Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

Select a section:

WP:RD/H

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

November 7

Regarding the photographer for File:Brown lady.jpg

Does anyone here know of way of finding out more about the photographer? The aim is to figure out when this clearly notable image can be more widely used.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:04, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From the information about the photo, we know that the photographer is male, British, active in the 1930's, and of some means (to be able to afford the camera), The photographer is named. However feeding that name into search engines produced plenty of results about the photo, but few about the photographer.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:10, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the reference to being able to afford the camera. The photo was taken in the 1930s, not the 1870s - $2 Brownie cameras would have been ubiquitous by then, unless I'm misunderstanding something from your reference. Matt Deres (talk) 15:43, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did the OP even read the article Brown Lady of Raynham Hall? It literally says the name of the photographer. Multiple times, and explains how he took the picture. There's a whole section on it. --Jayron 32 16:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did, I am trying to find biographical information on the photographer using the name quoted there. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. --Jayron 32 19:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What I am trying to find out is if the photographer was still alive, with a view to getting the photo re-licensed. Long shot but then in phenomenon related matter stranger things have occurred. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find ANY information on Hubert Provand except that he took that one photograph. The earliest mention of him I can find is a 1937 article in Life Magazine which is not substantially different than what's in the Wikipedia article. I've basically got bubkis. There's very little likelyhood he's alive. Even if he were in his early 20s in 1937, he'd be over 100 years old today. --Jayron 32 19:07, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article you linked gave another name and that led to http://www.xenophon.org.uk/indreshira.html which states that Provand was a pusedonym, and that they died in 1961. So that demolishes the possibility of getting it re-licensed. The article however also presents an alternate theory about the image. I'll leave a talk page note, in cases anyone want to summarise the theory into the article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A fake. Imagine that. :)←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Indigenous Russian Literature

I'm looking for resources on Samoyedic, Chukchi, Ket and Even literature. déhanchements (talk) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some preliminary searching brings up Yuri Rytkheu, the "father of Chukchi literature". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Even [1]

Chukchi [2] Шурбур (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 8

Verify that three states ban "consent searches"

Hello, I'm trying to verify the following:

New Jersey Supreme Court in 2002 banned consent searches
Minnesota Supreme Court also banned consent searches in 2003
Rhode Island banned consent searches in 2004 when re-enacting it's data collection law

My original source was: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/asset_upload_file125_28283.doc

I'm a bit confused now, because there was some type of reversal in 2015 in NJ dealing with "warrantless searches."

If you can point me in the right direction to get a definitive, up to date, reference, that would be great!

Is for: Consent search (see Talk page)

Thanks! Seahawk01 (talk) 02:56, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your attempt to improve the article. According to the ACLU document you linked to, the New Jersey case was State v. Carty (in 2002, as you mention). Googling "state v carty new jersey" will bring up plenty of results, but an article analyzing the case can be found here. Note that the court heard that police may still request to perform a consent search in a case of "reasonable and articulable suspicion" that a crime has been committed. There is no need to find probable cause.

A 2016 New Jersey Supreme Court decision looking at New Jersey consent searches (including applying the aforementioned Carty test) would be State v. Hagans.

A somewhat dated, but still relevant analysis of consent searches in New Jersey can be found here Eliyohub (talk) 16:59, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Eliyohub: perfect, thanks for the help! I put your comments here: Talk:Consent search. Quick note, you should ping the user when answering, cause I almost forgot to check back for the answer! Glad I did :-) Seahawk01 (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1840s Mexican Population question.

(For an alternate history with a different border after the Mexican-American war) I'm looking for information on the population of Mexico in the 1840s. Specifically, excluding the Republic of Texas, what percentage of the population of Mexico was in lands transferred to the United States by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and what percentage of the population of Mexico was in the lands north of the current southern tip of Texas. I know that this second splits Nuevo Leon, but since Monterrey is south of that line, I would expect that not much of Nuevo Leon (or much of Tamaulipas) would be included. I'm also assuming that all of Baja would be grabbed by US if this line was set.Naraht (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just considering the first part: The population of Mexico in 1865 was 8.2 million, and in 1803 it was 6.8 million. The populations of California and New Mexico in 1840 was roughly 180k. So based on this, one can reasonably assume that, in 1840, the non-Texian population transfer was no larger than 2%. --Golbez (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I replied to a different question a few weeks ago, "there were only three main areas of compactly-settled significant Spanish-speaking populations in the whole area of Texas and the Mexican Cession: San Antonio and its surroundings, the lower Rio Grande valley, and northern New Mexico. (Other areas tended to be rather low-density, despite the inhabitants often leading what are now considered to be picturesque ranching or ex-mission lifestyles: 'By 1846, Alta California had a Spanish-speaking population of under 10,000'.)"

One prominent population a little South of the 1848 border was the Yaqui indians of the Sonoran desert, who maintained a kind of semi-autonomous status until such was later curtailed by the central Mexican government's brutal suppression of a number of revolts... AnonMoos (talk) 02:20, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with these studies is that they ignore native populations. Mexico, in its censuses (for whatever they were) were largely concerned with their own subjects, and thus treated non-Mexicans (read: native people) as non-persons and ignored them. The fact that the counts quoted above specify "Spanish-speaking population" belies the fact that there were many more people living in these lands that were ignored as not-worth-counting. There were many times the number of native peoples, such as the Paiute, Ute, Mono, and many many dozens of other people groups. Consider the Yokut people: Estimates indicate that this one group had 18,000 people living in a small part of Alta California in 1770. Just from those numbers, it's clear the number of actual humans living in those lands was many many times larger than the "10,000 Spanish-speakers" noted above. I have no basis for guessing at an actual number, but I would not be shocked if the number of people living on the lands delineated above numbered in the 6-digit range easily. Just because those people were ignored by Mexico and the U.S. doesn't make them not have existed. --Jayron 32 03:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly, but the non-Spanish-speaking Indians probably mostly had little loyalty to Mexico, and could not really be called "Mexicans" in any meaningful sense (with some individual exceptions, of course), so they're not so directly relevant to the issue of United States vs. Mexican control of the area... AnonMoos (talk) 09:04, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd counter that, however. Some government is going to have to contend with them and/or their descendants. They exist and at some point the government in question is going to have to provide them with services like roads and schools and police and the like. They exist and need to be accounted for for all the same reasons that governments account for everyone else in a census. More to the point; just because they made the mistake of considering those people non-persons, doesn't mean we are forced to make the same mistake. Doing so has consequences. --Jayron 32 13:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wish you wouldn't throw around rhetoric loosely. They were not counted because they were not part of the political community for most purposes, which is different from saying that they were "non-persons". Probably in some circumstances some individuals did regard them as effectively "non-persons", but this does NOT follow directly or simply from their not being counted in a census. And in most cases the Mexican government wasn't going to build roads or schools for them -- in fact, it broke up the missions, which disrupted what little schooling had been going on under Spain. AnonMoos (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 9

