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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Machinesmith (talk | contribs) at 14:52, 10 June 2014 (→‎GameSpot broken references issue resolved). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Replacing to do with announcements

I've been working on a replacement for the to do box that graces the top of our pages because I find it kind of ugly. I modified a version of the MILHIST announcements board (and sprung a new template in the process). I think this gives us some room to grow and is generally a better template for this stuff. Also you'll notice that I have two different listings for GANs—that's because I tried two different methods of adding GANs: the current manual system of adding commas or bullets between items, or the flatlist system of making a bulleted list that is converted into a nice listing. I think the latter is a little nicer and much easier to update, but the trade-off is that the bullets are a little less bold. I'm looking for your feedback on this. You can see how the list would be updated in either format by editing {{WPVG announcements}} (as you would Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/to do). And voilà:

My question: Are y'all interested in using this as a replacement for "to do" in the {{WPVG}} banner? Open to feedback, czar ♔ 01:01, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In either case I've modified Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Good content to use the GAN link template. I like the new format, and I support the flatlist. Any reason why the FACs aren't using an FAC link template as well? --PresN 01:53, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since I was making it from scratch, wanted to test it and get feedback before making the rest—done czar ♔ 04:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's better this way. Tezero (talk) 04:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It looks great. My only concern is that it might not look as good condensed inside {{WPVG}}. Otherwise, go for it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All right—it's up. I did some fancy stuff to make it play nice with the banner, so I think you'll like it, Jimmy. As for this page, are there any thoughts on removing the project banner up top (wasn't it added only somewhat recently?) and just having the announcements in its stead? It's a lot of wasted space for a high traffic page . czar ♔ 15:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. It's a huge improvement. And yeah, I'd agree with removing the banner and replacing it with announcements. I always thought it was kind of strange to have both of them up there. MILHIST only has announcements on their talk page, so it should be fine. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, remove the pointless "This is a Wikiproject" banner. - hahnchen 11:17, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PresN recently boldly went ahead with this. Would there be any opposition to using an arrangement similar to the mock-up currently in my sandbox? czar ♔ 22:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC) To clarify, that would be using {{WPVG sidebar}}, which includes the shortcut and archives box templates czar ♔ 06:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I boldly agree with this. --PresN 23:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I boldly merged all the header stuff (besides the archive bot setup params) into "/header" and merged the archives and shortcut templates into a new {{WPVG sidebar}}, which displays neater and cleaner (and, if wanted, can replace the normal sidebar transclusion on the other pages. Anyway, I think it's a definite improvement, but I've only done it for this page, so if anyone objects we can discuss it here czar ♔ 14:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sega-16.com

Most Sega-related articles seem to use this site, I've used it myself, part of me wishes it were reliable, and it would take some work to remove all references to it; but I just don't feel good about Sega-16.com. I accept that Ken Horowitz is a published journalist, and maybe my judgement is affected by my personal opinion that most of the articles on the site are horribly written and poorly informed, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Horowitz fact-checks any of his work or that of his staff (none of whom have any credentials outside of being Sega fans). Just as a random example of the quality of this above-average fansite, take a look at this article on Eternal Champions, a 16-bit fighting game series generally remembered as a mediocre attempt to copy Mortal Kombat with even more over-the-top violence. Horowitz's opinion that Eternal Champions was actually far superior to Street Fighter II and Virtua Fighter is pretty far out there, and his logic is often nonsensical (claiming that the very prospect of a Saturn Eternal Champions might have been "the best 2D fighting game ever made", arguing that "Sega's eventual decision to farm out the development of Virtua Fighter 3tb on the Dreamcast is proof" that Virtua Fighter "would not be able to compete with Eternal Champions" in the US, and most bizarrely asking why Sega cancelled Eternal Champions while approving "Criticom, Rise of the Robots, and Zero Divide"--in other words, a random collection of third-party games that happened to appear on Sega consoles), but what is particularly jarring is that the four sources cited in the article include the thoroughly unreliable Eidolon's Inn and even a plea to "Save Eternal Champions!" from "Dave's Sega Saturn Page". I've heard that the site has improved in recent years, but the more I look at Sega-16, the more I feel guilty of taking the easy way out for having used it to source things few RS cover. What do other editors think? Even if it is a RS for interviews, or has become a RS in recent years, we need to have some criteria for when it is acceptable rather than it being officially unreliable yet still widely used.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so let me make some points of order here: Horowitz' opinion is strictly that: his opinion. That doesn't diminish his credentials; it just means he offers a different opinion. It's important to consider that. We know Horowitz is an established journalist; when he cites clearly unreliable sources, it's clear the facts in the article are unreliable. Contrast that with this article, which is a core source of Sega Meganet, a little-known internet service of the Sega Genesis before Sega Channel came to fruition. With the exception of the Sonic Eraser bit, all of the sources he's listed can be considered reliable by our standards (Lost Levels Online is written by Frank Cifaldi, who contributes to 1UP.com and is also an established video game journalist). There are certain spots that really need to be looked at case by case, and I think some agreement could be made to the following:
  • Interviews with Sega staffers are reliable.
  • Horowitz' own opinions are reliable as opinions and reception given his history as a published video game journalist. It's important to keep in mind they're opinions, though.
  • Feature articles posted by him need to be scrutinized and ensure that content does not come from unreliable sources.
I think it's a bad idea to stick a brick on it and call the whole thing not reliable. Some selectivity is probably the best answer because Sega-16 has a huge wealth of information and extremely useful content. They've been cited by Retro Gamer as well. IMO it may not be an easy source to be with it, but careful care with each feature will be the best resolution. Red Phoenix let's talk... 23:25, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am on the sage page as RedPhoenix.--SexyKick 23:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Add The Escapist to Template:Video game reviews

Consensus reached here on reliable source. Objections or comments on including it in the reviews list? Zero Serenity (talk) 16:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think they should go on the reviews template, or at least as a dedicated entry. For one, as we are saying that Escapist as a situational source means using reviews from them should not be automatic, and thus I would be very wary of having a line that would be easy to include them. Of course, if the review is legit we do have the additional extra lines for which the Escapist could be added if needed. --MASEM (t) 16:15, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded, for the same reason. Sergecross73 msg me 17:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it was promoted from situational to reliable. That's what the discussion was all about. Zero Serenity (talk) 18:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you put in the template encourages people to use that field. The template should only be highlighting choice reviews, and I don't think The Escapist's content rises to that threshold. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not that, at times, Jim Sterling nails something ("Earth Year 2066", I think it was, Jim's take on that was picked up by many basically saying what others really couldn't that the game was an insult to the Steam Early Access process), but most of the time I find the Escapist's reviews by anyone on the staff to be on par (not an outlier) from the main 6-8 that we usually defer to. --MASEM (t) 20:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, it's not like there are only a dozen reviewers in that template; there's about 50 and I see no objection to adding a field for The Escapist; I mean, if it's reliable, people are gonna use it as a custom field anyways, so might as will make life easier for everybody. I requested the template edit. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a note to let all involved editors know that the template has been returned to status quo – The Escapist has been taken back out of the template – pending the outcome of this request and discussion. – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 22:01, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Per Paine's comment, I'm going to ping the above editors (and hopefully get some others), as per mine and Paine's discussion on the template talk page, consensus was not obvious (we both came up with a different head count). @Masem, Sergecross73, and David Fuchs: You three appear to disapprove of the change to me. Can you confirm? @Zero Serenity and Salvidrim!: You both appear to approve the change to me. Can you confirm? @X201 and Technical 13: You both look like you were making comments from a process/technical perspective to me. Can you confirm? --Izno (talk) 04:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Technical 13: I think its because of your contribution here. On a separate matter, could we move the add/don't add part of this discussion to the actual template page and not have it here. Anyone tracking down the decision in the future is going to hate every single one of us for spreading it over two different talk pages. - X201 (talk) 11:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sega CD needs a source review

It's at WP:FAC, and just needs a source review for reliability to pass. Spotchecks shouldn't be needed. Thanks to whoever can snag it. Red Phoenix let's talk... 02:27, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've done one. --PresN 21:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Italics in vg reviews

Related pages

Dark mode inversion

Implement changes in Module:Video game reviews/sandbox and Module:Video game reviews/data/sandbox, which inverts the color scheme to support dark mode. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 23:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Reopen the request if there are any issues :) SWinxy (talk) 18:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early home computers

I quickly browsed talk archives but couldn't find anything relevant (please link if discussed already)...

I stumbled upon the Ghostbusters (1984 video game) page which led me to Module:Video game reviews/data.

For some unfathomable reason it seems the support for 80s home computer reviews is very sparse. I could add "C64" for Commodore 64 reviews, but there is neither support for Apple II nor "SMS" (which I presume refers to Sega Master System).

There's an absolute TRUCKLOAD of 8-bit systems not supported by your module.

