Talk:Barack Obama

Calling into question the neutrality of this article.

I have read a few of the pages on current politicians here, and all of them include a section of questionable actions, criticism, and other information not on the positive side. I noticed more on the Republican pages than Independent or Democrat. Wikipedia has been very good at keeping things neutral, but this page is not neutral bias. From what I read I am under the impression that someone is actively editing this page on a near daily basis, removing items that cast any shadow of controversy on him.

I must call the neutrality of this article into question. There is no mention of his questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court, what SS numbers are assigned, names he has used in the past, nor his controversial terms in the Illinois legislature or at the federal level.

The validity of the controversy, whether factual or not should be included here for a non-biased and neutral article. As in the old saying "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" are needed for a neutral bias. This article reads like a puff news item, not up to the standards of Wikipedia. Milspecsim (talk) 01:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware Wikipedia was a gossip blog. We report on facts, not fiction.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:00, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

We don't include nonsense such as his political opponents' claims about "his questioned birth status" just to create balance. Don't stress. He can't stand again. If I was you I'd put effort into finding a great Republican candidate for next time around, rather than tilting at windmills here. HiLo48 (talk) 03:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• "03:31, 6 February 2013 User account Milspecsim (talk | contribs) was created". Yea. If this isn't yet another BryanFromPalatine or Gaydenver sock, I'll eat my hat. Tarc (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Notice how quickly and desperately the effort comes, to delegitimize anyone who accurately identifies the powerful pro-Obama bias in this article. Compare this article, and the amount of criticism from notable, reliable sources across the political spectrum that's being carefully excluded, with such articles as George W. Bush and Tony Blair. And go ahead and bite that newbie again, Tarc. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed nothing except valid criticism of the now completely discredited claims that the wasn't born in the US, plus some comments suggesting that those peddling such garbage take their energies elsewhere. Perhaps Bush's and Blair's article have more criticism because they deserve it for lying about WMDs and the like. And I don't care how long a person writing garbage has been here, or not. It's still garbage. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Fringe topics often have separate spinoff articles: To avoid wp:UNDUE weight in the "smaller" main article, then rare or fringe topics are covered in spinoff articles, with little or no mention in the main article. In that manner, popular myths or imagined scandals can be explained, but have almost no coverage within a main article. For example, with article "Moon" there is a spinoff article as "Moon is made of green cheese" to adequately explain that topic, without wp:Grandstanding of the cheese-Moon concept in the main article. Otherwise, an article would become excessively cluttered with "101 disproven myths about topic". Does that make more sense now? -Wikid77 11:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There's legitimate, notable, non-birther, non-fringe criticism of Obama from left, right and center on many, many topics — from the undeclared war against Libya, to continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, to continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay despite an executive order on January 21, 2009 stating that it would be closed within a year, to the way that Obamacare (a tax bill) originated in the Senate despite a constitutional requirement that any tax bill must originate in the House, to the remarkable shucking and jiving about the origins of the September 11, 2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate (with news media bootlickers providing ample cover, even in the middle of a televised presidential debate). Somehow, it always gets chopped down to a few words here or deleted entirely. And I haven't even mentioned the multitude of lies and broken promises from this president regarding the budget, the deficit, and the national debt. I say again, compare this article with the George W. Bush and Tony Blair biographies. Please explain. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess you don't like him. Not sure why. Maybe you always vote Republican. Seriously, opponents will always find fault with incumbent politicians. We cannot include everything they say. If you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

To the contrary, I voted for him three times (2004, 2008, 2012) out of party loyalty. Unlike many in my party, and on the left worldwide, I recognize a whitewash whenever and wherever I see one, and I'm not shy about calling it that. We could start with some of the topic areas I've mentioned:

• undeclared war against Libya, without even any oversight from Congress;
• continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, and let's discuss Bradley Manning's deplorable treatment and the extrajudicial execution of American civilians with drone aircraft while we're at it;
• continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay — if Obama can find $250 million to give away to the Egyptians despite a sequester, he could find enough money to transfer those detainees out of there if he really wanted to;
• Obamacare, a tax bill, originated in the Senate (or at least the version that was passed did) — but the Constitution requires tax bills to originate in the House;
• The constantly changing official White House story about how the Benghazi consulate attack originated, with cover and concealment from an amazingly cooperative and incurious news media during the two months before an election — so that after the election Hillary could say to Congress, "At this point, what difference does it make?";
• A campaign promise to cut the deficit in half during his first four years in office — just one of many budget and deficit-related campaign promises that weren't just broken, but shattered.