Recent United States presidential approval rating

Regarding United States presidential approval rating#Graphs:

The last two presidents show a pretty flat line. Why? Are there sources indicating that this is related to this echo chamber social media information thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trump's is remarkably stable (unlike the subject himself). All I think that shows is that he has a solid core of supporters who don't care what blunders he commits and how many lies he spouts. Abraham Lincoln was right: You really can fool some of the people all of the time. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:36, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He got 46 percent of the popular vote in 2016, and his approval has tended to hover around that mark (or lower). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"He got 46 percent of the popular vote" Against 48% of the popular vote for Hillary Clinton. Barack Obama had received 51% of the popular vote in 2012, and Mitt Romney 47%. Trump is less popular than other major presidential candidates of the 2010s.

At least Trump performed better than John McCain, who received 45.7% of the popular vote in 2008. Dimadick (talk) 09:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, with Donald and Hillary, the majority of Americans didn't want either one of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:35, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For one so pedantic, you should realize that the "majority of Americans" have never expresed a preference for any candidate for any public office. DOR (HK) (talk) 22:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To put another way: a majority of American voters didn't want Trump, and a majority of American voters didn't want Hillary. Americans who don't bother to vote are not a factor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The crowds decisions in politics doesn't satisfy even slightly the first 3 conditions for a wise crowd in The Wisdom of Crowds, the only thing it does have is a way of aggregating their opinions. Politics is mob rule. Dmcq (talk) 10:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or, in this case, not a lone mob, but 50 of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Worst mass shooting in US history?

Is it correct to say that the Wounded Knee Massacre is the worst mass shooting in U.S. history? Most of the lists I've seen only focus on "modern" US history. For example, this list by CNN[3] omits everything before 1949. I'm interested in all of US history, not just recent events. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of those "how do you define your terms" issues. You can make cases either way, depending on how you define such fuzzy terms as "worst" and "mass" and "modern" and so on. There are perspectives in which the Wounded Knee incident was a military engagement, and as such, are usually excluded from the normal definition of "mass shooting" which usually means some private citizen going on an singular rampage. I'm not saying that definition is the only one a person could use, merely that you could make an argument either way. --Jayron 32 04:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Very loosely some of the Civil War battles was probably more people being shot than Wounded Knee. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with Jayron on this: "mass shooting" is generally an individual or a small group (e.g. Columbine High School massacre, with two shooters) going around shooting people at random or shooting a significant number of specific people who have been pre-selected as targets. My Lai, Wounded Knee, Gnadenhutten, and other situations performed by larger bodies of individuals (none of whom was individually responsible for an exceptional number of deaths) generally don't get considered. [Gnadenhutten obviously wasn't a shooting, but if it were, I'd argue against considering it a "mass shooting" for this reason.) Nyttend (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"You can make cases either way, depending on how you define such fuzzy terms as "worst" and "mass" and "modern" and so on"

"Modern" is easy. It corresponds to Modern history, which typically covers everything from the Fall of Constantinople (1453) to the present. Dimadick (talk) 18:49, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The OP said "modern US history". https://www.just-one-liners.com/the-difference-between-america-and-england-is-that-americans-think-100-years-is-a-long-time-while-the-english-think-100-miles-is-a-long-way/ PrimeHunter (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Death penalty for killing a cat in medieval England.

I once been told that in pre-christian England there was such penalty, with the reasoning that a single cat, throughout its life, eats such quantity of mice, that throughout their lives would have eat such quantity of wheat that would supply a person's entire life. Thus - killing a cat = killing a person.

However, I found no source for this (very nice) story. Does anyone can shed light on this?

אילן שמעוני (talk) 13:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Untrue. But, are you sure the story isn't actually about Ancient Egypt? Where cat worship might have had the same response. ——SerialNumber54129 13:52, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your title says "medieval", but your question asks for "pre-Christian". Cats in later medieval Europe were not held in high regard - see cat-burning for just a taste. I'm having trouble finding anything on the earlier pre-Christian situation with cats. It would likely be involved with Anglo-Saxon paganism to some extent, but our article says nothing of cats in that context. There is a huge amount of completely bogus information on the net regarding paganism, as many latter-day charlatans and nutjobs like to dress up their fanciful beliefs with words like "druid" and "pagan", so beware of anything you read online on this topic (i.e. double-check the source). Matt Deres (talk) 15:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ilan Shimoni -- you can look at the tale of Dick Whittington and his Cat for some quasi-medieval English emphasis on cats, but I doubt the death-penalty thing... AnonMoos (talk) 16:04, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The nearest approach to this that I can think of in early British history is a clause from the Blegywryd Redaction of the Laws of Hywel Dda, a 10th-century king of Deheubarth, laying down a fine for felicide:

The value of a cat which guards the king's barn, if killed or stolen: her head is set down on a clean level floor, and her tail is raised up, and wheat grains are poured over her until they hide the end of her tail. That will be her value.

Given the mention of the king's barn I suppose that represents the amount of wheat she would have saved the king. However Hywel Dda was Welsh, not English, and definitely not pre-Christian. --Antiquary (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's mentioned in History of cats: Laws of Hywel Dda. Killing a cat entailed a fine, which was higher if the cat had guarded the king's barn. See s:The_Laws_of_Howel_the_Good/Translation#cite_ref-325. --212.186.133.83 (talk) 08:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, no legal texts survive from the pagan Anglo-Saxon kings, so the answer must be "nobody knows". Strictly speaking, they were post-Christian as well as pre-Christian. When Saint Augustine of Canterbury arrived to convert the pagans of Kent, the first thing he did was drop into the local church which had been recently renovated. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"When Saint Augustine of Canterbury arrived to convert the pagans of Kent"

Æthelberht of Kent (reigned c. 589 – 616) was not Christian yet, but his wife Bertha was a Frankish princess and Christian from birth. Followng her marriage, Bertha brought with her the bishop Liudhard as her chaplain. "Liudhard helped found ... the first Christian Saxon church in England".

