rude" and see what you can find. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

So, because you said that, that means you have references to those statistics, and are refusing to share them with us because why? --Jayron32 14:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

To start with, MBTI is a very dubious instrument, as explained at the web page. Many other personality tests exist; personally I think the traditional Yi Jing system has more potential for this kind of analysis of possibilities. That said, according to [1] it is a highly proprietary scheme, with numerous trademarks and other restrictions being used to regulate just when-and-how-and-so it is used, with large entrance fees for practitioners. But that link suggests that open source competing schemes like International Personality Item Pool ([2]) and Open Extended Jungian Type Scales ([3]) can be used. Certainly if I were to start making predictions employing some sort of divination I would prefer it unencumbered by those claiming ownership of ideas. Wnt (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

• If I were to ignore all the disclaimers and caveats above, I'd say: fandom is mostly N, and the nerdy stereotype is NT; I can't get more specific than that. —Tamfang (talk) 06:57, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Scots' attitudes towards independence across the sectarian divide

In the Scottish independence referendum, 2014, was there any notable difference in voting patterns based on religion? Were Anglicans or members of the Church of Scotland less inclined (on average, obviously) to vote for Scottish Independence than Catholic Scots were? Did any pollsters ask questions of the religion of those being polled on the question of Scottish independence, to see if there was any correlation? Eliyohub (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

[4]. --Jayron32 14:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Picked from Jayron's link above, Tall Tales: Religion and Scottish Independence thinks not really: "...those modest differences we can find between Catholics and Church of Scotland identifiers in their attitudes towards independence are not due to Protestantism or Catholicism, nor to history, heritage, or religious politics. It springs largely from the simple fact that Presbyterians are, on average, older, and older people of all religious persuasions are more likely to be opposed to independence".

Anglicanism is not big in Scotland, Religion in Scotland gives the Scottish Episcopal Church a membership of 34,000 plus 67,000 who identified themselves as Church of England at the last census (added together less than 2% of the population). Alansplodge (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

My church was rather strongly against it (despite having a younger-than-average demographic), if I understand rightly, but as they're miniscule, they definitely didn't have a significant impact. Oddly, previous generations in the church had been fiercely opposed to the opposite action as well. I don't know whether other conservative dissenting churches had positions on the 2014 question, although they weren't around when the "opposite action" happened. Nyttend (talk) 01:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Tropical storms and hurricanes: codes and numbers

Please see this article (list): Tropical Storm Irma. What do all of those codes and numbers mean? For example, one storm on this list – Typhoon Irma (1985) – has a notation that reads "(T8506, 06W, Daling)". I have no idea what any of that means. Does anyone know? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:40, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The Growth number corresponding to this first name is 11. Aside from that, Daling's just a name, not a code. No clue about the numbers. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:45, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

My first thought for "06W" was "West", i.e. it travelled 6 degrees east-west. Consider these four storms:

• 1985, 06W
• 1978, 19W
• 1981, 26W
• 1974, 34W

As you go down the list, each one had a net east-west difference that's greater than the one above it. That got shattered, however, with the 1971 storm, 37W, which started and ended near the Philippines. Their starting locations aren't correlated with the numbers either (e.g. 1971 and 1985 both started vaguely near Guam), so the numbers definitely don't mean "degrees west of the antimeridian". Nyttend (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The numbers line up quite well with their chronological order in the typhoon seasons. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:59, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

The first name is assigned by Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC) in Hawaii. The second name was used when it was in "area of responsibility" of the Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration. Perhaps the number was assigned by the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA)? Rmhermen (talk) 01:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Maybe ask User:HERB, who added them back in 2009, who made some edits the other day, and who is even named after such a storm. PointyOintment (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I posted on his Talk Page. And I asked him to offer some input in this discussion. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I believe this is the 6th tropical depression of 1985 in the Western Pacific (I don't know if subtropical depressions count). Atlantic storms are called L (01L, 02L and so on), Invests (potential tropical depressions) are called 90L, 91L through 99L then 90L, 91L and so on and other basins have other letters like E for East Pacific. The "L" is probably for AtLantic. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I am moving this to the Science Help Desk. Here: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:31, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

September 12

How many small claims courts are there in the US?

It has been suggested that people affected by the Equifax breach sue Equifax individually in small claims court. (Apparently they can do that in addition to joining the class-action lawsuit, but as I am not a lawyer I will not speak to that.) Apparently there are 143 million people affected. If all of them sued Equifax in their local small claims court, how many people would have to go through each courtroom and how long would each case take? How long would it take before everyone was done with their suits? I tried to look up the number of small claims courts in the US using Google, Wikipedia, and the Reference Desk archives and got nothing. PointyOintment (talk) 05:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

In the United States, every state has a small claims court system. And, within that system, there are various court houses. The small claims court is typically a "division" or "branch" of the "regular" court. The "regular" court has different names in different states. The main criteria that distinguishes a claim in "small claims court" versus "regular court" is that the amount of money sought by the plaintiff is less than a specified value. (Typically, the claim must be less than $5,000.) So -- essentially -- there are as many small claims courts as there are "regular courts" in the US. Hope that helps somewhat. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For example, here is the "scheme" of the court system in West Virginia: [5]. Every state has some similar structure. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

To answer some of your other questions: each case is different. A "typical" small claims case might take only 5 minutes; it might take perhaps 20-30 minutes if it were more involved and complicated. Each case is different. But, generally speaking, it's like an "assembly line" and the judges (magistrates) try to get through things very quickly. I referred to a time frame of either 5 minutes or perhaps 20-30 minutes. That refers to the time in court arguing the actual case. Oftentimes, there are many delays, continuances, postponements, etc. So, a small claims case may take months -- even several years -- from start to finish. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The legal system allows litigants to pool their resources. See Class action. 81.139.183.197 (talk) 08:12, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

