Talk:Parler

RfC: Should "antisemitism" be removed from the lead?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus to retain the sentence as it is. The majority of editors believe that the sourcing is sufficient to establish due weight in the lead. On the other hand, many of the editors disputing this inclusion used weaker arguments, such as alleged inclusion of antisemitism on other social media platforms, or by citing some sources that do not mention it. Alternate wordings that retain the gist of the original sentence have been discussed below, and may also be used if there is a consensus for them. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

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The second sentence of the lead currently reads:

Posts on the website often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories.

Should we:

• Option 1: Retain the current wording.
• Option 2: Remove "antisemitism", making the sentence read, "Posts on the website often contain far-right content and conspiracy theories."
• Option 3: Remove "antisemitism" and "far-right content", making the sentence read, "Posts on the website often contain conspiracy theories."
• Option 4: Remove the entire sentence.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Same sentence, but with references:

Posts on the website often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories.

References

GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1: Retain the current wording. This sentence is well-sourced:

• Antisemitism

• "On Parler, users can see posts about MAGA fodder and QAnon, the pro-Trump conspiracy theory that asserts that some top Democrats are satanic pedophiles. Anti-Semitic theories abound." The New York Times, November 2020

• "Parler has attracted a range of right-wing extremists. Proud Boys, QAnon adherents, anti-government extremists (Oath Keepers, Three Percenters and militia) and white supremacists (from members of the alt right to accelerationists) openly promote their ideologies on the site, while Holocaust denial, antisemitism, racism and other forms of bigotry are also easy to find." Anti-Defamation League, November 2020

• "Parler is full of fury, fear and conspiracy theories. What’s more, the platform doesn’t have the technology or resources necessary to contain the Jew-hatred and Islamophobia so easily found there." The Forward, July 2019

• "Antisemitic conspiracy theories about Mark Zuckerberg and George Soros are also commonplace. Many users are also vocal supporters of Mr Trump, and have developed far-right communities on the platform. Upon signing up to the website, Parler recommended trends that were popular “right now” included #trumptweetsmatter, #kukluxklan, #georgesoros and #covidiots." The Independent, June 2020 (partially based on the reporting by The Forward, but also adds its own information)

• "It’s easy to find anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and pro-conspiracy theory hashtags" New Statesman, June 2020

• "Searches on an array of racist or anti-semitic terms at Parler turned up troves of accounts and comments." Deccan Chronicle, July 2020

• "The lack of guidelines on hate speech has allowed racism and anti-Semitism to flourish on Parler." The Conversation, November 2020 (also published by PBS NewsHour in early December 2020)

• Far-right content

• "These words, which are accompanied by a caricature of a large-nosed, yarmulke-wearing Jew, read like the kind of white supremacist screed you’d find in one of the corners of the internet known for hatred and bigotry. They’re not on Gab or 4chan, though — they’re on a new, growing platform called Parler News.... Parler is full of fury, fear and conspiracy theories. What’s more, the platform doesn’t have the technology or resources necessary to contain the Jew-hatred and Islamophobia so easily found there." The Forward, July 2019

• "Billed as a defiant alternative to Twitter, the app has become synonymous with the alt-right and is gaining ground in the UK.... Despite its lunges at self-awareness through its branding and message, Parler exists as an echo chamber for hard-right views." New Statesman, June 2020

• Not easily quotable, but The Bulwark describes Parler as home to racist content and conspiracy theories about George Floyd's murder as well as about Jews and the Holocaust. The Bulwark, June 2020

• "For the most part, those who regularly use Parler appear to be conservative, alt-right and far right." Houston Chronicle, November 2020

• "However, Parler hosts many far-right figureheads who have been removed from other platforms... Many users are also vocal supporters of Mr Trump, and have developed far-right communities on the platform." The Independent, June 2020 (partially based on the reporting by The Forward, but also adds its own information)

• "And while Parler says it is unbiased—Matze is offering a $20,000 “progressive bounty” for a popular liberal pundit to join—it’s evidently become an unofficial home to the far right, which has long claimed to be mistreated by mainstream platforms.... That Parler has been reportedly banning users en masse this week only further illuminates the façade of free speech on the platform; but regardless of the extent to which one can or cannot “Parley” whatever they want, the fact remains that the platform is becoming an important space for the American far right." Slate, July 2020 (not cited in article due to citebombing concerns, but could be added)

• "The Russian troll farm central to Moscow's 2016 U.S. election interference campaign appears to be behind a new operation targeting U.S. voters on Gab and Parler, social media platforms favored by the far right." Axios, October 2020 (not cited in article due to citebombing concerns, but could be added)

• "Parler has a 'discover news' section that recommends headlines from far-right blogs and news aggregators." Business Insider, November 2020 (not cited in article due to citebombing concerns, but could be added)

• "We have monitored far-right communities on Parler since March and have found frequent use of both obvious white supremacist terms and more implicit, evasive memes and slang. For example, among other explicit white supremacist content, Parler allows usernames referencing the Atomwaffen Division’s violentlty anti-Semitic slogan, posts spreading the theory that Jews are descended from Satan, and hashtags such as “HitlerWasRight.”.... This results in comment threads on politicians’ posts that are a melting pot of far-right beliefs, such as a response to Donald Trump Jr.’s unfounded allegations of election crimes that states, “Civil war is the only way to drain the swamp.”" The Conversation, November 2020 (not cited in article due to citebombing concerns, but could be added)

• Conspiracy theories

• "It’s easy to find anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and pro-conspiracy theory hashtags" New Statesman, June 2020

• "Parler is full of fury, fear and conspiracy theories." The Forward, July 2019

• Not easily quotable, but The Bulwark describes Parler as home to racist content and conspiracy theories about George Floyd's murder as well as about Jews and the Holocaust. The Bulwark, June 2020

• "As A-list internet conservatives lost interest in Parler, the site became a haven for conspiracy theorists. On Tuesday, a list of suggested topics on Parler included “#Pizzagate,” the conspiracy theory that has inspired two violent attacks on a Washington pizzeria. Promoters of the QAnon conspiracy theory, which imagines Donald Trump violently purging his enemies in the Democratic Party, have flocked to the site." The Daily Beast, October 2020

• "Parler is a different kind of social network. Racism runs wild. Hate speech is protected. Conspiracy theories bloom." The Times, October 2020

• "The first "mass migration" of right-wing users from major social networks to Parler happened in June, after a number of accounts that posted misleading content about Covid-19 and George Floyd protests got banned from the bigger social media sites. Thousands of supporters of the QAnon conspiracy theory have joined in in the last few weeks, after Facebook, Instagram and YouTube took sweeping action against them in early October." BBC News, November 2020

• "It’s a right-wing echo chamber where mainly older white people exchange right-wing memes and conspiracy theories about liberals, Democrats, and the causes and beliefs typically associated with them." Fast Company, June 2020

• "Hashtags on Parler denoting Trump’s favorite conspiracy theories — #Dominion, #Sharpiegate, #QAnon — trend freely, without the restrictions Twitter and Facebook have instituted to suppress them." Politico, November 2020

Although I believe this latest iteration on the perennial discussion about this sentence was begun in bad faith (by the user accusing me and another user of engaging in undisclosed paid editing on behalf of Twitter), I think this should be settled via formal consensus so we don't have to keep revisiting this every few months. The latest discussion only mentioned removing "antisemitism" (option 2) but I included options 3 and 4 just for completeness' sake.

The claim made above that the level of antisemitism/far-right content found on Parler is not unusual or substantially different than the level on Twitter or other social networks is unfounded, and the fact that it has been so prominently mentioned in sourcing justifies inclusion in the lead. First, this is not the place to discuss what should or shouldn't be included in other articles like Twitter, but furthermore, if reliable sources commented on the level of this kind of content on Twitter with the same prominence they do on Parler, I would support including it there, too. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—is there an advantage to compartmentalized thinking, in this instance? Why isn't this the "place to discuss what should or shouldn't be included in other articles like Twitter"? I understand that we can discuss that on the Twitter Talk page. But an apt comparison might be the ledes of these 2 articles. The CEO of Twitter was subpoenaed to appear before the US Senate Commerce Committee for the blocking of the Hunter Biden laptop story among other issues. Is this mentioned in the lede? No. The lede of the Twitter article contains no criticism of that entity at all—only glowing claims of the Left-leaning entity's accomplishments. Bus stop (talk) 00:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

For many reasons, generally summarized at WP:OTHERCONTENT. Many editors here (myself included) have not been involved in editing the Twitter article nor particularly wish to be; furthermore, having a conversation here about changes to that article makes it harder for editors of that article to weigh in. If you think anything at the Twitter article ought to be changed, discuss it there, not here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:43, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

We are not "having a conversation here about changes to that article". As I've explained the ledes are comparable. Perhaps I should have said that the ledes may be comparable. Bus stop (talk) 00:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 Not seeing a reason to change here. Artw (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 The information in question is well sourced, as shown in detail by GorillaWarfare. IHateAccounts (talk) 04:37, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Its well source, there is no counter claim from any RS its not the case. Just because not all RS say the sea is wet does not mean its not.Slatersteven (talk) 10:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Apparently the RFE/RL source source from 22 October 2020 has used Option 1 text verbatim. Despite citing Reuters/The Independent, neither of those sources make this exact conclusion about posts on the website. One more example of citogenesis/trading up the chain. --Pudeo (talk) 11:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Option 2/4 Per my earlier comment in August. Only The Forward and New Statesman mention anti-semitism. This gives a lot of weight for these sources for it to appear in the lead, since plenty of heavier sources like BBC/WaPo have covered Parler and do not make the statement. The "often contain" wording is also not ideal as it's inaccurate (how often?). The gist, as I see it, is that they have had far-right hashtags trending and they allow some conspirational/far-right content that Twitter does not. It should be possible to convey this in the lead without trying to quantify whether the website has these posts often. But to make things more complex, the WaPo has published an article detailing how Parler in fact has stricter moderatation than Twitter when it comes to some areas. --Pudeo (talk) 11:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that article actually says that. Vaguely mentions bans for nudity and infighting? Does have someone say they prefer Parler to Twitter because content won't get defined as "hate speech". Artw (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not true that only The Forward and New Statesman mention anti-semitism—look at citation #9 in the sentence above. Deccan Chronicle and The Independent also support the claim. The RFE/RL sentence is not quite verbatim (RFE/RL uses "extremist" whereas this article does not) but you're right that it is awfully close... I'll remove it just to be safe. Regarding the comments on moderation, that topic is addressed at Parler#Content and moderation. While it's true that sources have pointed out some of Parler's rules are stricter than Twitters, they are generally commenting on Parler's more unusual rules (for example, forbidding "fighting words" and discussion of marijuana) rather than rules around hate speech. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Still, The Forward, New Statesman, The Independent and Deccan Chronicle are not top-tier sources like WaPo or BBC. Just yesterday BBC published a full article on Parler and they make no mention of antisemitism. If antisemitism was a defining feature that should be given weight to be in the lead, you would some top-tier source would mention it. Instead, they just write that "misinformation can spread more easily on the platform than on those with stricter rules". --Pudeo (talk) 18:42, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

If BBC/WaPo/etc. contradicted the claim, I would agree it shouldn't be included in the lead. But a source simply not commenting on antisemitism on the platform doesn't contradict four reliable sources that do. Thanks for pointing out the BBC article, though, I think there's some useful info in there. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:46, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. Wikipedia should tone down the commentary. We aren't opinion-makers. We are information-providers. Unless commentary rises to the level of being a fundamental component of what an entity is, such commentary should be confined to the body of an article. Is Parler fundamentally antisemitic? I reject the explanation provided above by GorillaWarfare that "the article is not describing the company Parler as anti-semitic". If the company fails to suppress antisemitism adequately, then the implication is that the company is antisemitic. In the body of the article we have ample space for documenting allegations about anti-Jewish activity noted at Parler. The lede is being abused when it includes language such as "Posts on the website often contain far-right content,[10] antisemitism,[13][discuss] and conspiracy theories." That's not what Wikipedia is for. The purpose of Wikipedia is different from that of a Billboard. Our raison d'être is not the promotion of the pet theories of our editors. Yes, we all have biases, but we should not be abusing the ledes of articles to advertise our opinions. Bus stop (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I shouldn't single out GorillaWarfare as I do in my above post. I am also in disagreement with Symmachus Auxiliarus, who wrote "it's not characterizing Parler, as a platform or company, as Anti-Semitic". If the company fails to suppress antisemitism adequately, then the implication is that the company is antisemitic. Bus stop (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4: Remove the entire sentence. The commonplace, the unsurprising, and the ubiquitous, don't belong in the lede. Wherever there is the exchange of ideas there will be overt or covert references to racism, antisemitism, transphobia, anti-Catholicism, and so on. This is par for the course. Heavily used social media sites inevitably have participants badmouthing other participants. If this is not overt then it is covert. It is virtually unavoidable. A lede is not a billboard. Its purpose is not to give prominence to quotidian observations. Bus stop (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4: Remove the entire sentence We all know why some people would like to cast aspersions on Parler. It is a right leaning website that is attempting to competing with a left wing social media monopoly. We should not bring our political biases into Wikipedia. Jroehl (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Jroehl: Up to you whether you take my advice or not, but when an uninvolved editor comes along to close this RfC, they will evaluate its result based on the strength of the arguments and not upon a simple count of "votes". Your argument would be much stronger if you chose to base it in Wikipedia policy rather than continuing your vague aspersions against the editors of this page, who you have baselessly claimed have a financial conflict of interest with respect to Twitter. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

  GorillaWarfare—policy is not dictating to us what goes in the lede and what gets omitted, and it is not uncommon to have discussions over whether something belongs in the lede or not. I have pointed to Twitter for constructive comparison. Its lede contains not a trace of criticism. Its lede reads like a glowing review of Twitter's accomplishments. Contrast that with this article. This article's lede reads like a nearly nonstop complaint. Bus stop (talk) 19:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

  Policy absolutely does dictate what goes in articles/leads (WP:NPOV being a major one), as do guidelines like MOS:LEAD. As for Twitter, as I've already said, I would recommend raising any concerns with Twitter's lead at Talk:Twitter. WP:OTHERCONTENT. I have no issue with discussing what should or should not go in the lead, however Jroehl's arguments so far have been almost entirely made up of baseless accusations against editors rather than any content-based argument. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare >>YouSaid>> "Jroehl's arguments so far have been almost entirely made up of baseless accusations against editors"

That is obviously and demonstrably a lie. My argument is that I love Wikipedia and it should not be used to advance your political agenda by slandering millions of people baselessly. You should go and post on Twitter to express your political proclivities. Jroehl (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—you are saying to Jroehl "Your argument would be much stronger if you chose to base it in Wikipedia policy". And you are saying "Policy absolutely does dictate what goes in articles/leads". Policy can only offer guidance. As to specifics, we we must discuss specifics if we disagree. I am not necessarily "raising any concerns with Twitter's lead". My aim is in trimming back or eliminating possibly undue criticism in this article's lede. I don't think there is any harm in being mindful of the 2 article's ledes by way of contrast and comparison. Bus stop (talk) 19:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

You're certainly welcome to take that stance; I'm just pointing out it historically doesn't carry much weight in discussions like these. Especially when you seem to be simultaneously trying to argue that this article's lead ought to be more like Twitter's and that there are major flaws with the Twitter lead (unless you are saying that Twitter's lead reading like a glowing review of the organization's accomplishments is something we should be striving for in articles about companies/web software, but I don't think you are). GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—why would the Twitter article have no criticism in the lede and the Parler article have plenty of criticism in the lede? Bus stop (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Repeatedly raising false equivalence arguments is a sign of bad faith. Twitter has over a decade of history on Parler, and hundreds of times the users and employees. It also likely has thousands of times the number of reliable sources. We summarize what reliable sources actually say, not what we think they should say, and certainly not based on an arbitrary comparisons between two completely different companies. Grayfell (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

So to make the Parler slanderers happy, we should put in the first paragraph of Twitters Wikipedia article:

"Posts on the website (Twitter) often DO NOT contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories."

And we know this because of 3 obscure opinion pieces from 3 obscure left wing websites. That way we will not have to be confused between the two websites. That is what an Encyclopedia is for, right? Jroehl (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Your personal lack of familiarity with those sources doesn't make them "obscure", it doesn't make them opinion pieces, and most importantly, it doesn't make them unreliable. Grayfell (talk) 01:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1: Retain the current wording. - Antisemitism can be found many social media platforms, but it is a defining trait of Parler, per cited sources. Arguments that the inclusion of reliably-sourced traits must be politically motivated is not persuasive and is contrary to Wikipedia's policies. Grayfell (talk) 22:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

  Grayfell >>YouSaid>> defining trait of Parler

  Could you show us where the phrase "defining trait" is located in Wikipedia policy? How do you know that hatred of Jews is a trait of Parler.com contributors? Could you please access Parler.com and post, here, on this thread, 3 Parler.com posts that are Jew hating? From 3 different users. Give us the post ID, username and date. At least that will give us a starting point to figure out this very interesting issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jroehl (talk • contribs) 00:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

This would be original research, and is not appropriate. Honestly, this is starting to become a bit disruptive. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 00:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

It is absolutely WP:OR. Multiple reliable sources discuss this site specifically or exclusively because of its bigoted content, specifically antisemitism. The purpose of the article is to summarize sources. It doesn't matter whether or not this matches our first-hand experiences, because that's WP:OR. Further, sources which discuss Parler for other reasons also commonly mention its extremist and fringe content for context.

As for three examples of antisemitic content on Parler, even Matze says "he wasn't surprised it was there."[1] Per The Independent article, "Antisemitic conspiracy theories about Mark Zuckerberg and George Soros are also commonplace."[2] This directly and unambiguously supports the current wording in the lead. Grayfell (talk) 01:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

We go with what RS say (read wp:v), not our own research.Slatersteven (talk) 10:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

"We go with what RS say" in the body of the article but not necessarily in the lede. See Twitter for comparison—nothing critical of Twitter is found in the lede. Bus stop (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

That is simply not true. Leads of articles must summarize the article body. If the lead of the Twitter article is not doing that, please do what I've suggested multiple times now and raise it at Talk:Twitter; don't suggest that because one article isn't following Wikipedia convention, other articles shouldn't either. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, the majority of coverage of Twitter is not criticisms of its handling of anti-semitic posts and other similarly bigoted posts. The majority of coverage of Parler is its status as a "twitter alternative" that deliberately has attracted figures that were banned from other networks for outright hate speech. IHateAccounts (talk) 22:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—why would the Twitter article have no criticism in the lede and the Parler article have plenty of criticism in the lede? Bus stop (talk) 22:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I can tell you the Parler article has criticism in the lead because it is prominently mentioned across the sourcing. IHateAccounts has suggested one theory for why Twitter may not have criticism in its lead; I would suggest, yet again, that you ask the folks who actually wrote the Twitter article that question, not me. If you think repeatedly asking the same question is somehow going to convince me it's appropriate to discuss the content of Twitter here, it will not; I will continue to suggest you discuss it with people who actively edit that article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

IHateAccounts—you refer to "similarly bigoted posts". There is not one definition of "bigoted". It can vary by the speaker. The Left will call something bigoted that the Right might not call bigoted. This applies to the term "racist" as well. Bus stop (talk) 22:43, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bus stop: I can't imagine that you don't know the kind of behavior that got (for example) Laura Loomer, Alex Jones, Milo Yiannopoulos, Tila Tequila, or Steve Bannon banned from sites such as Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. IHateAccounts (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

You say "That is simply not true. Leads of articles must summarize the article body." This would be incorrect. Material found in the bodies of articles commonly finds no representation whatsoever in the ledes of those articles. Bus stop (talk) 22:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

If I had meant that every fact in the article body must be repeated in the lead, I would have said that. That's why I used the word "summarize". The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. The eight sources describing the content of Parler posts qualifies it as among the "most important contents", and per the guideline that [The lead] should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.) it should be included there. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 - The sourcing for "antisemitic" is solid and convincing, which is what is required for inclusion in Wikipedia articles. The suggestions to remove the other descriptors -- which are also well-sourced -- is nothing but pure attempt at white-washing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken—how would it be "white-washing" if this was included in the body of the article but not the lede? Bus stop (talk) 20:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Because many people come to Wikipedia to get a quick overview of the subject they're interested in, and those people don't read the entire body, they read the lede and then go on their way. Taking it out of the lede is essentially burying it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken—you can't do these two things at once. They are incompatible. You are either primarily interested in informing the reader or you are primarily interested in influencing the reader. To be informed, readers must read the article; to be influenced, as by a billboard, readers need merely read the lede. Bus stop (talk) 01:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

MOS:LEAD specifically says we should present the important information about a topic in the lead because many editors don't read past it. The lead is the first thing most people will read upon arriving at an article, and may be the only portion of the article that they read... The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 - I didn't know about parler before this RFC. Reading the lead, I got a good idea of what I was dealing with. If this sentence were deleted, I would not fully understand the nature of Parler. Similarly, including "antisemitism" helps me get a full understanding of the kind of posts on the site. The key, as has been said, is whether these descriptions of the site are in fact sourced, balanced, and don't have POV. In this case, I think this is in fact an objective description of the site.Coastside (talk) 18:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Adequately sourced, clearly written, as unemotionally toned as possible. It's a good Wikipedia sentence. XOR'easter (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Addendum Concerns have been raised that the lede of this article is too dissimilar to that of the article Twitter. I must confess I do not follow the argument here. The two are different corporations, founded years apart by different people with different target audiences. It only stands to reason that they would receive differing coverage, thus affecting the material included in their articles here and summarized in their respective ledes. The "Neutral" in "NPOV" means that we faithfully reflect the available sources, not that we strive to make all items in the same category sound as similar as possible. In fact, it would be easier to argue that Twitter, an old article that has probably accumulated considerable cruft and might stand a good cleaning, ought to have a revised lede — but the place to discuss that is Talk:Twitter, not here. XOR'easter (talk) 18:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@XOR'easter: After a lot of reading it appears that the focus on "but but Twitter" comments is coming from individuals such as Jroehl and Bus stop who have a conservative POV with a false equivalence mentality that sees Twitter as "the Left-leaning micro-blogging organization" and Parler as "the Right-leaning micro-blogging organization" [3]. It very much feels to me like their goal is to have the Wikipedia article on Parler portray the two as equivalents in all respects, actual Wikipedia:Reliable sources coverage be damned, and that this is coming from a position of WP:BATTLE mentality with "Parler vs. Twitter" being a proxy for a larger battle they are trying to fight. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The NYT flatly states of Parler, "Anti-Semitic theories abound." Isaac, Mike; Browning, Kellen (November 11, 2020). "Fact-Checked on Facebook and Twitter, Conservatives Switch Their Apps". New York Times. Retrieved November 11, 2020. XOR'easter (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Nice find, I'll add that to my sources list, and to the article when the full-protection expires. Looks like it's got an updated user count, too! GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:56, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• You go to other social media wikis...do you see descriptions of hate speech from individual posters to describe an entire site? The basis of the page is to describe the platform, not the content posted by individuals. Geremy Hebert (talk | contribs) 01:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Geremy.Hebert: No, the purpose of the page is to reflect what has been said about Parler in reliable sources. Stop edit warring the material out of the lead; this RfC is still open and you do not get to unilaterally decide the result. When discussion has ended and the RfC is closed by an uninvolved editor, the lead will be updated if needed. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  Noting Geremy.Herbert has been blocked and can't reply here for a few days, see WP:AN3#User:Geremy.Hebert reported by User:GorillaWarfare (Result: Blocked 48 hours). GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:49, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

  User has since been indeffed. Not sockpuppetry-related so I haven't struck or removed their comments. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• It is inappropriate to include charges of "antisemitism" here. Ultimately, it comes off as a very politically motivated accusation, given that most social media sites face similar issues of certain users posting racist/bigoted content. The burden of proof falls on the one making the proposition, and there is little support for the "antisemitism" claim outside of sources which are inherently subjective, opinion-based, or political. It's important to avoid the "guilt by association" problem - an entire site should not be labeled as "antisemitic" due to the activity of a minority, especially given that the site is regularly used by prominent politicians and public figures who clearly condemn antisemitism. A conservative, dispassionate description of Parler would omit the term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzaooo (talk • contribs) 04:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC) — Jzaooo (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. — Jzaooo (talk • contribs) is blocked for having used sockpuppets in this debate.

