User talk:Barkeep49

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NPPSchool graduated userbox

Hi Barkeep49, Good day. I would like to propose NPPSCHOOL graduate user box and a NPPSCHOOL logo/graphic logo (like that of CUVA). Kindly give me your thoughts. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 05:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I think it's a great idea. If you feel up to designing it, great. Otherwise I'd be happy to give it a go when I have a bit more time on my hands. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:48, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Good to know. I might not able to them it a the moment as I need to get the software set up and my only laptop is about to break into two (there is a huge crack between my screen and the CPU and I cant even close the screen - dont think it will last very long as it has been in such condition for 2 weeks now - need to get a new one :( ) plus I need to move back to AUS soon as I currently resides in SEA thus I will be a little busy looking for place to settle down. Just ping me when you have started so we dont both do the same thing :). Cheers. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 06:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep49, I manage to find a software program which I would do some graphic work and have a few draft on the NPP SCHOOL and NPP reveiwer user boxes. I placed them at the very bottom NPP material page. Kindly have a look and let me know your thoughts. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 18:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, I have done another NPP school and reviewer user box - let me know your thoughts - you can find them my sandbox - here. thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 10:51, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I like the work. I am not a huge fan of the blue and red but everything else is great. My personal favorite is npp round logo but it like all the work. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, I have changed to blue and dark blue, let me know which one you prefer or you can just change the color as you see fit. Cheers. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 00:56, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I like the dark blue better. Question, though. Does it make sense, for the rights boxes, to use your new ones or adjust the existing one? I would think we should change that one rather than make an alternative template. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, I have created 3 NPP School version using the original template with slight adjustments. Let me know of your thoughts. Thanks in advance. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 07:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I went ooh when i saw them - those are very attractive too. I'm kind of agnostic about whether we should keep the modified wiki logo or your new logo. I definitely like the blue on blue graduate boxes you made in this latest revision. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, It is up to you. The modified version would be the extension from the original reviewer version and it would be in the same design family and association. The new one would be, well... new I guess. Let me know. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 05:16, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, Just want to check with you regarding the NPPSchool userbox status as one of my trainee would be graduate from the program soon. Kindly let me know. Thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 17:11, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I think we should go for it. Pick your favorite at this point though I would suggest, based on the feedback we received, to go with perhaps the one at the top that uses the traditional logo. Congrats on graduating a student. I look forward to seeing their application at PERM. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:02, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, OK and thank you. The student had already granted the patroller user right and enrolled to the program because they are new to the task and would like to gain more knowledge on reviewing new articles. Cheers. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 02:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49, G'day. One of my students has just graduate from NPPSCHOOL and just wonder would the new NPPSCHOOL - see thumb|NPPS Cross Dark Blue &Light Blue be subsituted the current logo at Wikipedia:New pages patrol/School (very top of the page on the left). I also created the cat for the NPPSCHOOL graduate template. template doc and cats - see Template:User NPPSCHOOL/Graduate, Template:User NPPSCHOOL/Graduate/doc, and . However, the

This user is an NPP SCHOOL graduate.

doesn't turn up right where by "program by graduate" should not be there but somehow it appears on the NPPSCHOOL graduate user box. I am not technical and tried many times to correct it but failed to do so, wonder if you could help and if not, could you point me to template editor who might be kindly enough to lend a hand. Thanks in advance and MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR to you Barkeep49!!!. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 05:43, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, I changed the logo at NPPS, however I'm not sure what your second question was. Can you try reasking? Barkeep49 (talk) 19:03, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@CASSIOPEIA: What do you picture the userbox looking like? You can just describe it, no wikicode needed Kevin ;(aka L235 · t · c) 19:06, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep 49, thank you for changing the logo at NPPS.

L235 and Barkeep49. I think the red colour text "graduate" is for sub and it will turn "blue color" once it is done - see User:Interstellarity. Since the userbox right side is blue in colour, the user name cant be since. Could we change it to either (1) just "This user has graduated from the NPPSCHOOL program" and link WP:NPPSHOOL but in white colour or (2) keep the all the text "This user has graduated from the NPPSCHOOL program by graduate." and link WP:NPPSCHOOL and graduate in white colour. I am not sure what I say above is more confusing to guys or more clearer of what I want and hope is the later. Suggestions are welcome. Kindly help. Cheers. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 07:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

CASSIOPEIA, gotcha. What do you think of just going with the version I've just made? Alternatively, wouldn't we want the instructor's name in the template not the graduate's name? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep49, Good to know you get what I meant. Either way is fine. The student who has just graduated from my program sub it with the instructor name (my user name). My take is to be consistent, so all the NPPS userbox is the same here on. Your thoughts? CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 04:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy holidays

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NPP advice: Ram Prakash Dwivedi

Hi Barkeep49, I hope you don't mind if I ask for advice here rather than NPP talk (I don't want to add items that are easily resolvable). If you don't mind I just want to check that I am following procedure with Ram Prakash Dwivedi. Academic notability would be an area I know well and as written this article does not indicate it. A database search to establish the impact of his research in the field I did provides inconclusive results. However, it might be the case that the author of the article or someone with better access to Indian sources could update the article to satisfy a different criteria of academic notability, perhaps WP:NACADEMIC #2--I'm not sure. I added the PROD template based on the lack of secondary sources, the promotional tone, and the failure to clearly indicate academic notability. Should I have just nominated it straight for deletion instead? Or is it ok to use PROD with feedback to give an editor time for a major rewrite? AugusteBlanqui (talk) 09:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

AugusteBlanqui, I always welcome questions especially as sometimes other talk page watchers who might have expertise to lend will chime in as well. Working backwards, I think editors should always choose the least disruptive deletion method and so there is nothing wrong with PROD'ing an article you believe, in good faith, not to be notable. If you think the likelihood of sources existing that you can't access is high enough then you should go to AfD but I don't think that's the case in this scenario. That said one small quibble - if you're PROD'ing (or CSD'ing) something it shouldn't be marked as reviewed (but it should be if you're going to AfD).

