Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson

George W Bush misquote

Twice today there has been an addition to this page about claims regarding Tyson misquoting public figures including members of Congress and George W. Bush. The first time it happened, an anonymous user did it, citing only a series of articles on The Federalist, all written by the same author. Dawn Bard quickly removed the changes saying, "I really think this is undue weight, no to mention OR/synth, reverting per BRD." Tonight Marteau re-inserted just a couple of sentences about a supposed misquote of George W. Bush by Tyson. The citation again used an article on The Federalist by the same author. I don't doubt the intentions of Marteau who I see is a seasoned editor. However, I am not convinced that this is an actual issue of concern nor am I sure that it actually happened. I could not find any reference to this being an issue outside of articles on The Federalist by the same author (all of which claim lack of evidence as proof) and posts on a variety of right-wing sites linking to the original Federalist posts. I am admittedly a new editor, but this feels like an attempt to gin up a controversy where one doesn't exist. Tyson's misquote and it being spread on the Internet is one thing, if it can be proven incorrect with citations. But the series of articles by the same author claiming a controversy where none seems to exist is pretty clearly OR, IMO. Axis42 (talk) 06:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Dawn Bard's valid complaint of original research was not aimed at The Federalist author. It was aimed at the anonymous editor here whose edits did seem to include some original research. WP:OR is something only a Wikipedia editor can be accused of... it is by definition not something an outside journalist can be accused of, in the way Wikipedia uses the term and in the way Dawn Bard was using it. I was therefore careful to just include cited material and not sythesize or do OR. These words of Tyson's belong in the "Politics" section of his article because he was clearly mocking Bush's presumed idiocy, and has gone so far as to include the YouTube video of him saying it on his blog on the Hayden Planetarium website ( http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/watch/2008/06/19/george-bush-and-star-names ) where he is a director, thus making it more than just a trivial, passing statement. In addition, these words of Tyson's are being quoted many times on the internet, usually in the context of mocking Bush. It is true that one cannot prove a negative (one cannot prove that Bush did not say it) but I have cited The Federalist in saying that no evidence exists and that is not "original research" as the term is used on Wikipedia. Perhaps that phrasing can be tweaked, but the source does say no evidince exists that Bush said it. But these words of Tyson's, directly quoting Bush, and being as inflammatory as it is, and being that he has it on his Hayden Planitarium blog, and being that Tyson's actions are being widely quoted, should remain and not just simply be removed. Marteau (talk) 07:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I just want to make sure I'm understanding this: Tyson quoted Bush once, and the quote may or may not have been accurate. Do I have this right? If so, I fail to see how this in any way, shape, or form manages to rise to the level of being something that warrants inclusion in an encyclopedia. JoelWhy?(talk) 12:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

This statement of Tyson's has for the past several years been widely quoted, and appears on a number of political blogs. It appears on WikiQuote. It is on his Hayden Planetarium blog where he serves as director. It does go towards his political views, which is why I put it under the "Views... Politics" section. Tyson stands up in public, resoundingly and proudly mocks an ex-president, blogs it on his professional blog. That is a political view. He says Bush purposely intended to highlight a division between "we" and "they" (Muslims) by saying a ludicrous thing, namely, that his God named the stars. That's a highly inflammatory public statement. There are already 1431 words under the "Views" section . The "Views" section has a sub-section about him doing a PSA for PETA. His views on Black History Month. Six paragraphs on his spiritual views. So yes, two sentences about him laying into Bush in public and with gusto belongs in the encyclopedia in the "Views...Politics" section. That's what the "Views" section is for... to document his "Views". Marteau (talk) 15:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the clarification Marteau. I obviously misunderstood the meaning of OR. However, the statement and claim under discussion (and indeed all of the statements previously removed that were in the same vein) is relying on an attribution to a single source which appears to be a columnist at an outlet that I would not consider to be a reliable source per WP:RS because not all majority and specific minority voices are represented in it (specifically, Tyson's). As JoelWhy said, I don't see how this warrants inclusion in an encyclopedia. If there is a policy you can point me to that explains why all information about/actions by a person should be included on his/her page, I would appreciate it, as a new editor). More importantly, it seems that since this page is subject to WP:BLP, the source of a claim that its subject is "fabricating quotes" must be much more reliable than a columnist in one publication the subject fabricated quotes. Is that not a potentially libelous statement?Axis42 (talk) 15:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

"Reliable sources" are not required to be unbiased. As pointed out in WP:BIASED "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." I am not proposing that Wikipedia say Tyson "fabricated" a quote which is unnecessarly inflammatory and implies a motive which is not ours to imply. I am proposing Wikipedia say no evidence for the quote exists, which is cited, and which is true. No evidence of Bush saying those words which Tyson so proudly held up for mockery has been presented. Marteau (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks. So how about we say, "Tyson has claimed that following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, president George W. Bush said “Our God is the God who named the stars,” in order to “distinguish we from they (Muslims)”. The accuracy of his quote is questioned by a writer for TheFederalist.com" with appropriate citations to both the hayden blog and the federalist article? Axis42 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Your effort to remain impartial, non-partisan and seeking compromise is admirable and refreshing. However, I have, as they say "seen this movie before" and no version of this event will be allowed into the article. I'm moving on. Marteau (talk) 02:14, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Marteau - your use of passive voice was confusing here! When I first read it, I assumed it meant "no version" would be allowed by you, but reading through everything again, I take it that you mean that no version will be allowed by other, pro-Tyson editors, and thus that you're giving up hope. I just wanted to clarify that. Korny O'Near (talk) 14:15, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

My apologies. Clarification. Based on my experience, it was my thinking that WP:NOTHERE editors would not allow any version of this event to remain in the encyclopedia and not being a masochist or a fool I was not going to waste my time with this. Marteau (talk) 16:52, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

This has now made it into the Washington Post. [1]. Is it notable enough now? 202.56.13.99 (talk) 01:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

As a scientist and educator, I am bothered to no end by what Tyson has done in his talks. In fact, we have been "fact checking" his fabrications for some time now at Shodor in classes teaching students that you cannot believe most of what is "quoted" on the web or in "science for the public" lectures by so many science "popularists." While genius is still the art of cleverly disguising one's sources (don't remember where I got that from!) doing this on a repeated basis when so many REAL examples of math stupidity from ACTUAL headlines and articles could have been used by Tyson is just lazy. I am all for including a reference to this, which is rapidly becoming a controversy among scientists and science educators. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rpanoff (talk • contribs) 03:09, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

So why are these 3 cases different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer#Plagiarism_and_quote_fabrication_scandal & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayson_Blair#Plagiarism_and_fabrication_scandal & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Glass#Scandal_breaks 216.201.162.194 (talk) 14:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

They are different because (1) they are well-researched and well-sourced and (2) they had significant impacts on the careers of the people in question. While The Federalist does point out several misquotes and misstatements that seem to reveal Tyson having a questionable relationship to the truth, the question is whether this rises to the level of notability and reliable sourcing. People who want this information here and now may complain that Wikipedia has a liberal bias, but, in fact, this is being kept off because Wikipedia is deeply conservative in the non-political meaning of the word: Things that do not cut it, policy- or guidelines-wise, are kept off, especially when they are controversial. Those complaining about the fact that the mini-scandal isn't yet reflected here don't understand how Wikipedia works, even if they might be correct about the motives of those working to keep it off. (However, assuming good faith means that this should not be the angle at which they attack this.)

Whether Tyson's words are lies is in some sense a judgment call, since he does not have the same standards as Wikipedia: He can say things without providing sources. It's hard to prove a negative, and, even if you could on these pages, that would be original research. That might sound maddening when someone as respected as Tyson can go unchallenged in Wikipedia, but the simple fact is that Wikipedia is not the place in which to challenge him; it is a place to document the challenge if and when it rises to the level of notability.

In summary, just give this time. This topic is starting to be covered on other media, and might eventually rise to a significance level that will be less ignorable. But unless it costs Tyson his career, comparisons to Blair and Glass are unfounded, and until it becomes a significant part of Tyson's life story, this is not the place for it. Calbaer (talk) 03:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Federalist links are now considered WP:COI

And here is my arguement. My goodness this article is crazy childish. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 16:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

[Redacting the posting of personal information] Phil Kerpen (talk) 16:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not discussing this with you anymore. Attempting to "shame" me on other websites will definitely not get change here on Wikipedia. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 16:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to AGF when you WP:EW and when you make a tweet like that. To get AGF again I suggest you stop edit warring and also delete that tweet. The last thing I suggest is that you read the policies that you have cited yourself. . NathanWubs (talk) 16:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about COI, but that looks like a blog to me. I don't see any WP:RS dealing with this. -- Irn (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The COi is basically the smear campaign that the site is trying to organize against Neil. With also attacking wikipedia for not letting their pov be blatantly inserted in the article. NathanWubs (talk) 17:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not a "smear" campaign if the accusations are accurate. It is not Wikipedia editors' job to shield public figures they like from valid accusations of fabrication that are made in legitimate periodicals. If you don't like The Federalist, then you'd better prepare to scrub the site of all references to political news journals, from The Nation, to Mother Jones, to the Huffington Post, to National Review, and the Weekly Standard. Better you should focus on making sure the language reporting Tyson's fabrications is even-handed and objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.117.171.207 (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

If a smear campaign means breaking the story while only presenting facts I suppose you would be correct.173.172.162.54 (talk) 17:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

"Facts" would be quite a stretch even under the most generous interpretation of the word. The fact that the author is terrible at fact-checking and has a massive hateboner for Mr. Tyson certainly doesn't help.

Please give an example of one fact that is incorrect. 173.172.162.54 (talk) 19:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The author apparently sucks at any research beyond the most cursory Google search. He spends time complaining about FARK.com users, but if he had bothered to read the thread he linked, they found the source of the quote. The author's whole schtick is that paraphrasing=lying and trying to hamfistedly assert that science is a religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.234.234 (talk) 19:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

But that is lying if you are showing it as a quote in a slide right? Still waiting for an example.173.172.162.54 (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Breaking the story is not the job of wikipedia. If this becomes an enduring part of Tyson's reputation (as measured by seeing it in multiple reliable sources over a sustained period of time) then it will be appropriate for his article. Until then, its just "gotcha". Telling a funny anecdote with fudgy details to make a joke/point is not a controversy, its what public speakers do. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I want to remind everyone what WP:RS is. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 19:37, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Simple question: Did Tyson, in fact, misquote George W. Bush in order to attack him? Why the constant refrain that this 'appeared only in The Federalist, written by the same author'? That sounds an awful like like the Source Fallacy; 'no need to address the facts of the matter because of who said it, not an approved authority or source of information'. If, in fact, Tyson fabricated/misquoted Bush in order to launch an attack on him, this should be easily demonstrable.

1) "in order to launch an attack" is certainly an opinion, and therefore the source of that opinion is very relevant. 2) It doesn't matter if we can demonstrate it happened or not, many things happen in many people lives, we don't write each of them into every persons biography. We write the ones that are of lasting notability. When clinton said "I did not have sex with that woman" we write about it, because it comes up repeatedly, over decades, in newspaper articles, tv shows etc. So far only a handful of blogs have commented on this, and for a few days. Its a flash in the pan (for now). If a month from now, the NyTimes, Time, Newsweek, or someone is writing about this controversy, get back to us. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is no report about Tyson's fabrications being allowed? Why are Wikipedia editors assuming there is no interest in this, when obviously there is a lot of interest in this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.64.151 (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Because a reliable source on the subject cannot be found. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 21:48, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "reliable source". Is the video of NdGT giving the erroneous quote and a highly misleading interpretation not an adequately reliable source? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_jG5kKfacY Smithkl42 (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Even if the source was reliable (which is dubious at best) it's still (at this point) a non-issue. The article is childish and the writer is unapologetically biased...it's been reposted on several extreme-right websites and no one else of any note has taken this story up. If someone investigates this properly and publishes it as a source that we can use and the allegations prove true and notable...then it should be published in his article. Until then there is no reason to document someone on the fringe accusing him of a couple quote fabrications. --Shabidoo | Talk 23:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I am amused by the sheer chutzpah of fact-stabbers who assume that no one else is capable of Googling. It took me all of five seconds to find a non-Federalist, non-"extreme-right" (are you sure you're not "unapologetically biased"? I think maybe you are...) source containing a link to the actual video of Tyson's speech in question. Tyson's serial fabulism may not yet approach Clintonesque levels at present, but it is definitely noteworthy when said lying involves a President.--Froglich (talk) 00:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

If that's so then a reliable and well written source will be published in the coming days. I am just as interested as you are to discover if these claims are true or not and if they were explicitly fabricated or mistakes. I hope they aren't but if they are and a source appears then it should be included in his article. --Shabidoo | Talk 03:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

In the text the following is wrong with the sources. Source 1 in that post does not exist. at least not when I copy the link. Source 2 is the federalist source which is not RS. Source 3 is a government source which probably makes it RS. 4. is Patheos which is also not RS last time I checked, as once again its a blog. Youtube can sometimes be used as a valid source, but it cannot be used to support WP:OR. Which you are now trying to do Froglich. I do not care if he made the mistake yes or no. What I care is it being backed by reliable sources. What also care about is if it will be notable. At the moment I am leaning towards no. Its only neil mis-quoting something which people do all the time. He only has to admit, I made a mistake and boom crisis over no one will care. But I think the fact will be that no mainstream media will care about this in the first place. But I will be delighted to see not just in the coming days, but in the coming weeks what reliable notable sources from the people that will want this in the article can bring forward. (( I will be more then willing to accept patheos if someone could guide me to the relevant RS discussion Same goes to the Federalist..)NathanWubs (talk) 04:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

There's now an article in the daily beast. "A third post by Davis then took apart an anecdote Tyson told about George W. Bush, showing it to be false." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/19/the-right-s-war-on-neil-degrasse-tyson.html 173.172.162.54 (talk) 14:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Fark.com

I want to latch onto this one point made by an anon earlier: "but if he had bothered to read the thread he linked, they found the source of the quote." Can anybody verify this? Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 13:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find what he was referring to. The only similar quote was found by Sean Davis' federalist article when Bush was giving a speech about the Columbia shuttle disaster. 173.172.162.54 (talk) 14:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Searching for "star", the only thing was this: http://www.fark.com/comments/8416552/93029852#c93029852 which links to a blog with two short Bush quotes and then goes on with its own text, which certainly doesn't mention star names. It's also near the end of the discussion, which reduces the chance that it existed at the time that anyone was reading it. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:17, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Biased sources and the WP:BIASED guidelines.

Complaints have been made about a source being "unapologetically biased" and that "extreme right-wing" sites have reposted the sources, and that only right-wing sites are talking about this. The implication is that such a bias disqualifies the source. This is misguided. Wikipedia allows biased sources as pointed out in WP:BIASED where it says, "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject". I mention this because I have added two sources (The Weekly Standard http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/cosmically-dishonest_805319.html and the Tampa Tribune http://tbo.com/news/blogs/the-right-stuff/neil-degrasse-tyson-serial-fabulist-20140916/ ) where both writers are obviously biased and I'm sure some of you will take offense to the tone of the writers. However, a source's motives and tone of voice are irrelevant to whether or not they can be considered reliable sources. We, as Wikipedia editors, are required to keep our writing and our encyclopedia unbiased. Our sources are not. Marteau (talk) 08:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The sources that you add are ones which simply parrot the original blog post and they make even further ridiculous claims (the second one is yet another blog). Peer review? The weekly standard claims his views don't stand up to peer review? A blog entry is not peer review. The blog points out and backs up one inconsistency in Tysons quotes. That doesn't even approach peer review. That's one man noticing an inconsistency and then claiming Tyson is a quote fabricating factory. He doesn't back up his other claims of misquoting and he does nothing to support his claim that these quotes were wilfully manipulative and fabricated. Regardless of tone and intent...none of these sources would be acceptable for any topic on any article. --Shabidoo | Talk 14:39, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be hung up on the marketing of these journalist's writings as "blogs" when they are in every sense of the term, functionally newspaper columns written by newspaper columnists. WP:NEWSBLOG states "Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process." The Tampa Bay citation is by a professional journalist and his work is citable under this guideline. Regarding The Weekly Standard, they claim independently Bush never said the line in question without "parroting" anyone else's work or citing any "blogs"... this particular point of contention is in this case attributable to the masthead itself is not attributed to any individual author and thus relies on the name and reputation of the magazine itself for it's veracity. Marteau (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

These sources could be the New Yorker or an academic journal and they would still not suffice. None of the sources so far shown demonstrate their claim that Tyson is a manipulative quote fabricator...blog or newspaper or not. One inconsistency demonstrated in a quote does not justify their claim. It would be better to wait for a source that properly demonstrates this claim. --Shabidoo | Talk 16:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the linked articles, here is more than "One inconsistency". Look for "360 degrees", "jury" (the weight of a dime is 2.268 grams, making the versions of the story over that weight more dubious than the judge-juror interaction), which are two of the events mentioned in The Daily Beast. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Just as an aside: What I find as troubling as the apparent fabrication is Tyson's equating of "Arab" with "Muslim." Seems he hasn't heard that Arab Christians exist in this world. His casually coming off as if he's an expert theologian is also pretty sad ("they are the same god!"). Whatever. 99.163.248.206 (talk) 00:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

It is generally accepted by theologicians that Muslims and Christians both worship the God of Abraham. Pope John Paul II said: “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection,” in a speech to Muslims in Morocco in 1985. Of course, there are people that claim Catholics and Born-Again Christians worship different gods. In any case, you appear to be pushing a POV. Objective3000 (talk) 00:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Time for an RfC?

Don't you think it's time to get outside eyes involved here? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 13:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

On looking at the content following a highlight at the BLP board, I find the paragraph, ignoring whether or not we can include it, riddled with POV and Weight issues. I have proposed a reduced and amended version below. SPACKlick (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

In speeches Tyson has quoted then-President George W. Bush as saying, "Our God is the God who named the stars," in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)".[59] Several Journalists [62][63] have disputed that the quote exists.

I don't think from the sources I've read anything more can be included. And from how little can be included I'm not certain this warrants its own paragraph, is there any section this would fit better in? SPACKlick (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not as if this issue is starving for attention from editors. There are plenty of eyes involved here. I have to assume you want to seek out further eyes because you simply are dissatisfied with what the current sets of eyes are seeing. Marteau (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, Marteau, I wanted to seek out further eyes because it seemed to me that no one was listening to your cogent points. But thanks for the AGF. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Lisa I apologize for being snarky towards you. That was uncalled for. Marteau (talk) 18:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I've recently made three edits to the paragraph and I'll ask Marteau to not blanket-revert without discussing.

1- an article in www.weeklystandard.com by an apparently anonymus writer "The Scrapbook" is not a WP:RS.

2- The article in thefederalist.com that originated this was missing and I added it.

3- Saying "The most similar matching quote.." is blatant WP:OR unless we can source it to some article where precisely that is said.

Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 16:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The Weekly Standard "Scrapbook" is a regular feature of the magazine which is dedicated to highligting what the magazine consideres particularly noteworthy actions of the political left, and is never accompanied with a by-line. It is a product of the Weekly Standard's editorial board and is considered the voice of the magazine itself and not one author. It's reliability is based upon and depends upon the reputation of the magazine itself and not the reputation of any individual journalist. Saying it is not "reliable" is in effect saying the Weekly Standard itself is not a reliable source which is not the concensus of Wikipedia editors throughout the years. Marteau (talk) 16:27, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Leaving aside whether TWS is a WP:RS or not, the statement "No evidence exists of Bush saying that" is by no means supported by the article used as a source. Second, that article, as the rest of the articles quoted in the section, are all echoes of the original piece in Thefederalist.com which is the one that should remain, if it is decided that enything about this "incident" should remain. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 16:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaba I don't think we should "leave aside" the issue of TSW being WP:RS. You keep removing it as a source. It is a respected publication and is widely used here as a reliable source. The Weekly Standard says regarding this incident that "nothing about this anecdote is true". They say that independently of their discussion of the Federalist and it stands alone... it is their assertion which, although it coincides with The Federalist's opinion, it is not simply an "echo". Marteau (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The story's broken out of the right-wing news ghetto: Daily Beast: "The Right’s War on Neil deGrasse Tyson" (The article is slanted, naturally, but it just states as fact that Tyson's quote of GWB has been shown to be false. Which, c'mon, it totally has.) A vote may not be necessary. Pretty soon people won't be able to convince themselves they can still hide the story.

Possible compromise: How about we just add [Category: Serial Fabulists] to the page? OH I WENT THERE -- Narsil (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the need for an RfC yet. I've seen quite a few references to Tyson's many gaffes in recent days, so it seems to be an unfolding story, and there is no need to rush. That said, we are taking it very slowly, and I see only one of the many gaffes in this article at the moment. Some outlets are picking up on the Wikipedia aspect of the story [Why Is Wikipedia Deleting All References To Neil Tyson’s Fabrication?], which unfortunately missed the point of the quote in the update section.)--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the fact that some sites are taking potshots at the way this is handled is not offered as an argument to rush, but we should get it right.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

This morning, I did not think an RfC was needed. I'm not so sure any more. This is becoming embarassing. The involvment of editors beyond those with an interest in this article, but with a concern for the interests of the encyclopedia in general may be warranted. Today, we have editors here who are advocating that ANY mention of this be COMPLETELY removed. That it does not even deserve so much as one paragraph, and should be moved out of "Views... Politics". My POV and my opinion, but this event is damaging Wikipedia and it's reputation. When the book is written about an alleged Wikipedia bias, this has all the makings of being in ChapterOone. Again, my POV and my opinion, but if this article were to be locked down at a moment where no mention of this event in place, THEN we will get our wish and see mention of it in the big time media with the likes of the Wall Street Journal and perhaps even some of the big name liberal sources. Marteau (talk) 19:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

An RfC would be warranted if this drags on for many days without resolution. While you might be discouraged that there has been some back and forth, I see only a couple days of discussion and one section. Hundreds of articles go through multiple sections and many days of debate, often then reaching a conclusion, thought sometimes not. I think a RfC is premature. For example, has anyone yet completed a summary of the gaffes that should be considered? I see discussion of the Bush quote, but nothing about the made up headline or the confusion between mean and median. Nothing about the 360 degree comment, which was either made up, or more likely liberal paraphrase of someone's comment. Has anyone attempted to compile the source that are discussing the Bush quote, or any of the others? If some of that legwork is done, it might make it clearer whether this is a minor issue not deserving of much coverage, or a bigger deal worth covering in more detail. "this has all the makings of being in ChapterOone". Let's not over-react. The book has been written, and there are many examples which dwarf this.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The weight question

After sleeping on it, this still remains a huge problem with this entire discourse. So let me check through the bullet list of what is here.

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; (This is not true)
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; (I guess this could be true)
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. (I do believe this is true)

Similarly, I don't think this particular incident is of such note in the article along side his other major accomplishments, deeds and events. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 16:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Seems to me that this issue does not pass the notability test, at least not yet. Perhaps it will at some point, but what I see is a blogger trying to attract attention and attempting to use Wikipedia as a "peg" to attract such attention. Not everything posted on every blog every week is of sufficient notability to warrant inclusion. Until this material gains more widespread notoriety I think we're on solid ground leaving it out. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 19:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a small matter of terminology; Notability is an article creation criteria, the word you are looking for is weight. Second Quantization (talk) 23:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• It seems undue to me if it's based on a singular source especially since the website is also relatively new (it appears to have launched last year) and does not have established reliability. Neil deGrasse Tyson would be expected to appear in a wide variety of sources since he is an established figure if there is a major controversy. We can wait and then weight new sources which emerge if this attracts wider attention from more reliable sources. Also see WP:NOTNEWS, Second Quantization (talk) 23:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Your assertion that this is "based on a singular source" is not correct. Notice the number of reliable sources in support. It isn't even the case that we have to weigh competing claims. I've only found one source so far that supports Tyson, and they don't even allege he is correct, they just think it is overblown. The next source that says Tyson was right and Bush wrong will be the first one I've seen. Have you seen any?--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

You have very limited sourcing at the moment in relatively minor papers, Second Quantization (talk) 15:21, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

What's important is that the "relatively major papers" you desperately wish you could rely upon right now aren't touching this because they know Tyson is BSing.--Froglich (talk) 15:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Or they simply aren't aware of it because it's not a major news story. Second Quantization (talk) 09:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Controversy over edits

Just for informational purposes, some sites picking up on the Wikipedia handing:

• Wikipedia editor deletes all evidence of Neil deGrasse Tyson’s quote fabrication
• TIL: Wikipedia Scrubbing All References To Neil Tyson's Fabrication

• Why is Wikipedia deleting all references to Neil Tyson’s quote fabrications?
• Why is Wikipedia deleting all references to Neil deGrasse Tyson’s fabrication?
• Dear atheists, why is Wikipedia deleting all references to Neil Tyson’s quote fabrications?
• Why Is Wikipedia Deleting All References To Neil Tyson’s Fabrication?

There are more.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

None of these sites pass WP:RS. Why should we care? Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 20:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Because this entire episode is becoming an embarassment to the encyclopedia and is becoming national news. Marteau (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

It appears in some blogging places and you think that qualifies as national news. That certainly is a low bar, Second Quantization (talk) 23:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Second Quantization Mention of this edit war appeared in the Weekly Standard where it says, "Wikipedia editors have rigorously deleted anything less than flattering from Tyson’s bio". That is not a "low bar". http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/cosmically-dishonest_805319.html Marteau (talk) 00:42, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not American so I don't generally read obscure American opinion sites, the wikipedia article on the Weekly standard says "The Weekly Standard is an American neoconservative opinion magazine". That doesn't sound like a neutral reliable news source by any standard, Second Quantization (talk) 09:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

We should care because if many sites are writing that we are mishandling an article, we would like to be in a position of having a solid response. At the moment we don't, other than the weak, "it sometimes take time to get it right". Which is true, but we ought to work on getting it right.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

One partial response is that the claim is misleading. While there have been some edits of one quote, it is in the article at the moment, so it is not correct to assert that all references have been removed or scrubbed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

That's true. However when or if this article gets locked down in the future (and I betting it will), my fear is that it will be minutes after all references to the episode have been removed. I would hope any admin choosing to lock it down is particularly careful. Marteau (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The article does look like it is being mishandled. If Tyson has been fabricating quotes, then that needs to be in the WP article.--TMD (talk) 20:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

This is now become blown all out of proportion on two levels. 1. The inclusion of a blogger and his unsuppoerted and exagerated claims. 2. Like minded sources claiming foul despite normal editing behaviour on wikipedia. I'm half expecting to see some blog publish: 3. A full out conspiracy orchestrated by Tyson himself to rewrite history by bribing wikipedia editors. --Shabidoo | Talk 20:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe three levels, if we count your contribution. Which claims by the blogger are unsupported and exaggerated and make it in the article?--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The blogger points out that the Bush quote cannot be found. From this he leaps to the conclusion that Tyson is a manipulative fabrication machine. The other two examples of quote fabrication are dubious and they are not supported. Again. One quote cannot be substantiated and two quotes may be incorrect...therefore Tyson has wilfully manipulated and fabricated quotes to further his agenda. Exagerated claim...parroted by a few more blogs and agencies. Non-notable. --Shabidoo | Talk 21:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you missed the point. The supposed quote of Bush cannot be found, because that is not what he said. If we were, say, talking about a quote of mine, the fact that you cannot find it may simply mean that you haven't looked in the right place, but there is no way that President Bush actually uttered a quote that Tyson heard, but no one else can track down. We know what Tyson referred to, because Bush did say, "The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today". We don;t need to take the word of some blogger, it is documented here. In other words, we do know what Bush said, and it isn't what Tyson claimed, unless you want to assert that Bush spoke at a public ceremony, and made a different comment about the creator naming the stars. If you can find that, I owe you an apology, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that if he actually said that when Tyson claimed he said it, someone would have found it by now. Tyson did manipulate the quote, to make a point that has nothing to do with the point Bush was making. (Or perhaps it wasn't Tyson, but some underling working for him.) We don't have to take the blogger's word for what Tyson said, it was videotaped. Have you watched the video? Do you think the video was photoshopped? --S Philbrick(Talk) 22:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You said:

From this he leaps to the conclusion that Tyson is a manipulative fabrication machine.

I specifically asked for claims that are in the article. This is not in the article.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You said:

This is not in the article.

That's because I paraphrased. This was in the article:

I’m beginning to think this Neil deGrasse Tyson fellow is a serial fabricator of quotes.

That is hyperbole of a rotten kind. The quote may be incorrect...therefore Tyson willingly fabricates many quotes. That is an extreme conclusion to make because the original quote can't be found or the quote is incorrect.

You said:

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if he actually said that when Tyson claimed he said it, someone would have found it by now..

Total speculation. Just like the article.

From the article:

Now we have evidence of Tyson fabricating a quote in order to make George W. Bush look dumb.

..

Total speculation. As A quest for knowledge said...that's a pretty heavy claim from a dubious source. Why would we publish speculation and exaggerated conclusions from a dubious, unashamedly biased blog?

Non-issue. No weight. --Shabidoo | Talk 00:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Why are you going on about the "serial fabricator of quotes"? It isn't in the article.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/16/another-day-another-quote-fabricated-by-neil-degrasse-tyson/ It's at the top of the page. Take a close look. --Shabidoo | Talk 15:34, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry we are intercommunicating. Of course it is in the blog article. But it isn't in the Wikipedia article (though I think it may havce been briefly, not sure.) Why are you trying to challenge a statement that isn't in this article?--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

The article is locked Philbrick. Between you and me you are the only one who cacn make changes. The two quotes by the journalist clearly insinuate that Tyson has fabricated the quote. --Shabidoo | Talk 23:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I am involved, so it would not be appropriate for me to make substantive changes, now that it is locked. (I did add a deadlink template to a dead link)--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, they do insinuate Tyson fabricated the quote. But it is clear that it is only THEIR opinion and no one else's. It certainly is not the encylopedia's opinion, per se...the encylopedia itself is implying no such thing. Our encyclopedia is not stating he fabricated anything. The quoted journalists are, and simply disagreeing with them is no basis for removing a properly cited quote about the matter. That would be OR and POV. Marteau (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Why would we care about the speculation of a blogger and two journalists who parroted him? This is what the majority of users have been saying. Undue weight.--Shabidoo | Talk 00:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I could understand an argument to remove one of the quotes due to a weight issue. But to propose removal of ALL quotes and ALL references is a different matter would be an overcorrection. To answer your question "why would we care"... this issue deserves inclusion because it is a credible, cited, documented instance of a internationally renowned public speaker proudly mocking and quoting an incorrect quotation about a president. And doing it repeatedly. And leaving it on his Hayden Planitarium blog even now when I would bet his agent knows about this issue even if Tyson himself does not You have made it clear that you don't think that is worthy of so much as a paragraph here. I, and others disagree, and I suppose this will have to eventually come to a request for comments and a seeking of concensus. Marteau (talk) 00:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Can people please avoid controversies amongst unreliable sources. It is of no interest here. The topic lacks due weight. We can wait for sources which are more reliable to bring up the issue (The federalist is only 1 year old, and does not appear to have an established reputation), and then discuss it at that point. We should weight for sources of sufficient weight before adding it. For example, the piece in the same section is sourced to the NYT. Second Quantization (talk) 23:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I have added http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/cosmically-dishonest_805319.html as a source. The Weekly Standard is a well-established reliable source. Marteau (talk) 01:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to allege unreliable sources, make your case. The quote attributed to Tyson is both contained prominently on the Hayden Planetarium site, as well as clearly stated in the video hosted by the same site. The Tampa Tribune is preemptively an RS. If you want to start a debate as RSN to get it declared not reliable, be my guest, but you need to do that before declaring it is not an RS.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:55, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

If the Federalist were the only one making the claim, and did so without supporting evidence, I would be with you in calling for and supporting the removal. But the claim is supported by multiple independent sources.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Most of the sources are only talking about this in the context of it being a Wikipedia controversy. That does not make it notable for an article on Neil deGrasse Tyson; the fact that we are discussing it here at length on the talk page does not change the fact that it is not noteworthy enough to be included in his article. --Aquillion (talk) 06:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

@Aquillion: I think you missed the point I was trying to make. My selection of items wasn't a random sample of articles about the incident, it was a deliberate selection of sources talking about the Wikipedia aspect. So of course these sources talk about it being a Wikipedia controversy, that's how they were selected. There are many sources talking about the incident itself, without mentioning Wikipedia.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:02, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

As it stands now, the topic does not have sufficient weight since its appearing in relatively minor sources. I think people are trying to make wikipedia the focus of a controversy by sticking undue attacks into a BLP. The federalist is a lower tier source than those such as say the NYT or the Guardian. We should wait for sources of a higher impact before making the addition, instead of the barrel scrapping that is occurring. That the more reliable sources discuss Benjamin Domenech of the Federalist as engaging in attacks against Tyson: (Physics Today) is also very problematic. You want us to host the attacks. Second Quantization (talk) 08:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Bush/ Tyson quote incident

The incident involving Tyson and Bush was inserted and removed a few times on the 17th, but has been reasonably stable until someone just removed it a few minutes ago. Let's discuss if you think the sourcing is weak, but I see a quote sourced to the Hayden Planetarium, where Tyson is director. No one has questioned the authenticity of the quote by Tyson, as distinct from the claim that Tyson incorrect quotes Bush. The Hayden Planetarium is hardly a weak source. While a blogger is always a question, the claims are all sourced to good sources, so unless someone makes a compelling case that someone has doctored video or hacked the planetarium site, removal on the grounds that they are weak sources isn't valid. We can debate WEIGHT issues, but let's debate them, not preemptively assume an answer.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but so far users JoelWhy, Calbaer, ZeroSerenity, myself, Nathanwubs, Gaijin42, Axis42, Mr. Swordfish, Second Quantization and TRPod have all leaned towards or outright said this is a non-issue and/or is non-notable and/or not weighty enough as it stands. Philbrick...how would you defend the "weight" of Tysons alleged quote fabrication? --Shabidoo | Talk 01:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

It isn't the count of editors, it is the weight of the argument. Has a single editor said that the quote wasn't uttered by Tyson? If it is granted that a very notable figure publicly made fun of the President of the United States, can you explain why this is a non-issue? It was not a throw-away comment said in some casual way, it is part of his prepared remarks, used in multiple occasions, and memorialized on the website of the Hayden Planetarium. It has been discussed by many, including many reliable sources. The burden is on you to explain why this highly discussed event, involving two highly notable individuals, is a non-issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Its a WP:WEIGHT issue, and I say this as a pretty well known "right wing nut job" on the wiki. However, I will say that the story is gaining momentum and being discussed in more reliable sources, and If that pattern continues, I certainly would not be surprised if my !vote changes in the next few days. Many notable people say snarky things about other notable people, we don't cover them in their respective biographies, unless it becomes part of their persistent reputation and is covered by more than just the "Oh snap!" sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree that if this was some minor issue, one of the recent Biden gaffe arising from letting his tongue get ahead of his brain, and speaking off the cuff in a way he often needs to retract, it wouldn't be worth mentioning. However, this incident is no off-the-cuff remark. It has been used multiple times, and it is setup in a very orchestrated way. The fact that it is featured on the Planetarium website suggests that someone is actually proud of it. --S Philbrick(Talk) 02:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you actually watched the video? This is not some minor point. He takes four minutes, sets up the audience, invokes personal photos of the 9/11 disaster (which turns out to have nothing to do with what Bush said), makes a point of checking his computer to make sure he is getting his quote right, and accuses the President of the united States of being clueless about Muslims, all as part of a presentation on how clueless people are about science. Now, I happen to think many people, including many members of Congress are clueless about science, but there's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there if you want to make the point. To use an emotional speech used in honor of our seven fallen astronauts to try to make the President look like a doofus would be bad enough if it were true, but Tyson gets his dates wrong, his quotes wrong, his location wrong, and makes a point that is totally not supported by the evidence. This is a man going on tour trying to talk about how to get things right, and he is getting so many things wrong. I am happy to see that no one is actually trying to defend the quote, the attempt is "simply" to minimize it as if it were unimportant, which it would be if it were some marginally notable person talking about some nobody. Bush make enough gaffes, if someone wants to use one in a speech, there's a lot to choose from, no need to make stuff up.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

No doubt, it was a douchy thing for him to do when there were plenty of other anecdotes he could have told. But its the same thing Stewart, Letterman, Leno, SNL, Limbaugh and hundreds of others do. Twist things that makes someone they don't like look bad or to make a point. He was making a humorous lesson to a general non technical audience - fudging things to their level is par for the course. See any TED talk for more examples. We only cover these things when they become more than just the story of the week. If people are bringing this type of thing up in general articles about Tyson a month from now, it will be an entirely different ball of wax. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact that the clip of him going on about what a dullard and a bigot Bush purportedly is remains on his professional blog at the Hayden Planetarium web site, a scientific institution where he is director, gives weight towards including it in his "Views" section here. A desire for linkage between this issue and his person is invited by and demonstrated by the man himself. Marteau (talk) 02:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Several users have explained in several different ways, Sphilbrick, why this non-issue as it stands doesn't have weight. This is on top of the other multiple problems with this non story. I'm sure a lot of users would change their mind if and when things develop further as would I. --Shabidoo | Talk 02:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

It does not need to become a major issue. His political view is that Bush II is a dope and a bigot. He has made that clear and it seems (to me) that he is proud of it. He blogged about it on his Hayden Planitarium site. He repeated his view multiple times in his lectures... last time was a week or so ago. It is clearly a political view which is widely quoted on the internet and the fact that he has so widely and so publicly demonstrated contempt for Bush is reason enough for it to be in his "Views... Politics". That it turns out that the basis for his contempt (at least in this instance) has become controversial in some circles is simply an additional reason for it's inclusion here, not the only reason. Marteau (talk) 03:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

"It is clearly a political view". He's on record as saying republicans are more pro-science than democrats because they spend more money on science, so I'm curious what politics you think it is, Second Quantization (talk) 08:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I am beginning to think putting mention of this in the "Views... Politics" section was incorrect, and that this issue belongs in the "Career" section. A scientist, Tyson also is a professional communicator and educator who spends much of his time performing lectures and speeches for various audiences. His renown as a speaker and educator is significant. I'm thinking this issue is more related to his conduct as a speaker and the content and quality of his lectures than it's relation to politics. Marteau (talk) 08:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, your counting and listing of editors who have, it your estimation, supported exclusion of this issue is a meaningless metric. It does not include editors reading this page who feel their POV has been adequately covered herer and do not feel compelled to chime in just to say "I agree!". It may include editors whose POV may have changed. When and if this becomes a more formal "Support" or "Oppose" thing, THEN it will be time to do a tally. Marteau (talk) 04:21, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that, for someone who is not notable for their political views, they do need to become a "major issue" to warrant any detail (beyond maybe a category at best). He's neither a politician nor primarily famous for his political work, so by default his political views (and comments related to them) deserve no more attention in the article than his favorite foods. Additionally, I agree with the people above that repeating what's basically the flavor-of-the-month rumor going around on blogs amounts to a BLP violation, since there's not really any indication yet that any of this is noteworthy to his overall story. For now, the appropriate thing to do is remove the entire section, then come back in a month or so and see if anyone is still talking about it. --Aquillion (talk) 06:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Tyson is notable for a number of things, one of which is for being an educator and a speaker. The incident in question is part of his lecture tour... he talks about it often as part of his speeches given and intended not only to entertain but to educate and enlighten. The fact that some of his lecture material appears to be incorrect is absolutely germane to what makes the man notable and pertinent to what he is notable for, which includes his significant efforts at reaching out and imparting his knowledge and opinions to people, opinions which, evidently, include political matters. The quality and the content of the information he provides as a public speaker and educator is absolutely relevant to who the man is and what the man does... it is not trivia such as his "favorite food" as you suggest. Perhaps this issue belongs under another heading, maybe about his career as a speaker... I'll give you that. But the information is pertinent to the man and his work, and should be included in his bio. But saying that information regarding the quality, content and purport of his speeches is irrelevant and should be removed is ludicrous. Marteau (talk) 06:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gaijin42: The fact that professional comedians twist things to make a joke isn't an apt comparison. Tyson isn't on the standup tour, his day job is a science communicator. A major portion of his life is talking to groups for the purpose of education, and his theme is that many are clueless about science issues. That position carries with it a responsibility to get his facts right. We aren't talking about an athlete who makes a blunder about some science fact, or even a member of Congress who worries that Guam might tip over, he is talking about education issues. As such, this story, which fails on several levels, is notable.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

This is absolutely a "non-incident" that begun as an article in a conservative quite obscure web-page and spreaded to a few other right-wing sites mostly. At this point I'd favour removing it from the article until (if) it becomes news WP:NOTABLE enough to warrant an inclusion.