  @Jzaooo: No one is saying Parler itself is antisemitic, or that all content/posters on the site. Simply that it is a common theme among posts there, which is supported by sourcing. If you think sourcing supports similar statements in articles about social media sites, feel free to suggest it at their talk pages, but it is not particularly relevant to this discussion (see WP:OTHERCONTENT). GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 The existing wording of the sentence in question is reasonable in phrasing, clear in scope, and well-supported by reliable sources. As of the time of this post, I don't see a convincing argument for its alteration or removal in this discussion that isn't based in some form of logical fallacy; I say that not as an indictment of any editor who has posted in this discussion, but rather as an assertion that the logical course of action based on the cited sources and on Wikipedia policy is to retain the current wording. As stated in MOS:LEAD, the lead should "stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic" and "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Emphasis mine. Please be sure to use a ping template if replying to me directly, as I don't have this page on my watchlist. warmly, ezlev. talk 06:48, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4 All other options are obvious WP:NPOV violations. Nuke (talk) 19:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Do you mind explaining how they are NPOV violations? GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 as per GorillaWarfare's arguments. Everything I have seen arguing for option 4 seems to lean on ideological ideas of what Wikipedia should or should not say, rather than any actual evidence or sources to support removal. Smith(talk) 22:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 per sources. Gamaliel (talk) 22:47, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 per sources. Not impressed with people trying to push a camel through a needle's eye on "NPOV" here.--Jorm (talk) 23:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 2 correct me if I'm wrong but the only RS to include the current text about antisemitism appears to be The Forward. Yodabyte (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Yodabyte: That's not correct—The Forward, The Independent, The New Statesman, and The Deccan Chronicle all support it in-text currently, as does a new source from The New York Times. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2 or 4 per Pudeo. If it must be mentioned, saying "often" is a much more dubious claim than simply saying something like "known for" or "has been characterized by". Putting it in the lede is undue weight, considering the more reliable sources didn't mention it. Benjamin (talk) 06:25, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  The New York Times is about as reliable as a source for this is going to get, and it says quite flatly "Anti-Semitic theories abound" (moreover, in such a context that it's clear the NYT regards that as one of the most significant things a reader should know on the subject). XOR'easter (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  Just noting that the NYT article you mention was published after this RfC. But I agree that this source is finally one which supports inclusion in the lead. I strongly think that a handful of mid-tier or progressive sources like The Forward or New Statesman definitely did not warrant enough weight. Whether antisemitism specifically is a defining feature to be featured in the lead is still up for debate, I suppose, since most top-tier sources, until this NYT article, have not mentioned it. --Pudeo (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

  What would you think of a compromise solution of adding words like "described by some in the media as", rather than stating it directly in the encyclopedic voice? Benjamin (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

There is only one reference to Jews or antisemitism in the entire NY Times article: "Anti-Semitic theories abound." That's it. I don't see how that one sentence supports placement of a serious charge in the lede of this article. Bus stop (talk) 17:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

It's a brief statement, but the context indicates that the NYT, a newspaper of record, indicates that point to be one of the most salient things a reader should know about the site. By itself, that's just one data point; in combination with the other sources, it strengthens the case for inclusion in the lede. XOR'easter (talk) 17:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

XOR'easter—from where do you derive that "the context indicates...that point to be one of the most salient things a reader should know about the site"? Every social media platform is going to have antisemitic sentiments expressed. Rather than being "one of the most salient things a reader should know" it is of relatively minor importance. Bus stop (talk) 18:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply; I lost track of the conversation amid all the updates to this page. To try and elaborate on my point: when the NYT article explains what can be found on Parler, it lists "MAGA" content, QAnon and anti-Semitism, and then mentions a few prominent people who have Parler accounts. This seems pretty clearly to indicate that the NYT finds the presence of anti-Semitic theories a salient aspect of what goes on at Parler. What matters here is not that anti-Semitism can be found across the social-media landscape, but that a staid newspaper finds it sufficiently prevalent that it's one of the three things they tell their readers can be found there. XOR'easter (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 2. Anecdotally, I haven't seen more than 2 antisemitic posts since joining in July and using it daily. I've seen more than that on Twitter. Far-right, conspiracy language is much more accurate as this is confirmed in the references and anecdote, best not to get into specific conspiracies - unless you talk about MAGA, as the theme is everywhereTuffStuffMcG (talk) 13:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say, not anecdotal data from one editor. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  What GorillaWarfare said — reliance upon personal anecdotes is against Wikipedia policy. XOR'easter (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  However you get banned for it on Twitter, indeed it is the fact they cannot be racist that caused so many of them to fetch up on Parler.Slatersteven (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  Slatersteven—you are saying a wish to engage in racism has "caused so many of them to fetch up on Parler". I think there are other reasons people have mixed feelings about using Twitter, namely censorship. The CEO of Twitter was subpoenaed to appear before the US Senate Commerce Committee for the blocking of the Hunter Biden laptop story among other issues. Bus stop (talk) 19:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

  The big move occurred before that as I recall. But this is why we do not allow OR (which is kind of my point, no users OR can trump anothers).Slatersteven (talk) 19:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I would not change anything to match my anecdotal experience, but my experience can inform how I believe it should be changed. Sources say lots of things. General terms should be used to avoid stridency, unless the evidence is significant and compelling. Words like fascism and antisemitism refer to specific things, and their use tells us more about the editor than the service.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 14:51, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Many, many reliable sources criticize twitter for "troves" of anti-semitic material as well, which would meet the "often" definition - but I wouldnt want it in Twitter's lede as it would be tangentially related to the service and derogatory.

I'm not suggesting a synthesis of sources, but rather the most general sources that get to the heart of the service's modus operandi; first amendment protected expression. If you want to focus on the most controversial and common type of expression, then fine - but don't get so specific when many reliable sources didn't feel the need to

https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-filled-with-anti-semitic-tweets-targeting-jewish-congress-members-study-says/

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

And right at the top of that article "The Anti-Defamation League is urging the social network to remove anti-Semitic tweets faster.", so they do not allow antisemitism, that is the claim about Parler, they allow it.Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing." - I could agree more. I'm here because I want to help make wikipedia informative and resist battleground language which has been added to many articles; using questionable sources or poor judgement. I'm trying to cut out propaganda from all sides. Stewardship is goodTuffStuffMcG (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

"from all sides" would be a false equivalence gambit, and I'm pretty sure your claim is belied by your attempts to insert wording claiming that Twitter is "far-left" into that article [4] I also wonder why you made the claim "new user deleted the term without discussion" when it was reversion of an obvious vandalism edit [5] [6] IHateAccounts (talk) 18:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I would not change anything to match my anecdotal experience, but my experience can inform how I believe it should be changed. This doesn't make sense, particularly given you just voted for option 2 based on your anecdotal experience. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

We are not here to discus users conduct, here (or anywhere else).Slatersteven (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I didn't change anything. You asked people to vote on which of the 4 options we preferred. Presumably you provided option 2 because you believed it was a potentially legitimate argument to be weighed against the others.

If we weren't supposed to choose it, why was it offered?TuffStuffMcG (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

My point is that you appear to be basing your choice off anecdotal experience, which doesn't gybe with your statement that you "would not change anything to match my anecdotal experience". You're more than welcome to pick any choice you like for any reason you like—hell, you can pick an option because the gremlin that lives in your walls told you to if you want. But the closer will evaluate the result based on the weight of results that are supported by Wikipedia policy. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

TuffStuffMcG—I hope you won't mind if I add bolding to your vote. I am doing that now. Bus stop (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

yes, please bold my option.

Anecdote may have directed my choice, but I selected it because reliable sources directly supported it. We use our own subjective mind to attempt to determine which supported words to use, and which to leave out. Have you decided to omit other types of permitted Parler discussion that are backed up by reliable sources? Choices must be made about which words to use in the lede somehow.

The "no anecdote" rule is to avoid using personal experience AS as source of information. You can use personal experience or knowledge to determine which objectively and reliably sourced material is most appropriate in a summary, No?

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

No. We weight content in articles based on its prominence in reliable sources, not anecdata. Per policy, Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—you are quoting from WP:WEIGHT. This says nothing about whether something should appear in the lede. Bus stop (talk) 20:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT applies to all parts of an article, including the lead. Per MOS:LEADREL, According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. This is true for both the lead and the body of the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare—you are referring to "relative emphasis" and "relative importance"—not whether something should be included in or omitted from the lede. You are referring to policy that tells us to apply appropriate weight to various components of a lede. That policy is not suggesting what material should be included or excluded from a lede. That policy is cautioning us to apply proportionate and therefore appropriate weight to the various components of a lede. Bus stop (talk) 21:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I genuinely can't follow what you're saying here. Are you trying to say that WP:WEIGHT applies only when deciding how to present content that editors have already decided should go in the lead, but not to making the decision whether to include something? GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

MOS:LEADREL, which you linked to and quoted from, is cautioning us to apply appropriate weight to each component of the lede but it is not offering guidance on what to include in the lede. Bus stop (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

So you are saying you don't think WP:WEIGHT applies when deciding what should be included in the lead? For what it's worth, I do think that MOS:LEADREL is saying that. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

• Door #1 - The Anti-Semitic content is amply well-sourced and is part of the defining context in which Parler and its users operate. The current wording should be retained. SPECIFICO talk 20:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option #1 -- a very straightforward matter of proper sourcing. The arguments favouring removal are entirely special-pleading. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 It's very clear to me that multiple strong sources have confirmed that antisemitic content is common on the Parler platform. I am strongly in favor of the current language remaining in place. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, obviously, per GorillaWarfare's thorough(-as-always) research. I see no comments for other options that are based in either policy or evidence. — Bilorv (talk) 10:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 seems the correct choice here. It is well-supported by reliable sources. The strongest serious point of opposition to this is the claim that the word 'often' is not rigorous encyclopaedic language. I share this discomfort - in the context of social media posts, it is unclear whether 1-in-100 posts being antisemitic would be considered 'often', for instance. If there was a more explicit term used in the sources, then I would favour that. However, the sources themselves use terms like 'abound' and 'commonplace', which are analogous to 'often', so I do think its usage is justified as a result. Finally, arguments around this comment being unsuitable I don't find convincing. The line succinctly summarises information about the nature of the content on Parler. As such, its inclusion is appropriate. I think the best way forwards is to stick with option 1, and if there emerge good sources which support a more explicit wording than 'often' then a change to a more explicit wording may be reasonable at that time. Awoma (talk) 13:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4This sentence is founded on data that can be considered opinionated and should be moved to a separate section lower on the page. As an encyclopedia entry, facts that do not change over time should be the main target for the article. As with any unmoderated social media platform, the content produced by user can change over time.12.227.66.34 (talk) 18:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  What policy is As an encyclopedia entry, facts that do not change over time should be the main target for the article based on? There are a hell of a lot of Wikipedia articles that would need substantial rewrites if this was actually the case. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  GorillaWarfare—I think what they (12.227.66.34) are referring to are assertions that change by the day, for instance is the lede of the article going to continue to say a year from now "Parler has a significant user base of Trump supporters"? Bus stop (talk) 19:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  Given that that's been in place as long as the article has existed (since May 28, 2019‎) and continues to be supported by sources published in the past few days, that's a pretty bad example of "assertions that change by the day". Wikipedia articles are fluid, and change as new sources are published and the weight among sources shifts -- for example I recently removed the observation about the proportion of Saudi nationalists because that is no longer widely described as a significant portion of their userbase. We expect Wikipedia articles will change over time; that is no reason to leave salient descriptors out of the lead. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:01, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, Trump has been in office "since May 28, 2019". Bus stop (talk) 20:29, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

  Gorilla, see "WP:Reliability". Specifically, "Age Matters". "Sometimes sources are too new to use, such as with breaking news (where later reports might be more accurate)" Most of the cited sources are relatively new articles referenceing a certain time period depicting the group(s) of people using Parler. In this case, I still recommed that the sentence should be moved lower in the article with a point being made that these are the types of users found on Parler during this year/month/time frame. This has no place to be the defining feature as it is subject to change. I would only recommend this sentence stay if Parler has had the same user base from its inception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.227.66.34 (talk) 01:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  This RfC is not about the sentence describing the userbase. However I am impressed that somehow in the same conversation we have a person arguing the sentence should be removed because the sources are too old and one arguing it should be removed because they are too new. As for "I would only recommend this sentence stay if Parler has had the same user base from its inception", you're in luck—sources have been pretty consistent on Trump supporters and conservative and far-right people using Parler. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:34, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 due to Gorilla's meticulous sourcing. There's really no debate here; WP:V is policy. --WMSR (talk) 02:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 lots of sources, and easy to find. We shouldn't be kowtowing to racists. At the same time, we should consider banning those that consistently try and defend and hide racism. Nfitz (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 It can be easily argued that Facebook and Twitter have more conspiracy theories and antisemitism hosted on their websites simply because those two are much bigger social media platforms. Twitter is also notorious for having a user base that is much further left than offline communities, yet there is nothing written on their respective article on such. Considering Parler does not actively advertise themselves as a safe space for the right and do allow people on the political left to congregate as well, I do not see how this is relevant enough to be put at the very top of the article. Perhaps for a separate "Controversies" section further down the article, but not as one of the first few sentences; otherwise it's a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. -- zaiisao ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

  Twitter's article doesn't say the platform is known for often hosting hard-left content because there would be no sources supporting such a statement. Wikipedia is driven by an accurate reflection of reliable sources. Awoma (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

  This article is about Parler, not Twitter. If reliable sources actually indicate that Twitter is a wretched hive of Bolshevism, then the place to discuss that is at Talk:Twitter. Moreover, advertising themselves as a safe space for the right sums up Parler's marketing campaign pretty well, and whether they do allow people on the political left to congregate is much in dispute [7][8]. Also, separate sections for "Controversies" are generally frowned upon. XOR'easter (talk) 18:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4 - At this point I have to go with 4. Going through the sources provided there are issues lacking context and not proper attributing sources. Then there is the over generalization with "often contains". Sorry I just cannot get behind the wording as purposed. The more I read the sources and the discussion above I have to think this is more of a cherry picking and right great wrongs issue. PackMecEng (talk) 05:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - per GorillaWarfare, Grayfell, and ezlev. starship.paint (talk) 13:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2. I agree with the supporters of option 1 that "antisemitic" is reasonably sourced. I also think the arguments that it's being weighted very heavily at present are not totally unreasonable and am ok with option 2. I also also think that the information that Parler bills itself as a "free speech" platform belongs in the first paragraph of the lead, rather than the second (this self-description is represented in pretty much all reporting on Parler I happen to have come across, given similar prominence to the fact that it's overrun by rwnjs). --JBL (talk) 16:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Question: What are your thoughts regarding Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies Applies in relation to Parler's claims of being a "free speech platform"? IHateAccounts (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I think it's not a great fit to this case. It would be a good reason to exclude from the lead statements from Parler directly disputing that it is home to white nationalism or antisemitism, for example, but this self-description is too indirectly related to the criticism for that to work. (AFAICT no one believes that Parler is a close comparator of Stormfront, where the nasty bits are the whole point rather than something that will kind of inevitably come along for the ride.) In my opinion, the attribution of the self-description is an adequate way of dealing with its self-servingness. --JBL (talk) 17:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I don't think anyone says it's a close comparator to Stormfront... but it's a very close comparator to Gab, far more comparable to that than to Twitter. https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/11/11/parler-mewe-gab-social-media-trump-election-facebook-twitter/6232351002/ "But, much like the social media site Gab, Parler has quickly attracted the extremist crowd in addition to self-proclaimed center-right conservatives like Read. Groups from the far-right Proud Boys, which includes large numbers of white supremacists, to heavily armed anti-government militias have gathered on the site to spread conspiracy theories, racist memes and false claims of election fraud. " IHateAccounts (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Sorry, the point of my analogy was not very clear (my fault), and as I started to write a clearer explanation I came to realize that this is not important enough to me to be worth the effort. Suffice it to say, when I am made the emperor of Wikipedia, after I get done handling all the really important questions like how to render the square root symbol in math articles, I will eventually rewrite the lead section of this article slightly (but only slightly) differently from how it is written now :). --JBL (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  My choice to order the lead the way it is now is primarily based on the fact that I think any description of Parler as a "free speech platform" needs to be accompanied by the fairly widespread reporting on their stricter-than-advertised moderation policies. To move this further up in the lead would mean interjecting it into the description of the users and content on the platform, which I think makes it read fairly unnaturally. However if you have suggestions for how it could be worded more legibly I would have no objections to the statements being moved, so long as they are kept together. If you're interested in continuing this discussion it might be worthwhile to start a new section, just since it's a bit tangential to the topic of the RfC. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  I think it may be important to see if there is Wikipedia:Reliable sources coverage of what these platforms mean when they claim they are about "free speech" because Gab literally used the same advertising campaign [9]. Similarly, I don't know if this WSJ coverage is already reflected? https://www.wsj.com/articles/parler-backed-by-mercer-family-makes-play-for-conservatives-mad-at-facebook-twitter-11605382430 IHateAccounts (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) I agree with you that the refutation cannot also be injected into the first paragraph in a good way. Basically, I think "they say they are a free-speech platform" is present in everything I've ever read about the site, as is "in fact they are a haven for rwnjs", but that "in fact they have more restrictive moderation than they advertise" is much less widely noted, and that our readers will survive having this information delayed until the second paragraph. But see also my comment just above for the (extremely low) level of effort I plan to expend on this subject -- if I really cared, I would take you up on the suggestion to start a new section, but it's just not that important to me :). Thanks both for the polite back-and-forth. --JBL (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

  Fair enough! Thanks for giving your thoughts anyway, and good luck with fighting the good fight on square root symbols GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment — If there's a concern about WP:NPOV, is it possible to add phrasing to reiterate that the statement is being made off the preponderance of evidence from reliable sources? This takes the edge off a lead potentially appearing biased (I will note I strongly agree on a personal level, that website is a bigoted cesspit) while not diluting the factual matter. E.g.: The website has been widely criticized for a high volume of far-right, antisemitic, and conspiracy theory content. (optionally adding "... by media and nonprofits" or whatever. Just a thought! WhinyTheYounger (talk) 23:01, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - As with other editors, I have to note the sources presented by GorillaWarfare are very much adequate to support the three attributions. I also concur with Nomoskedasticity that it appears that many of the pro-Option-4 arguments seem to employ special pleading. BirdValiant (talk) 00:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 As far as I can observe the sources are old, ( worked with GorillaWarfare extensively on improving this article in the summer of this year. At the time of writing I believe we were correct in describing the platform. However it has undeniably diversified since then, and although much of that content can be found, I'm not confident in the "widespreadness" of it, and also noting the amount of users has doubled or even trippled. It it a contentious sentence and should be removed until we can identify new trends. Alexandre8 (talk) 10:23, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Alexandre8: Regarding the antisemitism point: two of the sources are from a week ago, three are from earlier this year (June and July 2020), and one is from July 2019. Regarding the other sources used in the sentence, they're all clearly dated above, but the total breakdown is: four published this month, two published in October 2020, five from mid-2020, and one from July 2019. The sources are quite current. Certainly if there is a major shift in content and/or overall makeup of the userbase we can reflect that when the sourcing supports it, but thinking that might happen (when strong sources continue to report on the same users/content being prevalent as before, and have not said anything I've seen about expecting such a change) is a poor reason to remove the sentence. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, the sourcing is up-to-date. We should not describe or imply a shift in the site's content unless the WP:RS we rely upon make statements to that effect. (And even if WP:NOR weren't policy, attempting to make inferences from an increased number of users would be a risky proposition. Would the site's demographics change if it were advertised primarily to the same groups who already used it? How many of the new users are persistently active? An influx of new accounts might or might not lead to a change of conversation topics.) XOR'easter (talk) 22:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