... as mentioned by the OP, but the link is useful. Dbfirs 11:50, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Note to be clear, it's not normally possible to have a class action lawsuit in small claims court AFAIK. This source for example, mentions that you may be able to coodinate etc, but each claim will still have to be considered separately although in some cases multiple cases could give credibility http://www.nolo. com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/small-claims-book/chapter7-12.html. The class action lawsuit will be separate from any small claims case. Note that I'm not sure it's always possible to take a small claims court if you join a class action lawsuit. These sources [6] [7] for example covering a different matter suggests you opt out of a class-action if you want to take a small claims court although that's relating to a class-action lawsuit with a settlement. (Our article does cover opting-out albeit without many sources.) Note that there were concerns the case could affect the class action settlement [8] but it ended up being successfully appealed by Honda [9]. (Actually while I did find one source claiming you can take a small claims court case while continuing with the class action in relation to the Equifax example, I didn't find any sources actually talking about how this works. Nil Einne (talk) 16:34, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I guess it can get somewhat complicated and involved. But, at the end of the day, no court system (in the USA) is going to allow the complaining party (the plaintiff) more than one chance to argue their case (or their grievance or their dispute). That would be duplicitous. It could also lead to contradictory results. So, courts do not engage in that. It would also allow parties to keep re-litigating issues forever and ever with no end in sight. And, it would hardly provide closure or resolution. And it would not offer us (the general public) any legal precedent by which all of us can be "on notice" and abide by. In other words, it would throw the state of the law into constant flux and confusion. Which is the exact opposite of "resolving" a dispute. That being said ... perhaps it is possible to have two different cases in two different courts (e.g., one case in the class-action lawsuit and its court; and one case in the small claims court). But, the "issues" would probably have to be defined and delineated and "crafted" in such a way as to make them be, legally, two separate and different claims or issues. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Two questions about climate change denial

I have two questions about climate change denial:

1. Why does it seem that climate change denial is rather prevalent among populist and far-right political circles? Disregarding the Republican Party in the United States, populist and/or far-right parties in Europe such as the UK's UKIP, Germany's AfD, and Switzerland's Swiss People's Party either deny climate climate or at the very least are skeptical about the scientific consensus on it. I know that in the US, denial is common due to the funding of conservative think tanks by the oil industry, but this does not seem to explain the popularity of the concept among the far-right in Europe, who as far as I know do not seem to have links to the oil industry.

2. Who and what are examples of prominent climate change denialists (people and organizations) in Asia? According to an article I read, climate change denial used to be common in China, but the movement pretty much died out there by 2011. Are there any current prominent climate change denalist people and organizations in Asia? Our articles related to climate change denial don't seem to discuss the concept in much detail when it comes to Asia.

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For your second question, I looked at List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming there's an ugly article name... I only gave it a cursory glance, but there didn't seem to be any Asian-looking name on the list or Asian universities listed. That could, of course, be the result of non-neutral editing - since this is the English Wikipedia, most of the editors are less well-versed in Asian scientist's beliefs. You could compare that list to List of climate scientists, I suppose; neither seems to have many stereotypically-sounding Asian names on it, suggesting one or both are woefully incomplete. Maybe this or this provides some perspective? Matt Deres (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For the first - you're describing Right-wing populism. That is generally anti-elitist, nationalistic, anti-globalization, anti welfare state, traditionalist, pro social difference and pro industry whether it affects people's health or the environment. And they only tend to accept information from people they believe support their values rather than because of reason. And their aspirations are to become one of the rich. How does any of that fit in with accepting climate change? It is a global problem, it requires change, talking about the long term future is seen as an elitist activity, it isn't kind to the idea of rich people dashing round the world in airplanes or even driving SUVs, and it seems to dash hopes of a bright future through more and more gas guzzling industry and to portray a miserable future for their children. It is a rejection at the gut feel level without any thought of what that means. Dmcq (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

In my experience, anti-elitism ("It's a conspiracy") and anti-intellectualism ("these ebony-tower scientists with their theories don't understand anything better than I do with my common sense") are major factors. Most of the populist voters lack the education (and inclination) to read and understand scientific theories, and, as Dmcq wrote, they dislike all change. That makes it easy and convenient to discount the consensus. Some of the leaders may understand the science, but they play to their audience, no doubt rationalising this ("for the greater good", "it's probably not that bad", "it will primarily hurt brown people in faraway places, not the ones I feel responsible about"). The 2011 edition of The Oxford Handbook of Climate Change and Society [10] has a chapter on Organized Climate Change Denial with a section on climate change denial outside the US, explaining a lot of international denial as export from the US. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Two states headed by climate change deniers have been hit with huge (and very costly) storms. Good luck thinking that their attitude might change. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Please consult a climatologist... the severity of individual storms are not the result of climate change. There have been large storms throughout history. Blueboar (talk) 17:15, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