It's funny that the person (S Davis) who authored the original piece has now published another one (mentioned above by Marteau) where he says:

• [UPDATE: Early this morning, in a discussion thread about whether references to Neil deGrasse Tyson's history of quote fabrication should be added to Tyson's Wikipedia page, an editor stated that "no version of this event will be allowed into the article."]

The editor who said that was precisely Marteau and he said it in the context that he thought this was a war not worth fighting (I'd say he has changed his mind since 2 days ago, seeing his involvement here). This line was used by Davis as a statement implying WP would not allow any mention of this into the article. Now, one can WP:AGF about Davis and presume he is just that incompetent and can't read basic English. I have my doubts. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 13:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is it relevant that it started in a conservative site? Does that make it a "non-incident"? --S Philbrick(Talk) 13:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that the site being quite obscure and the fact that the author of the original piece would fail a basic reading comprehension test make it a "non-issue", along with the fact that no major news outlet has picked up on this, at least yet. The site being conservative is just another piece of information. Gaba ^(talk) 13:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaba_p , I fail to see how a direct insult against the person who created this bit on thefederalist is in need of a direct or indirect insult against his reading and comprehension abilities....... 98.126.25.66 (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The most relevant adjective is obscure, although the fact that it is an ideologically driven site is also relevant. Agree that which side of the spectrum it comes from should not be relevant. Let's review:

• An obscure ideologically-driven blog makes some accusations that may or may not pan out
• One of its readers runs to Wikipedia to "tell the world about it"
• Wikipedia editors exercise their judgement that the material does not meet standards, especially for a BLP, and remove it
• The original author of the blog post cries censorship and attempts to give the story legs by making it a story about Wikipedia and censorship rather than about the material itself
• And here we are, basically forced from a public-relations standpoint to leave in material that by the usual standards should not be in the article.

My take is that every ideologically-driven smear campaign posted in the blogosphere - even in blogs much more widely read than the one that published this attack - does not automatically meet notability and weight requirements for inclusion. If they did, our articles would be so long as to be useless and unreadable. But we may have to leave this up for a few days until S Davis drops his "censorship" campaign. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

We should never leave any bad content up just to satisfy highly biased outside attackers. This isn't Conservapedia, and anyone who demands it act as their mouthpiece for ignorant political attacks should be told to go away and leave the encyclopedia writing business to grown ups. DreamGuy (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

We should never leave any bad content up just to satisfy highly biased outside attackers. But it appears in this case that's exactly what we are doing. (BTW, my statement above was meant to be descriptive, not advocacy.) Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

By definition We should never leave bad content up period. To satisfy anyone. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 13:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

My main problem with the article is that there is a political views section that is not really about his political views but attempts from partisan sources to make him look bad, for reasons that are unclear (seems like part of their long running attack on the science demonstrating climate change, as far as I can tell, though some have wondered if it's a racist thing along the lines of "how dare a black man act like he knows more than us white men"). Any political views section should contain an unbiased summary of his actual political views. As far as the supposed errors made go, I would think that it would be fair to use a reliable source from a non fringe non political hack job site to demonstrate the fact that there are conservatives attacking him and why, assuming it rises to high enough notability to even mention in this article at all. At this point I think it's WP:UNDUE weight to give any mention of it at all, though if mainstream news sources cover it in a nontrivial way I would change my mind. If it is mentioned it cannot be phrased in such a way as to be "ha ha ha, this guy said stuff that is wrong, what a loser, scientists/liberals/black men are dumb" which is essentially what the partisan voices who added the current section seem to be trying to say. DreamGuy (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll second that this has nothing to do with his political views. Tyson is actually making a point of how the Islamic world used to be at the forefront of scientific discovery until Al-Ghazali. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that is an interesting point worth making. If he had simply made that point, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem is he made it by suggesting that Bush was too dumb to know this. In fact, we have no idea whether Bush was aware of this or not, and I don't exactly know why we should care whether Bush knows this. It was Tyson who brought Bush into the story.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: Actually, he does make this perfectly clear. I watched the entire 1 hour and 20 minute lecture earlier today and this is nothing more than an anecdote to begin a segment on how society's views can impede the progress of science, with Islamic world being the example given (the Jewish world being the counter example). So, he's not making a point about Bush, he's making a point about the lost opportunity of 1.3 billion people not contributing to the advancement of human knowledge. I strongly recommend that you (well, everyone) watch the entire speech. But if you don't have time to watch the entire thing, this particular segment starts at about 48:30 and ends at about 57:08. Here's the link to the whole speech.[2] You can skip ahead to 48:30, but again I recommend watching the whole thing. Your brain will thank you afterwards. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:42, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: I have seen several pieces of his speech before, but had not watched the whole speech. I agree with you that it is well worth watching.

The horoscope test might be useful, if I run into a believer. The down pillow example was funny. The shot at the medical profession "one system" was odd, but no big deal. The way to do levitation is one I had seen before. I agree with his point about the 13th floor, not so much about the negative floor numbers. The point about scientists on money was interesting. I loved the periodic table color coding. Both jury duty stories fell flat for me. He is wrong in the schools below average anecdote, let's discuss that separately if you care. His assessment of the subprime lending fiasco is partially insightful, but mostly flawed. Not a big deal, though. His explanation of the rise and fall of the influence of the Islamic world in science was quite interesting. He should have obscured the license plate in his Intelligent Design slide. His intelligent design discussion was entertaining. His atheism comments were thought-provoking.

One of his comments, very relevant to this place, came early:

If an argument lasts more than five minutes, both sides are wrong.

I haven't challenged the notion that his goal in the George W. Bush anecdote, was to point out the number of stars with Arabic names. I get that he wouldn't be effective if he simply recited some dry facts; he is an effective and entertaining speaker, and he often used "hooks", in the same way DYK uses hooks, to make something more interesting. But in the same way a DYK hook, even if quite clever, is dropped if it cannot be verified, his Bush story fails the verification test. Note that it is not an accident that he invokes Bush's name. The segment title isn't "Names of the Stars", it is "George W. Bush". He gets an audience laugh before he says word one after the slide. His story isn't the story of the names of the stars, it is the story of a President of the United States so clueless he has no idea that so many stars have Arabic names. And to make that point, he invokes a make-up quote, invokes the emotion of the Twin Towers burning which has absolutely nothing to do with Bush's actual speech, claims Bush was distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims, when he was doing no such thing. Add to that the fact that Bush's actual quote wasn't some minor statement, but a highly emotional tribute to the fallen seven astronauts, and the whole incident is reprehensible. He ought to remove it from his stock speech, and apologize. I am happy to see that no one in this discussion has claimed (unless I missed it), that Tyson was right. The arguments are on different grounds.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I had initially though this belonged in his "Views... Politics" section but after some consideration and reading some of the opinions here, I am now thinking it belongs under "Career". Tyson, an educator, communicator and lecturer, is a big name and a big draw in the lecture circuit and it is a big part of his career. This issue is more pertenent to his paid lectures and speeches and is directly related to the quality and content of his speeches. Marteau (talk) 21:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I was intrigued by the allegation that one of the sources is a "quite obscure" web-page". I decided to check the Alexa rank (US if supplied, global if not US value supplied) of some of thr sources. I didn't bother to check the New York Times. I am not a regular user of Alexa, so if someone more familiar with it sees an error in my approach please correct me.

My understanding is that the Alexa rank is the ranking of the site in terms of popularity, with lower numbers being getter (so, for example Google.com is #1). I am not suggesting that popularity is the sole determinant of reliability. (Wouldn't it be nice if it were that easy, we could shut down RSN and replace it with a link to Alexa.) However, when the allegation is that it is an obscure site, Alexa rank of traffic is a relevant metric.

I started though some of the early references used in this article, and recorded the Alexa rank:

• parlemagazine.com 9,423,175
• haydenplanetarium.org 175,871
• pbs.org 445
• texasexes.org 73,157
• arcsfoundation.org 8,694,285
• penny4nasa.org 1,822,665
• iop.org (The Astrophysical Journal) 40,649
• thefederalist.com 5,152

The numbers suggests that every reference I checked, other than NYT, Youtube and pbs.org, are more "obscure" than thefederalist.com, and in most cases, by a considerable margin. I haven't seen any challenges raised to any of these other references on the basis that they are too obscure to be used. My guess is that upwards of 90% of all references in Wikipedia are sourced to site with a higher Alexa rank than 5,000 and I trust no one is suggesting that we should be pruning those.

There may well be concerns about the site, but I suggest that "quite obscure" is not one of the issues.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

First, Alexa is by no means a way to determine the "obscurity" of a site, which you of course already know. Second, if we were to use it as a ranking system we should be comparing sites that are related in the topic they cover. Comparing pbs.org with parlemagazine.com is not meaningful by any standard. Third, the mere fact that iop.org (40.649) ranks way lower than for example planet.infowars.com (383) tells you just how ludicrous this system ranking is for the purposes of WP WP:RSs notability evaluation. Fourth, thefederalist.com is indeed an obscure media site compared with the rest of the media sites one is accustomed to use as standard WP:RS; we can discuss about its reliability at WP:RSN is you'd like. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 14:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I don't know why Alexa is "by no means" useful for judging obscurity,. I'm not suggesting it is perfect, but it seems useful. What are the major flaws as opposed to nitpicks which preclude it from being a perfect method?

"Comparing pbs.org with parlemagazine.com is not meaningful by any standard." Why not? I take from the rankings that pbs.org is a highly trafficked location, while parlemagazine.com is much less trafficked. What is wrong with that conclusion?--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

You said:

Third, the mere fact that iop.org (40.649) ranks way lower than for example planet.infowars.com (383) tells you just how ludicrus this system ranking is for the purposes of WP WP:RSs evalutaion.

You may have missed that I wasn't suggesting that Alexa is helpful for Reliability. If that wasn't clear, I'll try again. If Alexa ranking were useful for RS, we would be linking a lot more YouTube videos. which would be ludicrous. I was trying to respond you your specific point about obscurity, which is almost orthogonal to RelativityReliability. Perhaps I would have been off just challenging the use of "obscurity" as an argument. Is that mentioned in any of the policies as a rationale for exclusion?--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:46, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I've used "reliable" above as a synonym for "notable" in this context. "Notable" and "obscure", in the sense of sources usable in WP, are antonyms (BTW, I believe you meant "Reliability" and not "Relativity" above) or orthogonal if you'd like, since if no one's heard of an on-line source it can hardly be said to be notable; specially for sourcing contentious material on a WP:BLP where extreme caution should be exercised. In that sense Alexa is not useful at all given that, if we followed what it said, we could come to the conclusion that iop.org is far more "obscure" than i.e. planet.infowars.com and thus less "notable", which is indeed ludicrous. Furthermore, comparing sites that have nothing to do with each other only adds more noise to the equation. WP:ALEXA has some more on why Alexa's ranking should not be used to establish sources' notability. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 22:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Reliability is not a synonym for notable. The Onion' is notable, it isn't very reliable.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

There, fixed. Summing up: see WP:ALEXA, thefederalist.com is an obscure media site and Alexa is useless to evaluate its notability/obscureness. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 02:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

You and I have a different opinion about the obscurity of the site, but the more important question, if I may be so blunt, is "So"? When we have to make the sometimes tough call about whether an article should exist, we examine the notability of the subject. Because that determination is so omnipresent, on occasion we see the phrase being used in other discussions, either about the including of an incident, or more rarely about a reference. That use is flawed. We use standards such as WEIGHT for incidents, we use standards such as RELIABILITY for sources. Using "obscurity" as a metric for a source would only be relevant if we were debating an article about the source, not the use of the source. My bad for exatending that discussion here. I should have taken it to your talk page, but I was facinated that you could call such a heavily trafficked site "oscure" and I was curious how you reached that conclusion. Unless you can find a policy reason for the relevance, I suggest that if you wish to discuss this further, we take it elsewhere.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:58, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I never debated the use of that particular source, but the quality of it. Being an obscure site, thus not notable, reduces its quality. That was the extent of my comment on that source. As for the "heavily trafficked" argument, see WP:ALEXA.

As far as the bigger issue here goes, I favour, as I've stated before, the removal of this "incident" from the article since I don't see it as WP:NOTABLE enough to warrant its inclusion in a WP:BLP. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 14:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

No evidence exists that Bush said that <-- Failed verification

I see that Marteau added back the following statement in the Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Politics section:

• No evidence exists that Bush said that.[3][4]

As far as I can see neither source support this (which I had explained earlier). Marteau: please explain why/how you think either source backs the above sentence. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 14:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

That line is quite aggressive and inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If the topic is going to be covered at all (and I don't think it should, as it is WP:UNDUE weight to address random attacks from partisans that have no traction) we should not use language that has Wikipedia become the mouthpiece of a side. DreamGuy (talk) 14:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not given undue weight -- there's no section-heading, no "Controversy", blah-blah. Just a non-boldfaced paragraph. As far as evidence goes, be aware of how logic works, in particular the negative-proof fallacy.--Froglich (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Weight is not the issue with the statement here, the failed verification status is. Marteau: please explain your reasoning and what makes you think any of those sources back that statement. Gaba ^(talk) 16:47, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Evidence is defined by Wikipedia as "anything presented in support of an assertion". The word "presented" is key. Until a fact is presented (in a public forum in this case) there IS no evidence. Facts may exist, but until someone takes those facts and presents them, evidence does not in fact exist. This is, as I have found in my research and I am sure you have found in yours, indeed the case. No blogger, journalist (respected or otherwise) or Tyson himself has presented a speech where Bush said what Tyson has claimed he said. No presentment = no evidence. However, it is true that neither source says that precisely but instead simply says some version of Bush never said it, or that Tyson is wrong, or that say his assertion is false. To me, at the time, that was the same thing as saying there is no evidence Bush said that, but I concede that is imprecise and I will support removing the term "evidence" from the article in favor of a phrase connoting their assertion that the statement is "false". Marteau (talk) 17:06, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Marteau. Could you please present here a re-phrased statement supported by either or both sources so we can discuss a replacement for the current sentence? Gaba ^(talk) 18:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

"In the last three days since a blogger has pointed out an inconsistency in the quote, no one has yet been able to find the original source of that quote or reconcile the differences between the quote cited by Tyson and a version available online. Based on this several bloggers have accused Tyson of blatant quote fabrication". We could reword it like this if this absolutely must be in the article. --Shabidoo | Talk 18:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Shabidoo you really do seem to be clinging to the term "blogger" and using it to disparage the citations. In addition, using it as you propose would be incorrect. The Weekly Standard is not a "blogger". Gaba_p I am not ignoring your request I am simply not being hasty and am letting the issue steep. Marteau (talk) 18:42, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

No Marteau. That it's a blogger bothers me. What bothers me the most (and the far majority of editors here) is the undue weight. It's a non-issue. That's just ontop of the many many problems with this paragraph. --Shabidoo | Talk 19:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

When a professional speaker and communicator is accused of manufacturing quotes he uses during his lecture, that is a very big issue. For someone who is not a pop icon such an allegation is so serious as to result often in the death of a career and loss of credibility. It is a VERY big deal to be accused of for a lecturer, communicator and speaker, and your insistance that it is a "non-issue" to a man whose performs such roles is bizarre. Marteau (talk) 19:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Marteau...did you just call my opinion (and that of the majority of editors here) bizarre? Is that really how you feel? --Shabidoo | Talk 20:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Saying that the veracity, content and quality of a lecturers quotes is a "non-issue" to the biography of a professional speaker and a lecturer is bizarre to me. Marteau (talk) 21:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

That's disappointing. --Shabidoo | Talk 21:10, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Given the position of the speaker (NGT) and the person (GWB) that the quote is attributed to by said speaker, it is an issue. There is no need to defend Tyson here, in the end the truth will be his defense, if it exists. Arzel (talk) 00:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaba_p I propose the line about "evidence" be replaced by: "Sean Davis of thefederalist.com asserts the quote is "blatantly false"' The Weekly Standard says, 'nothing about this anecdote is true. " Marteau (talk) 17:37, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Marteau I propose that if any mention about this remains in the article (which is still under debate and I personally oppose) the second sentence should read:

• Sean Davis of thefederalist.com claimed the quote is "blatantly false"[5]. Basing on the article by Davis, Hemant Mehta called this "the most serious example of Tyson’s alleged quotation negligence"[6] while Tom Jackson of the Tampa Tribune called it "a vicious, gratuitous slander."[7]

Without attribution ("The Scrapbook" is not a proper attribution) and verging on being a non-WP:RS, the quote from The Weekly Standard should not be used in a WP:BLP. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 18:46, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

It is attributable to the Weekly Standard itsef. The Weekly Standard 'Scrapbook' is effectively an editorial. Editorials in newspapers and magazines typically do not have an attribution to an individual, but speak for the periodical itself. This is a very common standard in the industry. As I said previously, "The Weekly Standard 'Scrapbook' is a regular feature of the magazine which is dedicated to highligting what the magazine consideres particularly noteworthy actions of the political left, and is never accompanied with a by-line. It is a product of the Weekly Standard's editorial board and is considered the voice of the magazine itself and not one author. It's reliability is based upon and depends upon the reputation of the magazine itself and not the reputation of any individual journalist. Saying it is not 'reliable' is in effect saying the Weekly Standard itself is not a reliable source which is not the concensus of Wikipedia editors throughout the years." Marteau (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, in the WP:RS guidelines, there is this sentence: "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both." The work in question here is a "published material" by the Weekly Standard, a reliable source as per concensus here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_54#Is_Weekly_Standard_a_Reliable_Source_for_Facts_in_a_BLP.3F Marteau (talk) 20:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I disagree on TWS being a WP:RS (a 4+ years old discussion with < 10 participants can hardly be said to establish WP consensus), I disagree on "The Scrapbook" being an appropriate attributable entity and I disagree that any mention of this belongs in WP at all. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 22:51, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Opinions properly ascribed as such are a specific category where editorial opinions may be used in a BLP. In the case at hand, the "Alexa rank" is useless, the only criterion is whether the source is sufficiently notable for editorial opinions - and at this point the argument "it is conservative, therefore can not be used" is risible. As is the claim that somehow only favoured sources may be used for editorial opinions. I also find the comment "we do not have proof Bush never said such a thing" to also fail - if no evidence is found that the quote properly reflects a findable statement of Bush, and a third party so states, that is sufficient for us to state "(third party) states that the quote is wrong" s that is what that source states. Collect (talk) 13:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Uh? Who said "it is conservative, therefore can not be used"? Also "if no evidence is found" <-- see WP:OR. We don't track down or produce evidence, we let WP:RS do that and comment on it. Gaba ^(talk) 14:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

This is absolutely a "non-incident" that begun as an article in a conservative quite obscure web-page and spreaded to a few other right-wing sites mostly seems pretty clear to most readers. Cheers. By the way, such argumentation does not fit proper use of article talk pages. Collect (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Where in that sentence does it say "it is conservative, therefore can not be used"? Friendly advice: you might want to be very careful putting words in other editors' mouths. It's pretty easy to spot, it makes you look quite incompetent, and it could rightly put you at the end of a block/ban. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 15:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Despite the fact that people have been arguing about this quote for a week now, not a single person has produced any evidence that George W. Bush said in a speech after 9/11, "Our God is the God who named the stars." On the flip side, a number of influential and credible people have stated that zero evidence exists that the quote exists. For example, every 9/11 speechwriter for President Bush has said they have no memory of the president ever saying that line. [8] Those individuals are all quoted by name. Even if you think the website that contacted them is biased, it doesn't change the fact that the president's 9/11 speechwriters and his 9/11 press secretary have said on the record that no such speech or quote exists. Is Neil Tyson, who to date is the only person who claims to have witnessed this quote, more of an expert on the topic of presidential speeches than the people who actually write them?

Several WH correspondents for mainstream news outlets have also stated that the Bush quote does not exist. Robert Draper of the New York Times wrote that Tyson "hallucinated" the non-existent quote. [9] Terry Moran of ABC News, who covered the White House after 9/11, also said he has no memory of that quote being said by Bush. [10] Moran actually says that Bush regularly said the exact opposite of what Tyson claimed.

The Washington Post also weighed in this morning and noted that "no one can seem to find" any evidence of the quote being said by the president. [11]

So in addition to The Federalist, the Washington Post, Daily Beast, ABC News, New York Times, Weekly Standard, and National Review have also verified that no record of the quote exists anywhere.

But let's back up for a moment: for obvious reasons, the burden should not be on proving the quote doesn't exist. When a public figure makes an assertion, it is up to that person to prove that it is a fact. If you believe an event happened, it is up to you to demonstrate it happened. If you think that Bush actually said that quote, then provide the evidence. It is Kafka-esque to merely assume that the quote must exist because Neil Tyson said it exists. Quite simply: there is zero evidence to support Neil Tyson's assertion that Bush said in a speech shortly after 9/11, "Our God is the God who named the stars."

FactCheckerEsq (talk) 17:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)FactCheckerESQ

For what it's worth, The Federalist just used the exact phrase "...no evidence exists that Bush ever said..." http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/23/8-absurd-edit-justifications-by-wikipedias-neil-tyson-truthers/ I do, of course, realize that the reliability status of this site is disputed. Marteau (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Marteau the probability that Davis used that phrase with the premeditated intent that it be used here is 1000000%. The article you presented above is all the evidence necessary to discount thefederalist.com as a WP:RS from here to eternity. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 17:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree, and said in the RfC below that I have come to agree that thefederalist.com should not be considered a reliable source. Marteau (talk) 18:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If you disagree that "no evidence exists" to support Tyson's assertion, then produce the evidence that the quote exists. Why is it that no one here can produce a single URL supporting Tyson's assertion? It's not like presidential speeches are secret. Produce the evidence.

FactCheckerEsq (talk) 19:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)FactCheckerEsq

Our saying "No evidence exists" without a citation would be considered original research (WP:OR which is Wikipedia policy) and is prohibited. In order to say that, we need a reliable source that says that. I agree that it seems obvious, but drawing such a conclusion, no matter how obvious, is not ours to make. Marteau (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

FactCheckerEsq, Please don't mark new comments as Minor edits: Help:Minor_edit#When_not_to_mark_an_edit_as_a_minor_edit. This probably isn't the best place to jump into Wikipedia, Biographies of living persons are subject to the strictest and most complicated rules of Wikipedia. Attempting to argue the accusations against Tyson are True won't work here, or anywhere on Wikipedia. Many people find it surprising, but trying to argue Truth on Wikipedia is useless at best. Note the comment from Marteau above. He's a lead proponent of having this material in the article, and even he's telling you that your argument conflicts with a core policy against Original Research. I hope you do join us in building a bigger better encyclopedia, I'm just saying that a contentious issue on a Biography of a living person is a really bad place to start. I'm commenting here rather than your userpage for the benefit of other people new to Wikipedia. Jump in, join us, I just strongly suggest not trying to do that in the middle of complicated policy analysis on someone's Biographical article. Alsee (talk) 22:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on: No evidence exists

• Change "No evidence exists that Bush said that." to "Sean Davis of thefederalist.com asserts Tyson butchered the quote."

We shouldn't be asserting that "No evidence exists" based upon the current sourcing.

The source says "Tyson butchered the quote." Alsee (talk) 16:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a valid inference to assume that if a recent president of the United States said something in a public forum someone would be able to find it easily and if they have not probably didn't happen. That said, I understand the objection and think the proposed rewording would be a good idea. I'd prefer to let someone else make the change, if a consensus agrees--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Your request omits the Weekly Standard also saying "nothing about this anecdote is true." and thus is an incomplete representation of the state of the issue. There are complaints that The Federalist is not a reliable source (of which I do not agree, but those complaints are reason to also include The Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is a reliable as per Wikipedia concensus). I propose the fix read: "Sean Davis of thefederalist.com asserts the quote is "blatantly false"' The Weekly Standard says, 'nothing about this anecdote is true. " along with the citations of course. Marteau (talk) 17:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

We must follow the refs, thus Marteau's proposal seems best. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the edit request template as per:

• Edit requests to fully protected pages should only be used for edits that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus. If the proposed edit might be controversial, discuss it on the protected page's talk page before using this template.

I mentioned in a previous section (Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#No_evidence_exists_that_Bush_said_that_.3C--_Failed_verification) that the sentence fails verification and should at the very least be changed immediately or removed entirely (remember this is a WP:BLP). Saying "it is a valid inference to assume" does not override the fact that a source should reflect clearly whatever statement it is being used upon which does not happen in this case. The Weekly Standard saying "nothing about this anecdote is true" is absolutely not a source that can be used simply because it does not say what the statement says (leaving aside the WP:RS status of TWS which I challenge)

As I stated above, my proposal is:

• Sean Davis of thefederalist.com asserts the quote is "blatantly false".

which is similar to Alsee's initial proposal and to Marteau's proposal above but doesn't include TWS's article. Also note that the section currently includes two more comments on this issue which are properly sourced and attributed, unlike what happens with TWS statement, which is more than enough commentary on this. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 23:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• I concur with Marteau's proposal above - the community has deemed TWS a reliable source in the past. Kelly ^hi! 14:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I also concur with Marteau's proposal above.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment: WP:WEIGHT/WP:UNDUE

In regards to the issue of him supposedly fabricating quotes. The only discussion I would like to have is on it's weight and if it is really important enough to include in this article. A simple up or down vote will do, but please do not derail this RFC into other subjects. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 14:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose As the Weekly Standard itself observes: " After Davis reported this falsehood, not a single mainstream outlet picked up on the story..." http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/cosmically-dishonest_805319.html Not one mainstream outlet thought this was important enough to cover. So why would we include it here? Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:57, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

And the issue has been picked up in today's Washinton Post. That seems plenty mainstream. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

The Volkl Conspiracy is a blog hosted by the Washington Post. It's not the Washington Post. The blog contributors vary, but I would not describe Jonathan Adler as "mainstream". Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

"The Volkl Conspiracy" can be considered a reliable source for Wikipedia as per WP:NEWSBLOG which reads: "Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process" Marteau (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

The issue on the table is weight, not reliability. As this issue gets picked up by more outlets, it becomes more noteworthy. IMHO, it was clearly not sufficiently notable when originally added last week. Now it has garnered more attention and may meet notability requirements. My opinion is that we were premature in adding the material, and that in a month or so it will become much clearer just how notable the whole issue is. A go-slow approach is the right one here. We are not in the news business and there's no bonus for being first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr swordfish (talk • contribs) 16:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Volokh Conspiracy is a blog with no editorial oversight. As per WP:NEWSBLOG it's only attributable as the opinion of the author. That does not appear to have much weight under Undue Weight policy. Alsee (talk) 22:29, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Volokh Conspiracy is highly regarded, has a good reputation and an extensive track record. Because it has not yet been vetted for reliability on Wikipedia does not mean we can simply say it is an unacceptable source. It needs to go to RfQ. As it was published under the name of the blog, it will almost certainly undergo a RfQ regarding it's reliability as "Volokh Conspiracy" and not the individual author (the blog has different authors at different times). Marteau (talk) 22:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

...it has not yet been vetted for reliability... Yes, it has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_19#The_Volokh_Conspiracy_.28legal_blog.29 "Resolved: Not an appropriate source for a WP:BLP." - Mr. Swordfish (talk) 18:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

neutral/weak support - two things have changed since my original vote: the article has been edited to comply with BLP, and more sources have weighed in on the matter thus increasing its notability. Folks, this is a moving target and covering breaking news is not what we are here to do. Let's move slowly and deliberately rather than trying to do a play-by-play of the latest happenings in the blogosphere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr swordfish (talk • contribs) 20:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - it's been a few more news cycles and not one mainstream news source has picked up the story. After Adler's blog post on the Volokh Conspiracy I'm sure the WaPo newsroom is aware of it, but they took a pass. As did every other newspaper other than the Tampa Bay editorial page. Apologies for the waffling, but when facts change I change my opinion. If it becomes more widely reported I'll change my mind again but for now I don't see how it meets notability/weight. Other shoes may drop later, and if they do I'll reconsider again. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• weakly oppose for now Its undue currently. That could change quickly. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
  • neutral/weak support based on the improved sources, but if included, WP:WEIGHT dictates coverage should be very short. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support The context of the quote and the point being made are sufficient for inclusion. The fact that he apparently has done this many times shows a pattern which cannot be ignored. Arzel (talk) 15:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

You appear to be basing your inclusion criteria on your personal feelings about what the subject should do, and that wikipedia should WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Wikipedia isn't here to do that, our inclusion criteria is one of due weight. Second Quantization (talk) 09:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Support It is emerging NdGT does this "fake quote" act in a serial fashion and does to so smear, insult and demean groups and individuals with which he disagrees. The sloppiness of some of these assertions is egregious because it is not hard to come up with a real quote of a congressman or newspaper headline saying something stupid or scurrilous. The fact Tyson is a scientist makes it worse. He uses these faux quotes to prove points in a pseudo-scientific manner. He should be held to a higher account, therefore, than a comedian or a lecturer whose work is not as grounded in facts and solid research. There is a plethora of material on this page praising and lauding his work: these acts of false quotes call into question the rigor his research, his honesty and veracity on all matters on which he advocates and his general integrity as a scientist and authority on complex subjects. There is a page dedicated to "bushisms", which are merely malapropisms and misspeech: Tyson's statements are deliberate, rehearsed, repeated many times and used in the service of pushing an agenda. Certainly this is important material. 108.33.46.98 (talk)

Out of process RfC Not only is it phrased in a very POV manner, it includes direct argumentation per se, and is clearly an attempt to short-circuit the ongoing discussions on this talk page. Nor do RfCs ever seek "up or down votes" as they are a discussion where policy issues count for far more than accusations that unnamed editors are somehow seeking to include opinions which are disliked by other editors. See WP:NPOV to see just why elimination of criticism of a person is just as bad as stressing positive fluff about a person. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Collect: I completely agreeon both points. I'd like to shut this RfC down and restart it with a neutral wording. Collect (or anyone really) suggest a neutral wording? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It does not need to be shut down, IMO. Everyone who have chimed in has discussed it and not simply upped it or downed it. And everyone so far seems to be aware of the issues, despite the loaded question. The question could be rephrased, though, by simply editing it, not shutting it down entirely. Marteau (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

The talk page is messy and fractured. This is too difficult to understand what is going on for people who might be looking at it. Hence why I just wanted one place with plenty of input on a specific aspect. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 15:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

"Not only is it phrased in a very POV manner", what? The RfC by Zero Serenity is completely neutral, what are you talking about? Where do you see a POV in there? Gaba ^(talk) 15:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

'Add: apparently Collect was referring to the original RfC which showed the editor's vote. Gaba ^(talk) 15:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't when I wrote it. Since I am mentioned by name in the articles we refer to (not reference specifically), I'm unfortunately very much involved in this whole riff of shenanigans. I mentioned my position since it is somewhat obvious now, but might not have been to people jumping in now. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 15:27, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly support including it. I don't get the issue of UNDUE here. It isn't going in the lede or the top of the article. But it's a relevant piece of information. Anectdotally, when I posted about this on Facebook, I got numerous replies saying things like "In my view, NdG is a national treasure and you can often tell by who's going out of their way to discredit someone whether they fear that someone." He has a legion of fans who see him as a valid source of information, and if he has a record of making things up to "prove" a point, it's more than relevant. Again, no one is even talking about making a section called "Tyson's complicated relationship with the truth", or anything of that sort. That would arguably be too much. But trying to exclude any mention of it whatsoever strikes me as a pretty POV move. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, I believe that it's significant enough for inclusion - particularly now that Bush's aides/speechwriters/press folks have commented on the controversy, including Ari Fleischer, Matthew Scully, John McConnell, Michael Gerson, and David Frum. Kelly ^hi! 15:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I arrived here via Wikipedia:Press coverage 2014. It is way to early to be holding this RfC. I suggest that it is put on ice for a month after that time it will be possible to see if this story has any legs. After that it is likely that an RfC will become irrelevant (one way or the other). -- PBS (talk) 15:16, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support. Tyson, in addition to being a scientist, is a professional speaker and educator. Including well-documented information about his including in his lectures, on repeated occasions, incorrect, inflammatory material about a then current President directly pertains to his performance in his profession and the quality and content of a product he sells in public and for which he is known. Should Wikipedia go on and on and on about this matter? No, THAT would be undue weight. Including one paragraph? That is absolutely not undue weight. Marteau (talk) 15:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Abstain – Events surrounding this process have caused me to question the very credibility of this process and I'll not lend my name in support of anything surrounding it. Marteau (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose so far it is a non-notable commentary that begun in an obscure media site (thefederalist.com) and was picked up with even more obscure sites/blogs. If it gets wider coverage in reliable sources, it could be added then. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 15:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC) Support In light of the story having been picked up by TWP and TDB I'm changing my vote. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 15:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC) Back to oppose, the WP is a blog and TDB a single article comment on the issue. No further RS s have picked up on this. Gaba ^(talk) 18:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• It has been picked up by The Week - see the link in the 'Resources' section. Kelly ^hi! 19:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Contrary to the remarks immediately above this has been picked up by major mainstream RS the Washinton Post, The Daily Beast (formerly Newsweek), The Tampa Tribune, The Weekly Standard, The Washington Free Beacon, and others in addition to the (supposedly obscure) legal website. This suggests that this is not undue. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:UNDUE. This is thus far a relatively insignificant story pushed by a fringe attack blog, and people from the attack blog have themselves complained that this story has not received sufficient mainstream coverage. While there seems to be abundant commentary on this issue, there is insufficient neutral, factual coverage of this from RSes to even say for sure what exactly the issue is. Gamaliel (talk) 16:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: If you don't think The Weekly Standard and The Washington Post are reliable enough to cite (as well as the commentaries from Bush officials on the matter), you must be either non-neutral about this topic yourself or completely off sight. And it's even sadder that this is coming from an admin. -- Veggies (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think there's anything sad about being cautious when BLPs are involved. No harm is done if we wait for higher quality sources, but harm can be done if we rush to put inadequate sources in the article. Gamaliel (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

