Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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Unnecessary columns in table?

The table for DVD, Blu-ray and 4K Ultra HD releases in the List of Criterion Collection releases article has the following columns which I feel is totally irrelevant: LD No. (Criterion LaserDiscs have been out of print for decades, there is a separate article covering those LaserDiscs and most importantly, the overwhelming majority of entries for that column have this field blank), Art House (same as the last logic for the previous one), Box set availability (same), UK release (same and Wikipedia is not a retail site anyway so not sure what purpose this one is serving here). The Blu-ray column can be removed too by just color-coding the spine numbers to indicate whether the release is a DVD, a Blu-ray, a UHD or a combination of any two. The table is too huge already. Would request other editors to comment on this and let us know about their opinions. _Jovian ^Eclipse 17:14, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Um, why does a page like this exist anyway? It's just a list of every film they've released....which is basically what's on their website.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bignole: It is definitely due to Criterion's reputation and mainstream media coverage. This article was a featured list nominee long back and although it could not gather much support, the very purpose of this article's existence was not questioned by editors then. Even the result of a later discussion for deletion was "Keep". _Jovian ^Eclipse 06:26, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

This discussion should probably take place on the talk page of the actual article. However, in a general sense I think these types of lists are better served if they avoid availability-type information (i.e. a list of different available formats) because it is not especially encyclopedic. I also take issue with the "art house" column—is this a Criterion designation or is original research? If that designation is not verifiable it should definitely be excised. Betty Logan (talk) 03:13, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Betty Logan: It is explained in the legend (The "Art House" column notes stand-alone releases of a film within the "Essential Art House" series. Some films are available through the "Essential Art House" 50-DVD set, but not as a stand-alone package.) But of course, this does not merit its justification for being included in the table. _Jovian ^Eclipse 06:37, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Jovian, there's a difference between listing all the films that Criterion has put their mark on and listing all the formats you can buy a film from them. Criterion being special doesn't mean that we need a page that just lists every single film they ever released as if they did anything other than purchase the license to distribute the film. You came here to ask about the relevance of listing laserdiscs and other antiquated formats, but arguably if the page itself isn't irrelevant than those formats wouldn't be either. Given that what editors are saying is that Criterion touching a film makes that release special then it would stand to reason that even older formats no longer produced still have historical relevance.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bignole: Of course, they do still have historical relevance. I am not questioning that. I merely opined that the LaserDisc No. column does not have much use in the Blu-ray and DVD table, that's all. I think it is also inaccurate to say that Criterion did not do "anything other than purchase the license to distribute the film". As has been already mentioned in the deletion discussion, Criterion has created new restorations, recorded interviews and commentaries, commissioned essays for their releases, besides setting industry standards for releasing home cinema releases. _Jovian ^Eclipse 07:51, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Why are the only sources to in the article to www.criterion.com? It has no third party sources to show it even has notability. I agree with BIGNOLE. This really is just carbon copy of their website, in Wiki format. The featured list candidate was 13 years ago and it surprisingly passed AFD 4 years ago. In my opinion, everything in the table is unnecessary because there are no third party sources. Mike Allen 14:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

My god. You people are idiots. You've deleted an incredibly useful resource for the stupidest reasons. SilasPWilliams (talk) 21:57, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@SilasPWilliams: Make your point without personal attacks. Please read over the guidelines WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Lapadite (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the point has been made already. SilasPWilliams (talk) 00:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't have enough people burning actual books? Now we have to do it online as well? SilasPWilliams (talk) 00:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

They still run a website, with all of the content was just copied to Wikipedia anyway. No one erased their existence. Calm down. Also, I didn't see your participation in the discussion. Mike Allen 00:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I was unaware it was happening until you burned down all the information you didn't like. What a truly shameful act. SilasPWilliams (talk) 00:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

You biblioclastic buffooon. SilasPWilliams (talk) 00:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah.. I guess you're right... 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Mike Allen 00:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The importance of the list here, in dynamic and searchable form, was many-fold. Films chosen for inclusion in the CC gain a measure of prestige and noteworthiness above-and-beyond the pre-existing note because the curators of the CC deem them worthy of inclusion. The Collection is a microcosm of noteworthy films - worldwide - and the ability to see and re-order at a glance which films from (e.g.) which director, country and decade are included is invaluable.

Providing additional data on format was not intended as a shopping list, but to track which of the films within the collection had INCREASED noteworthiness due to being included across format and over time.

The list passes all reasonable tests for noteworthiness and merit, and the brief and noncomprehending counter arguments are flawed or myopic.

If additional sources are warranted, they can be easily found; suggesting that sourcing Criterion releases primarily to Criterion is a problem is akin to criticising the use of the Bible when detailing Biblical details. It is risible and makes a mockery of the system. ntnon (talk) 19:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of DCEU articles

I want to report here this deletion proposal initiated by myself after the last discussion in this WikiProject. Redjedi23 (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

 Note: the AfD has been superseded by a series of merge requests on each of the challenged articles' talk pages:

• Talk:Victor Stone (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Joker (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Zod (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Mera (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Steppenwolf (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Lois Lane (DC Extended Universe)#Merge request
• Talk:Supergirl (1984 film character)#Merge request
• Talk:Vicki Vale (1989 film series character)#Merge request
• Talk:Oswald Cobblepot (Batman Returns)#Merge request
• Talk:Harvey Dent (1989 film series character)#Merge request
• Talk:Dick Grayson (1989 film series character)#Merge request
• Talk:Edward Nygma (Batman Forever)#Merge request
• Talk:Victor Fries (Batman & Robin)#Merge request
• Talk:Pamela Isley (Batman & Robin)#Merge request

