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November 23

what to do when new family throw away valuble documents that eventually mean changing everything we ever knew of?

and also we are never told the truth about it and have to make educated guesses about absolutely everything even who we really are! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bombdiggydeathstar (talk • contribs) 00:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

• You may be interested in archive local history and family history. It is actually quite surprising how many trustworthy document sequences survive—in particular governments regularly hold series of documents on people in relation to tax, military service, births deaths and marriages, and similar document sets. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what "new family" refers to in the title of this section. Bus stop (talk) 00:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I would guess that means the family which adopted the OP, who then disposed of the birth-parent records. StuRat (talk) 05:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

And following on from that assumption... Depending on where you live and/or where you were born, you might have the right to see your birth-parent records once you reach a certain age (often 18 years old). Astronaut (talk) 05:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Glowing mammals

Are there any mammals that glow? 58.109.24.198 (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

There has been at least one mammal that has been made to glow (apparently now there are a few other species that have been treated in the same way). I'm not sure there are any naturally glowing mammals, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

There are none mentioned in our list of bioluminescent organisms. The closest thing to bioluminescence some mammals have developed naturally might be tapetum lucidum. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

It's said that horses sweat, gentlemen perspire and ladies glow. Ladies are mammals. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Most definitely. Edison (talk) 15:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Are there any other proven ways of causing a mammal to glow? 114.74.186.102 (talk) 16:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Does the perfect amount of a fine wine or whiskey count, lol? Heiro 19:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Something that has been observed in birds might be possible in mammals too. Around 1897 there began a series of reports of mysterious, glowing entities bobbing about low in the night sky in East Anglia. Several subsequent investigations, observations and encounters between about 1908 and the early 1920s demonstrated that the phenomenon was due to owls (several specimens were actually obtained) with patches of luminous feathers.

It was theorized that the owls (mostly Barn owls) were nesting or roosting in tree holes contaminated by "phosphorescent" or bioluminescent fungus (there are several kinds, some poisonous, notably Armillaria; some of the owls involved were clearly in poor health, one indeed was found in a dying state) which had transferred to their feathers. Similar instances were reported from Ireland and Spain. For full details see 'The Luminous Owls of Norfolk' by David W. Clarke on pp 50–58 of Fortean Studies Volume 1, Ed Steve Moore, John Brown Publishing, London 1994, ISBN 1-870870-557. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.23 (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This must be an example of a glowing mammal. (The box says that the cat food "makes the fur of your cat glow".) JIP | Talk 20:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

(And the last frame has "at night" as stage directions, and "go away" in its speech bubble). ---Sluzzelin talk 21:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I thought it would be obvious from the context, once the reader understood that the cat food made the fur of the cat glow. JIP | Talk 21:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes; if you believe the adage: "Horses sweat, men perspire and women glow". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Those who read threads will have already encountered this adage up above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

First female head of state of an African country

The main page today says Ellen Johnson Sirleaf is the "...first democratically elected female head of state of an African country". Was there an earlier female head of state of an African country (obviously, not democratically elected)? Astronaut (talk) 05:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Cleopatra? Rmhermen (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

And Nefertiti may have ruled quite a bit earlier than that (whether she ruled alone is open for debate). StuRat (talk) 05:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I meant in the modern political sense rather than ancient royalty. Though don't restrict it just to the title of "president" either. Astronaut (talk) 05:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If you count Madagascar as African (and the 19th century as not ancient), Queen Ranavalona I was quite well known. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.65 (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II was head of state of South Africa until 1961. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Elizabeth II was also head of state of independent Nigeria from 1960-63. Today she isn't head of state of any African nation. The unrecognised state of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) claimed Elizabeth II as their Queen in the late 60s, but she didn't accept this (since Britain refused to recognise its independence until it gave blacks equal rights). --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Commonwealth realm has more info. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If we are going to include English queens ruling over African colonies, we can surely go back further to Queen Victoria. However, I don't think the English had any African colonies back in the time of Elizabeth I. StuRat (talk) 05:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Portugal did. Ceuta was theirs until it was Spanish. So in Isabella II of Spain might count. Although she was a contemporary of Victoria. --JGGardiner (talk) 06:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The question is about independent countries, not colonies. Hence the British empire in Africa doesn't count, but the Commonwealth realms do. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't an exam. The question was actually somewhat vague which is why StuRat was able to muse about British Africa under Victoria, which predated the creation of African dominions. I just pointed out that Spain also had African territory and a Queen at the same time. That's why I was careful to say it "might count". I would also suggest that Spain's 19th Century African territories were only "colonies" under certain definitions and not others. Kind of like suggesting the Kola peninsula was a Russian colony and not merely Russian territory in Elizabeth's time. --JGGardiner (talk) 05:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Zewditu I was Empress of Ethiopia from 1916 to 1930. The article describes her as "The first woman head of an internationally recognized state in Africa in the 19th and 20th centuries". Not democratically elected, but interesting. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Carmen Pereira was the first female president from Africa. And the only one so far, except Sirleaf. --Soman (talk) 13:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Hatshepsut. She was preceded by other female monarchs but they were short-lived and they served only as regents/interim rulers. Hatshepsut's rule was longer and she ruled with full power as a male pharaoh.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 17:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

You missed the fourth line of this thread..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Oops. LOL. Was wondering why Nefertiti and Cleopatra were mentioned but not her. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 17:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

November 24

Mustard Oil

Is Mustard Oil considered "good oil" (meaning less saturated fat) or "bad oil" (meaning more saturated oil) and how in each case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.105.195 (talk) 01:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia article titled Mustard oil has a breakdown of the different types of fatty acid which makes it up. --Jayron32 01:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You would also need to know the ratios of the various fats of other oils, and have a concept of what ratios constitute 'good' and 'bad', to identify where on the spectrum mustard oil lies. Some information in this table - {{Comparison of cooking fats}}, and there are a range of foodstuffs, including oils, linked to from this page and which'll tend to give you values for each of the fats. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect School colors on schedule page

When I view the Pepperdine Waves basketball page for this year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011-12_Pepperdine_Waves_men%27s_basketball_team), I notice the colors on the roster are grey and white. When I check into the roster box, I see that it says teamcolors=y. When I look at the Pepperdine Waves page, I see the colors are blue and orange. So my question is why aren't the team colors showing up correctly on the school page? Every other WCC school doesn't have this problem. I can't find anything that's listed different on the school or the schedule page. Is there something that needs to be adjusted, will it not add the colors for a few days, or is there something else I'm missing? Bigddan11 (talk) 03:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't look as though anyone regularly serving as a virtual librarian on this Reference Desk is able to answer (or even understand) your query. These Reference Desks are really intended for factual queries about the world in general. Yours is more about a technical problem or anomaly with Wikipedia itself. You are more likely to get an answer - or corrective action - through asking at the Help Desk (which is about how to use and edit Wikipedia) or on the Technical Section of the Village Pump (which is for discussing aspects of how the site works). Both of those, by the way, are linked from Wikipedia's front page in the same area as the link to the Reference Desks. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.12 (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You never know who might be passing...

That page uses Template:CBB roster/Header - if "teamcolors" is set to "y", it will use the colours listed on two other pages, corresponding to the "team" parameter which, in this case, is "Pepperdine Waves". The two pages listing the colours are Template:CollegePrimaryHex and Template:CollegeSecondaryHex. However, there was no entry for Pepperdine Waves.

