Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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| Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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| Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
| Jessica Nabongo | New | Log6849129 (t) | 5 days, 22 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 14 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 14 hours |
| Neith | New | Potymkin (t) | 5 days, 19 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 12 hours | Potymkin (t) | 8 hours |
| Ashfield Independents | Closed | NottsPolitics (t) | 2 days, 20 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 13 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 13 hours |
| Existential risk studies | Closed | JoaquimCebuano (t) | 2 days, 20 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 12 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 12 hours |
| Riley Gaines | New | Lisha2037 (t) | 2 days, 3 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 18 hours | DanielRigal (t) | 1 days, 18 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 09:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
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Current disputes
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
– Discussion in progress.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
The User:koavf has deleted an Awards table, citing WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:BLP and has also removed the subject from the BAFTA awards Category. I have disputed these deletions on the article's Talk page. I do not agree with the assertions of the other user for reasons outlined in the revert notices and on the article's Talk page. Moreover, I have suggested that if there are individual items warranting attention such as the requirement for a citation, that [citation needed] is preferable to deletion of a contribution, especially a table which can take hours to create. The responses I find acrimonious, and for my part, I prefer to fix issues myself than to flag them for others to fix. With such an imprecise intervention by this editor, it believe it would be better for them to either fix the issues themselves, and submit for review, or to be specific if they do not feel they have the knowledge in the areas concerned.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I would like the Awards table to be reinstated, and if there are individual items on this list that are likely to be challenged under [citation needed] rules, that they be individually flagged, rather than the entire table taken down. The editor concerned appears not to have followed through the linked to articles, and the citations on the respective pages. Everywhere I have so far checked leads to a reliable source.
Summary of dispute by koavf
This article had unsourced information, including claims about living persons. Per WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:BLP, I removed the unsourced claims. All content on Wikipedia that is not common knowledge needs a citation, either in the text or in the form of an inline citation. Additionally, Wikipedia cannot cite itself, so just linking to another article that itself has sources is not sufficient. I don't know what about anything I just wrote is controversial, nor do I know why anyone wants to add unsourced information to the encyclopedia. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert discussion
Volunteer note: The filing editor has not notified the other editor on their user talk page.Robert McClenon (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
- The other editor has nevertheless already responded here, and the dispute is posted on the article’s Talk page. Can you please explain the policy under which duplication on the other editor’s Talk page is now still required ? Chrisdevelop (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by moderator (Priscilla)
Please read the usual rules. It appears that the main issue is whether to include an Awards table. Are there any other article content issues? Do the editors want to take part in moderated discussion subject to the rules? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Priscilla)
- The dispute is not about having a table listing awards. The dispute is about having information that is unsourced (in an article about living persons). I am happy to discuss whatever. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Concerns about unsourced information should be flagged as such, e.g. [citation needed], since it isn't possible to add citations to a table if the table has been removed from the article, as happened here. Tables are particularly arduous to create, and to delete one is overkill that undoes a great deal of work by other editors, and should not be the first course of action if other options are available, such as a discussion on the article's Talk Page. It is neither necessary nor desirable to provide a citation for every single contribution, unless it is likely to be challenged. As such, the Awards table has been up for a very long time and has hitherto been unchallenged. A cluster of redundant citations impedes readability and adds superfluous bulk to the article. Priscilla is highly notable, as are the awards the film won, nearly all linked through to other articles that provide corroboration from reliable sources. Outside of Wikipedia, readers can easily verify the contributions, and there are no potentially defamatory claims about living persons in the table that I can find. I have gone through all the awards, and they're all verifiable in Wikipedia's existing citations, or easy to find. Chrisdevelop (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know why you wrote this: it's not in reference to what Robert wrote above and doesn't answer his questions. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Concerns about unsourced information should be flagged as such, e.g. [citation needed], since it isn't possible to add citations to a table if the table has been removed from the article, as happened here. Tables are particularly arduous to create, and to delete one is overkill that undoes a great deal of work by other editors, and should not be the first course of action if other options are available, such as a discussion on the article's Talk Page. It is neither necessary nor desirable to provide a citation for every single contribution, unless it is likely to be challenged. As such, the Awards table has been up for a very long time and has hitherto been unchallenged. A cluster of redundant citations impedes readability and adds superfluous bulk to the article. Priscilla is highly notable, as are the awards the film won, nearly all linked through to other articles that provide corroboration from reliable sources. Outside of Wikipedia, readers can easily verify the contributions, and there are no potentially defamatory claims about living persons in the table that I can find. I have gone through all the awards, and they're all verifiable in Wikipedia's existing citations, or easy to find. Chrisdevelop (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Priscilla)
Please read the usual rules again. I usually ask editors to read the rules again. Be civil and concise. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to the moderator and the community. User:Chrisdevelop has not answered whether they will engage in moderated discussion subject to the rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
I now infer that the issue is that there was a table of awards, and one editor removed it because it was unsourced, and the other editor wants it restored. Is that correct? Can it be restored, with sources? Is there an issue about the removal of a table because it did not have sources? Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
First statement by Koavf (Priscilla)
"I now infer that the issue is that there was a table of awards, and one editor removed it because it was unsourced, and the other editor wants it restored. Is that correct?" Yes. "Can it be restored, with sources?" Please. "Is there an issue about the removal of a table because it did not have sources?" Yes. "Are there any other issues?" No. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:13, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
First statement by Chrisdevelop (Priscilla)
Because I opened this disupute requesting intervention by moderators, I assumed it was obvious I agreed to intervention by moderators, but to remove all doubt, I would like to place on record that I agree to it.