Participants of the previous AfD are invited to comment on the new merge requests. Pinging @Redjedi23, Dronebogus, David Fuchs, WuTang94, Jclemens, Piotrus, TheJoebro64, StarTrekker, and Aoba47. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. My general feeling is that fictional character articles should generally have one article only, with the various film, TV, comic, etc. instantiations covered in that one article. I have no specific concerns with any of these articles in particular. Jclemens (talk) 23:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd support such merges. A fictional character can have one article, lenghty if necessary, but one will do just fine. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I think a major concern is and has been WP:SIZESPLIT, especially if an article gets too big, which was probably one of the reasons why certain iterations of fictional characters got their separate articles in the first place. But here we're deciding if certain character iterations meet WP:GNG, and if they don't, I totally support merging them back. WuTang94 (talk) 04:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Obviously it'll depend on the article, but I've found very few articles on fictional characters where SIZESPLIT is the right answer, versus actually condensing and better summarizing the information. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, InfiniteNexus :)

Imo, for DCEU articles we should merge the information into Characters of the DC Extended Universe.

For Batman articles, I would just redirect them to the main pages. Redjedi23 (talk) 16:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@WuTang94 I would close many of the requests Redjedi23 (talk) 14:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

A standard problem with these character articles is that there is far too much plot retelling, trying to tell each major story or arc to a degree that the character was in. That's against WP:NOT#PLOT. Character backgrounds should only focus on stories that establish essential facets about the character's arc at a high level. Cut these down as they should be and you won't have size issues. Masem (t) 16:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Fantastic Four reception summary

There's a discussion on how we should summarize the reception in the lead on Fantastic Four (2015 film). It can be found at Talk:Fantastic Four (2015 film)#Summary of reviews in the lead. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Infobox color for DCEU character

Hello, in a similar way to MCU articles, I would suggest to decide a color to use for every DCEU articles. Also, do you think that DCEU and future DCU articles should have the same color? Redjedi23 (talk) 15:24, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes and yes. The color should be extracted from the official franchise logo and adjusted if necessary to be MOS:COLOR-compliant. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

It should be #0476F2, am I right? Redjedi23 (talk) 21:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@WuTang94 I ping you because you are a major contributor to DCEU articles. What do you think about my proposal? Redjedi23 (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems like a good color as it matches DC's current logo. The MCU characters seem to be red to match Marvel's logo so I see where you're going with it. WuTang94 (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. For every other DC related article? (e.g. Bruce Wayne (1989 film series), Bruce Wayne (The Dark Knight Trilogy), etc. Redjedi23 (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Update: I tried this color in the Superman page (here), but I don't think it's a big deal. It would be fine if we could "force" the white text, but I don't think this is possible. Redjedi23 (talk) 18:36, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

#0376f2 is a little bit better. Redjedi23 (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Colors must be AAA-compliant per MOS:COLOR, as the template documentation notes. Neither  #0077F2  nor  #0376f2  pass AAA standards. I got a different shade of blue,  #0077F2 , when running File:DC Comics logo.svg through a color extractor; dragging the slider at [1] got me  #0057AD  and  #3399FF  as possible colors. But as Masem noted below, I would wait until the discussion on the infobox talk page has ended before making any changes. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

If the color parameter will be kept, I would go for #0057AD. Redjedi23 (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Please be aware there is a RFC on removing the color parameter from the infobox character template. See its talk page. Masem (t) 23:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Template talk:Infobox character#Propose removal of the Color parameter. TompaDompa (talk) 23:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

A small group of WikiProject Video games editors trying to force a needless change that affects multiple WikiProjects despite years of implicit consensus from the community... InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Rediscovered film categories

Hi. I've just noticed that there are a lot of articles miscategorised under Category:Rediscovered films and its subcats. Many were added by User:Espngeek, for whom I've left a message asking to stop. I've emptied Category:2010s rediscovered films and removed Category:2000s rediscovered films from all but one article, but help is needed to check the rest.

On another note, these should probably be titled Category:Rediscovered 2000s films, etc., but that's a matter for CfD. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:19, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

The user has also added a lot of inappropriate citations to streaming site MUBI, e.g. Special:Diff/1161168191. Articles which they've extensively edited, such as Vulgar auteurism, are a mess. A lot of clean-up will be needed. Espngeek's behaviour has previously been brought up at ANI, but didn't receive attention then. They're now playing obtuse in response to my message regarding the above miscategorisations. I'd appreciate if regular WikiProject Film contributors could take a look and see if further action is needed here. --Paul_012 (talk) 02:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Review aggregator CherryPicks?

