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August 21

Indonesian names

now at the language desk here[1] Julia Rossi (talk) 03:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Personal Finance

I'm looking for some good personal finance software and I'm a little lost as to what's out there. I've found Quicken but I'm not sure if that's any good. Thanks for any help you can give me. (Oh, and my computer's running Vista.) --Deltacom1515 (talk) 04:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_accounting_software) may be of use. I don't use any of them so no idea which are good/bad but should be a good place to start for now. ny156uk (talk) 09:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

A problem at the Internet Archive...

I go to the Internet Archive to use the "Wayback Machine"; a web site engine where I can go to previous versions of any site. But there's one problem: in the previous versions of sites that have Flash movies or animations, the Flash movies or animations don't work. I have Adobe Flash Player 9 and the Flash movies/animations don't work in the previous versions, but it works in the current versions of sites. What is this problem and how can I fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirdrink13309622 (talk • contribs) 07:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably taken off the site server/cache. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 10:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that the IA guys don't want their server brought to it's knees by people streaming video off their site. There might also be some issue with them getting in trouble for continuing to serve up video content that the original site took down for copyright reasons. SteveBaker (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

disgraceful video

I saw something on YouTube. It something to do with this so-called LumiTaint. The video involved Randolph Mantooth. I know I'd never diss anyone who's a celebrity with that type of thing, being that I was a child of the 1970s. I feel the video is a disgrace. What in the world did someone possibly hope to gain with all of that?72.229.139.13 (talk) 08:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

With respect, what in the world did you possibly hope to gain by asking this question? You haven't identified the video, you haven't said why you think it's a disgrace, and even if you had done those things, we can't answer the question anyway because nobody knows another person's inner motives for doing whatever it is they do. The Wikipedia Reference desk is not the place for such questions. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This is probably the video in question. The obvious answer to the question is that someone thought it was funny, and frankly, that's a really obvious answer. I mean, maybe it makes you laugh, maybe it doesn't, but it shouldn't be very hard to figure out what someone hoped to gain with that: giggles. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Confession time: I giggled. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 12:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

It was kinda funny - but they dragged it out far too long. A 10 second clip would have been funnier. A celebrity might do such a thing to promote their ability to do sketch comedy in order to get a job at (say) Saturday Night Live. SteveBaker (talk) 12:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Confession time: I only watched 45 seconds or so of it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - actually, I have to confess that I clicked ahead in about 30 second chunks - I don't think I missed much. SteveBaker (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Butt But of course WP has an article! -hydnjo talk 21:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Countries with eagle emblems

Hello, for my curiosity (mainly to get more experience drawing) I'd like to know some countries that have/had eagle emblems, and what they look like. So far I've got the US' Great Seal, the Reichsadler and the Albanian twin-headed eagle. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 10:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Have a look down through the article Eagle (heraldry). Quite a few examples in there, past and present. Fribbler (talk) 10:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Ad rem, is there any list of national animals of countries? Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 11:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

List of national animals. A lot of countries seeem to have more than one, surprisingly. Fribbler (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou, again! One final question, what did the USSR (I heard it was a bear) and imperial Japan have? Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 11:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The Siberian tiger was the Soviet national animal (Russia now uses the Bear). Japan has never had an official national animal as far as I can tell, so it's hard to track down the de facto animal of Imperial Japan. Fribbler (talk) 12:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thankyou...once again. I will have to look into that myself.

Resolved

Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Speed Glue in Table Tennis

What is the "speed glue" that they are banning from Olmypic competition actually composed of? Is it basically just rubber cement? 71.113.11.240 (talk) 11:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

According to this, it also contains certain solvents (see 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraph in the "Background" section for details). The ITTF banned speed glues that contain some of these solvents. Speed glue doesn't explicitly state all of this information. Perhaps you can use that article to expand it? :) But that link is quite old and I can't seem to find the specific solvent(s) being banned now. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Universal Protectionism

What is Universal Protectionism? 71.113.11.240 (talk) 11:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the religion from Toy Story?: link Fribbler (talk) 12:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Or you may just mean economic protectionism taken to the extremes of isolation. Fribbler (talk) 12:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure there wasn't enough context for me to determine which meaning the author intended. However, the author did capitalize Universal Protectionism. Is the economic version of universal protectionism generally capitalized? 71.113.11.240 (talk) 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Not usually, no. Surely there must be some clue from the context as to whether it is an economic doctrine or an invented religion? Fribbler (talk) 14:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Michigan GED legalities

In Michigan, is getting a GED legally the same as a high school diploma and graduating? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.136.15.186 (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice. However, on a non-legalistic note, you should be aware that, I've heard, GED holders sometimes face employment discrimination. --Random832 (contribs) 19:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Bearing out what Random832 says above, I once taught English in Michigan to adults who were earning a high school diploma, a program the district offered for people who did not want to have "just" a GED. — OtherDave (talk) 21:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If you're asking about the "strictly legal" standing of the GED, there's this search[2]. To illustrate, in Australia someone with a GED equivalent qualifies to take up an apprenticeship for example. Searching for preference for GED-ers gives this[3] and searching for employers preferring college graduates here[4] shows some support for Random832 and OtherDave's comment. Happy sifting, Julia Rossi (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

1005

At the end of WWII the NAzis tried to hide what they had done by destroying the crematoria at Auschwitz, and other such things such as operation 1005. What I wish to know is are there or were there any death camps that were never discovered? eg documentaion concerning Camp X was found but the acctual location never was? What are the chances that such camps existed? do we have and article related to this of any sort, or any other relavant info would be a great help Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Question moved to Humanities WP:RD/H.78.144.168.48 (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

plane crash stats

Are there more plane crashes now than there were prior to 9/11. is there a list of how often they occured prior and post. if there is an increase, or not, is it related to Alquaida? (Spelling, but who cares right) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Here are statistics for scheduled service on U.S. carriers. I do not believe any plane crash since 9/11 has been linked to terrorism. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that Al Queda existed before 9/11. That was not their first attack. The Al Queda article includes a list of attacks attributed to them, included pre-9/11 attacks. APL (talk) 13:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

A graph on this page shows no great increase in commercial airline fatalities after 2001. In fact it shows that there were considerably more fatalities before 2001 at some points.

Now whether there has been any real chance since 2001 would require far more subtle analysis. There are all sorts of possibilities. For example, airline security has been changed dramatically since 2001 around the world. Could this have lowered security-based crashes? Additionally, after 9/11 some groups historically associated with airline terrorism lowered their profile considerably in order to avoid getting swept in with the activity against al Qaeda. Could that have affected things? Additionally, airline travel, at least in the US, has been doing pretty poorly since 2001 for a number of reasons (security is one aspect, but rising gas prices is another, etc.). Lowering the total number of planes and people in the air will definitely have a statistical affect. So anyway, my point is that you'd have to be very careful with your data and your causality no matter what the case. It's an extremely complicated constellation of questions—there are a million variables and you are asking about relatively rare and particular events also, so the sample size is low. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

While the airline industry has been suffering since 2001, passenger demand has recovered pretty well. Here are some numbers. Passenger counts and passenger ton miles have exceeded their 2000 levels since 2004, and are now 15–20% higher than in 2000. -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The entire point of being a terrorist is to induce terror. If you make a plane crash and do it in such a subtle manner that it looks just exactly like it was mechanical failure/pilot error and carefully don't take credit for it - then you really aren't provoking much terror are you? SteveBaker (talk) 18:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be immensely difficult and require massive infiltration of airline maintenance facilities to make an act of terror look like an accident. It's really, really hard. Wealthy countries have very well-funded air accident investigation societies; poor countries ask for help from wealthy countries (usually Canada for some reason - I suppose they put a lot of money into air investigation during and after SR111 - but sometimes the US or the UK). I suppose middling countries like Nigeria or Indonesia - wealthy enough to have their own investigations branch, but not rich enough to have a top one - could be fooled, but those countries have such a high number of actual accidents that any terrorist attack would be irrelevant. --NellieBly (talk) 07:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling, but who cares right — Language is all that separates us from the animals. It facilitates the conveyance of ideas: the cornerstone underpinning everything that our society holds dear. Communication is king, and it is built upon language. Language, in turn, it built upon spelling. When spelling fails it harms the language, and without language we cannot hope to communicate. Without communication we are doomed to wallow in catatonic ignorance for the rest of eternity. So to answer your question, I care. The group is called Al-Qaeda. Plasticup ^T/C 01:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Strange that you should show such certitude, when the very article you link to gives three alternate spellings. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

None of which is Alquaida. But hey, that's why I provided a helpful link. Plasticup ^T/C 12:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Boris Kipriyanovich

I hope you could have read about a boy, Boris Kipriyanovich (Russia).

Anyone can confirm whether this is true?

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/12257_Martian.html

http://ww.shout.net/~bigred/Boriska.html

http://www.projectcamelot.org/boriska.html

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=boriska+russia

--V4vijayakumar (talk) 14:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

See theosophy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

A precocious child tells a good story. The end.

So what - kids tell detailed stories from their imaginations all the time. This poor kid has been inflicted with so much publicity that even though he's grown out of it, he's now pressured into expanding on it even though he probably lost interest in it years ago. The "Project Camelot" link pretty much backs this up:

"Later, during the interview, Boriska exhibited all the signs of a young boy becoming a teenager, reluctant to express more than was absolutely necessary... waving away the details as things he spoke about in his youth, now his mind was on other things. This life had taken a firm hold and no more did his eyes shine with the memories of his past life on Mars or even Lemuria."

The whole "Indigo child" phenomena is full of new-age pseudo-scientific bullshit. ALL parents see their children as something special - they'll believe almost anything that backs that up...My kid has a purple aura...yeah - right.

Nothing to see here - move along. SteveBaker (talk) 18:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi V4vijayakumar, you might find Reincarnation interesting -- out there, but rather earthbound by comparison. As a marketing angle that stops at nothing to attribute eccentric behaviour in children to higher things, "indigo children" has been superceded by other spurious categories such as "crystal children" etc. Re ET's and ESP, there are always reports and claims floating around but no scientifically legitimated proofs. See also parapsychology and paranormal for background. Not only Russians have a history of playing with this stuff, so does the US. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I am in earth, using all amazing gadgets and other stuffs. If I go to Mars then I can not build all these from nothing. This doesn't mean that I am not from earth. Still, it should be possible to ask simple questions to this kid, to get something useful for mankind, or prove he is telling stories. --V4vijayakumar (talk) 08:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Using Higher SPF Sunscreen

When trying to protect the skin from the various UV rays of the Sun, are there any disadvantages, aside from potential cost, to using, for example, an SPF 60 sunscreen over an SPF 30 sunscreen? For example, will an SPF 30 sunscreen last longer than an SPF 60 sunscreen from the same company, etc... Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 18:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Well any SPF over 50 is just marketing—after 50 there is no advantage to getting more. See Sunscreen#Sun_protection_factor. I'm fairly sure SPF is totally independent of how long a sunscreen will last. If I understand correct SPF is just a measurement of how the exact chemical cocktail in the sunscreen scatters the harmful rays. Two sunscreens could have SPF 50 and have totally different compositions. How long any given sunscreen will last will depend on a lot of factors specific to the ingredients of that given sunscreen. In other words, SPF doesn't measure anything other than what it measures, if that makes sense. There are other variables too. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, higher factor sunscreens can be harder and less pleasant to apply. Lower factors are absorbed easier. It depends greatly on specifically which sunscreen you are using, of course. --Tango (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Consider this: The SPF is a measure of how much more time it gives you in the sun before burning. If you could normally be out in the sun without any sunscreen at all for 6 minutes without burning - then an SPF 10 will give you protection for 6x10=60 minutes and SPF 60 protects you for 6x60=360 minutes - or 6 hours. But most people can stand the sun for at least 10 minutes. So an SPF 60 will theoretically protect you for 10 hours! But the sun isn't up high enough for 10 hours unless you live somewhere north of Alaska - so anything much above SPF 40 or so might as well say "All Day" unless you have super-sensitive skin. What's more, there aren't any sunscreens (that I'm aware of) that will actually last for anything like 10 hours without having to be reapplied. So once you get much above SPF 50 or so, the additional screening effect is unimportant. SteveBaker (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the SPF is a measure of how much more time it gives in a laboratory, under laboratory conditions, when applied in a thick, controlled way without being rubbed in. SPF was never meant to be a consumer thing, it was a quantifiable way of knowing whether one sunscreen was better than another and by how much. The SPF is fairly meaningless when applied to how people actually use the sunscreen, except for telling you whether it is 'useless', 'light', 'medium' or 'heavy'. Hint: Less than 15 is useless the way real people actual use them in real conditions. Some of us are quite capable of burning in an hour with factor 30 on certain days, so it's all relative :) 217.42.157.143 (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Senator McCain under attack

Just got word on FOX News, other news orgs that someone has sent threatening messages and a white powder to Senator McCain's Campaign offices. Its on the news RIGHT NOW. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.240.146.233 (talk) 22:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This is the Wikipedia reference desk. Do you have a question? Algebraist 22:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I did. I was going to put this on the John McCain article, but it is protected. So far, two letters of a threatening nature have been found, as well as a white powder, which is suspected of being Anthrax or some other bio-agent. Can someone place this in that article? 205.240.146.233 (talk) 23:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm on a cable/Satellite system, and it has all manner of news outlets, incl. FOX News, CNN. 205.240.146.233 (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I see you've already found Talk:John McCain. That's the place for this discussion, not here. You may want to create an account so that in future you'll be able to do this sort of thing yourself. Algebraist 23:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Found two links (See Talk:Senator John McCain), but one does not work on here, that one is the Aljazeera link. Google "Senator John McCain's Campaign Offices Attacked","Someone Attacks John McCain's Campaign Offices". Done that, found those links. Can someone handle this? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.240.146.233 (talk) 01:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to repeat: this is not the place for this. Talk:John McCain is the place for this. Algebraist 01:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And just to note, it turned out there wasn't white powder, that it wasn't dangerous, etc. Which highlights the reason why we don't put TV news into articles the second it happens. If it's something notable it'll be notable four hours later. But TV news, esp. Fox News, is notoriously bad about getting its facts straight on the first go. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Generally they have no facts on the first go, just like newspaper and radio reporters, it's just that TV news people don't mind covering the event in the absence of facts, unlike newspaper and radio reporters. --Sean 16:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And, of course, there is no deadline! Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It's worth underlining that this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA. (Think long rows of dusty old books!) We can afford to sit back for a week, two weeks - a month even - before we have to write something about this and we'll still be a year or two ahead of Encyclopedia Britannica! We have a sister project "Wikinews" that is set up to handle exactly this kind of thing. So by all means discuss it on the McCain Talk: page - but try to take the long view - this may be a storm in a teacup - it may end up being so non-notable that it won't be in the encyclopedia AT ALL - or it might be a major part of the McCain story that's right up there at the top of the article. We simply don't know yet. If you have an urgent story to tell - Wikinews is definitely your first port of call. SteveBaker (talk) 20:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

August 22

Low migration requirements

After the question on migrating to Canada, is there a list of countries that have low, lower, lowest migration requirements? Julia Rossi (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

While it would be nice to have an article outlining different countries' immigration policies (we don't seem to have one at present), it's going to be a lot more complicated than a low-to-high scale. To give a simple example, my country allows totally free immigration to EU citizens, but legal immigration from elsewhere can be extremely difficult. Algebraist 00:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

My country is going to be on the super-duper hard end of the list. Tourists aren't allowed to stay for more than three weeks, non-citizen residents can be deported for playing music (an activity for which a citizen could potentially be paid), and other than a child-bearing marriage there is no possibility of naturalization. Plasticup ^T/C 01:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, is there anything in particular to stop someone emigrating to the “easiest” to get into EU country, THEN emigrating to Brittan? :) I’ve always wondered how that worked. --S.dedalus (talk) 01:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes: you have to somehow convince this EU country to give you citizenship. I believe this is tricky no matter who you choose. Algebraist 01:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

As Algebraist says, you would need citizenship. That's quite a lot harder to get than just permanent residency and would take several years at least. Once you had done that, though, then yes, you could probably move to the UK (there might be a clause that says naturalised EU citizens don't count, but I don't know of one). --Tango (talk) 02:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

One common way is for Eastern Europeans from countries not in the EU(Russia,Turkey etc)to get to somewhere like Bulgaria or Rumania.Once you're in there as a citizen,you are then free to migrate anywhere within the EU.One of the concerns over Turkey's EU application is the possibility of terrorists being easily able to get over the border from such places as Iran and Syria and then once within as EU citizens would pretty much be free to travel anywhere in the EU without any constraints. Lemon martini (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

May I ask where you've seen that raised as a concern? I've never heard it before. Algebraist 11:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The main places I've seen it raised are in papers such as the Daily Mail and the Express(although of course they tend to be concerned about anything arriving from anywhere across the water),but it has been prompted as a concern in some Government thinktank studies (I haven't got the names to hand) that one of the drawbacks of EU membership is the potential for terrorists to use it as an attractive gateway into Europe. I can see the logic- rather than attempting to get into Europe through the non-EU channels on say an Iranian or Iraqi passport which would be far more likely to create suspicion,simply make your way over to Turkey,get your hands on a Turkish passport and then just travel through the EU channels with all the other Europeans.The less chances of being stopped and asked to produce documents-especially ones that may throw up red flags,the easier... Lemon martini (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Xenophobia causes so much more unrest than these supposed Muslim terrorist-hordes. Plasticup ^T/C 01:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we can possibly answer this question since it depends on precisely who you are, what your qualifications are etc, even what you mean by migration. For example I know a bit about Australian and New Zealand skill migrant residency requirements. Both use points systems but have a number of differences and have different requirements. If a country has a large shortage of skilled worked in your particular field, then it's likely going to be easier to migrate there for you. But for a lot of other people, it might be harder. If you have sufficient money that you are willing to invest, you can often migrate in some fashion (not necessarily gainining citizenship) to many other countries but clearly the requirements are going to vary, from country to country with the poorer countries generally having lower requirements. Then there is stuff like the free flow of people between EU member states, or between Australia and New Zealand. P.S. Countries like Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, many parts of the Arab world accept unskilled workers (compared to much of the developed world thtat doesn't), but not long term and it can actually be quite hard to get citizenship of a number of these countries. Nil Einne (talk) 16:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama and assasination

Its my belief that when Obama becomes president(hopefully) that at some point someone will try to assasinate him. If they succeed, I think that there will be riots and chaos from the black community. I told my white friend that if Obama gets killed that he should be very careful about going outside and that I would come and get him.(I'm black) My friend says that I'm being ridiculous and that if Obama gets shot it will be like any president being shot and there wont be riots and such. What do you all think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.134.118 (talk) 01:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference desk is not a discussion forum for unanswerably subjective questions. — Lomn 02:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It's impossible to even speculate without more information. Who the killer was would be extremely significant, for a start. --Tango (talk) 02:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Charles Manson thought that the Beatles song 'Blackbird' was an incitement for him to stir up race riots. Were there riots and chaos when Martin Luther King got shot? What would have happened if JFK was shot by a black person? Bradley10 (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm disturbed by the fact that this character has told someone that if Obama gets killed,'you should be very careful about going outside' and that if Obama gets killed,'I will come and get you'.If someone was making threats like that to me,I'd rather remove them from my friends list sooner rather than later...Lemon martini (talk) 11:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I really think he meant "I will come and get you [to safety]", the implication being that his friend would be safer with a black friend than by himself. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope that's what was meant.Whoever becomes President,there is always going to be some nut out there who wants to try and do away with them-we cannot speculate on something that will(hopefully) never happen. Lemon martini (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer Bradley10's question, yes, there were riots in many cities after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. Of course, 1968 was 40 years ago, and riots might not occur if a President Obama were assassinated. If they were to occur, they would likely be confined to certain urban districts, as they were in 1968. Marco polo (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think when/if it happens, it will be done by a non-WASP. At least, that's how it will be covered up. --Endlessdan 17:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd look for something more recent than the MLK incident. The Los Angeles riots of 1992 didn't happen after the Rodney King incident - but rather after the aquittal of the people who were accused in the incident. Those were perhaps more indicative of what our OP is envisaging. I had a long chat with a (white) lawyer in LA just a few months after the events of 1992. He said that driving around the city as a white lawyer (eek!) in a gold BMW made him feel exceedingly vulnerable - even months later when he drove me to the airport - he explained how he carefully picked his route to avoid troublespots. If I was a white guy caught up in that kind of thing - I'd surely hope I had some black friends who'd help me get out of it. However, the OP really does need to be careful not to make this sound like bragging or some kind of a threat! True friends know that they'll help each other out in a bind - it doesn't need to be made so explicit. SteveBaker (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Any president is in danger of assassination. There have probably been crazy people plotting to assassinate every president we have ever had. That’s what the United States Secret Service is there for, and they do their job quit well indeed. In my mind the idea that there would be riots after the assignation of a president simply because of his or her skin color in this day and age is patently ridiculous. If Obama were to be assassinated, as President or not, there would be certainly be worldwide mourning. --S.dedalus (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree; the likelihood of an assassination attempt on a President-elect Obama is significant. I'm from the blond-haired, blue-eyed part of flyoverland -- e.g., none of my neighbors would think of this :-) -- but I'm certain that in other "relatively distant" parts of this here country, those who might still support Jefferson Davis's positions could easily be sitting around the bar, coon dawgs at their feet, trying to plan how to right this Great Wrong that's approaching; and if one or two of 'em get sufficiently likkered up, might just take it upon themselves to "fix whut needs fixin" next time he comes to town.

(Enough stereotype?) I think the scenario is not at all farfetched, and hope to heaven that those responsible for the President's safety are giving this some extra thought.

Would there be riots? Probably. Conversely, would there be cheering in some quarters? Also likely, albeit behind closed doors. Would somebody claim to "make my gran'pappy proud? Do NOT bet against it.