The Awards table (originally titled ‘Accolades’, before becoming a subtitle) first appeared in the Revision as of 08:45, 8 April 2016 and in the 7 years that have elapsed since, this table has been updated with numerous edits. According to the Page Information, at the time of posting this, there have been 25661 page views of the article in the past 30 days. Rounding down to 25,000 as a mean monthly access rate from the time the table went up, this article has been viewed roughly 2 million times by members of the public, any one of whom can sign in as editor and either challenge the Awards table, edit it, or flag issues, such as by [citation needed]. Yet this has never happened until the day that User:koavf saw fit to delete the table entirely without giving other editors a chance to provide citations for the contributions he was disputing, or being specific about which cells on the table he considered fell foul of the three Wikipedia policies he adduced. Meanwhile, I have notified the originating editor (IP address only ID provided) who contributed the table that this attempt was made to remove it.
Under Wikipedia WP:CITE policy, citations should be provided where a contribution is likely to be challenged. For example, a claim that ‘water is found in large quantities on asteroids’ is not common knowledge and would require verification from a reliable source, whereas ‘water is usually used for washing’ would not likely be challenged. Surviving 7 years is a decent track record for this Awards table. Surely, after 2 million views, if a challenge was likely, especially one so serious that it warranted summary excisement of the entire Awards table without discussion, it would have occurred by now?
In the article’s Talk page discussion, Koavf stated that he deleted the Awards table ‘because it had no sources’, and that it violated the following policies:
WP:V policy, which states that ‘verifiability’ means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source.
WP:OR which is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.
WP:BLP policy, which requires that contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately.
Nearly all the entries on the Awards table are links to other Wikipedia articles, which means they’re notable enough to have an article. This is not recursively “using Wikipedia to prove Wikipedia” as asserted by Koavf, it is providing a directory to articles that provide details about the awards cited. If you drill down, you will soon enough get to citations if you’re concerned about verifiability of claims. To copy all 72 citations back so they appear in the source table is going to result in what will look like citation spam.
Let’s walk through just three of these:
- The first entry in the Awards table is AACTA Awards#List of AACTA ceremonies. In this section there is a table wherein there is not a single citation provided, moreover, there are living persons listed. Why has Koavf not deleted this table on the same grounds he gave for removing the Awards table in the Priscilla article? All but 6 of cells on this table drill down to another article.
- The next entry is AACTA_Award_for_Best_Film. From 1976 to 2023 there is not a single citation provided, moreover, there are living persons listed, many either with no article, or redlinked. Why has Koavf likewise not deleted this table on the same grounds he gave for removing the Awards table in the Priscilla article?
- Then we have AACTA Award for Best Direction, and again zero citations, and there are ‘living persons’ cited in almost every cell.
I invite you to walk through the links in every other cell, and confirm the same applies in most of the tables that show up. Again, why has Koavf not deleted all those tables too? Like the Awards table, they are directories to other articles, so none of them have citations, while all refer to living persons. So, what are his reasons for honing in just on the Priscilla Awards table? Had it not been for my having been alerted to the deletion of the Awards table, aside from mention of its Oscar win in the Lede, the film would have gone from having 11 wins to having zero wins and zero nominations, according to this article, and some hapless editor would be sure to create anew an Awards table.
Koavf states that the Awards makes “claims about living persons” without detailing what those claims are, other than on the Talk page, where he he asks, “why are you adding claims that living persons lost awards with no inline citations?” However, the Awards table he deleted does not state that any person, living or otherwise, “lost awards”; the table itemises only those who won them, or were nominated for them. If a reader wants to find out more, all they have to do is click any of the links in the table.
