:::And you think that someone will do that experiment 520 days and without gravitiy? --<span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 15:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
:::And you think that someone will do that experiment 520 days and without gravitiy? --<span style=font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'><font color=orange>[[User:GreatOrangePumpkin|♫GoP♫]]</font></span><sub>[[User talk:GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>T</font>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/GreatOrangePumpkin|<font color=red>C</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:NewPages|<font color=red>N</font>]]</sup> 15:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
::::Are you suggesting that playing spacemen in a lot more attractive than the reality? Where does that leave the validity of the "experiment"? [[Special:Contributions/87.114.207.101|87.114.207.101]] ([[User talk:87.114.207.101|talk]]) 15:57, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
::::Are you suggesting that playing spacemen in a lot more attractive than the reality? Where does that leave the validity of the "experiment"? [[Special:Contributions/87.114.207.101|87.114.207.101]] ([[User talk:87.114.207.101|talk]]) 15:57, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I have to say I was amazed this got posted too. The criticisms of this exercise have been widely made, are substantial, and are not anywhere near as easily dismissed as it has attempted to be made out above. The lack of gravity ''is'' a major shortcoming, as is the lack of danger: these invalidate large parts of the human factors that are the supposed goal of the project. Even the crew is artificial - does anyone seriously suppose it would be politically acceptable to exclude women from the mission when hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars would have been spent on a real mission? When you consider the large number of science stories that don't get posted this seems totally out of place. In a hundred years who is going to care about the dubious results of this experiment in the slightest? [[User:Flying Llamas|Flying Llamas]] ([[User talk:Flying Llamas|talk]]) 17:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
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Support in principle, particularly since I think there has been a gap since anything was posted relating to South America. But the article is not ready. For such a significant figure, it is very sketchy. --FormerIP (talk) 11:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I discovered this news and thought it was something that would be great for the ITN section. Chemistry rarely has anything this noteworthy. --Found5dollar (talk) 03:14, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The official naming of elements is usually a few years apart, thus why new elements are an ITN/R item for both discovery and name confirmation. Until now it was listed under a different name in periodic tables. Elements are of top importance to science, and every student will hear of them, so this makes great news. Mamyles (talk) 03:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ready Apparently, the official naming of "new" elements is ITN/R. The articles are very comprehensive even if the updates about the naming are understandably brief. DeterenceTalk04:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note that ITN/R only specifically mentions the official naming by IUPAC (the chemistry organisation) and not IUPAP (the physics organisation). In this instance it is the IUPAP naming, IUPAC naming of the elements occurred earlier (I think). For example we previously featured the IUPAC naming of Copernicium in February - Dumelow (talk) 15:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't objecting, just saw this crop up at wp:errors and wanted to clarify the situation here with regards to the exact wording of ITN/R (I have no opinion on whether to change ITN/R to cover IUPAP as well, might be worth discussing) - Dumelow (talk) 16:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support pending update of the article (and this event actually occurring). There is little doubt that such an event would be a leading news story in every international media outlet around the Western world. DeterenceTalk12:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He has offered to resign before, but it was not accepted. [1] There is no reason to suggest another instance would be different, but if the resignation is accepted it would be notable. Mamyles (talk) 13:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update The BBC now reports that earlier reports of Papandreou's impending resignation may have been premature: "Earlier the BBC reported that the PM was preparing to resign. But state TV reported that he had ruled this out during the meeting." DeterenceTalk14:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment AP is reporting that the europackage referendum, announced only on Monday, has been canceled. Very fast developments here, exercise caution.. --hydrox (talk) 15:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm not sure "Bankrupt country's leader stays the same" is very noteworthy in the scheme of long-term important news. Mamyles (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Obviously. Politicians, bankers, international financiers and anyone who hasn't been living under a rock will have been waiting for the outcome of this vote. DeterenceTalk23:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Lack of news is not news. There's no story in a cabinet weathering a vote of confidence; happens every day around the world even for much more powerful governments. --hydrox (talk) 02:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
update blurb with the article that has a massive update. and marking ready.