• I would support what User:WhinyTheYounger is suggesting. I feel like there are enough reliable sources commenting on the antisematic content on the website that it should be mentioned in the lead somewhere, but the present wording in the article feels a bit off. -- Ununseti (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Options 2-4, prefer 4 per WP:NPOV Here are some articles that mention antisemitism either briefly or not at all:
  • Gamal Abdel Nasser (took the Nazi Johann von Leers as an advisor World War 2). Yet antisemitism is not mentioned at all.
  • Ali Khamenei (Among other things, Iran under Khamenei sponsors the Houthis, whose motto includes the phrase "curse on the Jews". Yet antisemitism is mentioned briefly in the body, and not in WikiVoice).
  • Twitter (which hosts antisemitic tweets by Khamenei [10]). A brief examination of [11] shows numerous antisemitic tweets viewable as of right now.[12][13][14]
• Now WP:NPOV is a Pillar of Wikipedia. It should therefore trump mere policies. To the extent that policies allow one to have localized discussions that lead to a highly-visible discussion of antisemitism in the article for Parler, but little-to-no discussion of antisemitism in the above articles (especially the Khamenei article), that shows that the policies are not respecting the pillar, and we have a problem. We need to address it. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

So... WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't really an argument, and you seem to misunderstand or ignore WP:WEIGHT in referencing the three above. IHateAccounts (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The continued insistence that this article needs to be more like Twitter rather baffles me. XOR'easter (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Here is the point. If Wikipedia talks prominently about antisemitism in the lead of the Parler article but not in the articles I mention above, particularly the Khamenei article, we are looking at an elephant through a microscope and generally have our heads up our proverbial butts. We can have all the policies, sourcing rules, and so forth that we like, and follow them, but what readers notice is the absurdity of the final result.[15][16]. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

That's not exactly a perfect comparison. All three of those examples are notable and known for numerous other reasons. Parler is not. Antisemitism (along with conspiracy theories and the far-right) is one of the primary reasons anyone even knows what Parler is. If Twitter didn't ban people for posting the stuff that Parler allows, there would not have been the migration to, or publicity about, the platform. It is known because of controversy, and this is the substance of that controversy. NonReproBlue (talk) 12:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 obviously. It's well-sourced, and perhaps as important, no adequate sourcing that contradicts it. Ratatosk Jones (talk) 07:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 The sentence seems as if someone is trying to push an agenda and right a great wrong. The summary of the social media platform by CNET is well written. I like how they and other news articles such as VOA's article describe the site in a basic fashion without a series of loaded and biased words. I would say that this sentence is excessive and would remove it. Conservative, Trump, free speech, kicked off Twitter, right-wing personalities, no fact checking, misinformation, and the usual Fox kind of stuff -- those are the words I read most frequently about the users and content. --Guest2625 (talk) 09:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Just because antisemitism isn't mentioned in every reference doesn't negate that it's mentioned prominently in very significant references. Moreover, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; where is the reliable source stating that the antisemitism which was once present has abated? As for the "right a great wrong" concern, well, that would cut both ways — those arriving here from there seem to regard the prominent notice of antisemitism as a "great wrong" that needs to be righted. XOR'easter (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 Well sourced, accurate, and one of the primary reasons it has attracted notoriety. NonReproBlue (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4. claims seem somewhat undue imo, given the nature of the subject (the same thing could be said about just any other social media platform or the internet in general). - Daveout(talk) 19:32, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  Supposing that to be true, wouldn't that be an argument to add it to the lede of every article on social-media companies, not to remove it from this one? XOR'easter (talk) 20:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  Yes it would. But also it isn't really true due to two pertient facts: First, the fact that they specifically have rules prohibiting "false rumors". By continuing to allow prominent antisemitic conspiracy theories to promulgate given that fact, they are tacitly endorsing the idea that these theories are not false rumors. That sets them apart from other social media platforms. Second, they specifically and intentionally are providing a platform for people who's views are so extreme that they have already been banned from mainstream social media sites. So saying that the same things could be said about any other social media platform is not true. Twitter, facebook, and youtube do not provide platforms for people who have been banned from twitter, facebook, and youtube to post the same egregious material that got them banned. When the whole point of the platform is "People can say what the other platforms won't let them say", the argument "They are just saying the same things people on other platforms say" doesn't hold water. The fact that they specifically allow these things is pretty much the only thing that makes them notable. NonReproBlue (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  Wow, that's a lot of wp:OR. I'm not so sure about Parler's instances and rules regarding anti-semitism. [This forbes article for instance] - Daveout(talk) 22:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  That's a Forbes "contributor" piece, and those are not reliable sources. In any case, we're not describing their policies in the sentence being debated, but rather summarizing what RS's have said about how the site has turned out in practice. XOR'easter (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  Sure, it would be OR if I was suggesting we place that explanation into the article. Here on the talk page, I don't see how that is any more OR than your statement that "the same thing could be said about just any other social media platform", since I don't see you referencing any reliable sources that are saying that. In fact, it seems reliable sources, when they do discuss it, emphasize the differences between Parler and its mainstream counterparts, with a specific focus on antisemitism, conspiracy theories, and far right content(categories which very often overlap), because these are often the exact things that caused people to be banned on said mainstream platforms and migrate to Parler. I am simply explaining why there is a preponderance of RS reporting about the antisemitism, conspiracy theories, and far-right content that is allowed on the platform. Reliable sources have also brought up the inherent contradiction between the supposed "free speech without censorship" stance they use to justify allowing such content, and the reality of the incredibly restrictive rules that they use to censor speech that they disagree with. What they have chosen to allow, and disallow, is significant, and reliable sources report on and emphasize those aspects of the service. As a matter of fact, I would argue that what I said was less original research and more an accurate synthesis of what numerous reliable sources have already said. Which, here on the talk page, where we have to decide what to include by analyzing reliable sources, is absolutely appropriate. NonReproBlue (talk) 07:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  I don't see you referencing any reliable sources that are saying that. We don't need sources stating that the sky is blue. In any case, here we have Foward.com (one of the sources used to denounce anti-semitism on Parler) calling twitter a cesspit of anti-semitism. I'm simply skeptical of the claim that anti-semitism is significantly more common on Parler, apparently it is not "hard to find" only when you actively look for it. It's not like when you log-in a swastika jumps in your face.(apparently). - Daveout(talk) 08:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  Except that is an opinion piece. The piece on The Foreward that is being cited about Parler is not an opinion piece. Neither are the articles from numerous other reliable sources that say the same thing. Opinion pieces are not the same thing as actual reporting from reliable sources. NonReproBlue (talk) 13:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  And its from over a year ago, before Twitters purge of far right posters (when they all migrated to Parler).Slatersteven (talk) 13:12, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  Only if you think that mentioning each and every topic that occasionally pops up in social media is a good idea. (i don't think it is). - Daveout(talk) 22:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Sounds suspiciously like another "But Twitter" argument. The WP:WEIGHT of the Wikipedia:Reliable sources coverage is what matters. IHateAccounts (talk) 22:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

That's because nearly all sources here compare Parler to Twitter, so it's not a gratuitous case of "but twitter does it too..."; for instance, The Independent says: Twitter, by comparison, has been repeatedly criticised for not doing enough to curb racism, sexism, homophobia, and other issues on its platform. - Daveout(talk) 08:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• Sigh, apparently this is not a discussion about the word antisemitism itself, but a discussion about the entire organization of the lead? I didn't remove the word at all, and in fact left that sentence virtually untouched, but I prefer Door/option 5 - the version that existed after my bold reorganization. I disagree with the statement that the entire organization is under "active discussion" and as such my bold edit should be reverted altogether, especially given that this discussion here only has the option to keep/remove 3 words/phrases altogether, but if that's what people want, I encourage people to consider the version of the lead that existed after my edit. I have no problem with the sourcing for any of the three words/phrases in discussion here, but I do agree that it is WP:UNDUE to mention them in the first paragraph of the lead about a social network - which is almost always dedicated to information about the site itself and/or its ownership, not the content present on the site. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  This RfC is (as absurd as that may sound) technically only about the single word "antisemitism". Discussion of how the lede ought to be organized is a few sections down the page. XOR'easter (talk) 03:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 due to it being well-sourced. Jushyosaha604 (talk) 22:49, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - well sourced to the point where this shouldn't even be a question. Volunteer Marek 09:01, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 - don't see any policy based reasons to change this sentence that accurately represents how Parler is described in RS. There is lots of whataboutism instead of following RS. Rab V (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1-b The statement should remain in the lead, as it is appropriately sourced and has received significant coverage. However, this and the sentence that precedes it (i.e. the second and third sentence) should be moved to the end of the lead, so that the lead describes what Parler is before it describes the political leanings of its fan base and their postings. -Darouet (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I disagree heavily with this, for reasons described by multiple editors at Talk:Parler#Addressing_some_of_the_many_complaints_here_-_moving_second_sentence_towards_end_of_lead. The WP:WEIGHT of coverage is about what Parler actually is and the content it contains, not the WP:MANDY self-descriptions and advertising slogans it uses. IHateAccounts (talk) 01:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 The policy's clear, and should be enforced, no ambiguity here, it's very well sourced.Frond Dishlock (talk) 06:38, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 The sourcing is clear, unambiguous, and virtually unanimous. The arguments proffered to the contrary amount to special pleading. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 Per GorrilaWarfare and XOREaster. We should present an accurate summary of what reliable sources say about the topic in the article body, and the lede should be a summary of that article body. The presence of antisemitism, far-right content and conspiracy theories seems to be widely reported in reliable sources. The strongest argument against the inclusion of this sentence would be that including these labels in the lede gives undue weight to these aspects of the platform, but I don't think that holds water here. The mentions of antisemitism, etc. are not merely side notes in the reliable sources but are areas of focus and notability. SreySros (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4It is textbook UNDUE and does not accurately reflect the topic as it is currently being reflected by the immense majority of RS. It is one thing to collate a left of center conscensus from almost excluaively leftist sources but this latest push of some minority RS says therefore it belongs at or near the top of the page is intellectually destitute and wholly incongruent with the WP. WP does not exist for partisans to spite entities that they do not like.2601:46:C801:B1F0:EC1C:11B6:EAB6:23F2 (talk) 02:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• The above is the fourth edit by this IP, and is almost certainly an editor with an account editing while logged out to avoid responsibility for their edit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: See the /64 for a fuller picture. GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:11, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Interesting, when you look at the contributions of that range: I don't think I saw a single edit to an article. I may have missed one, but all I saw were edits to Talkspace and Wikipediaspace. Clearly, the IP is here for the purposes of ideological argumentation, and not for the improvement of the encyclopedia. That -- in and of itself -- should be sufficient for a WP:NOTHERE block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
      • @Beyond My Ken: That /64 range does look entirely like someone treating the website as a WP:FORUM. You got your BLM protests, your Breonna Taylor, your hydroxychloroquine, your Steele dossier, your Hunter Biden, etc. There's even the spam-like post on JzG's talkpage. It's almost a parody at this point. Why not bring it up at the Administrator's Incident board? Maybe someone could check for sockpuppetry as well. BirdValiant (talk) 03:33, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
  • That above edit is roughly between my 4000th and 5000th anon IP(never an account holder) edit here over the last 15yrs.2601:46:C801:B1F0:EC1C:11B6:EAB6:23F2 (talk) 08:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 4, I presume that the option-4 might be more appropriate for it, i.e. "Remove the entire sentence". Ali Ahwazi (talk) 16:24, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

  RFC responses are not simply votes, and should be based on policy, not on presumption (which by definition lacks clear, specific justification). Are there any policy based reasons you think that option 4 is the appropriate option? NonReproBlue (talk) 02:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1, the sentence is well sourced and in line with existing policy. Retswerb (talk) 05:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
• Reorder the content. The content in the lead is appropriate, but the structure of the lead section should be modified. The first paragraph should contain information about the service, how it functions, its features and policies. The second paragraph should contain information about its launch and why it was founded, its user base and popularity. Such a structure is easier for readers to follow: contrast this article with the lead sections of social networks like Instagram, Snapchat and Twitter. I support option 1, but it should not be the second sentence of the lead section. feminist (talk) 05:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1, well sourced and relevant. | MK17b | (talk) 17:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 1 best reflects how this is characterized by reliable sources. FWIW, looking at the sources and the article, I think the sentence could be improved: Parler is known for allowing and often containing far-right content, antisemitism, disinformation, and conspiracy theories like QAnon. 'Allowing' is the key differentiator versus mainstream sites, not 'containing', as Twitter et al often contain antisemitism. A significant part of this article is about disinformation, but that isn't mentioned in the lead. LaTeeDa (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

  LaTeeDa, those are good points. XOR'easter (talk) 18:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

  That's a good suggestion, though I prefer to avoid the "is known for" wording when possible. Not having much success rewording your suggestion to avoid that phrase, though. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

  What about "Parler allows posts containing far-right content, antisemitism, disinformation, and conspiracy theories like QAnon." That avoids using "known for" but gets the changes in.NonReproBlue (talk) 03:35, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

  That seems to be less than suitable. Simply saying "allows" does not reflect the observations of pervasiveness by WP:RS correctly. IHateAccounts (talk) 03:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Then we lose the fact that such posts are extremely common on Parler, which is largely what the sources are commenting upon. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

  I don't necessarily agree that it indicates any less pervasive a level than the other (as a matter of fact active voice "allows" seems to me to indicate more pervasiveness, but everyone reads things differently), but I guess I also don't exactly understand the opposition to the phrase "is known for". It seems like a simple statement of fact which is directly supported by the sources, and encyclopedias saying "____ is known for..." is very common. Also no reason you couldn't add a "and posts like these are pervasive/prominent/common across the platform" to the end of the sentence. I was just pointing out that rephrasing it to exclude the phrase "is known for" can be done by using active voice. NonReproBlue (talk) 06:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1 There are many reliable sources backing the statement up. This statement is likely relevant to the reader, considering the amount of press coverage it has gotten because of it. Jort93 (talk) 01:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

• I think the discussion about removing the "antisemitism" line should be revisited. The line clearly violates neutrality guidelines, unless I'm missing something... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbaker92 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC) — Nbaker92 (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Jzaooo (talk • contribs).
• Little bit concerned over the sourcing here, per Pudeo. I mean... The New Statesman is mostly an opinion source which should be attributed (per RSN), ADL should be attributed for remarks of antisemitism (per RSP), The Independent is attributing its claim on this point, The Forward is not exactly a top tier RS and is likely to have a bias, ditto the former for Deccan... So that leaves the NYT, and The Conversation (I guess). So that's already not the best start. But this is kinda ignoring what top tier RS are doing on this matter. On top of what Pudeo wrote, CNN is attributing to ADL, as are WaPo and CNBC. So we have top tier RS all attributing, but we're choosing to make the claim in wikivoice because attribution-required and mid-tier RS are doing so (+ NYT, but obviously not enough)? Feels iffy to me. This is just on the antisemitism point btw, haven't dug into the others, partially time and partially because the sourcing for those looks better. So option 2, I guess. As an aside, there's obviously some socking going on above, and all the claims of solely "include because verifiable" seem to forget that verifiability doesn't guarantee inclusion. Though I personally think the others seem to be worthy of inclusion (because they're balanced and due), obviously it's not solely because they're verifiable that they should be the 3rd sentence in the lead, so really many arguments above are all rather lacking at my glance. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:07, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

  I don't see how having the New York Times as a source is "not a good start". They NYT alone is a strong enough source, let alone with the deluge of other RS that back it up. Also note that in the time since these sources were mentioned, others have chimed in using their own voice rather than attribution. The Independent no longer feels the need to attribute, and says "It has become a haven for white supremacists and far-right nationalists, with the relaxed rules allowing antisemitism and other hate speech to thrive." Houston Chronicle says "It takes just 15 minutes to come across blatant antisemitism — a proxy of the Nazi flag, with the swastika tweaked slightly to display “45,” in reference to President Trump." Good Magazine says "The majority of content consists of far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories." It is difficult to find any reliable sources that mention Parler without also mentioning its antisemitism, which speaks not only to verifiablity but also to the fact that it is due. There is a reason that reliable sources bring it up again and again and again when they mention Parler. It is one of the primary notable aspects of the service. NonReproBlue (talk) 03:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, I’ve read all of that above and am not convinced, by my quick browse of top quality RS, that this particular claim is an honest portrayal of the reliable sources in this matter. The point is not to find one RS that says what we want to include (which would be the NYT in this case). No, the point is to look at the RS and get a feel for what they’re saying. To that end, I think the approach you describe is the wrong way to go about it. It seems quite obvious to me that most top RS, even ones with recent articles only weeks ago, are choosing to attribute these remarks (that too, to a source we find needs attribution for claims of anti Semitism). So my opinion reading the above is that making the statement in wikivoice is undue and should be attributed if we’re making it at all. You are free to disagree :) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:01, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

  Fair enough, but I disagree with the idea that "most top RS, even ones with recent articles only weeks ago, are choosing to attribute these remarks". That may have been the case weeks ago, but it is not the case currently. As I pointed out, even sources that you describe as "attributing" the statement, such as the Independent, are no longer attributing it but rather stating it in their own voice. Can you point me to RS that discuss Parler WITHOUT mentioning the antisemitism that is rampant on the platform? Because if the argument is "They all mention it, but some attribute it, so we shouldn't include it" I just don't see that as a valid line of reasoning. And if we were to attribute it, do you really propose we say "According to the New York Times, The Conversation, The Independent, The Houston Chronicle, The Foreword, The ADL, and The Simon Wiesenthal Center, antisemitism is common on the platform"? Because that would be unweildy, but attributing it to fewer would give an improper impression that the sentiment is less asserted than it actually is. And that is if we exclude the people who are citing one of those sources but sharing the sentiment. I just don't see many (any?) reliable sources that discuss Parler without mentioning it. I would be interested to see which "top quality RS" you perused during your quick browse. NonReproBlue (talk) 13:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

  Just one thought on this: I'm not sure it's entirely fair to conclude that RS are attributing the ADL's research because they are not comfortable repeating the ADL's conclusion in their own voice. Many sources will attribute in-text as a way of giving credit to the researchers, since most news publications don't use inline footnotes like we do. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

  I concur with what NonReproBlue and GorillaWarfare say here, pretty much. While I do think it's important to say something about who has characterized content as antisemitic, we can (and already do) handle that in the main text, of which the lede is a brief summary. XOR'easter (talk) 18:55, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• Option 1. Very well-sourced + defining/important aspect of subject + discussed in body means it belongs in the lead section. Not seeing any policy-based reason for excise this important content. Neutrality^talk 21:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• Option 4 The substance of this content should absolutely be included in the body of the article but, per MOS:LEADREL, the lead should reflect the body of the article. Including this in the lead causes the lead to fall out of compliance in two ways. First, we already have a sentence in the lead that says it's populated by "conspiracy theorists, and right-wing extremists" so a reasonably intelligent person would presume that those individuals, therefore, post conspiracy theories and extremist content. We don't need to say "There are conspiracy theorists on the site. They post conspiracy theories." Just one or the other is fine. Second, the lead has basically turned into a parade of horribles. Basic information customary for articles about companies that usually appear in leads (e.g. corporate organization, business model, etc.) is nowhere to be found. If that wasn't the case then including this in the lead might be okay; as it stands, 90% of the lead summarizes 50% of the content of the article which is contrary to the guidance provided us by LEADREL. Chetsford (talk) 07:02, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

  It seems your concern could be best addressed by adding information about Parler's business etc. to the lead? However I think it's missing largely because not much is known about Parler's business model or organization—they've been funded by angel investors so far, and they've discussed possible advertising in the future (the actual feasibility of which has been questioned by RS), but if they have any business model currently that might be earning them money it's not been made public. They might be doing the startup thing of relying on investors now and worrying about revenue later, but that's my own speculation and not based in any RS. They also have not disclosed who owns the company, other than Matze and a "small group of close friends and employees". The WSJ broke that Rebekah Mercer has backed Parler and she later said she "started Parler" with Matze, so she may be an owner. Dan Bongino has also said (on Twitter, ironically) that he's an owner of Parler. But it seems questionable to definitively state that all these people who've said they "own" Parler actually do without any confirmation besides them. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:16, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

  I've just taken a pass at clarifying the Parler#Business and finances section to reflect what we know about Parler's business model, founders, and ownership, and it's... tangled. I did what I could to add what is known about the founders and ownership to the lead, but I didn't even try to add any comments about its business model since it's completely unknown. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

  I approve of adding statements about founding/ownership to the lede, as done here; the main text says enough that it's worth a summary line up at the top. XOR'easter (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Chetsford: A couple question/thoughts I have about your response here.

1. The WP:WEIGHT of coverage for the subject seems to not be on its business model. I looked for specific searches on it and apart from what is already in the article, there is very little - and what is in the article indicates quite rightly that the business model is a matter of some confusion or lack of clarity (or even lack of trust in viability by experts analyzing it). For instance, Wired's in-depth article (which isn't reflected in this WP article yet and probably should be) notes that Parler's business model is based around prioritizing right-wing influencers, which may be why so much of the other coverage rightly starts with the conspiracy theories and antisemitism that define the platform. [17]
2. I don't see how the claim of a redundancy of verbiage is reached. Indicating the WP:WEIGHT of coverage on WHO are the predominant user base for Parler ("a significant user base of Donald Trump supporters, conservatives, conspiracy theorists, and right-wing extremists") and then WHAT they post ("Posts on the service often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories like QAnon.") seems independently important to me, especially since it clarifies that the "conspiracy theorists" being referred to are the dangerous, antisemitic or terrorism-connected stuff like QAnon, rather than the garden-variety moon-landing-hoaxers or 9/11-truthers you used to hear on late night Coast to Coast AM along with the people who think they were abducted and probed by aliens.