With this edit to Citizen Kane, Themashup (talk · contribs) added a critical reception score from a review aggregator called CherryPicks (redlinked to establish there's no WP article on the site), which is new to me. Are other editors familiar with this site? Thanks! DonIago (talk) 14:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I found it randomly. It basically is a site for female and non-binary critics. It is a interesting site but can't find a lot of information around it besides the site itself. From checking, a lot of the time, they lack a lot of reviews so I think that could be a reason for why there's no Wiki place for it. Another is because it essentially, from what I've seen, grabs RT critics who fit their criteria and just post their review on their site and see if it passes tests like the Bechdel test and give it a score. Wouldn't say a Wiki article is needed for it since the site doesn't seemed to share alot of information and likes to be low-key which is fine imo and support that vibe. It's like a antique shop (the website) and I found it intresting and fun. Themashup (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

It seems fine as a resource for finding reviews in other sources; reliance on their coverage or aggregate scores directly would ideally be backed by WP:USEBYOTHERS examples. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it could work. For myself, I think it follows too much of a similar format as RT to be it's own. My one issue I found with it right now is that many foreign films (from before like the 2010s) are completely missing. Along with that, many more films are missing too and their scores are usually based on no more than a couple dozen (at most) of reviews making their ratings less accurate and taking into account all the reviews usually can be found on RT, it seems less noteworthy. Though, a praise I have with it is it's inventiveness. The site is trying to give voice to a community that I myself am apart of and I love what it's doing. Though, while I think it works as a site, I think as a site we always use like RT to prop up films won't work too well since it mainly feels like a less RT in that regard when it comes to the reviews they have. What should be regarded with them is their notice on if a film meets standards like the Bechdel test, that's interesting that most other film place usually do. Themashup (talk) 03:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Is there support for the addition of all these foreign and minor/non-notable aggregator sites being added by themashup? Where will that end? Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 08:19, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I think they matter, sites like KinoPoisk, Allocine are significant since they tell a countries peoples thoughts on a product. They are not "non-notable", but the opposite. I said Cherry Picks is minor but can be mentioned since it's a US service for specific reviews that can be supported but not much more/ I don't find deleting ,for example, information I put out about how The Dark Knight was received by other countries minor, that to me is just wrong. Critics in one country hated a film like The Dark Knight and just because you don't like that doesn't mean it should be hidden. I just found out some information I added for The Dark Knight was deleted and I find that absurd. To me, we should have a section there expressing what other countries thought of the film for others to know. To not seems ,in my opinion, elitist and offensive to other people's opinions. I'm not sure if someone accidently deleted what I wrote what Russia thought of that film but would like to talk to whoever did since I find you're reasoning reductive. Themashup (talk) 09:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

"just because you don't like that", bit early to be assuming you know anything about me mash, this is literally our first encounter.

A) It's the English Wikipedia, if Russia has a specific issue with the film that could be notable but otherwise it's Russia, which is known for disinformation and a dislike of America, I question and challenge the neutrality of their reviews, but it's also a pool of 11 Russian Critics from what you added so why is that notable? Who are these critics, why does their opinon matter, are they writing for personal blogs? Who knows. Where is the notability, where is the evidence that their opion is noteworthy or that their opinion, which is so significantly out of line with reviews both in and outside of America are neutral? How are these 11 unknown people reflecting the opinion of a nation of 147 million (and dropping)?

B) Same with CherryPick, where is the notability? Just because 10 people get together and write reviews doesn't make it notable. If I collect 20 people, start a site called Wikiggrate, are our opinions noteworthy because we provided an aggregated score?

C) Where does it end? Literally. If we're including Russia which has no relevance whatsoever to an American/British made film, do we include every other aggregator we can find? A German one, a French One, a Spanish one? It's not feasible to do so and it borders on being well outside of the scope of the article. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 10:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

The problem that I find with this website is that when I go to the "About" page....it tells me nothing about the company. In fact, it is partially a fluff piece about how they are a "leader in entertainment and media". Yet, a news search for "CherryPicks" only yields results from their website. That means that no one is referencing them. For reference, Here is Rotten Tomatoes. CherryPicks appears to be someone's personal work. The podcast and the IG are run by Meg McCarthy, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Twitter is also run by her. It looks like they are getting some access to actual people on the industry for interviews, which is good to see, but my concern is that no one is referencing them or their interviews....seemingly anywhere significant. That makes me feel like we are placing some undue weight on their opinion regarding films based on tests that have nothing to do with the quality of the film and more to do with sociopolitical ideals.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

With CherryPicks I understand your reasoning since CherryPicks is one I have myself criticism of and positives. I'm new here and don't know everything but think their platform seems to be trustworthy enough in my opinion for a mention since I believe they do have credibility based on how well organized they are. Themashup (talk) 13:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

For KinoPoisk, I think it matters to include foreign countries opinion on media. Checking their Wikis, I have seen wiki for films in different countries describe varying consensus if they're significant. KinoPoisk I thought would be since it shows a shocking distain for a beloved movie which I think is significant and should be shown. For example, for Chernobyl miniseries, the wiki page discusses Russia,Ukraine and critics form US thoughts on it and China's. This is because they're opinions stand out from the masses or are relevant for discussion. If a iconic film gets a shocking response from one country I find that interesting to detail. KinoPoisk has been around for over a decade and has a trustworthy amount of reviews to be called legitimate and each critic review has a link to a reputable source. These reviews are important because they show a place's peoples taste in media and if it stands out it should be noted. I could say delete all Metacritic info for films and their scores since you can find all their reviews usually on RT and a average score and end Metacritic. Also, the reason why I said KinoPoisk critics opinions stands out is how negative it is by comparison showing not all universal acclaim was universal. If you say 11 critics from a nowhere country don't matter then ignore when sites like Allocine are mentioned by the film Boyhood wiki to show acclaim everywhere and verify that. If The Godfather had shocking hate from let's say Russia then I would add that there cause it stands out and opens people's eyes. Themashup (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't care about Allocine. Unless it's relevant it probably shouldn't be in the Boyhood article, and per WP:OTHERSTUFF just because an editor added Allocine to that article at some point doesn't mean it was a good thing to do, it just means noone ever bothered to remove it. 11 reviews on Kinopoisk, 6 of which are apparently negative, is not a consensus of Russian opinions in general, there is no evidence of Kinopoisk's notability (existing is not in itself notable), and there is no evidence of how it's processes for determining the content of reviews and how it aggregates them. It's not notable. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 21:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

