Talk:List of Roman emperors

Byzantium / Later Roman Emperors (redux)

Why is there such a stigma attached to the rightful heirs of Rome? If we're going to include the Britannic and Gallic Empires, the list should continue until 1453(61). -Chris5369 19:24, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well we already have a separate list for them. Adam Bishop 06:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seems unneccessary. Make that a redirect to here. -Chris5369 17:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why? Despite their own beliefs (and apparently some current beliefs), it's a completely different empire. Adam Bishop 00:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And you're basing this on? -Chris5369 06:07, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, my own knowledge of the Byzantine Empire I suppose. We even have a whole other article for it, because, like, it's a whole other thing. Why not just stick it at the end of the Roman Empire article? Adam Bishop 06:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I think we ought to remove those Emperors from this list, even though the argument could be made that they were technically usurpers. But it is a common practice to exclude the Byzantine Emperors from the list of Roman Emperors; it most likely arose from an ancient mistrust in Western Europe with the surviving half of the Empire. The disagreement, however, is over just where to draw the line: state that Diocletian was the first Byzantine emperor? Or would it be Theodoius the Great? Would the last Roman Emperor be Alexander Severus? Some historical accounts assume so. Some accounts end with Constantine the Great, & others end with Romulus Augustulus.

Their choices all depend on just which version of the Roman Empire the authors want to look at: the institutions evolved & changed over the centuries. The princeps of Augustus' time was not the emperor of Severus' time, nor was it the Augustus of Constantine I's time, nor the basilleus of the Byzantine Empire. -- llywrch 19:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well said. My point has been, if we are to include these rebel/sucessor states, then why not Constantinople? We list Romulus Augustulus (weak claim at best), but not Zeno, Leo, or Justinian. The Empire evolved, people shouldn't try to deny it. -Chris5369 22:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is less useful for readers to have only one list. At the same time, I think Adam is simply wrong that the eastern Empire was "a whole different empire." At least until 1204, there was full continuity between the old Roman Empire and the eastern Empire. That is not to say that the empire did not drastically change, but there was still continuity. That said, my preference would be to have our lists overlap. This list can give eastern emperors up through Zeno, noting that the list of eastern emperors continues until 1453 and is at List of Byzantine emperors. That list should start with Constantine, and note that it is listing only eastern emperors, and that western emperors continued until 476. Also, the idea that the list of barbarian kings of Italy is a continuation of Roman emperors seems wrong - Odoacer and the Ostrogoths both recognized the (theoretical) authority of the Emperor in Constantinople. It wasn't until the Lombards that you have kings of Italy who do not recognize the suzerainty of "Rome." Rome itself continued to acknowledge the eastern emperors as their sovereign until the 8th century, sort of at least...it's entirely too complicated, isn't it? john k 00:28, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History, and human affairs in general, are seldom simple affairs. ;) -Chris5369 03:50, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

John, isn't that what we have with the lists now? I'm saying we should keep it like that. By the way, Decius has also suggested moving the Byzantine Empire article to Eastern Roman Empire, see Talk:Byzantine Empire if you are interested in a similar topic. (I don't know why I'm getting so flustered over these things, so I apologize for seeming so annoyed both there and here.) Adam Bishop 04:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the list is basically like that, although I wonder why the eastern emperors from 395 to 491 are listed at the bottom as an afterthought. I noticed the Byzantine Empire thing on my watchlist already, you'll see. john k 04:35, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Whether anybody wants to admit or not, the problem (calling it Roman Empire vs calling it Byzantine) stems from the fact that western historians, falling under the influence of the Catholic church (directly or indirectly), began to use the term Byzantine (and have popularized it well) as a way of not recognizing the eastern Roman Empire as a Roman Empire, though objectively speaking, the Empire was a Roman Empire, as it accurately called itself. Whether people realize it or not, calling it Byzantine is a way of bowing your head to the conceits of an antiquated Catholic church. Decius 05:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And I'm not sure I see your point. English is full of words whose origins are less than honorable, or whose meanings have radically changed over the centuries. Trying to remove these words because of some idea fossilized inside of them can be futile -- & it is in this case.

But I'll happily concede this point to you if you first convince the entire US Conservative movement to stop treating "Liberal" as if it something bad, because doing so promotes autocracy over freedom. The Latin liber (whence the word "Liberal") is Latin for "free", "unrestricted", "outspoken", so by your reasoning every time Rush Limbaugh & his ilk rant against Liberals, they are ranting against freedom. -- llywrch 05:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nope. I'm just referring to this one case, not the other rough examples that are not parallel examples. If you like contemporary examples, here is one for you: African-Americans were formerly officially referred to as "Negroes", but now we refer to them as African-Americans (in the United States). "Byzantine" is a derogatory term, just as "nigger" and "negro" is. It originally implied that one does not recognize the Roman heritage of the Empire; also, by referring to the empire by the old pagan name of the city (rather than Constantinople), there is an implication of paganism or loose religion. Decius 05:51, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Negro" is an obsolete word, one which I haven't heard since I was a kid, many years ago; & it was never considered in any way as offensive as "nigger." As for your claim that "Byzantine" is equally as derogatory, you seem to be the only person to hold this POV. A search on Google with the words "Byzantine" & "derogatory" failed to turn up a single statement that "Byzantine" is derogatory. (The 2 words together return a number of hits, but based on Google's algorhythm of ranking results by the proximity of the 2 words, I'd expect this statement to have appeared in the first few pages of results if there were others who expressed this opinion.)

I'm sorry that the word "Byzantine" offends you, but it is undeniably part of the English language, & is used primarily to neutrally connote a specific period, place & people. Your claims that it is "derogatory", & that it "conceits of an antiquated Catholic church" increasingly appear to be based on your own personal beliefs. And your statement about the Catholic church is offensive, & does not help your argument. -- llywrch 22:07, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If I may I'd like to stick my oar in. Firstly, as a practicing Roman Catholic myself I personally don't find offence in the references to the 'catholic church' (though I perceive that there are those who would). Secondly, the term Byzantine is the generally accepted nomenclature for the empire centred on the city of Byzantium in the same way as Roman is the accepted term for the empire centred on Rome. The name Byzantium itself, as far as can be ascertained had no derogatory origin - it is thought to be derived from the 7thC BCE Greek founder of the city, Buzas of Megara. No more offence could be taken at the term Byzantine in its historical context than could be so inferred by using the word Vandal for the Germanic peoples of Dark Age Europe and North Africa merely on the basis of the current usage of the word vandal; likewise one does not refrain from using the word frog when referring to that amphibian merely because that word is in use as a derogatory term for a French person. --JohnArmagh 22:56, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to extensively beat out this debate further in Wikipedia for the time being, but I anticipated the comparison to Rome, which is not quite the same thing: the name of Rome was not ceremoniously changed, it remained Rome. On the other hand, the old Thracian name Byzantion (Byzantium in Latin) was officially changed to Nova Roma, then later popularly changed to Constantinople, and this new name was also symbolic of the new Christian era, and also of the birth of the Eastern Roman Empire. And the fact remains that using the old name for the city to apply to the Empire is implying (for most people, subconsciously) paganism, and overtly implying that the Empire is somehow not Roman. Decius 00:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where you get that from - "Byzantine" implies Eastern Orthodoxy to me. I suspect that, since so many people use "Byzantium" to refer to the Empire rather than for the ancient city (as I noticed when I once fixed all the links to point to the right places), hardly anyone consciously or subconsciously links "Byzantium" to "paganism." Adam Bishop 02:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is all getting a bit silly. Decius - could you please point to a source that says that the term Byzantine is offensive because it suggests they were Pagans? If you can't, then you are conducting original research, which is not allowed in wikipedia. john k 02:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There was never a "byzantine empire". No contemporary people referred to the medievil roman empire as the "byzantine empire". It was a later invention of western european historians in the 18th century i believe, a french guy, cant remember his name. The list of roman emperors should rightly go from Augustus to Constantine XI in 1453. For the people who say it shouldnt and that it is a "completely different empire" please state at what point the direct continuation of the roman state became a "byzantine empire" and how a Emperor who was called the roman emperor by all his peers suddenly become a byzantine emperor. FInally, somebody said "the term Byzantine is the generally accepted nomenclature for the empire centred on the city of Byzantium in the same way as Roman is the accepted term for the empire centred on Rome" Does he not realise the seat of the western capital was Ravenna, NOT ROME, for almost the last century of existance of the western empire. DOes this make it a "ravennan empire", i think not. What about when Milan was the seat of the emperor before Ravenna, was that a "milanese empire". By separating the roman emperors prior to 476AD from the emperors after that, claiming they ruled a different empire, is baseless and bias history

Does anyone know if there is a wikipedia page with a complete list of Roman Emperors up to 1453AD? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.62.47.34 (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This list is ridiculous. By not going past the Justinian dynasty Wikipedia is basically claiming that the Byzantine Empire had nothing top do with the Roman Empire. Wikipedia seems to think the Roman Empire fell in 476! This should be fixed and Byzantium's place as part of the Roman Empire acknowledged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.77.6 (talk) 22:53, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The two lists should be merged. ðarkuncoll 23:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

::The fact that there is a link to the Byzantine list with the phrase "Continue to," however, is a clear implication that it is really already Page 2 of the same list. -The Mysterious El Willstro 209.183.184.155 (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I added that link as better than nothing, but I wasn't happy about it. It has become a convention to label Western Roman emperors as Roman and Eastern Roman emperors as Byzantine, but it is in no way accurate. AmateurEditor (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It appears that this discussion (all in small type) which occurred in 2005 never really came to a concensus. Another user in 2008 brought up a good question: Is there a complete list of all of the Roman emperors. Then in 2009 the question as to why this list is incomplete was brought up yet again. This page, which claims to be a list of Roman emperors is incomplete because it only contains the Western emperors. My opinion is that there ought to be a complete listing of all of the emperors of Rome if the list is to be validly called a list of Roman emperors. I understand that there is a separate list of Byzatine emperors. However, that doesn't resolve the question of why this page is called a list of Roman emperors. This list should be expanded to include all Roman Emperors from Agustus Caesar through the last Eastern Roman Emperor who reined until 1453. I can take on the project of making this complete with all emperors of the Roman Empire (Eastern & Western) in the near future. Let me know if anyone has any objections. Stylteralmaldo (talk) 03:01, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

After further thought, due to the size of this page, perhaps a better place to have an "all-inclusive" Roman Emperor list (West + East) could be the Concise list of Roman Emperors page. I'll bring it for discussion there. Stylteralmaldo (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the list follows the Eastern Roman Emperors up to Irene and then switches to Charlemagne is absurd. I quote: "However, she was not recognized by Pope Leo III, who crowned Charlemagne Roman Emperor in 800." And then it goes right down to the last Holy Roman Emperor, who was beaten by Napoleon! I do of course know how the Bishops of Rome and Constantinople played important roles in issues of succession after the Christianization of the Empire, but this is neither the Roman Catholic nor the Christian Orthodox Encyclopedia, it's Wikipedia. The fact that the Pope did not recognize an Emperor should be noted, but if the Eastern Roman Empire is going to be included in the list, it has to follow the Emperors through the Latin Empire, the three successor states, and eventually right down to Constantine the Eleventh, disregarding what this or that bishop thought. Gennadius accepted a position in the new Ottoman government of Sultan Mehmed the Second, who assumed the title of "Caesar of the Romans." Should the Sultan be counted as well? Either have a list of Roman Emperors going down to the last one to rule the Western portion, or, better yet, have a concise list of Roman Emperors going from Augustus to Constantine Palaiologus. --CHTZ (talk) 00:10, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but after Irene, it was the Western Emperors that were recognized universally. The Greek Emperor Michael I recognized Charlemagne as Emperor in 814. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.112.152 (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

As Emperor of the Franks, not of the Romans. The Eastern Roman Emperor wouldn't just say, "OK, you're the boss out West, so I might as well scamper back into my hole and just pretend that the Eastern half of the Empire has not been the whole Empire since the Roman Senate recognized the sole Imperial authority of the Constantinople court." At its core, the issue is about two quarreling bishops, and there was nothing universal about it. In the days of Charlemagne, of course, the restoration of the complete Roman Empire through the union of the slowly declining Eastern Roman Empire with the new power in Western Europe was still a political aim. But Pope and Patriarch drove East and West apart irreparably, and historians have inherited this conceit of the Eastern Empire not being the Roman Empire as a result of what the Popes cultivated: that the Emperor in Constantinople was a schismatic usurper. The Patriarchs were more than reciprocal in their hatred, and here we are. The truth is that Constantinople inherited the Imperium Romanum whole, and everyone called the people of the Eastern Empire Romans until long after Constantinople had fallen. If the Holy Roman Emperors are listed, it's ridiculous not to list the Eastern Roman Emperors. --CHTZ (talk) 03:17, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• For the unsigned commentator's benefit, I would like to add that not even Charles himself claimed to be the ruler of the Roman Empire (or, "the Empire" as he would have most likely understood it). Here are two ways he styled himself: "Karolus serenissimus augustus a Deo coronatus magnus pacificus imperator Romanum gubernans imperium qui et per misericordiam Dei rex Francorum et Langobardorum, and, in a letter to the Eastern Emperor Michael Rhangaves from 812: "Karolus, divina largiente gratia imperator et augustus, idemque rex Francorum et Langobardorum, (dilecto et honorabili fratri Michaeli glorioso imperatori et Augusto)." Notice how laboriously Charles made sure to tiptoe around the fact that he had been crowned "Roman Emperor" so as not to endanger his relationship with the Eastern Emperor, as the validation of the Augustus and Imperator titles rested on recognition by Constantinople. His strategy worked, and he was recognized as a "vasileus" by Michael. Going through the bibliography and the sources will leave you no doubts about the fact that Charlemagne did not want at any point to supplant the authority of the legitimate Roman Emperor in Constantinople.––CHTZ (talk) 23:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I would just like to chime in by suggesting that, since now we have a list of all of the emperors of Rome including all of both the Western and Eastern Emperors, this list has been made fairly redundant. Maybe we could consider merging any information not in the general list of Roman emperors on both this page and the list of Byzantine Emperors into the general list of Roman emperors and deleting the two separate lists? I Feel Tired (talk) 23:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I would heartily second that notion. Failing such a simplifying merger, it seems clear to me that the title of this particular entry needs to change, as it only covers Roman emperors through 518. To take the position, as some have on this talk page, that Emperor's thereafter are not Roman is both contrary to contemporary scholarly opinion (it is consistent with 18th and 19th century opinion, however) and takes a side in a popular controversy, which wikipedia, per force, should avoid. TheCormac (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not inconsistent with contemporary scholarship, which recognizes that while periodization is always arbitrary, and time doesn't actually come with borders, it's impractical not to focus on units that can be studied coherently. Of course there is a transitional period in the Eastern Empire. But when the capital is no longer Rome, the religion is no longer the "religion of Numa", and the "language of power" is no longer Latin, a different body of knowledge is required to make sense of the culture conventionally called "Byzantine". Those of us who trained as classicists, who studied ancient Greek and Latin and the texts and material culture of classical antiquity, are not equipped to make sense of Constantinople in 1200, as is true vice versa for medievalists. Ths same scholars who write about the reign of Augustus or Marcus Aurelius do not in fact write about the Komnenos dynasty. Why? Because they require such a different knowledge base. The culture of Imperial Rome under Trajan differs so dramatically from that of the medieval Byzantine court that it simply makes no sense to present and study them together. Annalistic succession and titular claims are extremely limited ways to approach these complex civilizations. Look at the Ara Pacis and look at the mosaics at Hagia Sophia: how on earth can these be said to be products of the same cultural milieu? Cynwolfe (talk) 16:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

But legally it was still the Roman Empire, and it's rulers continued unbroken from the same line of Roman Emperors. Even if massive changes did occur in the nearly 2 millenniums of the existence of the Roman State, that doesn't mean that it's not still the same entity. I Feel Tired (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

General List of Roman Emperors

What happened to the page "General List of Roman Emperors?" It was a useful page, it provided a convenient list of all the Emperors of both Eastern and Western Rome and let the reader see a clear chronology. Now the link just redirects here. I Feel Tired (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

"Byzantine" emperors should be listed as Roman emperors

- Byzantine Empire's native name was the Roman Empire - Odoacer sent crown of Western Roman Emperor to Eastern Roman Emperor - They used regnal numbers of the Roman Empire - There is no evidence that it fall before 1204, so there is no foundation of the Byzantine Empire - Abandoning Latin to Greek doesn't effect the title - The Eastern emperor was considered the senior emperor - Professors agree — Preceding unsigned comment added by Locavag (talk • contribs) 23:36, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The proper place to list Eastern emperors is List of Byzantine emperors. All the data you wanted to place here is already posted there. I absolutely see no reason to duplicate material, not to mention merging this article with List of Byzantine emperors. If we do that, we can also merge Holy Roman Emperor here, and that would be truly ridiculous... Also, this article explain why it list Eastern emperors only up to the 7th century. By the way, even your timeline shows emperors only up to that period. I'm letting other users to say what they think on this issue. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 23:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

You mean this: "The listing of the Eastern Emperors in this article ends at the start of the 7th century with Maurice, last of the Justinian dynasty, whose reign concludes the final era of Late Antiquity." That's idiotic, period is the reason? So you think there should be different title for every period? So now list of popes goes 33 A.D to present, and that includes Classical antiquity, Middle Ages, Early modern period and Long nineteenth century, so with that we you think we should make four different list of popes and give everyone ahistorical names. Also from the your link, I gathered this: "All Byzantine emperors regarded themselves as "Roman Emperors," the term "Byzantine" being coined by Western historiography in the 16th century. The use of the title "Roman Emperor" became contested after the Papal coronation of the Frankish Charlemagne as "Holy Roman Emperor" (25 December 800 CE), done partly in response to the Byzantine coronation of Empress Irene, whose claim, as a woman, was not recognized by Pope Leo III." I didn't find part that "explain why it list Eastern emperors only up to the 7th century." What I quoted earlier would explain list would be only to 800 A.D, but it isn't and about the Holy Roman Emperors… For starters Pope Leo III didn't crown Charlemagne as "the Holy Roman Emperor", he crowned him as "Emperor of the Romans", title "Holy Roman Emperor" that was granted to Otto I was different, both of these titles are different from title "Roman Emperor" that Emperor in Constantinople called him/herself. So just to bear titles and their meaning: Byzantine Emperor - Title made up 19th century historian to portray late period of the Roman Emperors. Never created/claimed by anyone. Emperor of the Greeks - Used by Western Christian in later centuries from Roman Emperors. Never created/claimed by anyone. Holy Roman Emperor - De jure title granted by Pope John XII to King of Germany Otto I in 962 A.D to replace Emperor of the Romans, and obtain certain borders of the empire. Roman Emperor - Title created by Augustus who became de facto emperor as a result of the 'first settlement' between himself and the Roman Senate in 27 B.C it was held by over one hundred and fifty emperors between years 27 B.C and 1453 A.D, title was shared with multiple emperors during Tetrarchy and 395-476 A.D. So you think still think "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire." Are as legit as "Byzantine Emperors". For starters title of Roman Emperor was never destroyed, when Odoacer ended Western Roman Empire (who junior empire btw), Eastern half was only thing left and was as legit as it was during 27 B.C Than we're getting to what Pope did, for starters Pope's title was equal to King's and king doesn't have authority to crown kings to emperors, but this isn't even a debate, it's a fact and you're just refusing to admit it even if all the evidence proofs you otherwise, just thinks about it if university professors agree that it's true how can you disagree? Title that was never created, never existed. If you really want to make justice for term "Byzantine" I suggest following: List of post 7th emperors to 1453 is added below section Eastern Roman Emperors and called Byzantine Emperors, List of Byzantine Emperors is deleted. About the timeline, how're you even referencing it against me? I made it from 27 B.C to 602 A.D, to make it match with current article, than I decided to correct the list, so article had Roman emperors from 27 B.C to 1453 A.D and timeline of Roman Emperors from 27 B.C to 602 A.D, so it was bit of out date, but it still served purpose, so when you undo it back to 27 B.C to 602 A.D you didn't have any reason to take the timeline that is accurate with 27 B.C to 602 A.D out, so what's your excuse for it? And I've expanded it from 602 A.D to 1453 A.D.Locavag (talk) 22:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This article list emperors from the founding of the Empire, up to Maurice, because his reign is considered the end of Late Antiquity. That is not "idiotic", but correct - if we use your logic, we need to merge Byzantine Empire with Roman Empire, which is totally ridiculous to even mention. In the first centuries of its existence, Byzantine Empire followed Roman customs, etc but in the later centuries and at its end it was clearly something much different than the original Roman Empire. Not to mention Russian emperors, who also considered themselves as "heirs of the Roman Empire" (the "Third Rome" concept), and even Ottoman sultans (by virtue of their conquest of Constantinople). The current version is also practical - your preferred list is extremely large, and very hard to navigate... I'm letting other users, with much more knowledge on the matter than myself, to decide whether we need separate lists for Roman and Byzantine emperors. I'm convinced we do. As for your timeline, I removed it with the rest of your edits and I'm ready to put back timeline from 27 B.C to 602 A.D. although I don't see why that timeline is relevant (article looked good so far without it). I don't think we need it. --Sundostund (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It is absurd to separate into two lists the rulers of a single, continuous state. The state evolved, certainly, but so do all states. To relegate a millennium of fully legitimate Roman Emperors to a different page is simply perpetuating the biases of early modern Europe. The Holy Roman, Ottoman and Russian Empires are all red herrings. Whatever their pretensions might have been, they were different states. ðarkuncoll 23:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Historians separate Rome and Byzantium for the good reason that tackling them as if they were one thing is too complicated. It's not reader friendly and it's not condusive to discussion. While it might make sense in terms of 'truth' to put the two lists together, it's not really going to improve anything. We're just gonna end up with a really big list of names that stretch two distinct time periods. It's simpler for readers and editors to keep them separate. On the other hand, a list of people who've held the title Emperor of Rome/the Romans(?), might be useful but that would include a lot of people.Lord0fHats (talk) 15:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The trouble is, historians can never decide exactly where to separate the two lists, for the very good reason that there is no actual break. Here's a question: was Britain ever part of the Byzantine Empire? It was if you start the list with Constantine, which just shows up the absurdity of the situation. As has been pointed out already, we don't separate the list of Popes into two or more, just because they run over two or more distinct time periods, e.g. Antiquity and the Middle Ages. And the Popes are an even bigger list. ðarkuncoll 16:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the list should not be expanded to include everyone who ever called themselves Roman Emperor. That would result in an unfocused and sprawling article. For instance, the rulers of the Romanian Empire called themselves Roman Emperor but were entirely unconnected with either the Western or Eastern empire both culturally and genealogically. Personally, I would include on the list only those who were actually emperor of Rome (that is, I would truncate at Romulus Augustulus) but the usual way of settling this kind of issue on Wikipedia is to look at what reliable sources do. Here is what I got from book sources on gbooks,

Title	Publication date	Begins	Ends	Range
From Rome to Byzantium	1998	Augustus	Anastasius I	31 BC–518
Who's who in the Roman World	2002	Augustus	Jovian	27 BC–364
Encyclopedia of Roman Empire	2008	Augustus	Zeno	27 BC–491
A Pocket Dictionary of Roman Emperors	2006	Augustus	Romulus Augustulus	27 BC–476
A History of the Roman Emperors	1825	Augustus	Constantine XI	28 BC–1453

I am not putting forward any of these as being the most authoritative. They are simply those books which allow preview and include a list of "Roman Emperors". I offer it here as data for discussion. SpinningSpark 05:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

This just shows that no one can decide where to make the completely arbitrary break. Furthermore, when the two lists are presented separately, there is always an overlap, since lists of "Byzantine" Emperors often start with Constantine. We should also note that the List of Roman consuls makes no such break. ðarkuncoll 16:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, at the very least there ought to be a note at the end of the list about the arbitrariness of the end of the list, although I actually would support including all of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine emperors there. A 2011 book by James J. O'Donnell, a professor at Georgetown University, directs readers[1] to the following website (hosted by Loyola University Chicago) for a full list of Roman Emperors (up to 1453): The Imperial Index: The Rulers of the Roman Empire From Augustus to Constantine XI Palaeologus. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

We might have a better/simpler/more convenient/more easily defined split if we say "After Diocletian, only the Western Emperors are listed here". Granted, I'd prefer that we include everyone until Constantine the Last, but if we don't include all those who were βασιλεύς καὶ αὐτοκράτωρ Ῥωμαίων, we'd probably do best to cut it off as the Empire is split. Should we make such a decision, we'll have no possible dispute over when to stop including people, since pretty much nobody disagrees on who was Western Emperor or who was Eastern Emperor at a given time. Nyttend (talk) 04:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• If our articles are split into Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire, it follows that the list of emperors should be divided in the same way. I oppose this proposal. AGK [•] 15:49, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia also has articles on the Principate and the Dominate, two different phases in the history of the empire, but the list of emperors is not split to take account of this, and nor should it be. The existence of a series of articles simply allows for a more detailed account. ðarkuncoll 23:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

AGK, we have an article on the Western Roman Empire as well, but it doesn't mean that we should exclude those emperors from this list for that reason (although the suggestion by Nyttend above about cutting off this list when the empire is split under Diocletian is interesting). AmateurEditor (talk) 01:53, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Splitting the list at Diocletian would create a real mess. What do we do with the three sons of Constantine, for example, who divided the empire between them into three parts? In actual fact, in Roman law the state was never divided. One of the emperors - usually, but not always, the one residing in Constantinople - was the senior emperor, and only he had the power to issue legislation, and did so for the whole empire, not just the part under his direct administration. ðarkuncoll 12:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I know it's a little late, but I agree with Locavag and TharkunColl. Any distinction drawn between "Byzantine" and "Roman" is completely artificial and if we were draw distinctions between the rulers of what were legally one state, we should also separate the Roman into separate articles for the Dominate and Principate, and Byzantium into separate articles for pre and post Fourth Crusade. You know, there used to be a really nice article titles "General List of Roman Emperors," that solved a lot of these issues. Whatever happened to that article? Either way, I support this proposal.I Feel Tired (talk) 17:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think it should be noted that the equivalent page for Roman Empresses also provides a complete list of Byzantine Empresses [2]. If we do not list Byzantine Emperors together with Roman Emperors, why list their wives together? For the record, I think that this page should include a complete list of Byzantine rulers. JCKaine (talk) 09:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you, so I decided to be bold and make the change. I Feel Tired (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

31 The Majority of Europe

"The empire was developed as the Roman Republic invaded and occupied the majority of Europe."

