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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.222.133.115 (talk) at 03:20, 18 August 2013 (→‎Edit request on 18 August 2013: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeThe Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 9, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 19, 2006Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
November 16, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
October 3, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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Hi all, i am asking for a refer-help. I am living in germany und looking for the catalogue for this exposition:

  • “Portraits of Our Past: The Sephardic Communities of Greece and the Holocaust”

in the Holocaust Memorial and Tolerance Center of Nassau County

Link: holocaust-nassau.org, Ort: Welwyn Preserve, 100 Crescent Beach Road

Is there any collection of the pictures? a.s.o.

Thanks for helping - Danke für evtl. Hilfe --asdfj, 09:59 CEST, 2013, June 3rd--

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 07:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Holocaust → Holocaust – This issue has been discussed in years past, but consensus can change. I don't think there can be any doubt that this title fails the second criterion of WP:THE—the definite article isn't capitalized in running text. While it's technically true that the presence or absence of the definite article can change the meaning (Nazi extermination of Jews vs. other events referred to as holocaust), the capitalization difference is more important. And tellingly, there's no conflict that would lead to separate articles, such as crown and The Crown (the example used at WP:THE) or pentagon and The Pentagon. However we title it, the Holocaust is the overwhelming WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "holocaust." Just ask Google (holocaust -wikipedia). Indeed, the term without the definite article already redirects here. When in doubt, we don't use "the." Just look at the examples. Renaissance is an especially appropriate case. BDD (talk) 21:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Follow-up discussion about a hasty decision

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. There is a rough but clear consensus to revert. Andrewa (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust → The Holocaust – I'm listing this at RM again, per request and comments below. (Please note that the stable title before the recent move was The Holocaust, so that should probably be considered the default choice if this results in no consensus.) Jafeluv (talk) 09:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above decision needs to be reversed for the following reasons:

  1. Context is everything in the use of words and in language. And it is a great shame that this is now not recognized because any time this particular event is referred to as a stand-alone topic it is as "The Holocaust" and not just "Holocaust" which while used in other contexts such as in "Holocaust denial" it is never used as just plain "Holocaust" when referred to or introduced as a notorious event in history. While WP may have some minor language rules, they cannot displace the way this phenomenon is correctly referred to in academia and common language alike since 1945 unchanged.
  2. Considering that this topic has had the title The Holocaust (with Holocaust redirecting to The Holocaust and not the other way around) since 2001 for almost 12 years [1] that in and of itself bespeaks an incredible long-term, long-standing and undisputed accepted WP:CONSENSUS with hundreds of editors (all very familiar with the English language) contributing to this lead article as well as to the many hundreds that have spring up from it working and accepting the name "The Holocaust" and NOT just plain "Holocaust".
  3. The hastiness and carelessness of the above change can be seen from the fact that the title The Holocaust has been the lead article for hundreds of WP:CATEGORIES that all start with the name "The Holocaust" and not just "Holocaust" see Category:The Holocaust and see examples such as Category:The Holocaust by country. Why were those dozens if not hundreds of categories not challenged and changed in WP:CFDs as well??? Maybe because they will look ludicrous since everyone knows that in many contexts "The Holocaust" is not called "Holocaust" as if referring to someone/some thing only by one truncated name, since in this case the use of "The" has ALSO become part of the way this two worded proper-noun is commonly used!
  4. It is therefore incredible, actually inconceivable, and in fact essentially very rude, and a clear violation of WP:ETIQUETTE, that within one week, half a dozen random editors can pass judgment on so awesome a long-standing topic basing themselves on some flimsy misapplication latter-day WP rules from styles of writing and grammar. At least for heavens' sake give the matter more time.
  5. Certainly there should have been an appeal to some expert editors at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Judaism#Proposals; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/History#Proposals; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Europe and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Europe#Proposals; none of which were either notified, informed or asked to comment. (5 of the prior forums have now been notified: [2]; [3]; [4]; [5]; [6]).

The nominator is kindly asked to reverse his hasty proposal until such time as thorough discussions have been held, and asking for neutral admin help in reversing the decision that would have required far longer and more in-depth and fuller discussion for such a sweeping change for a such a serious topic's title. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

--
Your arrogance is rather tedious. The bit about the categories is irrelevant, since they surely follow from the name of the article. They need to be changed, but your argument is putting the cart before the horse.

Why aren't you arguing analogously for Holodomor to The Holodomor etc.?

"for almost 12 years..."
Is there a certain cut off after which articles can no longer be renamed? If so, when is it? One year? two? five?