Also, the lead right now does contain sentences on (a) how the platform markets itself and (b) user base numbers, which seem to both be part of the "etc" you claim aren't in the lead? IHateAccounts (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I concur with the sentiment that the current text is not redundant (or at least not too redundant — doubtless it can be tweaked for marginal improvements, as just about anything on this site can). The conspiracy theories that our sources describe aren't Paul is dead, they're Stop the Steal and everything else in orbit around the QAnon singularity. XOR'easter (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I much appreciate everyone's interest in my !vote and I don't mean to be unresponsive but I'm afraid there's really no way I could realistically start to respond to 700 words of reply from four different editors spanning three sub-threads with the thoroughness each of your comments warrant. While I appreciate the discursive nature of RfCs I may have to let my !vote just lay as it is. Nonetheless, I thank you each for your comments. Chetsford (talk) 06:13, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Move to Close

The RFC has been up since November 7; it is now December 8. I was about to request closure then I saw @GorillaWarfare: did it yesterday at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure so a thank-you to her.

In order to assist whoever has to plow through this, here is a running count of the responses as of time of my signature:

1. 33 34 support Option 1, retain "Posts on the website often contain far-right content, antisemitism, and conspiracy theories."
2. 3 support Option 2, Remove "antisemitism", making the sentence read, "Posts on the website often contain far-right content and conspiracy theories."
3. 0 support Option 3, Remove "antisemitism" and "far-right content", making the sentence read, "Posts on the website often contain conspiracy theories."
4. 9 support (plus, two IP addresses of questionable nature) Option 4, Remove the entire sentence.
5. Miscellaneous: 3 for "Option 2/4", 1 for "Option 1 or 2", 1 for "Option 1-b" involving moving wording back in the lead.

Hope that helps. They'll still have to read the arguments presented. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:48, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@IHateAccounts: glad my vote made it from obscurity into miscellany! :) -Darouet (talk) 19:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Updated after comment by Neutrality. IHateAccounts (talk) 21:24, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inclusion in lead of left-wing users being banned

Starting a discussion here on the topic of Twozerooz's addition to the lead, which (with my copyedits) reads:

Beginning in June 2020, some users reported being banned from Parler for espousing left-wing viewpoints.

I'm not sure this is really leadworthy. It is supported by sourcing, and there is some discussion of the topic already in the article body at Parler#Content and moderation. However, in my view, the weight of discussion of this subject in the sourcing is somewhat lighter than that given to the other topics in the lead. It's also almost entirely based on users self-reporting being banned via tweet/etc. That said, there are multiple sources on it, so I figured I'd start a discussion here.

For the convenience of editors joining this discussion who wish to evaluate the sourcing, the existing coverage of this in the article is primarily based on these sources:

• Saul, Isaac (July 18, 2019). "This Twitter Alternative Was Supposed To Be Nicer, But Bigots Love It Already". The Forward. Archived from the original on June 30, 2020. Retrieved August 4, 2020.
• Covucci, David (June 30, 2020). "Free speech app Parler is already banning leftists". The Daily Dot. Archived from the original on July 2, 2020. Retrieved August 4, 2020.
• Watts, Marina (June 30, 2020). "Parler, the Ted Cruz-Approved 'Free Speech' App, is Already Banning Users". Newsweek. Archived from the original on July 5, 2020. Retrieved June 30, 2020.
• Lerman, Rachel (July 15, 2020). "The conservative alternative to Twitter wants to be a place for free speech for all. It turns out, rules still apply". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on July 28, 2020. Retrieved August 4, 2020.
• Yune, Tebany (June 29, 2020). "What is Parler and why won't conservatives shut up about it?". Mic. Archived from the original on November 10, 2020. Retrieved August 4, 2020.
• Duffield, Will (July 7, 2020). "A Twitter Alternative, If They Can Keep It". Cato Institute. Archived from the original on August 14, 2020. Retrieved August 5, 2020.
• Cuthbertson, Anthony (November 12, 2020). "'Free speech' app Parler, used by far-right, bans users for speaking freely". The Independent. Archived from the original on November 14, 2020. Retrieved November 13, 2020.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it is not leadworthy. The articles rely heavily on anonymous anecdotes, and even then there is no indication that users were banned for their political viewpoints. The Daily Dot article for example mentions that people were banned for creating fake accounts and spamming; nothing about their stances on issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jobshack (talk • contribs) 07:24, 25 November 2020 (UTC) — Jobshack (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Well its a useful counterpoint to "Parler markets itself as a "free speech" and unbiased alternative to mainstream social networks such as Twitter and Facebook.".Slatersteven (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Slatersteven's point, it provides important context for why Parler's advertising/rhetoric claims to be a "free speech" platform and so on are WP:MANDY. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, there seems to be more about this than there has been for misogyny/anti-feminism, which we discussed up there somewhere and which doesn't appear to be lede-worthy. And there are sources on the topic which we don't use yet, e.g., [18][19][20][21]. I'd be a bit happier with it in the lede if the sentence about it were shorter; for example, is it necessary to say "Beginning in June 2020, some users reported..." when we could just write "Users have reported..."? XOR'easter (talk) 20:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Some of the sources are so so and even outright not RS such as Newsweek. If the question here is if it is lead worthy, I would have to say probably not. PackMecEng (talk) 19:48, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

• Why are all these sources so old? In July 2020 the social media site had 2.8 million users, now it has 10 million users. In google news there are a tremendous amount of newer articles. Doesn't someone want to update this article. The article seems somewhat stale with old information. --Guest2625 (talk) 07:09, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• Guest2625, Wikipedia is not a current news feed, and we do not remove "older" sources unless they are supplanted by superior new sources. We cover what was written by reliable sources six months ago, six years ago, sixty years ago and 600 years ago about various topics. Parler may be relatively new, but it has a history, and it is the job of this encyclopedia to document it. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I was just agreeing with PackMecEng. The sources are not only old, but many are also of poor quality. The Daily Dot and Mic are not great, the Cato Institute one is a think tank blog piece, The Forward is a biased source, and Newsweek is not considered that great anymore. The Independent and the Washington Post are good sources. Since July 2020, the number of users of the platform has increased from 2.8 million to 10 million. Such drastic changes in user number will have changed things on the platform. There are many superior quality sources from over the past month which have covered the platform. For example, Parler, the “free speech” Twitter wannabe, explained by Vox, Parler Makes Play for Conservatives Mad at Facebook, Twitter by the Wall Street Journal, Parler Games: Inside the Right's Favorite 'Free Speech' App by Wired, Right-Wing Social Media Finalizes Its Divorce From Reality by the Atlantic, Parler is growing but conservatives are not ready to leave Twitter by the Washington Post, Conservatives find home on social media platforms rife with misinformation by CNN, and Parler downloads jump as conservatives flock to the Twitter clone after Biden win by CNET. --Guest2625 (talk) 11:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Any of these used? https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/conservatives-flock-free-speech-social-media-app-which-has-started-n1232844 https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/nov/13/parler-conservative-social-network-free-speech .Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Neither of those are used in the article currently. The first one is also in the set of four I posted above, making five sources in addition to those already in the article that address the topic. That's enough to tip me over the edge into thinking the relevant passage in our main text can be expanded somewhat, and that it is lede-worthy.

Per WP:RSP, Newsweek should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In the present circumstances, I think that using them as a supplemental reference is fine; they are not saying things far out of line with what the more solidly reliable sources are printing. (I did make a couple tweaks yesterday to reduce the article's dependence upon Newsweek, but I doubt we need to take more drastic measures than that.) XOR'easter (talk) 18:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

None of the articles say anything about people being banned specifically *for their politics* though. It says people were banned for breaking rules. And they all use anecdotal evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:584:C400:FA20:E1D1:18C1:3A0F:141D (talk) 05:52, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• But as with every other platform on the internet, Parler's free speech stance goes only so far. The platform has been banning many people who joined and trolled conservatives from the first; Leftists and liberals say they are already being banned from the app for content the conservative, free-speech-loving user base disagrees with. from the second. They don't specifically say they were banned for breaking rules; they do note that Parler has the right to ban anyone for any reason (just like any website), but the key point that all these sources note is that these show that, contrary to its press-speak about free speech, the site actually has fairly strict censorship policies, even relative to other major social media sites, and that it seems like they are applying these in a disproportionately politicized fashion. --Aquillion (talk) 06:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The text should be changed to say that some left leaning users *claim to have been banned* by Parler, since that is what the text of the NBC article says. Currently, this article makes it seem as if those anonymous anecdotes have been confirmed, whereas the sources do not support this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jobshack (talk • contribs) 06:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I checked the NBC article and you are mistaken. They are stating in their own voice that the bans are taking place. "But as with every other platform on the internet, Parler's free speech stance goes only so far. The platform has been banning many people who joined and trolled conservatives." and "Writer and comedian Tony Posnanski also received a ban from the app." Are any sources saying these people are lying about being banned? NonReproBlue (talk) 10:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

It doesn’t say why ‘Tony Posnanski’ was banned. It could’ve been for something unrelated to his politics, and he’s the only example provided in the article. I don’t see why the minor edit suggestion I put above can’t be implemented just in case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jobshack (talk • contribs) 07:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Because we don't cast doubt on things that reliable sources say "just in case". If you would like to present sources that are saying these people are lying, I would be happy to review them, but I don't see any sources saying that. NonReproBlue (talk) 08:44, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with GorillaWarfare. Based on sources (except Newsweek as per the consensus described at WP:RSP) this should certainly be in the body. However, the lead is intended to be a succinct summary of the main points of the article, not a list of every terrible thing associated with the subject. Chetsford (talk) 07:06, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• The difference between claiming to deliver free speech and delivering free speech is an important one. If there have been noteworthy allegations that it delivers the former, not the later, and it remains unclear whether these allegations are accurate or not, this should be noted in the lead. The allegations have been made in a dedicated article in a national broadsheet and touched upon in another national broadsheet and a TV network. This means that they are clearly noteworthy. Therefore the the text should stay (though possibly with citations added and the first clause removed). ~ El D. (talk to me) 14:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

References

@GorillaWarfare: Regarding sources, the two that appear awkward to me are the Newsweek (Newsweek (2013–present) being considered generally unreliable) and the Cato Institute link, which is a blog from a propaganda organization that should never be considered a WP:RS anyways.

That being said here are a couple more sources that bear consideration for the article coverage.

1. Vox/Recode coverage [22] - contains good information especially on the murkiness of ownership.
2. TechDirt coverage on Parler's (ahem) "moderating policies" and the disconnect between claim and reality: [23][24]. I note that this may take some discussion; Wikipedia's page says it is a "blog" but the "About Us" seems to indicate it has editorial oversight. https://www.techdirt.com/about.php
3. Coverage from "Happy Media", an Australian publisher [25]? https://happymag.tv/about/

IHateAccounts (talk) 15:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I would like to offer, if I may, a slight correction; Newsweek post 2013 is not "generally unreliable", but rather "not generally reliable". Small, but important, difference. All yellow tier sources ("No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply") are "neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable", and it is noted in the RSP entry that "consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis". Marina Watts seems to have decent bona fides, and I see no reason to assume that this article is problematic, especially given the fact that it is supported by numerous other RS. Also the Cato Institute is occasionally RS for issues regarding Libertarianism, so discussion of Parler's free speech (or lack thereof) policies may be within their RS wheelhouse. Either way, both sources can be used with attribution, and in this circumstance even that probably isn't needed for this particular Newsweek piece. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Just noting that I have changed my mind around this being removed from the lead. I'm going to remove the {{discuss}} tag, since discussion here has mostly dropped off and there seems to be no strong consensus for removal. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:21, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Newsweek

Newsweek might be trying to make Parler their beat:

• Murdock, Jason (December 10, 2020). "Parler Boss John Matze Says YouTube 'Deceitful' for Deleting Videos Disputing Election". Newsweek.
• Jackson, Jon (December 14, 2020). "Parler Users Float Unfounded Conspiracy Theories After Google Outage: 'Chinese or Aliens'". Newsweek.
• Jackson, Jon (December 15, 2020). "On Parler, People Turn on Mitch McConnell for Recognizing Biden as President". Newsweek.

XOR'easter (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC) One more:

• Walrath, Mary (December 15, 2020). "High-Profile Parler Accounts Threaten to 'Destroy the GOP' in Election Aftermath". Newsweek.

XOR'easter (talk) 02:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The news coverage of Parler has dropped off a lot (much like the daily page views of this article), but Newsweek has run another three items this week:

• Villarreal, Daniel (December 30, 2020). "Parler Users Shame 'Traitor' Kelly Loeffler for Asking for Campaign Money: 'You're a Billionaire'". Newsweek.
• Roche, Darragh (December 31, 2020). "Parler Users Praise 'Patriot' Josh Hawley for Challenging Biden Victory". Newsweek.
• Roche, Darragh (January 1, 2021). "Rudy Giuliani Spends New Year's Eve on Parler Attacking 'Republican Quislings'". Newsweek.

XOR'easter (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

One more:

• Zhao, Christina (January 2, 2021). "On Parler, Talk of 'Civil War' Follow Ted Cruz-Led Plan to Challenge Electoral Votes". Newsweek.

XOR'easter (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Two more

• Zhao, Christina (January 3, 2021). "Parler Users Defend Trump Threatening Georgia Official to 'Find 11,780 Votes'". Newsweek.
• Martin, Jeffery (January 4, 2021). "'Burn DC to the Ground': Parler Users React to Arrest of Proud Boys Leader". Newsweek.

None of these pieces seem to be saying anything so dramatic that I'd want another source to back them up, but none of them look like real shoe-leather journalism, either. XOR'easter (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

A lot of this is similar to reporting we see that happens to mention mainstream social networks (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) but is really more about the person who is posting (and/or what they're posting about). Not sure a lot of them are that relevant to the article about Parler itself. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:12, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Newsweek seems to have dedicated a beat to covering reactions of alt-right groups such as the Proud Boys. According to WP:RSP, "consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis" for Newsweek (2013–present). I concur with XOR'easter, I think this coverage is viable for inclusion as far as the facts of content posted by these groups on Parler. IHateAccounts (talk) 17:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

What would you add? GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

As a starter, the Tarrio commentary on "going incognito" from 'Burn DC to the Ground': Parler Users React to Arrest of Proud Boys Leader may be WP:DUE sourcing alongside this? "Before his arrest, Proud Boys' Tarrio said on social media that "record numbers" of members would attend, suggesting that they may dress in all black like antifa activists." https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2021-01-04/leave-your-guns-at-home-washington-police-warn-pro-trump-rally-goers IHateAccounts (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

The only relevance to Parler is that it was posted there. It might be appropriate at Proud Boys or 2020 United States election protests, but not here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, I didn't have any particular points in mind from these stories that I think ought to be incorporated here. My main goal was to document the persistent interest of Newsweek in this topic. XOR'easter (talk) 02:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Three more:

• Martin, Jeffery (January 6, 2021). "Gloating on Parler over DC Violence as Trump Tries to Calm Mob He Unleashed". Newsweek.
• Murdock, Jason (January 7, 2021). "Parler CEO John Matze Calls Twitter 'Cowardly Authoritarians' for Blocking Donald Trump". Newsweek.
• Batchelor, Tom (January 7, 2021). "Lin Wood's Twitter Suspended, Pro-Trump Lawyer Talks of 'Coup' on Parler". Newsweek.

Again, these may or may not be useful in the article itself, but I think it's good to keep track of the niche that Newsweek is trying to carve out for itself. XOR'easter (talk) 15:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Vice News story: "Even QAnon Is Abandoning Parler, the Far-Right's Answer to Twitter"

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx8gj5/even-qanon-is-abandoning-parler-the-far-rights-answer-to-twitter

Is this reliable for this page/topic? IHateAccounts (talk) 05:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@IHateAccounts: It is, and I've already added some information from that source (which is currently citation #65 in the page). GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: Thanks! I wanted to check with someone first after looking up Vice on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@IHateAccounts: Oh, huh, I could've sworn Vice was one of the sources that's green but considered by some to be a biased source on some topics. Weird. Either way, it's currently being used alongside other sources in all locations except for one, and not making any contentious claims that aren't supported by other sources, so I'm personally comfortable with its usage. The one spot it's used as a standalone source is to support the sentence Parler remained the most downloaded app in the United States for five days in early November. That can be removed if anyone's uncomfortable with the sourcing, or we can try to find another source to replace/augment the Vice one. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:06, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Wednesday, January 6 protest

This might be a useful source:

• Timberg, Craig; Harwell, Drew (January 5, 2021). "Pro-Trump forums erupt with violent threats ahead of Wednesday's rally against the 2020 election". Washington Post.

XOR'easter (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

... Well, that's going to need an update.

• Frenkel, Sheera (January 6, 2021). "The storming of Capitol Hill was organized on social media". New York Times. On social media sites requested by the far-right, such as Gab and Parler, directions on which streets to take to avoid the police and which tools to bring to help pry open doors were exchanged in comments. At least a dozen people posted about carrying guns into the halls of Congress.

XOR'easter (talk) 22:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

XOR'easter I agree this needs mention! -Darouet (talk) 22:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Concur, I don't have the time to work on wording now but this is extremely WP:DUE. IHateAccounts (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

You should update the pronunciation, as well to be pɑːrleɪ PAR-Lay — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:CFC0:3D:65B6:8433:6DF2:4B29 (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

The topic of pronunciation has been discussed here before. Please provide reliable sources to support any changes you suggest. XOR'easter (talk) 19:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Google Play banned the app, Apple Store to ban tomorrow

https://www.axios.com/capitol-mob-parler-google-ban-826d808d-3e06-4468-a7c6-6157557818b3.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/google-pulls-parler-from-play-store-for-fostering-calls-to-violence/ar-BB1cB6gV TuffStuffMcG (talk) 01:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd seen the Axios source, but not the other one (which is a Verge story syndicated by MSN). Both are in the article now. XOR'easter (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Number 1 Apple Store download yesterday

https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/09/parler-jumps-to-no-1-on-app-store-after-facebook-and-twitter-bans/

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Added, thanks for the tip. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Is the app on F-droid ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.80.224.229 (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Looks like no. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:10, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment by the ACLU is included here

https://slate.com/technology/2021/01/parler-google-apple-amazon-aws-okta.html TuffStuffMcG (talk) 16:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2021

Was just going to add a link to Rebekah Mercer's wikipedia page since there is no link in the Founder(s) section Justinmoore2886 (talk) 03:14, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Generally, a link should appear only once in an article. It's linked further up. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Part of a series on Antisemitism

I understand that Parler contains a lot of antisemitic material and that the antisemitism sidebar therefore has been put into the article. However, unlike Gab, Parler does not strike me as being antisemitic in nature. Instead, it strikes me as being a service primarily for conservative speech, not free speech as it markets itself. It is worth noting WP:SIDEBAR and the fact that not every article that is linked to in a sidebar has the sidebar in it (take for example Fox News and its lack of the Conservatism US sidebar). I see the edit was made by Jonmaxras, who may be able to convince us why the sidebar should stay, if they defend the decision. FreeMediaKid! 04:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

hateful speech that would be moderated and result in account closures by Facebook or Twitter would be the accurate WP:RS-supported wording. IHateAccounts (talk) 04:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I'd argue that the sidebar should be included because antisemitic content is very frequent on the website. Many reputable sources have pointed out that Parler is a hotbed for antisemitic, white supremacist, and bigoted postings. Additionally, Parler is one of the most significant contributors to the QAnon conspiracy theory, which has many antisemitic aspects. I do see the argument that it shouldn't be included since it's not the primary focus. However, I'd argue that soft-Nazism (if that's even a term) is still Nazism, and should be identified as such. Just because bigoted rhetoric might be presented in a more palatable manner on Parler than Gab, doesn't make it any less dangerous. Because Parler mixes mainstream conservatism with rather extreme right wing content, it is more likely to attract a larger following of bigoted views. I believe it's important to include. Jonmaxras (talk) 04:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I am still not convinced that it should be part of the antisemitic series. The current article says in the content section, that Parler is known for its far-right and alt-right, antisemitic, anti-feminist, and Islamophobic content. While I agree with the sources provided that the website hosts antisemitic content. It is very strange to find the article as part of the antisemitic series and not alt-right, anti-feminist, islamophobic content. The latter two have wikipedia series. RLNight (talk) 11:09, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I was drawn to this discussion by the fact that a fraction of the user base are simply mainstream conservatives. With that in mind, I was concerned about labeling the contents of the website as being heavily antisemitic, in part because I know someone who themselves has a Parler account and is very conservative, but does not subscribe to far-right views, let alone antisemitism and condoning the U.S. Capitol riots. However, having read the article by the anti-hate Jewish organization ADL, it seems that I have underestimated the scope of far-right politics on the website. Furthermore, the fact that Parler allows users to link to far-right services or at least services rife with far-right material like BitChute and Telegram is disturbing enough to make me question the website's true ideology. What makes me wrong about that is that the tolerance of the bigotry is actually supposed, albeit counterintuitively, to reduce the hate, but that of course is controversial. In the end, it is what it is, and antisemitism seems to be an inevitable result of lax moderation and disgruntled extremists who have been booted off of mainstream social media. I am now convinced that the sidebar should stay. FreeMediaKid! 06:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@FreeMediaKid!: It takes guts to admit when you've changed your mind about things like this, so kudos. BirdValiant (talk) 07:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

"the tolerance of the bigotry is actually supposed, albeit counterintuitively, to reduce the hate" - on the other hand there's a German saying, "If you have a nazi sitting at a table with 11 others, you have 12 nazis." Good to see you admitted you were wrong, though. IHateAccounts (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@FreeMediaKid!: Thank you for your feedback and contribution! Jonmaxras (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I am sorry, but those sources are either based on bias or you have not read them properly. The time.com article mentions Parler together with networks such as Facebook and Twitter and nowhere else as nothing more but an example for a social media platform among those. There is no focus on the network whatsoever, let alone it specifically promiting antisemitism or any other ideology in comparison to other social networks. The ADL article leads its second paragraph with "While the site itself is not extremist..." and explicitly discusses sub-communities of the website. theconversation.com makes a clear distinction with Gab based on Parler not primarily being used by extremists, if anything they observe a development of such communities. The vox.com article makes no mention of anti-semitism. Your Wired article explicitly mentions Parler being perceived as "too soft" and "a honeypot" by Neo-Nazi groups. If anything your sources make a clear case for the antisemitism block to be removed. --95.90.245.161 (talk) 00:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that the Antisemitism bar should be there for the very reason you mentioned. This site is not dedicated to antisemitism in any way. There is definitely LOTS of Antisemitism on the site but, in the mix, there are also MANY normal non Antisemitic people. Congressmen such as Ted Cruz. Standard mainstream conservatives as mentioned above. The only difference between this and mainstream social media in this very respect is its lack of moderation of hateful content. With so many mainstream conservatives and even non-antisemitic politicians on the site, this can't be considered "soft-Nazism." Keeping the Antisemitism bar brands the entire site as an Antisemitic platform which is blatantly untrue and misleading. Instead, the first paragraph of this article conveys the antisemitic content on this site clear enough. It is a site with a significant userbase of right-wing extremists and conspiracy theorists with posts containing far-right and antisemitic content. Nathanzachary56 (talk) 07:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Side discussion about Ted Cruz