I didn't know the Europe were numbered. How many were they?

DavidLJ (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably in square Roman miles, or, today, in square kilometers. The empire was tri-continental, as the continents are usually defined, in that it also included much of northern Africa and parts of western Asia. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

However, the majority of Europe (to the Urals) was never part of the empire - no Scandanavia, Germany, or any part of Europe north/east of the Danube (with a couple of small exceptions.)50.111.46.18 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Saloninus as legitimate emperor

Is there any evidence that Saloninus was in 260 after his usurpation officially accepted as Augustus by the Roman Senate and thus became legitimate emperor ? During the Principate, the recognition by the Senate was a condition for becoming legitimate emperor bearing the title Augustus. Even also in the situation when a man was natural son of ruling legitimate emperor (in this case Gallienus) and himself had already held title Caesar. If no such evidence exists, we should remove Saloninus from this list of legitimate emperors such as e.g. Pescennius Niger or Clodius Albinus, who are for this very reason not placed in this list.Lucullus19 (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Woman emperors

Thanks to anonymous edits on 24 May 2015‎ (by 142.129.141.105) and 28 July 2015‎ (by 96.237.232.169), the article now states that Roman emperors includes "men and, very rarely, women". With respect to women, I'm afraid this is just untrue, at least in the classical period. If we're thinking of Zenobia, she actually proves the opposite as she was nominally her son's regent (and only in a breakaway eastern section). Are we calling Elagabalus a trans-woman? I don't think that would withstand scrutiny either. If we're thinking of Byzantine empresses regnant, like Irene and Theodora, well, fair enough, but we probably should put a disclaimer on that, since (rightly or wrongly) many historians and lay people don't think of Byzantine (= mediaeval) as Roman (= ancient). Better still, why not do away with the gendered language? I'll see what I can do in that regard. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:22, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Claudius Gothicus or Aurelian?

I think it would be helpful to at least alert readers to the possibility that the bronze bust  currently listed in the table next to Claudius Gothicus may actually depict Aurelian. It's one of six bronze busts found beneath the Capitoline temple in Brescia, *two* of which have been generally identified as Claudius II based on what we know of his appearance from coins. The identification has been disputed, though, because of how similarly the two emperors are depicted on coins, how different the two busts are, and because of the apparent illogic of preserving two busts of Claudius beneath the temple and not one of Aurelian (all the other busts evidently depict different emperors - no doubles). There's a ton of bust confusion on the internet, as I'm sure many of you have noticed, and I thought it'd be a good idea to attempt to clear this one small dispute up. Any thoughts?

PlautusCincinnatus (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Jovian

In cause of death for Jovian it states that he died of natural causes, suffocation on fumes. There seems to be a general consensus among both Late Roman Sources (Ammianus Marcellinus ) and modern historians (David Potter , among others)that this is false and that his death was almost certainly either assasination or suicide in the aftermath of the Persian Campaign and its related peace. Thoughts? Zachary Hawson (talk) 21:21, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

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Moving the date ranges to the beginning of the dynasty subsection headers

I would like to move the year ranges in the dynasty subsection headers back to the beginning of the headers (for example, "Leonid dynasty (457–518)" would again become "(457–518) Leonid dynasty"), but because it was reverted I want to get some feedback here first. Putting the years first was enacted with this edit on December 28, 2016 and the years were moved to the end of the headers with this edit on December 10, 2017. I think it is better to have the years first for the following reasons:

• the list is arranged chronologically and with the years put first they will become aligned visually in the table of contents, which makes it easier to scan the table of contents for a year you are interested in, or see any year gaps or overlaps,
• it makes this page consistent with List of Roman and Byzantine Empresses,
• it serves to visually unify the sections "The Principate", "The Dominate", and "Eastern/Byzantine emperors" in the table of contents to convey the idea of continuity between them, rather than the sharp breaks implied by having the separate sections.

AmateurEditor (talk) 17:50, 30 September 2018 (UTC) I'll give this a few more days. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Done. AmateurEditor (talk) 16:25, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Era style

Apologies for jumping the gun with this edit. As @AmateurEditor observes, this is a matter that should be discussed here first. I prefer the Common Era style (BCE/CE) to the BC/AD style, but would not argue against the consensus. Whichever is more common now among current classical scholarship is probably better. There are other editors here who can attest better than me to which is used more. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:54, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@Iveagh Gardens: you've been doing great work standardizing the table formatting and thank you so much for that. I think the BC/AD style for dates is most appropriate for this article for historical reasons, but I will also support whatever consensus is arrived at here. Please note that the BC/AD style is the first style used by a major contributor to the article (it was used in the first edit to the article back in 2001), so it should be the default style absent a new consensus, per MOS:NUM ("Where this manual provides options, consistency should be maintained within an article unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that editors should not change an article from one guideline-defined style to another without a substantial reason unrelated to mere choice of style, and that revert-warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If discussion cannot determine which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor."). AmateurEditor (talk) 20:10, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@AmateurEditor: Thanks for the compliments! Well, if no one else picks up on this, I'm quite happy to let this one lie. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 21:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Addition of junior co-emperors in the Byzantine period

Is there any case for adding a junior co-Augustus who did not rule in their own right, using the WITH format? I'm thinking of the likes of Theodosius (son of Maurice), who could be listed in the same cell as Maurice (emperor), along the precedent of Herennius Etruscus listed in the cell with Decius (as well as many other listed in this way during the classical period)? —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Just for the sake of consistency thoughout the list I would be for this, if junior emperors are listed before 476 they should also be listed afterwards. The only thing I could think of that would speak against this is that the entries for some emperors might become a bit cluttered; both Romanos I and Michael VII had three co-emperors each. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:44, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree we should be consistent, but we have a variety of options. List of Presidents of the United States uses a separate column to list Vice Presidents in the same row as the Presidents they served under and includes multiple Vice Presidents in the same row (see the row for Thomas Jefferson, for example). That could work here. Another option would be to differentiate the junior emperors with a different color. The Finnish version of this article does this to distinguish ruling emperors, usurpers, and Caesars. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:45, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

The difficulty with a separate column is that for most of the period pre-286, there were very few junior Emperors or co-Emperors, so that there would be empty cells. I wouldn't particularly favour giving a distinct row to co-Emperors, as their time holding the title is very much linked to that of their father, as it was in most of the instances where they did not succeed. But I'm open to all options here. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 10:57, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

For comparison's sake, here is how the entry for Romanos I and his co-emperors would look with 1) the current format used for the classical emperors (maybe it isn't too cluttered?);

Portrait	Name	Birth	Succession	Reign	Time in office	Death
	Romanos I Lekapenos (Ῥωμανὸς Αʹ Λεκαπηνός) with Christopher Lekapenos (Χριστόφορος Λακαπηνός) and Stephen Lekapenos (Στέφανος Λακαπηνός) and Constantine Lekapenos (Κωνσταντίνος Λακαπηνός)	c. 870, Lakape	Regent for the young Constantine VII, crowned himself senior emperor during Constantine's minority.	17 December 920 – 16 December 944	24 years	15 June 948 (age 77-78) In a monastery as a monk after having been overthrown

and 2) with separate and distincly colored rows for his co-emperors (on a side-note it does appear like Stephen Lekapenos reigned for a few weeks as senior emperor before being overthrown, should he be added in an entry of his own?);

Portrait	Name	Birth	Succession	Reign	Time in office	Death
	Romanos I Lekapenos (Ῥωμανὸς Αʹ Λεκαπηνός)	c. 870, Lakape	Regent for the young Constantine VII, crowned himself senior emperor during Constantine's minority.	17 December 920 – 16 December 944	24 years	15 June 948 (age 77-78) In a monastery as a monk after having been overthrown
	Christopher Lekapenos (Χριστόφορος Λακαπηνός)	?	Son of Romanos I, co-emperor	20 May 921 – August 931	10 years	August 931
	Stephen Lekapenos (Στέφανος Λακαπηνός)	?	Son of Romanos I, co-emperor, briefly full emperor (for a few weeks) before being overthrown by Constantine VII	924–945	21 years	Easter 963, Lesbos Died in exile as a monk after having been overthrown by Constantine VII
	Constantine Lekapenos (Κωνσταντίνος Λακαπηνός)	?	Son of Romanos I, co-emperor	924–945	21 years	946-948, Samothrace Killed attempting to escape exile and reclaim imperial power

One downside of doing the method with new rows is that a lot of the co-emperors are obscure figures with not much known and many of them completely lack images whatsoever to use (though this is not the case for the sons of Romanos) and that we'd need to apply this format to the classical emperors as well. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:43, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for laying out the options clearly @Ichthyovenator. I much prefer the former option. Including them reflect the formality that they were named as Augustus, but including them within the reigns of their father (as it usually was), reflects the de facto reality that they did not rule in their own right. It also reflects most lists used, where their reign is dated from the death of their predecessor in the case of those who did rule in their own right.

If we do adopt this model, is there a slight anomaly in how Caracalla and Geta are dated. Should we then date them from the death of Septimius Severus in February 211, but note in the Succession box that they had been named as co-Augustus by their father at earlier dates? —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I prefer option 1 as well. As for the anomaly with Geta and Caracalla, I also noticed a similar anomaly with Honorius and Arcadius, dated beginning with 393 and 383 respectively (rather than 395, the death of their father and senior emperor). Emperors should probably be dated beginning with them becoming senior emperor (where applicable), not since they were proclaimed as Augustus, since that is how most lists do it (academic or otherwise), but it would also be wortwhile to include information on how long they were co-emperors prior to becoming senior emperors (seeing as this was often very important for assuming the "throne"). I did add in "co-emperor since..." under "succession" in a number of the Byzantine emperors when I was standardizing the format for the last few dynasties and something like that could be applied to the earlier emperors as well.

Another question; in many cases co-emperors died before their fathers, or long after them in exile, during Byzantine times (often a big reason for them not succeeding to rule in their own right), so their "reigns" do not necessarily completely overlap (in the case of Stephen Lekapenos he actually was senior emperor for a few weeks after overthrowing his father but he is for some reason considered just a co-emperor?). Should this be reflected under "reign", "succession" or "death"? I saw that the entry for Licinius puts all co-emperor information under "succession" whilst the entry for Magnus Maximus has the information on his co-emperor Victor's death in the normal "death". Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't the dates of these various co-emperorships be given (where known), perhaps in reduced size font? TharkunColl (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

So (using Romanos I as an example again, now with co-emperor information added) something like this?

Portrait	Name	Birth	Succession	Reign	Time in office	Death
	Romanos I Lekapenos (Ῥωμανὸς Αʹ Λεκαπηνός) with Christopher Lekapenos (Χριστόφορος Λακαπηνός) and Stephen Lekapenos (Στέφανος Λακαπηνός) and Constantine Lekapenos (Κωνσταντίνος Λακαπηνός)	c. 870, Lakape	Regent for the young Constantine VII, crowned himself senior emperor during Constantine VII's minority. Proclaimed his three sons Christopher, Stephen and Constantine as co-emperors. Was overthrown by Stephen in 944, who briefly ruled as senior emperor (for a few weeks) until he himself was overthrown by Constantine VII.	17 December 920 – 16 December 944 20 May 921 – August 931 (Christopher) 924–945 (Stephen & Constantine)	24 years 10 years (Christopher) 21 years (Stephen & Constantine)	15 June 948 (age 77-78) In a monastery as a monk after having been overthrown. Christopher died in August of 931. Both Stephen and Constantine died in exile as monks; Stephen on Easter 963 on Lesbos and Constantine in 946-948 on Samothrace trying to escape exile and reclaim imperial power

Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:10, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as long as it's clear to whom the dates belong. TharkunColl (talk) 23:48, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

I went ahead and added all the Byzantine co-emperors, this format should be okay and the content added could easily be modified if there was something I missed or got wrong. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:17, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Adding a column with small map images?

Portrait	Name	Birth	Succession	Reign	Time in office	Death	Territory
	Augustus IMPERATOR CAESAR DIVI FILIVS AVGVSTVS	September 23, 63 BC, Rome, Italia	Great-nephew and adopted son of Julius Caesar; became de facto emperor as a result of the 'first settlement' between himself and the Roman Senate.	January 16, 27 BC – August 19, 14 AD	40 years, 7 months and 3 days	August 19, 14 AD (aged 75) Natural causes
	Tiberius TIBERIVS CAESAR DIVI AVGVSTI FILIVS AVGVSTVS	November 16, 42 BC, Rome, Italia	Natural son of Livia Drusilla, Augustus' third wife, by a previous marriage; stepbrother and third husband of Julia the Elder, daughter of Augustus; adopted by Augustus as his son and heir.	September 18, 14 AD – March 16, 37 AD	22 years, 5 months and 27 days	March 16, 37 AD (aged 77) Probably natural causes, possibly assassinated by Caligula or praetorian prefect Naevius Sutorius Macro

Would it be possible to add a column on the right side with small images showing the territorial extent of the empire associated with the emperor, like this example? AmateurEditor (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I like the idea, but considering that we then need territorial maps for each of the ~200 rulers (which isn't the case right now, particularly in the "byzantine" period) I don't think it's feasible at the moment. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Augusti, augustae, and Co-emperors in earlier imperial period.

The lead of the article does not give a word to the title augustus but makes vague reference to "the full imperial title". It also makes reference to the reforms of Diocletian, but not a word (or link) on the Tetrarchy. As I understand it, "the full imperial title" ought to be augustus; some mention of caesar ought to be clarified early as well. There are many instances of co-emperorship and the granting of caesar and other junior imperial titles, from the early empire on, including lots of imperial heirs that predeceased their seniors. Some discussion of this in the lead would not go amiss.

The lead should probably also make reference to the female counterpart of the emperors, the augustae, about whom not a word in the introduction (and there could be multiple augustae). Obviously, as Rome's religio-legal paterfamilias, an emperor needed a materfamilias and chief of the Roman matronae.

I know it's complicated, but I also think the "co-emperor with ..." comments in the comments section are obscured by the processional, linear format which makes it look as though Geta came after Caracalla, which is a bit silly since Geta was only an emperor before and during Caracalla's reign, and so on. I propose the format used in the Byzantine period tables be moved to the earlier periods as well; there's no indication, for instance, that Constantius III was co-emperor with Honorius, Valentian III was made caesar by Arcadius, Constantine was co-emperor with Crispus and then his other sons, Maximin Daia (and the other Tetrarchs) was never sole emperor as rather implied &c., &c. GPinkerton (talk) 13:24, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'd argue that "the full imperial title" doesn't have to mean augustus (are we forgetting basileus?). Making clearer what the full imperial title is would be good, I agree. I've been working on an article on Roman imperial titles for a while but progress has been slow since I've been busy elsewhere but the point is that the full imperial title changed throughout the centuries. For Augustus himself the imperial title would probably be princeps right? In the really early empire germanicus nearly eclipsed augustus as the most important title of the emperors. I also agree that it is a bit confusing that Geta is listed before Caracalla (and similar cases) but this is a structural necessity and convenience. The reason they aren't grouped together like the Byzantine co-emperors is because Wikipedia has to follow what other sources says (not necessarily the actual "political truth" of the time) - both Geta and Caracalla are often counted as "full emperors" while Byzantine junior co-emperors often aren't, this is reflected in the structure of the list. As for mentioning the augustae in the introduction, consorts usually aren't brought up in the introductions of articles listing monarchs but I would not object if you decided to add it in. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:02, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

My point about augustus was really that the junior emperors/co-emperors who wore the title caesar are not included on this page, even though they were most certainly emperors and are addressed as imperator and DN in inscriptions. All the augusti are. The imperial title was always geminate in its ideal form, just as the consulship was - what's the sense of including the Byzantine Caesars when the Roman ones aren't, not even for the Tetrarchy? I'm intrigued by your argument that: this is a structural necessity and convenience. How is it convenient to exclude the holders of the junior imperial office? And:The reason they aren't grouped together like the Byzantine co-emperors is because Wikipedia has to follow what other sources says (not necessarily the actual "political truth" of the time) - both Geta and Caracalla are often counted as "full emperors" while Byzantine junior co-emperors often aren't. Often when? What sources, by whom? And: really? Even in the Tetrarchy!? I agree that excluding usurpers and so on is all very well, but excluding all the earlier caesares when the Byzantine ones are included is just bizarre. As I have tried to express, the augustae were not just consorts; mothers and daughters of emperors were sometimes so elevated, not being limited to one at a time (Constantine's mother, wife, and daughter were all augustae) and there is the question of what status the augusta Pulcheria had, being more or less the female heir and briefly regnant in her own right. What are these sources you refer to that justify the splitting of co-emperorships to present the appearance of a strict monarchy in the Principate but an imperial college in the Byzantine period? GPinkerton (talk) 22:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes and basileus is not the full imperial title for much of this list. A first century emperor would insulted with such demeaning language. Basileis ruled little provinces like Judaea or Thrace or Numidia then, kings at the beck and call of emperors. Greeks called the earlier emperors sebastos but that doesn't continue after Constantine, so Augustus and its Greek transliteration must be the "emperors" referred to in the title, since all the emperors who were mere caesares are excluded. GPinkerton (talk) 22:08, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so a couple points:

1) Can you name some examples of junior-co emperors with the title caesar but not augustus that still used imperator and DN?

2) Byzantine caesares included? Where? Byzantine junior emperors are included, yes, because they had the title basileus just like the senior emperors but caesares? Here are just some of the Byzantine caesares that are excluded from the list: Alexios Angelos Philanthropenos, Manuel Angelos Philanthropenos, Bardas, Theodore Branas (made caesar by the Latin Empire) and Nikephoros Bryennios the Younger. Byzantine junior emperors are included the same way that Roman junior emperors are (without full entries but mentioned nonetheless).

3) With "this is a structural necessity and convenience" I was referring to the situation with Geta and Caracalla and similar cases. They ruled together yes, but neither of them were "more senior" than the other - they were equals - and they are often counted as such in modern sources. The relation in power between Geta and Caracalla is not the same as say, the relation in power between Basiliscus and Marcus where one is clearly junior to the other and usually left out of modern lists of Roman emperors.

4) Because Wikipedia is not built on the truth per se, but on what reliable sources say, we have to follow other lists of Roman emperors when making ours. The emperors who get "full entries" here are the ones who are usually counted in such lists, and junior emperors mentioned together with them are office-holders with the same titles that were junior to whoever else was reigning at the time. I don't know why you interpret this as symbolizing some form of imperial college.

5) I'm well aware that women often held considerable power in the Roman (and at times the Byzantine) world but they are still ultimately consorts to the monarch at the time (with some exceptions such as Pulcheria, Irene, Zoe and the Theodoras). There is already a List of Roman and Byzantine Empresses (though it could do with a bit of an upgrade) and if you look at other lists of monarchs on Wikipedia you'll see that consorts are rarely given much of a mention in the introduction, regardless of the power they had. But as I said, if you want them to be mentioned in the lede, that's fine by me. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:49, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

The Byzantine title of Caesar was a "senior court title", but no longer used by the Emperors. It was granted to 1) second- and third-born sons, 2) politically influential relatives of the Emperor, 3) rulers of allied states, such as Bulgaria and Georgia, 4) courtiers ranking below the titles of Sebastokrator and despot, 5) prominent nobles, and 6) rulers of the Balkans, such as the princes of Vlachia, Serbia and Thessaly. Dimadick (talk) 22:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, which is why I questioned the idea that Byzantine holders of the title Caesar are included in the list. They aren't... Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

@Dimadick: Kazdan says that Caesar as a non-imperial title was only instituted after Alexios I. It was used by plenty of Byzantine emperors.

@Ichthyovenator: As I say, there were several augustae that were never imperial consorts, not least Saint Helena, and their titles were not about power so much as being the Republic's chief woman of the state (or women), which distinguishes them from the mediaeval and other queens. Notably, D.N. applied in some instances to augustae. I describe it as an imperial college because the PMBz, among many others, describes it as such, notwithstanding the explicit use of the term in Tetrachic times. Does this list need to be based on other lists? Why can't we simply use the ordinary reliable sources? The case of Geta and Caracalla especially shows that they probably need to be counted in the same row, as joint emperors (like the Byzantine co-emperors are and the Tetrarchs conspicuously aren't), since the current layout makes it look as though Geta succeeded Caracalla, which is nearly the opposite of what happened. Geta was only ever emperor with Caracalla, during Caracalla's tenure. When I spoke of the later Byzantine caesars, I was being inexact; what I mean is that the co-emperors of the Roman period - the casares - are not properly indicated, as they are in the later sections, and neither are the augusti. Leo II, for instance, was a caesar and co-emperor of Leo I. Constantine, from this list, ruled alone, rather than as the senior emperor of as many as four others or as junior emperor in an earlier set of four. The caesar Crispus does not appear at all. Constans son of Constantine III, does not appear, and neither does Basilicus, made caesar by Zeno, or Gallus, co-emperor with Constantius II and Julian. Licinius son of Licinius appears nowhere, but Maximin Daia, who never went near Rome or achieved anything like nominally uncontested control of even half the empire gets a whole row to himself as though he were sole augustus, a title he gave himself! Junior emperors referred to as D.N. include: the aforementioned Crispus and Marcus son of Basilicus, as well as Licinius II, Constans I, Valentianian III, and doubtless others. GPinkerton (talk) 23:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, Julian is known to have used dominus noster as caesar, before assuming the augustus title, as is Constantine himself, his father, &c. GPinkerton (talk) 06:20, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: Could this list do with a format upgrade which better indicates co-emperor relationships? Yes. Should those changes be what you suggest? No. "Does this list need to be based on other lists" is the fundamental flaw here - yes it needs to be. It isn't a 100 % based on other lists at the moment, which lowers its quality and violates Wikipedia principles. The Augustae (with the exceptions of the ones that actually ruled - e.g. Pulcheria, Irene, etc.) are never included in such lists in the same way as the full-on emperors. Geta and Caracalla are always included as full emperors in their own right, junior emperors such as Marcus son of Basilicus or the Byzantine junior emperors never are and those who never used the title Augustus at all (e.g. Licinius II and Crispus) are extremely rarely (if at all) included. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: I am not proposing that any more women be added to the list than are there now (and I'm not really sure why Justinian's Theodora counts). I propose that the junior emperors be added and the Tetrarchy and Constantinians especially be reformed. Can you point to some specific Wikipedia policy that demands lists like these be based specifically on other lists? I suspect this idea is spurious. I'd also like to point out that the sources cited (thinly) for this article are all of them non-specialist works, at least one of which, by the way, the Timeline of Roman Emperors, happens to include lots of women known to have issued coins! Why are we to exclude sources like the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, the Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity, the PMBz, and the PLRE? GPinkerton (talk) 14:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: I suspect a lot of what we are disagreeing on in the case of this list is actually based on me misunderstanding you and you misunderstanding me. Justinian's Theodora shouldn't be on this list, no. Neither should the earlier Ulpia Severina, these are the problems I'm talking about that arises when this list is not based on other cited lists (Wikipedia is as you know built on citing reliable sources, not on original research) - keeping rulers in this list that are left out of lists elsewhere would be going against policy. I've been slowly working on a format update which better takes into account co-regencies and clearly cites overarching lists for each period and individual information on each emperor, over at User:Ichthyovenator/List of Roman emperors. If you're interested in improving the format and content of this list, we can continue our discussion there and maybe collaborate on some points. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: What I'm saying is that none of the sources used (or cited) so far is really what qualifies as a reliable source, still less the internet lists. I would suggest that the sources I mentioned are much more reliable and authoritative that the ones hitherto cited. They have more exact dates, for example, and have been academically peer reviewed. The lists mentioned at the foot of the article are ... not. Also, another point is that the German version of this page (not so attractive a format) lists a great many more ephemeral emperors than does this page, which if nothing else makes it easier as a reference to use with Ctrl+F (note the unfortunate search mentioned by a user on this page that came looking for Crispus). It also has a lot of titles and epithets, which is interesting, if bulky.