"it is never used as just plain 'Holocaust'..."
You don't know what you're talking about, and your use of the word never makes it especially easy for me, since I only need one counterexample to secure victory. Here are four, though there are plenty more:
1 – 2 – 3 – 4

Thank you, LudicrousTripe (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Holocaust" and "The Holocaust" are two different things, as the article explains. "Holocaust" was and still is used in English for catastrophs, mainly those caused by fire (see e.g. the incident about Donald Duck shouting "Holocaust" in the German version of one of the comic books). "The Holocaust" on the other hand only means the genocide of the Jews (and possible other peoples) by the Germans and their helpers during the Nazi regime. "The Holocaust" would imo be the proper lemma here. --Ajnem (talk) 08:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC) P.S. I can't say that I'm particularly happy about the tone LudicrousTripe has chosen.[reply]

To User LudicrousTripe (talk · contribs): 1 Kindly observe WP:AGF and WP:NPA. 2 There are zillions of books that go in all sorts of directions and prove very little. Of the 4 books you cite, some are based on foreign (non-English) languages, one from psychology and they prove nothing, just that one can use words in telegramatic style. 3 The common style used by the Jewish people, the main victims of "The Holocaust" and NOT "Holocaust" remains "The Holocaust" in English worldwide. 4 The problem is that the word "holocaust" is just a word, see holocaust (wiktionary) not necessarily related to any particular historical event/s while the phrase "The Holocaust" is known to refer to the genocide of the European Jews by the Nazis during WWII. 5 Unlike The French Revolution that can easily be cut down to French Revolution because it is clear what the subject is i.e. about the French, same for The Industrial Revolution" it can be "Industrial Revolution" but when one says "holocaust" and WP throws that up to the world as the the "main word" in an article it is not clear because who is to say which and what "holocaust" is being referred to? While the word "The" makes it very specific. 6 There are many holocausts, including the word itself, such as in Holocaust (disambiguation). What is to stop the next "move" of making Holocaust into "Holocaust (Jewish)" or "Holocaust (Nazi)" and then you can add a string of holocausts violating all the laws of Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day. 7 As for your other citations, "Holodomor" is not the subject here. You are throwing in red herrings. It is for those who know about those events to decide, and not for WP editors to make such decisions. 8 The real problem is that there is a factor called Holocaust denial, as well as Antisemitism in the world that caused the Holocaust. 9 So this is a real landmine and it's surprising that people jump to make quick changes here and not expect to be challenged and please note that the word "Holocaust" goes with the word "denial" such that "Holocaust denial" is the polar opposite of "The Holocaust" and whenever changes and truncations take place all the antennae go up. 10 Of course 10+ years is significant. The editors who worked on this article for all those years are not idiots and must be assumed to be well-informed because they produced such a prodigious body of truly encyclopedic work. It is just self-respect for WP to respect all those editors who came before us. Be sensible and it is wise to remember not to induce changes quickly in highly contentious and controversial topics. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 09:17, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, IZAK, you are not doing yourself or anybody who agrees with you a favor by linking users who prefer the lemma Holocaust to The Holocaust to Holocaust deniers and Antisemites. One can disagree with you and argue against lemmata with the article The without being a villain. Cheers, --Ajnem (talk) 10:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Ajnem on the immediately preceding. However, I have to say that I find this move to be pretty disappointing. I appreciate that LudicrousTripe (talk · contribs) found book title examples supporting a position. But in each of those examples, the word appears in a context that makes its reference to the Nazi-era Holocaust apparent. I would challenge you to find places where "Holocaust" is used on its own other than (a) within that kind of context, or (b) functioning as as an attributive (adjective). Out here, on its own, by itself in search engines, it is surely The Holocaust.
I have to add that I get frustrated a bit when people invoke WP:MOS rules like WP:THE to change things that otherwise function very well and very clearly, as this title surely has over 12 years. I can invoke other rules as well, like WP:COMMONNAME. I do wonder whether WP:TITLECHANGES was considered: "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." Do you actually believe that The was a good reason to change it? Really? That kind of style violation is that egregious? I'm sorry; I'm not buying. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term with the article is the almost universally used term., as far as I can tell, and is much clearer as meaning the specific historical event. Izak asked me, and rather than just giving my own opinion I checked with people involved in the RW editing of subjects involving this. The MOS is not a straight-jacket. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revert to The Holocaust per most of what IZAK posted. Even one of his points is enough. The article is about The Holocaust, not a dictionary article about holocausts'. --Shuki (talk) 20:44, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revert to "The Holocaust". "The Holocaust" does fit the principle of WP:THE in the sense of "official or commonly used proper name..." I find that almost all common uses include "The" or "the"; LudicrousTripe's four examples are from book titles—which are non-common usages, book titles being contrived as clever or dramatic, purposely non-standard word usages. RCraig09 (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would argue for reverting back to "The Holocaust", which is the generally used reference for the material that we find in this article. The title of an article suggests its scope. I don't think we should tinker with the title of this article in this way unless our intention is to alter the scope of this article. Is our intention, in the title change, to alter the scope of this article? Bus stop (talk) 05:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose a move per WP:THE and general linguistic usage. I don't deny that the definite article is usually used with "Holocaust". It is also used with Holodomor, Rwandan Genocide, Porajmos and other similar articles, too. It is also used with Rocky Mountains, Cultural Revolution, Renaissance, and no doubt thousands of other terms. However, like these other examples, "Holocaust" does not meet the two main criteria of WP:THE. The first is that the name with and without the article have different meanings. While this may have been the case decades ago, the fact that "Holocaust" (without an article) redirected to The Holocaust for all of those years shows the two are synonymous. The second criteria is that the article would be capitalised in running text. This is also not the case with the Holocaust. In short, there is no meaningful difference between the examples above and the Holocaust. —  AjaxSmack  05:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snowball revert. "The Holocaust" without a modifier has always been about the genocide of Jews, Roma/Sinti etc by the Axis powers in WW2. Any attempt to change it is a violation of WP:NC. JFW | T@lk 16:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revert The consistent use of the definite article to distinguish this specific tragedy is fully consistent with WP:THE. As discussed with the closing admin regarding the rename, I am also deeply concerned by the decision to change the title of an article with this kind of visibility with such a small number of participants. The overwhelming opposition demonstrated here is indicative of broader community opinion on the subject. Alansohn (talk) 04:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Possible technical errors