We could completely ignore any conservative source, no matter how reliable (i.e. National Review, Wall Street Journal). We could dismiss all of those reliable sources as scurrilous attacks motivated by partisanship, and focus entirely on criticism published in reliable sources from the left (Talking Points Memo, The Nation, Rolling Stone, The Village Voice, Mother Jones, etc.), and still pack this biography with criticism the way that the George W. Bush and Tony Blair bios are packed with criticism. But like Hillary said: at this point, what difference does it make? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the ills at once either. One at a time is safer. (And steer clear of birther nonsense like we see above. That kind of association will never help your case.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Did I even mention the birther nonsense except to say that the criticism in this article should be "non-birther"?

questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court - really?, care to cite that there was a Supreme Court hearing on the subject? RNealK (talk) 23:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, I was waiting for when this would get to the "I voted for him" line. If I had a nickel for every time in the seven years I've been editing this article that someone came on here to tell us how unbalanced, censored, whitewashed, pro-Obama this article is - and then rushed to assure us that they voted for him - I would retire. Tvoz/talk 07:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I became a little puzzled myself when User:Phoenix and Winslow told us he voted for Obama not just once, not twice, but three times, including 2004, but I let it pass and gave a good faith answer. Others can either explain that or draw their own conclusions. HiLo48 (talk) 07:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Presumably he was referring to Obama's (successful) candidacy for the senate in '04. Theoretically, he also could have voted for him for president then as well (see write-in vote). Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Maybe. HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I voted for him for the Senate in 2004. I'm an Illinois resident. And Tvoz, I supported Hillary in the 2008 primaries. She would have made a far better president. Does the internal disagreement within the Democratic Party ever occur to you? I voted for him, as I said, out of a sense of party loyalty. Compare this article to George W. Bush and try to tell me, Tvoz, that this isn't a whitewash. Not even one word of anything remotely resembling criticism until we get to the "Personal life" section at the very end of a lengthy article, when virtually no one is reading any more. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Also note how he/she believes that the constitution says all tax increases/bills must originate from the house. Following that false logic, because the Republicans control the house and they are anti-tax, then such a "tax bill" like Obamacare could never be constitutional because the Republican controlled house would have never agreed to it. You got to love "false neutral" people who claim they are neutral, or even liberal, then turn around and spout Tea Party BS. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't just "believe" it. Read Article I, Section Seven of the United States Constitution. All bills that raise revenue must originate in the House of Representatives. And at the time Obamacare was passed, the Democrats held a huge majority in the House, so alleged Republican control of the House is no excuse. Party loyalty doesn't enable me to ignore the Constitution. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This thread needs to end, please. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article. It is not for discussing the subject matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• agree, not neutral, reads like a Wikipedia:Peacock#Puffery, prove me wrong and point out the critic in the current article? Darkstar1st (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• damn straight, not neutral reads like a press release from Organizing for America. A direct comparison with the George W. Bush biography is all that's necessary here for any Wikipedia editor with even the slightest degree of objectivity. For the benefit of Scjessey, we are discussing how to improve the article. Currently the article pretends that there is no criticism of Obama's actions as president. Including some criticism would be an enormous improvement of the article. Let's continue to discuss it. All agree that creating a "criticism" section would be a POV magnet. Interweaving criticism into the fabric of the entire article is best practice. Furthermore, I only said that we "could" ignore conservative criticism. Best practice would be to provide a sampling from across the political spectrum, from highly notable and reliable sources both conservative and liberal. Agreed? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Question: when did this turn into some kind of voting thing where people who have a substantial and very obvious POV issues against the subject of this article can come in and make no specific points, but just spout Tea Part BS? I think it would be more constructive that if they chose not to be specific and instead say: "this article is not neutral," "I voted for him multiple times but I don't think this article is neutral," "I'm a democrat and feel that this article is a puff piece," "here are so and so Tea Part talking points that prove my points," etc, etc, that they need to walk away. The election is over, he's not going to be in office in less the four years. Pushing Tea Party talking points into this article will not achieve anything. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem with your analysis. I'm wearing my Wikipedia editor hat today, and I never was a Tea Party member. I disagree with nearly everything on their list of talking points, but that doesn't matter. Wikipedia editors don't care whether the subject of the biography is barred by a constitutional amendment from ever running for office again, or whether he will be out of office in three years and nine months. Wikipedia editors care about the quality of the biography TODAY, and specifically in this case, the neutrality of the article TODAY. And Wikipedia editors don't care whether you, Mr. IP Editor, are the return of a long-banned disruptive editor. We are only interested in one thing: identifying a very serious NPOV problem that has been residing on this biography for five years, and at last resolving the problem. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

an example of how the lede should read can be found in the article of the last president: After his re-election, Bush received increasingly heated criticism from across the political spectrum[8][9][10] for his handling of the Iraq War, Hurricane Katrina,[11][12][13] and numerous other controversies. as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, a similar line should be added to this article including one or more of the above mentioned notable controversies. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. Nothing approaches that in the Obama presidency. In any event, that is a matter for the Bush article. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. How is that different from Obama? For example, the House resolution to withdraw from Obama's undeclared war in Libya was sponsored by Dennis Kucinich, a liberal Democrat. Criticism of Obama is a very notable part of his presidency, and also goes beyond the usual partisan politics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

actually all presidents articles here mention controversy, it would be absurd to suggest Obama's presidency is void of such. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is not going anywhere, and seems to be a violation on several sides of article probation. If there's a specific suggestion for improving the article let's discuss that without talking about birthers, tea party, or supposed whitewashing. Those are the exact issues that got hundreds of (mostly sock) editors blocked and banned, and article probation in the first place. I believe the editors here and elsewhere have consistently rejected adding criticism or criticism sections strictly for its own sake. On a case by case basis we include various noteworthy matters in the article. If those happen to be interpreted as positive or negative by people, that's their interpretation. Mentioning the existence of criticism or controversy is only appropriate if the criticism or controversy itself is germane to the article using whatever inclusion standards. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

establishing significance of criticism in the lede

as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section we are directed to mention of consequential or significant criticism or controversies. Significance is established by the notability in RS. Several RS established notability of several separate issues, we now must select the most notable one or more and include it. My specific suggestion would be the Disposition Matrix and the collateral damage resulting from the use of drones. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