"Congressmen such as Ted Cruz." - If you don't understand that Cruz is both a white-supremacist (who doesn't actually condemn white supremacists, just gets mad when they say the quiet parts out loud too obviously[26]) and anti-semitic[27]... IHateAccounts (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC) Blatant accusations of white supremacy and antisemitism require actual evidence. The links you offered do not offer any evidence whatsoever of his white supremacy or antisemitism. In fact, it proves that he is neither. In the first link, there is a clear video of Cruz calling Steve King and his comments stupid. That it is stupid to ask why white supremacy is considered offensive. It is you who are assuming this means he only gets angry when "they say the quiet parts out loud." Making such assumptions without clearer evidence is not an assumption that should be made on a neutral encyclopedia. The only thing that can be extrapolated from that link is that he condemns racism and white supremacy. In fact, in the very link, you gave me, it talks about how Ted Cruz was one of the main leaders in opposition to removing a GOP member simply because he is a Muslim. His justification was that "We believe in religious freedom, we believe in free speech, we believe in diversity..." How in any way does that sound like a white supremacist to you? We cannot make such accusations on people without real evidence. Moving to your second link. There is absolutely no evidence of antisemitism in this link. At the time of his tweet, Bloomberg was a candidate for the presidency. There was a news article made by Bloomberg News that stated that Bloomberg is one of the two frontrunners for the nomination. Ted Cruz called this out saying "It's almost as if he owns the media." This was not an antisemitic comment because it was clear Cruz was calling out the fact that Bloomberg News is owned by the very candidate they are praising. From the context, he is clearly NOT insinuating that "the Jews own the media." He is simply stating the fact that Bloomberg owns this very large media organization and is clearly using this to give himself more favourable coverage in the news and media. As it now should be clear, neither of your links are pieces of evidence that support your accusations of white supremacy or antisemitism. Since you made these bold accusations, the burden of evidence lies on your shoulders. I do not need to offer any evidence to prove the fact that he is not a white supremacist or antisemitic. However, I still will to further prove my point. On June 13th, 2019 Cruz issued a resolution to the senate to condemn all forms of antisemitism. He condemned questioning the loyalty of Jewish Americans. He condemned physical violence against Jews. He condemned antisemitic cartoons. He condemned movements to boycott items made by Jews. He condemned extremism. He considers antisemitism a "unique prejudice" stating that the Senate must condemn specifically antisemitism and not just pass a general resolution condemning bigotry in general. He stated it was a gross form of antisemitism to say that Jews use money to buy political power. He even expressed his support for Israel. No matter what you think about Israel and the affairs surrounding them, you must be able to clearly see that such a supporter of the state of Israel cannot be considered an antisemite. By extension, this also shows that he is most likely not a white-supremacist as white-supremacists are usually also very antisemitic. The two terms are very closely linked. To me, Ted Cruz is one of the most standard sliced white bread conservatives I have ever seen. Definitely not a white-supremacist or antisemite.Nathanzachary56 (talk) 18:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC) Okay this is getting way off-topic. However, regardless of whatever else Ted Cruz has done, it must be said that accusing a Jew of controlling the media is very antisemitic. Nathanzachary56, while I appreciate your perspective on why the sidebar shouldn't be included, what you describe (in your original post) is anecdotal and does not include reliable sources for your point. Jonmaxras (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC) Interestingly the Ted Cruz article does not mention this episode. A couple of political opponents in Congress (one was AOC) tried to make hay of Cruz' tweet on Bloomberg, and most news outlets were careful to report it as "AOC says..." rather than calling the tweet anti-Semitic. The whole thing blew over almost immediately, and had it continued Cruz could have made the kill shot by pointing out that Bloomberg as a candidate did effectively "own" most other major media due to his unprecedented ad spending and the rotation of journalists between outlets (i.e., fear of being unhireable at many places if they alienate Bloomberg). 73.89.25.252 (talk) 08:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC) When Ted Cruz said that Bloomberg owns 'the media,' he clearly meant that he owns the media outlet Bloomberg. Are you arguing that Ted Cruz's page should have the antisemitism sidebar? If his page, or even the Parler page should have the antisemitism sidebar, then Ilhan Omar's page should also have the sidebar. There is no way one can be intellectually honest and deny this very fact. -- zaiisao (talk | contribs) 17:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC) Whataboutism is not the strategy you think it is. If you genuinely believe that Ted Cruz's and Ilhan Omar's Wiki pages deserve the sidebar, then by all means take it to their respective talk pages. Once again, this discussion is about the sidebar on this page. I have no interest in debating or judging the moral value of Ted Cruz's statement. That's not what Wikipedia is for. Jonmaxras (talk) 17:27, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not a great enthusiast for sidebars in general — often, they seem like a bit of a gimmick that doesn't add much value. But that's just my personal taste, and I'm not going to go around removing them on that basis. In this particular case, the sourcing is more than adequate to show the topic is relevant. (We go by reliable sources, not anecdotes.) I'm fine with this sidebar staying, though it might work better moved from near the top of the article to the "Content" section, which goes into depth on the relevant subject matter. XOR'easter (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

If you know that a website allows antisemitic material to be freely posted and still continue to use that site, then you are effectively antisemitic yourself. ---Khajidha (talk) 16:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

If you know that a website allows Islamophobic material to be freely posted and still continue to use that site, then you are effectively Islamophobic. Why isn't this article part of the Islamophobia series? Added later, just to be clear, I am not advocating making the article part of the Islamophobic series. I think it shouldn't be part of either of the two. RLNight (talk) 09:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The United States Constitution protects antisemitic speech as free speech; is the United States an antisemitic country? -- zaiisao ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:18, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

It was just determined by formal consensus that the antisemitism on Parler should be mentioned prominently in this article (#RfC: Should "antisemitism" be removed from the lead?) so I really don't think we need to waste time relitigating that. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Isn't that only about a sentence or wording in the lead? I think this discussion is about the sidebar, no? --95.90.245.161 (talk) 03:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Correct, but several folks in the discussion above have questioned whether Parler/its content/its users are antisemitic, and so I figured I should mention that's already been discussed at great length. I have no strong opinions on the inclusion of the sidebar; I don't think it adds much, but it is certainly justified by the article text and sourcing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

References

’’If you know that a website allows antisemitic material to be freely posted and still continue to use that site, then you are effectively antisemitic yourself.’’ I hate to be blunt, but you must be an antisemite because Wikipedia is not censored. Of course anything posted on Wikipedia should be encyclopedic in nature and not a senseless attack on Jews or any other people group, but there are plenty of words (the word “nigger” comes to mind), images, and other things people may find offensive on Wikipedia. All considered, does Parler outright encourage hate speech, or do they take the same position as the Wikipedia Foundation? PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 04:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I hate to be blunt, but if you don't understand the distinction between academic discussion of hate speech and actual hate speech then you really aren't competent to be writing here. --Khajidha (talk) 05:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Guys, stay on topic. We are not the ones who should decide whether or not the sidebar should be included based on personal perception but need to source this claim, i.e. rely on reliable third-party observations made regarding that matter and notability of the platform. I've posted above that the sources provided here so far do, in my opinion, NOT support giving Parler the antisemitism sidebar. While association with far-right and conservatism is mentioned a few times, there's almost nothing singling out Parler as a platform notable for its antisemitism - one provided source does not even mention antisemitism, while another does not even mention Parler in it but in a single sentence that also has Facebook and Twitter in it, and I don't think anyone would argue to put a antisemitism sidebar on those pages. --95.90.245.161 (talk) 19:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

there's almost nothing singling out Parler as a platform notable for its antisemitism That does not fit with past consensus, which determined the sourcing mentioned antisemitism on the site so prominently that it should be included in the lead. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I am not arguing that the site does not contain antisemitism and that should not be mentioned at all, in fact I agree this mention is warranted as the platform definitely has been discussed to some degree in that context. However, I am arguing that singling out this aspect to such a degree as the sidebar does has not been properly sourced so far and is unwarranted. There is a difference in being perceived as being conversative or even far-right, and specifically anti-semitic, which should be properly reflected on Wikipedia - and a sidebar is much more visible than the description in the opening. Again, the sources provided so far do not substantiate the claim of the platform being specifically known for antisemitic content. At the moment, the usage of "antisemitic" in the article has ten sources, of which the most reliable one I'd argue is ADL which explicitly describes the website as "not extremist" and just containing such content due to its hands-off approach. Compare to their article on Gab where it is clearly stated the antisemitism is supported and embraced by their founder. A general association of the site with conservatism and "pro-Trump" seems to be more common from more reputable sources than the ones used for the term, see 1, 2 and 3. I would be completely fine with leaving in the sidebar if there is a reputable source singling out the platform as supporting antisemitism, as e.g. clearly the case for Gab. --95.90.245.161 (talk) 00:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I oppose use of the sidebar template. an RfC said that "additions should be only be done rarely and for cases that are the most obvious", WP:SIDEBAR says that articles with this sort of sidebar should "be fairly tightly related", and I fail to see how these requirements are met by mentioning anti-semitism in the article. Jonmaxras's edit summary said "Added antisemitism sidebar. I understand this is somewhat of a bold edit, so feel free to revert and discuss on the talk page if you disagree." But attempts to revert have been re-reverted, although apparently more than one editor disagrees, and I believe there must be a consensus to keep it in (see WP:NOCONSENSUS). Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The antisemitism siderbar should be removed. It's obviously undue. - Daveout(talk) 19:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Agree. I was surprised to see that sidebar, and its presence frankly strikes me as a smear against the site. Most of the media coverage hasn't focused on antisemitic content or argued that it's pervasive on the site, though some have mentioned its presence in passing. Of course any social media site, including more mainstream ones like Facebook and Twitter, will have some antisemitic content. It's fair to say that such content is FAR less prevalent on Parler than on Gab, and the general understanding has long been that Gab was the Twitter-alternative that was more geared towards the larger "alt-right," while Parler was more geared towards mainline Trump-supporters and conservatives, the large majority of whom are pro-Israel. -2003:CA:871E:3633:2180:3D4F:4DF3:788 (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

"while Parler was more geared towards mainline Trump-supporters and conservatives, the large majority of whom are pro-Israel." - I'm not sure whether to flag this laughably false WP:OR with "citation needed" or just start laughing. IHateAccounts (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't get much more mainline Trump-supporter/conservative or pro-Israel than Ted Cruz. What's actually "laughably false" is your description of Senator Cruz as a "White Supremacist" in one of your comments above, an assertion which speaks volumes regarding your credibility on this topic! -2003:CA:871E:3633:2180:3D4F:4DF3:788 (talk) 23:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

US conservatives are overwhelmingly pro-Israel. That's an obvious fact. For example. It shouldn't be hard to find the exact figures somewhere in the internet. - Daveout(talk) 23:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/10/tech/what-is-parler/index.html "Accounts with swastikas as their profile pictures and disgusting racist posts are not hard to come by on Parler. Members of the Proud Boys, adherents of conspiracy theory QAnon, anti-government extremists and white supremacists all openly promote their views on Parler, according to an ADL report. "Holocaust denial, antisemitism, racism and other forms of bigotry are also easy to find," the ADL said." IHateAccounts (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

"US conservatives are overwhelmingly pro-Israel" - Can't take it any more. I'll be back when I'm done laughing. The idea that randomly announcing oneself "pro-israel" has anything to do with anti-semitism is mind-bogglingly uninformed. IHateAccounts (talk) 23:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Again, whether antisemitism is prominent on Parler has already been discussed at great length above. We can certainly discuss whether or not it's appropriate to include the antisemitism sidebar in this article, but whether or not sourcing describes antisemitism is pervasive on the site has already been decided in the above RfC. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Mysteriously Parler is anti-Semitic since January 9, 2021, before they were not, only now ... The same anti-Semitism as any other social network. All sources cited ad-hoc to smear the site for obvious reasons. I think such serious claims should be supported by sources prior to the controversy of President Trump's censorship. For now, mention can be made in the article, but not include the site in the stigma of an anti-Semitic category.90.69.60.202 (talk) 02:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to look at the page history; the description of antisemitism on Parler has been there for a whole lot longer than that. It is only the sidebar that is new. Also, I don't think anyone is trying to say that Parler the company is somehow antisemitic, nor do I think that the sidebar implies that. But Parler is a hotbed of antisemitism, which I imagine is why the sidebar was added. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

That is exactly why I added the sidebar. Parler has been extensively described as a very popular platform for antisemitism by a variety of reliable sources. The sidebar enables readers to learn more about different topics relating to antisemitism; if they want to of course. It would be disingenuous to mislead Wikipedia readers by saying the website does not host a ton of antisemitic content. Jonmaxras (talk) 04:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

First of all, I agree that Parler is anti-Semitic. But the posts on Parler stretch much further than that. They are anti-Hispanic, anti-left, Islamophobic, neo-confederate, and anti-democracy. The anti-semitism sidebar is inappropriate simply because it does not cover enough ground. I think, if we have one, a part of a series on neo-fascism would be more appropriate. Parler was the first mainstream fascist social media service, advertised to fascists and containing fascists. Fascism or neo-fascism would be appropriate. Anti-Semitism, while accurate, doesn't provide a full picture. RobotGoggles (talk) 14:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@RobotGoggles: So I do agree (a lot) with your assessment, however, I don't think that a fascism/neo-fascism sidebar would be fitting for the article. Primarily because the vast majority of sources, if not all, do not use that word. I don't think I've seen any news articles for Parler describing the content as fascist (even though you're not wrong, the word is absolutely accurate). Additionally, fascism (and neo-fascism) have a million subcategories; to me it feels like somewhat of a generic descriptor of the content. Many sources have documented extensively and specifically the prevalence of antisemitic/neo-Nazi content on Parler. Jonmaxras (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Second of all, Parler is not anti-semitic. It is a platform like all others, although recently it is associated with a flock of conservatives. This wikipedia article is about Parler the app and what its functions and employees do. The content that is put onto Parler has no relation to Parler because of Section 230. What's stopping me from labeling Facebook or Twitter as a series on antisemitism when Neo-Nazi's are also using the platform? 🍋Lemonpasta🍋 [talk] 03:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The antisemitism on Parler is heavily discussed in reliable sources, which is not the case with Facebook and Twitter. However, if you would like to discuss changes to the Facebook or Twitter articles, please do so on their respective talk pages; WP:OTHERCONTENT. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

That is not exactly true, there is not one article on the internet that talks about policies or employees who work for Parler as being anti-semitic. As I am Jewish, I find this to be quite appalling, unless anyone can prove myself wrong or mislead. The reason why you cannot label the other platforms as also being anti-Semitic is because they do not have policies or employee reflections that are anti-semitic. This is quoted from the Wiki article Section 230:

"Section 230 is a piece of Internet legislation in the United States, passed into law as part of the Communications Decency Act (CDA) of 1996 (a common name for Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996), formally codified as Section 230 of the Communications Act of 1934 at 47 U.S.C. § 230. Section 230 generally provides immunity for website publishers from third-party content. At its core, Section 230(c)(1) provides immunity from liability for providers and users of an "interactive computer service" who publish information provided by third-party users:

No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.

The statute in Section 230(c)(2) further provides "Good Samaritan" protection from civil liability for operators of interactive computer services in the removal or moderation of third-party material they deem obscene or offensive, even of constitutionally protected speech, as long as it is done in good faith.

Section 230 was developed in response to a pair of lawsuits against Internet service providers (ISPs) in the early 1990s that had different interpretations of whether the service providers should be treated as publishers or distributors of content created by its users. After passage of the Telecommunications Act, the CDA was challenged in courts and ruled by the Supreme Court in Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union(1997) to be unconstitutional, though Section 230 was determined to be severable from the rest of the legislation and remained in place. Since then, several legal challenges have validated the constitutionality of Section 230."

If users on Parler say anti-semitic things, no one can do anything legally because it is technically protected under the first amendment (it is considered anti-semitic hate speech, although again, nothing can be done about it, unless it is perceived as a harmful or deadly threat). Again, Parler is legally distanced from what others say on the platform which does not associate it with anti-semitic people using the platform, thus does not make Parler anti-semitic. It could be seen publicly as disappointing, but the platform itself is not expressly made with perpetrating anti-semitism. The evidence provided above only shows what people have said on the platform, but does not show any evidence of Parler itself expressing anti-semitism. I reiterate if everyone thinks this is anti-semitic, then all platforms should fairly be labeled as anti-semitic since anti-semitism exists almost everywhere. I rest my case. 🍋Lemonpasta🍋 [talk] 04:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lemonpasta: whether or not Parler is antisemitic/hosts antisemitic content is not the topic of this thread; this was already discussed above (#RfC: Should "antisemitism" be removed from the lead?). Additionally, it is not Wikipedia's job to decide how United States law should be interpreted. Parler gives a huge platform for antisemitic beliefs, which is why it's been decided already that antisemitism should be featured heavily in the article, and why I decided to include the sidebar. Yes, every social media website every likely has antisemitic content. However, unlike Parler, they contain moderation policies prohibiting hate speech, thus hate speech is not a dominant feature of those sites (even if those policies are extremely milquetoast, such is the case with Facebook and Twitter I'd argue). Jonmaxras (talk) 05:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

This thread keeps getting off-topic and I'd like to get somewhere near a consensus on the sidebar. As I originally stated at the beginning, I included it because Parler has an extensive history of hosting a lot of antisemitic and neo-Nazi content, as discussed above (#RfC: Should "antisemitism" be removed from the lead?). Including the sidebar is relevant due to how prominent the content is on the website. Just because Parler has (had?) a somewhat larger following of mainstream conservatives than Gab, that does not make the antisemitic content any less notable or relevant. I would like to include the sidebar here for the same reasons it is included on Gab. Jonmaxras (talk) 04:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Weak Delete. Having a navbox and image at the top of the article is a lot of WP:WEIGHT. So any company that hosts an unmoderated Internet forum can end up with this navbox at the top of their article? This concerns me. It might be more appropriate as a footer navbox, or to not include it in the company articles (but include it in the main antisemitism articles). –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment the sidebar would of course only ever be included on websites where neo-Nazi/antisemitism is extremely common and notable, whether that is through a lack of moderation (Parler and Gab) or through relative moderation (Stormfront, which is explicitly a white supremacist internet forum). This sidebar would not end up on a website that has not been determined by reliable sources to be a hotbed for antisemitic content. Doing so would technically be vandalism and those edits would be reverted. Jonmaxras (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Jonmaxras. If the New York Times has described a site as a place where "anti-Semitism abounds", then the sidebar is likely warranted; if no reliable sources have taken note, then it wouldn't be. XOR'easter (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with @Novem Linguae:, it is concerning and disgusting to start labeling everything as antisemitism to lambast particular platforms seeking overall neutrality. This is definitely an assumed overreach with some purportedly politically motivated wiki administrators who possibly used bias sources to allegedly propagate their decision to allow the info-box. There is hate speech on all platforms in a similar or equal fashion, no matter what their gimcrack policies are, it is common sense. We can all agree on Stormfront because they advertise their white nationalism on the front page of their website, the others I reckon do not do anything remotely close to directly supporting alleged Neo-Nazi's as a platform. Sadly, Wikipedia is ostensibly becoming more of an editorialized encyclopedia masked behind steadfast bias decisions, bias resources, and fancy words. 🍋Lemonpasta🍋 [talk] 09:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lemonpasta: for the third time, that is not what I'm doing here and that is not the topic of discussion. I can't overstate how much I resent your accusation of political motivation on my including the sidebar. Your justification is duplicitous at best, and as @IHateAccounts: stated below is a Mandy argument. This thread is solely on whether the sidebar fits with the content of the article. Not whether the founders are antisemitic, not whether they encourage or discourage any one political ideology, and not whether Parler contains antisemitic content (which I will remind you AGAIN has already been discussed at great length above). Maybe the sidebar should stay. Maybe it should be moved to the content section. Maybe it should be completely removed. But you are not providing anything backing up your claims other than anecdotes and false balance. My thought process for including it was exactly "This is highly relevant, based on the article's content and reliable sources. It would be helpful because it gives readers an opportunity to learn about a relevant topic they might not otherwise be familiar with." It was not, "I am going to trash this company for starting a 'free speech' social network." Jonmaxras (talk) 20:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lemonpasta: That is an absolutely unacceptable way to speak to other editors. Comment on content, not contributors. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Keep, Weak Move to #Content section of the article. The connection is amply sourced and in the article, so there is zero reason to delete the sidebar, however there might be an argument to move the sidebar further down the article (perhaps to section #Content) - this is often done in WP articles. I would also like to urge Lemonpasta to calm the rhetoric a bit, "definitely an assumed overreach with some purportedly politically motivated wiki administrators who possibly used bias sources to allegedly propagate their decision to allow the info-box" is an hilarious sentence but surely uses a lot of "fancy words", and is otherwise not very helpful... Mvbaron (talk) 09:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• ’’’Strong Delete’’’ - Refusing to censor controversial material =/= promoting controversial material. People can personally cling to logical fallacies like “they must be against Jews because they won’t delete attacks on Jews” if they want, but these logical fallacies should not be incorporated into WP. PCHS-NJROTC ^{(Messages)Have a blessed day.} 14:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Opposed already by perhaps as many as 10 editors. I gathered this by looking at the comments in this thread, the attempts to remove the sidebar according to this article's history, and the attempts to remove the sidebar according to the sidebar template's history. If JonMaxras wants to start an RfC after failing to get somewhere near a consensus on the sidebar, that's fine and we'll refute again, meanwhile the sidebar should be out. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

  Peter Gulutzan, that's not how it works. There can be 100 editors writing "oppose" with no reasons and only 1 editor writing "keep" but with a valid reason for inclusion - and it will be kept, because consensus is evaluated by looking at the arguments and not at the numbers. Mvbaron (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Opposing editors gave reasons so that speculation is irrelevant.Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep and possibly move to the "Contect" section, as suggested by Mvbaron (and by myself, somewhere up there). The connection is amply sourced, and as sidebars go, this one provides a helpful context without imposing too much clutter on the page. Arguments like "all social media sites have hosted anti-Semitic remarks on them somewhere" are specious; we're not making the judgment ourselves, but following what the reporting has said. Likewise, it's beside the point whether Parler's owners are legally not liable for what the users post, or that the company didn't paste the Fourteen Words across the login screen. The sources describe what is found within the content the users post. XOR'easter (talk) 16:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Keep per Mvbaron, XOR'Easter, Jonmaxras. Extremely warranted given the outsized prevalence of antisemitism on the platform, Parler's origin as specifically designed to host the sorts of content (including antisemitism) that is banned from other platform. Unduly self-serving claims that Parler is supposedly only about "neutrality" or "free speech" fall squarely into the WP:MANDY area. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:40, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Keep. The platform has been heavily reported on by many a verifiable and creditable source as hosting numerous either anti-semitic in origin (spoiler, that's the theories purporting a "new world order" of some kind run by people who Aren't Quite Human) or out-and-out anti-semitic. I also feel that if any other relevant sidebars are available related to far-right/alt-right platforms and the like, they should be included as well, to cover the full range of hateful content found in Parler. It's true that it's just a platform; it's not true that its content follows as such and is Entirely Balanced Between Right And Left. Anyone with eyes or the ability to meaningfully process words could recognise that.