That's not quite right. You cannot reliable link any sinlge weather event to climate change, but, according to our current understanding, climate change will increase the average strength of hurricanes. If you play Russian roulette and keep increasing the number of loaded chambers, you cannot tie any individual loss to that process (well, unless you have all chambers filled ;-), but it would be misleading to say that that change has nothing to do with the increased frequency of replacing players. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The analogy I use is dropping an anvil on your head. When you drop an anvil on your head, it makes no sense to ask "which atom of iron killed me." After all I can drop a spoon on my head, and the iron atoms in that spoon don't kill me. That must mean my death wasn't caused by the iron atoms, right? Just as no one storm can be said to be caused by climate change, but we CAN say that we should get more storms of higher intensity. Likewise, just because the anvil hasn't yet hit my head doesn't mean I can't see it coming when it will. Ultimately, these mistakes are caused by the same sort of cognitive dissonance caused by Zeno's paradox; the incorrect assumption that a continuous phenomenon (climate) can be reduced to individual elements (weather) and that analysis of those individual events is sufficient to explain the continuous phenomenon. --Jayron32 13:39, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

There would have to be a number of years of that before it became strong evidence of anything. But I suppose 'common-sense' just about might consider them as that - until next Winter when some place is cut off by snow. They are never going to be swayed by the long-term scientific evidence, only if some respected Republicans and churchmen accept it will they change their stance. Dmcq (talk) 17:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

• Something to keep in mind here... there is a difference between climate change denial and opposition to climate related policy. It is quite possible for a politician to agree that climate change exists... and yet to oppose proposed laws designed to deal with it. Blueboar (talk) 12:55, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

If only political decisions had some sort of basis in rationality rather than rationalization, but when did you last see a politician basing a decision on something that worked out well somewhere else or even properly testing out their ideas before implementing them wholescale? - far too often that is just Minimisation (psychology) which is a form of denial, or they go in for denying blame or responsibility saying somebody else should act first. Dmcq (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

One over the eight

Last Tuesday the June Bank Holiday (Creation) Bill 2017-19 was presented in the House of Commons. It is next expected to be considered on Friday, 15 June (this is a Private Members' day and there may be a lot of Bills in the queue). It will increase the number of bank and public holidays in England and Wales to nine (depending on whether time is devolved it may apply to Scotland and Northern Ireland as well).

• What does the "2017-19" part of the title mean?

The Bill provides for a holiday on 23 June, or the following Monday if 23 June is a non - working day. So it doesn't provide for a long weekend, which is normal with these holidays. It adds to the clutch of bank holidays in the spring (it is only three weeks after the previous one).

• What is the significance of this date? (It's not the sponsor's birthday - I checked). 81.139.183.197 (talk) 15:07, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Anniversary of the Brexit referendum? Rojomoke (talk) 15:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that was the idea. Some idiot (I've forgotten which one) called it a UK independence day. Dbfirs 15:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

It was this one. --Antiquary (talk) 18:22, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah yes! Thank you. That one! I predict that the Bill will fail. Dbfirs 21:45, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah, I get it. That will be why it's limited to 2018 and 2019 - it will be a Monday in both these years. Harold Wilson did the same thing - he promised a holiday for May Day (1 May) starting in 1978 as an election gimmick. We duly had Monday, 1 May that year but then it moved to the first Monday in the month. 81.139.183.197 (talk) 16:09, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The sponsor of this Bill, Peter Bone, is given the title of "Arch-Brexiteer" in yesterday's City A.M. I propose an amendment. Instead of a new holiday on 23 June abolish May Day (it's stupidly close to Easter) and the late spring bank holiday. In their place bring back Whit Monday which is a useful time for school half - term because it's always seven weeks after Easter and have a holiday on the following day as well. This would be named "Europe Day" and commemorate the date (5 June 1975) when Britain voted to REMAIN part of Europe. There is a precedent for this - five years ago 4 and 5 June were both holidays. The weather at the beginning of May is not up to much, but at the beginning of June it's much better. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 11:24, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

See Peter Bone. Alansplodge (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

• It's not limited to those years - it makes June 23 a bank holiday in perpetuity, or the following Monday when it's a weekend. ("A Bill to make provision for a national public holiday on 23 June or the subsequent weekday when 23 June falls at a weekend; and for connected purposes.") Smurrayinchester 12:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

• 2017-19 means that the bill was proposed in the 2017 parliament - if you look, all current bills have the same year reference (eg European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 2017-19). If it passes into law, it will be named the June Bank Holiday (Creation) Act 2017, or whatever year it happens to pass in. Normally, parliaments just have a one year span, but the government has decided to extend parliament for the length of Brexit negotiations, which is why it's 2017-2019. Smurrayinchester 11:33, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Small nit: what normally lasts a year is a legislative session. Each parliament refers to the parliament elected at an election until it is dissolved for another election. The current parliament is the 57th, but there have been many more legislative sessions. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:11, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Smaller nit - pick: Those 57 are parliaments of the United Kingdom. Before the three - way union there were parliaments of Great Britain and Ireland. Before the two - way union there were also parliaments of England and Scotland. There were also parliaments in Wales. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Equifax

The Equifax security breach would seem to me to have a simple solution—issue new social security numbers to every American. Wouldn't that go a long way to solving the problem? I think the social security number is a key piece of information without which it would be very difficult to open new credit lines. Bus stop (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Is it just me or does it seem totally stupid that a 9-digit number is all that stands between an individual and a thief? I am not technologically-oriented but surely somebody with brainpower can come up with a system that is more brawny than that. Bus stop (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

This is the logical consequence of (1) companies using the SSN as an ID, which they're not supposed to do; and (2) the all-too-lax security at companies where bean counters rule. Re-issuing SSN's could be a problem unless they totally change the scheme. The SSN has built-in meaning. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:51, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: What do you mean by "the SSN has built-in meaning"? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For example, the 3-digit prefix indicates something about the state of issue. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:24, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, yes, I see what you mean. I think that the year of issue is somehow embedded in there, as well. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:35, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I would think that technology such as Multi-factor authentication and EMV, or "chip cards", would allow people to safeguard their identity so it couldn't be stolen to open new lines of credit. Bus stop (talk) 16:03, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I suspect that the "solution" is going to be to put chips in us. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