Is there a reason for this? Before I attempt to Template:Video_game_reviews#How_to_add_a_new_platform, could it be that computer games are meant to use a different template than video game reviews - at least, that's about the only reason I can come up with? CapnZapp (talk) 10:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason for this? No one has asked for it thus far is the primary reason. Template editors can't necessarily be exhaustive or knowledgable on every possible system, and it's been added to as people request. -- ferret (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just found it hard to believe nobody has thought of using this template for MSX or Apple II reviews, or Atari 400/800 reviews, or TI or Colecovision reviews... so you're saying this is the only review template to use for early game reviews? Is the template perhaps a brand new initiative? Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 20:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The template has been in use for more than 16 years (see also the aforementioned talk archives). I suspect most editors who have used the template for those platforms simply opted for the single-platform layout instead (as most articles do), or perhaps simply for the |PC= parameter (as Ghostbusters currently does). – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 22:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MeriStation should be linked. Skyshiftertalk 18:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting that AllGame in review articles be linked to RhythmOne#AllGame instead of AllGame to avoid the automatic re-direct. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The {{vg reviews}} talk page recently discussed how the template lost the italicization on some of the titles during its transition to Lua code. I implemented a fix in the module's sandbox (as pictured to the right) using the italicization exemplified in the vg reviews documentation. I wanted to run it past everyone here since it affects such a wide array of templates, but, yeah, this is just implementing something that was lost in the Lua translation. Any further discussion of which should/should not be italicized is best discussed at the template's talk page. (The change also corrects links for Dragon, Hyper, and Play and moves the parenthetical country distinctions outside the wikilink for OPM, OXM, and PC Gamer.) Any thoughts on adding italicization back? czar ♔ 22:30, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What's the guideline on why some need italicization and some don't? ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Because someone will have to present a very solid argument to convince me that out of GamePro, GamesRadar, GameSpot, GameSpy and GameZone, only two of the five are italicized. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 00:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think italics are only used for magazines/books. Some of them are magazines, so i can see why. Lucia Black (talk) 00:39, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
GamePro is a magazine, so it gets italicized. GameSpot is a website, so it should not be. --PresN 00:41, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't want to discuss this here, but here it is for the record: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles "Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content should generally be italicized". (Note that this includes news websites, e.g., Polygon.) I'm of the opinion that even more should be italicized, but it's another conversation. I used the list as italicized in the current vg reviews documentation and we can discuss what gets added/removed later, but I'd like to move ahead with at least restoring what was lost with the Lua update. czar ♔ 01:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed that italicizing Game Informer's name is falling out of fashion a bit. Is there a reason for this? Is the website becoming more popular or something? Tezero (talk) 02:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's still a magazine, so I imagine it's just an honest mistake (popularity has nothing to do with italicization of the title) czar ♔ 02:25, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the italics. I think it's weird that GameSpot is in italics and IGN isn't. I generally leave GameSpot without italics, but if you're going with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles (which we probably should), you may as well go all in and italicse IGN/GameZone/GameSpy/et al. I've no problem with that. - hahnchen 23:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Process for additions to VG Reviews template

I've started a discussion regarding an additions process for the reviews template, mainly so that passing admins have something to work to. Feel free to chip in. - X201 (talk) 08:42, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment requests

Right now we do reassessment requests by manually requesting at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment/Requests, which seems a bit antiquated to me. If there is any discussion about the rating, it gets lost in the page history. Instead I propose adding a "reassess" parameter to the {{WPVG}} banner that would add a category for articles requesting reassessment. Then discussion about the reassessment could happen at the article's talk page, if any is necessary at all, and the flag can be cleared once the reassessment is done. Thoughts? Objections? czar ♔ 15:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a good way to go about it. Theoretically, then, it would compile all reassess requests in one place, that would then be removed should the parameter be removed? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, correct. The count will show in the bottom of {{WPVGA}} like the rest of the backlog czar ♔ 16:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Its a decent idea. However, I like being able to "Watch" the requests page to get updates on new requests. Or can you automate that page by monitoring additions to the category, so it can still be "watched"? Blake (Talk·Edits) 16:25, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's not possible to "watch" a category in such a way that changes of its membership are tracked. It sometimes gets requested at WP:VPT, and there's nothing that we can do except direct you to WP:Bugzilla. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The watchlist is just for article changes, but you can monitor changes to cats czar ♔ 17:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I mean like a bot which would update the page, similar to how Video game articles by quality log works. It is not required, I just think it would be nice. Blake (Talk·Edits) 18:46, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: The "Recent changes linked" feature, when used on a category, doesn't track when pages are added to that category, but lists any change to a page, provided that it is currently in that category. So, if a page has 6 edits listed, the first of those might have been the one that put the page into the cat. But if an edit is then made which removes the page from the cat, not only is that edit not listed in Recent changes linked, but all six of the previous edits are removed too. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Redrose64, but it serve the purpose of showing what articles were added to the cat, no (among other edits)? Would you have a different recommendation? czar ♔ 21:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, it's implemented in the {{WPVGA}} above czar ♔ 21:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

inb4 "There's a new Sonic character; watch Tezero go nuts"

Sticks will get f**k-all attention from me until there's some kind of consensus that she's notable aside from the show and game. There are a few articles so far just about her, but that doesn't matter. Tezero (talk) 16:50, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • He's saying you bring it up all the time, and this one in particular is worded more like whining and complaining than a constructive discussion. I don't think mediation is necessary, I think you just need to drop it for a bit, because all consensuses are coming up against you or inconclusive right now, and your arguments, like this one, are devolving on quality. Sergecross73 msg me 20:49, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite the contrary. What I'm saying here is that because of the unfavorable nature of most of those discussions, I'm not about to waste my time with any more of these articles. In other words, I'm telling the project in advance not to groan in my direction. Tezero (talk) 20:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except the project wasn't going to groan in your direction; unless I'm missing something, you haven't gone and created a stub article on a non-notable character or done anything else complaint-worthy. I'm actually not even sure what character you're talking about; you never mentioned a name and most people don't follow Sonic characters. This really is seeming like pre-emptive complaining. --PresN
  • A new character has been confirmed in Sonic Boom which is going to appear in the game and most likely in the TV series. Usually there is always coverage on new characters that make it into the Sonic series, so it could be entirely possible for her to be notable. but i dont know why you're reacting this way, so suddenly over a new character that has an equal chance of not being notable as there is that she is. i think we have to take them as we go. It looks more like you set your mind that this character is notable, and are willing to tell the wikiproject before even knowing yourself if she is. Lucia Black (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly, PresN. There was no effort to actually prove a point here, no sources given, no real rationale, just a bunch of negatively worded complaining. Tezero, slowly read over what you wrote. How in the world could you possibly hope for constructive discussion to stem from that? Sergecross73 msg me 21:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • A reasonable complaint. Let me rephrase: It seems that I have a reputation for being over-enthusiastic with creating Sonic character articles, and because of recent revelations about this project's true attitudes toward notability, I'm uninterested in creating an article for this newly announced one at the moment. I'm letting you all know so you don't tense up too much. Factually, though, several dedicated articles on her are available - but again, even this much has not been enough on at least one occasion. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mentor for newbie in the topic area

Some of you may know me, most of you don't. I was hoping that I could get of a bit of a crash course in this Wikiproject's standards and workings - I think I could do some good here. I've been big into content production and I've only did one GA that was not on a game in the usual sense. Though my personal library and collection would be up for sharing, as always. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VG/GL is where we keep our guidelines and our inappropriate content list. As for your library, have a look at WP:VG/RL. And WP:VG/RS maintain a list of sources and their suitability. - X201 (talk) 08:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]


This game doesn't actually exist

Apparently we're doing pre-KickStarter appeal articles now. "Elysian Shadows...The team is currently promoting the game in preparation for a Kickstarter crowd-sourcing campaign during Q2/Q3 2014." Its just chock full of their plans for the game, the, at first, impressive references, are nothing more than links to their own Facebook and Youtube channels and there is only one third party review of note, and that is commenting on their Youtube videos rather than the game itself. This looks like pure advertising fluff, effectively "our game will do this this and this". Its going to need massive hacking back if it stays, but I think the easiest route is nominate for deletion. Opinions? - X201 (talk) 14:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Took a look at it, and it's got tons of content, but almost all of it is promotional. I'd say nominate it and see what the community thinks. --McDoobAU93 14:56, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not existing isn't always a problem, but if the third party coverage isn't there, then it is. I'd send it to AFD, but beware of fan-based votes. Sergecross73 msg me 14:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Czar: Thanks. Saved me the typing. - X201 (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Minecraft Series?

What do you all think of a series on Minecraft? I think it is terribly underrepresented on Wikipedia; it is the best-selling computer video game of all time, and only has one article focused on the game itself, Minecraft. I previously proposed a Minecraft Task Force and my idea wasn't very well received, but this time I'd like to create a series. I'm thinking that many more articles are needed, including:

and much more

If you don't think this should become a series, do you think these articles should be created?

Thanks, -Newyorkadam (talk) 03:51, 1 June 2014 (UTC)Newyorkadam[reply]

None of those are good article topic, as given. The concept of server play is better described in a broader article, with the main Minecraft article should simply explain where the persistent state is saved, etc. "List of blocks" immediately fails GAMEGUIDE, as does "List of enemies". "Development" focused on the version history of the game, is inappropriate, though an expanded article on the broader details of development (ala Development of Oblivion ) would be appropriate. That said, "List of Minecraft mods" *could* be one of potential as long as the only mods that are included are those recognized by third-party sources (akin to List of Source engine mods where the requirement to be on the list is a notable article or a good secondary source.). --MASEM (t) 04:19, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I completely concur with Masem. Chambr (talk) 04:38, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Future Publishing closing Edge Online and C&VG websites

MCV report that Future Publishing intend to close the websites of Edge, C&VG, and their official Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo magazines.