It should be noted that there are a fair few editors opposing this; it should also be noted that the content of what they are saying doesn't actually hold much impact beyond numbers-stuffing. Sheer number of votes, in this instance, should not be placed as a blanket consensus with little regard to the content of the votes. Any controversial topic, or article prone to edit warring, is prone to this happening. But the numerous, verifiable and noteworthy sources used to reference this article are clear: Parler does host a considerable quantity of anti-semitic, far-right and alt-right and hate speech content. This is not something that can be called into question.

Even if community consensus on the status of Parler as a platform for hate speech is an undecided-upon topic, community consensus as to what counts as a verifiable source is clear. This article is not stuffed with unverifiable sources, as some are. Based on this, and this alone, the consensus that all verifiable sources involved report Parler as engaging in and particularly highlighting and platforming hate speech with little to no moderation allowing for its rampant creation should be exceedingly clear to all involved, and this explicitly includes anti-semitism as a notable and noxious branch of hate speech. That's all I have to say on the matter. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: So I did some Google advanced search and this is what I found: When I searched for pages necessarily containing both “Parler” and “Antisemitism”, 65.900 pages were found. When I searched for pages containing “Parler” that didn’t mention “Antisemitism”, 73.500.000 pages were found (including many reliable sources). Of course, this isn’t some sort of perfect proof of anything, but it may serve as some sort “hint” or “indication” that Parler isn’t so commonly linked to antisemitism as some editors are trying to make it seem. This could also indicate that the “antisemitism” sources may have been unintentionally cherry-picked in the previous rfc. (I restricted the search for English results only and from the last 12-months only, so there would be no French page using the word parler for other purposes). Feel free to re-do this test and tell what you’ve found. - Daveout(talk) 01:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment I hate to sound crass or like I'm dismissing your viewpoint, but I must make it clear (again) that this thread is only about the existence of the sidebar on the article, not on the prevalence of antisemitic content on Parler (which has already been discussed at great length above). @Ineffablebookkeeper: has done a far better job than myself summarizing any rationale behind including it. For now, I'm out of energy and need some sleep. Jonmaxras (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't sound crass and I appreciate your feedback. However, some editors stressed that this isn't a vote and that the arguments are what count, so I wanted to expand on my reasoning. Since nearly all ppl in favor of the siderbar argued that antisemitism is a significant part of the social media (based on the previous rfc), it is no surprise that my counterargument questions that claim. For instance, Ineffablebookkeeper's comment above starts with:

The platform has been heavily reported on by many a verifiable and creditable source as hosting numerous either anti-semitic in origin [...] or out-and-out anti-semitic.

Yeah, many reports linked Parler with antisemitism, but how many didn't? Shouldn't we acknowledge the ratio and put that into perspective?

I also want to add that Pulitzer prize winner journalist Glenn Greenwald (who happens to be jewish and is often described as a "far-left" journalist) wrote this about Parler: I’d be very surprised if more than a tiny fraction of liberals cheering Parler’s removal from the internet have ever used the platform or know anything about it other than the snippets they have been shown by those seeking to justify its destruction and to depict it as some neo-Nazi stronghold. He also wrote that there's far more "grotesque" content being promoted on facebook and youtube. - Daveout(talk) 14:42, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Greenwald is right, in that far-right content on Facebook and YouTube is a notable problem, at that moderation on both of those websites, and their structure, has led to and continues to lead towards far-right and alt-right radicalisation. Robert Evans did a great four-part series on Facebook's essential engagement and platforming of content that has notably led to more than one genocide outside of the Western world on his podcast Behind the Bastards; key points were that, similar to YouTube's recommended videos function working as a rabbit hole of radicalised content for users, Facebook's recommended groups function does much of the same, leading people towards insular groups where radicalisation and escalation of violence commonly takes place.

I had a discussion similar to this with someone else earlier today; I brought up the issue of the Talk page for Parler being a monumental nightmare at the minute. They brought up that Facebook and YouTube also have been known for their radicalisation content; if the Facebook and YouTube articles don't have this sidebar, then surely adding it to Parler is meaningless?

The answer I gave was that whataboutism is not a way to edit. As per WP:ORGANIZE, Wikipedia is not being edited and written in an organised and lockstep manner. The problems of Facebook and YouTube also hosting anti-semitic content, and that not being picked up on, is a problem for the Facebook and YouTube Talk pages.

Many reports link Parler with antisemitism, but some will not lead with that, or describe it in the article's content. This might be because a), the publisher has already covered it in previous articles, making it pointless to restate every single time, b), even in the digital age, editors and writers will only have so many words they can put into a piece - you can't cover every crime in 1,500 words - and c), they haven't acknowledged, or have refused to acknowledge, what has been detailed elsewhere in other verifiable sources - that Parler hosts notable antisemitic content.

I mean. Common sense. If it looks like an antisemitic duck, quacks like an antisemitic duck, and incites the storming of the US Capitol building from the position of at times an antisemitic duck, perhaps it's an antisemitic duck. As others have pointed out somewhere within the quagmire of this Talk page as it stands, if you invite 1 Nazi to dinner and 11 other people who when asked respond "Nazi? What Nazi?", then you've invited 12 Nazis to dinner. You cannot stuff your fingers in your ears, shout "lalalala I Do Not See It", and point to a handful of articles that in passing or outright refuse to mention Parler's hosting of hate content, including antisemitism. Just because you can find sources that don't mention it, doesn't mean they're WP:VERIFIABLE or evidence of some great consensus we are all steamrollering past.

I'm unfamiliar with Greenwald, but as GorillaWarfare has described, he is seemingly not as reputable as he once was. This isn't unusual for some left-wing publications; The Guardian (UK) is not would I would describe as a stalwart of left-wing politics anymore due to its worryingly solid engagement and platforming of transphobia, for example.

Greenwald may be Jewish himself, but you can find minorities who support or take a milquetoast approach on any number of issues that might relate to their identity. You can, for instance, in Blaire White and Buck Angel, find transphobic trans people, as deeply stupid as that sounds. The ideas and views of one minority member do not an unheard consensus make. You can literally take one cohort of a minority and find any viewpoint you want within them, it doesn't mean anything.

The comment of "Shouldn't we acknowledge the ratio and put that into perspective?" is meaningless, I'm sorry, but it genuinely is. Going back to the UK Guardian - from a numbers standpoint, you could take a long, hard look at just how many otherwise "reputable" UK newspapers publish transphobic content that brings trans rights into question and doubt, and suddenly declare that trans people are actually talking out of their arses, right now. It wouldn't make it true. It just means you've found a lot of transphobic articles from a lot of reputable newspapers.

Trying to stack the cards in the other direction purely from a numbers perspective, and not one that actually looks at what the articles are saying, who they were written by, and how reputable they are, is just wrong. Wrong, unencyclopedic, and, as I think you probably know, the dumber option. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Greenwald may once have been described as far-left, and was also once a reputable journalist. I don't think either can safely be said to be the case anymore, given his somewhat recent departure from The Intercept due to his refusal to have his work fact-checked. There was some discussion about him four months ago at Talk:Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory/Archive 3#Glenn Greenwald Article on Hunter-Biden Emails. According to the editor of his former publication, "he... was attempting to recycle a political campaign’s—the Trump campaign’s—dubious claims and launder them as journalism". GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Hej, about the first point you made, that's of course going nowhere: Just because there are innumerable texts written about the Earth that don't mention it's spherical shape, no sane/reputable encyclopedia would 'on that grounds' question it's spherical nature. Of course, if there are reputable sources that talk about how Parler has been misunderstood by virtually everyone, that might be fit for inclusion - on the note, do you have a source for the quotation in your 2nd paragraph? Mvbaron (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Side discussion about status quo and BRD

By the way, why no consensus was required to add the siderbar (even though users contested its addition), but a consensus is required to remove it? (aren't those proposing contested changes the ones who should wait for consensus? shouldn't the status quo be preserved in the meantime?) - Daveout(talk) 21:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Bold, revert, discuss. To my knowledge, nobody contested the sidebar specifically before I added it. Jonmaxras (talk) 21:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC) It was reverted six hours after it was added. here. - Daveout(talk) 21:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Again, before I added it Jonmaxras (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC) m:WRONGVERSION GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC) This isn't about page protection. - Daveout(talk) 21:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC) BRD is no policy or guideline - in a perfect world the first revert of the addition perhaps should've been discussed more. But seeing that the article very obviously makes the connections to antisemtism, and also seeing that (to my lights) no convincing arguments have been brought forward for removal of the sidebar, I think it was justified to revert subsequent removals of the sidebar. Mvbaron (talk) 22:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC) I'm not criticizing Jonmaxras' bold addition. But his revision was contested by another editor shortly after, and admins demanded consensus to revert it. This is obviously wrong. I don't think I've ever seen an admin do this before. The right course of action should be to wait for consensus to include the contested change, not the other way around. - Daveout(talk) 22:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Daveout, I guess you're referring to this edit. I agree with you due to WP:NOCONSENSUS but let's give Cullen328 a chance to explain more. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC) I made a single revert acting as an editor. I was not taking an administrative action. I have no further interest in this tedious debate. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:03, 13 January 2021 (UTC) I think the demand of consensus is more of a 'well, this edit is here now; we could revert it, but seeing as this article concerns an ongoing and controversial item of discussion, consensus would be a good thing to set down before we go any further'. Sometimes, edits exist before the need for consensus is perceived. Sometimes, it's literally just timing. The riots were last week, Parler shut down this past weekend. Sometimes edits get out before the stable doors of consensus are bolted, and they make sense to keep in place anyway. Consensus-building, in order to point to editors in the future and then point to said consensus, and say "that one, right there", seems a good thing to do in lieu of a controversial topic. It saves time in the future. We hashed this out already; so that's that, so to speak. Also; I think, or I'd hope, that I'm right in saying that for most active Wikipedia editors who contribute positively to the project, this didn't seem like an edit that would require consensus, before the somewhat-predictable influx of new accounts and IP editors streamrollered the Talk page. This article is well-written. It's well-sourced. I've edited some pages with bare URLs and geocities links for references. Large articles. Within the past three years. This is, obviously, not that. So while the addition may seem controversial to some, from a standpoint of a number of editors already in understanding of Wikipedia's policies on verifiable sourcing, it's more of an obvious and understandable change. I hope that makes sense.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Just a thought, but I think it would be a better use of time to focus on advancing this discussion towards consensus rather than going back and forth over whether the page is at the "right version" while discussion happens. That was what I was trying to convey with my m:WRONGVERSION link, though it appears the wisdom at that link has been tossed aside due to an overly literal reading... GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC) WP:BRD isn't a policy, but WP:TALKDONTREVERT is. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Blatant bias

From the first sentence, this page contains so much bias to the point where it's disgusting. I recommend that this page be extended protected so that unbiased moderators can fix the mess. In no way or form does this article follow the NPOV guidelines set by Wikipedia. NorfolkIsland123 (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Please explain exactly what language you object to and why you don't believe it's appropriately sourced and written. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree. This was supposed to be an article about a tech platform, but what users get is an article about politics. No other social media platform is described politically in Wikipedia, but Parler and Gab. Can you picture how ridiculous it would be if a right-wing activist changed the entry paragraph of Twitter's article to something like: "Twitter is a microblogging famous for banning people they don't agree upon, that once banned the president of the United States while giving voice to Iran's dictator Khamenei'. As ridiculous as it sounds, that's exactly how this article is being handled. It's obvious that the political debate should be in a section of the article, not in the definition. It's obvious that the users that wrote this article are more interested in defaming the platform than to write an encyclopedia article. This kind of bias diminishes Wikipedia's purpose as a whole.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.245.161 (talk • contribs) — 95.90.245.161 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid argument for changes. The article follows the WP:DUE WP:WEIGHT of coverage by reliable sources. Twitter's history and news coverage is vastly different from Parler's, thus the coverage on wikipedia is likewise different. IHateAccounts (talk) 00:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Exactly so. It's not our job to create a parity where none exists. XOR'easter (talk) 01:01, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@95.90.245.161: You seem to have quite a bone to pick for portraying far-right and extremist social networks in a more positive light. You've never contributed to Wikipedia before today and your non-talk page edit was borderline vandalism based on anecdotal personal views. If a social network has a large following of white supremacists, it's gonna be mentioned as that's pretty notable. Wikipedia does not exist to create bias and make objectionable views more palatable. We call a spade a spade. Jonmaxras (talk) 01:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I come here for neutral information- not the "controversy" section of an article. It's like you have never read a paper encyclopedia before to see what one looks like. They're not meant to serve to legitimize a viewpoint. "Lincoln led the nation through the American Civil War, the country's greatest moral, constitutional, and political crisis. He succeeded in preserving the Union, abolishing slavery, bolstering the federal government, and modernizing the U.S. economy." or "Abraham Lincoln is regarded by come as an extremist who perpetrated civil war." I don't need an interpretation of events. That's up to me.(talk) 18:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jawz101: "Neutrality" on Wikipedia has a very specific meaning, described by our core policy on neutral point of view (NPOV). NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:23, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

That is an interesting article. Thank you for sharing. I come away from reading some of the bullet points wondering the same things it mentions. Undue weight comes to mind. I get enough from the article after a few sentences but then it goes on to be beaten into the reader. Why is this dinky site so important to throw this much weight at it? because today, this week it was a heated topic. Search the references for the word 'january' and see how much source material is from the past few days. Jawz101 (talk) 18:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jawz101: I'm not sure I follow—what is it that you feel is given undue weight in this article? GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

and all of those sources are about a riot- not parler. was the riot organized on parler?Jawz101 (talk) 18:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE applies to the weight devoted to subjects in the article content, not to references. We use as many references as are needed to verify information, and so long as they are sufficiently reliable sources there's no real reason to remove them (though they can be bundled if necessary to avoid visual overload). GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I guess we can agree to disagree. I just came here to learn about what Parler is and it looks like there wouldn't be one cat video on itJawz101 (talk) 19:11, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

After thinking about this more I have to come back to this. Clearly there are people here that feel this entry is bias. So much so to sign in and say so politely on the Talk page and not edit the article directly to give the platform and community respectful discourse. A common theme I see on Wikipedia is a bunch of entries primed with a heavily weighted viewpoint, a bunch of people express they notice bias, then a few people respond with some link to neutral Wikipedia rules, and say "prove it with sources." That is not a community repository. If you don't understand the frustration, Wikipedia loses its credibility.Jawz101 (talk) 01:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Asking people to support their proposed changes with sources is a core part of how Wikipedia works, and if you object to that I'm not sure how anyone here can help you. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

You're being too judgmental and assuming bad faith. I'm just a user, I'm not a wikipedia editor. I just learned how to reply in conversations by seeing your response. I'm not an extremist, and for people like me, this article is CLEARLY biased to the point of being ridiculous. That's what everyone not in the left (independents and center-left included) will think after accessing this page. Want to keep it that way, fine for me, but I know and you know this is not an encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14c:65d2:4329:34b2:2c66:95b2:9a85 (talk) 02:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I was wrong to assume bad faith, and I apologize for being accusatory. I understand your concerns with the article coming off as biased to a right-wing audience, however, given the current American political climate, it's likely many far-right readers will consider this article biased no matter what unless it's changed to gushing praise, which would of course be disingenuous. The article is reliable sourced and contains a neutral POV. I do hope my earlier comment does not dissuade you from contributing to Wikipedia more. Jonmaxras (talk) 03:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm just a user, I'm not a wikipedia editor. -- this isn't a meaningful distinction ... which is good for you, because this page is only for editors, to discuss how to improve the article page. But that's not what your comments do--they are merely your opinions, expressed extraordinarily judgmentally. And "Want to keep it that way, fine for me, but I know and you know this is not an encyclopedia article" does the very thing you complained about--it assumes bad faith. The fact is that this page is encyclopedic, and follows Wikipedia's policies. -- 72.194.4.183 (talk) 06:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The Wikipedia policy on neutral point of view requires that we represent fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Can you please explain whether a) you feel that there are other significant views published by reliable sources that present a different viewpoint that needs to be represented in this page, or b) the article does not represent the current sources that are being used? If a), please provide links to the reliable sources that you have found, ensuring they meet the policy on reliable sourcing. If you are unsure, WP:RSP contains a long list of commonly-suggested sources along with the general consensus among the Wikipedia editing community on whether or not they are considered reliable. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I think that the simplest way to outline the heavy bias of this page, is comparing it to the Twitter entry. One page starts out with the criticism/slander leveled at the subject; The other gives a technical account of the platform, despite tons of very heavy criticism regarding blatant censorship, partisan banning, abuse of "fact checking", prevalence of incitement to violence and a lot more. To be clear - I think that Twitter is getting a fair treatment, while Parler is basically slandered here. You can "cite" extreme criticism about almost any idea, company, person, institution etc. Starting off with this kind of content is a disservice to the user, furthers the politicizing of Wikipedia - and rather rude. Imdfl (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating a point that has been made on this Talk page quite often: Twitter is a different company that has received different coverage. Twitter is not defined by its politics the way that Parler is. XOR'easter (talk) 19:16, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. I would recommend, Imdfl, that you ctrl-f "Twitter" on this page and in the recent archives, as that has been discussed quite extensively. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Read wp:or and wp:v before you answer.Slatersteven (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Biography

considering CEO John Matze doesnt have his own article, I feel like this page should at least contain some biographical info on him, especially with the enormous attention Parler is getting recently. jonas (talk) 02:34, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you suggest specifically what you think ought to be added, with sources to support? GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:28, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

This would be the wrong place for it. You could create a page for him if he's notable for anything else. -- 72.194.4.183 (talk) 06:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Amazon hosting.

Amazon is booting Parler. Link for consumption.--Jorm (talk) 02:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Well that ought to be interesting. "Amy Peikoff, responsible for policy on #Parler, just said on the Tucker Carlson show, if their internet hosting provider takes down the servers, it's the end of the platform." Don't understand why they wouldn't just move over to a different services provider like all the other alt-tech services have... GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Dunno how much you know about AWS hosting but their architecture is deep into AWS specific services. They have to rewrite from scratch. They're done. There's never going to be any new apps for it anymore (Apple and Google dropped them) and they can't update existing ones to point at new security certificates. So it's browser only, probably a 3 month time frame for development, and will have to be hosted on dark-web leaning, 3rd-world hosting systems.--Jorm (talk) 04:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Wonder what Gab did. Maybe they weren't using AWS to begin with. Matze says they "prepared for events like this by never relying on amazons proprietary infrastructure and building bare metal products", but also that they have to "rebuild from scratch" and may be off the internet for a week. [28] GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Isn't Gab built on Mastodon core code? That's intended to be portable and the datastore is localized. I think Parler was built from the ground up in AWS, and my understanding is that development was done by ex-Amazonians. A week is... very optimistic. I could probably write the core of what it is in a week, but it wouldn't be tested for anything and probably would only work with 5 users at a time. --Jorm (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

It is now, but it wasn't always. And yeah, I'm not sure how "we prepared for this by not relying on Amazon's infra" and "we have to rebuild from scratch" are compatible statements. I guess we'll see! GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

You well know that that this page is not for chitchat, which is clearly all that is going on in this section (past the first entry with the link). -- 72.194.4.183 (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

This thread seems to me like reasonably productive information gathering for purpose of developing the Parler article and related ones, rather than chitchat. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

GW, it looks from the Register article that I linked further down, that Parler was using 100s of servers. Getting a site that size running at a new host is sure to be a hassle. Lots of data to migrate and likely plenty of issues to work out getting the new stuff running even if their software setup is super clean, which nobody's is ;). That they were using that much hardware with no apparent revenue makes their financing an even more interesting question than it already was. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Rumble transitioning

Noted repeatedly Wikipietime (talk) 03:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Wikipietime: What? GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I suspect he means that the discussion among insurrectionists of their illegal plans is migrating to somewhere else. Or maybe not ... his talk page and other contributions seem deranged. -- 72.194.4.183 (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

"Further reading"

There's nothing wrong with "Further reading" sections in principle, of course, but the only entry in the one here is already used as a reference (currently #38), so it's not really "further". XOR'easter (talk) 14:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it for this reason. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Corporate HQ location in second sentence of intro

I reverted the insertion of It is based in Henderson, Nevada, United States as the second sentence of the introduction. To my eye, that is sidebar material, not second-sentene-of-lede content. What difference would it make if it were Wilmington, Delaware instead of Henderson, Nevada? How much of the media coverage has emphasized Henderson, Nevada instead of how easy it is to find QAnon content there? Likewise, the intro should summarize the main text, but the main text only mentions the HQ location once, versus the lengthy discussion of other things. It seems to me that foregrounding the HQ location would be like putting, say, the CU Denver computer-science department into the second sentence of the article. I've been re-reverted in turn, so I'm opening a discussion here (though I'd have thought that the discussion should have happened before the content was restored, not after). We've had plenty of debates about the lede on this Talk page, and the sentiment has been that what gets presented in the first couple lines is important. Thoughts? XOR'easter (talk) 14:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I vehemently agree with @XOR'easter:, it reduces focus on the extremist aspects of the service which are far and away the most notable. It does not fit the standards of any other social network page on Wikipedia, mainstream or otherwise, this info is nowhere near important enough to be in the first sentence. There has been a similar discussion on the Gab talk page and on this talk page not to reword the lead in such a way that changes the focus (grammatical edits are of course fine). I am changing this back to the original wording until a consensus is reached here, as it was widely accepted before being changed. @Störm: if you can provide reliable sources as to why the founders and city of founding are more important than what the service does, you're more than welcome to use them as justification. Jonmaxras (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2021

As an educator with a masters degree in information services, I must point out the following, if not already noted. Parler is described in a negative and opinionated manner and going a step further in linking it to current unlawful events while Twitter is written in purely historical text with no links to violent events (like BLM protests). Quite peculiar. Thank you for reading below, comparing and changing this biased information to reflect a much more appropriate and comparative view of both. The Parler entry is currently offensive and full of hate. (Although I am sure it was not intentional in any way.)