I have added entries [1] [2]. I could not find any information with exact colour codes, so I used standard Web colors for blue and orange.

Now, 2011-12 Pepperdine Waves men's basketball team is displaying an orange and blue roster.

Of course, anyone can edit the pages, if the colours are not correct.

(And the first response was quite true, too; you'd be better asking this type of question over on WP:HD, in future. I just happened to see it.)  Chzz  ►  06:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Understanding river stages

So, I live in the U.S. Southeast. On the local News program, they always show a graphic on the river stages. As an amateur kayak-er, I am interested in this info...but am unsure how to interpret it. For instance, the graph might show the following numbers: "Yazoo river 18 feet / +1.2 feet." OR "Mississippi river 20 feet / -.07 feet."

Now I am pretty sure the second number is the rise/fall in the water level, but what about the first number? Is the first number the level above sea level? The level of discharge? The level below flood stage? I'm embarrassed to ask other kayak-ers about this, so any help would be appreciated. Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 04:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I would think that's just the depth of the river, at a given checkpoint. Obviously the depth will vary over it's length, as it will tend to be narrow and deep in some places (possible whitewater) and wide and shallow in others (possible portages). StuRat (talk) 05:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

USGS has an explanation for stream stages. It's basically the height of the water surface above an arbitrary reference elevation (though it's usually the mean sea level). Geology.com also has explanations for different hydrographs.

There's an example for Devils Lake, North Dakota here. You can see the reference elevation is 1400 ft asl. The current water surface elevation is 1453.31 ft asl, thus the stage is 53.31 ft.

The + and - values are more mysterious though. Can you show an example graph? I think that's the difference between the last gauge measurement. i.e. "Yazoo river 18 feet / +1.2 feet" might mean Yazoo river currently has the stage of 18 ft, rising 1.2 ft from last measurement.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 05:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

What use is a baby?

Faraday was asked in the 1830's "What is the point of your work with Electricity? He replied "What use is a baby?" Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

And what is your question? Faraday is asking a rhetorical question. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday's point — which I think is rather obvious — was that electricity was in its infancy and had huge amounts of future potential. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Also if you run out of fuses babies are somewhat conductive Fifelfoo (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragoust. See A Modest Proposal. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

And you just know that someone will have to have WP:BEANS in there somewhere... Lemon_martini —Preceding undated comment added 18:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC).

See also Child labor, Child abduction, Baby farming, International adoption#Child trafficking or child laundering, Crack Baby Athletic Association, etc. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this yet another question about the purpose of life? (Hmm, I always seem to link to that via the redirect. Perhaps the page should be moved from "meaning" to "purpose", since people seem more concerned about purpose. Meaning of life#Popular views agrees.)  Card Zero  (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Too many of them is certainly a bad thing. Hence why I'm a conscientious objector to baby-making.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd always thought a conscientious objector to baby-making would be one who was concerned about overpopulation.--WaltCip (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a grave concern of mine.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 03:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday answered a question with another, inscrutable question. Given the date, I think it unlikely that Faraday could have anticipated even a fraction of the "huge amounts of future potential (a pun Mr98 ? I am not a pun resistor and I know you have the capacity to make them to induce hilarity.)" electricity had. Reasons: he was a theoretical physicist not an engineer, his induction experiments had led only to lab demonstrations and not to a useful machine at that time, the law

$\nabla \times \mathbf {E} =-{\frac {\partial \mathbf {B} }{\partial t}}$

named after Faraday would not yet have been brought into a unified electromagnetic theory by Maxwell who was only 4 years old in 1835, and Faraday was working with electric power sources of only low voltage and power i.e. chemical cells and the Faraday disc. Without foreknowledge of forceful electric machines, electric lighting (Edison 1879) or radio, what "baby" could Faraday have been thinking of? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps his meaning was that it is as pointless to ask why a scientist studies nature as it is to ask why humans reproduce. It is their nature to do so. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

That interpretation sounds like the response was an impatient put-down to the questioner. You may be right. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Faraday's lack of engineering knowledge certainly would not have kept him from thinking that electricity was potentially a very useful thing. One need not even anticipate a fraction of the whole thing to realize that there may be a whole thing out there, somewhere. I cannot anticipate even a fraction of what nanotechnology is going to accomplish, but it is clear that it has the potential to be a Big Deal in the next 100 years. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

program,armed forces radio,1967,Christmas in Milwuakie

As a young soldier in Vietnam I listened to this program.Two young ladies presented it.Please congratulate them in retrospect. Did they continue with careers in radio? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.162.29.159 (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

"Christmas in Milwaukee" was apparently put together by the Rho Tau Beta broadcasting fraternity at Marquette University in 1967. The Milwaukee Journal (January 10, 1968) has this article about the broadcast: "Recording by MU Touches Hearts of GI's". I was not able to locate the names of the presenters, but someone else here may have better luck. It doesn't look like Rho Tau Beta is still active, but presumably there is a student society under some new name which is heir to their activities and – possibly – records. The University's archives have a file on Rho Tau Beta as well ([3]), but I don't know whether that would be useful or not. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Crown prosecution service in UK extradition cases

Hi,

Why did the UK Crown prosecution service instruct the barrister for a Swedish prosecution authority in the High Court Assange extradition proceedings (related to an alleged crime which AFAIK was never prosecuted in the UK)?

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 17:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it's just the name of the case that's misleading; really, the respondent is the CPS because the case is whether or not the CPS should extradite him to Sweden. That's how I see it anyway. It is certainly common for the case names to be misleading in some fashion, not sure about the specifics of this case. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The extradition proceeding was not a determination of guilt or innocence. The Swedish prosecution service sought to present their case for extradition of Mr. A. in a British court. In this case the UK prosecution service was not itself a party since there was no crime in the UK, but it was qualified to direct the presentation of the Sweden's case to the court. N.B. Wikipedia is not qualified to advise in legal matters such as extraditions where proceedings are mainly based on precedent. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how this constitutes advice. You indented that as a reply to me, I wonder whether you clarify if there is any disagreement. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with your statement "the respondent is the CPS because the case is whether or not the CPS should extradite him to Sweden". The CPS in this case is just a servant of the court and has no opinion to be heard. My nota bene is meant to be a disclaimer that says no one here can or should try to offer guidance on this legal matter (the indent is not significant because that just restates the desk guidance heading). Questions seeking legal advice should be directed to an appropriate professional. I hope that clarifies what I posted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The party to this case is "The judicial authority in Sweden", not the Crown pro-se. The CPS acts because it is mandated to do so by the Extradition Act 2003. The act requires that it show the alleged acts would constitute offences in England and Wales, the CPS are obviously the qualified people to do so. What is unusual is that the CPS doesn't have client in the same way it usually does (the crown) but acts statutorily (see this Times article). A significant effect of that is that the normal test for prosecutions, whether the public interest is served, is not a factor it can consider (the Times writer is essentially saying it's running on autopilot). Another issue is that the UK bears the cost of extraditing someone to another country (at least another European country); this has led to some countries seeking to extradite their nationals from the UK for penny-ante issues (see this Economist article), things the CPS would likely not consider a cost-effective use of public money if they had the choice. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 21:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Dutch pastry