I think NACADEMIC #2 is generally pretty easy to find and it's more likely someone will claim an accomplishment satisfies that when it doesn't than it being excluded altogether. NACADEMIC is my least favorite SNG (give me a good FOOTY one any day instead) and I'm appreciative of people like you who patrol it. I see no indication that you got this wrong and think you took the right steps to evaluate notability. There is a margin of error in my evaluation as well but I think you should feel good about your process here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Barkeep49, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, PATH SLOPU 14:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

New Page Review newsletter December 2019

Reviewer of the Year

This year's Reviewer of the Year is Rosguill. Having gotten the reviewer PERM in August 2018, they have been a regular reviewer of articles and redirects, been an active participant in the NPP community, and has been the driving force for the emerging NPP Source Guide that will help reviewers better evaluate sourcing and notability in many countries for which it has historically been difficult.

Special commendation again goes to Onel5969 who ends the year as one of our most prolific reviewers for the second consecutive year. Thanks also to Boleyn and JTtheOG who have been in the top 5 for the last two years as well.

Several newer editors have done a lot of work with CAPTAIN MEDUSA and DannyS712 (who has also written bots which have patrolled thousands of redirects) being new reviewers since this time last year.

Thanks to them and to everyone reading this who has participated in New Page Patrol this year.

Top 10 Reviewers over the last 365 days

Rank	Username	Num reviews	Log
1	Rosguill (talk)	47,395	Patrol Page Curation
2	Onel5969 (talk)	41,883	Patrol Page Curation
3	JTtheOG (talk)	11,493	Patrol Page Curation
4	Arthistorian1977 (talk)	5,562	Patrol Page Curation
5	DannyS712 (talk)	4,866	Patrol Page Curation
6	CAPTAIN MEDUSA (talk)	3,995	Patrol Page Curation
7	DragonflySixtyseven (talk)	3,812	Patrol Page Curation
8	Boleyn (talk)	3,655	Patrol Page Curation
9	Ymblanter (talk)	3,553	Patrol Page Curation
10	Cwmhiraeth (talk)	3,522	Patrol Page Curation

(The top 100 reviewers of the year can be found here)

Redirect autopatrol

A recent Request for Comment on creating a new redirect autopatrol pseduo-permission was closed early. New Page Reviewers are now able to nominate editors who have an established track record creating uncontroversial redirects. At the individual discretion of any administrator or after 24 hours and a consensus of at least 3 New Page Reviewers an editor may be added to a list of users whose redirects will be patrolled automatically by DannyS712 bot III.

Source Guide Discussion

Set to launch early in the new year is our first New Page Patrol Source Guide discussion. These discussions are designed to solicit input on sources in places and topic areas that might otherwise be harder for reviewers to evaluate. The hope is that this will allow us to improve the accuracy of our patrols for articles using these sources (and/or give us places to perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nominating for deletion). Please watch the New Page Patrol talk page for more information.

This month's refresher course

While New Page Reviewers are an experienced set of editors, we all benefit from an occasional review. This month consider refreshing yourself on Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features). Also consider how we can take the time for quality in this area. For instance, sources to verify human settlements, which are presumed notable, can often be found in seconds. This lets us avoid the (ugly) 'Needs more refs' tag.

Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 16:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Deletion of Devlin Waugh

You didn't give any reasons for deletion when you closed the AfD debate. Aren't you supposed to? Also you included another AfD debate in the closure template, which implies that you didn't know it was there, which further implies that you didn't read to the end. So how can I fairly conclude that you closed it in good faith? Richard75 (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Seconded. I'm a bit stunned given how poor the AFD closing appears, with not only the claim that there were no sources provided during the AFD, when 3 sources were provided in 3 separate comments, and two of them weren't refuted during the AFD. How isn't this a relist, if not an outright overturn? Did you read my comments before closing the DRV? Nfitz (talk) 01:04, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Richard75, deletion review is not Articles for Deletion. In this instance, there had already been a deletion discussion about Devlin Waugh. You then appealed the close of this discussion to deletion review. At deletion review, the question is "were there errors in the process". A consensus of editors contributing suggested, no there were not and the original AfD close should be endorsed. Now if I made errors in my formatting I would love to fix those. I can tell you that I did indeed the to the end. Multiple times in fact and even considered how to weight the participation of how those who had contributed to the original discussion and those who were contributing for the first time at deletion review. I'm sorry you feel questions about the good faith of my close and other than assuring you I approached this with an open mind all I can offer are my answers to your questions above and others you might have. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Nfitz: yes I did indeed see your overturn sentiment at DRV. Despite that I still saw a consensus endorsing the AfD closure. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Why no closing statement? How did you have the time to read it, let alone Multiple times in fact and even considered how to weight the participation of how those who had contributed to the original discussion and those who were contributing for the first time at deletion review given you closed the discussion 1 minutes after I posted my comment? Also, DRV isn't AFD - yet reading the AFD, there were two uncontested sources - and the one that people didn't agree was good, was undiscussed, and appears to be the best one. There maybe be problems with one of those sources, that people seemed to accept in the AFD, but that's not the AFD consensus. Nfitz (talk) 01:11, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Nfitz, I had begun to close the AfD when your first response came in. I then modified the template at which time your response had been edited so I read it again to see what had changed before my edit went through. If it is helpful for me to add a short closing statement to the DRV I would be happy to do so and will do that after finishing this reply. As for the AfD itself I was not a participant in the AfD. Or the DRV. As a closer it is my responsibility to reflect the consensus of the participants in the discussion at DRV not to weigh in on what happened or didn't happen at AfD. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:19, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