I looked at that draft and I quite like it, although the column with co-rulers should be further over to the left, for visibility. I also think that dates ought not be rounded up to the year as they appear to be at present. We have quite specific dates for many of them, dates which would be useful on this page as a reference, especially the (if different) dates at which the men became caesar and augustus. This was and important part of the state and it ought not to be left out for the sake of conformity with other periods in the list! Otherwise the form looks good, though missing a good many co-augusti of east and west. Then there is the question of how to differentiate the western and eastern caesares; if the co-augusti are listed, should the co-caesares be paired? So, Licinius II would be paired with Crispus under both Constantine I and Licinius (at least, until their resumption of hostilities after 324), Galerius would be paired with Constantius under Diocletian (just like in their portraits!) and under Maximian Maxentius would be listed separately to the Diocletianic tetrarchs, Maximinus would be listed with Severus under Galerius, and so on. (Obviously they should retain their separate rows, but each augustus's co-rulers, junior and equal, should appear under their entry. GPinkerton (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: The sources: yes I agree that the sources cited in the current article are not good - this is one of the problems I am hoping to fix with my draft (note that each broad section - Principate, Crisis of the Third Century, Dominate and Eastern cites lists in reliable sources for which emperors to include and which to not include and that there is a new ref-column for each entry - not yet filled for most of them). Do your supplied sources include full lists of emperors? I'm aware of the German version but as you say, unattractive format and it lists usurpers and claimants (which I don't think we should). The titles are interesting but it's something I've removed completely in the draft I'm working on as they are hard to implement in a non-bulky and consistent form (as it is, this article picks and chooses which titles to represent and can't do it consistently).

The draft is of course an early work-in-progress (most of the emperors have yet to get full on entries or even by placed into tables yet); the date problem you mention is something I'm meaning to fix (each emperor should of course have the most precise dates possible). If you think emperors are missing in the draft you are more than welcome to tell me which ones. You touch on an important issue; the list doesn't just need to represent the succession of emperors in a factual manner (or at least a manner that corresponds to the sources cited) - it also needs to be readable and (hopefully) look good. That's why I think the East-West emperors should get separate entries in the list (though indicated with color or through some other method as an eastern or western ruler), that makes listing their co-emperors and caesares easier and makes the whole thing look less cluttered.

On having the co-ruler column further to the left, I don't think that's a hugely important issue. It's where it is right now since many emperors did not have any co-rulers at all and I don't think having so many empty spaces to the far left would look good. This is again part of the appearance and readability versus representation of information problem. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes the new bibliography is much better - but seems the PLRE and PMBz are missing and these are probably the most detailed sources for individuals' dates and offices (and the other prosopographies for earlier periods). The Dictionary of Late Antiquity is obviously newer and more up-to-date than the ORB but I have noticed at least one glaring error (Galla Placidia is described as Honorius's mother, rather than sister!). I'm also curious that sometimes it says: co-emperor and other times "augustus with" or "co-augustus". I think it should just be explicit what title they had; augustus or caesar (or basileus for Heraclius and after). Another suggestion would be to break the tetrarchs from the Constantinians - before and after Constantine's supremacy - and have a separate table with a separate layout for them specifically. It's a little artificial because the multiple-emperor system carried on for another century or more but the early fourth century saw so many comings and goings in parallel in a system at least notionally non-dynastic, time-limited, and geographic, different both from the system beforehand and in other ways from the Constantinian dynastic imperial college that emerged after all the other tetrarchs died off. GPinkerton (talk) 03:55, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll look at the PLRE and PMBz - still a work in progress as I said. Co-emperor/co-augustus will be rectified as well, "co-emperor" should be co-augustus or co-basileus/symbasileus (symbasileus has a connotation of being inferior to the senior emperor which is true in most cases but not all) in most places me thinks. About Constantine and the Tetrarchy, I agree that the Constantinian dynasty is a different arrangement of power than the Tetrarchy but the main problem there is that they are contemporary. Maxentius, Licinius and Maximinus Daia all become emperors after Constantine I but they are associated with the tetrarchic system. To get chronological, clean and separate Tetrarchy and Constantinian sections we'd need to either list Constantine twice or begin the separate Constantinian section with his sons (Constantine II). Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:38, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

So list Constantine twice; once as co-emperor of the tetrarchs (under their entries?) and then at the head of his own section - Diocletian could get same treatment, before and after the raising of Maximian; for comparison the article List of heads of state of Russia does list both Putin and Yeltsin twice, for different reasons: break in continuity of the constitution and non-consecutive terms. (I'm not suggesting Maximian be listed twice, though, even though he unretired.) One thing I've noticed is that it might be worthwhile putting the Born section's information in the same column as the name, perhaps with cells split horiziontally; both columns take up a lot of precious space but don't contain much data. Another thing is that colour-coding for east/west; how will Licinius's colour be decided? The name and birthdate column might look like this:

Portrait	Name		Succession and Notes	Reign	Death
	GaleriusIMPERATOR CAESAR GAIVS GALERIVS VALERIVS MAXIMIANVS AVGVSTVS (EAST)		Adopted as junior co-emperor ('Caesar') and heir by Diocletian, 1 March 293. Also son-in-law of Diocletian	May 1, 305 – May 311	311 (aged 61) Natural causes
	Born	c. 250, Felix Romuliana, Moesia Superior		6 years
	Maximinus IIIMPERATOR CAESAR CAIVS CALERIVS VALERIVS MAXIMINVS AVGVSTVS (EAST)		Nephew of Galerius, adopted as Caesar and his heir in 305; succeeded as Augustus (shared with Licinius I) in 311	May 1, 311 – July/August 313	July/August 313 (aged 42) Defeated in civil war against Licinius; probably committed suicide thereafter
	Born	November 20, c. 270, Dacia Aureliana		2 years

As an example. Obviously the co-emperor column needs to go in and much else, but the the birthdate and place I think can be relegated to a split cell. It would be interesting to have a place of death where known, in the same column. (Possibly burial place is a little too far to stretch and is probably the subject for a new article).

(I am also, on an unrelated note, fairly certain the plaster cast in the photo is from a bust that represents Diocletian or Galerius, even Licinius, more likely than it represents Maximinus Daia. Various identifications are proposed in the literature, but as far as I can ascertain, the only source that claims the bust (in Cairo) was Maximinus is the actual label on the plaster cast, (in St Petersburg) in defiance of a century of published debate. I haven't been able to find a Commons photo of the Cairo bust, or of a suitable issue of Maximinus's coins, but it's a deeply unsatisfactory portrait nonetheless and its prominence on the Maximinus II article has itself led to some very questionable medical speculation. GPinkerton (talk) 18:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Good lord, that "Maximinus" bust is used for him all over Wikipedia (in multiple language versions). Definitely a major issue if that's the case. I'm not a huge fan of listing emperors more than once. Take the case of Constantine for instance; his position relative to other major players (emperors) in the Roman world obviously changed throughout his tenure as ruler but he was still an emperor continously from 306 or 310 (depending on how you look at it) until 337; listing him twice might get people to think that there was some break in the continuity there, which there wasn't (same goes for Diocletian).

On the color coding for East/West - yes it's not a perfect system. In most cases it would work, there's really only a few emperors who went from governing one half to governing the whole or "switched" half (e.g. Licinius - though he never exercised much real power in the west). I just wanted to get away from the current (EAST) and (WEST) format, which I thought was ugly and looked cluttered - maybe there really is not good alternative to that.

Not a fan of putting the birth data in the same column as the name, but I do like some of your ideas. What do you think of this format (represented with good old Maurice)?: Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Portrait	Name	Reign	Co-ruler(s)	Succession and Notes	Life details	Ref
	Maurice IMPERATOR CAESAR FLAVIVS MAVRICIVS NOVVS TIBERIVS FIDELIS IN CHRISTO PIVS FELIX INCLITVS VICTOR AC TRIVMFATOR SEMPER AVGVSTVS	14 August 582 – 27 November 602	Theodosius (Caesar in 587, co-Augustus from 26 March 590)	Son-in-law and designated successor of Tiberius II Constantine.	Born in 539 in Arabissus, Cappadocia. Executed by Phocas in Constantinople on 27 November 602 (aged 63).
		20 years, 3 months and 13 days

Alternatively if one skips the full imperial titles and just sticks to the "name-parts" (this is how it's been done at the List of Byzantine emperors) and removes the precise length of their reigns in days/months/years (which is absent in many other lists and might clutter this one up a bit), here's a more simplified and perhaps more clean-looking version: Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Portrait	Name	Reign	Co-ruler(s)	Succession and Notes	Life details	Ref
	Maurice (Flavius Mauricius novus Tiberius)	14 August 582 – 27 November 602	Theodosius (Caesar in 587, co-Augustus from 26 March 590)	Son-in-law and designated successor of Tiberius II Constantine.	Born in 539 in Arabissus, Cappadocia. Executed by Phocas in Constantinople on 27 November 602 (aged 63).

@Ichthyovenator: This is much better than what I laid out and still gets rid of the extra columns! I think the length of reign could be useful, and with more co-emperors and details listed under other entries I think there will be space to fill in that column without it. The Roman names should be in small caps!, but I agree that the full styling isn't necessary (a different page perhaps), just the actual names, especially as titles would have changed over the lifetime and varied regionally. Interestingly, Justinian II is listed twice, but since it's non-consecutive it's obvious that there was a break in continuity, while the first century's worth of emperors after Constantine are listed on List of Byzantine emperors and on this page. I think the baseline minimum level of confusion is just the price we pay for periodization. And yes, that bust in Cairo is definitely not Maximinus, (in my view) he ruled too briefly to have had such things made and instaled in Egypt, and in any case all the tetrarchic portraits are deliberately homogenized. See Last Statues of Antiquity. According to the most recent study, it was almost certainly commissioned by Diocletian, who visited Egypt at least twice. Why no Wikipedia image exists of the bust itself I don't know ... Looking closer at the other portraits, it would seem that the coin used for Licinius not only depicts him with Licinius II, but also describes the latter, a caesar, as dominus noster - in case you wanted a definite example. GPinkerton (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: Great! I might tinker with it a bit more (yes, will make Roman names be in small caps and leave the length of reigns in). Yeah, cases like Justinian II and John V Palaiologos are fine to list several times I think (precisely because they are non-consecutive and there is a clear break in continuity). About minimum level of confusion, yeah it's a sad downside of trying to represent chaotic periods such as the collapse of the Tetrarchy in clean-looking lists. I suppose we could represent Constantine I twice, once as a western emperor during the Tetrarchy until 324 and then as sole emperor and the first entry under the Constantinian dynasty. Updating the format of the list and adding in references for everything is going to be a time-consuming task and I'll also be kept busy by other projects (on Wikipedia and elsewhere) at the same time, but I can notify you on your talk page once I've finished some sections in the draft (with the newer format above) if you'd like to take a look then.

On Licinius II; huh! I thought dominus noster would be one of those full emperor-only titles (it means "our lord" after all!) but yes, looks like you were right. I'll still not give Licinius II a full entry of his own of course as I'm going to do my best to follow the lists of emperors cited in the draft as to who to include and who to relegate to the co-ruler column or not include at all but it is interesting to think about - the lines between senior Augustus, junior Augustus and Caesar may not have been so clear, then. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

This coin [[3]] of Licinius II has D N VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C: dominus noster Valerius Licinianus Licinius nobilissimus caesar. This one [[4]], of Crispus, also has dominus noster Crispus nobilissimus caesar - note the imperial group on the reverse. It's more often that the title appears in combination with an augustus, so the letters DD NN mean domini nostri - "our masters". (Master I prefer to lord, since dominus is a slave's owner and "lord" has mediaeval connotations that don't really fit.) I know of epigraphic examples of D N or DD NN for all the caesares I mentioned above. This thing [[5]], with three augusti, has the especially fun legend DDD NNN AAAUUUGGG: Domini nostrorum, x3 augusti, though one (Theodosius the younger) is clearly of lower rank, more like a caesar. A collegiate office, as I say. And yes, I would say Constantine-Crispus-Licinius-Licinius is the last tetrarchy, ending in the early 320s! After Licinius, a new table. Let me know how you get on! GPinkerton (talk) 06:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Should the Byzantine emperors be included?

So I am aware that this issue has been raised before (at the latest in 2015 it seems) but I actually have a reason for bringing it up again. I've been working on-and-off on an new version of this list for a while now, with some help from GPinkerton, with the main concern of resolving one of the biggest issues which kept this article from becoming a featured list in 2008: a critical lack of references. What has become immediately apparent from working with this is that with proper references included, the article size will skyrocket if the Byzantine emperors remain included. Wikipedia:Article size states that articles above 100 kB are generally to be divided and with proper references my version of the list is already above 80 kB (and that is with the vast majority of the entires only being placeholders). This article in its current state is already slightly above 100 kB and that's with barely any references at all.

Now, I'm an enormous Byzantinophile. I will defend the Byzantines as true Romans until the day I die, but if dividing the list (as Wikipedia:Article size seems to recommend if such a thing is possible) is a solution in this case then the most clear-cut way of adding in citations (which should be in this list regardless of if making it a featured list is the goal, this is Wikipedia and things should be referenced) while keeping the size of the list at a reasonable level would be to omit the Byzantine emperors in the same way that virtually all (if not actually all?) other language-versions of Wikipedia do. We could potentially even resurrect the Concise list of Roman emperors or General list of Roman emperors which appears to have been a simpler version going from Augustus to Constantine XI for the full experience. I also think that there is an argument to be made that published lists of Roman emperors (see below) which go all the way to Constantine XI are decidedly in the minority, with most lists ending at some point in the 4th–7th centuries.

Books

Title	Publication date	Begins	Ends	Range
Who's who in the Roman World	2002	Augustus	Jovian	27 BC–364
A Pocket Dictionary of Roman Emperors	2006	Augustus	Romulus Augustulus	27 BC–476
The Emperors of Rome	2016	Augustus	Romulus Augustulus	29 BC–476
Encyclopedia of Roman Empire	2008	Augustus	Zeno	27 BC–491
From Rome to Byzantium	1998	Augustus	Anastasius I	31 BC–518
The Imperial Families of Ancient Rome	2019	Julius Caesar	Maurice (and Theodosius)	49 BC–602
A History of the Roman Emperors	1825	Augustus	Constantine XI	28 BC–1453

Websites

Site	Begins	Ends	Range
Ancient History Encyclopedia	Augustus	Constantine I	27 BC–337
Encyclopaedia Britannica	Augustus	Zeno	31 BC–491
Metropolitan Museum of Art	Augustus	Anastasius I	27 BC–518
ostia-antica.org	Augustus	Maurice	27 BC–602
Livius	Julius Caesar	Constans II	48 BC–668
De Imperatorobus Romanis	Augustus	Constantine XI	31 BC–1453

Keep in mind that this is not me denying the "Romanness" of the Byzantines or the continuity between Rome and Constantinople; in the best of all worlds the term "Byzantine" would not even exist and the medieval rulers would be unequivocally recognized as Roman emperors. My concerns are 1) article size in case this list is improved with sources and clarifications as well as 2) most other published lists of emperors not going all the way to Constantine XI.

There is also the obvious problem of where to end the list if it is decided that the later Byzantines not be included; the most common options appear to be Zeno, Anastasius I or Maurice. If my concerns are unfounded I'd be more than happy to just continue working on a new list going all the way to Constantine XI but I do believe it would be good to have an updated set of opinions on this, preferably with arguments based on what reliable sources say rather than on personal opinions (as it appears to have been last time in 2015). Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: Don't worry about the article size, and keep all the emperors in one place. Wikipedia is meant to be "vast and complete", and it would hardly be as complete or as vast if it lacked a full list of all the emperors. This article is a list and the article size guidance specifically excludes "lists, tables and summaries", which is most of what this page contains. Meanwhile, Byzantine Empire is 200,000+ and we still don't have an article devoted to the Middle Byzantine period (Heraclius–1204) or the Late Byzantine period (1204–1453), or even an Eastern Roman Empire page to cover the period detailed by our Western Roman Empire page. GPinkerton (talk) 19:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: Fundamentally, this is my angle too; any split (even if if it is one of the common ones) will seem arbitrary, there is for instance no fundamental difference between the position of Maurice and Phocas. I do however think it will be useful to get some more opinions on this. I won't have the time do any more huge work on Wikipedia for most of the remainder of this month anyway (but then the emperor list will be top priority) so waiting and seeing how others tackle the concern on Wikipedia diverting from other published sources should be just fine. Good point on article size, I've struck that one out above. Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I sympathize with the argument that the Byzantine Empire was the literal continuation of the Roman Empire. But history demands pragmatic solutions, and splitting the list doesn't equal some sort of official conclusion that the Byzantines weren't Roman—just a recognition of the fact that people usually use "Roman" to refer to the period through the late fifth century, and Byzantine afterward. I think we should split the list into "Roman" and "Byzantine" articles simply because readers are likely to be looking for one or the other, but not both of them stuck together. Precisely how to divide it, and whether to have a single dividing line, or perhaps allow some overlap between the lists, is a complex decision. But I think that ending the Roman list with Constantine the Great or Jovian is simply absurd.

At a minimum I think that the "Roman" list needs to include all of the Theodosian dynasty, even those who ruled in the East. I think the most intuitive and practical place to divide the lists is here, assigning the Leonids to the "Byzantine" list. The later emperors of that dynasty weren't really contemporary with the Western emperors, and they seem to have had, at best, sort of a limited, nominal influence over events in the West. An advantage of including the Theodosians and excluding the Leonids, is that you can end the list with Romulus Augustus, who has a symbolic importance as the last emperor of the West.

As an alternative, I might continue through the Justinian dynasty, ending with Maurice, because, as many scholars have noted, the history of the Western empire didn't really end with the deposition of Romulus Augustus—there's no sharp dividing line, but the fact that consuls continued to be appointed, and the Gothic kings still sought to obtain the acknowledgement of the Eastern emperors to support their rule, and that Justinian briefly reconquered Italy, there's a degree of historical continuity within the Roman world through this period—but by the Heraclian period that was gone. So as a secondary choice, I would include the Leonids and Justinians in both lists. I would not consider stopping the "Roman" list with Anastasius, who is neither contemporary with the Western emperors nor as well known as Romulus Augustus and Justinian.

Now, just to raise another issue, I think I would get rid of the faux-Latin capitals in the second column, and use normal English orthography for the Roman names, without boldface—the boldface is redundant, since the most common form of the name in English is already put above the full name. But given the choice between "Flavius Claudius Julianus" and "FLAVIVS CLAVDIVS IVLIANVS", I'd use the form that English speakers would recognize, and leave the latter for monumental inscriptions. P Aculeius (talk) 00:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator:, thanks for your work on this. I don't think the list should be split. WP:SIZERULE says "These rules of thumb apply only to readable prose and not to wiki markup size (as found on history lists or other means), and each kB can be equated to 1,000 characters." While the total size shown on the article history page is about 100 kB, the readable prose is only about 10 kB and excludes references (per DYK check, this list has a 9865 characters (1602 words) "readable prose size"). There is no natural dividing point for this list, as was noted during the previous discussion about this, and the list of sources you posted shows this to be a point of inconsistency in the sources. WP:SPLITLIST says "Lists, tables, and other material that is already in summary form may not be appropriate for reducing or summarizing further by the summary style method. If there is no "natural" way to split or reduce a long list or table, it may be best to leave it intact, and a decision made to either keep it embedded in the main article or split it off into a stand-alone page. Regardless, a list or table should be kept as short as is feasible for its purpose and scope. Too much statistical data is against policy." If you are concerned about too much data in the list, you could always streamline it by removing the Birth column or something, but I don't think even that is necessary. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

The list should not be split. If an article must be longer than the guidelines advise, then that's what should happen. Have a look at List of pharaohs for example, which even includes the Roman ones at the end. The fact that no one is sure where to split the Roman emperor list is a pretty good indication that it shouldn't be split. TharkunColl (talk) 07:56, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why some people would actually have the entire List of Byzantine emperors overlap with this one. Your average person who is willingly checking this page probably won't be looking for, say, Byzantine emperors in the lower middle ages. The arbitrariness of a hypothetical division isn't really a good argument: for the sake of convenience anything can be worked out. Avis11 (talk) 15:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Edit – everyone after Zeno should be discarded and addressed in the Byzantine counterpart. Avis11 (talk) 18:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

What's the logic of excluding Anastasius? Or excluding Justinian? Isn't it his Corpus Juris Civilis that's mentioned in the first paragraph of Roman law's article?

Convenience takes precedence over logic here given that those individuals will still be displayed, only in another list. The list of Roman emperors would still have a sentence at the bottom saying "for further entries, see list of Byzantine emperors", so it's not like we'd be excluding Byzantine emperors from the category 'Roman'. And, for all one could argue in favor of the Roman-ness of the Byzantine empire, the latter still evolved into a distinct entity and is itself the subject of a wholly distinct scholarly tradition. Again, average people who got to this article intentionally won't be interested in most Byzantine emperors, especially when there is already a separate article for them.

The arbitrariness of where to draw the splitting line is a secondary problem at best. I prefer Zeno since the extinction of western empire during his reign would have removed the context of the greater Roman world his predecessors were familiar with, and caused the eastern empire to exist as its own distinct entity. Zeno's article even says "Historians commonly refer to his reign as the start of Byzantine imperial history". Avis11 (talk) 01:15, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

The absurdity of splitting the list anywhere can be summed up by asking a simple question: Was Britain ever part of the Byzantine Empire? TharkunColl (talk) 07:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it was al-Idrisi that believed it still was in his day. Certainly there was a British province named for a "Byzantine" emperor. Some parts of Britain took fighting under the cross after their king saw a cross appear in the sky before a great battle ... GPinkerton (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

TharkunColl: no, it wasn't, therefore Byzantine empire =/= Roman empire and thus the need to split lists. Avis11 (talk) 02:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Britain was part of the empire that Constantine and many of his successors ruled from Constantinople. Are you saying that Constantine was not a Byzantine emperor? If he wasn't, why not? TharkunColl (talk) 07:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Constantine is universally called a Roman emperor, and even if the Byzantine label isn't incorrect per se it's still an irrelevant technicality. That the entire list of Byzantine emperors is rendered redundant by your proposal is a more pressing issue than details like this. Avis11 (talk) 18:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

The redundancy suggests to me that List of Byzantine emperors should actually be a redirect to this article. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Note that practically none of the sources given above do what you're proposing, and this isn't about denying the 'Roman-ness' of the Byzantines, as Ichthyovenator said. Avis11 (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I feel that one could consider the fact that Wikipedia diverges from other lists of emperors to be an issue. I included the published lists I could find, so it is possible that there are more lists out there that could cement a "common" breaking point (or be more in favor of including all the Byzantines). The Byzantines were of course Roman, beyond the obvious continuity there are innumerable examples of Roman "stuff" that carried over all the way to Byzantium's last days. Though I myself cautiously favor a list of emperors from Augustus to Constantine XI in some form, I am wary of this conflicting with most of the sources I could find, especially since Wikipedia is built on published sources. I don't think we have to discuss where exactly the list would be divided (I think Maurice would be best if the decision is made, though) until there is consensus to actually go through with such a division (at the moment it looks like 2 in favor of dividing and 3 against). Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:37, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, the argument is not (or at least should not be) whether the Byzantines were Roman (they were), but whether that means they should be in this list, even if that conflicts with other published sources. That the split is somewhat arbitrary (and that some sources do go all the way to the Palaiologoi) does somewhat speak in favor of including the Byzantines I think. I've noticed that List of Yuan emperors and List of Northern Yuan khans are split, which might be a similar case to our predicament (they had the ostensibly the same titles and were even all part of the same dynasty, though the Northern Yuan governed considerably less territory). Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:09, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure that the non-1453 list sources are actually claiming to be complete lists. The universally regarded classic by Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, included the eastern emperors. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

This is true. I'm gonna note that the issue of whether to merge the List of Byzantine emperors (potentially to a new List of Roman and Byzantine emperors to fit with the List of Roman and Byzantine Empresses) was brought up in 2017 and hotly debated, though it appears the consensus then was to not merge. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