-- Danh, 70.59.119.73 (talk) 01:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

But you have wackos like that for every president. Whether it's skin color, Cuban affiliations, Catholicism, a homosexual relative, a vote against environmental legislation, or a vote for/against the Vietnam war, each president attracts his own brand of weirdos. Plasticup ^T/C 01:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama will not get the presidency and wouldn't have gotten this far towards it without massive white support, and I'm sure from what I've heard from blacks I know and from black media programs that the better part of them recognize this. I think that's why there weren't massive riots after the MLK assassination, because it was a similar story. King got whites on board and if you look at the march on Washington there's a lot of whites there and I've talked to blacks who point that out and say there probably would've been a police crackdown what they would've called a mob if the whites weren't there. Likewise, the Montgomery bus boycott wouldn'tve been successful without whites giving their black friends rides. The black population, for the most part, knows these things. I think it's disrespectful of their understanding of the situation and of the nature of their culture to think you gotta lock up and don't go anywhere if he goes down. -LambaJan (talk) 12:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That's true - but it's also naive. Trouble doesn't come from the majority - it comes from the minority. I'm sure the majority of the black community in LA were cowering in their homes with the doors locked just like the white people. But let me quote from our article on the LA Riots:

"At approximately 6:45 p.m., Reginald Denny, a white truck driver who stopped at a traffic light at the intersection of Florence and South Normandie Avenues, was dragged from his vehicle and severely beaten by a mob of local residents as news helicopters hovered above, recording every blow, including a concrete fragment connecting with Denny's temple and a cinder block thrown at his head as he lay unconscious in the street."

What had he done? Nothing. Would this have happened to him if he'd been black? I kinda doubt it. Were the people involved thinking rationally about justice for cops in the Rodney King beating? No...it was blind rage directed at the first white guy they could find.

The march on Washington was a controlled, calm event...those kinds of events can afford to be openly and carefully multiracial. The LA riots resulted in 53 deaths, 2,000 people injured, a billion dollars of property damage resulting from 3,600 fires, destroying 1,100 buildings. 10,000 people were arrested.

If an Obama assassination resulted in a calm march on Washington - then fine, if an injustice has been done, I'm there. But if it would result in rioting on the scale of the LA riots - not fine. Can we predict in advance which of those things it might be? No - we really can't. If the LA riots had happened before the march on Washington and the Montgomery bus boycott then we could maybe say that the world was settling down and becoming a calmer, saner place - but that's not true. Despite all of the gains the MLK years bought us, the LA riots still were the most brutal and widespread rioting seen anywhere in the civilised world for at least the previous 100 years.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You said it yourself, it was the acquittal that sparked the riots. I don't think an Obama assassination would spark riots, but perhaps a similar show of institutional injustice would. -LambaJan (talk) 04:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure the LA riots were the massive wide-scale attack on white folk they're made out to be. According to the article a total of 8 white people died. Which is 8 too many, obviously, but the city of LA has a population of 1.7 Million white people. The danger to white folk was a bit higher than normal, but still in the struck-by-lightning range. Obviously a white guy like me wouldn't have wanted to be around during those riots, but unless I'm missing something, it seems unnecessarily alarmist to start worrying about who your "black escort" is going to be. If you're really worried about increasing your chances of long term survival your mental energy could be better spent making your automobile safer, or eating healthier. That's boring, but statistically it'll have a much better pay-off.

By contrast 25 African-Americans, 16 Latinos were killed. And a whole lot of shop-keepers of all races had their shops vandalized. APL (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Reginald Denny (the innocent white truck driver who was pulled from his cab, beaten, robbed and left for dead) might have something to say about that. Read how he was beaten to within an inch of his life - and despite the whole thing being shown live on TV - the only thing that saved him was...well - I won't spoil the ending - why don't you read his article and then reconsider what you wrote about the benefits of having a "black escort".

Our article on the riot says: "Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted" - others suffered too - but nothing like to the same extent. The large numbers of African-American and Latino deaths was largely due to the gang war that broke out as a consequence of the lawlessness of those days.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I grant that I didn't allow for white folk assaulted but not killed. I couldn't find a number for it. It was an error not to mention it at least. But unless that number was significantly higher than the death rate it still remains a remote possibility even if the riot is a given. Unless you live an exceptionally safe life this should be low on your list of safety issues to be resolved. After the real risks like heart disease, automobile accidents, ordinary non-riot violence, natural disasters, you've still got to worry about lightning strikes, random wild animal attacks, etc.

I have read the Reginald Denny article. It is horrible and terrifying. But I try my best not to allow extraordinary and emotional tales affect my understanding of risks and statistics. In this age of TV news that's often hard to do, but I try.

I'm not saying that the Reginald Denny's assault wasn't horrible, and even avoidable, But is it cause for all 244 Million of us white folk to be paranoid? Will that kind of paranoia do more good than harm? Couldn't that energy be channeled towards survival techniques more likely to save lives? I'm surprised at your reaction given your nearly opposite posts in the question about airline crashes. APL (talk) 23:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

re: "that's why there weren't massive riots after the MLK assassination". There definitely were massive riots after MLK was assassinated — in Washington, Baltimore, Chicago, Louisville, and other cities that left dozens dead and countless homes and businesses burned and looted. 1968 was a very different time and I'm not saying the same thing would happen if Obama were killed but there is a precedent. —D. Monack ^talk 23:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Plane going down and survivors

Has there ever been an incident were a major airplane went down from the sky and there were survivors? I dont mean small planes or planes about to touch ground. I mean Jet planes high overhead and going down. Has there been one with survivors?

Yes. Japan Airlines Flight 123, for instance, suffered explosive decompression at over 13,000 feet, with 4 survivors, all of whom were seated in the rear of the aircraft. — Lomn 02:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty rare though. I believe there are no known cases of the exit ramps and seat cushions being used as floatation devices - I don't think anyone ever used the life-jackets. Lots of the safety junk they put on planes never gets used - it's an outrageous waste of jet fuel - and yet the one thing that really WOULD help (anti-smoke inhalation masks) are STILL not being provided even though they weigh next to nothing, cost less than a dollar each and would have saved hundreds of lives over the years. SteveBaker (talk) 02:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not rare AT ALL. It's more common for planes to "go down" - and by this I assume the OP means "have a serious emergency in mid-air" - and either semi-land or crash at low speed than it is for them to crash. The thing is, emergencies rarely get in the news when the pilot gets the aircraft on the ground safely and nobody dies. Maybe if it happens at a major North American airport with lots of TV crews around AND if the photos are interesting enough to show. Otherwise you never hear of it. I think it's called selection bias - we see more fatal accidents than non-fatal ones so we assume fatal ones are more common.

The difference between survival and death is often the rate of speed at which the aircraft crashes. No amount of safety equipment will save you if you're in a high-speed air crash, as the damage caused by deceleration (basically your heart being shoved forward in your chest and detaching from the aorta - not a pretty autopsy scene, as I've had the sad experience of learning) is enough to kill you alone. The old "if they spent that dollar things would be so much safer!" canard is just that. People vastly, vastly overestimate the amount of time they have to put on a mask, and anyway most smoke inhalation deaths happen because the person was knocked unconscious or severely injured in an unexpected crash and couldn't have opened up a mask anyway. A mask might extend your agonizing death by a few minutes, that's true, but you'll likely burn to death or die of your injuries before anyone can pull you out (unless you happen to be in the cockpit - it's somewhat easier to access the cockpit from the outside than the cabin).

The best way to spend money on airline safety is not on useless gimmicks but on crew training. A well-trained cabin crew can make the difference between life and death; had the Air France accident in Toronto taken place with an airline who chooses their cabin crew for looks and not for ability and who regards them as glorified servants, giving them courses on makeup and hair and not on safety (e.g. Singapore Airlines), it's likely half the passengers would have died. --NellieBly (talk) 07:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you read the question carefully enough. We aren't talking about the crashes (or "near crashes") when a plane is just taking off or landing. Indeed, in those cases the survival rate is good. We're talking about relatively high altitude events - and a crash from that height is almost always fatal to everyone aboard. My comment about smoke masks is more to do with the leading cause of PREVENTABLE death. When a plane falls apart and drops from 40,000 feet - there is nothing much (short of parachutes or something) that's gonna help. When a plane noses down from 500 feet right after takeoff - there isn't much more that can be done beyond seatbelts and good seat anchoring and crumpling. But when one aircraft taxies into another on takeoff - and there is an immediate cabin fire it's perfectly possible for someone to grab a smoke hood (they are like metallised plastic bags with a flat, square carbon-filter in the front), pull it over their head and get out. There have been countless occasions where that kind of thing would have bought people an extra minute or two to get out of a burning plane that's on the ground. Even if only 1% of people in 1% of accidents benefitted from them - they'd be a lot more use than the heavier and vastly more costly life jackets that have never - even once - saved a single life in an airline accident of any kind. SteveBaker (talk) 20:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been cases of the life jackets being used. See Water_landing#Survivial_Rates_of_Passenger_Plane_Water_Ditchings.

The WP articles don't seem to mention if the slides were used, but I'm pretty sure the fact that evacuation slides float is incidental. Inflatable slides were invented because they're easy to deploy quickly. According to the article, previous to inflatable slides, canvas ones were used. Those certainly wouldn't have floated. APL (talk) 05:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Contrary to what you might think from some movies, explosive decompression isn't actually all that dangerous except to the people unluckily near the point of failure, and except if it also causes damage to the plane's systems. In the case of the Japan Airlines crash, it did -- all four hydraulic systems became unusable. A different sort of explosive failure that similarly destroyed the hydraulics on a United Airlines flight in 1989 also led to a crash landing, but a majority of the passengers survived.

Explosive decompressions where most of all of the passengers survived have included ones in or near Hawaii in 1988 and and 1989, in England in 1990, and near the Philippines this year.

Flights where all the engines have stopped, for various reasons, and which were brought to a safe landing have included ones in Indonesia in 1982, in Canada in 1983, in Florida in 1983 (Eastern Air Lines Flight 855 on May 5, no Wikipedia article), and in the Canary Islands in 2001. In another such case the plane crashlanded in the water near the Comoros in 1996, and while a majority of passengers died, there were 50 survivors.

There has even been a case where a plane was destroyed by a bomb while flying at 33,000 feet and still one person survived!

--Anonymous, 10:40 UTC, August 22, 2008.

The Gimli Glider was a good example of a plane that came in from a high altitude and landed with no loss of life. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Every airplane that I've ever been on eventually came "down from the sky". Plasticup ^T/C 01:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The original question did address that point. --Anon, 18:32 UTC, August 23, 2008.

Claymore mine effect on APC

I was watching some YouTube footage of the recent fighting in Georgia and was wondering. Could a Claymore mine with tripwire damage a Russian-built armored personnel carrier, say a BMP-3? What about the BTR-60? My theory is that a claymore mine might act not unlike an IED and damage the treads of the vehicle or at least dent the vehicle in some way. But since the claymore is designed for antipersonnel use and not against armored vehicles, one could theoretically drive over a claymore and not know it. Am I correct in either or one assumption? --Blue387 (talk) 03:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

APC's can withstand anti-personnel mines very well. It is one of their functions. I'd imagine the blast would alert you to the fact you'd driven over one, but any damage would be incidental. Fribbler (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Additional info: Russia now uses the BTR-80 rather than the BTR-60, and from this site:

The vehicle remains totally intact, even if it hits an anti-personnel mine. If hit by an anti-tank mine, as proved in Afghanistan, it can keep moving as the blast energy normally damages only one of the eight wheels.

These are tough machines. Fribbler (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You also need to qualify whether it is a Russian domestic version, an export version or a licensed, locally made version. Most of the export versions are limited in some manner such as thinner armor, and the locally made versions are usually modified in some manner. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

M18A1 Claymore Antipersonnel Mine says that these things have "limited" use against soft-skinned vehicles. Implying that even something like a truck would be fairly safe against one of these things. The Claymore fires a bunch of 1/8th inch steel ball-bearings out in an arc at 1200 meters/second. That's a very lightweight "bullet" - our article compares it to a .22 cal rimfire bullet. So anything that's in the slightest bit bullet-proof will survive - and that will certainly include any APC - even the lightweight kind. So I think the answer is a very clear "No!". An IED has much more explosive - and it's concentrated right under the vehicle. The Claymore is optimised for jobs like killing a large number of unprotected or lightly protected infantry who are walking alone a path close to the device. It spreads 700 ball bearings out in this wide arc to try and catch as many people as possible - each with just a couple of fragments. It's pretty much the exact opposite of what you want for penetrating light armor. SteveBaker (talk) 20:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

(Oh - and you don't "drive over" a claymore - it sits on a little tripod or something with it's curved front face pointing in the general direction you think the enemy is cominf from. It's typically set off with a tripwire. SteveBaker (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I have a marriage and a civil partnership at the same time?

Let's say I'm married. And then I realise that I'm gay. And I want to get a civil partnership with my new partner. Do I have to divorce my wife first? I live in the UK. Bradley10 (talk) 09:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but we cannot give legal advice here. Go see a solicitor. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not after legal advice! It's a theory question - I was just wondering if the two were possible at the same time. Bradley10 (talk) 10:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty damn sure that one of the first things they would ask before granting a civil partnership is 'are you already legally married or in a civil partnership'.If you say yes,you'd probably be advised to choose one partner.You're usually restricted to one spouse at a time-although that does raise the point-I believe Muslims are allowed more than one wife simultaneously,so would they be permitted a wife and a civil partner simultaneously? Lemon martini (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Sharia law does not recognize civil partnerships, and UK law does not recognize sharia law, so this seems to be a non-issue. Algebraist 11:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah thanks-I didn't know what the situation was with sharia law and civil partnerships Lemon martini (talk) 15:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the situation with them is, the UK falls under UK law, not sharia law. In the UK, Muslims are allowed one spouse, the same as everyone else. --Tango (talk) 17:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Given that a civil partnership bestows upon both partners the same legal status as is enjoyed by married partners it seems clear to me that indulging in both statii simultaneously would subject the participating nutter to the laws of bigamy. Jeez, it's bad enough having one spouse at a time let alone 2. Quotation, "A feminine boy from Khartoum, took a masculine girl to his room; they spent the whole night in one hell of a fight - about who should do what - and to whom?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.7.225 (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In the UK you can't be married and have a civil partnership at the same time see Civil partnership in the United Kingdom#Eligibility Dmcq (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Quite aside from the legal issues - this is a matter of simple ethics - what you SHOULD do - not what you COULD do. SteveBaker (talk) 19:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

What is there in 'simple ethics' that precludes polyamory? Algebraist 15:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what SB was saying but in this case with the question as phrased I would say it is a simple matter of ethics... "then I realise that I'm gay. And I want to get a civil partnership with my new partner. Do I have to divorce my wife first". If you're gay, your obviously not interested in your wife as a life-partner (anymore?). The right thing to do here, is to tell your wife if you haven't already, and get a divorce as soon as possible, not marrying again until your divorce is finalised. If you were bisexual and you and your wife wanted to stay together or whatever then you might have a point but clearly that doesn't apply to the specific situation as phrased Nil Einne (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You're right, of course. The discussion had gone on long enough for me to forget the actual question. Algebraist 16:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. At the time of his marriage - this was a woman he respected and even loved. That he's changed sexual orientation is hardly her fault. One can only imagine how horrible this seems to her. She needs to be treated with respect and honesty. A swift "no fault" divorce would probably minimize the pain. It's irrelevant what the law says - it's the right thing to do. With the divorce done cleanly and fairly - do what you like from that point on. SteveBaker (talk) 19:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure that we have any brief to be imposing our personal ethics on others, or any right to be telling them what they should or should not do in these situations, or what the "right thing" for them is. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I can think of a half-dozen counter-examples in which maintaining the legal marriage would be the "right" thing to do. For instance if your sickly wife depended on your health insurance, or you had co-signed a mortgage, or you needed the tax breaks associated with co-filing your taxes, or you needed to maintain visitation rights at a hospital, or any of the myriad of benefits that society gives to loving heterosexual couples. Plasticup ^T/C 14:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually I'm pretty sure in the UK the benefits to civil partnerships are the same as to marriages - I'd hope so, anyway. We definately don't have health insurance. Bradley10 (talk) 09:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Some health insurance programs cover the holder and his/her spouse. Presumably in the UK this means the civil partner as well, I don't know. My point was just that there could be a good reason not to divorce your wife even if you didn't love her any longer. Plasticup ^T/C 13:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha. Wow! It was only a theory question. I'd never do anything like that to my wife. If I had one. And even if I legally could. Which I can't. Bradley10 (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Search engine alternatives..

Hello,

I own a restaurant, Tastings Orlando, and two warehouse companies(Mackin Commerce Center, College park Commerce Center) here in Orlando. Other than listing my businesses with Yahoo and Google, what do you suggest to advertise them to potential clients/customers?

Is there a way in Wikipedia to do so or at least be more visible?

Thank you,

Steven 68.205.104.47 (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC) P. S. what purpose does the 4 tildes, above, serve?

Regarding Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:FAQ/Business. The four tildes turn into your signature, time, and date. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't advertise. But we have articles that may help you: Internet marketing is one, and the articles it links to at the bottom of it. Fribbler (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

To put that more clearly: Wikipedia doesn't sell advertising space. We also VIGROUSLY defend against people who attempt to introduce advertising - even quite subtle attempts such as adding the URL of your company website in the "See Also" section of an article on the product you make or sell will be considered quite objectionable. If your company passes our rather strict notability criteria (See: WP:NOTE and especially WP:CORP) then it's possible that an article could be written about it - but we would be quite upset if people who work for the company were to attempt to edit the article or influence the way it would develop. That means that is easily possible that we would mention criticism of your organization in order to represent a neutral point of view. You wouldn't easily be able to get rid of that so you might want to be careful what you wish for!

For advertising in general, something like a restaurant needs to be advertised locally - there is no point in paying for advertising coverage all around the world for a restaurant with just one location in Orlando. That kind of local coverage is something the Internet is not so good at. Getting your restaurant listed on Google Maps - and with some genuine customer reviews (somehow, astroturfing never really works) - would probably be good for business.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing of Orlando but in Boston there are services that list local restaurants and their menus online. I have personally found this extremely helpful and it has occasionally encouraged me to try places I had not otherwise thought of trying.

I would also suggest making a nice website. It's not very expensive or time consuming, and if I were to hear about your place from a friend, I might run it through Google to see what it was about. I'd expect to see something that gave me an idea of the kind of place we were thinking of going to. For example, if I want to know about the Barking Crab, Google gets me a pretty little site that tells me about the restaurant, shows me the menu, tells me how to get there (but doesn't, oddly, mention that there are attractions nearby that might be of interest to people—it's right next to the Institute of Contemporary Art, and it's a great twofer on a Sunday afternoon). So, on this particular point, I would disagree with SteveBaker. There's no point in paying for advertising on the internet (like banner ads) because they aren't targeted enough, but having something nice for interested people to find could probably go a long way towards attracting some new business. People google all sorts of crazy things—they're probably Googling your business name right now! (I just did, anyway, just to see what came up—nothing much of interest, nothing to tell me what kind of place it is.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 06:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that you need a nice web site - you certainly do. But that's not ADVERTISING - that's INFORMATION. Without advertising, people who are not already customers won't come to your website either! If you search "Restaurant Orlando" in Google, you get 580,000 hits. One of which will be your website. Unless you have quite deep pockets, you won't get your restaurant to the top of that list because only the half dozen "richest" restaurants can afford to pay Google enough to do that. Once people know you exist, the website is useful in helping them making a decision - but they aren't going to open dozens and dozens of restaurant web sites and decide where to go by reading all of them. It's just not how people use the Internet. SteveBaker (talk) 15:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It's also a good idea to get your business listed on Google Maps so that the (rich) iPhone users can boast they found your restaurant using their mobile, even though you can do that for ages with Google Maps mobile on basically any mobile phone. --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Bank drive-through deposit tube

I am looking for an article about the special system which is installed in many US banks which makes it possible to deposit money through a special air pressure tube through the drive-through. can anyone help me find something in wikipedia about it? Acidburn24m (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Pneumatic tube might be what you're looking for. --LarryMac | Talk 19:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It does mention the system. As a sidenote for anyone who's curious, many people at my workplace use the phrase "I'll tube you a note" instead of "I'll email you" since we used to have a tube system for delivering messages. Dismas|^(talk) 19:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Those things were SO cool. Steampunk email! SteveBaker (talk) 19:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Ted Stevens was right, it is a series of tubes. --LarryMac | Talk 19:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In some ways, he was right. (Though of course it was for the wrong reasons—he was correct only in a "broken clock is right twice a day" sort of way.) We talk about high-bandwidth connections as fat pipes. We send squirts of data as packets that resemble (at least remotely) Dismas' pneumatic tubes system. While many people have a mental image of the Internet as a fault-tolerant routing-around-damage gossamer web enveloping the Earth, there are still many places in the world that are joined to the wider Internet through only a few 'pipes'. Undersea intercontinental high-bandwidth fibers are few in number, and susceptible to damage; they're more like vulnerable oil pipelines than multiply-redundant woven tapestry. (When just three cables were severed back in February, an entire country – Iran – lost its connection to the global Internet: [5].) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Iran didn't lose connectivity. I agree, though, the Internet is a series of tubes, and I never understood why people chose to mock him for that perfectly reasonable statement. If they're going to turn one of his comments into a catchphrase, why not "sending an internet" for "sending an email"? -- BenRG (talk) 11:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

A better example is probably 2006 Hengchun earthquake. The problem hereis that although there are a lot of 'tubes' they all go through the same earthquake prone area. While no country lost connectivity completely that I know of, this severely crippled telecommunications access to the affected countries. For example even normal toll calls to these countries were utterly shit, and these are the ones you pay big bucks for so you would expect the telcos to give them high priority. Of course "an internet" (i.e. e-mail) still wasn't too bad I believe since it's resonably low bandwidth, latency tolerant stuff. (I agree people chose the wrong things to mock him on, but his whole statement just sounds dumb and the tube bit does as well even if somewhat accurate) Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Faceless "aliens"

Did anyone ever find out who they were? --217.227.122.34 (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it was just viral marketing. [6] All the papers promoted it, so it worked. Except that you don't know who did it, so it didn't :) 217.42.157.143 (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It was viral marketing for the Lotus Evora. [7] Dostioffski (talk) 00:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

As the first link said, although the previous reply avoided further spreading their brand onto the desks. 79.66.45.71 (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

brigand groups of north arcot district in madras presidency /india

is there any gazette of madras presidency that can throw light on the the folklore of ``deevatti kollaikarans who seems to have been operating in the javadhu hills around jolarpet region in the 1900s? are there any other evidence of their existence.Trinitymoolam (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should ask that - I was just about to do so myself. Have you tried Yellow Pages? In the event that you have not, I will do so on your behalf and respond accordingly and in the fullness of time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.7.225 (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your GREAT IDEA!