Readers can with minimal difficulty verify that the cells in the Awards table come from a reliable source, by following the links through to their targets. It is not true to assert via adducing of WP:OR that no published sources exist for Priscilla, one of the most notable in cinematic history, if dozens of extensively documented awards, huge box office, spin-off musicals and live shows, alongside the 2 million Wikipedia views this article has enjoyed over the past 7 years are anything to go by. There is nothing ‘contentious’ I can see concerning the nominated living persons in this Awards table, but if there is, then Koavf needs to explain what that is. In short, he needs to give a blow by blow justification for deleting this table; alternatively he should flag it, or fix it. Otherwise, I view his summary deletion of the Awards table as tantamount to vandalism.
I also feel it incumbent to comment on the patronising and paternalistic righteousness of tone at times evinced by Koavf in his dialogue with me on the edit notes, the Talk page and here, which I believe is in contravention of Assume good faith. Chrisdevelop (talk) 22:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Priscilla)
I repeated my question of whether the filing party agreed to moderated discussion because I was also asking whether they agreed to the rules that I provided. Please read the rules a third time, so that I can restate a few points. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements often have the purpose of making the poster feel better, but often do not convey information to the other parties. User:Chrisdevelop – Your post is too long.
Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article, so we talk about the article. Changing the behavior of editors is not in the scope of this noticeboard.
It seems that there is one issue, the removal of the table of awards, which was done because it was unsourced. We have at least two ways to go forward on the issue. First, we can discuss whether the removal was correct or incorrect. The purpose of such discussion will be to decide whether to restore the table in its previous unsourced form. Second, we can discuss the addition of sources to the table. If we add sources to the table, there will be no need to discuss whether to restore it without sources. If the table linked to other Wikipedia articles that have sources, we can simply copy those sources.
Does anyone have a brief plan to propose about the addition of sources to the table? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone have anything else concise to say or ask? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Second statement by Chrisdevelop (Priscilla)
There were three reasons adduced for summary deletion without discussion, as itemised in my previous statement, Original Research, Verifiability and Biography of Living Persons.
If this table did not link to corroborative articles that verify the awards, then I would have agreed it needed citations. However, this table is a directory; it is not a repository of information about the awards. If by definition a table ‘without sources’ has to be deleted, then all the tables it links to should be deleted too, as per my previous statement, since none of them have citations either, and all nominate ‘living persons’. Why are these linked-to tables that document the awards still allowed to remain there, e.g. this table, if the identical reasons for deleting this Awards table are upheld? I am confident as I can be that if I were to delete all the directory tables linked to from the article, I would be nominated for vandalism. This hitherto unchallenged Awards table of seven years’ standing and roughly 2 million views is simply a directory to other articles that corroborate the wins/nominations, and therefore it does not need to be cluttered with citations when this information is present and verifiable in the linked articles. I will also wager that if an editor with time on their hands adds citations for every name and every award, when these are already linked to in the encyclopedia, they will almost certainly be reverted as redundant. Chrisdevelop (talk) 23:42, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
Second statement by Koavf (Priscilla)
"If the table linked to other Wikipedia articles that have sources, we can simply copy those sources." Agreed. It's a trivial problem to solve if someone wants to take it up. I personally don't and according to WP:V (emphasis in the original, footnotes turned into brackets): All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports [A source "directly supports" a given piece of material if the information is present explicitly in the source so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of Wikipedia:No original research. The location of any citation—including whether one is present in the article at all—is unrelated to whether a source directly supports the material. For questions about where and how to place citations, see Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section § Citations, etc.] the contribution.[Once an editor has provided any source they believe, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material must articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia (e.g. why the source is unreliable; the source does not support the claim; undue emphasis; unencyclopedic content; etc.). If necessary, all editors are then expected to help achieve consensus, and any problems with the text or sourcing should be fixed before the material is added back.] This material should not be added back without citations since it has been removed, yet, here we are.
"Does anyone have a brief plan to propose about the addition of sources to the table?" I did not intend to fix the problem personally, only diagnose it (i.e., I just removed the unsourced claims, I was not going to bother trying to prove or disprove another person's claims).