It is when knowing how many hundreds of thousands of votes from Russia are on films and TV on the site. It shows the site is huge there and is known enough here to have a Wiki page. It is notable with how it stands out and that's undeniable. The critics rating stands out even from the Russian audiences and shows the critics from Russia's odd opinions on it. Honestly don't feel like arguing this since it's not that deep and low-key lost interest. Themashup (talk) 21:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with DWB and Bignole that we need to establish the notability/reliability of CherryPicks before using that site as a reliable source. The "About" page references plenty of sources where CherryPicks received coverage in 2018 when it entered the scene, but the question remains as to whether or not they are receiving sustained coverage and notability. Here are a few samples:

Rotten Tomatoes Alternative CherryPicks to Battle Gender Imbalance in Film Criticism – The Hollywood Reporter (2018)

CherryPicks Launches ‘CherryPop,’ a New Podcast on Sex in Movies With Hosts Beandrea July, Meg McCarthy – Variety (2018)

New aggregator CherryPicks will highlight female reviewers and women in film – Mashable (2018)

Ongoing coverage would indicate their work is being recognized for its quality and contribution to the industry. I didn't find much outside of 2018 in a brief search, and more recent sources I did come across weren't from highly-reputable publishers. Willing to consider further if we can verify sustained coverage. --GoneIn60 (talk) 13:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I missed those at the bottom, but it's weird they don't show up in a basic Google News search as the top choices. That said, I'll go back to what is the point of using them? Rotten Tomatoes "tomato meter" is really just an aggregate of positive and negative reviews, based on reviewers actual scores. The CherryScore claims to be based on female/non-binary reviewers. One would think they would pull from the list at RT, but they actually don't seem to do that. Citizen Kane has 100% rating, but has 1 reviewer listed. Batman Returns has 67%, but with 2 reviewers listed. If there are other reviews, then they are not easy to find. I don't think you can call yourself an "aggregator" with a single review. I'm back to the fact that we're placing undue weight on a website that is reviewing films (not all films mind you) from a sociopolitical standpoint and not from a quality of the film standpoint. That said, it is possible that we use some of their individual reviews as part of the overall summary of reception for the film, but I don't think they should be placed next to RT as some alternative aggregator like MetaCritic is used.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 15:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The reason we use RT and Metacritic scores in reception for films is not because RT or Metacritic are inherently notable (that is what their articles are for) but because the mainstream media regularly use them for quantifying the immediate reception of a film i.e. they have become a kind of industry standard. This doesn't make it a free-for-all for every kind of metric we can find. For example, we don't add the Bechdel Test to film articles—despite it being notable—because its metrics are not an industry standard for assessing films. I have never heard of "Cherry Picks" and oppose its inclusion in articles unless its scores start popping up in other reliable sources, especially the mainstream trades such as variety, The Hollywood Reporter, Screen Daily etc. Betty Logan (talk) 13:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

RfC on reliability of pinkvilla

Editors may be interested in this RfC on reliability of pinkvilla.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 13:22, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I Still Know What You Did Last Summer (1998)

Hello, I have discovered through the reliable source American Film Institute that the movie "I Still Know What You Did Last Summer" (1998) is a co-production between the United States, Germany and Mexico, however when I add the information it is removed because I'm not a Wikipedia librarian. For this reason I decided to write to you in the hope that you add the true information that I mentioned and which you can verify, within the "countries" category in the "I Still Know What You Did Last Summer" fact sheet. 201.168.135.194 (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

RFC for Inclusion criteria for List of highest-grossing films based on television series

On the talk page for List of highest-grossing films based on television series, there is a dispute over whether or not films based on short films like Mickey Mouse, Looney Tunes and Wallace and Gromit should be included on the list, with one argument being that they are dissimilar to television series and another being that the scope of the page could be expanded to include them. Should these be included or not? 98.228.137.44 (talk) 14:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment: As I said back in May, that entire article is a WP:SYNTH mess. AfD would probably be more appropriate than this RfC. TompaDompa (talk) 16:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

If you feel it's worthy of an AFD, you're free to make one. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. This is just deletion worthy. Total WP:SYNTH show, and full of blatant errors of fact. Like Space Jam is not based on Scooby-Doo or SNL, so those entries in the TV series list are bull. And the Kelvin-timeline Star Trek films are in continuity with the previous series, or did someone not understand the whole reason Leonard Nimoy was in those movies. The whole thing is a disaster that shouldn't exist and needs to be deleted. oknazevad (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

You can create an AFD if you wish. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 17:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I sent the page's creator a talk page message directing them here. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 21:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Propose a technical close An article-specific RFC has no business being on the Film project talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 21:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I admit I posted it here because the article's talk page hasn't gotten any activity from other users and I wanted to put it where it would get more attention from other users, because currently the talk page is just me and the article's creator going back and forth without anyone else offering any opinions, which isn't enough for a consensus. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 21:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  The appropriate course would be to create the RfC at that Talk page and post a notice here, not the other way around. DonIago (talk) 23:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Very well then. I'll close the one here and repost it there. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 00:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I created this page too be a sister page to List of highest-grossing films based on video games could this be defined better probably if anyone wants to help improve this page go ahead whiles creating this page I ask for help on the talk page for highest-grossing films based on video games but not no responseFan Of Lion King 🦁 (talk) 21:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion will now be hosted here.98.228.137.44 (talk) 00:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Whether an unfinished film is "canceled"