That's not a bad choice. Personally, I'm kind of torn between the weeks and weeks of shucking and jiving about the origins of the 9/11/2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate, and the $6 trillion increase (so far) in the national debt, which will probably be Obama's most long-lasting legacy. Regarding the debt and the annual deficits that build it, there's a broad assortment of false statements, broken promises, and reversals of position from Obama. These have been picked apart and criticized in detail among several reliable sources. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I suppose we could mention all three. And interwoven into the fabric of the entire article, we should provide the most notable examples of criticism on several different topics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that's ridiculous. Partisan talking points have no place in the lede of a WP:BLP. As to whether history would consider any of these significant, well, that's up to history. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

They're not "partisan talking points," Loonymonkey. For example, a lot of the criticism regarding the extrajudicial execution of American citizens using drones has come from the progressive left. The criticism regarding many of these issues comes from all points on the political spectrum and cannot be dismissed so easily. But I can see that if it doesn't appear in a left-wing publication, with a citation to that left-wing publication, it will be dismissed as a "partisan talking point" and immediately reverted by the Obama fanboys here, right? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

tangential discussion of appropriateness of phrase Shuckin' and jivin'
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Also, "shucking and jiving?" Really?--Loonymonkey (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC) Indeed, that caught my eye as well. Most Obama criticisms do tend to have a basis in racism, don't they. Tarc (talk) 20:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC) I'm sure Phoenix and Winslow was referring to the 1971 Osmonds song, because we all know that there are no criticisms of Obama that are racist in their roots, and it is the most notable point in the article Shuckin' and jivin'...right? --averagejoe (talk) 20:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC) Oh, that? I'd say the same thing if Obama was white. He was shucking and jiving about the origins of the Benghazi consulate attack for weeks. This is just another attempt to delegitimize anyone seeking to introduce criticism into this article. Plan "A": He's a sockpuppet. Plan "B": He's a Tea Party member, reading a list of Tea Party talking points. Plan "C": He's a racist. What's Plan "D"? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC) Sure, you would. Perhaps you're not racist. Perhaps you're just ignorant of acceptable societal norms which view the phrase Shuckin' and jivin' as being on par with Jungle bunny and coon. Way to keep digging the hole. Not sure about the other plans....you seem to have just drove us straight to Plan "C" with your choice or words. Miss-spoke? Fix it. Simple mea culpa should do the trick. Go ahead, we'll wait...right here at Plan "C" where you parked us. --averagejoe (talk) 05:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's probably right and proper that the word "drone" does not appear in this article. It's not like he will be known for that in the future, is it? On the other hand, I think keeping : "December 1, 2009, Obama ... proposed to begin troop withdrawals 18 months from that date.[240][needs update]" since July 2012 is not a sign of normal editing at work. --John (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

User:Phoenix and Winslow is desperate to see Obama cop a similar amount of criticism to Dubya. I'm not American. On the international stage, Dubya lied about WMDs, taking much of the western world, including my country, into a pointless war. His overall performance damaged America's image massively on the world stage. He is generally seen as a dishonest fool in most of the world. Obama has done nothing in that league. Maybe he will. He's got over three years to go. But so far, no. Demanding that Obama's article contain the same amount of criticism as one of America's worst ever Presidents is just stupid. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. Clearly you have a pro-Obama and anti-Bush POV, and I suspect that it pervades your editing on political topics. Fortunately, most of us here at Wikipedia are both able and willing to check our POVs at the door when editing, and we edit articles with a genuinely neutral POV. Give it a try sometime. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

During the recent presidential election campaign I closely watched both Obama's and Romney's pages. I was accused by supporters of both major parties of being a supporter of the other. I'm proud of that. You may not like what I wrote about Dubya's and Obama's international images, but it's completely true. I'm describing an unarguable reality, not my opinion. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

perhaps we exist in different realities as it is absurd to suggest Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Not as absurd as maintaining that this article meets Featured Article standards. --John (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Darkstar1st - What's absurd is you accusing me of saying that Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Misrepresenting what others say will never win an argument. What I am saying is that no more belongs in the article at this time. Comparisons with Dubya's article will never help either. HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

What I am saying is that no more [criticism] belongs in the article at this time. Currently there is zero criticism in the article. So what you're saying is that zero criticism belongs in this article — even though very notable people on the left like Dennis Kucinich, who could never be accused of reciting Tea Party talking points, have sharply criticized Obama's actions as president. Is that correct? You believe that zero criticism belongs in this article? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

No. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

ok, so what should we add, or is there some criticism in there already, if so where? Darkstar1st (talk) 00:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

If no negative information is allowed into the article, how about as a compromise, we add a POV tag to the article to warn readers that this article doesn't follow WP:NPOV? Does that sound fair enough? If not, can someone suggest another way to deal with the NPOV issues with this article? All options should be open for consideration. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:37, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the perceived ills at once either. One at a time is safer. HiLo48 (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Gosh, that's a very high hoop to jump through. I think the administration's drone (extrajudicial killing, whatever you call it) policy and the debate surrounding it is of of significant weight and historical significance to be included here, not necessarily positive or negative even if people portray it so. Another note. The legal challenges to Obamacare are covered in depth here, barely at all in the "presidency of…" article (I removed some material there as undue) - Wikidemon (talk) 05:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious in your complaint that "that's a very high hoop to jump through"? I hope not. It's Wikipedia's normal standards for any article. HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the "high hoop" for adding material to the article is typing what you want to add to the article? The alternative would be everyone just complains on the talk page and nothing gets written? —Designate (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

If you can put the words together to make a complaint, you can try to put words together for the article. And note again that this is not just an ordinary article. To start with it's a biography of a living person. Our standards have to be the highest of all for BLPs. And it's about a politician, someone who some people will be predestined to look for faults with from birth, rather than discussing rationally. That again means greater scrutiny of proposed changes than normal. You can't just moan and groan about the article. You have to address your concerns properly. HiLo48 (talk) 00:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Individual editors such as you claim that you would allow criticism in the article. But my experience over several years has been that the moment it's introduced, it is reverted. And we are directed to put it into some other article. We are accused of being sockpuppets of some long-gone editor, or being racists for the innocent use of a regional colloquialism, or reciting Tea Party talking points. The result is that the lede, and the sections dealing with Obama's academic and political careers (in other words, the first 90% of the article) have been kept absolutely pristine and unsoiled by anything remotely resembling criticism. Another result is that editors like me, who have tried several times to introduce very well-sourced criticism into the article, have grown weary of beating our heads against that wall. We've given up. And Wikipedia's reputation[4][5] as an unreliable, biased source has been preserved. I repeat, this article reads like a press release from Organizing for America. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Like many inexperienced editors, you fail to understand what WP:NPOV actually means. It does not mean that all points of view are represented, it means that all significant points of view are represented. It may simply time to face the fact that your point-of-view lies on the fringe and isn't worthy of mention in a serious encyclopedia project. That you try to cite a fringe right-wing rag like "newsrealblog.com" to support your argument is indicative of a complete failure to understand the neutral point of view. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, my viewpoint does not "lie on the fringe." Significant points of view, such as the anti-Obama dissenters within the Democratic Party, the peace movement, Amnesty International, and the entire Republican Party are being ignored. The fact that 47% of American voters wanted to get rid of Obama — in addition to people like me, who didn't much care for him but only voted for him out of party loyalty — doesn't register with editors like you. According to you, 47% of American voters aren't significant enough. You carefully ignore my citation of an excellent, peer-reviewed article published by the National Bureau of Economic Research,[6] and pretend that the only article that I cited was NewsRealBlog. Such cherry-picking reveals your own bias. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Is there a point to any of this? Ambiguously demanding criticism isn't going to achieve anything. Make a specific proposal with specific text and then we can all weigh in on its merits. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Specific proposal: (A) Mention criticism in the lede, regarding (1) extrajudicial killings of American citizens with drone aircraft, (2) failure to close Guantanamo Bay, (3) US$6 trillion increase in the national debt, (4) crony capitalism and the $500 million failure at Solyndra plus other, similar green energy projects that failed spectacularly, (5) failure to end most of the worst excesses of the Bush Administration with regard to warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, and other elements of Dick Cheney style national security, and (6) the changing story regarding the origin of the 9/11/12 Benghazi attack, as well as Obama's failure to respond to that attack. (B) Follow through with one or two sentences on each of these six areas of criticism, carefully avoiding partisan attacks from the usual suspects and citing renowned, highly respected sources. Interweave these sentences into the text in the sections that already deal with all these topics in such a hagiographic way. And make this article genuinely NPOV for the first time in its history, Scjessey. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not specific proposals. They are (for the most part) talking points. Besides, the list you have presented doesn't include anything biographically significant at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming all my criticisms of this article, Scjessey, and the clique of Obama fanboys who WP:OWN it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for religiously conforming to Wikipedia's policies of assuming good faith and not making personal attacks. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Your results over these past five years speak for themselves, Scjessey. They speak for themselves loud and clear. No criticism has been allowed into the article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Certainly, doubts/questions/conspiracy theories/whatever you want to call it over his birth are significant enough to warrant inclusion in the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No fucking way, there is no place for birther gibberish in this article, any more than Apollo 11 should devote a section to moon landing conspiracy theories, which is listed only in the See Also section. Tarc (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Whether birtherism (is that a word?) is gibberish is irrelevant. The fact is that it was a notable controversy through most of his presidency. And actually, Apollo 11 shouldn't even have a See Also link moon landing conspiracy theories as it's not notable enough to even include as a link. I'd delete it myself, but the looners (I think I just coined a word!) would probably complain. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Please stop trying to steer this discussion into questions about Obama's citizenship. "Birther" and "birtherism" have become neologisms in the same way that "9/11 Truther" became a neologism: to describe a conspiracy theory that should not be given any credibility by repeating it here. AQFK, when you raise questions about Obama's citizenship, you hand fresh ammunition to the clique of Obama fanboys who WP:OWN this article. They are trying desperately to delegitimize any criticism at all.