In case anyone missed it the first time, The Volokh Conspiracy is NOT the same thing as the Washington Post - the VC is a collaborative blog that is hosted on the WAPO site, but it is not a WP:NEWSBLOG as the WAPO has no editorial control over it and it is not subject to the same level of fact checking as their normal news operation. Also, WP:AGF. Thanks. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't really wish to weigh in on the larger 'controversy' here, but WP:NEWSBLOG concerns verifiability, as does your concern about fact checking. But isn't the issue here whether or not the article in the VC (along with others, like the DB article) establish that it is notable? The reference to WP:NEWSBLOG seems like a red herring (and, in any event, I'm really not convinced that blogs like the Volokh Conspiracy aren't exactly what was intended by WP:NEWSBLOG -- certainly the policy doesn't establish a bright line criterion relating to editorial oversight standards... but this is neither here nor there).PStrait (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Reading through the articles in question, I find there are allegations of impropriety that should be acknowledged. In particular, Volokh is a serious voice and should be given weight. While there may be a reasonable explanation for all this, it does appear that NdGT made politically charged attacks that aren't substantiated by the record. As one of the nation's pre-eminent scientists, this sort of behavior is hardly beneath notice. Hopefully NdGT will respond to these stories and we can find out his side of it. Ronnotel (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose for all the material except the stuff on GWB. Per several editors above, the stuff on what GW Bush said or didnt say has elicited commentary from numerous noteworthy sources and, as such, i think it passes WP:UNDUE and i SUPPORT its inclusion. The rest, jury duty, possible quote fabrication, etc, i dont think has reached the point of having sufficient relevance to the subject to warrant inclusion just yet. If the story picks up, ill likely change my view. Bonewah (talk) 18:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support A few sentences surely wouldnt unbalance the article and it does seem noteworthy at this point. WeldNeck (talk) 19:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Support because it is now RS and notable enough that any biographer should mention it, even if it is not yet lining bird cages in twenty media markets. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support The WaPo (Adler) article is rather the icing on the cake for anyone insisting that "only right-wing sites have noted the problems". And it is not libelous in any way about Tyson to note this problem. Collect (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose. A borderline case. I would comment that "The Volkl Conspiracy" does not fall under WP:NEWSBLOG as it's not subject to editorial control, but similar to the posts on the unfortunately named PostEverything. If this showed up in "Right Turn" or one of their actual newsblogs, this would be a different story. a13ean (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Now clear this is only going to be in fringe sources and not picked up by broader RS. a13ean (talk) 03:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Your point about Volkl not being editorially controlled by the Post is valid. That would leave the Volkl's reliability to stand or fall on it's own reputation. It is generally held in high regard. While it has a reputation for taking a usually libertarian stance, it also has a reputation for accuracy and sobriety without resorting to the kind of hyperbole common on other opinion columns. Being authored variously by over fifteen law professors, I am confident that any seeking of concensus regarding it's reliability would end in it's favor. Marteau (talk) 15:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I have tremendous respect for Eugene Volokh and I have cited the VC in Wikipedia articles, but I have always treated it as a self-published source by "experts" in the field, with all the usual cautions of using SPS's. e.g. "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I was originally in favor of inclusion, but the more that I've thought about, the more I believe that it is WP:UNDUE weight. There are literally thousands and thousands of articles about this topic. Not every little tidbit should be in the article. If this was something important, then you would see a lot more sources covering. The fact that this has gotten very little attention by reliable sources is a strong indication of its importance. Aside from the WP:UNDUE, I'm concerned about the sourcing. The two sources being cited appear to be opinion pieces, not straight news reporting. WP:BLP says to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources". I don't see how this meets the tough sourcing requirements set forth by BLP. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, with modification This should be mentioned as part of a larger critical narrative described by the National Review (“what Tyson and his acolytes have ended up doing is blurring the lines between politics, scholarship, and culture—thereby damaging all three") and the Weekly Standard. There is no need to isolate the critique in a single incident. Shii (tock) 22:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Why would Wikipedia promote the singular, and some might say, unbalanced POV of the National Review, by framing this issue in terms of their opposition to Tyson? Your argument for support is a direct violation of NPOV. Viriditas (talk) 19:18, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a person (who spends their life public speaking) ad-libs and butchers / miss-remembers / inverts a quote, apparently one time; no significant coverage in major sources. That's not a pattern, that's 100% attack. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the refs are about a pattern not a single event. Capitalismojo (talk) 01:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If you watch the video, you'll see Tyson refer to his laptop computer while "quoting" Bush. This was no "ad lib" or "misremember". And it was a regular routine in his speeches, not a "one time" thing. Marteau (talk) 02:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose New sources mentioned in the above commentary are indeed generally accepted reliable sources. But, the refs are largely from opinion columns (op-eds). These are not reliable sources as to fact even if the containing news publications are. It is WP:UNDUE to accuse someone of being a “serial fabulist” based on such weak evidence in a WP:BLP. Objective3000 (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

This RfC isn't about calling someone a "serial fabulist". It is concerning whether the widely reported issue should be included in the article. Now that there is a straight news account in Physics Today about the controversy it seems clear that this issue of reliable sources is moot. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:11, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose to documenting every radical piece of speculation posted on childish biased blogs every time someone has a bone to pick with a celebrity. The controversy exists in a fringe section of the blogosphere and one notable source parroting the block (Volokh Conspiracy). Take any celebrity and we can find angry hostile blog articles trashing them...even ones that are mentioned by a few newspapers and columns. Still no weight as of yet. Perhaps in the days/weeks to come. --Shabidoo | Talk 01:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Not so much. See Physics Today, academic publisher, straight news about the controversy. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:11, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Reliable (though questionably reliable, as the Washington Post article is editorial) sources are just citing unreliable sources, which does not make the reliable sources reliable. If a genuinely reliable source published their own reactions and research instead of citing, verbatim, large chunks of the unreliable sources, then maybe it would have more weight. Lingnik (talk) 02:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: This is the stupider of positions. No source could possibly be reliable, then—even if reported on by a reliable publication. The truth is all sources are unreliable initially until they've gone through the presumed scrutiny of a journalistic vetting. If not, I have to ask whether (had Wikipedia existed back then) you would oppose the disclosures of the Watergate scandals because they came from a shadowy figure in a parking garage. -- Veggies (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• First, WP:CIVIL. Second, I won't conflate the present issue of the WP posting an editorial blog in support of another editorial which uses the absence of evidence and unverified claims as its principal argument, with the investigative journalism of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. Finally, I feel your argument relies on the assumption that no source can be reliable, which I believe to be untrue. The Federalist could have been a reliable source if they had couched it in stated facts and questions left unanswered by the subject instead of mixed personal attacks, genuine inconsistencies (grams), and "because Tyson hasn't cited a source in his (informal) talks, and we can't find a source, he must be lying". My argument relies on the assumption that the Federalist is unreliable, and not fit for blind reprinting. WP:NEWSBLOG's litmus test for WP:RELIABLE points to the source's editorial/column following a fact-checking process, which I think you label as the "presumed scrutiny of a journalistic vetting." Evidence of meeting this does not appear present in either the the Federalist's columns, nor in the Post's blog. Thus, WP:WEIGHT is undue. Lingnik (talk) 19:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• You must not have read what I wrote. Let's say The Federalist is not an RS (and I agree with that). If another news organization takes an unreliable source, investigates its claims, and publishes its own conclusions, it does not, by the fact of having been inspired by an unreliable source, make its conclusions unreliable. NEWSBLOG's litmus test is not exclusively the organization's fact-checking policies. If the blog is written by professionals, leeway is given over whether to use it as a source or not. -- Veggies (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Wikipedia is not a blog. If this issue needs analysis and attention at this point in time, see WP:NOTNEWS and pointers to a sister project there. Gryllida (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Coment:Sorry, I don't see how NOTNEWS applies here. This is not a breaking story or an exclusive article on the issue. You'll need to elaborate your disagreement. -- Veggies (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - there are additional reliable sources who have done their own research on the issue and not simply referred to the Federalist article...Robert Draper of The New York Times has written "from my research Tyson has hallucinated this post-9/11 Bush verbiage"[12] while Terry Moran, Chief Foreign Correspondent for ABC news, has written "I covered Bush then. Never heard him say it."[13] Kelly ^hi! 07:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

My guess is that it wont be long before those guys write something more 'official' than a tweet. I hope that when that happens the editors here that oppose due to the fact that 'its just blogs reporting this' will change their minds. Bonewah (talk) 13:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support With modification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:8C00:C7F:3C7D:3DCD:7FDE:66D9 (talk) 07:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, but... I am only here for the RFC and don't know anything about the quote thing. The critical question is not whether the matter gets included, but how. It would have to be suitably supported with adequate citations, in suitable context, but without synthesis, and most certainly without even discussing judgement, let alone passing judgement. At present there is no question of including it except in passing, but depending on how the issue grows publicly, it might justify a section on its own. But not until it justifies a section or any extended discussion. JonRichfield (talk) 08:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I just don't see the point of this. The guy misremembered who said what once, so what. Happens to everyone. It's an utterly trivial piece of information, drummed up as a controversy by American politicos with too much time on their hands. For inclusion in the article, this would need to be an repeated offense picked up by something more substantial than conspiracy blogs, even if such blogs are published by the Washington Post. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Tyson did not "misremember" "once"... it was multiple times over several years. Furthermore, it was not an issue of him "misremembering"... in the video (which remains linked on his Hayden Planetarium blog) he refers to his laptop computer during his "misremembering" and furthermore draws a conclusion that Bush was trying to cause religious division BASED on this incorrect quote. Marteau (talk) 12:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You refer to the Volokh Conspiracy blog as a "conspiracy blog". I think it needs to be clarified that the "conspiracy" here refers to the fact that the blog consists of over fifteen law professors who contribute to or have contributed to the blog and are therefore "conspiring". THEY are why the blog is called "The Volokh Conspiricy"... not because they discuss conspiracy theories . Marteau (talk) 13:08, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the Volokh site, having followed it closely for years, back when it was a stand-alone blog and now that it is part of the Washington Post. The choice of the word "conspiracy" was a bit of an inside joke; the site in no way should be characterized as a conspiracy site. It is a highly respected law blog, including many highly respected contributors, many of whom have argued before the Supreme Court.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I have also been an avid reader of the Volokh Conspiracy for at least a decade, and I echo your comments. That said, having read many many posts there on topics from cabbages to kings I think I can say with confidence that a topic being discussed there does not automatically make it rise to the level of notability or weight for inclusion here. If something is making the rounds of blogosphere gossip it is likely that one of the ~15 VC contributors will write a post about it. Our bar is (or should be) higher than that. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Clearly not notable; if we covered every time someone blogged about their ideological opponents, our pages would be unreadable. None of the sources remotely approach the bar that would be necessary to say that the quote or Jackson's mention of it in his blog have any relevance to what makes Tyson noteworthy. Remember WP:NOTNEWS ; even being mentioned in a reputable source is not sufficient, because what we need is a reputable source stating that this is significant to Tyson's overarching story. Genuine scandals have such sources in abundance. Without that, placing it in his article implicitly makes the argument that Jackson's arguments have significance in terms of Tyson's overall public image and persona, which is not attested to by any source that can reasonably be considered reliable on the question. --Aquillion (talk) 05:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

What about his being called a slanderer? I'll have to review the other reliable sources to say what other adjectives are being applied to him, but isn't the content of his charater and the nature of how he speaks to groups in public relevant to his 'overarching story'? Are we to just limit coverage in his article to his "overall public image and persona" as you phrase it? Because these accusations go beyond his career and his "public persona" and address who he is as a man, and what could be more pertinent to a man's "overarching story"? How can we justify including such facts as he was captain of his high school wrestling team, but exclude his being accused of slandering a current President? How is him being a wrestler part of his "overarching story" but this is not? Because if a man has in fact slanderd, repeatedly, another man in public, and therefore could be labeled a 'slanderer', how can that not be considered part of his "overarching story" and how can how a man conducts himself in public not be considered biographic?Marteau (talk) 06:24, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment As examples of the reliability of some of the major sources cited here; if you read articles in The Federalist, Weekly Standard, and National Review linked to by this page, you will see Wikipedia editors compared to text-burners, Pravda, jihadists systemically murdering and beheading Christians, Jews, and Muslims, Aristotelian acolytes that placed Galileo under house arrest, and the persecutions of Christians and crucification of Christ. If these sources are accurate, don’t you feel that we should turn our attention to finding which of the editors on this page are beheading people? Are these really considered reliable sources? Objective3000 (talk) 15:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The Federalist is the site which used the "jihadist" word and the "Pravda" word and the rest of that nonsense that follows and I agree The Federalist has issues with hyperbole and context. From what I have seen of it lately, I can no longer consider them a reliable source. Howeve, The Weekly Standard and the National Review's status as reliable sources stands, in my opinion, and in the opinion of Wikipedia concensus in general. Not to mention the other sources involved in this issue. Marteau (talk) 16:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Collapsing. Let's keep it civil and on-topic.

Furthermore, your statement, "don’t you feel that we should turn our attention to finding which of the editors on this page are beheading people?" is wilfully misrepresenting The Federalist's implication and words, which made it clear the behedings were occuring in Iraq. Using this talk page as an opportunity to do schtick comedy is inappropriate. Marteau (talk) It's been an entire day since you apologized for claiming that I willfully misrepresented something on a completely different subject.:) It may have been schtick, but The Federalist published the comparison of WP editors to jihadists beheading people -- not me. I’m sorry if my use of humor offended you. But, humor has been used in debate for centuries. Even in arguments before the Supreme Court. Objective3000 (talk) 16:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC) I did not apologize for claiming you misrepresented something. You DID misrepresent something, and I'm glad you corrected it in the article in question. I apologized for my tone. Perhaps you could apologize for stalking me in return. Marteau (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC) I misrepresented nothing before or now. And stalking? That's an odd accusation. Read what you wrote on my Talk Page and my polite responses to your personal attacks. You really need to read WP:CIV. If you want to continue this, I suggest going back to my Talk Page instead of disturbing the converstation here. I apologize to the other editors if my comment was the cause of this disruption. Objective3000 (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Marteau accused me of willful misrepresentation and inappropriate behavior, and then undid my response to these accusations. If this is allowed under WP rules, I’m beginning to think The Federalist has a point.Objective3000 (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC) As per WP:TALK "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page(accessible via the talk or discussion tab) is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page." I deleted everything from Objective3000 saying, "It's been an entire day since you apologized for claiming that I willfully misrepresented something on a completely different subject.:)" on. Objective3000's defense for including a joke in this page (that comedy has been used in debate for centuries) followed his off-topic lead in and was also deleted. Another editor restored it, saying "Deleting comments on an article talk page is a NO-NO!" That is not always the case. I delete this as per WP:TALKO which says under the "Off-Topic posts subsection" which says. "It is still common to simply delete gibberish, comments or discussion about the article subject (as opposed to its treatment in the article), test edits, and harmful or prohibited material as described above." and "Another form of refactoring is to move a thread of entirely personal commentary between two editors to the talk page of the editor who started the off-topic discussion." So deletion and sometimes moving material which does not contribute to the improvement of the article can in fact be deleted. That said, I will not delete it again and leave it to other non-involved editors to decide if they want this to remain. Marteau (talk) 18:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC) That's OK. I'll read all about this discussion in the next issue of The Federalist.Objective3000 (talk) 18:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Perhaps. Nonetheless, deleting things from talk pages which do not contribute to the betterment of an article is not uncommon and falls within the guidelines. Marteau (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Comment on talk page deletions: Here's the policy vebatim: "If a discussion goes off-topic (per the above subsection #How to use article talk pages), editors may hide it using the templates {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}} or similar templates. This normally stops the off-topic discussion, while allowing people to read it by pressing the "show" link. At times, it may make sense to move off-topic posts to a more appropriate talk page. It is still common to simply delete gibberish, comments or discussion about the article subject (as opposed to its treatment in the article), test edits, and harmful or prohibited material as described above" What Objective said was not gibberish, FORUM talk about deGrasse Tyson, a test edit, an ad hominem, a legal or physical threat, an exposition of personal details, or an impersonation of an admin or other editor. Those are the only reasons for deleting commentary from an article talk page (and even then, I would be extremely frugal with redaction). Your attempts to cover up what was a clear and evident violation of both talk page guidelines and the natural right of free expression are pathetic. -- Veggies (talk) 19:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC) I acted to remove a discussion which did, in fact, contain ad hominems despite your saying it did not. While I'm at it, let me add trolling to the categorization as well, which is also grounds for deletion of talk page additions. The thread in question served absolutely no purpose towards contributing to the development of the article, and deletion of such material is common on Wikipedia. And by the way, when you said in your first sentence "Here's the policy" you should have said "Here's the guidelines" which is what they actually are. Marteau (talk) 20:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Since you're going to keep commenting, I'm going to expand this collapse-box so the discussion can be public. "...did, in fact, contain ad hominems..." [Citation needed]. The only thing I can construe as a personal attack (though an inconsequentially weak one) is you accusing Objective of stalking. "...let me add trolling to the categorization as well..." It may be a bit off-topic, but what Objective wrote was not trolling by a long shot. "...thread in question served absolutely no purpose towards contributing..." If you do say so yourself. "...deletion of such material is common..." Deletion of a marginally off-topic tangent on an article talk page is certainly not common. I can't remember the last time someone unilaterally deleted someone else's comments. -- Veggies (talk) 21:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC) I am not going to get into a point-by-point explaination to you on these, because I have no need to prove anything to you. I will just demonstrate two examples of people's comments not being collapsed but deleted in talk pages, just so that interested observers know I did nothing unheard of. My choices are from articles suffering from much vandalism, and are easy and quick pickings which is why I chose them as examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHomophobia&diff=533195173&oldid=533195014 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThe_Holocaust&diff=618186144&oldid=618184089 Marteau (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the collapse. I am constantly amazed at the well-thought procedures and rules of WP. Continuing:

OK, we’ve agreed that The Federalist is shaky as a RS. Let’s look at the other two:

The Weekly Standard appears to simply use The Federalist article for the claims relevant to this page, and then adds a lot of insults. Quotes from the Weekly Standard article: “he’s hawking something liberal America desperately wants: the sense of satisfaction that comes from pretending you’re smarter than others, without actually thinking too hard.” “Perhaps not surprisingly, Tyson is an obnoxious atheist….“ “baseless attacks on faith and climate-change credulity.”

The National Review also appears to depend on The Federalist article for the claims relevant to this page, and then adds a lot of insults, including a ref to this:. “he is the fetish and totem of the extraordinarily puffed-up “nerd” culture that has of late started to bloom across the United States. One part insecure hipsterism, one part unwarranted condescension, the two defining characteristics of self-professed nerds are (a) the belief that one can discover all of the secrets of human experience through differential equations and (b) the unlovely tendency to presume themselves to be smarter than everybody else in the world.”

These articles reek of bias, and go back to one source. The source that compared Wikipedia editors to jihadists beheading people. Obviously, there are other refs here. But, some sources, right/left/up or down, make no attempt at balance. Objective3000 (talk) 19:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

"Reliable sources" are not required to be unbiased or balanced and cannot be disqualified as reliable simply because they show a bias. As pointed out in WP:BIASED "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." Additionaly, both sources make statements above and beyond what they quote from The Federalist and they dont' all "go back to one source"; they make indepedent statements without qualifying and they stand alone. For example the Weekly Standard says, "But here’s the real problem—nothing about this anecdote is true.". That statement stands alone and is the assertion of The Weekly Standard. Statements such as that most certainly are citeable. Marteau (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course biased sources can be the best possible sources of different viewpoints (when it’s their viewpoints and not their interpretations of others’). But, not of facts. Objective3000 (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:BIASED does indeed address the citation of viewpoints and not facts. However, I can find no policy or guidelines which disqualifis the citation of concrete fact (i.e. not related to viewpoints) from biased sources. If you can find one I'd appreciate it, because otherwise, these sources meet the reliablity standards as codified in policy and guideline. Marteau (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Not of facts? That would disqualify pretty much every source there has ever been. I guarantee that no matter what the source, there is a a set of people that feel that source is biased. What matters is not whether the source is biased, but if it is reliable. I.e. does it have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Existence of bias may speak to reliability, but it doesnt preclude it.Bonewah (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, you have to at least pretend to be factual. Comparing this page to the crucifixion of Christ goes beyond what we normally think of as hyperbole. Objective3000 (talk) 21:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That's true. You and I have already disqualified the site that made that comparison. The Federalist. Marteau (talk) 21:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• WP:Canvass ALERT [14] [15] - The original source website linked directly to our talk page, twice, wanting his content inserted. He's doing everything he can to gin up controversy and thus far has spectacularly failed outside the blogosphere. His biggest catch so far is volokh-conspiracy, and that's still a blog with no editorial oversight.

Oppose - We pick up the story when the news does. He wants to pick a beef with Wikipedia, but we follow the news, we don't lead. If he has a beef with the news ignoring this story then he can take up the issue with them. (edit) Undue Weight Policy mandates significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. As a blogosphere story it's not even allowed in. Alsee (talk) 22:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Neutral, still advise waiting. - VERY thin on weight for a bio inclusion. Still severely troubled by the original source WP:Canvassing our talk pages demanding inclusion. We should have a guideline to actively oppose that. I still think this is a tempest in a sewerpot, but I see Physics Today covering it. Just about everything else we have is Blog, if anything goes in it should be centered around Physics Today coverage as, by far, our best quality source. Alsee (talk) 08:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Support -- The honchos at The Washington Post have had a day to toss Jonathan H. Adler's piece, and have refrained from doing do. One may therefore surmise that they approve of it.--Froglich (talk) 22:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you understand the relationship between the VC and the WAPO. The VC has complete editorial control of what is posted there. The WAPO cannot remove or change an individual post, it's an all-or-nothing deal. One can't imply approval from the fact that the WAPO have honored their agreement to cede complete editorial control to the blog writers. The VC is editorially independent of the WAPO - their areement is one of distribution and advertizing revenue. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 00:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

That makes it a simple blog, according to policy. . And policy says blogs "are largely not acceptable." That does not ban them but leaves wiggle room which I personally give them given their reputation, but in all honesty, a libertarian blog criticizing Tyson stands about a snowballs chance of getting the thumbs up in an RfC, making it look to me like Volokh is not going to survive being a cite. Marteau (talk) 00:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

If "non-expert" new-aggregation blogs like The Huffington Post -- and that odious propaganda mill Media Matters -- are kosher as reference sources at Wikipedia, then Volokh absolutely passes muster given that its entire roster of writers consists of working legal professors (and a smattering of lawyers), many of considerable notability. When this article comes off admin-only status, I will support WAPO/Volokh as RS.--Froglich (talk) 02:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The VC was self-published for abut a dozen years from 2002 to 2013. As of this January, Eugene Volokh entered into a distribution and advertizing revenue sharing arrangement with the WAPO, and a key point of the agreement was that the VC stay editorially independent. My take is that it was a self-published source until January of this year, and the relationship with the WAPO doesn't change that in any substantial way so it remains a self-published source. Moreover, since Eugene Volokh doesn't exercise editorial control over his co-contributors, their contributions should be evaluated as self-published and evaluated as RS or not based on the individual contributor, not on the overall VC. There are guidelines for citing self-published sources, and I have cited the VC without any qualms when it falls within those guidelines. I don't think there's much more to discuss about the VC's status as a RS - it's self-published by experts in a certain field and should be treated as such. It's definitely not == WAPO. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 01:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I "understand the relationship" perfectly, and it is this: Volokh wouldn't be on WAPO in the first place if WAPO didn't generally like what the have to say. (The WAPO has recently been on a blogger collaboration binge, as they yield better stories than journalism school graduates and their ethical track-record is a known commodity. E.g., see also WAPO's recent association with The Agitator's Radley Balko. --Froglich (talk) 02:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose: Making in an error in a talk is worth chatting about in a blog, or internet discussion board. But it's hardly worth mentioning in a news article, let alone an encyclopedic entry. It seems a bit manufactured. The other criticisms are even more trivial. Using mock headlines to make a joke, for example. Best, Miguel Chavez (talk) 14:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment Considering the number of YouTube videos being used as WP:Primary sources and the personal blogs (like how to rock your baby), it seems quite incredulous to argue over the VC as a Blog within the WaPo. Additionally, in relation to WP:WEIGHT if YouTube is all that is required to establish weight then it is even more incredulous to claim undue in this instance. Large sections of this article are almost completely editors view of what is important via YouTube. If editors were so inclined, they should clean up the already many violations of existing RS and weight policies. Arzel (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

YouTube videos, by themselves, are not automatically reliable sources (see WP:NOYT). For the "Our God" video the fact that Tyson links to the video is enough to consider it reliable for citing what he said and how he said it. Marteau (talk) 02:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Who says what he said in the video is notable? It seems to be a common occurrence that some editor thinks it is important, yet there are no secondary sources to verify it is. Here he said something which cannot be verified as being true and it is being disregarded because the source reporting on it is "biased", yet there is a ton of information in this article that doesn't even have a source that would meet the weight requirement being leveled in this argument. Arzel (talk) 03:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"Who says what he said in the video is notable?" Wikipedia editors, ultimately are the judge of that, and that's what were're doing in this RfQ and this talk page. And you're right, this issue of the "Our God" speeches and the reactions to it is being held to a higher standard for inclusion than anything I have ever seen on Wikipedia. There are a number of reasons for increased scrutiny, but the most important one is that it is derogatory information about a living person. And yes, people are arguing that sources should not be used because they are "biased". They are wrong. Mere bias is not a valid reason for saying a source is not a RS, and any RfC which denied a source RS status for simply being biased would be a travesty. Marteau (talk) 03:30, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - If this was significant it would have been widely reported in reliable sources. Don;t include per WP:V and WP:UNDUE - Cwobeel (talk) 15:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - This is a significant part of Tyson's message, and it is factually incorrect. Roger (talk) 00:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is just another trivial episode in the American Kulturkampf of The Right Wing vs. Everything Science. We did not cover the original quotes in either this article nor in George W. Bush, and I don't see why we should include it now, especially not based on lousy sourcing. Also see WP:NOTNEWS. Does anyone here think this is still relevant in 5 years time? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

A history of lying will always be relevant.--Froglich (talk) 07:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no "history of lying". You can character assassinate anyone by simply reviewing every word they ever said or wrote. It's an ancient technique for discrediting a person. Did you know that according to an April 2013 article in Advanced Materials & Processes, Tyson was wrong when he tweeted that Thor's Hammer "weighs as much as a herd of 300 billion elephants." Actually, Marvel said it weighs 42.3 lb. Was Tyson lying? Viriditas (talk) 05:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

That is a pretty inflamatory remark. If anything the left should be upset by the careless making up of facts to support that meme because it works against your meme. The worst part is that many of the points that NGT makes about the misuse/misunderstanding of numbers and facts I have always found reasuring. Too bad this has made it difficult to believe if any of them are actually true, why so many defend this is quite astounding. Arzel (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

What part are you referring to that inflames (you)? And which meme are you referring to? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This story has not being picked up by standard mainstream sources, but does appear amongst blogs with an ideological skew and some local media. As such it fails WP:WEIGHT. I also suggest people read WP:NOTNEWS. Wikipedia bases coverage on the amount of coverage and that which is of lasting coverage. As it stands, the coverage is very small compared to other aspects of Neil deGrasse Tyson Some have been basing their conclusions on their own personal interpretations of the incident, which falls afoul of WP:BLP and standard policies. Second Quantization (talk) 09:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - there is a new source out today, this one from The Week.[16] Kelly ^hi! 13:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per WP:UNDUE. This is not being picked up by mainstream sources.Casprings (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support inclusion of the content. It has been discussed in numerous reliable sources and warrants recognition. As a side, it is absurd to suggest people must prove that Bush didn't say the quote in question. That is a logical fallacy that I am surprised so many people here would be making. Toa Nidhiki05 14:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I happen to think that some of the charges are true and some are false, but that is not relevant here. I should say that the RfC's wording saying that all that is required is "up or down" is not good. The way it is presented matters, not silly vote counting. Without an actual statement to include or not, I vote oppose. Kingsindian ♝♚ 20:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support If Tyson had sources for his quotations, someone would have found them by now. Also, Massimo Pigliucci did a brilliant takedown of Tyson's ignorance of philosophy in the Huffington Post, and that really needs to be inserted into this article as well.--TMD (talk) 04:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Here's a link to the Pigliucci Huffington article. Interesting reading, although I think Neil acquitted himself well.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTBATTLE. It's clear that this content is only included in the article as a means of politically attacking Neil. The quote was virtually unnoticed when it was made and is certainly not important enough to warrant being part of his biographical encyclopedia article. This article needs a good trimming as it is, and this would be one of the first parts I would cut. Kaldari (talk) 19:12, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The content currently in the article pertaining to this issue was added by me (save some minor tweaking and removals). I take issue with your saying it was added "as a means of politically attacking Neil", because as the one who added it, I can tell you that that was not my motive. I don't give a flying flip about politics... what I DO care about is how people held up as icons conduct themselves and the example they set. There are, to be sure, those who ARE politically blindly motivated by politics here and elsewhere and are in attack mode, just as there are those here and elsewhere who are defending him solely based on his politics. But just because the jackasses are out and raising a racket does not mean that everyone who thinks Tyson was out-of-line is a jackass. My edits in this case were not politically motivated, but motived by a belief that well-documented instances of how a man conducts himself in his professional life, how a man refers to other people in the course of his professional public presentations, and the quality and content of those presentations is most certainly pertinent to his overarching life story and belongs in his biography. If the fact that he was a wrestler belongs here, a well documented and well publicized instance of him repeatedly and without basis saying a president made a religiously motivated and divisive statement certainly belongs in his biography. You may disagree, but ascribing my addition to attack politics is incorrect and unwarranted. Marteau (talk) 19:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

"well documented and well publicized instance of him repeatedly and without basis saying a president made a religiously motivated and divisive statement...." Well, according to the Wikipedia article Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War, there are quite a few excellent sources saying Bush did just that. Objective3000 (talk) 20:05, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

"...without basis". I used those words, which you quoted, precisely and purposely. Those words are important, and go right to the heart of the matter here and the are the very basis for the criticism Tyson is receiving. The issue is that Tyson, in this particular instance, criticized Bush "without basis". Criticism of Bush made WITH basis, by others, regarding the run-up to the Iraq War are absolutely irrelevant and have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand and your citing them here in no way refutes anything I just said, as you seem to imply. Marteau (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

So, Tyson got the quote wrong. A quote suggesting that the President made religious comments that were divisive. But, on other occasions, on the same subject, in the same time period, it is well-documented that Bush made religious comments that were divisive. Basically saying that God told him to kill a lot of people of another religion. Bush made comments to the same effect as those claimed by Tyson. So, what is all this gnashing of teeth about? Why does this belong in an encyclopedia? Objective3000 (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Fake but accurate?[17] Kelly ^hi! 06:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, after looking at the mounds of sources that discuss the Tyson inaccurate quoting of former President G.W. Bush, as well as coverage in non-bias sources, there appears to be weight in this subject. That being said any content should be neutrally worded, and well referenced per BLP.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose, Soliciting swarming of a page should never be rewarded. Additionally, this is being done as part of an effort to discredit an opponent by well coordinated conservative sites. But even if we ignore that, the fact remains that this quote is only significant because the original commentator WANTED it to be and solicited sufficient media attention to make it notable. Prior to attempts by the Federalist to modify wikipedia, no reliable source mentioned the article at all, then Heartland Institute commentators coordinated attempts to discredit Wikipedia for not acting. If it MUST be included, then the context of WHY it was included should be added as well. Mystic55 (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support The charge of mis-attributing sources is a significant one for both people of science and public speakers, both of which Tyson acts as. Since the allegations of multiple and serial use of such errors was published in the.Federalist.com, there has been an edit war on WP, the allegations and the edit war has been picked up by multiple RS media sites, an editor actively opposing inclusion has initiated a AfD on the.Federalist.com, and Tyson has acknowledged the most significant of the charges. If it wasn't significant before, it is now - and should be included to give a complete picture of Tyson and his impact on science and the USA.Kerani (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• this is a joke right? completely undue -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support a brief mention. It's not like the quote fabrication would be a major part of the article, as it has been in Carl Cameron for the past ten years. Appalling hypocrisy, double-think and what-you-may-call-it, in my view. You oughta be ashamed. Andreas JN466 09:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the Carl Cameron page (never heard of him until now, and I've never worked on his wikipedia entry), I see that the incident you refer to is sourced to the New York Times and USA Today. If and when this incident gains that sort of coverage it will almost certainly go into the article. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't make me laugh. This article at present is laudatory from beginning to end, and you are perfectly happy to have neutral and positive content cited to YouTube, Vimeo, Ebony, Stephen Colbert, The Alcalde, The Daily Kos, Hayden Planetarium and IMDB. But when it comes to sourcing 20 words of non-flattering content in this 3,700-word hagiography, you baulk at using the Volokh Conspiracy, hosted at the Washington Post, The Daily Beast, The National Review, The Tampa Tribune, The Federalist, The Daily Caller, and the Washington Examiner? Shall we strip out all positive content then that doesn't meet your sourcing threshold? Andreas JN466 17:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I have never contributed to this article and am here for the Request for Comment. Someone asked my opinion on this matter and I'm providing it. I have not expressed any opinion on the rest of the article and likely won't. If you think there are things in the article that are either not adequately sourced or are given undue weight, bring it up elsewhere on the talk page. If you think it is laudatory give examples and suggest alternate wording to make it more neutral. You might be surprised how many editors who oppose this inclusion will go along. But you need to be specific.