Your input would be appreciated at Talk:Being Mortal (film) (article | history). The discussion concerns whether it's appropriate for the article to state the film has been canceled. Nardog (talk) 11:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Commented. TompaDompa (talk) 22:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 4 § Drama films by year

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 4 § Drama films by year. Qwerfjkltalk 17:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)— Qwerfjkltalk 17:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Plot or Synopsis section

I notice that the plot or synopsis sections of film articles seem to typically not have references. This is in specific reference to this discussion. "At the talk page for the documentary Ukraine on Fire I am finding some very problematic stuff, including that the film is pushing a "fringe" POV and as such, "The whole synopsis is based on the film itself (as a primary source), and should be removed as pro-fringe." This editor wants the whole Synopsis section removed because they don't like what it says. Is that okay? Is the plot or synopsis section not always based on the primnary source of the movie its self? Carptrash (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I think MOS:FILMPLOT covers this better than I'm about to, but essentially, as long as the plot or synopsis really is just summarizing what occurs in the film, and doesn't attempt to interpret events or such, no references are needed because the film itself is the reference. Hope this helps! DonIago (talk) 20:16, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I know that's what MOS:FILMPLOT says but I don't see the justification for what seems to be a general flouting of Wikipedia's principles. If it's the editor writing about what they saw happen in a film while watching it, then it's no different from someone visiting a city and then writing here about things they saw there, or some scientist publishing here their own observations of the behavior of some organism in the presence of a particular wavelength of light. It's original research. Largoplazo (talk) 00:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Staying blind to the political aspect of that article, I can see how that synopsis does have some moments of original research which are not usually appropriate in film synopses. A proper synopsis should be an uncontroversial and straightforward accounting of the contents of the film, and this one definitely has some editorial tone to it. For example, there is a claim that the film portrays one particular side's point of view; unless the film explicitly states that outright, that needs a source. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

A straightforward plot summary is self-sourcing, primarily because it would be difficult to summarize and verify a plot through secondary sources alone. To echo the points above, I do agree that there are fundamental problems with how this synopsis is written—the editor seems to have incorporated their own commentary; here is a red flag for me: "A big part of the film is dedicated to recounting the development of far-right politics in Ukraine." Does the film itself characterize the politics it is discussing as "far-right"? We need an experienced Film editor who has seen the film to mediate this dispute. Betty Logan (talk) 23:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

If it's too difficult to cover the plot based on sources of the level of suitability that we usually require for everything else, then we don't have to cover the plot. On the other hand, an awful lot can be compiled from film reviews. Largoplazo (talk) 00:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Describing the plot summary based on the film itself has long been established in the film Manual of Style. The problem with this plot summary in particular isn't because of that, it's because an editor is adding their own interpretation of the material without secondary reliable sources. —El Millo (talk) 00:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

That it's in the film MoS was the stated premise to my comment. I didn't say it's long been there, but that doesn't alter the basis for my remarks. Largoplazo (talk) 10:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it would take a lot of effort to piece together a coherent plot summary that is fully cited to a bunch of reviews. If you crib it from just one source (say for example, the AFI Catalog) then you are likely to encounter copyvio problems in many cases. MOS:PLOTSOURCE establishes that a plot summary can be sourced to the work itself, provided it is a basic summary with no interpretative statements. The problem with the plot summary at Ukraine on Fire is that it appears to include the editor's own analysis (and obviously, any analytical or interpretative statements should be fully cited). Betty Logan (talk) 01:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

You've just repeated the premises on which my remarks were based. As I already said, if it would be too much effort to comply with Wikipedia's general policies and guidelines, then don't do it, just as with every other topic area, and every other aspect of every topic area, on Wikipedia. I understand what MOS:PLOTSOURCE says, and, as I stated above, it's in violation of Wikipedia's prevailing principles. I look at it and thing, "Did the people who wrote this ever consult the policy pages?" I don't see why "It's too hard" is more of a justification for film buffs than it is for every other Wikipedia contributor. (I realize that I've now fully digressed from the point of this thread, and I see no reason for any of us to take this in circles, so I'll end here.) Largoplazo (talk) 10:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Articles about works of fiction are well served by a basic plot summary. Primary sources are perfectly acceptable for straightforward summaries that are not challenged by other editors. In such cases, I do not see the merit of imposing such an onerous task on editors in the case of all film articles i.e. the pain outweighs the gain. If you believe that MOS:PLOTSOURCE is not consistent with Wikipedia policy then I suggest that you raise the issue at the MOS page itself, because it affects more than just film articles. In the case of Ukraine on Fire secondary sourcing may the way to go, but I think it can probably be fixed by an experienced editor familiar with the conventions of writing a plot summary. Betty Logan (talk) 10:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Basing a plot summary on the work itself is not original research, it is just sourcing the summary to the primary source. We could add explicit citation tags to the primary source but that is generally unnecessary because the plot summary is going to be beside an infobox that already has those details in it. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, see WP:PRIMARY. As long as we only describe what's can be verified in the primary source (in this case the film), we're good.Scribolt (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Are editors in this discussion aware that the subject film of Ukraine on Fire purports to be a documentary? It is not fiction, uses footage of real events and purports to interpret them. The article has a synopsis, not a “plot summary,” because if there is a plot (narrative), it is not the creation of the filmmaker. I see cited guidelines MOSPLOT, PLOTSOURCE, and PLOTCITE, which appear to apply only to works of fiction.