As an aside, i agree with Hydrox. Wait gfor the new government amid the calls for the election in 2012 (which finmin already says will happen after the 4 month govt passes the bailout bill.)Lihaas (talk) 10:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
[Posted] Paul Biya sworn in as President of Cameroon
As much as I'd want to see an article about an African election where the incumbent won (happens 99% of the time), I'd imagine the update wasn't enough. –HTD14:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The FSB is a body tasked with co-ordinating global efforts to set regulations and to prevent future financial meltdowns, like the one that put us where we are today. It recently has been given more power by the G20 leaders to make it more effective at ensuring that governments implement reforms as promised. --NaturalRX18:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ordinarily, the appointment of another nobody to an international quango no one has heard of wouldn't raise much (any) interest. But, these are not ordinary times. Given the preeminence given to the FSB at the G-20, this organisation looks like it will have a significant role in international finance, and reforms and regulation thereof, in the future. Btw, I don't think this is ITN/R. DeterenceTalk21:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: We have discussed this at the moment of Mars landing simulation and agreed to wait until the end of the experiment. Overall on the notability of the event, it is the largest manned Mars flight experiment of such scale and duration and must be one of the most significant spaceflight experiments in general. GreyHoodTalk12:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support beyond any question an important event; "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind" might fit here.--♫GoP♫TCN13:20, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - for being a mock-up, it is quite interesting. The amount of detail for the experiment is staggering. I've edited the blurb to bold the main article. Mamyles (talk) 13:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Hey, but it was just a land-based psychological experiment easily within the means of just about everybody determined enough, not even the first of its kind, what kind of leap is GreatOrange Pumpking taking about? This is not yet April Fools' Day. Colchicum (talk) 13:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first and maybe last experiment of its type. 520 days is not short. The first was 15 day and the second 105 day. That's why it is called "MARS-500".--♫GoP♫TCN14:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Colchicum, if one of us just sits 500 days in total recluse somewhere and then claims to be psychologically able to fly to Mars, this is not a scientific experiment. But modelling every detail of the journey, from the spaceship cabin and on-board activities to Mars landing, for one and a half year, is a highly significant and professional experiment. GreyHoodTalk14:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it is easy to overstate the significance of this. The value of the whole experiment has repeatedly been called into question [2] an various aspects have been exceeded in one way or another. I'm reminded of the Biosphere 2 experiments where the subjects were locked away for a full two years or indeed the current space endurance record (Valeri Polyakov at 417 days) - a shorter time yes, but in zero gravity and with the added psychological factor of being in permanent danger, as would be experienced in a real Mars mission. There's no question this experiment has got a certain amount of publicity, but I'd hardly call it some kind of giant step forward. Crispmuncher (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Not specifically, but both were explicitly intended as tests of technologies for interplanetary travel. The precise simulated target is by and large of secondary importance. Are we really supposing they would disregard the "results" of this study if the intention was e.g. a Venus flyby instead of a Mars landing. Crispmuncher (talk) 03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Comment: As others have noted, this is not some kind of great scientific experiment, this is being advertised as such so they can have more funds. Submarine crews, people working in Antarctica stay in confined and hostile environment for longer periods. The thing about space is that the most important element was missing; Weightlessness affects your psychology, muscles, blood circulation, bones etc. Just staying in a room for 20 years is absolutely not a simulation of long space journeys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tachfin (talk • contribs) 20:06, November 4 2011
I dont know why you (and some people above) would assume there will be weightlessness... The proposed design (so far) all produce artificial gravity. This test wasnt about whether you can survive in antarctic's hostile enviornment (spaceships are not necessarily hostile), it was whether you can take a long ass trip in space. Not the same thing -- Ashish-g5520:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have you checked the heading of the section? Of course people know that is the aim. They couldn't have got here without seeing it. HiLo48 (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've written the heading myself ;) It seems however some people think it is just a kind of prolonged survival and psychological experiment and judge it as such. These are important aspects, but not the main ones. GreyHoodTalk21:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen any serious proposal (i.e something that could be done in the next 50 years instead of a purely conceptual exercise) that would allow for simulated gravity en route. Crispmuncher (talk) 03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]