"Does anyone have anything else concise to say or ask?" I just hope that the conversation is fruitful and stays on topic. If anyone else can please tell me where I am wrong, let me know: I believe that content on Wikipedia needs to have sources, and there is a particularly high burden of proof and standard of evidence for articles that make claims about living persons. What am I missing? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (Priscilla)
It appears that there is a policy question. The question is whether a table is consistent with the verifiability policy if it consists of links to other Wikipedia articles and does not have its own references because it relies on the ability of the reader to click through the linked articles that do have references. It appears that the two editors disagree over that point of that policy, so that one editor said that the table was compliant because it linked to other articles that were references, and the other editor removed the table because it did not cite sources. Is that correct? If so, I will ask at Village Pump whether the verifiability policy requires references in the table itself, Do the editors agree to rely on guidance from other experienced editors on a policy question? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Third statement by Koavf (Priscilla)
I think that's correct and I would be interested in clarification, as I solicited it. Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:49, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Third statement by Chrisdevelop (Priscilla)
Thank you, Robert McClenon for your ongoing interest in resolving this dispute. Your summation is correct as far as it goes and I support your proposed involvement of Village Pump, however there remains the issue of the WP:BLP policy violation adduced by the deleting editor, in respect of which he asked “why are you adding claims that living persons lost awards with no inline citations?” Out of the three Wikipedia policy violations adduced by the editor, only WP:BLP infraction mandates summary removal of a contribution 'without discussion'. Both WP:OR and WP:V, however, require only that the violation be flagged, since it would be clearly impossible for another editor to fix a problem, if the contribution manifesting the problem had been deleted, as has happened here. I cannot see where in the table there was any claim about a living person losing awards, and so this needs to be resolved before we can address the sources question. Otherwise the table will only be deleted again, if not by one of those present, then by another editor further down the track.
Regarding the sources question, under WP:V, a citation is required for any contribution that is "likely to be challenged". Common sense tells me that if a contribution was likely to be challenged, it would have been challenged a lot sooner than after 7 years and 2 million views, as for this table. Burden of proof has thereby already implicitly been satisfied by the table's longevity, thus a new burden of proof is incumbent upon whoever deletes it, viz. proof of policy violations. Moreover, if the action to delete any directory table that has no inline citations is upheld, then this will create a precedent that will impact not only every article linked to from this Awards table but practically every directory table on Wikipedia. As an example, AACTA Awards#List of AACTA ceremonies would need to be deleted under such an interpretation of the policy, because as a directory table, it hasn't got a single inline citation, since every cell drills down to another article where verification can be found. If on the other hand, it is flagged and time allowed for it to remain until inline citations can be added by drilling down and retrieving them and then copying back to the source table, then this will add roughly 100 citations to the AACTA Awards article, just on account of this table, taking the count from 64 that are already there, to 164 as a result of citation bloat. Some of these would also need to be copied back to the Priscilla Awards table. I cannot see how this article is improved by either deleting its Awards table so no-one can see it, thus no-one can improve it, or peppering the table with citations when this information is already present in the linked to articles. Chrisdevelop (talk) 01:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderator (Priscilla)
I have asked for comments at Village Pump, and I have received comments, including a pointer to a recently archived discussion, but the comments are inconclusive. I see four possible ways to resolve this dispute:
- 1. User:Koavf can agree to restore the table, on the grounds that it is not likely to be challenged, because it was not challenged for seven years until they removed it.
- 2. User:Chrisdevelop can agree to the removal of the table. This seems undesirable, because the table contains useful information, but it is one way to resolve the content dispute.
- 3. An editor can provide sources and restore the table. This will result in a large number of notes being added to the article. Articles that have tables often have large numbers of supporting notes. This is the most desirable resolution, but it requires work by a volunteer editor. Merely agreeing that sources should be added to the table is not a resolution because it makes the sourcing of the table Someone else's problem, which, as Doug Adams explains, is a method of cloaking the table, making it almost invisible, and it will be invisible until it is added to the article.
- 4. An RFC can be used to choose between option 1 and option 2. If an editor provides sources for the table, this stops the RFC.
Robert McClenon (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Does either editor want to agree to the other editor's solution? If not, does either editor have an option 5? If not, the editors should be ready to submit the issue to an RFC.
Be civil and concise. Many of the statements have been too long. Overly long statements make the editor feel better, but do not persuade the community better than concise statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Fourth statement by Chrisdevelop (Priscilla)
Fourth statement by Koavf (Priscilla)
"Does either editor want to agree to the other editor's solution?" I do not agree with solution 1, as I do not agree with inserting unsourced information into Wikipedia.
"If not, does either editor have an option 5?" I do not see another option--good summary, Robert.
"If not, the editors should be ready to submit the issue to an RFC." I am willing to have this go to an RfC.