Augustine's boss, Pope Gregory I asked for the help of several Frankish kings and queens in advancing this Christianization mission: Theuderic II, Theudebert II, Chlothar II, and Brunhilda of Austrasia. If Æthelberht denied the mission, he would risk his favorable relations with the Frankish courts. Kent was subordinate to them: "There is some evidence, including Gregory's letters to Frankish kings in support of the mission, that some of the Franks felt that they had a claim to overlordship over some of the southern British kingdoms at this time." Dimadick (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

JSTOR help please - Kenneth O. Morgan: My Histories

Could somebody please access the "Appendix - Main publications by Kenneth O. Morgan" in his autobiography Kenneth O. Morgan: My Histories for me? I need it to check the list on our article Kenneth O. Morgan, and to clarify a bibliographical tangle on another website, and to update my personal list of books needed, thank you. The book is on JSTOR at https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt17w8h53 DuncanHill (talk) 14:51, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The fine folks at WP:RX can help you with such requests. Matt Deres (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

borrow against future income stream?

If someone[4] currently has no income but is scheduled to start a high-paying out-of-town job in 3 months (it's guaranteed, can't really fall through), is there any serious difficulty in getting a bank loan for the equivalent of a few months salary to get settled into the new location? I'm finding the linked story a little bit surprising. Also, if someone is running for office I thought they were allowed to draw a salary from their campaign while they ran? Thanks. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 20:21, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on banking regulations and a given bank's policies about lending. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:56, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt there are regulations preventing it, so it's mostly a question of how banks (or maybe credit card issuers) are likely to react to such a request in practical terms. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 00:25, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You could try calling your local bank and posing the question. But don't be surprised if they also say that they would need more specific information before deciding yes or no. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As far as regulations are concerned, this isn't necessarily impossible. LeBron James#Basketball: Also during his senior year, James was the centerpiece of several controversies. For his 18th birthday, he skirted state amateur bylaws by accepting a Hummer H2 from his mother, who had secured a loan for the vehicle by utilizing LeBron's future earning power as an NBA superstar. (Obviously the loan to James' mother was somewhat riskier than a loan to this congressman-elect, since it would be much easier for James to suffer a freak injury preventing him from playing in the NBA than for her to suffer an event capable of preventing her from assuming office.) So unless banking regulations have changed markedly since 2002, the answer would depend entirely on the policies of the bank with which she consults. Nyttend (talk) 02:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not even if you could prove your glorious future 101%, cause in the worst case - your get your loan, spend it all and a week befor you start your rise to glory, you die in an accident and leave nothing of worth - that is a guaranteed 100% loss for the bank. There for Banks also always want additional security/pawn like your house, car, boat, pension contract. If you dont have that: ..very sorry blah, blah unfortunately blah, blah... --Kharon (talk) 02:39, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kharon, the lenders have actuaries who estimate the probability of something like that so they can price it into the loan. That part is completely routine. It's the reason credit card interest is higher than mortage interest. It's unsecured debt so you have to pay more for it. Question is whether she'd have serious probs getting a credit line large enough to cover first/last/moving/living expenses for a few months in this situation. Nyttend, the issue with Lebron James seems to have been with amateur athletic rules, not banking ones. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 04:10, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that's not what I was going for. My point is that in 2002, it was legal for a bank to lend enough money to buy a Hummer (more than would be necessary to rent a Capitol Hill apartment for a few months) with no security beyond a high schooler's potential earnings as an NBA star. The story was widely publicised; the bank likely wouldn't have gone through with such a transaction had it been illegal (because of the chance of publicity, if nothing else), and had it gotten in trouble with regulators, this would have been reported too. Nyttend (talk) 05:03, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Come to think of it, some types of student loans might fit the premise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:24, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's an established niche market for "inheritance lending" (see https://www.wikihow.com/Get-an-Advance-on-Your-Inheritance etc.) though there doesn't seem to be much about it on Wikipedia. This appears to be similar... AnonMoos (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, a convenience link to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is in order. Nyttend (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. Nyttend, aha, I see your point about Lebron James. Good observation. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trade Between Ancient Egypt and the Shang Dynasty

Did it exist and what was the route used. déhanchements (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sea route from the Red Sea to Hormuz, Seleucid Empire and later Parthia, then Calicut, India and then Quanzhou, China.
Sleigh (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Seleucid empire came into existence about 300 B.C., while the Shang Dynasty fell about 1000 B.C., so there's a 700-year gap. The trick of sailing across the Indian Ocean directly from southwest Arabia to India wasn't yet known in 1000 B.C... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Makut_Makaveli -- the Shang Dynasty was before 1000 B.C., while what William H. McNeill calls "the closure of the Eurasian ecumene" was more like 500 B.C. What that means is that most long distance inter-civilizational trade in 1000 B.C. was of small portable artistic objects, or limited quantities of precious materials, which were filtered through a long series of middlemen (on land, typically traded from tribe to neighboring tribe in a lengthy chain, while sea trade tended to proceed by short coast-hugging hops). AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Copying an answer I previously posted on the OP's talk page because of the page throttling:

Per this article, there was no direct trade or contact between the two, but given the existence of trading networks which included the so-called Silk Road, it would not be surprising if some goods or items were passed from trader to trader (etc.) in either direction between the two. Note the passage in that article:

"Some remnants of what was probably Chinese silk dating from 1070 BCE have been found in Ancient Egypt."