FYI Avis11, GPinkerton has since removed the unsourced sentence "Historians commonly refer to his reign as the start of Byzantine imperial history" from Zeno's article. AmateurEditor (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's an argument: the List of Roman emperors needs to be separate because the List of Byzantine emperors contains (or rather, should contain) a number of non-Roman Byzantine emperors, namely the Latin emperors. If we take the list of Byzantine emperors as beginning with Constantine in May 330 with his inauguration of Constantinople, by virtue of it being possessor of Constantinople that above all else makes one a "Byzantine" emperor, then the 13th-century non-Roman emperors of Byzantium should surely figure on one list but not on the other. The Oxford History of Byzantium`s end-of-the-book "Chronology" arranged by emperors lists the Latins and Nicenes both, in a list that begins with the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. GPinkerton (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary, that's an argument for not splitting the list. A state can change its capital as often as it wants to, and still be the same state. The point about Constantine being a "Byzantine" emperor is that it highlights the absurdity of making any distinction between Roman and Byzantine. The emperors who ruled from Nicea are Roman Emperors, just as are the emperors who ruled from Rome or Constantinople (or Milan or Ravenna). As for including the Latin emperors, this makes no difference to whether the list should be split or not, but I note that we don't include Odoacer in Italy. It's possible to argue, of course, that the Nicean emperors are only legitimate Roman Emperors in retrospect, since they later re-took Constantinople, and that, for example, the emperors of Trebizond had just as much, or almost as much, claim to the title. If one argues this, then one might accept that this list should be split at 1204, but I suspect that this will be very unsatisfying for the proponents of splitting it. TharkunColl (talk) 08:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not suggesting splitting the list, just having two separate ones like we have now. GPinkerton (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Pinging the users involved in the aforementioned 2017 discussion over at the Byzantine list in regards to a potential merger to see if they have an opinion in regards to this discussion; Chessrat, Cplakidas, I Feel Tired, Iveagh Gardens, PennsylvanianSocialDemocrat, Swarm, SilentResident, Dr.K., Thevaluablediamond. If we establish proper conensus in regards to this, either in keeping or removing the Byzantine emperors, this discussion will not have to be raised again. The main arguments for keeping the Byzantines in appear to be the continuity between Rome and Constantinople (Byzantium and Rome being the same state with a continuous line of emperors all referring to themselves as Roman emperors), that any point where a split is made is going to be arbitrary since there is no obvious single point where Rome transforms into Byzantium (note that various lists of Roman emperors stop at different points) and that there is only a single list of empresses (List of Roman and Byzantine Empresses, which is in a quite poor state as well) for both Romans and Byzantines (one could argue that the lists of emperors should thus be merged into a single List of Roman and Byzantine emperors). The main arguments against keeping the Byzantines in would be that this differs from other published lists of Roman emperors which typically end in the 4th–7th centuries and that despite their continuity, modern studies treat research into ancient Rome and research into Byzantium as two different fields and that lists of emperors of both should thus be split accordingly. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi to all. For me, the situation is simple: as long as we distinguish the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire (the reasons are irrelevant, we all known them and have our opinions on this topic, but let's accept as a fact that it is, and will for some time to come remain, both common-name and scholarly usage, and therefore Wikipedia practice) it makes eminent sense to deal with the rulers of the two in the same way. As long as Byzantium is regarded as a distinct topic, whatever the continuities between the two, this should be reflected in all content associated with it (e.g. Byzantine law is a direct continuation of Roman law, and one of the areas in which Byzantine culture arguably remained most 'Roman' throughout, but we have a different article on it). There will be an overlap between the two, at least in the 330-395 period, but that is inevitable: a list of Byzantine emperors can only begin with Constantine I, and any treatment of the 'early Byzantine period' probably would begin with at least some coverage of the Diocletian and the Dominate. OTOH, the Latin Empire was so different an entity that I completely disagree that its rulers should be included in full; a link should be provided, yes, but although they were "Emperors of Constantinople", they were definitely not "Roman" in any sense, whether classical or otherwise. Constantine ✍ 15:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. If Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire are distinct topics then the emperors are so too. Avis11 (talk) 00:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

They are different topics or they are the same topic, depending on what source you are looking at (but they are not distinct topics, as any general source on the "Byzantine" empire takes care to explain), so the most reasonable solution for this article is to combine them, as we have done. An additional benefit is that this helps us sidestep the otherwise unsolvable inconsistencies between reliable sources on when the Byzantine empire began. Splitting the lists is essentially taking sides in an ongoing academic disagreement, which we are not supposed to do. I don't really care whether we rename this article "List of Roman and Byzantine emperors" or not. I am fine with not renaming it. The articles Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire can exist without it having any bearing on this list the same way that the existence of the articles Western Roman Empire, Principate, and Dominate do not justify splitting off those emperors from this list. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The academic disagreement is more accurately zero: all but one source cited above list all emperors from 27 BC to AD 1453. Where to draw the line is a different issue and irrelevant to the matter at hand. There would still be a note at the bottom of the page saying "for further entries, see list of Byzantine emperors", so it's not like a hard division being made anyway. Historiography treats Roman and Byzantine history as two different topics, whence their different names (obviously?). Principate and Dominate have nothing to do w/ all this. Roman and Byzantine Empire are different pages and different historiographical traditions, therefore it's only common sense that their respective emperor lists be so too. Your average person interested in Roman emperors certainly won't be looking for late-medieval Byzantine rulers in this page. And, of course, the Byzantine list becomes entirely redundant if the Roman one encompasses everyone up to 1453. Avis11 (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Avis11, the sources listed above are not actually claiming to be comprehensive lists of all the Roman emperors (except for the one that goes to 1453). I have started assembling a more comprehensive list of sources on personal subpage and looking into the ones that stop short for language addressing the reasons and the clear pattern is that these are explicitly subset lists of emperors in which the line is acknowledged to proceed to the Byzantine period. If there is a case to be made for lack of disagreement in the sources, it falls on the side of including the Byzantine emperors on this page. AmateurEditor (talk) 03:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I added a new list of sources in a new section below (which includes the ones listed above) that shows most sources treating Byzantine emperors as a type of Roman emperor. AmateurEditor (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

In regards to "splitting the lists is essentially taking sides in an ongoing academic disagreement, which we are not supposed to do"; considering that virtually every single list of Roman emperors has a different ending point, there is simply no way that we are going to be able to produce a list which does not "take a side". Having the list go all the way to 1453, while accurate in so far as all emperors on it referred to themselves as Roman emperors, is definitely taking a side. The objective of this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement in regards to which side is the most appropriate to take. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Having the list go all the way to 1453 is not so much taking a side, as simply being inclusive. Any other option would definitely involve taking a side, because we would have to decide who is the last person who can legitimately be called a Roman Emperor. TharkunColl (talk) 16:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

No. There would still be a note at the bottom of the page saying "for further entries, see list of Byzantine emperors", so it's not like a hard division being made anyway. Avis11 (talk) 20:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with Cplakidas, exclude the Latin Empire. Otherwise we'll need to include other competing Roman-ish entities like the Gallic Empire & Empire of Trebizond, to name two of the most significant. -- llywrch (talk) 22:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I also agree that the Latin emperors should be excluded from this list. One could actually make a case for including the Gallic emperors (they were indisputably Roman and they were also emperors), who are listed in some of the sources linked above (notably Livius and The Imperial Families of Ancient Rome) but that would probably be more trouble than it's worth and make arranging the list difficult, not to mention not reflecting the actual political situation at the time. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Theodosius is listed twice for some reason, this needs to be fixed. Also, it is not true to say that all the emperors who ruled from Constantinople were eastern emperors. Legally speaking, from 480 onwards they were emperors of the whole empire. TharkunColl (talk) 23:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging me Ichthyovenator. I'm definitely for including both the Eastern and Western Roman Emperors on this list for the sake of completion. Having a single article makes it easier to navigate without having to jump between two, and there's less arbitrary division between who goes on which list. Although I do agree with Cplakidas that we don't need the Latin Emperors. I Feel Tired (talk) 02:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

What exactly is the point of the monster list of sources below? The only point I can see is trying to prove that the list should not be split based on number of sources that combine Rome and Byzantium into a single topic. However, this argument has long since ceased to be a discussion of scholarly sources, and has become a political football being kicked back and forth between those who feel that Rome and Byzantium are two separate topics, and those who think they're the same topic. This list is rather useless, IMO, since it's cherry-picked for a specific purpose, and pretty much ignores every published source between 1825 and 1997, and actually only includes two sources before 1997. We don't determine truth by counting the number of published sources for any period of time. This discussion is a matter of opinion concerning the best way to treat a long list, based on reader expectations, and it doesn't have an absolute right or wrong based on the sheer volume of publications over the last twenty-three years that follow each approach. But as far as I'm concerned the point of the discussion was lost long ago in a debate about whether the Byzantines were "Roman" or not—that should never have been the point. One group of editors will never allow this article to be split, so the whole discussion seems like a colossal waste of time now. P Aculeius (talk) 13:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

P Aculeius, the point of the list below is to refocus our discussion away from editor opinions and preferences and back to the facts of what published sources say, so that we can achieve a consensus and not waste our time. Without that focus, our discussion is indeed about editor opinions and a big waste of time. Some editors seemed to be using the very short list of sources posted above as evidence that most sources do not include consider the Byzantine emperors as Roman, so they should not be included here. The sources below are based on what I could find online and show that this is not the case. A comprehensive list is important to establish a common understanding between editors of whatever consensus there may be among reliable sources. I tried to include everything I could find, but if you have additional sources that you think should be included please add them (or point me to them and I will add them for you). AmateurEditor (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

That's the whole point: you cannot prove anything about whether the list should be split by listing dozens of books/websites that do A, B, or C. It is not a matter of empirical fact, it is a question of opinion and judgment. The fact that people are still arguing as if you could just count the number of sources that do anything at any point in time proves that this entire discussion has been a complete waste of time, as no consensus is possible when people are demanding truth instead of basing their decisions on reasonable and pragmatic grounds. P Aculeius (talk) 15:45, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree "it is not a matter of empirical fact, it is a question of opinion and judgment", but it is a question of the opinion and judgment of reliable sources, not wikipedia editors. It is critical that we editors have a common understanding of what the reliable sources, as a group, have said. We need only agree with each other on the facts of what reliable sources' opinions on the subject are and what wikipedia policy requires. AmateurEditor (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@AmateurEditor: The Cambridge Medieval History mentioned by Mango seems worthy of inclusion, as would whatever position the New Cambridge Medieval History has to say on the matter. J. D. Bury's History of the Late Roman Empire (1889) is prefaced by a discussion of the terminology that preserves "Roman Empire" until 1453, criticizes Gibbon for the idea of a "Fall of the Western Roman Empire", refers to the phrase "Byzantine Empire" as "dangerous" and "highly objectionable, because [it] ... tend[s] to obscure an important fact and perpetuate a serious error", opines that the idea of Eastern and Western empires in Late Antiquity before 476 "both incorrect in itself and leads to a further confusion", reserves Eastern Roman Empire for the period after Charlemagne only, says that "No one talks about two Roman Empires in the days of Constantius and Constans; yet the relation of Arcadius and Honorius, the relation of Theodosius II and Valentinian III, the relation of Leo I and Anthemius, were exactly the same as the political relation which existed between the sons of Constantine", continues with "The resignation of Romulus Augustulus did not even shake the Roman Empire, far less did it cause an Empire to fall", and concludes that "it will be probably long time yet before the inveterate error of assigning a wrong importance to the year 476 A.D. has been finally eradicated." Bury also makes reference to George Finlay, and his position should probably be included as one of the rare non-anti-Byzantine historians of the period. GPinkerton (talk) 16:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: I added the sources you suggested, along with your comments for Bury, although the GoogleBooks previews of the appendices of the volumes of the New Cambridge Medieval History were extremely limited for me and I don't think what I added there was very useful beyond confirming that Leo III is not being treated as the last Roman emperor/first Byzantine emperor in volume II. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

What your own source list shows is that there is much variance in written sources, so it's pointless to go through that angle. What is clear is this: Byzantinism is its own area of historical study – a category within, but also distinct from, Roman imperial studies. It is perfectly reasonable to select an arbitrary point in the list (Zeno, Maurice or whatever), cut the list there, and link to the already existing Byzantine emperors' list – specifying, if you must, the continuity whose relevance to this debate you unduly emphasize (again, the OP specifically said this isn't about whether Byzantines were Roman or not). Wikipedia policy recommends against having two pages WP:OVERLAP content. There is already a perfectly good Byzantine list, a second one isn't needed. Avis11 (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Selecting an arbitrary point to divide this list would be a kind of original research on our part. We are supposed to follow what the reliable sources do, and there is no consensus among them to make such a break. In fact, although some of the sources use the "Byzantine" label beginning at different points as a subdivision of the emperors list and some of them have narrower scopes in their publications than others, geographically or chronologically, the consensus is clearly that the Roman/Byzantine empire was a single polity that evolved over time. WP:OVERLAP states that overlap is a good reason to merge pages, not to keep them separate. The reasons listed for not merging articles are "The resulting article would be too long or "clunky"; The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles; The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". No doubt the articles Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire are separate due to the first two reasons, since there is an enormous amount to write about for each of them and they definitely are not discrete subjects. As mentioned earlier, article length in a list article applies only to readable prose and this article is very far from the recommended limit. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not original researh at all: if you link to the Byzantine list at the bottom, it will still imply that Byz emperors are Romans, and 2 lists being used rather than 1 bears nothing on the fact that all emperors are still being displayed on Wikipedia as a whole. Ending the Roman list at, say, Maurice, followed by a sourced note explaining the problems of an exact categorization, and the logic behind the one adopted for that list specifically, cannot in any way be construed as original research. The fact that there is no consensus in written sources just means that drawing the line on just about anybody will still be consistent with the Wpolicy that reliable sources must be used.

Regarding merging policy, reason no. 2 of WP:OVERLAP is very much relevant here as well: having standalone, cross-linked articles is the best course of action here, and the current list is in fact too long and clunky as well. If you support maintaining Byz emperors here, you necessarily either (1) support merging the two articles (bad idea) or (2) having the two lists overlap. Nobody up til now has provided any practical, non-abstract reason to do number 2. It defies all WP:COMMONSENSE, it's uneconomical and it's wasteful. The overwhelming majority of people looking for, say, a late medieval Byzantine ("Roman") emperor will be doing so in the Byzantine list, not in the Roman one. Avis11 (talk) 21:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Avis11: "if you link to the Byzantine list at the bottom, it will still imply that Byz emperors are Romans". Even implications can be original research. WP:OR states "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[a] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Excluding the Byzantine Emperors from the Roman Emperors list implies that they were not Roman, not that they were, otherwise they would have been included in the Roman list to begin with. We shouldn't be implying that because the implication contradicts what appears to be a clear consensus in the reliable sources that the Byzantine emperors were Roman.

The fact that there is no consensus in written sources just means that drawing the line on just about anybody will still be consistent with the Wpolicy that reliable sources must be used. The lack of a consensus among the sources about when the Byzantine period of the Roman Empire began (or even if the term should be used at all) means that we need to, in the words of WP:NPOV, include "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." This means that it isn't enough to be able to point to one reliable source for a division, we have to consider all of the reliable sources as a whole. The only way to include all the various sub-categorizations found in reliable sources is to include them all on the same list and explain in a separate prose section what the various views among reliable sources are regarding terms and divisions. By splitting the list into two articles, we would be inappropriately reducing (or eliminating) the weight of those reliable sources that label various Byzantine emperors after the arbitrary cut as Roman (and we do have reliable sources that label as Roman all of the Byzantine emperors).

having standalone, cross-linked articles is the best course of action here, and the current list is in fact too long and clunky as well. WP:OVERLAP states merging is to be avoided if "The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles". The two separate lists cannot be expanded separately without creating overlap with each other. As you said earlier, "Wikipedia policy recommends against having two pages WP:OVERLAP content." The idea that this list is too long has already been addressed several times (it isn't too long according to WP:SIZERULE); see List of pharaohs and List of popes.

If you support maintaining Byz emperors here, you necessarily either (1) support merging the two articles (bad idea) or (2) having the two lists overlap. I support merging the articles into this one as the best idea. If you also want to rename this article to "List of Roman and Byzantine emperors", I am ok with that but I don't think it's necessary. AmateurEditor (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

1) I said it before, I'll say it again. If you put a note on the bottom of the list saying the rest of the 'Roman' emperors can be found at the list of Byzantine emperors, you are precisely not saying the Byzantine emperors aren't Roman.

2) Sorry but there is no real dispute that Byzantine is a thing in itself. To show all significant views on when it begins, that's... exactly what I think should be done. A paragraph or even a footnote at the bottom would be enough to enumerate all the varying criteria. By doing such a thing one is sure not to be 'picking sides', even when arbitrarily choosing a random emperor to stop the list on. No one is picking sides: it's just better to display them all in 2 lists instead of 1, especially when an easy & widely-used criteria for division – non-Byzantine vs Byzantine Roman – is available.

3) Yes, an overlap will always be there, but pushing it through the entire Middle Ages past Classical Antiquity is just stupid.

4) Merging is just a bad idea. Byzantine is a thing in itself, it has it's own WP page (and that's b/c of historians' consensus, not WP article size concerns) and merits it's own list. Avis11 (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

1) Right: you aren't saying that Roman and Byzantine are different with a separation like that, you're just strongly implying it (which is also a problem, per WP:OR, as explained in my previous comments). We do not have that problem with a single merged list.

2) "Byzantine" is a topic, I agree. It is not undisputed among significant reliable sources that it is a label that should be used, as multiple sources in the list below demonstrate, including the last one (the best one). In order to allow for those sources that call all the Byzantine emperors Roman, we must have all the emperors in one list. There is no getting around the fact that having the separate lists without any other rationale to justify it in Wikipedia's policies is the same as us taking a side in that dispute, no matter how much rationalization language we add to justify the division to the reader. The "Roman Empire" and "Byzantine Empire" articles are acceptable as separate because they do have another rationale: expansion of the articles beyond what one article would allow. In addition to contradicting policy, two lists is worse than one because someone who doesn't know better may have to check multiple articles to find what they are looking for.

3) No overlap will exist if "List of Byzantine emperors" redirects here, which is a third reason that one list is better than two.

4) Byzantine is a subtopic of Roman, not a "thing in itself". This is made clear in both the lede and sidebar at Roman Empire. The Roman Empire article also has 137,399 characters of readable prose, well beyond the 100 kB rule of thumb at WP:SIZERULE ("each kB can be equated to 1,000 characters"). Byzantine Empire has an additional 96,726 characters of readable prose, so size definitely prevents them from being merged. AmateurEditor (talk) 03:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

List of Roman consuls is not split at any point, and continues to the 9th century when the office was abolished by Leo VI. Will the advocates of splitting this list be equally as vocal in wishing to split that list too? And if not, why not? Needless to say, it is also a very long list, going all the way back to the 6th century BC. TharkunColl (talk) 07:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, the List of Roman Consuls has been proposed for splitting several times, although generally between consuls of the Republic and those under the Empire. The key difference is that the portion of the list dealing exclusively with the Byzantine period (from AD 535) is a very small portion of the list, and not particularly notable as a stand-alone topic, compared with say, Byzantine emperors. Republican consuls were the chief magistrates of the state; though greatly reduced in power and prestige, they continued to fulfill important administrative duties in imperial times; but from the sixth century onward the consulship was little more than a title assumed by some of the emperors and occasionally bestowed on others, with no more than symbolic value—a value derived from the continuity of the office with antiquity. The problem here is that editors are trying to make the List of Roman Emperors seem much more important by including all of Byzantine history (except for those nasty little Latin emperors, slumming up the place, who needs to know about them?). Which, IMO, makes continuing this discussion largely political and pointless. The goal should be to improve the encyclopedia, not to magnify the glory of Rome—which apparently isn't impressive enough unless you tack on all of Byzantine history. P Aculeius (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that anyone here is motivated by a desire to glorify Rome. As you say, it hardly needs it. Not to mention the fact that some might argue that a bunch of obscure potentates ruling a tiny, impoverished rump state at the end of the Middle Ages, hundreds of miles from Rome itself, is not necessarily a dignified end to the empire of the Caesars, and yet that's exactly how it ended. My own motivation is to not falsify history by implying that the "Byzantine" empire is somehow not the Roman Empire. Also, in a more general sense, I'm an inclusionist, rather than an exclusionist. As for the list of consuls, to splitters, it really shouldn't matter that the "Byzantine" list will be short. After all, they can hardly complain about short articles, after complaining about long ones. If they truly believe that the "Byzantine" empire is a different empire to the Roman Empire (by which I mean, different enough to require a different article when listing its rulers), they should apply this principle across the board. TharkunColl (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Ichthyovenator for the alert, responding to this late as I am. I've grown convinced that it makes sense to separate Byzantine emperors from the standard list of Roman emperors. I saw this as someone who spent a fair bit of time two years ago trying to regularise the Byzantine emperors so that they would appear in the same format in the table on this page. A break does not in itself imply that Constantine XI is not a successor to Augustus, but it does reflect the separate scholarship and scope of the separate lists. A break in pages doesn't mean we are implying that the people in Constantinople would have noticed any great change in the state they were living in in 476. There's a reality to the two lists being maintained separately, by enthusiasts of the separate periods. The best period to break is probably to include the Eastern emperors up to Zeno on this page, so that they can compared against the Western emperors. That has an overlap from the time of Constantine with List of Byzantine emperors, but not the complete duplication with have at the moment. Anyone reading the pages on the Byzantine Empire here, or the list of emperors, should find evidence making it clear that is the Roman Empire continuing on, rather than a new institution. There's nothing innovative in separating the lists, or treating the periods quite separately; scholars and libraries have been doing so for centuries. I'm not sure Wikipedia is the place for us to make the grand stand of treating later Byzantium as only Rome in continuation. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

I think we should be basing our decisions on wikipedia policies and reliable sources alone. Otherwise there is no hope of consensus. AmateurEditor (talk) 01:30, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I do not see much potential for a clear consensus. The reliable sources draw their lines at different historical eras, and Wikipedia's policies themselves do not exclude presenting contradictory POVs. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view clearly states: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." Dimadick (talk) 11:03, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Looking over this now (unless I counted wrong, which is a real possibility), it looks like there are 4 people for excluding the Byzantines and 4 people for including them, i. e. a classic case of no consensus, so I am not sure how this should be resolved. In regards to Dimadick's comment above, about presenting and discussing opposing contradictory views, I am not sure that this is possible in this case since the list cannot end both in Late Antiquity and at the end of the Middle Ages. I don't follow along with the argument that the list going all the way to 1453 is some way of not taking a stand in regards to the issue at hand. Regardless of when we choose the list to end, we are going to make a choice that contradicts a majority of published lists of Roman emperors (since a vast majority of them end at different points in time). Making the list end in 476, 480, 602 or 641 are big stands to take, but so is making the list end in 1453. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:14, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

There are already two separate lists, and both sides seemed to agree that the current overlap of one w/ the other is stupid. This leaves the option of either (1) going through the rather complicated process of merging of both lists (which only 2 people here have explicitly suggested) or (2) cutting the Roman list somewhere, which is easily reversible. As you accurately said, someone is going to be upset over this one way or another, and opting for 1453 is just as much taking a side as picking any other date.