It is a serious question.There are grandma's tales about such brigands,who sometimes eloped with maidens and later dropped back. If you are familiar with the geography of that area, you will know that it lies in the area which is contiguous from where the modern day brigand Veerappan operated. Seventy years ago when i was a child (YOU GUESS MY AGE NOW!),i had heard stories abut them.Some of them are supposed to be from forward castes,driven to brigandry because of poverty. Hence my querry.it is of social antropological interest.Trinitymoolam (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

OK Trinitymoolam - your question is very confusingly worded. You are assuming we know MUCH more about the history and geography of the region than is likely! We're good researchers - but most people here are from parts of the world where almost no history of the Indian subcontinent is taught! We can't do magic without some considerable background information.

Anyway - let's try to dissect this question so we can understand it:

• Neither "deevatti" nor "kollaikarans" are words that Google can find anywhere on the Internet - so it's kinda tough to discover much. Is there an alternative spelling of those words?
• I can find a few references to the Javadhu Hills, Vellore in Tamilnadu. Jolarpet is also in the Vellore District. North Arcot is in the Madras region.
• British colonists consolidated the Tamil territory in southern India into the Madras Presidency, which was integrated into British India.
• Veerappan was a notorious Tamil bandit in India. But he's a recent figure - born in the 1950's not in the 1900's.

Searching for Tamil brigands in Vellore, Javadhu and Jolarpet produces only references to Veerappan.

So I guess we're looking for Tamil brigands operating in the Vellore district of India in the 1900's.

I've spent quite a bit of time reading around this subject this morning - it's hard work when you don't know the background history!

1. Madras Presidency has some information that might lead you forward.
2. History_of_Tamil_Nadu#Independence_struggle seems to have some relevent information. It talks about the "Dravidian movement" - could that be what you mean by "Deevatti" ?
3. This British document talks about "Kanakarajan" who is a "a close associate" of people the British describe as anarchists and political suspects - and has friends who are "vagabonds"...all around 1910. Could "Kanakarajan" be "kollaikarans"?
4. That same website has a lot of documents from that era and that part of the world. I suggest reading the documents here: http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/research/show.php?set=doclife&id=contents

SteveBaker (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot SteveBaker.

The meaning of the words"Deevatti" and "kollaikkarans"--These are words of TAMIL one of the many languages of INDIA,spoken in the southern part of India. "Deevatti" could be translated TORCH for our purpose.It is actually a wooden stick rolled with oilrags and lit up while raiding villages. "kollaikkarans" translated literally means "robbers".It could also be referred to "bandits"/"thugs".--

The area we are looking at is the Vellore district formerly known as NorthArcot distict in presentday TAMILNADU which was part of the Madras presidency during the British rule.

Dravidian movement is different.The Tamils are from the Dravidian culture as juxtopposed to those from ARYAN culture livng in other parts of the country.Drvidian history dates back to PRE Christian era.::

I will go to aurobindo ashram web site as suggested by you and will get back. Once again thanks for the interest you have taken.:

The Gazettes of that period,either of MADRAS presidency or the district gazettes of ARCOT or NorthArcot could throw some light. I am not able to locate them in the web yet.~`Trinitymoolam (talk) 15:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The referred texts has been read.They pertain to the activities of

freedom fighters. "kanakarajan"is the name of a person.:The referred texts will help any researcher who wants to know about the freedom movement in French India.:

Pondicherry in the then French India is at least 400k.m. away from

the area we are talking about in the then British India.;

Why can't I live on my roof?

I ask here because my city council wont give me a straight answer. I feel that as long as I'm not hurting anyone, there is no reason why I can't live on top of my house. My roof is flat.

In the summer, they wont even let me crash on the front lawn, for Chrissakes! I keep it mowed, and I want to sleep there.

If you live in a warm climate, and arent being a nuisance,I see no reason why anyone cant live on thier roof in the winter, or thier yard in the summer. My life sucks and I want to be free! This is why I live in America. But "people can't just go around running extension cords into thier yards with lamps, chairs, and tvs" And forget about the parade in your own yard (thought I found a loophole) because "you cant just go around with 3 of your friends kicking your feet in the air in unison like chorus girls". You also cant just go around painting picures of yourself on your car door, or cover your house windows with $100 bills (I checked). You "can't just go around"" doing much of anything on your own property, can you?--Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

As we have said with earlier questions of similar note, most of what you raise is covered by city (municipal) ordinances, and will be specific to your place of residence. It is possible that, if we knew where you lived, someone might be able to chase down your local by-laws and point you to them. For interpretation, however, you would need to talk to your planning department or city council, and, if they cannot answer your questions, to a lawyer. If you merely want to rant about your perceived lack of freedom, may I suggest you find a forum more suited to your purpose? ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, didnt mean to come across that way. Thing is, its like this in every single town I've lived in! I was trying to seek an answer of a societal viewpoint. Why is it that all towns have it this way? What's the sociological, societal reason, etc.? Hopefully you guys can help.Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The idea is that your property needs to be "in keeping" with the surrounding area. Having one house looking different is often percieved as ugly. You probably have much more freedom about the back of your house, where other people are less likely to see it. --Tango (talk) 00:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you could have three friends over and do synchronized kicks, though I'm Just Not Curious Enough to call your bluff and ask you to quote an actual ordinance, rather than your belief about what an ordinance means. Covering your windows with $100 bills, a thing you are unlikely to do on this planet, would most likely be an attractive nuisance. I feel confident that you can't cite an ordinance that says you can't paint your own face (or, say, that of a troll) on your car door, though possibly your community (like mine) has restriction on where you can park commercial vehicles -- you know, the ones with business names painted on the side. Pickup trucks and vans with screamingly bad artwork abound; your face likely won't draw that much notice.

Painting your garage is something else; many suburban areas are covered by regulations from a condo board or homeowner's association. Such regulations are normally part of the package of documents you receive when buying a home in such an area (the package is required by law in Maryland and Virginia). You may Just Not Be Curious enough to have read yours. Having served seven years on a condo board, I know that many owners are shocked, shocked to discovered that the board could not only stop them from (as one owner wanted to do) building an exterior deck, but that the board legally could have it removed and bill them for the work.

What you seem unable or unwilling to understand is that "I feel" is not always the strongest argument for persuading others to agree with your acting in a contrary -- not to say tendentious -- manner. And, you know, you can do many of these things; you apparently don't want to live with the consequences. You don't need the permission of the reference desk, and there's no point in seeking its approval. — OtherDave (talk) 01:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't even know what country you are from. How are we supposed to give you a meaningful answer? Plasticup ^T/C 01:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Just curious, but how would the city council know you were living on your roof - do they use helicopters to gather evidence of such "law" breaking? Astronaut (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually the OP did say "This is why I live in America" Nil Einne (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you actually gotten in trouble for setting up an easy chair and lamp on your front yard? Or do you go to city council meetings to ask them whether or not random ridiculous things are permitted? APL (talk) 03:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer Astronaut, they found out about the roof incident from one of my neighbors. The one who walks her cat at 2am (Shouldnt there be an ordinance for that?). To answer APL-yes, I have brought to the forefront some of these one day could be important issues. I have been known to set up what I call "happyland" in my front yard . As I stated before, I want to be free! So a free person should have the right to do free things. As long as your not hurting anybody. If I want to name my office stapler spot and drag him by a leash down my street, there should be nothing legally stopping me. Sorry if it seems like I was soapboxing there, but I have strong feelings/lifestyles for this.Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 03:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty common around here to see people with a chair set up in their front yard and listening to the radio, I have a hard time believing that a TV would be much different, especially if the screen didn't face the traffic.

In any case, we can't give legal advice at all, but if you're looking for a life free from nosey neighbors who call the coppers at the slightest offense, have you considered moving to an area that's more rural? A slightly lower population density might do wonders for your front lawn dance parties. (Once you do move, I recommend not showing up at city council meetings to ask ridiculous questions, that's just about guaranteed to reduce your freedom to do silly things.) APL (talk) 04:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

As always, it's a matter between theoretical freedom and practical freedom.

• There might well be a law preventing you from defacing currency by sticking it on your window. Will anyone actually stop you from doing that? No. That's a theoretical restriction on your freedom that's not a problem in practice.

• There might not be an explicit law preventing you from sleeping in your front yard - but if doing so annoys your neigbours, they are going to call the cops - and they won't be happy that you're causing grief and they'll find an obscure law that'll stop you from behaving antisocially. That's a freedom that you theoretically have - but in practice, you don't.

Paying attention to merely theoretical problems like sticking money on your windows - while "pushing the limits" by trying to do bizarre things like sleeping on your front lawn is guaranteed to get people looking for laws to stop you. If they dislike you screwing with the look of the neighbourhood and they can't find a law to stop you sleeping on your lawn - then they'll look at the dollar bills stuck on your windows and say "Hey! Maybe we can get this bozo thrown in jail for doing that!". I have to say that if I was one of your neighbours - I'd be seriously considering doing that.

You can certainly get away with sleeping on your roof once in a while without anyone caring even if there is some obscure law that makes it illegal. You can have occasional parties on your front lawn without anyone being too bothered - so long as you aren't upsetting your neighbours on a daily basis (HINT: Invite your neighbours to your parties - even if they don't come, they'll be more tolerant). But if you make a damned nuisance of yourself by doing it continually - or dragging down the value of nearby properties by making an unholy mess of yours - then people will start looking for obscure laws that can be found to stop you from doing it. Between draconian housing association rules, vague laws like "Disturbing the peace", "Public nuisance", "Lewd behaviour", "Public drunkenness", noise level statutes - they'll get the police on their side and find SOMETHING to get you with. So be nice - consider your neighbours - they also have a right to live their lives the way they want.

I certainly recommend moving away from other people. Once you aren't disturbing other people - they aren't going to care what you do in the privacy of your own yard - and you can probably even break a few laws without anyone careing. Freedom doesn't mean "Freedom to make yourself a bloody pain in the neck and thereby impinge on the freedom of others"...and it seems to me that you are going out of your way to do exactly that.

Living in a SOCIETY isn't about pushing the limits of all of the laws - it's about being a nice person and seeking out ways to make the people around you happy.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with SB here. From your questions and responses so far, I'm not that surprised you're having so many problems with your neighbours. If you change your behaviour, you may find your neighbours are less inclined to report you when you violate minor ordinances. If you for whatever reason end up pissing them off all the time, they're much less likely to be so inclined Nil Einne (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, you may want to start reading up one electricity, water,shortcircuit, fire, electric shock and extension cord if you don't understand why no one wants you running an extension cord to a TV and lights in your garden Nil Einne (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

As a strong defender of individual freedom myself, I'd still have to say I understand a bit why people might be upset at you camping out on your roof or front lawn. To me, if you want to paint your house purple with green stripes, maybe add some tasteful nude frescoes, I'd tell your neighbors to get over it. But if you're out there at night, where everyone can see you and where you can see everyone else, if I were one of your neighbors, I'd be wondering why. Are you up to something, I'd be thinking? Waiting for everyone else to go to sleep so you can set whatever plan it is in motion? Or are you upset about something that's gone wrong in your life? Maybe wrong enough to make you act out without a plan, but with a machine gun? These don't have to be rational fears, at night: The point is that it is very difficult to get to sleep if anything is "out of whack" in your surroundings. And that, at a broader level, makes perfect sense, because for millions of years those who went tranquilly off to sleep while something was off-kilter -- or who gave their neighbors too much benefit of the doubt -- were presumably less likely to pass on their genes. --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that in an ideal world, it would be OK to paint your house purple with green stripes - AND I'd defend your legal right to do so. The problem is that this isn't only a matter of PERSONAL freedom. It affects your neighbours. A house is the most expensive thing you'll likely buy in all your life. Rightly or wrongly, a house that's next door to a purple/green one is worth less money (sometimes a LOT less) than one with more "normal" houses adjacent to it. So by painting your house like that - you're quite literally taking tens of thousands of dollars from all of your neighbours. That's not a matter where they are likely to simply shrug shoulders and say "Well, someone is exercising his freedom and twenty grand is the price I must pay." They are going to do absolutely everything in their power to stop that kind of thing from happening. Everyone who lives nearby are going to hate your guts and do their damnedest to make your life a total misery in the hope that you'll go away and someone will come and repaint the house a nice shade of boring beige. This is guaranteed to make your life miserable too.

In an ideal world, the value of my house shouldn't depend on the look of your house - but in an ideal world there would be no correlation between people who paint their houses with wild colors and people who are a damned nuisance in other ways. But that correlation definitely exists. The probability of my neighbour cranking the music up and keeping me awake half the night (another one of those "Personal freedom" things) is definitely correlated to the probability of him painting his house weird colors. The probability of him not bothering to eradicate fire-ant nests on his side of the fence is increased. The probability of him breaking into my house at dead of night to get money for drugs is higher. These correlations are CLEARLY not true for everyone - but I guarantee that those things are true statistically. Even if it ISN'T true - people who buy houses definitely believe it to be true - so they don't buy houses next door to purple and green houses unless they are amazingly cheap.

Humans have evolved as tribal animals - when we live in close proximity you have to obey unwritten tribal norms.

SteveBaker (talk) 23:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I used to live on my roof for a summer and no-one ever objected. Mind you, I didn't tell the council, and the neighbours couldn't see me. Bradley10 (talk) 09:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

August 23

Whats the difference

Whats the major difference between a rock guitarist and a jazz guitarist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArcoBass (talk • contribs) 00:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The type of music they play? This is a trick question, right? ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really. You can make do in rock with a small handful of chords, and they tend to be relatively simple; jazz, on the other hand, delights in things like Ebm7b5 and B7b9 which give lesser trained rock guitarist conniption fits. There are of course other differences in technique. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

conniption fits? Is that a fingering problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArcoBass (talk • contribs) 00:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You try playing a d-flat-demented-ninth chord when you're connipping all over the place. It's quite embarassing. (It's even harder on uke.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Bielle nailed it. The difference is really just the music they play. Some chords may be associated more with one genre than another, but a skilled jazz guitarist could probably get away with playing only a few simple chords, and a rock guitarist could implement more complex chords into rock music. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ya think? Jazz guitar has a pretty decent writeup of the discipline. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I (and possibly Bielle) was responding to the question as it was asked, rather than interpreting the question as "What's the major difference between a rock style of guitar and a jazz style of guitar?" — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 11:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

When you get to the craft of soloing there is a very significant difference in the approach. In jazz you look at the changes and you pick a scale to play over it, such as G over Am7 or F melodic minor over E7#5. Even when you have those chords in rock and happen to be playing them with similar voicings, you still generally opt for more of a bluesy pentatonic sound. This changes your entire mindset of how you approach soloing. That's why in jazz you learn scales in one octave in 8 different places but in rock you learn to extend the same scale all over the neck, and in jazz you learn little fills to play over a standard set of changes but in rock you learn fills just for ideas. I've tried using jazz techniques in my rock stuff and it didn't work for what I was going for. It just didn't sound grounded enough. I think it only works if you're going for some a Jeff Beck sort of a sound, which most rockers aren't. That said, learning scales (like the pentatonic ones) in one octave sections is still a good idea. -LambaJan (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The major diff is that the rock guitarist plays three chords to thousands of people, whereas the jazz guitarist..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrouNoir (talk • contribs) 18:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Why when you are doing something boring the time pass slower and why you are making something very cool the time appear to pass very fast??

Why when you are doing something boring (a perfect example school) the time appears to pass slower and why you are making something very cool the time appear to pass very fast?? Has someone made scientific studies on this??? There is a wikipedia article about this?? Has someone found a way to make this not happen??? 201.78.239.4 (talk) 01:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Not covering the subject in-depth, but Perception of duration might help. Astronaut (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

A similar question was asked on the science reference desk. This New Scientist article implies that a bored person pays more attention to time, while its passage seems almost irrelevant to a person with many tasks at hand. As for scientific research, there are many scientific papers on the methods human use to measure the passage of time as well as how perceived duration changes. The fact that New Scientist described the research means there's more than one dubious scientist working on the issue.

The article mentions altering the dopamine system using drugs to change one's general perception of time, but this method shouldn't change the effect you're interested in. --Bowlhover (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Folded steel

Proper katanas and some other types of sword are made of folded steel. That is, during the forging process, the pliable steel is literally folded lengthways, hammered flat, and folded again. The initial reason was to try to melt together the low quality bits of steel into a cohesive unit, but it has superior material properties that have made it popular to the present day. My question is simply: can you tell whether a sword has been made in this way just by examining the blade? Do you see the evidence of the folds or are they obliterated in the later stages of smithing? Matt Deres (talk) 02:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I think they fold the steel lots of times. If they made 20 folds - then there would be a million layers of steel. You're not going to see that. Even with 10 folds there would be a thousand layers. SteveBaker (talk) 03:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Damascus steel has a visible pattern and has something to do with folded steel. I don't know whether this applies to katanas. Just thought it worth mentioning. Pfly (talk) 04:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I've seen folded steel katanas and you can see a lot of lines running through it, but I'm not 100% convinced that it was a genuine folded steel katana (it was only about $300 USD, when most other places that sell them charge $700-$1000 for the cheapest). --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Folded steel redirects to Katana construction which only has "The finishing process brings out and enhances all details of a blade so that they are readily-visible for observation and analysis, which entails results that must be free of any visual imperfections." I'm not sure whether folds would count as an imperfection, or a detail. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 04:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The direct answer is that if you see the lines it's been folded, but if you don't see them it probably hasn't. The blade made from pattern welded steel (the generic term covering Damascus steel and similar processes) may be polished so as not to reveal the lines or it may be treated with agents such as nitric acid to reveal the lines. When folding steels for blade making, steels of different alloys are used, specifically differing nickel content, stacked alternately. The acid reacts with the nickel, turning the steel darker. Microscopic examination of the cutting edge might reveal evidence of layering. Generally a bladesmith going through the trouble of pattern welding blade stock would want to reveal the results of the labor required to repeatedly draw out (hammer to make thinner) and fold over the steel. In fact, quite complex patterns are obtained by different techniques of forging the layered steel.

Thehammer472 (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

2.5mm to 2.5mm cable

In which North American retail store can I find a 2.5mm to 2.5mm cable [[8]] that will allow me to connect a TI-83 with another TI-83 graphing calculator? I lost the one that came with the calculator and would prefer not to order one online. Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 02:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

They're difficult to find. It's important that they be stereo or three conductor cables. I can't even find them on TI's web site!

You've got a couple of options here. First, try calling TI (1-800-TI-CARES) they may know where you could buy one, or perhaps they still sell them. Another option is to go to Radio Shack (or similar) and pick up a 3.5mm cable [9] and two adapters[10]. Make sure you get "stereo", three conductor componants. That's a pretty expensive option as those adapters are not cheap. The cheapest option, would be to purchase the two plugs yourself [11], and solder your own cable. Obviously, this solution requires some soldering.

(If you don't know how to solder - or if you don't have a soldering iron - you could probably get away with twisting the wires together tightly and wrapping them with electrical tape. It might be a bit "fragile" - but it'll work.) SteveBaker (talk) 15:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hope this helps. APL (talk) 03:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure standard cables would work? They might not be straight. Check if they are crossover before you buy. F (talk) 05:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point. I hadn't actualy tried that option, but further research makes me think it might be a cross-over.

better answer : These people seem to have them in-stock. | CTI-Texas.com APL (talk) 06:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

According to http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ti_calc_cable_pinout.shtml the TI cable is not a crossover (i.e. each connector connects to the same position connector on the opposite plug.) I don't think stereo audio cables are crossover, but I'm not sure. --Random832 (contribs) 17:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Evil little monsters

I stepped outside a moment ago and noticed something strange: there was a swarm of ants in the lower threshold of our back door (not sure how to describe it... Y'know, the part where the door meets the ground and there's a little gap?) who were congregating around the buildup of leaves and dirt and what have you that had accumulated there over the years. It's not as though we hadn't cleaned the area before; it was just that it was one of those stubborn spots where lots of stuff gets piled up in a tiny space, and it's hard to notice, let alone fix (it blends in). Ants annoy me as is, but there were also tons of what seemed to be ants with wings. I know that's not really out of the ordinary, but the sheer number of them was unbelievable... Normally I see one for every twenty normal ants, but there had to have been a 50/50 ratio of the little monsters. Not having access to ant traps or the means to get any within the next few hours, and being the red-blooded American that I am, I decided to bleach them. Obviously I was careful in doing this (I'm not that stupid)... Afterwords I blasted the whole thing with the hose to remove and dilute the bleach and so I could get rid of all the crap that was stuck in the little cranny where the ants seemed to be hiding. Looking over the havoc that I had recked, I noticed a little red-ish thing that looked almost like a pill capsule. I picked it up and cracked it open (it broke open almost identically to how a pill would), and inside was what seemed to be a cream-colored larva... I've seen ant eggs before, but this didn't look quite right. And what in God's name is with the shell, dare I ask?