There was only one minute between my comment, and my edit - which means at best you had 2 minutes to read my comment, and consider it. Surely, if you are validating the closure - and the basis of the closure is that no sources were cited - when in actuality three sources were cited in 3 different comments during the AFD - and it's put forward (unchallenged!) that in the DRV that the closure is invalid because clearly whoever closed the AFD couldn't have read the AFD properly, given they missed all 3 comments pointing out sources - then you have to weigh in on what happened in the AfD! Nfitz (talk) 01:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Nfitz, we both agree your comment came close to my close. I say I read it, twice because of edit conflicts. You write that I had 2 minutes at best to read your comment and consider it. These seem not to be in conflict with each other. If you're actually saying I didn't read your comment (or maybe didn't consider it) I can only tell you I did read it and did consider it. I agree with you as well that there is a consensus that the closing statement was incorrectly worded. That does not mean that Sandstein incorrectly closed the AfD. Indeed there is a consensus at DRV that he did not judge the AfD as a whole incorrectly. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:06, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Even when there's no disagreement that they could never have properly read the AFD? Ignoring that, I'm not convinced there is consensus here ... it's 6-5 (not that it's a vote) ... looking at the endorse comments, two only discuss the quality of the sources, rather than the AFD or the close itself, while two other focus on the sources. One says "not a supervote" ... uh, ok, but is it a valid close? The other merely references an irrelevant regional law principle - reversible error without noting why completely missing 3 different comments with sources isn't reversible. I suppose the outcome of no consensus rather than endorse isn't really any different - but I'm not sure appropriate time was given for anyone else to consider my comment. Nfitz (talk) 02:41, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		Thanks for standing up and participating as a candidate in the recent Arbcom elections. I know I encouraged you to consider doing so, and I was very happy to see your name on the list. I still hold that you are a solid candidate, and I hope you'll consider running again in the future. Risker (talk) 07:06, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Risker. I appreciate your thoughts throughout this process and look forward to our having a chance to collaborate sometime in the future. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Merry!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Barkeep49, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, ★Trekker (talk) 14:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas everybody!!!

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold,

I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

Luke 2:10-11 (King James Version)

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Happy Holidays

Thank you for continuing to make Wikipedia the greatest project in the world. I hope you have an excellent holiday season. Lightburst (talk) 23:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Barkeep49, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, Kingsif (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

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Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays

Merry Christmas, Barkeep49! Or Season's Greetings or Happy Winter Solstice! As the year winds to a close, I would like to take a moment to recognize your hard work and offer heartfelt gratitude for all you do for Wikipedia. And for all the help you've thrown my way over the years. May this Holiday Season bring you nothing but joy, health and prosperity.CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:11, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Be well at Christmas

	Have a WikiChristmas and a PediaNewYear
	Be well. Keep well. Have a lovely Christmas. SilkTork (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

2 more sleeps!

🔔🎁⛄️🎅🏻 Atsme Talk 📧 17:54, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

NPP

Hi. Except for the infernal and unabating backlog, I'm really pleased about the way the leadership of NPR is working out for you. I do realise however, that it's a huge task and big responsibility for one person. I did it single-handedly for nearly a decade and it's amazing how much time I have for other things now that I'm able to step back. You're almost certainly going to need some help and I was wondering that with Rosguill now having been granted the bit, if the two of you would consider sharing some of the work, with Rosguill as co-coord, and with ICPH as another. Most big projects have several coords. Anyway, it's really none of my business now, and it's entirely up to you.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for all you have done and and are still doing for NPP, and wish you all the best for the festivities (whichever you celebrate, if any) and happiness and good health for the New Year  :) Chris (Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC))

Kudpung, thanks for the kind words. I'd actually had a conversation with ICPH about officially being a coordinator with me and they indicated that it wasn't a good fit for them. When Ros went to RfA I thought about that too but have been busy with other bits and haven't given it full consideration. I hope you're having a great Christmas. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:33, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Request feedback

Hello Barkeep49. I’m writing to ask why did you delete the page Sprout Social I’ve created recently? Why did it look like an advertisement for you? Recently I created the article about Roger Souvereyns and it was published. I’m a new editor here so I’m just learning how everything works. I want to improve editing skills and would be glad if you could tell me the reason for the deletion. Thanks. --Alishka93 (talk) 08:44, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Alishka93, hi there. Thanks for your question and welcome to Wikipedia. I've no doubt that it was frustrating for your new article to be deleted and appreciate your coming here with such a learner's mindset. So the the person who tagged the article originally did indeed tag it for promotional material. I probably would not have deleted it on those criteria. However, the article had previously had a highly promotional version, which yours was similar to though shorter and much less promotional. This previous version had been deleted in after a formal discussion and so I deleted the article as a recreation of an article deleted after a discussion. My suggestion, as a newer user, would be to go through Articles for Creation for this particular article topic. Just a note, that the standard for starting an article about a company is much higher than for a chef. Hope that helps. If you have further questions please don't hesitate to ask them. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep49 Thanks a lot for your feedback, it was really valuable! I'll keep in mind your advice. Happy holidays! --Alishka93 (talk) 08:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Templar Trail