I counted two people who were categorically in favor of 1453, with a third making a brief comment about the list needing to be 'complete', w/o addressing any of the problems you just mentioned. The arguments presented here against using two Wikipedia pages instead of one – 'taking a side' on academic debate, 'completeness' – are abstract and inconsequential. Because there is no definite consensus on whether to use 1 or 2 lists, but there is one with regards to having fewer duplicate content, it might be better in the end to just cut the list at the 7th-century on the basis that reverting such measure is easy. If this deadlock is kept up, the problem of two lists excessively overlapping will remain. Avis11 (talk) 20:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

In case I hadn't made myself clear, I am categorically in favour of 1453, because this is the only option that is both complete, and avoids having to make a POV judgement about where to split the list. As for List of Byzantine emperors, this is clearly a redundant article. It's like having a List of US presidents since the Civil War or some such arbitrary division. Making it a redirect to this one is clearly the best option. TharkunColl (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, we already have the merged list here. The simplest solution in my view is to rename this article List of Roman and Byzantine emperors, describing in prose the various divisions proposed in various sources (but in effect leaving it up to the reader as to where any division in the list between "Roman" and "Byzantine" might be), and redirecting List of Byzantine emperors here. Having one list go all the way to 1453 is the only way to represent all the various sources because any split is a de facto rejection of those reliable sources that list Roman emperors up to 1453. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Renaming this article as List of Roman and Byzantine emperors is fine by me. TharkunColl (talk) 21:42, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

• Can we please just preserve the status quo? I don't see any reason to change anything drastic. Having two lists is fine. List of Byzantine emperors contains different information. It has the names in Greek. It could contain more Christianity-related stuff than could the longer general list of Roman emperors - who convened what councils, adhered to what heresies. It could contain more Byzantium-specific material - who built what forum, what cathedral, what honorific column, what aqueduct. A "List of Byzantine emperors" is frequently encountered in the sources, and is at least as common as is a "List of Roman emperors", of whatever length each might be. To be vast and complete, we should have lists of both categories of emperors, whether or not many members happen to populate both sets. One list begins with Constantine, the other with Augustus. Both end the same way. This encyclopaedia is not printed on paper. Please just let's improve both lists rather than arguing for destruction of one or the dismemberment of both. GPinkerton (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Recent change

@Avis11: In your most recent edit you appear to have removed the word Augustus without justification. The source you have added says the nothing about "Augustus" being dropped; that's not right at all. It says they dropped the name Imperator Caesar which the prior emperors used as their praenomen. There's no reason to remove Augustus. It's particularly egregious to arbitrarily remove it at at this point when when almost each and every illustration has the legend aug., which as I'm sure you know I'm going to tell you continues to be part of the emperors' names long after 306. Please put them back in. GPinkerton (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources List for discussions

Title	Type	Date	Author	Start	End	Excerpts/notes related to end of the Roman Emperors/Roman Empire
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire	Book	1776	Edward Gibbon	Augustus	Constantine XI	"The entire series of Roman Emperors, from the first of the Cesars to the last of the Constantines, extends above fifteen hundred years: and the term of dominion unbroken by foreign conquest, surpasses the measure of ancient monarchies; the Assyrians or Medes, the successors of Cyrus, or those of Alexander." See also the wikipedia article Outline of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
A History of the Roman Emperors	Book	1825	Charles Abraham Elton	Augustus (28 BC)	Constantine XI (1453)	"Chronological List of Emperors"
A History of the Later Roman Empire from Arcadius to Irene (395 A.D. to 800 A.D) Volume 2	Book	2015 (first published in 1889)	J. D. Bury	Augustus	1453	From the description: "Arguing for the underlying continuity of the Roman empire from the time of Augustus until 1453, Bury nevertheless begins his account in the year in which, on the death of Theodosius I, the empire was divided into eastern and western parts, and Constantinople began to take on the metropolitan role formerly held by Rome." Prefaced by a discussion of the terminology that preserves "Roman Empire" until 1453, criticizes Gibbon for the idea of a "Fall of the Western Roman Empire", refers to the phrase "Byzantine Empire" as "dangerous" and "highly objectionable, because [it] ... tend[s] to obscure an important fact and perpetuate a serious error", opines that the idea of Eastern and Western empires in Late Antiquity before 476 "both incorrect in itself and leads to a further confusion", reserves Eastern Roman Empire for the period after Charlemagne only, says that "No one talks about two Roman Empires in the days of Constantius and Constans; yet the relation of Arcadius and Honorius, the relation of Theodosius II and Valentinian III, the relation of Leo I and Anthemius, were exactly the same as the political relation which existed between the sons of Constantine", continues with "The resignation of Romulus Augustulus did not even shake the Roman Empire, far less did it cause an Empire to fall", and concludes that "it will be probably long time yet before the inveterate error of assigning a wrong importance to the year 476 A.D. has been finally eradicated."
Greece Under the Romans	Book	1907	George Finlay	Augustus	1204	From the preface: "1. The first of these periods comprises the history of Greece under the Roman government." [...] "The predominant feelings of Roman influences and prejudices in the Eastern Empire terminates with the accession of Leo the Isaurian, who gave the administration at Constantinople a new character. 2. The second period embraces the history of the Eastern Roman Empire in its new form, under its conventional title of the Byzantine Empire." [...] "Byzantine history extends from the accession of Leo the Isaurian, in the year 716, to the conquest of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204. 3. After the destruction of the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek history diverges into many channels." [...] "After the lapse of less than sixty years, they recovered possession of Constantinople; but though the government they exercised retained the proud title of the Roman Empire, it was only a degenerate representative even of the Byzantine state. This third period is characterised as the Greek Empire of Constantinople. Its feeble existance was terminated by the Othoman Turks at the taking of Constantinople in 1453."
The Cambridge Medieval History Volumes 1-5	Book	1911-1936	Henry Melvill Gwatkin, Mary Bateson, G.T. Lapsley, and James Pounder Whitney	Augustus	1453	"With the loss of the Western provinces, cause by the expansion of the Germanic peoples, the ancient Roman Empire persisted only in the East. Until it finally succumbed to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, this Later Roman Empire - this Greek or Byzantine Empire - was the true Roman Empire, its Emperors being the legitimate successors of Augustus in an unbroken line of continuity;"
The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, Volume I, The Later Roman Empire to the Twelfth Century	Book	1960	C. W. Previté-Orton	Augustus (28 BC)	Leo III The Isaurian (717-740)	"The reign of Leo III 'The Isaurian' (717-40) marks the consummation of a rapid change in the Eastern Roman Empire which had been going on for a hundred years. It was then that the Empire fully entered on its Byzantine period, Greek in speech, deeply orientalized, with Christianity ingrained in its thought and ethos. This Greek speech and mentality did not obliterate its inheritance from the older Roman phase of the Empire: its inhabitants thought of themselves as Romans ('Ρωμαίοι)--to the Moslems their land was Rum; their official language was tinged with borrowed Latin words; their institutions, bureaucracy, army and navy, law and finance were developments from the Roman State. The Basileus was the true successor of the Caesars; his titles of Autocrat and Sebastos were old translations of Imperator and Augustus, and though a despot, with power to associate his colleague and heir, he was on a vacancy still nominally elected by the Senate of New Rome (Constantinople) and acclaimed before or afterwards by his troops."
The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, Volume II, The Twelfth Century to the Renaissance	Book	1960	C. W. Previté-Orton	Diocletian (284)	476	The Appendices include separate lists on subsequent pages: "(1) Roman Emperors (284-476);" which includes parallel lists labeled "In the East" and "In the West" after 394, and "(2) Byzantine Emperors (from 491)" which ends in 1204 and then includes lists labeled "Latin Emperors" from 1204 to 1261, "Emperors at Nicaea" from 1206 to 1261, and "Emperors at Constantinople" from 1261 to 1453.
The New Cambridge Medieval History: Volume II, c.700-c.900	Book	1995	Rosamond McKitterick			"Appendix: genealogical tables" includes "Table 12: Byzantine Rulers c.700-c.900" on page 895 that includes "I Heraclians", "II Syrians", and "III Amorians" genealogist tables/lists of Byzantine emperors from Heraclius to Michael III.
The Roman Emperors: A Biographical Guide to the Rulers of Imperial Rome, 31 BC-AD 476	Book	1997	Michael Grant	31 BC	AD 476	Subtitle of the book: "the Rulers of Imperial Rome, 31 BC-AD 476"
From Rome to Byzantium: The fifth century AD	Book	1998	Michael Grant	Augustus (31 BC)	Anastasius I (518)	Subtitle of the book: "The fifth century AD".
The Oxford Illustrated History of the Roman World	Book	2001	John Boardman, Jasper Griffin, Oswyn Murray		1453	"The Late Empire" [...] "1453 Conquest of Constantinople by the Turks and end of the Eastern Roman Empire"
Who's who in the Roman World	Book	2002	John Hazel	Augustus (27 BC)	Jovian (364)	"Appendix II: List of the Roman Emperors"
The Government of the Roman Empire: A Sourcebook	Book	2002	Barbara Levick	Octavian (31 BC)	M. Aurelius Carinus (285)	Description: "This book reveals how an empire that stretched from Glasgow to Aswan in Egypt could be ruled from a single city and still survive more than a thousand years."
The Immortal Emperor: The Life and Legend of Constantine Palaiologos, Last Emperor of the Romans	Book	2002	Donald M. Nicol	Augustus	Constantine XI	The subtitle of the book: "Constantine Palaiologos, Last Emperor of the Romans". From the preface: "Constantine Palaiologos was the last emperor of Constantinople, the New Rome. He was killed defending his city against the Ottoman Turks in 1453. The Turkish conquest completed the transformation of the Christian Byzantine Empire into the Muslim Ottoman Empire. Constantine's death marked the end of an institution that traced its origins back to the reign of Constantine the Great in the fourth century, or indeed back to Augustus, the first Roman Emperor."
The Oxford History of Byzantium	Book	2002	Cyril Mango	Augustus	Constantine XI	"Byzantium, then, is a term of convenience when it is not a term of inconvenience. On any reasonable definition Byzantium must be seen as the direct continuation of the Roman empire in the eastern half of the Mediterranean basin, i.e. that part of the Roman Empire that was Hellenistic in its culture and language. Being a continuation, it had no beginning, although a number of symbolic dates have been advanced as marking that elusive birthday: the accession of Dioclecian (AD 284), the foundation of Constantinople (324) or its ceremonial inauguration (330), the adoption of Christianity as the all but exclusive religion of the empire (c.380), the division of the empire into separately ruled eastern and western halves (395), the abolition of the western empire (476), even the accession of Leo III (716), the last being still enshrined in The Cambridge Medieval History. To all of these dates more or less cogent objections have been raised. That, however, does not solve a problem that probably owes more to a feeling than to the kind of 'objective' criteria that are supposed to underpin historical periodization."
The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Roman Empire	Book	2002	Eric Nelson	Augustus	1453	Chapter 1 includes a subsection called "The Byzantine Period (565-1453)", which states "People don't often think of the Byzantine culture as 'Roman'. Greek, not Latin, was the language of the realm and the Orthodox Church developed apart from the Latin Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the culture we know as Byzantine was the continuation of the eastern Roman Empire and saw itself in that light. Citizens called themselves Romaioi (Romans) and recognized their emperor as the legitimate Roman emperor in the 'New Rome', Constantinople."
Metropolitan Museum of Art	Website	October 2004	Department of Greek and Roman Art	Augustus (27 BC)	Anastasius I (518)	Titled "List of Rulers of the Roman Empire". It includes sections labeled "Eastern Roman Empire", and "Eastern Roman Empire (after death of Jovian)".
A Pocket Dictionary of Roman Emperors	Book	2006	Paul Roberts	Augustus (27 BC)	Romulus Augustulus (476)	From page 48: "German kings ruled Italy and the remains of the western empire withered away. The only emperor now was in Constantinople, the capital of the eastern (Byzantine) empire, which lasted until AD 1453."
A History of the Later Roman Empire, AD 284-641: The Transformation of the Ancient World	Book	2006	Stephen Mitchell	Diocletian	Heraclius	From the description: "This book presents a historical study of the Roman Empire in Late Antiquity from the accession of the emperor Diocletian 284 to the death of the emperor Heraclius in 641."
How Rome Fell: Death of a Superpower	Book	2009	Adrian Keith Goldsworthy	Augustus	fifteenth century	"Rome's fall is memorable because its empire lasted for so long -- more than five hundred years after Caesars death in Italy and the western provinces, and three times as long in the east, where emperors would rule from Constantinople until the fifteenth century." [...] "Similarly I have made no real use of the modern terms 'Byzantium' and 'Byzantine', and the emperors who ruled from Constantinople are referred to as Roman even when they no longer controlled Italy and Rome itself. This was how they knew themselves." [...] "The aim of this study is to look more closely at both the internal and external problems faced by the Roman Empire. It will begin, as Gibbon did, in the year 180 when the empire still appeared to be in its heyday, before moving on to trace the descent into the chaos of the middle of the third century. Then we will examine the rebuilt empire of Diocletian and Constantine, the move towards division into an eastern and western half in the fourth century and the collapse of the west in the fifth. It will end with the abortive effort of the Eastern Empire to recapture the lost territories in the sixth century. Gibbon went much further, continuing to the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in the fifteenth century. That is a fascinating story in its own right, but it is too great a one to be dealt with adequately here. By the end of the sixth century the world was profoundly and permanently different from our starting point. The Eastern Roman Empire was strong, but no longer possessed the overwhelming might and dominance of the united Roman Empire. This book is about how this came about." [...] "There is a bitter irony that he should be named Romulus after Rome's mythical founder and nicknamed Augustus after the first emperor Augustus."
Ancient History Encyclopedia	Website	accessed 2020	founded in 2009 by Jan van der Crabben	Augustus (27 BC)	Constantine I (337)	Titled "Roman Emperor Timeline" and ends with Constantine. Clicking on the link to "Roman Emperor", it starts "Roman emperors ruled over the Imperial Roman Empire starting with Augustus from 27 BCE and continuing in the Western Roman Empire until the late 5th century CE and in the Eastern Roman Empire up to the mid-15th century CE."
The Complete Roman Emperor: Imperial Life at Court and on Campaign	Book	2010	Michael Sommer	Augustus	Romulus Augustulus	From the book description: "The eighty-five emperors who ruled Rome for five centuries are among the most famous and notorious leaders in history."
The Ruin of the Roman Empire	Book	2011	James J O'Donnell	Augustus (31 BC)	Heraclius (641)	"A simplified table. For fuller information, see the website De Imperatoribus Romanis (http://www.roman-emperors.org), in which this is based."
From Rome to Byzantium AD 363 to 565: The Transformation of Ancient Rome	Book	2013	A. D. Lee	Constantine I (306)	Heraclius (641)	"Roman emperors during late antiquity".
Emperors of Rome: The Story of Imperial Rome from Julius Caesar to the Last Emperor	Book	2016	David Potter	Augustus (29 BC)	Romulus Augustulus (476)	Chapter title: "Final Decline and Fall: The collapse of the Western Empire (AD 411-476)".
The Byzantine Empire 717-1453	Book	2018	George Finlay	Leo the Isaurian	Constantine XI	"The Eastern Roman Empire, thus reformed, is called by modern historians the Byzantine Empire; and the term is well devised to mark the changes effected in the government, after the extinction of the last traces of the military monarchy of ancient Rome. The social conditions of the inhabitants of the Eastern Empire had already undergone a considerable change during the century which elapsed from the accession of Heraclius to that of Leo, from the influence of causes to be noticed in the following pages; and this change in society created a new phase in the Roman empire. The gradual process of this change has led some writers to date the commencement of the Byzantine Empire as the reigns of Zeno and Anastasius, and others to descend so late as the times of Maurice and Heraclius. But as the Byzantine Empire was only a continuation of the Roman government under a reformed system, it seems most correct to date its commencement from the period when the new social and political modifications produced a visible effect on the fate of the Eastern Empire. This period is marked by the accession of Leo the Isaurian."
The Imperial Families of Ancient Rome	Book	2019	Maxwell Craven	Julius Caesar (49 BC)	Maurice (and Theodosius) (602)	From Contents: "VIII The Eastern Empire to 602"; From the Preface: "To understand how this might work in the context of the emperors of Rome from the triumph of Julius Caesar in 49BC to the death (say) of Mauricius (commonly Maurice) in 602, , it is necessary to provide, in the form of an introduction, how the system arose and how it worked."; From the Introduction: "The Roman Empire lasted an astonishingly long time, in the west five centuries, with almost a further millennium in the east, falling after two centuries of terminal decline to the Moslem Ottoman Turks in 1453."
Basileus: History of the Byzantine Emperors 284–1453	Book	2019	Weston Barnes	Diocletian (284)	Constantine XI Paleologus Dragases (1453)	Subtitle of the book: "History of the Byzantine Emperors 284–1453".
Encyclopaedia Britannica	Website	accessed 2020	Naomi Blumberg	Augustus (31 BC)	Zeno (491)	Titled "List of Roman emperors" and ends with Zeno.
ostia-antica.org	Website	accessed 2020		Augustus (27 BC)	Maurice (602)	The list is divided into two sections, labeled "Emperors from Augustus to Constantine" and "Emperors from Diocletian to Romulus" (but which also includes emperors up to Maurice).
Livius	Website	accessed 2020	Jona Lendering	Julius Caesar(48 BC)	Constans II (668)	The "List of Byzantine Emperors" page is presented as a subcategory of the "List of Roman Emperors" page.
De Imperatorobus Romanis	Website	Updated: 25 February 2020	Richard D. Weigel, and others	Augustus (31 BC)	Constantine XI (1453)	List title: "The Imperial Index: The Rulers of the Roman Empire From Augustus to Constantine XI Palaeologus". From the homepage: "DIR is an on-line encyclopedia on the rulers of the Roman empire from Augustus (27 BC-AD 14) to Constantine XI Palaeologus (1449-1453). The encyclopedia consists of (1) an index of all the emperors who ruled during the empire's 1500 years, (2) a growing number of biographical essays on the individual emperors, (3) family trees ("stemmata") of important imperial dynasties, (4) an index of significant battles in the empire's history, (5) a growing number of capsule descriptions and maps of these battles, and (6) maps of the empire at different times. Wherever possible, these materials are cross-referenced by live links. These contents are supplemented by an ancient and medieval atlas, a link to a virtual catalog of Roman coins, and other recommended links to related sites. The contents of DIR have been prepared by scholars but are meant to be accessible to non-specialists as well. They have been peer-reviewed for quality and accuracy before publication on this site."

Iconography of Roman and Byzantine Emperors

There seems to be some disputes between me and other users about which images should be used to portray the emperors. Whenever I replace a coin portrait w/ a bust, another user changes it back. Anyone willing to resolve this dispute? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diet Coke Diego (talk • contribs) 21:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The best way to solve it would be to provide your reasoning for wanting to change the images. Also pinging Avis11 who reverted you; I think everyone's growing tired of discussions in regards to this list by now but perhaps both clearly providing their reasoning here will avoid more edit-warring. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:58, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

If you had looked at the edit summaries I left, you wouldn't have arrived here clueless of what's up. First of all, there's nothing wrong with using coins: some of the coins provide better likenesses than actual statues. Of the several emperors whose images you changed, the following ones I care to talk about: Pertinax, Didius Julianus, the two Gordians, Philip II, Volusianus, Claudius Gothicus, Galerius, Constantius I and II, Licinius, Maximinus Daia, Constans, Valentinian I and II, Gratian, Theodosius I, Honorius and Heraclius.

1. Coins offer better likenesses than the statues you posted with regards to Pertinax, Claudius Gothicus, Galerius, Constantius II (arguably), Gratian and Valentinian II. Some of these aren't even confirmed likenesses. The one of Claudius is in any event too elongated for this list. The one you added for Constantius I is too ugly, the previous one (which was actually a statue too, not a coin) was better.
2. There is no reliable confirmation in Wikimedia Commons of the authenticity of Pertinax, Gordian II, Philip II (uploaded by a sock account), Volusianus, Licinius, Maximinus Daia, Valentinian I, Theodosius I and Honorius. If you had taken a few extra seconds to examine their Wikimedia pages you'd notice this. Some of their entries just make an attribution w/o any justification at all, some explicitly say that the attribution is uncertain, and others don't match the likenesses of their respective coins. You, in fact, uploaded Licinius a couple days ago w/o providing a source. You also added Heraclius and posted it on Wikipedia w/o checking if it would stay permanently.
3. The Louvre website has a question mark besides the so-called Constans bust.
4. This is more of a guess in my part, but I think the Gordian I bust isn't actually the emperor either. Avis11 (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I can confirm the Aphrodisias portrait is indeed Theodosius, and is firmly archaeologically associated with the rest of the monument of which it was a part, on which is inscribed the name of the emperor Theodosius in big letters. (But which? ...) GPinkerton (talk) 02:47, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, I believe that the Aphrodisias bust is of Theodosius I ("The Great"). Below I'll give my reasoning as for why.

Firstly, The Aphrodisias specimen is clearly devoid of any facial hair, whilst this bust of Theodosius II in the Louvre appears to show him with a mustache, as well as a chinstrap. Aditionally, Theodosius I was not known to have had any facial hair, and he is not depicted as such on any coin portraits of his, nor on his missorium. Secondly, The aformentioned depiction of Theodosius I on his missorium bears many similarities to the Aphrodisias bust, especially in the shape of the subjects chin and jawline, the curls in the hairline, the rather lengthy ears and the fairly short, almost stubby nose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diet Coke Diego (talk • contribs) 04:26, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

These are all convincing enough arguments, but the Wikimedia entry needs it's own sources. Avis11 (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Commons entry for the photo of the bust of Theodosius has this link as its source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diet Coke Diego (talk • contribs) 05:11, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The site doesn't itself give a reliable source explaining why that man is Theodosius. Avis11 (talk) 15:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The source is R. R. R. Smith: "Late Antique Portraits in a Public Context: Honorific Statuary at Aphrodisias in Caria, A.D. 300-600." The Journal of Roman Studies, vol. 89, 1999, pp. 155-189. [6].

Pulcheria?

I am relatively new to Wikipedia so apologies if I am doing this wrong. But shouldn't Pulcheria be listed here? Her article claims she was empress regnant from July to November of 450, after Theodosius II's death and before she married Marcian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maolcraoibhe (talk • contribs) 14:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, she should be. There are multiple sources which list her among the other rulers, even 19th-century ones such as Elton (1825), and she is frequently referred to as a reigning empress, such as (LINK REMOVE FOR COPYLINK VIO); "Pulcheria was virtually sole empress for a month-long interregnum". She used to be in the list, don't know why she was removed but I've added her back in. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Why? The title 'Augusta' which she gained in 414 was but an honorific, and being a de facto ruler tells nothing about her being a de iure empress. I seldom find her in lists of Roman emperors. Avis11 (talk) 14:07, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Regardless if one considers Pulcheria to be a co-ruler of Marcian or Theodosius II, she was the de facto and (arguably?) de jure ruler of the eastern empire for a month following the death of Theodosius II. She does appear in some lists, but without concrete lists being cited for inclusion/non-inclusion of emperors across the board, I don't think the argument that she appears in few lists really holds up. There are a lot of lists that exclude emperors like Philip II, Saloninus, Maxentius and Vetranio. Some of the usurpers-turned-emperors in this list, such as Eugenius and Joannes seem to be very rarely included as well. Some co-rulers in the list (i.e. Victor and Marcus (Basiliscus's son)) are also typically left out. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Little as I know about her person specifically, I was always under the impression that she just ruled informally during some sort of interregnum, rather than becoming nominal head of state. Wasn't Irene the first to hold the office? Avis11 (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Define: "je jure empress" and "nominal head of state". GPinkerton (talk) 20:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

The terms mean what they convey at face value... I'm not sure what else you can come up with. An emperor was de jure or nominal head of state of the Roman empire. Her exercise of power does not necessarily make her nominal head of state, i.e. empress (no more than Aetius or Ricimer). Avis11 (talk) 00:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know much about her specifically either, but I do think my point still stands; she is featured in some lists. The list already includes male rulers who are rarely listed (i.e. Vetranio, Eugenius, Joannes) and pretty much never listed (Victor, Marcus). She was the head of the Theodosian dynasty, augusta and the former guardian/regent of her brother; as far as I understand she does appear to have held supreme power in the east. Marcian only became emperor through marrying Pulcheria; this appears to be similar to the later and complicated co-regencies of Zoë, Romanos III, Michael IV, Michael V, Theodora III and Constantine IX. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:16, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but I'm increasingly sceptical of this. All your examples are men, and Vetranio, for instance, was recognized by the only 'legitimate' emperor, Constantius II, so there's no question about his own legitimacy. Your own source – "Pulcheria was virtually sole empress for a month-long interregnum" – undermines your argument. An interregnum precludes any idea of Pulcheria being empress regnant, and the word "virtually" suggests that she was empress in all but name... and if she wasn't empress in name then she wasn't empress at all. Having supreme power says nothing about her nominal position (Aetius and Ricimer weren't emperors). The title augusta is an empty feminine honorific with no nominal authority attached, and her marriage was just a political move to give Marcian informal dynastic legitimacy. I have seen not one list which includes Pulcheria as an equal to, say, Diocletian. Avis11 (talk) 00:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

What I was getting at is that regardless of authority, the argument that Pulcheria does not appear in a majority of lists does not hold up if the same inclusion criteria is not applied to men who are included. Essentially I believe that it's sexist unless emperors who also do not appear in a majority of lists (or even any lists outside Wikipedia, which as I pointed out is the case for some of them) are also removed. If "appears in most lists of emperors" is the inclusion criteria it should be consistently applied. I did show one example of a list, granted it's a poor example since it's from 1825. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I think appearance in lists is not the best of criteria. I think this list should be left for all the men to have been emperor or co-emperor, and the handful of women that ruled as empress in their own right for a significant time. Whether Pulcheria should be included is a question similar to whether Ariadne should be, or Helena. Probably not, ultimately. I have argued before that it would be nice to have a list where augusti, caesares, and augustae could all be arrayed together, perhaps together with some of the more substantial "usurpers". I think the desire to include Pulcheria is a horror vacui, and part of a drive to account for the month or so when there was only one augustus (Valentinian III) and no emperor at Constantinople for the first time in ages - but there's no need to fill a "head of state" box for every day that passed in the Roman empire. There weren't any augusti at all between spring 337 and the acclamation of his sons as augusti in September that year. Does that mean there was a reign of the augusta Constantina? Probably not. GPinkerton (talk) 20:59, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I would also like the type of list that you're describing but I think that it agains raises the issue of whether the list on Wikipedia should diverge to such an extent from other lists of emperors. To make myself extra clear, I'm for excluding Pulcheria as long as there are clear criteria for inclusion/exclusion that are applied consistently (and I think I've argued sufficiently that there aren't at the moment). Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Required Reading:
  • Holum, Kenneth G. (1989). "Chapter Three. Aelia Pulcheria Augusta". Theodosian Empresses: Women and Imperial Dominion in Late Antiquity. Transformation of the Classical Heritage, 3. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 79–111. ISBN 978-0-520-90970-0.
  • Burgess, Richard W. (1994-01-01). "The Accession of Marcian in the Light of Chalcedonian Apologetic and Monophysite Polemic". Byzantinische Zeitschrift. 86–87 (1): 47–68. doi:10.1515/byzs.1994.86-87.1.47. ISSN 0007-7704.

Burgess concludes:

Far from being a proto-Irene, one of the first 'Byzantine empresses', as Holum would have us believe, Pulcheria was manipulated and sacrificed to the whims of a man who held much greater power and influence than she, even though she was an Augusta, a title replete with ceremonial awe but invested with little actual power when put to the test. She could be a power behind the throne and influence her brother and sisters, but that power died with Theodosius. On her own, she had few means to control events. Her greatest achievement, the convoking of the Council of Chalcedon, took place only because of what she was by birth, a female of the Theodosian dynasty. She was, in reality, one of the last of the Roman aristocratic wives and daughters, mere tools in the dynastic plans of the men who married them and gave them away.