Resolved

I recall, some years ago, having a Dutch pastry at this time of year (St Nicholas' eve). It was like a sausage roll, but with marzipan instead of sausage-meat, so sweet, and served hot any idea what it was? Its not in Category:Dutch confectionery nor Category:Dutch cuisine. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe something like the Gevuld Speculaas I'm eating right now (here's the picture from the nl:Speculaas article). Didn't know it was supposed to be eaten warm. Astronaut (talk) 18:42, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, but no, that's not it (though it looks delicious). What I mean looks like this, only longer. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You mean like a cannoli but eaten warm? Cannoli are an Italian desert, traditionally, but perhaps there is a similar Dutch desert... --Jayron32 20:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The thing in the picture doesn't look like a cannoli. It looks more like a sort of pasty or pierogi. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Pasties are turnovers (halfmoon or triangle shaped, and the size of a hand). Pierogis are smaller and roughly similar to ravioli or potstickers. The OP linked a cylindrical tube filled with meat, open at both ends. They also indicated that the desert they sought was a similar tube filled with a sweet substance like marzipan. A pastry tube filled with such cream is a cannoli in Italian. A similar french pastry may be an eclair though the tube is of a very different pastry than a cannoli is. Neither of this is like a pasty; if someone told a desert looked like a sweet pasty I would send them to Turnover (food) and if they said it was a desert shaped like a pierogi I'm not sure what I would have mentioned. But a cannoli is the same shape as the food they showed. --Jayron32 00:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The image from Andy looks nothing like a pieróg (singular of pierogi), and if it's supposed to be even longer it would be something entirely different. More of a cheburek (rather the Ukrainian variant), but these don't come sweet, they're only savoury, but it's still way off. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

You Phillistines! Do you know nothing of huate cuisine? The linked picture is of a British Sausage roll - surely one of the world's great delicacies. Alansplodge (talk) 12:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

No, we only know of haute cuisine. 194.100.223.164 (talk) 11:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

My comparison was not so much the actual exact look but a reference to the type of ingredients used, namely a shortcrust pastry with filling, which creates a soft crust, as opposed to the cannoli, which applies a dry pastry that hardens into a crunchy shell when baked. The comparison to the eclair is probably more apt. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh. Okay then. But it seems that Alansplodge had solved the picture bit. And as for pierogi, the cooked (soft) version is, how shall i put this, default. you can get baked ones, but they're obviously made with different dough, are larger, but everything else (general form and idea behind this wonderful, tasty delicacy (nods at Alansplodge)) remains unchanged. --Ouro (blah blah) 16:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Banket would be my guess. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I asked a Dutch colleague whether my Gevuld Speculaas should be eaten warm. He said no, but then described something similar called Speculaas Staaf as being "filled with almond paste, shaped like a sausage and usually eaten warm". Astronaut (talk) 10:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a recipe. Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, .200, that's the one - there's a picture at [4], which also calls them "Banketstaaf". Google Images finds lots more pictures under the latter name. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Vitamin K

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Trucks or lorries in private personal use?

Are there any trucks or lorries in private personal use, where someone just likes to drive one, and does not provide transport as a professional service? JIP | Talk 22:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

• Chris_Eubank#Career_beyond_boxing - "a huge American Peterbilt 379 truck cab". --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It's got a personalised number plate as well (shame he can't spell).[5]--Aspro (talk) 23:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It reads like that because it's not actually a personalised number plate but a normal one that happens to almost spell his name, i.e. CHR 111 S. --Viennese Waltz 06:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Some Vintage lorry enthusiasts keep on trucking in Ireland. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I have occasionally attended Steam Fairs and Rallies (What, no general articles? Oh, there's this one.) in the UK, like the Great Dorset Steam Fair. As you'll see in that article's Exhibits section, 'vintage' commercial (internal combustion) vehicles are also shown, including lorries, and something not mentioned are the exhibits of old military vehicles from WW2 or sometimes earlier, usually restored to their wartime condition, which also include trucks/lorries. Most such vehicles appear to be owned and maintained (in roadworthy condition for the most part) by private enthusiasts: I believe a few owners may sometimes defray some of the not inconsiderable costs in time and money required by their hobby by making their vehicles available for period TV and film shoots, but for them this does not amount to a profitable commercial enterprise. Some owners, typically Old Age Pensioners unconstrained by job commitments, spend their summer travelling from fair to fair in the UK and Europe as a sort of extended caravan holiday. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.12 (talk) 23:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Some people use them as campers or to haul horses, boats, etc: [6], [7] 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I've got a 1985 7.5 tonne Leyland Roadrunner Horsebox for personal use. I can drive it on my normal car licence because I passed it some time ago. Now you have to take an extra test to drive vehicles exceeding 3.5 tonnes. It's an easy drive, good turning circle but I do find that I am overstrong with the clutch in my car after I've been driving the lorry!!

Are there, then, any trucks with trailers in private personal use? All I've seen from those links provided are just the tractor cars. JIP | Talk 13:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The trailer's only purpose is to ferry goods around. Don't you think its highly unlikely to be needed for one's weekly shop at the supermarket? Having said that, a certain butler ( aka Angelo Muscat) et. al., did find that his Scammell Highwayman low loader, very useful for his escape from Wales – and who can blame him? Thinks... He must have been sitting on a box, in order to see over the steering wheel.--Aspro (talk) 19:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a friend that owns a box truck personally. He used to own a business which has since folded, but he kept the truck. He's popular when people are moving, or buy an appliance, or helping people build decks, or stuff like that. But he does own it, and not for any business purposes currently. --Jayron32 19:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

How about going for a Sunday afternoon run in the countryside in one of these. [8] or this guy doing the school run ? [9]. Not being left enough room to park by other drivers is hardly going to be a problem, is it? --Aspro (talk) 21:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is also an old lady that resides in Windsor that even has her own train. That must beat a 40 ton Arctic any day--Aspro (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

November 25

deal or no deal

if u won the million dallors on deal or no deal how much of it do u realy get — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gar113 (talk • contribs) 02:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

It depends on how much you would have to pay in state and federal taxes (assuming you mean in the U.S.) --Jayron32 03:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

According to "Financial Secrets of Game Shows: Advice From Past Winners", about 60% or $600,000 after taxes if you're an American (unless you're in some weird tax bracket). Maybe all of it if you're a Canadian on the American version, after a tussle with the IRS that is (see Doug Hicton in the same article). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

(EC with all above.) This seems to be an unclear question. If you win a million dollars normally you would expect to get 1 million dollars (unless it's a spam win). At most, perhaps the transfer to your bank will result in some small fees taken from the original amount which for such a large win would be too insignificant to be relevant. Some countries may tax such wins but this will depend on the country. Do you have the situation in a specific country in mind?

The UK obviously does not use dollars so I guess you aren't referring to the UK version. The New Zealand version never offered a 1 million prize so I guess you aren't referring to that version either. The Australian version did once a while ago but since it's not the norm I would guess you're not referring to that version either. The Canadian version did have a million dollar prize although it's no longer produced. In countries like Australia [10] [11], and I believe Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom [12], normal contestants aren't generaly subject to income tax for one off wins. (Professional contestants and those who receive appearance fees may be taxed.) The Canadian version article specifically mentions the winnings are tax free.

The older US version did have a $1 million prize. And I believe the US does subject even such one off wins to income tax. However, I'm not sure if the company actually witholds an amount for taxation purposes. Possibly they do not in which case you will still get 1 million dollars or thereabouts, but also a hefty tax bill later. Since the US has a progressive income tax structure, the precise amount you will pay will depend somewhat on how much you earned besides the prize, if you earned nothing else the amount is likely to be less then if you have an annual income of $1 million before the prize.