Since the Shang dynasty spanned ca. 1600–1046 BCE, this is an actual example of Shang dynasty material finding its way to Ancient Egypt. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the Silk Road article, you'll see that it wasn't really developed as a regular semi-reliable trade route until the late centuries B.C., so again, there's a gap with respect to 1000 B.C... AnonMoos (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

True, but the OP did not mention the Seleucid dynasty, merely "Ancient Egypt", and "the Silk Road" did not spring fully-fledged into operation, but rather must have been a culminating development of earlier, less robustly established regional inter-trading, per Trade. The point I'm making is merely that while we know of no regular large-scale trade between Ancient Egypt and Shang-dynasty China that was recognised by the authorities of either region, some items and goods on a small scale could and did get transferred from one to the other through intermediate trading transactions. You said essentially the same thing in your first reply to the OP, so I don't think we're disagreeing on anything. (For clarity, my first reply preceded yours, but was made on the OP's Talk page because of the problems then ongoing on this page; I later copied it here to keep the discussion in one place.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 18:34, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-1000BC Egypt and Shang-dynasty China didn't trade with each other in the sense of even being aware of the other's existence (much less having direct contacts). Rather, a few portable and valuable objects may have made their way from one to another through a long series of middlemen. Before 1000 BC, direct long-distance trade only occurred in certain limited areas, and probably did very little to speed up the migration of precious objects from Egypt to China or vice versa. Unfortunately, tossing off references to the Seleucid Empire or the Silk Road tends to obscure this distinction (unless there's a clear accompanying explanation). -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Before 1000 BC, direct long-distance trade only occurred in certain limited areas"

Trade networks were very significant in the Bronze Age: "Trade and industry played a major role in the development of the ancient Bronze Age civilizations. With artifacts of the Indus Valley Civilization being found in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, it is clear that these civilizations were not only in touch with each other but also trading with each other. Early long-distance trade was limited almost exclusively to luxury goods like spices, textiles and precious metals. Not only did this make cities with ample amounts of these products extremely rich but also led to an inter-mingling of cultures for the first time in history."

But then we have the Late Bronze Age collapse (12th century BC), with several players in this trade ceasing to exist or declining, trade routes being disrupted, and literacy itself mostly lost.: "Within a period of forty to fifty years at the end of the thirteenth and the beginning of the twelfth century almost every significant city in the eastern Mediterranean world was destroyed, many of them never to be occupied again." Dimadick (talk) 19:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Mesopotamians certainly traded directly with Dilmun, and during some periods Egyptians mounted expeditions to Punt, but I would tend to doubt whether there were many Mesopotamian or Egyptian traders in the Indus Valley, or Indus Valley traders in Egypt or Mesopotamia. Trade between Egypt and Mesopotamia isn't necessarily all that impressive, considering that during some periods the Egyptian empire in Canaan almost bordered on Mesopotamia. Before 1000 B.C., dependable long-distance direct trade routes were still rather sparsely distributed on the map, compared to what happened later, after "the closure of the Eurasian ecumene"... AnonMoos (talk) 01:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 10

The Lament for Icarus and Ethel Warwick

Was the model Ethel Warwick, used by Draper in The Lament for Icarus, the actress Ethel Warwick for whom we have an article? She would have been about 16 at the time it was painted, which would be about right. If she was, do we know which of the figures she is? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

According to The British Art Journal article "Ethel Warwick (1882-1951), artist's model and actress: The life and career of a real-life Trilby", (The British Art Journal Vol. 3, No. 1 (Autumn 2001), pp. 51-55) she was also an artists model, and did pose for another of Drapers paintings. Oh here we go..she is described as being depicted as a "forlorn sea nymph" for that particular painting. Curdle (talk) 06:42, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea what "a real-life Trilby" is? Okay, I'll answer that myself: see Trilby (novel): "Trilby O'Ferrall, the novel's heroine, is a half-Irish girl working in Paris as an artists' model and laundress; all the men in the novel are in love with her". Alansplodge (talk) 09:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Curdle and Alansplodge (I did know Trilby, but I'm sure many others didn't). I found our Spanish article w:es:Ethel Warwick has considerably more about her career as a model than our own English article, and Commons has lots of pictures from her modelling days. commons:category:Ethel Warwick. DuncanHill (talk) 09:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To address one of your questions (for the benefit of other readers) which you haven't explicitly answered, Duncan, do you concur that Ethel Warwick is depicted as the (young-looking) red-haired nymph at the bottom of the picture, rather than either of the two (more mature) blonde nymphs further up? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I feel sure that she is the nymph at the bottom, but I am not a reliable source for matters of art history and connoisseurship. DuncanHill (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly that ref didnt give any information as to exactly which nymph she was. Draper did paint her a few times though - she was also the face for "The Seamaiden", when she would have been about 14, although a more buxom lady was used for the figure. She also modeled for several other artists as well. She sounds quite interesting actually; I'm waiting on a couple of books from the library which may round out the information a bit more. Curdle (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Does the left hand not know what the right hand is doing?

The Daily Telegraph of 27 October reports a ruling by the Advertising Standards Authority that Smart Energy GB must stop advertising "free" smart meters. This is because they are paid for through consumers' bills. An alternative wording, "at no extra cost", has been agreed. However, in a letter dated three days later my supplier instructed me to "Get a free smart meter". Five days later the Telegraph reported that a comparison website has been accused by the Competition and Markets Authority of breaking the law by telling home insurers that they cannot offer more favourable terms on other comparison websites (the so-called "Favoured Nation clauses"). The Authority made a similar ruling in 2014 but this applied to motor insurance. So can one company continue to make claims that another company has been told not to?

I won't be complying with the directive, and neither will another reader, who said in a letter to the editor that his supplier had sent him unsolicited an appointment for an installation. It gave the option to "reschedule" but not to "cancel". So he says he has told the company that he will not permit the engineers to enter his premises. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 18:29, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The letter you got from your supplier might have just not been updated to reflect the advertising ruling. No idea about the comparison site, and we can't give legal advice here if that's what you were seeking. If you don't want a smart meter in your home (e.g. for privacy reasons), I'd say just tell them so. How they are advertised seems like a side issue. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call it a side issue. Two points:

Is it morally justified to pressure a consumer into taking a service (s)he doesn't want and
Should companies be permitted to lie to sell their products (e.g. "this is the last one remaining" or "we can't hold this price")

Whether it is or not (and as it happens I too am currently refusing SSE's similar attempts to foist a smart meter on me), the Wikipedia reference desks are not the place to debate the issue, get legal advice about it, or seek affirmation of your views (with which I do not disagree). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 18:49, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You could try rescheduling for some far future date, e.g. the next millennium. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about the UK, but in many cases in the U.S., if the utility company has the right to come onto your property to read the meter, then it also has the right to come onto your property to repair or replace the meter (which is actually owned by the utility company). In my town, the city-owned utility replaced ordinary meters with "smart meters" fairly quickly, without much advanced warning or controversy afterwards. However, in California, a significant number of PG&E customers had higher electric bills after smart-meters were installed, and the company was not able to address these complaints in any useful way, leading to a long and bitter controversy there over smart-meter installation... AnonMoos (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 11

Buddhist Monk

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I have read many years ago about a Buddhist monk who excessively self-tortured himself and apparently went so far that he even hanged at least a part of his (while he was still alive!) innards on a tree "to let them dry". This shocked most of the eyewitnesses of the time. I do not recall the name of the man, does someone of you know the monk`s name?