Anyway... I've no idea what it was and am pretty well stumped. Am I dealing with some sort of alien species here, or just something that has to do with ants that I'm unaware of? We are, of course, going to put up ant traps tomorrow and possibly talk to the bug people if it's not ants and if it persists, but I find myself morbidly curious as to what I found. Any ideas? --(Flying Ninja Monkey) ^(Banana!) 03:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Our article Ant discusses the flying ant thing pretty well. Start there! SteveBaker (talk) 03:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

See the Ant article. Do you have any pixes of these things? Where I'm at, there are the Fire ants and Harvester ants. BOTH of these will literally eat you alive. 205.240.146.233 (talk) 03:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Spider, other symbols in $ bill

File:United States one dollar bill, obverse,upper right.JPG

Did you know that the USA Dollar Bill has a spider in it? It also has other symbols, such as symbols claiming Masonic origins and even New World Order Symbols. There is similar symbols on the $5, $10, even on the $20 and the $50, $100 as well. The spider on the $1 is located near the 1 on the left side of that, on the $1's upper right corner. 205.240.146.233 (talk) 03:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you have a question? APL (talk) 04:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

the question is "did you know" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.139.77 (talk) 04:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did know. Thank you. ៛ Bielle (talk) 04:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

United States one-dollar bill mentions this, but says it may be an owl. Personally, it looks like just a bit of the general linework. Pfly (talk) 04:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree - it looks just like the loop of sinusoidal squiggles below and to the right of it. It looks more like an octopus than anything else. SteveBaker (talk) 18:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, guys and gals, I think it's pretty damn obvious who that is peaking at us from his eternal slumber behind the One. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You're missing the symbolism there. That would be "...his eternal slumber behind the One". This goes deeper than I thought. Look at the very bottom edge of the design on the front of the uni-buck - halfway between the "1" and the text in the middle on each side...zoom in...more...yeah Cthylla peeking out from her lair...forever waiting to rebirth the sleeping god at need. I think we've uncovered a secret government plot to promote Lovecraftian worship. Quick - write an article! SteveBaker (talk) 20:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought we had a rule against starting threads just for discussion (did you know... is not a question). --Random832 (contribs) 17:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you know that Wikipedia has an article on pareidolia? (And I agree with 98.217—the 'spider' does look more like Cthulhu.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Travelling heads of state

When heads of state/government go on a visit to a foreign country, do they pass through the usual immigration controls and have to show a passport, declare the purpose of their visit, say how long they intend to stay, and so on? Astronaut (talk) 03:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I think they have to go through immigration controls, but probably not the usual ones - there will be a VIP section for such people. --Tango (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Heathrow deals with all visiting heads of states at the Royal Suite, as shown on the tv show Airport. The suite has it's own stand so that the incoming planes can make their way directly to the suite for the red carpet, band and handshakes. Once landed, various flunkeys emerge with the correct documents and deal with Customs officers on the ground. Generally, as a visit is rarely a surprise, all of the paperwork has been dealt with before the plane took off from it's point of origin and the receiving customs officers only need to give a cursory glance to check that everyone is accounted for. Nanonic (talk) 11:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That's true in the UK - but I'm sure the standards vary WIDELY around the world. SteveBaker (talk) 14:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. What country wouldn't lay on VIP treatment for a visiting head of state? Kind of defeats the point of a state visit. Security concerns alone would make it impossible for a head of state to queue up with everyone else. --Tango (talk) 17:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Boxing

i don't know that how do the boxer get points in boxing. can anyone help me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.240.151 (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Try here (Professional_boxing#Scoring) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-point_must_system). Hope it helps ny156uk (talk) 09:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

If the OP was referring to amateur boxing, the type of boxing in the Olympics, the scoring system is different from pro. You get a point for every punch that lands the white part of the glove on the front of your opponent's head or torso. You can also get points if the referee warns your opponent for breaking the rules and the judges agree. Please note also that this current Olympic-boxing scoring style is under much scrutiny for not accurately measuring the success of a boxer in a fight.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding energy and stamina.

Hello Wikipedia editors and contributors,

I would like you to answer a simple question regarding energy and stamina, if that is possible. Are there any reliable methods and/or techniques to significantly increase them? If so, could you please tell me what they are? I would sincerely and greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks in advance,

― Ann _{( user | talk )} 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Good diet, exercise and rest. When your body is used to exerting extra effort for exercise on a regular basis (assuming you're healthy enough to exercise), then just getting through the day is not such a big deal. When you're well rested and filled up, that helps too. Caffeine is ok as long as you don't rely on it and sugar is ok as long as you don't have enough to get a buzz. If none of that works then see a physician because you might have some kind of blood sugar/thyroid/disease or some other kind of health issue to deal with. -LambaJan (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Physical exercise links to Aerobic exercise. From Caffeine - "Because caffeine is primarily an antagonist of the central nervous system's receptors for the neurotransmitter adenosine, the bodies of individuals who regularly consume caffeine adapt to the continual presence of the drug by substantially increasing the number of adenosine receptors in the central nervous system. This increase in the number of the adenosine receptors makes the body much more sensitive to adenosine, with two primary consequences. First, the stimulatory effects of caffeine are substantially reduced, a phenomenon known as a tolerance adaptation. Second, because these adaptive responses to caffeine make individuals much more sensitive to adenosine, a reduction in caffeine intake will effectively increase the normal physiological effects of adenosine, resulting in unwelcome withdrawal symptoms in tolerant users." - At the risk of going OR, caffeine can be likened to sprinting - you go faster for a little bit, but in the long run, you end up behind. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 04:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

pregnacy

when a women is on her period can she be pregnant79.68.40.177 (talk) 11:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Be pregnant or get pregnant? A woman can appear to have her period even when she is pregnant, as it's not uncommon for there to be a little bleeding in early pregnancy. And yes, there are a number of calendar-based methods of birth control, famed throughout the world as wonderful solutions for getting someone unexpectedly pregnant and then feeling really, really stupid afterwards. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It must be added that haemorrhaging (bleeding) in early pregnancy MAY be a sign for a serious complication. As WP must not give any medical advice, I strongly suggest the person in question to seek the advice of a physician / gynaecologist. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's assuming that this is about an actual person rather than a generic question, though. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 02:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I've heard vastly unsubstantiated rumours that it occasionally occurs that a woman continues ovulating during pregnancy, but that it is uncommon. Citation needed. Steewi (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

See superfetation and superfecundation. --Sean 00:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

WIRE TRANSFER BANK TO BANK

Hi People, When a wire transfer is made from a bank,does the RECEIVING bank know where the transfer originated from?? I understand that the sending bank can request the bank name that the wire transfer is made to,and to what account number,but I was just wondering if the RECIEVING bank knew where it came from?or does it just turn up in the persons account unknown of origin. Thanks, Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.9.46 (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I have only ever received one transfer and it came with lots of identification, though mostly in the form of numbers that only another bank could read. Given the world's general state of paranoia, it is difficult to transfer funds anonymously. In Canada, if one uses small-denomination postal orders (under $50.00, I think) that are paid in cash, neither sender nor reeiver has to be identified to the post office, but that is not a bank-to-bank transfer. ៛ Bielle (talk) 15:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You didn't specify what country you're referring to. And do you mean a domestic wire transfer or international? I suspect in the vast majority of cases, the receiving bank will know which bank it came from and have a reference for the transaction which they could use to follow up with the sending bank even if they don't know the person's name or account number. BTW, here in NZ fastcheques (basically a wiretransfer done online) between ASB Bank accounts show the sender's name. It's been a long while if I've ever received one from another bank so I'm not sure if it's the same if it's from a different bank nor do I know if it's the same if sent to a different bank. P.S. I asked someone who'd received an international money transfer, and he says it shows the name as well Nil Einne (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Having translated some documentation about anti-money laundering procedures and related matters for an international bank, I speak with a degree of factual knowledge when I say that while it may not be required for a bank to know where a money transfer originates, from a purely technological point of view, most banks definitely make it their business to know. I mean, big banks are going to want to know where your money is coming from if you have a lot of it -- you can't just show up with a million bucks in cash and deposit it, they're going to want to know how you came by it, and you're going to have to provide paperwork for it. It's not that they care all that much, but organizations like the FATF do, and no bank wants to be on the receiving end of sanctions from them. Indeed -- and now we're getting back to wire transfers -- the FATF has issued forty recommendations on how to combat money laundering, as well as another nine since 9/11, and it's recommendation number seven of this latter set that addresses wire transfers specifically:

VII. Wire Transfers

"Countries should take measures to require financial institutions, including money remitters, to include accurate and meaningful originator information (name, address and account number) on funds transfers and related messages that are sent, and the information should remain with the transfer or related message through the payment chain.

"Countries should take measures to ensure that financial institutions, including money remitters, conduct enhanced scrutiny of and monitor for suspicious activity funds transfers which do not contain complete originator information (name, address and account number)."

It's not impossible for a bank to receive a wire transfer without knowing where it's coming from, or for it to simply shrug and go about its other business when it happens, but these days it's very unlikely, because that way lies inconvenient extra work, possible sanctions and bad public perception, and any one of those things is something banks really want to avoid. In fact, just doing perfectly legal and diligent business with another bank that consistently demonstrates negligence (never mind criminal behavior) in matters like this can get a financial institution in trouble PR-wise -- there were a couple of real-world examples of this in the material I translated, but what with my brain being what it is, I've long forgotten the details. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Snakes

Is a Water Moccasin and a Cottonmouth the same thing or are they two different types of snakes ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.12.6 (talk) 20:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

According to our article Agkistrodon piscivorus, they're the same thing. Algebraist 20:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Very aggressive little beasts, too, IMHO. Edison2 (talk) 23:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Mario Kart Wii

When on the track is there a way to avoid the flying blue spiked shell from hitting you and exploding? 69.210.123.28 (talk)Bowser —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the answer - but (as the ref.desks' tame video game programmer) I'd say that it's very unusual indeed for game designers to put you into a situation you can't escape from - so there is almost certainly a way to do it. Either that information is in the little booklet that came with the game - or (more likely) the game designers decided that the process of figuring that out is a part of the skill of game...in which case it would be wrong of us to tell you! Good players will figure it out and do better as a result. I'd recommend trying different things. Is there some other collectable that'll protect you? Maybe swerving violently as it comes towards you? Speeding up? Slowing down? Hitting a "zipper"? Doing two of those things at once? Finding that out is part of the game. SteveBaker (talk) 21:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Google, you can avoid a blue shell by not being in the lead when it's fired, by having just been hit by something else and thus immune, or by just plain dodging (this is tricky). Algebraist 21:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You'd probably be interested to know that you can dodge a POW block by jerking the controller (which I didn't figure out until well into the game), but the whole point of the blue spiked shell is to be unavoidable. Just like the lightning bolt—you can't avoid it. Now, there is the rare exception that you are invincible (by using a star) when the blue spiked shell hits you, but you can't get a star if you're first.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? WikiHow claims that you can dodge it. Algebraist 21:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You would have to be very, very lucky to dodge it. If I remember, the spiky shell has a 99.99% chance of hitting first place. bibliomaniac15 00:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It is very difficult, as it (and a great deal of other attacks) seemed designed to moderate the deviation from the middle of the race. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

what percent of suv owners are republican?

--24.188.247.12 (talk) 21:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you're going to get an answer. They don't ask you for your voter's card when you buy a car, and I can't imagine any way to gather a reliable statistic on this.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 21:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are these things called "polls". The one listed here doesn't sort by political party, but rather by self-labeled liberal vs. conservative, and the correlation is going the other way -- 15% of conservative men own SUVs, vs 7% of liberal men (19 and 5 respectively for women). I'm sure with more research I could find a survey that matches political party to SUV ownership. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That read like a problem out of a probability course. I can use bayes theorem to find the answer here. p(_r_epublican|_s_uv owner) = p(s|r)*p(r)/p(s) = (p(s|r,_m_ale)*p(m)+p(s|r,_f_emale)*p(f))*p(r)/p(s) = (.15*.5+.19*.5)*.5/p(s) = .17*.5/p(s) = .085/p(s). lets say a quarter of the automobiles in my neighborhood are suvs then the probability of suv owners being republicans is 34%. wait sorry, that cant be right, im expecting something more than 50%. my maths is flawed. --24.188.247.12 (talk) 23:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Your answer's wrong because one of your inputs is false. Given the data we have, it can't be the case that 25% of people own an SUV (unless there's a massive non-conservative non-liberal SUV-owning faction). Maybe 25% of vehicles are SUVs, but that's not the point at issue. Algebraist 23:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok if i assume that the person driving the suv is either a republican or democrat I can use: p(s) = p(s|r)*p(r)+p(s|_d_emocrat)*p(d) = .17*.5+.06*.5 = .115. so the probability of being a republican given that he/she is driving an suv is .085/.115 = 74%. I think this is somewhere on the right track. but still polling data would be nice for this configuration. --24.188.247.12 (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

also I forgot to use liberal/conservative than democrat/republican in the above comments —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.247.12 (talk) 23:32, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Pedal Down; Stress to Car?

I've read in various magazines that the most fuel-efficient method of driving a car outfitted with a traditional manual transmission is the "Pedal-to-the-metal, short-shifting" technique, whereby the driver shifts as early as safely possible, but drives with the throttle fully open while on gear. My question is, does driving full-throttled increase the stress on the car in any way? If so, does the fuel saved by employing this method outweigh the increased stress on the car? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 21:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your premise.

The most fuel efficient technique is to be in the highest gear you can as soon as possible consistent with not "lugging" the engine and not pushing the RPM beyond the efficient range of the engine. Lugging is when you are running with an RPM that's too low...below maybe 1500 rpm (depending on the car). But "pedal to the metal"?! Hell no! Accelerate as gently as possible and as soon as your car hits maybe 2000 to 2500 rpm (depending on the car) you shift - as smoothly as possible. You certainly don't run with the throttle wide open - that's crazy. Anytime you're running over maybe 3000 rpm - you're wasting gas.

Running the car at high RPM or very low RPM does harm to it. Running at high RPM burns gas faster than low RPM. Hence, keep the RPM as low as possible at all times...but not so low as to lug the engine.

SteveBaker (talk) 23:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Road & Track magazines claims that by driving full-throttle, the engine intake manifold is fully open and is at its peak efficiency. You would only put the "pedal to the metal" while accelerating, without reaching a high RPM. If the RPM's start to get to high, shift up and if you can't, then level off on the gas pedal. Like you said, it is always in one's best interest to keep the RPM's as low as possible to maximize fuel efficiency and this technique is indeed keeping the RPM's low by shifting. Perhaps another thing to point out if that this could only be used while accelerating, as again, like you stated, your RPM's will eventually get too high without any more gears to shift. Acceptable (talk) 23:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess it depends on your car - but if you literally stand on the gas in my MINI Cooper turbo, its RPM will rocket up above 2500 faster than you could shift! But the idea that the engine is at peak FUEL efficiency when the when the manifold is fully open doesn't make sense. If it was true why wouldn't you want it to be fully open that when driving at a steady speed? That would suggest that you should stay in a lower gear - and we KNOW that's not true.

If your car can't gain RPM's very quickly (ie you have a low-torque engine) then you might well need to floor the gas pedal just to keep it in the 2000-3000 rpm band and avoid lugging the engine in those lower gears - but other cars (like my super-torquey MINI engine) need to be driven very gingerly indeed if you want to keep it in that rev range. So the correct advice is "Keep it in the low RPM range" because that works for all cars - not "Floor it" which only works for very low-torque engines.

I haven't done it with my present car - but I did (on a bet) try this "accellerate slowly, shift early" technique super-carefully and super-scientifically for an entire tankful of gas in my last car (which was a Supercharged MINI Cooper) - my gas mileage was spectacular - on a mixed urban/freeway cycle, I got better gas consumption than the manufacturer claimed for freeway driving! It was also the most boring two weeks of my life (made a lot worse because it took so much longer than usual to empty the tank)!

SteveBaker (talk) 05:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with your later points, I would just like to point out that we probably do would want to be fully open while driving at a steady speed- but doing so would cause the RPM's (and therefore speed) to keep rising above the target speed. But if we were to keep it in a lower gear, the RPM's would be unnecessarily high and I'm assuming that the consequences of a higher RPM's outweigh the benefits of driving fully open when trying to save gas. Acceptable (talk) 05:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

But RPM and throttle position are not independent variables! Let's simplify this a bit. Forget about the throttle position for a moment - the throttle is just a fuel/air metering device - it doesn't have an "efficiency". Assuming your car is less than 20 years old, the car's electronics can figure out the exactly correct amount of fuel and air to deliver no matter what. So let's just think about what's going on inside the cylinder:

• The amount of fuel the engine needs every minute is the amount that has to be combusted to produce enough gasses to push the piston from the top of the cylinder to the bottom multiplied by the number of cylinders multiplied the number of revolutions that each piston makes per minute...right?

• When you are accellerating, you need to get the piston from the top to the bottom in less time - and the way you do that is to use a little more fuel - that makes more gas - which makes for a higher pressure - which applies a greater force to the top of the piston - which accellerates the piston down the cylinder a bit faster - which makes the RPM climb and the car go faster.

• Even at constant speed: If the load on the engine is higher, it's harder to push the piston downwards - more force requires a higher pressure which requires more gasses which requires more fuel.

• To run the car at (say) 30mph and 2000rpm requires more down-force within the piston than driving at 30mph and 3000rpm.

The last two points are important. We have a dichotomy here: If you have to drive at a constant speed and constant RPM - but you have a choice of gears, should you pick the lower gear or the higher one? At first sight, it's not obvious:

1. If you opt for higher RPM the amount of down-force is less than at low rpm so you don't need so much fuel in each revolution of the engine.
2. But: The total amount of fuel you need is the amount of fuel per revolution MULTIPLIED by the number of revolutions so at higher RPM, you're multiplying by a bigger number.

The total energy delivered to the wheels is (naively) the amount of energy delivered per revolution of the engine multiplied by the number of revolutions per minute.

So from this naive viewpoint it's not obvious whether high or low RPM works best. Less fuel per revolution with more rpms or more fuel per revolution with less rpms? Well, the answer is lower RPM - and the reason is that frictional forces get worse at higher speeds so more of that energy is wasted.

Hence, for fuel economy, we want to be driving the car at the lowest RPM we possibly can. However, at some particular speed, the amount of force that has to be applied to the piston gets bigger at lower RPM. So at 30mph and 4000 rpm, the force you are applying to the piston (and the con rod and the bearings and the camshaft) is half what you are applying at 30mph and 2000 rpm. So in our efforts to save gas, we're driving at lower RPM and putting more stress on the engine. When the stress on the engine due to driving at very low RPM is more than it was designed to handle, you can damage it...certainly you'll wear out bearings and piston rings prematurely. This is called "lugging" - running the engine at lower RPM than it was designed to run.

So - what does this say about acceleration? If you accelerate rapidly, you must burn more gas than accelerating gently because more piston-force is needed. If you accelerate at high rpm then you need more gas than accelerating at low rpm because we have to remember that we have to multiply the amount of gas per revolution by the number of revolutions.

But (I suspect) the argument is that by accelerating hard to get to the shift point, you are burning more gas - but for a shorter period of time - so there would be no penalty to accelerating hard - but no benefit either (except of course that you get where you're going a little sooner). But that misses some practicalities. One is that human frailty being what it is, you won't be able to shift as accurately on the target rpm (this is more of a concern with a high performance car) - and the other is that in fact the engine is more complicated than I previously described. One thing is that the efficiency with which fuel is converted to gas pressure is worse under high loads - less CO2 is produced and more CO at higher pressures and temperatures and that's bad because the incomplete combustion of the CO is a waste of energy. Another is that by revving harder, you'll produce the same amount of extra heat energy - but in a shorter period of time. This overwhelms the cooling system and will result in engine temperatures rising - so the thermostat kicks in and you waste more energy circulating water, running the electric fan...you name it. All of these details mean that it's DOES matter whether you accelerate harder or more gently...and accelerating gently wins.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Silly Gererish english, ie Piglatin

I was recently at a party when a secret was told about how I can speak "Foo", (or fu?).

It was funny how this silly, invented language was turned into an academic conversation, and truthfully, I've never researched the background on this until now.

i suppose it could be compared to the likes of PigLatin. Yet in all of my years I have never known anyone who can explain the history behind this. I have my story how I came to learn this, & few of my own assumptions.

I'm unable to find anything related to this on the internet and thought maybe Wiki could look into this for me.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.121.31 (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of "Foo", could you describe it? Pig Latin is just a very simple code for English, is this "Foo" thing something like that, or is it an actual language? --Tango (talk) 00:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Me neither, and the article Language_game doesn't mention "foo" or "fu." Can you tell us more what this "foo" language is all about?--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that this is a meta for for a meta foo of liguistic morphology. --62.47.142.0 (talk) 20:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Foo is often used as a metasyntactic variable - generally as in "foo" and "bar" (which come from fubar). It's also a common joke-ish suffix for "expertise in" - so Wiki-foo would be Wikipedia expertise - this derives from "Kungfu". But unless our OP will give us a few grains of information - I also have no clue. SteveBaker (talk) 02:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe that its use as a metasyntactic variable and as a humorous implication of expertise have entirely separate etymologies. Expertise in wikipedia might be called be Wiki-fu (à la Kung-fu) and metawiki might be represented as Wikifoo (à la foobar). Plasticup ^T/C 19:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - they certainly have different etymologies - but a heck of lot of people don't know that. Both are "properly" spelled "Fu" rather than "Foo" - but I've seen both uses with both spellings. http://www.seattlewireless.net/WikiFoo uses 'Wikifoo' for example. Anyway - this is probably nothing to do with the OP's question - but since our OP seems to have gone quiet, we'll probably never know. SteveBaker (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Handball-like sport at the Olympics

I saw a brief clip of a team sport being played at the Olympics. It looked a lot like handball, but I don't think it can have been, because the ball was no bigger than a tennis ball. In handball, I believe the ball is about the same size as a volleyball. So what was this sport? Olympic sports#Current program is no help. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 23:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you may have been mistaken in what you saw, as Handball as you describe it is being played at the olympics and has been for over 50 years with volleyball sized balls. Nanonic (talk) 23:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I know that, and I know what I saw - this ball was the size of a tennis ball. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the ball used in what we Americans call handball is a good bit smaller than a tennis ball. But it's a one-on-one sport, not a team sport -- like racquetball without the rackets. --Trovatore (talk) 06:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

If they had sticks, you may have been watching field hockey. Rmhermen (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Handball is played with a ball roughly the size of a size 3 football (19cm dia.). A volleyball is at the upper limit of a size 4 football (21cm dia.). -LambaJan (talk) 04:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

To help: An image that shows the size of a handball in play. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you had a look at Olympic_sports#Discontinued_sports and Olympic_sports#Demonstration_sports? If the clip you saw was old, then it could be one of the sports no longer practiced at the Olympics. I've been following this year's Olympics pretty well, and have watched a little of every sport they have played, and none of this year's sports fit your description.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that you have seen this on the orf channel, you may as well give them a call and ask. After all, you are paying for the privilege of watching TV in this country. --62.47.142.0 (talk) 21:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

May I sugggest Kaatsen? DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

August 24

I know this is a tricky one

But.... what is the probability that someone asks a Q on the Rds and we DONT have an article on it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moonspeaker (talk • contribs) 03:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a Math desk question - but let's hit the concepts here - have you heard of a Fermi problem? Unfortunately, the baseline for this problem is terrible - do you know about Gödel's incompleteness theorems? Not only can we not complete a system, but we can't even speak to what's incomplete. Shortly, the answer is (I think) best stated in Hamlet -

"Hamlet: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Or, in math terms - the probability is 1. Weird how that deviates from observation. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 04:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to take a different approach and define the reference desk to be an article, thus making the answer 0. While this answer doesn't deviate from observation, it does deviate from standard assumptions. Anyone got a non-deviant answer? --Tango (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Rate of article growth

In truth - all it would take is for someone to go through a few days' worth of articles to get a reasonable statistical answer. (No! It's too late and I'm tired!) There are really two classes of question for which we don't have an article:

• Those (like this one) where you really wouldn't expect there to be an article because the question is about a completely non-notable subject - or is a matter of opinion or is just nonsense.
• Those where you would expect there to be an article but there just isn't.