Hi there, After receiving your comments, I edited the Templar Trail piece and added more outside references. I also changed my login name. Hope this works better. If not, please help me edit it to make it work. Thanks. ~~pilgrimstales~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.189.57.11 (talk) 12:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Alpiner123 the biggest problem was that the text came from a copyrighted source. If you are the owner of that text you may learn how to give permission for its use on Wikipedia here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Barkeep49, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, Thanks for some real help this year, it truly was appreciated. It seemed to go well for you too, but to an even better 2020! Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosebagbear (talk • contribs) 06:19, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

Peace Dove

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension. Happy Holidays to you and yours. ―Buster7 ☎ 14:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@Buster7: You already gave this message to Barkeep49 before. Interstellarity (talk) 14:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Hello Barkeep49: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, DBigXrayᗙ Happy Holidays! 18:20, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

happy holidays!

MrLinkinPark333 (talk) is wishing you Happy Holidays! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user Happy Holidays, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

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MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Good luck

豊かな十年へようこそ/WELCOME TO THE D20s

Miraclepine wishes you a Merry Christmas, a Happy New Year, and a prosperous decade of change and fortune.
このミラPはBarkeep49たちのメリークリスマスも新年も変革と幸運の豊かな十年をおめでとうございます！
フレフレ、みんなの未来！/GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR FUTURE!
ミラP 02:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Joyous Season

I wish that you may have a very Happy Holiday! Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Hogmanay, Festivus or your hemisphere's Solstice, this is a special time of year for almost everyone! May the New Year provide you joy and fulfillment! Thanks for everything you do here. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 10:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

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Happy Christmas from Australia!

Hello Barkeep49: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:37, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

(Adapted from Template:Season's Greetings1)

Happy Boxing Day

This has something to do with Boxing Day... I guess?

I have don't know anything about this holiday. For whatever reason it's a thing. I have to imagine there is some backstory there or whatever. People do what they do after all. Cool.. Alright. Yeah, cool. Sure, I guess. Do people do anything special on Boxing Day? I would not know. This has never come up in my real life except as a passing joke on some TV shows once or twice. I hope your Boxing Day is... whatever it's supposed to be like.      Cheers. –MJL ‐Talk‐🤶 03:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The famous Boxing Day tree.

Happy New Year Barkeep49!

Happy New Year!

Hello Barkeep49:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve the encyclopedia for Wikipedia's readers, and have a happy and enjoyable New Year! Cheers, Donner60 (talk) 06:23, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

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Celestina007 (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Help!

Hi there - I wonder whether you've ever had this happen to you. I was reviewing Jeff J Hunter, and nominated to AfD, while I was filling in the paperwork Thjarkur draftified it. I'm content with draftification as an outcome, but need to undo my AfD nom - is there an easy way to do that, or do I need to go through manually reverting myself at AfD and all the various lists of deletion discussions? Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 17:36, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah - speedy work, thanks! I've manually reverted at the various deletion discussions - thought I'd better tidy up quickly before other people edited them. For future reference, is there a quick/safe procedure to follow for this kind of situation? GirthSummit _(blether) 17:41, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Girth Summit seemed like the easiest thing was just to close the AfD rather than revert it. But that is a new edit conflict for me. See something new everyday on the Wikipedias :). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Opinion about New page reviewer

Hi, Barkeep49. I hope you are well. I wanted to known that about my new page reviewer permission will expire on 02 January 2020, So can i request for again before 2 January? I have been working hardly since than ever before when i was getting this permission. [ actually i want to indefinitely this right because i'm from the beginning interested to helping article editing ]. I hope that i will get a positive answer from you. Have a great Night.-Nahal^(T) 17:36, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

NahalAhmed, yes by all means post asking for the permission permanently. I haven't looked at your reviews but I can see you've done more than enough to get a good sense of where things stand. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) Barkeep49 (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep49, Thank you so much for the good response. I will request for it tomorrow. Advance happy new year 2020. Happy Volunteering.-Nahal^(T) 17:46, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

AN/I close

I can't find the AN/I close for the pricing. QuackGuru (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, here you go. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. QuackGuru (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Editors are now tagging the content since they can't delete it. Is this appropriate? QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, it's a bit of a grey area but I do think goes against the spirit of the ANI prohibition. As such, I have asked that editor on their talk page to not do it any further. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd definitely use this discussion and the corresponding edits in an ArbCom proceeding on the subject. potentially misleading edit summary, edit warring to de-emphasize a dispute, and the lack of engagement in resolving the dispute. --Ronz (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this what I think it is? Removing a bot-recovered citation? [1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Probably not. Seraphimblade removed all the pricing information, and the bot jumped in before it could all be restored. --Ronz (talk) 21:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thanks, Ronz. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

There's certainly enough issues of behavior by enough editors that an ArbCom case could be had. Does that create conditions that allow for consensus on the content issues at play to be solved? Maybe but it's no guarantee and even if it does create the conditions it's likely to be a tough road to achieving it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