Nil Einne (talk) 03:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The above ref suggests state tax may be witheld in the US, and seems to imply federal tax may be witheld from the Doug Hicton case although isn't so clear on that point. Nil Einne (talk) 04:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

If you were a UK citizen or a visitor from Canada, Australia etc. temporarily in the USA, would you get the full million? Conversely, if an American citizen wins a million in the UK version, are they liable for state and federal taxes in the USA on their British winnings? Dbfirs 10:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

All these countries have tax treaties with one another. So even if the income isn't taxed in the US, the gameshow company reports it to the IRS which shares it with the corresponding tax authorities in other countries. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 19:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

So does that mean that the IRS in the USA would tax an American's winnings in the British game, but HMRC would not tax a British person's winnings in the American game? Dbfirs 23:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the tax treaties are reciprocal. The essence of them is that countries share information, but in exchange taxpayers in one country who have income in the other are only taxed on the same money once - that is, if you earn $1000 in the US and pay say 20% US income tax, when your UK taxes are assessed the amount of tax the US took taken into account. People may have to pay a topup (as the parties are not tax harmonised) and the details of a specific transaction are hellaciously complicated, but it's in the interest of both countries to at once facilitate trade while preventing the other from being used as a tax haven. The UK's National Lottery's prizes are tax free, but I've no idea how that works for non-residents or other people with complicated tax affairs. Didn't I read recently that someone was denied his winnings in a US state lottery because he wasn't a US resident and and used a relative who was to file the claim, but got found out (implying whichever US lottery that was has a residency restriction)? -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

This google search I did regarding taxation of foreigners who win money in Vegas indicates that federal income tax is withheld at a rate of 30% on winnings automatically for foreign players; presumably similar rules work for game shows and other sorts of winnings as well (note that withholding of the tax is not the same as paying the tax in the U.S. In the U.S. one's anticipated taxes are withheld from one's income and held in escrow until tax forms are filed where the exact tax owed is calculated; taxes are taken out of the escrow, U.S. taxpayers then either have to pay off any shortfalls, or receive back how much they over-withheld.) --Jayron32 00:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The above ref provided by Clarityfiend suggests in the case of a foreign resident simply visiting the US, some taxes may be witheld but you may be able to get them back if you try hard enough. Which is likely worth it if you win $1 million. Of course you will then need to deal with your local authorities taxes, as I mentioned, in the case of Australia and from the Clarityfiend ref I think we can also confirm Canada, and I still suspect NZ and the UK, you're not likely to have to pay income tax on a one off winning if you're just a ordinary contestant. If you're actual resident in the US even if not a citizen, you're potentially a tax resident in the US so may not be able to do this. I have no idea how things would work if you were a tax resident but it's the beginning of the tax year and you return to your home country to live after winning. If you're a US citizen who visits one of the other countries and wins, you'll probably have no choice but report your winnings to the IRS in the US and pay tax unless you want to end up like this guy. I suspect if you're a US citizen resident in one of those countries, you're still going to have to pay tax to the IRS since unlike nearly every other country, the US doesn't care about tax residency for their citizens. So your only fallback is double taxation and other such treaties Finlay McWalter mentioned and these are unlikely to cover a case where no tax was due in the country of residence but where the IRS considers tax is due. It may seem the moral of all this is if you plan to win in a gameshow, don't live in the US and don't be a US citizen, but US$400,000 (rough after tax winnings of the US$1 million prize) is still more then AU$200,000. Nil Einne (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

... in fact almost AU$400,000 Dbfirs 22:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Video for Deploying Lifeboats

Hey everyone, I'm writing a book that deals with an incident where the characters are trying to deploy lifeboats. I was wondering if anyone could find a video or instructions how to deploy lifeboats. Now, I don't mean the lifeboats where they are deployed and then a smaller boat brings the inflatable boat to safety. I mean these ones, that are lowered into the water and the people inside boat themselves to safety. A video of the actual lifeboat being lowered into water doesn't really help. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 64.229.180.189 (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I just Googled for 'how to deploy a lifeboat' or 'how to deploy lifeboats' (and other combinations with verbs like use or utilise... have you tried this? I also found pages of manufacturers, like this or this with specs and others. --Ouro (blah blah) 09:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This video shows what not to do with a lifeboard (premature emission!). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Both movies that I have seen dealing with the Titanic have shown lifeboat operations in some detail. If I remember correctly, Titanic (1997 film) has a better depiction than A Night to Remember (1958 film). Astronaut (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This film from the former Royal Navy boys' training establishment HMS Ganges shows the traditional method. This film shows a rather more ceremonial version. This video shows a modern passenger ferry - the lowering seems to be fully mechanised. Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Expansion project

Why don't you sell a version for portable devices to generate income? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.24.43.83 (talk) 10:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Probably because due to Wikipedia's generous licencing terms, there's nothing to stop other people offering free versions of Wikipedia for mobile devices, and it would be bad business to try and sell something that other people could offer for free. If you want to use a mobile version, you can still make a donation. (Edited to add: Also, Wikimedia's goal is to produce educational content available as widely as possible[13], and this would not be met by selling access when it could be provided for free.)

However, this discussion probably belongs on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) rather than the Reference Desk, which is not for discussing Wikipedia but for answering non-Wikipedia-related factual questions. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I hope you mean that the Ref. desks answer Wikipedia-related factual questions.

I realise that wasn't very clear. The Help Desk answers Wikipedia-related factual questions, the reference desk answers any other factual question. --Colapeninsula (talk)

Such a service called "Ask Adam" is already provided in Denmark, Norway and Sweden.Part translation from Norwegian: One of the mobile services being marketed is "Adam"...You enter a subject keyword to 2236 (Adam) to receive 3 messages with information about the keyword. Answers are collected from Wikipedia and they are sold for 5 crowns each. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

They're sending it by SMS? I guess they must be glad we switch to dual licence CC and GFDL. Nil Einne (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's another stab at the original question... Because most mobile devices can already access the web while out and about so what's to keep people from accessing the free version? Or put another way; Why pay for an app when a free alternative is already available? Dismas|^(talk) 13:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried accessing regular (not mobile) versions of websites on a mobile device? It's a pain. The OP is right, there should be versions of Wikipedia for iPhone and Android (they would be free, though, not paid), or at least a mobile version of the site. --Viennese Waltz 07:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a Wikipedia app for Android, I have it on my Sony Xperia. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:52, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia app for Android is not official though AFAIK. There is an official app under development as well as an existing iPhone app (although neither of these are designed for offline access). I don't really understand VW's point, wikimedia sites have had mobile versions for a while and most mobile devices are automatically directed to them based on the user agent. (Originally this relied on a gateway but it later switched to a wikimedia extension.) Try http://en.m.wikipedia.org or http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous. The site does lack editing and you can't easily view talk pages (perhaps not surprising since you can't talk) but it's there. Then there's also the fancy new Athena skin under development [14]. It's still a while off but from what I've read it potentially may mean the end of the mobile site, instead using a single site that adapts to the device.