I do think you may have a point in that violations of the biographies of living persons policy are much more likely to be flagged when the material is negative than when otherwise. But I don't think that's specific to this article. If you want to clean up any perceived WP:BLP violations on this page, bring it up on elsewhere the talk page.Mr. Swordfish (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The point is that it is not a BLP or Undue violation to have 20 words of critical comment in an overwhelmingly positive 3,700-word BLP, and that there is no policy in Wikipedia theory or practice that says that negative content must first make the New York Times or USA Today before being admitted, as you are implying. (However, it is quite likely a BLP violation to focus two-thirds or even 25% of a biography on a ten-year-old incident.) EOD. Andreas JN466 20:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

No one has implied that you must make the NYTimes or USA Today for anything. But, there must be sources that are better than we see here. It is certainly not a BLP vio for 25% of a biography to relate to a subject ten years past. There are articles on child actors where 90% of the article are devoted to decades old material. If you want to know the rules, they are available to everyone. Objective3000 (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• SUPPORT The Week, Physics Today and Tampa Tribune are as far as I can tell non-partisan unbiased reliable sources. That alone should make this not a problem of undue weight to include something (at least something small). But even if that was not enough, “reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective”, that means we must also include in the test for balance the The Weekly Standard , National Review , The Daily Caller , The Washington Examiner and the The Daily Beast at the very least (clearly RS’s), and maybe even Christian Post. Volokh Conspiracy is a highly respected award winning blog, with many of the individuals having argued before the Supreme Court, and Jonathan_H._Adler himself is highly respected and frequently cited in major media, even so the Volokh Conspiracy would NOT be appropriate to cite for a fact in a WP:BLP, but it may still (because of its well respected nature of the publication and individual publishing), provide some evidence that this is not a very tiny minority view (ie not WP:FRINGE), as it says in WP:UNDUE "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherent", and Jonathan_H._Adler is one such prominent adherent. The only question before us is does the article “fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources”. Reliable sources includes biased sources. There is a CLEAR significant viewpoint among reliable sources (assuming you include biased reliable sources), at least 7 WP:RS have stated that it is important event. Even significant minority viewpoints (assuming they are not WP:FRINGE or unsourced), should be included with proper weight and this is FAR from WP:FRINGE.--97.65.104.162 (talk) 01:43, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• SUPPORT 97.65.104.162 has said it well. Ditto. Andyvphil (talk) 04:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support Thought I had commented on this already, but I guess not. We are talking about the accusation that Tyson took quotes of a president of the united states out of context to make them look bad, an accusation that if true would go to a person's "overarching story". We have 3 non-biased WP:RS, and 7 total WP:RS commenting on its notability. We have a WP:SELFSOURCE as clear proof that an error was made, and that he felt it important enough to issue an apology. It deserves a mention in the story. --Obsidi (talk) 12:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. Neil deGrasse Tyson responded to it directly because it became a big enough issue to warrant it, regardless of how small it might have been at the start. News stories can evolve, and that would appear to be the case here. It should be referenced in a neutral way, but absolutely should be referenced. Chester Lunt (talk) 04:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion, object to improper RfC. The quotes should not be included because they are not notable other than the fact that certain political blogs have tried to manufacture outrage. The RfC is improper because the question is not neutral, nor is it clear exactly what we are being asked to support or oppose. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Note further coverage in Politico. Rich Lowry, October 1 2014, The Cult of Neil deGrasse Tyson. With some unflattering comments ("bullheaded gracelessness") about the nature of discussions on this page. Andreas JN466 09:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, Rich Lowry, noted conservative and climate change denier. Like I said, this is full court press. Heartland and Discovery are loving this. Viriditas (talk) 04:47, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support inclusion, written responsibly. The events were discussed on NPR today. Preventing inclusion of factual events that make national news provides ammunition to those who claim that Wikipedia editors are suppressing evidence. Wikipedia credibility is at stake. JeanLucMargot (talk) 03:57, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• The only problem with your argument is, well your entire argument: Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Ever. Wikipedia's credibility is not at stake, what's at stake is the ability of external lobby groups to alter perception and change Wikipedia. That the mainstream media reports on nonsense 24/7 in no way compels us to include that nonsense. Viriditas (talk) 04:30, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• He said "The events were discussed on NPR today" and that it made "national news." That is a significant viewpoint from a reliable source that this is an important topic, which means it would be WP:UNDUE NOT to include it. (Also please WP:DONTBITE)--Obsidi (talk) 13:13, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• There's no evidence the events were discussed in a significant manner on NPR. I show no documented record of this alleged news report, so it sounds like it was mentioned in passing, meaning it has no lasting encyclopedic value. Second, the entire argument made by JeanLucMargo proposes that verifibility demands inclusion, which is manifestly false per Wikipedia's house policies. Just because partisan lobby groups are working hard to spread this meme, doesn't mean we have to help them. Viriditas (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. The material fails every measurable encyclopedic standard of inclusion we use on Wikipedia. Both the Heartland and Discovery Institutes have been working tirelessly to attack Tyson, and this incident is only their latest salvo. According to one of their bloggers, Tyson misquoted Bush. There is no significance to this event and it hasn't changed anything about Tyson or his career. When we look closer at this incident, we find that Tyson and his show Cosmos have been under constant attack from the conservative right since it first aired; because these groups are incapable of attacking the science, they are relegated to attacking the man. Their goal is to construct an ad hominem that says, "You can't trust Tyson on science because he misquoted George Bush!" This is nothing but a manufactured controversy, and it is important to note that this isn't the first time they've done this, as they've been at it for several months, with both climate change deniers and creationists taking turns. Heartland's goal is to get people to doubt climate science, and Discovery's is to get people to doubt evolution. These are the true Merchants of Doubt, and here we see them in all their glory. If that's not an exercise in pure character assassination at the behest of Heartland and Discovery, I don't know what is. That's the real topic of significance, and it needs to be framed appropriately. Wikipedia must not be used as a conduit for the politics of personal destruction waged by climate change deniers and creationists. They're not going to go down without a fight; they will attack every last scientist who defends climate change and evolution, and they will continue this inquisition until they get their way. The line has to be drawn here or the virus of ignorance will spread to other areas of the encyclopedia. Viriditas (talk) 05:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• This is hardly just "according to one of their bloggers," Tyson himself admitted he misquoted bush. Even Salon (hardly a crazy right-wing source) said "Obviously, this is not just a minor factual quibble... Tyson has rightly taken a lot of grief... It’s an embarrassing admission for a man who just this year became a mainstream progressive hero in the aftermath of his successful “Cosmos” reboot. At the same time, it’s hard to complain that Tyson is getting a raw deal, or that he’s unfairly being maligned by right-wing journalists champing at the bit to defame a liberal icon. (They certainly are, but that doesn’t mean they’re wrong.) In truth, Tyson actually kind of deserves the dressing down." [18]. Now clearly WE shouldn't post such silliness as "You can't trust Tyson on science because he misquoted George Bush!" (A clear ad hominem attack), but that doesn't mean the rest isn't significant. As to the rest of your comments on the Heartland and Discovery, this is not a battle and this is not a forum to talk about the other things you think Heartland and Discovery are doing and how bad they are. --Obsidi (talk) 13:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• That Heartland and Discovery are behind the character assassination on Tyson is not only directly relevant, it is the only aspect of this entire story that is appropriate for an encyclopedia. That is to say, it is encyclopedic to cover the continuing, sustained attacks on scientists by climate change deniers and creationists. It is not, however, encyclopedia to mention that these same groups claimed Tyson misquoted Bush. That is irrelevant and undue. Furthermore, I am concerned that accounts like yours that have the majority of their contributions dedicated to pushing a POV on a BLP talk page are problematic. Viriditas (talk) 19:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support, if many reliable sources say he frequently fabricates quotes, if no one has proven his quotes were actually accurate (which someone certainly would already have done if they were), and if one of the main activities of the subject is being a public speaker, then the content should definitely be added. Also as per 97.65.104.162's comment. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 13:27, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Then, according to your argument, it should not be added. Tyson has not "frequently fabricated" quotes in an inaccurate manner. He simply misquoted where Bush said something. The partisan groups attempting to character assassinate Tyson for daring to promote evolution on Cosmos and criticizing religion, have poured over every word he has ever said in public lectures. I guarantee you, that if anyone reviewed everything you've ever said or done, they are going to find a hell of a lot of errors and misquotes. That has no bearing on his profession nor his capacity as a science communicator. In fact, the quotes have nothing to do with science! So your argument is easily disproved. Viriditas (talk) 19:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Your argument seems to be "everyone makes lots of misquotes so let's not include the ones made by this guy". But the question I think we should ask is do reliable sources give weight to his misquotes? And are the misquotes notable? The answer to both questions is "yes", and specially if they were misquotes of the president of the US with the clear aim of discrediting his political person/party/views, made not in a pub while drinking beer, but publicly for thousands to millions of people. How is that not notable? GreyWinterOwl (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The current tally

22 support, 20 oppose. --Froglich (talk) 07:16, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I count 24 26 in support or weak support at the moment ((1) Gaijin42 2)Arzel 3)108.33.46.98 4)Lisa 5)Kelly 6)Marteau 7)Capitalismojo 8)Ronnotel 9)Bonewah 10)WeldNeck 11)SEWilco 12)Collect 13)Shii 14)2601:8:8C00:C7F:3C7D:3DCD:7FDE:66D9 15)JonRichfield 16)Froglich 17)Roger 18)Nidhiki05 19)TMD 20)RightCowLeftCoast 21)Kerani 22)Andreas 23)97.65.104.162 24)Obsidi 25)Andyvphil 26) Chester Lunt) --Obsidi (talk) 12:44, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't count the IP addresses (they could be drive-by editors). But even 24 to 20 is pretty firmly within a margin of error. I would consider this current tally a tie. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 12:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

From WP:IPHUMAN, "As current policy stands, unregistered users have the same rights as registered users to participate in the writing of Wikipedia." we should WP:AGF for the IP's. Even IP's without much of an edit history may just be on a dynamic IP ISP. --Obsidi (talk) 14:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the tally, but this is not a vote "The outcome is determined by weighing the merits of the arguments and assessing if they are consistent with Wikipedia policies. Counting "votes" is not an appropriate method of determining outcome, though a closer should not ignore numbers entirely. See WP:CLOSE and WP:CONSENSUS for details."

What I see is a fairly clear lack of consensus thus far. That may change if more sources pick up the story or the Option Summary below pans out. We're only eight days into the RFC, the story is still developing, and there's no reason for us to be in a hurry. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, there is no deadline. In time, the rabid partisans on both sides will drop away. Kelly ^hi! 15:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

On behalf of rabid partisans on both sides, I can't foresee consensus on this issue. Perhaps we should aim for compromise. Also, I don't see why non-inclusion is the default position until consensus is reached i.e. never. I know compromise is a dirty word, but consensus just won't happen.Chemical Ace (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why non-inclusion is the default position until consensus is reached ... The policy is here. As for why, imagine the results if inclusion was the default. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What the policy says, exactly, is: "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." Just so we're clear on the concept. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 16:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Yep. You got me. It doesn't necessarily mean the objection was valid. The quote can never be included, time to move on. :) Cheers guys. Chemical Ace (talk) 16:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree this is not a vote, but no one said that we should close this RfC now or that the support inclusion side should win because they have 46 more votes currently. I would say that consensus remains unclear or contentious, but that just means if we needed to close that we needed to get an uninvolved administrator to decide. I would say the WP:SELFSOURCE, has changed the situation, prior to the self source the RfC was split 18/18, of the editors after that it has been 68 in favor 3 against. For now I think leaving it open is the better way to go and maybe a better consensus will develop (like the compromise Chemical Ace is talking about), or maybe the WP:SELFSOURCE has changed the situation enough that new editors will support more then oppose.--Obsidi (talk) 16:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The primary argument for removal and the actual act of removal has been on the rational of a BLP violation. Now that NdGT has acknowledged and appologized for the incident, I don't see how that is a rational argument to make. Arzel (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Non-inclusion is a gross disservice to whatever credibility the encyclopedia has. The guy told a made-up story for years, can't back it up, hasn't indicated he intends to stop claiming it, and certainly hasn't ventured anything resembling an apology. -- If Tyson were an editor here, he'd be sacked for personal attacks and lying.--Froglich (talk) 21:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

It appears you missed this discussion further down the page. I know this story is a moving target, but if you're going to participate you should probably keep up with developments as they occur. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 21:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, certainly; just because I knew the guy was a rotter before he even had a page here in no way means I won't receive grief for missing a thread by ten hours on the disorganized mess which comprises this TP. Smugs gotta smug.--Froglich (talk) 00:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that at this time it's still contentious/no strong agreement on weight. I also agree with the above notes that 1) NdGT has agreed that the misattribution happened and 2) that in light of that, BLP does not apply, so weight should be the only issue. Holding and waiting for more developments is not a bad idea.Kerani (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

And if consensus is not found or is for exclusion in the Tyson article due to weight and not BLP, putting this issue in a fork would be appropriate. Arguments claiming undue weight for inclusion of fabrication issues cannot be sustained when the issues are in a dedicated fabrication issues article. Marteau (talk) 17:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

What would be the difference between such an article and the last WP:POVFORK that was snow-deleted in about 24 hours? I think you'd need to justify why forking is appropriate. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 18:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that a POV fork would be a bad idea and counter to Wikipedia's norms. Bonewah (talk) 18:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The RfC does not address the merits of the fabrication issue, per se, or the includability of it elsewhere in the encyclopedia. The RfC cites only concerns about weight issues regarding the fabrication allegations within THIS article (from the RfC : "The only discussion I would like to have is on it's weight and if it is really important enough to include in this article"). The text of the WP:WEIGHT policy demonstrates a similar situation. It uses as an example the Earth article, which does not include any mention at all of Flat Earth concepts, because mentining anything at all about Flat Earth concepts would be to give it undue weight (which is the basis of the current RfC). The illustrated solution to undue weight, in this instance, was not to ban all mention throughout the encyclopedia of 'Flat Earth' ideas, but was to fork to a dedicated 'Flat Earth' article. Likewise, the solution to RfC based issues regarding undue weight claims within the Tyson article would be to remove it from the Tyson article, not ban it throughout the encyclopedia. The RfC says exactly that: "in this article". If BLP issues are not a factor, one cannot say that mentioning Tyson fabrication allegations in a dedicated fabrication allegations is undue weight, and a dedicated article would be appropriate. Marteau (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, good luck with that. Maybe it will make more sense to the admin who closes the AFD discussion than it does to me. There appears to be no consensus that it has enough notability to include here, so I fail to see how a consensus will form that it has sufficient notability to have a stand-alone article. Or are you planning to use the loophole that when consensus on AFD is not reached the default is to keep? Mr. Swordfish (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I take exception to the categorization of my proposed handling of the RfC weight issue as a "loophole". It is a direct addressing of the concerns raised by the RfC, and an assertion that addressing weight issues in this article does not indicate the need for an encylopedia-wide ban on covering the issue. Marteau (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Additionally, it should be noted that the previous fork was deleted due to notability, BLP and reliable sources issues. Things have changed since then. Should this RfC cause exclusion, a fork to directly address the finding of the RfC can and should be initiated. Marteau (talk) 21:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Idea tally

Since RfC's are not meant to be votes, but rather to help solicit viewpoints towards building consensus (based on strength of arguments), I looked through the comments above to try and find common arguments used by both sides. I totally admit this is imperfect work, but here is what I came up with:

Against inclusion

• Has not been covered by a mainstream outlet (12)
• Sources are not reliable or notable enough (8)
• Politically motivated (8)
• Began on a small blog (4)
• Public speakers make errors all the time, this is not significant (3)
• Interference from canvassing (2)
• Objections to RfC process (2)
• Beyond this particular instance, accusations of a pattern of activity are not supported (1)
• Lack of factual coverage (1)
• Wikipedia should not be treated as a news site (1)
• Original quotes not covered, no reason to cover now (1)
• If included, there must be context of how it became a bigger issue (1)

For inclusion

• There is now enough coverage to warrant mention, including news sources, and prominent figures such as Tyson himself (14)
• Should be at least mentioned (7)
• Pattern of activity (6)
• As a prominent scientist he should be held to a higher standard (2)
• Neil deGrasse Tyson is a prominent scientist and this provides context on him (2)
• Tyson's statement is shown to be false (2)

Someone can feel free to edit this if they feel a characterization is unfair or if it is totally useless. Now for some of my opinion: I feel some of the arguments on both sides are not too compelling. For instance, I am not sure that him being a prominent scientist means he should be held to a higher standard, and to argue from this incident that there is a bigger pattern seems to be going too far. Some arguments against inclusion stem around process issues, such as the RfC or that there was canvassing (ie, we should not reward canvassing). I agree with that, but the importance of the "vote tally" is meant to be minimal - the strength of the ideas matter. It shouldn't be rewarded, nor should it get in the way of facts.

Finally, the arguments that this began on a "small blog" or amongst those with political motivations is true, but in this case that is not where it stayed. It was picked up by more sources, some of which are indeed past the generally established bar for being deemed notable and reliable (per Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Resources). It even was directly responded to by Tyson himself, which shows he feels it is notable too. And to the central contention of it all - he was found to be in error and admitted it. This story could be quite different under different circumstances - what if Bush really did say what was claimed as was claimed, what if Tyson never responded, what if it remained on just a single blog. But those are hypotheticals. I think in the case we have here, it definitely warrants a mention that is written in a responsible and neutral way. Chester Lunt (talk) 18:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

'Negative Proof' logical fallacy

The blatant negative proof logical fallacy inherent in the comment rationale of this edit is a breathtaking assault upon reason. -- The onus of proof is upon those who make positive claims (e.g., "Prove to me that Bush said that!"), not their detractors. If the quote cannot be found, then it does not matter if there are no sources *at all*. The simple fact of the matter is that Tyson has (repeatedly) made an incendiary claim which has never be verified.--Froglich (talk) 21:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I've been on wikipedia for 8 years and I don't think I've ever seen a sillier, more pointless debate than the one above. Tyson misquoted - and slandered, potentially - George W. Bush. So? If Mr Bush doesn't like it, there are remedies! THAT would warrant inclusion on this page, not some trumped-up "gotcha!" by some who obviously have an agenda here. My observation as a relatively neutral Canadian who is only dimly aware of who Tyson is (I've seen him host Nova and I know he was in the new version of Cosmos), is there seems to be an agenda here to vilify Tyson himself, for reasons which are not immediately obvious, even if one loves Mr. Bush. In fact, the attacks against him are bizarrely over the top.

But what for me is odd is it seems no one else here has bothered to find out what in fact Bush said, if anything. Some have identified the similar quote after the 2003 Columbia shuttle disaster, but not much more than that. Those who attack Tyson are correct, as far as can be discerned: Bush didn't say the exact words Tyson quoted him as saying; When Bush said similar words, it was in an entirely different context than 9/11; Bush at that time made no mention of Muslims or Islam.

However, this notwithstanding, Bush in fact made an amazingly ignorant statement in 2003 (though, to be fair, it was much more likely his speechwriter - maybe fellow Canadian David Frum - who wrote the words) while eulogizing the seven dead astronauts and making an obvious nod to the Israeli astronaut who was among those who died (the first and only person from that country to fly in space). He in fact DID imply that the God of the Bible - he quoted Isaiah 40:26 from the Old Testament - named the stars, when in fact the vast majority of named stars were named by Arabic (mostly Muslim) astronomers.

Bush: "In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.'

"The same creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today."

So, while Bush made no mention of Muslims or Arabs, he nevertheless insulted their legacy by giving credit elsewhere to their achievements. It's sorta like the insult many British felt when Hollywood gave credit to American sailors for cracking the Enigma code during WWII in the film U-571. While the film didn't directly denigrate the British by stating they didn't do it, by giving credit to others for what they achieved, they insulted them, much like Bush did in his statement.

I am quite sure that many Americans would feel insulted if, say, some British politician hailed the achievement of the British Empire in "saving" France by launching the Invasion of Normandy during the same war, while completely ignoring the rather substantial contribution (!) made by the Americans. In other words, the premise by some attacking Tyson that if Bush didn't directly insult Muslims/Arabs by naming them there was no "insult," is demonstrably false.

So, while it is correct that Tyson quoted words from Bush that he never said, Bush nevertheless, while innocent of DIRECTLY insulting Arabs and Muslims, nevertheless insulted them. It would, therefore, be more accurate to say that while Tyson misquoted Bush and the context in which he said similar words, Bush did give credit to others while ignoring the Arab/Muslim achievement.

As I pointed out, however, I seriously doubt Bush himself came up with the idea of quoting Isaiah, it was likely a speechwriter trying to best Reagan's "face of God" quote after the Challenger disaster, with a rather limp result. Canada Jack (talk) 21:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of logical fallacies, that rambling dissertation takes top honors for non sequitur. Quoting Canada Jack: "I've been on wikipedia for 8 years and I don't think I've ever seen a sillier, more pointless debate than the one above. Tyson misquoted - and slandered, potentially - George W. Bush. So?" -- So? It's notable when a public figure (as Tyson certainly is) repeatedly (this has been part of his lecture repertoire for years) slanders (your term) a former leader of the nation. As far as naming the stars goes, I'm everybody was naming stars. I.e., I'm sure the Chinese would very much like that everyone adopt their preferred names. But let's be honest here: the big-time naming of stars (and nebulae and galaxies) didn't begin until telescopes were pointed at the heavens -- and that happened in Europe, not Dar al Islam.--Froglich (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying one should deliberately misquote Isaiah - who is revered by Muslims as a prophet? That would be exceedingly strange - changing the words of a prophet in order not to offend a group which reveres him as a prophet! Hard to imagine any Muslim viewed citing Isaiah as an "insult." Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of words from Canada Jack, some quite speculative, but the bottom line, to quote Canada Jack, it is correct that Tyson quoted words from Bush that he never said. That's the nub.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The silliest thing about Canada Jack's post is that he apparently thinks that when Bush quoted Isaiah 40:26 to the effect that God "brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name" that he was somehow insulting Muslims by misappropriating the process by which Betelgeuse came to be called Betelgeuse. This literalist interpretation is of course exactly the way Tyson took it, which should be as embarrassing to him as anything else about this episode. Andyvphil (talk) 04:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Why was a major edit made without consensus?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

When an article is fully protected, my understanding is that edits, other than trivial, must be agreed to with a consensus on the talk page. I see that a substantial portion of the Bush quote incident has been removed by MastCell. I do not see any discussion of the proposed edit. The edit summary suggests that it is an exception to the rule, because it is a BLP violation. It is not such thing. Stating that "No evidence exists that Bush said that.", which is sourced to a reliable source, is not a BLP violation. This is not a minor part of the issue - the current statement indicates what Tyson said, then has a minor hint that it has been challenged. That is not remotely the case. Bush speech historians have weighted in that he never said it. Searches of transcripts have been done and it hasn't been found. The speech that Bush made has been found, so we know what he said, and it doesn't match the point made by Tyson. If there is any BLP violation, it is a violation against Bush, as the current wording leaves the impression that only one source challenges the statement, and that statement doesn't even say it didn't happen. While "slander" is supposed to imply a falsehood, it is often used incorrectly. I call on Mastcell to revert the removal; there is no policy basis for the removal. There is plenty of debate about whether this incident deserves inclusion on weight arguments, but I do not recall that there is even a hint that someone thinks Tyson was right. --S Philbrick(Talk) 23:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I requested that Mastcell revert the removal. Some discussion on Mastcell's talk page, but not making much progress.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I assume the rationale was to err on the side of WP:BRD and leave contentious material out of a BLP until consensus can be reached. a13ean (talk) 01:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Stating that "No evidence exists that Bush said that.", which is sourced to a reliable source", which WP:RS would that be Sphilbrick}?
• "Bush speech historians have weighted in that he never said it", on Twitter.
• "Searches of transcripts have been done and it hasn't been found.", WP:OR.
• "The speech that Bush made", Bush made many speeches. Which WP:RS said where that particular one was the one Tyson quoted?

I support MastCell, that was a good edit and should not be reverted. In fact, the entire mention looks like it's going to be removed. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 01:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

We're three days into an RfC process which defaults to a thirty day process (which can be expanded or contracted depending on how it's going and the interest). I wouldn't be so sure. The quality and weight of the sources is only increasing. And if Tyson himself comments on this, all bets are off. Marteau (talk) 03:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

But the sourcing is still close to zero. When we start having dozens or hundreds of reliable sources (and I'm looking for straight news stories, not opinion columns), then I might be willing to re-examine the issue. But for now, it's a slam dunk no. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Requiring "dozens or hundreds" of reliable sources before you "might" reconsider is of course your prerogative. I consider it an unreasonably high bar, but your bar is your bar. And some others I am sure would not reconsider it if there were thousands. Such is the nature of editing Wikipedia. Marteau (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not an unreasonably high bar. There are literally thousands and thousands of sources on this topic. Consider for example that a Google News search currently turns up a total of only 5 hits about the quote allegation.[19] Now, do a Google News Search on Tyson and Cosmos. You get back a whopping 761 sources.[20] Granted that this is not a perfect methodology, but it is an objective methodology. Bearing that in mind, per WP:WEIGHT, the article should have about 150 times more coverage given to Cosmos than the quote controversy. Yet, when I first came to this article,[21] there was 5 sentences devoted to the quote allegations and 4 sentences about Cosmos. That doesn't seem massively out of whack to you? If it takes hundreds of sources to get Cosmos into the article, it should take hundreds of sources to get the quote allegation in. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Because Cosmos HAS hundreds of sources does not mean it TOOK hundreds of sources to get into the article... the logic does not follow. Personally, I would have allowed Cosmos into the article if, for some reason, there were only two reliable sources, and I would do so in the future in a similar situation. I'm sure I'm not alone. Marteau (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I said that incorrectly. What I meant is that Cosmos has received roughly 150 times more coverage that than the quote allegation. That means it should get (roughly) 150 times more coverage. Do you agree or disagree? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I would say that is a faulty comparison. I would say that the Cosmos series should have it's own section, but that started in March of this year and has had much more time to be in the news. This, however, has received coverage much more recently. A more apt comparison would be to see in approximately 6 months if the quote fabrication has as much coverage as Cosmos has today. At least then they would be on similar time frames. Arzel (talk) 05:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting a possible misquote is going to have the same lasting impact as the large amounts of coverage he got from the high-budget popular TV show Cosmos? Second Quantization (talk) 10:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not suggesting anything, simply pointing out a logical falicy. And let us be clear here. This is not a possible misquote. What he claimed Bush said, did not happen. He has repeated it several times. Don't fool yourself, you know that his legion of followers have scoured the internet for proof that Bush actually did say this. As it becomes more and more evident that no evidence exists their cries against this issue have only become louder. The longer that Tyson refuses to either provide proof of the statement or correct his statement only makes the problem worse. Your actions do him no service either. Arzel (talk) 16:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No. My standards for determining whether an event should be included are on a case by case basis and do not strictly involve comparisons of why other material was included or the sheer numbers of reliable sources. The amount of text devoted to an incident within an article DOES depend on other content, but the question of it's inclusion does not. And ratios comparing the number of citations of proposed additions with existing material certainly are not involved. My requirements for covering professional malfeasance, in particular, are not weighted as much towards coverage in the press as in other cases for inclusion. Cases of professional misconduct have an inherent weight to me. When there is professional misconduct, I may only require two sources, and may not personally require as much press coverage. For example, say a doctor was accused of botching an operation because he was drunk and killed the patient. A court finds him guilty and jails him. The only source is the ruling of the court, and perhaps ONE story about him going to jail. I'd include that, just based on that, just two sources, because this is a case of professional malfeasance, and the court ruling is an impeccable sorce. Now, the accusations in the Tyson issue involve his conduct as a professional speaker, a professional speaker who is accused of manufacturing quotes and slandering a president. Moreover, this is a professional speaker who holds logic and rationality up as his standard. If this were some other celebrity, my requirments for inclusion would need much more press coverage. But because he is a professional speaker and a scientist and holds himself up as a rationalist, documented and true instances of professional malfeasance in the course of his career get high weight in my judegement and require not as much press coverage. I fully am aware this may be contrary to others standards, probably even being considered a radical departure from Wikitradition. It is, however, the standard I use and the standard I will continue to use until I quit or am asked to leave. Marteau (talk) 05:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"My requirements for covering professional malfeasance, in particular, are not weighted as much towards coverage in the press as in other cases for inclusion." Well, Wikipedia standards are decided by coverage, so your out of luck on that one. If you want to argue we should abandon our basic criteria for inclusion and instead rely on your subjective opinions about what's really important, then argue at WP:WEIGHT about it. Second Quantization (talk) 10:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gaba p: The edit removed by Mastcell said, "No evidence exists that Bush said that." It was courced to two sites, one of which is probably not an RS, but the other one, the Weekly Standard is an RS. The edit also removed Hemant Mehta called this "the most serious example of Tyson’s alleged quotation negligence" but that source looks like a blog, and probably should not be included.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:55, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sphilbrick and as I pointed out 5 days ago here, both sources failed verification completely. That's leaving aside the unquestionable status of non-WP:RS of the principal source being used, ie: thefederalist.com. Regards. Gaba ^(talk)

Sorry I missed that discussion. If I understand your query, you are unable to understand how the sentence No evidence exists that Bush said that. is supported by the source. The source says:

But here’s the real problem—nothing about this anecdote is true. George W. Bush did make a remark that bears a resemblance to this, but it was two years later, in his speech following the Columbia space shuttle disaster, a context that had nothing to do with 9/11 or with Islam. “The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today,” Bush said.

(emphasis added)

Frankly, the source is even stronger. They don't just contend that Bush didn't say it, they claim that nothing about the statement is true. They have identified the statement by Bush probably picked up by Tyson, which is not about Muslims.

Let me know if your quibble is with the exact wording, but it looks to me like it supports a stronger statement than was used. One possibility is to use the actual quote, if there is something about the existing sentence that is problematic.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sphilbrick what you quoted above could be used, at most, to source something along the lines of

"The Scrapbook claimed in The Weekly Standard that "nothing about (the) anecdote is true".

but absolutely not the definitive statement No evidence exists that Bush said that, worst of all stated in WP's voice.

Proper attribution is extremely important in a BLP, specially when the person is being accused of lying. If attributing it to "The Scrapbook" sounds silly to you, that's because it is. There's no reason we should include an attack on a BLP just because someone wrote it down online. Notability isn't there and WP:RSs haven't covered the issue. The entire mention should be removed from the article as the majority !vote in the ongoing RfC appears to be pointing to. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 21:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Why do you keep saying that RS's have not covered the issue? The Weekly Standard has, the National Review has, the UK newspaper "The Week" has, the Tampa Tribune has.--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Because I don't consider many of them out-of-the-question WP:RSs. They could be discussed in the context of what precisely they are saying since, as I proved above, TWS which is perhaps the main source being referenced does not support the original quote you keep insisting on restoring and which I strongly advise you don't. Also important is the fact that as far as I could tell all the sources that have chimed in on this refer back to the out-of-the-question not WP:RS thefederalist.com. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 02:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That sources refer back to the origin of this issue is natural. It brings the reader unfamiliar with the genesis of this issue up to speed. If the NY Times does an article on this issue, if they refer to The Federalist's coverage in the rehashing of the issues, will you protest that as well? I just am not sure why you feel that the fact that sources "refer back" to an unreliable source is important. Most of those sources make independent assertions on their own that are not dependent on The Federalist, and these independent assertions are citeable here. That their conclusions match the Federalist's on some issues (e.g. that Bush never said it) does nothing to degrade the assertions of the reliable sources. Marteau (talk) 03:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

But the fact is the NY times hasn't published an article about the issue. Neither has any major media site. The fact that only second-rate sources have commented on this and that they all refer back to the "investigation" by the S Davis character at thefederalist.com substracts even more weight to this non-incident. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 12:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What is the big deal? All because a website found a few errors, such as confusing "mean" with "average", or mis-attributing a quote. Time to WP:DROPTHESTICK. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it is rude an disrespectful to jump into a conversation without doing at least some homework to become informed. Neither item you mention has been alleged.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF. You appear to have assumed he has done no homework, and I welcome a new voice. Also, one of his items was mentioned before and the second possibly was. I also think his WP:DROPTHESTICK ref is well put. This is rapidly becoming both repetitive and much ado about nothing. The editor appears to have come here in good faith to bring this to a conclusion. At this point, it appears that the only reason that this “issue” is still alive is because this TP is talking about it and the original source keeps “quoting” this TP. I added the scare quotes because the original source is attempting to publically bully WP editors by quoting snippets of this page, out of context, with WP editor handles, and ridiculing them. Now, in my humble opinion, THAT is a story that should be carried in the real press as it appears to be an attempt at stifling free speech. Just my opinion. Objective3000 (talk) 00:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

THAT is a story that should be carried in the real press ... Respectfully disagree. Nobody outside of the participants in this talk page and a few random blog readers gives a rat's ass about any of this. I know that's just my opinion, but I can't imagine any real journalist doing a story on a failed attempt to "work the refs" on wikipedia. Of course, if it does garner widespread coverage in mainstream media, we (i.e. wikipedia editors) will be there to document it with RS citations. (c:

Oh, WP:DROPTHESTICK for sure. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 00:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Schopenhauer said: “Journalists are like dogs, whenever anything moves they begin to bark.” It’s also known that when you tell a dog to be quiet, it often voices one last bark. Let us hear the last bark and close this. Objective3000 (talk) 01:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I am assuming good faith. A new voice, without a clue, is not an addition. Neither allegation has made as far as I know. He didn't confuse "mean" with "average" and no one who knows those terms would express it that way. He confused average with median, then confused it by correcting himself and saying he meant "mode" which isn't right either. You can look it up. Mis-attributing a quote means getting the person who said wrong. No one has alleged that any quote was said by anyone but Bush. Tyson got the quote wrong, the date wrong, the meaning wrong, as well as the source of the words, but no one mis-attributed it. You can look it up. What stick do you mean? This is a simple case of a mistake made by a notable person, covered by reliable sources. There only stick wielding is by those who throw alphabet soup at the wall, desperately trying for a way to keep this incident out of the article. I agree that sticks should be dropped, although we may disagree about who is wielding them.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

"Desparately trying for a way to keep this incident out of the article"? I'm not sure I understand exactly what it is you are trying to say here S Philbrick. Could you clarify/expand? --Shabidoo | Talk

WP:DROPTHESTICK, are you kidding? Something like 14 different editors all think this incident deserves some mention, therefore a discussion about it is warranted. I see no reason why that conversation should stop simply because you personally feel it should. If the discussion bothers you, maybe you are the one who should disengage. Bonewah (talk) 02:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Advocating that we WP:DROPTHESTICK implies that the debate is over, and that we should stop discussing it. The debate is most certainly not over, neither literally or figuratively . Saying it is is, if not rude, then tactless and taunting. Marteau (talk) 03:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

We are all entitled to our opinions, and that includes me. This massively long thread shows to me that it is time to drop it. Of course, if you want to keep wasting your time with this minutiae, be my guest. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Again with the taunts. If you are assuming these tactics benefit your cause, I would advise you to reconsider. Marteau (talk) 03:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Which "cause" is that? I think you are seeing shadows where there are none. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

@Marteau: I am patiently waiting for an answer. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The word "cause", as I used the word, is a colloquialism commonly used in debates. It is that which someone advocates or defends in their argument. You advocate we WP:DROPTHESTICK, therefore WP:DROPTHESTICK was your "cause" in the debate. Marteau (talk) 14:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That, and nominating Thefederalist.com article for deletion could also lead one to reasonably assume you have a "cause" Marteau (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Under what color of authority did Gamaliel "archive" the above text? Anyway, I have something to add, whether he considers it productive or not. (Transcluded from a RS noticeboard discussion of "The Weekly Standard".): The WS is a perfectly respectable mainstream political journal in no discernable way different than The Nation, NRO, New Republic, etc., etc. and there is no reason it suffer any higher or lower level of scrutiny than any of those. That said, the statement that "No evidence exists that Bush said that" should have been attributed, as common sense tells you it was not a scientific fact, but merely a statement about a search process conducted by the WS or the proxies it relied upon, and the reader should preferably therefor have been explicitly informed in text as well as citation who was responsible for the conclusion being stated. Nonetheless, the claim[22] by MastCell that this statement, fully-cited to the WS editorial, was an "unequivocal WP:BLP violation" (evidently, a "defamation of living persons" per WP:PREFER) is nonsense, as it was in no way the equivalent of a "serious and potentially defamatory factual claim... that tyson fabricated quotes". And, IMHO, MastCell abused his admin bit in editing the way he did, through full protection, to remove all traces of this particular embarrassment for Tyson.

So, where do we take it to get MastCell's bit pulled? Andyvphil (talk) 15:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

This article needs help...