On a related note, I've been holding off on acting on Wikipedia_talk:Prices#Move_to_user_space?. --Ronz (talk) 23:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Ronz, replying there. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Maybe the article talk pages need protection. QuackGuru (talk) 02:39, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I have closed that thread per the ANI discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Can a draft of List of drug prices be expanded with more drug prices? It is not an article. It is all about drug prices. I was planning to update it next year and recruit more editors. QuackGuru (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, my first reaction was "of course it can be". But then I started thinking it through more and realized it wasn't so simple. So sure it can be updated but with the following caveats. First, the safest way to ensure that it doesn't become a battleground would be to move it to your userspace rather than leaving it in draft space. Similarly, you would need to be careful about who you invited to edit to ensure it did not become a new battleground. It would not be appropriate to move it to mainspace until consensus is reached about the broader question of how we address issues of drug costs/prices. And once that consensus is reached the article might need to be changed to reflect that consensus. Does that all make sense? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I want to leave it in draftsapce for anyone to contribute to it. I want to recruit students to expand it. If someone nominates it for deletion I would request it be quickly closed until things are worked out about the prices. QuackGuru (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, if you leave it in draftspace then it is virtually impossible for it to avoid becoming a new battleground because you can't hand pick who gets to contribute. So people who disagree with you about pricing would be just as able to contribute as the students who you hope to recruit (and for the perils of inviting students to contribute to highly contentious areas I would strongly suggest you read this current discussion). That kind of editing process would run afoul of the spirit and the letter of the ANI consensus. I would strongly suggest that adding your voice to the discussion around formulating the RfC would be more productive than time spent editing that draft. The choice to engage, or not, is ultimately up to you and I have and will defend your right not to participate there but if you care as much as it seems you do that's a place where you can help move this process along so we get consensus and you could further improve that draft in the manner you wish. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Since it's being discussed now: I ran across it yesterday. It appears to be a list that QuackGuru put together focusing specifically on high-priced medications. It also looks like at least some of it is QuackGuru's own work, rather than simply coping content/refs from existing articles... It would be helpful if QuackGuru would share from the experience of doing this work. --Ronz (talk) 18:25, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

This is not an article about adding pricing or removing pricing for an article about a drug. It is about the price list of drugs. It requires numerous contributors to expand it. I would like to start a discussion at AN/I to request it can be expanded. It can remain in draftspace. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I have just posted a general update at AN. In that update I stated that an appeal (yours) was going to be forthcoming. In the interests of keeping the conversation together I'd ask you to consider launching your appeal as a subsection of that update. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

The appeal could turn into a deletion discussion. I think I should just wait for now. It is just a draft. No readers will be reading it. QuackGuru (talk) 01:19, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough QuackGuru. Happy New Year to you. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:21, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Barkeep, can I please fix your typos and word omissions at AN? After all, typo is my middle name! Check it over, as some typos and word omissions lead to a lack of clarity. Otherwise, very nice summary (glad you didn't attempt to summarize my mess :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, it's now at WT:MOSMED. I promise I did read it over before posting but yes go ahead and feel free to correct some typos and word omissions. I benefit greatly from the editing of others :). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Sometimes it's hard to see your own word omissions, because you knew what you meant and think the word is there when it's not : ) I will do an edit there, then, only if you promise to be right behind me to correct anything I may get wrong! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course :). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:42, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Activity

I see that User:Pbsouthwood added a clarify tag yesterday to Hydroxychloroquine. The drug is an anti-malarial but also has secondary uses for treating rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and porphyria cutanea tarda. Peter asked "for what" the treatment price "per month" referred to. James then edited the article to clarify "treat rheumatoid arthritis or lupus", to remove the UK price completely, and to update the MSH source from 2014 to 2015 while changing the price from a range to, what appears to be, the median of two Buyer prices for 200mg tablets multiplied by 60 [never mind that the source does not give a dose for treating those diseases, or that two Buyer prices isn't "the developing world"]. I note the article does not date that price to 2015, so readers may think it current. I think it is not unreasonable to question "what for", especially as it actually appears that an anti-malaria drug is being given a "developing world" monthly cost, not for treating malaria, but for rheumatoid arthritis or lupus!

While Peter may have not been aware that "There is an embargo on adding or removing pricing during this process", James most certainly is. I don't think Peter's query, nor the clarifying "treat rheumatoid arthritis or lupus", break the embargo, but all the other changes, updates and deletions do. I don't think it would be wise to go around tagging all 540+ drug articles with templates asking to clarify what the treatment condition is or query where on earth the dose information is coming from. -- Colin°^Talk 16:08, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

(ec) My apologies, I was looking up unrelated information and added the query, not expecting it to be addressed immediately - these things generally remain unfixed for months. I was not intending to provoke anyone to break an embargo. Tagging that price claim is something that anyone might have done in complete ignorance of the dispute.
While it is not a surprise that there is an embargo, I don't remember actually reading about it, but I may have done so and simply forgotten. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:34, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Pbsouthwood, I agree tagging the price could be done in complete ignorance of the dispute and was indeed done by another editor unaware of the dispute a couple days back. And even for those who are aware of the dispute and the embargo, my interpretation of adding a disputed tag as a grey area that goes against the spirit of the AN/I consensus is not something anyone who hasn't been following closely (including watching this talk page) could possibly know. So no worries about your tag. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Noting that Colin is forbidden from pinging or notifying Doc James on his talk about this discussion, but Ronz has done that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:07, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I took that drug for giardiasis when I lived in South America. I see no mention of yet another use for the med in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Colin: I agree most of that update is appropriate and helpful. I have also indicated above to Peter that adding a dispute tag is a grey area it was fine he didn't know about. I have reminded the editor who added/removed information not to do so. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:02, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Are you all seriously claiming that sourcing content to "Walmart receipt" is anything but vandalism? Did anyone even bother to look at the edit before they tried to score cheap points in an edit dispute. Barkeep can you please confirm that your prohibition forces editors to keep obvious vandalism in arguments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlmostFrancis (talk • contribs) 19:00, January 1, 2020 (UTC)