The idea that Marcian only became emperor through marrying Pulcheria is not correct. Marcian became emperor by virtue of his acclamatio and coronation at the Hebdomon and by vote of the Senate. Since there was no augustus to invest him with the purple (Valeninian III was, improperly, not consulted), he probably put it on himself. It is also possible that he was crowned again by the Patriarch at Hagia Sophia, as was Leo I, or appeared in the Hippodrome, as did Anastasius. The reason for the marriage, according to Burgess, was the unification of the new emperor's family with the Valentinianic-Theodosian dynasty to which Valentinian III belonged, to forestall the likelihood that Valentinian would have nominated Olybrius as his eastern colleague, just as Gratian had nominated Theodosius I and Theodosius II has nominated Valentinian III. Pulcheria and Marcian may well have been married only after the acclamation of Marcian. Burgess argues Aspar arranged the whole thing, that Marcian and Pulcheria were both pawns of his, and that the wedding may have been after the beginning of Marcian's reign. Holum writes the opposite. GPinkerton (talk) 15:09, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

This is a significantly stronger argument against Pulcheria's inclusion than her absence in most lists of emperors. I concede that I was probably mistaken on just how far-reaching Pulcheria's authority was. I think my point still stands that if she's not included some of the more ephemeral male rulers should also be removed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing for the list

I have made the columns and column widths consistent from section to section and in doing that I can see that there are some holes in the data. I am willing to put time into fixing that, but after checking the names in this list against the names in the list from De Imperatoribus Romanis (direct link), I can see that there are a lot of differences. Most significantly, the list at that website has an additional 92 names that do not appear on the wikipedia list. The wikipedia list also has another 22 names that do not appear on the DIR list. I am not going to remove those now because I assume they will be found in other reliable sources and I think wikipedia policy requires us to include any name that is found in any reliable source. However, I presume many of the sources listed in the Sources List for discussions section above are so outdated that they are no longer considered reliable. Does anyone have thoughts on which sources we should be using (or not using) for a comprehensive wikipedia list? AmateurEditor (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

This list needs a bit of a reshuffle. A "list of Roman emperors" on Wikipedia should follow what other lists include and don't include (i.e. some usurpers like Eugenius, included here, are typically omitted). I have been planning on working on this but have not had the time yet. The DIR list is far too inclusive to use as a guideline, most published lists in academia omit many of the pretenders and usurpers included in that list. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we must base the list entirely on reliable sources, rather than creating our own OR criteria for inclusion. My reading of NPOV policy at WP:PROPORTION, WP:FALSEBALANCE, and WP:BALANCE is that, if there is no consensus on a point of fact, then we are to include all significant (non-fringe) views. I assume that means we would include in this list any individual that any reliable source includes as an emperor, which would make this list a superset of its sources. But if just one source includes an individual and every other source does not, we would have to indicate that somehow to avoid giving undue weight to that assertion. I am not sure what the best way to do that would be, but a comment in one of the columns and a color difference might be enough. Or the unusual entries might be segregated into a separate list a the bottom, or something. I would rather us have this discussion and reach a consensus before people spend time and effort filling out the list. AmateurEditor (talk) 04:23, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I have looked on a lot of lists, and will look on a lot more, but there does seem to, broadly speaking, be a consensus for which emperors to include and which not to in most cases. If 20 lists include an emperor, we can pretty confidently say that this emperor should be included, if the same 20 lists omit a figure, we can pretty confidently say that this figure should be excluded. The DIR list includes several pretenders and usurpers that are not included in any other list - DIR is a good resource when it comes to information on these figures, but its list of emperors should not be followed as the standard accepted sequence of rulers. I think we can both agree that the current list is problematic. There are enough lists in RS to establish which emperors should be included and excluded, but they have not been followed in the current iteration of the list here. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:22, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

If you share those lists, I can start to figure it out. I haven't looked at any book lists yet, but I have checked the following websites:

1. http://www.roman-emperors.org/impindex.htm (ends at 1453; 92 additional names versus wikipedia)
2. https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/roru/hd_roru.htm (ends at 518; 15 additional names versus wikipedia)
3. https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/list-of-roman-emperors/ (ends at 668; 8 additional names versus wikipedia)
4. https://www.ostia-antica.org/dict/topics/emperors.htm (ends at 602; 7 additional names versus wikipedia)
5. https://www.britannica.com/topic/list-of-Roman-emperors-2043294 (ends at 491; 3 additional names versus wikipedia)
6. https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/Roman_Emperor/ (ends at 337; 1 additional name versus wikipedia)

AmateurEditor (talk) 00:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

You've found a lot of the same lists. I'm working on a List of Roman emperors that follows RS lists here (inclusion criterion essentially being that the emperor is listed in more than one list, which I think is better than us as Wikipedians arbitrarily deciding which emperors were legitimate), based on the lists by Encyclopedia Britannica, Ostia Antica, Livius, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, as well as lists published in Levick (2000), Moxom (2011), Rutherford (2004) and Craven (2019). Right now I've disregarded the DIR list because it's different from the rest (and appears to differentiate between legitimate emperors and usurpers anyway though indentation and placing them in the same entries - I think you see what I mean). Let me know what you think and if you think there should be more lists used as references. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:36, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree Wikipedians arbitrarily deciding which emperors were legitimate would not be a great idea. But in the section Legitimacy a well thought out rationale is given for which claimant to include and which to exclude. So it seems to me that the choices for this list are not arbitrary. If we add/remove emperors from the list for reasons other than those listed in the Legitimacy section, we need to clearly communicate those reasons. (Or risk making arbitrary decisions ourselves). DutchHoratius (talk) 08:27, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that the list as it stands is arbitrary. As I brought up above, Nepotianus is an example of an emperor that checks all the criteria for legitimacy but isn't included here because he is not included in other lists. Other figures that are not included in other lists, such as Victor (Magnus Maximus's co-emperor) and Marcus (Basiliscus's co-emperor) are included here without comment. We cannot decide our own criteria for legitimacy since Wikipedia should avoid WP:OR - the best and easiest way to comply with that policy is to just follow how other lists of Roman emperors in reliable sources (WP:RS) do it. The list will not be that fundamentally different from what we have here (some emperors added, some removed) but it will comply much better with Wikipedia policy and better reflect the current understanding in academia as to which figures ought to be counted as "legitimate" Roman emperors. If I personally were to create a "correct" list of legitimate emperors I would include figures like Nepotianus and Stephen Lekapenos, who ruled as fully legitimate senior emperors for short periods, but no other list of emperors does that so they shouldn't be in this one. Ichthyovenator (talk) 08:55, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I understand your point about WP:OR, but are we not making a choice anyway? All the lists include or exclude emperors based on a set of criteria. Even if we select emperors based on being included in a majority of lists, we are still making a choice to follow the criteria of those lists, against the criteria of the minority. As the definition of an emperor is not crystal clear, different criteria will be used. That is why there are different lists in the first place. And thus whatever we do, we will be making a choice. Now to cut a long story short: No objection to your proposal. I think if the list can be improved, that is only for the better. My point is only that we need to clearly explain in the article how our list came about. For the reader it is important to know why names are or are not included. DutchHoratius (talk) 11:16, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I understand your point as well. Roman emperors present a problem that most other lists of rulers do not - there are for instance no real disagreements to be had about who should be included in the list of kings of Babylon or the list of kings of Greece because in those cases we do have pretty clear understandings of legitimacy and every single source agrees on who should and should not be listed. We cannot define our own criteria for what makes a legitimate emperor, I think you can agree that that would be WP:OR. Besides, any definition would have problems - Gordian I and Gordian II were technically usurpers, who only held some land in Africa and were in opposition to whoever was governing in Rome at the time. By any real definition of legitimacy, they would not be included in the list. However, they are included in most published lists of emperors elsewhere, so this list devolves to recognizing those listed in other lists. The same goes for other usurpers that are often included in lists (Magnentius for instance).

I've tried to be very clear in my working draft (in the notes) about why certain emperors are included and others are exluded, based on several lists of emperors in published RS and IMO that's the way it should go. Most published lists broadly agree with each other, with there only really being a handful of figures that are in contention. Following other lists is a choice but I don't think it goes against WP:OR. The list can contain a (sourced) discussion about what historians consider as defining a legitimate emperor, but I don't think we can go ahead and apply those criteria ourselves to pick and choose who to include and who not to. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:36, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Ichthyovenator, I see what you mean about usurpers being included in the DIR list. When I exclude those, most of the discrepancies go away. I think we should use that list as one of the reliable sources, based on the authors[7] and other reliable sources that reference it.[8] It's easy enough to ignore the entries indicated as usurpers in the list. I have completed a survey of the following website and book sources:

roman-emperors.org

Livius.org

ostia-antica.org

metmuseum.org

britannica.com

ancient.eu

Craven; The Imperial Families of Ancient Rome

Elton; A History of the Roman Emperors From the Accession of Augustus to the Fall of the Last Constantine

Gordon; Illustrated Introduction to Latin Epigraphy

Cooley; The Cambridge Manuel of Latin Epigraphy

Rutherford; Classical Literature A Concise History

Levick; The Government of the Roman Empire A Sourcebook

Moxom; From Jerusalem to Nicea The Church in the First Three Centuries

Removing all entries identified by a source as an unsuccessful usurper, I am left with the following entries missing from the wikipedia list (the number of sources for the entry is in parentheses):

Julius Caesar (3: Craven, Livius.org, Rutherford)

Britannicus (1: Craven)

Piso/Galba II (1: Craven)

Julius Sabinus (1: Livius.org)

Lucius Aelius (1: Livius.org)

Zenobia [Palmyrene Empire] (1: Craven)

Vaballathus [Palmyrene Empire] (1: Craven)

Odenathus (1: metmuseum.org)

Crispus (1: ostia-antica.org)

Dalmatius (1: ostia-antica.org)

Gallus (3: ostia-antica.org, britannica.com, Rutherford)

Theodora II (1: Elton)

Eudocia (1: Elton)

Baldwin I [Latin Empire] (1: Elton)

Henry [Latin Empire] (1: Elton)

Peter of Courtenay [Latin Empire] (1: Elton)

Robert of Courtenay [Latin Empire] (1: Elton)

Baldwin II [Latin Empire] (1: Elton)

John Paleologus I (1: Elton)

Manuel Paleologus (1: Elton)

John Paleologus II (1: Elton)

I don't think wikipedia policy allows us to exclude entries based on them being found in just one reliable source list. A reliable source is a reliable source, and we are supposed to be comprehensive of what is found in all reliable sources on a given topic. Maybe the Elton list should no longer be considered an reliable source because it was published in 1825. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC) Or maybe we should just be reflecting what is found in all reliable sources regardless of the contradictions, warts and all. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@AmateurEditor: There are some other sources I reference in the draft I have as well, but I think we have the same conclusions about which emperors are typically included, excluded and which end up in a grey area. I agree that a reliable source is a reliable source and that all sources should be taken into account, but there has to be some sort of consensus approach as well. I think the DIR list can be used as one of the lists - it is a reliable source - but we also have to take omissions into account. To express what I think in the clearest terms possible, an example: Piso/Galba II (aka. Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi Licinianus) is only included by Craven. While Craven is a reliable source, all other lists omit Piso/Galba II - if included in our list, I would interpret that as going against standard historiographical practice and against the consensus. A figure like Gallus, or even Julius Caesar, is more in the grey area since multiple reliable sources include them. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I've postponed working on my draft since I think it might be worthwile coming up with concrete inclusion criteria first. I've collected together the sources and made a series of tables over which emperors are included in which lists - you're welcome to take a look here (and add to it if you want). I'm not sure what the best criteria for inclusion would be but I do not think including emperors who only appear in a single list is the way to go. I would argue that including a figure in a list because they are included by one author, while omitted by nine others, is dangerously close to WP:FRINGE (obviously that policy is not applicable here, but I think you can see my concern). Omission of figures by an author is just as strong a stand as inclusion, and should be taken into account. Including someone like Piso/Galba II would be going against mainstream current academic historiography, as he is not typically regarded as an emperor. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

• The old system of 5 columns – portrait, name, reign, succession, and miscellaneous life details – was definitely better: it was more compact, allowed for more information to be displayed in each box, and did not contain empty holes that will probably never be filled anyway (like birth dates). A good source not mentioned here is Kienast's Romische Kaisertabelle, which can be downloaded for free, though it is in German and ends with the death of Theodosius in 395. Caesars can be omitted without much question.

  Looking at each and every source to assess the 'legitimacy' of emperors is a futile and hopeless exercise. The usurper question is probably not that difficult to begin with. For the pre-476 period I only see Magnentius, Nepotianus, and Eugenius as being in the grey area. Romulus Augustulus is always listed as emperor by historical convention, and his position was more or less the same as (say) Basiliscus and Marcus, and so those two should probably be classed as emperors too. Avilich (talk) 00:39, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator:, I agree with your concern about an entry that is included in one reliable source and excluded in nine others being included in the same way as an entry that is found in all 10 sources. I also agree that we should be following what the reliable sources do and following wikipedia policy as best we can. So that we are on the same page, here is the policy language I think is relevant, with underlines added for your convenience:

Per WP:LISTCRITERIA, "Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources.".

Per WP:STANDALONE, "Being articles, stand-alone lists are subject to Wikipedia's content policies, such as verifiability, no original research, neutral point of view, and what Wikipedia is not, as well as the notability guidelines."

WP:NPOV says "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

WP:NPOV#Due and undue weight distinguishes views into three categories: "majority" views, "significant minority" views, and "fringe" views. I don't think any of these sources contain fringe views, which are things like "flat earth theory" and "moon landing conspiracy theory". I think we are only dealing with majority versus significant minority views.

I am saying that we need to include both the majority views (where, for example, 9 out of 10 reliable sources include the entry) and the significant minority views (where 1 out of 10 reliable sources include the entry). Unless we are going to dismiss a source as unreliable, its "significant minority" entries should be included, but in a way that clearly distinguishes them from majority view entries. This could be done with any number of formatting differences and/or explicit language to that effect (Note that MOS:COLOR says "Ensure that color is not the only method used to communicate important information. Especially, do not use colored text or background unless its status is also indicated using another method, such as an accessible symbol matched to a legend, or footnote labels. Otherwise, blind users or readers accessing Wikipedia through a printout or device without a color screen will not receive that information."). AmateurEditor (talk) 03:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Avilich:, per MOS:LISTORG, "Lists should never contain "Unsorted" or "Miscellaneous" headings, as all items worthy of inclusion in the list can be sorted by some criteria, although it is entirely possible that the formatting of the list would need to be revamped to include all appropriate items. Not-yet-sorted items may be included on the list's talk page while their categorization is determined." The list width should now be dynamic to your browser window, so you can view it more compactly that way. There was not a consistent set of headings between all the subsections of the list before and I don't think that adding one to make them all consistent is worse than before. I also don't think we should include a lot of information in each box, since that is what the main article for each entry will provide (Per MOS:LONGSEQ, "Keep lists and tables as short as feasible for their purpose and scope: material within a list should relate to the article topic without going into unnecessary detail; and statistical data kept to a minimum per policy."). And I am not concerned about some boxes remaining empty if there is no reliable source for a particular birth date, for example. That there is no reliable source for that information can itself be interesting to the reader (and there is always the possibility that additional information could come to light in the future). AmateurEditor (talk) 03:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@AmateurEditor: Yes, I think we see the same problems with the list as it is right now and we agree that something has to be done in order to make it more in-line with Wikipedia policy, and with the reliable sources we have available to us. The problem with a list of Roman emperors in regards to WP:LISTCRITERIA is that none of the lists in RS make clear what their inclusion criteria are. You and me both seem to agree that the inclusion criteria here should be that we follow what the reliable sources do (in my mind the only way to achieve clear and unambiguous inclusion criteria since several of the figures typically included - see the Gordians or Magnentius - are included out of convention rather than legitimacy of extent of rule), but we seem to disagree on what that practically means. I think an emperor's presence in at least three lists is the best option (since it establishes that several researchers concur on their inclusion), you think an emperor's inclusion in just one list warrants their inclusion here. Neither opinion is objectively wrong but we can't have both.

Yeah, I don't think any of the sources can be described as "fringe" either - what I meant to convey was that the inclusion of someone like Piso/Galba II is clearly a minority opinion (only Craven does this). I don't think the inclusion of someone like Piso/Galba II represents a "significant view" per WP:NPOV, the clear consensus based on the other lists appear to be that he should not be included. Including figures who are only present in one list also presents other problems; DIR includes Celsus and Saturninus, who are fictional and never existed, and (jumping forwards to Byzantium) Mango includes a "Heraclius III", who appears to be made-up or a mistake. By the same logic as including other emperors that only appear in a single list, we would not be able to omit those. It is my belief that if we include every emperor in every list, even only a single author has deemed them necessary to include, we will end up with a Frankensteinian and unorthodox list that conflicts with all other lists of emperors. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ichthyovenator: I think we are very near agreement and the remaining issue is only what to do with names found in a small minority of sources, such as just one or two sources. I think we agree that they should not be included in the same way that the consensus emperors are included, but rather than exclude them entirely, I think we need to include them with some kind of labeling information that the entry is not commonly identified as an emperor. I don't think we should be creating an "orthodox" list when there is real variation in our reliable sources. The article should instead reflect that variation in an appropriate way. I read NPOV "significant view" to be any majority or minority view from a reliable source that is non-fringe (with "fringe" being pretty extreme stuff like flat earth theory), rather than being restricted just to "consensus" views (which I read as "majority" views). About your examples, I think wikipedia gives us the leeway as editors to exclude names identified as non-emperors in a source list from this list as irrelevant and to exclude obvious errors in a source list from this list as against common sense (WP:LISTCRITERIA says "Criteria for inclusion should factor in encyclopedic and topical relevance, not just verifiable existence." and "... so common sense is required in establishing criteria for a list."). The DIR list does include Celsus and Saturninus, but if you click on those name you are taken to a section called "6. Fictitious usurpers: Trebellianus, Celsus and Saturninus", so I don't think they would qualify for this list even if using DIR as our only source.

@AmateurEditor: Yes. One obvious issue with my current approach is that things will get messy with the publication of new lists in reliable sources, which would force us to look over and cross-reference with previous sources concerning on which emperors are included where. I am still not sure if I view an emperor appearing in a single list as a "significant minority view" - see for instance Lucius Mussius Aemilianus, who is included by DIR but omitted by all of the 17 other lists I found covering the Crisis of the Third Century. I still favor a "multiple source includes this figure" approach, but I think that maybe we should get more people to weigh in on the issue.

If we were to include these figures that do not have as much acceptance as the others, the big issue would of course be how to indicate that. The List of popes uses dark grey background color and italics rather than bold text for antipopes, but as you mentioned earlier, color is not enough per WP policy. It is worth mentioning that both the German and Finnish versions of this list seem to follow your ideal approach, but they also differentiate with color. Craven (2019) employs a somewhat similar approach in his list in his book, where usurpers are included, but indicated with dark grey, rather than black, text and italics. There would also need to be some form of system that allows for differentiation of usurpers (such as Domitius Alexander), legitimate rulers with limited acceptance as such in the sources (such as Nepotian or Silbannacus) and junior co-rulers who were not technically emperors but are sometimes included in lists (Constantius Gallus, Crispus, Valerian II, Licinius II etc.). Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Avilich: I agree that the old format was better. The biggest issue with this list is that it needs to have clear inclusion criteria per WP:LISTCRITERIA and they can't be made up by us per WP:OR. IMO the best way to establish clear inclusion criteria is to use the inclusion and omission of emperors in lists published in reliable sources as the inclusion criterion - that's perfectly in-line with Wikipedia policy and far better than what we have now. Besides, if we were to establish our own criteria it would be impossible to get something matching a "normal" list of emperors, where many emperors tend to be listed by convention rather than because they were "legitimate" (i.e. Romulus Augustulus as you say, Magnentius, Gordian I and II, etc.). Some Caesars are included in several reliable sources, notably Gallus, and should thus be included here. Some additional usurpers, most notably the Gallic emperors but also figures like Pacatian, Jotapian and Domitius Alexander, also appear to be included frequently enough in other published lists to warrant their inclusion here. Wikipedia should work of off reliable sources and not be an arbiter of truth. Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Caesars were heirs-apparent, not on equal footing as Augusti, and most sources (I think) don't list Gallus (that wasn't even his formal name) as an 'emperor'. I'm not quite trying to establish 'my own criteria' here. The problem for determining who was 'legitimate' is nonexistent for before 284: whoever the Roman Senate recognized as emperor was legitimate, and everyone else a usurper. I don't think any significant number of sources deviate from this line of thinking. After Diocletian, the Senate was of course irrelevant, so now it's not that simple. Looking at your own list of sources, the only post-284 claimants who seem to be controversial are the three I mentioned previously plus Valerius Valens and Martinian (which I should also have mentioned). So, if one claimant has recognition from at least part of the existing imperial college (Valens and Martinian) or controls vast amounts of territory along with any of the major 'capitals' (Eugenius and Basiliscus), he may be considered 'legitimate', whereas lesser claimants like Calocaerus (334) and Jovinus (411) can safely be omitted from the list. Now, I know this might sound like blatant original research on my part, but I believe this is how to best reconcile the sources available. Domitius Alexander and Domitius Domitianus (for example) are absent more often than not, so I tend to favor their omission here too. Avilich (talk) 14:46, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not disagreeing with you on the role of a Caesar or that they most accurately should not be included, nor am I disagreeing with you in that I too would favor something along your line of thinking if I were to create my own list. What I am saying is that unless these criteria are given by a reliable source, which they are not, it's WP:OR and can't be used as a basis for the Wikipedia list. At the same time, we need clear and unambiguous inclusion criteria per WP:LISTCRITERIA. The easiest way to do that, since no source provides any concrete inclusion criteria and instead work off of partly historical convention and partly personal opinion, is to follow other published lists for which emperors to include and which to exclude - per WP policy we should reflect reliable sources, not the true political situation in the Roman Empire.

The situation before 284 is not entirely clear-cut either. A big thing is whether to start the list with Julius Caesar or Augustus; available sources seem pretty divided on that (AFAIK the Romans themselves varied in this as well). There is also Lucius Clodius Macer, who sometimes appears in lists, and notably Clodius Albinus and Pescennius Niger, who are variously either treated as usurpers or included in lists as legitimate emperors (included more often than left out though). There is also the issue of the junior co-Augusti, such as Philip II, Diadumenian, Hostilian etc. The legitimate co-emperor Herennius Etruscus, though included in quite a lot of the lists, is left out more frequently than Niger and Albinus. Postumus, Victorinus and Tetricus of the Gallic Empire appear more often than Philip II and Etruscus. I also have to give a shout-out to Silbannacus, who appears in several of the lists (3/18, a clear minority, but in several different sources nonetheless), who appears to have minted coins in Rome, and thus held the capital, and should thus be included based on your ideas for criteria. Nepotian is a similar case.

Domitius Domitianus and Domitius Alexander are left out more often than left in, yes, but they are still listed in a significant enough number of lists, about as often as Martinian, Valerius Valens, Vetranio, Victor and Basiliscus. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

AmateurEditor: of course, what I labeled as 'miscellaneous' isn't really miscellaneous, just extra life details which would be of interest to the general reader. Indeed, Life details is how the column was labeled previously. There is absolutely no need to have a column dedicated solely to birth date and birth place. This cannot be more complicated than it needs to be, and no more than 5 columns are necessary. Avilich (talk) 14:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Avilich, the "Birth" column is pretty un-objectionable information for a list in my view, and existed in some sections prior to my making all the sections consistent with one another (per MOS:LISTFORMAT, "List items should be formatted consistently in a list. Unless there is a good reason to use different list types in the same page, consistency throughout an article is also desirable."), but if you want to combine that information into another column I have no problem with that. The "Life details" column was not in all sections prior and only ever contained death details, so it seemed better to use the more accurate "Death" header, which was also a pre-existing column used in just some sections. I don't see any requirement about limiting the number of columns to 5 and I assume that is just your personal preference. Personally, I have no preference for the number of columns but I do prefer that the columns be chronological from left to right (ignoring the image and name columns) and I think that a broad "Life details" column is a bad idea because it will be an open invitation to editors to add all sorts of "unnecessary details" (in the language of MOS:LONGSEQ) that they consider to be interesting but that are actually better left to the individual emperor-specific articles. By the way, I think I misread the meaning of "heading" at MOS:LISTORG ("Lists should never contain "Unsorted" or "Miscellaneous" headings, ..."). Re-reading it, that appears to relate to section headings, rather than table columns, which have "headers" instead of "headings". I think it is saying that we should not have sections of miscellaneous/unsorted entries separated from the rest of the sorted/organized entries, which we do not have in this article; not having a general "Life details" column would instead be to avoid the "unnecessary detail" mentioned at MOS:LONGSEQ. AmateurEditor (talk) 20:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Break - further discussion

In order to clear this discussion up and get some order, and hopefully get more people weighing in, this is the options I see going forwards. Neither is objectively wrong, but the current list requires overhaul in sourcing and in its inclusion criteria (clear criteria, based in reliable sources, are needed per WP:LISTCRITERIA) - which at this time appears to be WP:OR (as its inclusions, omissions and reasoning are not referenced to any reliable source). A list of Roman emperors is not just a matter of presenting the "truth" (as it would be for a list of British monarchs or Babylonian monarchs for example - where every list in existence is in agreement and the legitimacy of monarchs is more clear - almost every published list of Roman emperors is different in some regard. For reference I put together these tables for which figures are included in lists of emperors by various authors. Here's the ideas for approaches:

• Option 1 - Include everything: We could disregard what the sources do, as in many cases inclusion/omission appears somewhat arbitrary, and instead simply include every single figure who claimed the titles Augustus or Caesar, with some way of distinguishing unsuccessful usurpers and successful rulers. A problem with a "hyper-inclusive" list would of course be that it would be highly unorthodox.
• Option 2 - Include based on single list: Include figures if they are included in at least one list published in a reliable source, with some formatting way of differentiating rulers with a lot of acceptance and little acceptance in the sources. Will force the inclusion of a lot of figures not typically included, including many minor usurpers and figures who never claimed to be emperor. Can however be argued to best accord with WP:NPOV, which says to include all significant views published in reliable sources without editorial bias.
• Option 3 - Include based on several lists: Include figures if they appear in several (i.e. 3 or more) lists published in reliable sources, indicating wider recognition of this figure as an emperor. A cut-off of 3 lists may seem arbitrary, and the publication of more lists in the future might necessitate changes.
• Option 4 - Include based on majority of lists: Include figures if they appear in a majority of published lists in reliable sources, indicating consensus that they should be included. This option is not without problems and would force the exclusion of several legitimate emperors who have appeared in this list for years - such as Philip II and Herennius Etruscus, whereas usurpers such as Pescennius Niger and Clodius Albinus (who do appear in a majority of lists) would remain.
• Option 5 - Include based on all lists: Include a figure only if they appear in every single list of emperors in reliable sources, indicating complete consensus. This approach increases the problems of Option 4, and would force the omission of several figures commonly listed, such as Gordian I, Gordian II, Lucius Verus and Geta.
• Other options; there is the option of including only "legitimate emperors", but what that means is arbitrary. Controlling Rome does not work as a criterion after the Tetrarchy, or even before (see the Gordians, Pescennius Niger, Clodius Albinus etc.).