People in these five states can (currently) refuse to play that game. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:18, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

I suspect one of the ideas the vote-fraud commission will come up with is that anyone who wants to vote in a federal election will have to get chipped. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:25, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and then any subject who wants to buy or sell things will play along. But for now, there are legal hurdles and a general feeling of "nuh-uh". InedibleHulk (talk) 18:48, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

A question back to the original poster. Let's say that we do change everyone's SSN. So, what? How does that solve the problem? A year from now, or 5 years from now, or 3 weeks from now, we would have to change them all over again. No? How does that solve the problem? In other words, changing everyone's SSN would be a band-aid, not a "real" solution. No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand. Why would we "have to change them all over again"? Bus stop (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The next time they get hacked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. Essentially, Bus stop, you are proposing this scheme: The numbers get hacked; so we issue new numbers. The numbers get hacked again, so we issue (more) new numbers. The numbers get hacked again, so we issue (more) new numbers. And so on. I can't imagine that is a "solution". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:39, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

It's a great solution, Joseph A. Spadaro, you just fail to appreciate its simplicity and effectiveness. Bus stop (talk) 12:51, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

@Bus stop: OK. You may think that it's a great solution, simple and effective. And I disagree. So, we are free to disagree. (I suspect 99% of the population would also disagree, to be honest.) Let's leave the issue of "disagreement" aside. So, you did not answer the question that I asked. After we change the numbers, and there is another hack, then what? We change the numbers again? And, after there is yet another hack, then what? We change the numbers yet again? Please answer that question. If we are constantly changing numbers, ad infinitum, how is this "effective"? And how is that "simple"? I would now have to remember 28 different SSN's that I have? And which time-frame corresponded with which SSN? You consider that "simple"? Actually, sounds like a nightmare. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Another very simple solution: Publish everyone's name and social security number on a monthly basis in a very easy to use public database. Then, nobody will assume that your SSN is a secret in any way. They will ask for some other form of secret information to verify that you are who you say you are. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

And the new secrets will stay secret yet verifiable, somehow? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:10, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

If Bitcoin is possible then protecting the identities of human beings should be possible. Bus stop (talk) 19:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Is that "we can put a man on the moon"-style encouragement, or is there an actual clue here? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:16, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

Not an actual clue, as I don't have a clue... Bus stop (talk) 20:20, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

There is currently a proposal by a not-for-profit organisation in Palo Alto, CA, called Democracy Earth, to use a Bitcoin-like system called Sovereign (no article as yet) to enable completely verifiable and uncorruptible means of voting (amongst other things): it's also being advocated by a political group (the Net party) in Argentina. There's an article about it on pp 8–9 of this week's (9 Sept 2017) issue of New Scientist. If such a system could be used for voter identification and verification, it could no doubt be adapted to other things requiring proofs of identity. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.137.12 (talk) 08:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it is obvious that the banks have biometric identification measures possible - though these suffer from the clear flaw that if someone can inject false output as obtained from the reader then they have wide open access (i.e. if the car dealer needs your fingerprint to get a loan, then a dishonest car dealer can get a file of downloaded fingerprints and take out billions in loans, then vanish. It would nonetheless seem rather inexpensive for the actual lender to require, say, a live conversation over a company certified phone, backed by facial recognition, conducted with video broadcast from in and near the actual house used as collateral (as confirmed by Google Maps view). But -- it would be a pain in the ass, and they'd lose customers, and since fraud isn't really that common, it makes more economic sense for the bank to suffer fraud than to suffer lost customers. Wnt (talk) 23:07, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@Wnt: You stated: and since fraud isn't really that common. Huh? Wasn't that exactly the topic at hand here? Fraud? And, seriously, isn't "fraud" pretty common? Or are you saying that while a security breach may be common, any subsequent ensuing fraud is not? Isn't that the whole point of a hack like this – precisely to facilitate some form of fraud? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:44, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

In this country the National Insurance Number is the key to collating all an employee's contributions for the purpose of calculating pension entitlement. If all the numbers were changed how could this be done? 92.8.216.51 (talk) 09:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Excellent point. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Social Security Numbers

Regardless of whether the Equifax hack should be the reason, redesigning the Social Security Number and issuing new ones would be a good idea and will eventually be needed. When Social Security Numbers were introduced in the mid-1930's, less was known about the business of unique identifiers than is known now. It is true that the first 3 digits of the SSN are useful, and they should be perhaps kept. However, the Social Security Number doesn't include a check digit or any sort of check. As a result, if an SSN is off by 1, it is someone else's SSN. If a credit card number is off by 1, it is rejected as bad, and rejecting all single-digit errors is now known to be an input design constraint in any sort of unique identifier. The SSN really should be replaced with a 12-digit number, taking advantage of knowledge, some of which resulted from the mistakes of the SSN. Whether Equifax is the reason is another question. The rollout of the new SSNs should be done after adequate study, not just hastily because of Equifax. Robert McClenon (talk) 10:31, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I was following your argument, and it made a lot of sense. Until I came to the end. This part confused me. What exactly would be the difference if the SSN were 12 digits (as you proposed) or 9 digits (as is currently)? I don't follow that. I understand your point that there should be some "check", similar to credit cards. I don't see how 12-digits is a good SSN, while 9-digits is not. Please clarify. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Joseph A. Spadaro - There need to be enough digits so that having a Social Security Number by wrong in one digit will not be a different person's SSN. That means that there have to be at least enough digits so that one of the digits is a "check", over and above enough digits just to cover the population. The population of the United States is estimated at 326 million, and babies now are issued SSNs when they are born, and SSNs are not reused by the dead, so that more than 400 million SSNs have been issued. That means 9 digits that have meaning, so that a minimum of 9 meaningful digits and a "check" is 10 digits. There are advantages to 11 or 12. It doesn't have to be a 12-digit number. It could be 11. 10 would be the absolute minimum, and 11 or 12 would be better. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Makes sense. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