All exercises are conceptual!!! nothing has been built yet obviously. But from what i know designs include spinning of structure to use centrifugal force as artificial gravity. General Relativity 101... I dont think im qualified enough to make further comment since im not in that field but you not having seen any such proposal is really not a good argument -- Ashish-g5503:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Testing how humans live for a long time without gravity is not really important after plenty of long spaceflights on Mir and ISS. The experiment was about Mars flight, testing how people communicate when signals go for minutes between Earth and spaceship, how they deal with technical problems when they know they would not recieve any support from Earth, etc. GreyHoodTalk13:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm really torn about this. On the one hand, we haven't had an update in ages. On the other, the update is poor, and wouldn't usually be accepted. -- tariqabjotu09:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose after the fact. I cannot believe wikipedia has gone in for publicizing this kind of junk science that has been that has been widely ridiculed for completely ignoring key elements. As discussed above any real Mars-shot proposal anticipates zero gravity en route - please don't distort the argument by proposing 2001-style arrangements that the professionals are not, and that have very real practical difficulties. Where is the psychological value of simulating a mission where the occupants are trapped on board and in constant danger in a form where the subjects are free to leave at any time and are perfectly safe at all times? This is PR stunt, not science, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for posting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.207.101 (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is a key factor. On previous long duration space flights the crewmember has been incapacitated on their return to Earth and in need of considerable physiotherapy to rebuild muscle mass, even with the orbital exercise regime. A Mars mission involves a long-duration space flight followed by a landing on Mars and the crew are expected to be immediately capable to work. Mars' gravity may be lower than Earth's but it is still quite strong and this is a big concern. Not addressed here at all. Neither are the risks of radiation or solar flares or other innumerable difficulties. Instead people go on about psychological issues and how they would cope with technical difficulties in comparative isolation from Earth - difficulties that are purely an intellectual exercise in this experiment, but place the crew in mortal danger in a real mission. However you spin this the experiment is far too limited to be of any practical relevance. You can earn a lot more about these issue by studying other environments where people are isolated and in real rather than imaginary danger - in the Antartic, deep underground or on mountain tops for example. 87.114.207.101 (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I have to say I was amazed this got posted too. The criticisms of this exercise have been widely made, are substantial, and are not anywhere near as easily dismissed as it has attempted to be made out above. The lack of gravity is a major shortcoming, as is the lack of danger: these invalidate large parts of the human factors that are the supposed goal of the project. Even the crew is artificial - does anyone seriously suppose it would be politically acceptable to exclude women from the mission when hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars would have been spent on a real mission? When you consider the large number of science stories that don't get posted this seems totally out of place. In a hundred years who is going to care about the dubious results of this experiment in the slightest? Flying Llamas (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At least 20 people and 13 soldiers are killed in ongoing fighting in the city of Homs. (Reuters)
President of SyriaBashar al-Assad agrees with the Arab League to end the crackdown on the uprising in Syria, releasing political prisoners and allowing international news agencies back into Syria. (CNN)
Nominator's comments: I'd normally be the last to nominate a surfing item but this seems unusually noteworthy; though a decent update needs to be made. There's some talk in the Australian press of Slater being one of the 'greatest ever' sportsmen even. --Johnsemlak (talk) 14:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose although there are plenty of surf wannabes all over the world, how many people are really interested in surfing as a spectator sport or take it seriously as a sport compared to something like cricket, rugby, baseball. Therefore I consider this a minority topic. My vote is based on that if this going to appeal to a wide scope of people which is what ITN is. Donnie Park (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle (ie subject to the article being good enough). I would certainly not advocate that this be ITNR. But Slater's is an extraordinary achievement and is rightly receiving an extraordinary degree of press coverage (at least where I live). --Mkativerata (talk) 19:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - minority sport and hardly noteworthy in sporting news anyway, localized press coverage is not wide, little interest outside the US at any rate. --Nutthida (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Plenty of media coverage in my part of the world. Claiming this to be a minority sport obviously depends on one's persperctive. And Slater is an extraordinary standout in this sport. The number of times he has won makes this highly notable. [Maybe "Kelly Slater wins World Surfing title again" should be the ITN/R item ;-) ] HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as this is both interesting and notable. That it's a minority sport shouldn't harm the nomination, as even a minority deserves occasional mention. Mamyles (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please note the comment at the top of the page... "Do not add simple "support" or "oppose" votes. Explain the reasons whyyouthink the item meets or does not meet the ITN inclusion criteria..." Otherwise, it's just a vote, and we don't do that here. HiLo48 (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I personally have no problem with that, and occasionally do it myself. The 'per user' means you have the same reasoning, and it would make little sense to paraphrase exactly what was already said. Mamyles (talk) 02:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is just bizarre. Since pro surfing appears incapable of running an organized competition, it seems to me it's not notable enough to post (oh, wait, we post FIFA stuff, never mind).