Addition of two links that are already known and fully discussed

Good news: this article made the news. Bad news: it made it for all the wrong reasons- edit warring. Just wanted to bring this to everybody's attention so that an intelligent discussion can occur about how to fix the problems with this article ASAP. I'm no expert on this topic (I don't even know what he does for a living), but sometimes an outside view point can help with controversial topics. http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/18/why-is-wikipedia-deleting-all-references-to-neil-tysons-fabrication/ Luthien22 (talk) 00:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC) I don't mean to sound snarky, but you're about a week late to the party. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 00:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC) User:ZeroSerenity This page isn't in my expertise- I just saw this article pop up in my facebook feed. That being said, would this article by the Friendly Atheist about the issue be any help to you guys, or did somebody already find it? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/09/17/if-we-cant-trust-neil-degrasse-tyson-who-can-we-trust/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luthien22 (talk • contribs) 00:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC) Sorry you are late to the party. That link has been in the article, and removed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Standalone article on allegations and local summary

POV fork was deleted

To avoid undue weight issues in this BLP, I've written a standalone article on the allegations themselves - Neil deGrasse Tyson fabrication allegations. Per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, I recommend a brief summation in the "Career" section of the biography (as opposed to the "Politics" section where the mention currently lives). Here is my proposal: In September 2014, Sean Davis of The Federalist, a right-leaning Web magazine, alleged that Tyson had fabricated several quotes and anecdotes used in his books and lectures, most significantly a story about former U.S. President George W. Bush which claimed Bush had used a divisive religious quote in remarks following the September 11 attacks. Bush's speechwriters denied that Bush had ever made such remarks, and reporters covering Bush at the time did not recall the alleged remark. In response, Tyson stated "[T]one and flavor and context and intent are all key elements to any message I convey—all missing to anyone who was not present at the time." Thoughts? Kelly hi! 13:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC) Kelly. There is in no way enough sources and notability for a stand-alone article on this. I have redirected the "allegation" article to this article for now, but since the allegations are not currently mentioned in this article, it may be more appropriate to delete it. Do not recreate the allegation article without consensus to do so, as it constitutes a WP:BLP problem to have a controversy article without enough sources/notability to warrant it. Iselilja (talk) 13:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC) I've restored the content for now. The article is reliably sourced and the Twitter remarks are from verified accounts by mainstream journalists. All facts are sourced to reliable publications. Please use an appropriate process rather than simply blanking content. Kelly hi! 13:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC) Perhaps you could specify which facts are not adequately sourced? Kelly hi! 13:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC) Kelly. My concern isn't so much each fact per se (I have not looked into all that), but there isn't enough sources and notability to warrant a stand-alone article in the first place, because the overall coverage of this in reliable sources is limited to a couple of articles. To have a full article on this dispute constitues WP:UNDUE weight to the issue; currently it's even unclear whether there is consensus to include a single paragraph about the allegations in this main article. Iselilja (talk) 13:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC) WP:UNDUE refers to the amount of content within an article, not to the existence of an article in itself. I started this discussion to consider how much of this info, if any, should be included in this biography. Kelly hi! 13:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC) The thing that spin-off article should only be created if there is too much stuff to have all in the main article. Per WP:Due Weight there is little to suggest that there will be consensus for including several paragraphs on this controversy in this article (even if there is good place for more stuff), hence a spin-off article is not necessary. ( Otherwise, your article appeared well written, and I understand it's irritating to see others undoe it). Iselilja (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC) I originally drafted it with the intention of creating a section in this article, but I think it's too large for that. Hence I created the content fork with the proposed summary here. Thank you for your comment about the writing, I appreciate it. Kelly hi! 14:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC) I do not think it is appropriate to create a standalone article at this time. We have not reached consensus about the notability/weight for inclusion in the main bio, so we are really short of consensus for enough notability/weight for a stand-alone. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC) In that case, you should use a Wikipedia process to address your concerns rather than simply blanking the page. Kelly hi! 13:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC) We are in the middle of an RFC debating weight/notability. Short circuiting that process by creating a stand-alone article is not the way to achieve consensus. Until we reach some consensus here the stand-alone article should redirect back to this article. The stand-alone article is a WP:POVFORK and violates wikipedia policy. I have nominated it for speedy deletion. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC) It's not a POV fork, it's a content fork, which Wikipedia uses all the time. That's why I'm making a proposal here in accordance with WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Kelly hi! 14:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC) I think it's fair to say that if the notability is this contentious for the main article, then a standalone would be inappropriate. General Epitaph (talk) 16:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC) I think it's discourteous to the editors taking part in an RCF to go ahead and create a standalone article. Especially when large portion of users find the entire issue unnotable. This "issue" suffers from multiple problems beyond just "weight" and "reliable sources" (see the many instances of users claiming problems with and violation of policy above). Speedy deletion would be reasonable. --Shabidoo | Talk 17:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC) Note: I've nominated the article for deletion. Please see thread here. Regards. Gaba (talk) 15:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC) There are a number of alleged incidents, but there's quite a range, from pure nitpicking claims through reasonably well-sourced incidents. Very few, save the star-naming incident, have decent sourcing or rise beyond "who cares". Not enough, IMO to justify a separate article.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC) It is looking like this fork will end up being deleted. If indeed the fork gets deleted, and if, at the end of the RfC here the consensus is to disallow mention of the Tyson fabrication allegations here, it will certainly be appropriate to restore the fork. Forks can be created for many reasons, one of the most important reasons is to avoid WP:WEIGHT issues. As I said in the Articles for Deletion, WP:WEIGHT policy text uses the example of flat earth concepts not being includable in the earth article due to weight issues. The solution they illustrate to that weight issue is to create a fork, as evidenced by the linking of policy to the flat earth ideas article. The solution is NOT to completely censor every mention of distinct minority issues from the encyclopedia, but to fork off such ideas. There is no basis for completely removing absolutely all mention of this issue in this encyclopedia because of weight issues, as some editors seem to be proposing. Marteau (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2014 (UTC) My understanding of the RFC is not to "disallow mention of the Tyson fabrication allegations" but rather to decide whether to include them at this time based on notability/weight. If this gets more attention we should re-evaluate. The best thing to do right now is for everyone to take a deep breath, let the story develop, and calmly evaluate it in a few weeks. If the rest of the world thinks it's important then we should include it. If not, we should pass. In the meantime, throwing around loaded words like "censor" does not help foster the collaborative spirit. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2014 (UTC) Support Merge of Whatever Merits Mention And Never Recreate This Fork: Imagine an encyclopedia with separate entries for every stupid thing a person did. This should not be wikipedia, it doesn't help our readers as all. Sure some bigwigs require multiple articles to cover everything they did in life, e.g., Early life of George W. Bush, but not George W. Bush pretzel incident.--Milowent • hasspoken 20:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Tyson has responded

From Facebook. It addresses a few points and seems to add some desired closure. Please examine for yourself. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 02:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, we're clear on two things now: Tyson is sticking by his 9/11-context claim, but no one as of yet can back him up.--Froglich (talk) 07:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Normally Facebook is absolutely an unusable, with the exception of WP:SELFSOURCE. I'm not proposing anything specific at the moment, I'm just making a note that information from there is potentially usable. Alsee (talk) 05:41, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be usable per WP:SPS but it's probably better to wait - I imagine some media outlets will pick it up despite it being released as a Friday night news dump. Kelly ^hi! 08:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems to mainly say "this is what I remembered happening, and someone could probably prove it, but if no one is able to prove it, it may still have been true, because proving something did not happen is a fallacious requirement." Close enough? Collect (talk) 12:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a major development. Tyson has decided to stick with his claim, despite the fact that every single public speech by the President is available for review, and not a single person has found the quote. Despite my interest in getting this incident correct, I had a favorable opinion of Tyson, as he is an excellent speaker, and has a knack for engaging his audience. I agree with his main theses, that American's has an abysmal grasp of science, and support his initiatives to address the problem. I also know, form personal experience, that it is possible to misremember things, and I was confident that when pressed, he would realize he made a mistake. That surprises me. Doesn't change the fact that he is an effective speaker, but if someone refuses to change their opinion in the face of evidence, what should we conclude about his character?--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

"This is a major development." Since when are facebook posts major developments? You are once again deciding what you think is important by your own arbtirary threshold, rather than looking at the most reliable sources, Second Quantization (talk) 18:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

In the comments to that Facebook post, Tyson now acknowledges mixing up post-9/11 remarks and 2003 remarks on the Columbia space shuttle disaster. Not sure which way that cuts, but thought I'd note it for the record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.63.200 (talk) 20:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, I was stunned that he was trying to stick with his error, but he finally admitted his error. Tha doesn't look like an RS, so we may still have to wait for a better source.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it meet WP:SELFSOURCE? PStrait (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it does. I know very little about Facebook, and most of what I see comes from seeing Facebook additions reverted. I understand that his own posts can be an exception, but I don't know enough about the verification process at Facebook to know whether a comment on someone else's page meets the verification standards. --S Philbrick(Talk) 17:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Just for what it's worth, Tyson tweeted that he plans to apologize for bungling the quote. Again, not sure how this cuts here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.63.200 (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• WP:NOTFORUM Did I miss something? What article edit proposal is being discussed here? Gaba ^(talk) 14:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What is the supposed relevance of NOTFORUM? I keep seeing this paragraph mentioned by editors who are apparently attracted by it "name", but seem to have no idea what it says. Andyvphil (talk) 08:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I am proposing a source to use. That is legitimate. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 14:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

We're discussing the significance/usability of Tyson's statement as a potential source. Kelly ^hi! 14:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to the comments that came after, mainly the one by S Philbrick. The article should be proposed as a source at WP:RSN linking back to this TP. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 14:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe his statement can support a line in the article to the effect "Neil DeGrasse Tyson acknowledged on Facebook that he could not provide a direct citation for the quote he attributed to Bush". Ronnotel (talk) 20:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there is basically zero question that the source would meet WP:SELFPUB in that its Tyson commenting on the accuracy of his own comments, but its only relevant in so much as its a response to content that may or may not be included. However, the fact that he did respond to it at all does give it some additional weight - you don't swat at non-existant-gnats. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• The Washington Post discusses Tyson's response here. Kelly ^hi! 20:21, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The Volokh conspiracy is not TWP, it's a blog and it's WP:RS should be discussed. Gaba ^(talk) 21:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

We can make a standalone article just about Tyson's facebook post...and how the totally impartial bloggers cover it and how extremely important newspapers and television stations document what the bloggers say (while the whole world waits at the edges of their seats to see what happens next). And then when some new blogger points out that Tyson wore white shirt after Labour day...we can document that on this article and create yet another stand alone (The Tyson white shirt on Labourday controversy). There will be no end to fair and impartial blogs that will critically analyse it and then CNN and the BBC will broadcast to the world the next extremely important development in the TysonGate saga. --Shabidoo | Talk 00:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• In the comments, Tyson admits he screwed up the quote: "I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote. Perhaps that's a measure of how upset I was in both cases." PStrait (talk) 16:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• It appears Tyson intends to apologize to Bush[23] so I wouldn't be surprised at further coverage. Kelly ^hi! 07:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Bush's Quote

Evidently the quote is on page 166 of the following transcript (http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/bushrecord/documents/Selected_Speeches_George_W_Bush.pdf). How does one integrate this into the article/controversy in a non-original research way? In any event, it's here for the discussion. General Epitaph (talk) 21:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think is this one on Page 166 (my highlight): "He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing. The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today. The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home." George W. Bush. REMARKS ON THE LOSS OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE COLUMBIA, THE CABINET ROOM OF THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON, D.C. FEBRUARY 1, 2003 - Cwobeel (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

But Tyson's recollection was that it was spoken after 9/11, so maybe his recollection is not accurate? Who knows? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see that this was brought up in the original article (my apologies!) Evidently it was brought up as getting the date wrong. From the discussion page here I got the sense that people were claiming "no one could find this quote", hence my posting. Please disregard! General Epitaph (talk) 21:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Tyson has admitted that got the quote confused: Good to see that the Bush quote was found. Thanks to all who did the searching. I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote. Perhaps that’s a measure of how upset I was in both cases. The mind is surely the next mysterious universe to be plumbed. [24]

Can we put this now to rest? I hope so. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:00, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

yes, but that was the whole point of the article. The actual quote had nothing to do with 9/11 and Islam. But because NDGT didn't bother to do his research and find the quote, he ended up slandering Bush with his misremembered interpretation. That's not a no-harm-no-foul situation. Ronnotel (talk) 22:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Big deal. I guess some people will keep foaming at the mouth about this no matter what. We will have some material about it on the article and we can then all move on to build the pedia. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The main criticism of this misquote is that Tyson made the quote out to be anti-Muslim/anti-Arab in nature; the fact that Tyson also got the circumstances wrong was always a secondary issue. Also, please be civil, and you may benefit from reading (or re-reading) WP:OWN. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I have never edited this article. I came here from a BLP/N mention, so I don't understand why are you quoting WP:OWN. The way I look at this is that the outrage that have been raised by this mistake is worth mentioning in the article, but it is not a big deal. Luckily his mistake did not cost a trillion dollars and half a million deaths, if you get my gist. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

"Lucky his mistake did not cost a trillion dollars..." - true but irrelevant. Jane Goodall's 'mistake' with Seeds of Hope didn't cost a trillion dollars, either, yet it remains notiable and recorded in WP. The issue is the error that NdGT made, not the errors which had been made by anyone else. Kerani (talk) 01:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, agree. The article already mentions the mistake, and once the protection ends surely more will be added including his admission. Are we done now? - Cwobeel (talk) 01:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The issues of a famed science communicator repeatedly fabricating or misattributing quotes have not been sufficently explored - at least, not sufficent for some people. More media attention to their concerns may yet yield more sources that will warrent inclusion. However, I don't think your contributions will make or break the article, feel free to bow out if you've got more pressing matters.Kerani (talk) 01:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Explore away... but I don't think you need much more to cover this issue in the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The PDF quote is "In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, “Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.” The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today. The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home. May God bless the grieving families, and may God continue to bless America. "

We ought not elide the fact that Bush was quoting Isaiah, who is revered by Muslims, in the first place - and did not come up with "naming the stars" out of the blue, and most assuredly did not do so in any sense of separating Muslims from "us." Tyson managed not only to mangle the quote, but also the circumstances of the quote, and the intent of the quote. And to deny doing so until irrefutable evidence was provided. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This is simply your opinion. You are not supposed to be arguing with Tyson. WP:OR Objective3000 (talk) 13:31, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not my "opinion" as to the quote. It is not my "opinion" that Tyson misquoted Bush (indeed, he states he did so). It is not my "opinion" that he misstated the circumstances of the quote - Tyson states that as well. It is not my "opinion" that Bush did not refer at all to Muslims in the quote - the quote stands quite well on its own. It is not my "opinion" that Tyson denied misquoting Bush until forced to do so by people citing the actual quote in the transcript - the reliable sources cited make that factually clear. And I am not "arguing with Tyson" at all -- just stating what he has said and what the official transcript states. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Collect. Presenting the facts is quite a bit different than presenting your opinion. Arzel (talk) 14:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

We present facts as long as they are mentioned in a WP:RS. We don't present out opinions on the "facts" as Collect did above. Gaba ^(talk) 21:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Collect presented only facts. I would ask you to point out which fact is not true; what is opinion? Arzel (talk) 03:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Two Versions of the Quote Bush and Tyson

What Bush said Feb 2003 in the aftermatch of the space shuttle Columbia disaster was: "In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of His great power, and mighty strength, not one of them is missing." The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today. The crew of the shuttle Columbia did not return safely to Earth; yet we can pray that all are safely home."

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/bushrecord/documents/Selected_Speeches_George_W_Bush.pdf

TYSON's Misremembered Version: "Here’s what happens. George Bush, within a week of [the 9/11 terrorist attacks] gave us a speech attempting to distinguish we from they. And who are they? These were sort of the Muslim fundamentalists. And he wants to distinguish we from they. And how does he do it? He says, "Our God" - of course it’s actually the same God, but that’s a detail, let’s hold that minor fact aside for the moment. Allah of the Muslims is the same God as the God of the Old Testament. So, but let’s hold that aside. He says, "Our God is the God" - he’s loosely quoting Genesis, biblical Genesis - "Our God is the God who named the stars.""

http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/watch/2008/06/19/george-bush-and-star-names

More wrong than just the date. Totally different context and motive. No our god v their god. No us v them. And Isaiah not Genesis. --Naaman Brown (talk) 02:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The stupidest part of what Tyson did was to think that God "bring[ing] out the starry hosts one by one and call[ing] them each by name" had anything to do with the names in the star table he displayed. I mean, if he remembers that some pol said "360 degrees" meaning "180 degrees", and can't be bothered to look it up so he can attribute it to Waters, that's just laziness. But to hear Bush's speech and think he he was trying to claim for his God the naming of Betelgeuse is profoundly moronic. Is there any evidence this guy is actually smart, or has he gotten where he is solely through affirmative action? Andyvphil (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Resources

Here is a first stab at a list of some relevant sources. Note that several do not qualify as reliable sources in some cases are not sure but my guess is that they are not. I've included them in the list those interested in seeing what is being said about this incident.

Note: the table below represents the opinions of several Wikipedia editors who may or may not be familiar with how we evaluate sources for reliability. Furthermore, their asseessments of sources may or may not accurately represent the linked source discussions. Please do not interpret this table as reliable or factual.

Source	Status as RS (although not necessarily for contentious information on a BLP)	Discussion of RS status	Article	Added by (use four tildes if inserting it yourself)
The Daily Beast	Y	here	[25]
FrontPage Mag	Y	here	[26]
haydenplanetarium.org	Y	Possibly not for everything, but presumably for this	[27]
Tampa Tribune	Y Editorial - see below	(Presumptive, not seeing any dissent)	[28]
Washington Free Beacon	Y	(Presumptive, has editorial board see [29])	[30]
Hot air	Y	(Presumptive, has editorial board see [31])	[32]
Liberty Unyielding	Y	(has an editor-in-chief and senior editor, but no real editorial board see http://libertyunyielding.com/about/)	[33]
thedailybanter.com	Y	(appears to mostly be a blog)	[34]
The Weekly Standard	Y Editorial - see below	here	[35]
original list is above, add new ones below
Physics Today	Y addresses the Federalist accusations of Tyson, but does not say anything about Bush or misquotes.	[36]	[37]	added in comment to this section: Markus Pössel (talk) 20:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Volokh Conspiracy	self-edited blog, published by washingtonpost.com without their editorial oversight, honored by ABA Journal	here	[38] [39]	near top of RfC: Capitalismojo (talk) 15:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
The Week	Y Opinion piece - see below	(Presumptive, UK Newspaper)	[40]
National Review	Y Editorial - see below	here, and here	[41][42][43]
Christian Post	Y Editorial or opinion piece - see below	published paper with editorial board see [44]	[45][46]
Facebook	Y	WP:SELFSOURCE	[47]	Alsee (talk) 05:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
The Daily Caller	Y Editorial - see below	here	[48]	Kelly hi! 08:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
The Washington Examiner	Y - does talk about TheFederalist.com accusing Neil Tyson of "making up quotes"	Presumed, weekly magazine - Editorial or opinion column - see below	[49]	Kelly hi! 08:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
National Catholic Register	Y Editorial or opinion - see below	80 year old biweekly paper with editorial board	[50]	Kelly hi! 10:57, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Politico	Y Opinion piece by Rich Lowry, editor of National Review	WELL established RS see this among various others	[51]	Marteau (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
New York Post	Y Shorter version of Rich Lowry piece above, syndicated?	Presumed	[52]	Kelly hi! 06:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Salon	Y	Presumed	[53]	Kelly hi! 13:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sphilbrick (talk • contribs) 21:11, 2014 September 19‎

I added a column and a couple of items which have been mentioned. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Re Physics Today they are " the flagship publication of the American Institute of Physics, is the most influential and closely followed physics magazine in the world. With authoritative features, full news coverage and analysis, and fresh perspectives on technological advances and ground-breaking research, Physics Today informs readers about science and its role in society." Just FYI Capitalismojo (talk) 03:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The Tampa paper is clearly a political opinion editorial. Those tend to go all over the place. It's different from a news article covering the topic. It think his editorial is enough to prove that the opinion exists, but not enough to prove it is notable enough to mention out of all the many, many things that could be said in this encyclopedia article. Even if it were in a news article I'd prefer something a little less regional in its coverage in order to demonstrate national or international traction on the topic. DreamGuy (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Most of the "discussion" comprising the "checkmark" links on that chart is 5- to 7-year-old partisan tripe. Circa the present, responsible editors are not obligated to do anything other than laugh at it.--Froglich (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

even if they were ALL reliable, it would still be WP:UNDUE-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:06, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

When multiple mainstream media sources begin writing about a public intellectual making up quotes it is noteworthy, even if some are op-ed pieces. Opinion pieces are often the main source of criticism in BLPs and are reliable for the opinion of the author. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Whether it is WP:UNDUE or not is a subjective opinion, and is an issue I am guessing we will eventuall have to formally vote on in an RFC. I will just add that Tyson is known for giving lectures and for his role in educating and instructing. Reliable sources saying that in his role as a public, paid speaker, he manufactures quotes should not have a very high bar to clear regarding notability. Lecturing about things which are false goes towards his credibility and the quality of his lectures and can be considered unprofessional and unscholarly, particulary from a speaker who is also a scientist. Tyson positions himself as and is in fact a paid speaker and communicator, this issue is in fact a big deal when applied to a paid lecturer, and is includable even if no further sources than we have now chime in on the issue. Marteau (talk) 19:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Now there's also a Physics Today report on the controversy: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/news/10.1063/PT.5.8070 - as part of their "Science and the Media" section in their daily edition. A brief description of the current controversy taken from that would probably be a good thing to put the current paragraph about the GWB quotation into perspective. Markus Pössel (talk) 20:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't call this anywhere near a "controversy" yet. In any case, this article doesn't actually mention the quote but is more of a catalogue of writers in the blogosphere and a couple newspapers attacking Tyson in general. --Shabidoo | Talk 21:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's approaching that point, as Bush's former aides are weighing in on the topic. Kelly ^hi! 15:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

haydenplanetarium.org is also the source used in WikiQuote as the source for the God-stars Bush quote. There seems little doubt that Tyson said that Bush said it. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I would echo my comment above that "The Volkl Conspiracy" does not fall under NEWSBLOG, because it is only hosted by WaPo and not subject to editorial control like their many other NEWSBLOGs. It's a RS for the opinion expressed by the author only. News pieces in Physics Today, like the one mentioned above, are RS. a13ean (talk) 22:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The jury is still out on Volkl. Or rather, it has not even been conveined. The fact that the Volkl Conspiracy is independent does not, of course, disqualify it. Being independent, will have to rely on it's own reputation and not that of the Post in what will certanly be a soon forthcoming RfC regarding its reliability or otherwise. Given that it's reputation is weighty and highly respected I predict it's reliability won't be an issue. but that is, of course, to be determined. Marteau (talk) 22:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Marteau, the Volokh blog is respected for their legal commentary. Some of their non-legal blog behaviour is gruesomely close to FoxNews. --Shabidoo | Talk 09:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Fox News is a reliable source for Wikipedia. Kelly ^hi! 10:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I said their "behaviour". Blog behaviour. The comparison of their non-legal blog behaviour with Fox News...would be the banter on the show Fox and Friends. I would hope no one ever uses program banter as a source except to document Fox News as a News Network. Same with MSNBC's banter. Or any banter for that matter. --Shabidoo | Talk 11:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

No, Fox news is not reliable for everything. As with just about everything WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. For example, when it comes to science and medical content, newspapers in general are not reliable and we look to different sources. Sources are rarely reliable for everything. Second Quantization (talk) 09:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, the Volokh Conspiracy is not a newsblog, and the reference is not the Washington Post. So the table above is quite incorrect. I'm hesitant to edit someone else's text on the talk page, so I request that someone update it. Or give me the green light to update it - not sure what the policy is in that regard.

As we've already discussed above, the VC is a self-published source that may be used as a RS by folowing those guidelines. And since the proprietor, Eugene Volokh, does not exercise editorial control over his co-bloggers each individual contributor would need to be evaluated individually. It's a mixed bag, with some contributors (EV, Orin Kerr) above reproach and others not so much (won't name names here, sorry). See http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/about/ and http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/01/21/in-brazil-you-can-always-find-the-amazon-in-america-the-amazon-finds-you-2/ for details about the VC-WAPO relationship. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The National Review Online picked up the story link. It also, unhappily, also repeats Davis' wikipedia spaz-out. Bonewah (talk) 13:00, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Breitbart as well [54] Bonewah (talk) 13:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Swordfish et al, please update the table to reflect the current info. I added the WaPost entry based on the linked comment and the immediately following comment that it was NewsBlog. The table is a summary, so can't be expected to hold more than the basic info thus be more liberal in your editing than with someone's text. The table was labeled as being created incomplete, so fill in the details. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:11, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

RE: The Volokh Conspiracy as a RS: I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_19#The_Volokh_Conspiracy_.28legal_blog.29 Resolved: Not an appropriate source for a WP:BLP. Protonk (talk) 19:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this predated the agreement with the WaPo. I'm not sure how much this changes things. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• In case anyone missed it in the other thread, there's a new source today from The Week[55]. This one seems to be written from the left side of the political spectrum and calls on Tyson to apologize. Can we add this to the table above? I'm terrible at Wikiformatting. Kelly ^hi! 13:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I've updated the table. Thanks for the head's up.

I don't know that there's much new here - note that The Week themselves have not presented any original reporting, they're just repeating what was posted at thefederalist.com. The two relevant passages are "Tyson has allegedly been caught embellishing anecdotes." (emphasis mine) and "Tyson needs to check carefully, in the future, that the quotes in his anecdotes are factual and not a figment of his imagination. And he should apologize to those who he has misquoted." Note that they are quite careful in their language and do not directly say that he has misquoted anyone or has made up anything up. This is the UK and their libel laws mean that accusations are usually done via implication rather than direct accusation, so damning by implication is as strong as we're likely to get. Still, while this is a RS for the fact that the federalist has made these accusations, it's not a RS that they are true. It does move the needle on the notability meter, but I don't think by very much. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You're probably right about the phrasing - on Twitter the author said he was "hedging" on that because he couldn't prove a negative.[56] Kelly ^hi! 14:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I think The Week HAS presented "original reporting" here. They are saying that his alleged fabrication of lecture material have caused climate deniers to point out that if Tyson is fabricating information in one realm, "Perhaps he's lying about that (climate change)as well.". I am not aware of any other source directly saying Tyson's alleged fabrications are damaging his message or his credibility. This is directly pertinent to his "overarching story" as another editor pharased it earlier, and adds weight to the argument that mention of these incidents is worthy of inclusion. Marteau (talk) 16:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I suppose if by "orignial reporting" you mean restating what some people are posting in the blogosphere, then yes they have - their article does provide a reliable source to confirm the fact that non-RS bloggers are saying certain things. If you mean independently verifying facts or otherwise coming up with new information then not so much. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

It is more than a "restating" of what some people are posting. It is a reliable source saying these allegations are causing some to question Tyson's reliability. That has been obviously implied by many sources and assumed by many, but has not explicity said by any I am aware of. That is, in fact, significant and not simply a "restating" as you call it. The lack of such an explicit linkage between the allegations and "what makes him noteworthy" has been used as a basis by editors for advocating exclusion of this issue. And where does The Week say this effect is limited to "non-RS bloggers" as you say? The Week said no such thing. They did say that this is "A much bigger problem" which indicates they think it's no trivial mattter Marteau (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

From the article:

"...climate deniers have latched on to this controversy to make a case against climate change."

That's about it. No specifics as to who is making the case, where they are making it, or what, exactly, they are saying. Agree that we don't know at this point whether the folks they are talking about are RS or not, but the only ones they specifically mention are non-RS. If we put this in the article it would cry out for a tag. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Many climate sceptics are nuts. If they are arguing that Tyson's concession he got this wrong has any relevance to Tyson's views on climate change, well, they deserve to be mocked.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

"That's about it"? You say that as if it minimizes what this source is saying and the linkage this source is providing. We now have a source directly saying Tyson's alleged fabrications are having an effect on his overarching story and what makes him notable (which includes his career as a speaker and provider of opinion and fact). That's a big issue regarding it's includability here. The lack of such a thing has been used as a basis for non-inclusion, and this source addresses that criticism. Because he does not go into details does not negate his statment which as a reliable source (unlike Wikipedia editors), he is not required to provide.[User:Marteau|Marteau]] (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"We now have a source directly saying Tyson's alleged fabrications are having an effect on his overarching story ..." Really? Where does the article say that? I understand that the people fanning the flames of this "controversy" desperately want it to have an effect, but so far from what I've seen the effect is minimal if even detectable. That may change as things develop, but for now we need to rely on what the RS sources actually say, not what we might wish for them to say. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"having an effect" was a poor choice of words. "directly related to" is better, and correct. Marteau (talk) 18:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"I don't know that there's much new here" - I was not aware that an RS was useful only for their original content. We can't use an RS which states that the sky is blue, because that's not original? We can't use an RS with a well-known JFK quote because that's not original? -- SEWilco (talk) 04:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Did someone say we can't use it as an RS? I'm not seeing that opinion expressed anywhere above. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 11:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, five of the sources in this list also reported on Obama saluting with a coffee cup in his hand. (Actually, it was probably tea, so they didn’t even get that right.) Five so far – this was only two days ago. I don't think anyone thinks this is something we should add to WP, or would consider carefully crafting a table like this to "prove" its notability. And, it's about the POTUS, not some popular science guy I never heard of. Problem is with these blogs, they publish even the tiniest insignificant items if it denigrates someone they dislike, and this echoes throughout the blogosphere until the next item pops up. Instead of Wikipedia becoming a part of the echo chamber, perhaps the text should be removed and the subject revisited in six months to see if anyone remembers it. Objective3000 (talk) 22:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Almost everything the President eats, wears, says, or does is remarked upon. That fact is supremely irrelevant to this discussion. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Almost none of the key refs under discussion here are blogs. The blog that is most discussed here is published on the Washington Post site. It most certainly did not comment on the president's salute. The National Review is not in any way a blog. It also did not comment on the president's coffee. The magazine Physics Today is not a blog and did not comment on the president. The Daily Beast is not a blog. Its small paragraph on the president's coffee pointed at a CNN article. The Week is a news magazine not a blog. It did not comment on the president's coffee. The Tampa Tribune is a newspaper, it has less than 90 words on the president's coffee salute. The Federalist (which started this entire discussion) has been talked about here as a "blog", it is not. It is a subscriber-based conservative opinion web magazine with professional paid staff. It has not commented on the president's coffee. This is a long way to say that the statement that this is all about an echo chamber of unreliable blogs is inaccurate. It would be best to stick to the subject under discussion rather than diverting discussion to the president's activities. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Additional article today from The Christian Post here - could someone add that to the table? Kelly ^hi! 06:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Their line, "At the time of this publication (yesterday), Tyson's Wikipedia entry still did not include references to Tyson misquoting Bush." makes their being considered a RS here impossible, in my opinion. The argument could be made that, although our article does include Tyson saying it, and and the Tampa paper saying it was slander, there is no text here saying it was a misquote. But I think that defense would be astretch. That would be playing games with words and context which goes towards unreliability. Marteau (talk) 06:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Added to the table. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a reminder, from WP:V: WP:RS

Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.

The Weekly Standard, National Review, and Tampa Tribune pieces fall under this classification and should be treated as such. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean WP:RS. -- Veggies (talk) 14:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Corrected. Thanks. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Additional ref from The Daily Caller, though the main topic is the AFD of The Federalist page.[57] Kelly ^hi! 07:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Article about the controversy from The Washington Examiner.[58] Kelly ^hi! 14:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Two obviously partisan sources. Are there any reliable sources available or is this just a storm in a teapot on the right? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

We've discussed it further up the page, but per WP:BIASED, partisan sources may still be considered reliable. Kelly ^hi! 08:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Editorials as sources on BLP

One editor has attempted to mark reliable sources that could be considered as editorials as unsuitable for a BLP - I have not seen that policy and would welcome a discussion/link. Kelly ^hi! 12:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually , yes you have seen this policy because it has been repeatedly pointed out to you in multiple forums, you are just refusing to acknowledge it. For the record, here it is again:

"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

"Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact."

Both are at WP:RS. Please read that policy and act accordingly. I am now going to restore the table to reflect whether each citation can be used in this article of a WP:BLP. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

None of the material being sourced is contentious. Even Tyson has acknowledged that it's true, as documented in multiple sources. Now please stop modifying work that has been compiled by others without consensus to do so. Kelly ^hi! 12:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the checkmarks I edited the table to reflect whether the source is usable here i.e. as a source for a WP:BLP because that's what we are dealing with at the present time. I understand that many of them are WP:RS for other issues, but that is not relevant to the current discussion. If you disagree, please discuss here rather than edit warring on the table. In particular, Physics Today gets a red check because it doesn't include the words "Bush" or "quote". Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see that proviso anywhere in WP:BLP. Kelly ^hi! 12:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

From WP:BLP

"Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP...; or that relies on sources that fail in some other way to meet Verifiability standards."

Editorial and opinion columns are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

What contentious material are you referring to? Kelly ^hi! 12:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

My attempts to edit the checkmarks to indicate what is usable for this matter as a WP:BLP were reverted, so I simply marked with text all the opinion or editorial items. After doing so, basically all that is left is Tyson's facebook posts. There's not a single straight news article treating the matter other than The Daily Beast and it merely reports on the accusations of thefederalist.com. The Physics today article doesn't even contain the words "Bush" or "misquote", so I don't see it as a source for anything other than the fact that thefederalist.com is making accusations. The others are opinion or editorial pieces which can't be relied on for statements of fact. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

That may be your opinion but I disagree. The information proposed to be cited to these sources is not contentious - even Tyson himself admits the quote and characterization of Bush were incorrect. So I'm just not seeing the BLP concern here. Can you specify? Kelly ^hi! 14:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

We need to establish facts for the article. Opinion and editorial pieces can't be relied on to establish facts. We don't have much to go on to establish facts. Maybe the facebook posts are enough for the facts, and maybe all those opinion pieces are enough to establish weight, but to my eyes the sourcing looks pretty thin once you start evaluating it according to Wikipedia standards for a WP:BLP. Reasonable people may differ, which is why the material is contentious. Pretending that it isn't doesn't make it so. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 14:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The Federalist, the source for all of this, does a lot more than say Tyson misquoted Bush. It goes on rants in, by my count, thirteen articles lambasting Tyson’s religion (or lack thereof), politics, integrity, acumen and scientific knowledge; and ascribes many scurrilous motivations to Tyson bereft of any evidence. There exist obvious BLP problems. Objective3000 (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Editorials, such as the one from Rich Lowry, editor of National Review at Politico Magazine may be a good source for the article on Rich Lowry, but not for this article. This is a BLP and such sources are not acceptable. Can you image having an editorial by Rachel Maddow brought to an article as source for Sara Palin? - Cwobeel (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting example - Public image of Sarah Palin contains numerous statements sourced to her political opponents. Kelly ^hi! 06:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For questions of WP:WEIGHT we do not need the WP:RS to establish facts. All that must be true is that it is a WP:RS that has talked about the importance of the subject. The facts as to if he was mistaken can be verified from the WP:SELFSOURCE (which is perfectly fine to use in a WP:BLP), and what bush said can be verified from a variety of sources. Other facts should not be included in the article. If you want to downgrade some of the sources to yellow as biased/opinion, that would be ok, that just means we need to be careful to remove any POV from any facts we cite from it (see WP:BIASED). For instance the most recent politico piece refers to the quotes as evasive and condescending, we should not include that without a "Rich Lowery says" kind of qualification. Split the facts (what Tyson said) from the opinion in the article and it is perfectly fine to use as a WP:RS --Obsidi (talk) 15:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

We will have to agree to disagree. Editorials such as this are not useful for BLPs and attribution does not remove the problem either. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing in BLP policy that prohibits citing opinion pieces. This is duly reflected in the fact that such pieces are commonly cited in Wikipedia biographies (!). According to WP:NEWSORG, When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. Rich Lowry has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, Time magazine and a host of other reputable publications. He's a significant voice by any standard. Andreas JN466 16:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Is Rich Lowry is an expert on Tyson and an expert on quote fabrication? --Shabidoo | Talk 19:00, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Lowry is a prominent commentator on US politics, and the presidency in particular. Tyson commented on the statements of a past president of the United States: Lowry is an expert in that field whose opinions and perspectives are sought by the country's foremost press publications. Lowry is no expert on astrophysics, but to the extent that Tyson commented on politics, Lowry – and not Tyson – is the expert in that field. Andreas JN466 00:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

To get hypothetical, I could imagine citing Rachel Maddow for the claim that Rachel Maddow was critical of Sarah Palin, and could imagine citing Sarah Palin for her response (in the above hypothetical). In many cases it could be inappropriate to cite these people, but in limited cases it could very well be valid. The same goes for here - in the limited context, I think you could cite Rich Lowry or thefederalist.com, to establish that a claim was made, and could cite Tyson directly for his response. I think this falls under the self-source guidlines outlined in WP:SELFSOURCE. Whether these are the best available sources that can be used is another matter. Chester Lunt (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Countless BLPs, even high-profile ones like Barack Obama and Sarah Palin, are full of opinions. Opinion pieces from reliable sources are perfectly acceptable for citing uncontested facts, and for citing properly attributed opinions. "Neil Tyson misquoted George W. Bush" is a fact. "Neil Tyson is a serial fabulist" would be an improperly attributed opinion asserted as fact and could not be included here. "John Smith of The Daily Newspaper said that Tyson is a serial fabulist" is a properly attributed opinion and inclusion would be determined by editorial consensus. Kelly ^hi! 06:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• How can the National Review, the NYPost and Politico be considered three resources when the NYPost and Politico cites are an opinion column by the editor of the National Review? If a columnist has a column in 100 papers, is that 100 sources? Objective3000 (talk) 10:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

  As far as I know, Rich Lowry didn't write about Tyson at National Review. The Politico and Post pieces are similar, but not identical - looks like the Politico version is the longer one because it talks about the controversy occurring here at Wikipedia. I suppose an editor could choose whichever source they wanted for their cite. Kelly ^hi! 11:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Needs changing

"Race and social justice" section begins: "In an undated interview at Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Tyson talked about being an African American and one of the most visible and well known scientists in the world. - this is a ludicrous claim, as he is unknown outside the US (maybe plus Canada). Either change to "a highly visible scientist" or something, or put in quotes if the source actually says this. Johnbod (talk) 16:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The source (youtube video of interview) provides no support for the claim that Tyson is “one of the most visible and well known scientists in the world.” Furthermore, the quote of Tyson that follows is somewhat misleading because it is condensed from a longer conversation from 7:20-10:40 of the video. The quote should be edited to add ellipses in three places: (1) between “nothing to do with being black” and “And at that point, I realized”; (2) between “black people are somehow dumb” and “I wondered, maybe”; and (3) between “who's smart and who's dumb” and “I said to myself.”Beneficial nematode (talk) 17:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your suggested edit of “a highly visible scientist,” while Tyson is both highly visible and is a scientist, is he really highly visible as a scientist? According to Science Magazine,Tyson is the scientist with the most twitter followers but “only 151 citations.” In comparison, Brian Cox is the scientist with the 2nd greatest number of twitter followers and has “more than 33,000 citations.” Perhaps the article should be changed to something like “a highly visible science educator.” Beneficial nematode (talk) 17:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, but only in the US, not that we need say that. A grumpy thread about this page on Village pump has produced a global chorus of "Neil who?" Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Standards

As Marteau was so kind to point out, the vast majority of this page does not conform to WP:NOTFORUM standards. I officially request that ALL such material be immediately deleted. Wvnd (talk) 17:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• To the contrary, it seems to me that a vast majority of the article is related to editing of the article and in no way violates the guidelines. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 17:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Ditto. There has been a reasoned conversation with both sides giving valid points refering to wikipedia policy. As it stands the far majority of editors have given multiple reasons for why this paragraph gives undue weight. Multiple users have so far cited the following problems: WP:COI, WP:RS, WP:BIASED, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTABLE, WP:BLP, WP:RSUW, WP:UNDUE, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NEWSBLOG). --Shabidoo | Talk 18:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I absolutely did NOT say anything CLOSE to "the vast majority of this page does not conform to WP:NOTFORUM standards." Watch what you say when ascribing things to another editor. I simply reverted ONE editor and ONE vandalism. Marteau (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request - Fix italics

Could someone please fix the italics in the following places:

• add italics to Tampa Tribune in Neil deGrasse Tyson#Politics?
• add italics to Ron and Fez in Neil deGrasse Tyson#Media appearances?
• remove italics from James Randi Educational Foundation in Neil deGrasse Tyson#Media appearances?

Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 20:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Discretionary Sanctions

A reminder that due to WP:NEWBLPBAN this article is subject to DS. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:47, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Image choice for infobox

Neil deGrasse Tyson
Tyson hosting the 40th anniversary celebration of Apollo 11 at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, July 2009

Neil deGrasse Tyson
Neil deGrasse Tyson at the November 29, 2005 meeting of the NASA Advisory Council, in Washington, D.C.

Wouldn't this: File:Tyson - Apollo 40th anniversary 2009.jpg be a better choice for the main (infobox image) that the current one: File:Neil deGrasse Tyson August 3, 2014 (cropped).jpg--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Good catch. The current image does have a very unencyclopedic feel to it, like an informal fan-photo. I agree the photo you suggested would be an upgrade, but I checked Commons and found this one! It's an extremely professional photograph taken by NASA photographers. I tested previewing the page using this photo in the infobox, it looks extremely encyclopedic. The caption is Neil deGrasse Tyson at the November 29, 2005 meeting of the NASA Advisory Council, in Washington, D.C. Alsee (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. --Shabidoo | Talk 03:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Seconded which one? Sphilbrick's suggestion or Alsee's? I support Sphilbrick's, and wonder why the current image is there, unless it is to denigrate the subject. Alsee's suggestion is only marginally better than the current. Moriori (talk) 03:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

S Philbrick's image (Apollo 40th anniversary). --Shabidoo | Talk 05:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I inserted both imageboxes here for easy comparison. Note that Sphilbrick's image is already used in the body of the article, so we'd have to do some image shuffling if we wanted to use that one for the infobox. Alsee (talk) 07:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for posting the images, I should have done that. While I like Alsee's suggested image, it is marred by the intruding head, which doesn't look easy to crop. I was hesitant to offer my observation about the current image, but Moriori nailed it. While I have been active in discussions above to include information that is critical of Tyson, I think he is a very effective communicator, and an excellent spokesperson for science education. I think he dserves a more professional looking photo as the lead image.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the 2009 image should go in the infobox, the 2005 image should go where the 2009 image is currently, and the current infobox photo should be retired. I agree with the idea that the head intruding on the 2005 image disqualifies it for the infobox. Plus you can see his cufflinks in the 2009 image. —    Bill W.    (Talk)  (Contrib)  (User:Wtwilson3)  — 13:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• While I agree that both of these photos are "nicer" (particularly the '09), the problem is that they're not current photos (as befits a living person article). Tyson is "grayer" now, and the 2014 photo accurately depicts this.--Froglich (talk) 02:31, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think Tyson looks all that different in the 2014 photo than in the 2005 or 2009 photos. You get essentially the same impression of his features from all three photos. I also don't think we have any obligation to show the most recent photo of someone, we just want to make sure it's illustrative. A counter-example to the "use the most recent photo" doctrine is Abe Vigoda, whose article has a picture that is 7 years old, but the one used above the fold is 37 years old. It's not like in the past 5 years Tyson has been attacked by birds and now uses large facial scars and an eyepatch as a stylistic trademark - he looks like basically the same guy with a few more patches of grey hair, maybe his weight has changed a bit and he might have a few more wrinkles, but it's not a significant difference. I also wouldn't be surprised if the lower-quality lighting and impromptu nature of the photo shoot were the only reason he would look "older" in the 2014 photo. I think the 2009 photo looks best. 0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 14:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems that there's consensus that the current infobox image should be dumped, consensus that Tyson hosting the 40th should be the infobox pic, and I think a general view that Neil deGrasse Tyson at NASA Advisory Council is worthy of inclusion elsewhere. This requires a little shuffling.

Proposal:

• Tyson in conversation with Richard Dawkins moves from bottom of Spirituality to the top, where Tyson hosting the 40th is. It should have been there in the first place.
• Tyson hosting the 40th goes from spirituality to the lede infobox.
• Tyson at the screening of Cosmos in lede infobox gets dropped.
• Neil deGrasse Tyson at NASA Advisory Council goes next to NASA where Tyson with Bill Nye and U.S. President is.
• Tyson with Bill Nye and U.S. President moves up to RIGHT side at top of Politics.
• I also propose dropping Tyson promoting the Cosmos in career section. It's a really bad photo, Tyson is barely visible behind the photographer and the yellow frame. The double glass pane in front of his chest doesn't help either. Alsee (talk) 09:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal entirely. The only thing that I'm unsure about is the last point. I'm not sure that photo is actually hurting the article, and that section might just be a huge block of text without it. If you look at the full size version, he's a lot more obviously there. Maybe re-cropping that image and then increasing its display size on the page would help. Alternatively, the uncropped version of the current infobox photo is also a Cosmos promotional event. It would need to be re-cropped to frame it better and to remove the watermark, but perhaps that could be a replacement for the Tyson-in-Australia photo.

Another potential change to your proposal would be rather than inserting the 2005 NASA hearing photo where the current Bill Nye photo is, insert this group photo in front of a lunar lander instead, since it's very obvious that it's a NASA event just looking at it. The downside is we'd have two group photos with Bill Nye in them right next to one another in the article, which is not aesthetically ideal.

In think we should pull the trigger on at least the first 3 bullet points, since I doubt those will be controversial. I'd do it myself, but apparently the page is protected (no protection template, though, what's up with that?). 0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 15:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of shuffling the Nye/Obama/Tyson 'selfie' shot up to politics, drop that one and instead use one from this NASA page (http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/dr-neil-degrasse-tyson-visits-nasa-goddard/#.VCgiJ_ldXzc) for the politics section. (For clarification, it's not the persons in the photo, it's the selfie that strikes me as "could do better." Kerani (talk) 15:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the framing of that photo is fine, but it's a bit grainy and out of focus. Also, I'm not sure that conveys the same concept of Tyson's political activities as the NASA-related photos (which are relevant to the "NASA" section anyway, for which there are already two good photos). Plus, it's not like the photo of Nye, Obama and Tyson is a selfie - it's a professionally taken photograph of Nye, Tyson and Obama taking a selfie together, which conveys something about their relationship and engagement with, modern culture or something. 0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 14:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We now have the agreed picture in the infobox, and Tyson-with-RichardDawkins moved up to fill slot next to the Spirituality heading. I moved Tyson-with-Obama up a paragraph so it's right next to the Politics heading. I didn't touch the NASA section yet. I still think Tyson-at-NASA-Advisory-Council may be good there. I think it's a more serious-science-work portrayal, a counterpoint to the Tyson-as-communicator tone of some of the other images. Alsee (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request

Please add Category:Neil deGrasse Tyson to the bottom of the page. Kelly ^hi! 12:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done Gamaliel (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Shortening length of full protection

There have been some major advancements in this story since the (justified) full protection for edit warring was put into place. Currently the protection is set to expire October 11th. I think this is clearly too long. I am changing the protection to expire 24 hours from now, which leaves plenty of time for discussion as to the wisdom of it. I would not oppose immediate lifting of protection if someone else thinks that's wise.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Remove italics

I have nothing to say about the discussion over this section, but "Our God is the God who named the stars," should not be italicized. Quotations are denoted by quotation marks only. See MOS:NOITALQUOTE. Reywas92^Talk 21:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The image with Bill Nye should also be at the top of the section so it doesn't cause the odd spacing around NASA and white space below it. Reywas92^Talk 21:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Not done: @Reywas92: The quote is not in the current version of the article, so there's nothing to do there. About the picture - which Bill Nye picture do you mean, and what do you mean by "at the top of the section"? Which section, and left or right? (Please reactivate the edit protected template when you reply.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 10:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed change about the Bush quote

Everyone has been arguing over the bush quote, but now that Neil Tyson has confirmed what he was referring to, I think this can be explained in a way that everyone can agree with. Someone might want slightly different wording, etc. or different references, that's fine, but lets work to getting a final version everyone can agree with, so here is what I propose. Eliminate the current paragraph at the end of the Views\Politics section and replace it with the following:

On September 16th, 2014 the website The Federalist accused Neil Tyson of quoting President George W. Bush out of context. Neil Tyson had claimed that within a week of the 9/11 terrorist attack, that President Bush in an attempt to distance Muslim fundamentalists from Christians loosely quoted Genesis when he said “Our God is the God who named the stars.” Neil Tyson has confirmed that he was referring to President Bush’s February 2003 speech on the space shuttle challenger’s explosion Columbia and that he "transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote." In that speech President Bush quotes not Genesis but Isaiah when he said “He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name." President Bush then says, “The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today.” This speech was on February 1st, 2003, not within a week of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and said nothing about Muslims.

--Obsidi (talk) 22:58, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

References

If there MUST be something in the article (and by the way there hasn't been anything remotely approaching consensus on the issue and there has been no agreement on including any of this in the article yet) then it should be way shorter than this. --Shabidoo | Talk 22:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I am at least of the opinion having read through the issue posted above, that much of the disagreement was on if there was a reliable source to say which quote Neil Tyson was referring to. All that has changed now that we have a WP:SELFSOURCE, from Neil Tyson, and should no longer be controversial. I don't think anything I posted above can be disputed (do you disagree?). You say that it should be "way shorter" by which I assume you are saying that my proposal is giving it too much weight. This is about the accusation that he took the president of the united states out of context, which if true, would seem to be worth commenting on at least a bit. I am not proposing a new section or any more then a single paragraph on the controversy. Maybe other people feel even that is too much, but I don't at least at the moment. Why do you feel that is too much weight for the topic? --Obsidi (talk) 23:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

IMHO, the reason that this gives undue weight is that President Bush actually did make comments very similar to the comment, in the same time frame, on the same subject, as claimed by Tyson, and the general thrust of what he is saying is a perfectly honest opinion, whether or not others agree with the opinion. I’m not trying to bash Bush. (I personally think he is far more moderate toward Muslims than these blogs.) I’m saying that this is a ‘no harm, no foul’ misquote that has been turned into another faux-controversy by a blog so extremist that it equates Wikipedia editors with beheading jihadists and the due-diligence discussions of Wikipedia volunteer editors as equal to the crucifixion of Christ. It should be clear that this blog, that erroneously claims to be cited by every major network and news outlet, is trying to raise its exposure to the level of its claimed exposure by repeatedly accusing Wikipedia to be a part of yet another oddball conspiracy, which is grist for the mill of a part of the conspiracy-soaked blogosphere. I don’t see any reason for any inclusion whatsoever. If there is, it should be one sentence in a criticism section. But, if honestly stated, it will make him look better as it’s about as shallow a criticism as one can imagine. I would be delighted if that were the worst criticism one could find about me. Objective3000 (talk) 00:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Uhmmm...No President Bush did not actually make comments very similar. That is the whole point. From the (ABA award winning, WaPo hosted) VC blog: "Neil deGrasse Tyson’s story has three central claims: 1) Bush uttered that precise phrase, 2) in the days immediately after 9/11, 3) in order to distance American religion from that practiced by radical Muslims. As you have probably already guessed, every single claim is false. Every one! Then there’s Tyson’s aside that Bush’s quote was a “loose quote” of the book of Genesis. Yep, that’s false, too." There is a reason that this story has been picked up broadly in mainstream media, it is deemed noteworthy when a prominent public intellectual makes claims of this nature. Capitalismojo (talk) 00:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec)"Very similar"? Um -- the quote claimed was clearly anti-Muslim. The actual quote does not appear to be anti-Muslim. The claimed quote had Bush claiming God named the stars, the actual quote is from Isaiah, who is a prophet as far as Muslims are concerned. The actual quote is clearly aimed at showing the grief about seven dead astronauts, and has nothing at all to do with anything else. Sorry - there is a significant difference between the actual quote and the anecdotal claims made by Tyson, as Tyson now acknowledges. And calling a blog "extremist" for daring to present the evidence about the error in the quote is not really very impressive here at all. Collect (talk) 00:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

1. The Devine inspiration section of Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War clearly shows Bush statements that are similar. Not exact, but along the same lines and clearly offensive to Muslims, no matter how intended. 2. This has NOT been picked up broadly in mainstream media. Objective3000 (talk) 01:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The "Devine inspiration" section (should be divine) had this quote "God inspired me to hit al Qaeda, and so I hit it. And I had the inspiration to hit Saddam, and so I hit him." This has nothing at all to do with the quote "Our God is the God who named the stars." It is not similar at all. -- Obsidi (talk) 02:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You can connect the space shuttle deaths with the Iraq War? Really?? And quoting a prophet revered by Muslims is insulting to Muslims? Really?? I am not quite as gullible as to suppose that you are correct on those claims. Collect (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say anything slightly close to any of that. Objective3000 (talk) 01:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Half of what you wrote is you going off about The Federalist. Most of us who support inclusion have agreed The Federalist is no longer considered a reliable source and most of us who support inclusion are well aware of their tendency to froth at the mouth. Regarding the weight issue, the way to create proper weight is to include opposing viewpoints, not by precluding "any inclusion whatsoever" or limit it to "one sentence". Reliable sources saying why this dispute is not a big deal can be included to give proper weight, but this whole notion that nothing about it must be included due to weight issues is a misapplication of the weight guidelines. Marteau (talk) 01:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I hope you’re not suggesting that WP should include all refs from people that “froth at the mouth”. I don’t see that in weight guidelines. Some guy is trying to control the actions of WP editors in order to increase his exposure via WP:CAN campaigning. Will we have weeks long discussions every time some blog tries to gain hits in this manner over something so inconsequential as a quote that was less than perfect, but actually on point as to quotes that were made on the same subject in the same time frame? This is an encyclopedia with excellent rules and procedures. Not an advertising medium. The tail should not wag the dog. Objective3000 (talk) 01:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Fear not and rest assured, I suggested nothing of the sort. Marteau (talk) 01:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC) (edit) AHHH, I see where your confusion lies. I said "Regarding the weight issue, the way to create proper weight is to include opposing viewpoints, not by precluding "any inclusion whatsoever" or limit it to "one sentence". That is true. I stand by that. And the way that is accomplished, I said in the sentence that followed: "Reliable sources saying why this dispute is not a big deal can be included to give proper weight". Reliable sources, that is. NOT The Federalist. Which I have said before and will say again, cannot be considered a reliable source here. Marteau (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Objective3000, The quote was not on the same subject, this has been made quite clear. Arzel (talk) 01:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The quotes I linked to are about the run-up to the Iraq War. The original quote by Tyson is about post 9/11. Same thing. I amd not talking about the Challenger quote. Objective3000 (talk) 11:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

<-The first line of your proposed edit should, in my opinion, be changed. The article cited actually accuses NdGT of "quote fabrication" not quoting out of context. Perhaps the line could read "On September 16th, 2014 the website The Federalist accused Neil Tyson of fabricating quotes attributed to President George W. Bush. I also think the second line should quote NdGT directly, rather than explaining. Thoughts? Bonewah (talk) 13:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we include the fact that support was drummed up for this edit of the article IN the article? It seems pretty notable to me that the right is trying to Swift Boat Tyson. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/28/1332921/-The-Al-Gorification-of-Neil-deGrasse-Tyson Mystic55 (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Protection change

This article was under full protection through sometime in October, but the protection will expire later today. Many longtime editors will be aware that the change in protection can trigger a number of edits, sometimes triggering a need for further protection.

Given the intensity of feelings about this article, it would be wise to reach a consensus on this page before making any substantive changes. Obviously, I have no authority to insist on this; I am simply sharing that edits made, even if substantial, after discussion on a talk page are less likely to trigger a new protection that several editors falling over each other to make changes and starting an edit war.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We still have a significant number of editors insisting that there be absolutely no mention of this issue in the encyclopedia. That suggests we have a long way to go to reach consensus. Jimbo is wiser than I am in these cases, and I am not questioning him re-opening the article tomorrow, for he knows the dynamics of the encyclopedia better than I, but I cannot see anything happening tomorrow but continued warring, perhaps eventually leading to Jimbo having to step in further. That said, I will not edit without consensus, and I hope others will too. Marteau (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Count me in as one of those "significant" number of editors. This is very clearly yet-another manufactured controversy being pushed by the conservative noise machine. We have no obligation to add such controversies to Wikipedia, especially to any BLP. No, this really needs to end, and it needs to end now. Viriditas (talk) 02:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

How is this manufactured? NGT seriously misquoted GWB and implied something that is simply not true. WP is not here to defend NGT against his own actions. As a person of science myself, when we run fast and loose with "factual" stories that turn out not to be true, then trust is lost. Arzel (talk) 03:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I would say that phrases like "conservative noise machine" have no real usefulness in Wikipedia. The only question is whether reliable third party sources have taken note of the controversy, which they have. It's a significant matter that needs to be addressed in the article in an appropriate fashion. [Addendum: Obsidi's very matter-of-fact and non-editorializing suggest above seems like a good starting point. It's probably a bit too long but cut down to essentials, it appears to cover the issue fairly.]--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The "conservative noise machine" or The Republican Noise Machine, however you want to use the term, has a lasting currency and is in wide usage in the United States. The phrase is very useful, as it accurately describes the many manufactured controversies created by conservative think tanks and lobby groups. If you believe this issue is a "real" controversy that has been discussed in some significant way by reliable secondary sources, I would love to see a single source for this claim. AFAIK, it isn't a real controversy and it hasn't been discussed as such. Based on this dearth of independent sources, it does not appear to have any encyclopedic value. Anyone who looks at this problem critically, immediately sees it for what it truly is: a fallacious ad hominem. "You can't trust Neil deGrasse Tyson on the subject of science because he misquoted George Bush." I can't see a valid argument for adding this nonsense to Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 03:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that NGT uses stories to convey misuse of numbers, statistics, and science within his presentations. These stories are presented as actual factual examples. Count me as one person that fights situations where people don't understand the meaning/difference of Median and Mean; don't understand that 1,000mg is the same as 1g; have a poor or non-existent understanding of probabilities and risk. I appreciate what he is trying to do, but when you misquote what people say within the context of those stories the very people you are trying to educate lose trust in the message you are trying to convey. If you don't see this as a problem then I don't think you really understand why this is an issue. If you actually read what people are saying about this you can see why they think it is a problem. Arzel (talk) 04:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

While there are only 14 scripts in Hollywood, there is still only one script at the Heartland Institute. "You can't trust climate scientists, look at how they predicted global cooling and then misused and altered the data to fabricate global warming!" We know how the noise machine helps the energy companies frame the narrative, after all they've been doing it for several decades now, and several books have documented it (Merchants of Doubt, Doubt is their Product). But do you understand how they deliver the manufactured controversy? They get their unknown operatives (Davis, Tracinski) to write for unknown websites (Federalist) that slip under the funding radar (It must be true, I read it on the Internet). Then, they get the known opinion bloggers in mainstream sources to comment about the obscure sources to give it an audience (Adler). And, presto, Tyson's defense of climate science is suspect because he misquoted George Bush. And this should go in Wikipedia, why? Viriditas (talk) 06:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It would appear that it is you that is ranting about GW here. However, if you want to go there, you should not want someone that makes up quotes defending your narrative. And frankly I think you are upset with the wrong people/person. Arzel (talk) 16:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Arzel, I can see how it might appear as a rant to someone not familiar with the background. Groups like Heartland have been working with bloggers and other media representatives to character assassinate climate scientists in order to make it seem like climate science itself is discredited. This has been going on for years. Just as the film Avatar looks awfully similar to Dances With Wolves, so too does the circumstances surrounding climategate look identical to Tyson-gate. I'm only using these two incidents as an example, as there are dozens to look at, many of which are documented in the books I mentioned up above and similar works so it's very easy to substantiate what I'm saying. In the climategate event, you had a libertarian conservative blogger (Delingpole) closely connected to Heartland and its operatives, "break" a story about how leaked emails by climate scientists cast doubt on climate science, alleging they "fabricated" data to promote AGW. Delingpole published his article several weeks before the Copenhagen global climate summit, and it successfully deflected attention from the conference. Following this same pattern, in 2014, you had several libertarian conservative bloggers (Davis, Tracinski) closely connected to Heartland and its operatives, "break" several stories about how Tyson's grasp on statistics and "fabrication" of quotes cast doubt on "Tyson’s alarmist views on global warming" (Davis). Davis and Tracinski published several attack pieces on Tyson several weeks before the largest climate change march in history. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The Daily Beast, one of the few mainstream sources to take note of this, attributes this controversy to the conservative noise machine and notes that reaction outside of it has been "overwhelmingly dismissive". We should be careful not to over-represent a minority viewpoint on this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like exactly the sort of thing that needs to be in the article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

That's assuming that it belongs in the article at all, and I don't think it does. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. The way to address these nasty, evil products of this supposed "Conservative Noise Machine" is to give proper weight to views, perspectives and information which refute it, not to obliterate it with a "Liberal Silencing Machine". Marteau (talk) 15:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The Week notes that this controversy has had an impact on the climate change debate.[59] Kelly ^hi! 06:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If by impact you mean "nothing has changed", then yes, it has had an impact. BTW, there is no debate, that is a talking point used by Heartland. Viriditas (talk) 06:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"Given the intensity of feelings about this article, it would be wise to reach a consensus on this page before making any substantive changes." I very much agree with that. When the protection is lifted later today, there will likely be a flurry of edits, reversions, reverts of the reversions, etc. My recommendation would be to leave the article as-is until the RFC runs its course, with perhaps the addition of a sentence stating that Tyson has admitted that he muffed the quote and {apologized} or {said he would apologize} . We can evaluate further in the light of the RFC results and perhaps more press coverage. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we please drop the issue of climate in this discussion? As the sub-head of the Week article says "Tyson has allegedly been caught embellishing anecdotes. And climate change is still real." Not a single editor has proposed mentioning climate science in any way, shape or form. It looks like a straw man argument. Let's return to the issue at hand and determine whether the draft by Obsidi can be trimmed. The issue of whether the incident deserves mention at all is the subject of the on-going RfC. We can craft appropriate language, and when that RfC is closed, that conclusion can be enacted, if it means removal.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I have no intention of bringing the global warming debate to this page. I was just musing as to whether The Week's analysis of the quote controversies' impact should be included or not. I'm thinking probably not, at least for now, as they are the only RS I've seen that has put forward this interpretation. Kelly ^hi! 13:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Why pretend that the elephant isn't in the room? The only reason the misquotes are an issue is because Tyson mocks those who deny Climate Change. No evidence for noteworthiness has been advocated of inclusion save by sources that also attack Tyson's attitude on AGW. Not one. Mystic55 (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, and anyone who took the time to read the sources in question, quickly found Davis and Tracinski connecting the dots for us, with Davis saying

Tyson’s alarmist views on global warming, views which are endorsed by climate models but summarily rejected by reality

Tracinski removes the mask entirely and admits his scheme in the open:

But the point of the whole thing is to write off anyone who even mentions the mysterious absence of global warming as someone who has, in Marvel’s words, “decided to sever all ties with reality” by, you know, mentioning relevant facts. Here we see, in action, the signature scientific style of the Neil deGrasse Tyson era. Present a scientific theory in crudely oversimplified form, omitting any uncertainties or counter-arguments. Pass off complex claims as if they are obvious “basic physics.” Then dismiss any skepticism as the resentment of the primitive, ignorant, unscienced masses against their enlightened betters.

So it's all there, right out in the open, with the Heartland Institute sitting pretty behind it all. Anyone who would claim that this isn't about climate change hasn't been paying attention. This is how climate change denial works: 1) pick a scientist 2) attack the scientist by accusing them of any kind of malfeasance, no matter how small or insignificant. Since nobody is perfect or faultless, this strategy will work against anyone. 3) connect the malfeasance with climate change science in some way in order to cast doubt on the conclusions. It doesn't matter if the allegations of malfeasance have nothing to do with the climate science, the point is to generate and sow doubt in the science. "You can't trust scientist X, look at his Y, therefore climate science is a fraud!" 4) collect your paycheck from fake "think tanks" acting as front groups for the energy industry. 5) Profit! Viriditas (talk) 21:35, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"it's all there" = Conspiracy theory. Unfortunately, we do not accuse Wikipedia editors of being part of any paid conspiracies without having evidence to back up such assertions. Kindly provide your evidence. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about, Collect? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Collect, "Climate change denial" is the conspiracy, and it's actually classified as a conspiracy theory. Pointing out that groups like Heartland are behind this, is not a conspiracy. I suggest you do a bit of research before commenting here again. There are dozens of examples in the academic journals, books, and papers documenting these repeated attacks on climate scientists and people like Tyson who support it. These attacks are not a "conspiracy", it's a documented fact. Furthermore, this is a uniquely American phenomenon; the rest of the world does not "doubt" or question climate science, it's only in the US, where energy lobbies run disinformation campaigns against scientists, that we find it to be a problem. In the rest of the world, climate science is generally accepted and not under constant attack like this. Part of the problem is that the American media has been infiltrated by energy-funded "think tanks" (really lobby groups for coal, oil, and gas) who promote a false balance on the subject to make people think there is an actual "debate". Viriditas (talk) 21:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

proposal

Currently we have:

Tyson has claimed that, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, then-President George W. Bush said, "Our God is the God who named the stars," in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)".[59] Tom Jackson of the Tampa Tribune called it "... a vicious, gratuitous slander."[60]

To (adding proper cites of course)

In speeches, Tyson cited George W. Bush as saying after 9/11 "Our God is the God who named the stars" in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)". Columnists and bloggers noted that the quote was incorrectly used by Tyson misquoted Bush, and that the correct quote was from the memorial for the seven deadChallenger astronauts, and that the full context did not refer to Muslims at all, but was

"In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.' The same creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today."

Tyson on Sep 26, 2014, defended his use of the quotation on Facebook: "I have explicit memory of those words being spoken by the President. I reacted on the spot, making note for possible later reference in my public discourse. Odd that nobody seems to be able to find the quote anywhere -- surely every word publicly uttered by a President gets logged." and then on Sep 27 he emended his position stating "Good to see that the Bush quote was found. Thanks to all who did the searching. I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote."

This avoids any accusatory tone, or any use of "but it was found by extreme right wing nuts" or the like - sticking to straightforward reportage of the incident. Collect (talk) 15:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that an embellishment of an anecdote requires coverage in a BLP. But what is notable, is the brouhaha that this embellishment has caused in right-wing media. So if we are to include anything about this misquote, is that aspect, as it should be obvious to anyone what are the reason this has become a fabricated controversy. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What an interesting view of a straightforward section - I think you might be evincing the "we can not allow anything from extreme right wing folks in Wikipedia" or the like? That you find this all a "fabricated controversy" would appear to mean you think that Tyson did not misuse or misrecall the Bush quote, but that horse has left the barn as far as I can tell. Collect (talk) 15:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Oh, no. He obviously did misquote, but what is notable is not the misquote, but the over-reaction to it by right-wing media. That's what I mean. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

So NGT mis-speaks and mis-attributes a quote by GWB it and the only controversy is that the right is pissed about it? That is a good argument. Arzel (talk) 16:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I like the proposed edit above. I recomend we change "seven dead astronauts" to "the seven Challenger astronauts" With a wlink of course. Also, i think saying that the quote was "incorrectly used" implies that the quote was what GWB actaully said, but that NdGT should not have used the quote in the context that he did. I think we should change the line to "Columnists and bloggers noted that the quote was incorrect". Bonewah (talk) 15:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Arzel (talk) 16:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

No, the proposal above is far too long. — TPX 17:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Counterproposal:

Criticism

Tyson was accused of misquoting President George W. Bush in a post 9/11 speech in a manner that caused the President to sound religiously divisive.(ref) Tyson later apologized and withdrew the quote.(ref) Objective3000 (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Grossly inadequate, and seems to totally ignore Tyson's responses to the accusations. The speech was not "Post 9/11" as Tyson had used it, was not about 9/11, and made no religiously divisive claims. Tyson has not "withdrawn" the quote, nor did he "apologize" (to whom?) - he simply thanked people for finding the correct quote. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Although he has not apologized, he has stated his intention to do so https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/516238870514388995 Gaijin42 (talk) 15:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The criticism was that Tyson suggested it was in a post 9/11 speech and it was religiously divisive. That's the point. If you want to include Tyson's dismissive responses to the Federalist, would you also include their nonsense about beheading, crucifixion, etc? If this is to be included at all, it should be "just the facts ma'am".Objective3000 (talk) 16:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Worthless. You can't talk about the section without including the quotes. Also, as Gaijin has stated, he has not appologized as of yet. Arzel (talk) 16:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This is much better. Concise and to the point. For the time being, we can say Tyson acknowledged the error, instead of apologising for it (which he intends to do shortly). — TPX 17:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The counterproposal fails for the reasons enumerated by Collect. The proposal is a bit long. Can we consider removing the initial defense by Tyson?

Suggested wording:

In speeches, Tyson cited George W. Bush as saying after 9/11 "Our God is the God who named the stars" in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)". Columnists and bloggers noted that the quote was incorrectly used by Tyson, misquoted Bush, and that the correct quote was from the memorial for the seven Challenger astronauts, and that the full context did not refer to Muslims at all, but was:

"In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.' The same creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today."

Tyson agreed, stating "Good to see that the Bush quote was found. Thanks to all who did the searching. I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote."

No, no, no! It's absolutely insane to provide more coverage to this than to Cosmos: A Space-Time Odyssey or declassifying Pluto as a planet which is still in the news 8 years later. Will this quote thing still be in the news 8 years later? It's barely in the news now. For heaven's sake, Tyson's stance on Pluto forced 75 years of astronomy textbooks to be rewritten! Sheesh. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Pluto, Schmuto, there are axes to grind here! What I find fascinating about this whole dispute is that the sort of loose recollection of facts which Tyson displayed here is quite common among commentators, it is hard to predict which become picked up on. But its day to day sniping at best.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 16:35, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of words for something that STILL has not hit a single national paper or network. Objective3000 (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We don't delete Pokemon articles because 19 century architecture is undercovered, so it starts out as a false argument. Why are you bringing up Pluto? If Tyson did have a role in it, the role wasn't big enough to get even a mention in Mike Brown's How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming. I read it , and while it is possible it slipped my recollection, I did a Google book search and it states his name does not appear. If you would like to expand the coverage of Pluto's status, be my guest, you've been around long enough to know about Wikipedia:Other stuff exists.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Not a very good search as Tyson wrote The Pluto Files: The Rise and Fall of America's Favorite Planet. Unlike the current subject, Tyson’s work in this area was covered by major papers and networks. Otherstuff doesn’t apply as we are talking about two parts of the same article and their relative importance. Objective3000 (talk) 17:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree, this was barely touched by Reliable Sources (so far). It doesn't warrant an entire section-size explanation. It can probably be two or maybe three sentences if we give a general statement of the accusation, an his acknowledgement. Note: Tyson has indicated he's planning a bigger statement with an apology.... it's very possible that this will trigger significantly more news coverage. More coverage would warrant more detail. Alsee (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we limit the discussion here to proposed edits and keep the question of "should this even be included at all" to other talk page sections? I get that there are still numerous editors who oppose inclusion of this material, but there are also, presumably, numerous editors who, like me, find the question of inclusion or exclusion easier to decide if we can see what would be included. Bonewah (talk) 17:19, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Rereading this section i see that editors are objecting to the length of quotes, not their inclusion per se. Bonewah (talk) 17:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the complete Bush quote should be included. This is the Tyson bio, not the Bush bio. Removing that, and simply referencing it would reduce the wording materially.

A reminder that the RfC upthread is on the issue of inclusion or not, please weigh in there is you want to support or oppose inclusion (and havent already) This section is for the crafting of the wording that neutrally summarizes the incident, should it be concluded that it deserves inclusion.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

New proposal

The initial proposal by collect is ridiculously excessive. Here's my proposal::

“ In some of his lectures Tyson stated that, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, then-President George W. Bush said, "Our God is the God who named the stars."[59] After being questioned on the accuracy of the quote[1] Tyson commented in his Facebook profile "I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote. Perhaps that's a measure of how upset I was in both cases."[Tyson's FB post] ”

[1]: the most reliable source available for this, ie: no thefederalist.com.

Anything else would be WP:UNDUE. I'm not even sure it should be mentioned at all given that no major media outlets picked up on this in spite of some right-wing media's efforts to make this an issue. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 18:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Much better. Objective3000 (talk) 18:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Managing to imply Tyson was absolutely correct in what he said the quote was about (an attack on Muslims), that the quote was correctly worded with only the event date being wrong, , and failing to note that the actual quote is from Isaiah? What an interesting view. Collect (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(EC)I see at least two problems here. One, the proposed edit does not mention that the other incident was the shuttle explosion, so the line "I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote." is cryptic. Two, the proposed edit makes no mention of the critic's claim that Tyson wrongly portrayed GWB as anti-Muslim, the ""distinguish we from they (Muslims)" part. Bonewah (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Collect and Bonewah the proposal is in line with the sources. Your own thoughts on what Tyson omitted or how he should've responded or the "implications" of what he commented are almost as irrelevant as the whole "incident" itself. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 18:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

IOW you aver that sources state Tyson did not in any way misquote Bush or draw wrong inferences from what Bush actually said, only that he got the dates wrong. Right? Really? Collect (talk) 18:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

No. You need other words? regards. Gaba ^(talk) 19:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(EC)Objective3000IM not commenting on how Tyson should have responded or the implications (with or without the ""), im only commenting on the proposed edit. Again the problem is that the proposed edit fails to mention Tyson's critics main complaint, that Tyson incorrectly portrayed GWB as anti-Muslim using a quote that GWB never actually said. Bonewah (talk) 19:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Only GWB did make other statements, in the same time period, in the same vein, that would suggest just that. Rationale for the Iraq War. Now, I don't believe GWB is anti-Muslim. But, it's hard to take this as slanderous (as stated in the original proposal) when GWB has, in fact, made like statements. Objective3000 (talk) 19:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What does the Rationale for the Iraq War article have to do with this? Did Tyson cite something from that article? Did any of his critics? Not that im aware. Again, the core argument that his critics made is that Tyson wrongly portrayed GWB as anti-muslim using a quote that GWB never actually said. The fact that GWB has said some things that you, personally, think are in the same vein is totally irrelevant. Bonewah (talk) 19:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It is relevant because the reason some sources claim this is important is because, in their words, it is "a vicious, gratuitous slander". But, how can it be if GWB did make statements along the same lines? Objective3000 (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Im not going down that WP:OR path. Its not our job to refute what some of Tyson's critics believe with statements that you believe are "along the same lines". Bonewah (talk) 20:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I linked to a WP article. This is hardly WP:OR. Keep in mind the lack of RS in any of this. Objective3000 (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

My apologies. Your comments did not apply to me. Mystic55 (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

My proposal

My proposal is to just delete the entire thing. It's not important enough to warrant inclusion and we're not a not a news site. It barely registers a blip in reliable sources. This is not the way to write an encyclopedia article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

How about,"Tyson admitting to accidentally misquoting Bush about the naming of stars after an anonymous conservative wikipedia editor drummed up support on several conservative news sites. It is believed this is an attempt to discredit him by AGW Denial advocates such as the Heartland Institute due to comments he made on the critically acclaimed show Cosmos." Mystic55 (talk) 19:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Hasnt there been enough acrimony on this subject already? Yes, we get it, you both strongly oppose any inclusion of this material. Do you have to flood the talk page with snark to prove that? Bonewah (talk) 19:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It isn't snark. This is the beginning of an obvious process to discredit Tyson as denoted on a liberal site, making it a notable issue. The attempt to sway conservative commentators has, in fact, made the attempt to sway them and discredit Tyson notable and worthy of inclusion, and failure to do so takes the context of the addition of the criticism OUT of context. It is noteworthy because the commentator made it so. Mystic55 (talk) 19:15, 29 September 2014

Ok, if you are being serious, then i totally oppose your proposed edits as obviously and laughably POV pushing as well as WP:OR. Bonewah (talk) 19:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you please clarify how including mention that a 'misquote' that was included in the article with a POV agenda isn't actually WP:NOTABLE if not more notable than the misquote? Mystic55 (talk) 19:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I dont understand what you are asking. Bonewah (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I am asking that if the quote is included, the reason WHY the quote matters be included as well because it is more noteworthy as denoted by reliable sources. Mystic55 (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If you have a proposed edit or change to one of the given proposals, feel free to put it out. Bonewah (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I have already thrown my weight behind the proposal mentioned below which includes the controversy and brujajah on conservative websites with regards to the quote. Anyone who cares about the source will then understand its inclusion upon reading the paragraph. Mystic55 (talk) 20:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree this shouldn't even be mentioned given the little to no relevance it had in reliable media but I guess the outcome of the current RfC will decide that. The extent and content of what gets included, in the case the RfC turns out is should be included at all, is another issue altogether. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 19:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Contextual Counter-proposal

I believe that including the context is important to indicate the notable nature of the event. I suggest:

In June 2008, during prepared remarks, Tyson used an anecdote about then-President Bush to illustrate what Tyson considered widespread scientific illiteracy. In his presentation, which included slides and photos, Tyson attributed the following quote to Bush - "Our God is the God who named the stars" - and stated that the quote had been made in the context of the 9/11 attacks and had been used by Bush to distinguish between Christians and Muslims. Tyson held that this quote was an example of scientific illiteracy due to the large contributions of Arabs to astronomy, particularly highlighting the number of stars with Arabic names.

In 2014, a conservative website published an article alleging several false or attributed statements by Tyson, including the Bush quote above, which could not be independently sourced. The website suggested instead that a passage from a 2003 speech by Bush in the wake of the Colombia disaster had been mis-contextualized by Tyson. Tyson initially insisted that the quote was accurate in that the original speech referred to differences between Muslims and Christians, and was in the immediate wake of 9/11. Controversy over the provenance of the quote and its potential reflection on Tyson's integrity garnered even more attention. Eventually Tyson acknowledge that the 2003 speech was the likely source.

Edited to put 2nd para in italics And obviously references will have to be added before posting. end edit.

I realize this is wordy, but it does have the advantage of being complete and (IMO) non-inflammatory.Kerani (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree that context is important here. Im not sure i agree with the line "Controversy over the provenance of the quote and its potential reflection on Tyson's integrity garnered even more attention. " Otherwise, your proposed edits are pretty good. Bonewah (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(EC)Also, i think the line "published an article alleging several false or attributed statements by Tyson" should say mis-attributed. In the next sentence, i think you should add a "they claimed" or something before "which could not be independently sourced" to make it clear that the sourcing question wasnt totally resolved. That part is a bit mooted in light of Tyson's acknowledgement, i think. Bonewah (talk) 20:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the context of why the quote is included in the article, or why any one cares about the 'misquote' is more notable than the misquote itself.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/28/1332921/-The-Al-Gorification-of-Neil-deGrasse-Tyson

http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/29/its-not-the-crime-its-the-cover-up/

http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/16/another-day-another-quote-fabricated-by-neil-degrasse-tyson/

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/09/03/daily-caller-defends-racist-transphobic-writer/200625

http://www.christianpost.com/news/why-is-wikipedia-removing-references-to-neil-degrasse-tyson-misquoting-george-w-bush-127037/

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/26/the-federalist-targeted-for-wikipedia-deletion-after-criticizing-neil-degrasse-tyson/

https://theweek.com/article/index/268705/earth-to-climate-change-deniers-neil-degrasse-tysons-errors-wont-help-you

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/nerd-throwdown-neil-degrasse-tyson-vs-peter-thiel_806088.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-science-as-tribe/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/cosmically-dishonest_805319.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/24/what-makes-an-accusation-wiki-worthy/

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/09/whipping-boys-in-america/

http://www.inquisitr.com/1505043/americans-dont-trust-scientists-new-research-claims/

This is a repeated pattern, not merely a single article by the federalist.

I think the two paragraphs are good.Mystic55 (talk) 20:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Anything over two sentences is WP:UNDUE. You should trim your proposal to about 25% of what it currently is. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 20:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaba, how did you come to the "two sentences" limit, rather than one or three? It's not clear to me that an event that spans over a decade can automatically be summed up in two lines - at least not while being fair to the people involved. Kerani (talk) 20:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Kerani Using my better judgement given the sources available as we do usually when editing WP? Not sure what you expected here. "An event that spans over a decade"? The "event" is hardly an "event" at all to begin with and in any case it spans less than two weeks at most. Gaba ^(talk) 20:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, got it - your opinion, not a WP guideline. Tracking now. And (to be sure I understand you completely) your opinion is that this is just about the identification of the misquote, not about how Tyson came to make such an error - and repeat it multiple times - beginning in 2003 (or possibly 2001, when Tyson said he remembers hearing the quote).Kerani (talk) 20:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If you can quote me a policy that states the precise number of sentences a given statement should have in WP according to given sources, I'll give you the award for WP's most knowledgeable editor in the history of the universe. Of course I used my better judgement according to the sources available (ie: "my opinion" to you) that's what we do around here.

And just so you understand me: if you have WP:RSs commenting on "how Tyson came to make such an error" we can discuss its inclusion. Otherwise that is indeed your opinion. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 21:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

And failure to include when the incident became significant is also POV by default. It is significant because conservatives made it so. Mystic55 (talk) 20:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Unless this is covered on reliable sources (other than right-wing partisan sources or counter arguments in left-wing sites), it should be left out of the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As in IMMEDIATELY removed, despite being added to a protected article before consensus. If it must be included then ALL the data should be included. Mystic55 (talk) 20:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to try to reach consensus through edits, I don't have a problem with changing it. If you think that "right-wing partisan sources" or "left-wing sites" cannot be reliable sources then I suggest you reread wp:biased "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." So while the Federalist may be too new to be considered a reliable source there are others such as The Weekly Standard, National Review, The Christian Post, The Daily Caller. And no, it should not be "IMMEDIATLY removed" without consensus to do so, if you would like to add "ALL the data" I would like to see that.--Obsidi (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you accurately talked about the incident, but while I agree this needs to be included, I also think you might be putting a bit too much context that is not needed. Lets start with "during prepared remarks", who cares? why is that relevant? Just delete it. The second sentence can almost be eliminated, I don't see it as necessary to explain what occurred. The fact that it was a presentation "which included slides and photos," seems irrelevant and can be removed. The last sentence of the first paragraph also seems unnecessary. The second to last sentence of the second paragraph also seems unnecessary. If you cut all these parts out, I think you will get a lot closer to the proper weight as well, I do believe it should be included but it doesn't have to take up a lot of space. --Obsidi (talk) 21:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Kerani's proposed text looks fine. Its not too long, summarizes the material well and is very neutral in its wording. WeldNeck (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Please find consensus for inclusion. Continuing to reboot a discussion over and over again because you can't find consensus for inclusion is not acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Its clear the consensus is for inclusion . 21:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

@Viriditas:(3ec)Please note the repeated requests to make that opinion known at the RfC not here, which is discussion of the wording appropriate contingent on a decision for inclusion. --S Philbrick(Talk) 21:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Support. Failure to include context of the inclusion of the quote in the article is POV. Also, there is no consensus on inclusion of the quote in the above RtC. Mystic55 (talk) 21:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(The RFC is above, not here) - Cwobeel (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

what context is that ... pray tell. WeldNeck (talk) 21:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I am opposed to including the quote at all. If we're starting ANOTHER rtc on this thing here, I support the language on this proposal. Mystic55 (talk) 21:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Support This or some similar version thereof. Viriditas What process do you think is going on? He is trying to find consensus. You object, great. Your viewpoint will be taken into account when consensus is determined. The fact that you (or others) object does not mean that the process being used to determine consensus is not being followed. Cwobeel In addition to determining if there should be a mention, we need to determine what that mention would be. This section is appropriate for the second purpose.Gaijin42 (talk) 4:56 pm, Today (UTC−5)

• Comment Some of us are getting a bit tired of pretending that this is not what it is. An extremist site, that even the conservatives here won’t call a RS, doesn’t like Tyson. They have told us why in no uncertain terms. He is an atheist, and spreads the doctrines of evolution and climate change. Please consider that the NYTimes, LATimes, WaPo, ChicagoTrib, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc have completely ignored this “story”. As has the non-U.S. press. Such long-lived organizations with hundreds of awards know what is newsworthy; which is why WP depends on them and they don’t depend on WP. It appears that WP may fold to pressure from these sites. And that is a shame – because it is an abdication of WP’s responsibility as the most read encyclopedia in the world. Just my opinion and explanation of why some of us are having difficulty with ignoring the elephant. Objective3000 (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Such long-lived organizations with hundreds of awards know what is newsworthy Isn't that 'arguing from authority'? Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards_extramarital_affair Kerani (talk) 22:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Well said. Let them froth at the mouth as much as they want, we should abide by Wikipedia policies and the best practices embodied in them. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we let them froth at the mouth without letting them keep readding the totally out of context LIE that the misquote isn't being used for character slander in direct violation to WP: BLP? Can we PLEASE reprotect the site? Mystic55 (talk) 22:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Option Summary

I've tried to summarize some of the options.

Please recall that if you think nothing at all should be included, you should weigh in at the RfC

In some cases, I made some stylistic edits (removing indentation which doesn't work inside a table). If I messed something up, it was not intentional, please feel free to correct it.

Some included refs, some did not, if we gravitate toward one of the options without refs, we should add them.

One reservation I have with listing these in a table form is that invites a straw poll; I do not think we are quite ready for that, and urge consideration and discussion of the options. Then we can either take an up and down straw poll, or eliminate some of the least attractive options and vote on the remainder.

I deliberately left some blank options in case someone wants to add another.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Any inclusion of any proposal which does not include the reference of the word conservative does include the quote is POV by omission. Mystic55 (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As a point of fact, the 2003 speech in question was about the Columbia shuttle disaster, not Challenger. Several of the proposals have that switched. More generally, I'd suggest staying away from warring quotes as much as possible. Finally, I don't think proposal 4 was made seriously - that might be an easy one to get out of the way.Kerani (talk) 22:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Existing	Tyson has claimed that, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, then-President George W. Bush said, "Our God is the God who named the stars," in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)". Tom Jackson of the Tampa Tribune called it "... a vicious, gratuitous slander."
Proposal 1	On September 16th, 2014 the website The Federalist accused Neil Tyson of quoting President George W. Bush out of context. Neil Tyson had claimed that within a week of the 9/11 terrorist attack, that President Bush in an attempt to distance Muslim fundamentalists from Christians loosely quoted Genesis when he said “Our God is the God who named the stars.” Neil Tyson has confirmed that he was referring to President Bush’s February 2003 speech on the space shuttle challenger’s explosion Columbia and that he "transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote." In that speech President Bush quotes not Genesis but Isaiah when he said “He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name." President Bush then says, “The same Creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today.” This speech was on February 1st, 2003, not within a week of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and said nothing about Muslims.
Proposal 2	In speeches, Tyson cited George W. Bush as saying after 9/11 "Our God is the God who named the stars" in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)". Columnists and bloggers noted that Tyson misquoted Bush, and that the correct quote was from the memorial for the seven Columbia astronauts, and that the full context did not refer to Muslims at all, but was "In the skies today we saw destruction and tragedy. Yet farther than we can see, there is comfort and hope. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'Lift your eyes and look to the heavens. Who created all these? He who brings out the starry hosts one by one and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.' The same creator who names the stars also knows the names of the seven souls we mourn today." Tyson on Sep 26, 2014, defended his use of the quotation on Facebook: "I have explicit memory of those words being spoken by the President. I reacted on the spot, making note for possible later reference in my public discourse. Odd that nobody seems to be able to find the quote anywhere -- surely every word publicly uttered by a President gets logged." and then on Sep 27 he emended his position stating "Good to see that the Bush quote was found. Thanks to all who did the searching. I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote."
Proposal 3	In some of his lectures Tyson stated that, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, then-President George W. Bush said, "Our God is the God who named the stars."[59] After being questioned on the accuracy of the quote[1] Tyson commented in his Facebook profile "I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote. Perhaps that's a measure of how upset I was in both cases."[Tyson's FB post]}} ::[1]: the most reliable source available for this, ie: no thefederalist.com.
Proposal 4	Tyson admitting to accidentally misquoting Bush about the naming of stars after an anonymous conservative wikipedia editor drummed up support on several conservative news sites. It is believed this is an attempt to discredit him by AGW Denial advocates such as the Heartland Institute due to comments he made on the critically acclaimed show Cosmos.
Proposal 5	In June 2008, during prepared remarks, Tyson used an anecdote about then-President Bush to illustrate what Tyson considered widespread scientific illiteracy. In his presentation, which included slides and photos, Tyson attributed the following quote to Bush - "Our God is the God who named the stars" - and stated that the quote had been made in the context of the 9/11 attacks and had been used by Bush to distinguish between Christians and Muslims. Tyson held that this quote was an example of scientific illiteracy due to the large contributions of Arabs to astronomy, particularly highlighting the number of stars with Arabic names. In 2014, a conservative website published an article alleging several false or mis-attributed statements by Tyson, including the Bush quote above, which could not be independently sourced. The website suggested instead that a passage from a 2003 speech by Bush in the wake of the Colombia disaster had been mis-contextualized by Tyson. Tyson initially insisted that the quote was accurate in that the original speech referred to differences between Muslims and Christians, and was in the immediate wake of 9/11. Controversy over the provenance of the quote and its potential reflection on Tyson's integrity garnered even more attention. Eventually Tyson acknowledged that the 2003 speech was the likely source.
Proposal 6	In speeches, Tyson cited George W. Bush as saying after 9/11 "Our God is the God who named the stars" in order to "distinguish we from they (Muslims)". Columnists and bloggers noted that Tyson misquoted Bush, and that the correct quote was from the memorial for the seven Columbia astronauts, and that the full context did not refer to Muslims at all. Tyson stated "Good to see that the Bush quote was found. Thanks to all who did the searching. I transposed one disaster with another (both occurring within 18 months of one another) in my assigning his quote."
Proposal 7	In September 2014 a blogger noted that Tyson misquoted George W. Bush on several occasions. Tyson later admitted the mistake.
Proposal 8	Not a damn thing per the blatantly obvious WP:UNDUE and a WP:CLUEBAT to everyone.
Proposal 9	Following accusations that Tyson had fabricated a quote by former president George W Bush, (cite the federalist, maybe one or two other sources), Tyson said in part "And I here publicly apologize to the President for casting his quote in the context of contrasting religions rather than as a poetic reference to the lost souls of Columbia. I have no excuse for this, other than both events-- so close to one another -- upset me greatly." (cite https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/partial-anatomy-of-my-public-talks/10152360009440869)
Proposal 9	Following accusations from a politically conservative blogger that Tyson had fabricated a quote by former president George W Bush, (cite the federalist, maybe one or two other sources), Tyson said in part "And I here publicly apologize to the President for casting his quote in the context of contrasting religions rather than as a poetic reference to the lost souls of Columbia. I have no excuse for this, other than both events-- so close to one another -- upset me greatly." (cite https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/partial-anatomy-of-my-public-talks/10152360009440869)
Proposal 10

References

Good work, but useless I am afraid. In BLPs we err on the side of exclusion when there is no consensus for inclusion. See WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE - Cwobeel (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We also don't just remove from BLPs content because a few people disagree with what is said without support from other WP:RS, also see WP:WELLKNOWN "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article" --Obsidi (talk) 22:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

No media outlet other than a few extreme conservative/partisan sources have reported this brouhaha, so valid BLP concerns apply. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Except for the non-partisan RS refs of course, and the liberal/progressive refs, and the newspapers. All found in the discussions above. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cwobeel: Your removal was not a good faith removal. A good faith removal is when you might be the first to see a problematic addition, or find an older one on a low-traffic page. To remove material that has been discussed in depth over the last week by many, many editors is not a good faith removal, but disruptive. Please revert. Please be aware that this page is subject to Discretionary sanctions. I am trying hard to have a reasonable discussion about the inclusion and the wording if included. You are disrupting.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Revised: 7,8,3,6. #7 needs to replace "blogger" with "website". It doesn't identify as a blog, and I don't think we have sourcing for calling it that. If 3 I suggest dropping the last sentence "Perhaps that's a measure of how upset I was in both cases", and revise the "After being questioned on the accuracy of the quote[1]" after figuring out which source to use. Alsee (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• WP:UNDUE coverage at any length. this is a fart in a hurricane and the only people who smell it have their noses stuffed too far up their asses for anyone's good. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:25, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You know, if you approach an article talk page that is already contentious, and the most you can add is invective, perhaps its better if you dont comment at all. Bonewah (talk) 00:51, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

its only "already contentious" because people have their heads up their asses. the air is much fresher out here out of looney land. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support prop 7 It doesn’t assume ulterior motives. It doesn’t cave to extremist sites. It includes mention of the incident. It doesn’t use non-RS sources. It is balanced in size in relation to his awards, best-selling books, obvious stature, etc. It is accurate. Most importantly, It doesn’t violate BLP. It is the epitome of what WP policies guide us to include. I might consider changing my vote to include if this exact statement was used. Objective3000 (talk) 00:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Well if i had to pick, id go with Number 6. Fairly concise and neutral. The WP:UNDUE crowd does have a point, even if they cant resist making it at every opportunity, wether we needed reminding or not. Bonewah (talk) 00:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• I would support any of 1,2,5, or 6. (I was the author of #1). #3, fails to talk about how the quote was put in the context of talking about Muslims even though it had nothing to do with that. #4 is POV pushing. #7 says almost nothing about what actually occurred that I think are important. and #8 is not appropriate with multiple WP:RS saying the event is important and none saying it isn't.--Obsidi (talk) 01:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Given the lack of coverage in mainstream publications, prop 8 would seem to be in keeping with Wiki policies. Of course, if this two-week old brouhaha receives wider coverage we would need to re-evaluate. Props 6 & 7 are reasonable. 7 is about as much space as it merits - readers can follow the links to read more detail. Prop 6 is longer than I feel necessary, but I could live with that. The others are too "inside baseball" for a general interest encyclopedia.

So, favor 8, can live with 6 or 7, disagree with the others. Really, the best course of action is to let the RFC run its course at which point it should be a lot more obvious just how much weight to give the matter in the article. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 13:12, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Proposal 8 Grossly WP:UNDUE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Proposal 6 It is the most neutral and smallest version that provides all the facts needed.--97.65.104.162 (talk) 01:51, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Proposal 8 It's such a shame to not include something which is true and interesting. At least mention the controversy. Part of what I love about Wikipedia are all the inane details that people find about obscure topics (not that I'm admitting that this is an inane detail or an obscure topic). I haven't edited Wikipedia for years so feel free to ignore me, I do love reading it! I won't cite any rules, apart from WP:IGNORE. Please include it, please. Apart from anything else, I wouldn't want to see the principle applied consistently to other pages. American editors should also bear in mind that domestic US political considerations mean nothing to those outside of the US. Cheers Chemical Ace (talk) 08:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

on another note, your desired reading does not seem well suited to being satisfied in an encyclopedia. i would suggest something like people.com or snopes.com rather than wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

so we should include trivia that is only of interest to US political hacks? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:03, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This is not a political issue. This is a he made up a quote to make someone else look stupid issue and repeatedly said that quote, and has only now kind of appologized. Arzel (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

its completely a political issue - the person "being mocked" is a political figure and the people upset about the "mocking" are political hacks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:25, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The Week wrote extensively about it and they are a UK news magazine. Kelly ^hi! 13:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I've seen accusations of Tyson being "Swiftboated" by the right. What ever that means and whether or not it is true is irrelevant. The fact that some may consider it (wrongly) a victory for Creationism or a blow to climate change is also irrelevant. That's what I meant. Sorry it's pretty unclear in the original statement. If it means Republicans get elected for the next million years you should still include it. Stop thinking about smug Christians and just include it, because it happens to be true. Chemical Ace (talk) 14:01, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Wrong Approach this is really the wrong approach to this. Until the RfC is completed it is mostly pointless to have a vote like this, plus it is not put into an RfC format. Arzel (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Readd Protected Status

People are claiming consensus where none exists and there are still organized canvasing efforts on conservative sites to influence this article. Can we please reprotect? Mystic55 (talk) 21:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact that people outside of WP are canvasing doesn't change what the WP article should be. WP rules only apply to people on WP. --Obsidi (talk) 23:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Note the removal of any attempt to put this organized character attack by conservatives, conservative websites drafted by canvasing. The cited source CLEARLY cites that it does indeed refer to this wikipedia page not just the deletion of the Federalist website from wikipedia. There is organized propoganda campaign being initiated against wikipedia and the subject of this article in direct violation of WP: BLP. Can we PLEASE protect this article? I'd revert this slander called "a slander" but have already been warned re: 3R. Mystic55 (talk) 22:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you can explain what part of it you think "CLEARLY cites" to this page and not the federalist.com RfD? This is how it starts: "The Wikipedia page for the conservative online publication “The Federalist” was targeted for deletion following the site’s critical coverage of progressive scientist Neil deGrasse Tyson."[60] --Obsidi (talk) 22:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Also saying the cited source doesn't say what it does when it clearly DOES say it is also a direct violation of WP: Good Faith. Mystic55 (talk) 22:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Deleted until consensus is found for inclusion

Per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE (highlight is mine) : When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first - Cwobeel (talk) 22:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What precisely is your WP:BLP related objection? Not just any objection but a "BLP objections"? Just claiming WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE without stating what the exact BLP related issue is, is not enough. That exception is there so if there are WP:LIBEL or other BLP related issues that the libelous/unsourced statements are not left up while people debate. --Obsidi (talk)

Of course the initial deletion was because there was no RS ref that were supportive for inclusion. Now we have both RS and the subject of the BLP admitting the error(s). So the information is now WP:V verified and has been significantly changed by the interim developments. Thus invoking WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE is mooted. The material for inclusion is different and ref'd. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The BLP objection is well presented in the oppose comments on the RFC. You can read them there. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This is flat out false. Are you simply throwing stuff at the wall, hoping some will stick, or is the situation worse? Yes, several editors have opposed the inclusion based upon a number of issues.

The first one to mention BLP: two things have changed since my original vote: the article has been edited to comply with BLP,

Second one: I don't think there's anything sad about being cautious when BLPs are involved I agree, we should be cautious, but the editor does not assert a blatant BLP violation, simply notes that this is an article about a living person.

Next one: WP:BLP says to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources". I agree, but it doesn't say there is a BLP violation deserving removal.

Next: I don't see how this meets the tough sourcing requirements set forth by BLP This comes close to arguing for a removal on BLP grounds, but if that editor saw one, they could have removed rather than adding to an RfC

Next: It is WP:UNDUE to accuse someone of being a “serial fabulist” based on such weak evidence in a WP:BLP.

Moot as “serial fabulist” is not in the article.

Next: Some have been basing their conclusions on their own personal interpretations of the incident, which falls afoul of WP:BLP and standard policies.

Moot, as no such statements are in any of the options, or in the most recent version

Next: That being said any content should be neutrally worded, and well referenced per BLP I agree, this is a support, so clearly not an argument for removal on BLP grounds.

Over 50 editors have weighed in. Only seven even mentioned "BLP", not a single one said this qualifies for immediate removal under BLP grounds. At best, a couple might make that arguments if asked, but if 50 editors are asked, and almost all opine on other grounds, your case is thin gruel.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Also from BLP and BLPREQUESTRESTORE: To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. . Where are the high-quality reliable sources? A blog post by a conservative contributor in the Tampa Tribune? The Federalist.com? The Daily Caller? If and when the "story" is picked up by high quality sources, we can revisit this. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

(3ec)That was an improper deletion. Had there been legitimate BLP concerns, given the large number of editors who are watching, it would have been removed long ago if it was a legitimate BLP issue. The RfC on the weight issue would have been SNOW closed long ago. Thus, I do not accept that it is a good faith removal. I think it is disruptive, you ought to self-revert and apologize. There are good faith debates on the value of some proposed references, there is a good faith debate on the weight this incident deserves, but to make a removal on BLP grounds evinces astoundingly bad judgement.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We should err on the side of caution on BLPs. These are the sources:

• The Volokh Conspiracy blog
• The Federalist (2 posts)
• Examiner.com (3 posts)
• Patheos blog
• Meidaite
• Tiwtchy
• FrontPage Magazine
• PJ media

Are these high-quality sources as required by WP:BLP? I don't think so, thus my removal of the material. Also, per BLP we need consensus to keep the material and the RFC shows that there is no such consensus. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I take it you are asserting that the claim Tyson misquoted Bush in Tyson's speeches is a "contentious claim"? I would suggest the fact that Tyson has stated that he did so basically makes this a "d'oh" moment in the Wikipedia history of contentious claims. Contentious claims supported by the person in question cease to be a problem AFAICT. You might possibly have had a point of some sort until Tyson basically took that argument away by himself. Collect (talk) 23:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I will keep this diff, next time you argue to the contrary on politician articles (you know what I am talking about). - Cwobeel (talk) 00:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I created a table of resources and you omitted some. If you are not even going to bother paying attention to the Talk page, I request that you refrain from disrupting. You are making false statements, and it is incomprehensible that you do not know this.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

These are by no means high-quality sources. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:16, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The user hasn't disrupted anything. There is no support for inclusion at this time, and the repeated rebooting of every discussion after consensus was not found in order to create a new consensus is the real disruption here. Viriditas (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support deletion. These are not reliable sources for a BLP, especially for controversial, POV-driven polemics against the subject. Viriditas (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't think WP:SELFSOURCE is reliable enough for a BLP? --Obsidi (talk) 23:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please read and understand WP:UNDUE, as this is one of the greatest examples of undue weight I can imagine. Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

There are multiple WP:RS which have commented on the importance of this (see resources for the list). I don't think any reliable sources have said it isn't important (although maybe I missed one). Now I proposed something that was as small as I could get and include the context for the reader to understand what happened, if you got a smaller way of explaining what occurred in context please propose it. --Obsidi (talk) 23:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What the heck? Did we just decide to dump discussion and consensus-building and go straight back to edit-warring? Why was there a dump-restore-revision without waiting for the on-going discussion of what to say to at least hit 24 hours?Kerani (talk) 23:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You may not support inclusion, but don't conflate your personal opinion with a consensus. I haven't said the editor isn't permitted to have an opinion, but removal of material while under active discussion is disruptive. What justification is there for making a list of sources, and omitting ones that have been discussed multiple times? And it looks like you are making the same assumption. Are you seriously proposing deletion without reading the talk page? I get that newbies might do that, you have no such excuse.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF and cool the rhetoric a tad if you could. My argument stands, the burden to provide high-quality sources is on those that want to restore the material. Find these sources and I will myself restore the material. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I have provided a two sentence summary of this silly affair. Even this is more than necessary and could be reduced to one sentence. --Shabidoo | Talk 00:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the best course of action is to remove any mention of this affair until such time as we get something like a consensus. Numerous editors have expressed concern over the inclusion of this material, and while i mostly disagree with them, the best move is to simply wait until we have a consensus. If we absolutely cannot form a consensus, we can deal with it then. I dont believe we are there yet. Bonewah (talk) 00:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Totally agreed. --Shabidoo | Talk 08:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Where to place information about the Bush quote

There was a point made by the most recent person who reverted, User:DreamGuy, that I am not sure we have consensus upon, and I wanted to talk about it. Where would be the best place to put this information about the Bush quote? Now I understand some people think that there are problems with WP:Weight in including anything at all, this section isn't to discuss that. My question is, assuming we include something, where should it be placed? User:DreamGuy makes a good point that this isn't really his political views (although I would suggest it is related to politics). I mainly kept it there as that is where it was before. Is there a better place for it? Or do we need a new section (and if so what should we call it)?

--Obsidi (talk) 00:33, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Nowhere. There is no consensus for inclusion. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you see where I said "this section isn't to discuss that"? There are other sections talking about the WP:Weight of including anything. --Obsidi (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Despite specifically asking that we refrain from discussing inclusion in this section, the first response is one reminding us that cwobeel opposes inclusion of this material. You arent helping your case here, all you are doing is showing that you are not interested in a good faith discussion. Bonewah (talk) 00:45, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

IMO the most generous take is that it is relevant to Tyson's political views. Assigning it to a (new) section of allegations of impropriety and research fraud might be most accurate, but that would be both difficult and fraught with negative repercussions. Kerani (talk) 00:45, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you aware of manufactured controversies. If you weren't this is a good example of one. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware. That 'manufactured' is being used to describe the identification of the mis-attribution, and not the attribution itself, is somewhat telling. Any researcher who had been found to have been repeatedly misrepresenting a source in that fashion would have immediately corrected it, or else been dismissed as a reliable scientist.Kerani (talk) 01:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with kerani about where to potentially put this info if it is decided that it should be included. Bonewah (talk) 01:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not a "manufactured controversy", it's criticism of exactly the same type Wikipedia routinely includes in biographies of conservatives. Andreas JN466 07:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The attack on Tyson by multiple right-wing sources is a manufactured controversy, and it's what they do best. Tyson hasn't changed his position on anything, and the quotes he used were used accurately even if he got the place and time of the original quote wrong. As for what is routinely included in conservative biographies, I will say that 1) that's not true, and 2) this isn't a biography of a liberal. This is a biography of a person who is known for his work as a science communicator. Trying to draw some kind of analogy here is nonsensical. Jayen, I like your content work, and I often agree with your opinion pieces offwiki, but I think you are totally wrong on this one. I suspect it's because you aren't familiar with what Heartland & Co. do and how they operate in the US. This may be a simple case where your unfamiliarity with American politics is the problem. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

the quotes he used were used accurately Claims like this completely sink any hope of demonstrating a grasp on the facts of this particular case and of proper sourcing of material. The Bush quote that Tyson used was mis-attributed in that it was not sourced to a location where it could be found by anyone else - it was said to have come from a speech shortly after 9/11 and did not, it was said to have come from a passage differentiating Muslims from Christians and it did not. The quote was furthermore not accurately linked to the original reference which was clearly noted in the Columbia speech. Most significantly, the Bush quote Tyson referenced was selected to support his contention that there was widespread scientific illiteracy, and the quote did not support that assertion. Only by being used in a false/inaccurate manner could the quote be used to support that assertion. That Tyson is a noted science communicator is part of what makes this so noteable - which completely undermines the idea that this is "manufactured" or that Tyson's misuse of that quote was in any way defensible. Stop saying that either is correct.Kerani (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you tell us what his political views are, and why you believe they are political and relevant? Do you consider evolution and climate change views held by a scientist political views? Objective3000 (talk) 01:25, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Off topic discussion of Neil Tyson's other political views

Objective3k, AFAIK he is politically liberal on the US scale. The political views of a researcher are important in order to understand the bias that they bring to a study or paper. The political views of a public speaker who advocates on public policy & spending are of far greater relevance. I consider views on evolution to be political when they are held by non-life science scientists, and views on climate change to be political when held by non-meteorologists. Last I heard, NdGT's area of expertise was in extra-terran subjects, so his views on evolution and climate change would not be authoritarian. AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT HIS FREAKING VIEWS ON CLIMATE CHANGE. It's not part of the topic under discussion. I consider bringing it up to be a red herring, distracting, and completely non-productive to the issue at hand.Kerani (talk) 01:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Sadly, climate change and evolution have a political component to them, even if you feel they shouldnt. In any event, i think 'political views' is the 'default' choice, as in, i cant think of a better place. Any suggestions? Bonewah (talk) 01:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC) @Kerani:, you may not want to talk about climate change, but why do you think this website and the right-wing media jumped into the story? Any reasons you may think? Elephant in the room, IMO. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:20, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Cwobeel - I'm going to AGF and think that it has something to do with NdGT jacking up a quote in a remarkably careless manner, and in the process attributing malice and scientific incompetence to a conservative political figure. Whether or not one agrees that Bush was malicious towards Muslims or a moron or a purple man from Mars, the evidence shows that the quote Tyson chose did not support those claims, and should never have been used for that purpose. I think that your refusal to grapple with the specific topic at hand, continuing to revert to allegations of bad faith and dismissal of opposing views suggests significant weakness in your position.Kerani (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC) You are missing my point. Did Tyson screwed up with that quote? Surely he did. My point is this is only a "story" because the right-wing media despises Tyson, for many reasons. Have you read by any chance the book The Republican Noise Machine? I am reading it now, highly recommended. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Your appeals for non-partisan RS are badly damaged by this reference to a partisan source. And again, you're sidestepping the issue under consideration - the inclusion (or not) of substantiated mis-attribution of sources by a noted science commentator. Please stick to the topic and quit trying to disrupt the conversation.Kerani (talk) 14:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC) False, I and I suggest you don't read inflammatory books when trying to edit with AGF in mind. Arzel (talk) 03:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Inflammatory? I would say eyeopener instead. Reading does one good. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Partisan Shrill is hardly reading at all, and certainly does not expand one's mind. I suggest 1984, the comparison is quite illuminating. Arzel (talk) 13:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC) How do you know it is "partisan shrill" if you have not read the book? (BTW, the author was a right-wing journalist and he is reporting on his book amazing facts about this subject from first-hand experience.) Books open minds, my friend. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Whether or not a "Republican Noise Machine" is responsible for starting this controversy, fact of the matter is, it IS a controversy, as evidenced by Tyson addressing it. Despite the protestations in this talk page, this issue IS gaining traction with the public and IS being discussed. Of course, not in the NY Times or Time Magazine but average people interested in Tyson and in science ARE talking about this. It seems to me Tyson knows that and is why he felt the need to address it. The controversy is, in fact, real and should be addressed, no matter WHY it came to be. Should reliable sources come forth and describe the functioning of this "Noise Machine" in this issue, by all means, let's put it in the article. But putting our virtual fingers in our virtual ears and going "La la la la... I can't hear you!" is not the solution, because readers of the encylopedia are not so willing to play such games and will naturally wonder why we are. Marteau (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Marteau, we fully well know how you see the opinions of editors who differ from yours. They are "bizarre" or a "game" or "sticking their fingers into their ears going bla bla bla" or as SPhil called it "desperately trying for a way to keep this incident out of the article". The other editors simply disagree that this controversy is worth taking seriously (a manufactured controversy in a fringe part of the blogosphere). There seems to be a massive impasse. Where do we go from here? --Shabidoo | Talk 08:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC) I absolutely think games are being played here and that some editors are driven in this instance not by a purely wholesome concern for the good of the encyclopedia, but by partisan politics and gamesmanship. Do you seriously not see that? On both sides? I'm not sure how anyone, no matter what their politics, could read this talk page and not have that impression. That is at the root of this impasse. Let's stop with the games is all I'm saying. Marteau (talk) 08:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC) ... and furthermore, editors of the opinion that this controversy is not "worth taking seriously" differ from Tyson himself, who took it seriously enough to address the issue, and seriously enough that he plans to apologize. That sounds fairly serious to me. Marteau (talk) 08:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC) A lot of users could claim that both you and I are playing games. That gets us nowhere. Such a great impasse. Where do we go from here? --Shabidoo | Talk 09:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC) No doubt. This is a nasty bit of business; thankfully something of this magnitude is rare, but what to do. I suppose all I can do is voice my opinion, wait for the results of the RfC (which, barring something monumental occurring will probably be for exclusion). And so be it. I don't expect my opinion regarding inclusion to actually make a difference, because minds, in this case, seem to be made up. No, I write because I need to, and I have to guess you do too. Marteau (talk) 09:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Regarding two claims made here, one: "you may not want to talk about climate change, but why do you think this website and the right-wing media jumped into the story?" I think you could very well be right. And you will find that this could be very common amongst those who investigate public claims by public figures. Someone who largely agress with, for instance, former President Bush, might be less inclined to investigate the veracity of claims they make (not always, but I hope you see the general point here). If someone who is opposed to Bush were to investigate a claim he made, you might be able to say, they did this investigation because they disagree with him or one of his agendas, and you would not necessarilly be wrong. Yet this would not undermine the results of what they find. If they find an inaccuracy in something they claim or did, this does not discredit on its own that fact. So in truth, the motivation is only part of the story here - the other part, which is more significant, is that there was actually an inaccuracy found. Were there not one, I think we'd be in a very different place - there would be "no there-there." But there was an inaccuracy in the claim. Two: "My point is this is only a "story" because the right-wing media despises Tyson" - This is untrue. It partly became a story because some people were motivated to look into it, sure - if a tree falls in a forest and noone hears it, did it really fall? (yes, but you know..) But also, again because Neil deGrasse Tyson was incorrect in his speech and made claims which were false. If that were not the case, absolutely there would be no notability. But it has become a story because actually, it was an incorrect statement. It has been picked up by more and more sources, and I will say ironically, partly because of the discussion happening on Wikipedia. If there was "no there-there," that wouldn't be the case. If it were just some claims thrown out there, that would be one thing - but the motivation of those making the initial claims, doesn't change the fact that an inaccuracy was found, and it has been deemed notable to be discussed in quite a few reputable sources now. Chester Lunt (talk) 15:59, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Right wing sources. That all deny climate change. Mystic55 (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Under the "Career" section. Beyond being a scientist, Tyson is an educator and paid speaker. This incident occurred during a paid speaking engagement and fits there better than under "Politics". Marteau (talk) 01:54, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for any improper protocol on my part. I'm getting a warning about my links but don't want to include the points without sources. Please collapse if found to be off topic. From my POV this discussion is quite a mess and indicates there is a lack of addressing Tyson's history of political entanglement. I suggest there should be a place that highlights his increasing political prominance. Between people like the Federalist author Sean Davis having an axe to grind[61] & a Daily Kos author saying "For those of us on the left side of the political spectrum, Tyson is like the hero of the pro-science crowd"[62] it's hard to deny his increasing political relevance/involvement. He's also commented on science denial within the political community "there is plenty of science denial from the left"[63] and has said he wants to help people make informed policy choices[64]. These points don't encapsulate his overall views but are handy examples. He seems to try to stay out of it when his writings & talks are politicized, but like it or not he is becoming a salient political figure (my POV). I'm not sure what degree of involvement, let alone how to quantify that involvement, constitutes a dedicated section and defer to more experienced editors on the proper way to address my suggestion, if at all necessary. As for the Bush (mis)quote, I think several people have made good points on problems with weight. It currently exists on Tyson's Wikiquote page[65] and if changes should be made anywhere it's there. As noteworthy as I find his improper quotation and later admission, I'm not sure it would even belong in the theoretical dedicated political section I suggest. Sure he made a mistake, but I don't see it as important enough to include in his core biography. Tetchmagikos (talk) 16:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It's called WP:BRD, not WP:BRRD