In Britain we used to have National Insurance cards, on which employers used to stick National Insurance stamps. When the cards were full they would be passed back to presumably the Inland Revenue and exchanged for new ones. To make the system manageable the cards did not all fill up at the same time. The numbers had a suffix "A", "B", "C" or "D" to denote the quarter at the end of which the cards expired. ("A" was 31 March and so on to "D" which was 31 December). When the stamps were done away with the numbering was not changed, so the suffixes were then allocated, as I understand, on a random basis. I am sure an algorithm could be devised so that these letters could function as a check digit. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 10:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

There are often dichotomies and paradoxes (see for one example Mayfield's paradox) built into any system that often are unresolvable given different end goals of different entities. Security concerns often conflict with other concerns in ways that make it almost impossible to meet all requirements of a situation. For example: If you want to design a secure building, you give it ONE entrance/exit point, so you can control who comes and goes. But, if you want to design a safe building you want as many exit points as possible, so that people can get out in a hurry if needed. You can't have both a building where you can control access and which people can easily get out in a fire. Even locking doors from the inside isn't secure, people often prop them open or let people in. See, for example, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, where measures taken for security purposes resulted in deaths. These problems show up in many permutations. My son this year is required to wear a visible name tag to ride the bus, so the bus driver can make sure she has the correct kids on her bus, to prevent kids from taking the wrong bus home. Seems like a good idea, right? Until you realize that anyone know can see my kid's name, and then use that to gain his trust and do nasty things to him. We have live shooter drills in school every year and they are always changing up the requirements, because the security personnel and first responders can't agree on whose goals are more important. Security wants everyone to close their doors and cover all windows and hide (so such an attacker can't know where to find victims). First responders want to be able to know the condition of people in the room, so they know where to concentrate their efforts, so they want windows open and us to use a "colored card" system to identify safe areas and areas where there may be threats. But any method used to communicate with first responders also communicates information to the attackers we're trying to avoid. Similarly, take Password strength issues: if you have a password that you can easily remember, then it's easier to crack. If it is harder to remember, you're more likely to need to write it down somewhere, which can then be stolen. Security vs. safety came into direct conflict in the 2015 San Bernardino attack investigation and similar demands from law enforcement for IT companies to build in law-enforcement accessible backdoors and the like into security systems. However, just like with the fire exit example, any emergency back door can be "propped open" for anyone to access. If the police can get in, anyone can get in. The pervasive use of the SSN as a unique identifier is exactly analogous to these issues; ideally every interaction between a person and an organization would generate a different unique identifier. However, then you get the problem that people don't remember that identifier, so they need a physical copy, which then is insecure. So everyone defaults to a unique identifier they can memorize and use over and over again. Do you build your building with one door or many doors? --Jayron32 10:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

See trade-off. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 11:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

For comparison's sake, my Swiss health insurance card has a 20-digit card number (specifically for healthcare) and a 13-digit person number (linked to other government services). Since I live in a country with only 8 million people, having this many digits seems excessive. Dragons flight (talk) 13:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

A check digit would be nice. Mistakes do happen. I personally know two people who were declared dead because their SSN was accidentally added to the national deceased list. Obviously, the monkey typing in deceased SSNs typod. But, by law, the social security administration cannot be held responsible for accidentally declaring a person deceased and the person who typod the entry is not responsible and cannot be punished. So, it is up to the "dead" person to file paperwork and wait months for the issue to be cleared up while their car is repossessed, house is foreclosed, bank account is closed, all credit cards are closed, retirement is ended, insurance is cancelled, etc... 209.149.113.5 (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

By "typod" I think you mean "typoed". Bus stop (talk) 13:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I am just very facetious. I also purposely write mispell as much as possible. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 15:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

The Social Succulency Administration ought to do something about it. Bus stop (talk) 16:15, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

September 14

Hanoverian succession

Sophia of Hanover reigned over Hanover in the early 18th century, and the heirs male of her body remained Kings of Hanover while also Kings of Great Britain and Kings of the United Kingdom. However, the accession of Victoria of the United Kingdom in 1837 ended the personal union, and some cousin or other male relative of Victoria (with lesser priority under UK succession rules) took the throne of Hanover due to its prohibition of female succession. How could Sophia be Electress if Victoria couldn't be Queen? Did the laws change during the 120 years of personal union, or were the circumstances different? Nyttend backup (talk) 17:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

She was Electress consort rather than Electress regnant. The ruling Elector of Hanover was her husband Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg (Brunswick-Luneburg being the official name of what we call "Hanover"). So she was heir to the throne of Great Britain while her husband was heir to the throne of Hanover. Her son was heir to both due to succession laws differing in the two states. In summary, she had no claim to Hanover, it wasn't her throne, it was her husband's. --Jayron32 17:41, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As I understand it, Sophia was only the electress consort, the wife of the reigning prince-elector, Ernest Augustus. She never reigned over Hanover herself, but because she was the daughter of Elizabeth Stuart and a Protestant, she went to the front of the British line of succession after the Act of Settlement 1701 had stricken out all the Catholics, and might have become our queen regnant had she outlived Queen Anne. Alansplodge (talk) 17:51, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