I don't know if I'd agree with Dismas, while many mobile devices can access the web, I suspect quite a few people have sporiadic access because they are on a prepaid plan and don't want to pay for data usage and wifi access (if their device supports wifi) is not available everywhere. This is decreasing but I would still be hesitant to say a most mobile devices use the web, altho it may or may not be true that of those that don't have close to continous web access, the owners aren't going to bother with an app for offline access. (Although I wonder if even that is true if you take the tablet market in to account.) In any case, I do agree a paid app is not the solution nor in line with the foundations goals. There are BTW a variety of paid apps, including some which provide offline access, simply not developed by the foundation. I don't know if any of them donate a percentage of profits to the foundation, obviously there's no legal requirement for them to do so.

See also Help:Mobile access. Not mentioned there but the foundation is offering some support for offline access, including supporting the OpenZIM project however their limited efforts are targeted at outside the mobile device market at the moment as evidenced by the lack of any Android or iPhone ZIM reader.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

C&EI and L&N Railroad Routes

Re: please clarify the scheduling and routes of the C&EI train route from Chicago to Evansville that were run on the portion of the L&N's "humming bird" and "Georgiana". The Chicago to Florida passenger service ("dixie route") i.e., does that mean 4 trains the C&EI used traveled the same route (on different schedules, of course) but didn't stop in Evansville or the "dixie route" trains were on C&EI tracks all the way to Florida and bypassed Evansville? Let me tell you, my grandparents lived on Pennsylvania avenue where one of these trains (or all of them at one time or the other) passed every night at about 10:00 pm -- it was a treat to stay at grandma's because she would make us a pallet of quilts and pillows on the floor in front of the screen door in the summer time and we could stay up until this shiny, superfast train passed by -- wow!! All the lights were on in the cars and it rumbled by and the whole house shook but we loved it. I just can't remember which one it was -- I thought it was the silver bullet, but that isn't in the list. My grandpa worked for the C&EI and his job was to sit up in this little house and do something about the trains -- I remember walking across the tracks and up about 30 steps to take his soup pail and sandwich up --pretty scary for a 4-year old. I'm now 70 years old and as silly as it sounds, this is a story that i want to live on . . . And I want it to be just right. My dad was also a railroader and worked for the L&N in Evansville at the Howell yard. His job was wrecker engineer. To this day, I love the sound of trains and fondly remember walking the tracks to go get his paycheck, watching and waving as the troop trains passed and even recall the hobos that were camping under the viaduct. Didn't start this to share, but I just had to -- you probably have other special memories that you should share with others -- go ahead -- :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.39.165.70 (talk) 12:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

We can't hear you! Please shout a little louder! 194.100.223.164 (talk) 12:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I have refactored the original post so it is somewhat quieter. Maybe that will prevent the above rudeness. Astronaut (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe our articles on the Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad and the Louisville and Nashville Railroad will help. In particular, you might find useful the external links towards the end of each article - both railroads have their own historical societies which I would imagine would be a great source of information for scheduling and routes. Good luck. Astronaut (talk) 16:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

tourism and environment

sustainable resource use and proper resource assessment will require an intergrated and consultative approach that addresses tourism and environment.Elucidate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius vivians (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

As a start, make sure you understand each of the words by looking them up in a good English dictionary such a www.onelook.com or Wiktionary. However you must spell "integrated" properly. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

It starts out by making a reference to those resources, presumably of an environmental nature, that one would like to have around in perpetuity and be more knowledgeable of. It goes on to recommend a system that draws upon human resources from more than one sector of the society, in order to understand those natural resources better. It makes one particular point of the need to address the ways in which tourism impacts the environment.

I am taking some liberties in interpreting the original text. I think the original text could have been written more clearly. If you have any follow-up questions or comments, please feel free to post again. Bus stop (talk) 00:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Advanced Inflatable Repair

So, if I have some inflatable toy, a nice big thing that I enjoy playing with in the swimming pool, and it has a quite large tear through it. I have paid quite a bit for this thing, I don't want to just throw it away, but as well, having already invested that much in it, I would be interested in more expensive high-tech sorts of solutions. I could of course just put a strip of sellotape across it, that might well need replacing every few hours, but what else could I do that might be more durable? The tear being along a seam, making it difficult to get tape or a repair patch into the shape there, could I effectively recreate the seam, melting it with some heat source to reseal it? Or what about glue, is there any sort that might create a strong, airtight and waterproof seal here? 148.197.80.214 (talk) 18:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Purely on personal experience of comparable situations, I'd say glue is unlikely to work, because there will be too little area of overlap/join available to be glued securely. If the tear were on a smooth, unseamed area, then adhesive tapes wider and more water resistant than Sellotape™ are available that would probably suffice - something like Duct tape, though other sorts might be even better: you'd need to visit local hardware stores or trade suppliers to see what's available. Tears along seams on inflatables are, as you say, more difficult to fix because the small irregularity of the seam makes an airtight seal very difficult to achieve, but since a pool toy does not have to bear the same pressures as, say, an air bed, a suitable appropriate tape might well work. Trying to replicate by guesswork the heat and pressure seaming process used in the toy's manufacture (which will be heavily dependent on the exact material) would, I'd have thought, be very difficult, and if not exactly right the first time would leave the toy in an even worse and less repairable condition. Good luck! {The poster formerly known as 87.81;230.195} 90.197.66.98 (talk) 22:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Depending on the exact plastic used to make the toy, it is probably possible to purchase a glue which is a gentle solvent for that plastic. This has to be used with care. I recall making successful airtight repairs to PVC many years ago using this type of glue, but I can't remember what the solvent was. Dbfirs 23:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Happens all the time. Just Google "inflatable repair kit" and click away.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I wondered why I was so euphoric over that repair! Thanks for the link. The solvents used seem to be Methyl ethyl ketone, Acetone or Toluene, depending on the material. Dbfirs 17:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

November 26

Ice maker

So my wife really likes the kind of ice "balls" you get at restaurants like Sonic. It is basically little, round, pebble-sized ice balls. It there a home version of this. All I can find is "restaurant grade" equipment and they are all very expensive (like, thousands of dollars). I'm thinking of a Christmas present version of this. Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 03:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

This is the only thing I could find after 10 minutes of google searches for under $1000. It offers multiple sized ice cubes; but I have no idea if their smallest setting would work for you. Nothing else I find is of the "christmas present" price range (assuming you belong to the 99% and not the 1%). --Jayron32 03:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

this list has 3-4 in the sub thousand dollar price range. No idea if any meet your needs. --Jayron32 03:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, most of that is what I have seen, but some not. I can't justify an Xmas present at more that $1k for an item like this, so your info was very helpful! Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 04:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a cheaper idea: Use an egg tray instead of an ice-cube tray in the freezer, to form hemispheres, then add a bit of water on top of half and place the other half on top, and freeze the two halves together. Here's a tray: [15]. To make them a bit smaller and freeze the two halves together even better, melt them down a bit after in cups of cold water (don't put more than one sphere in a cup, or they may freeze together). This will fill in any gaps between the pieces with ice. (Any water which gets between the ice chunks will freeze due to the ice being below freezing temp.) StuRat (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think that any ice chunks that get water between them will melt, due to water being above freezing temp - but I don't really know.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Ice straight out of the freezer is well below freezing, and the cold water I specified should be only a few degrees above freezing. It also takes lots of energy to melt ice even if it was right at freezing. Combine this with only a thin film of water between the two ice hemispheres, and it would quickly freeze. Haven't you ever had ice cubes freeze together in your drink ? StuRat (talk) 03:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In any event, eggs are the wrong size. Sonic ice looks like this. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