When performing this move I received an error message which said that Wikipedia was "unavailable" and to try again later. But an immediate retry failed as the move had already occurred. I then poked around to see exactly what had failed, and so far have found nothing.

Unfortunately I didn't record the exact message. I just wanted to say that if you do find a problem, this may be the cause of it, and I'd appreciate a heads-up on my talk page. Andrewa (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disconnect between the first request and the follow-up revert request

  • It is interesting that the initial request with discussants who are primarily disinterested in the topic was unanimously in favour of "Holocaust" while the subsequent discussion where various interested parties were notified is overwhelmingly in favour of "The Holocaust". I hope the closer and other users will consider that titles should reflect community consensus as reflected in policies and guidelines and not narrow interests of specific user groups. See WP:Yogurt Principle for more on this. —  AjaxSmack  00:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will find that 'community consensus' is that such decisions should be made based on actual understanding of the subject matter. As for supposed 'narrow interests of specific user groups', would you care to enlighten us as to exactly whom you are referring to? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply by the closer: It's a very interesting example, for many reasons including those you raise. But discussion of this Yoghurt Principle, and the precise meaning of consensus, is ongoing. See also WP:consensus can change, which I note is policy, while the Yoghurt Principle is a controversial proposal in user space. As the Yoghurt Principle seems to support stricter adherence to policy, to quote it as a reason for ignoring policy seems somewhat ironic and not at all logical. Andrewa (talk) 19:51, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Holodomor vs Holocaust

The Holodomor needs to be compaired with the Holocaust.

The Holodomor, or Hunger plague, was a famine engineered by the Soviet Union as part of a series of actions, including mass executions, designed to destroy the Ukrainian nation. Census data reveal a shortfall of 11,000, 000 in the Ukrainian population by 1937. Before and during 1937 large numbers of Ukrainians would be executed in the Great Terror which, although all the Soviet Union was affected, had a specifically Ukrainian dimension. http://www.holodomor.org.uk/

The Secret Behind Communism! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WrieUdYe_e8

The Holodomor was a massive famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, a constituent union republic of the Soviet Union that took the lives of between 7 and 10 million people. Some communists, like the Swedish Communist Party, still deny that it ever happened. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holodomor

Holocaust denial vs Holodomor denial needs to be investigated and reported on.

Wikipedia is censored by Holodomor denialists, as it will try to delete and remove this talk and all references to the Holodomor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.215.50.108 (talk • contribs)

Holodomor is a valid article and should be discussed there. Holocaust is a separate article on a separate genocidal event. Please confine your discussion at this talkpage to improvement of the Holocaust article. Acroterion (talk) 03:00, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The Holodomor needs to be compaired with the Holocaust." Maybe you can do this on the Holodomor page. A comparison would be useful if there is someone who is knowledgeable about both events. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any comparisons would need to be based on appropriate published sources, and inclusion would require evidence that undue weight wasn't being attached to particular perspectives. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Would adding Holodomor to the Holocaust (disambiguation) page under "See also" solve, or at least help, the perceived problem in an appropriate way? Just a suggestion. RCraig09 (talk) 11:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, because dismbiguation pages are for articles one might be looking up using a particular search term. No-one would type in "holocaust" looking for Holodomor. It is not a list articles on mass killings over history. Paul B (talk) 13:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further thought, given the broad general definition of holocaust (example: "2. The annihilation or near-annihilation of a group of animals or people, whether by natural or deliberate agency"), the disambiguation page's "See also" section seems an appropriate location for Holodomor for readers searching for holocausts in general. I'm adding it to the disambiguation page and will continue discussion there if needed. — RCraig09 (talk) 16:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 12 July 2013