By the way, it was Victoria's uncle, another Ernest Augustus, who succeeded to the throne of Hanover (or Hannover as the Germans insist on calling it) and was followed in 1851 by his blind son, George who was indeed Victoria's first cousin. George messed-up badly by supporting the wrong side in the Austro-Prussian War (against the advice of his parliament) and Hanover was annexed by the Prussians who were quite good at that sort of thing. Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Oops, sorry; I should have read more than the introduction to Sophia's article. Sorry about that. Nyttend backup (talk) 18:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Don't mention it; I hadn't realised what an unpleasant crew the later Hanoverians were; see Queen Victoria's Creepy Uncle for an amusing if unscholarly read. Alansplodge (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Strange btw. that the old and common german first name "Ernst" sometimes gets converted to "Ernest" in translation to english (see identical person: Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg, de:Ernst August (Hannover)). His successor however, the current Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1954), obviously has not been converted. Is this simply an error in the englisch wikipedia? --Kharon (talk) 06:22, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's an error. See WP:COMMONNAME. For example, our article on the husband of Queen Victoria's eldest daughter is "Frederick III". 92.8.216.51 (talk) 14:44, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Russian hat

Does anyone know the proper name for the type of cap that was/is often worn in former Soviet industrial facilities (even in offices)? Image: [11] Thanks --194.118.198.73 (talk) 18:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not unique to Russia. One can find them all over the world. Their called scrub caps and they are common in many clean environments, from operating theaters to clean rooms. You can see many examples here. --Jayron32 18:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Russian doctors wear an even taller one, almost like a chef. Google isn't telling me the answer though. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

That Russian doctor is wearing a toque, commonly worn in food service (see here. More commonly part of the Chef's uniform, it is worn for the same reason as a scrub cap, so I don't see why a doctor wouldn't wear it. It serves much the same purpose. --Jayron32 18:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd be happy if my doctor dressed as a chef, but it takes all sorts I suppose. Was the OP looking for a Russian name? Alansplodge (talk) 18:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Especially troubling if they cover the operating table in butcher paper. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

September 15

Anthony Weiner

He pled guilty and is scheduled for sentencing soon. But I'm having a hard time finding (e.g. from Anthony Weiner sexting scandals) exactly what he did that got him charged in the first place. I get that there were dirty pictures involved and I have no desire to see them, but I'd like to find some kind of concrete text description of what was in them, e.g. "Picture #23 was Anthony Wiener standing butt nekkid on top of a refrigerator waving his bits around" or whatever.

Like if someone is admits to robbing a bank, I don't want to see "he pled guilty to statue XYZ against bank robbery"-- I want to see "he held up the Anytown National Bank, 123 Main Street, Anytown NY, at 2:15 PM on [date] by passing a note to the teller saying "give me all your quarters! while brandishing an Uzi submachine gun". I.e. the exact details of the offense. Those sorts of descriptions are seen in police and FBI complaints all the time (there were some good ones in the Cliven/Ammon Bundy sagas) but I haven't been able to find one for Wiener. The only thing I saw was a provocative picture of Wiener in bed in his underwear, way creepy under the circumstances, but not especially more explicit than stuff shown on TV all the time.

Thanks.

173.228.123.121 (talk) 02:51, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

This (somewhat) answers your question. Did you see this: [12]? I don't think you will get specific and precise information about what exactly the photographs entailed. They simply say "sexually explicit images" in that document linked here. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:38, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

And here is his plea agreement, which (like the document above) only offers legal mumbo-jumbo and not the specific details that you are inquiring about: [13]. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:06, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The British news offers more sordid details than the American news market. See here: [14]. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:22, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I hadn't seen the DOJ press release per se, but I saw some mentions of "obscene material", which (maybe I'm wrong) I thought in a context like that means material meeting all three prongs of the Miller test (ordinary pornography generally isn't considered obscene these days, despite being sexually explicit). The Daily Mail article adds some color and insinuates that the underage girl sent Wiener nude pics (child porn?) at his request, but doesn't actually say so afaict. It says the same stuff I heard before about Wiener with his shirt off, and schoolgirl outfits on the other person. There doesn't seem to have been any outright sex solicitation. Overall the stuff described is beyond icky, but I still find it hard to pinpoint Wiener's specific acts that triggered the criminal statutes. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Added, yes, I did see the plea agreement earlier, and its lack of specifics was mostly what led me into posting the question in the first place. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:29, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I have not reviewed the case thoroughly. But, I don't think that he was ever being charged with -- nor were there ever any allegations of -- him soliciting sex from a minor. The crime was simply sending the photos to a minor. That, in and of itself, constituted the crime. In other words, it is illegal to send to a minor sexually explicit photographs. That's it. And that's what he did. I don't think there were ever any instances of him actually soliciting sex from the young minors. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

This is the crime that he committed. Or, rather, this is the statute that he violated. 18 U.S. Code § 1470 - Transfer of obscene material to minors - Whoever, using the mail or any facility or means of interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly transfers obscene matter to another individual who has not attained the age of 16 years, knowing that such other individual has not attained the age of 16 years, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. So, simply sending the photos -- without any solicitation of sex -- was the criminal act, in and of itself. I assume he sent many photo's, not just one, by the way. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