Any.

Criticism.

At all.

Including criticism that has nothing to do with his citizenship, and everything to do with his many notable failures as a president. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

You need to stop with the accusations and personal attacks. You've now made the same ones multiple times. Stop it. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 18:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Sigh......It wasn't a "notable controversy". There are no reliable sources that have stated "doubts/questions/conspiracy theories/whatever you want to call it over his birth"(we call it what the vast majority of RS call it, conspiracy theories/Birthers). We have an article on the conspiracy theories. We don't need to add them to this article, even this discussion is attracting the POV flies that thrive on this **it. There is strong consensus to exclude the birther silliness, I suggest reading the Talk page archives if you question that consensus. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@DD2K: I don't understand your second sentence. There are tons of reliable sources which have covered this. It was even front page news when Trump got involved and Obama produced his birth certificate. I don't doubt that there is strong consensus against inclusion. That's not my point.

I work on our September 11 attacks and we face a similar problem to what your facing at Barrack Obama: we are constantly beset by 9/11 truthers who want to use Wikipedia to promote their conspiracy theories. In fact, the situation at the 9/11 article was probably worse than here. Not only was 9/11 conspiracy theories mentioned in the article, we had an entire section devoted to it. I spent 2(!) years building consensus to have the section removed. It was a lot of hard work, but eventually it paid off. It's still mentioned in the article, but it's done in a respectful, encyclopedic fashion. I'm just saying it can be done, and I would argue that Birtherism is far more notable than 9/11 conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:51, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Has the media covered birtherism? Sure. Stated there is one ounce of credibility to the conspiracy theories? No. Just the opposite. And your comparisons(Truthers/Birthers) are off. You're comparing the wrong articles. Does the George W Bush article make the claims that 9-11 was 'an inside job'? No? Could that be because it's a living persons article? So is this one. We have several other articles that mention the birther conspiracies(Birther, Obama eligibility litigation, Obama birther legislation, Religious conspiracy theories, etc). So Wikipedia has articles on the conspiracies and the related silliness. It just hasn't effected Obama or his Presidency. Similar to the way the Truthers and all of their efforts have not effected Dubya or his. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 21:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

yet W contains a reasonable amount of critique, O does not. either you believe he is above such, or you are unable/willing to add it here. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Dubya took much of the world into a despicable war in Iraq based on lies about WMDs. He is globally despised. He deserves the criticism in his article. When Obama does something equivalent to that, add it to the article, HiLo48 (talk) 03:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section & Biographies of living persons which specific criteria are you referring? i did not see deserve in either rather the phrase consequential or significant criticism or controversies, Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, When writing about controversies in the lead of the biography of a living person, notable material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm. You think the the '''kill list''' used to eliminate a 16 year-old US citizen by drone[7] is not controversial, i disagree and suggest the amount of RS confirm the notability. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Dubya's negative impact was (and still is) globally recognised. This is a global encyclopaedia. You Americans can argue the point over internal politics elsewhere. Just don't use Wikipedia for it please. HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

global recognized is not a criteria, if you meant significant, as the guide reads, perhaps you would accept the NYT as a source? [8], his Dad also a US citizen was droned a few weeks later. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

By referring us to the NYT, you have supported my point. In which country is New York? HiLo48 (talk) 05:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

global recognized is not a criteria, your point is moot. Darkstar1st (talk) 06:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Significance matters. If an "issue" is only an issue because of local politics, that's playing non-neutral point of view game. SO far you haven't demonstrated otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 08:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

significance is determined by the amount of coverage in RS. describing the drone bombing of a foreign country as "local politics" is absurd. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:02, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

You've just lost all credibility on the consistency front. You've realised that your concern about US citizens being the target is a truly parochial one, so now you're concerned about US interference in a foreign country. All the citizens of the 110 countries where US troops are stationed (and have been for decades) will be delighted with your new found concern for their independence. HiLo48 (talk) 09:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to cite a policy. Any time. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:07, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I must have missed the bit in WP:BLP about mention of criticism only being permissible if the person deserves it. Silly me! Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I also must have missed the policy that says we need to include every Republican/Tea Party talking point about President Obama. I also must have missed the policy that says we have to give them more weight then they deserve. Also can anyone tell me the policy that says that we need to have an equal amount of criticism between two different presidential articles? Maybe there is a rule that says that if so and so American president is elected after another president, that their two articles must have equal amounts of good to bad? I sure must have missed all those rules? 74.79.34.29 (talk) 11:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Tea Party criticism or Republican criticism (I suspect you already knew that), and I'm certainly not talking about conspiracy theory nonsense. I'm talking about criticism that has received sizable coverage not only from American news outlets but from sources throughout the world. The drone issue has been commented upon by multiple British publications, including The Guardian, The Independent, andThe Telegraph, in addition to Der Spiegel and The Times of India. The application above of "Bush deserves his criticism" (which I'm not disagreeing with) is nothing more than an attempt to justify double-standard with WP:ILIKEIT. The manual of style states that the lead "should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." We don't get to overrule the MoS without a very good reason. Not liking Bush is, unfortunately, not a good enough reason. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:51, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