What about just getting a mold, like this or this or this or this? (The latter seems pretty nice to me — the reviews say they are really small, so small that the reviewers rated them negatively!) They're not all perfectly round but they're pretty close to the same size. The relevant search term seems to be "mini cube" if you want things that make very tiny ice cubes, I have now learned. I think the technical term for the Sonic ice is "nugget ice", but true nugget ice machines seem to only be produced for thousands of dollars, apparently because they use a fairly complicated process to make the ice. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if the product is available in the US, or even under what name to google it, but in Germany we have foil bags for making (semi-round) ice balls. You fill them with water, and put them in the freezer. See [16]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If hundreds of little ice pebbles are needed per drink, like in your picture, then moulds can't be the solution. When you're in need of a cocktail, removing just two or three ice cubes from a mould is arduous enough, I find.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The image seems to show crushed ice. You can make that with an ice crusher (*surprise* ;-), or with a double plastic bag and a hammer. But that won't give you nice balls. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Apparently most Sonics will sell bags of ice. That's probably the best solution for getting the ice. But it doesn't really work as a Christmas present. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Sustainable Cannibalism

Could a species sustain itself indefinitely through being cannibals? E.g. say there were 100 rabbits and (ignoring other factors like nutrition etc) all they had to eat was themselves, could they sustain themselves long enough to have offspring and then that offspring to cannibalise their former generation/some of themselves? I assume that basically it's a non-starter as the total energy levels start with whatever the energy of 100 rabbits is and reduce each time (and that each new rabbit costs more energy to raise than it gives back in food/gets back in food). Terrible question I know but was watching a documentary with Polar Bears apparently sometimes eating the little ones if they get hungry enough. ny156uk (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, the lack of energy input into the ecosystem would cause it to fail. Plenty of animals have been known to eat their young in difficult times, though. If there isn't enough food, the young aren't going to survive anyway so the parents eat them to maximise their chances of surviving until better times when they can have more young. --Tango (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

We have a sections of articles on the subject: Infanticide (zoology)#Infanticide by parents and caregivers and Cannibalism (zoology)#Filial Cannibalism. --Tango (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that it's not sustainable, but a species could survive an amazingly long time period through cannibalism. Let's take humans as an example. If we each ate another person, that ought to provide food for around 6 months. This assumes that each body can be frozen, or each body shared among many people so they don't rot, and there would be nutritional deficiencies from an all meat diet, so you'd have to assume vitamin pills are available. But, at the end of 6 months, you'd have half as many people. If you continued this practice you'd have 1/4 as many people at the end of one year, 1/16th as many after 2 years, etc. After 16 years you'd have 1/4294967296 of the original population, or about 2 people left. Then it's time to decide if you want to repopulate the planet or get out the butcher block one last time. :-) StuRat (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

That decision rests on whether there's a she and she's a pretty she. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't call 16 years an amazingly long time - that's less than one generation. I also think you would be lucky to get 6 months of food from one person. You could probably do it by rationing yourself and only eating, say, 1500kcal a day (which is low, but probably survivable). However, if you did that then after a couple of years the people you are eating have been on a very calorie poor diet for a couple of years, so they're going to be very underweight and you won't get 6 months of food out of them however well you ration it. --Tango (talk) 19:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You could stretch it much further if you decide on your target population, and butcher and freeze the remainder in advance. If you only need one breeding pair, you could probably keep them alive until the sun became a red giant. Of course, some of the remainder might object. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Something that no one has mentioned yet, is that high rates of cannibalism could also promote the development and spread of a prion disease similar to Kuru.--Aspro (talk) 19:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The OP began with rabbits eating themselves. Given that rabbits are herbivores, we are already in hypothetical territory. If we had a carnivore (say, these already odd rabbits) which could also photosynthesise like plants, they could use sunshine as an extra energy source. Maybe cannibalism would work then. HiLo48 (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, but rabbits do sometimes eat their own (usually stillborn) young. I probably ought to cite something ... the information is probably somewhere in rabbit it's in Infanticide_(zoology).  Card Zero  (talk) 21:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

When you run out of food, you always start by eating a person - that is, yourself. You start metabolizing your own fat and muscle cells (with the balance normally skewed heavily in favor of burning fat). Assuming that you're moderately overweight (as most Westerners are) and you have enough drinking water, you can last about 6 months without any food whatsoever before you die. --Itinerant1 (talk) 01:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

This would have been better placed at the Science Refdesk. In general, warm-blooded animals need much more food than cold-blooded animals (I've heard the figure ten times as much, though I'm not sure how meaningful such a general number can be). As a result, sustainable cannibalism is far more plausible in cold-blooded animals. Frogs are especially well known for this - adults can feed on tadpoles, or larger tadpoles can feed on the smaller, with various arrangements ([17]) I remember that The Legacy of Heorot cited some example of a species whose adults actually relied on larvae as their food source, but I don't think I ever tracked down whether it was true or not. Wnt (talk) 01:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Spiders are arguably the most notorious for this. Sexual cannibalism (killing of males by females after fertilization) and matricide (the killing and eating of the mother by her offspring).-- Obsidi♠n Soul 02:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Digestive processes are fairly efficient in all. But cold-blooded animals waste less energy on basal metabolism (as a human, you need to consume 0.5% of your body mass in carbohydrates per day just lying in bed, without gaining mass or engaging in any activities, a lot of that energy spent effectively on heating the room). In addition, in adult animals, the efficiency of conversion of plant matter into body mass is near zero, because they only eat as much as needed to sustain themselves.

Therefore, an ideal target for sustainable cannibalism is a cold-blooded, young, rapidly growing animal. Such as a young fish or a tadpole.

The same also applies to meat-eating in general. For human consumption, there's an additional requirement that the victim should be reasonably large (larger than, say, 1 kg), so that rules out all insects, and most reptiles. But we've learned to do quite well with certain warm-blooded animals. Broiler chickens weigh less than 50 g when they are born, they go from 50 g to 5 kg in about ten weeks, and then, while they are still growing, they are slaughtered for meat. Newborn pigs weigh 500 g, they rapidly and steadily gain weight, and, by the time they are slaughtered (six to ten months from birth, which would be, I think, somewhere between 8 and 14 in human years), they top 100 kg. Both chickens and pigs have feed conversion rates less than 4:1 (more than 1 kg of weight gain per 4 kg of feed). One other common animal below 4:1 is a domestic rabbit.--Itinerant1 (talk) 03:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Note that a small segment of a species (say 1%) could survive exclusively by cannibalism, provided they feed on other members of the species, which have other food sources. This would possibly result in the species evolving into two. StuRat (talk) 14:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Morlock and Eloi. Collect (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

According to our article Cannibalism in pre-Columbian America, some scholars believe (controversially) that for premodern Mesoamerican elites cannibalism was an important dietary element. Marco polo (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I seem to recall this being an element in New Guinea as well. Jared Diamond tosses out a suggestion in GGS about the paucity of protein sources in New Guinea correlating with cannibalism as a regular practice, I believe. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In my 1960s childhood, it was confidently predicted that the Earth's population would soon outgrow its food supply. One result of all that angst was a 1973 sci-fi film called Soylent Green; set in 2022 (not long to go!), people are killed off and turned into a protein supplement to feed the masses. Alansplodge (talk) 09:13, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

facebook related question

So, I have been reccomended getting an account on facebook, but the problem is that my social life at the moment is a little complicated and awkward, I am wondering, would I be right in thinking that if I had an account everyone that I knew could find it, and then find each other through that? Also, I would not be allowed two, would I, to keep different aspects of my private life separate from each other?

