User talk:Pigsonthewing/Archive 10

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Noticed that you subdivided some sections on the Egdbaston page. I don't have any problems with this at all, I merged them yesterday as each section was ridiculously short by itself and looked rubbish. However I have expanded them so it doesn't look so bad now. The question I have is whether or not I should have merged them to begin with. Was it out of personal preference that you seperated them or a Wikipedia regulation? Thanks in advance for your answer! Cls14 11:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

There are no "regualations" ;-) I made the changes for stylistic reasons, and to facilitate links, from other web pages, to, for example, Andy Mabbett 11:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Thanks for that. Cls14 12:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

General Comment[edit]

Dear Andy

You have edited several pages of interest to me recently. With the exception of the issue of categorization on which I believe you won the day on the grounds of concensus your edits are helpful and improve the articles concerned. It is possible that I may have arrived at my first opinion of you rather hastily. Keep at it.

Yours Faithfully Martin Cordon 17:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

George Edward Lodge[edit]

I don't understand the footnote (1) on George Edward Lodge, referring to the seventh son of a seventh son. The footnote just says Savory, and does not look like a reference. Can you please explain, or fix the reference?--Cotinis 23:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It refer to the work by Savory, cited earlier. Perhaps it should say "Savory, op. cit." ? Andy Mabbett 23:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see it now. For this short an article, I'm not sure footnotes really add that much--a reference section, I feel, suffices. However, I really do not understand Wikipedia reference conventions. When I've used specific references in the text, I've just used Harvard references (Jones et al. 1998, etc.), but that's because I can't understand the templates. No big deal at any rate. Cotinis 05:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Midland Metro Route Map template[edit]

Nice! I like it a lot.

How about this for a very early draft of the "fancy template" I was talking about on Template:West Midlands railway stations? Fingerpuppet 18:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good; what about Sandwell & Dudley and Show Hill/ Moor Street in the "main line" bit, though? Andy Mabbett 19:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've moved those mentioned from the "other" section into the "main line" section - though I'm not convinced by Snow Hill or (especially) Moor Street being thought of as "main line" in the same way as the others! Fingerpuppet 17:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Script help needed, please[edit]

How do I use User:Quarl/monobook.js ?

hi. You can find your own monobook at Special:Mypage/monobook.js. Just paste the content of the other monobook into your page and clear your browser cache, and that should do it! I hope that helps! -- lucasbfr talk 21:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, but that doesn't seem to work, and doesn't look right. Andy Mabbett 22:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Go to User:Pigsonthewing/monobook.js, copy the text from Quarl's monobook to your monobook. And, empty your cache from your browser. Real96 23:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I did, See link, above. Andy Mabbett 23:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If you are having any trouble installing scripts, go to installing scripts. Real96 23:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding to top or second of an also see list is poor form[edit]

Adding a link to your article at the top or second position of an also see, especially when there is a weak link, is poor form. Please place your additions at the end of the list next time, or on the talk page. - Davandron | Talk 17:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Andy Mabbett 17:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry; my mistake. We get lots of little brand-new articles who add their name in the top or second place position of Also See to boost visibility for their article. Thanks for restoring it to alphabetical. - Davandron | Talk 14:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

hCard in people infoboxes[edit]