proposal

i suggest we add the Kill List controversy which resulted in the death of two US citizens by drone. NYT[9] and this source NBC[10] which uses the term controversy in the story title. please respond with support or oppose then explain, comments will be moved to a different section. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Why are we talking about a British horror film? HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

because the virtually unknown film is currently squatting where the common name for Disposition Matrix should be and editors have resisted the rename to kill List (film) for some reason. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it the common name in the UK? HiLo48 (talk) 11:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

yes [11] Obama has not only asserted, but aggressively exercised, the power to target for execution anyone he wants, including US citizens, anywhere in the world. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - I cannot see how the deaths of terrorists on foreign soil are biographically notable enough to include here. The debate about these deaths is way too complex to be squished into a digestable bite small enough for inclusion. You would have to violate WP:WEIGHT in order to put in a segment that would do the subject justice. Perhaps Presidency of Barack Obama would be a better place? -- Scjessey (talk) 11:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

there appears to be more than enough RS describing the 1st POTUS to target for assassination of US citizens to create a section. [12] and since he is the first it is considered outside the scope of the previous presidentcy articles the same way W illegal war was. The NYT quoted a Bush intelligence official as saying "he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president" Darkstar1st (talk) 14:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

and the ensuing coverup, According to Becker and Shane, President Obama has also been involved in the use of a fraudulent method of counting drone kills, one that unrealistically deemphasizes civilian deaths. [13] Darkstar1st (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Motherjones is the worldnetdaily of the left, not a reliable source. Conspiracy theories do not belong in a biographical article. Tarc (talk) 16:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

really, MJ is considered a rs elsewhere on wp, would truth-out suffice? [14] Pakistan have been civilian noncombatants - not "militants," as the Obama administration has claimed. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

or the Gaurdian? [15] Most of the evidence suggests the White House's assertion is inaccurate – but hard data on drones is difficult to come by Darkstar1st (talk) 17:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The drone program and surrounding dispute over its appropriateness are noteworthy issue (a series of issues, really) but I don't believe nearly noteworthy enough or biographically relevant at this time to include in the article. That could change. There are a series of articles on these subjects so the question is whether to link and/or refer to them. The Presidency article devotes a paragraph and hints but does not directly say that there's a controversy and opposition. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly support Obviously notable, with criticism coming from across the political spectrum. It isn't just a Tea Party talking point. Evidently the criticism must come from the left or it can't appear in this article, and any lame excuse to keep it out will do. But The Guardian is on board so there you go. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - It would seem undue. NickCT (talk) 07:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - One could argue that this should have received more coverage in the news media, but it didn't. Our job as Wikipedia editors is to hold a mirror up to the world and accurately reflect what the world says about a subject. This is WP:UNDUE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

actually did/still does. perhaps we are not viewing the same news media? the story continues to get coverages years later, using the exact term required for inclusion, controversy. the most controversial drone strike took place on Oct. 14, 2011, when 16-year-old Abdulrahman was killed by U.S. forces. [16]Democrats demanded that President Obama be more transparent about drones, secret legal memos, and kill lists. He declined.[17]. No Americans are currently marked for death on the U.S. government’s terrorist strike list [18] the US drone dead is now at 4. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point. It is a serious issue, but it is not biographically significant. Can you honestly say that drone strikes are one of the defining features of Obama's life story? This stuff is for Presidency of Barack Obama, not here. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

any blp of a person who keeps a list of people they decide should die, then makes them dead, would be a significant part of their life. how could such a heavy topic not be? Darkstar1st (talk) 12:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Please tell me you are joking. You are making it sound as if Obama personally carries a kill list with him. The United States, as a nation, has a list of terrorists to be killed or captured, just like many other countries around the world. I know it sounds like a big deal, but it really isn't. Not biographically significant, okay? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

i wish it were a joke, Barack Obama has insisted on personally approving a 'kill list' of Al Qaeda...[19] Darkstar1st (talk) 13:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

But that is a good thing. Unlike previous presidents, we now have one who takes responsibility for targeted killing instead of handing it off to Defense of Intelligence chiefs. Regardless, it is still not biographically significant. Time for you to let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that the kill list doesn't have enough coverage in reliable sources to be included here, or are you saying that it would never be included in this article regardless of its coverage? —Designate (talk) 14:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I am saying this is the wrong article to put this in because it isn't biographically significant. This article is about Obama's life as a whole, and this stuff hasn't had any measurable effect on that (yet). It should be in Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