--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Sounds very interesting and I will surely support if something more serious happens. Probably this will be following with proceedings against the convicted, that will end with reasonable conclusion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support No need to wait for the convictions. The guilty verdicts are enough. Note that there is also a guilty plea by a third Pakistani cricketer which had been suppressed until these verdicts were announced. So we have three international athletes guilty of cheating at the highest level. This is massive news in cricket, and really for any international sport where betting occurs. HiLo48 (talk) 22:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. There is no advantage in awaiting sentencing. The notable event is the convictions themselves - the sentences simply add a little flavour. DeterenceTalk01:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Given that sentencing is due today, and will probably up the notability somewhat (an international sports captain may well go to prison for cheating), I'd say wait a few hours. Having said that I would support posting after sentencing pretty much regardless of what the sentences are.ReadingOldBoy (talk) 10:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support once articles are updated and sentences doled out; nothing unexpected, but a captain of a major cricketing nation like Pakistan getting convicted is huge news. Lynch718:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Four men are arrested in the U.S. state of Georgia for plotting to kill government officials with explosives and the toxic substance ricin. (Washington Post)
Nominator's comments: Summit over a few days ago and wholly sourced, red timer above and we can add it to the 2nd last ITN or so. Lihaas (talk) 09:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ready This appears to be ITN/R, so I have voted Ready instead of Support. Update, per the heads-up provided by HTD below: while I support the nomination of CHOGM, and support the inclusion of CHOGM in ITN/R, this particular nomination comes with a somewhat dubious pedigree, (to put it mildly). DeterenceTalk10:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Support - major international event. If there is disquiet among regulars here about the nomination process, perhaps they could share it with the rest of us, if they think it should affect the decision process. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did i claim it to be ITNR...i duly mentioned the same on the talk page. Andother editors did make bold additions both inj the past and recently (per the space exploration) Refrain from NPAs and comment on CONTENT.Lihaas (talk) 16:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ummm, i didnt nom it as ITNR GROW UP AND TaKE YOUR THUMB OUT OF YOUR MOUTH dear da-da-goo-goo' discussion does not mean NPA. which was mentioned in what you replied to! or is that difficult to drill in? Instead of crying/sulking you can DISCUSS it on talk.Lihaas (talk) 17:49, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Nearly updated.Will take suggestions on an improved blurb. The protest was estimated at 7000 persons. I can't find a figure on how much shutting down the port will cost the city but that may be a notable figure. --Johnsemlak (talk) 08:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support This protest reflects a dramatic escalation of events after local law enforcement sent in riot police using batons and tear-gas against an otherwise insignificant "occupy" sit-in by a relative handful of protesters. For those demanding a noteworthy trigger before posting an ITN item about the "occupy" protests, short of fatalities, it doesn't get much more noteworthy than this. I'll bet my left nut that this doesn't get posted. DeterenceTalk08:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
conditional oppose merge with the other protests (big one in tokoy recently) Or have a sticky for 2011 protests, and boy are there plenty this year.
Oppose One significant element of a large protest movement, as such it amounts to nothing more than "a little local difficulty". Not notable in the wider context doktorbwordsdeeds09:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - while a general strike is rare in the US, it has been done before in Oakland. I don't think this development is worth featuring, as a small part of the nation's occupy protests. Mamyles (talk) 12:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Really - they closed a major port, and the police responded with force! I don't understand the overt resistance to posting "Occupy" articles on ITN. It's either "not significant", or a "local problem". The conviction of some former PM of the Ukraine is a local problem, the worlds longest guided busway is a local problem, for crying out loud, a "cricket fixing scandal" made ITN but not riots and tear gas and a general strike in a major American City. What the hell?!? --76.18.43.253 (talk) 02:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I knew immediately after clicking save that someone would fixate on the "America" part. Of course, if 7000 were rioting in Mar Del Plata or in Conakry it would be front page news here, but since it's in America, we need to keep a "world view" and cover a cricket scandal instead. So I struck "america", will you please address the other concerns and stop trolling? --76.18.43.253 (talk) 11:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are you seriously suggesting that all 7,000 participants in the Occupy Oakland who shut-down the port are "'civil disobedience' fanatics"? How about the countless thousands of "occupy" protesters in the (literally) hundreds of cities around the world, are they all "'civil disobedience' fanatics", too? For a guy who constantly preaches about POV-pushing, that is an extraordinarily polemic stance you are taking. DeterenceTalk08:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't the 7,000 participants who shut down the port, although they might have had that intention. It was a small number of protesters - most likely the same anarchists who are smashing windows and starting fires downtown - who decided to barge in the port and endanger the lives of the very workers who they claim to be fighting for. That was why the port was closed.