How would adding this information to infoboxes be helpful? The only fields that I see applying are fn, bday, and url. --PhantomS 19:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It would make them (more) parsable, indexable and searchable by machines. You may be right about three fields (actually, pictures, too), but that's still useful. Can you assist? Andy Mabbett 19:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
For machine parsing, we already have {{Persondata}}. I may assist if I can find "a best practices approach that gives at least as much as that template could. --PhantomS 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by "a best practices approach", how can I help? I'm not sure how many user agents can access persondata, but uFs are beginning well established (see the Operator extension for Firefox, which is likely to be incorporated into the next build); and anything that adds semantic meaning (especially with relatively minimal effort or overhead) has to be good! Incidentally there are also proposals for adding 'Date of Death' to hCard. We also have the "nickname" attribute for Cary Grant/ Archibald Leach types; and a "note" field. Incidentally, hCard (and other microformats) are supposed, unlike persondata, to be for data visible on the page. Andy Mabbett 19:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
IMO, it needs birth name and death date attributes to be that useful. Birth and death places would also be beneficial. As for Cary Grant, the article is Cary Grant, while the birth name is Archibald Leach. Birth name is not always filled in because it doesn't always change for actors.--PhantomS
Looking at person data, if there was an alternative names attribute, that part might work. However, I don't see any field for death. --PhantomS 19:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here; yes, there are some fields in persondata not in hCard; but vice versa also. It doesn't matter whether the article is called CG or AL; I was merely pointing out that there are fields for both in hCard. As I said, there are *proposals* to add date-of-death. Andy Mabbett 20:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
After thinking it over, I was actually just about to remove my two previous posts and simply state that it needs to have a death date property to be useful. If you could give me the markup to use, including the proposed death date markup, I'll see what I can do with it. --PhantomS 20:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


Thank you. The markup is listed at [1]. Since the infobox is resented as a table, it makes sense to mark up . For birthday, class="bday"needs to be in the format yyyymmdd , so that's usually 25 December 1965, but I know that WikiMedia strips abbr tags. I might be best to put the ISO format below the "human" format, and hide it with CSS? There for date of death nothing is decided, so I suggest you mirror "bday" and use "dday". It can always be changed later. Use <img class="photo">for the picture. Cheers, Andy Mabbett20:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Coordinates and hCard miroformat on Infobox UK station[edit]

Hi, please see my comments at Template talk:Infobox UK station. Regards. Adambro 20:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Something for a bored moment[edit]

Andy, Whitemoor Haye (of Woolly Rhino fame) is in your part of the world, isn't it? I've created the stubbiest of stubs about the place - do you know anything else that's worth adding? I seem to remember that it is quite birdy though not sure of specifics. Cheers SP-KP 17:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Bored? Me? Happy to oblige. Well worth a visit! Andy Mabbett 18:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

EBCC atlas[edit]

We're clunking into each other a bit, aren't we? :-) Hopefully I've managed to keep all of your additions, and vice versa. I'm off to get some food now, so you can have it to yourself for a bit. Cheers SP-KP 19:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought we were just collaborating. Sorry if I caused you edit conflicts - I saw none. I'm looking forward to ornithological atlas and grid-square distribution maps ;-) Andy Mabbett 19:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
No probs - I've checked the edit history and I'm pretty sure all of your additions & mine have made it into the current version. I've fair-use-ified the image page btw. SP-KP 19:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - how did you do that? Is there a template? Andy Mabbett 20:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I just copied it from Image:HANZAB V5 cover.jpg SP-KP 20:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Horizontal lists[edit]

Is there a "wiki" method to mark-up horizontal lists, like that at A34 road#Former route, so that they're rendered as an HTML list, styled horizontally? Andy Mabbett 17:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. A limited subset of HTML is accepted here, so you could try writing the HTML for it to see if it works; otherwise, there probably isn't a way. Hope that helps! --ais523 17:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. It's not a matter of HTML, but CSS, but I have no idea how to apply that to a list, or to a template for a list, in WikiCode. Where can I ask for further advice? Andy Mabbett 12:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
You can try WP:VPT or #wikipedia/#wikimedia-tech on Xiner (talk, email) 13:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Will try VPT. Thank you. Andy Mabbett 13:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

UK stations infobox[edit]

Hi, would you mind taking a look at my suggestion here? Thanks, --RFBailey 19:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Pete Townshend - "soft-ban" on fixated editors[edit]

I am hereby banning SqueakBox (talk · contribs), Davidpatrick (talk · contribs) and Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs) from editing this article; I am implementing here a "soft-ban" - as the article history shows the edit war exists only between these three participants, and thus the article may be unprotected in the event of these users being banned from editing. Upon the event of these users violating this soft-ban, administrators may, at their discretion, implement blocks from editing Wikipedia in enforcement of this. This is made in line with ArbCom precedent that editors who perform fixated edit warring upon an article may be banned from editing that article, such as in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Regarding The Bogdanov Affair. Should anyone have any questions or concerns relating to this, please do contact me. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Edits to Template:Chase Line[edit]