AlmostFrancis, what Walmart receipt are you talking about? And this is not "my prohibition" this is an embargo enacted by the community. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:05, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

AlmostFrancis, Please read WP:Vandalism andWP:ASPERSIONS, and please tone down your language. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 08:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Activity update

Just a note to those around here, I was just asked on DocJames talk page specifically about updating. I had discussed this previously with two other uninvolved syosps on IRC and all three< of us feel that updating information already present in an article does not qualify as "adding or removing pricing" and can be done even while the RfC creation process plays out. courtesy pings to @Ronz, Colin, SandyGeorgia, and QuackGuru:. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 06:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I think that tagging/amending/updating prices on articles should be included in the moratorium. While I have no intention of editing the prices at present, the contentious issue is not just whether prices are included or not but that existing prices make false claims, do not represent what the source says, cherry-pick one database record rather than another, use prices drawn from buyers and suppliers, etc, etc. All these issues have been a source of conflict over the years. I wouldn't support the idea that James alone is permitted to modify their own price statements, and all evidence suggests that anyone else amending them will result in conflict. It would also be highly disruptive if editors modified the article text of drugs being used as RFC examples such that they deviated from the examples presented at RFC. We don't want the RFC discussion on what should be said to be played out by edit warring on the articles. It would simply be better that any statement about prices be left alone for now. -- Colin°^Talk 10:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, Barkeep; I am following the discussion at Doc James talk.

1. These personal exceptions for Doc James are part of why we are where we are. It is awkward that we can't consolidate conversations because of a) prohibitions on pinging/posting and b) lack of engagement in one place. One point of the ANI close was to prevent disputes from spreading. At ANI, "The question of drug pricing is remitted to a single venue". Full Stop. Your words. I agreed with JzG on these conditions instead of supporting a topic ban on Doc James as requested by another sysop (Nil Einne). Doc James has not come to the single venue to discuss, and one party is prohibited from posting to Doc James talk, and yet that party can be discussed there. This is a formula for dispute-spreading. There should be, in fact, no discussion of the price dispute at James talk, other than your notifications and further clarifications with James and Peter.

2. I have always been and still am opposed to back-channel decisions on IRC. (That is not "a single venue".) Conversations regarding a sysop who is continually given exceptions for behavior (eg edit warring) should be in full view of everyone else affected. Who are the two sysops who agreed that we can grant this change to the clearly established conditions? By conducting business off-Wiki, your excellent conduct in this matter so far puts you at risk for being drawn in to the precise pattern that needs to be addressed. Please provide the names of those sysops.

3. My recommendation is that you walk back this private discussion and decision, and leave the ANI close as was clearly agreed. I agreed with JzG's approach only because it was so carefully worded, and having been down this road before, knew what might happen. It has. Doc James breached the close. Please respect your own ANI close, and do not complicate a years-long dispute with non-public discussions where three sysops decide to exempt one sysop from a community agreement. OWNERSHIP is at the core of the pricing dispute and all previous disputes: exempting one editor, who has not engaged with the rest of us who are attempting to solve the problem, from a community-wide decision which accounted for this very possibility furthers the very problem we are attempting to solve. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I was one of the editors who was consulted on IRC. The off-wiki consultation was clearly disappointing for you, and I'm sorry about that and will aim to be more transparent in this matter. It probably won't make you feel better, but I was presented the question in a very abstract sense and was not aware of the identity of the participants, and certainly did not intend my comments to be about giving a particular sysop an advantage or special exception over others. My reasoning was that the spirit of verifiability doesn't allow us to keep old bad information if newer, equally- or better- sourced information is available -- it must be updated or removed, and the closure explicitly prohibits removing it, so updating it is the only option. Additionally, updating pricing doesn't seem to involve the same dispute as to whether prices should be included or not. Thanks for your comments -- I hope I have addressed some of your concerns, and if not, please don't hesitate to reach out further. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 18:22, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

it must be updated or removed Howso? What's the hurry? Is there some BLP-like requirement? --Ronz (talk) 20:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: thanks for all your thoughts here. I want to acknowledge that I've seen them. I think some of your criticisms of me are more than fair but want to take a few hours to think on them before replying (especially because other pieces of the analysis I respectfully disagree with at first blush). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

For today at least, pinging me will only increase my need for a calming cup of tea. That "tipping point" has been passed by sysops allowing the very behaviors we seek to address, to fester and grow by a participant who has not engaged. This Is The Pattern. Regular editors, who want to add medical content, have no place on this project. We have competent, qualified medical editors who have written numerous guidelines, featured articles and featured lists, but who do not have a sysop flag attached to their account, who are doing everything they can to assure medical content on Wikipedia is accurate, and being undermined by those who have a flag attached to their name. This is why good editors quit. This is why medical content is suffering. This is why good editors no longer engage to remove vandalism and quackery. This is why good editors stop trying to bring medical content to featured status. This is why I stopped editing for years and unwatched hundreds of medical articles. This is Wikipedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Sandy, (who I'm intentionally not pinging based on what she wrote above as there's only so much calming tea in the world but who I will ping tomorrow) thanks for all your thoughts. As I've expressed to you in the past, when you were working on the edit request, I knew that being the sole sysop involved in these issues was going to be trouble sooner or later. And now we're here, in part, because I took a half measure in this regard. There had been an increasing number of decisions that I had been asked to make about this situation. While the all the decisions had been respected I had become uncomfortable being the sole uninvolved sysop attempting to properly carry out the community's will in this regard. What I should have done was to solicit wider feedback formulate a different version of the update I'd posted and then reverted at AN. What I did instead was to reach out to others on IRC. I understand why this opaque measure rubbed you the wrong way. While I appreciate L235 chiming in, what I should have done after making the first mistake of consulting on IRC rather than AN was to just own the decision as my own - as I felt that updating prices was ok before the discussion and after. I included the IRC mention as a way of being clear what I had done but rather than being transparent it diffused responsibility for the decision in a way that it shouldn't have. Why was updating ok with me when I'd said even adding a tag was not? In my thinking it's different because it's not adding something new and because the embargo is designed to ameliorate the conflict not preserve bad information.