As someone who has witnessed firsthand the violent persecution of thousands of men and women at the hands of "anti-capitalist" revolutionaries who chanted the same slogans and engaged in the same tactics as some of these protesters, I don't particularly care if you think I'm POV-pushing. Fanatics are fanatics, and ITN should not serve as a propaganda tool for their "victories".JimSukwutput16:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose These events are hard to assess. There have been Occupy protests in hundreds of cities all around the world. Many have involved disruption to local business and alleged police brutality. I could not possibly claim to know enough about all the others in the world nor have the arrogance to claim that the one in my city was more significant than all the others. Do those supporting this nomination really know enough about all the others to make that comparison? HiLo48 (talk) 11:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose The Occupy Oakland protest did shut down the port, but it doesn't have any real historical significance and mainly the impacts of it were centered only in the Bay Area, and it isn't really of "international importance". HurricaneFan2517:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Ready As ITN/R, the only question is whether the article is ready. While it could use some more substantive content - especially regarding the actual agenda - that will likely come along as the summit proceeds. DeterenceTalk07:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support immediate posting. The event is the news, and it should be posted whether or not progress is made. The article is ready. Mamyles (talk) 13:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Not only a notable conviction, but also a significant issue in U.S.-Russia relations. Bout is said to have connections to the Russian government. --Colchicum (talk) 01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Yeah Lihaas, he won't be sentenced for awhile. ITN has posted figures for simply being indicted. Blurb should be updated that actually enumerates what he was convicted for. I think conspiring to kill Americans if i can remember. WikifanBe nice05:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support pending update of the article to include details of the agreement. But, I don't hold out much hope of this making it into ITN given its current nonsensical editorial climate where news about bloody basketball rakes in significantly more support than anything about Syria's civil war or even Earth-shattering news about Europe's debt crisis. DeterenceTalk20:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you just want to stir up trouble, go back to the playground. There is a story about Europe's debt crisis on ITN right now, while the story about the NBA lockout has no support whatsoever. Do us a favor, and at least base your superfluous, unsought commentary on facts. -- tariqabjotu21:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. This place has become bloody ridiculous. The biggest news stories in the world are being roundly ignored while idiotic sports and anything American (so long as it doesn't have the word "occupy" in it) is speedy-posted. It's pathetic. DeterenceTalk22:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's good to have a discussion like this here. Take it to the talkpage please. Although, if I can also be allowed to be a hypocrite for a second, I think your vigilance about this is good, Deterence, but your anger is mostly misplaced. I do think that sometimes editors fail to appreciate that there is a world outside the US, but see this comment for an alternative view. Maybe the glass is half full. --FormerIP (talk) 23:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Right, although the World Series is on ITN now, there have been relatively few U.S. stories recently. Now is not the best time to claim ITN is U.S.-centric. -- tariqabjotu23:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because: 1-There is no article about the Arab league proposal 2-We can not predict the future as to the merits of such a proposal, might as well be one of those initiatives that instantly die out, as often is the case of the Arab league's. Tachfin (talk) 07:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't know why we're so cynical about "international agreements". Sure, some empty promises are made from time to time, but multinational agreements made with a supranational body like the Arab League tend to be pretty credible. It's a bit ridiculous to suggest that we wait for something "tangible" - what exactly are we waiting for? Should we go take a video of the tanks pulling out of the cities? JimSukwutput07:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Peace plans are meaningless if they don't result in any progress towards peace. Let me put it another way: after the UN Security Council passed Resolution 1973 which (amongst other things) demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, Gaddafi's government announced that they would comply. We could have posted this on ITN. Had we done so we would have looked very stupid in light of subsequent events. Hut 8.518:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the Syrian government practically broke its promises, it doesn't mean the peace agreement was not notable. For one thing, there will be much more enmity towards the Syrian government from other Arab states, and they might even support an international intervention if the Syrian government refuses to cooperate. Following your example, the Resolution 1973 was not effective in the short-term but it did form the legal basis of NATO intervention in Libya, which was obviously notable. JimSukwutput16:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Shenzhou 8 docks with Tiangong 1
Article:No article specified Blurb: Shenzhou 8 performs the first automated docking of a Chinese spacecraft with space station module Tiangong 1. (Post) News source(s):spaceflightnow.com Article needs updating