148.197.80.214 (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

According to the Facebook rules, you're not supposed to have two accounts (section 4.2 of their TOS). Though I know at least 5 people who do. Dismas|^(talk) 21:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(after e/c) :I don't know what FB's rules say, except that you are supposed to be at least 13 to have an account. I do know of individuals who have accounts not in their real names and who have more than one account (each in a different name, though I think none of this is actually permitted). Your name can be found, perhaps: I have certainly searched for names I knew were being used, but to no avail. If it is found, others can only read what parts you make public. (Note that "public" is the default, though.) You don't have to permit anyone access, and you can remove people from your friends' list at will. You can also create groups of people that only receive (or see) certain messages. Bielle (talk) 21:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

So, if I didn't want for example one group of friends/colleagues to know about another group, I could keep them apart and up to date on two different sets of information without them knowing I was doing so? What about this rumour I have heard that the site randomly sends people information about friends of friends in case they are interested in each other? 148.197.80.214 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If the two personas you are using have friends, or friends of friends, in common, then you will get suggestions that you might like to add these common friends to your list of friends. These common friends will likely also get suggestions about adding you. You don't have to do anything about this, and you can ignore requests from them to be added to your list. What you can't do is keep one account entirely secret from the other if they have anyone in common. They will know the other account exists, but not whose it is (unless you are using your own name on one of them). I wouldn't count on them remaining secret, though Bielle (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Bielle) For the first question, there is a way to prevent a list of your friends from being displayed on your profile [18]. However, there may still be ways for inquisitive people to discover who your friends are - according to that blog post, Facebook considers friend lists "public information". So if you're friends with boyfriend A, boyfriend B may be able to see that somehow, even if you hide your friend list.

An additional problem is your wall. You can set who can see your wall (basically either "everyone" or "my friends", or "only me"), but you can't set it so only selective sets of your friends can see a given post. So you could set it so only you can see stuff posted on your wall, which would work fine, but most people don't really use Facebook that way (they prefer to be able to snoop at what other people are having posted). But if you set your wall to "friends only" (or worse, "everyone"), then when boyfriend A posts saying "I love you", boyfriend B (and all of your other friends) can see that.

It is indeed against the rules to have multiple accounts, but if you aren't using them maliciously, you are unlikely to get caught. If some people know about both of your accounts, though, it may be hard to keep the existence of one secret from people. If you do want to get on Facebook, this is probably the best way to go.

Finally, remember that no matter how hard you try to keep things private, Facebook is ultimately geared towards getting your information out there. Facebook is not your friend. Facebook is trying to make money off of you. They do this by offering a free service that encourages you to give them, and others, your information. Privacy settings seem to change every year or so when Facebook rolls out a new design, and default settings are often changed towards less privacy. Facebook makes money by advertising, and they can make more money if advertisers know more about you. user:Nimur has made a number of good posts on the subject. Take a look at some of the articles he linked to on his talk page last August. Buddy431 (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

That isn't really true, you can, on a post by post basis, select which of your friends can see your wall post when posting. Facebook has had this feature since a while (I think 2008 or 2009 from something I read recently, I was using it in late 2010 when I briefly started using FB regularly for a while) but they've recently changed so it's even clearer, generally suggested to be partially in response to Google+. More significantly, they've now enabled you to modify the privacy settings after posting (before once you posted it was stuck at that setting which you could view but not modify) although this may not help you if the person has already seen the post or set something up to record your posts automatically. Also it isn't true you can only set those 3 options. For starters there is a 'friends of friends' option. Also, you can select specific friends or you can make lists of friends and then choose a whole list. In addition, you can hide posts from people, so you can do all my friends; except these people (or this list of people).

There are still risks of course. You could screw up. And there's obviously nothing stopping someone else allowing others to see your post either directly or by reposting or mentioning it. (However if they simply comment on it, people should not see any sign they've done so unless they can see the post.)

In the same vein, remember you have no control over the privacy settings of others. If you post 'I love you' to boyfriend B's wall and boyfriend B allows everyone to see their wall, obviously this means your girlfriend G will be able to see that you did so. And this will appear as an update on your wall, although you can delete that. It's true you can't hide updates except by hiding your wall to that person, if you really wanted to you could temporarily change the privacy settings of your wall, make the post, and delete the update on your wall and change back. But this seems a false sense of security to me, since the problem remains your post on the other person's wall depends on their privacy settings not yours. And even if it's currently not visible to the person you don't want to see it, remember this could change e.g. girlfriend G could become friends with boyfriend B, boyfriend B may relax the privacy settings accidentally or on purpose etc. Note that one thing you can do is type @ and then type and choose the person from the friends list that appears. This means the post will show up on the person's wall but isn't actually a post to their wall, so the privacy settings remain dependent on your privacy settings for that post (although again bear in mind the risk of the person sharing etc).

Nil Einne (talk) 06:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I just saw a commercial for Google+, Google's new social networking service, which seemed to promote the idea that you can divide your contacts into multiple groups and share different types of information with each of them. Maybe that's up your alley. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

If you create a FB account, people you add as friends will see any messages you post, names of your other friends, and any public comments from your other friends. You can configure your account to prevent the rest of the world from seeing anything except your name and your profile photo.--Itinerant1 (talk) 01:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Not Logged In - Along with everything that Nil Einne said above, make sure you never add anyone to both groups, and set all your sharing settings never broader than "Friends". Do not allow any Facebook App to access your account, do not allow Facebook access to your email(find friends quickly or some such honeypot). Set your browser to clear all cookies at the end of each session, do not switch between Facebook accounts without clearing your cookies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.212.96.247 (talk) 03:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Or as I do with my emails, have the two accounts on separate computers. I think, though, I will just stick with the one main account, the other stuff I didn't want to be too public doesn't really need to be linked to that particular site, when there are plenty others around. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 09:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

November 27

confederate $50 printing block

how do i find the value of a confederate $50 printing block — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.109.145.121 (talk) 00:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It's likely for something that specific, and presumably that rare, that you're going to want to talk to a professional assayer — someone who specializes in Civil War stuff. (Is it similar to this?) If it were me I'd probably take it to a few Civil War memorabilia shows and see what a variety of people there said, or who they recommended in terms of getting its value assessed by a professional. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Financial investment/risk

Hello. I am just wondering what is the difference between a financial investment product and a financial risk product? Also, what are the different taxation implications for each product?114.77.39.141 (talk) 03:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Part 1: pretty much different phrases for the same thing; Part 2: depends on where you live and how much you earn. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Crustless pie ?