In the time that I've been working on this conflict I've worked hard to treat all editors with respect. Especially because the core group of editors, whether they carry the sysop user right or not, deserve immense respect for the longstanding ways they've made Wikipedia a better place. I can, and will if you or some other editor would like, explain how I've tried to treat all editors the same regardless of sysop status. But essentially my approach has been to make a polite request for specific action where I've observed a line being crossed. So far every time I've made a specific request to take/rescind an action the editor has agreed. I have also, attempted to follow the ANI close statement that there will be "no rehashing of grievances" by acting on not what's happened in in the past with editors but what's happening now. All of this has applied to all editors including DocJames.

But I also remember acutely what it's like when you don't have the sysop flag. I wrote, in a line I had to remove from my ACE statement due to space constraints, "I remember what it’s like to feel put down not or otherwise dismissed because" I wasn't a sysop. We lose so many good editors for so many reasons and I'm sorry that the conditions here are such that we're going to (potentially) lose you. The places you've chosen to contribute in this dispute have been made better because of your contributions. I can only hope you decide Wikipedia remains worth it.

As to the specific asks you've made, I have struck my statement here and on Doc's talk that refers to the discussion IRC. I am willing to discuss the decision to say that updating is OK further and have now laid out my thinking rather than just giving a "because me and two people you can't comment about said so" reasoning. Just to reiterate, updating feels different than adding or removing because the ANI close was about ameliorating the dispute and where the information is already present updating serves our readers without changing the scope of articles involved in the dispute. If you don't want to discuss it further we can all head back to AN/ANI or go to ArbCom as has been discussed below. If we head to AN/ANI (and obviously if it ends up at ArbCom) it will likely mean I step back from attempting to moderate the dispute for at least a bit to give the community space to weigh-in and indeed offer feedback on my own actions.

As for the final bit of keeping discussion at WT:MOSMED you're absolutely right. It has, at minimum, spread to this page, Doc James' user talk, WT:Prices, Talk:Ivermectin. I'm happy to take a more assertive stance on pushing stuff over there (for instance I should have replied to several of the questions posted here there). As you note some conversation will still be needed at on user talks but this would be much more one on one discussion. To that end if you (or others) want to continue conversations about updating with me, we should create a section to do so there. If you wish to discuss my actions that would of course remain more appropriate for this page (or AN/ANI/ARBCOM). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:29, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

FYI, User:Colin/PriceEdits contains a computer-generated list of all price/cost insertion/deletion edits to 530 drug articles by any editor since 2015. It also contains my analysis of where editors have come into conflict. Plenty examples of why I note my concerns above. To take an example of the kind of "copyedit" being suggested by User:WhatamIdoing at the MEDMOS discussion, an editor changing "the wholesale price in the developing world is" to "The median buyer price according to the International Drug Price Indicator Guide was" sparked an edit war at Lactulose. -- Colin°^Talk 10:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

ArbCom

I think we should give considerable thought to ArbCom at this point to get the continuing behavioral problems under control. --Ronz (talk) 17:15, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure the current behavioural problems are so out of control that requires any urgent ArbCom intervention, provided the moratorium is on drug price edits in articles generally. I can't see anything good with permitting otherwise and don't see why there needs to be any rush to fix prices that mostly cite a database from 2014 or book from 2015. It would greatly help if certain parties acknowledged their edits were controversial and agreed to pause. As I mention above, permitting editing during an RFC is only likely to lead to grief.

I would still like to press ahead with the RFC that WAID has initiated creating. Hopefully something can be created that is worth offering to the community. I would like some clarification wrt where that RFC text should be discussed (RFC talk, or still at MEDMOS).

There is of course very much a long-running user-behaviour problem wrt medical article editing, of which the drug prices are but one symptom, and I have little doubt they will end up at arbcom. But the community needs to exhaust all normal venues for dealing with it, and it seems we must deal with it as a content dispute first. So let's try that approach and see where it takes us. -- Colin°^Talk 18:04, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

But the community needs to exhaust all normal venues for dealing with it Well said. I have to say I'm pretty exhausted with it. SandyGeorgia [2] has indicated something similar. I'm hoping that exhaustion is the reason the WT:MOSMED discussion lacks participation from the editors who have regularly weighed in on the discussion. --Ronz (talk) 18:43, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

My own two cents is that it is not premature to head to ArbCom at this point. It's also not the only option for addressing the issues (at least right now). However, if an editor feels it's the best way, well there probably is enough evidence that the community has exhausted all normal venues. I think it all depends on how much hope you have that the conflict will remain calm enough until an RfC can be launched. While I have no less hope that an RfC can be launched (though not certain it will) if things remain calm, each of the past few days have given me less hope that things will remain calm. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:39, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've been warming to the idea of an ArbCom case recently. I was the main filing party for the GMO case, and I might be willing to file for this one too. But I think that it needs to wait until either (1) everyone gives up on having an RfC, which hasn't happened yet, or (2) things take a bad turn during the RfC. And I have a suggestion for anyone who might be watching here: remaining silent at the discussion about RfC formulation may end up being a bad look, if a case happens. Better to make a good-faith expression of opinion there, even if it doesn't get listened to. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:15, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Second opinion?