Thank you for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A quick search only brought up the practice of Kaihōgyō by Japanese Tendai monks, which entails a thousand day hike around Mount Hiei. Not mentioned in our article but quoted by several sources is that those who drop-out "must commit suicide by hanging or disembowelment". [6] Alansplodge (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few bigger "believe communities" but each shrine, monastery or school teaches its own interpretation of Buddhism. Actually most religions have big local distinctions, even if they have an organizational center and Headmaster claiming a region or more bound to his interpretation. Dalai Lama is especially interesting for your Question because some Dalai Lamas in the past where horrible bloody dictators and warlords. Famous Vlad the Impaler was officially an orthodox Christian that allegedly had a horrible idea how to act as the shepherd of his subjects, christian rulers commonly strive to be. --Kharon (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nitpicking: Vlad the Impaler was a Catholic, and he's today remembered as a great historical figure in Romania since he achived major victories over the Ottomans, who weren't exactly opposed to impaling victims themselves. What earned him the notoriety was probably that he used the same gruesome tactics in Transylvania in the war for the Hungarian throne, as impaling was back then in that area considered something mostly for infidels/heretics only. 93.136.83.252 (talk) 00:53, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]} Vlad the Impaler#Imprisonment in Hungary suggests he may have converted to Catholicism after his imprisonment in Hungary before his third rule which was after he had already impaled a bunch of people. He was definitely friendly and received the support of Catholics for a long time e.g. our article says he claimed he broke peace with the sultan "for the preservation of Christianity and the strengthening of the Catholic faith". I'm not sure if it's clear that he converted, I'm having trouble finding good RS because a lot of stuff is talking about his brother and the rest is non RS. Some of the non RS say he definitely converted because his marriage (I presume to a Catholic) was documented [7]. On the other hand some other often more wacky sources say stuff like it's all a lie by the Catholics or some such to defame our great Orthodox hero, or that he was born Catholic and converted to Orthodox and then converted back, or simply that was an evil Catholic so shouldn't be an Orthodox hero (but often don't say if he was Catholic for life). E.g. [8] or [9] or the 2nd reply in the Quora thread. Well even some of the 'converted to Catholicism' ones are like that e.g. [10], one reason I'm reluctant to entirely trust all this converted stuff. Our article claims without a direct source that Vlad II Dracul was Orthodox. Nil Einne (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Christian rulers commonly strive to be the shepherds of their subjects? Exactly which alternate universe's history are you taking that idea from? --Khajidha (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What you describe sounds like an extreme form of Sokushinbutsu. That article and its references may be of use to you. Wymspen (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Buddha/Zarathustra Works

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen

I am looking for a full online version of the Zend-Avesta, the holy book of Zarathustra and the original words (or the clostest possible) of Buddha. I speak some German and Spanish, so online versions in these languages would not be difficult for me to read. I have searched with the help of Google, but was unable to find a satisfying result.

Thank you very much for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:8CC0:8297:EFBC:CD56 (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some parts of the Sutta Pitaka of the Pali Canon presumably fairly closely reflect the thinking of the Buddha and his personal disciples. AnonMoos (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one [11]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And another [12]. 86.157.229.93 (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 12

Pre-World War I election maps

I know that the English Wikipedia has maps of all U.S. presidential elections (including those from before World War I) and that the German Wikipedia has maps of pre-World War I Imperial German Reichstag elections. However, are there any other maps of pre-World War I elections on Wikipedia? If so, where and for which elections? Futurist110 (talk) 23:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have quite a lot of election maps (commons:Category:Election maps by country), although I'm not sure there's a good way to find the ones that have pre-WWI maps aside from clicking on all of them individually. (I know there are pre-WWI maps for Canada, at least.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! Indeed, your link here is very helpful to me and thus I thank you for posting it here. Futurist110 (talk) 03:55, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 13

US Democratic Party primaries and midterm elections 2018 results by counties

Other than CNN, MSNBC, New York Times and Washington Post, are there any other websites that shows the following primaries and midterm elections:

Florida Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Georgia Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Maryland Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Idaho Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, New York Democratic Party gubernatorial primary, Vermont Democratic Party gubernatorial primary and Iowa Democratic Party gubernatorial primary and Texas US Senate election, 2018 between Beto O'Rourke and Ted Cruz, Wisconsin US Senate election, 2018 between Tammy Baldwin and Leah Vukmir, Florida gubernatorial election, 2018; Georgia gubernatorial election, 2018; Maryland gubernatorial election, 2018; Vermont gubernatorial election, 2018; and Idaho gubernatorial election, 2018? I want to see which counties they got the most votes from. Also, I am interested in these races and primaries because most of the contenders participating in these events were endorsed by Our Revolution. Please and thank you. Donmust90 (talk) 00:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 00:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Donmust90: I suggest going to the Secretary of State's website for each state you are interested in. Most should have the per-county vote information you are interested in. For example, here is a page for the Florida election data: [13]. The file it gives you is a text file, you can see the democratic governor results per county. RudolfRed (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Prosperity theology in Islam and Judaism

Has anything similar to prosperity theology ever developed within Islam and Judaism? 73.239.223.56 (talk · contribs)

