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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AndyTheGrump (talk | contribs) at 11:03, 15 June 2024 (rv spam). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 09:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Andrew Tate in 2023
Andrew Tate in 2023

Improved to Good Article status by CommunityNotesContributor (talk). Self-nominated at 16:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Andrew Tate; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Thanks for your input. I've striked out ALT2, given it focuses on the negative. The other two hooks, specifically the first, I'd consider as neutral as they come. The coverage in the article is overwhelming negative due to RS, not due to contributors, with a lot of consideration for using NPOV language and attribution as per BLP policy, as well as including everything positive about Tate, or in defense of him. I'd argue this type of article would come under one of the goals of DYK: highlight the variety of information on Wikipedia, thereby providing an insight into the range of material that Wikipedia covers. If we are not including controversial topics, then we are not achieving this diversity. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 17:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do feature negative hooks about certain things (Site isolation had a semi-negative hook, despite having a overwhelmingly positive reception). I'm not insinuating that NPOV was compromised when building the article eithier (in fact the article great considering how freaking controversial the subject is). I'm just unsure if running a negative article about a BLP is the best idea. In any case, I'll defer to a actual reviewer. Sohom (talk) 20:06, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, appreciate the feedback. Just to clarify, we're not still talking about negative hooks are we? The hooks are currently neutral, if not positive. If the argument is along the lines of if Jimmy Savile were promoted to GA, and then nominated as a DYK, and that would be an issue, than I have no complaints. Simple as. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, that's my argument. The hooks look good from a neutrality POV (imo). Sohom (talk) 21:19, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CommunityNotesContributor: I could do with you if I ever decide to GA Tate's Big Brother housemate Marco Pierre White Jr and try him on again here. I would just like to bring your attention to the bit of WP:DYKHOOK that says "Hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons should be avoided", emphasis mine. I see no reason why a rightfully negative article should not be promoted with a negative hook; we should not be providing WP:FALSEBALANCE. Out of interest, is there a reason you don't mention his appearance on Ultimate Traveller?--Launchballer 10:29, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CommunityNotesContributor: Please respond to the above. Z1720 (talk) 02:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because there doesn't appear to be a reliable source with coverage, all I could find was one line from Independent (via Yahoo) documenting this [4]. The show itself doesn't appear to be notable, based on the lack of Wikipedia page, though this minor detail could be added to BB section for example. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a shame. I saw that the non-RS Rolling Stone mentioned that he flounced out of it with an eye infection, and wondered if there was a hook in it. Full review needed.--Launchballer 13:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article passed a GA review and was nominated in the proper time frame. Hooks are neutral. Both hooks are verified to the cited sources and are of usable length. Article is in compliance with all wiki policies as one would expect from a GA article. There was some discussion on the DYK talk page in the transgender topic thread about the use of the image being not desirable. Based on those comments, I would say that we should pass on this pic given the distaste expressed by several editors who regularly contribute at DYK for featuring this particular article in the most prominent spot. I personally prefer Alt 1, but I leave it up to the promoter on which of the two hooks they prefer to promote. This one is ready to go.4meter4 (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok let's go with ATL1 then with no image. Do you have a link to the discussion elsewhere? I didn't see it, as there are no issues raised with the picture on this template. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a very brief subthread of Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Do we have to keep doing this?; lucid Launchballer says this could swallow a wider hearing. Pinging Viriditas.--Launchballer 11:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for sharing. I don't think we should be making decisions on DYK templates based on obscured opinions made elsewhere, that sets a dangerous precedent and lacks transparency. The comment "although ALT1 takes him down a couple of pegs, so I'd be very happy for that to run" does raise an important point of NPOV in these hooks, and therefore I change my option to ATL0. Otherwise waiting for objection to use of picture that remains non-existent on this talk page. On a side note, it's a shame that there appears to be a "fear" of raising awareness over what I would broadly consider a "toxic influence" to young males. Notably the UK education system thought turning a blind eye to Tate's influence was also the solution,[5] but along with Australia,[6] have done a complete u-turn,[7] realising that ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, and instead worsened the problem.[8]. Lessons could be learnt here... CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 14:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That conversation was enough to make me uncomfortable in endorsing the pic. I stick by what I said. Alt1 is a perfectly good hook, and the original one is also fine. Either one could be promoted. I find the Alt1 hook better simply because it's more eye catching in my opinion and would make me want to read the article more so than the other hook. To me its more hooky for lack of a better word.4meter4 (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, no issues with either hook being chosen, take your pick. The argument for it being a better hook I support, especially since it also links to Greta which is another GA, but not because it's considered a convenient POV. I think there needs to be a broader discussion over raising issues with DKY nominations outside of their templates though, either here or on the main talk page, as the implications over precedents being set and transparency remain concerning. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 14:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should have pinged, my apologies. (Side note, shouldn't it be 'December 2022' response?)--Launchballer 14:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK thanks, let's leave it at that then, since this isn't being defended. I think "that one of the most-liked tweets of all time was ... in December 2022?" otherwise remains accurate, as this is the date when it became one of the most-liked tweets. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 15:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:DYKHOOKBLP ALT1 does not work, it is about a tweet from a third party and it is very depreciating and body shaming. We should not feature a "someone tweeted something embarrassing about someone else's penis" hook. Bruxton (talk) 14:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the slang the kids use might be confusing you... The tweet was about their energy, not their penis (although there are humorous implication no penis is required to have big dick energy or small dick energy) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bruxton: see this article in The Independent[9]: "But don’t be fooled into thinking you actually need to have a large penis to have BDE - you don’t need to have one at all." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, that was probably for the best. There's inherently an issue with DYKs when a negative hook can't be used for an article that's about an inherently negative person, even when NPOV is being respected. For example let's never raise awareness about Hitler or the holocaust because it's negative, let's focus on DKYs about rainbows and puppies instead. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 11:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT3: ...that social media influencer Andrew Tate described himself as "absolutely a misogynist"?