Twitter description: Twitter is an American microblogging and social networking service on which users post and interact with messages known as "tweets". Registered users can post, like and retweet tweets, but unregistered users can only read them. Users access Twitter through its website interface, through Short Message Service (SMS) or its mobile-device application software ("app").[13] Twitter, Inc. is based in San Francisco, California, and has more than 25 offices around the world.[14] Tweets were originally restricted to 140 characters, but was doubled to 280 for non-CJK languages in November 2017.[15] Audio and video tweets remain limited to 140 seconds for most accounts. 99.136.226.131 (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Please read the instructions on the template and provide actionable items, as well as sources that support your requested change.--Jorm (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

URL?

Should the URL be removed from the infobox? It no longer works, and it might be a while before they get it back up, if ever. See https://www.newsweek.com/parler-website-app-down-offline-longer-expected-ceo-john-matze-1560384 --Guy Macon (talk) 10:22, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

technically, it is a suspension. Link should remain, as amazon is reserving all data and will assist with the relocationTuffStuffMcG (talk) 11:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good. Let's let it be for at least 30 days and then revisit this. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-parler-aws

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 17:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

It also seems reasonable that parler.com might come up with a placeholder fairly soon even if the full Parler service does not, or does not for a while. It's comparatively much easier to find someone willing to host a website than it is to find someone willing to provide cloud computing services (and then for Parler to rebuild the infrastructure that may have relied on proprietary AWS tech). I agree that we should leave the URL for now, but if it remains offline for a long time we can remove it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Should the verbs be changed to past tense?

The website currently doesn't exist and the apps are non-functioning. Unless resurrected, it is currently dead. I think it should say "Parler *was* a social media..." Aryattack (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22223335/parler-amazon-terminates-web-hosting-aws-google-apple-capitol Aryattack (talk) 12:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

right now the infobox says it is "offline". If we wait a few days and Parler hasn't found an alternate webhost, then it will be safe to say it is disbanded for good. If we change "is" to "was" now, we would have to change it back when they find an alternate webhost.Caleb M1 (talk) 14:14, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

This is true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nar 2608 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

We follow the sources; if the tech press and the major national media switch to describing Parler in the past tense, so will we. But I don't think we need to rush to judgment. XOR'easter (talk) 16:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

They are building new infrastructures to host the platform so the answer is no, do not refer to Parler in past tense, because it currently still exists and looks like it will continue to exist in the future. 🍋Lemonpasta🍋 [talk] 02:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2021 (2)

Remove the mention of what content is posted on there because there is no source to back that up. Anyone can post anything and therefore these comments are partisan and do not belong on an academic outlet such as wikipedia. 45.59.40.221 (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows reliable sources coverage and the sourcing to the descriptions of common content on Parler is well documented. It will not be changed just because you incorrectly deem it "partisan". IHateAccounts (talk) 16:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Should we change the article into the past tense, since Parler is currently closed?

I'm not sure if we should do it. They could find a new host. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nar 2608 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

See the discussion already occurring two sections up. XOR'easter (talk) 16:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Data breach

Interesting reading — not sure how solid the source is, but if the story holds up, confirmation will doubtless be coming:

• Petkauskas, Vilius (January 11, 2021). "70TB of Parler users' messages, videos, and posts leaked by security researchers". Cybernews.

Apparently, when Twilio cut their ties with Parler, user account creation and verification failed open rather than closed. XOR'easter (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Went hunting and found another report, this time on Gizmodo. The security researcher has claimed that they will be hosting the data over at Internet Archive soon.[29] Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 16:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

"Security researchers" who found a glitch, exploited it and took away 70TB of a company's private client data, which they plan to release publicly....are refered to as "security researchers" in this context. That's new.

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/social-networking/news/80tb-parler-posts-photos-videos-leaked-by-security-researchers-law-enforcement-can-use-to-identify-january-6-attackers-2350920

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 22:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Vice and TechCrunch are calling them "hackers" (though both publications are yellow at RSP). Gizmodo, The Independent says "researchers". It appears the person leading the effort also self-identifies as a "hacker", though in my opinion people self-identifying as such generally mean it in a more positive way than publications that label people as such. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2021 (3)

To assert that Parler is a "right wing, etc. " platform is a full blown lie. This is an opinion from a very specific biased perspective, not a fact. Wikipedia needs immediately to correct the opening statement on Parler. 2601:640:C601:E360:1961:2D4D:13A8:FA6B (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Please read the rules on submitting edit requests. The article's content has been discussed extensively on the talk page. If you have reliable sources, feel free to provide them with specific changes you have in mind. Jonmaxras (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion on being January 10 or January 11

So Parler went offline on January 11 (EST) at Midnight. So it was the 11th for half the country and the 10th for half the country. Let's just get the discussion started and over with so we can have a consensus for which date to use.

{Since I do not know of any Wiki policies that actually impact this, I think a consensus will be a majority vote for this. Could be wrong though}

• 11th since the whole issue about being taken offline is related to the Capitol storming, which is EST, the 11th should be the date used when it went offline. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• According to the sources, Amazon told Parler they would take them offline at 11:59PM PST on January 10. Did it happen at a different time? If there's date ambiguity due to timezones we can just specify the timezone. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Check discussion above. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Just merged my comment into your discussion. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the time zone mention as it will be needed. The discussion is more of which time zone to list, EST (which is the "midnight" time/date) or PST (Where Parler HQ is). Elijahandskip (talk) 00:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Where is EST coming from? The sources I've seen mentioned PST. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

By George I think you got it. I honestly don't know how I missed that. lol. Close this discussion and I am fixing it to midnight PST time. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Rob Monster

Parler apparently claims[30] that Rob Monster's company (that also hosts Gab) will be hosting Parler going forward. I'll leave it to the big brains here to decide when and how to report/source this if it's used in the article. It should also go in the Rob Monster biography once it's considered accurate and documented. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 02:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@parlertakes is very much not the official Parler Twitter account; it's an account that has been quite critical of Parler and its users. A few reliable sources have published that Parler is using Epik's services as a domain registrar, but no one has said that Epik will be providing cloud computing services. I think it's too early to change the article, as them only moving their domain registration over to Epik isn't particularly noteworthy. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction about Parlertakes. I defer to you about when to update the article. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 07:56, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2021

Add libertarian, which the CEO noted she is in a recent interview. Also, remove the anti semitism sections, which seems far fetched and the reference article does not point to the site. Disclaimer777cc (talk) 03:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done The CEO is male, so I'm not sure who you're referring to. But this is not an article about him or his politics. As for antisemitism, past consensus has determined we should mention the antisemitism on the platform. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Disclaimer777cc may have been referring to Amy Peikoff, who is Parler's Chief Policy Officer rather than its CEO. Peikoff was on one of the financial news shows (the kind that interviews CEO's a lot) TV earlier today so I can understand the confusion. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 08:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC) (Edit: I don't remember what kind of show she was on. I wasn't really watching). 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2021 (2)

Would you change from "is" to "was", because this company is likely to be (almost) out of business. 2001:4452:4AE:8A00:185E:CD99:DA35:72CA (talk) 04:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

When reliable sources indicate this is the case, Wikipedia's coverage will be updated accordingly. For the moment, WP:RS coverage indicates that the company is not yet out of business. IHateAccounts (talk) 04:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The company is still in business. It is having a service outage that may turn out to be permanent, but we cannot see into the future. Several of its executives have been on TV in the past few days. I didn't pay attention to what they said, but it sounds like they are still trying to get back on the air (if they haven't yet). I never looked at the site while it was running, so I don't have a sense of what the obstacles would be, but I usually think of putting up a medium-sized web site (I think Parler must have been medium sized in the scheme of things) as not being all that big a deal. Unless it had deep technical dependence on AWS features (better put avoiding such dependencies into your personal Evil Overlord List), I expect they'll show up on a different set of servers after some migration work. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 07:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Tired of the political biases on this site.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This website is meant to bring information to people not someone's bias on the topic being searched. This site I used to use alot but it turns in to a biased views on history and other topics like here on the Parler site. You know people have posted far-right content on twitter but would never put that on twitter's wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:482:2:5CF0:113C:C592:E95D:6EFF (talk) 05:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

This is not a forum to complain and the article won't be changed just because you perceive it to be biased. If you have any actual suggestions to improve the article, feel free to provide them with reliable sourcing backing up your specific claims. Jonmaxras (talk) 05:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the point is "reliable sourcing" is what your bias permits. This is absolutely ridiculous, and judging by the editors of this page, I have no question politics (namely, their own) comes into play 2600:8805:A980:9E0:A849:4C4F:DD72:9DA5 (talk) 06:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Once again, this is not a forum to complain. Wikipedia's policy has always been to encourage a neutral point of view. That does not mean giving every perspective equal airtime, especially when those perspectives are not based in reality. Jonmaxras (talk) 06:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This person is correct. There is yoo much liberal bias in the editorial content on WP. Havequick99 (talk) 14:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Technology

I'd appreciate if people writing this article who have info about Parler's technology and infrastructure, plus things like its traffic levels, post counts, etc., could please add the info to the article if the info's sourcing is good enough for that. If you have something that seems credible and isn't contentious, but needs further research before it's considered reliable enough for the article proper, I'd say it's ok to put it here on the talk page as a starting point for others to dig into. I know that Parler was hosted on AWS which means they were setting a nontrivial amount of money on fire just for that. I'm interested to know how much traffic it was serving (not just the user count), what software it used, etc. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 08:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

WP:DOIT Mvbaron (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find much so far, but I hoped more knowledgeable people might have better places to look. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I believe that Parler was running a wordpress site with the WordPress Social Sharing Plugin "Sassy Social Share". Alas, I didn't know it existed until it was gone so I was not able to run my usual hacking analysis tools on it. Usually AWS lets you download a copy as it was when the site was shut down but this may be an exceptional case. Parler filed the suit against Amazon in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington today and I assume that AWS will freeze everything until this is resolved. It is also likely that the police have asked AWS to retain the info and deny access to it to the people who ran Parler. Any bets on whether the people running Parler were too dimwitted to make ongoing local backups?

Related: Scraped Parler data is a metadata gold mine --Guy Macon (talk) 09:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Guy, do you mean it was based on Wordpress *recently*? The features I saw described in the article didn't sound like Wordpress, but I never looked at Parler and I'm not that familiar with fancier Wordpress setups. This was interesting:

"We prepared for events like this by never relying on Amazon's proprietary infrastructure and building bare metal products," he said, leading to "the possibility Parler will be unavailable on the internet for up to a week as we rebuild from scratch." ...

"They [AWS] said you have 24 hours to take all your data and to find new servers," he said. "Where are you going to find 300 to 500 servers in a 24-hour window? And how can you send all the data from everybody out to them in a 24-hour period?"...

On LinkedIn a sales manager for HPC-as-a-service company Penguin Computing offered to host Parler so it may yet find an alternative host.

2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:40, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Per Alexa Parler was (today) the #180 site in the US and #848 in the world. The cross-engagement site list does look dominated by conservative media. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I find Parlers' claims to be inconsistent with their inability to put up a simple web page at parler.com. Just go to Dreamhost and point your DNS at a simple web page hosted pretty much anywhere. I can see why they would have trouble bringing up a copy of big site with many pages but pointing the A record at a simple HTML page? I could do that in my sleep.

Interesting handwaving from dreamhost, making a big deal about domain registry not being the same as content hosting: https://twitter.com/dreamhost/status/1347729331808841736 Also see:

• https://domainnamewire.com/2021/01/11/parler-com-domain-moves-to-epik/
• https://domaininvesting.com/parler-com-transfers-to-epik/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/comments/ktscfa/stop_going_after_dreamhost_they_cannot_help_take/

--Guy Macon (talk) 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

this isn't a forum, and Guy just insulted the intelligence of the subject's leadership. Not appropriateTuffStuffMcG (talk) 15:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

A technical discussion about the technology Parler was using is not using the web page as a forum. It is focused upon a possible future section on the technologies used. And analyzing what Parler's CEO says about Parler's infrastructure -- especially where it conflicts with the way most large website are set up -- is not an insult. Please go away and let us engineers discuss engineering topics in peace. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

"Dimwitted" was the word used.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

"Dimwitted" is correct. From the article: "According to Ars Technica and Wired, the reason the researcher was able to scrape the data so easily was due to the Parler website's poor coding quality and security flaws. Posts were numbered incrementally, and there was no authentication or rate limiting on the API, allowing researchers to exploit the vulnerability caused by insecure direct object reference. Furthermore, deleted posts were 'soft deleted': a flag was added to hide them, but they were not actually deleted. According to Wired, although all posts downloaded by the researcher were public, because Parler didn't scrub metadata, GPS coordinates of many users' homes had likely been exposed."

There is a word for running a website like that. That word is "dimwitted". Either they failed to hire anyone with any experience in securing a website or they hired someone and didn't follow their advice.

TuffStuffMcG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), I have read your posting history.

• Proud Boys.
• Parler.
• Enrique Tarrio.
• Joe Biggs.
• Smartmatic.

• Edits like these:[31][32][33][34][35][36]

You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Please leave me alone. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

• John Gruber[37] links a twitter thread by Dave Troy about Parler's business prospects, and Gruber comments a little bit about their tech issues.
• Buzzfeed reports[38] that Parler was spending $300K/month at AWS. It also has some screen caps of the correspondence between AWS and Parler about the shutdown. This link comes from another Gruber post.
• There is a subreddit https://reddit.com/r/Parler with a fair amount of media links that might be usable for the article. Might be worth keeping an eye on as events unfold. Nothing immediately jumped out at me in a quick look last night though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 17:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 16:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

A couple of replies to all the above:

• Wordpress. It's been claimed various times that Parler was "built on WordPress" or that there were "hacks" of Parler data based on their use of an unpatched WordPress install. However, this appears to be a rumor. Per Snopes, "Tech reporter Mikael Thalen noted that while this WordPress site may have once been used for simple blog posts, like announcements about the new social media site, it did not host any user data. Parler CEO John Matze disputed the rumors that his social media site was hacked, writing that 'we do not use WordPress products, nor WordPress databases.'"
• Preservation of data on AWS. In the email from Amazon to Parler that informed them they would be terminating service, which was leaked and reported upon by BuzzFeed News, Amazon wrote, "We will ensure that all of your data is preserved for you to migrate to your own servers, and will work with you as best as we can to help your migration."
• "Handwaving" by DreamHost about domain registry not being the same as content hosting. This is actually an important distinction. Domain name registrars simply manage the registration of domain names. Webhosts on the other hand actually store and serve data, as do cloud service providers like AWS (upon which more complex applications like Parler are built). I've mentioned elsewhere that Parler simply registering their name through Epik is not particularly noteworthy, because providing domain registry services to a controversial platform generally isn't that big of a deal to people compared to providing hosting. Epik has been in the news a handful of times for providing services to websites and platforms that host far-right content, and it is generally their choice to provide hosting to these companies that has gotten them in hot water. Generally speaking, people care much less about who is providing domain registration because even if you can find a registrar willing to work with you, you won't actually get a site or application up and running without a host (unless you have your own hardware, which is I believe what Gab does). It may be that Epik will also choose to provide server hosting to Parler, in which case I would expect a lot more news about it.

Hope this clarifies some things! GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

interesting commentary on how difficult it will be to completely avoid AWS server technology.

https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/parlers-new-serverless-architecture/ TuffStuffMcG (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

That article is not very convincing, though it mentions a few interesting things. EC2 VM's are just like any other VM's. One question is why they were using AWS in the first place though, if they weren't relying on special AWS features. AWS is ridiculously expensive compared to almost anything else they could use. The execs must have felt like they had money to burn, that presumably came from Mercer. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:47, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Parler vs Amazon lawsuit

[39] I'll leave this for others but I'm sure there are secondary sources. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 09:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• BBC. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Forbes 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

We mention it.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/01/parler-goes-dark-sues-amazon-to-demand-immediate-reinstatement/

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 15:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Post as many links as you like, you have not said what you want us to do.Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I see the mention now. I had earlier searched for the word "lawsuit" and missed it, but have since found it using "sued". Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 17:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2021

The description of this website is extremely opinionated and bias. It makes Parler seem like a right-wing extremist social media organization when it is actually a free-speech platform that welcomes anyone to speak freely and not be censored. Not supporting extreme censorship should not be labeled "right-wing" as this kind of censorship should be unacceptable to all people of every party. The description on wiki does not accurately portray Parler and it should be rewritten with less bias and contempt towards anything related towards conservitism. 2601:200:4:29BE:41D:F9D0:7E3F:6343 (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

please provide reliable sources for your suggested changes, not your personal opinion. The current wording is backed up by multiple sources. Please see also Neurtal point of view. Best Mvbaron (talk) 19:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Slanted?

Article seems kind of slanted by stating that Parler is full of trump supporters and right wing extremists. Anyone can join any time they want. It's not like there's a political questionnaire that you have to pass before joining. Conservatives are feeling pushed there by being silenced on twitter and Facebook. Heyman1104 (talk) 19:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC) — Heyman1104 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

As has been pointed out many times before, this article simply reflects what reliable media reporting has said about Parler. It's not our job to do anything but summarize and organize the existing coverage. XOR'easter (talk) 19:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

If you look at the Alexa page about Parler, the sites its visitors frequent most are conservative ones like the Daily Caller. There are also reports of Parler having booted off left-wing users.[40] It might be worth citing this in the article.

Following the recent shutdown of Voat, someone on Hacker News made an insightful and sad comment that could also apply to Parler:

But it doesn't work to have one popular platform which allows nearly everyone except for Those Deplorables and another that allows "everyone" but the only people with the incentive to move are the people being forcibly ejected from the popular one. Because witch hunts are bad, but if there is a place that owes its existence solely to a policy of not having witch hunts, it's going to be full of witches.[41]

When you add to that the background of Parler's founders and executives (see for example the wiki biography of Rebekah Mercer), it really does come across as a partisan activist site rather than a neutral one, despite its protestations otherwise. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 21:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Recent events have been dutifully summarized in a neutral and impartial way. I'm impressed with the professionalism of editors thus farTuffStuffMcG (talk) 04:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Request - need to harmonize "exfiltration" sections

There are two different parts of the article about the data exfiltration that need harmonization.

From the === 2021 === section:

Following the storming of the Capitol and just before Parler went offline, a web researcher scraped roughly 80 terabytes of Parler posts. The posts scraped make up 99% of Parler posts, including more than 1 million videos, which maintained GPS metadata identifying the exact locations of where the videos were recorded. The researcher's stated intention is to make a public record of "very incriminating" evidence against those who took part in the storming. The data dump was posted online, and the researcher has said the data will eventually be made available by the Internet Archive. According to Ars Technica, the reason the researcher was able to scrape the data so easily was due to the Parler website's poor coding and poor security.

From the === Security === section:

In January 2021, security researchers announced that they had exfiltrated more than 70 terabytes of text, photos and videos from the service before Amazon Web Services terminated hosting services leveraging flaws in Parler's email verification system enabled creation of accounts with administrative privileges. A crowdsourcing project extracted text, photos, and videos, including those marked private or that users had attempted to delete. According to security researchers, Exif data revealing location and timestamps remained in photos uploaded to the service. Researchers also claimed to have gathered identification documents supplied by owners of verified accounts, which researchers suggested could be useful in identification of participants in the storming of the United States Capitol earlier that month.

-- Fuzheado | Talk 20:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

References

@Fuzheado: I've just done so. We may want to discuss whether the information ought to go in one or the other section rather than both, though I'm not sure which is the best choice, as it appears to be an important event in the history of Parler as well as relevant to the service's security. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I concur, this is a hard one given the existing structure. Maybe make the specific incident a sub-heading of the security section? IHateAccounts (talk) 20:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare, agree there is no easy answer to this one but thanks for making the content consistent as we figure out next steps. -- Fuzheado | Talk 20:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2021 (2)

Parler protects your privacy and it allows freedom of speech not violence and AWS(Amazon Web Services) broke their contract with them cause they where supposed to give 30 day notice before they take down any thing instead they gave 30hours since Parler was growing and becoming a competitor with tweeter they broke their contract thus resulting in AWS getting sewed by Parler. side note it has a lot of conservatives users cause tweeter banned President Trump and any conservatives who think they don't have enough ground to do that. -Tom W. Lemke BlazingFox05 (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: No specified change. Wikipedia is not here to broadcast your opinion on Parler or Amazon contracts. Terasail^[✉] 22:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Parler sewed Amazon? What kind of stitch did they use?--Khajidha (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Parler did a pretty poor job protecting privacy, if you count the 70TB data leak full of personal info and geolocated images. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 00:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

NYT article

[42] describes reactions to the AWS shutdown. It quotes an ACLU lawyer:

Ben Wizner, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was understandable that no company wanted to be associated with the “repellent speech” that encouraged the breaching of the Capitol. But he said Parler’s situation was troubling.