I personally favor Option 3. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. Among the lists discussed, I think roman-emperors.org, ostia-antica.org, worldhistory.org (previously ancient.eu) are not reliable sources and should be discounted. I have reservations for the others too, eg. Livius.org, metmuseum.org, britannica.com, which for me don't have enough authority for this. I may come back on the subject tomorrow. T8612 (talk) 02:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

It's fair to discuss the reliability of the sources in question but I think you have to provide your rationale if you're going to dismiss them - as far as I'm aware WP quite frequently uses, for instance, Britannica, Livius and DIR as sources in articles. Ichthyovenator (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The author of this Britannica page is not an academic. I use Livius regularly, but I don't cite it because it is not peer-reviewed content. Same all the other lists. I think that saying whether someone was emperor or not cannot be proved with any of the lists cited and I oppose making the Wikipedia list from them. T8612 (talk) 10:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, that comment isn't clear to me: Naomi Blumberg is the author of which Britannica page? Andrew Dalby 13:47, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this is the only name that appears on the page. T8612 (talk) 14:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@T8612: Which page? (The link you gave just above was to her biography, not to an encylopedia page.) Andrew Dalby 13:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, please imagine I never pinged you. I see it now, it's in that great big table. I didn't see it there the first time. Andrew Dalby 13:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I imagine you at least find (some of) the books I referenced to be reliable sources? If Britannica and Livius do not hold up as sources I imagine a lot of articles at GA, or even FA, level will be in need of revision. There's of course also the issue that if not based on something like this, what would we base the list of? We cannot make up our own criteria for inclusion and omission. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

T8612's comment isn't clear to me: Naomi Blumberg is the author of which Britannica page? [I've got it now.]

In general, there's no requirement for authors that we cite to be academics. Britannica is a tertiary source and if we cite it for a fact in an article aiming for GA or FA, the citation should be replaced by something better. Livius is not peer-reviewed (I believe); again, if it's cited in an article aiming for GA or FA, the citation should be replaced by something better. But the question here and now is quite different, and it isn't a matter of reliable sources: what are Britannica's criteria for inclusion in the list of Roman emperors? Ditto for Livius. Ditto for those other lists if we want to take account of them. Are those good criteria for us too, or should we aim at something different? Andrew Dalby 14:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Britannica can be used as RS on WP, but I would not base an entire list like this one on a semi-anonymous article with no explanation on the methodology. I would rather use individual articles from Britannica (with an identified author), the Realencyclopadie, or other standardised works (perhaps the Cambridge Ancient History could be used too). T8612 (talk) 14:31, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the entire list should be based on Britannica's list alone and that there is no explanation of methodology is the main issue with every list - I don't think there is a published list of emperors in a reliable source that explains in detail why it includes/excludes certain figures. Craven (2019) sort of does but his list is not very conventional. The idea I had was to look at as many lists as we can find and compare them to see how they handle it. I don't see how we can fulfill WP:LISTCRITERIA otherwise (unless we just include everything) since no source makes the criteria separating a legitimate emperor from an usurper perfectly clear, or why certain junior rulers are counted as emperors and others are not. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. Option 3 seems most reasonable to me, but I have no strong preference. Every option has pros and cons, but as long as we make clear in the final article which rationale we use, any option would be fine with me. DutchHoratius (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I would go for option 1. There is no definitive list now in existence nor are there any agreed criteria for inclusion in modern scholarship. When I'm looking these things up I'd find it very useful to have a list of every single figure who claimed the titles Augustus or Caesar, with some way of distinguishing unsuccessful usurpers and successful rulers. A note against the usurpers and failures should be fine. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I can also see the merits of Option 1, it is what the German and Finnish lists appear to be doing, but if we were to go with Option 1 we would need a good way to diffentiate Augusti, Caesares and claimants with limited recognition. I'd also be worried about the massive size the list is going to reach, it's already quite massive since it includes everyone from 27 BC to 1453. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the list should end in 476. T8612 (talk) 14:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Even if we were to separate Byzantines and Romans, 476 is far from an universally agreed cut-off point - Zeno (491), Anastasius I (518), Maurice (602) or even someone later are equally valid. This is a big issue with separating the list - regardless I think this is a separate discussion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Reminder that there is a long-neglected list of Roman usurpers which should be used for controversial entries, so option 1 is not a good idea. Comparing tons of different lists is a perennially difficult problem and no one will get anywhere by doing this. We just need a criterion that is more or less compatible with the majority of lists and that produces as little controversy as possible (like being recognized by the Senate, before the Tetrarchy, and so on), and then deal with each controversial entry individually. There is also no good reason to list every single emperor until 1453 when there's a perfectly good list of Byzantine emperors. Avilich (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the logic of what you're saying holds up, but I also think your approach conflicts with what WP:LISTCRITERIA says: "Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed (for example, lists of unusual things or terrorist incidents), it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources given with inline citations for each item." I think this is a pretty clear case of membership criteria in the list being likely to be disputed (that pretty much every published list of emperors is different in some regard is evidence enough for that), which means that inclusion has to be based on reliable sources. I take this as meaning that inclusion in the list has to follow inclusions/exclusions in reliable sources but I'm happy to see any counterarguments since comparing lists is an arduous task (though not impossible, as I have demonstrated). Discussions on whether or not to include the Byzantines have never achieved consensus or have leaned towards including them from what I remember. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Therefore the List of Byzantine Emperors should be a redirect... I also think that the list should end with Romulus/Zeno. I know that the end of the Roman Empire/beginning of the Byzantine Empire is a touchy subject on Wikipedia, but some consistency on the matter is really needed, because WP gives very contradictory information on this topic. This is the most important problem I have seen regarding information provided by WP so far. There may be the possibility of elaborating a WP:policy on this. T8612 (talk) 14:25, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

LISTCRITERIA needn't contradict what I said at all. If 'usurpers' are referred to as such in reliable sources, then they should be included in list of Roman usurpers. They then might simply be omitted from the emperors' list on strength of WP:CONTENTFORK alone, which discourages duplication of content. Thus, the best arrangement IMO is for the emperors' list to feature uncontroversial entries and the usurpers' list the rest. This seems much simpler than weighing the advantages of a morass of 'reliable sources' that contradict each other. Avilich (talk) 15:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This of course creates the problem of what an uncontroversial entry is. There are figures who some regard as legitimate and others regard as usurpers. There are figures that are largely agreed to be usurpers (Niger and Albinus) who nevertheless are typically included in lists and there are figures that are largely agreed to be legitimate (Herennius Etruscus, Philip II, and to a lesser extent even Lucius Verus or Geta) that often, or sometimes, get omitted, which to me seems to lead to the same issue of weighing contradictory reliable sources. If inclusion is supported by references to reliable sources referring to an emperor as an "emperor" rather than "usurper" we can essentially end up with Option 2 above since you will be able to find reliable sources justifying the inclusion of certain non-typical figures. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Herennius, Philip, Verus and Geta are all definitely 'legitimate', and their hypothetical omission in some 'reliable sources' is doubtless because of their limited importance rather than actual concerns about their legitimacy. If the problem is classifying what a controversial entry is, then I could divide them into 3 groups.

1. Minor usurpers of little consequence, like Calocaerus and Jovinus.
2. Major regional pretenders without official recognition from the Senate or the rest of the imperial college, like Niger, Albinus, Domitianus, and Firmus.
3. Claimants recognized by at least part of the imperial college (or by the Senate), like Magnentius, Magnus Maximus, and Constantine III.

Dividing into groups helps because we need to be consistent in which criterion to use (WP:LISTCRITERIA). It's also simpler to evaluate the attitude of sources to each of these groups instead of going through every single pretender. I for one think the first two can be readily sent to the usurpers' list. The ones in the third group might be worthy of individual consideration. Avilich (talk) 18:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is why I see Option 1 as the only really sustainable one in the long term. Anything else involves picking and choosing between competing sources that were never intended to rule upon the legitimacy of individual candidates; they can be considered as reliable for an inclusion, but not for an omission or exclusion. Also, for this encyclopedia, I'd like to see a really comprehensive list, including absolutely everyone who is recorded as having claimed the title - for example Silvanus (magister peditum), a very low-grade candidate but whose brief aspirations furnish him with his only real claim to notability. I feel that this approach will not only save endless wrangling but will also give the best results for the encyclopedic reader. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This is the problem I am getting at. If I was to produce an "accurate" list of emperors I would follow your idea for the list, I am not arguing that your approach does not make sense. I am arguing that I do not think it satisfies the WP policies that have been brought up. You say that the first two groups can be sent to the list of usurpers, but that is your opinion. It is an opinion that I would normally agree with, but it seems to be WP:OR to me since it is not based on a source, especially when there are multiple lists that inlcude figures like Niger and Albinus (more than include Philip II or Herennius Etruscus, as I said). I am not arguing that Niger or Albinus are "more legitimate" than Philip II or Herennius Etruscus, I am simply stating the fact that they are included more often based on the lists I found. WP:LISTCRITERIA also includes that inclusion criteria should adhere to what readers would expect to find in the list - if a majority of lists include Niger and Albinus then those are figures that readers would expect to find. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

In many ways, this list is much like the one for Roman consuls: at first glance, it would seem to be a simple & straightforward exercise but once you get into the details all sorts of problems emerge.

One factor that has been overlooked is that we can make an arbitrary definition of what this list includes. We can say it begins with the year 31 BC (date of the Battle of Actium, when many historians consider the Roman Empire to have started), & use that to exclude Julius Caesar. We can say it ends with AD 476 & does not include the emperors based in Constantinople (for those, see the List of Roman Emperors). And it does not include persons who only governed a part of the Empire, e.g. the rulers of the Gallic Empire. Stating this explicitly would allow us to get close to the kind of list people expect to find here, & shuts down any trolls or cranks who insist someone who otherwise fits the criteria be included, say Constantine III. (I note he is currently included, but regardless I have a fondness for the individual since his was one of the first articles I wrote for Wikipedia, IMHO he is considered a usurper. The official lineage [i.e., those recognized by the co-emperor at Constantinople] proceeds Honoratus -- Constantius III -- Valentinian III.) -- llywrch (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, if an over-long article is the problem, we can perfectly well set our own date limits. Formally categorizing all of these individuals as legitimate or not will lead to, literally, endless problems. Listing them all, some as undisputed and universally-agreed rulers of the entire Empire and others as definitely not, with a middle category for disputable cases, would be a lot easier, and adding individual notes on the claims would solve the remaining problems. Option 1 looks best. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we can set our own arbitrary date limit - we would need one reinforced by reliable sources and as has been pointed our here before reliable source vary considerably in the dates they pick. The traditional 476 is not necessarily more commonly used than 491, 602 or even something considerably later. I agree that Option 1 works as an approach, as I pointed out it fits well with how several other language versions do their lists, but we would need to come up with a good formatting way to distinguish unsuccessful claimants and junior rulers from the senior line of emperors (color was not enough per one of the policies). Option 3 would circumvent that problem, but the main problem with Option 3 would be that the list will likely end up looking quite arbitrary in terms of who is included and who is excluded. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Stuffing all usurpers, Roman emperors and Byzantine emperors into a single page will definitely not help readers. You'll never find a common ground between all different 'reliable sources' and Wikipedia guidelines when there's hundreds of individual entries to consider. It's impossible to do this without deviating from at least one reliable source. Just WP:IGNOREALLRULES and find a WP:COMMONSENSE way to distribute the entries across the 3 lists, with as little overlap (WP:CONTENTFORK) as possible. If someone can be reasonably called a 'usurper', put him on list of Roman usurpers. If someone can be called Byzantine, put him on list of Byzantine emperors. The rest belong here. Most people browsing here will want to see only the classical-era emperors anyway. Avilich (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

We can't find a complete common ground but it is possible to create criteria based in reliable sources - all of the five options I listed at first would in my mind work in tandem with the policies brought up. Your approach would be problematic - if everyone who can be called Byzantine should be placed in the list of Byzantine emperors we should cut off the list with Constantine the Great, if people who can reasonable be called usurpers are omitted we will have to leave out several figures that most lists agree should be listed (Niger, Albinus, Gordian I, Gordian II) etc. It is possible to stuff everything into a single page - see the Finnish, German and French lists (French list has a pretty good, though not perfect, way of indicating usurpers). These all exclude the Byzantines but include usurpers (and the Finnish version also includes the Caesares). Achieving common ground between reliable sources could alternatively be to include a figure if a reliable source includes them, which could work with WP:NPOV, or including a figure if several sources include them (which gives more weight to their inclusion). I don't think WP:IGNOREALLRULES should be used here to justify WP:OR in violation of WP:LISTCRITERIA when there are ways to work it out. "Most people browsing here will want to see only the classical-era emperors anyway" is an opinion and not objective fact. I for one like that we have all the emperors in a single list, though I think we could rename it so it matches the List of Roman and Byzantine empresses. The problem with splitting is that we 1) need consensus for splitting the list and 2) we need consensus for which date to use (395, 476, 480, 491, 518, 602, 800 etc.). Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Though arbitrary criteria like dates and locations are fine in Wikipedia, options 2 to 5 would be very unusual. Generally speaking, when we're asking if someone/something belongs in a "List of ... " article, we look at that person/thing. If they're blue-linked, it should be fairly clear from their article; he was elected in 1810, it's a film by X, she was a Nobel laureate. I can't think of any "List of ... " articles whose criterion is that they appear in an RS list. If the issue is how to handle usurpers, is part of the answer that "usurper" itself is an anachronistic term that imposes too much order? Would it be better to mark some as, for example, recognised only in some region or by some forces, or simply as failing to win general recognition? NebY (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd argue that arbitrary dates are not fine without references to reliable sources. If we're going to cut the list of, we'd be marking someone as "the last Roman emperor", which would need considerable RS backing since who that is is controversial. Right now the problem is circumvented by listing everyone up to 1453, which is how it has been handled for years. The issue here, and why I think we either have to 1) include everything or 2) look to reliable sources on who to include (I'm supporting either Option 1 or 3 above), is that every published list of emperors is different and there is disagreement on the status of several figures. In that regard, this list is fairly unique. If we don't reference reliable sources for inclusion/exclusion, we are conducting WP:OR. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing inherently wrong with arbitrary dates (eg "Emperors of the second century AD") if they produce useful articles, and whether they do is an editorial decision, not WP:OR. Neither is it WP:OR to look to reliable histories to decide whether or not to include someone. If good secondary RSs say Claudius was an emperor, he can be included in a list of emperors. What's more, we don't need to use the same source for Claudius as we do for Constantine to justify including them both in a list, as long as each appears in RSs - looking in different RSs isn't WP:OR either, it's how Wikipedia's put together. If RSs disagree about someone's status, we can say so. That's normal too. It's only WP:OR to make our own deductions; for example, we can't claim that Agrippina must have been an emperor because Caratacus paid her respect, instead we would need an RS saying she was an emperor. What would be exceptional for Wikipedia and contrary to practice, if not policy (which is usually the codification of developed practice), would be to rely instead on published lists rather than specific histories. NebY (talk) 16:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to all, but especially to NebY for their particularly wise words. Both the German and French approaches to this list seem good. They include all claimants however unsuccessful, our current option 1, and describe briefly the actual extent of their power. They have decided, presumably by consensus, their limits. I feel that we should do something similar, though I do prefer our approach of including every claimant from Augustus to Constantine XI. Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:SIZERULE article size rule only apply to readable prose, and not lists, so list size is not actually a concern we need to pay attention to. For this reason, and because 1) we've had the Byzantine emperors in this list for years 2) there is no universally agreed date where the Roman-Byzantine transition happens and every date has its fair share of problems 3) a "List of Roman emperors" should reasonably contain every emperor of the Romans, I also support going all the way to Constantine XI (though I think we could rename the list to "List of Roman and Byzantine emperors", as has been done for the List of Roman and Byzantine empresses and merge the List of Byzantine emperors here). I also agree that there is merit in what NebY says, and since any usurper or emperor will probably have secondary RSs that refer to him as an emperor, I am not opposed to Option 1. With arbitrary dates being WP:OR I was mainly referring to the end date, since picking an end date before 1453 would be picking a last Roman emperor that is not Constantine XI and would need RSs to back up that decision since there is controversy in the sources on this point. I opted for relying on published lists since they presented a quick way to see which emperors are typically listed in RSs - i.e. WP:LISTCRITERIA stating that lists should include what readers expect to find, but I can also see the problems with that approach. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:59, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Strongly oppose merging both lists. Just add a remark at the bottom of the Roman list saying that it continues in the Byzantine list. By doing so, you're not actually picking an arbitrary date for a 'Roman-Byzantine transition', it simply means you're compartmentalizing the entries for convenience, in the same way the term 'Byzantine' itself was coined for historical convenience. The so-called arbitrariness of a non-1453 finishing date is a red herring: using two pages to list Roman emperors instead of one doesn't mean Wikipedia is taking a position on what makes an emperor 'Roman' – so long as a proper clarification is made. Avilich (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I think at the very least we should be consistent in our approach. If there is a single list of consorts there should be a single list of emperors, if there are two lists of emperors there should be two lists of consorts. If this list repeats the content of the list of Byzantine emperors in full, they should be merged etc. I think you can agree with that sentiment. As I've mentioned, previous discussions on splitting the list have either not reached a consensus or been skewed towards not splitting. If we split, we would also need to agree on where to split. The date is arbitrary because different authors (of those who do split) use different dates, 476 works quite poorly because of Julius Nepos (480) and because of Zeno ruling until 491, and there are also issues to consider with other potential dates, such as 518, 602 or 800/802 - regardless of the approach there will also be overlap between the lists since a list of Byzantine emperors has to begin with Constantine I (since all of them do). I don't see how picking a date, and a final figure who is listed in the "list of Roman emperors" is not picking a final person who is more of a Roman emperor than anyone who comes after. I feel like this could also be construed as a case where there is risk of going against WP:NPOV. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I do think the list of Empresses should be split as well. Where are the previous discussions you mention? I think there is ground for a new discussion on this and that whatever the date chosen for the split, it would apply to all the articles dealing with the Roman and Byzantine empires. As I said above, there is a lot of inconsistency on Wikipedia regarding this. T8612 (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The last point it was discussed, as far as I can tell, was late last year in a discussion raised by me on this talk page. I can't tell what the result of that was but as obvious, the status quo has been preserved since then. I remember it also being discussed elsewhere previously. I agree that discussing this again would be a good idea, but it is important to remember that this would also be a two-step process. Step 1 would be to discuss whether they should be separated, and Step 2 would be deciding on which date (out of which there are several contending dates) the split should be around. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how picking a date, and a final figure who is listed in the "list of Roman emperors" is not picking a final person who is more of a Roman emperor than anyone who comes after. Do Byzantine emperors‎ having their own category mean they are not Roman? No, they're simply listed as a subcat of Roman emperors. There is no reason why a similar logic couldn't be followed here. The issue of the specific year to cut the list off (491, 602, 641...) is irrelevant: whatever is chosen would not be incorrect, since they're historical conventions. There's also no problem with a slight overlap. Avilich (talk) 18:39, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I feel like that's the implication, yes. The issue is that picking an end date and a final figure to include in this list, necessitates picking a final figure to be included in the list of Roman emperors, even if we have a note at the bottom saying "this list continues at the list of Byzantine emperors..." the implication of the title and scope of the list (one would expect a list of Roman emperors to list every Roman emperor) is that the final person is the last Roman emperor. I don't see how the subcategory example is similar - the Byzantine emperor category is a subcategory of the Roman emperor category which means they are included in that category, article structure does not work in the same way. As I said, I think that this can easily turn into a WP:NPOV issue since it is not possible to reconcile the different views on when Rome "transitions" into Byzantium. Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Can we hope to resolve this? So far the current positions seem to be (excluding the discussion on whether to omit the Byzantines for now):

• Include everyone who was recognized or claimed the title of Augustus, or the later equivalent Basileus - Richard Keatinge, Ichthyovenator
• Include everyone who is referred to as "emperor" in at least one RS (I think the list produced by this approach would be the same as the one produced if the above position is what we would go with) - NebY
• Include everyone who appears in multiple lists of emperors in RSs - Ichthyovenator, DutchHoratius (no strong preference)
• Include everyone who appears in at least one list of emperors in RSs - AmateurEditor
• WP:IGNOREALLRULES, maintain the current approach of wikipedia editors picking who goes on the list - Avilich

Again, relevant policies that the currently live list, at least to me, is breaking are WP:LISTCRITERIA, WP:OR, and potentially WP:NPOV. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:38, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually, my position is that anyone who can reasonably be described as a usurper should not be listed here, but instead on the list of usurpers. I don't really disagree with you that we should 'include everyone who appears in multiple lists of emperors in RSs' (only I think 'multiple lists' should preferably be 'majority of lists'). 'Ignore the rules' was mostly about discouraging hair-splitting analyses of what exactly makes one emperor legitimate. Avilich (talk) 12:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Apologies if I misrepresented your position, I was skimming through the discussion trying to find definite stances. I think that "can reasonably be described as a usurper" is dangerously vague (and POV?) and would necessitate a lot of case-by-case looking (the western Constantine III is a prime example that comes to mind - usurper or legitimate?), some figures who indisputably were usurpers - Niger and Albinus -are also included in a majority of lists (do you suggest omitting them?) whereas some indisputably legitimate figures - for instance Philip II and Herennius Etruscus - are not. My idea with multiple lists rather than majority of lists was that it would fit with WP:NPOV and at the same time produce a list that vaguely resembles the one we have now, with a few additions rather than omissions. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I used "emperor" to be brief, without discussing whether the criterion should be "emperor" or "Augustus"/"Basileus" or any other term. My point is that each inclusion depends on WP:SECONDARY reliable souces and as normal for Wikipedia, these do not have to be the same sources in each case. There should be no exclusions for non-appearance on a list or lists, and presence on a list or lists is not sufficient grounds for inclusion. Such WP:TERTIARY sources may be useful to an editor reviewing the article for surprising omissions or inclusions, but that's all.

If RS histories say someone met the criterion (be it "emperor", "Augustus"/"Basileus", or whatever), they should be included. It would be contrary to the very purpose of Wikipedia to exclude them and a breach of WP:NPOV, as well as a recipe for conflict whenever an editor arrived to make a fully RS-based addition. Likewise, if someone meets the criterion, that will be traceable to RS histories cited in their bluelinked article or directly in this article, and without that their bare appearance in some tertiary list will not be sufficient grounds for inclusion. There is no shortage of better sources. NebY (talk) 13:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks NebY, I agree entirely. Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

My thinking concerning the idea of looking at other lists was firstly that inclusion of a figure in a list of Roman emperors implies that figure being recognized as a Roman emperor. Craven (2019)'s list is for instance backed up by the rest of his book, where the entries of each figure specifies whether he views them as a usurper or legitimate emperor and why (in-line with his list). Secondly, I also thought looking at other lists fit with WP:LISTCRITERIA's point of including things readers would expect to find in the list, reasonably our list of emperors should resemble other lists of emperors. I think your approach works as well - as I said I think the resulting list would probably be more or less the same. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Wasn't Clodius Albinus granted the title of Caesar by Septimius Severus at some point, and since Severus has become regarded as "legitimate" from 193 shouldn't that count for something?★Trekker (talk) 14:58, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but recognition as caesar does not mean recognition as augustus. If Clodius Albinus would be added in we'd then also need to add in figures like Lucius Aelius Caesar and Constantius Gallus. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:14, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Wasn't Caesar the official title of many so called "Junior emperors" like during the Tetrarchy?★Trekker (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

This was already discussed above. The caesar are omitted since they were subordinate of the augustus, or at least they were not treated as equals. Tintero21 (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't article be called List of Augusti then?★Trekker (talk) 19:59, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

No one search a "List of Roman augusti", they search a "List of Roman emperors". The title caesar is bellow augustus (and later basileus), is as simple as that. We just call them "emperors" because it's the historiographic convention. Tintero21 (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Thats kind of the problem tho, "Roman emperor" is anachronistic and made up, not everyone considered Roman emperor in a lot of sources were "official Augusti". And some people who were Augusti ruled in any meaningful way, yet many Wikipedia articles follow sources thatsay they count as emperor.★Trekker (talk) 21:15, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@*Treker: What do you mean with that last part? Tintero21 (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Pescennius Niger and Clodius Albinus seemingly don't count as Emperors according to this list, yet its commonly known as Year of the Five Emperors.★Trekker (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources overwhelmingly consider only those who were augusti (and in later times senior basileus) to have been "emperors". The majority of scholars consider Niger or Albinus to be usurpers, IMO a label both fit quite well in terms of the sourced section on the distinction in this list. "Year of the Three Emperors and Two Usurpers" does not roll of the tongue quite as well. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I can't say I've gotten that impression myself. As I see it the title "Roman emperor" honestly seems kinda anachronistic anyway, the rulers of Imperial Rome held many titles, "Roman emperor" was never one of them. I'd personally rather list "Augusti", "Caesares" and "Basileis" by titles, but I realize I'm probably alone on this.★Trekker (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the term is anachronistic and that distinctions between augusti and caesares are at times blurry (the caesar Constantius Gallus clearly wielded more power than the augustus Diadumenian) but we're forced to follow common conventions and mainstream usage. I don't think we need a separate list of Basileis since it's the same office (emperors were not uncommonly called basileus in the east long before Heraclius) but I support the idea of creating a list of caesares. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:54, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Caesar (title) already has an incomplete list of holders. Starting in the 1st century and ending in the 20th century. Dimadick (talk) 02:59, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I believe a split might be in order, with a list one that could look more similar to this one.★Trekker (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

5 column style

Can we go back to the previous 5-column format? I know I'm not the only one that think it was way better (as pointed above). I post this to avoid any possible edit conflict. Tintero21 (talk) 00:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC) (Sorry for the guy that edited the whole list just to add those columns)

Your link shows the list with two different column formats:

From 27 BC to 602 AD it used: Portrait; Name; Reign; Succession; Life details.