You stated: I still find it hard to pinpoint Wiener's specific acts that triggered the criminal statutes. The answer is: he sent emails or texts (or whatever) of sexually explicit photographs. And those specific acts are a violation of the federal statute that I cited above. Perhaps, news outlets (trying to get better ratings) erroneously stated -- or inferred -- that he was trying to solicit sex from these minors. Which, as far as I know, he did not. Or, at least, such was not alleged by the federal government. So, that might be the source of your confusion? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:46, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Above, you mentioned the definition of "obscenity" and how the U.S. Supreme Court defined it through case law (e.g., the "Miller test"). However, see this source from the U.S. Department of Justice: Citizen's Guide To U.S. Federal Law On Obscenity. It says: The standard of what is harmful to minors may differ from the standard applied to adults. Harmful materials for minors include any communication consisting of nudity, sex or excretion that (i) appeals to the prurient interest of minors, (ii) is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community with respect to what is suitable material for minors, (iii) and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors. (I myself added the bold to the text.) So, what is considered "obscene" for (or harmful to) minors is not defined by the "Miller test". The standards are much lower (i.e., less restrictive; broader in scope). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh interesting, thanks, I didn't know about the differing obscenity standard for minors. But I still haven't seen anywhere a clear statement that he sent explicit material that actually says what the material was. We usually wouldn't charge someone with murder without saying who they killed and how they did it, so something is still missing or being treated specially here.

I know about the underwear pic but I'd have a hard time calling that explicit. And he did send an explicit pic (to a non-minor) a few years earlier in the "Carlos Danger" saga, and the press didn't have trouble reporting the details that time. It seems almost like a cover-up where the person pleads to a fictitious lesser charge to avoid getting prosecuted for something they did that was even worse. (Not saying I believe that theory, just that it would explain some things). 173.228.123.121 (talk) 16:49, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

A few comments. One: Perhaps, if you could find the federal government's (prosecutor's) charging documents, they might outline more clearly what they meant by "explicit photographs". I looked for them (very quickly), but I could not find them online. Two: I believe that some photographs involved him having an erection. It was "covered" (e.g., underneath his underwear or boxers or such), but it was still clearly an erection visible. I assume that "counts" as explicit or obscene for these purposes. Three: There was a settlement reached. Which means that, regardless of what evidence the prosecutors did -- or did not -- put forth, Weiner himself agreed that his photographs were obscene/explicit. So, if Weiner himself agrees to that point, there is no further need for the prosecutors to prove that point. That is, there is no need for them to disclose or publish the photographs or even any descriptions of them. It is a "done deal" that Weiner himself agrees that the photographs were explicit/obscene. Because he agreed to the settlement. That is, he agreed that he violated that statute. So, these are just some points to ponder. If you really want to get the explicit details, your best bet is to find the charging document. Even then, it might simply be an affidavit from a detective stating: "I saw the photographs and they were obscene", without detailing what exactly was in the photographs. All this being said, I think that whatever information is already "out there" (for example, that British Daily Mail article) more or less gives us the "flavor" of what types of photographs he was sending. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks as usual; I wasn't able to find the charging docs with some web searches, but I did see the plea agreement, and I knew that Wiener admitted sending obscene material, but without saying what it was as far as I can tell. IMHO that created more sense of mystery rather than less, and the mystery was what led me to look into the question. It's like a Mafia member signing a plea deal admitting that he killed someone but not saying who he killed. What exactly is going on?

The boner pic in the underwear is imho dubious for meeting an obscenity standard given that there is even underwear advertising like that[15] (warning: direct picture link). And another ex-congressmember, Dennis Hastert, did some jail time nominally for drawing too much cash out of the bank without notifying the IRS, but the underlying situation (he drew the money to pay off one of his child molestation victims) wasn't originally disclosed. So I still have to wonder if something is going on with the Weiner case that doesn't meet the eye. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 04:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. Some thought and comments. One: I am not quite sure what you are "looking for". Do you want a statement that indicates what the photo depicts? Do you want a statement that indicates to whom he sent the photo? I am not sure what specific info you would like. Two: I would suspect that an erection photo would easily fit the (looser and more relaxed) standards for minors. Three: That advertisement for underwear was from Germany, not the USA, I believe. Four: What nefarious things do you suspect are going on? Are you wondering if the federal government is trying to "help" Weiner by not disclosing too many embarrassing details? I think that ship has long since sailed. So, I am not sure what you think might be being "covered up" and by whom? And to what end? It seems illogical that the FBI would be on Weiner's "side", helping him in any way. They are, after all, sending him to prison. They are adding him to the Sex Offender Registry. And, if they really had wanted to, they could have chosen to not pursue anything at all here. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:09, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

As far as some specifics: The Daily Mail article (here: [16]) states that the female victim says that Weiner sent her pornographic videos and also nude photographs of himself. Those two items would certainly violate the statute in question. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Here are some more legal documents -- 22 pages -- but they don't say much: [17]. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:41, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Here is a 71-page legal memo: [18]. Very interesting. It delves into the history/life of Weiner. And it talks at length about his crime. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:46, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Is rape about power and control or sexual gratification?