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Documentaries, the synopsis can include analysis of aspects of the documentary’s subject from secondary sources, and can have a separate “Analysis” section, and reviews by authorities on its subject and not just film critics. —Michael Z. 20:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware, for one, and the documentary guidance doesn't abrogate WP:FILMPLOT. In fact, it specifically states that WP:FILMPLOT applies to documentary synopses, and gives additional guidance in terms of providing analysis elsewhere, not in the synopsis. This discussion is about editorial analysis in the synopsis itself. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay. But it refers to FILMPLOT with the qualification on how to “describe the on-screen events.” And it does give additional guidance on providing analysis in the synopsis and elsewhere:

Since a documentary deals with real-life topics and figures, provide wikilinks to them wherever useful. See the guidelines on link clarity and specificity, and link to terms that match the topic precisely if not closely. If coverage from secondary sources focuses on a specific aspect of the documentary, that aspect can be elaborated to provide context for the coverage. For example, the documentary may mention some statistics, and there is coverage from secondary sources analyzing these statistics, which are not detailed in the synopsis.

 —Michael Z. 20:55, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything suggesting adding analysis to the synopsis itself and am focusing on the last sentence of the quoted section, which says that the analysis is not detailed in the synopsis. If that's not the right interpretation, then the guideline deserves some clarification. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Clarification would be good. But to me it clearly says that in the Synopsis section (referred to in the previous sentence), or “wherever useful,” we can “provide wikilinks” and elaborate “to provide context.” The last sentence ends with “the synopsis” meaning the specific text used to describe on-screen events, and not “the ‘Synopsis’ section.”  —Michael Z. 21:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I guess the sentences surrounding the quoted material are clearer to me. For example:

Instead of a plot summary, a documentary article should have a synopsis that serves as an overview of the documentary. The synopsis should describe the on-screen events of the film without interpretation, following the same guidelines that apply to a plot summary (see WP:FILMPLOT).

and

An "Analysis" section can be written to detail the statistics from the documentary and to report the analytical coverage from secondary sources.

To me, this indicates that we treat the the synopsis section as per WP:FILMPLOT and leave secondary coverage for other sections. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

The first part is not comprehensive: it doesn’t say the synopsis should only contain what’s described in FILMPLOT. It says the description in the synopsis follows the other guideline.

The next four sentences say what else applies. It’s not unclear unless you can offer some other obvious interpretation.

Only then it adds that an “Analysis” section can optionally be added too. And furthermore it links to advice at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Controversies that says controversies shouldn’t be walled off in an article section, but are integral to the article’s narrative.  —Michael Z. 00:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Relevant template best practice discussion

Please see Template_talk:Metacritic_album_prose#Subst'ing and weigh in. Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:27, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Return to Silent Hill text copied from Fandom

Could I get more eyes on this discussion about text being copied from a Fandom page. Particularly if you are knowledgeable with copyright policies. Thanks. Mike Allen 18:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Possible issues at Dexter Fletcher

I noticed that the article for Dexter Fletcher looks like it's been rewritten in a heavily promotional, non-encyclopedic tone, mostly by Khan Zak13. I'm traveling today so I can't look too much into it, but a deeper dive into possible COI violations might be warranted – if someone has a moment for that, that would be great. I'll also notify Khan Zak13 at their talk page. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

i restored an earlier version as the current one was completely inappropriate -- FMSky (talk) 08:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay Ka, Fairy Ko!: The Movie

A Pilipino Movie JuanTejada19 (talk) 12:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Across the Spider-Verse cast section

A discussion has been started at Talk:Spider-Man:_Across_the_Spider-Verse#Cast_section, about the cast section for this film if anyone feels like inputting. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Superman: Legacy (2025) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Superman: Legacy (2025) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superman: Legacy (2025) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Additional comments would be welcome. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Enjō#Requested move 26 June 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Enjō#Requested move 26 June 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Dolph Lundgren

I don't know if anybody here is a fan of his, but it's currently up for delisting as a GA. It just needs somebody to write an account of his film work since 2011. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Film budget

Some movies which grossed more than their budget are declared flops. I found out that the budget includes only film budget but not cist of movie promotion and other costs.

Also producer share, distributer share, there share is not mentioned.

The film info box must give details, so that we can easily find out that the movie is flop Vampswefg (talk) 02:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

No one can easily find out that the movie is flop as it's often not known how much a studio actually spent on a film. Infoboxes are for simple information, nuances are for the body of the article. —El Millo (talk) 03:09, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The general rule of thumb is 2.5 to 3 times whatever the budget is to break even (ex: a $200 mill budget film might have another $100 mill in marketing. If it makes $600 million, the studio only sees about 50% of that, because the theater keeps the rest. Hence, the studio got $300 million and basically broke even). The infobox doesn't need to acknowledge that, but I would expect the box office section to talk about this. It isn't hard to find sources that discuss the general rule of thumb for determining box office success and how a particular film stacks up.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Template:Pending films key

We're currently using {{dagger}} † as key for pending films, but that's extremely similar to {{extinct}} † and other symbols for death, e.g. {{KIA}}  †. I think that {{await}} C would be much more intuitive, so I propose to substitute the symbol in Template:Pending films key and all pages linking to it. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 18:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense to me, though I'm sure some people will object to a big clock showing up everywhere this template is used. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:57, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It also makes sense to me; it could suggest that the film was "killed", i.e. cancelled. I have no issue with the one with the clock, but if there are qualms against it, {{double dagger}} (‡) may be a suitable alternative? It doesn't, as least off my own experience and gut reaction, have any connotations and it's a clear symbol. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:39, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Barbenheimer for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Barbenheimer is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbenheimer until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