Glenn Greenwald cited that quote in particular.[43]

This should be in the article in some form, I think. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The NYT source is potentially usable; Glenn Greenwald's Twitter account is not. I believe one of the WSJ article I recently added as a source made a similar point, though, I'll see about adding something based on those two. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Let me know if you have any feedback on this addition. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

It is somewhat weak in my opinion, though thanks for making a start at it. I'd spell out the ACLU's concerns a bit more, and also cite the mention of the opposing side. The EFF also has two recent posts, that I haven't yet read:[44][45]. Mozilla also has a response: [46]. There is a ton of other reaction to the shutdowns, most of it critical, and probably enough to warrant collecting into a section. I may hunt some more links later. I leave citing the Greenwald tweet up to you, but even if we don't cite it, I think it supports the notability of the ACLU quote. If Greenwald writes something more extensive on Substack I'll probably support using it. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 00:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Any RS mentions of what the EFF and Mozilla have said? Those would be more usable than the statements directly. Greenwald is not a reliable source, IMO, given his recent history, and his writing on Substack is WP:SPS. Regardless, any specific suggestions for changes are welcome. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I think it is ok to use EFF and Mozilla directly, though I'll look for secondary coverage. Is there something new about Greenwald besides the drama when he quit the Intercept a while back? I'd absolutely consider Greenwald to be a subject-matter expert per WP:SPS on free speech issues, so if he writes something from that angle on Substack, I'd want to use it. I'll look at the WSJ addition which I didn't notice earlier, though I think of them as a conservative outlet, and I'd think we want stuff from across the spectrum (Greenwald=left wing in most regards). Fox News has been going berserk too, though that doesn't exactly convey information. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

It probably would be okay to use EFF and Mozilla statements directly, yeah.

Re: Greenwald, yes, I'm referring to the issue with The Intercept—where he refused to allow a publication to fact check his work. That to me says he is not a reliable source, as well as the fairly widespread criticism of his choice to "launder" the Trump party line as journalism. As for your comment on Greenwald's placement in the political spectrum, he certainly used to be left-wing, but I don't think he can fairly be described as such recently. I'm not too worried about the distribution of sourcing at the moment—NYT and WSJ are both high-quality, one leftish and one rightish. But they can certainly be augmented with other RS. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll look into the Greenwald/Intercept thing a little more when I get a chance. I don't remember the dispute being about fact-checking per se: I thought it was more about (according to him) the Intercept and other media wanting to distort news coverage in the lead-up to an election, like the NYT possibly did[47] with James Risen's reporting in 2004. I guess we can discuss Greenwald further if he actually posts something that isn't reasonably well covered elsewhere. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 02:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Greenwald did write something.[48] I'll put it on my reading pile. Will also try to find some more from the tech press. That's a different angle regular news outlets, that we should try to present. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd question whether any opinions from Greenwald would be WP:DUE if not reported via secondary sources that clearly established their significance. XOR'easter (talk) 15:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Greenwald was mentioned above so I went digging for the conversation I was involved in a while back about his reliability, which was Talk:Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory/Archive 3#Glenn Greenwald Article on Hunter-Biden Emails. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There was also the thing with Greenwald being caught sockpuppeting on various blogs to promote himself in the mid-2000s, and just a general "fast-and-loose-with-the-facts" pattern to his reporting over the years. He's the rare unicorn in the room; an American "journalist" so far left that his tilt requires compromising ethical and journalistic standards in ways that are the norm for Fox and beyond. For example, the oddities of his Russian connections and invective against the Mueller investigation.[49] IHateAccounts (talk) 15:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

The idea that Greenwald's departure from the Intercept had to do with an unwillingness "to allow a publication to fact check his work", is completely misleading. First, The Intercept is not just "a publication" but a platform that Greenwald co-founded and which owed its reputation to a large extent to Greenwald's credentials as investigative journalist. Second, neither Greenwald himself nor the editors of The Intercept mentioned "fact checking", when they spoke about the fallout. Greenwald claimed that the editors demanded the removal of any criticism of Joe Biden. In this way, Greenwald says, known evidence would have been - not tested but dismissed. Indeed, it seems that Greenwald and not his (previous) colleagues wanted to check facts. In the larger context, the claim by GorillaWarfare - made twice on this page now - appears to be an attack on Greenwald's journalistic integrity. It is also worth pointing out that the whole affair has a much wider dimension, as this article shows and that speculations as to how "left" or "right" Greenwald might be - or have become - do not help a lot (he is not a Marxist, so to say he is "far-left" is a bit of a joke). Niemandsbucht (talk) 11:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

"Glenn demands the absolute right to determine what he will publish. He believes that anyone who disagrees with him is corrupt, and anyone who presumes to edit his words is a censor.... For now, it is important to make clear that our goal in editing his work was to ensure that it would be accurate and fair. While he accuses us of political bias, it was he who was attempting to recycle the dubious claims of a political campaign — the Trump campaign — and launder them as journalism." [50]

"it is absolutely not true that Glenn Greenwald was asked to remove all sections critical of Joe Biden from his article. He was asked to support his claims and innuendo about corrupt actions by Joe Biden with evidence." [51]

There is certainly some he-said/she-said happening here, and it's fair if you wish to believe Greenwald's version of events rather than Reed's, but no one is being misleading. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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im an independent but this article does seem pretty biased skewed left — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leothenormal (talk • contribs) 15:39, 13 January 2021 (UTC) — Leothenormal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

So do you have a propsed change?Slatersteven (talk) 15:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

This seems to be a classic WP:NOTFORUM type post. IHateAccounts (talk) 15:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Leothenormal: This page explains how we decide what to include in articles. Put simply, we reflect what has been written in reliable sources and if you consider those biased, it is likely reflected here. If you think there are any parts of the article that are not representative of coverage in reliable sources then please let us know. SmartSE (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trump veto

Regarding the recent addition of "On December 23, President Donald Trump vetoed the William M. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021 in part because it did not repeal Section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act, which shields internet companies from being liable for what is posted on their websites by third parties." to this article by Enthusiast01: in my opinion this feels misplaced. While I'm sure it would be relevant to William M. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021 and Section 230, there is no statement in-text (or in the provided sources) about how this applies to Parler, nor do I think we should add one. There is also no mention of the veto override, which is an important detail.

It doesn't make sense to write about this veto on all of the articles of web companies that could potentially be affected by a Section 230 repeal; there are thousands of them. Any content about Section 230 that is directly relevant to Parler, for example perhaps the very unusual choice for Parler to issue a statement in support of repealing 230, could be added. Anything else should be saved for the articles that go into proper detail on the legislation, in my opinion.

What do you think? GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

As you'll see I have already reverted this. It seems pretty obvious that when none of the sources mention Parler, it does not belong here. SmartSE (talk) 17:08, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I concur. Without reliable sources drawing a definitive line from the veto to Parler, it's off-topic here. XOR'easter (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, without sources specifically mentioning Parler I don't think it's relevant. Jonmaxras (talk) 17:37, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the point being made here. However, I also believe, it is no coincidence that there have been attacks on various social media sites like Twitter which try to reign in some of the misuse of the site by some users. The attacks have been especially nasty since Trump has been blocked on Twitter and other sites. And, by the way - there is plenty of mention of non Parler sites in the same section, without objection being raised. Enthusiast01 (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Enthusiast01: Can you clarify what you're referring to when you say And, by the way - there is plenty of mention of non Parler sites in the same section, without objection being raised.? GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:08, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I’m not objecting to mentioning of other sites such as Twitter or Facebook and calling them Tech Tyrants etc. The point is, mentioning the other sites adds to this article and provides context. Similarly, Trump’s and Co.’s attacks on “Big Tech” also adds to context, as promoting the alternative media, in this case Parler. Enthusiast01 (talk) 19:05, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. Yeah, and I'm not objecting to mentioning Section 230 or Trump and co.'s attempts to overturn it, we just need to make sure it's clear how it specifically relates to Parler. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Enthusiast01, I also think it is misplaced and too "backgroundy" to include here unless Parler is directly mentioned by Trump or other parties as it relates to the veto. As far as I can see, no one did. So a lengthy explanation of Section 230 and the political climate around it for 2020 should stay in the other articles. -- Fuzheado | Talk 20:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I think this is worth some thought and research. I will see what I can do, though I can't spend much time on this stuff. Someone on Hacker News brought it up about a week ago too. Parler's shutdown is one of a cluster of events that resemble each other enough to be related. If we've got a reasonable source calling out the similarity, we should use it. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Capture of when the web was available

Since the link to the web page is not available it would be convenient to place a link to the last screenshot of this from the Web Archive. https://web.archive.org/web/20210111080256/https://parler.com/
--PatriaDeTodos (talk) 19:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Given that the status of the platform/company is currently unknown, I think we should hold off for now. Likely in a week or two, it'll either be back online in some form, or permanently dead. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, my thought is we should either remove the link, or leave the parler.com link. Linking to an archived copy of a splash page doesn't add much value IMO. I think it was roughly agreed earlier that we'd wait for a bit before removing the link, unless it becomes clear that Parler won't be coming back online. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the URL link for now. It can always be returned if the site does come back, and we won't have people asking why the link doesn't work. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

But that way there will be people asking where the url is... The way it has been handled at e.g. Silk_Road_(marketplace) is using {{Onion defunct}} which adds ^(defunct) after the URL. I can't see an equivalent template to use for non-onion links, but unlinking and adding ^(defunct) or adding {{deadlink}} after it would seem like the best option for now. SmartSE (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Be the change you wish to see in the world {{website defunct}} GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Destruction of Parler Increasing Radicalization of Diaspora Community

In the frenzy of trying to not be supressed, Parler users are scrambling and making hasty choices about life-boats to grab on to.

The results point to deeper radicalization

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/01/on-telegram-white-nationalists-are-trying-to-radicalize-those-fleeing-parler/ TuffStuffMcG (talk) 21:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I've added a long list of sites which The Guardian have reported that users have migrated to. It is admittedly about Trump supporters in general rather than specifically about Parler, but it is mentioned several times. NBC also reported about a flux of users to Telegram and is more explicit about them coming from Parler, so it may merit adding a little more detail about Telegram. SmartSE (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

TuffStuffMcG, Smartse - Yeah I'm of two minds about this. The stories about Telegram taking up all the Parler users is highly speculative at this time and there are no good numbers around it. So while a mention may be warranted, I hesitate to put too much weight behind it. -- Fuzheado | Talk 20:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

There is a published argument in the other direction that I'll try to find. Basically it says pushing lunatics to the fringes is better than having them in the mainstream. There is another one that said if we just had plain old free speech competing on its merits things would be fine, but instead we have engagement-boosting algorithms focusing more attention on anger and conflict, which in turn generates more anger and conflict, etc. In other words the Parler phenomenon results from the ad-funded internet and social media algorithmic feeds, and the answer is to break up Facebook, Google, etc. I can probably find some RS-ish publications that say things like this, though they may be too old to mention Parler specifically. But it's an area of thought whose existence we should note if we can. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 10:59, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

More commentary

I'm not sure whether this might be useful, or if so where, but it seems worth posting here to see if anyone else has thoughts:

• Bode, Karl (January 13, 2021). "Pirate Bay Founder Thinks Parler's Inability to Stay Online Is 'Embarrassing'". Vice.

XOR'easter (talk) 23:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

it is embarassing. I understand why they would leave the front page down, it makes more of an effect for their lawsuit to show that the actions were ruinous. I always felt it was a honey trap, though, with their ID process in order to secure badges. I'm suprised that there isn't more discussion about that.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 00:25, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Another news item in the "maybe useful" category:

• Mack, David (January 13, 2021). "A Proud Boys Member Allegedly Threatened To Kill Senator-Elect Raphael Warnock On Parler". Buzzfeed News.

XOR'easter (talk) 03:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't feel like it is going to be that useful. Going that specific about threats of violence on the platform doesn't really seem like something this article is in need of. While yes, I don't doubt the accuracy of the article, if the article didn't already have enough talks of violence and hate, I would think we should include it. Ethan Parmet (talk) 02:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I saw a forum comment suggesting that Parler's ID requirements and other aspects of its TOS were geared towards a world without Section 230. I thought that was interesting. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 06:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Can we say "was" now instead of "is"?

It's offline and being reported the CEO is unsure if they will ever be able to get back up online now. I'd say irs safe to say its dead Sneakycrown (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Current wP:RS reporting is citing Matze as saying "We don’t know yet" and using qualifying language such as may not return.[52] At this point, the listing of current status as "Current status Offline since January 10, 2021[6][7]" is sufficient. Once WP:RS start saying it's gone for good, that can be reflected here. IHateAccounts (talk) 00:38, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

" ...content that threatens the public safety, such as by inciting and planning the rape, torture, and assassination of named public officials and private citizens."

" 'This case is not about suppressing speech or stifling viewpoints. It is not about a conspiracy to restrain trade,' Amazon's attorneys wrote in a filing late Tuesday. 'Instead, this case is about Parler’s demonstrated unwillingness and inability to remove from the servers of Amazon Web Services (AWS) content that threatens the public safety, such as by inciting and planning the rape, torture, and assassination of named public officials and private citizens.' " Source: USA Today --Guy Macon (talk) 16:20, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

In the days prior to the deplatforming, Parler removed a post by lin Wood which they believed threatened the life of Mike Pence. There is no question that threats of violence are not allowed and will be reported and removed from Parler, the central point seems to be that Parler isny a massive multinational corporation with the scale to effectively police and censor the comments.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/09/politics/parler-lin-wood-mike-pence/index.html

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The lack of a moderation team large enough to handle Parler's scale is mentioned already at Parler#Moderation, as is some discussion of their attempts to increase the size of the team. Are you suggesting something else be added? Discussion of the one specific comment by L. Lin Wood seems more relevant to L. Lin Wood (where it is indeed mentioned) than here, in my opinion. I'm not sure we can use their willingness to remove one comment to refute the claim by Amazon without violating WP:SYNTH. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

There are many indications that Parler reported threats of violence to law enforcement and applied it's terms of use. Before the election cycle, I remember reading major publications about Parler deplatforming trolls for breach of terms. These articles were an attempt to prove that Parler wasn't actually a free speech utopia, in an effort to criticize their raison d'etre. I will try to find a few. Here is an article describing that Parler was working with law enforcement before it was shut down regarding violent posts.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2021/01/14/weeks-before-the-siege-the-fbi-was-investigating-parler-users-call-for-proud-boys-violence-on-capitol-hill/?sh=559a75806a0c

TuffStuffMcG (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the concern is that Parler was never reporting or taking down threats of violence; it seems that AWS et al were just convinced that they were not doing enough to do so. If you don't think the article is clear enough on that, do you have suggestions for how it could be clearer? GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

currently, it reads as if those closing their business did so because Parler failed to moderate violent content. Their "requested" content moderation plans, from other reports, didn't limit the content needing to be removed to the violent and unlawful which went without saying - but extended to lawful speech that was found objectionable as well. Effectively, they were told that, irrespective of their violence moderation policies they enhanced, the fact that lawful speech which violated AWS, apple, and google terms was present made the situation impossible. It is an important distinction, because even though the capitol riots were the cause of the review, the objectionable free speech was the reason for the termination and whatade it unavoidable. Currently, the article reads as if Parler refused to enforce laws against violent content.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Maybe that's because Parler advertised itself as not doing enforcement. "Parler Pitched Itself as Twitter Without Rules. Not Anymore, Apple and Google Said." "In the eyes of many of Mr. Trump’s supporters, Parler was a safe haven from so-called Big Tech censorship — a place where they could espouse conspiracy theories, make threats and even plan violent rallies without worrying about getting banned."[53] IHateAccounts (talk) 23:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

but extended to lawful speech that was found objectionable as well Which is the source for this bit? GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Multiple company statements. They led with the "violent content" part, because that is illegal and popular speech to enforce - but each company explained that this wasn't the reason for the removal alone. The reason for the destruction of the business was the fact that the lawful content parler wanted to allow breached the terms of amazon, apple and google. “Content of this dangerous and harmful nature is not appropriate for the App Store. As you know from prior conversations with App Review, Apple requires apps with user generated content to effectively moderate to ensure objectionable, potentially harmful content is filtered out,” the iPhone maker wrote in its letter. “Content that threatens the well being of others or is intended to incite violence or other lawless acts has never been acceptable on the App Store.”TuffStuffMcG (talk) 00:14, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

"Content that threatens the well being of others OR". It is not illegal to threaten the well being of others. It is illegal to threaten them with unlawful violence or harassment, but that was never the issue. TuffStuffMcG (talk) 00:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)......did you bother to read your own quotation before you pasted it in here? "Content that threatens the well being of others or is intended to incite violence or other lawless acts has never been acceptable on the App Store."

Also, I think that you'll find that threatening the wellbeing of others (e.g. threatening physical harm) is in fact illegal. [54] IHateAccounts (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I did read the quote, and specifically mentioned in my supplement the "well being" part. Well being is not merely physical health, but could also mean happiness. It would be helpful if we had the requirements laid out to remain on the platform.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 01:05, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Seems more like you're desperately trying to WP:OR some defense of Parler here, when the statements by Google, Amazon and Apple, and the WP:RS coverage, are 100% clear. IHateAccounts (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

the above story about them refusing to moderate unlawful threats of violence and being deleted from the internet as a result isn't true, or supported by the sources. It goes beyond that. I think wiki editors have been doing a good job, but the Amazon legal rationalization obfuscates the core issue that led to their deletion off of the other platform a bit.TuffStuffMcG (talk) 02:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

We would never report that Parler demonstrated unwillingness and inability to remove from the servers of Amazon Web Services content that threatens the public safety, such as by inciting and planning the rape, torture, and assassination of named public officials and private citizens. that would violate our basic principles. However, we would and should report that Amazon said that Parler demonstrated unwillingness and inability to remove from the servers of Amazon Web Services content that threatens the public safety, such as by inciting and planning the rape, torture, and assassination of named public officials and private citizens. Not reporting the reliably sourced reasons Amazon gave would violate our basic principles. If there are any reliable secondary sources that say that Amazon was wrong and that Parler actually did demonstrate unwillingness and ability etc. We should report that as well. Do you know of any reliable source that said that? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

That's fair. Reliably soured information that presents a balanced reasoning for why the site was deleted is all we can ask for. I'm sure that you'd include statements from Parler attorneys as wellTuffStuffMcG (talk) 03:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Only if those statements from Parler attorneys have significant coverage in reliable sources. Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies Applies. The Amazon statement is covered in USA Today, CNN, NPR, The Seattle Times, CBS News, Newsweek, The Register, NY Post, Lexington Chronicle... Even Variety[55] and Vanity fair[56] covered it. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Since the statements and letters from Amazon are contentious and part of their public relations (such as providing them to the press), it is more accurate to treat this not just as Amazon saying that Parler failed to remove material, but that it is according to Amazon (ie, a claim, not necessarily a fact) that the material threatens safety, incites rape and torture, etc. Amazon neither published the material nor explained how it would incite and endanger and there is no indication how broad their policy is. 73.89.25.252 (talk) 06:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly observable that conservative outlets like Fox News are furious over this situation. Fox is mostly TV though. I don't know if their web outlets have anything we can cite. Don't forget that the other side has its own conflicts of interest, e.g. the WaPo is owned by Jeff Bezos. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 11:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Lets wait for the courts to decide which sides arguments are correct.Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Parler Users Breached Deep Inside U.S. Capitol Building, GPS Data Shows

"At least several users of the far-right social network Parler appear to be among the horde of rioters that managed to penetrate deep inside the U.S. Capitol building and into areas normally restricted to the public, according to GPS metadata linked to videos posted to the platform the day of the insurrection in Washington." Source: Gizmodo --Guy Macon (talk) 04:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

That is not surprising and not an indication of anything about Parler other than it attracts Trump supporters, particularly the stronger or further right ones less simpatico with Twitter. Statistically you'd expect more than "at least several" of the people who entered the Capitol to have a Parler or Gab account, and they did not seem shy about taking their phones along.

It is however incredibly damning as to Parler's lack of security that this data (and much more) could be scraped. That article does not emphasize it, but their recent security breaches are game over, business ending stuff even if they solve their hosting problems. 73.89.25.252 (talk) 06:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Revenue model

• [57] Will Parler go public? (Lol)
• [58] How parler app plans to make money (no ads, but some kind of underpants gnome plan to sell access to social media influencers on the site. I don't quite understand this.)

There is already a little bit about this topic in the article but (like the above) it's all quite vague, so I'd support adding anything that is available. I haven't seen any revenue model for Parler yet that makes actual sense, so it comes across either as a vanity project or a deep pocket propaganda outlet, depending on your cynicism. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 05:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I was just reading that too. In their AWS suit, they say that they rely on ad revenue as part of their request for the injunction to get back online. I've never seen an ad on Parler on 6 months, beyond a boosted post here and there. I think the real impact is to new investments to Parler. They were likely covering costs with investment dollars due to their rapid growth without ads. It also feels like a potempkin village with how quickly they went down after the election, their lack of a backup plan, and rapid scrape of all user data for enforcement purposes. ALSO at the very end of the article, it quotes Matze that, upon return algorithms will be expanded to automatically review more speech suspected of violence. As long as this stays away from vague and terms like "harm" and "well being", it should still be on-brand for Parler.

https://gizmodo.com/parlers-suit-trying-to-force-amazon-to-host-it-again-do-1846063580 TuffStuffMcG (talk) 11:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Parler shared info with FBI about Capitol riot suspect

• [59] I suppose the info was already available in the 70TB data dump... 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)