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. In the future, it is recommended that you use the preview button before you save; this helps you find any errors you have made, and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history. Thanks again.  – Tivedshambo (talk) 22:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You can remove minor edits from how you see both article histories and "recent changes" in your "my preferences" dialogue. Andy Mabbett 23:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Species microformat[edit]

I've left some comments on it already, but I'm no taxonomist really. Thanks. —Pengo 16:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


Please be very careful with reverting as you did here. If you need help, try looking into Help:Reverting. A complete revert was not only unnecessary, it could have swayed the discussion by removing important information - this is not acceptable. A partial revert would have been the solution here, keeping in the supporting information and explanation I added. The changes I made came about due to a Edit conflict. Please, familiarise yourself with reverting and in the future, maybe you ought to assume better faith. Good day. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 14:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, you over-writing of pre-existing votes was unacceptable. Andy Mabbett 14:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Helpme tag[edit]

Please do not keep re-adding the {{helpme}} tag on to an article talk page as you keep doing with Talk:Walsall St Pauls bus station, it is to be used on User talk Pages and should not be used on article talk pages, again I have removed the template for these reasons. Thank you - [User:Tellyaddict|Telly]]addict 15:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Birds Page Editing[edit]

Pigsonthewing, don't delete the links that are not spam, please. You're deleting saying that is spam, when that is not spam and is very relevant to who want to know more about birds and love them. JonixK 00:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing, the help page says a site cannot be relevant to wikipedia if is all propose is to be commercial or wrapped in ads. The link you are deleting is not the case and is very relevant to the birds page. JonixK 01:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


Hi Pigsonthewing,

the Template:flatlist template that you have created causes problems in that the vertical bar splits up multi-word items when the item wraps on to the next line. Looking at the Warwickshire article Mary Arden's House wraps to

| Mary Arden's |
House |

with the vertical bar appearing mid item.

Keith D 12:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Not here, on three different browsers (Firefox, IE7, Opera, under WinXp. What are you using (it seems to be broken!)? Discussion is at MediaWiki talk:Common.css#CSS for horizontal lists, BTW - the template only applies the CSS style referred to there.

Andy Mabbett 12:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I am using IE6 on WinXP. I have not seen the discussions on the subject.
Keith D 12:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


Wouldn't it be straightforward to edit Geolinks-start (on which nearly all of the Geolinks templates rely) to include the new template and then the problem wouldn't be a problem?

--Scotthatton 14:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Possibly; I have no idea. Suggest you raise it on template talk:Coord. Andy Mabbett 14:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

User:SatyrBot/Current project[edit]

I've set some stuff up on the bot's current project page. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Science and Innovation associated with Birmingham[edit]

Hello, thanks for your comments here science and invention in Birmingham. I have made a suggestion on the talk page, thank you. Nick Boulevard 09:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Locate me templates[edit]

I have changed these to use "date=" syntax which is the way cleanup tempaltes are going. Any labelled with the old syntax will be picked up and changed by SB, so no worries. Rich Farmbrough, 10:50 3 April 2007 (GMT).

Thank you. Andy Mabbett 10:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Input requested[edit]

Hi. I'm planning to spend a bit of time in the next couple of weeks or so trying to improve Slender-billed Curlew, with the aim of bringing it up to GA status. Any suggestions you have would be much appreciated at the article's talk page. Thanks SP-KP 22:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can come up with. Meanwhile, please try to find me one, so I can do some OR! Andy Mabbett 22:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


FYI: discussion on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#LocateMe_bot. Tyrenius 00:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Is it really NPA to suggest you're enthusiastic & in good faith ;) --Tagishsimon (talk)
Let me know if this gets resolved. If I an help, I will. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion invitation[edit]

I've created a new discussion page at Template talk:West Midlands railway stations/Layout discussion in order to discuss which of the suggested layouts should be used for this template. Please feel free to voice your opinions. – Tivedshambo (talk) 08:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Lists of Western Australia[edit]

The issue is a projecct one - not just any one geographical feature - and is the best place for it, your signature name is enough to inspire many attempts at jokes - but I have restrained myself, and invite you to place your comment at the project page - the actual list talk page is a very low traffic location.... SatuSuro 10:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Hesperian is one of the more experienced admins in the west australian project - there might be other responses later - but he is a good judge of what has happened with the lists, cheers SatuSuro 14:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


...but!!! I'd just made an edit to the protected category, and saw the template change request.