What do research studies say?Uncle dan is home (talk) 03:40, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

For starters, you can read the Rape and the Causes of sexual violence articles. Both articles discuss the topic of your concern. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

You can also Google these "search terms" and get a million results. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is the subject of the ITV drama series Liar, of which the first episode aired last Monday (available on catchup). See Thordis Elva. 92.8.176.91 (talk) 12:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Do you think they have to be mutually exclusive? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.137.12 (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. I am sure that, in some rape cases, it's about power/control. And I am sure that, in other rape cases, it's about sexual gratification. (Two things that, generally speaking, overlap considerably.) And, in other rape cases, I am sure that it's a combination of these two factors. And, of course, there are a myriad of other reasons (beyond power/control and sexual gratification) that can be thrown into the mix. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:27, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Rape is about forced sex. Anything beyond that is an opinion or point of view. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

So if force = power, and sex = gratification, then you're just saying the same thing as the others. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:46, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Evaluating religious bias and affirmative action

I've been watching the travails of the Daily Stormer as it has been repeatedly denied DNS registration, and in the process I've run across a fair amount of anti-Semitic propaganda, of which some of the most cogent and virulent targets companies like CNN, claiming that they have a massive bias toward Jews in their workforce and upper management. I remember years ago seeing similar claims (in more mainstream media) made about the Moonies, who were said to have gotten some kind of stranglehold on film editing, if I remember correctly, and controlling media outlets like the Washington Times [19].

I'm wondering -- is there relevant mainstream theory here? I mean, well, first off, is there any truth to the claims of Jewish predominance at CNN, but more importantly, if there are a large number of Jewish employees, then what is the prevailing theory, law, or opinion about whether "affirmative action" should be taken to increase diversity, whether on behalf of blacks, whites, or Christians? Is there a difference between a company with a statistically improbable excess of Moonies and one with an improbable excess of Lutherans? Wnt (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

There's two questions here, assuming the best of faith; 1) Has anyone taken the data necessary to produce an answer for your question and 2) Is there any compelling reason for anyone to have taken that data. Any number of "studies" could have been undertaken regarding data for a population of people; the number of left-handed people, or people born in July, or people whose middle toe is slightly longer than their second toe. Hypothetically, if we were to find a disproportionate number of July birthdates among upper management at CNN, should it then lead us to conclude a systematic problem or deliberate attempt to put July-born people in positions in control over the media? If that seems patently ridiculous, that's why such a study has never been done. Replace "July-born" with "Jewish" and it becomes no less stupid. Any such accusation is anti-semitic at its core; because the notion that it's data which if it were known would lead to any meaningful conclusion about media bias is, at its core, anti-semtic. So no, the data doesn't exist, and if it did, it wouldn't mean anything. --Jayron32 18:08, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

See also Who is a Jew? and http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Questions that on the surface seem ridiculous may not actually be so. Top athletes' birthdays are not evenly distributed across the year, see Relative age effect; and as for fingers (or who knows, maybe toes too) there is "a correlation between the 2D:4D digit ratio and various physical and behavioral traits", according to digit ratio. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The Relative age effect is a function of the systems for selecting athletes rather than because the athletes themselves are conspiring to keep out people with the wrong birthdates. The implication that because such an effect exist therefore we should worry about Jewish people working for CNN seems spurious at best. --Jayron32 19:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking of correlation, possibly causation, not conspiracy. Quakers used to be brewers and bankers; now they are teachers and social workers (in Britain, at least [20]). I would hope that sociologists of industry can study such phenomena without being accused of conspiracy theories. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:07, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh, they can. So long as they aren't trying to be bigots. --Jayron32 03:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Jayron32: I'm not really following your argument above. Are you suggesting that all ethnic hiring bias is unlikely, so that affirmative action can be avoided in every case, or are there certain groups who participate in it and others who do not, or should be assumed not to? I mean, there are multiple explanations for bias, but I wouldn't think that one hypothesis for such bias would be exceptionally unlikely or mysterious: that all people in charge have a tendency to hire by who they know or even (like certain Presidents) who they are related to, and this skews the frequencies. For example, if you look at any high profile scientific journal, you'll see various lab groups in the U.S. with last authors (typically the bosses) from China, Russia, India and so on. If you look at the list of names for the other authors from that lab group, do you expect them to be random, or to be pretty much of the same ethnicity as their boss? Try it if you aren't sure what to expect. Wnt (talk) 03:16, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I haven't made any argument. --Jayron32 03:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

September 16

Textual lacunae and a Gnostic text

The well-known Trimorphic Protennoia has a lacuna near the end, a condition that's well attested in lots of sources. But how can we know that it's a lacuna and not merely a scribal error such as haplography or a big (intentional) whitespace in the text? In particular, how do we know that the lacuna is five lines long, as is stated by lots of sources? Unlike poetry, this source doesn't appear to have had standard lines; I expect that saying that it's missing five requires more effort than saying that a nine-line sonnet is missing five lines. https://books.google.com/books?id=GSciDAAAQBAJ discusses a lacuna in the text, but apparently it's a different spot where the text isn't lost: a piece of parchment adhered to the cover of a codex, so a piece of the manuscript is detached, but it was found attached to the cover and its proper place was identified. This doesn't appear to have had any such discovery. Nyttend (talk) 04:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Hand signal?

What is the significance, at 12:42, in this video, of a hand held up, as it is. The only thing I notice is that two fingers are separated from two fingers. But that, to me, means nothing. What is going on? I looked at List of gestures but I don't see anything obvious. Bus stop (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I think he's showing her that he has no wedding ring. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:39, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I guess so. I considered that. It seemed weak symbolism, especially given her response. She says "I'm sorry", as if he just presented her with a fact that is tragic. Bus stop (talk) 18:54, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it fits in perfectly with the context of that scene. He is holding up his hand (fingers) to say "Look. See. I don't have a wedding ring on." (as was indicated by an editor above). But, he also says, "Yeah, I know what you mean. I just went through the same thing as you did. My partner/wife just left me, too." (or words and sentiments to that effect). So, she says "I'm sorry", because he did present her with a (somewhat) "tragic" fact. The (implied) divorce / break-up was tragic to him. 22:50, 16 September 2017 (UTC)