Strong Support: That was just the first module. The successful docking is a major deal. How many other countries/space agencies have managed this? This is front page news at least here in India. But yeah, article needs to be updated. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 20:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My point is not that the story is not significant, but that we ought to limit the frequency with which we report events which are part of the same space mission. --FormerIP (talk) 20:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Are we going to have a new ITN item every time the Chinese do something in space that the Americans and the Russians have already done countless times previously? And as FormerIP has pointed out, this is just a follow-up to an ITN item that was posted just last week. DeterenceTalk20:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Quite a bit of POV pushing in that comment there... And i just posted that this isnt so much a follow up rather 2 different events. This is a huge first for a big ass nation. And an event only attempted by 2 countries ever before... -- Ashish-g5522:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To answer Deterence, yes. The fact remains that only 2/3 space agencies have done this before. To take another example, when the Chinese put a rover on the surface of the Moon in 2013, it would be notable enough to be on ITN even though the Americans and Russians have done it several times before. Such achievements are not routine. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 05:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have absolutely no idea what POV I am supposed to be pushing here. And Chocolate Horlicks, this kind of event has been performed literally hundreds of times in the past. It is routine to the point where no media outlet would even consider mentioning such a mundane event if it were performed by the Russians or the Americans. DeterenceTalk07:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats a big if. The entire point here is that it is not US or Russia doing this, but rather a new country is able to do something which only two countries before this could. This is THE story on the BBC Asia page. To apply your logic, if any new country tests a nuclear device, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country puts a man in space, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country develops an ICBM, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before). Or take the example I used before, when China puts a rover on the moon in 2013 or when India does it in 2014 .. are you saying these wont be notable? The reason for notability in all of these cases is that some technological achievements have thus far been possible only to a select countries. Another country being able to do it is major news. And I just checked, "The launch of space stations or major components thereof" is ITN/R, so I dont even know why we are discussing notability here. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 07:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Chocolate Horlicks, a new country testing a nuclear device or developing an ICBM are notable events because the proliferation of WMDs and long-range delivery systems have serious political (and military) ramifications for us all. But, the automated docking of a spacecraft with space station module "by a new country" is about as notable as a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel - all the Chinese had to do was send a few exchange students to MIT to "discover" how it should be done. As for this being ITN/R, the "launch of space stations or major components thereof" event occurred last week, and was posted accordingly. At best, this is a mere update of that event. DeterenceTalk08:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Someone back me up here because this really doesn't need this much deliberation. You have conveniently ignored the two examples of the man-in-space and rover-on-moon even though they are closer to the subject matter. You've equated the automated docking of a spacecraft to a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel and claimed the only requirement for achieving this is apparently having exchange students at the MIT. Only nine countries can even conduct a space launch and only 3 countries do a space docking. Dont the other countries have enough exchange students to send to MIT? This is a major component of the space station, so this satisfies ITN/R independently of the Tiangong 1 launch as well. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 09:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the amount of disagreement here, ITN/R does not apply. That is for routine submissions that have minimal opposition. It can still be posted with traditional community consensus. Mamyles (talk) 13:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Deterence The POV i was referring to was ur view on us posting everything that china does that america/russia has done before. Just because a country has achieved something 3 decades ago doesnt make it non-notable for others. Especially given the long time-gap between them and the difficulty level. POV may not be correct term but it felt like that given the language style you used. -- Ashish-g5521:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a pointy technical achievement that would interest the specialists only. Furthermore, there is no article about the automated docking process, which indicates that it is not of general notability. This is better suited for DYK. Tachfin (talk) 07:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - First automated docking of a chinese spacecraft is not ITN material. While I congratulate China on the milestone, their space program was recently featured and this was first done decades ago. Mamyles (talk) 11:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Would support if there was a decent article or at least some detailed coverage in some article or other (ie more than a few additional sentences in Algiers). --FormerIP (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