How do you gauge whether something has had a "measureable effect" on his "life as a whole"? What would need to happen for you to decide "Okay, now it's biographically significant"? Can you pick a random sentence from the existing Presidency section and demonstrate how it's biographically significant? —Designate (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

An example of "biographically significant" would be winning election to office. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

and keeping a list of people you plan to kill is not? Darkstar1st (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not. As Scjessey has already pointed out to you, the USA, and many other countries, will have had lists of people they want dead for as long as countries have existed. That's it's in the hands of the elected leader won't be unique either. Given that such lists exist, it's probably the best place for it. The existence of this list is simply not a notable biographical aspect of Obama's life. HiLo48 (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

no, you just made that up. name one other country with a kill list. Darkstar1st (talk) 02:09, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

If you put your mind to it, I'm sure you can think of one. Tarc (talk) 03:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

LOL. Yes, I was going to suggest North Korea, but that will do. Maybe the difference here is the public awareness. That gives me an idea. We can add "President Obama gained considerable kudos for being the first world leader to publicly acknowledge that his country has a kill list". OK by you Darkstar? HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

wp:blp, Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources do you consider the following a secondary source? do you consider it criticism of Obama? Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will. ...Several were Americans. Two were teenagers, including a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years. [20] Darkstar1st (talk) 04:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

What's secret about the list? Not much of a source if it claims the list is a secret. Oh, and do realise that being well sourced is a minimum requirement for including something, but we don't include everything that's well sourced. HiLo48 (talk) 07:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

true, however we do include criticism in blp, so unless you are claiming this is not, i do not understand your continued objection to this material? Darkstar1st (talk) 09:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, Scjessey, can you pick a sentence from the Presidency section and demonstrate how it's "biographically significant"? Unless you define "biographically significant" in an actionable manner this is a circular argument: it should not be included because it's not worthy of inclusion. (Darkstar, please do not respond to any comments in this chain. I can't have a conversation if you respond to every single post.) —Designate (talk) 16:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't have to. The fact that he was (twice) elected POTUS is biographically significant, so (of course) it is necessary to précis his presidency in the article. Besides, the issue here is whether or not this "kill list" bullshit is suitable for the lede of the article. I think there is likely to be broad agreement that it belongs in Presidency of Barack Obama, after which a consensus may be found for including it in the "presidency" section as part of the précis. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

have the objecting editors been satisfied?

5 or so editors have made their objections known, all have now been addressed and satisfied correct? one editor has suggested it is undue, however that cannot be the case as the article would be undue without the edit, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. being featured in a 12 page article in the nyt and mentioned in several other widely read rs over years would certainly qualify as significant, and there is certainly a lack of criticism in the article, therefore all sides are not currently represented. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No, this editor is not satisfied. HiLo48 (talk) 11:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

in what way? you have acknowledged the nyt is a rs and significant, and yet to agree the article is criticism. do you have any other objection, if so what? Darkstar1st (talk) 11:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

That you write expressions such as "...and yet to agree the article is criticism", thinking it makes some sense, demonstrates a major gap between our levels of thinking here. I have made my objections. You clearly do not understand them. I cannot fix that. HiLo48 (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

so you do agree the source is reliable and the article contains criticism which is what is required for inclusion, and specifically should be according to blp. your last objection was the list is a secret, you can take that up at the rs noticeboard, we do not interpret the rs, simply cite them as is. unless you articulate your specific policy based objection, i cannot address your concerns and worry you may accidentally be obstructing the article by not clarifying your objection. Darkstar1st (talk) 12:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No. You appear to be simply not understanding what I have written, and you are misrepresenting much of it. You have not addressed my concerns in any way at all. At this point I have nothing more to say. HiLo48 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No. And add an Oppose to the above section. I agree with several other editors here. This issue isn't weighted for inclusion. Thanks Dave Dial (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm`with Dave Dial. No, and oppose. Tvoz/talk 05:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And the clique of Obama fanboys that WP:OWNs the article wins another round. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Obama not an "activist"

After the "community organizers" category was renamed to "community activists", I removed the category from this article. Obama was not an "activist" and there are no references that support the idea that he was. In my opinion, the renaming of the category significantly changed its meaning, so it is no longer pertinent. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I was just forced to remove this again after it was added by Billybob2002 (talk · contribs). I'd appreciate it if other editors could weigh in on this matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Community organizers don't organize people to be passive. I don't think there's a significant difference between the category names "Community organizers" and "Community activists". In practice, the terms seem to be pretty much interchangable. In any case, there is no shortage of sources in which Barack Obama is called an activist or "community activist"; one need only Google the phrase with his name and choose which of the hits is most reliable (perhaps Joann F. Price, Barack Obama: The Voice of an American Leader, p. 27 on Obama's "decision to become a community activist', or her quotation of the Chicago Times ("In 1996, this page endorsed a Chicago attorney, law school instructor and community activist named Barack Obama")? ). Our own article Early_life_and_career_of_Barack_Obama says that Obama said that he saw a degree in law as a vehicle to facilitate better community organization and activism. It hardly seems to be a remarkable claim, nor one from which Obama himself would demur. - Nunh-huh 04:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC) (Actually, the best place to look for quotes would be Google Books, where a search on "community activist" "barack obama" returns "2004 Barack Obama, a Chicago community activist, becomes the first African American man elected to the U.S. Senate from Illinois"; "[Barack Obama] reports...that the work of the church complemented and supplemented his work as a community activist."; "President Barack Obama is himself a former community activist/organizer"; "Obama was in Chicago by choice, working as a community activist by choice, living an ascetic life by choice"; "Barack Obama played his part as a young lawyer and community activist"; "his discovery of Christianity at the controversial Trinity United Church of Christ, while he was a community activist in Chicago" all on the first page.) - Nunh-huh 04:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Israel section due weight?