The latter kind are almost non-existant. I think I've only found one in the last week or so. I linked to maieusiophobia/maieuticophobia (an unusually great fear of pregnancy) - which has neither article nor Wiktionary definition. It's becoming quite unusual to find that though. Very often, when we find a gap in Wikipedia's coverage, someone will actually go and start an article - part of the Reference Desk's function is to find that kind of hole.

That lack of 'holes' suggests that Wikipedia is getting close to being "finished" for all notable human knowledge - obviously it'll never be literally finished because new knowledge is being created all the time - and we may start lowering our standards of notability if we really do get a serious drop in creation rate.

There is also some evidence (see graph at right) that the rate of article creation is starting to level off - which supports that idea that people are running out of things to write about.

SteveBaker (talk) 04:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried to see that, but couldn't, Steve. The graph's had basically the same tangent since early 2005; and (apart from an odd surge in late 2003, followed by a corresponding plateau) it's been steeper since 2005 than at any previous time. Doesn't this mean that today we're still finding as many new topics per month as we've done at any previous time (apart from the 2003 surge)? -- JackofOz (talk) 06:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't see a reduction in the steepness of the curve starting in the third quarter of 2006? Remember - we aren't looking for the curve to become a horizontal line because new knowledge appears spontaneously in the world every day at some rate. What we're looking for is a change from a time when we were adding old knowledge AND new knowledge - to a point when we're pretty much only adding new knowledge. IMHO, we switched from a roughly exponential growth rate to a more or less linear growth rate sometime in late 2006. I guess this would be more obvious in a graph showing the number of articles created per day rather than a graph of the total number of articles in the encyclopedia - but I couldn't find one of those for the English Wikipedia. The other languages are (of course) far, far behind - if there were reference desks in other languages, I'd expect them to see many more 'holes' than we do. SteveBaker (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It definitely looks to me like it's leveling off—it looks like the beginning of a logistic curve with the inflection point at around 1.5 million articles. -- BenRG (talk) 16:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of questions about things we don't have articles on. The more important consideration is the number of questions about articles that we should have articles on, but don't. Those are pretty rare actually. Have a look at WP:RDAC, which lists some articles that were created as a direct consequence of a question here. For example: Moments of Reprieve and Minnie D. Craig. Dostioffski (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

But we've created 200k articles in the first third (roughly) of 2008, which would be (again roughly) 660k in a full year. That's a higher annual rate than ever. There were 600k in 2007; 650k in 2006; 450k in 2005; 250k in 2004; 100k in 2003; 85k in 2002; and 15k in 2001. 2007 was a little less active than 2006, but 2008 appears to be reversing that trend. If all these new articles don't fall into the category of "articles on topics we should have articles on", what are they doing there? Steve, I interpret the legend to mean that it's purely counting cumulative numbers of articles, not the size of the total data holdings (however that's measured). -- JackofOz (talk) 21:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on whether you think an article on every episode of a cartoon is something we should have ;). However, that wasn't really my point. My point was that the sort of questions we get asked here can be distributed into two categories: those that we should have articles about (based on our current inclusion criteria) and those that we shouldn't. It seems to me that there are surprisingly few of the former category where we don't have an article (or some information in a closely related article). Why that is, I don't know, but it might be because OPs tend to be exoteric in their choice of questions. Perhaps those that are interested in the more esoteric subjects, that we don't have good coverage of, are more likely to find the information themselves, and don't need our help! Dostioffski (talk) 01:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where you're getting your data - the graph doesn't look like that to me.

The distinction in the nature of articles is that we're likely to have a new article entitled the "2xxx Olympic Games" created every four years from now until the Internet freezes over. But articles like "Pythagoras's Theorem" that essentially documents "old knowledge" must eventually all be created. Between three years ago when I started editing and now, it's really noticable how hard it has become to come up with a notable "old knowledge" topic that hasn't already been done. So it seems reasonable that the rate of production of "old knowledge" articles will eventually come to an almost complete halt (I would contend that we're actually pretty close to that point right now). "New knowledge" articles will of course continue to be needed - but that ought to cut back the rate of article production significantly.

Look at an Encyclopedia Britannica "Year Book" - it contains only "new knowledge" and each yearbook represents about 3% of the entire encyclopedia. If we assumed that those numbers held for us then if (say) 1.5 million of Wikipedias 2.5 million articles today were "old knowledge" then a new article creation rate of 3% of that would be just 50,000 articles per year. Clearly we're at nothing like such a low level - but then we create an immense number of articles about things like individual episodes of "The Simpsons" and each and every character within the series - when the Britannica probably gives the entire phenomenon not much more than a footnote.

IMHO, what will eventually happen if article creation rates really do tank - is that the notability criteria will be gradually relaxed. They are currently completely arbitrary.

SteveBaker (talk) 01:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Since you mentioned it, I'll note that the going rate for articles per summer olympics seems to be somewhat more than five hundred. Algebraist 01:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yikes! I annotated the graph at right: The red region looks like the initial exponential growth of a new novelty thing. The green region looks like we settled into a more or less linear growth rate that's pretty much inevitable when everyone who is likely to become a Wikipedia editor is already a Wikipedia editor. The pink bit at the end looks to me like the beginnings of a slowdown. SteveBaker (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Why wikipedia has no article on Demolition of the Babri Mosque

Why wikipedia has no article on Demolition of the Babri Mosque? Why the article on Babri Mosque contains so little information about its demolition? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Because no-ones written it yet? Why don't you make a start? Nanonic (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Wikipedia is a volunteer run project and a work in progress. Articles and sections of articles are written because someone came along who identified something they thought was missing and decided to fill that gap. That is not to say that anything can be added. We do have content policies and guidelines, such as that articles must be on notable topics; the information in articles must be verified by reliable sources; must be written from a neutral point of view and; article must not contain original research. So if you see a gap, you can be bold and fill that gap yourself, keeping in mind the policies I've noted. You can also flag that something is missing by going to the associated discussion page of an article (see here, talk:Babri Mosque), and note the missing content. It is best to do so by not just stating it's missing, but pointing other to sources to verify what can and should be written. Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It was a very important and tragic event, involving thousands of deaths. Like many other very important topics it is simply not really in wikipedia yet. I urge Otolemur crassicaudatus to amass some RS's and start an article on it, what is in the Babri Mosque article is much too little.John Z (talk) 13:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

how do I know when to pick spaghetti squash

I have a spaghetti squash plant in Minnesota and i have squash that looks like the squash in the store is it ready to pick? Tom from Minnesota —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.66.101 (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently if it has a yellowish tint, it is ready:

Harvesting your spaghetti squash occurs once it has reached its’ buttery yellow or deep orange coloring.

[12] Fribbler (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) A bunch of Google searches I just tried indicates that spaghetti squash is not highly susceptible to a ripeness window, but rather can be picked at anytime once it reaches a decent size. Some things to look for are the brightness of the yellow in the skin and, "if your finger nail won't pierce the skin then its ready to pick." This is all secondhand material so take it as you will.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Volume of Headphones

For various reasons, I've had to replace the headphones on my MP3 player several times now. I have noticed that different headphones can need significantly different volume settings on the player to obtain the same volume level coming from the earphones. I don't have a decibel meter handy, but I'm pretty sure it is not a perceptual problem on my end (levels are consistent per headphone, and jump back and forth as I swap headphones). Is there some way to tell which headphones are "louder" than others before buying them? Is it in some way connected to the impedance measure I see listed on the box? Thanks. -- 76.204.102.226 (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Basically (I'm no expert), the lower the impedance, the easier it is for any given player to drive the headphones. You have high impedance cans, you need something like a headphone amp to boost the signal so that it's loud enough. With my ipod, my ear-canal headphones have an impedance of 48 ohms, and I have to play them at a much higher volume than my 32-ohm standard headphones to get the same volume. I've read that below 20 ohms the linear relationship breaks down a little. Darkspots (talk) 16:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Nah. You need the dBA per milliwatt to be quoted . This is the efficacy of the headphones and will tell you how loud they will be for a defined input power. Alternatively, have you considered you might be going deaf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moonspeaker (talk • contribs) 22:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is one hell of a website

Why don't you guys donate to Wikipedia? Wikipedia has helped me. They need all of the donations they can get. Even the Admins are cool, helpful. They're also very sexy. 205.240.146.233 (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Why thank you for the compliments. Sorry, though, I don't donate because I'm a college student on a tight budget. Useight (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I've already donated hundreds (possibly thousands) of hours of my time to the project, and other regulars here have contributed far more. Good contributions are far more important to the project than money; if you think we're so great, you can best reward us by making us even better. Algebraist 20:04, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

A lot editors also donate money to Wikipedia. I do occasionally, usually when there's a special appeal or something similar. Like Algebraist above the thing I mostly donate is my time. I am also planning a project that will combine my holiday with some voluntary work for Wikipedia - this will cost me money so I suppose you could possibly count part of the cost as a donation to Wikipedia. -=# Amos E Wolfe ^talk #=- 20:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see a calculation similar to that often done for the unpaid value contributed by "housewives": chauffeur, meal planner, cook, trip coordinator, etc. Use the same analogy for Wikipedia volunteers: article writer, wikignome, reference finder, vandal patroller, administrator, mediator, etc. etc. Multiply nominal value by time spent and calculate the "free" investment in Wikipedia. How many billions of dollars would that equal? Franamax (talk) 21:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

And how many of those dollars were contributed by people at work and at school? :) Franamax (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Lots! Of course, those calculations for housewives are complete nonsense - very few housewives are skilled enough to do all (if any) of those jobs on a professional basis. I'm not sure how you would calculate the value for the various jobs Wikipedians do - they are pretty unique to Wikipedia, really (there are similar jobs elsewhere, but nothing quite like us! Dealing with wiki-vandals is very different from cleaning up graffiti). Even if you just assigned a minimum wage (the foundation is based in the US, so let's go with their federal rate of $6.55/hr) and assume the average edit takes 5 minutes (a stab in the dark - many are far shorter, many are longer), and take the number of edits on Special:Statistics (246 million since July 2002 - the number before then is probably pretty small relatively speaking), then multiply it all together and we get $134 million. That's a pretty meaningless number, though - it's fun to calculate it, nevertheless. A better value might be found by looking at the number of visitors we get and seeing how much we could earn by putting a few adverts on the site (a large proportion of the community are dead set against adverts, but we can still consider it hypothetically) - I don't have the figures to work that out, but I've seen other people do the sums and get figures in the billions. --Tango (talk) 21:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the time/dollar values are similarly meaningless - a whole pile of wiki contributors are just not very good, many are decent and a few are simply stellar. Where is someone looking for a topic for their Master's thesis? No charge for the idea. :)

My idea is that we invite Google to take over our search engine, let them place two ads per search, and we (WMF) get 1 million dollars per year. It's a slippery slope, but we'd get a decent internal search - I'd sell my soul for that. As far as your $134m figure, I assume you are talking about just my contributions, right? :) Franamax (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, 205. It's a very refreshing break from what IPs usually give us (RefDesk IP regulars excluded). bibliomaniac15 21:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I've broken the 12,000 edit barrier. So my donation in time is probably well over 2,000 hours - and even at minimum wage, that's a pretty big amount. But I do donate maybe $30 to $80-ish when the request goes out. It would cause a PHENOMENAL upset if Wikipedia added adverts. So many tens of thousands of people donated hundred to thousands of hours to making Wikipedia what it is - on the basis that it was an entirely free site in every sense of the word. If that changed, there would be an enormous upset - I guarantee you'd see a revolt amongst the most dedicated editors - the Wikipedia database would get forked with all of the best editors struggling on with an even worse funded site than we have now - and the main Wikipedia would fall apart due to lack of talent and lack of vandal patrol. Before you know it, it would be like "Yahoo answers". Hopefully enough of the high-up folks understand that. If the foundation ever gets in serious trouble, it's not an expensive operation - a couple of million dollars a year would fund it perfectly well. I'm sure that some company that benefits from us (Google has to be one) would step in with a no-strings-attached grant. Google ALREADY is Wikipedia's most effective search engine - our search box it TERRIBLE. I couldn't count the number of times I've searched for something in our Search box - not found it - Googled it and found a Wikipedia page is the first hit. Every time I do that, Google make money from the ad revenue. They can't fail to have noticed how often Wikipedia is the top hit...they might well fund us without asking for anything in return. Aside from anything else, if Wikipedia DID advertise - as the highest ranked site on the entire internet that doesn't carry advertising, we'd be taking money from their mouths. It would be cheaper to fund us than to compete against us.

(Oh - and I didn't realise that Admins were considered SEXXY! If I'd known that, I wouldn't have turned down the offer to apply to be one last week!) SteveBaker (talk) 01:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

European measurement symbol

File:Milklable.JPG

Milk bottle label with the estimated sign (e)

So my Mom just got home from Denmark with appropriate goodies like herring and cod roe. On each of these packages, next to the weight/volume ("200 g", "300 ml") is an "e" symbol. It looks like a lowercase "e" but it's as large or a bit larger than the "200 g" text and in a different font. The bottom stroke of the "e" doesn't stretch as far right as the top part (and my Unicode listing isn't graphical, so I can't show it here).

It is some sort of standards symbol and I used to know what it meant. Can anyone fill me in? I believe it also shows up on euro wine labels. Thanks! Franamax (talk) 20:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It's the Estimated sign. Nanonic (talk) 20:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Prepackaged food must carry the e / estimated sign in the EU. Basically it guarantees that the weight / volume printed conforms with the EU guidelines, which refer to standard deviation and the like. This is not to be confused with the Ennn numbers, which list the additives in some produce. --62.47.142.0 (talk) 20:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I do so love the RefDesks, thanks for the immediate response! We spent some time looking at the Ennn numbers too. It may be bureaucratic, but I like the idea of having solid references for what's in your food. Now if we could only adopt the idea of ripping off all the extra packaging and throwing it onto the floor right in the store - we might actually see some eco-progress! Thanks again. Franamax (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

And all that litter would create extra employment for cleaners, too.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is precisely the idea. Then the store would tell the manufacturer to stop the nonsense. Buy one stupid little USB memory stick - how much stuff do you throw away? Franamax (talk) 21:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Some larger branches of newsagents in Britain (particularly WH Smith) now provide bins by their magazine/newspaper sections because there was a consumer led campaign in recent times to just shake all the leaflets and other assorted crap contained inside onto the floor before purchasing items in protest at the amount of useless gumpf. Nanonic (talk) 22:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh wonderful! That's so VERY British! We shake out the contents of our magazines in protest then carefully put the resulting trash neatly into the bin provided! It makes me proud to be a member of that quirky little country.

How very clever of them. When I lived in Britain I often bought my newspaper from WH Smith. Yes they were full of leaflets and other crap but I didn't make an issue of it by throwing them on the floor of the shop. I just threw them in the nearest rubbish bin on the street. Would it really have been beyond these "protesters" to do the same thing? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

But it defeats the purpose of protesting. If you simply remove the offending parts and politely put them in the bin provided then there is no incentive for the store to protest to the magazines about how much they are annoying their customers. If you (and an majority of other people) throw the junk onto the floor, the store will be embarrassed by it - and that provides a motive for them to protest to the magazines and prevent the practice. It is slightly unfair to drag the shop into an argument that you essentially have with the magazine - but the alternative is to simply refuse to buy magazines that offend you in this way. If the magazine "understands their readers" they'll fix the problem. But beware of the dangers of getting what you want. With less advertising, the cost of magazines and newspapers would increase dramatically. SteveBaker (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Another alternative – and the one that I would favour – is simply not to bother protesting. Just put your unwanted leaflets in the bin, like you do with all other rubbish, and get on with your life. I am very sceptical about the leap you make from the shop's being embarrassed by litter to the newspapers' putting a stop to the practice (all the shop will do is tell their staff to go round picking the stuff up). But, even if such a link could be proven, there's something insufferably smug about deliberately dropping litter in order to make a point that sticks in my gullet somewhat. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pleased to say that here in the USA, there is the faintest glimmerings of a movement to fix it. Suddenly, all of the stores like WalMart and HEB here in Texas have started selling rather nice $1 re-usable shopping bags to use as an alternative to the free plastic ones. They even claim that these bags are made from recycled plastic. Now, if only I could remember to bring the darned things with me when I go shopping! But it really does annoy me when things are over-packaged...or (in some cases) packaged at all.

However, it's not all forward progress. I think the DIY shops are the worst. It used to be possible maybe 5 years ago to go to Home Depot and buy a large cardboard box full of about 100 screws. Those boxes could be piled up neatly in one corner of your workshop so that the minimal amount of packaging represented by that box was actually a useful thing to have. Now they all come packaged in little bags or vacuum-formed plastic bubble packs with about 8 screws in each. Once you've opened the package and used the one screw you actually needed, the rest fall out and go everywhere and there is really no convenient way to store them other than to go out and buy ANOTHER pile of plastic boxes to put them in and to have to go to all the trouble of labelling the drawers carefully so you can find them again! Argh! SteveBaker (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, while we're off topic on eco-shopping, it reminded me of the supermarket near my office. I bought a chocolate bar to eat while I waited for the bus, and the checkout assistant asked me if I wanted a plastic bag for it. When I looked at her like she'd just grown a third eye, she looked vaguely ashamed and said that she'd been asked for one in similar situations before. 130.56.65.24 (talk) 01:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

In Bermuda one of the larger supermarket chains doesn't even have paper/plastic bags anymore. If you don't bring your own they will gladly sell you a reusable one. Plasticup ^T/C 13:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That would be wonderful! Perhaps this move on behalf of stores in the US will move towards that position. The bags they are selling for $1 hold about the same amount as three or four regular plastic bags - so you don't need many. SteveBaker (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

They've been selling those sturdier reusable bags here for at least 10 years, but you hardly ever see anyone using one. Everyone buys them with the best of intentions, and I've acquired about half a dozen of them in my travels, as have most people I know, but they just sit there collecting dust. Our government's policy is to eventually outlaw plastic bags completely. In the meantime, they've just started to trial a system of charging 10 cents per plastic bag in certain places, to see whether this works as a disincentive. When I was a kid, every housewife had their own large bag, and a string bag for a small shop, and typically they'd come home with very little packaging to have to immediately dispose of. Ah, the good old days. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It's actually not that hard to keep a handful of plastic shopping bags in the car - you just hook the car keys onto the empty bag, then you can't avoid taking it out with you. I personally now walk to all my shopping (yay Kitsilano! :) and I just have made part of the routine of leaving the house stuffing a bag in my back pocket. Habits are what need to change, before anything else. I don't go for that crap where a store makes a profit by selling you a re-usable bag, I just keep bringing the same bags back to the store again and again. Here in Vancouver that's pretty normal and one grocery store gives you 3 cents for each bag produced at the checkout. (I bring 30 bags and ask them to triple-bag each item separately ;) Franamax (talk) 04:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

(Phew that's a lot of colons) Why do people like bags so much? I put one of those plastic storage box in the car, put all the grocery in there in the car and just take the whole box when I get home; so much simpler and neater than bags. (plus you can practise 3D tetris) --antilived^{T | C | G} 05:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

(If the number of colons bothers you, then beyond maybe five or six colons, it's considered perfectly OK to say...

(unindent) Then start your response against the lefthand margin. SteveBaker (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Olympic games

What is their purpose? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moonspeaker (talk • contribs) 22:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Their purpose is set out in the Olympic Charter, but the basic point is to honor and promote the ideals behind the Ancient Olympic Games. Dostioffski (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Peace, love, unity, etc. Plasticup ^T/C 15:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

August 25

Can I really not visit Zanzibar?

I've had a hankering to travel to Zanzibar for years. I liked the sound of a place that was a little off the beaten track but still tourist-friendly, with history, nature, and gorgeous beaches all in one place. Now I'm finally in a financial position to start putting such a trip together, and I read that Zanzibar has banned all gay and lesbian tourists. Does this really mean banned, as in, if I go I will be serving 7 years' hard time in a Tanzanian prison? Or does it just mean that, if I go, I have to leave my rainbow t-shirt at home and refrain from making out with girls while I'm there? How foolish would I be to carry on with my vacation plan? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, you have to ask yourself how they'd know. If there is no way - then they're hardly going to be able to investigate! I just wouldn't make a big show of it if I were you. Anyway - we're not supposed to answer legal question here. "Ask a lawyer". SteveBaker (talk) 00:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, SteveBaker. Zanzibar says that gay and lesbian sex is criminalised. Unless you're wearing your rainbow shirt and making out with your girlfriend/the local women, there's little way to tell - it's not like it's on your passport. However, as a practical (and totally not legally related) suggestion, I advise caution. With a Sunni majority (and some hard feelings about Freddie Mercury (RIP)) flamboyance is probably best kept to a minimum. Otherwise, I'd say, enjoy your trip! Steewi (talk) 01:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

They might describe it as tourist-friendly, but the rate of crime there is high, and on the increase [13], so your sexuality may be the least of your concerns. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

As Steve points out we can’t give you legal advice, but as a general social point of view. . .The thing is, homophobic laws like that are often based on the assumption that being gay or lesbian is an “abominable act,” not an identity. Excerpts from the Qur'an seem to support this view: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." ^{[7:80–84 (Translated by Yusuf Ali)]}. This point of view is often something along the lines that all people are considered straight unless they “choose” to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex. From this perspective it seems likely that such people might not think of considering a person to be homosexual unless they had specific proof of such an action.