CommentAs others have noted, we can't really support this without an article to support. A quality article is probably worth supporting, especially given the dearth of (positive) ITN items from Africa. Update: the suggestion that this nomination be forwarded to DYK seems sensible. DeterenceTalk20:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Without an article, I can't say either support or oppose, but I personally think an item like this is better suited for DYK. Plus there's a practically written hook, in that the metro took 28 years to build. SpencerT♦C23:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - there is actually an article, now linked in the blurb. Notable event, as this might be the most important infrastructure project in the history of a major capital. Pantherskin (talk) 05:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment They only completed one line of it (9 km), this event might be of regional notability but on the world scale I doubt it is. There is nothing unusual about this kind of projects taking a long time to complete in third world countries, there has been similar events in neighboring countries (Tramway in Rabat-Salé, Morocco) and weren't covered in ITN, and rightfully so I believe. Would make a good DYK though. Tachfin (talk) 07:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
support when updated, its a first there and 2nd in africa and took eons to make. some big deal...infrastructure promises can alleviate a possible algerian protest too..Lihaas (talk) 08:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I dislike the whole comparison the ITNR topics generally, as if to suggest consensus can be inherited from one subject to another by association. In this case I don't even feel it particularly appropriate: there is a world of difference on the English Wikipedia between English literature awards and French ones - the latter are clearly of less interest to the majority of or readership. Crispmuncher (talk) 17:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Nominator's comments: Both articles need updating at this stage. The Assange saga is clearly notable for its significant implications for the transparency of government, government accountability and the rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing. DeterenceTalk10:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've edited the nomination. If you think the remainder of the nomination if POV-pushing then I respectfully suggest that you're pushing a POV of your own. DeterenceTalk11:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is not news. Not from the start, the end, or anywhere in the middle. It certainly is not fit for the front page, where we tend to add the 'start' or the final conclusion of an event. This is just a legal hurdle, certanily not something worth the media hubris doktorbwordsdeeds11:25, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as others have said, it's simply another (not particularly interesting) chapter in an ongoing event. Lots more interesting things going on in the world. --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose now and for all. Since when did low-profile criminal deportations become ITN-worthy? Assange has received lots of attention regarding his public activities at WikiLeaks, but the quality of his and her companions' intimate undertakings in the country of Sweden are better left for the yellow press than the front page of an encyclopedia, as are the speculative conspiracy theories about the trial. --hydrox (talk) 11:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, and agreed with Mkativerata's comments on the nomination. The audacity it takes to suggest a conspiracy theory in a nomination and then claim that you have NPOV is incredible. JimSukwutput07:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The theory that Assange was targeted with sexual assault allegations only because of his activities in Wikileaks. What else could you mean by "significant implications for.. rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing"? I'm not saying that the theory is false. I haven't encountered significant evidence either way and frankly haven't been bothered to find out. But your support of this nomination based on this theory and then proceeding to claim that you're being neutral seems to me simply hypocritical. JimSukwutput16:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Asylum seekers boat disaster
Another one has sank off the coast of Australia. Up to 27 are believed to have drowned; I guess the death toll will be confirmed either today or tomorrow. Anyone up for starting an article? Nightw00:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment At this stage, this story seems to have barely registered with the media, and almost all of that is Australian media. I don't mean to sound callous, but these journeys, and such drownings, have become somewhat routine in recent years. Parallels can be seen with Cuban/Haitian/etc refugees who regularly drown on their way to Florida. DeterenceTalk01:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The United Kingdom Office for National Statistics releases GDP figures indicating growth of 0.5% compared to a 0.1% figure in the previous quarter. (BBC)
At least seven people are killed and 200 injured following an explosion caused by two trucks carrying explosives crashing in Fuquan City in China's Guizhou Province. (CNN)
China launches the unmanned Shenzhou 8 spacecraft, intending to robotically dock it with the orbiting Tiangong 1space station module. If successful, the mission will mark China's first orbital docking, and will be a major milestone in its efforts to construct a full-scale space station. (BBC)