  1. Many admins responding to protected page edit requests know little or nothing about templates, so I've found you're best off giving them clear cut 'Cut and Paste' code to change... including a before and after at times.

  2. I can't figure out what you want done from your request, and I daresay, I do know a few things about templates. If my best GUESS is correct, you seem to want them to replace the code of {{Main_coordinates_templates}} with the other. Why? Put the other in place (easy on the database) with the BOT, and eventually, if Main_coordinates_templates is indeed superceded, then it can be deleted or redirected at need.

  3. This discussed somewhere? And which BOT is doing the replacement? Why can't the BOT replace the current template calls without affecting Template:Main_coordinates_templates(edit talk links history) current server loading? Which is to say, can't you write your changes to transisition things easier on the server without risking a lock up of the system?

  4. All in all, any complicated change like that ought be placed in the hands of a template guru admin like CBD or David Kernow, etc. etc. ad infinitum. It's not like WP lacks for such talented people.

  5. Oh- and the reason such pages are protected is because they affect loads and lots of other pages, so should best be done when en.wp is quiet... say 02-04:00 Hrs EDST when such won't lock up the system update que. // FrankB 15:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we're at cross purposes, but I've replied to your comment at Template talk:Main coordinates templates. Andy Mabbett 15:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, your request needed the context of the use of that template to be clear... and make it clear it was really a minor thing. I had much better things to do, trust me! I added links to the references so that others will be able to see your desire to help web crawlers and spammers. <g> Seems silly to me, if looked at that way, but I'm sure you perceive more posative benefits than that interpretation... which is what boils out of your original proposal paragraph! <sorry> Jargon speak will do that! I'm an engineer not a Computer scientist, and most of that discussion made little sense to someone with my background and I've been writing software since '76! Pity the poor lay-reader! <g>
re: I'm not a "kid" and I regard FrankB's closing comment as ill-informed and thus unwarranted. Sorry if you take that badly. Not trying for blood there, but I'm weary of many unnecessary changes fixing things which aren't broken in TFD or CFD, most of which seem driven by eager youngsters reinventing the wheel. One reason I started WP:TSP... we're always impacting each others time negatively when we change the status quo ante. So nothing personal.
re: Oh, and mid-day in which time zone? I stated a specific time window, when en.wp is pretty quiet... 2-4 am EDST, which is East Coast USA when Europe is not yet 'fully awake and in wiki-gear', the USA West Coast is going to bed, and points west of that have lesser English writing editors slowing such big changes down. If you edit into such a time window, preview submissions are amazingly faster... the servers aren't busy.
It would be nice to have a plain English statement about the benefits you guys are shooting for... say which the average librarian might be able to understand. The one person you might want to ask specifically for feedback in user:Patrick, who has written a number of complicated templates in that genre. He's usually at Meta, but occasionally slums here. Best wishes and regards. // FrankB 16:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not at all happy about your changes to List of highest mountains. See Spireguy. Viewfinder 22:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


Hi, Andy. Glad the tag is working like you thought it would. But there's no need to keep me updated with diffs of when it is. Remember, I was on your side :) You may want to show Tyrenius and Tagishsimon — they're the ones who had a problem with it. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 00:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I wasn't so much updating you, as anyone watching that page. Andy Mabbett 08:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


For the taxobox fix. Cheers. Shyamal 09:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