Grimly the Qur'an says later on “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.”^{[4:15–16 (Translated by Yusuf Ali)]} --S.dedalus (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I point out one other consideration? Everybody here is thinking about what happens if you get "outed" and arrested. But consider what a law like that also does if, say, someone else finds out and wants to hold it against you (extortion, blackmail). Consider what happens if, say, you do wear your rainbow shirts and etc. and then get robbed—will the police take you seriously? Will they care? Laws like this end up having far more ramifications than just the act they outlaw—they make it so that people who would be found guilty of them end up essentially outside the law, unable to report crimes, etc. Personally I would avoid it. One bad situation or bad choice and you could be in a nasty situation, even beyond the question of getting persecuted by the law itself. Once you're on the criminal side of the line a lot of other bad possibilities open up. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

For a specific example of that, consider what happened to Alan Turing, a brilliant man who was one of the founders of computer science. He reported a theft from his house, and mentioned to the police that he suspected the involvement of a man who had been his lover. England then had a law deeming homosexual acts to be "gross indecency", and Turing was apparently surprised to realize that this would be now be enforced against him. He was sentenced to "chemical castration" hormone injections and apparently committed suicide some time later. The play and TV-movie Breaking the Code dramatizes the story. --Anonymous, 04:11 UTC, August 25, 2008.

Indeed, doubly sad and grotesque since Alan Turing arguable played the greatest single role of any individual in defeating the Nazis (by helping to break the Enigma machine code). However I’m not sure if that is really relevant to this question. An “international” is less likely to persecute too heavily by a friendly nation. See Sudanese teddy bear blasphemy case. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I was in Zanzibar a month ago. The beaches are gorgeous and the history is unique although be warned, it is highly touristy. There is now even a street of boutique-looking shops (Kenyatta). Homosexuality is illegal and there is a vocal Islamist presence. There was supposed to be a celebration of native son, Freddie Mercury, but Islamist pressure ended the planned affair. But it will not be at all foolish to go. Unless you are visible in your demonstration of your identity, no one is going to know. But if you are very worried it might better suit the purpose of a vacation to go somewhere where you will be more relaxed. Southeast Asia has plenty of history and superb beaches. Besides Zanzibar wasn't much of a party spot. Lotsofissues 08:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

To be blunt, I highly doubt Zanzibar has laws against lesbians and gays. The vast majority of laws are against the act (i.e. sex or perhaps even touching, kissing, close contact, etc between people of the same sex), not the person. Locals may sometimes be persecuted on suspicion, but even this is actually a lot rarer then people seem to suggest. Zanzibar probably doesn't want tourists who break their laws, hence gays and lesbians who bring partners (although I suspect they will usually turn a blind eye to this provided you aren't to open about it) and particularly those who involve locals may find themselves in prison (although probably not for long, these sort of things tend to result in the people being deported quickly). But since it sounds like this is not your plan I don't think you will have problems. The issue of blackmail/extortion is not going to arise if your not planning on doing anything illegal since the police are not going to care what you do in your home country and are liable to arrest the person harrasing the tourist. I'm with Steewi here, I would be more concerned about other things like general crime rather then concerns of the way you'll be treated because of your sexuality. Nil Einne (talk) 21:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

My point exactly, just better put by you Nil! Thank you, --S.dedalus (talk) 05:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mozilla and BBC RSS Feed

Why, by default, is my Mozilla Firefox web browser subscribed to the BBC news feed, a UK company, when Mozilla is US-based? Out of all the news agencies, why BBC? Nothing wrong it, but I'm just curious. Acceptable (talk) 01:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Mozilla is aware that there isn't a US news network worth subscribing to. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you in the UK? Firefox can certainly detect your location. Algebraist 01:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The BBC is a highly respected broadcaster, particularly with regards to news, around the world. See BBC World Service. --Tango (talk) 01:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I live in Canada. Acceptable (talk) 01:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm in australia and I get the BBC feed by default. I'm happy with it, I'd have probably signed up to it without firefox's help. Well done Mozilla for having the sense to pick a reputable broadcaster. 144.137.206.217 (talk) 10:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

International Olympic Committee

What would be some requirements to get a job working for the IOC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.95.232 (talk) 01:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is the relevant page on their website. There's no jobs available now though. Algebraist 01:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Labor Day

Who changed the positioning of Labor Day this year and why was it done? 69.146.1.37 (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Since you're spelling it Labor and not Labour, I'm going to assume that you're talking about the American holiday and not any of the others of similar name. Our article about Labor Day points out that it's been on the first Monday of September for quite some time. This years occurance is no different. Dismas|^(talk) 02:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I was born on Labor Day. Apparently my mom didn't enjoy the irony. Plasticup ^T/C 12:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Medal percentage

What percentage of all athletes at the 2008 Olympics won at least 1 medal? Nadando (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You could calculate this yourself, it's pretty simple (though time consuming) math. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

With enough research, you could probably find the number of medal winners and the number of competitors, then it's just a simple division. You'll need to decide what to do about teams, though - do they count once per team or once per person? --Tango (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Members of a medal-winning team get a medal each, so I think it's clear enough how to count them. I don't know where to find the data to answer the question, though. The 2008 Olympics article says there were 10,500 athletes and 302 events, so if there were no teams, no ties, and no multi-medal winners then 906/10,500 = 8.6% of the athletes would have won medals; but that's clearly just a rough approximation. --Anonymous, 04:18 UTC, August 25, 2008.

It's not so clear - while they get a physical medal each, they're only counted on the medals table once. --Tango (talk) 04:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to go that far, Tango. We're talking about individual people who competed at the Games, whether in individual events, team events, or a mixture. If 100 people attended, and 65 of them came home with at least one gold, silver or bronze medal around their necks, whether from individual or team events, that it's true to say that 65% of them won a medal. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a list of medal winners at List of 2008 Summer Olympics medal winners. All you have to do is count them, ignoring repeats. Algebraist 11:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I count that article as showing 2,056 actual medals awarded to 1,885 distinct individuals. This count is based on the assumptions that (1) the formatting of the wikitext is consistent throughout the article, allowing it to be mechanically collapsed into a list of names, (2) each wikilink to a multi-medal winner is rendered the same way each time, rather than using alternate forms of the name, and (3) there are no cases of a failure to disambiguate two medalists of the same name. The article also says that "approximately 11,028 athletes were expected to participate". Well, if 1,885/11,028 is correct, then that would be 17.1%. --Anonymous, 21:45 UTC, August 25, 2008.

Wool coat

Where can I get a nice looking wool coats in a European style? All I can find are pea coats, but I’ve seen nice intellectual looking casual wool coats warn by guys (single-breasted coats I believe). --S.dedalus (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried looking in Google images with the search parameters mens+wool+coat+-pea ? Click on photos you like, and chances are good they come from commercial websites with catalog service. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If you have a G-note to spare, how about this cashmere one [14], or is it too conservative for you? ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

MAny game companies leave ESA

Who do you think will be the last remaining ESA member and why? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 04:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

We can only speculate, and the RefDesk is not the place for idle speculation. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 04:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Then where is? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

A forum for discussions on ESA, whatever that may be. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily have to be a forum for discussion ESA, any forum for general discussion on the gaming world would probably accept a question of the sort. No where on wikipedia though. In any case, your question appears to have started off from the wrong premise. Some companies have left Entertainment Software Association but a large number including most of the biggest remain members Nil Einne (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The answer is that ESA would collapse long before they got down to having a single remaining member - hence there won't likely be a "last remaining member". The "why?" is therefore likely to be a meaningless question. SteveBaker (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

How to eliminate sweat odours from earphones  ?

I use the same pair of in-ear earphones in the gym. Lately, the headphones started giving our a bed sweaty smell. Is there a way to clean/eliminate this smell without damaging the earphones ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbarak (talk • contribs) 05:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The smell could be from bacteria feeding off sweat that builds up in your ears. Are they earbuds (plug-in) or headphones (cover the ear)? I suggest taking them off momentarily every ten minutes or so, between sets. This will let your ears cool down, and the bacteria won't find your ears as inviting. If it's just sweat, then removing them between sets and wiping the sweat off with a towel might help. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

My father used to be a pilot - their headphones have elasticated cloth covers over the cups that can be removed and washed. Failing that, a LIGHT spray with an antibacterial spray onto foam parts or a wipe with an antibacterial hand wipe ought to solve the problem. If the plastic part with the holes leading to the actual speaker parts are visible - then you should block those with something before you spray anything because the spray could easily penetrate through and produce deposits on the delicate moving parts that would mess up the sound quality. SteveBaker (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The OP said they were in-ear phones, ie earbuds.

If they have foam covers, there's not a lot you can do - a sponge like that will be great for soaking up sweat and harbouring bacteria. If they're hard plastic, then Steve's idea of an antibacterial wipe sounds like a good one. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 17:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The foam covers are usually replaceable. I haven't looked for a while (I use big headphones now), but I remember seeing packets of replacement foam covers for purchase in the hi-fi store. The covers will probably go over most buds (in-ear phones) and can be switched when they get a bit gross. There may be some sound loss if you use them, though. Steewi (talk) 04:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Applause/Applaud

Say if there was a sign on a show telling you to clap, would the sign be Applause or Applaud? 220.244.78.217 (talk) 05:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

ask on language desk. 89.243.144.88 (talk) 07:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've only ever seen APPLAUSE. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Presumable "Applaud" would sound too much like command "Applause" is a statement of what might be appropriate at this point in time - and therefore seems more like a suggestion to the audience. SteveBaker (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thirded. --Masamage ♫ 21:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Two phone numbers for same place in early days?

A few businesses in an old phone directory I saw recently had different numbers listed - here, in the middle of this page is an example of what I mean. (http://distantcousin.com/Directories/OH/Canton/1914/Pages.asp?Pages=584)

Why would this be? Did this represent two different switchboards? Within versus outside of Stark County, perhaps? I don't know if it would be the latter, because not every one had both. The article on telephone numbers seemed to indicate it might have something to do witht he switchboard, though.Somebody or his brother (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

They're labelled "Bell" and "Stark", which suggests to me that the two telephone networks weren't joined at that time so if you wanted people with either company to be able to call you, you needed a line with each. However, our article on Bell labs says they were only founded in 1925, but the name may have been in use before then. I don't know who "Stark" would be, presumably some local network. --Tango (talk) 17:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) This is only speculation, but I wonder if at that time the area had two competing phone companies which didn't interoperate. To receive calls from all its potential customers, a business might get phones from both companies installed, which would naturally have different numbers. So if you the customer had a Bell phone, you could call them on 1234, if you had a Stark phone it's 5678. It fits the facts, but as I say a total guess. I suggest you wait and see if someone can provide a more factual answer :-) 81.187.153.189 (talk) 17:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I was researching based on the same assumptions as above, but I also noted that Canton Ohio is in Stark County. That fact didn't lead me any further toward an answer though. I'll also note that there was some sort of "Bell Telephone Company" since at least 1879, according to the American Telephone & Telegraph article, Bell Labs came later. --LarryMac | Talk 18:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

My guess would be Bell System number and non-Bell number. The Bell telephone system in the early days refused to cooperate in any way with non-Bell exchanges, as in making long distance connections. The non-Bell phone system might have offered lower rates for local subscribers. An interesting piece of Americana. Edison2 (talk) 05:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Footnote: When Woodrow Wilson became president in 1913, his attorney general advised AT&T that they were likely in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. The Department of Justice started proceedings, but it was settled out of court when the head of AT&T committed to (a) sell the bulk of its Western Union stock; (b) purchase no more telephone companies without the consent of the Interstate Commerce Commission; and (c) allow other companies to interconnect. After this, the need for homes to have multiple systems became a thing of the past. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hindu Unity

Hindu Unity is blocked in India, but why Hindu Unity is not blocked in Vatican City and in the United States despite the fact it puts Pope John Paul II, The New York Times, Pervez Musharraf and Sonia Gandhi in their "hit list" as "evil forces that are against the Hindu people"? Why the US allows hate sites like this? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The US and most of its people believe that Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and vital to the health of a democracy. APL (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not about freedom of speech, this is about prevention and legislation against hate speech. See Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally I am not a fan of censorship in any form, but it is worth noting that even in the United States some forms of hate speech are allowed. Censorship in the United States: it is legal to express certain forms of hate speech so long as one does not engage in the acts being described or urge others to commit illegal acts. Plasticup ^T/C 17:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hindu Unity urge people to kill the above mentioned persons. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, calling Sonia Gandhi "evil" and "enemy of Hindus" is defamation. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

First amendment, man. Plasticup ^T/C 18:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

See First_amendment#Libel.2C_slander.2C_and_private_action. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, don't argue with us. Wikipedia's Reference Desk does not make or enforce the law. APL (talk) 18:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Besides, The site in question seems to resolve to an Israel IP address. APL (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

How many sites do you think you could find belonging to US citizens hosted on servers within USA that say X is evil and the enemy of Y? (Pick your own "X" and "Y") I guarantee there are thousands - perhaps tens of thousands of them. Can you ban one site like this and not the others? On what grounds? How many of these are sued for defamation in a given year? (Hint: None of them) Would you ban my website if I said "George Bush is evil and the enemy of the American People"? Where do you stop? Do you ever stop?

"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -- John F. Kennedy

SteveBaker (talk) 23:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, as I understand it, George could theoretically sue you for that, but as a "public figure" he would have to prove actual malice — either that you knew he was not evil or was not an enemy of the American people, or that you made the claim with reckless disregard for its truth. I would guess, though I'd just be speculating, that the more public the figure, the higher the bar for that showing, to the point that it would probably be impossible for George Bush. I also vaguely recall that there's another principle in slander law, or libel law, or both, that makes it more difficult to prove slander/libel if the speech in question was merely insulting without making specific definable claims, but I'm not sure of the details there.

Now in your homeland the law is much more favorable to plaintiffs. On the Continent it's even worse — Italy for example has criminal sanctions against insulting the head of state, and I don't think it's unique in that regard. Derives from the old concept of lèse majesté. --Trovatore (talk) 01:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Pope John Paul II, Pervez Musharraf and Sonia Gandhi are also public figures - so the exact same argument applies. SteveBaker (talk) 03:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sure, in the US. My point was that it's not impossible in principle for them to win a lawsuit, just very difficult.

Now, if the Hindu Unity site is actually calling for their murder, as Otolemur claims, of course that's very different. You do get into some difficult calls if it's only hinting at it. (Shades of Thomas Beckett.) I'm speaking theoretically here; I haven't actually visited the website. --Trovatore (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI, the 'pure insult is not libelous' doctrine is mentioned (very) briefly at the bottom of Defamation#Other defences. Algebraist 01:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

"legislation against hate speech." is a legal affront to freedom of speech. That's pretty basic. You can't be free to express any opinion you want if expressing certain opinions is outlawed. APL (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Living in a country where they are putting in more and more laws to prevent me being perverted by evil people I feel more and more threatened by the state. I also see people making ever more stupid decisions in the interests of appearing righteous. Thank you but no thanks to you for trying to make the word safer for me by preventing me reading the rantings of this looney crowd. Dmcq (talk) 22:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if it were legal and desirable to do so, it takes a government considerable effort to block access to specific Internet sites. The Internet was specifically designed to automatically "route around damage" (ironically - by the US Military!) - and censorship appears just like damage to the networking algorithms.

It's been done in (for example) China (see Golden Shield Project - more often known as "The Great Firewall of China") - but to do so requires that government has the right to interpose "firewall" computers between the countries' internal Internet and all external networks. That requires some seriously draconian laws and a ton of money (it's estimated that China's system cost over a billion dollars) - and I doubt it would be possible in the USA because there are so many incoming and outgoing links and they are rarely government owned. Even China's system leaks like a seive - there are a ton of ways a determined resident can circumvent it - so blocking of the site has to be accompanied by laws to allow investigation and punishment of people within your country when they are found to have worked around the firewall. Even if you do succeed in blocking access to it to "normal" people, you have the problem that inevitably, people who are in favor of the views of the site - or in favor of free speech - will obtain the data from the site and put it up on a server someplace else. In the USA, people will work to bypass censorship even when the material to be accessed is largely uninteresting. To completely shut the site down would be very tough indeed. SteveBaker (talk) 22:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to interject that it is amusing to have John Paul II on a hit list. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Name

Can you make a name and surname of letters AAACDGIJJNOST? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atacamadesert12 (talk • contribs) 16:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Depends on where you live and who you wish to recognize you by that name. See Name change. Some legal juurisditions do not allow you change your name to "nonsense", but if you don't care to legally change it you can just ask your friends to call you whatever you want. Plasticup ^T/C 17:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the original poster is referring to an anagram, actually. If that is the case, the answer is "probably yes". I mean, I can't come up with one right off the bat, but especially if the name doesn't have to be limited by ethnicity, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You can make lots of names, depending on what you're prepared to accept as a surname. First names in there include Jocasta, Jade, Jason, and Jonas.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Can sad jato jig? Jots can aid jag. Plasticup ^T/C 18:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The internet Anagram server[15] has a setting for names. But most of them are pretty obscure with those letters. [16] APL (talk) 18:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, everyone! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atacamadesert12 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hearing aids

Has anyone experience of the effectiveness of hearing aids that are incorporated in the arms of spectacles please?--88.110.157.156 (talk) 18:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

How is it possible to create one's own "Black Border" pictures such as the motivational ones and assorted parodies?

Not quite sure where to ask this, might as well come here! I'm referring in the question to those pictures of an image, surrounded entirely by a black border, then one or two well chosen words to sum it up and a sentence or two underneath giving more context. There are of course thousands of parodies, this is one I have to hand as an example. [17]. I would like to create my own, using my own images, but am not quite sure how to do so. Could anyone suggest an imaging tool of some kind that I could do it with? Thanks. Caissa's DeathAngel (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much any image editting software can do that, but if you don't want to bother making it by hand you can use one of thousands of online tools. But be warned, the flashy font is no substitute for wit. Plasticup ^T/C 19:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

True...very, very true. SteveBaker (talk) 22:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Steve. I can't think when I've laughed so much at a demotivational poster before! Gwinva (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Love the "Plasticups" in the image. :-) Fribbler (talk) 23:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly those off-the-shelf tools will make one for you with little effort. But if you prefer, it's a very easy job with an image editor like The GIMP (which is a freely downloadable and v.powerful image editing tool). Make a new image - paint it black, cut/paste your image and resize it to about 80% of the size of the background - center it horizontally - and 'eyeball' positioning it vertically to leave a small black border at the top and space for the text at the bottom. Pick a prominant color from within the image for the large font text. Type in the text for the top row of words WITHOUT the first and last letter (for some reason, real (de)motivational posters always make those bigger). Pick a rather serious-looking font (Times' Roman should be fine) and crank the size up so it's about half the width of the image. Then enter the first and last letters at a font size that's maybe 40% larger than the letters in the middle. You have to drag them around a bit to get the spacing right. Finally, put the "punchline" in much smaller white lettering - centering the text between the two large letters from the title. With practice, and a little wit - you can knock one out in 2 minutes 48 seconds (I have NO idea where I got that number ;-) SteveBaker (talk) 22:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always used MS paint. --Random832 (contribs) 20:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If that was a call for sympathy - you have it! Download GIMP...it's better. SteveBaker (talk) 04:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Or Paint.NET, which IMO is a lot easier to use than GIMP (which has its own, idiosyncratic interface). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Eeuuwww! Nasty. No decent scripting and no high dynamic range support? No Mac version - Linux version is painful. Slow C# implementation is like editing in molasses. I could go on. Also, there is a version of GIMP that has essentially the same interface as photoshop if that's what you want. SteveBaker (talk) 16:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I like my own Smell

Dear Wikipedian Contributors,

I like my own person body scent. When I sleep in the same blanket for extended periods of time and my scent rubs off on it, I find that smelling the blanket full of own scent is very relaxing. Is there a name for this behaviour? Am I alone in feeling so?

Thanks. ITGSEETest (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's an article that discusses scents and their possible meaning. Not quite what you're looking for, I reckon, but a good read. I find (WP:OR) that most people are ambivalent/enamoured of their own smell. Possibly because we are "marking our territory" and possessions. I don't know. Maybe someone else can find a study or survey. Smell ya' later! Fribbler (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Familiarity would be part of it. The familiarity of a smell works on animals (such as a puppy feeling comforted by a blanket smelling of its owner when it goes to a new house) and probably on humans. Your own smell is around you most of the time, even if you shower regularly. Why some (many?) people enjoy the smell of their own gaseous rectal expulsions is perhaps harder to explain. Steewi (talk) 04:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Moving to Victoria BC and or surrounding areas

Hi......Help with finding living accommodations in houses, apartments, or senior communities for rent. I am a retired gentlemen, single and in good health looking for diverse natural habitats with people orientation. HillstreetrunHillstreetrun (talk) 22:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you mean Victoria, British Columbia, then check out the city's website, which provides a lot of information and links for the area, including a list of neighbourhood associations which may offer some help. Gwinva (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

A Google search for "senior communities" is quite fruitful too. Fribbler (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I use usedvictoria.com for a lot of things around here. There are often "roomates wanted"-type ads. I warn you though, occupancy is very high here at the best of times. Also, UVIC draws in a lot of students in September; this is the worst time to find a place. You might find a good deal on anything that is unfilled by the end of September though.NByz (talk) 22:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, if you're looking for retirement living, my grandma lives @ "the victorian" (link below). It's pretty nice. It's near [| Mount Douglas Park] and in a pretty low-density neighbourhood.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=the+victorian,+victoria+bc&fb=1&view=text&latlng=4649922984907742039 NByz (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

August 26

new sentai rangers

i was email and was told that ther are new power sentai ranger called metal sentai gear rangers is this true i have a photo of them email me to let me noo at [email address removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.165.140 (talk) 02:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed your email address. Replies will be given here - putting your email address online like that is likely to result in large amounts of spam. --Tango (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Unitarian Universalism (cont.)

Whether or not Unitarian Universalists believe that the Bible is inerrant and infallible or not, do they believe that it is inspired by God? Do they believe any holy book to be a source of divine revelation? If so, then do they believe the Bible to be a source of divine revelation? If not, then what holy book do they believe to be a source of divine revelation? If they don't believe any holy book to be a source of divine revelation, then what do they believe to be a source of divine revelation?

When I say Unitarian Universalists, I mean especially the Christian Unitarian Universalists.