InfiniteNexus (talk) 11:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Lead descriptors

Just for my own sanity: do descriptors in the lead of a film article new RS citations? ie The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring "epic fantasy adventure film", Star Wars "epic space opera", La La Land "romantic musical film", American Graffiti "coming-of-age comedy-drama film", Nixon (film) "epic historical drama film". In full disclosure, this is in tandem with the current discussion at An American in Paris: Talk Page. I am having difficulty with the concept of citing descriptors in the lead for films. Maineartists (talk) 04:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Whether or not the genres technically need to be sourced, if someone is questioning whether they're accurate/appropriate, the path of least resistance and most practical option is to provide a source that supports them rather than arguing over the need for sourcing. That said, I haven't looked at the specifics of this case (yet). DonIago (talk) 05:37, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, I guess my question is: how are descriptors chosen at WP in regards to film articles? Since I have never seen an actual descriptor in the lead of a film article sourced, I am wondering how it is decided. And by whom? For instance: if every synopsis and review talks about the comedy of the actors, the comedic plot of he story and the comedic timing of the direction, and an editor places the descriptor "comedy" film, but another editor says: "prove it". What does one do? Maineartists (talk) 05:52, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

MOS:FILMGENRE discourages having complex descriptors like this, it is generally best to just list the obvious genre such as fantasy, space opera, musical, coming-of-age, historical drama. If there is a unique film where it really isn't obvious you could just not have one, or look to sources like the creative team. I would be careful about using sources from reviews, just because one reviewer praised the film's comedy doesn't mean it is appropriate to call it a comedy film. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:04, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Good to know. Thanks for this. So stating MOS:FILMGENRE "At minimum, the opening sentence should identify the following elements: the title of the film, the year of its earliest public release (including film festival screenings), and the primary genre or sub-genre under which it is verifiably classified." What does "verifiably classified" mean? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 06:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Specifically, an editor wished to include the descriptor: "romantic" at An American in Paris (film) and it was challenged. The editor who challenged it directly stated that to include, the descriptor would need RS sources that specifically called the film a "romantic musical". Not the plot, not the synopsis: there had to be RS sources that specifically called the film: a "romantic musical". I raised the question: where in all the WP articles on film does one find any descriptors that back each and every claim with a RS stating exactly what the film is? and since when did we start instituting this as a policy? I cannot find any RS that specifically state any of the descriptors for the 5 films listed above. So how are they allowed? What RS called the film Nixon: an "epic historical drama film" in their review in order for this descriptor to be allowed at WP without challenge? Presently, I cannot find any RS that calls An American in Paris a "comedy", yet the descriptor is there. It seems this would open up an unnecessary can of worms for editors across the WP-verse if they had to find RS that specifically stated the descriptor in exact wording. With this reasoning, I could go into any film article and remove descriptors based on this "policy" until proven with a specific RS. Where is common sense in all this? Per WP:FILMGENRE, "Genre classifications should comply with WP:WEIGHT and represent what is specified by a majority of mainstream reliable sources." WP even lists the film: American Romantic Musical Films (I know, I know: we don't cite WP) Maineartists (talk) 12:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

RFC about use of Rotten Tomatoes for biographical information

This RFC at RSN may be of interest to project members. Abecedare (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise

Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:55, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Editorializing at List of most expensive films

An anonymous editor keeps inserting random cherry-picked examples into the lead at List of most expensive films. There is no logic to the examples (i.e. most expensive/record-holders etc) and one of the films does not even qualify for the list on the basis it didn't cost enough. I would appreciate a third opinion at Talk:List_of_most_expensive_films#Recent_changes_to_lead, because until that happens it's just two editors having a content dispute rather than one editor editing against a consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@Betty Logan Heads up, I already self-reverted before you wrote this.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_most_expensive_films&diff=prev&oldid=1165561284

P.S.Before feeling the need to cry to mommy, you also could've just checked in with me.

I'm actually very reasonable. And I did in fact list my thinking/logic here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_most_expensive_films&diff=prev&oldid=1165559468 despite your false claim that I offered no logic.

As far as my interest about "expensive films goes" I decided to look into this myself before I author anything, a little deeper dive, and see how other 'more objective folk' feel, for my own personal understanding. I definitely believe there is a place for this there, but I'm still reading articles on the matter-- given this uptick of mega-boxoffice films spiraling out of control in budget. So I want to see if there's a more cogent manner to include it if I decide to.

However, maybe next time, Betty, try to find a WP:MIDDLEGROUND first? And failing that, then and ONLY THEN resort to more drastic interventions? Rather than resorting to a WP:BATTLEGROUND just because you can't have your way. 2601:282:8100:32A0:9CB1:5324:555D:32CA (talk) 00:01, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

However little good faith you think Betty was initially assuming, this is far more uncivil than anything she wrote. You also started edit-warring by continually redoing your edit, not using either WP:BRD or WP:BRB, and your additions kept adding The Flash which doesn't even qualify for the article, showing a lack of knowledge in what you were adding. WP:COMPROMISE comes in after discussion, which you should've started instead of Betty. —El Millo (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo I self-reverted soon enough, and unlike “The Flash” I don’t have the power of time-travel to fix past mistakes, so all I can do is humbly move on upwards and onward. I was well within the 3RR rule so it wasn’t edit warring.lol

As far as “civility” goes, it takes two to tango— especially when I’m being provoked and WP:Baited from an editor who apparently has a history of being disruptive and edit warring (i.e.if you carefully examine her history of knee-jerk reactions to others she passionately disagrees with).

