Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Current disputes

Talk:Nikola Tesla

– New discussion.

Filed by Atlantictire on 22:04, 22 June 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Nikola Tesla (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Atlantictire (talk · contribs)
• Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk · contribs)
• MrX (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

First, I'm reluctant to do this because in my limited experience with AN/I, matters were decided impatiently, focusing entirely on obvious breaches of WP:CIVIL and overlooking the chronic disregard for WP:NPOV or WP:VERIFY that was making everyone quit or go nuts. It was extremely demoralizing. Please whoever takes this up attempt to understand the content and ask questions. This is passive-aggressive WP:PUSH games, and they are working. They have worked for this editor with this particular article for years, apparently. And yes, if you want to get my goat: refuse to compromise or collaborate, ignore talk page discussion, make unilateral edits, revert all of my contributions, only collaborate with admins, show a complete lack of regard for reliable sources, and play endless word games. My goat is gotten. I am at the "YOU ARE AN ASSHAT" stage. WP:BATTLEGROUND should not result from efforts to fix facts, and I do not want to edit war. Background: while copyediting the Nikola Tesla article I noticed that it seemed it have an odd anti-Tesla bias. Specifically, it attempted to minimize Tesla's roll in inventing the first practical AC induction motor and credit other inventors with this accomplishment. Exactly. Sounds ridiculous. But apparently Thomas Edison fans are out for vengeance on account of articles like this. Not a single edit that I've made has managed to survive and I've been trying for over a week. Talk page discussion is disrespected. The editor does what he wants and doesn't care about sources or consensus, only respecting the preferences and edits of the admin who patrols the article. People have been objecting to his Tesla edits for years, and he's completely indifferent: [1], [2]

My initial issue was that the Nikola Tesla lead ought to be more like the Thomas Edison lead, that is written for a general audience not already obsessed with Tesla and electronics. Soon, however, efforts to fix up the lead devolved into quibbling over facts: Tesla's importance in the so-called War of Currents, the extent to which Tesla can be credited with having invented the first practical AC motor, Tesla's contributions regarding wireless technology and radio, etc.

I'll just say I had no special interest in Tesla only 2 weeks ago. I like to copyedit electronics-related articles so that 6th graders can at least understand the lead. My objective was that people who come to this page understand fairly easily why people still care about Tesla, and why Cambridge and Princeton are still putting out books about him. The more I learn about this, the more it does seem that the article's take on Tesla is very idiosyncratic. The section on the AC induction motor definitely seemed to have a bizarre anti-Tesla bias. After days of argument, it's far less POV now.

My concern is also somewhat conduct related in that I have yet to contribute anything to the article directly! MrX has been generous enough to add contributions I've suggested, but if I make an edit based on talk page discussion it gets reverted or re-written. This to me seems petty and calculated to frustrate me, and I am starting to take it personally. It's true. I get frustrated. Absolutely.

I'm pretty busy today, but it would be helpful if when we start editing the article again we could ping MrScorch6200 should a content dispute arise. Wikipedia absolutely needs more MrScorches, so I understand if your services are in demand. But, gosh that would be a god-send!--Atlantictire (talk) 17:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

First posting every. single. edit to the talk page. Asking the editor to collaborate, instead of unilaterally reverting or ignoring talk page discussion. Addressing the issue, both on the editor's talkpage and the article's talkpage. Expressing to the editor how frustrated I am. Alerting the editor that I would ask for mediation should it continue.

How do you think we can help?

I would really just like to make edits to this article without having every single one of them reverted. I would like for talk page discussion to be respected. I would like to not have absolutely everything I've written be re-written without discussion. I would like to be able to contribute to this article directly and not via an admin. I would like to not play endless wordgames about sources.

Some mediation would be absolutely fantastic. Come to the article and stick around for 1-2 days and notice when FOBM is making it impossible for me to contribute. Mediation. Now.