It seems to me that pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, and cheesecake are stiff enough to hold their shape without a crust. And, since the crust is often the most unhealthy part, does anyone make them without the crust ? StuRat (talk) 03:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

That would make them a pudding, then. (That's "pudding" in the North American sense.) Bielle (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

We just had crustless pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving so that would be a yes. And no, that is not the normal sense of a pudding here (Jello does offer a instant pumpkin pudding). Now calling it a pumpkin custard would not seem strange. Rmhermen (talk) 04:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed about the US definition of pudding. It's meant to be runny, unlike the pies I mentioned. StuRat (talk) 14:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What sort of cheesecake? If we're thinking of the same thing, then lots of cheesecakes have only a base and no outside wall; I don't think you could get away without a base. - Jarry1250 ^{[Weasel? Discuss.]} 13:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Why not ? StuRat (talk) 14:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

For one thing, the "filling" would stick to the baking dish and be a nightmare to clean! However, I think that the crust really adds to the pleasure of the dessert, largely due to the contrast in texture. Also, I myself made a pumpkin pie just a few days ago, and I'm not so sure the crust is a lot less healthy than the filling, which contains several eggs, tons of sugar, and rich cream. Marco polo (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Besides which, it would then just be a block of cheese on the plate, rather than a cheesecake. 148.197.80.214 (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Just because there's crust on a person's plate doesn't mean they have to eat it: just think of it as another cooking/serving accessory, like the dish the pie was cooked in or the plate it's on. Traditional Cornish pasties were made with a thick 'seam' of crust to one side, by which the miners who ate them held them in their (coal dust-covered) fingers - they didn't necessarily eat that dirtied crust. ({The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.15 (talk) 21:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC).

?"coal dust-covered", tin-mine dust surely? I've always had a problem with poor tin miners throwing away eatable food, whether covered in a bit of dust or not. Richard Avery (talk) 08:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Doh! Tin, of course. I was thinking 'coal' because my ancestry on one side comes (from Scotland) via (coal-mining) Durham where a Cornish line (having emigrated when the tin industry diminished) married in to it. I forget of what Geordie coal-miners' snap comprised, but it was doubtless something comparable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.72 (talk) 11:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The suggestion - though I don't think anyone knows if it's true or not - is that they discarded the pastry because the tin ore dust on their fingers contained traces of poisonous arsenic. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought it was the tin ore. Apparently the ore is Cassiterite, or SnO₂, and this MSDS says that SnO₂ is harmful if swallowed. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

signal cannons sirs;

my)*3;/-questions are as said;stated sirs;/signal cannons must show a/coat of arms;.question)*signal cannons open from back too load;powder for)*friing ;too signal;not;projectile harm;//question#3)most earlyer signal cannons;weight;are heavy;. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rondoutbyron (talk • contribs) 07:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about Cannon that may interest. Cannon's are indeed used for signalling without projectiles e.g. to give the "21-gun salute" and even in some music pieces such as Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. Medieval cannons often had coats of arms cast into the metal. It is not clear what other question you may have. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

British military and naval cannons carried the Royal cypher well into Queen Victoria's reign - about 1860 or thereabouts. When cannons stopped being cast in iron or bronze, this sort of decoration was no longer possible. Breech loading (that is, loaded from the back end) cannons weren't much used after the end of the 16th century, as it was difficult to make an effective seal, so they lost a lot of power. A clever chap called William Whitworth found a way of doing this in the 1850s and breach loading gradually replaced muzzle loading thereafter. Muzzle loading cannons were cast in one piece from bronze (smaller ones) or iron (larger ones) and this indeed made them very heavy for their size. Very small bronze cannons are sometimes still used by yacht clubs to singal the start of sailing races; you can buy one here for USD3,000.Alansplodge (talk) 18:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Euro collapse

What would be the outcome of a collapse of the Euro, the British are expecting riots. I'm sure that's probably and understatement, would it mean that the average person would loose their savings? Mo ainm~Talk 09:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It depends on where your average person lives. Stock market crash would be very likely. A global recession is possible. U.S. dollar would probably go up. People in Eurozone countries outside Germany will probably see their savings "renominated" in new currencies, which will be worth less than today; so, for example, if you have 10,000 euros in a Greek bank now, you'll have 10,000 drachmas, with each drachma worth €0.30 or so. (Therefore, if you have any money in a Greek bank, you're stupid not to withdraw it as soon as possible.) The same applies to Italy and Spain. It's a bit harder to predict what happens in France and Germany. Savings in U.S. banks should be fine. A few banks will go bankrupt but hey, that's what FDIC is for. --Itinerant1 (talk) 09:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Personally, I don't expect to see a full-blown collapse. Greece is toast, I'm 50/50 on Italy, but, at some point, the ECB will wake up and do the right thing. Namely, issue a proclamation that it will do all that necessary to prevent a collapse of the Euro. And that will be enough to prevent the collapse from happening.--Itinerant1 (talk) 09:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

P.P.S. If you want to know what will happen to Greece, start here.--Itinerant1 (talk) 09:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The OP's question is over simple because the Euro will not simply collapse. The likely negative scenario is that successive countries fail completely to meet the ECB's conditions for bail out loan and relapse to their original currencies e.g. drachma, lire, etc. That will be accompanied by civil unrest and may lead to the rise of nationalist movements and new alliances. There would be a much more serious impact on the Euro if a major partner (Germany?) withdrew its support but rather than "collapse" the Euro would just devalue with relative benefit to other currencies. The fate of US dollar is closely linked to that of the Euro. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

We cannot predict the future, but I agree that Itinerant1 has stated the most likely scenario. Probably when German banks begin to fail and investors begin to flee German bonds (causing interest rates to rise even in Germany against a backdrop of deepening recession), German moneyed interests will prevail on the German government to drop its opposition to unlimited ECB backing for euro-zone debts and on the ECB itself to provide such backing. That will allow the ECB to set a ceiling on interest rates and, if necessary, to monetize the unsustainable sovereign debt. Marco polo (talk) 17:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

My savings should be relatively safe, as I live in Finland, which is part of the "good" Eurozone together with Germany, France, Austria, the Netherlands and Belgium, as opposed to the "bad" Eurozone consisting of Greece, Italy, Spain and Ireland? Is this right? JIP | Talk 19:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Your bank might go bankrupt. You should do some research to see what happens to that money in that situation. In the United States, when the bank goes bust, government guarantees all deposits up to $100,000. Check if you have a similar system.--Itinerant1 (talk) 23:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

swimming pool quote

Suppose I wanted a swimming pool in my back garden, just a little one, maybe 5*5m or thereabouts, how much might that cost, roughly? Would it be like £500? £5000? £20000?

148.197.80.214 (talk) 22:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

A contractor can give you a quote based on volume of earth removed, taking into accounts the surfaces area to be constructed to contain the water and the pump/filtration/heating system required. Ask for quotes and recommendations from happy customers. If you know someone with a small digger, dig it out yourself. Let the experts construct the pool and give you a guarantee. If the pool is surrounded by a high wall or is not over looked by other properties, let me know and I'll bring the girls around.--Aspro (talk) 23:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What your describing is a Dip Pool or Plunge Pool. Please don't call it a swimming pool, as when you have your opening gala, your jealous neighbours will laugh at you. --Aspro (talk) 23:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Based on the price of some work done recently near me where a similar amount of earth was removed and the resulting hole tidied up for a car park you are looking at £20,000 rather than £5000. Richard Avery (talk) 08:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

November 28

Candice DeLong's Wikipedia Profile

While reading Candice DeLong's profile, I came across the following sentence: DeLong stated that she used humor to ease tensions while working.[2] She claimed that her three career goals were "to be involved with a high-profile national criminal, I wanted to apprehend a serial killer, and I wanted to rescue a kidnap victim alive and then kill her myself"[3]

I was disturb by the sentence, "and I wanted to rescue a kidnap victim alice and then kill her myself." I do not think Candice DeLong wished to kill anyone. Is this sentence accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.211.161 (talk) 09:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

No, it was some vandalism (put in there 8 hours ago). I've undone the edit.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)