This is moot btw. As I made it clear I changed my mind for now. Sorry, but I’m not here to be trolled by you as this is WP:notaforum. So feel free to have the last word at my expense. I won’t be around to hear it— now that that unforgiving hot sun is going down, it’s cooling off enough that I’m going fishing with my blokes. Hopefully it cools off here with you hotheads, sheesh. 2601:282:8100:32A0:80E1:A586:1ACA:6325 (talk) 00:45, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Starting a discussion that articulates the reasons why I disagree with your edit and inviting others to comment is not "baiting" you, it's how Wikipedia functions. You have characterized me as "crying to mommy", "resorting to WP:BATTLEGROUND", canvassing, not following WP:AGF, being "disruptive" and "edit-warring" (despite the fact I started a discussion hours ago and did not revert your most recent edit). You have accused another editor here of "trolling" you, and at the other discussion you accuse another editor of being WP:NOTHERE and not adhering to WP:CIVIL. None of us have referred to you in such impertinent terms. Please confine your comments to the topic at hand. If you take issue with an editor's conduct there are various administration boards to deal with that sort of thing, but project pages are not the place. Betty Logan (talk) 01:10, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

"Rape film" genre?

An editor tonight has created all of these categories for a genre he calls "rape films" and "rape thriller films" (see Category:Rape films by decade). Now is it just me or this completely made up film genre? A major classification in the type of films is not whether or not there is a rape scene in them. This editor is so persistent, I think it will take more than me to challenge his efforts. Some of these categories are not populated yet so I have tagged this as CSD C1 but I think they'll find a way to fill them up.

What do you do when an editor invents a film genre? I'm sure it's happened before. Thanks for any help you can offer. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

We could start by asking them to submit around 10 or so reliable sources that use the term. —El Millo (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

This reminds me of an editor who had an obsession with "rape films" from a few years back. There was a massive case file against him. I will see if I can dig it out. Betty Logan (talk) 08:52, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Here it is Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/109.151.65.218. The editor who created these categories is a new account so there isn't much to go on, but we should keep an eye on him. Betty Logan (talk) 09:04, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

There's an established genre called "rape and revenge film", and it has a category already. Drama films that don't have a violent revenge plot aren't labeled like this. They're just called dramas. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Dispute over studios credited in Nimona (film)

A discussion is ongoing at Talk:Nimona (film)#Studio dispute over the studios credited for this animated film. Some want to credit only Annapurna Pictures (who produced it after it was revived), while others wish to credit Blue Sky Studios, 20th Century Studios, and Vertigo Entertainment, with the latter three producing it before it was cancelled, along with Annapurna. Comments from members of this WikiProject would be appreciated. Historyday01 (talk) 14:08, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Deletion discussion: Kill Bill

Discussion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kill Bill. Popcornfud (talk) 10:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Starring field in Infobox film: the 2-4 top billed stars, or the entire exhaustive cast list?

An editor has been warring with me at Carmen (2021 film) over the starring= field in the infobox; the rule has always been to list only the handful of top-billed stars who are playing the film's main characters in that spot, and use the body of the article to list the rest of the supporting cast, but the other user is arguing that the rule is that starring= has to list every single actor whose name appears on the poster at all, even if that runs to 13 or 14 "stars".

I can't find a version of the poster that's HD enough to read the poster in fully clear detail, but I have found this, in which Natasha McElhone and Steven Love are the two top-billed actors, and then there's a half-height word I can't quite make out ("featuring"? "introducing"?) before any other actor is named, then several actors later there's another group set apart as "with" and the only other actor with a Wikipedia article at all appears last and is set off with an "and". So it's clear that the film is positing McElhone and Love as the principal stars and everybody else as supporting, and our rule has never, ever been to let the starring= field in the infobox run on to 13 or 14 people — especially because that extends the infobox so badly that the page is now close to half dead whitespace because the amount of body text doesn't even come close to matching the extended length of the infobox.

So could somebody else weigh in on what the infobox is supposed to contain, so that this doesn't turn into an unresolvable one-on-one edit war? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 23:39, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

There is a clearer image here. Generally we use the billing block as a guide (the other editor is correct in that the billing block is located at the bottom of the poster), but that's not to say every single name in the billing block should go in the infobox. I agree that a dozen actors is excessive, although it may be justified in the case of an ensemble cast. However, in this case I would say there is a clear distinction between the first two names and the ones that follow. Natascha McElhone and Steven Love seem to be positioned as the stars, so personally I would confine the infobox to those two names and put the rest in the cast list. Betty Logan (talk) 23:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, somebody needs to pop in and do that, then, because I'm not willing to keep arguing with the other user without backup. Bearcat (talk) 14:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Now that you've received verification that we don't have to list every name on the billing poster, perhaps begin a talk page discussion at that article. Others here could weigh in if needed. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, while I think all regular Film project editors would agree from a guideline perspective that we don't need to add all the names in the billing block (nobody has dissented so far), we may have different ideas where the names should be cut off in this particular instance. If there were a discussion at the Carmen article I would be happy to chip in. Betty Logan (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

How to categorize reviews at Rotten Tomatoes

There is a dispute at Talk:The Angry Birds Movie#Rotten tomatoes "negative" or "mixed" over whether to describe a "rotten" rating as "negative" or "mixed". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)