Summary of dispute by Fountains of Bryn Mawr

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This seems to have been a case of Atlantictire taking everything personally and focusing his/her venom on one editor---> me. It all started when I reverted a BOLD edit by Atlantictire per WP:BRD and the editor immediately took it personal thinking I was singling him/her out, making that accusation on my talk pagediff, editor also claimed "singling out" in Tesla talkdiff. I pointed out the specific problems with Atlantictire's bold edit, the article lead no longer summarized the article beneath it, the dates were wrong, the wrong company was cited, Westinghouse did not buy Tesla's patents (he licensed them with the famous "tearing up" of the license coming years later), and we could not say Westinghouse buying the patents "igniting the infamous "War of Currents." per WP:YESNPOV, many sources put that two years earlier when Westinghouse started building AC systems to compete with Edison and Morgan. Many attempts on my part to get Atlantictire to "get the point" re:try to follow WP:RS, look at the related articles and follow their sources to at least clear up the incorrect dates seemed to fall on deaf ears (See my talk page[3], see that long talk[4], that long talk[5], and that long talk[6]. The editor seemed to try to explain his/her behaviordiff And I noted WP:CIVIL for the editor diff. Atlantictire then fell into some serious un-civil rearranging my talk and accusing me of "ignoring" him/herdiff, more diff. Admonishment by me to keep it civildiff, request by MrX to keep it civildiff.

I had to revert two other edits by Atlantictire(diff)(diff) because both edits removed rival motor inventors and boiled it down singling out Galileo Ferraris as a rival AC developer (he was more of an expert on induction and did not "experimenting with AC technology") and incorrectly described what he built (Tesla's and Ferrais' motor did not differ in brush use). Discussion after that focused on should we mention other competing induction motor developers (present sides) or simply not get into a priority dispute and focus on what Tesla did, not whether it was "the greatest". Consensus seemed to be to focus on what Tesla did. War of the Currents was also solidified by Mrx and added to the lead (by me diff). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Latest seems to be Atlantictire hounding my fairly minor edits and one of the many times accusing me of owning the article diff. emoved by MrScorch6200 because it pertains to user conduct Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MrX

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I am not really a party to this dispute, but have been actively editing the article, including the section is dispute. Although I disagree slightly with Fountains of Bryn Mawr (FOBM) on the extent of content about the the development of AC that should be included, it hardly rises to the level of the dispute. FOBM has posted a rebuttal to my last comments, which I have not had a chance to study.

I have collaborated with FOBM on this article for about two years, and have found him to unfailingly edit in good faith. That said, there are conflicting sources about Tesla's life and contributions, which creates challenges for editors, and sometimes discord. It takes lot of patient discussion to work through these conflicting sources and arrive at consensus. On top of that, there are a number of nationalist SPAs and well meaning, but inexperienced, editors who tend to add hero-worship content to the article.

I certainly believe that Atlantictire is editing in good faith, and brings a fresh perspective to the article. His edits seem to be fairly well researched, and deserve consideration. Generally, I'm not in favor of reverting entire edits of experienced editors who (in my opinion) are not pushing a POV. At the same time, editors should not take reverting personally. Talk page posts that start with "FOUNTAINS OF BRYN MAWR DEFIES TALK PAGE DISCUSSION REVERTS AGAIN..." are not conducive to collaboration and only make it less likely that the disputants will listen when a cogent argument is made.

I recommend that the each specific item in dispute be discussed and that the sources be examined to determine consensus among them, or to identify sources that we think are the most reliable. If we can keep personal comments off the article talk page, and listen to each other, I'm sure we can work through these issues and improve the article.- MrX 13:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Nikola Tesla discussion

 On hold until Tomorrow

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Hi guys, I'm MrScorch6200, a volunteer here. I believe that this dispute is bordering on a conduct dispute, but since it involves what seems to be a large amount of content and a very notable article, I believe it should still run through DRN. I am not opening this case for discussion until Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk · contribs) makes their opening statement.

@Atlantictire: Please be patient. A DRN may take anywhere from a day to two weeks. I will be as quick and as prompt as I can. Stay calm and take your time while formulating responses. AN/I is always hectic and admins are always trying to clear the backlog, and yes, by sometimes half-assing cases (I've seen it done before). We take our time here and try to keep all of the involved parties happy. I'll look over the dispute and guide you best I can. Thanks guys, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 23:03, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much MrScorch6200. It would be an extremely encouraging show of good faith if Fountains of Bryn Mawr were to respond, regardless of what his take is. It would mean he's interested in collaborating, and I have been despairing that he isn't.--Atlantictire (talk) 23:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

• You are very welcome. I hope Fountains of Bryn Mawr responds so we can clear this all up soon. If needed, I may contact Reddi for input but he is semi-retired as of last week (he originally pointed out that FoBM removed Tesla info in whichever article). MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 23:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant discussion about user conduct