From 602 to 1453 it used: Portrait; Name; Birth; Succession; Reign; Time in office; Death. AmateurEditor (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the whole byzantine section needed to be re-edited. My idea is to apply the 5 column format to all tables. Tintero21 (talk) 04:22, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to that, but it was less work at the time to go the other way and apply to the whole page what most rows were doing already. I also liked two things in particular from the 7 column format: that the information was presented chronologically from left to right (the 5 column format put reign before succession) and that the "Life details" column was made more specific and so less prone to accumulate WP:FANCRUFT over time. AmateurEditor (talk) 04:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Understandable. I don't like the 7-column style primarily because, well, it's a large number of columns. It has too much stuff, basically. Probably most readers would be more comfortable reading 5 large columns instead of 7 small and compressed ones. For the chronological issue, I would argue that the old order (Name, Reign, Succession, Life) was (forgive the redundancy) ordered by relevancy, because most people are more concern about knowing the reign dates of an emperor rather than his birthday. I personally thing that putting the Reign before Succession looks better, although I wouldn't really mind if it's changed. Finally, "Life details" could be renamed as "Lifespan" to avoid innecesary details, with the section only showing the birthday and cause of death. I would gladly edit the whole thing if necessary, altought I saw that User:Ichthyovenator already made the canges in his working draft.Tintero21 (talk) 06:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

As can be gathered from my draft, I support a change back to the 5-column format. I agree with every point made by Tintero21. I also agree that if "Life details" is too vague, we can change it to "Lifespan" or something similar. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I originally put Life details so that relevant details of interest about someone could be included. For example, in Julian there could be a brief sentence/remark about him being the last non-Christian emperor of Rome, since that would probably of interest to readers. Manner of death is also arguably something worth including. Simple lifespan seems too brief, especially since we don't know when everybody was born or died. Avilich (talk) 14:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Also a valid point - if called "Lifespan" it also doesn't really fit if we include details on the end of the reigns for those (few) emperors who abdicated or were deposed but allowed to live. Ichthyovenator (talk) 15:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

True. Another option could be to place those details in "Succession and notes" (Trajan's entry says: Adopted son and heir of Nerva. His reign marked the geographical peak of the empire). By the way, Ichthyovenator, I feel that putting the full imperial name of each emperor is kind of unnecessary, as they are extremely long and take up a lot of space. I think way the Wikipedia’s list handles names is really good. Tintero21 (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that's also true. I think including/omitting the full imperial name of the emperors seems like sort of a personal choice if you look at RSs. They don't have to be included by any means but I referenced three separate RSs that do list the emperors with these styles - they're how the emperors title themselves on coins and inscriptions, so how they officially presented themselves. I think it's a nice thing to include and I don't like how the current list uses Imperator only for Augustus, and Caesar & Augustus only until the mid-Nerva-Antonine dynasty. It's apparently referenced to a source but it feels arbitrary to use it in the beginning and not later (the note says that they stopped being inheritable names, but Augustus to Antoninus Pius was not a genealogical dynastic line so I don't see how that applies). As I said, personal opinion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Tthe term 'inherited' is not altogether inappropriate since those names indicated continuity with predecessors (though I changed the wording now). In any event, what the source says is that the form "Imperator Caesar [full name] Augustus" became standard from the time of the Antonines onward. Specifically, the names 'Caesar' and 'Augustus' were transmitted down to each emperor in the same way regular names were inherited by traditional adoption procedure. This was not the case anymore with M. Aurelius, who, according to the source cited, received 'Caesar' as a title (not a name inherited by adoption) to denote his status as heir-apparent, and switched his name to 'Augustus' upon his accession. Since basically every emperor afterwards used 'Caesar' and 'Augustus' this way, it makes sense to stop mentioning these two titles at that point. Avilich (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

New note is more clear. Yeah, I'm not opposed to either approach - the current method with just the names works. Perhaps we could put together something like a "Style of the Roman emperors" article (similar to Style of the British sovereign, Style of the Georgian sovereign, Style of the Dutch sovereign etc.) eventually, because I think it is worth including and discussing the full titles somewhere (alternatively expanding Roman emperor, which talks about it a bit but not in the way I'm envisioning). Ichthyovenator (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Change image of Constantine XI?

I've found that on most pages this image: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Constantine_XI_Palaiologos_miniature_(cropped).jpg is used for the portrait of emperor Constantine XI The other image seems more detailed but this one is used more PolarWafflez🐶 (talk) 09:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, I believe that the other image was painted long before the currently used image, and in this page there are also paintings from the same codex. I'm not sure, just a suggestion. PolarWafflez🐶 (talk) 09:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@PolarWafflez5327: Yes, the image you link is preferrable over the one that is used in this list. It's from the Mutinensis gr. 122, a 15th-century codex, so it is nearly a contemporary depiction. The other one is from some form of religious icon done later. I've changed the image. Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. PolarWafflez🐶 (talk) 12:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I think The Constantinian dynasty should have its own section

I think The Constantinian dynasty (excluding Constantius Chlorus and Constantine I) should have its own section as The Constantinian's weren't necessarily the Tetrarchy. Yaxops Banter 21:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Eugenius, Magnentius, Constans (II) and other "problematic" emperors

I know the usurper / legitimacy discussion has been going for a while, so I'll be brief. This is my proposition: Add Magnentius and Constans, son of Constantine III, and include the following criteria: "Any emperor post-286 that has had (if breafly) de facto rule over any half of the Empire is included." This way the entire list maintains more or less the same criteria without using some arbitrary turnpoint like 395. Eugenius and Magnentius have basically the same story ("usurpers" in the West defeated by the Eastern emperor), yet one is included and the other omitted (and they were both pre-395). I know these emperors are not often (if ever) listed in books, but… like, come on, this whole list is already too disconnected from any academic list. If, on the other hand, you think using the 395 division is better, then Eugenius should be excluded and Constans included. Tintero21 (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that if figures like Joannes and Eugenius are in, there is no reason to leave out Magnentius - all of these are figures that are sometimes regarded as legitimate emperors and sometimes as usurpers. My idea for a consistent approach would be to include all such figures, but clearly mark those whose legitimacy is disputed by historians, like here where my approach is to define inclusion criteria with academic references (WP:LISTCRITERIA), include all figures who fit those criteria and then mark those of these figures that some regard as illegitimate anyway. Ichthyovenator (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm very impressed with your work, I really liked how you handled the issue (and how you show the co-emperors too). I'm not quite sure about adding rulers like Nepotianus and Uranius, specially the latter. Adding these clarifications would make things much less confusing. Tintero21 (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll see if this draft ever gets near finished (not my first attempt). Uranius is easily the most flimsy inclusion, yes, so will have to see if I keep him in down the line. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Constans II is complicated since he was an appointee of someone whose right to appoint wasn't recognized, and he died shortly afterwards anyway. Avilich (talk) 03:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you but figures like Eugenius and Joannes were never recognized at all by the emperors in the east so it seems recognition cannot be the sole determining factor. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Congratulations

I just discovered that this list was first created on 13NOV 2001. That means that it is over 20 years old now. That is longer than most roman emperors reigned!

Congratulations to everyone who contributed to making this list into what it is today.

DutchHoratius (talk) 12:43, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Content of the lead

This article is a list of emperors. The lead paragraphs should contain some information about the title, and an explanation of the East-West divide, but a more general discussion of the empire's shifting borders and territorial gains and losses is not called for here. I've deleted some sentences that don't assist the reader's understanding of the list. Richard75 (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I've been reverted with the edit summary "An emperor rules the empire; the territory is important." It would be important in another article (such as Roman Empire), but nobody is coming to List of Roman emperors to learn about the territory. It's just a list of individuals; we have another article for the empire and its history and geography. Richard75 (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion the territory over which the holder of the title exercised authority is highly relevant and we can afford to have a few sentences briefly explaining this in the lead. Ichthyovenator (talk) 00:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Sponsianus

If we are to include Silbannacus, it probably makes sense to include Sponsianus as well: both are extremely obscure and only known from two coins. Winthrop23 (talk) 12:32, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Difference is Silbannacus ruled in Rome, although I would not have included it as well. T8612 (talk) 12:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

A list of Visigothic Kings

A list of Visigothic Kings uses, at least in part, material from this article. I thought I would post here in case anyone was interested. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Lucullus19: Are you watching this article? You may want to vet recent edits. Srnec (talk) 03:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH

This list is a par excellence original synthesis: individual data can be verified but lists of Roman Emperors published in reliable sources typically does not mention Byzantine Emperors after the 6th and 7th centuries. Borsoka (talk) 16:45, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

To verify my tags, I copy Srnec's words from an ongoing AfD discussion: "Our current list of Roman emperors page represents a highly "legitimist" interpretation. The Latin emperors are excluded in favour of the Laskarids, as are the rulers of Trebizond. The Holy Roman Emperors, who had a stronger connection to Rome, are ignored entirely. The list stops in 1453 without regards for any subsequent claims. In fact, we have three articles on such claims: Succession of the Roman Empire, Succession to the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman claim to Roman succession. I'm not saying this interpretation is wrong, but it is a particular POV that treats the claims of the Byzantine rulers very seriously and the claims of everyone else as nonsense. My own opinion, which agrees (IIRC) with that of E. A. Freeman, is that calling the empire "Roman" is unproblematic and preferable down to the 8th century. During that century, the emperors lose control of Rome (permanently) and, in 800, a rival claim to legitimacy is created. After that, "Byzantine" is preferable for the eastern empire for clarity." We should list the Roman emperors as they are listed in modern reliable sources. Borsoka (talk) 01:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

The claim in the 8th century was because a woman was empress, the seat of emperor was vacant. And before Charlemagne's coronation, no Pope had even blessed a Roman Emperor and his authority was based on the forged Donation of Constantine. If the pope claimed authority from Constantine and Constantine is the emperor who made New Rome and supported Christianity, why is the unbroken lineage from Constantine considered different after the 8th century?

Have you ever considered why the word Byzantine replaced Charlemagnes "Empire of the Greeks" in the 19th century? Why isn't Empire of the Greeks -- invented by Charlamagne and when the problem starts -- a more appropriate term after the 8th century?

Based on the view of Anthony Kaldellis, the term Byzantine is problematic and it makes perfect sense to call all "Eastern" emperors as emperors of the Roman Empire. The truth of the matter is that it's politics for power that historians are now fighting over and Wikipedia needs to stand above this. "Reliable sources" on this topic are a myth as it's a battle to control the narrative of the origin of the West. Elias (talk) 19:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

WP is based on reliable sources and most reliable sources make a difference between the ancient Roman Empire and the medieval Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire. For more than a week no editors have referred to reliable source verifying the timeframe of this list. Borsoka (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Here is one that lists every emperor from Augustus to Constantine XI: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/byzantium/texts/byzemps.asp Elias (talk) 05:55, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

And it is splitted into two separate list of western and eastern emperors after 395. Borsoka (talk) 06:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

True. But the title is "The Rulers of the Roman Empire". Elias (talk) 06:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but if you look at similar lists linked in this article you will see that they do not cover the whole period. Neither do cover the same period the books cited in the article. Borsoka (talk) 07:00, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Check Ian Mladjov: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I6aQjcxem4viTf_t0j8OJxPQHy_2QjVr/view

Listed here. (Not sure how to best attribute the work.)

If you read the foot note on page 11, you will see how 395 was not the final year "East" and "West" had a sole emperor for the combined empire which was theoretically still one. It actually was 473.

I also like the headings he uses to categorise the rulers. Elias (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

...and to your point about books cited not covering the entire period, well of course! This is such a big history, it's not practical to cover the entire period in one book. Mike Duncan's excellent History of Rome Podcast went for 70ish hours and by that stage he was exhausted to go past 478 despite acknowledging there was another 1000 years of history to cover just not centered at Rome Elias (talk) 17:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, sources which cover certain period will naturally only include emperors of that period. It wouldn't make sense to include all eastern emperors unless the author is specifically talking about the Byzantine period. Most reliable sources do not include all rulers of Persia or China, yet we still have a List of monarchs of Persia and List of monarchs of China. The Byzantine emperors were the rulers of the Eastern provinces of the Roman Empire, so in that sense they were still "Roman" emperors. It was always the same state (at least until 1204). The problem is that their culture became quite different of what we consider "Roman", even if they called it as such. Tintero21 (talk) 20:12, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

All true things you've said. But a landmine of opinion as well. I'd love to explore how Romanitas differed from Hellenism, how much Latin influenced Greek versus how Greek made Latin, and how much of Christianity are pagan traditions but in a different form. But not for an encyclopaedia.

Which is why Wikipedia needs to stand above it: Roman and Byzantine are the same state just in different periods of European history. Historians invented a name for the later Roman Empire for whatever reason, but let's not make that naming a different entity. Elias (talk) 01:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Even so you can easily find publications to verify those lists like the volumes of The Cambridge History of China ([9]) or The Cambridge History of Iran ([10]). Borsoka (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

The histories of Italy and Greece claim heritage of the Roman and Byzantine Empires. Byzantine history is considered "medieval Greece" in Greece's schooling system.

But what you are pointing out supports what I was trying to say earlier. History gets used to control the narrative to support modern day politics and why it keeps getting rewritten. The history of the two modern nation states of China and Iran is not more than a century and yet they are claiming thousands of years as heritage. The difference with the Greco-Roman history (versus Iran and China) is that all of Europe claims it as heritage. Elias (talk) 01:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps, you are right. However, we are here to write of history as it is presented in reliable sources not to write a history as we think it should be presented in reliable sources. I think my proposal in the following section could solve all problems. Splitting the large List of Roman emperors into three different lists would be fully in line with the sources cited in the article, or at least would not contradict either of them, and we could avoid the use of "Byzantine", an expression that is obviously an anathema for many editors. Borsoka (talk) 04:37, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

What are the reliable sources that are guiding this direction?

Anthony Kaldellis has a new book forth coming: https://www.amazon.com/New-Roman-Empire-History-Byzantium/dp/0197549322 which says the Eastern Roman Empire starts in 324, not 395. Elias (talk) 06:34, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

What is clear after 395 separate emperors ruled the eastern and western half of the empire until 480. Borsoka (talk) 07:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Borsoka I did a scan on talk and I think there is a lot there that can guide our discussion. But more usefully, here is a list of sources that you said are lacking in the article (and which is also apparently what prevented this list from becoming featured): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Roman_emperors#Sources_List_for_discussions Elias (talk) 21:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I studied the lists before concluding that the present list is in fact an original synthesis. Borsoka (talk) 04:29, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

1. The Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire cannot be added to the list because it is not a continuation of the Ancient Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire emerged as a political problem for the pope. 2. Byzantine emperors were added to the list simply because they are a continuation of the Roman Empire itself. Even if it is a reliable source, it cannot be cited if the author's subjective thoughts are involved. 3. Edward Gibbon described the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453. 4. Since the Empire of Nicaea restored the Byzantine Empire, a claimant to the throne like Emperor Trebizond cannot be included in the list. To include them, include the claimant to the throne in the list of current European monarchs. The current claimant to the throne of United kingdom is Ernst August V. Ricedylano (talk) 08:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

My argument against Ernst August V after the exact investigation was wrong, sry Ricedylano (talk) 09:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Could you refer to reliable sources cited in the article that cover the period between 27BC and 1453AD? Borsoka (talk) 14:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Just a proposal to discuss

I am just making an informal proposal about splitting the article. To avoid original synthesis, I think the article could be splitted into three articles: 1. List of Roman emperors (covering the period from 27 BC to 395 AD); 2. List of Western Roman emperors (395-476/480); and 3. List of Eastern Roman emperors (395-1453). Borsoka (talk) 17:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

That's an improvement but the term Eastern is also a problem. Why do we define it as 395? Theodosius's successors, per this pages list, continued nearly to the end of the Western Roman Empire. Which then goes back to who was "Eastern Roman" versus who was "Roman". Shouldn't Constantine be considered first Eastern emperor? Justinian would be Eastern under your view, but he is also considered the last Roman while simultaneously the greatest Byzantine? Geographically, the term "Eastern emperors" is problematic as they had territory in Italy up until the 11th century, including Rome until the 8th century. Is the term Eastern not also an original synthesis issue as well?

There is no real scholarly consensus of when Byzantine started and it is being actively challenged as a term today. Fundamentally, before we had confusion we blame the historians for, it was confusion due to politics so the very nature of Byzantine will always be problematic to define.

I like the suggestion I read to rename the page "List of Roman and Byzantine emperors" so that Wikipedia does not take a stance of what is Roman and what is Byzantine. Elias (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

395 is a quite natural point of division between Roman, Eastern Roman, and Western Roman Emperor since after this year no emperors ruled the whole Roman Empire alone. Yes, Eastern Emperors ruled parts of Italy, but the bulk of the one-time Western Roman Empire was ruled by independent kings. Borsoka (talk) 02:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Except for Theodosius II (425) and, nominally, Marcianus (456–457), and Leo I (457, 461, 465–467, 472–473), during vacancies in the West. Elias (talk) 20:44, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Borsoka I reached out to the historian Anthony Kaldellis and he thinks 364 is a natural split as the East formed its own administration (which you will also see in the source I posted separately). This is despite 425 like I pointed out, or later when Anthemius was sent west. Elias (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The traditional date of the separation is 395. From then on, emperors are listed as Western or Eastern Roman emperors. Borsoka (talk) 02:14, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I would like to research this more. What sources support this date? Elias (talk) 04:14, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

[11]: from 395 all emperors ruled the east or the west according to the list. A recent monography about the Late Roman Empire also verifies the date: "With the succession of Theodosius by his sons and grandsons Honorius and Valentinian III in the west, Arcadius and Theodosius II in the east, the two parts of the Empire began to take different directions." (Elton, Hugh (2018). The Roman Empire in Late Antiquity: A Political and Military History. Cambridge University Press. p. 151. ISBN 978-1-108-45631-9.) Borsoka (talk) 05:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. But the point I made is administrations starting distinguishing themselves from 364 (sorry I did the wrong link earlier, this one page 10) and my point earlier is the head of state of the unified empire was not the last at 395 (footnote on page 11 to before mentioned). And if we run with Pirenne's thesis, it was business as usual just the West got Germanified and the East Greekified over time. (And then by Decemeber 25 800 AD different enough they were unrecognisable, by 1054 the separation, and by 1182/1204 the divorce). Elias (talk) 20:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

We are not discussing the separation of the two halves of the empire, but the division of the list of emperors. 395 is a quite natural point: vacancies in the west did not restore a unified empire. Borsoka (talk) 02:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Sure. So the current article uses the well established Principate, Dominate and "later eastern". Why do we need to replace those terms? Elias (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Eastern and Western are more familiar and more widely used in the article's context. I have never read any reference to any "Emperor of the Principate/Dominate/Later Eastern Empire". Borsoka (talk) 09:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

That's true. But why not have pages as Roman emperors (Principate period) and Roman emperors (Dominate period) with divisions as subheadings? Within Dominate -- which is the only time these references actually matter -- simply list west or east emperor as sub-headings on those pages. More practical as it's time based, contextual, and avoids the opinions that causes issues.

I guess I'm not really sure what problem we are solving. I feel your original post is less an issue since I shared that source but I'm also sensitive to how a article split can be used for narrative on other pages. Elias (talk) 20:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Why should we have separate pages about the Roman emperors of the Principate and the Dominate periods? I would be grateful if you could verify your proposals with references to reliable sources. Borsoka (talk) 04:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I believe based on the sources, including the above mentioned list that was referred to me by a leading professor of Byzantine history, that there should be only one article page listing all emperors as defined from Augustus to Constantine XI.

I was trying to accommodate a way to break up the list given the page is 186kb. But I find the costs outweigh the benefits given the way the eastern emperors are portrayed inconsistently and in contrast to western Europe especially after the 8th century. As individual emperors and terms Principate and the Dominate can be independently verified with time periods that overlap with the emperors, I don't believe an additional verification is needed. But as you make the point it needs to, then I defer back to how the article currently is and what I've said: the cost of splitting outweigh the benefits. Elias (talk) 05:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

A list presenting the emperors of the Principate and the Dominate would be even more an original synthesis than the present list. Works on the history of the "Roman"/"Byzantine" Empires only exceptionally cover the whole period from 27BC to 1453AD (as it is demonstrated by works cited in this article, or listed above). Borsoka (talk) 08:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I would support 3 lists personally, because I think a very detailed list for all of them, both classical Roman and later Byzantine Roman emperors would probably become too large.★Trekker (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

All of them? Do you intend to include figures from the List of Roman usurpers and the List of Byzantine usurpers? Dimadick (talk) 01:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I mean "all" as in both classical Roman and Byzantine ones, as I explicitly stated.★Trekker (talk) 21:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

I propose that the article be splitted into three separate articles:

• 1. List of Roman emperors, covering the period until 395;
• 2. List of Western Roman emperors, presenting the emperors who ruled the Western Roman Empire from 395 to 476/480;
• 3. List of Eastern Roman emperors, presenting the emperors who reigned in the Eastern Roman (or Byzantine) Empire from 395 to 1453 (this list could be merged with the List of Byzantine emperors).

The present long list of the Roman emperors is exceptional in scholarly literature. It represents only one single claim to the succession of the Roman Empire (for example, it ignores the claims of the emperors of Trapezunt and Thessalonica). Furthermore, no corresponding article exists primarily because a corresponding article (covering the history of the Roman Empire from 27BC to 1453AD) would be an original synthesis. Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I don't see why you need to split 2 from 1. We should have one list down to 476 (1 & 2) and another from 395 (3). I wouldn't mind if there was an overlap by listing eastern emperors down to Zeno in the first list. T8612 (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
• Two is enough, one ending in 476/491/602/641 and the other comprising 395-1453. The question of the Roman-ness of the Byzantines can be avoided altogether by presenting (3) as a subtopic of (1). 476 and 491 don't mean much, but cutting the present list at those points is preferable to the current arrangement. Avilich (talk) 20:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your comments. Splitting the article into three would improve readibility as our readers would not be forced to construct their own list of the Western Roman emperors after 395 from a long list of emperors. The splitting would be in line with the sources cited in the article, or at least would not contradict either of them. From 395 emperors ruled either the eastern or the western half of the empire, and wars between the two halves of the empire were not unusual. A recent monography about the Late Roman Empire verifies the date: "With the succession of Theodosius by his sons and grandsons Honorius and Valentinian III in the west, Arcadius and Theodosius II in the east, the two parts of the Empire began to take different directions." (Elton, Hugh (2018). The Roman Empire in Late Antiquity: A Political and Military History. Cambridge University Press. p. 151. ISBN 978-1-108-45631-9.) Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
• Two lists is the appropriate division—virtually all lists of Roman emperors in both scholarly sources and general references include rulers of the Western Empire down to 476. Most of these include contemporaneous Eastern rulers down to the same period, although it makes sense to include these—from 395 makes sense—in a "List of Byzantine emperors". Please note that I am not arguing that the latter is not synonymous with a "List of Eastern Roman emperors", but the former title is more recognizable in English, and will avoid any confusion over whether the latter title is appropriate after say, 476 or Justinian or some time in the seventh or eighth century—an argument which experience shows is unlikely to be resolved here. Following the usual practice will result in both lists including some rulers—specifically those who reigned in the East between 395 and 476—but otherwise the division will be clean and serve our readers better than one very, very long list that doesn't distinguish between Romans and Byzantines at all. P Aculeius (talk) 12:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

  "... virtually all lists of Roman emperors in both scholarly sources and general references include rulers of the Western Empire down to 476." That's not what we see in the assembled sources list here:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Roman_emperors#Sources_List_for_discussions 2601:14D:4F81:5400:54C8:D88E:DC7B:76F0 (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2023 (UTC)