Bowei Huang (talk) 06:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. This is a religion characterized, for the most part, by a lack of a formal and official creed. You can have a Unitarian Universalist who believes that natural sciences are a source of divine revelation and another who thinks that the Bible is a source of divine revelation (even if it isn't inerrant and infallible), for example. The whole point of the religion is that you get to pick what sounds good to you and ignore everything else. You can't make generalizations like this about Unitarian Universalists. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that all Unitarian Universalists would even find 'divine revelation' to be a useful phrase when describing what they believe. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you both, although the OP did ask specifically about Christian UUs... while they, too, are theologically diverse, it might be possible to outline some trends. I don't think Wikipedia has this answer, but here's the website for the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship. I don't know if it would have survey results or anything like that, but it might offer a better sense of who UU Christians are. --Allen (talk) 22:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Bartering sex for stuff and services

How can I know if a woman likes me or if she is bartering sex for stuff and services (see this for the full-story. Mr.K. (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you could ask her, but presumably if you are in a long-term relationship you wouldn't have to. If you're not in a serious relationship, then what's the difference? She is getting something out of it, whether it be emotional comfort or a trip to the rainforest, and you are too. Plasticup ^T/C 12:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought that article was very odd. I've never heard of anyone bartering sex for services. Maybe it happens. But it seems unlikely to me to be really as prevalent as they report. Or maybe I'm just sad because nobody's tried to barter sex for any of my services! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I saw that on digg.com earlier, perhaps "dig" through the comments there for some more opinions. Useight (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You could try not offering the stuff or services. See if she's interested in just sitting down and watching TV and eating pizza with you. --Tango (talk) 17:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but you might have more luck with conversation than with TV and pizza. I guess it depends on the girl though. Plasticup ^T/C 18:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, I was assuming you would talk while watching TV - if you're both just engrossed in the TV show, it's not going to work! --Tango (talk) 21:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Real relationships are usually complicated. She can like you and be trading sex for nice dinners and nights out on the town. Darkspots (talk) 18:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's dinners and nights out, that suggests she does like you - the company is usually more important in those activities than anything else. --Tango (talk) 21:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

From a biological point of view ALL sex is barter of services or goods, hence the heavy wait placed on the woman’s virginity at the time of marriage throughout most of human history. Male animals hove no biological need to be monogamies. In some ways it would make more sense for them to just impregnate as many females as possible. However females are stuck with the young, conceivably after breading with only one male. To increase the survival chances of their young it helps to have the guy stay to help rear the young. How are they to encourage the male to stick around? They offer a barter: the assurance that the male really will be expending his energy in order to bring up his own children (virginity), in exchange for the male remaining monogamous and helping rear the children.

As I understand it this is the leading theory explaining why “virginity” gets hyped up in so many cultures.[18] Sex is basically just an exchange of services. This can be seen even more clearly in the premating rituals of humans: the exchange of ill-considered gifts, take out Chinese food, moral support with that “sadistic old pedophile of a calculus professor”, etc. :) --S.dedalus (talk) 01:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Three golf questions

1. Why is it rare for the 1st or 18th hole of a course to be a par 3?

2. Are there any courses on which the 1st or 18th is the shortest hole?

3. What is the hardest golf hole in the world?

February 15, 2009 (talk) 12:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

For the last, Hole 17 at TPC at Sawgrass is particularly famous (the island green). However, no objective answer exists. For the others: is it in fact (more) rare? Par 3s aren't common, and it's a reasonable expectation that somewhere the first or last hole is shortest. — Lomn 12:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Lomn meant "Par 3s aren't uncommon". Par 2 or par 6 are uncommon. Rmhermen (talk) 14:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't par 2 impossible? Isn't par calculated as the number of shots it should take to get to the green (based on distance), plus 2 for putting? In which case, a par 2 would require the tee to be on the green, which would suggest you're on a mini-golf course. --Tango (talk) 17:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Try Googling /hardest golf hole world/. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Font

Why is Myriad's italic "a" one-storey? February 15, 2009 (talk) 12:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The real question is why it isn't one-story when it is not italic. When it is italic is clear that it is meant to match the loops of b and d and e, etc. In its non-italic form though it doesn't really match anything—it takes up roughly the same amount of space as some of the other letters but that's it, it doesn't share any of their curves or angles. But the answer is no doubt "because the designer thought it looked best that way." (For a fun trip into the wonderful world of fontography, I heavily recommend the film Helvetica.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not unusual - off the top of my head, both Segoe UI and Gill Sans are the same — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 18:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's extremely common among serif fonts as well, e.g. Garamond, Palatino, even Times New Roman. In fact, it's likely that the san-serifs that do this are emulating the serif's approach, which is much older. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Cat jump

I am cat-sitting for a friend, and I'm worried about his cat jumping off my balcony. I live on the 1st floor (2nd floor for Americans), and it's a good 4m down to a concrete pavement from my balcony. How likely is it that the cat will jump down? He seems to like sitting on my balcony railing, and I'm getting nervous... — QuantumEleven 12:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR warning... From my experience with having cats all my life, they won't jump if they don't feel they can do it safely. And I doubt any cat will think that jumping from 4m up is safe. (As a side note though, one of my cats just fell while walking from the bed to the night table... So, letting the cat sit on the railing may not be a good idea.) Dismas|^(talk) 12:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I just thought of another example from my own house. We have a post and beam house. The cats will sometimes go out onto one of the beams that is about 3m high. So far, they've looked but have never jumped down from it. Dismas|^(talk) 12:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If the cat looks like it does this often then don't worry about it. It's unlikely they'll jump down or do anything that will get them hurt. Cats love sitting in windows and balconies and watching people down below. They don't usually chase after things. They're stalkers, not chasers. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not unusual for a cat to fall if startled, and they startle easily. Edison2 (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much everyone for your help! I shall see what the daft feline does... :) — QuantumEleven 05:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

My cat once fell from banister on the second floor to the first floor of my house and walked away like nothing happened. --Candy-Panda (talk) 11:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

This is now the RDs Schrödinger's cat (okay, I'm not sure what the trigger is in this analogy) ... did the cat survive your period in charge? --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh great - now you've rolled us all into a superposition that we can't escape until the OP tells us what happened! SteveBaker (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Scissors

Most scissors have a screw holding the blades together, but you cant use the screw to tighten the blades cos it wont turn. Why is a screw used than? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LCMk2 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mine have a rivet like this, but google shows some with screws, like this. That's a good question, and I've never thought about it before. Does the screw have a screw-like body, or just that flat-head head? Maybe (for some quirky reason) the screw heads are cheaper than regular rivet heads? Plasticup ^T/C 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mine has a flat-screw head but if I open it wide enough (and past a little click-resistor thingy) it will come apart - allowing me to clean (or sharpen) the scissors easily. I suspect that ones with a screw-head that serve no purpose to the consumer have such a design because of the machinery that builds them - or as Plasticup suggests perhaps because of cost. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

For scissors I use in the kitchen, the ability to disassemble them is essential to getting them properly clean in the dishwasher. SteveBaker (talk) 14:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Most scissors don't need any tightening, your grip keeps the blades together. That's why there's right hand scissors and left hand scissors. I use my right hand scissors in my left hand for cutting the nails on my right hand bu I have to hold it backwards so the blades keep together. Dmcq (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe thats why they invented nail clippers--79.76.196.178 (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I might surmise the screw is for ease of disassembly. Although most scissors are probably discarded before/when they get dull, in certain instances people may want to sharpen them. While there are now tools for sharpening scissors while still together, some people may prefer to disassemble them first, and then use conventional sharpening techniques. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The screw may have turned at one time, allowing the scissors to be assembled and adjusted, but the other end of the screw may then have been swaged or peened to lock it in place.

Atlant (talk) 13:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Linda Theret's daughter's name

What is the name of Linda Theret's daughter? Ericthebrainiac (talk) 18:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Karrissa. Dostioffski (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Where are they now?

Several years ago, 2 women who went to collede in the Boston area, bedded a number of men and then told what they were like in a public forum. What happen to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.112.109.251 (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There was such an incident which received TV coverage, probably 10 to 20 years ago. Two college girls published some sort of ratings of a huge number of men they had sex with at a particular college. A Google search for such vague terms would probably lead to lots of non-work-safe sites. The girls were interviewed on a TV news magazine show, perhaps 60 Minutes. Edison2 (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this an urban legend?

Is it true that your IQ can slightly drop if you are in an excessively hot or cold place due to your brain being too hot or cold, or is this just another urban legend? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hi, this is my username (talk • contribs) 22:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Your ability to concentrate may well be affected by extreme temperatures, which would impair your ability to perform well on IQ tests. The temperatures would have to be very extreme, or for very prolonger periods, for the temperature of your brain to actually change - see hypothermia and hyperthermia. If you get into one of those conditions, cognitive function could well be impaired, I don't know the details (those articles may help). --Tango (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Cognative impairment is one of the first symptoms of hypothermia. --Carnildo (talk) 00:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

As a note a person's IQ is not a static measurement such as one's height, age or weight. An IQ is simply the result of a test, which means the result can vary slightly from test to test, even when under the exact same conditions. So yes, extreme cold or heat can distract a person or impare their concentration where they might perform differently on a test. However, cold or heat doesn't necessarily effect one's mental capacity except in extreme cases such as hypothermia. Bvlax2005 (talk) 03:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be very hard indeed to figure out whether any IQ drop was due to brain heating or cooling instead of the person being just too generally uncomfortable to be able to concentrate. I don't think that's an experiment that could ever be done under sufficiently controlled conditions to know either way. Since we cannot reasonably know - any claim that we DO know is strongly likely to be an urban legend. SteveBaker (talk) 04:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

In later stages of hypothermia, people often don't feel cold - so it could be said this isn't affecting their concentration. They certainly suffer severe confusion and mental impairment though. I expect full blown hypothermia is more extreme than what the questioner was asking about though. the wub "?!" 12:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Ah...Mr Jones - I see you're in the later stages of hypothermia. Now, if you could just take this standardized IQ test - then we can get on with warming you up and saving your life. You're shivering too hard to hold the pen? ...Oh dear - I'll just have to give you a zero then."... But really - how can you know that it's cooling of the brain? It could be pain or vibration due to shivering or some chemical excreted into the blood when other tissues get cold or...who knows? The idea that the ONLY effect of late-stage hypothermia is brain cooling is nuts. If it's not the only effect then you need to control for the other effects. You'd have to (for example) compare people who were in late-stage hypothermia with people whom you'd cooled down to late-stage hypothermia while carefully keeping their brains warm. It's simply impossible that anyone could conceivably have done those experiments. So this is either urban legend or bad science - either way you can't rely on it. SteveBaker (talk) 17:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, if you happen to be a rock-based life form then your IQ becomes very dependent on the temperature. In warm climates, discussions rely on head thumps, but in cold, quantum mechanics becomes understandable —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worm That Turned (talk • contribs) 10:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Colleges?

Is there any page on Wikipedia where I can collectively find numerous colleges in the United States of America? Perhaps a reference page to different colleges that have different majors? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous16 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll probably want to start with the article Lists of universities and colleges, and pages linked there in, including List of American institutions of higher education. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 00:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Antique Motor Scooter

I have a 1958 Forall Gasoline powered Motor Scooter that was made in Springfield,Illinois by the ILL FDRY CO.

I cannot find anything out about it - can you help ?

I have spent hours and sent I don't know how many e-mails and no one seems to know anything about it.

Any help will be appreciated. Pat Anderson [email removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.255.0.169 (talk) 23:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed your email address; we do not give personal replies, and your email address is likely to attract spam. Gwinva (talk) 23:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly hard to find anything! The only thing I could find was http://www.mikeybike.com/ - where there is a 'Forall' on the list of bikes he says he owns. There is a phone number and an email address. Maybe he knows something. Do you have a photo of this machine anywhere we could see? Maybe that would suggest something.

Good luck! SteveBaker (talk) 04:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

At first glance, I assumed "ILL FDRY CO" would be "Illinois Foundry Company", but that's not turning up much. There is an Illini Foundy Company currently located in Peoria. Not much, but perhaps another slim lead. --LarryMac | Talk 12:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - I tried every search imaginable. That some guy at MikeyBike.com owns one is the only thing I turned up. At this point, literally ANY additional information would help. You can try all sorts of wild searches if you have more info. For example - if the scooter is green - then doing a Google image search on "Green scooter" or "Green antique scooter" might throw up a photo - or if there are any other markings on the thing - parts made by some other company - the name of the previous owner - anything. It's amazing what you can find online - but often you have to get really creative in your search. What makes this search especially tough is that the only piece of remotely "unique" information our OP has given us is the name "Forall" - but about a trillion people have accidentaly typed "Forall" instead of "For all" - and those hits dominate the search results. Worse still, the slogan "Scooters for all!" seems to be a super-common slogan for all kinds of scooter-related stuff - so again, we end up with a million hits. A photo of this machine would really help a lot - also ANY other words, numbers, logos related to the scooter. Meanwhile though - a phone call or an email to MikeyBike.com is your best route to more detail. SteveBaker (talk) 17:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

August 27

Why don't more people talk about the 2002 Gujarat violence riots?

My thanks to the fellow above who brought the destruction of the Babri Mosque to my attention. I never heard about the incident before just like, until months ago, I never heard about the riots in Gujarat, which I learned about in a passing reference in a NYT article about bombings in Gujarat. I'm not the only clueless one, many educated Indians I've spoken to living outside of India seemed to have missed this story. I believe I pay very close attention to geopolitics esp. ones involving ethnic animosities. I don't want to sound self-important, but it seems to me that India might be the biggest ticking overlooked time bomb in the world. Is there the possibility of a civil war?

Again, I don't want to sound so self-important so this is not so much a declaration but a discussion prompt. I just want to know more about a region I don't know much about.

Lotsofissues 01:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I certainly heard about it and I'm not Indian and don't take much interest there. Why should there be a civil war? they've been there, done that, result Pakistan and Bangladesh. There'll probably be a few more riots too, how long do you want to go on about them compared to Tibet or Georgia or other such places that are more recent and bigger? 86.9.212.205 (talk) 08:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It's harsh to say it, but for many people, things that happen outside their own country aren't important until the media play it ten times a day. There's a quote from somewhere along the lines of "10,000 dead foreigners are only worth 10 dead Americans (replace with whichever nationality is appropriate)", meaning that the importance of a news story isn't necessarily its magnitude but its identifiability. If it's not in the news, people don't think about it. Steewi (talk) 23:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Given the demographic balance in India between Hindus and Muslims, it would be an unequal civil war. There already was one, somewhat glossed over here. I knew some people from the families involved in that partition, I believe the Indian term for the migrants is mohajirs, though I can't seem to reference it right now.

If you or anyone else is interested in a wide view of events in the world, I would strongly urge you to subscribe to The Economist magazine. Don't be fooled by the name - it is probably the best available source for wide coverage of world events. After 25 or so years of subscribing, I'd heartily recommend it. Franamax (talk) 00:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Live online TV streaming

(I wasn't sure whether this was a computer question or entertainment question, so I figured Miscellaneous was a good place for it.) When I'm away at school, I don't have a TV, or easy access to one, just my computer. I am unable to access most networks' live streaming features because I don't live in the U.S. I know it's possible to find what I'm looking for through other sites because I watched the Oscars online this year, live, commercials and all, from ABC. I got it by googling "live streaming Oscars" during the red carpet pre-show, which bought me a few hours to find a site that worked without missing any of the ceremony (and it did take me a few hours). Six months later, I don't remember what site I used. It's going to be a little harder to google "live streaming Grey's Anatomy" and find a site that works without missing half the season premiere, and it won't work to google it now, because it's not on right now. Most websites out there that offer TV streaming separate by genre, not network (I guess they assume you're randomly surfing for something interesting, not painstakingly searching out a specific program on a specific channel). So, after that very long preamble, my question is: any recommendations (or better yet, instructions) for where I can find the kind of live streaming service I'm looking for? P.S. Not that I actually watch Grey's Anatomy. I restrict my television viewing to much more intellectual programs. I just used it as an example. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the answer you were looking for, but it's a thought: you might be able to download certain shows via BitTorrent and watch them on your computer at the time you choose, rather than having to be online at the exact time the show is streamed. Check the legalities though. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the vast majority of cases. --Tango (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

You can use a proxy server that's based in the US to use websites restricted to Americans. See [19]. Or have a SlingBox attached to a TV in the US. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if someone was breaking the law there, as well, although I've no idea who... --Tango (talk) 02:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for your help. I think I've got it working. I just have one more question: If I find a channel that says ABC News, is that the same as just ABC, or is it some kind of sub-channel that's pure news? (Sorry, don't know much about American TV.) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that TV shows are sold to networks on the basis of licensing in a specific geographical area. So (say) Fox licenses a show for broadcast in the US, it doesn't own the rights to broadcast it in the UK. That was great in the pre-internet-streaming-video era - but that model is breaking down. But until TV and movie production companies get their heads around it, we're kinda screwed. I'd *KILL* for access to the BBC's free TV archives - but they don't let you get at them here in the USA. I watch a lot of TV using www.hulu.com - but I bet they don't deliver content outside the USA. It's anachronistic and a pain in the rear end - but that's how it is. The same problems pop up with DVD region encoding - for much the same reason.

Romance

My wife has said that I need to be romantic. How do I do that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.183.35.59 (talk) 04:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Flowers? Useight (talk) 05:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Learn to speak a Romance language? Corvus cornix_talk 07:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Being romantic is a way of being, not something you do (although being that way automatically means there are things you do that you may not otherwise do. The difference is that you're doing them as a natural expression of yourself, rather than some add-on to make you seem occasionally romantic whenever you think your romance meter is approaching empty). What your wife probably means is that she has a need to be treated romantically, rather than telling you what you need to be. So it comes down to a question of working out what her needs are, and meeting them, as all good spouses do. Well done for taking the first step, though, and asking how you might go about this. That in itself could be viewed as a romantic thing. I hesitate to name any particular thing, but spouses love to receive pleasant and delightful surprises, when they're least expecting them (it doesn't have to be a big thing like a world trip); and to be shown attention, not for reasons such as you want to have sex; or you want to get into her good books after a dispute; but just because you want to show her that she's uppermost in your thoughts and is more important to you than anyone else in the world. Well, isn't she? Attention can be shown in many ways, starting with just smiling at her when she's watching TV, all the way to ....  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 07:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a novel concept, I know...but you could ask her what she thinks that is. A very good friend of mine once told me that the magic phrase for all such occasions with wives and girlfriends is: "So how does that make YOU feel?" Try it - it's very effective. SteveBaker (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

As JackofOz says, surprises that show you've been thinking about her and how happy she makes you work well. Pretty much anything that starts with "I was thinking about you today and I..." (ending with "got you that new scouring pad for the baked-on stains" might not work, but even then, it shows you care).

Also, poetry slays. Memorize "She walks in beauty like the night / of cloudless climes and starry skies..." and trot it out at appropriate times. Or try this gem from Shakespeare: "If I could write the beauty of your eyes / Or with fresh numbers number all your graces / The age to come would say this poet lies / Such heavenly touches never touch'd earthly faces" Franamax (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If I started spouting Shakespeare at my wife, she would laugh. Then she'd laugh harder. Then tears would roll down her cheeks. She might collapse in hysterics - certainly normal breathing would be difficult. Much, much later - she'd want to know who "the other woman" is. No Shakespeare. SteveBaker (talk) 04:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with the above - surprises are the key. It doesn't really matter what the surprise is (as long as it's something nice), but it needs to be a surprise. Flowers, dinner, a weekend break... --Tango (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Carefully planned spontenaity goes a long way. Steewi (talk) 23:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. For some strange reason, they consider it spontaneous even if they know perfectly well that it must have taken you weeks to plan... women... --Tango (talk) 01:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but the idea is to spontaneously think of some surprise for no particular reason other than that you love her, rather than waiting for her birthday or your anniversary to prompt you out of your unromantic slothfulness - and then, no matter how long it takes to organise, it's all still part of the spontaneity. Steve, it's all in how you do it. If you're sitting at the breakfast table buttering toast and discussing mundane affairs or the state of the world economy, and you suddenly blurt out "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate", no wonder she'd laugh. You've got to pick your time and place. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Romance isn't always the pure unadulterated truth... 'Shall I compare thee to a summer's day ? Thou art rather dull and cold, with damp patches expected later on towards the evening' ... Accurate(for a British summer day)? Yes? Romantic? Hmmm...Lemon martini (talk) 12:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It works better in Texas: 'Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art Hot...amazingly hot!' ...there are situations where that could work! SteveBaker (talk) 16:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Steve, do give it a try - and as noted, you have to pick your moments and be sincere. "If I could write the beauty of your eyes"... - maybe she'd collapse in laughter, but she would never ever forget it, she would tell her friends and family, she would remind you about it, and she would always remember that you did something silly just for her, and that you made the effort to memorize it and use it. Just - for - her. Silly and romantic are almost synonyms... Franamax (talk) 00:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Health from God's apothecary

Dear Sir - Madam.

I'm a new user and hope I'm in the right place to ask my question.

I have a book by Maria Treben, " Health from God's apothecary " in foreign language and so are the names of the plants but they also have names in Latin, like : acorus calamus, chalidonium maius, etc,my question is, where can I get translation of this Latin names of plants in to English. With Thanks, Vlad. --70.10.44.161 (talk) 08:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S Plesa explane why is the message on the screen telling me that I'm not loged-in, when I did log-in, is it a different log-in account for posting question ?

For many plants, just type in the name into wikipedia's search box. ("acorus calamus" takes you to Common Sweet Flag). Otherwise try Google - probably enclosing the name in quotes to ensure the name is searched for as a phrase. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The Royal horticultural society has a plant finder: here. Just type your search into the box at the bottom of the page. It is a very picky search, though. Doesn't forgive typos easily! Fribbler (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Technically - you probably don't want a "translation" of the latin names - mostly they aren't really even proper Latin. But as others have said - type the latin name into the Wikipedia search box and you're very likely to find it. If that doesn't get you there, try typing just one of the words - so "acorus calamus" happens to have it's own article - but if it had not, you'd still have found quite a bit of information by typing in just "acorus" - which is the "genus" of plants to which the acorus calamus belongs.

There is no special log-in for the reference desk - your regular Wikipedia account works for all of Wikipedia. You must simply have messed up your logging in somehow.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If I eat enough royal jelly will I turn into a bee?