@Atlantictire and Fountains of Bryn Mawr: I'll be looking at the case and returning tomorrow afternoon but just looking at the first diff that FoBM provided it seems that you were wrong in not following BRD. Generally, when a user makes a large edit to an article but it is problematic, it is usually moved to the talkpage and discussed upon there. There was no need to hound on FoBM saying that it wasn't 'cool' while it was actually procedural. Let's keep our cool here and not shout. DRN is about compromise and not getting one's way over another. Let's focus on content and not conduct. I am also going to invite MrX to the dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrScorch6200 (talk • contribs) Well, I had actually posted the edit to the talk page first [7]. Posted the edit and waited for a response. Maybe Fountains of Bryn Mawr missed it because it was under a hat. But no, I started a section called "lead re-write" and posted the edit I intended to make. I've done that with each and every edit I knew would be controversial. I apologize if my annoyance is evident, but Fountains of Bryn Mawr has been making bold, controversial edits for days either without discussion or in defiance of talk page discussion. In anycase, we can absolutely focus on content. But yeah, the WP:BRD complaint is a little disingenuous.--Atlantictire (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC) Atlantictire Hello, I'm also a volunteer here at DRN and the above comment of 02:45, 23 June 2014 is in the raged edge of being a personal attack and "commenting on the user, not the content". I echo MrScorch6200's comments that this is bordering on the edge of being a conduct dispute and invite you to refactor your above statement lest it be used as a contributing cause for this DRN request to be closed. Hasteur (talk) 13:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC) Hasteur Ok, I'm didn't post diffs, because when you fill out the form asking for mediation, you're limited to 2000 characters. Second, I'm here because there's a tendency on Wikipedia to reflexively look for obvious violations of WP:CIVIL and completely miss the chronic, longstanding disregard for WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV that drives people nuts. Especially editors who care deeply about reliable sources and accuracy. It's the worst thing about this place. I will try to keep it civil, but please can we also focus on the fact that I've been trying to edit this article for over a week and have yet to make a single edit due to reverts and petty re-writes. Yes, I am very much annoyed.--Atlantictire (talk) 13:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC) There's a difference between looking for civility violations and actively dumping additional gasoline on an already existing fire. Your above statement from 13:14, 23 June 2014 suggests a "Everyone is wrong but me"/WP:IDHT mentality. I again reiterate my assertion that you really should refactor your statements to remove the personal attacks otherwise the request will end poorly. Don't focus on what others have done, focus on what you have done and how your edits are supported by policy. Hasteur (talk) 13:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC) Hasteur, it seems like you've been familiar with this situation for all of 20 minutes, which is a little soon to be talking about "gasoline on an already existing fire," and OMG incivility when there's a lot more to this. I am telling you I am at my wit's end and that's exactly why I'm here.--Atlantictire (talk) 13:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC) And actually, I think this is only going to work if Bryn Mawr and I can agree to the intermediary. When I comment on ANI, I always recommend that both parties be able to choose someone they trust. I appreciate that MrScorch6200 seems willing to reserve judgement, and take the time to learn about the content and nature of the dispute.--Atlantictire (talk) 13:38, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• At this point, this dispute has turned into a whirlpool that's throwing around diffs, accusations, and policies. Let's start slow:

@Atlantictire: I want you to rewrite or at least modify the overview to expunge all of the info relating to user conduct and tell me why and how a dispute actually arose. Explain the first edits that were made that started the uproar etc,.  Done

@Fountains of Bryn Mawr: Your opening statement seems fine and I would appreciate it if you could stay and talk things out. After all, in the end, all we want is a resolution.

@Hasteur: Thanks for weighing in. If you would like, I would appreciate some help but please stay as far away as possible from discussing conduct. It will be hard in a case like this but it will help in the end. --Retracted statement; I just saw the talkpage. It would be wise to let Hasteur sit this one out. However, any help is appreciated. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 20:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@MrX: Thank you for weighing in. I know that you aren't exactly an involved party but it seems you've dealt with the other two a lot so I figured it would be helpful if you weigh in.

To everybody: Let's all take a chill pill and rest for a day. Atlantictire and FoBM have been it at it for awhile and could use this time to ease up. I stress that we need to stay as far away as possible from discussing conduct in order to resolve this dispute. If we start discussing conduct again, I will not hesitate to close this case immediately and defer you to whichever forum I deem appropriate. I will open this case for discussion at noon tomorrow. I would ask that you refrain from editing this (until tomorrow), the Nikola Tesla article, and each other's talk pages. Thank you, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 16:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Thank you so much MrScorch6200. --Atlantictire (talk) 17:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I support MrScorch's astute requests and advice. All parties, please slow down, and strictly adhere to discussion of content only. Thanking all parties in advance. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC) DRN volunteer coordinator

TY MrScorch6200 and I have this on my watch list, so will comment and participate when needed. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2014 (UTC)