It sounds like you're talking about Predestination and Predestination in Islam. This item[14] says it is not accepted in Judaism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No they'd mean something like Prosperity theology. Another weird thing Trump seems to espouse but known mainly in South Korea and some African nations I believe. Dmcq (talk) 11:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I would say it's huge in the US. Any televangelist with a megachurch is a proponent of the Prosperity Gospel. Predestination is a fairly different thing, although it can be related (if you think you're predestined to be rich). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:40, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah you see lots of media reports e.g. [15] [16] [17] as well as this well known John Oliver segment [18] which is discussed somewhat in this article Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. I assume the in relative terms, they're a tiny percentage of American christians but I don't know if there's anywhere that isn't true. Nil Einne (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is one of the theories of Calvinism that you can tell whether someone is one of "the elect" by how well they're doing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:03, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all; this would have broken down in Calvin's lifetime, as many early Calvinist clergymen were sent to France, executed as heretics, and later celebrated as martyrs. In more recent centuries, it wouldn't make much sense, as various incompatible figures (early LDS leaders like Brigham Young, leaders of oneness Pentecostal megachurches, atheists who are really wise investors, etc.) sometimes do really well, and as their theologies are absolutely irreconcilable with Calvinism (plurality of gods, Jesus-only unitarianism, and non-theism, respectively, each of which rejects Calvinist theology of God and vice versa), "doing well = elect" breaks down because Calvinists and any of the others can't both be right. Nyttend (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see various mentions of Islamic prosperity theology [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] (see [24] for info on the organisation discussed) but I don't think these sources are really using prosperity theology the same way. What they seem to be referring to are proponents of capitalism and economic advancement from an Islamic POV or that there's nothing wrong with being prosperous or it's even nobel for it to be a goal. So there may be some aspects which are very similar. But from what I can tell, they don't include much the elements which give prosperity theology a bad name i.e. the people will be blessed if they give the rich preacher money to buy their 4th jet or buy a larger mansion aspect. Possibly they would include some of the other criticised aspects e.g. accumulate a house and other possessions even if you can't afford it. Note that as I understand it, zakat generally recognises a niṣāb or minimum level of wealth before it's expected, and while there's obviously no agreement on the amount this is, I presume it means there tends to be a difference with tithing among prosperity theology proponents who AFAIK often asked for tithes regardless of how poor the people are teaching it will benefit them in the long run due to god's blessings. Nil Einne (talk) 17:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The central idea of prosperity theology is the idea that the earthly evidence of whether or not you are properly obeying God is your own earthly prosperity; that is if you are following God's law, the rewards will be evident because you're prosperous; if you are not, God will punish you by making you less prosperous; if you aren't prosperous it must be because you aren't following God's law close enough. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, there's some criticism of this in the text of the Bible, i.e. the Book of Job, one of the themes of which is that you can't use your situation on earth as a judgement of your place in heaven; whether or not you are prosperous or not isn't really rooted in whether you are Godly enough. I'm not as familiar with Islamic tradition on this. --Jayron 32 17:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Camel and needle's eye

Isn't there a New Testament text which says that it easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle [the narrow gate in Jerusalem] than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God? 2A02:C7D:CAA6:A200:4471:4D17:DD5C:D292 (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is: Matthew 19 comes to mind, it's also in Mark and Luke IIRC. Matthew 19 also says "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth...instead store up treasures in Heaven" --Jayron 32 18:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The thing about the gate in Jerusalem is just some nonsense dreamed up by Prosperity theologians (in its most absurd form, the reasoning is that if a camel can fit through it, a man easily could, so rich men can easily get into heaven). The parable is Jesus and the rich young man. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The standard interpretation taught to me at school (Methodist, though with a Baptist RE teacher) was that it was almost impossible for a camel to fit through this supposed imaginatively named gate, and thus it would be very difficult (though not impossible) for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I've also read a suggestion (which I can not corroborate, though it makes a lot of sense to me) that the word 'camel' (supposedly kamelos in some Greek original) was an erroneous reading of 'cord' (supposedly kemilos – Koine Greek-literate editor needed to confirm or refute!): the analogy of trying to thread a cord through a needle's eye seems much more appropriate. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 00:33, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not buying it. The literal interpretation of an actual camel and an actual needle is much more in line with Jesus' penchant for hyperbole (i.e. remove the plank from your own eye) to drive home a point, and his emphasis on the need of his followers to abandon all of their earthly connections, including wealth, family, obligations (let the dead bury the dead, etc.) in order to follow him completely seems more internally consistent. The whole "needle gate" thing feels like bullshit worked in later to make it feel more attractive a belief system to potential converts, but such an interpretation seems out of character with the rest of the message of the synoptic gospels. I've heard such interpretations as well, however I've never seen evidence that the "eye of the needle" gate was a thing recorded outside of such a supposed text. It just has the feel of an ex-post-facto thing. --Jayron 32 00:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aaand I now see in the Eye of a needle article that Cyril of Alexandria asserted the camel/cord theory in the 5th Century AD, though with different spellings to what I have doubtless mis-remembered :-).

I think we have to be very careful in arguing the interpretation of Jesus' supposed words. There are no contemporaneous records of them, and those we know of seem to have been orally transmitted and only collated in writing some decades after his death, in documents that the "gospels" apparently drew on while adding imaginative narrative framing. There's a lot of scope there for accidental rephrasings and mistranslations: did the 1st-century Aramaic or Koine Greek (depending on his original auditors) word he used really mean the same as "beam" or "plank" in modern English. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[unindent] St. Hilary of Poitiers interprets it figuratively: But in the beginning of our book, we have suggested that the pagans are signified by the camel under the guise of John's [the Baptist's] clothing...the barbarity of the pagans is being tamed to obey heavenly instruction. They are entering the very narrow way of the kingdom of heaven, namely, the "needle", which is the preaching of the new Word. [Page 207 of OCLC 861793400.] In the confessional Protestant context in which my life has always been spent, the passage has been taken literally: the rich have absolutely no way to enter by themselves (just as the camel has absolutely no way to go through a needle), and because period Judaism expected the rich to have the best chance of salvation (as they could afford ritual purity, all the sacrifices, etc., unlike the poorer classes), this implies that nobody can live purely enough to reach heaven. Jesus is therefore interpreted as indicating that reaching heaven depends on God's action, i.e. imputed righteousness is necessary. Nyttend (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Middle Age calendars

Hello,

The History of calendars has a page from the Bedford psalter. Each day here and in and other Middle Age calendars shows five columns, the first contains some figures, then it's a letter for the day of the week from A to G, the count down to calendae, nones and idae, with their abbr. : nn, ide, kl in col. 4, and at last the feasts and octaves. What do those figures in the first col. mean ?