Hi Pigsonthewing, I have noticed you have been adding the DEFAULTSORT template to articles recently. Just to let you know that this feature is a magic word and not a template, and the correct construction is {{DEFAULTSORT:Sortkey}} rather than {{DEFAULTSORT|Sortkey}}, using ":" instead of "|". The template was created to prevent confusion and shouldn't be used if possible. Thanks, mattbr 11:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Point about ":" taken, but what do you mean by "The template was created to prevent confusion and shouldn't be used if possible" ?
Why not get Smackbot to check for cases using the pipe, and change them? Andy Mabbett 11:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Because the magic word looks almost identical to a template, when it was first introduced people saw it and used a template construction to replicate it, resulting in a red link to a non-existent template. The template was created so people didn't see the red link and not understand why it didn't work. It (the template) shouldn't be used because it is creating a dependence on a template for a software feature (magic words), but please do use the magic word. It's a bit of an insignificant edit to do by itself (there is no direct benefit), so they are being changed with other changes (spelling fixes, categorisation etc) to reduce the dependence on the template. I hope that helps, there's more at Template talk:DEFAULTSORT but let me know if you have any more questions. Thanks, mattbr 11:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Andy Mabbett 09:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


How do you find the coordinates of an area and then link them to Wikipedia? Simply south 11:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:GEO. Andy Mabbett 11:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

WA lists[edit]

I note the discussion at WP:WA on the length of lists in Western Australia. I can not see where any consensus was reached. Was the discussion finished elsewhere? Fred 04:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The only person who's objected indicated his withdrawal, so I was bold. Besides, the changes were essential, both for technical and usability reasons. Andy Mabbett 08:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


I've nominated it for deletion.--Isotope23 13:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett 16:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


May I ask that next time you post a request for comments on my behaviour[2] that you inform me. Since it seems you like doing so, you may find appreciate that I provide my input in the matter as it relates to my behaviour. Cheers, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 18:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As per my comments at WP:ANI, thank you for highlighting this issue Andy. I note that Captain scarlet hasn't banned you from notifying him and actually encourages you to do so! Adambro 18:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

UK Waterways[edit]

You have enough starter members so now would be a good tme to start the project. I would suggest that it would be both a decendant of UK geog and Transport wikiprojects. Simply south 18:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a shortcut. I will update the Wikipedia Shortcuts. WP:UKW Simply south 19:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Andy Mabbett 19:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I've also updated the directory. What image would be best to represent the project? Simply south 19:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. How about something based on the black part of ? Andy Mabbett 19:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Possibly. It would have to be created as you cannot use fair-use images. Unless, you can find a similar, free image Simply south 19:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
No problem. Its a start. Simply south 21:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Perry Bridge[edit]

Thanks for sorting out and expanding Perry Bridge. I made some stupid mistakes on there which probably would have gone unnoticed! - Erebus555 20:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

A pleasure, though I've added to what you wrote, not corrected it. It's one of my favourite local landmarks. Andy Mabbett 20:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

No more talking[edit]

From this point hereon you are no longer welcome on my talk page. I ask you to no longer take my talk page for a soapbox and ask you to no longer leave any messages on it. I am passed sick of your attitude and rather than referring you would rather not have on my talkpage ever again. Let this be a warning that I no longer accept your behavious and actions will have to be taken to stop you from using this website as a playground. Good weekend to you Pigsonthewing, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Midlands articles[edit]

Hi Pigsonthewing, I'm editing articles relating to towns/villages in the West Midlands and North Midlands: would you be willing to work on some with me, and help me get one to featured article status??

I'm currently editing the Bassetlaw district's towns and villages.

Any help is appreciated - feel free to reply on my talk page. --SunStar Net talk 15:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for asking; I'll be happy to have a look at what you're working on, but don't really know the East Midlands well. Are you familiar with Project West Midlands (for the county, not the region)? Andy Mabbett 16:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


...what does it mean? KazakhPol 16:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Pigs. On the wing... Andy Mabbett 16:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Tinsley Viaduct[edit]

Hi there Pigsonthewing/Archive 10. As you have commented on the above article's disscussion page, I'd like to invite you to a poll on the inclusion or not of the coordinates box, here. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 20:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

May I also refer you to this edit, which it would appear you missed on the article's talk page. I believe that this satisfies your suggestion that the table has use in naming and linking to the landmarks crossed by the viaduct, so may I ask why you readded the table (whilst misinterpreting my comments)? L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 22:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't. I re-added the table for the reasons stated in my edit summery and in my comments in the poll; to apply the compromise suggested by another user; and because you said your multiple-edit removal of the information in it was "an error". I have yet to determine how my referring to your latter action as "a mistake" misinterprets you. Why did you again remove it? Andy Mabbett 22:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Your edit summary said you were undoing my error - you obviously misinterpreted which part was the error. Removing the template was my intention, so replacing it was not undoing any error. The compromise suggested had no concensus to be added. I am trying to get a concensus now through the poll, since you seem to be unwilling to accept or respect any point of view other than your own through discussion. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 23:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:KETTLE Andy Mabbett 23:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I ask that you critisise content, and not resort to name-calling. Please, do not throw WP pages at me. Anyway, I will draw my conclusions from what you have said, and rebut as follows:
  1. You added the table. I deleted it.
  2. You added a message on the talk page [3], asking why I reverted. I responded [4], saying "I felt that have six seaparate [sic] set of coordinates (each end, both junctions, the river and the canal) seemed absolutely daft!" Captain scarlet (talk · contribs) posted [5] agreeing with me.
  3. You asked for a third opinion [6] (incidentally, you shouldn't have, as WP:3O#listing a dispute - "If, after discussion, only two editors are involved, you may list the dispute here. Otherwise, follow other parts of the dispute resolution process" (there was myself, yourself and Captain Scarlett) and "Provide a short, neutral description of the disagreement, with links to the specific section of the talk page where it is discussed" ("The reasons for doing so are seemingly without substance ("it seemed daft" "do we need this for god's sake"). " is hardly neutral, the latter of those two statements is not even a quote!). But anyway, Scott Wilson (talk · contribs) obliged [7], stating "I personally don't think the bridge is notable (or large) enough to warrant the large number of co-ordinates. Leave it with one". You disagreed [8].
  4. Steinsky (talk · contribs) tried to provide a compromise [9], suggesting "At the moment, the table also describes some of the things the viaduct crosses, something that isn't covered elsewhere in the text", and said that the table could be included, but that we must "make it clear that it's primarily a list of features, rather than coordinates". I added these details to the prose[10], and yet again, you disagreed.
  5. Bkonrad (talk · contribs) offered an opinion [11], stating "The full set coordinates is completely excessive for such a small structure.", adding that "the zoom on the coordinates is so ridiculously out of proportion to the size of the object". You responded [12], completely ignoring the fist part,but replaying to the second thus - "I'd have no issue with any editor changing the zoom on the coordinates in the table". When told [13] "Considering that you are the only one who sees value in keeping table of coordinates, it seems rather incredibly lazy to suggest that someone else clean up after you", you dived in, refuting [14], "Hold your horses; I said no such thing", Still ignoring his comments that the table was to be removed, and you got nasty with me [15] "Poppycock. Are your arguments so weak that you must resort to inventing things?".

So, to my mind, that's me, Captain scarlet (talk · contribs), Scott Wilson (talk · contribs) and Bkonrad (talk · contribs) (=four) who all disagree with you (=one), and even Steinsky (talk · contribs) was only a support on condition that it was used as a list of landmarks, and it's primary use was ot as coordinates - as I have added this to the prose, this may have been superceeded. L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 00:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Meteor Craters and Geology[edit]

Thanks for puting up the list of meteor craters. Unfortunaley, some meteor craters articles were about to be deleted. I was thinking that it would make sense to create the geology project and an infobox for meteor craters (See to protect these articles. I don't really have much experience in this, but can help. Would you be interested in organizing this? Solarapex 20:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, but I already have a full workload, and my only interest in the crater articles was in adding coordinate formatting. I wish you luck, though. Andy Mabbett 20:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


Along with the one you have noticed so far, I have noticed one on User:Lewisskinner's pages, and was surprised to see my name on it, as is yours.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me. The page is completely unacceptable; I've raised the matter on WP:ANI. It does put his recent actions, elsewhere, in a new light. Andy Mabbett

Third Opinion[edit]

Re: Persistent trolling complaint

Third opinion is not the correct forum for complaints of this nature. Third opinions are meant to be used when two editors are, in good faith and with civility, in disagreement over the content of an article. In these cases, one or both users seek an outside opinion to give a new perspective or tie breaking vote. Trolling or persistent personal attacks can be directed to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --Selket Talk 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I can see nothing in WP:THIRD which supports your former assertion; perhaps you can point it out for me? As to your comment about WP:ANI I have been told, more than once there, that that is not the case. Andy Mabbett 06:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Crossings of the River Severn[edit]

I have coordinates for most of the bridges in OS grid reference format, if that's of any assistance to you in converting them to the format you need for the table. -- Kvetner 07:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. You can drop a list here, if you like. The only issue will be bridges in close proximity, in, say, Shrewsbury or Gloucester, if the grid ref is not very specific - if so, I'll ask for help, on the respective town/ city article pages. Thank you for working with me on that page; it's come on a lot, quite quickly. Andy Mabbett 08:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here goes. All these are from Chris Witts' book referenced on the article, I haven't checked any against maps.
[Moved to article talk page]
Good luck! -- Kvetner 23:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Re: the opening of 2nd Severn Crossing, this page [16] states it was opened by Prince Charles, not Lady Hooson. -- Kvetner 22:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Seems I was misled. Thank you also for the coordinates. Nice work in the list of bridges! Andy Mabbett 22:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


I've rolledback your edit, the Doctor Who WikiProject has a "style guide" with a consensus in agreement, furthermore the MoS states: "Specifying the size of a thumb image is not recommended: without specifying a size the width will be what the reader has specified in their user preferences, with a default of 180px (which applies for most readers). However, the image subject or image properties may call for a specific image width in order to enhance the readability and/or layout of an article" -- emphasis on /recommended/, not /disallowed/. Matthew 13:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Thank you for informing me. I disagree that such usage meets those criteria, so I've raised the issue as Sizing of images. Andy Mabbett 13:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


I've moved the stuff about Edward VII's statue to its own page - King Edward VII Memorial. Aynuk N. Ayli 14:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK - you might want to mention that in edit summaries, in future. Andy Mabbett 15:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


Hi Andy, thanks for butting in. Why do you give up? Can't you make it fit in ems? Or are there too many other things to improve as well? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

The "ems" value seemed to be ignored:

 :-( Andy Mabbett 23:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I found that out too when I reset your otherwise correct deletion of picture sizes. Thanks for the copy-edits as well. Feel free to contribute more if applicable, or please give directions where you think opportunity for further improvement exist. Otherwise, simply support the nomination. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Nice work[edit]

75px The Geography Barnstar
You're significant contributions to adding coordinates to articles and work as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Microformats are very much appreciated. Nice work! Adambro 14:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! It's good to be appreciated. Andy Mabbett 14:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


Hi - a stub template or category which you created has been nominated for deletion or renaming at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion. The stub type, which was not proposed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, does not meet the standard requirements for a stub type, either through being incorrectly named, ambiguously scoped, or through failure to meet standards relating to the current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Wikipedia:Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type, and in future, please consider proposing new stub types first! Grutness...wha? 00:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Waterway routemaps[edit]

Hi Andy. In your routemaps, should {{BS-table}} be replaced by a new template that links Legend to Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Waterways/Waterways legend rather than the railways legend? I would go ahead and do so, but I'm not sure that a WikiProject subpage is the best place to have the legend if it is to be linked from the mainspace. JPD (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but probably best to ask on the project page about the proper home for it. Andy Mabbett 16:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject UK Waterways {{reqphoto}}[edit]

Hi Andy, it might be more useful if we tag articles needing photographs so that they go in an appropriate category. Just using {{reqphoto}} places the articles in Category:Wikipedia requested photographs. It is possible to specify an optional parameter to indicate a sub category but it might be more appropriate to do similar to what WikiProject Trains does and have a parameter on {{UKW}} where editors can specify photos are required. Using the WikiProject Trains project banner adds the articles to Category:Rail transport articles needing images which makes it very easy to work through and find images. What do you think to this idea? Adambro 11:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me - can you update the project template accordingly, please - it's beyond me! Andy Mabbett 11:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay sure, I'll do that then update the project page as appropriate. Adambro 12:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Done, could you take a look at the setup and let me know what you think. Adambro 15:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks good, thank you. Could you also add a "stub" flag and category, please? Andy Mabbett 15:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


I will try and have a look at this over the weekend. Rich Farmbrough, 16:45 20 April 2007 (GMT).

Thank you. Andy Mabbett 16:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Andy, I'm doing a large run of template fixes that I started some time back, still has a bit more to go than I expected. Will let you know. Rich Farmbrough, 08:04 24 April 2007 (GMT).

comments at Wikiquette alerts#April 16, 2007[edit]

Hello. Thank you for unraveling the confused entry at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#April 16, 2007. I've modified that section to separate the two incidents, and replied to your comment there. I'd appreciate it if you would take a look to confirm that it's correct now, or let me know if I missed anything. Thanks. --Parzival418 23:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. While I don't agree with your conclusion, you do seem to have resolved the matter of the conflated reports. Andy Mabbett 09:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood something. What conclusion do you not agree with? As far as I can tell, your report about the "trolling" accusation is still unresolved and open on Wikiquette alerts. There are only a few editors helping with that page so results may not be quick. So far I only separated the reports and replied to the one about the closed TfD consensus. You are welcome to explain further here if you like. --Parzival418 10:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
"there are not major violations of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA". Andy Mabbett 10:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I see what you mean. I said there were "not major violations" because while I did see some examples of those violations, that part of the dispute seemed minor compared to the deeper substance of the issues in your discussions. Also, as far as uncivil conduct goes, while I recognize it's frustrating to experience any incivility at all and your examples were annoying to be sure, they seem relatively mild compared to some of the absurdly intense arguments and insults I've seen eslewhere. So I would not call your examples major, but I did not mean there was none of it happening at all and I didn't intend to give that impression.
It seems like your situation is about much more than just some uncivil comments or insults. The arguments are very heated, the subject is complex, and there are multiple editors involved. That's why I recommended that you proceed with further dispute resolution procedures. You have a difficult issue to unravel and it goes beyond what we can help with the limited resources at Wikiquette alerts.
Have you read the article I linked in my initial reply, Wikipedia:Resolving disputes? There is a lot of information there. After reviewing that article you may want to begin with Wikipedia:Requests for comment, or perhaps Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal.
I didn't mean to make light of your situation, I apologize if I gave that impression. --Parzival418 10:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Canal ring[edit]


Will this work? (SORRY!). Simply south 12:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that was the Diana Memorial... Andy Mabbett 12:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Glanhafren Hall Railway Bridge[edit]

I've replied on my talk page. -- Kvetner 21:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

K&A routemaps[edit]

Hi, I see you reverted my addition of the route maps for Devizes to Newbury and Newbury to Reading on the Kennet and Avon Canal. Even after refreshing etc I still can't see them & I was following the advice on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Waterways. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? — Rod talk 19:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't understand why you're not seeing them; but when you re-added them recently there were two of each. Andy Mabbett 19:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Works of Thomas Telford[edit]

Thanks, yes, I was aware of this category and several things in it were put there by myself, having just spotted it very recently. I intend to do more as time permits - I've got a copy of "The Life of Telford", his posthumous autobiography, and also the recent special issue of the Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, which is entirely devoted to Telford's works - there's a paper on his cast-iron bridges, for example. Other tasks may intervene first though - I've currently got "Historic Bridges of Shropshire" in front of me, which I'd like to finish going through and updating any Severn-related articles; I want to do an article on Scottish suspension bridge Louis Harper; and then maybe spend more time on the Telford stuff ... so much to do ... so little time! -- Kvetner 21:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Template changes[edit]

what the heel are you doin' to all the templates dood! can't figgir it out to save mah life! is there an explanation in plain english somewhere? --emerson7 | Talk 00:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added an explanation to the documentation of each template I've changed, which includes a link to WP:UF. Andy Mabbett 10:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)