Out of curiosity, why is Israel the only country that has its own subsection under Barack_Obama#Foreign_policy? Seems to raise somewhat glaring WP:DUE/WP:BALANCE issues. Has this topic been previously discussed? NickCT (talk) 07:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

American-Israeli relations are like a proverbial third rail of politics and media here; everyone scrutinizes everything that people say regarding it, and pounce on any politician who doesn't profess 100% eternal fealty to the relationship. Hence the disproportional coverage that Israel receives in American media, which we're just a reflection of. Tarc (talk) 13:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it looks disproportionately disproportionate. If you closed your browser and wrote down the top 5-10 foreign policy issues of the administration would you choose the same 5 categories: Iraq War, War in Afghanistan, Israel, War in Libya, and Osama bin Laden? I think you'd probably consolidate them into Asia, Europe, Middle East, trade policy, and one or two others. Perhaps terrorism. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:45, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Concur with Wikidemon. I just find it really difficult to believe that Obama's foreign policy stance towards, say, China is less notable than his stance towards Israel. If you search engine test Obama Israel and Obama China the latter would seem more notable. NickCT (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

This conversation seems to have trailed off. Can I just ask, would anyone object if I simply deleted the foreign policy/israel subsection? NickCT (talk) 12:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Why would you want to do that? Rivertorch (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

@Rivertorch - Have you read the comments directly above? There are due weight concerns related to this section. NickCT (talk) 21:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

@NickCT: Don't mind me. I somehow thought you were talking about something on the talk page. Sorry! Rivertorch (talk) 05:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

That suggests restructuring the entire section for due weight, not simply deleting the information about Israel. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok Wikidemon - Can you suggest a route to restructure? I'm thinking we change the heading "Israel" -> "Middle East", remove some of the Israel material, then throw in information about Saudi Arabia, Syria etc. How does that sound? NickCT (talk) 21:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Mass shooting

I see that Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting is in the gun control issue, but that is still very few, when only today happened (at least) 2 shootings in both of them by a 4(!) years old boy and a college stabbing. reference:

• http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-year-accidentally-shot-year-18912094#.UWSjBqKeNny
• http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/08/us/tennessee-gun-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
• http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/09/justice/texas-college-stabbing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

And not forget about James Eagan Holmes, who left the most victims of any mass shooting in United States history. 91.83.180.23 (talk) 23:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

None of these have any relevance to an Obama biography. Tarc (talk) 23:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

He is the president, and somehow responsible for the fact that the 300m US citizens hold 300m guns. Moreover we have a gun control part of the article, these are quite good examples to show the efficiency of his gun control. 91.83.180.23 (talk) 00:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Before asserting the responsibility of the U.S. President for every criminal incident in the U.S., some minimal understanding of the U.S. Constitution, U.S. politics, and the U.S. federal system would probably be useful. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It is also Obama's responsibility that there is no serious background check, and in fact even a mentally ill person could keep any gun, or even 6 guns, including a Bushmaster. You can win a war with these. 91.83.180.23 (talk) 02:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

No President can unilaterally enact a law. If there is to be more federal gun control, it must come from the Congress. How is Obama responsible for the Congress not enacting such legislation? SMP0328. (talk) 03:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Gun control should certainly be in the article, and what do you know, it is![21] Unfortunately, the section reads like an Obama press release, but I'm not sure how to fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it reads like a press release. It simply documents Obama's activities after Newtown per the sources. I can't actually think of another way you could write it. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, we could include some criticism of Obama's gun control efforts from a reliable source. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The article is about what Obama has done, not what his political opponents think. HiLo48 (talk) 21:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Bias is bias no matter what.

It sounds like when Wikipedia talks about something negative about a liberal, it's called gossip. when they talk about something negative about a conservative, it's called being neutral. Wikipedia should show the positive's and negative's about both. - Billybob2002 (talk) 05:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes. HiLo48 (talk) 05:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

@HiLo48: TLDR. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

@Billybob2002 - Do you have a specific complaint about some part of this article or is your comment just intended to be the tired old "everyone is biased against my point-of-view" rhetoric? NickCT (talk) 21:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 April 2013

Please add middle initial to Sasha Obama's full name. It should read "Natasha M. Obama" This is based on the recent Obama tax return available at http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/complete_return_president_obama_2012.pdf Jamccull (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Far too trivial to care about. Tarc (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Btw, it is amazing how looks like a tax return form in the US, they assume that everybody is retarded. 91.83.10.105 (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)