An example of sequence in Jan. (Fecamp psalter) is : 3, 0, 11, 0, 19, 8, 0, 16, 5, 0, 8, 2, 0, 10, 0, 18, 7, 0, 15, 4, 0, 12, 1, 0, 9, 0, 17, 6, 0, 13, 3. Thank you for an advice, even if it's only fun. --methodood (talk) 16:05, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See This video. They are Golden numbers, used to calculate the date of Easter in any given year. --Jayron</sp1an>32 16:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you find "xiij" and "xiiij" confusing, see J#History. Nyttend (talk) 00:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The lunar month will start January date with the 1 one year, the date with the 2 the next and so on till 19 then 1 the year after that. Of course that's not a guarantee, even at the place and time the Golden number is most accurate small eyesight differences or good vs. fair humidity for a cloudless night of that calendar date could be the difference between the golden number being on the right day or not. The golden number doesn't work anymore though because it's a very simple calendar that's too slow and after over 20,000 lunar months without "unleap" days it's about 0 months and 4.X days late. For comparison the youngest naked eye Moon was 0.6472 days old with extreme eyesight (only naked eye counts for religious calendars), 2 day old crescents are easy if not too high latitude and 3 day old crescents are naked eye in the middle of the day at sea level even in the humid East US just by hiding the Sun with your hand. Only 2.35 days difference so over 4 days error is huge. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 15

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom (regency) after the end of World War I?

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom--or regency--after the end of World War I (as in, after Bela Kun's Communist regime in Hungary was overthrown)? Futurist110 (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, why didn't Hungary become a republic after the fall of Communism in 1919 like it did after the fall of Communism in 1989? Futurist110 (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just a guess, but after three short-lived republics rising and falling within a single year (the First Hungarian Republic, the Hungarian Soviet Republic, and a days-long restoration of the First Republic), with their accompanying Red Terror, White Terror and Romanian occupation, I should think that anything savouring of boring old Habsburg stability must have sounded pretty good. --Antiquary (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why are Russian Jews by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia?

Based on the data here: Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility -- Russian Jews are by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia. My question is this--why exactly is this the case? Futurist110 (talk) 03:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think you have the answer and are looking for the question. Once we know that Jews in Russian have the least amount of childs in a household, that is itself an answer. This is like asking, once we know someone is a virgin, why is so and so a virgin. We already have the conclusions. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]

I mean why exactly do Russian Jews have the least amount of children among all of the ethnic groups in Russia. There has to be some reason(s) for this. Futurist110 (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because they don't want as many? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But why? Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's not really a useful answer, and seems needlessly abrupt. The null hypothesis would presumably be that all ethnicities are equally fertile (or as near to that as random variation would allow). If a particular group is notably different in this respect, then there is presumably a reason. And if the immediate reason is "they don't want as many", then there is presumably a reason for that too, whether cultural or geographic or whatever. I don't see anything wrong with someoneone wandering why? Iapetus (talk) 09:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The comment by Шурбур below seems a reasonable possibility. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Median age: 61.1. This will make it slightly hard to give birth. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That high median age is a result of them having few babies, though. Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How does it compare with childbirth rates in other countries? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, South Korea's total fertility rate is probably lower. Futurist110 (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think if fertility of 1 ethnic group differs by country, that would be more meaningful. For example, aren't fertility of Jews in Russia going to be the same for other countries? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Jewish women are the most urbanized (98 %) and educated (65 % having a higher education) in Russia. Шурбур (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this data from the 2002 or 2010 Russian census? Also, which ethnic groups in Russia are the next most urbanized and educated? Futurist110 (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An awful lot of Russian Jews emigrated, some to Israel, some via Israel and some elsewhere, after the collapse of Communism. 1990s Post-Soviet aliyah has some information on this. I can't lay my hands on RS but I've definitely heard that those who chose to stay behind had an older demographic. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:10, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is RS? Also, it is worth noting that Russian Jews were in demographic decline ever since the 1960s (the exodus of Jews from the Soviet Union only started in the 1970s on a large scale). Futurist110 (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is RS? See Wikipedia:RS. Alansplodge (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Futurist110 (talk) 22:31, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there was a similar phase with former german emigrants in russia who where invited back to West-Germany in the 1980-1990 with a simmilar result. It was mostly young people who used this and the older mostly prefered to stay in russia. So i guess that ethnic group with german roots showed a similar low reproduction rate after that. --Kharon (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The data in my link above (Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility) shows that Russian Germans were, on average, much younger and much more fertile than Russian Jews were in 2002. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Soviet Jewish Demographic Dynamics: An Analysis of Recent Data [Revised as of October 9, 2018] confirms that mass migration to Western Europe, North America and particularly Israel is the major factor.

I'll take a look at this link. I've read some of what Mark Tolts wrote before and I wonder if I'll find any new information in this article. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, Why Fertility Levels Vary between Urban and Rural Areas? says (quoting research in Finland): "For many countries, fertility levels tend to differ by education level, with the lowest for university educated individuals and the highest for individuals with only compulsory education".

Makes sense considering that studying at a university takes up a lot of one's time and one's money--leaving less time and money available for child-rearing. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A History of the Jewish Community in Russia (and former USSR) by Igal Lapidus says: "Russian Jewry is almost exclusively urbanized... Today, Jews are integrated into most sectors of Russian society and economy, and their level of education and standard of living are higher than those prevalent in the general population".

Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One would think that the greater standard of living (and possibly wealth) of Russian Jews would allow them to have more rather than less children, though. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Allowing them to doesn't mean they want to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. As a general trend in Demography, increased wealth in a society usually results in people having fewer children, because:

(a) fewer children will die (because of their society's improved healthcare) so they don't have to have more to offset such anticipated deaths;

(b) their personal wealth will to some extent offset the need to have their children (grandchildren, etc.) support them in their old age, so they need fewer;

(c) the financial support measures characteristic of wealthier societies (personal and state pensions, other welfare services) similarly offset the need for support by offspring; and

(d) the cost of raising each individual child becomes relatively greater.

In a rapidly developing, previously impoverished society, (a) can lead to the Demographic trap because people's expectations lag behind rapid improvements in healthcare, until the Demographic transition has matured. This however does not apply to the society and ethnic group which you (Futurist110) are considering.

As a purely personal conjecture, I would hazard that the history of persecution of Jews in Russia until quite recent times (e.g. within my own lifetime) might discourage people from having children who would run the risk of suffering its potential renewal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 00:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. law question - hotels.