The article should be improved through normal consensus building, not edit-warring. After all, it's called WP:BRD, not WP:BRRD. This article was relatively stable until this bold edit on 16:13, September 16, 2014 which was immediately reverted on 16:27, September 16, 2014 - only 14 minutes later. Since then, editors have tried to bypass the normal BRD cycle by repeatedly edit-warring this content back into the article. Edit-warring is no way to win a content dispute. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to revert back to what it was stable at for the last 10 days, I would have been fine with that till we reach a better consensus. Now User:TheRedPenOfDoom is claiming there is a WP:BLP, violating because it is "controversial", I must have missed that part of WP:BLP, I did see the part where it says "contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced" should be removed. Maybe that is what he means but I thought we already had a consensus on the BLP aspects of this. Regardless I am not going to undoUser:TheRedPenOfDoom, If others feel what was added isn't reliably sourced enough for a BLP, I'll let another editor make that call.--Obsidi (talk) 02:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit Request: Views subsection format

Currently the subsection 'NASA' is tucked under 'Race and Social Justice'. I believe this is a minor edit correction of a typo. Could this be fixed, please?Kerani (talk) 14:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Done. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Another response from NDT

Here. Again, I am still feeling this is not noteworthy for the article, but I wish to share this post for more depth. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 02:17, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I am glad to see Tyson doing the right thing, and a public apology to a president adds weight to the issue and adds further grounds for including this controversy in the encyclopedia. But barring that, here is what I foresee happening many, many times out there in the real world: People learn Tyson publicly apologizes to the president. They come to the encyclopedia to obtain context. They'll think "OK, I see it says here, he was a wrestler... OK, is says here, he was a good dancer... that's nice... but where is this Bush thing?". They will then, perhaps, investigate WHY Wikipedia mentions him dancing and wrestling but not apologizing, and will learn. That can only be a good thing. Marteau (talk) 02:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

... and furthermore, by not providing people seeking information about this issue, we compel them to resort to a Google search, thus driving them away from our potentially non-biased, factual information without hype or frothing at the mouth, and send them away and right to the sites editors here are calling "hate blogs" and products of the "Noise Machine". Will we provide people with a non-biased, non-hyperbole filled accounting of this issue, or will we leave it up to the "haters" to tell them about it. The choice is ours. Marteau (talk) 03:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Marteau, I strongly disagree with your points. You really seem to be pushing a strong POV that is at odds with the evidence. This is a non-issue, that has little to no relevance to a biography on the subject. Please do me a favor and review actual biographies of scientists. You will not find one that says "An unknown blogger claimed so and so misquoted the president." This is irrelevant to Tyson, it has had zero impact on his career, and has no importance other than that given to it by the conservative blogosphere. Viriditas (talk) 03:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

It is the bio of a scientist AND a paid, professional speaker and educator. His conduct as a speaker is directly relevant to who he is as a professional and how he conducts his professional life, and the fact he has apologized to a former president for his conduct as a paid speaker is absolutely relevant. Marteau (talk) 03:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Marteau, I think you should read the Facebook post again, as you didn't seem to understand it. Read it now. The point that the conservative blogosphere has raised about Tyson's misquote is irrelevant. As Tyson and others have noted, this attempt to highlight a small, insignificant, trivial error about something he said in order to cast doubt on larger things (like climate science) is a transparent tactic of the right. There no evidence whatsoever that Tyson is a "compulsive liar and a fabricator", and that's all the conservative noise machine is attempting to do. This has no place on Wikipedia. I'm absolutely amazed at the incredible time and energy spent by dozens of editors trying to shoehorn this nonsense into the encyclopedia. There isn't a single, professional biography on the face of this planet that discusses trivial, insignificant things like this. This is nothing but a manufactured controversy, whose importance only exists in the minds of the bloggers that created it. I can't think of a single policy-based reason to add this to Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 04:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand what Tyson said very well, thank you very much. He complains about people using this issue to "cast doubt on everything else" he says. I'm not. Neither are many others. Some do, as you repeatedly point out, but not everyone. Some of us simply feel that his conduct as a professional and his need to apologize for his conduct as a professional to a former president is not trivia, per se, but goes directly towards his overarching story and belongs in his bio. Your POV is that this is trivial. Mine is not. It's as simple as that, and saying I don't seem to understand what Tyson is saying is just incorrect. Marteau (talk) 04:23, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't offered any POV, but you have, in heaping amounts. You write, "Some of us simply feel that his conduct as a professional and his need to apologize for his conduct as a professional to a former president is not trivia". Except, it is trivia, and your characterization of his "apology" is pure POV pushing. Tyson's explanation on his Facebook page ("A Case Study: Quoting George W. Bush") is the very definition of trivia. In fact, one can define trivia by only looking at this incident. We don't add content based on what conservative bloggers "feel" is important. We add it based on its overall authority, relevance, currency, reliability, and neutrality. The source material you claim we should add fails every aspect of evaluation, and more so because this is 1) a BLP, and 2) negative material. I can't think of a single policy or guideline that supports adding this information. What blows my mind is the amount of time and energy wasted trying to push this trivia into this article. It has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on Tyson's profession or the narrative of his biography. It is a manufactured controversy intended to distract and dissuade, not to inform and educate. If you truly believe that this nonsense belongs in this biography, then you should be able to find a single policy-based argument to support it. There's a reason, however, that you can't: the policies aren't designed to support contentious, poorly sourced, negative material about BLPs—quite the opposite actually. So why are you and others still here arguing for inclusion? We need to keep asking that question until we get a good answer. Clearly, you and others are not here to improve this topic, to bring it to GA or FA status. If you were, then you could at least argue, at the bare minimum, "I'm trying to improve this article, look at all the research I've done, and all of the authoritative sources I've used." But you can't say that, and frankly, none of the people arguing for inclusion can say that, because none of you are here to improve this topic. There's no consensus for inclusion, the policies don't support adding the material, and nobody can say they've done the research required. No, what we have here is a POV pushing campaign run from the conservative blogosphere, an attempt to manipulate the media and Wikipedia in order to take Tyson down a notch, based on nothing more than criticizing where Tyson said the quote occurred. Tyson addressed the quoting out of context, and demonstrates that his argument is still valid, regardless of where Bush initially gave the speech. So the substance of this entire debate is: "Tyson made a mistake when he said Bush gave this particular speech after September 11, 2001. Bush didn't; he gave the speech after the Columbia Shuttle disaster." I cannot imagine anything more trivial or petty than this. This has no place in this article. Viriditas (talk) 06:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

That this incident is not trivial is my POV. That it is, is your POV. The fact that you don't seem to realize that, and go so far as to say, "I haven't offered any POV" is all I need to know that you and I have nothing further to discuss. How can you discuss anything with someone who thinks their opinion is objective truth? You can't, so with you, I won't. Marteau (talk) 09:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Marteau, the burden of proof is on the editor proposing or adding material. Discussion can only take place if you understand that you have the responsibility to meet this burden, not me. Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Tyson having issued a clarification on his FB page adds no weight to the issue. Significant coverage by WP:RS (enough to establish notability) is still not there. It's that simple. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 10:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The fact that Tyson responded indicates that the issue was of some importance to him, or he wouldnt have responded (twice i believe). By your logic Tyson's own views, as expressed by him, are only worth of inclusion if those views receive substantial coverage in the media, which would exclude most of the content on his bio. Take a look at the 'views' section, how many of those views received any coverage in RS's, let alone substantial coverage? Would you apply the same standard you advocate here to Tyson's views on religion? Or Nasa? Bonewah (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think its fine if we explain that the reason he responded is that he was concerned a right wing effort to discredit him due to his views on climate change meant he didn't want to give fuel to AGW deniers. Mystic55 (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

And your source for that assertion about Tyson's motive is what, a posting on Daily Kos? Moynihanian (talk) 03:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Quite. Look: there are few contemporary scientists who have a 4,000-word biography in Wikipedia. In a 4,000-word biography, there should be room for a mildly critical point. Without that, the story is not complete. Much of the positive content in this biography has far weaker sourcing than the proposed item. Do the right thing, folks. Link to his apology: it is a handsome one. I doubt Tyson will be significantly diminished in the eyes of the public – unlike Wikipedia if editors here continue to insist on censoring this. There are far too many non-neutral biographies in Wikipedia as it is. Andreas JN466 22:49, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

There is definitely room for criticism of Tyson. For example his attack on philosophy is heavily criticized by philosophers (naturally) and some fellow scientists. I'm surprised there isn't anything on that yet. There has also been criticism of his new series "Cosmos" (aesthetic criticism). There is other criticism on his ideas, dissemination of ideas and even his personal behaviour. These are all documented by reliable sources (philosophers magazine, new scientist, NYT, etc.) By all means, an editor should be bold and add such material to the article (in a criticism of section). What I don't understand is why the saga of "some pissy blogger generating some undue controversy over a citation error (making serious accusations of habitual lying) and two newspapers who parroted it and some tweeters who harassed him about it until he gave a correction on facebook" is of any significance in his biography. In the long term it will be nothing but a trivial forgotten matter. If it even does end up in the article...surely someone in a year or two will cut it out and replace it with some criticism that is far more relevant, weighty, better sourced and due. --Shabidoo | Talk 00:13, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Very well put. Of course there is room for a criticism section. What person is perfect? Find criticism that is from reliable sources, and not blogs that make outrageous claims for political reasons. Objective3000 (talk)

Er, no. Wikipedia doesn't do "criticism" sections, and this is especially true when it comes to BLPs. Please try to familiarize yourself with our policies and guidelines, as well as our best practices before encouraging users to violate them. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I know they are not advised. But, if you are saying WP doesn't allow such sections, I may have to spend the next 30 years of my life deleting them all.:) Objective3000 (talk) 01:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Encouraging users to familiarize themselves with policy is always a good idea. Though it's probably best done in a civil way and without being so snarky and condescending?

There are hundreds of "criticism" sections throughout uncyclopedia (maybe thousands?), in some cases they are appropriate. You're right...it's probably not a good idea to have a dedicated "criticism" section in an article on Tyson. But in any case, that wasn't my main point or even my secondary point. --Shabidoo | Talk 01:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Race and Social Justice

In the paragraph titled "Race and Social Justice," it is mentioned that Tyson appeared on a Fox News affiliate. Fox News is a network, and does not have affiliates. Does CNN have affiliates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.26.159 (talk) 03:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The correct term is "Fox affiliate". Simply remove the "News" part. Of course, you probably knew this already. Viriditas (talk) 04:03, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Tyson felt this was worth responding to, is that noteable or undue?

Tyson has publicly addressed these claims at least twice now, the second time confirming that the quote in question was inaccurate Link.. If the case for including this information was based solely on the relatively meager sourcing we have seen so far, i would say that excluding it was an OK decision. The fact that Tyson felt it important enough to address it directly tells me that this issue was important to him, and, therefore, important enough to at least mention. So, in what will hopefully find *some* common ground, i offer the following edit proposal, which is also option 9 above:

:Following accusations that Tyson had fabricated a quote by former president George W Bush, ^{(cite the federalist, maybe one or two other sources)}, Tyson said in part "And I here publicly apologize to the President for casting his quote in the context of contrasting religions rather than as a poetic reference to the lost souls of Columbia. I have no excuse for this, other than both events-- so close to one another -- upset me greatly." ^{(cite https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/partial-anatomy-of-my-public-talks/10152360009440869)}

Thoughts? Bonewah (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. Don't cite thefederalist.com. It's not a reliable source by any stretch, especially for a biography or a living person. Physics Today or The Week would be better.

For the broader question, he responded on facebook. Is everything he posts on facebook automatically notable? Mr. Swordfish (talk) 16:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think citing the federalist is appropriate here. Yes it is not a reliable source as to any fact about Tyson, but that isn't why it is being cited, its being cited for WP:RSOPINION, as they were the one who made the initially accusation. Its saying what the Federalist's accusation was, not that Tyson actually cited Bush incorrectly. Only the self source is a good source for that. --Obsidi (talk) 16:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

(EC)Precisely. They made the accusation so they are a reliable source for the accusation. Further, citing them is an effort towards compromise. To answer the question by Mr swordfish, Not everything he posts on facebook is, but given everything else, his response is notable, even if it happens to appear on facebook. Bonewah (talk) 16:38, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Has any reliable source reported on this facebook post? If and when they do, we can use that to gauge how important it is and how much weight to give it. Right now we don't have anything to go on. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:49, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this is fairly close, but there is no mention about how it was originally put in the context of 9/11, maybe an extra word or two in the first part of the sentence would fix that (something as small as "about 9/11" added), then I would support it as much as any other proposal. (as a grammatical matter, it seems like a very long sentence, maybe split it into two? and I think the "said in part" could be cut down to just "said") --Obsidi (talk) 16:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that as long as the proposed entry cites thefederalist.com you will receive significant pushback regarding WP:BLP. In the interest of building consensus you might want to consider relying on other sources. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 17:43, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"Accusations" must include that it was a conservative blog. Omission to make POV is still POV. Mystic55 (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a POV problem is describing the accusations as coming from a conservative blog (hey conservative blog gets one right!), but I just am unsure if it should be included from a WP:WEIGHT point of view, I mean how much does it being described as a conservative blog really matter to the story of Neil Tyson? I mean I think most people wouldn't care if it came from a liberal or conservative of loony nuts idiots if it is proven true by other sources. Adding the "conservative blog" part would be VERY important if it were merely an allegation without substantiation (even if the allegation was reported in WP:RS), because it would show that the allegation is less likely of being true because of possible ulterior motives. In this case that doesn't apply. Oh, and I am not all that sure we can call the federalist.com a "blog" I believe it has an editorial board that makes it more then a blog even if it isn't yet a WP:RS. --129.174.227.192 (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

If The Federalist were not notable before, Tyson has made them so by responding. But even if not, The Federalist references aren't even necessary for inclusion now that Tyson has addressed the topic. There is no longer any logically sound reason to deny inclusion of this event (although it probably belongs in a new "Controversy" section).--Froglich (talk) 21:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the question: "Is everything he posts on facebook automatically notable?" I think the answer to this question is clearly no, but it doesn't need to be. Facebook just happened to be the means which he used to respond to the situation. That he responded to it is what contributes to its notability, in this context. In seeking a reliable source that quotes the facebook post, while I wouldn't argue against seeking one, WP:RS (specifically WP:SELFSOURCE) makes it clear that facebook in itself could be considered a reliable source in specific cases. "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves" so long as they meet certain criteria, which I believe are met in this case. Chester Lunt (talk) 03:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• No, this stuff is not going to be included based on Facebook posts, or on The Federalist. The whole RS requirement isn't just there for reliability purposes--it also helps separate the wheat from the chaff. In other words, if reliable sources don't report on it, it might as well not have happened, lest every single thing listed on every single blog become some noteworthy event which, in this case, is clearly used for political purposes. I'm not saying that Wikipedia editors are abusing the article for political purposes, but making a controversy out of a blog and a couple of Facebook posts or whatever, that's making a mockery out of the encyclopedia. Drmies (talk) 03:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing that they should be included based merely on a facebook post or a blog entry. But on the specific question of, does Tyson's apology need to be picked up by another source, I think the answer is made clear by WP:SELFSOURCE which outlines that facebook can be a reliable source in the context of information about themselves. I admit I could be misunderstanding the policy - if so, feel free to correct me. Chester Lunt (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The point isn't just about reliability, but rather about notability. Basically, stuff that doesn't get picked up in reliable, mainstream publications typically isn't worthwhile including in an encyclopedia. Drmies (talk) 03:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and towards that point, that he responded lends points towards it being notable (it was notable enough to respond to), in addition to its appearance in multiple publications. While it may have begun as something much smaller (on one site), it grew as a story to where we are now, where I think it would be quite appropriate to include a mention written in a neutral way. Chester Lunt (talk) 04:36, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Tyson's reply on Facebook has been covered by a reliable source, [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-cult-of-neil-degrasse-tyson-111540.html#.VCz06PldWSo this article at Politico. Kelly ^hi! 06:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The Facebook apology is also covered by Davis in The Federalist here. Andreas JN466 08:04, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    • It's also covered by The National Review [66], but of course they're not acceptable either. I'm sure the Wiki-censors can find a justification, if they even choose to bother with one. Moynihanian (talk) 02:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
      • It's all a conspiracy! WP: Soapbox WP: Tinfoil — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystic55 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
        • If you say so, ha ha! Moynihanian (talk) 03:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This Controversy Is Yet Another Vivid Illustration of Wikipedia's Dysfunction

Totally off-topic, but there is one takeaway: "notability" is not just a policy (actually, that's Wikipedia:Notability), but also a word in the English language pointing at the editorial judgment on whether content is notable (look it up in the dictionary) enough to be included in an article. Drmies (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
When your "encyclopedia" is built on the idea that there is no such thing as a fact in its own right, but that factuality itself is determined by a majority of "editors," then there are no fixed stars at all, including Wikipedia's vaunted rules, policies, and principles, any of which can (and are) routinely ignored by the Wikicensors and Wikilawyers who populate this degraded website and give it a worldwide reputation of absolute unreliability when it comes to any topic where there is dispute. To be more specific, this "Talk" page is typical in that it discusses whether or not Tyson's misquotation of Bush is "notable" enough to be mentioned in the article. This is something I ran into before I finally threw up my hands and decided that I'd never make another edit to a Wikipedia article unless and until the enterprise changes its relationship to facts. You see, a look at the "notability" standard will show that it explicitly and prominently does not apply to the content of an article, but only to whether the subject of an article is worthy of inclusion in this online "encyclopedia." That doesn't stop the Wikicensors and Wikilawyers here and on every other article under dispute from blatantly and directly misusing the notability standard. It's one of my favorite Wiki-sins. You see, where there are no facts, there are no standards, no rules, and no principles other than what a roving flashmob might agree upon at any given moment. This, my Wikifriends, is why this enterprise is laughed at around the world, and why serious people avoid you like the plague. By the way, I don't care one way or the other whether Tyson screwed up the quote. I'm here as a consequence of the repetition of the same old Wikifarce, this one motivated purely by politics. This case it's lefty types squelching wingnutties. I've seen it the other way around at Wikipedia too. And I've seen no-wing absurdity. It always boils down to the reality that, whenever there's a controversy, this site becomes Wikilordoftheflies. Moynihanian (talk) 23:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC) WP:WPDNNY - Cwobeel (talk) 23:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC This is one facet of one of life's core realities, at least for those of us who studied enough Greek philosophy to think that there is such a thing as reality. I'd only point out that it applies to both of us. Moynihanian (talk) 02:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Do you have anything at all to say that is on point? Objective3000 (talk) 23:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC) I guess the fact that Wikipedia never met a rule, a principle, or a standard it can't ignore is so routine that there's no point in even mentioning the black hole within, is there? Moynihanian (talk) 00:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC) How about ignoring WP:GoodFaith about your editors or WP: Soapbox about your fellow editors who simply don't think that a deliberate attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill by someone using attempt to bring public pressure to bear against Wikipedia's integrity? Show me the source that cared about this quote BEFORE the Federalist and BEFORE Cosmos talked about Climate Change (Yeah I said it) and maybe we can respeak about notability. Mystic55 (talk) 03:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Just to address this: the standard you are imposing here about notability is unrealistic and circular. Imagine applying it to a public figure, like perhaps Neil deGrasse Tyson - in order to prove he is notable enough for an article, we must find articles discussing him from reliable sources before he became notable. You wouldn't be able to do that, and this isn't how it works. One thing can lead to another - we live in a world where a blog post can get picked up by others, eventually leading to larger, well known, reputable publications picking it up, and even eventually leading to Neil deGrasse Tyson responding himself. That it began as something much smaller matters much less than that it became bigger. Chester Lunt (talk) 03:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Again the so-called notability "standard" here explicitly states that it does not apply to content of an article, only to whether the article should exist at all. This "standard" may well be the most routinely ignored "standard" at Wikipedia, although there are plenty of others. As for "public pressure against Wikipedia's integrity," well, I think that sort of thing is strictly a function of Wikipedia's manifest lack of integrity. Occasionally, someone(s) will make enough of a public fuss to embarrass Wikipedia, although the longer I observe this fustercluck of an "encyclopedia," the more tempted I am to add Wikipedia to the list of entities that cannot be embarrassed: dogs, Republicans, real estate developers, Daily Kos, car dealers, Wikipedia ... Moynihanian (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC) For something that lacks integrity, there sure is a lot of effort by folks who otherwise claim that wikipedia has no integrity to control every aspect of their articles. See Romney's article for example. Mystic55 (talk) 03:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC) When you have no integrity, you are much more susceptible to outright manipulation. It is rampant throughout Wikipedia, which in recent years has become swamped by advertising -- commercial and otherwise, which is more commonly termed propaganda -- disguised as encyclopedia entries. A standards-free "encyclopedia" is a sitting duck. Moynihanian (talk) 04:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC) To the Wikicensor who tried to hide this -- Please don't. We're not China yet, as much as you want us to be. Thanks. Moynihanian (talk) 05:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Neil deGrasse Tyson fabrication allegations COATRACKed?

I've noticed that the allegations seem to have migrated from this article to Thefederalist.com. As it stands, the latter article appears to be operating as a WP:COATRACK to provide a home for the allegations. If the allegations aren't notable enough for inclusion here, I can't see how they could be notable enough to be forked off to another article. We may have a situation where partisans are using Thefederalist.com as a home for claims that have been removed from this article - effectively a WP:POVFORK situation. I don't think that's going to be viable or acceptable in terms of WP:POV or WP:BLP. Prioryman (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The only reason someone has not added the fabrication allegations to this article recently is that it is locked down, and was locked down just after an editor deleted mention of the allegations. Also, it is locked down due to edit warring, not BLP issues or notability issues. Claims do not appear in this article because that's the way the article was before it was locked down, again, for edit warring, not because of BLP issues or notability issues. Claiming people are adding this information to the Federalist article are “partisans” is not assuming good faith. Marteau (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The notability of the allegations is still an open question. The fact that they dont appear here is in no way an indication that the issue is resolved. Bonewah (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The only reason? You don't think failure to reach consensus for inclusion (yet) is a valid reason? Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm a neutral party here, but just looking at things, assuming that Thefederalist.com is not deleted (it looks like a no-consensus at the moment even among established and presumably non-canvassed editors), this event likely has more weight in an article about Thefederalist (which seems to be of marginal notability) than one about deGrasse Tyson, since at the moment Tyson seems much more well-known than The Federalist, and this event seems to make up a significant fraction of the the independent coverage of this site.0x0077BE [^talk/_contrib] 20:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I said, "The only reason someone has not added the fabrication allegations to this article recently is that it is locked down" and that is, indeed, true. My point is, that it's non-appearence in this article was not the result of a process. The process is still going on. It's non appearance here is due to the fact that it was locked down minutes after the allegations were deleted. A simple matter of timing, not process. Furthermore, WP:COATRACK is not policy, it is not even a guideline. It is an essay. I agree with it's aim, but it's application here is inappropriate in my opinion. Marteau (talk) 20:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm totally uninvolved in this issue, but it's patently obvious from the deletion discussion that there is a hell of a lot of political campaigning going on here, on both sides (though not to the same extent by both) - hence my reference to partisans. Prioryman (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Your right. Mea culpa. I'll strike that out. I have pointed out the partisanship evident in these issues myself. Marteau (talk) 21:22, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

(EC)I agree, but there are also those who see an article somewhere that says "look at what is going on in Wikipedia" and they join the discussion (for better or worse) as a result. I think Wikipedia has to be able to both deal with the Meat Puppets, while encouraging, or at least not discouraging those who are sincere in their interest. Not finding fault with your approach or your comments here, just saying that, unhappily, we are judged based on how we deal with the difficult subjects, not the infinitely more numerous ones where everything in Wikipedia works as intended. Bonewah (talk) 21:26, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think not. We've seen enough of these "campaigns" on Wikipedia to know that most of them are coordinated offsite in a covert manner, usually to denigrate and attack a BLP. I think it is highly unlikely that all of these user accounts are just dropping by to see what is going on. Viriditas (talk) 01:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Your conspiracy theory is both odd and a broad violation of WP:AGF. I suggest striking that statement. Capitalismojo (talk) 04:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

As long as Viriditas isn't attacking anyone personally, I don't see much of a problem with their remark, and as a conspiracy theory, it's not far-fetched, at least not in general. In addition, the contributions at the Federalist AfD certainly suggest off-site coordination by SPAs. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The only point I'd disagree with Viriditas on is that I don't think it's being coordinated covertly - it all seems quite overt to me. Prioryman (talk) 07:08, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot going on behind the scenes. Don't forget about the relationship between Heartland and the Discovery Institute,[67] and how Discovery started going bananas after Cosmos was rebooted.[68] In April, Jay Richards of the Discovery Institute attacked Tyson in the Federalist.[69] This is all part of the same campaign (the wedge strategy) with all the same players. Add the current Colorado High School censorship controversy to the mix, which has the hands of Koch's Americans for Prosperity group all over it, and you can see a full-court press attempt by the conservative right in play. There's no need for us to go after ISIS, we've got them right here at home in the states. Viriditas (talk) 09:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

So you noticed TheFederalist's evil attack, but you still want the site's existence Wiki-censored away. I tell ya, this is like shooting Wikifish in a Wikibarrel. Moynihanian (talk) 02:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Wasn't Cosmos produced and aired by Fox? Kelly ^hi! 10:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Fox's entertainment division is beholden to mainstream entertainment ratings. Fox News division is beholden to a hyperpartisan strategy. There's a well established history of them operating in strikingly contradictory directions. Alsee (talk) 12:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Some of the comments in this thread have gotten way off topic. The talk space is strictly for improving the article and not for discussing politics. TStein(talk) 18:36, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Yikes! I guess I should have read the rest of the last threads before making a comment just about this one. If I made a comment about every off topic section I'd do nothing else. TStein (talk) 18:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Notability Standard Misused (Again) By Wikilawyers This isn't exactly a surprise, given the only tangential relationship between Wikipedia and facts, let alone its own (purported) rules, standards, and principles. But hell, why not point out (just for grins) that the notability standard applies only to whether or not a person or topic is important enough to write about at all. The standard specifically and quite explicity does NOT apply to article content. But the Wikicensors and Wikilawyers here (and throughout Wikipedia) routinely cite the standard while ignoring its content. And then you wonder why serious people don't take you too seriously. Moynihanian (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:UNDUE in order to recognize your glaring error. It most certainly applies to article content. Also, I can't help but note your reliance on the term "Wikicensor", as it harkens back to the wedge strategy used by creationists. You folks have done enough damage and it's time for you to exit stage left. Look at how dangerous conservatives have made the world. If you hadn't tried to remove evolution from the school books in Texas and fought science with your bibles, it's possible the Ebola outbreak could have been prevented. Instead we have Texas leading the world in ignorance, and sending people suffering from Ebola home with antibiotics. Please keep your ignorance to yourself. We've had enough of it. Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? Using such a broad brush to paint those you apparently despise says much more about you than anything else. I suggest you stop the inflammatory language. Arzel (talk) 01:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Texas is arguably the center of conservative power and one of the most conservative states in the Bible Belt. Its campaign against science (that is, any science that isn't devoted to petrochemical extraction), its defense of creationism, and its battle against secularism are well known. Seems highly relevant to note the real world consequences of this kind of philosophy, and it's highly relevant, as these ideas form the basis of the ideological campaign against Tyson. Is there something wrong with despising the virus of ignorance? I sure hope you won't treat it with antibiotics like Texas did. When rational people are confronted with ideas that don't work, they discard them, they don't embrace them even more than before. Viriditas (talk) 01:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Everyone needs to get off their soapbox, this page is not the place for it. Bonewah (talk) 01:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Only on Wikipedia would it be "standing on a soapbox" to point out a glaring and obvious violation of your own (alleged) "standards" in your editing. Carry on, then. This contratemps is trivial, but it's still quite blatant. I like those "small" examples, because in my experience, those who cheat on the little things can't be trusted on the big things either. It's especially amusing to see myself characterized as an evil, anti-scientific Texas creationist (tm?) for noticing all this. I wish I could bronze a comment, 'cause I'd definitely bronze that. Moynihanian (talk) 02:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Moynihanian (talk) 02:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, which is why lying about the fact that the only reason the Federalist cared about Tyson's quote is because they're funded as a propoganda front organization coordinated with several other political front organizations, some of which have managed to buy their way into the umbrella standard of reliable sources solely by whining about a lack of objectivity in the 'liberal' media until they are brought in with no editorial standards or journalistic integrity whatsoever is a little thing that I think leads to the big thing that this whole thing is a lot of BS, but if we absolutely MUST include it then we can site the fact that it was a CONSERVATIVE blog that started the query, because to do anything less whatsoever is a lie. A little lie, but a very important one. Mystic55 (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

One person's BS is another person's belief. I agree it's trivial (and have written as much above), but it's such a pure case of everything wrong with Wikipedia that I decided to hop in. My full views about Wikipedia and facts are on my talk page. Yes, it should be included, along with the obvious fact that TheFederalist is a conservative site. But then, there are no facts here, obvious or otherwise, only agreement among "editors" about what will be presented as quasi-factual. Maybe TheFederalist should be called a Martian website. If enough "editors" agree, then a Martian website it will be! Moynihanian (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Why would it necessarilly be needed to state that it was a conservative blog, when the relevent claim here has been shown to be factual (and Neil deGrasse Tyson has admitted as such?) Chester Lunt (talk) 03:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For the same reason we don't include what his horoscope was on September 11, 2001, what his favorite color is, what he had for breakfast yesterday or why he got sick when he ate that spoiled food 2 years ago; these too are factual. Because it is not notable. EXCEPT of course, that it IS notable because a conservative website decided to MAKE it noticeable and make a big wikipedia bashing campaign about it. Mystic55 (talk) 03:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This is funny! Here you are, talking about "notable," when Wikipedia's so-called "standard" on "notability" explicitly states that it does not apply to the content of articles. This reminds me of my favorite scene in my fave cheesy cable TV movie, "The Devil's Advocate," in which Al Pacino, playing the devil, leers into the camera and says, "Vanity -- it's my favorite sin." My favorite Wiki-sin is all the Wikilawyering that surrounds the willful failure to actually read the so-called "standard" about "notability," or (more likely) the willful failure to abide by it, given that -- in the end -- words means whatever the latest Wikiflashmob decides they mean at any given moment. Moynihanian (talk) 04:30, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

What he had for breakfast or what his favorite color are are irrelevant to his overarching story and do not belong in his biography. His professional conduct is different. He is a professional speaker and the fact he felt compelled to apologize to a former president due to his professional conduct is pertinent to his overarching story. That it started as a “manufactured controversy” may or may not be true. But the fact of the matter is, it developed into a REAL controversy. Editors seem to be fascinated by the motives of who started this issue. Why it got started and by who, and whether they hate Tyson or not is irrelevant to the fact that the controversy became very real and the subject of much discussion by real people in the real world. Marteau (talk) 04:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Some who believe this began as a “manufactured controversy” are proposing that the way to address it is to ignore it, or to not mention anything at all of what happened leading up to and including Tyson's apologies. I believe in information, not darkness. I believe in shining light onto nasty situations, not blacking it out. The way to deal with this is to include mitigating and contextual information. Information written by reliable sources and supporters of Tyson to give it proper weight. Not to try silencing your opponent, but shining the light of truth on your opponents. Wikipedia can be that light of truth, by dealing with the raw facts, not hyperbole, not distortions, but facts. But blacking out coverage in this matter is a manufactured silence almost as bad as a manufactured controversy. Marteau (talk) 04:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is ever "the light of truth," it's by mistake. Moynihanian (talk) 07:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Had a few edit conflicts with Marteau, but in response to the earlier points - sure, they tried to gain attention - as anyone presumably does when they write a blog, or article, or cover a news story. Someone could write an article about your examples too - his horoscope, his breakfast yesterday, even indeed his breakfast today (scandalous!) Probably, those would not be picked up by bigger publications, and probably they would not get a response from Neil deGrasse Tyson. There's numerous reasons to why not, yet what really matters to Wikipedia is that it hasn't (yet) happened. Meanwhile, we do have a case here where something has become notable, after being raised - sure - initially in a blog. Yet it was picked up by others, due in large part because what was found was that Tyson inaccurately quoted/contextualized the statements of another prominent figure (a former President).

We can flip this around a bit: you or I could give a speech at a function and inaccurately quote a prominent figure, and it is quite possible that it wouldn't get a single article or even blog entry. It is natural though that more people take notice when Neil deGrasse Tyson gives a speech, and that is what happened. So I think, we could talk about hypotheticals all day, or delve into why some stories become bigger than others, but in the context of discussion for this article, I'm not sure that the initial motivation is essential to be mentioned, given the events that followed. Chester Lunt (talk) 04:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Ahem, but Wikipedia's so-called "standard" on notability quite explicitly and specifically states that it does not apply to the content of an article. But hey, we're in a fact-free zone! Who cares about what words mean, when anyone and their 15 closest virtual friends, i.e. cronies in bathrobes, can ignore anything at their will? Moynihanian (talk) 04:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry for making things unclear with my word choice (I didn't intend to reference a specific policy). What I meant to get at is, his hypotheticals are unlikely to have warranted coverage in media outlets, but what matters is that this non-hypothetical incident has warranted coverage, and a response from Neil deGrasse Tyson directly, and therefore is worthy of inclusion in the article. Chester Lunt (talk) 04:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

What coverage? Where? The echo chamber of the self-citing conservative blogosphere is not a valid example of media coverage. However, there is one aspect of this story that has been covered reliably, and all of you have failed to identify it. I have, and I will surprise you very shortly with what I found. Viriditas (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Remember, your rules (such as they are) don't allow original research. Not that anyone ever followed an inconvenient rule on this site! Moynihanian (talk) 07:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

There are some examples of the coverage above, including the most recently added source - Salon[70], which is far from a part of any "conservative echo chamber." While acknowledging the central fact (that Tyson was incorrect in his assertion, and that he has admitted so), it criticizes those who would take this a leap further and use it to otherwise impugn him as a scientist (to roughly paraphrase). Chester Lunt (talk) 13:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment on importance: I am not following these debates very closely, but as someone interested in view stats (I am a co-writer of the WP:TOP25 and Signpost weekly Traffic Report </plug>), I found it interesting that the views of the Tyson article haven't been impacted in any noticeable way by this controversy. It chugs along at about 4K views per day.[71] (We'd still see a jump regardless of whether the article has covered the controversy, people look to see if its there.) The only evidence of attention comes with the stats of Thefederalist.com, understandably a much less popular article, but its' counts jumped to the ~2500 per day range (from the ~100 range) for 9-26 and 9-27[72]; they have since dropped below 1,000 per day. This is a very small controversy in the scheme of life. No doubt we want to get it right, but we shouldn't think some battle for the soul of left-right American politics is at issue.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 13:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. Give it a week to 10 days it will go back to the low hundreds. That's the nature of storms in a teacup. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)