for ALT3. Valereee (talk) 23:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • After WP:DYK discussion this seems like the best alternative - 2 weeks have passed since discussion. Recent GA, no plagiarism. The hook is interesting and cited in the article. The article appears to be fairly stable and uses the correct inline citations. It is likely as neutral as it can be. No QPQ is required. Bruxton (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This should probably be added to T:TDYKA.--Launchballer 06:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Stance section is incorrect

Andrew tate converted to islam source Omer ALFARHAN (talk) 07:30, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See FAQ #3. "Stance" in the infobox does not refer to religious stance. 〜 Askarion ✉ 13:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2024

The lede says, Tate “[promotes] a masculine, luxurious lifestyle.” The precise words the cited BBC article uses are “hyper-masculine, ultra-luxurious lifestyle” (emphasis mine). Those quantifiers are important, simply calling Tate “masculine” and “luxurious” is downplaying his attitudes; I think the article should be edited to say he promotes “a macho, hedonistic lifestyle”, or something to that effect.        —Showerlemon (talk) 11:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: Wikipedia articles must be written in a neutral point of view, and your suggestions take the phrasing further away from being neutral. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:02, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TechnoSquirrel69: Downplaying the phrasing found in reliable sources is not what neutrality is about. The BBC did not simply call Tate “masculine” but ‘masculine’ to an extreme extent. I can’t think of a better word for that than macho.        —Showerlemon (talk) 06:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You might have a point here. "hyper-masucline" could well be translated into macho, based on my understanding of the term. At least based on the short description "Pride in exaggerated masculinity". If there is a reliable source to identify his pride in his hyper-masculinity, it could well be amended. "hyper-masculine, ultra-luxurious lifestyle" could otherwise replace the current description, but it would require inconvenient attribution (at least for the lead). Ideally there would be more sources than just the BBC to make these sorts of claims, or otherwise an RS for macho for example. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On searching for RS, there are enough descriptions of "macho" in there worth considering:
 Question: Is it worth making a change for accuracy sake? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, using masculine as an adjective for Tate's extreme beliefs about masculinity and machismo is not only letting him get off the hook for the latter by using a much less harsh word, but also smearing masculinity—which isn’t a negative descriptor by itself—by conflating it with machismo and male chauvinism.       —Showerlemon (talk) 10:27, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Have changed "promoting a masculine, luxurious lifestyle" to "promoting a hyper-macho view of masculinity". This comes from the references in BBC article "...drawn to his hyper-macho image" [10] and the statesman "...ultra-macho view of masculinity" [11]. Upon searching for the "ultra-luxurious" and "hyper-masculine" descriptions of him, it appears to be more of less solely from the BBC article referenced in body, rather than a widespread description of him, so have not included either in the lead as doesn't appear WP:DUE per MOS:LEADREL. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TechnoSquirrel69 and CommunityNotesContributor: Masculine aside, I suggested replacing ‘luxurious’ with ‘hedonism’ because luxurious by itself sounds like an awkward adjective to use for a person. BBC, of course, didn’the simply call him “luxurious” but suggested he promotes excess and opulence—hedonism seemed alright to me. Though, arguably, it has more of negative slant than ‘ultra-luxurious’ entailed (the opposite case of masculine–macho).
Maybe we can use “opulent” instead? It feels awkward to use just “luxurious” as an adjective for a person.        —Showerlemon (talk) 10:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done The only reason "masculine" was changed to "macho" was because there are reliable sources for such contentious labels. We can't translate ultra-luxurious to hedonist or opulent without a lot of WP:OR. Please otherwise find reliable sources that describe his as such for content to be added to the body. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misogynist quote

@AndyTheGrump: I don't see this quote as a unambiguous misuse of a quotation, and a violation of core Wikipedia policies. It's a quote he made presented in context, and it's a quote that aligns with the perception of reliable sources of him, and that is frequently repeated by reliable sources.