Search "Jewdaism" should redirect to "Judaism" not "Holocaust" 216.165.126.103 (talk) 22:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done What an odd redirect. GabrielF (talk) 22:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Vandals think they're clever. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 22:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 17 August 2013

It is said that the number of Jewish Holocaust victims is 6,000,000. This number cannot be correct for the following reasons: 4,000,000 of the 6,000,000 Jews were supposed to have been killed in Auschwitz alone. However, the official number of Auschwitz victims is not 4,000,000 anymore but 960,000. Franciszec Piper, director of the historical committee of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum, said that according to recent research, 960,000 Jews died there. (The commemoration plaque that indicated that 4,000,000 Jews died has been replaced with the accurate numbers.) Other Auschwitz victims included, according to Francicizec Piper, approximately 74,000 Poles, 21,000 Roma(Gypsies,and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war; and 10,000- 15,000 members of other nationalities (Soviet civilians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, French, German, and Austrians). Also, the official numbers of Holocaust victims who were supposed to have perished in the the concentration camp Buchenwald is now 30,000 and not 300,000 as it was claimed before. This means that the number of 6,000,000 Jews who died during the Holocaust is not correct anymore since it included the 4,000,000 of Auschwitz and the 300,000 from Buchenwald. Subtract 3,040,000 from the Auschwitz death toll and 270,000 from the Buchenwald death toll from the 6,000,000 and the correct number is 2,690,000 and not 6,000,000.

24.222.133.115 (talk) 20:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Our article is based on published reliable sources. You cite none whatsoever. Unless and until the consensus amongst academic historians changes (which seems unlikely, given the degree to which the Holocaust was documented) we will report what they have determined - that around 6 million Jews were systematically murdered in the Holocaust. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 18 August 2013

As requested, here is the source for the reduced numbers of deaths in Auschwitz: “Auschwitz: The Final Count” by Vivian Bird (anthology). Again, if 6,000,000 Jews died in concentration camps and the 4,000,000 deaths from Auschwitz are included in that number, then the final number of deaths during the Holocaust cannot remain at 6,000,000! The same is true for the revised number of deaths in Buchenwald from 300.000 to 30,000. Source for Buchenwald revised numbers will be provided in my next post.

Barnes Book Review of Vivian Bird's anthology: Auschwitz: The Final Count

"On April 18, 1945, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, The New York Times reported that 4 million people died at Auschwitz. This “fact” was reported over and over again during the next half-century, without being questioned.

However, on January 26, 1995, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation, both The Washington Post and The New York Times itself reported that the Polish authorities had determined that, at most, 1.5 million people (of all races and religions)-not “4 million”-died at Auschwitz of all causes, including natural causes.

Yet this was not the first time this drastically reduced figure appeared in the major media. Almost five years previously, on July 17, 1990, The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph. That article stated: Poland has cut its estimate of the number of people killed by the Nazis in the Auschwitz death camp from 4 million to just over 1 million . . . The new study could rekindle the controversy over the scale of Hitler’s “final solution” . . .

Franciszek Piper, director of the historical committee of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum, said yesterday that, according to recent research, at least 1.3 million people were deported to the camp, of whom about 223,000 survived. The 1.1 million victims included 960,000 Jews, between 70,000 and 75,000 Poles, nearly all of the 23,000 Gypsies sent to the camp and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war.

Shmuel Krakowsky, head of research at Israel’s Yad Vashem memorial for Jewish victims of the Holocaust, said the new Polish figures were correct: “The 4 million figure was let slip by Capt. Rudolf Hoess, the death camp’s Nazi commander. Some have bought it, but it was exaggerated.” . . . [P]laques commemorating the deaths of 4 million victims were removed from the Auschwitz museum earlier this month.

This detail of history was intriguing, since, after all, history books had said for a generation that of the 6 million Jews who died during the Holocaust, 4 million died at Auschwitz alone. Thus, if the new facts were correct, the actual overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims had to be considerably less than the much-talked-about figure of 6 million. Put simply: subtract the former 4 million Jews dead at Auschwitz from the popular 6 million, and that leaves 2 million Jews dead. Simple math-and a controversial conclusion indeed.

The book features a fascinating introduction by Bird exploring the little-known but thoroughly documented phenomenon in which the numbers of the official Auschwitz “death toll” have plummeted from a “high” of 9,000,000 dead to a rock bottom of 73,137 (of whom 38,031 were Jews). And readers will note that of the 26 widely varying figures cited by Bird, all come from a variety of “responsible” and mainstream sources."



24.222.133.115 (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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