It might be a good time to ensure that any references to reviews/news/articles on those sites also link to WebCite/Wayback Machine copies, or at least specify the equivalent features in the printed magazines. --Nick RTalk 10:16, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Importantly: Edge Online has a robots.txt that blocks caching at Wayback. CVG does not, so there's no rush there, but losing Edge's content is a huge issue, including material we haven't had a chance to capture. I will note that "closing" and "taking down" can be two different things (eg Television Without Pity was "closed" but its site remains open but not intereactive to remain a resource). --MASEM (t) 13:29, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Scratch that, I typo'd in Edge's site to Wayback. It's there, as well as CVG. All three "Official" mags are on there too. --MASEM (t) 13:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

June 2014's TFA

On June 5th, thatgamecompany will be up as that day's Featured Article. It should be noted that it is the 108th video game-related Featured article as the Featured Article, still baring the status or not. Number 100 being Sega v. Accolade back in October. Just a bit of trivia to remind us all on how much we've gone as a project. GamerPro64 03:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

108 , eh? Remind me not to take any Oceanic flights that day... --MASEM (t) 03:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And a note to all- thatgamecompany is a TFA because I just went ahead and nominated it at WP:TFAR. It only took a little bit to pull together a nomination and stick it in a "nonspecific" slot, and it got approved a few days later. You don't have to calculate points or worry about if a better article comes along anymore. If any of you have a featured article you'd like to see on the main page, if you nominate it right now you have about a 100% chance to get it on the main page. The next TFA that anyone has "called" in advance isn't until September 17. (GTA5) --PresN 03:28, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Did that for one of mine. Thanks for mentioning! Tezero (talk) 05:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I called for GTA V, but I wonder how it would fare since it's a very recent FA. Still, it's first in, best dressed, right? CR4ZE (t • c) 08:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

F1 Career Challenge

Hi WikiProject Video games. Are F1 Career Challenge and F1 Challenge '99-'02 the same game on different platforms? If so, should there be two separate articles and two entries in Formula One video games and {{Formula One games}}? Or should F1 Career Challenge just redirect to EA Sports F1 series#F1 Challenge '99-'02 and there only be one entry in the list and template? Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. They are the same game, one is the PC version, the career mode was added to the console versions. I've merged the two articles, as the career one was weak and should be paired with the other game for clarity. - X201 (talk) 08:13, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 11:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Culling down plot section

I'm gauging as to whether anybody is available to have a go at wikifying/cutting down the Plot section of Infamous Second Son. I'm working away at the other sections with the hopes of getting up to GA/FA quality, but I'm yet to finish the game and don't want anything spoiled by having to read it. To me, it's currently the biggest detractor of the article. CR4ZE (t • c) 08:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source update

After taking over User:Mitaphane's magazine archive, I decided to index all of his Official U.S. PlayStation Magazines at the reference library. There's a ton of great information in these, including lots of sales stuff (the monthly charts don't include exact numbers, unfortunately). Most people don't watchlist the page in question, so I figured that I should let everyone know here.

Also, User:Electroguv just turned me on to this thread at Hardcore Gamer 101, where the poster roushimsx has uploaded scans of PC Gamer US sales charts from 1997 to 2000--with exact numbers. He's also scanned a lot of stuff related to Daikatana, StarCraft: Ghost, Diablo, Deus Ex, Bethesda and other topics. A treasure trove, to say the least. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:56, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Soundtrack listings

Taking a cue from the film project, I would recommend that - save for games using licensed music and/or when the soundtrack itself is independently notable (which would include separate music articles like Music of Final Fantasy VII)- that we do not include soundtrack listings in articles. In most cases for us, they are random titles with little significance to the game and generally weigh down the bit-count size of the article. This is not to say that discussion of the soundtrack (composure(s), etc.) should not be included, simply that the tracklist is of little use in most cases. --MASEM (t) 21:59, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying we dont include the tracklist in the article unless its in a separate, more music-focused article? Lucia Black (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, if the soundtrack could be a notable article per GNG or the music notability guideline, the soundtrack listing should be included, even if included on the article about the video game. If the soundtrack doesn't have stand-alone notability, like for example that of VVVVVV, then yes, the tracklist should be omitted. --MASEM (t) 22:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense, i support this idea. Lucia Black (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I support it as well. It seemed like soundtracks always muddied up the article I clean up, and as Masem says, they're typically just random titles without any explanation, meaning, or reference to them in the rest of the article. Sergecross73 msg me 23:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral on the issue in general, but would it be appropriate for Tony Hawk's Underground? I'm trying to squeeze out one more GA before I leave for a bit, and in its case, a few critics remarked on the soundtrack (it even won an award for it) and mentioned specific artists. Tezero (talk) 00:41, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If it's using licensed music, that would be excluded from this idea (that is, it would be reasonable to include particularly if there's commentary on the soundtrack). --MASEM (t) 00:59, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, also because licensed music would commonly have wiki-links to the bands name and/or songs used, providing some background or context. (Opposed to the song titles from a random JRPG, which would largely be random engrish words strung together. Sergecross73 msg me 01:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
God, I wish you two hadn't said that; this is taking forever, ahaha. Tezero (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And to be clear, I'd see this keeping the soundtrack to Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan, than even while most of the titles are Japanese, they are notable songs by notable bands (albeit covers). --MASEM (t) 02:25, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Right. I'm referring to things more like this. Sergecross73 msg me 02:38, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to stand over here with my tracklists in FAs and disagree- I certainly don't like lengthy tracklists in non-music articles, but that's exactly why I fought so hard to keep the "collapsed" option on tracklists earlier this year- so it ends up taking one line of text. --PresN 03:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • In each of those three cases, I suspect that you could make a standalone article on the soundtrack if you wanted that would easily meet WP:N (from what I remember on general reception). Because I would consider these notable, I would not target that type of soundtrack for removal - they are fine as is. (and no, I'm not saying you have to separate it out, it makes sense to keep it together). --MASEM (t) 03:43, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm, I guess I would say that if you can make a proper music section in the article (you all do that... right? Right? It's not just me?), like 2+ real paragraphs, then you should be able to have a (collapsed) tracklist. --PresN 03:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the one thing you'd have to add but it should be possible based on my recall of the reviews would be a paragraph about reception, and all three you have listed there are ones that I'm pretty confident you can expand on that way, which is why those soundtrack listings are fine. As someone above mentioned, this is more aimed towards random JRPG soundtracks, for example. --MASEM (t) 04:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think its a big issue. if we can't void a tracklist in a page not-related to it (because their not notable), the tracklist can still be there, (and you can still defend the collapsibility). this applies to music sections that direct to the article to the main music section. Lucia Black (talk) 04:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The delightful and interminable Featured Content status thread

New month, new section, new style! Here, I'm assuming a successful FAC needs 4 supports + an image review + a source review, and an FLC needs 3 supports. The color-coding is dependent on how old the nomination is, and how much it needs. The more red, the worse off the nomination is. --PresN 18:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In more-or-less desperate need of reviews (last updated June 7):

  • To be quite honest I question if Anachronox will pass its FAC, considering that User:Zeality knows more about the game than I do and the GameSpot robots.txt issue has taken down some important information for the article. GamerPro64 18:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GameSpot broken references issue resolved

First timer here, Just wanted to Thank Odie5533 and Torchiest for clarifying what really was happening with the robots.txt implemented (i.e. blocking all the site data archived but not deleting it) and where to bring up the issue (in this thread). I was able to piece together a fix based on Internet Archive's exclusion policy and posted it in said thread, within a day the solution was implemented and the archived content was accessible again! I'm posting this here in case other sites (gaming or otherwise) suffer from a similar fate. —Machinesmith talkedits — Preceding undated comment added 22:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I just checked to verify this and you are right. And I want to say thank you! Now that there isn't anymore issues with robots.txt for GameSpot articles, I think the FAC that I have up might stand a chance. GamerPro64 22:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're welcome! Just curious, what's a FAC? Looked at one of your previous conversations and figured it out, Good luck on your Featured Content stuff! —Machinesmith talkedits
Great work on this.
Also, we probably should have a list of known "sites on the edge", where either they are known to be shutting down or that have had questionable archiving/link policies in the past, such that - not so much in general day-to-day but for GA/FA , and even possibly for A-class review - that these are all affirmed to be a webcite or have archive.org links. --MASEM (t) 23:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The archived conversation (when this GameSpot issue was actually noticed) had a really excellent idea for a {ArchiveThis} command, while this doesn't really help archiving whole sites on the verge of dying it can have the IA bot start the process of crawling the site beginning with the page being used as a wiki reference. (of course this has to exist first!) IF, however, you know of sites that need a-savin' I definitely recommend dropping a line over at the Internet Archive forums OR The Archive Team. I did it when GameSpy was killed by IGN and got a quick response Machinesmith (talk) 11:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is really great news. I was despairing at the prospect of sources like Knee Deep in a Dream being lost forever. Huge props to the people who made this happen. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lost Planet: Extreme Condition's GAR

Since Czar is on vacation and I have no clue how to add this to the announcements template, I am letting everyone know that I have placed Lost Planet: Extreme Condition up at GAR. I do not believe it to meet the GA criteria anymore, as well as noticed that the editor who placed it up for nomination hasn't edited for two years so hopefully someone else with help clean it up to todays standards. GamerPro64 21:49, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Added the GAR to the template; looks like Czar forgot to add in a GAR section to the announcements template so I fixed that. Didn't use a short {{garl}} template since it expects a formal GAR link; I'll fix that in the garl template sometime. --PresN 23:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My intention was to later merge the two article review sections together (GAR & FAR) since we don't have the activity to justify separate sections. Should I go ahead with that? As for the {{garl}} stuff—I have a question about your preferred implementation on the template's talk page czar ♔ 20:42, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Answered there; yeah, makes sense to merge the two sections. --PresN 03:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DK Rap

I have a problem - I can't figure out why the archiveurl reference (fourth ref) has a problem. The second ref should correspond to the fourth rep. Can someone fix it? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 19:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed - you had a ref tag that cut off a couple sentences before you defined the kirkhopeinterview ref. --PresN 19:09, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep a watch please

It's that time again, low edit count user whose only edits are Edge Games, has turned up to remove all referenced material and complain that it shows Edge Games in an unfair light.

This time they're supported by a new user that apparently pays a company to watch the page for them.

Stick it on your watch list please chaps. - X201 (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Watched and warned on the talk page. --PresN 20:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. - X201 (talk) 08:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Autofailing unreleased games

Videoball (nom) does not have a release date, but the article includes all coverage of the game from development to hands-on prerelease reviews. Its GAN was quickfailed by virtue that it could not pass 3a or 5 (see WP:GACR) until it is released. Since this is a recurring concern (I've brought up a variant before), I'd like outside and informal input from the project.

My position is that a review is done on the sourcing available at the time, not off of what it could be. I recently passed Automonopoli (nom), which didn't have sections like development or even a very thick reception, but it used the sources available—and under the same logic, Videoball used all of the sources available and shouldn't be penalized for want of sources that don't exist. Likewise, we've been discussing the need for a development section in F-Zero Climax (nom) when none of us can find such coverage. (I'd review the article otherwise, but this is a gray area.) Thoughts? czar ♔ 20:07, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You go with the sources possible, and I agree with you on Automonopoli that it doesn't fail 3a just because development info doesn't exist, but it is certainly standard practice to fail unreleased media articles that are not vaporware (DukeNukemForever) on criteria 5- they are not stable. When the game comes out, the whole article has to be majorly rewritten- a reception section needs to be created/drastically changed, gameplay generally gets a drastic overhaul since so much more information becomes available, Plot generally does the same thing (not applicable in this case), and development typically expands as well. Even assuming that the game does not drastically change from pre-release to release (which is not a given for any game, and certainly outside our ability to know/predict), the article post-release is a very, very different thing than the article pre-release, which is the definition of unstable. People have previously proposed that we allow GAs for unreleased media and require a re-review when it's released, but that was considered unworkable; instead, they just aren't passed in the first place. If you want to change this, I'd recommend bringing it up at WP:GA, since it would really encompass movies and books and such as well. --PresN 20:22, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with what PresN said, just because he beat me to it. NathanWubs (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with above - as long as the release is known pending, a quickfail GA is completely reasonable. It can't hurt to have any other peer-review process done on that pre-release version of course. --MASEM (t) 21:30, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with PresN and the above. The isue isn't necessarily sourcing but rather than article written before release is inherently unstable. It also results in an issue where the article is unduly weighted post-release to feature pre-release content and info. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 21:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Quickfailing unreleased media czar ♔ 21:08, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think PresN hit the nail on the head with his comments. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 00:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So do I. I would be conflicted if there was no release window announced at all, because then there likely wouldn't be much chance of information being released anytime soon to render the subject unstable (realistically, the possibility of a famous person dying or getting convicted of a serious criminal offense doesn't prevent us from getting their article to GA, even if they're elderly or sketchy), but "TBA 2014" I think pushes it into the unstable zone. There will probably be quite a bit coming out before too long. Whether such instability should be part of the GA criteria is a different matter, but regardless the subject does not seem stable to me. Tezero (talk) 22:48, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

:::This sounds like a serious can of worms. There is a staggering quantity of games that don't get finished, even from AAA studios. Are we setting up a promotional engine for prospective projects where all they need is a name drop in a reliable source and they get a page? Wow. BcRIPster (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2014 (UTC) thoughts moved to GAN talk page. BcRIPster (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment on Punch-Out!! character articles.

Recently, I went through the lot of them and took out what reception I could find that I felt was insufficient to demonstrate notability (ie, sources which state in passing comments about them, often comments that simply pertain to their difficulty - and not even to the extent of, say, "hardest boss ever"-type comments). Afterward, a number of articles appeared to no longer fulfill WP:GNG, and I merged them as a result. The articles that were merged included Mr. Sandman, Super Macho Man, Great Tiger, Bear Hugger, and Disco Kid. @Niemti: objected to both the merges and the removal of insufficient sources and reverted them in several cases. I would like to get comment from the WP:VG community, as well as users involved in the discussion of character notability, including @Czar: @Gabriel Yuji:, and @Tezero:. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 00:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the redirects you did. If it's difficulty to see, we can start by removing the more obvious non-RS or discussing source-by-source/statement-by-statement. Disco Kid still redirected, though. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 01:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed; Disco Kid was an older merge than the other articles. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 01:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel ready to give a position. The general character notability discussion is still open with nothing close to a consensus reached; bridies just stopped showing up. Tezero (talk) 01:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldnt count on much of a resolution. It strikes me as one of those arguments like defining the console generations succinctly - no one can ever agree on a concrete definition, so we default to the WP:GNG. Probably the same with the VG character guidelines. It may be a point of contention for you recently, but it's something that's been argued about for years and years... Sergecross73 msg me 03:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's the thing, though: we can't agree on how to interpret the GNG because it doesn't give explicit, concrete instructions for fictional characters. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to discuss it much at all. Tezero (talk) 14:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But, we do know from not only hundreds of other video game and other fictional characters, what minimum expectations there are. Specifically for video game characters, per our guidelines, the minimum needs to be some type of reception about the characters, and ideally something about their development and creation. We also know from past issues that resolve around Niemti and vg characters, that simply being name-dropped in "top 10" lists is rarely sufficient for meeting the GNG, since that requires "significant coverage in multiple sources". --MASEM (t) 15:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly: that's just a minimum. There's still a colossal amount of ambiguity and disagreement about how much over that is needed. How many sources is enough for "multiple"? How much coverage in each one is "significant"? How much can passing mentions pad the notability of something that's otherwise close to being notable, but not quite there? What I've been trying to do with these discussions is come to some kind of objective standard, but it looks like that might be all for nothing. And using the existence or nonexistence of other character articles, if you're not citing actual, preserved discussions about whether to keep them, is OTHERSTUFF. Tezero (talk) 15:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is there something outstanding to which I should've replied? Must've just missed it if so. bridies (talk) 11:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Merge was completely appropriate. Fictional characters have to follow the GNG and these were nowhere close. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You did the right thing with the merges that you made. If not even for the merges. The removal of the sources that clearly are not reliable was a good thing. Wikipedia after all is clearly against using bad sources for the sake of using a source. Niemti once again is just being Niemte *shrugs* NathanWubs (talk) 06:44, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The sources were mostly reliable. The articles were crappy written, though. So I rewrote them. Like that. Like that. (Also, reading throught it again.) For Disco Kid, there just wasn't much to work with. --Niemti (talk) 07:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On one hand, several of the sources were sketchy at best. Cracked is blatantly not an RS, so I question why you mass-reverted my edits and ignored all changes. On the other hand, most of the rest of the sources said very little of value. This is why they were merged in the first place. Articles like these are why articles that do fulfill GNG are getting targeted. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 07:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cracked: it's not about any facts, it's a clearly fake interview and is noted as such an opinion (and I don't even like the today's Cracked and their rampant social justice warring). All the other Punch Out need to be rewritten, too: major problems include massively tl;dr lead sections with randomly repeated parts of reception and other unimportant stuff, generally awkward writing, and overlinking everywhere; minor problems include lack of linking and/or italics for many sources (example). Oh, and one more touch (did I mention how awkwardly written these articles are? "MeriStation stated that unlike the previous battle with Bear Hugger, which they state did not require much effort." didn't even make any sense at all). The end effect of clean up rewrite (without adding anything new): Great Tiger - if anyone's still going to say things like "Fictional characters have to follow the GNG and these were nowhere close" they're just being dishonest and/or fundamentally biased against the very existence of such articles at all, wanting to rid of them instead of creating more and contyinously expand Wikipedia as it should be. --Niemti (talk) 07:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I know that you subscribe to a sub-Wikipedian standard for RSes, but your view on RSes is explicitly not acceptable. Saying it many times wastes my time and yours because it's factually incorrect. Your argument necessitates that every single opinion ever uttered on the Internet can be used. RSes is not just for facts.
  2. Besides the fact that your article editing skills are not nearly good enough to be criticizing others', I'm curious the relevancy of article quality in a discussion about article reliability. The fact that your responses are almost entirely based around off-topic discussion tells us a lot about your argument. So please, do us all a favour and talk about GNG in a discussion about GNG. Much in the same way I don't talk about my favourite foods in this discussion.
Articles that I created in the first place are articles that I clearly wish to have removed from Wikipedia? Please make arguments with more thought in the future. But since you used Great Tiger, let's assess... The first two reception sources merely say a "favourite of the series." An empty and thoughtless reception that tells us nothing about the character. Sarcastic Gamer is not identified as an RS (and no, opinions are not exempt from having to be RSes). The GamePro source is a listicle that makes a brief comment on him not being politically correct and discusses his combat abilities. The next one is the stupidest source ever. 10th best headwear? The quote isn't even reception! By the way, you'll have to explain the quality of explaining a function of his turban in the reception. Operation Sports is not identified as an RS and only discusses him as a difficult character in passing. IGN basically only calls him memorable (I don't really get the use of a semicolon after that either; the next line doesn't continue the previous thought, it's merely the same publisher). The second IGN source is a listicle that again focuses only on combat ability and his role in Punch-Out!!. MTV Multiplayer and The Daily Sentinel merely call him difficult, while The Globe and Mail does the same thing and merely makes an observation of things that aren't even that outlandish. The Onion is a brief mention of him in a general Punch-Out!! parody, as is ESPN's humour article. The Escapist, GamesRadar, Crispy Gamer, and Bitmob are the only sources that successfully demonstrate serious notability. While none of the articles are explicitly about Great Tiger, they do discuss him to a non-trivial degree. Broken record perhaps, but Cracked.com doesn't get a free pass as an RS. It's a very bad source to use. Do not imply standards in your editing where there are none.
As you are the only editor among several who feels that these articles pass the GNG, I will be redirecting them. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 09:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually you apparently didn't know, but I do subscribe to Wikipedian standard for RSes. Including for merely opinion things.[1][2] And now you know. I'm glad I could help you fix this misconception. Godspeed. --Niemti (talk) 09:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And this explains what, exactly? It explains to me that your argument of "it's an opinion" is inconsistent. Why is Cracked different? Sounds like the only difference between it and gaminrealm is that one isn't powered by Wordpress. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 09:44, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cracked is not a small Wordpress-powered amatuer blog run by a couple of black friends who couldn't even write teir "About" properly. Cracked is a continuation of looong (half century) standing magazine, professionally run, with a very high Alexa ranking of 845. A difference is obvious. And I don't even like Cracked. --Niemti (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of Cracked's content is designed to spoof and provoke. They may be incorporating factual details and some reasonable opinion, but the manner of their writing immediately invalidates it as a reliable source since you can't tell easily fact from fiction, or honest opinion from baiting statements. They may be a premiere comedy magazine, but for being an RS? BS. --MASEM (t) 15:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Old, popular, etc. do not have much value in this situation, where the article as featured on Great Tiger is user-created (and not even an active user; it's the user's only article). Professional that is not. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 10:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if it's a random user-blog thing or whatever, as you say, then of course it shouldn't be used in any situation unless the author was otherwise notable somehow. I just checked and it seems it was a regular article actually, but I'm not going to defend the current Cracked and their typical social-justice whining (this article is about it too, what a surprise), so I'm going to give it to you and it's out. --Niemti (talk) 11:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, I would appreciate it if assistance could exist to ensure that any demonstrated consensus by the end of this discussion was maintained. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 09:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've called out Punch Out character articles before. No sources offer significant coverage of the subject. The reception sections are culled from bits and pieces for reviews of the game, or pieces on the characters as a whole. So instead of criticism of racial stereotyping being found in the Punch-Out!! or List of Punch-Out!! characters articles, it is split across every single standalone article. Our (Wikipedia as a whole) character articles are mostly dreck, they take snippets from listicles and reviews so they have an excuse for existence, then proceed to pad out the article with enormous amounts of fan service cruft. So yes, Punch Out characters should be merged, but it's the same crap everywhere. - hahnchen 10:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe it's conducive to the discussion to be so utterly critical. As I would tell Niemti, tone it down a notch. Anyway, I agree to an extent. The majority of Punch-Out!! character articles are in a state, as are a number of other character articles. I do want to make clear that I oppose the idea that all Punch-Out!! character articles are non-notable. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 10:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great minds... bridies (talk) 11:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of points that've been made elsewhere need addressed (again): first, deletion, merging and redirecting are not the same things (yet again...). An article can pass an AfD, it can meet the GNG, yet still be merged. Second, comic books and star wars are not "wiki-wide standards". Comics, anime and god knows what else are other niche topics which attract pop fandom. Go canvass some natural science and medicine editors and see what they think of these articles. These points have now been made in detail, by multiple editors across multiple discussions. Consensus couldn't be plainer. bridies (talk) 12:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • To the original question, I also agree with these merges. Super Macho Man#Reception could not be a better example of a pile of incidental coverage. If a point is to be made about stereotypes, it is not in quoting each character's one sentence in respective articles but in treating the characters as a whole (which is what the articles are about—not the individuals). I'd also say that Great Tiger has more of a fighting chance (rimshot) than the others for its own article, though I still lean towards merge. {{la}} links since it's hard to find what has and hasn't been merged:
Mr. Sandman (Punch-Out!!) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Super Macho Man (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Great Tiger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bear Hugger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Disco Kid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
czar ♔ 16:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just chiming back in to say Bear Hugger was full of false/falsified content. Like that was just blatantly false, and [3] isn't described him as "one of the wackiest opponents you'll ever see", the quote is manipulated and the sense is completely different. I don't know who wrote it (I have my sneaky suspiction, and it can be checked), but it changed my perception of this particular article and I think I'll have it merged. --Niemti (talk) 16:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and this falsified quote wasn't even from what GameSpy wrote, it was from a text that was some sort of adverting/press release, used also by IGN, G4tv, etc. So you guys better check out who pushes bullshit like that. --Niemti (talk) 16:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, I just checked for you who writes falsified things like that: [4] (look for "anyone would recognize him" and "one of the wackiest opponents you'll ever see" and then check in the links what really is there). You're welcome! --Niemti (talk) 17:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no! How dare he change "some of the wackiest opponents you'll ever see: Bear Hugger, Piston Hurricane, Bald Bull, Mr. Sandman, and Super Macho Man" to saying that Bear Hugger is "one of the wackiest opponents you'll ever see." He shouldn't have quoted the "one", but that doesn't make it "falsified" and "manipulated". Although, it was what Gamespy wrote- IGN owns Gamespy; they share a database. G4TV does not use that quote; no other real sites come up when you search Google for what I quoted above (without quotes). We all get that NARH is your latest enemy, but do try to keep your snide remarks correct. --PresN 17:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's falsification of the quote (a quote in quote marks), offering a completely false impression. "G4TV does not use that quote" - haha, yeah, except at http://www.g4tv.com/games/arc/46544/super-punch-out/ (taken from the same ad/press release/whatever, and including the first 2 sentences that GameSpy cut). But nice try. Almost. Try to keep your snide remarks correct. --Niemti (talk) 19:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The word "falsify" has an inherent value to it that suggests malicious intent, that I intentionally manipulated the content of the article to make notability seem stronger. So watch it when you're making bad faith accusations against your fellow Wikipedian, and watch it when you're making a discussion about notability... not about notability.
Anyway, since consensus clearly is in favour of merging, I think we should go ahead with the merges (sans Great Tiger, with whom I am grasping onto for dear life just because stricter-Czar seemed to see a gleam of light from it). - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 20:03, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if Niemti's semi-relevant rantings are the only opposition, I say go for it. (I support the merges as well.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I say https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Super_Macho_Man&oldid=611841198 is a fine article that crosses WP:GNG requirements easily. Which is unlike Bear Hugger after I actually checked the sources and found out they're either largely just bogus or ridicalously insignificant and passing mentions (like this article said about another character "Weighs as much as: Bear Hugger" and that as seriously all), besides all the "he drink syrup so Canadian lol"; the original article gave men an entirely wrong impression. So, I'd like to hear about the "other venues" that will allow me to break it out of an elitist separatist clique and reach out to general Wikipedia community of editors. Where are they? --Niemti (talk) 21:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're quoting the words "other venues" as though someone said that. I'm sorry that you don't want to work with the project. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 21:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It was me at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Punch-Out!! characters, which I closed as an inappropriate use of AfD. Other venues for non-deletion discussions that pertain to the project rather than individual articles (off the top of my head) would include the village pump, other media-related WikiProjects that include fictional characters, and a general RfC possibly listed as a centralized discussion. czar ♔ 05:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
General RfC maybe? I believe you have some acquaintance with those… bridies (talk) 22:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And this is why I say let's wrap things up and do the merges. Niemti probably has a point in there somewhere, but it's lost amongst the ragey ranting and the off-topic tangents. No ones going to be persuaded by these tactics, it'll just leave people confused or upset... Sergecross73 msg me 22:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, close it and do the merges. Consensus is merge one editors ranting should not stop such a thing. NathanWubs (talk) 09:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A lack of African video games?

I feel like too many people in my country know English-language and Japanese video games. That's a bias. Similarly, too many Japanese know German instead of Afrikaans, another bias. I think the reason why we haven't covered most non-Japanese/non-English language media is the global digital divide. I wonder of the South African video game industry's existence, and at least someone would research South African video games. }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 14:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a piece on the most prevalent South African indie developers; I don't know of any "mainstream" ones. And that country's probably by far the most active in its continent for video game development; maybe there are some developers in Botswana, Egypt, and Morocco or something, but that's about it. It'd be an interesting topic to find material on, but remember that Wikipedia can only cover topics that reliable sources do. If there aren't any (or "enough") covering certain African games, it's not our fault if we can't cover them. (Well, it is, but only because of our standards, not any bias against Africa.) Tezero (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Minecraft comes from a guy in Sweden and sold over 35 million copies. The nation a game comes from doesn't matter. If its developers have any sense, they'll translate it to the languages spoken by those in the most profitable markets, and have the same chance of getting noticed as everyone else. Dream Focus 18:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that reliable sources could exist which document the games but only in non-English languages. Just because the game or its coverage isn't in English doesn't mean we shouldn't write about it. Saying a game isn't notable because the developers didn't translate the game into English is hardly accurate. Sam Walton (talk) 20:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's an article called Video gaming in South Africa. --Mika1h (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect it's just a case of you cover what you know. There are quite a few game developers in Africa. But PC is a rare commodity whereas Mobile is the predominant computing platform and absolutely huge there. Mobile is actually where the majority of development is occurring and there is an inherent bias in the US to down downplay mobile gaming as somehow not on par with PC/console gaming. Here are some links though Top 10 African game developers, The growing business of African mobile gaming, 8 startups taking the African gaming scene to the next level. BcRIPster (talk) 18:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I also wanted to note, the biggest problem stifling the African market has to do with financial transaction management, and this has been a huge barrier for lots of companies, not just gaming businesses. Mobile is one of the few spaces where there is cutting edge thought around new ways to implement payment systems happening. So, beyond just plane market penetration by the devices, they are also one of the few ways people can actually conduct financial exchanges... so you go where the money is. BcRIPster (talk) 18:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As long as we can source it, "Video games in (Country/region)" (outside of NA, Europe, and SE Asia) would be great topics. And remember that sources don't have to be in English, only that we are able to reliably translate them into English, for en.wiki. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I already know plenty of European indie games like Minecraft. Well good job finding references about African video games. I'm happy! (=D) }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 21:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When you made your edit summary, I read it all in my watchlist as "A lack of African video games? Good." - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 21:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"A lack of African video games?" is the section title, followed by a colon. "Good" is the expression that I feel happy for people researching the African video game industry. I already do play some South African video games, and I know plenty of European video games like Minecraft. However, now I know Africa has an existing video game industry. I remember looking up "south african video game industry" back in 2011, but I like this discussion. }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 21:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LEVEL

Does anybody know how to get scans from this Czech journal? Their "making of" section is a gold mine of info on retro games and I'd like that to work in our favor. Specifically, I need scans of their Monkey Island 2 feature from issue 194. Electroguv (talk)

E3 2014

So E3 is about to start up again on the 9th which means that there will be an influx of new articles involving new or existing IPs, new information about announced games, or cancelled projects. And seeing what just got cancelled, it's gonna be an interesting year. So long The Last Guardian. [5]. GamerPro64 05:49, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A Sony rep just countered that claim [6]. IGN jumping the gun yet again. --MASEM (t) 06:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At least we won't need to worry about Final Fantasy XV and Kingdom Hearts III for once. They're confirmed as no shows until unspecified events later this year. --ProtoDrake (talk) 06:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We should also keep an eye to make sure people don't try to add info about susposed leaks before the show starts either (X's full name being Xenomech saga, the alleged picture of Nintendo's E3 booth showing a poster for something called Mario Maker, etc).--69.157.253.74 (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, that isn't what my X stands for. - X201 (talk) 14:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And a very silly fake poster about a next-gen collection of the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy. I'll be watching the pre-show myself tomorrow night from 5:30 until (hopefully) 2:00 AM UK time. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mirror's Edge 2 is being teased by EA today, eyeballs there might help. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone, feel free to contact me if you need any help during the E3 hectic times. I'll be around a lot, and probably more quick to protect page due to all the craziness that usually occurs. Sergecross73 msg me 18:31, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I PC'ed E3 2014 but I'm not sure that was the best option; I don't wanna be elitist and prevent useful IP editing, but I don't want to be flooded by the vandals either. If the PC remains and some of you aren't autoreviewed let us know. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How short is a GA video game allowed to be?

There is a GAN, Dishaster and it is very short. How short can an article be before it is ineligible for GA status. wirenote (talk) 22:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There's no hard limit, beyond that notability is met, best by having a reception section and possibly a development section. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is not actually required for GAN, though it should be kept in mind so time isn't wasted. As for the original question, I recently passed Automonopoli (nom). Sometimes the extra sourcing isn't there. I didn't take the Dishaster or the other one because I wasn't sure what other hidden sourcing might exist that should be included for the completeness criteria. czar ♔ 22:27, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll review the article. BTW, @Czar: I added some comments to the Ziggurat GAN. wirenote (talk) 23:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As above, there's no length requirement as such; it just has to give a good summary of the secondary research. At first glance, it looks like it might be about the minimum for a GA but looks a bit scant. That said, I wouldn't be too concerned about the near lack of a development section: from experience old games don't have much coverage in that area unless it's an impoertant title and it's been done as history, later on. More concerning is the fact that all the reviews come from several years after release. But then again, 1983... perhaps there was no criticism back then, I wouldn't know. bridies (talk) 00:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, this is interesting. I wonder what Wikipedia's absolute shortest and longest GAs are? (I'm pretty sure MissingNo. is the shortest of the FAs.) Tezero (talk) 05:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here ya go. And here is one for Featured Articles (Spoilers: It's not MissingNo.) GamerPro64 05:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Those lists are seriously screwed up; a number of the articles listed have never been FAs or GAs. Still, an interesting read for what's salvageable. And I stand by MissingNo. being one of the few shortest, since the ones I've clicked on that outrank it have contained longer amounts of text but fewer bytes, maybe because of fewer or less complicated citations. Tezero (talk) 05:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My sole FA How Brown Saw the Baseball Game is much shorter. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 12:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for outside input on Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire

User:Ryulong has been aggressively reverting and edit warring to his preferred version on Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire in regards to new information about the games being added. Please see the discussion at Talk:Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire#"CoroCoro leaks". I would like to include outside perspectives to help resolve this content dispute, because it appears I cannot get anywhere alone. Artichoker[talk] 00:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Artichoker has been adding content that is being cited to websites that are not within this WikiProject's internal guidelines on reliable sources (also everything can be tracked down to Serebii.net which has never been considered reliable for Wikipedia). I have explained this to him but he keeps adding the information despite my arguments against it as the internal guidelines here do not constitute a policy that he accepts.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ryulong's statement is incorrect. My edits are conforming to this WikiProject's internal guidelines on reliable sources as I show here. However, Ryulong is aggressively reverting with flawed reasoning. Artichoker[talk] 00:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So, to break it down, since I don't believe either side is doing a good job at explaining: The situation is: A reliable source (GameSpot) is reporting on leaked information - is this usuable or not. Ryu says it's not okay because the leak is unpublished. Artichoker says it's okay because a RS is reporting it. Thoughts? Is Ryu's approach supported by precedent? Or is this just his personal stance? Sergecross73 msg me 00:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing any precedence for not including the source or content because it's a "leak". I believe my comment here sums up the crux of this dispute and why I believe Ryulong's argument is simply an opinion not based on any sort of policy. Artichoker[talk] 00:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I have discovered that they are reporting information from what we do not consider a reliable source so the unreliability is being inherited by what WP:VG already considers unreliable at times. Serebii is not reliable and no one that uses them as a source should be considered reliable either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"the unreliability is being inherited" Err what? Is this a thing? I'm not following you at all. Also, please see hahnchen's reply here which I believe answers this dubious assertion. Artichoker[talk] 00:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Previously established consensus on a similar issue suggests otherwise.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? I just read the linked discussion, and unless I missed something big, it appeared that the dispute was resolved in favor of included the information along with those reliable sources. I am genuinely confused? Did you just provide precedent that supports my position? Artichoker[talk] 01:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On precedence: I had reports of EA signing on for future Titanfall releases removed from the article even though the original report was backed by Polygon (and some other source) and written in the prose as such. The idea is that if the report is true, it will eventually be confirmed anyway, and truly isn't vital to the article's current state. All in all, I don't think it's worth the wasted breath. On that note, could you please link the exact edit that is being disputed (complete with its source) if you want our input? czar ♔ 01:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the edit in dispute. Artichoker[talk] 01:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • But is there any reason why the content can't be added? Sure it could end up being wrong at a future date, but that argument could be made about any sort of source. My position is just that, at this point in time, we have a reliable source giving this information about the subject, so since the information is verifiable, I don't see why it can't be added to the article. If it later turns out that the information was incorrect and there are other reliable sources that corroborate that, I would be in no way opposed to the content being removed. But we are here and now, and Wikipedia is a work in progress. Artichoker[talk] 01:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not by rule, but by gut (IAR). Is this information something that would even stay in the final article? My recommendation would be to forget about this not because anyone is wrong or right but because it matters so little towards the end article. If it absolutely must be kept, keep it much shorter and less specific (e.g., "News of new Pokémon evolutions and mega evolutions leaked in June 2014.") czar ♔ 01:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be opposed to shortening the content wording to something similar to what you suggested above, but I'm still a little confused as to why this sourced content can't be included. Sure, it will change in the future; maybe even be removed from the article eventually when more pointed or detailed information is released. But as I've said, we are here now and Wikipedia is a work in progress, so I'd like the current article to have more relevant, sourced content for viewers. Artichoker[talk] 01:49, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We should be recent, but we don't need be to-the-minute "accurate" to sources and holding too close to sources may cause us to be wrong. People edited the Last Guarding article yesterday - in good faith - to add in this cancellation news whereas if they waited a few hours they would have been proven wrong. Here, I'm emphasizing that the information that we're talking about does not have a good path of authority. Contrast that to E3 this week: if EA says in their press event that Mirror's Edge 2 is coming this year, that's something to add to WP immediately. But here for those Pokemon, you simply don't have that path. Others have pointed out that if the rumors do turn out to be true, I could see you then add "Rumors of its release were raised in June 2014" as part of the development section. If they don't prove true, we'd not include that. Hence, it is better to wait until verification comes to include this stuff. --MASEM (t) 02:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care whether it is included or not. Just wanted to clarify that GameSpot is a reliable source regardless of who it is citing. That's what reliable sources do, they take otherwise unreliable information and make it reliable through their editorial process. If they're wrong, they'll issue a retraction. The NSA hasn't come out and officially declared what its programs are, but when the NYT report it, it's reliable. - hahnchen 02:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you on this one, this is pretty much my stance as well. If it's typically okay to include rumors on articles, as long as they're backed by a reliable source and explicitly as a rumor by the source, then I don't see why this wouldn't be allowed in the same way. Sergecross73 msg me 02:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would anyone be absolutely steadfastly opposed to me adding back the original content to the article then? Artichoker[talk] 02:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A question to ask before readding: as I have no experience with this CoroCoro mag which is what Gamespot is referring, to, what is their reliability when they report these things? That's the source that should be under the microscope, not Gamespot. --MASEM (t) 03:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
CoroCoro appears to be a preeminent source on reporting new information about Pokémon games. Sources such as this and [7] seem to corroborate CoroCoro's importance (and incidentally are also reliable sources that could be used to back up the disputed content that I want to include in the article). Artichoker[talk] 03:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In particular from the International Digital Times article, is this bit: "Judging by other CoroCoro scans from past X and Y Pokemon games, we're hoping to get at least a screengrab or two of some gameplay. The magazine already ran a piece comparing the differences between Groudon, Kyogre and the new art renderings on the games' box art." Artichoker[talk] 03:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that CC was reliable, and the issue was more that it was a "leak" than about the source itself. (It's a print magazine, right? Aren't they just about always reliable?) Sergecross73 msg me 03:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a print magazine and is reliable as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Academic Journals/Journals cited by Wikipedia/C33. Artichoker[talk] 03:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In response to using GameSpot or not, one must always look back to the source of origin for the info. If GameSpot is only reporting on the info, which is gained from an unreliable source, without adding their own confirmation or reporting, then you can't use the GameSpot source. But if something was said along the lines of "We (GameSpot) can confirm/have learned X info that was first reported by Y unreliable source", then it would be okay to use the GameSpot source. That's how I see it and generally go about adding information that may be questionable. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a response, I'd like to quote User:Hahnchen above: "That's what reliable sources do, they take otherwise unreliable information and make it reliable through their editorial process. If they're wrong, they'll issue a retraction." Artichoker[talk] 03:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But in this case the editorial process is just "Look at what Serebii.net posted". And I believe that part of my stance on this has been misinterpreted.
CoroCoro Comic is indeed a reliable source. However, it seems that every month, someone in Japan illicitly gets a hold of a copy of the magazine about a week before the magazine is sold to the general public (in this case the new issue is not sold in Japan until June 13, which makes this edit factually incorrect anyway), takes out their cellphone, and takes low quality photographs of sections of the pages about Pokémon and posts them online. Then Serebii.net and all of the other Pokémon fansites leap onto these small snippets of information and present them as fact to the fan community, which for some reason has since been reported on by other gaming websites with a better editorial track record that vets them as sources that are normally considered reliable on Wikipedia.
It has been my argument that because the information from this particular issue of CoroCoro Comic cannot be independently verified yet (as in I cannot yet buy the issue from my local stores, nor can anyone else living in Japan) the information cannot be considered reliable, in addition to the status of the posting website as being unreliable. For all we know at this time, these are extremely convincing photoshops. Until anyone can see the magazine for themselves (or when all of this is revealed at Nintendo's E3 presentation on June 10), this information should not be on Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
CoroCoro's reliability is irrelevant. GameSpot have already vouched for it in this specific case. We don't need independent Wikipedian analysis or confirmation when we already have CNET's. - hahnchen 11:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
CoroCoro is reliable regardless. The issue is that the CoroCoro issue won't be out until Friday and there is no reason anyone should have the information that has been posted, which was attributed to Serebii.net which is not reliable. GameSpot's editorial decisions should not vet Serebii.net's bad reporting, and also Artichoker's text is factually incorect because he attributes the CoroCoro release date to the leak date and acts as if the CoroCoro has been released, which it hasn't. Let's just wait 24 hours for the Nintendo Direct.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
GameSpot can vet whoever they want, that's why they're a reliable source. When the Guardian reports on Wikileaks material, we don't have to query Wikileaks. We already have GameSpot's opinion, we don't need yours. - hahnchen 12:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Remember, an RS, reporting information that no other source can corroborate, can be wrong, case in point, IGN and "The Last Guardian"'s story from just this weekend. Gamespot's reporting of what some fans have said is in an upcoming issue of a magazine that has not yet hit public stands is extremely suspicious and should not be used until the magazine hits public stands and the information can be verified. It doesn't matter that Gamespot reported it, they're reporting a poor chain of authority of information. It would be equivalent to quoting Neogaf threads - they're not necessarily wrong but until information is public knowledge (this being the newsstand date of CoroCoro), they are highly suspect. --MASEM (t) 13:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The information is verifiable, there's a GameSpot article on it. It absolutely matters that GameSpot reported it, because GameSpot is a reliable source. What doesn't matter is the opinion of Wikipedia's ILIKEIT source policing. GameSpot is owned by CNET, who have a team of lawyers and are legally liable for what they publish. Everyone here is just some guy on the internet. And in a week's time, Ryulong will be some guy on the internet with a copy of CoroCoro, but that's irrelevant. If Rolling Stone reports of a leaked album, you don't need to wait for the actual album to be released. - hahnchen 13:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not verifyable. I (nor anyone else in the public) cannot go right now and get the issue of CoroCoro to look up the information. What is verifiable is that some users have claims that the next issue of CoroCoro has this information, but that doesn't verify that what is being said about what is in CoroCoro is correct. That is what Gamespot is reporting. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also to add: reporting what other sources say in the manner they did it removes any legal liabilities that could even be inferred here (they point right to the sources that said it). It would be different if they reported some inside scope about a company's big plans, otherwise kept under wraps until some reveal date, and refused to give a source that said that. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Don't see the fuss here. Hanhchen is correct, "unreliable" doesn't mean automatically wrong, and if an RS repeats the claim we can cover it; especially if both we and the RS qualify it as rumours. Mainsteam publications "follow" others, both reliable and not, per our standards, all the time these days. Though as others have said, if it's a question of a day or two, I dunno why anyone would fight about it either way. bridies (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's one thing if it was an industry rumor that two or more RS's picked up, separately. Here, we are talking about word-of-mouth from users that happened to get their hands early on an issue of a magazine that no one else can see. This is not the type of rumor mongering that is allowed on WP. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your definition of verifiability is broken. Which, given how core it is to the project is worrying. You (and everyone else in the public) can go to GameSpot right now to verify the information. That you can't verify GameSpot's source is irrelevant, you can't question Snowden/Manning/Wikileaks/Ellsberg/Deepthroat either. GameSpot are reporting this as fact. - hahnchen 15:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, wrong. Working on the presumption that there are these features coming to the next Pokemon game, the reliable source for that is CoroCoro. (When Famitsu reports something, we usually use an English-reporting website to get the proper translation, but Famitsu remains the RS). The problem is that what CoroCoro is being credited with is not available to the public until Friday, and we (most specifically Gamespot) is using word-of-mouth from people that claimed to have seen it. Far different situation. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's irrelevant when it's available to the public when GameSpot have reported its contents as fact. I don't care what GameSpot are using when GameSpot is the reliable source, their editorial standards confer reliability on what would otherwise be unreliable information. Edward Snowden was an unreliable source, until The Guardian reports on it. And here you are claiming that we can't use The Guardian because the public don't have access to Snowden. It's ridiculous. I don't care when Wikipedians can get their hands on the information, GameSpot have already done your job for you, a job you are not qualified to do. - hahnchen 15:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify one thing: it is the middleman of the user reports of what was in CoroCoro that is at issue. If a Gamespot editor himself saw the CoroCoro mag ahead of time and wrote the article on what he saw, this would not be an issue; as has been said, Gamespot is an RS and we assume good faith that the editor was truthful on what they saw; GS becomes the RS and the point of verifyability until CoroCoro comes out. But when Gamespot specifically mentions that these are what others are reporting, they've tainted the reliability of information by using unreliable user messages as their source. Those users may be correct, and come Friday we'll know for sure, but until then, we have information that is tainted with unreliability. --MASEM (t) 15:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
GameSpot are a reliable source. GameSpot have mentioned what others are reporting, and have reported it as fact. That "guy on the internet" thinks that it's tainted is irrelevant. - hahnchen 15:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, your arguments are starting to mirror Ryulong's in the same flawed regard. Reading your last comment, you appear to be arguing about "inherited unreliability", which put quite simply, is not actually a thing and is not backed up by any Wikipedia policy. Your assertions appear to constitute your own opinion, but don't have any basis in a policy. However, WP:V is very clear on the matter for adding this content in. Also, as I mentioned before, there are multiple reliable sources aside from GameSpot that are also reporting on this issue. Artichoker[talk] 23:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They're not flawed. Gamespot is situationally a reliable source and in this situation it is clear that there is something problematic here. All of these other sources are still reporting on the same shit that Serebii and all the fansites posted (not to mention you are picking up shit from last month's issue which came out around the time those articles were posted). We can wait for the E3 Nintendo Direct conference in less than 24 hours to post all this information. Gamespot's reporting of Serebii's bullshit is not a valid source on Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting a little bit frustrating. You once again stated that GameSpot is situationally reliable, when I already explained to you multiple times that is indeed reliable in this case, per our guidelines [8]. It's getting a little bit ridiculous how I have to keep going in circles and explaining this to you. Please once again read up on our guidelines and what it actually says for when GameSpot is not reliable (when the article is user-submitted, which this one clearly was not). Stating something like this: "Gamespot's reporting of Serebii's bullshit is not a valid source on Wikipedia" doesn't mean it's any more true just because you try and say it sharply. Once again, that is nothing more than your opinion and has no basis in Wikipedia policy. Artichoker[talk] 23:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get why you don't understand is that in this situation none of these sources are reliable because they are reporting on content from an unreleased magazine that was half-ass translated by a website we do not consider a reliable source. We can wait for the digital conference tomorrow morning when we'll have more than the low quality photographs posted here and repeateded ad infinitum.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Plus we know how trigger-happy gaming journalism can get [9], so why not be careful? « Ryūkotsusei » 23:40, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
(ec)I don't understand it, because it's not true, and there is no policy about this. Really the argument is quite simple and all of your qualms are irrelevant. Put simply, the GameSpot source is clearly reliable per Wikipedia and WP:VG's guidelines and therefore can be added to the article. There really isn't much more to it than that. As for the timing argument, as I mentioned before, it's really a nonfactor because Wikipedia is a work in progress. The information can be added in now, and if it changes soon, that is perfectly fine and after that fact, the article should be further updated to reflect the changes. But there really isn't a basis I'm seeing for preventing the information from being added now. Just because you don't like the content doesn't mean you get to stall and prevent editors from adding it for the sole reason of "you should just wait". Artichoker[talk] 23:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not reliable, because their source is not reliable and somewhat problematic. If the source is known and not reliable it invalidates anything that is quoting them. I am tired of repeating myself and tired of you dismissing my arguments and Masem's just because policies and guidelines do not (yet) explain what we are trying to say. Clearly in this case, WP:IAR shows that we cannot accept GameSpot or SlashGear or anyone else reporting on content from the as of yet unreleased July 2014 issue of CoroCoro Comic as fact because it is not out yet and because all the E3 hype has already proven to have some false information released.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No one cares about your self-important Wikipedia sleuthing. I value GameSpot's editorial judgement over yours. That's why GameSpot is a reliable source, and you are not. It's that simple, and I've been repeating that since the beginning. Only for Wikipedians to jump in and tell me how their amateur self taught divinations somehow trump GameSpot's editorial policies. If that really is the case, then you should be making the case that GameSpot is not reliable at all. Following your example, we can't publish anything on the Edward Snowden stories because the NSA hasn't officially published what they're up to, and you can't get your hands on it. - hahnchen 10:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT explains the whole situation, sort of. If we source the GameSpot post, we would have to say that the information is from GameSpot's report of Serebii's report of CoroCoro. We can't say ourselves that CoroCoro indeed has this information. We must explicitly mention that the information is from a leak. Blake (Talk·Edits) 03:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After we tried to get some opinions of this without much success:
Hello, I am asking here since I was not able to find any guidelines for external links for open source game articles and after in the non-satisfying discussion, I had in the articles discussion page yet , this project was mentioned I think that the experts for this case are to find here. The case is about a formerly commercial video game called Meridian 59 which went open source end of 2012. Now there is a group of players of this game which formed 8 months ago together to modify the game code and opened their own server. The homepage of this group and their server is now linked in the external links section of the original game article Meridian59 as "Open Meridian Project, a fork of Meridian 59".
Since there has not been any medial coverage or other independent secondary source yet which is acknowledging this "open meridian project"-group or their server, which could give them a prominent feature, the question I am asking is: Is the linking their homepage on the games article appropriate or not? Is this group and its project encyclopedic relevant enough? The only independent source which is in any way mentioning this group (I think its refering to them) is a recent article from May 2014 of the The New Yorker which covered the history of this game and shortly mentions the development after it went open source. But also there this group could be only referred as "a group of dedicated players" without any mention of their server. I think the linking is not appropriate and that it serves the reason to help to promote their own server. Other changes in that manner have been done and already been reverted like listing this group in the articles info-box as developers for this game and the creation of an own wikipedia article (Open Meridian Project).
I may be oversensitive so I am hoping to be able to find some opinions of not involved people here. My opinion here is if its ok to link their homepage (without any reliable secondary resources acknowledging them) in the article it should be also ok for other people I know which also already contributed to the open source development of this game (and also could be refered to with the new yorker article as part of this "dedicated group of players") and even me and everyone else to open an own server with an own homepage and to link it in the article. Kind regards Seader (talk) 05:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You'd be allowed to put it as an external link. In other words, we can't talk about that group in the main body text of the article, but we can curtain them off to the side and furtively suggest, "Hey, go look here for more information - but you didn't hear it from us!" Tezero (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Xbox E3 Show