obvious with the ITNR bit if and when updated. It was also agreed earlier when the nom was chosen but decided to postpone till he assumed office.Lihaas (talk) 08:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Today is supposedly the start of the NBA season but since the lockout is ongoing it won't. It's the 2nd time the regular start of the season is not held due to a labor dispute. –HTD12:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Similar to the Serie A strike that delayed it's season, and likely not ITNish. As with above, if the season should be canceled, I'd view it as a different story. Resolute14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is... surprising. I think you all are underestimating the significance of this. The NBA is essentially the world's premier basketball league, with the big bucks that go with the status. This is unlike, for example, Qantas, which is one of many national airlines. This is unlike, for example, the NFL lockout, which had no effect on regular-season games. I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now, but I do think this should be on ITN at some point, even if the entire season isn't cancelled. -- tariqabjotu21:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was likening it to the Qantas thing as well, and I think given we posted that we should logically post this too. It's obviously going to affect people. Haven't a clue what the blurb would be though. Nightw21:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I opposed the ITN posting about the Qantas lock-out for that very reason - it was just routine industrial action affecting one airline, and lasted about 5 minutes. Evidently, airplanes are one of those triggers that get people extra excited around here. DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I well remember the NHL lockout in 04-05. A league such as the NHL or the NBA cancelling a season outright is definitely a major story. The NBA postponing the start of the season is on a level with Serie A postponing the start of its season due to a players strike. Strikes and lockouts happen. Seasons get shortened as a result. It has happened easily a dozen times or more in North America's big four leagues alone over the last three decades or so. Something to post if ITN is having a slow news day, perhaps... Resolute23:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but the cancellation of an entire season is extremely rare. That may be the only time in history that that has ever occurred, certainly for a league at that level in its sport. The standards for putting up a story about a sports labor dispute are being placed astronomically high. That a lockout forces the delay of a season -- and particularly one like the NBA, which, unlike Serie A, is the single most prominent league in its sport -- is rare enough, and newsworthy enough, as it is. -- tariqabjotu01:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, and being one of the biggest hockey geeks on Wikipedia, would disagree for the NHL as well. Another aspect of this is that there isn't anything "breaking" about this news. The NBA has been cancelling games every couple weeks for over a month now. Nothing has changed in the situation, we've merely passed an arbitrary date. Resolute14:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Um, do you realize you're posting below a comment that includes the phrase "I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now..." My issue is that some people, and seemingly yourself included, think this should only stand a chance of going on ITN if the entire season is cancelled. I'm indifferent about whether this goes on ITN now or later, but it should be on ITN eventually. -- tariqabjotu15:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I did lose track of the first comments in this thread. Other than a cancellation of the season, the only other really logical point to post would be if there is a resolution to the lockout. I'll admit to being on the fence over that, but since it is only hypothetical at this point, there is time to consider it. Resolute17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose US-centric non-story about a minority sport. Not of interest to world-view audience. No notable personalities who would feature in a news story in their own right. doktorbwordsdeeds22:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point, but it's a bit harsh to call basketball a "minority sport". Quoting from the BBC, basketball is the "world's second most popular sport, played in more than 200 countries, and a multi-billion dollar industry". Jenks24 (talk) 23:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Doktorbuk. The only people who will care about this are the people who follow this ridiculous game, and we've had way too much sport in ITN as it is. DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Seriously, the above two opposes are about as baseless as you can get, mostly per Jenks24. Deterence, I give you credit for your reasoning that there's too much sport on ITN (to be honest, I can halfway empathize with that sentiment), but I feel it's seriously undermined by the flagrant opposition to the sport itself more than the story. In my opinion, this story is not ITN material yet, but certainly will be if the entire season is cancelled. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)23:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I, too, would support an ITN nomination if the entire season is cancelled. But, I'm not going to support an ITN posting about routine industrial action, be it in the basketball industry or the airline industry. DeterenceTalk02:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Whilst I think that a lockout in the most important competition in a globally-popular sport is indeed notable, and deserves a slot on ITN, is now really the best moment to do so? If it does get resolved before the end of the season, that would be a much better time for posting. And if it rumbles on so long that the whole season is cancelled, that too would be a more fitting moment. Modest Geniustalk10:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Tariqabjotu that the NBA lockout deserves a ITN mention, either when it finishes and some games are saved or if the NBA season gets canceled, or both the season gets canceled and when the lockout ends. A lockout in the most significant league of one of the world's most significant sports has an economic and social impact towards the game themselves. Now is not the time to post though, I'll agree, but this isn't a U.S centric sport, it has the same consequence if the English Premier League ever goes on a lockout. Secretaccount06:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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