Or will I start exhibiting bee-like symptoms, appearance and behaviour? Bradley10 (talk) 09:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No, don't be silly. Do you become a cow if you drink enough (cow's) milk? A bee is not a bee because of what it eats, it is a bee because that is what it is. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a valid comparison. Most people drink cows milk. No-one has ever eaten large quantities of royal jelly. Bradley10 (talk) 09:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see why. The point is obvious - is there any food stuff of which you know that when consumed makes that person more like the animal that produces that food-stuff? Not that i've ever heard of. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, there are foods that do that. Hamburgers for instance are made out of dead cows. The more you eat the more unhealthy you are and the closer you are to being dead—just like the cow. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well that seems patently untrue to me. If you are close to starvation, eating hamburgers could be quite beneficial, taking you farther away from death. Also, if you are referring to oxidative free radicals produced from eating meat as promoting your early death, they still do not promote an especially cow-like death, just a death due to cellular stress, much like your common or garden-variety fungus suffers equally. Did you have someting else in mind? Franamax (talk) 06:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's even more silly. "No-one has ever eaten...". Maybe you should try it though, give us a buzz when you have some results. Franamax (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

And even saying that "most people drink cows milk" is not correct. Drinking cow milk is only common among people who keep cows and is closely associated with the mutation in the lactase system that allows lactose tolerance into adulthood. The norm is actually lactose intolerance. Franamax (talk) 10:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

And besides...MOOOO! (Sorry, couldn't resist? Could this have waited for April Fools Day like my one about turning a frog into a prince medically?) Somebody or his brother (talk) 15:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I re-phrase the statement to read. "Many people eat cows milk. The price of royal jelly is approximately £500 for a 1lb jar, therefore I deduce it would take a rich and dedicated-to-the-investigation person to decide to consume a large quantity of royal jelly. To the best of my knowledge, especially given the complete absence of documented evidence for human-consumption-of-large-quantities-of-royal-jelly, it seems reasonable to assume that it hasn't been done." Bradley10 (talk) 11:11, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

To my certain knowledge, no-one has drunk cow's milk on 28 August 2008 (UTC). I'll keep you posted on whether it turns me into a cow or not. (and see inductive reasoning and problem of induction) Algebraist 11:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you would turn into a queen. APL (talk) 13:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand that too much royal jelly can cause hallucinations. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you thinking of a Roald Dahl story? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

And you need to shop at the discount royal jelly store instead of the high street. I can get royal jelly on the internet at $75 a kilo (further discount when you order 10 kg or more - hmm, maybe people do already eat a lot of it). Franamax (talk) 17:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• raises hand* uh, yes, i have a question. why is this query getting a valid argument? the answer is no. you are obviously a human. A simple food like jelly cannot alter DNA or other genetic material. Now if you asked if eating radioactive sludge would change you, that would be a different story. the juggresurection ^{(>-.-(Vಠ_ಠ)} 18:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless you count dying as a change (which I suppose I probably would), the answer would still be "no"! --Tango (talk) 01:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't tell anyone, but my alter-ego is Suffering-From-Acute-Radiation-Sickness-Man! AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Algebraist, we're still waiting for your report on the cow's milk experiment. Not so easy to type with hooves, is it? Franamax (talk) 00:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There were some issues for a while (as shown by the nine-hour gap in my contribs), but I was able to resolve them. Fortunately my country has no laws against cows gnawing on human flesh. Algebraist 00:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Complex searching for strange information..

I have a series of items that I am looking for, but I am having a great deal of difficulty finding the proper search combinations. My question for today involves a jigsaw puzzle I used to have, but it was destroyed. The puzzle was a fairly high piece count ~= 1000. The box was a tall box whose base was a right triangle. I know that the company/artist had a number of different puzzles like this. All of them were hand drawn in a cartoonish style. In my particular caae, the theme was skiing. The picture looked like a large poster of a mountainside with at least two to three hundred little cartoon peopl in it. They all wore hats, scarves and boots, but nothing in between. Their actions were typical of novice skiiers. One had run into a snowbank. Another had hit a tree. Some were going up in the lift. This picture, while playing with nudity for it's unusual effect, contained nothing that could be considered pornographic. One of the search criterion I have tried included ("jigsaw puzzle" skiing poster cartoon funny). I get way too many hits and I can't find the approach to thin the response tree. Please advise. OdditiesSearcher (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the puzzle you are looking for is not featured on any websites. I would say that was a distinct possibility, depending on how long ago you used to have it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Try searching for 'jigsaw cartoon skiing' came up with this in the first few(http://www.alljigsawpuzzles.co.uk/shopping/p56.htm). It's 1,000 pieces and has lots of cartoon skiiers on - not 200/300 though. Your best bet is trying to find 'artists' that made cartoon jigsaw puzzles (or their work appears on them) and then use google-images to try track down the artist to a skiing cartoon and go that way. At least that's the technique i'd employ. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If it helps, I remember this in the vague haziness of my childhood memories...It's coming back to me. I seen it on the wall of a pub in my home town (in poster, rather than jigsaw form) It was like a cross between a saucy British seaside postcard and a Where's Wally puzzle. I can't find it either, but I hold out hope if more than one of us has seen it. Fribbler (talk) 12:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I remember seeing puzzles in this style too, with the characteristic box shape, but I'm afraid I can't be more help than that. Are you in the UK, because that's where I saw it? the wub "?!" 12:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are looking for the works of Guillermo Mordillo, whose work I remember seeing as posters and jigsaws in the UK when I was a kid. If you go here and click on publications you might find what you are looking for. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes - I think it was the UK's Daily Telegraph's weekend magazine that published full-page cartoons from Mordillo - many of those seem to have been made into jigsaw puzzles because they tend to be extremely detailed. SteveBaker (talk) 16:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

INTERNET SCAMS IN GHANA!!

Hi everybody, Has anybody come across an internet scam that they use the Bank that a person banks at,but the scam account is opened in Ghana??No account of course exists. The scam goes like this: three people are involved,a lady contacts you,she says she is in the U.S. army,and it was her unit that was involved with finding Sadam Hussain.Her cut was millions of U.S. dollars,she is a colonel,and she has her Captain open an account in the persons name that they want to scam in Ghana.The account is opened in Accra Ghana.The third person in this scam contacts the person they want to scam,The Bank official with a title of (International remittance dept) to tell that person that the account is opened,but they cannot have access to the funds until they pay a few of a few hundred dollars,and send some I.D.,that fee should be made by a wire transfer to one of the scammers. How they got hold of the persons name,and knowledge that the person does actually bank at the named bank,but only in the U.S. not Ghana I don"t know. Signed:The wise owl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of these scams going around. Only thing to do is to bin them - unread.86.194.250.36 (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)DT

Advance-fee fraud. Fribbler (talk) 16:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Do not start discussions. The Reference Desk is not a chatroom. Malcolm XIV (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed the name of the bank from the header, since the bank has nothing to do with the scam. Corvus cornix_talk 18:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Mining

How I mine for fish? NeonMerlin 04:08, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

See Naval mine and Blast fishing. SteveBaker (talk) 04:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

better to trawl for them surely?--79.76.196.178 (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

First, you find yourself a big ol' mountain. If you find fish scales around the mountain, you know you got yourself a fish mountain! Start climbing the fish mountain (you will notice fish parts strewn about the ground as you ascend), and once you have reached about two thirds the height of the mountain, start diggin'! You'll be knee deep in fish in no time. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Spare monies for a noob. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice catch Gandalf. We're so damn innocent here. "Just shut up". Franamax (talk) 02:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You could just telephone them with an old hand cranked telephone magneto and ask them to come to the surface. That has worked well (but illegally in many jurisdictions). Edison2 (talk) 05:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Help

I have recently found out about an Australian store that sells old games called GameTraders. But I want to know their e-mail address. What is it? February 15, 2009 (talk) 08:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

fixed link - Tagishsimon (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Various of the stores have email addresses cites here. I think that's the best you'll do. --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant the "generic" e-mail address, because I want them to construct a store in my home town. February 15, 2009 (talk) 08:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Email the first shop and ask them that question (i.e. what is the email of your corporate people). --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by the "first" shop? February 15, 2009 (talk) 08:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think he just means the first one on the list he linked to. The point is, it doesn't matter which shop you email. Any one of them should be able to give you the "generic" email address. Alternatively, you could write them a letter (remember those?) at the "Operations Centre" address given. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

←I think the way to actually do this would be to call the main number of the "operations centre", and tell them that you would like to propose a franchise, and ask for the best person to contact, and get his/her email. If you end up talking to this person on the phone, just say that you know that their time is valuable and that you'd like to send them some information by email about why your town would be a great place for one of their stores. I think it's not very likely that they will want to open a store in your town unless they can get a franchisee to pay for the store—that's the way this kind of operation tends to work. If you sell it well, though, they might propose it to a store owner in a nearby location (I understand Australia's a rather large place and "nearby" means something different there than it does in, say, Singapore), who might have a look at it and decide to expand in your direction. Good luck. Darkspots (talk) 10:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, good luck. They should be glad that you're taking such an interest in their endeavor. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this really a reference desk question? DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't obviously fail Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines#What the reference desk is not. How is it not a reference desk question from your point of view? Darkspots (talk) 15:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The site happens to have a page on franchising. It doesn't give a e-mail, but it has an address and a phone number. By the way, did you happen to get this inspiration from a certain Ben Croshaw? Paragon¹²³²¹ 04:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"Choice listings" on eBay

I know I should contact eBay customer support about this, but talking to them is like wading through treacle, so I thought I'd give it a shot here. I had a listing cancelled because it allowed the buyer to choose from a selection of items (i.e. the winning bidder gets to choose any 10 items from a total of 100, for example). Their policy is apparently that such listings are not allowed "because of the potential for fee circumvention due to the item agreed upon being negotiated offline, transactions taking place outside of eBay and other issues" (quote from their "help" pages). I have no idea what this means and wonder if anyone else can make sense of it. How am I attempting to circumvent their fees? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're not, but you could be. You could be adding extra charges to some items, for example. Of course, it's really no different from doing so with any other item ("Actually, I'm gonna want an extra ten bucks before I send this to you."), but anyway. I think eBay has a vested interest in keeping all transactions like this within their domain, so to speak. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for daughter's birthday

It's our daughter's 12th birthday coming in a few weeks or so. She's a good kid-like her brothers and sisters she works hard at school and goes out of her way to help at home,and so at Christmas and birthdays they're pretty much allowed to choose what they want to do and anything goes. She's decided she wants her party to be fancy dress-it's just what to wear. She wants the costumes to be something nice for the boys to look at-short skirts, tight tops and showing off her chest. So we need a theme that lets her do that whilst actually getting anyone into any trouble. Whilst we're very broadminded as to what they wear(and they will be supervised) ,it might not go down too well with other parents if they're running round completely naked. We've got a few ideas on the table-60s with the girls in miniskirts or pool party so she can wear her swimsuit (or she did suggest borrowing little sister's as it's smaller!) Any more ideas to help our party go well and keep everyone happy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.252.37 (talk) 10:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"Short skirts, tight tops, showing off her chest" is not what everyone would regard as "fancy dress." You knew that when you posted. Twelve-year-old boys generally aren't very interested in girls, and any attention they do pay would result from the oddity of the costume or their curiosity/unease regarding the twelve-year-old chest, not from any regard for your daughter. It's possible that by abdicating your responsibility as a parent to help your child develop a sense of self-worth independent from the pressures of trashy "fashion," you're signing up for an adolescence filled with confrontation. On the other hand, you won't take my opinion any more seriously than I take your question. — OtherDave (talk) 10:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Although I did rather like the suggestion in your comment that perhaps they'd like to dress up as trolls. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I was certainly interested in girls when I was 12...they didn't have much to show off yet but that didn't seem to matter. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

How about the 80's? That's a broad enough theme that its up to them as to how revealing they want to look. --Candy-Panda (talk) 11:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Gotta agree with OtherDave, you do have to lay some ground rules. I would ask, why does she want to show her belly like that? If it's becuase "everyone does it," you should be showing her that she needs to take pride in herself, and the real her is what's inside, not what's on the outside. After all, I know it's corny, but I always tell the adolescents I work with, "What really matters is that a couple like each other with they're old, bald, and all wrinkled up like a prune."

That said, a pool party does give the right idea, and if you can find a good indoor pool it should work. (Unless it's warme nough where you live to still do it outdoors.) Perhaps it could be a broader Olympic theme - with Michael Phelps having made swimming so big, perhaps you could have some fun competitions. that would let the boys get a little silly (when I was 12, my firends and I liked to do funny dives - perhaps a contest for most recative among boys and girls?) and let everyone have fun without having the full attention paid to the skin. Indeed, you and your daugvhter could, if money isn't much of an object, buy some plain bathing suits for everyone and design them to represent real or fictional countries' Olympic teams. Somebody or his brother (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to be a spoilsport but wouldn't this question be better at some chat room somewhere? DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably, but we frequently answer questions that aren’t precisely source oriented, I guess one more won’t hurt. At least it’s not something like “wHy eXActily is OBAMa suchg an idut?” :) --S.dedalus (talk) 22:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I hate to be a suspicious old fart, but this message sounds more like someone hoping we'll discuss fun things to do with children dressed provocatively than like a message from a parent to me. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

As I cannot imagine any responsible parent encouraging a 12-year-old girl in "showing off her chest", or, indeed, in creating a social occasion just for that purpose, I have to agree with FisherQueen. If this isn't trolling, then the parent should be reported for child abuse. This is really quite disturbing. ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I can imagine a 12-year-old girl wanted to have a "grown up" birthday party, and some parents have difficulty saying "no". --Tango (talk) 03:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

All valid points, however the only immediate question is shall we revert this and continue this discussion on the talk page, or leave it and get back on tapic? --S.dedalus (talk) 05:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to AGF here and assume this is a genuine question-I know for sure that just walking through town on a Saturday night I can walk past half-a-dozen 12 and 13 year olds each night who are wearing practically nothing(and usually smoking and drinking)-perhaps this is a parent saying 'you're not going out dressed like that every night,but maybe for a special occasion as a one off it will be OK' which at least seems to be an improvement. And certainly when I was 11,the girls spent quite a bit of time in the playground making themselves look nice for the boys,and as for the boys-well every game of truth or dare seemed had 'lift up your skirt' or 'take off your top' as a dare. How about tennis party?Girlies can wear tennis skirts which some girls will no doubt hoick up to around their waist,and probably undo a few buttons too.Water fight(especially in summer)is a good way to cool down and also get everyone very wet in the process.I might advise swimsuits otherwise it could turn out like a wet t-shirt competition. Lemon martini (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The flu

How do you know when you are over the flu? Like you stop feeling sick but how long are you contagious for? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Our article on influenza states that:

People who contract influenza are most infective between the second and third days after infection and infectivity lasts for around ten days.[reference 82 of influenza article] Children are notably more infectious than adults and shed virus from just before they develop symptoms until two weeks after infection.[references 82 & 83 of influenza article]

AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Room prices-more for less?

Off on holiday, perusing through the hotel brochures deciding where to stay, I noticed that one hotel offered a room by itself for £89 a night . Fair enough. But if I have the room and breakfast it was only £78. If I have the room, breakfast and three-course dinner in the evening, it drops to £52 a night. I can't work out why this should be-how come I am paying less for more facilities? Lemon martini (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I would assume they've simply made a mistake, and suggest you email them to ask. Some hotels do offer cheap room rates if you agree to pay (extra) for dinner at their expensive restaurant.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I can see how trying to keep you in the hotel for your evening meal (by throwing in the meal free) would make sense as it could result in increased wine/drinks sales and my understanding is that's the biggest area of profit in many restaurants. The cheaper 'with' breakfast is a bit odd though, as I don't see a huge lead-on of extra sales from breakfast (though maybe that's why i'm not in sales and marketing!) ny156uk (talk) 22:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you identlfy the hotel and location? I might be interested. ៛ Bielle (talk) 23:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I also would like to see further details. There must be a further fixed charge for meals, otherwise you could go to the dining room and ask for their finest bread-sticks and tap-water.

Another tip to keep in mind - depending on the timing of charges for guaranteed reservations, it's sometimes worthwhile to get to the hotel early, walk up to the desk and ask for their room rate. Depending on their bookings, they may offer a very good rate for walk-in business; and even then don't be afraid to ask "can you do better than that?" Then you go up to your room and use your cellphone (mobile for you Brits) to call down and cancel your reservation. Franamax (talk) 00:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly-it's the Imperial in Barnstaple,England. I have the leaflet with the prices at home.I'll study it more closely to make sure there's no small print, but there were definitely three prices given for room, room with breakfast and room with dinner and they went down... Lemon martini (talk) 10:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Starting Rates page for the Imperial. If we head over to the Maths desk, somebody might be able to quickly calculate the large number of possible rates for any given date -- there are several room categories, and the rate per person per night drops for longer stays, and there are options for room only, bed and breakfast, and half board. Then we can throw in the seasonal variations and the special breaks which may be on offer for even more possibilities, meaning the answer to the original question can only be "forty two." --LarryMac | Talk 12:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How common was it for the United States Census to miss people in 1900?

In doing some research on my famiy, I've discovered that they were apparently missed in the 1900 Census. I know from faily history things were quite busy then and they could have just never been home, but how often did this happen back then, when the census takers often just went door to door?

Some background - they parents and perhaps a couple of the children were immigrants, but we have the Ellis Island certificate from 1892, family history stating one son was born in 1894 and was injured in an X-ray accident in 1899. (Yes, they happened, if not calibrated right they could burn you badly.) So they were in the home town I searched for, and they're there in 1910. They don't seem to have been anywhere in the state in 1900, though. And yes, I checked the numerous alternate spellings. Thanks in advance.Somebody or his brother (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Our article on the US Census says that there was a fire in 1921 that destroyed some number of records...maybe thats where the data was lost? SteveBaker (talk) 15:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In the excerpt under the Google listing for this site, I saw an estimate of a 6.7% undercount in the 1900 census. 1900 United States Census says the population was 76,212,168. — OtherDave (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

My grandfather is listed as a girl in the 1930 census, so they certainly made mistakes. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The part about injury from xray in 1899 is interesting. See Clarence Madison Dally, an article about one of Thomas Edison's assistants in xray experiments who tested each xray machine in the late 1890's on himself. They had no idea that xrays were harmful in the early days, until tragedies such as the death of Dalley occurred. Dalley was not alone as an early victim of radiation. As for errors in earlky census, the census taker was not paid much and I see many cases where they apparently took data from neighbors or help about a family they could not reach, because of gross errors of name, age and origin. Some people clearly did not wish to be enumerated. Some people probably had let it be known they would kill any government agents who came on their property. Edison2 (talk) 05:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

On the Road

I'm trying to get to New York inexspensively by the morning of the 6th of September. Anyone know the best(cheapest) way to do that other than hitchhiking? Elatanatari (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Where are you now? Algebraist 23:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Detroit, sorry Elatanatari (talk) 00:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

If you really want the cheapest, you can cycle it for free. Algebraist 00:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I have tooo much luggage for biking, and I dont think I have the stamina to travel fast enough to arrive by the 6th.Elatanatari (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Check the Amtrack, they have stations on jersey and new york city. Nick910 (talk) 00:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

623 miles according to Google Maps. Go through London, St Catharines, Buffalo, the outskirts of Scranton. Google Maps claims you can walk it in that time. This is obviously some new meaning of "walk" with which I am as yet unacquainted. --Trovatore (talk) 00:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It's about $100 on Greyhound; Amtrak starts about there and goes to about $150. But if I was really wanting cheap, I'd find a ride board somewhere -- any college has 'em -- and see what I could do for gas share. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Take a good book to read on the way. Something by Jack Kerouac (no relation) might fit the bill. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is $79.50 on Greyhound with an advanced purchase ticket. The bus trip involves traveling overnight, no matter what time of day you leave, though you could probably break the journey in Pittsburgh and book a room for the night if you don't like trying to sleep on buses, but that would increase the cost considerably. Marco polo (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't need sleep, food, or water, just transportation in time. and I think I'm starting to reconsider hitchhiking. I'm having a terrible time with the amtrak website. I'm also consulting my friends on books, I have a 20 hr flight going out of JFK. Where could I find a ride board? On any college bulletin board? Elatanatari (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't need sleep, food or water? Impressive... --Tango (talk) 03:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You can probably find a ride board on Craig's List. --LarryMac | Talk 12:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It would seem Google isn't aware of the need for sleep on journeys longer than a day! --Tango (talk) 03:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Races

It is said of the rat race that even if you win, you're still a rat. Does the human race have the same problem? NeonMerlin 02:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really. Rat race describes a competition that can be won. Human race describes a species, not a competition that can be won. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Who says being a rat is a problem? Rats seem quite happy being rats. --Tango (talk) 02:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How can you tell they're happy? NeonMerlin 02:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

They seem pretty playful (pet ones, anyway). Playful would suggest happy, to me. --Tango (talk) 03:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Conception dreams

Hi, conception dreams are dreams that foretell a baby's birth (or so they say). The belief is found in Korea, that's for sure, but are there any other cultures where people have such dreams? Thanks. --Kjoonlee 07:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, our (terribly sparse) article says, "The belief that a dream will foretell a baby's birth originates from China, and is found in some East Asian countries." So, yeah, apparently so. Seems that the Australian Aborigines also had some pretty similar beliefs, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear of others. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, yeah, I wanted to ask about cultures besides Asian ones. Thanks. :) --Kjoonlee 09:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Exercise / Drink

If you do more exercise, is it okay to drink more? After a day of hard physical work there is often the temptation to go drinking rather than a day of easy non-physical work. Does the exercise counterbalance the increase in boozing? Bradley10 (talk) 12:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sleeping with an owl in the small of your back

I was reading a book which claimed to be factual - in it the author claimed that whilst nursing an injured little owl back to health, the owl would often scuttle into bed with her and sleep curled up in the small of her back. Is this safe? Is this advisable? If I get an owl, can I sleep with it in the small of my back? Bradley10 (talk) 12:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Buying Synthetic Diamons and Other Precious Stones as an Individual

Hello,

I'm looking to buy a synthetic diamond or other precious stone for my wife. I have a jeweler who will sent the stone in a ring that we already have.

The problem is that as an individual, I can't find any places on the 'net that will actually sell a stone to me. I can only find companies that sell stones in bulk to other businesses. Can anyone help me find a company that will sell a synthetic diamond to an individual?

Thank you for any help,

--Grey1618 (talk) 13:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)