Hi - if you have a minute, see Eric D. Schlager. The article is short on RS and long on puffery - I draftified it, and left the author (whose username implies a connection with the subject) some messages, but they've ignored me and republished it into mainspace. I'm leaning towards G11 for the mainspace article, and reiterating to the author that they should be going through AfC with their draft due to their connection with the subject, but thought I should get a second opinion. Any thoughts? GirthSummit _(blether) 15:05, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Girth Summit, when I went to look at the article I found it already tagged for G11. In reading the article I found the tag appropriate and deleted it as such. The editor, in my book, runs afoul of WP:CORPNAME - we have evidence of what they edit and it ties into their username. You guidance to go through AfC for Schlager is the right one. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Barkeep49, thanks - yes, the username is also an issue, I thought I'd give them a chance to disclose their connection rather than just blocking them, but I'll discuss that with them if they respond to me. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 16:28, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

		Happy New Year!
		🏈May your new year go better than the 31 teams who passed up on this guy🏈 Love, Action Jackson

Praxidicae (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Praxidicae and I hope you have a great 2020 even after my preferred team beats your preferred team in the Super Bowl. I do feel the need, as a Wikipedian, to point out that only 28 teams passed on Jackson (4 teams didn't have a pick before 1.32) and that one of those 28 teams were the Ravens. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

References

You've got mail!

Hello, Barkeep49. Please check your email; you've got mail!
Message added 17:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

∯WBG^converse 17:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Winged Blades of Godric, I've replied. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• I think similar attention is needed at User_talk:ShunDream#Please. Seem to have abandoned his account, after infiltrating into NPP and AfC to accept dubious spam. ∯WBG^converse 09:31, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

  Winged Blades of Godric, pulled. I don't have time to do a deep dive on the articles you've identified but I suspect several others would end up delete if taken to AfD. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Barkeep49,
Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia, and a Happy New Year to you and yours! CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 01:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

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Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 14, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, CodeLyoko^talk 03:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Barkeep49!

Happy New Year!

Barkeep49,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
-Nahal^(T) 22:26, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

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Barkeep49,
Have a great 2020 and thanks for your continued contributions to Wikipedia.

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question

Hey, Barkeep! I wanted to ask you about your take on Stevey7788...it seems like he was clearly a very useful editor for over a decade and made huge contributions. We're sure he's implicated in this COI editing, I guess. Do we think he just was offered the chance to make some money on the side after he'd become a trusted user and just couldn't resist? Are we talking about this kind of thing anywhere? I'm wondering whether it would be worthwhile for us to be in contact with folks like him, asking them to help us discover others doing the same thing, help correct their own bad acts and any bad acts they know by others as a way to sort of repay their debt to the community. --valereee (talk) 14:00, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: - Are you aware of this extensive sock-puppetry spanning for years? I have dealt with pretty many UPE rings via OTRS, and the primary lesson is to never trust anything they say, at face-value (unless we are dealing with rank-noobs). ∯WBG^converse 15:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Winged Blades of Godric, yes, that was an intermediate stop for me. Near the end of the investigation, we see I also deleted G5 everything I could (articles created prior to after 1 November 2017), including the country usernames listed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Musbaunow/Archive. I'll leave the remaining accounts (Techdude3331, Sunnyluo88, Stevey7788 and Siddiqsazzad001 already blocked) for someone else to figure out what to do with. (For the latter two, see the deleted contributions.) from MER-C, which made me think the Stevey7788 account might not be an actual sock, and if not maybe was a previously well-intentioned user who'd been approached with an opportunity (or searched for an opportunity) to edit for money. If Stevey7788 had been for more than a decade a good user but couldn't resist the temptation to earn, perhaps now they're ashamed and would like to make amends. My thought was that someone like S7788 might have knowledge that could help track down the entire organization. They know how they were paid. Petty criminals make good confidential informants. --valereee (talk) 16:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, It's an interesting question. I'm not aware, outside of COIN of this being discussed anywhere. Your idea has merit - I don't know who has enough of a relationship with him that could make an approach. We also don't know, of course, whether he's even monitoring the email on that account anymore. Also the most likely scenario, along the lines of what you suggest, is not that he was approached and turned to the dark side, but rather that he was the one who did the approach; he made an active decision to seek out paid editing. Happy New Year to you Valereee. ​Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

And to you! I suspect you're right, the most likely scenario is that he made the approach. (The prospect of getting caught)*(the perceived risk of it) < the larceny in his soul, unfortunately. But few of us are as bad as the worst thing we've ever done, and people often feel deeply ashamed after they get caught doing something wrong and sincerely would like to make amends. We might be able to use that to WP's advantage. :) --valereee (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, I completely agree which is why it could be worth (someone who isn't me as I've got my Wiki plate full at the moment) figuring out who might be able to send an email seeing if he wants to talk. That figures to be more successful than someone reaching out blind. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year Barkeep49

Happy New Year!

Barkeep49,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
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Celestina007 (talk) 15:37, 1 January 2020 (UTC)