It's both relevant and WP:DUE, in my opinion. BilledMammal (talk) 21:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have given a perfectly adequate explanation as to why the use of the quote is improper. He made a later statement where he described the "absolutely a misogynist" comment as made when "playing a comedic character" and "taken out of context". That, regardless of what we, or anyone else, thinks of the validity of his later defence, is entirely sufficient to make the use of the quote invalid. It is being used in a manner that can only be described as disinformational, for effect. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Surely we should stick to what RS describe him as, not our own interpretation or opinion on the matter? Including any direct response to that statement if there is any, of which is not referenced in the body. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For context, the quote comes from a podcast in 2021 (per Views and influence section); "You can't slander me because I will state right now that I am absolutely sexist and I'm absolutely a misogynist, and I have fuck you money and you can't take that away." ref, and doesn't appear out of context. Hence it's been regurgitated dozens of times by reliable sources, and therefore does appear due.
Re this revert comment "this seems to be quoting Tate for a self-description he later states he doesn't consider valid." The key word is seems; in that article Tate doesn't specify which "old videos" he was referring to, so no point in speculating it's the interview in question ref, as he's said plenty of controversial things in videos (see views section). I've never found him retracting that statement in any written RS. Maybe in the BBC interview he does which could be used as a source for "which Tate has since retracted", but otherwise, he made that statement in 2021 which is reliably referenced and should be used as such. I'm otherwise not going to waste my time watching that BBC interview again, someone else can though and use cite AV media. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 21:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, the summary of that painful interview [12]; denies rape, human trafficking and exploiting women; denies spreading misogynistic rape culture; preaches hard work, describes himself as a force for good, etc. Notably: "Mr Tate suggested that some of his comments had been taken out of context or intended as "jokes", but nothing about identifying as a misogynist. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 21:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether we think Tate's denial of misogyny (and worse) is in any way valid. We can't quote him as self-describing himself that way, after his 'role-playing' response. And why the heck is it so utterly essential to use a quote that is clearly questionable in that manner anyway? The article is jam-packed full of quite sufficient impeccably-sourced content for any reasonable person to come to their own opinion as to whether Tate is a misogynist or not. Why is it so necessary to resort to context-free phrases? Do we really think that readers need to be spoon-fed in such a manner, lest they mistake the article for some sort of defence of Tate's behaviour? What exactly is the purpose of the quote? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources continue to describe him as a self-proclaimed misogynist, even after the interview. BilledMammal (talk) 22:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be frank with you, I don't think it's essential at all. I even removed it from the lead previously because I considered it an over-inflated statement from RS — tabloid style as you would put it. It was reinstated as others felt it was due based on MOS:LEADREL — which is also true. The context should however be pretty clear; concern that he promotes misogynist views to his audience followed by the fact that he identifies as a misogynist. The context being, he has absorbed the accusation that has been thrown at him and self-identified as such. Someone identifying as misogynist carries a lot more weight of relevance (context wise) than accusations that someone is spreading misogyny, CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an off hand comment here; yes, some users need to be spoon-fed. Not everyone can put 2 and 2 together and get 4. In fact, it's terrifying how much the average person doesn't understand basic things. We're not here to cater solely to the reasonable and rational, we're here to cater to human beings of all kinds, especially the less intelligent, as an openly accessible encyclopedia. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that's the point. We are attempting to 'carry more weight' by quoting the man himself, despite his statement that it was 'role-playing'. Why exactly is that perceived as even remotely necessary? Why are we cherry-picking single words from sources in an attempt to bolster up something that absolutely does not require such tabloid-style tactics? It is core Wikipedia policy that quotes should only be used in a manner that summarises what the source has to say on a subject. Not a pithy phrase or two, extracted for effect and later described by the same individual as 'out of context'. As for your comments regarding spoon-feeding, maybe we need to consider whether WP:CIVIL needs to be extended to descriptions of Wikipedia readers... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your source that it was "role-playing", or that it's out of context? He never said he was role-playing in that interview, per the source you provided, only "old videos of me". This is an assumption at this point with no RS to back it up, despite my attempts to help you find one. As for cherry-picking, have you searched for "self described misogynist andrew tate" and seen how many RS describe him as such? It's not a phrase or two, it's usually a title or an opening description in the first sentence. Sure, let's expand civility though, why not. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To add to what CNC said, even if this was one of the statements he was referring to, retractions aren't always honest - to determine whether we should respect the retraction we should follow reliable sources, and in this case reliable sources continue to use the statement. BilledMammal (talk) 23:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Going to go ahead and provide some sources for "self described/proclaimed misogynist" if this is a sourcing issue:
Naturally only taking one ref per different source, so there are plenty more not referenced. Would this better as a cite bundle of a dozen sources, similar to the other cite bundles? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think half a dozen refs should do here, don't need all of them clearly. Can now see why this was previously in the MOS:OPEN prior to being moved to second paragraph. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misinformation

Andrew tate didnt rape or coerce any women to have sex. Your bias is showing. You're violating wikipedias Neutral policy. 2600:100F:B1B6:B5DD:0:36:DCD2:E401 (talk) 02:59, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't say Tate raped or coerced women into sex, it states he's accused of such, and he denies the allegations. Based on the criminal investigations, this is factual and accurate. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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