I'm going to jot any notes I can't possibly keep up with for inclusion. I added Combo to the KI list, but I'm going to throw some rather unsourced items as the media briefings go by. If you can help putting them into articles, please do. Zero Serenity (talk) 16:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  1. T.J. Combo for KI 2013. Done
  2. Happy Wars for Xbox One. (Not Done)
  3. COD:AW will have timed content, Xbox One first. Just like the previous COD games. (Not Done) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zero Serenity (talk • contribs) 16:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Nurburgring for Forza Motorsport 5. Done --McDoobAU93 16:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Forza Horizon 2 launch date September 30, 2014 (not done). I'm at work and following on Twitter, so getting tweets --McDoobAU93 16:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Evolve betas first on Xbox One and gets DLC first (Not Done) --McDoobAU93 16:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Dragon Age Inquisition is getting timed content for Xbox One. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 16:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Sunset Overdrive October 28th. (Not Done)
  9. Super Ultra Dead Rising 3 Arcade...thing. Comes with all the DR heroes. Fuck that name is long. It's available now! (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Fantasia releases October 28th. (Not Done)
  11. Dance Central Spotlight, New Dance Central Game. September 2014. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Fable will have a multiplayer beta coming this Holiday. Zero Serenity (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Fable will have the player be a villain if you want, kinda like a dungeon master. Turns this into 4v1. (Not Done?) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Conker (of the bad fur day) will be in Project Spark. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  15. New Game: Ori, the blind forest. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  16. November 11th, Halo: The Master Chief Collection. It's exactly what it sounds like (Halo 1-4). Xbox One. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Related, all maps for every one of the above games, running on Azure and also includes 4,000 Gamerscore. Also includes Halo: Nightfall, the live action series. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Halo 5 gets a multiplayer beta this Holiday, available with the Master Chief Collection above. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Playdead studios will have a timed exclusive game that looks like a survival horror-stealth-2d platformer...thing.... called Inside. Zero Serenity (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)  Done - already knew this was coming, but w/o name. Redirect made, disamg updated, add'l discussion on Playdead article. --MASEM (t) 23:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  20. New Tomb Raider game in the same dark vein as the reboot. Rise of the Tomb Raider it's calling itself. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Kenn Lobb announced a reboot of Phantom Dust for Xbox One. Zero Serenity (talk) 17:46, 9 June 2014 (UTC)  Done because I now totally have a reason to get an Xbox One. --MASEM (t) 23:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Tom Clancy's the Division will have timed content for Xbox One. (Not Done)
  23. Hideki Kaymiya (SP!) announces a new Fantasy Action IP named Scalebound. Features dragons as allies. (Not Done) Zero Serenity (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Xbox One Exclusive: Crackdown 3. Zero Serenity (talk) 17:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)  Done partially - Not keen on a series page for this, but for the time being, CD3 is mentioned on the main CD article. --MASEM (t) 23:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And...done. Ugh this'll be fun to list out. The QA won't be available for me so somebody else could expand this list. Zero Serenity (talk) 18:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think this list was a great idea, Zero Serenity. I wish someone would have done it for the other conferences as well. Either way, great idea. Chambr (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to be able to do Sony's since I don't think I have a way of watching it on my phone. (WP8.1 device) Zero Serenity (talk) 00:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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