Thanks for this. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Fifth statement by moderator (Priscilla)
The draft RFC is available for review at Talk:The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert/RFC One. I will consider proposed changes to the wording of the RFC before I move it to the article talk page. When it is moved to the article talk page, I will insert the {{RFC}} template which will activate it. Do not put your statements in the draft RFC at this time. It isn't the real thing yet, or, rather, it isn't in the real place yet. Any comments about the wording of the RFC should be made before I activate it. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Fifth statement by Chrisdevelop (Priscilla)
Fifth statement by Koavf (Priscilla)
Marriage in ancient Rome
– Discussion in progress.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Marriage in ancient Rome is marital monogamous for both men and women, but not sexual monogamous institution for men, ie., a wife can only have one sexual relationship at a time because of Augustus' Adultery laws, whereas married or unmarried, a Male's sexual activities with his slaves, mistress etc are not included in Adultery legislations, albeit in legal terms he can only take one woman as wife, while nothing preventing him from having sexual activities with other. The statement a man cannot have a wife and a concubine at the same time is not clear whether it existed before sixth century Justinian or not. It is well clearly said in the already cited works of Schiedel in Wikipedia article and in the acclaimed work of Judith, the Women and the law in the Roman Empire. The institution of marriage in Ancient Rome is marital monogamous that co existed with male polygyny.
But this contribution by me is repeatedly reverted and later blocked me for reinstating it, and no consensus has reached from the article's talk page.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk: Marriage in ancient Rome#Marriage_is_monogamous_with_male_polygyny
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
After coss checking with respective sources I have provided, reinstate the edits I have done if one sees my claim is valid
Summary of dispute by trekker
Summary of dispute by ifly6
Marriage in ancient Rome discussion
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages, and has not spelled the username of one of the other editors correctly. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- I am not able to tag user named ★Trekker here. May be be because of the preceding ★ star. അദ്വൈതൻ (talk) 16:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- @അദ്വൈതൻ, you do it like so: @StarTrekker. If you check the userpage you'll see the "actual" name, some of us like to decorate a bit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you @Gråbergs Gråa Sång:.★Trekker (talk) 13:20, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- @അദ്വൈതൻ, you do it like so: @StarTrekker. If you check the userpage you'll see the "actual" name, some of us like to decorate a bit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor still has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. If the filing editor wants moderated discussion, they must notify at least User:ifly6. User:StarTrekker has acknowledged having seen this posting. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
The Amazing Race 31
– New discussion.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- TheNewLayoutReallySucks (talk · contribs)
- Bgsu98 (talk · contribs)
- Sportsfan 1234 (talk · contribs)
- Masem (talk · contribs)
- 96.48.239.44 (talk · contribs)
- Xoruz (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Context: The Amazing Race is a competition that involves traveling through multiple countries during each show, and as travel is the main scope of the competition, the relevant Wikipedia pages quite often cover country visits that are notable, and have historically indicated when a country is visited for the first time. Example, Monaco had never been visited in the history of the show until season 26, so on "The Amazing Race 26" we indicate a "first-time visit to Monaco". It is also important to note that The Amazing Race is a franchise and international versions exist. FACT: In 2015, "The Amazing Race Vietnam 2015" was the first time The Amazing Race ever visited the country of Laos. FACT: In 2019, "The Amazing Race 31" made a second visit to Laos. This was the first time the ORIGINAL American version of the show visited the country. It was also the first time any Amazing Race had visited Uganda. Problem: On TAR31's Production section, it identifies this season as visiting Laos for the first time, which is a FALSE statement. Multiple users have attempted to reword the sentence to make it factually accurate, but other users continue to revert these changes back to the FALSE statement. It used to say "The Race traveled [...] including first time visits to Laos and Uganda," which is incorrect as TAR Vietnam 2015 is a "Race" that went to Laos previously. It now says "The Amazing Race 31 traveled [...] including first time visits to Laos and Uganda," which is still ambiguous and technically false information. Attempts to add additional qualifiers such as "Laos was previously on TARV" or "first-time visit for the American version" are consistently removed citing WP:SYNTH, which makes no sense. I don't care how the statement is adjusted one way or another, or if it's removed entirely, but I'm taking a stand against leaving FALSE information on the page. Please come up with a solution besides constantly reverting and telling us to sit down and shut up.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:The_Amazing_Race_31#Amazing_Race_Vietnam
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Find a way to change the statement so that it specifies that this is not the first time EVER that Laos was visited, using whatever language is necessary, instead of just the FALSE statement of "first-time visit to Laos". Or remove it entirely, though this would facilitate removing similar information on the other season pages, and I feel like if I just went ahead and did that I would get yelled at.