Are hotels in the U.S. allowed to charge price based by country of origin. So if the Euro dollar is worth more than the American dollar, can make it more expensive base price, and if came from a 3rd world country, base cheaper price. I know the computers can analyze formulas, but my question is if it's legal. We already know that universities can do that, International students pay a higher tuition. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]

National origin discrimination is illegal in the United States. State universities typically charge all out-of-state students a higher tuition (since these are funded primarily by taxes paid by state residents), which includes international students. Since that policy is based on state of residence and not country of origin, it's fine. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I thought International students pay an even-higher base tuition than out-of-state tuition. So as far as I know, so it's 3-levels of prices: in state, out of state, and International. And some 2-year colleges in a city, have a 4-level tuition: in city, outside of city but in state, out of state but in country, and out of country. So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels? Your comment on national-origin discrimination, I already know it's true in terms of hiring someone, and selling houses to someone. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]

"So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels?" Hotels are not usually supported by the taxes of residents, unlike public colleges. --Xuxl (talk) 14:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

National origin discrimination is generally prohibited under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for public accommodations (and employment, programs or activities which receive federal funds and some others) which would include hotels etc. It's also covered under several other areas of federal law. However I'm fairly sure there are areas which the CRA and other laws do not cover. I'm not sure if it's even tested if the CRA applies to providers of services or products over the internet for example. It has been tested for the ADA [25] [26] but the definition of public accommodations is wider there. I think the case for the CRA is a lot less clear [27] [28] [29]. The last link may be of particular interest since it seems to mention Airbnb. State law may cover additional things but of course, that wouldn't necessarily be US wide (unless every jurisdiction has such laws). BTW, about education I believe it's complicated. If the educational institution receives federal funds then the CRA would likely apply. Perhaps in some cases it may be a public accommodation but I'm not convinced it's so clear cut if the educational institute receives zero federal funds, especially again I suspect, online only educational institutions. Note that many legal challenges to things like affirmative action have been based on the Equal Protection Clause which will not apply to non citizens although AFAIK most of these have been to institutions who receive federal funds anyway. These may be of interest Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke Grutter v. Bollinger [30] [31] [[32]] [33] [34]. Note that although the CRA also applies to schools (and I'm not sure what the definition of schools is) this primarily relates to segregation. Nil Einne (talk) 16:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Something to keep in mind about the Fourteenth Amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you're right on that. However that only directly applies to government/public universities. For private ones, the requirements are AFAIK held to come from equal protection clause via the CRA (or otherwise via the reception of government funds, federal or state) [35] [36]. For institutions who chose not to receive such funds (which is very rare but is possible), it's again not clear to me that the CRA or other areas of law will apply especially for internet only institutions. I'd also note that while these may apply to US citizens and lawful permanent residents, I'm not convinced there's case law on how it interacts with non citizens who are not lawful permanent residents even those lawfully in the US, especially those with F visas. While you likely still couldn't discriminate based on national origin per se, it's possible a compelling could be made that discrimination based solely on long term residency status (rather than national origin) could be made, since there's no guarantee they could work in the US after graduation e.g. [37]. The debates surrounding affirmative action show that it's far from simple. Some of the earlier sources also reflect such complexity even where national origin or race does directly arise. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 AFAIK mostly only affects employment. Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the situation with colleges and universities gets trickier, perhaps in part because there is no constitutional right to go to any particular college. There are generally more applicants than there are openings, and that's where affirmative action issues arise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s get back to what was asked about... hotels. The price of a hotel room can fluctuate wildly... depending on demand. The same room can be very expensive one month, and reasonably cheap the next. Even the day of the week when you want to reserve the room can impact pricing. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Happens all the time and is generally legal. See Price discrimination. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I heard that some places discriminate prices on-line by what operating system you're using, that Mac users are more likely to be richer than Windows users and therefore willing to pay more. The only example I was told is airline companies. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]
- Yes but the fact remains, all evidence suggests they cannot normally do to for reasons of national origin. To do so runs a strong risk of violating the CRA. This suggests no decent US hotel is going to openly admit to doing so. Note however it's likely to be less clear cut for currency conversions. If a guest chooses to pay in Euro, they could potentially offer a terrible rate if they wanted to. There is probably still some risk of national origin discrimination, but it could be reduced by smart management, for example, making sure you always advertise and advise customs of both prices. As the Trivago person likes to say, different prices may be advertised in different places. I'm suspect the case is a lot less clear cut if someone advertises a different price in a German travel magazine than they do in US radio advertisement. But by the same token, I strongly suspect any competent management team is going to say they did so because of the specific audiences of the different venues, which had nothing to do with national origin (or race etc). Nil Einne (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - BTW, there's also the complexity of how the CRA interacts with people who aren't US citizens or permanent residents and are currently located outside the US. But still, it seems a risky strategy considering you could also affect US citizens. On a related note, this specifically notes that airlines can't practice price discrimination for reasons of national origin [38]. Nil Einne (talk) 03:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, hotels quote a room rate based on the dates you want to stay and the type of room you prefer before they have any information about your identity. What are they going to do, say "I'm sorry, but we charge Lithuanians 11% more" when they find out who you are? As for foreign exchange rates, U.S. hotels normally accept payment in U.S. dollars. Exchange of foreign currency is handled either by credit card processors or those currency exchange booths you see at airports. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

new Internet cat meme

A couple months ago, I discovered a new Internet cat meme on YouTube. The cat's name is Ollie. He resides in the United Kingdom. He's also been proclaimed "The Polite Cat", due to his human-like facial expression. What can you tell me about Ollie the Polite Cat? (And shouldn't there be an article about him?)142.255.69.73 (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus seems to be that this is just a cat with a photoshopped expression. There are articles about it (e.g. [39]), but thankfully not on Wikipedia.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't Know Your Meme. There likely isn't enough notability to have an entry here. †dismas†|^(talk) 21:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See Media Hype. Many just live for a few days - like Tamagotchis... --Kharon (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You may wish to check Ollie the Polite Cat out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr and Imgur. On those social media pages, you may find more about Ollie the Polite Cat. Hopefully, there may be enough information to create an article on Wikipedia.2604:2000:7104:2F00:D863:4B1F:1999:7426 (talk) 03:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of those social media platforms is a reliable source for establishing the notability of a topic on Wikipedia. Not a single one of them. No matter how much you hope, IP editor, no acceptable article can be built on such a flimsy basis. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:35, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Geography + language

When it comes to this map ([40]), is there any way to know which subsaharan language on the above map has the largest geographic distribution? If so, are there any citations corroborating this? At first glance, Somali looks the largest, but I'm not sure. HUZIXIISD (talk) 04:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities