Talk:Barack Obama
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To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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Redundant discussions
In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.
Race
- Talk:Barack Obama/race
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race
Religion
Citizenship
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference
Full name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II
Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion about Obama's birthplace, citizenship, race/ethnicity, etc. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
If you want to read about where Obama was born and have concerns about it, read Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Citizenship facts, rumors and claims and in particular this source which is heavily utilized in the article.
Creating (yet more) links on the page
A number of organizations that Obama was involved in or acted on the board of directors for don't have hyperlinks. Example, the Center for Neighborhood Technology. I think it would be beneficial to give people access to that kind of thing, and most of them have either their own webpages or wikipedia pages, so why not link to them? Unfortunately because of the (necessary) lock on the page, it's difficult to add those links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealintomorrow (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 21:35, 4 March 2009. I wonder how fast this comment will be censored. :) Wikipedia is really getting be be a joke! Unfortunately, this is a really great concept being more and more poorly executed! I'll guess I go back to using Google to find facts, because I just don't feel Wikipedia is unbiased anymore. If they can work with respond acurately and forcefully to http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 then maybe the reputation can be rescued. Otherwise, Wikipedia will probably become something of a joke similiar to the Washington Post, et al, along with the accompanying drop in users, readers, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.236.112.195 (talk) 15:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Why isn't he called "Barack H. Obama"?
Like Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, James A. Garfield, Chester A. Arthur, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, and so on? 203.211.75.108 (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Pure stylistic choice, as far as I can tell. George W. Bush employed the middle initial primarily to distinguish him from his father. The others did it because it mainly because it sounds good (compare "John Kennedy", "John F. Kennedy"). Dcoetzee 05:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan & Bill Clinton aren't called by their middle names. We name articles by the most common usage. Barack Obama is more common than Barack H. Obama. Burner0718 JibbaJabba! 05:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Quick, without peaking, name the middle initials of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, or James Madison. I can't do it, but I'm sure some editors can. However, in any case, the simple fact is that different presidents (or those who write about them) have made slightly different choices about which parts of their names to use most commonly. Obama happens to be one with "middle name/initial usually omitted." LotLE×talk 05:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- None of those presidents had middle names.TomCat4680 (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Wilson did. It was Woodrow. It's of course not uncommon that people use their middle name as their first name Nil Einne (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but why do we call Adams "John Quincy Adams"? Are there other Adams to confuse him with? Why not just a middle initial? Truth be told there's no rhyme or reason. Padillah (talk) 15:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- His father, John Adams was the 2nd President 199.47.41.143 (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- What little faith I had in the American education system is plummeting quickly. As far as the rhyme or reason for the use of the middle name/initial on some presidents vs. others. You'd have to ask historians about that. The naming of our articles on the presidents seem to be inline with how they are referred to by historians and thus inline with the common names guideline. Barack H. Obama and Barack Hussein Obama are only common names amongst an extreme minority and thus the article is using his common name. --Bobblehead (rants) 16:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Funniest line of comments I've seen today... TastyCakes (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- What little faith I had in the American education system is plummeting quickly. As far as the rhyme or reason for the use of the middle name/initial on some presidents vs. others. You'd have to ask historians about that. The naming of our articles on the presidents seem to be inline with how they are referred to by historians and thus inline with the common names guideline. Barack H. Obama and Barack Hussein Obama are only common names amongst an extreme minority and thus the article is using his common name. --Bobblehead (rants) 16:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- His father, John Adams was the 2nd President 199.47.41.143 (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- None of those presidents had middle names.TomCat4680 (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- And, in a practical sense, there's no Barack W. Obama or Barack Q. Obama out there he's likely to be confused with. PhGustaf (talk) 05:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Just as an aside, many early presidents, including Abraham Lincoln, did not have middle names at all. Tad Lincoln (talk) 06:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, imagine how silly we would look if we had "Jimmy E. Carter" and "Bill J. Clinton". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would also point out that prior to W. George H.W. Bush was generally referred to simply as George Bush AFAIK. Even nowadays, I suspect if you say George Bush people are more likely to assume you mean H.W. then W. Nil Einne (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, imagine how silly we would look if we had "Jimmy E. Carter" and "Bill J. Clinton". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Just as an aside, many early presidents, including Abraham Lincoln, did not have middle names at all. Tad Lincoln (talk) 06:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Quick, without peaking, name the middle initials of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, or James Madison. I can't do it, but I'm sure some editors can. However, in any case, the simple fact is that different presidents (or those who write about them) have made slightly different choices about which parts of their names to use most commonly. Obama happens to be one with "middle name/initial usually omitted." LotLE×talk 05:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan & Bill Clinton aren't called by their middle names. We name articles by the most common usage. Barack Obama is more common than Barack H. Obama. Burner0718 JibbaJabba! 05:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
No, I cannot find sources, but the answer is simply the stylings in cycles. Notice that Grant, Hayes, Garfield and Arthur all served in the same historical clustering as post Civil War presidents, and that the other five you mentioned succeeded each other in a similar cluster of time. GW was to differentiate between his father, much as we do John Quincy Adams. Keegantalk 07:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
2 "References" sections
Shouldn't the one containing the {{reflist}} tag be called Notes per WP:CITE and for both consistency and accessibility. It does not make sense to have them both named the same thing. I didn't want to make the change without discussion. Calebrw (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed it to Notes and References. I don't see where this would have been a controversial change... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
- It was originally called notes. Some editor changed it without bothering to ask or to look and see that there was a separate section called "references". I thought I had reverted, but it seems that it didn't work for some reason. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks guys. Calebrw (talk) 20:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Occidental College
Does it really matter that he didn't graduate from there? He spent half his undergraduate career there. Why discount it just because it wasn't where he spent his final years? I don't think there's anything wrong with being inclusive here. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:15, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
- Everyone please stop reverting the article. Telling others to discuss the issue in your edit summary doesn't make it okay. Discuss the issue here yourself or shut the hell up. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:57, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
- According to the Alma mater article, that term applies to "the university or college from where a person has attended or graduated." Under that definition, Occidental College should be mentioned in the Infobox. SMP0328. (talk) 04:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly. And by the way, Equazcion, I edited this passage ONCE. That is nowhere near WP:3RR, in spirit or in reality. So the next time you crawl up on a high horse and decide to call someone out in an edit summary, it might be smart for you to get your facts straight. And I have now done #2, as this user's revert was clearly done in bad faith as an exercise in point-making, rather than in the spirit of improving the article. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was in error when I warned you of 3RR. That having been said, 3RR isn't absolute. You're not supposed to edit war in order to get your version of the article instated, but discuss instead. And there was absolutely nothing bad-faith about my edit. There's no need for accusations. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:22, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
- Tarc, in restoring the reference to Occidental College in the Infobox, referred to its removal as a "bad faith edit". I don't agree with that description. While I agree with the restoration, I believe the removal was in good faith. Whether "alma mater" included Occidental College was not clear. SMP0328. (talk) 04:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was specifically referring to Equazcion's edit, not the newbie's. The former was made to make a point about a (wrong) assumption about 3RR. Not about the subject matter itself. Tarc (talk) 05:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- It was an attempt to put a stop to the edit warring, not to make a point about 3RR. As someone relatively uninvolved I thought it might do the trick. If I were an admin I would've protected the article instead, but since I'm not, this seemed like the next best thing. There's nothing bad-faith about that. You'll notice I actually reverted to the version I disagree with. Besides which, if you think continuing the revert war based on the subject matter is somehow more proper, I'd say you're mistaken. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:37, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
- I was specifically referring to Equazcion's edit, not the newbie's. The former was made to make a point about a (wrong) assumption about 3RR. Not about the subject matter itself. Tarc (talk) 05:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Tarc, in restoring the reference to Occidental College in the Infobox, referred to its removal as a "bad faith edit". I don't agree with that description. While I agree with the restoration, I believe the removal was in good faith. Whether "alma mater" included Occidental College was not clear. SMP0328. (talk) 04:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was in error when I warned you of 3RR. That having been said, 3RR isn't absolute. You're not supposed to edit war in order to get your version of the article instated, but discuss instead. And there was absolutely nothing bad-faith about my edit. There's no need for accusations. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:22, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
- The best way to put a stop to the edit warring is simply not to edit it again, but to come here and discuss it. While it may be irking that editors put in their edit summaries: "please discuss in talk page first," it means just that. Why not discuss it before elevating the issue to a revert war. While WP:BOLD may mean at times go on in and fix what you see wrong, it also means that maybe it might be better to bring it to the talk page first and discuss it. Sometimes what you see wrong may not actually be wrong in the first place, or is a product of a long running argument that led to a consensus version. Changing things because you, as the editor, want to see it differently is not a good excuse to change things and can even be argued as just trying to make a WP:POINT. Brothejr (talk) 10:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sarah Palin attended FIVE different colleges for her B.A. alone, but the only one listed is the University of Idaho. Why? BECAUSE THAT'S HER ALMA MATER. Your alma mater is not "any school you attended", it's WHERE YOU GRADUATED FROM. I cannot find a single other Wikipedia page, besides Obama's, that features a school that person DID NOT graduate from as their "alma mater." It's ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.111.52 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Technically, an alma mater is anywhere you attended. Graduation is irrelevant. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Technically, that doesn't matter. The only places traditionally considered "alma mater" and the once places recorded in this spot on someone's Wiki page are where they graduated from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.111.52 (talk) 20:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- I Agree 72.207.65.76 (talk) 07:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
- Then someone needs to edit Wikipedia's definition of 'Alma Mater' then, as it says it refers to someone who attend or graduated from a school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.171.238.2 (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Technically, an alma mater is anywhere you attended. Graduation is irrelevant. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sarah Palin attended FIVE different colleges for her B.A. alone, but the only one listed is the University of Idaho. Why? BECAUSE THAT'S HER ALMA MATER. Your alma mater is not "any school you attended", it's WHERE YOU GRADUATED FROM. I cannot find a single other Wikipedia page, besides Obama's, that features a school that person DID NOT graduate from as their "alma mater." It's ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.111.52 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly. And by the way, Equazcion, I edited this passage ONCE. That is nowhere near WP:3RR, in spirit or in reality. So the next time you crawl up on a high horse and decide to call someone out in an edit summary, it might be smart for you to get your facts straight. And I have now done #2, as this user's revert was clearly done in bad faith as an exercise in point-making, rather than in the spirit of improving the article. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- According to the Alma mater article, that term applies to "the university or college from where a person has attended or graduated." Under that definition, Occidental College should be mentioned in the Infobox. SMP0328. (talk) 04:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Obama spent two years each at Occidental and Colombia. They were both important to his education and both deserve mention in the infobox. I bet Occidental considers him enough of an alumnus to ask him for money. PhGustaf (talk) 07:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
- For those arguing for one college equals one Alma Mater, then how about this real life example: A person goes into a program where they first start out in one college for two years. Then they finish their last two years in a different college graduating with a bachelors degree. After a couple more years they attended a third university and attained their master degree. Finally they went to a fourth university and graduated with a doctorate. They technically graduated all four colleges, receives alumni mailings from all four colleges, and thinks fondly of all four colleges. Which is their Alma Mater? (I personally know this person and I've heard of hundred and hundreds of others doing the same thing.) Brothejr (talk) 09:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Facts about Barack Obama
Collapsed and archived per above |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Why is wikipedia not allowing edits that question Obama's eligibility? It has been widely reported from many news sources and there are several court case at various levels of the legal system ranging up to the supreme court. Further his associations with Rev. Wright and Ayers are not allowed to be posted. Why is wikipedia allowing a whitewash of history? These are relevant to the historical account. Facts are facts no matter how inconvenient they may be to someones ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pt1604 (talk) 00:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The Chicago Tribune isn't a reliable source? Read Wikipedia's standard: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed. Guess what? Reliable sources have been used and it's still being edited in a tainted way. The entry should be flagged until bias is removed (bias from anything critical about Obama on his page) Now, read what else Wikipedia demands: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors. Does this apply to Obama or not? As the entry currently is displayed, bias is clearly showing by censoring ANY and ALL entries that may show controversy or negatively toward the President.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs)
I have restored the neutrality tag, because this discussion is ongoing. I've seen this discussion over at Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. As long as at least one editor believes the article violates NPOV, that tag must stay. SMP0328. (talk) 00:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
It makes no sense to apply NPOV when the info about Obama's ineligibility controversy is verifiable by linking it to Chicago Tribune, a reputable newspaper. If anything, it seems that leftist bias of an editor is preventing a discussion about a very important issue. It is hard to believe that one biased part of leftist "machine" can murder our quest to get to the full truth.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokietek (talk • contribs)
I propose implementing the solution to a similar problem at the Sixteenth Amendment article. I tried doing it, but was reverted. SMP0328. (talk) 02:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Neutrality dispute?The page is tagged, but I can't find any active discussion here. Am I missing something? Guettarda (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
So why isn't any negative or critical information allowed on the Obama page? As the previous poster stated, Ayers and Wright were legitimate election controversies. If Wikipedia censors only from the left, it is useless as a source.
Comments that Wikipedia is a whitewash
And yet as long as you separate ALL criticism from Obama's page, you are CENSORING his main page. Compromise: Why not have an entry entitled Criticisms and list all of that there? It appears that wikipedia is carrying obamas water. Pleanty of the "critics" claims about bush are STILL on his wikipedia page yet if you dare bring these you on obamas page you are banned? Shamefull. In fact why not just redirect the entire page to the whitehouse main page? Exactly. Why not remove anything critical of Bush while you're at it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs) Then why not give it a subset in the outline entitled Criticism or whatever you wish? You seem to have plenty of room for negative information concerning President Bush on his main page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs) This article is clearly a whitewash. I am not some partisan hack with a dog in this hunt either. I am an expat political atheist who can read. All of the censors should be ashamed of themselves. The Wright issue was one of the most discussed issues of the campaign. It's not even mentioned here. In fact there's not a single non-positive element mentioned in this entire article unless you count the mention of his smoking and that's not necessarily negative. It's as though the Obama campaign wrote it. Shame. Ikilled007 (talk) 03:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Your selective editing has extended ad infinitum into cyperspace, your credibility for all to seriously consider has now reached critical mass. read it here: http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 Furtive admirer (talk) 03:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
As mentioned from an article linked from the DrudgeReport, Wikipedia is accused of censorship. When I look at the two pages (Presidents Bush and Obama), that accusation seems accurate. There is a statement on Pres. Bush's page that states "Many accusations have been made against the administration[120] for allegedly misinforming the public and not having done enough to reduce carbon emissions and deter global warming.[121]" If this is OK, then why can't Pres Obama have a sentence "Many accusations have been made against President Obama that [insert accusation here, see rest of Talk for examples]." There are accusations. Fact. Those accusations have been reported by reputable sources. Fact. Is it a fact that Wikipedia staff are bias? LinuxSneaker (talk) 03:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Editors and administrators are suppressing dissent.....this is a very troubling trendI don't think all the name-calling is helpful here. We really should be rising above all that. Having said that, I compared the articles on the previous 4 presidents with this one and any objective observer can readily see that Obama is being treated differently. Unlike those other presidential articles, there is practically no discussion of any of the controversial issues surrounding Obama here. (Don't believe me? See the articles on Clinton and GHW Bush to compare/contrast.) Certainly these controversial topics warrant their own articles, but complete censorship of any mention of these controversies or link to the ancillary articles in the main article damages Wiki's reputation, making this article look like a fluff piece and leaving the controlling administrators wide open to NPOV charges. One of the underlying principles of Wikipedia is that we should be writing these articles from the standpoint of consensus, and clearly consensus is lacking in the way this article has been handled. I find it troubling when I see negative references to Wikipedia's credibility making their way into the media. It is important that we maintain NPOV in Wikipedia. But no matter my (or your) personal opinion of Obama, the most important point of these discussions is not the content of the article, rather it is the way that differing opinions are being handled by certain factions in the Wiki community. I find it VERY disturbing that questions about the conduct of certain administrators and editors and their NPOV or possible lack thereof are being swept under the rug without a meaningful discussion. The (quickly) deleted comments by a previous poster were unnecessarily inflammatory, but I must agree that certain editors involved with this article seem far too willing to use the "memory hole". Discussion?: yes! Consensus?: yes! NPOV?: yes! Blatant censorship?: I know what my answer is; what is yours? (Now we get to wait and see how long this discussion topic lasts before it, too, is deleted!) NDM (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Wikidemon: Please quit conducting your own edit war over the heading of my comment. Feel free to start your own comment section and give it any title you choose. If you feel you must continue to do so, perhaps we need to get an administrator involved to settle our dispute about this point. I have written my original comment in good faith and your changing of the heading of my comment is inappropriate as it tends to obscure the point I am making. I feel this falls under "Modifying User's comments." I must point out that I have not edited the main article itself, and your continued deletion of the title of my heading on the discussion page is vexatious....please stop. NDM (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
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Place of Birth
I know some people are making a fuss over this, but isn't his place of birth a documented and relevant fact? He was born in Honolulu, Hawaii and this is a proven fact, insofar as anyone's birthplace is a proven fact, at least. I think we should go ahead and flatly say he was born in Hawaii right at the top of the article. To do anything less or more would be a travesty. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 21:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Check out the first sentence of the Early life and career section. Opening sentences in the lead generally only include birth date. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- (ec)We do in the info box and the intro paragraphs. We even include refs. Yet, that does not stop the conspiracy theories from disputing that. It boils down to this: no matter what we say, show, or back up, they still will not believe it. Heck, even if Barack Obama would release his birth certificate, they still will not believe it and will proclaim it a fake. Sadly, there is not much we can do or say that will sway them. Brothejr (talk) 22:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
President Obama's Oratory Skills
Cultural and Political Image
I recommend an addition to the second paragraph of this section starting “Many have argued that Obama is and adept orator on par with other renowned speakers…” While this paragraph goes to great lengths to mention President Obama’s oratory skills, it does not address his use of Teleprompters. While it is expected that he would use it for state addresses, his constant use of them for small trivial appearances begins to question his oratory skills. There have been a few occasions were the Teleprompters had failed and the President was criticized for less than spectacular speeches. I would recommend adding the following after the first sentence of the second paragraph:
However, President Obama has also been recently criticized for the constant use of Teleprompters.
I would also recommend adding the following references:
Moesbob (talk) 02:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps add to the teleprompter article? This article is intended to set forth the facts concerning Obama, not criticisms, not supports. Just the facts, sir.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
How do the editors here respond to this? http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114
- Hi, if you read this talk page, you will see several discussions that touch on it. There is also a discussion going on at WP:AN/I. Please feel free to join in, but if you do, please sign your posts. Thanks!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would respond that it is biased, unreliably sourced, fringe nutjobbery that has no place in an legitimate encyclopedia such as this. Tarc (talk) 03:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- What, the teleprompter question? Anyway, teleprompters can be fun. I recall when LBJ was droning on through one of his boring speeches when he suddenly started to repeat himself - something had gone wrong on the teleprompter, and he had to improvise. One of the funnier moments in a Presidency that pretty much lacked in humor. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Article and talk page maintenance
Suggest IAR and semi protection of talk page
I'm aware of the policy that both an article and a talk page should be protected simultaneously. Due to the heavy vandalism of this talk page, suggest we IAR and semi protect this talk page anyway for a limited period, say 72 hours.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- There's a strategy in play, referenced on WP:ANI, to let as many of these lunatics as possible expose themselves here, so that the checkuser case can cast as broad a net as possible. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are Wikipedia Admins like Bugs allowed to resort to name calling? 64.53.138.18 (talk) 05:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- If I am an admin, then I am allowed. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are Wikipedia Admins like Bugs allowed to resort to name calling? 64.53.138.18 (talk) 05:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The talk page is the place for IPs and new users to point out errors on a semiprotected article. Sometimes they make good points, albeit not so much today. But I'm not in favor of disabling that feature. Now, if we could sell tickets to the talk page while the WND zoo is around... PhGustaf (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think what Bugsy meant was Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Barrack Obama. I'm all for cracking down on sockpuppetry, but the downside of leaving the page unprotected for that purpose is having to revert anti-Obama/Liberal/Wikipedia rants and other types of vandalism almost literally every five seconds, which is a real pain in the ass to do. --Whip it! Now whip it good! 04:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Maybe the user who requested leaving the shields down (was it Wikidemo?) should be consulted to see if he's got enough fish now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Gosh, who died and appointed me Wiki-dictator? It was just a suggestion. There are people around here who know a lot more than I do about CU and how to manage article melt-downs. But yes, I think we've had enough fun watching this. If there's sockpuppetry I'll bet we will find it at this point. If not, I think playing whack-a-mole with a swarm of dittoheads is not going to help the encyclopedia, and it will only give the dittoheads more to complain about. Wikidemon (talk) 05:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have posted it on the request for protection page. I asked for semi-protection. That should put the breaks on the IP's and the redlinks, anyway. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Semi-protection is warranted in this extreme case. No comment on the content of t6e article other than that it isn't as balanced as it could be. Enigmamsg 05:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have posted it on the request for protection page. I asked for semi-protection. That should put the breaks on the IP's and the redlinks, anyway. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Gosh, who died and appointed me Wiki-dictator? It was just a suggestion. There are people around here who know a lot more than I do about CU and how to manage article melt-downs. But yes, I think we've had enough fun watching this. If there's sockpuppetry I'll bet we will find it at this point. If not, I think playing whack-a-mole with a swarm of dittoheads is not going to help the encyclopedia, and it will only give the dittoheads more to complain about. Wikidemon (talk) 05:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Maybe the user who requested leaving the shields down (was it Wikidemo?) should be consulted to see if he's got enough fish now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think what Bugsy meant was Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Barrack Obama. I'm all for cracking down on sockpuppetry, but the downside of leaving the page unprotected for that purpose is having to revert anti-Obama/Liberal/Wikipedia rants and other types of vandalism almost literally every five seconds, which is a real pain in the ass to do. --Whip it! Now whip it good! 04:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The talk page is the place for IPs and new users to point out errors on a semiprotected article. Sometimes they make good points, albeit not so much today. But I'm not in favor of disabling that feature. Now, if we could sell tickets to the talk page while the WND zoo is around... PhGustaf (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think protecting might just give them something else to shout about - they do love a potential conspiracy. Better to just quietly revert and not create another cause. Mfield (talk) 06:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, it may be moving beyond the scope of checkuser at this point. As the Good Word trickles down from the WND/Drudge queen bees down on to the unwashed masses, it is likely going to be different people with the same agenda. There's already a topic over at the FreeRepublic ("Wikipedia Scrubs Ayers and Wright From Obama Biography", can't link directly) about this and how to hit protected pages. Tarc (talk) 05:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
De-collapsed FAQ; collapsed internal questions to make more adhd friendly
Since it's pretty clear that a lot of people are seemingly unable or unwilling to read the FAQ when it's collapsed, I've gone ahead and de-collapsed it, but made it quite a bit less space-consuming by collapsing the answers, leaving only the questions as headers to collapsible sections. Hopefully this will help a bit more. --slakr\ talk / 05:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's much better. It does take up a lot more vertical space, but that horse is out of the barn already, and people are more likely to read it if they can see which questions are addressed there. — Gavia immer (talk) 06:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Conspiracy theory article
Folks might want to have a look at the recent edit history of Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. I don't know if I'll be reverted again, but I have to go, and besides I'm at my third revert, although I think it's pretty clear that this stuff meets WP:FRINGE and that the overall consensus here is that it is, indeed, a fringe approach. Cosmic Latte (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Proposals to increase coverage of controveries
Comment by Skydiver99
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There isn't one mention of Ayers or Wright on this page, which is patently absurd. There are people more capable of fixing this than me, so anyone with the stones feel free to give it a whirl. Skydiver99 (talk) Frankly, this whole page reads like a member of Obama's staff wrote it. There is absolutely NOTHING whatsoever regarding criticism or negative campaign coverage, and it is capped with a section extolling his virtues as a public speaker. Seriously? This is bad even by biased standards. Skydiver99 (talk)
I'm aware of what happens to users who dare to modify Obama's page in any way that isn't visibly positive to him: they get banned. Honestly, does dishonesty on a forum such as Wikipedia ultimately serve the pro-Obama cause? All that does is establish certain supporters of his as unscrupulous. One way or another, dishonesty ultimately sabotages all that employ it, because the truth gets out. Now, am I saying that it is an objective fact that Obama is bad? No. I'm saying that this entry is squeaky clean and actually reads like an ADVERTISEMENT for him. His press people couldn't improve on it as it. That's just wrong and violates the spirit of Wikipedia. Skydiver99 (talk)
And BTW, there are ZERO mentions of Wright and Ayers on his presidential campaign pages, even though both received serious media attention. Skydiver99 (talk)
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Suggestion that fringe controversies be treated uniformly
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First of all I want to say that I don't think there's any question of President Obama's American citizenship. Also, in light of a recent and unfortunately controversial return to the discussion tonight, that my suggestion not be grouped with other since-archived proposals on the basis of redundancy. I am suggesting that either a brief mention or section be included on Barack Obama's main entry, or similar references be removed from articles that serve as paralleling examples. It was suggested elsewhere that the conspiracies compare to long-since refuted fringe theories regarding such things as the JFK assassination and the September 11 attacks and that their validity would share a similar fate. Yet, both conspiracies are documented -- albeit briefly -- on the main Wikipedia entries of these subjects. The September 11 attacks article has a small section referencing the theories. The John F. Kennedy assassination has a section referencing conspiracy theories. Even John F. Kennedy's main article mentions conspiracy theories in brief. These are much more publicized 'fringe theories' that have also been scrutinized to a much greater extent than this controversy, but which are given their place amongst the modern historical compilation on Wikipedia. In those terms, the question of Obama's citizenship is relevant enough to merit a mention on his main page, if only to redirect, as the other examples do, a reader to a more critical discussion -- and most likely refutation. To treat this case differently is indeed hypocritical, and only supports the claim that it's an example of politically biased censorship. That is what I have an issue with, because I would rather Wikipedia not fall under such negative perceptions. These are our Wikipedia Commons, and our knowledge-base, and while they should be dedicated first and foremost to the truth, an omission of historical elucidations serves only to deprive it. --Dan Lowe 06:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
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Comparison to standard/policy of George W. Bush Article
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The article on George W. Bush seems to mention, albeit briefly, at least one controversy that arose only in the context of Bush's campaign for the presidency:
It doesn't seem consistent to insist that all negative/controversial items that arose during Obama's campaign can ONLY be mentioned in articles about his campaign. Am I mistaken? Lawyer2b (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
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No Mention of Wright
While the policy in A5 (not mentioning "fairly minor issues [that had] no significant legal or mainstream political impact) would seem to keep any mention of Obama's citizenship controversy out of his article, I don't think the same can be said for his association with Reverend Wright and the church where he preached. Those had both significant and mainstream impact. Does someone disagree? Lawyer2b (talk) 09:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It's probably worth somewhere between two words and a sentence, as a matter of proportionality. It currently has a sentence, but in a footnote. If moved back into the main section it should be posed in a way that focuses on the relationship to Obama, and his decision to leave the church in light of the controversy, as opposed to focusing on Wright himself or the relatively modest campaign issue. However, it may be difficult to achieve any kind of consensus for a little while here given the editing issues.Wikidemon (talk) 10:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Suggest waiting a couple days for the wnd and drudge trolling to die down and then posting a proposed edit here for consensus discussion. cheers, --guyzero | talk 10:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- With the amount of press that this had, including Obama having to address this publicly, there must be some mention in the text itself, perhaps a sentence or two, with a wikilink or a {{main}}/{{see also}} to the proper article. While it should not, and cannot be allowed to take an undue role here, its only mention coming in a footnote smacks of POV hagiography which expressly violated WP:NPOV. -- Avi (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would respectfully recommend three mentions of Wright. First, as Obama's mentor. Obama himself said so, and Wright's role in Obama's person life, as marriage officiator, baptiser and spiritual advisor. Seocnd, "The Audacity of Hope" title comes from a speech from Wright. This should be mentioned. Third, the leaving of Wright's church because of a swell of controversy. These three points should be understood by the reader. It tells the full arc of Obama and Wright's relationship. By putting each point in the article in places where it relates, we can avoid POV as none of these ponts directly relate to the views and controversial aspects of Wright and therefore we can avoid making the page about Wright directly. Bytebear (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well if you feel those should be in the article, then you are going to need to find a couple sources to back each of those parts up. The ref's cannot be World News Daily, Free Republic, Blogs, etc. The ref must pass WP:RS and WP:V and if you are not sure, post it up on the RS/N for a check. Also, the ref's must exactly say each of those points, nothing can be implied. There cannot be any synthesis or original research. If you can find ref's that passes all then, post them here and we can discuss the changes. Brothejr (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I know this was probably missed in the edit warring, but Thatcher seems to have added a rather NPOV and reliably sourced mention of Wright into the Personal life and family section.[4] I'd say we keep it, personally.;) --Bobblehead (rants) 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yea, I saw that before I posted the above comment and I also agree with what Thatcher posted, but my comment was to Bytebear and anyone else who wanted to post much more about Wright in the article. Also, before I forget, we must not violate WP:WEIGHT when we think to add more information about Wright to the article. Brothejr (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Personally I think the controversy should go in political and cultural image, and the book title and the mentorship should go in the personal life. The same thing would be done with Ayers who is also missing. I will find the references if they are needed. Also for the WP:DUE, don't Ayers and Wright have their own articles for the controversies? That's pretty good for weight IMO. Soxwon (talk) 16:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, they do have there own articles. However, having their own articles is not a good argument for adding it here. As far as WP:WEIGHT is concerned, it has to be asked how much impact did these controversies have on Obama's life? When we talk about this, we don't mean what the WND, Drudge report, or any other right leaning internet publication mean's on what is/was important in Obama's life. Brothejr (talk) 16:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Personally I think the controversy should go in political and cultural image, and the book title and the mentorship should go in the personal life. The same thing would be done with Ayers who is also missing. I will find the references if they are needed. Also for the WP:DUE, don't Ayers and Wright have their own articles for the controversies? That's pretty good for weight IMO. Soxwon (talk) 16:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yea, I saw that before I posted the above comment and I also agree with what Thatcher posted, but my comment was to Bytebear and anyone else who wanted to post much more about Wright in the article. Also, before I forget, we must not violate WP:WEIGHT when we think to add more information about Wright to the article. Brothejr (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Is anyone disputing the facts of the three points I suggested? i think we need to first decide what to include, and then decide how to include it. Bytebear (talk) 16:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- We are neither proving or disproving anything. It is up to you to prove those points and it is also up to you to provide the refs to back up the point. You will get no consensus or anything likewise without first doing that. Brothejr (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Here are references. I would prefer the first two points have references that are unrelated to Obama's denoouncement of Wright, but they are harder to find. I believe the NYTimes did a series of articles on Obama prior to the blow up, that would be better, and sources on the "Audacity of Hope" should reveal some Wright sources that are more neutral.
- 1. Obama's mentor, officiator at wedding and baptizer of children. This is in his own biographies, as well as documented here [5], [6] and [7]
- 2. The Audacity of Hope was a speech given by Wright, to which Obama himself gives credit in his own book. A self source should be sufficient, but here are more [8] [9] [10]
- 3. The controversy of leaving the church can be found everywhere, but here are some very reliable sources: [11] [12]
- Regards. Bytebear (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Some of those ref's are a little questionable as they are mostly editorials which is an older version of a blog. But either way, next comes the question of WP:WEIGHT. If you read the article, you will see that there is already a mention of Wright and that there is/was a controversy surrounding him, including a link. So the question now is, you the editor/proposer, need to state the reason for enlarging and expanding the portion. Giving the controversy more weight then might be apparent. Also, you might want to build a consensus and have a good argument/reasoning behind the proposed addition that would make it stick within the article. Brothejr (talk) 18:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I said in my summary that better referrences were needed, but this is just for fact checking. 1) Obama did call Wright his mentor, was married by Wright, his children were baptized by Wright. He did get the title "The Audacity of Hope" from Wright's sermon and there was a plethora of controversy that caused Obama to renounce Wright. All of these are facts. That the referrences I cited are questionable is immaterial to the facts, and better referrences can be found. But that does not change the fact that these issues must be presenented in the article. As to the article NOW stating some of this, that wasn't the case this morning. As to undue weight, I don't know how you can diminish the fact that this man WAS Obama's spiritual mentor. He was a major figure in the life of Obama for nearly 30 years. This cannot be ignored or diminished. Bytebear (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, Obama has mentioned Wright as one of his greatest influences: [13]. I think that the controversy should go in the political section, but the relationship in the personal for as Obama explicitly said, he didn't seek Wright for politics. Soxwon (talk) 19:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Excellent referrence. I would recommend adding something about the title of Obama's book coming from his mentor and maybe even a quote from Obama about his influence. This does not need to be tied to the controversy, but it will give readers an understanding of Wright's role in Obama and particularly his book. Bytebear (talk) 19:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, Obama has mentioned Wright as one of his greatest influences: [13]. I think that the controversy should go in the political section, but the relationship in the personal for as Obama explicitly said, he didn't seek Wright for politics. Soxwon (talk) 19:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I said in my summary that better referrences were needed, but this is just for fact checking. 1) Obama did call Wright his mentor, was married by Wright, his children were baptized by Wright. He did get the title "The Audacity of Hope" from Wright's sermon and there was a plethora of controversy that caused Obama to renounce Wright. All of these are facts. That the referrences I cited are questionable is immaterial to the facts, and better referrences can be found. But that does not change the fact that these issues must be presenented in the article. As to the article NOW stating some of this, that wasn't the case this morning. As to undue weight, I don't know how you can diminish the fact that this man WAS Obama's spiritual mentor. He was a major figure in the life of Obama for nearly 30 years. This cannot be ignored or diminished. Bytebear (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Some of those ref's are a little questionable as they are mostly editorials which is an older version of a blog. But either way, next comes the question of WP:WEIGHT. If you read the article, you will see that there is already a mention of Wright and that there is/was a controversy surrounding him, including a link. So the question now is, you the editor/proposer, need to state the reason for enlarging and expanding the portion. Giving the controversy more weight then might be apparent. Also, you might want to build a consensus and have a good argument/reasoning behind the proposed addition that would make it stick within the article. Brothejr (talk) 18:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- We are neither proving or disproving anything. It is up to you to prove those points and it is also up to you to provide the refs to back up the point. You will get no consensus or anything likewise without first doing that. Brothejr (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I know this was probably missed in the edit warring, but Thatcher seems to have added a rather NPOV and reliably sourced mention of Wright into the Personal life and family section.[4] I'd say we keep it, personally.;) --Bobblehead (rants) 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well if you feel those should be in the article, then you are going to need to find a couple sources to back each of those parts up. The ref's cannot be World News Daily, Free Republic, Blogs, etc. The ref must pass WP:RS and WP:V and if you are not sure, post it up on the RS/N for a check. Also, the ref's must exactly say each of those points, nothing can be implied. There cannot be any synthesis or original research. If you can find ref's that passes all then, post them here and we can discuss the changes. Brothejr (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would respectfully recommend three mentions of Wright. First, as Obama's mentor. Obama himself said so, and Wright's role in Obama's person life, as marriage officiator, baptiser and spiritual advisor. Seocnd, "The Audacity of Hope" title comes from a speech from Wright. This should be mentioned. Third, the leaving of Wright's church because of a swell of controversy. These three points should be understood by the reader. It tells the full arc of Obama and Wright's relationship. By putting each point in the article in places where it relates, we can avoid POV as none of these ponts directly relate to the views and controversial aspects of Wright and therefore we can avoid making the page about Wright directly. Bytebear (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the latest comment by Bytebear. The premise of this section is a little bit moot - the article now mentions Wright in the main body rather than the footnote. Overall, election-year issues are going to grow more and more distant, and proportionately less important, as events of state happen and the time of presidency lengthens. Obama seems to be a religious man, and also connected in his early career with black empowerment, and as noted saw Wright as an inspiration and perhaps a mentor... I'm not arguing the specifics but it seems that Wright and the church were important to him for a significant part of his life, and that his break from the church was a significant life event. I imagine that a totally neutral author 100 years from now would probably devote 1/4 to 1/2 a chapter in a 2 volume book to this. So I personally think it is a reasonable request to treat the issue in some more depth as a personal / biographical issue. Sourced, neutral, and of due weight, obviously. This is not an exercise in inserting information just to be negative, but getting the story right.Wikidemon (talk) 21:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Other articles contain controversy sections with no apparent attempt by editors to remove them or incorporate them into the article. Either such a section should be introduced into this article or any editor should be allowed to delete such a section from any other article. Ejnogarb (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- As per WP:CSECTION, your assertion is not correct Soxwon (talk) 22:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Other articles contain controversy sections with no apparent attempt by editors to remove them or incorporate them into the article. Either such a section should be introduced into this article or any editor should be allowed to delete such a section from any other article. Ejnogarb (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Ayers
We might mention him too, though only that he was a manufactured controversy during the course of the election. Soxwon (talk) 18:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Again, the Undue Weight issue. Did he have an important impact on Barack Obama's life. If you listen to WND, Drudge report, and other such very conservative blogs/news, then yes. However, the majority of reliable sources have dismissed the claims and have stated that Ayers had very little to no impact to BO's life. This controversy is mentioned in the election article, but it does not have enough weight to merit a mention, even a dismissive mention, in this summary style BLP. Brothejr (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Idk, I mean the extent has definitely been blown out of proportion by the fringe. However, even http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/07/obama.ayers/index.htmlreported there was a definite connection. Soxwon (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- But the question still is, is that connection strong enough to merit a mention on the main article that covers the major parts of his life? If you listen to WND and such, then yes, but if you read the CNN and other RS's then no. Brothejr (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the might, plz stop lumping me in w/them, it's starting to get insulting. I brought it up to A) satisfy the wingnuts and B) make sure covered all the bases so this convo can be Rfc. Soxwon (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry if what I wrote seemed like that. I was not trying to lump you in and I was not trying to insult you. I figured that's what you were doing and wanted to post that on. Either way, nothing will really satisfy the wingnuts until this article digresses to the level of conservapedia's article. Brothejr (talk) 19:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the might, plz stop lumping me in w/them, it's starting to get insulting. I brought it up to A) satisfy the wingnuts and B) make sure covered all the bases so this convo can be Rfc. Soxwon (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- But the question still is, is that connection strong enough to merit a mention on the main article that covers the major parts of his life? If you listen to WND and such, then yes, but if you read the CNN and other RS's then no. Brothejr (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Idk, I mean the extent has definitely been blown out of proportion by the fringe. However, even http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/07/obama.ayers/index.htmlreported there was a definite connection. Soxwon (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It really depends on who you talk to. The mainstream media did not press the issue, but some very credible journalists also criticided them for that. It isn't just "right wing nuts" who think that Ayers was downplayed by the media, and it isn't just conservatives who think the connections to Ayers are significant. This issue does lead into bias in the media, and to whether Ayers had a bigger role in the life of Obama than is generally reported. Certainly it started out as a non-issue until it was discovered that Obama not only knew Ayers, but was on boards with him. To say it bears no weight on the life of Obama and should not be mentioned is to give it too little weight. It can certainly be preseneted in a neutral way, giving the facts, and Obama's reaction to those facts, but it really cannot be ignored. Bytebear (talk) 19:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with that reasoning is that we don't have anyone who substantiates a strong or important personal relationship, or someone who can prove he was important to his ideology or political career. Sure they served on the same board, but that really proves nothing significant. Soxwon (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- We have some of that, but not as much as we should have. That is the fault of the mainstream media for not doing their jobs. They were too busy digging up dirt on Joe the Plumber to look deeper at the Ayers connection. But there are still significant sources. It is significant, far more than what Joe's real name is. Bytebear (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The strange thing is that they did dig deep into it and found nothing or very little. The only people who saw anything deep in it are those of the right. Those refs also said that too. Brothejr (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I will do some research on that. Not all sources are from the right. Certainly CNN and WSJ did some stories on Ayers and Obama. Sure MSNBC and the NYTimes ignored the connections as best they could, but there is far more evidence of a personal conneciton, and more importantly a political connection than you lead me to believe. For one, Obama did start his political carreer announcing his State Senate race from the home of Ayers. Bytebear (talk) 19:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The strange thing is that they did dig deep into it and found nothing or very little. The only people who saw anything deep in it are those of the right. Those refs also said that too. Brothejr (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- We have some of that, but not as much as we should have. That is the fault of the mainstream media for not doing their jobs. They were too busy digging up dirt on Joe the Plumber to look deeper at the Ayers connection. But there are still significant sources. It is significant, far more than what Joe's real name is. Bytebear (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with that reasoning is that we don't have anyone who substantiates a strong or important personal relationship, or someone who can prove he was important to his ideology or political career. Sure they served on the same board, but that really proves nothing significant. Soxwon (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It really depends on who you talk to. The mainstream media did not press the issue, but some very credible journalists also criticided them for that. It isn't just "right wing nuts" who think that Ayers was downplayed by the media, and it isn't just conservatives who think the connections to Ayers are significant. This issue does lead into bias in the media, and to whether Ayers had a bigger role in the life of Obama than is generally reported. Certainly it started out as a non-issue until it was discovered that Obama not only knew Ayers, but was on boards with him. To say it bears no weight on the life of Obama and should not be mentioned is to give it too little weight. It can certainly be preseneted in a neutral way, giving the facts, and Obama's reaction to those facts, but it really cannot be ignored. Bytebear (talk) 19:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The thing is though, wherever Obama announced his State Senate run from is only important to fringe right-wingers, not to mainstream, reliably sourced media. That is why it does not appear here, it is of no relevance to the man's biography. It is only important to those seeking to get their "OMG MARXIST!" gotchas in. Tarc (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That is simply not true. A 2 second google search finds this article [14] which is not from a "right wing nutjob." I will find more if you like. Bytebear (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it is quite true. That an issue appears in a reliable source is one thing, but there are other concerns to satisfy. Have a read through WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, and WP:FRINGE sometime. Tarc (talk) 19:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That is simply not true. A 2 second google search finds this article [14] which is not from a "right wing nutjob." I will find more if you like. Bytebear (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The thing is though, wherever Obama announced his State Senate run from is only important to fringe right-wingers, not to mainstream, reliably sourced media. That is why it does not appear here, it is of no relevance to the man's biography. It is only important to those seeking to get their "OMG MARXIST!" gotchas in. Tarc (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) And also, we need to avoid reading our own interpretation wtih WP:OR. As far as I've seen there hasn't been anything that really ties him in with Obama as a person (at least in a deep enough way to impact the article). Sure Ayers made some mistakes, but that doesn't mean his association with Obama makes it something of importance to Obama. As for the ppl who keep saying it's on Ayers and Wright, well duh, for the most part no one would know about them if it weren't for Obama. However, Obama is certainly well known w/o them. Soxwon (talk) 20:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- saying Ayers "made some mistakes" is a gross understatement. There is a lot of talk about fring theories here. It is not a fringe theory that Obama announced his candidacy for State Senate in the home of William Ayers, so let's just put that concept to rest. As to the influence of Ayers on Obama, that is for the reader to decide,but we cannot and should not ignore the fact that Obama and Ayers not only knew each other, but served on poltically active boards together. NPOV is not about hiding facts, but making sure that all the important details are balanced, including Obama's renoucement of Ayers radical activities. But the point still stands that Obama and Ayers did have political ties, and there are reliable sources who have commented on those ties, not as just part of the campaign, but as a history and makeup of the meteoric rise of the current president. Bytebear (talk) 20:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- He also had ties with Blagoyavitch, but you don't see that heavily linked here either. The point is, it's not enough to say they were active on the same boards. Obama was in Congress with some of the biggest crooks, does that make him guilty by association? Ayer's past was not exactly famous and if he was a prominent member of the community then it would make sense to make the announcement among ppl who were active (other big wigs were there). Everything that is claimed can be refuted w/o stretching it too far. That means that asserting it as having significance is WP:OR Soxwon (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- But I don't have to resort to WP:OR on this topic. There are plenty of referrences from reliable sources. The relationship with Ayers goes beyond his role in congress. In fact it predates it. He didn't work with Ayers because he had to. He chose to. If there are as many referrences to Blago, then it should be included too. Your comparison just doesn't hold water. Bytebear (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oh but it does. It is conviction by association. I can provide just as many sites saying he associated with Blagoyavitch and associated with Congress. When they happen is of no concern. My question, how much of this was Obama's personal opinion and how much was it a choice by him, rather than another political decision. Comments like yours would go in the election section. There has to be PROOF that he and Ayers had a connection for it to go in Obama's bio. Soxwon (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- But I don't have to resort to WP:OR on this topic. There are plenty of referrences from reliable sources. The relationship with Ayers goes beyond his role in congress. In fact it predates it. He didn't work with Ayers because he had to. He chose to. If there are as many referrences to Blago, then it should be included too. Your comparison just doesn't hold water. Bytebear (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- He also had ties with Blagoyavitch, but you don't see that heavily linked here either. The point is, it's not enough to say they were active on the same boards. Obama was in Congress with some of the biggest crooks, does that make him guilty by association? Ayer's past was not exactly famous and if he was a prominent member of the community then it would make sense to make the announcement among ppl who were active (other big wigs were there). Everything that is claimed can be refuted w/o stretching it too far. That means that asserting it as having significance is WP:OR Soxwon (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- FYI: I didn't see this mentioned, so just a head's up that Fox News has an article prominently on their main page that discusses Wikipedia's handling of this issue. --12.193.27.158 (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- They make very valid points about how we are trying to avoid bias, and in doing so, leaving out important documented facts. Lets just step back for a second... WP:UNDUE: Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. WP:FRINGE:In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory. I believe all of these very relevant, negative things can be added with neutrality, lets not forget there is PLENTY of unbiased positive information(WP:UNDUE). Just a thought. Darcstars (talk) 20:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- FYI: I didn't see this mentioned, so just a head's up that Fox News has an article prominently on their main page that discusses Wikipedia's handling of this issue. --12.193.27.158 (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Writing articles is not a matter of balancing positive and negative information to reach a predetermined level of positive and negative. We are simply telling the story of a person's life. Nothing new has come to light since consensus was reached that Ayers occupies too little of a role in Obama's life and career (per weight of the sources) to justify a mention in this article, so I see no reason to reconsider at this time and if I did I would likely continue to oppose mentioning Ayers on those grounds. The Obama/Ayers connection is minimal, no more than Obama's connection with hundreds of other people. The number of neutral, reliable sources that cover that connection is minimal, far less than the sourcing of nearly any other item on the bio page. Most of the reliable sources that do cover it treat it not as a biographical topic, or a legitimate controversy or scandal, but as election-year campaigning. Hence, well-sourced material belongs in articles related to the campaign. There is also a pretty good article devoted entirely to the campaign issue. Tagging this article with that one does not increase the reader's understanding of who Obama is, what his life has been about, or his career as a politician. It always was, and remains, primarily a partisan issue that is a lot more important to the more extreme opponents of Obama than anyone else.Wikidemon (talk) 21:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly, they're trying to make his chance workings with a man whose past was not that prominent into an issue that supposedly had life altering affects. I just don't see that here. Soxwon (talk) 21:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Point well taken, however, I agree that writing articles is not about a "balance" of positive and negative information, it really has nothing to do with a balance. It has to do with neutrality, which is the point. WP:UNDUE: Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. I know this doesn't change anything. Because there is almost nothing neutral about any one persons Wikipedia article. Thats just how it is. And thats the last thing I will say. Darcstars (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I completely disagree that Ayers is not important to the life of Obama. He clearly worked with Ayers prior to entering politics, and launched his political career from Ayers' home. The article puts major acolades on Obama's early efforts as a community organizor. Well, much of that was in commitees that included Ayers. Clearly there was enough of a conneciton that Obama chose to use Ayers' home as a launching pad for his politcal ambitions. And that connection came back to haunt him in a very big way. Remember, the Ayers connection came before he won the nomination, so it isn't just "right wing wackos" who wanted to know more about this association and it was covered by much of the mainstream media. I think a simple sentence like "Obama announced his intentions to run for State Senate at the home of William Ayers, a prominant, yet controversial figure in Chicago politics. This association would become a major point of contention when Obama later would run for President." Bytebear (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The sources don't back up a claim that Ayers was important to Obama, not unless you go to anti-Obama election year partisanship. The claim that Ayers launched Obama's career was shown to be bunk, a deliberate misrepresentation of what a single person said in a blog post, and is not repeated in any reliable source. The supposed connection and contrived scandal about it, part of a larger effort to paint Obama as some kind of terrorist sympathizer, fizzled out and got very little traction even in the election. It certainly did not stick in reality or in public perception as a defining issue for Obama.Wikidemon (talk) 21:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I completely disagree that Ayers is not important to the life of Obama. He clearly worked with Ayers prior to entering politics, and launched his political career from Ayers' home. The article puts major acolades on Obama's early efforts as a community organizor. Well, much of that was in commitees that included Ayers. Clearly there was enough of a conneciton that Obama chose to use Ayers' home as a launching pad for his politcal ambitions. And that connection came back to haunt him in a very big way. Remember, the Ayers connection came before he won the nomination, so it isn't just "right wing wackos" who wanted to know more about this association and it was covered by much of the mainstream media. I think a simple sentence like "Obama announced his intentions to run for State Senate at the home of William Ayers, a prominant, yet controversial figure in Chicago politics. This association would become a major point of contention when Obama later would run for President." Bytebear (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
A common Logical Fallacy: Association Guilt.
- Once again, that simply isn't true. There is no verifiable source that says it's "Bunk" and even if there was, it would be opinion anyway. Ayers association was covered by mainstream reliable sources. Nothing in the sentence I proposed was untrue. And it is a very neutral way to cover the aspects of Ayers, without resorting to giving opinions as to whether the association was "bunk" or not. also, Wikipedia does not deal with "public perception" but with fact. The fact is, Obama did associate with Ayers, and that association caused a stir. There is nothing in those statements that talks about "Guilt by association. It is simply a statement of fact. Bytebear (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It is Association Guilt, Obama served on a board, Ayers served on that board. Therefore Ayers and Obama must have been friends/mentor/helped Obama launch career etc. Soxwon (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, the facts do not state anything about Obama's guilt of anything. Please read my suggested sentence again. Bytebear (talk) 21:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why is it so important then that it be mentioned? Soxwon (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Because it is a fact. Why do you want to supress facts? Bytebear (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't, but why is it notable? Soxwon (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It is notable because the mainstream press covered it. It is notable because it was a major issue in the 2008 election. It is notable because it goes toward the early history of Obama as a community organizer. That's why. Bytebear (talk) 21:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Those first two are notable for an election article, not here. The third, why is it so important to his early history? He had to start somewhere. Soxwon (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Right now, his election is important. Maybe in 30 years it will be less so, but clearly people are reading about Obama because of the recent election, so that makes the first two points noteworthy. As for the third point, yes, he did have to start from somewhere. he started embroyaled in Chicago politics, which includes Ayers, and your point seems to make mine, that that "somewhere" should not be a mystery. Bytebear (talk) 22:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly, "which includes Ayers," yet he is being singled out. Why? Not b/c he had any special influence on Obama, or lasting impression, but b/c of a chance association and b/c of who Ayers is. As for the election, Joe the Plumber seemed to do more harm to Obama than Ayers (certainly more mentionin the mainstream press), yet Ayers is the one getting pushed. WP:UNDUE anyone? I rest my case. Soxwon (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- He is being singled out for several reasons 1) he is far more controversial than anyone else Obama associated with 2) Obama started his political career in Ayers' home, 3) he was on boards that Ayers headed, giving insight into who Obama chose to associate with and therefore insight into his own polticial philosophies. As for Joe the Plumber, isn't that the point. Joe got far more scrutiny for asking one tough question to Obama than Ayers got altogheter. If the mainstream media had spent half the effort they did on Joe, looking into Ayers, we would have far more answers as to Obama's relationship with him. But as it is, most of the big media outlets ignored Ayers until forced by the controversy to take deeper looks, but even then, they were very apologetic in nature. Because the mainstream media dropped the ball for whatever reason, that does not make the issue moot. I would recommend reading anything by Bernard Goldburg if you want more insight in the bias of the media. Bytebear (talk) 22:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly, "which includes Ayers," yet he is being singled out. Why? Not b/c he had any special influence on Obama, or lasting impression, but b/c of a chance association and b/c of who Ayers is. As for the election, Joe the Plumber seemed to do more harm to Obama than Ayers (certainly more mentionin the mainstream press), yet Ayers is the one getting pushed. WP:UNDUE anyone? I rest my case. Soxwon (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Right now, his election is important. Maybe in 30 years it will be less so, but clearly people are reading about Obama because of the recent election, so that makes the first two points noteworthy. As for the third point, yes, he did have to start from somewhere. he started embroyaled in Chicago politics, which includes Ayers, and your point seems to make mine, that that "somewhere" should not be a mystery. Bytebear (talk) 22:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Those first two are notable for an election article, not here. The third, why is it so important to his early history? He had to start somewhere. Soxwon (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It is notable because the mainstream press covered it. It is notable because it was a major issue in the 2008 election. It is notable because it goes toward the early history of Obama as a community organizer. That's why. Bytebear (talk) 21:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't, but why is it notable? Soxwon (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Because it is a fact. Why do you want to supress facts? Bytebear (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why is it so important then that it be mentioned? Soxwon (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, the facts do not state anything about Obama's guilt of anything. Please read my suggested sentence again. Bytebear (talk) 21:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It is Association Guilt, Obama served on a board, Ayers served on that board. Therefore Ayers and Obama must have been friends/mentor/helped Obama launch career etc. Soxwon (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Once again, that simply isn't true. There is no verifiable source that says it's "Bunk" and even if there was, it would be opinion anyway. Ayers association was covered by mainstream reliable sources. Nothing in the sentence I proposed was untrue. And it is a very neutral way to cover the aspects of Ayers, without resorting to giving opinions as to whether the association was "bunk" or not. also, Wikipedia does not deal with "public perception" but with fact. The fact is, Obama did associate with Ayers, and that association caused a stir. There is nothing in those statements that talks about "Guilt by association. It is simply a statement of fact. Bytebear (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- You're missing the point, you have no PROOF that he had a major impact on Obama other than circumstantial. Soxwon (talk) 22:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The mainstream press did not cover the Ayers/Obama thing to any degree, even as an election matter. That's the point. If it had been worth talking about they would have talked about it. It's not up to us to highlight something, particularly a political smear, that does not seem to matter much except to bloggers, partisans, etc. Back to the supposed launching of Obama's career, that is debunked in mainstream sources and not as a matter of opinion. They trace it to a blog post by Maria Warren meant as a snark attack on Ayers and Dohrn's arrogance: ("When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. They were launching him--introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.") The fact check sites traced how Warren's comment got picked up and perverted into a claim that Ayers launched Obama's political career, which is plainly untrue - among other things he was already a politician. The Chicago Sun-Times piece you (Bytebear) mention doesn't say they launched his career either, it says they introduced him to their neighbors in a "meet-and-greet". Others call it a "tea". None of this supports any coverage of that meeting in the article. You would have to find substantial, real sourcing. But we've dealt with all this before on this page, several dozen times, with sockpuppets thrown in, and I don't see any point dealing with it again now.Wikidemon (talk) 22:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Wikilinking
I am going to make the edit that wikilinks Jeremiah Wright in the article. If anyone feels that this is an abuse of admin privileges instead of a janitorial correction, I will not contest a reversion. I will question their judgment, however -- Avi (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think it may already have been added Avi. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Looks fine to me...do be careful out there but I can tell you're making a noncontroversial copyedit-type thing. Incidentally, if anyone can hear this amidst all the noise I agree with the way you made the content edits to bring that section back out of the footnote and into the main body.Wikidemon (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Give credit where credit is due, I believe that was Thatcher; it definitely was not me. -- Avi (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I added it and the article was only semi at the time. Thatcher 18:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Okay then, I am fine with Thatcher's edit :) I've evaluated it as best I can strictly from its encyclopedic value, and quite apart from any of the debate swirling around the material better informs the reader when in the body of the article. Wikidemon (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I added it and the article was only semi at the time. Thatcher 18:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Give credit where credit is due, I believe that was Thatcher; it definitely was not me. -- Avi (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Looks fine to me...do be careful out there but I can tell you're making a noncontroversial copyedit-type thing. Incidentally, if anyone can hear this amidst all the noise I agree with the way you made the content edits to bring that section back out of the footnote and into the main body.Wikidemon (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Presidents
I am new to Wikipedia I have read all the rules and regulations.My purpose of coming here was to read about American Presidents .I first read about the 43rd President George Walker Bush and then the 44th President Barack Obama ,[no middle name ?,] Anyone reading about Obama and not knowing his history would think he is a Saint,as opposed to Bush where every rumor and innuendo against his character is included.Shouldn't Obama admitting to alchohol and drug abuse and his association with anti American zealots and convicted criminals be included .You have not published a fair and balanced portayal of both men.You have contravened a host of your own rules and regulations and make me wonder about your objectivity and veracity of your entire web site. Jock311 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)]
- If that is your assessment, I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood Wikipedia's rules and guidelines. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Give him a break, Scjessey. If he's new and yet has read all of them, he must have read at an average of, uh ... how many kilobytes per second? -- Hoary (talk) 15:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- To be fair Bush was President for eight very controversial years. Obama's been President for a month and a half. You wonder why there's more in Bushs' article? Could it be that bush was President for 64 times longer than Obama? Give him a minute. Padillah (talk) 15:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- George W. Bush is at it's current location because of his father George H. W. Bush. If GWB's father had not been president as well, it's likely GWB's article would be located at George Bush, but in order to disambiguate the two articles from each other, we had to create separate articles and chose a more precise name for their articles. You'll also notice the first sentence in this article where it rather clearly starts off with Barack Hussein Obama II. Thanks for playing though. --Bobblehead (rants) 15:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
That is a load and you all know it. There is a ton of stuff on Obama that you are excluding because of bias. IF you feel that the negative stuff should be removed from his article, you need to remove it from Bush's also. Link it to another page concerning controversies with both men, but claiming that the reason you have so much stuff on Bush is because of his "eight very controversial years" shows your bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
New section: first African-American
It is a misrepresentation that Barack Obama is the first African-American to become President of the United States. He is the first bi-racial man to become the president of the United States. This is verifiable through the fact that his mother was Caucasian. Michelle Obama is the first African-American to be the First Lady. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elsie4120 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It is how he is commonly referred to, and he has never indicated he prefers another descriptor. We might as well keep it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Please review the FAQ at the top of this page as well. Wikidemon (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Race is a social construct which depends on self-indentification. Obama identifies as African-American. Reliable sources call him the first African-American to be POTUS. We can only follow available, reliable sources. At the same time, his origins are clear in the article. Guettarda (talk) 13:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- As has been said around eleventy-billion times, the "African American" designation comes from the preponderance of reliable sources that refer to Obama in this way. Some reliable sources use the term "bi-racial" (or something similar), but most (several orders of magnitude more) use "African American", and Wikipedia must necessarily reflect this. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Obama calls himself African-American, and so does all the mainstream, non-fringe media, so that's what we call him. rootology (C)(T) 13:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- In addition, Elsie, have you read the FAQ at the top of this page? There is a useful discussion of this very point there.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Complaints about Wikipedia
Consensus overrides Wiki rules of notability?
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Facts be damned. Mob rule. 'Nuff said. Ynot4tony2 (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
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No Negative Information Mentioned....??
Collapsed and archived due to WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP. Closed this before it devolves into another rant. -- Brothejr (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC) |
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Screw You & Your Website Wikipedia!! You are a Liberal backed site, therefore do not show any negative information regarding this person's background. I am Boycotting your site since I know now that your site is bias, and will not show how dishonest and repulsive that the current President of the USA actually is!! World Net Daily has dedicated this report; http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 in your honor. Good Luck with your Liberal-Left Wing site you Bums!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.111.82 (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC) |
Fairness
As a computer medium that advocates accuracy, it is a concern to me that Obama has no critical views in his bio. I think it is a far strecth to make us believe their are none.From this day forward, I will no longer be using Wikipedia. If you fail to be accurate with something like this, I can only imagine what else you neglect. Information should be UNBIASED and because you cannot do this, I cannot use you.
Please feel free to read this and block it as I know you will.
Stewart
- Wikipedia will mourn the loss of your patronage. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'm with you, Stewart. The Wiki-bias are becoming well noted and documented outside of the Wiki Admins ability to censor. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 So for the same reason, I rarely bother to participle here any more, and should these remarks get me banned, I will consider it no great loss. --Mactographer (talk) 19:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Stewart as well. If you don't believe what Stewart is saying, please take a moment to look over GWB's bio and see if you think Obama's bio isn't a tad polished in comparison. Maybe there should be a few paragraphs dedicated to "public perception" as there is on the GWB bio, seeing as how Obama is generating quite a bit of outspoken criticism from people like Jim Cramer? For an administration that is particularly fond of singling out members of the meida for criticism, I think it's a perfectly acceptable request to include such information. --BlutoBlutarsky
- The problem with wiki Admins is that they have opinions. However, thats why these things are being discussed. You should keep that in mind. Contribution to the discussion is important to decide what is really relevant to Obamas political career (the point of his article). Key word is discussion. Darcstars (talk) 21:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Here is an example of a controversial subject that should be added today. "Obama calls into question some of George W. Bush's signing statements on the same day he lifted the controversial restrictions on embryonic stem cell research. Obama stated that he too would employ signing statements if he deems upon review that a portion of a bill is unconstitutional." SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/us/politics/10signing.html?ref=politics --EricMiles (talk) 21:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The fact that he is the first president that had relationships with all of these terrorists, people who didn't pay their taxes, people involved in political scams, or the fact that his father was black but ran away, that his brother is broke, that he is half white, that he got into his colleges because of racial quotas, that he plays his political roles and his speeches just like a communist revolutionist, jeez I could go on forever.
Grammar
If somebody who's not on a mission from some loony-right website may raise a point hereabouts....
"Neither Obama nor McCain are is a Martian." / "The race was between Obama and McCain, neither of whom were was Martian." / "Nixon bequeathed Liddy and Colson, neither of whom have has met the fate that he deserves." In my idiolect, anyway.
- Obama also introduced Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections and the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, neither of which have been signed into law.
In my idiolect, wrong. However, my learned friend Scjessey disagrees. Polite of him/her to compliment me on my faith; but faith be damned, it's grammar that interests me.
(I'd also stick a comma after "elections", or, better, put the phrase "a bill ... elections" in a pair of parentheses rather than commas.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Obama also introduced the Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, and the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, neither of which have been signed into law.
That's my take on the phrasing. Padillah (talk) 15:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- So you're saying Obama also introduced [A] and [B], neither of which have [...] is grammatically correct? If so, I can only say that your idiolect and mine are different. -- Hoary (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Neither" is singular and should take "has" in this case. You may now resume reverting SPA IPs. PhGustaf (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, it is not a straightforward as that. It appears that either usage is acceptable (info on this). -- Scjessey (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'm saying that either sounds fine, I lean towards HAVE because there are a plurality of bills so they have not been signed. That's my outlook, but I'm no English teacher so take it as the because it sounds better to my ear that it is. Padillah (talk) 17:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
"Neither of whom was/were" - does that not take "were" rather than "was" in the same way that you have "if I were" rather than "if I was"? Guettarda (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- "if I were" is subjunctive, "Neither of whom was" is not subjunctive in this case. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
←In American English "has" is the correct usage - as PhGustaf says, "neither" is singular, in the same way that "either" is. Try reading it as "either of which is/are a good bill" or "neither of which is/are a good bill". Americans would choose "is". I agree with Hoary that at least commas are needed around the description of the first bill, but I think that parens would be better, because even with the necessary comma after "elections" it can be misread as meaning three bills, not two bills. And since this is all in the past, why are we not saying "was" rather than "has been"? So:
Obama also introduced the Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act (a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections), and the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, neither of which was signed into law.
That's how my American ear hears it best. Tvoz/talk 19:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Klein article and POV tag
Proposal
I think we should add some sort of special talk header at the top of the page informing WND propagandists that their website cannot and will not be used as a reliable source for whatever claims they want to add to the article. --Whip it! Now whip it good! 03:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Is WorldNetDaily ever considered a reliable source? If not, then I don't see what good adding such a header only to this article would do. SMP0328. (talk) 03:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, for WP:SELFPUB, in their own article, they can be. Not for anything else. I don't think a header will work. These people are intent on enlightening us as to their views.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The hagiographic tone of the article, utterly lacking in content that could be considered derogatory or critical, does more to discredit it than any hit piece by WND could ever do. Gruffbear (talk) 18:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- World Net Daily isn't a reliable source for Wikipedia, but Media Matters is sourced all over the place. That's an obnoxious double-standard.
- Besides, it has less to do with WND's notability that it does running protectionism for Barack Obama. You can cite very reliable sources (NYT, FNC, MSNBC, Chicago Sun Times) to get plenty of sources for Reverend Wright, William Ayers, eligibility issues, misgivings about his oratory skills.
- But for some reason, Libipedia won't allow those well sourced issues to be included. Notability of WND is a red herring. Ynot4tony2 (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
No NPOV tag?
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How can anyone assert with a straight face that "Editors are NOT currently in dispute concerning points of view expressed in this article"? As long as these "discussions" rage here on the talk page -- specifically concerning the balance/neutrality of the article -- how can the NPOV tag be inappropriate? Opelio (talk) 09:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Could someone please remove this tag?[15] And please don't re-add it. There is little constructive discussion at the moment, and what is here is a mess. If we get past the sudden influx of suspicious editors, and external assaults on Wikipedia, and can't resolve this after going through the appropriate discussion and dispute resolution channels, then at least you have an argument for it.Wikidemon (talk) 10:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I'm going to have to agree with Scjessey to a degree here. WND is a little to the right of Goldwater, and a little less reliable than my high school gossip maven. If an article "agrees" with WND, it is a clear indicator the article is strongly biased, and almost certainly contains serious factual errors. KillerChihuahua?!? 13:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree with KillerChihuahua. The World Net Daily and Washington Times are not widely seen to my knowledge as mainstream sources. Their influence is roughly on par with something like Free Republic or The 700 Club, and they aren't widely acknowledged (or even known) by most of America or global audiences. They ought to be weighted and handled on par with similar sources. rootology (C)(T) 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I'm glad the wiki credibility issues are being brought forth in the mainstream media. The wiki entry for Barack Obama reads like a love letter, while GWB's reads like a HuffPo or DailyKOS entry. There needs to be uniformity, or there will be ZERO credibility. This comment will be deleted in 3...2...1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.12.12.2 (talk) 15:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Ummm, I would hardly call Drudge a "fringe" site according to Nielsen ratings: [16]. You may want to check your sources and be open minded a bit instead of letting your right and left wing views obstruct a fair assessment of the current president's praises as well as his several openly discussed controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.208.119 (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC) I don't usually bother with the political articles, because they are usually very neutral. Unfortunately, President Obama is a bit of a special case since his political rise and election has been rather meteoric. Scjessey, your analysis would be right if it were not for the fact that, up until now, Obama's 2008 electoral campaign is by far **the** most significant event in his young life. To put a mention of the biggest controversy faced in that time in his life is not bias. WND is not crazy, just decidedly right wing. That does not make it entirely innacurate. Though I am still pretty sure of good faith still being acted upon (especially with the new Wright mention) I think Wikidemon is the most correct here in saying the article should and probably will most likely change some when the hubbub has died down, and the trollers are gone. --XF22B (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XF22B (talk • contribs) 15:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Clearly a POV or unbalanced tag until the censorship of this article ends. It needs to mention the notable controversies and/or provide wikilinks to those articles. Rev. Wright wasn't a fringe story, it was covered by the mainstream press and was something Obama gave two speeches about. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC) |
POV tag
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Please stop removing the unbalanced or POV tag from the article. Until mention of notable controversies and criticisms are included, this article needs to be fixed. Adding a see also section that links to the notable stories is another possibility. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
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Wikipedia's Achilles' Heel
Collapsed and archived due to WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP. Closed this before it devolves into another rant. -- Brothejr (talk) 16:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)) |
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Barack Obama's entry in Wikipedia highlights and underscores Wikipedia's Achilles' Heel and greatest weakness: an inability to be objective and fair in its treatment of some people and issues. As the article below* demonstrates, a handful of Internet bullies advocating a cause or position can abandon fairness and objectivity in putting forth a whitewashed version (note to readers: watch for the negative feedback from this entry to highlight how these bullies operate!). Unfortunately, as a result, we the people need to be on our guard and use a grain of salt as we use Wikipedia, since this renders the site unreilable.
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See Also
Perhaps we should add a "See Also" section to the Barack Obama article.
The Jeremiah Wright issue was a campaign issue, but is well handled in the Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 Article. Could we reference it in a "See Also" section?
- Wright is not even mentioned in the current version of Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 Fred Talk 21:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Same also for Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories.
As time goes on there will be more "issue" articles and "controversy" articles related to Obama. They could all be referenced in a "See Also" section.
Robert1947 (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- This is a slippery slope to go down, because "See also" sections are magnets for all sorts of crap that is barely related. This is a summary style article, so much of the detail is explored in daughter articles that are linked to directly in the main body of the article. These in turn link to some of the more trivial or fringey things people are clamoring for. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the huge collection of templates at the foot of the page serve the purpose that would otherwise be placed by a "see also". Guettarda (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The majority of the articles that may have been in a See Also area, are either at the heading of each section, within the paragraphs, or part of the templates at the bottom. The only thing the See Also section would do in this politician's BLP would be a honeypot of whatever articles people want to throw into this article. Brothejr (talk) 17:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think a see also section for major articles related to Obama that aren't mentioned or wikilinked in the text would be good (for example Obama's first 100 days). Perhaps a link to a "list of" type article page for the other stories would be sufficient and act as a kind of disambiguation page to readers can find the information they're looking for. There's no point in having articles if no one can find them. That's the whole point of wikilnks. That some editors don't want those issues covered at all is unfortunate and troubling. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well the sorts of articles people are clamoring for are not "major", and some are only tangentially-related to Obama. We do not want to turn this Featured Article into a link farm for poor quality articles designed to augment the conservative echo chamber. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- There are already by random guess at least 100 Obama-related articles, and no room to list all of them as it is. Presumably that number will mushroom. We already have six or more overlapping ways of getting to related articles: (1) categories; (2) in-line wikilinks; (3) templates; (4) wikiprojects; (5) Wikipedia's internal search engine, google, and other searches; and (6) the family tree of child and parent articles. Cutting across that to provide direct links in a "see also" section to the farther out, derogatory, fringey ones is a coatrack / weight problem. Collapsible templates do a good job as the equivalent link pages - they can be general purpose or comprehensive on a subject. Wikiprojects and categories also give broad coverage but I doubt most readers know how to navigate them.Wikidemon (talk) 18:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I counted 224 last night in the main cat + subcats, although that included 60-70 people he appointed to jobs, and may have included duplicated (articles listed in the main cat + subcats). But I would guess it's closer to 150 than 100. Guettarda (talk) 18:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the responses here by Wikidemon, Brothejr, Scjessey, and Guettarda - there are many, many Obama-related articles, and we wikilink, have section head links, and have the bottom templates for a very large number of those that are relevant to the main biography. A "see also" section for those that are only tangential (if not, they would have been wikilink-etc'ed in the first place) would likely be a dumping ground, giving undue weight to otherwise marginal pieces that are here perhaps to serve some other purpose. The present system works well. Tvoz/talk 19:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I counted 224 last night in the main cat + subcats, although that included 60-70 people he appointed to jobs, and may have included duplicated (articles listed in the main cat + subcats). But I would guess it's closer to 150 than 100. Guettarda (talk) 18:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I tend to agree that some of the "fringe" articles should be linked in here, simply because they do carry substantial amounts of information that are related to the main topic. When I saw the article, I looked here and was surprised that we don't link out to the controversial stuff. I know those are crank magnets of the highest order, but they should be connected - if only to allow us to point out that the WND article is truly way the hell off the mark. Tony Fox (arf!) 19:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, add the "see Also" section. If it's right in the GWBush article it's right here. The joke's on WND for reporting on a revert war on Wiki and calling it news. Scribner (talk) 19:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I withdraw the suggestion of a "See Also" section. Indeed, the other methods of accessing Obama articles pointed out by other users/editors above are more elegant. We have a clean, balanced article for now. Also, much of the other material that Obama critics wish to include is tangential in the Obama biography. The "Wright" and "Citizenship" criticisms are covered extensively in other, more appropriate articles in Wikipedia and such articles are accessible through the means summarized above. Thanks for the helpful discussion. Robert1947 (talk) 19:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- One thing that is not mentioned in these talk pages-the WND article is not an article critical of President Obama, Instead, it is critical of Wikipedia. What the Wikipedia process is saying is that, even as a Senator, Obama was without controversy. No controversial quotes, policies, books, associations. Nothing.LinuxSneaker (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Put it in a "See Also" section and name it "Dispute over citizenship" and link it to the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article. Scribner (talk) 21:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- One thing that is not mentioned in these talk pages-the WND article is not an article critical of President Obama, Instead, it is critical of Wikipedia. What the Wikipedia process is saying is that, even as a Senator, Obama was without controversy. No controversial quotes, policies, books, associations. Nothing.LinuxSneaker (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
First 100 days
Given the nature of the world events, economy and huge nature of some of the events, could we please add this section to the Presidency section? Some items to begin adding include the stimulus bill, the visits by foreign leaders, the statements on the economy, the cloning announcement today etc. Let's move on from the campaign issues and document in encyclopedic fashion what is going on today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EricMiles (talk • contribs) 20:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Featured Article Review
Two of the primary components of a featured article areis that it is:
- neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias;
- stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process.
I believe this article now fails both of those criteria. Regarding neutrality, while there are those who believe much of the brouhaha is due to right-wing political mongering, it appears that enough significant concern about the presence or absence of various pieces of information exist that there is serious concern about the article's neutrality. Furthermore, this article currently is anything but stable, resulting in its needing a full-protection lockdown. As such, albeit the last FAR was in December, enough new issues and instability has arisen that requires us to reconsider this article's featured status until such point as the appropriate issues have all been addressed. I will be filing an FAR for that purpiose. -- Avi (talk) 20:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Not the right time. The trouble is clearly due to an extraordinary event. No new issues have arisen between the stable collegial editing of last week and the massive troubles of the last 24 hours. There is no way this is regular editing process. Could you please wait until things die down and editing is relatively normal? Wikidemon (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Avi, as evidenced by the first two responders to your FAR, this is not an appropriate time for a FAR. There is currently too many single purpose accounts/new users that are unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to make a FAR/FARC productive. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) - In full agreement with Wikidemon and Bobblehead - wait until "normal service" is resumed and the crazies have moved along. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That post is not useful. Branding people with whom you disagree as "crazies" is only going to stoke up the fire, not help quench it. The article as it stands seems to be to be fine. Earlier today, it had no references to incidents that are absolutely, without question, worthy of mention. Any historical retrospective on the primary and election campaigns leading to Obama's election is going to mention Wright, and probably Ayers. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to include them on this page in the campaign summary as well as on the detailed article on that topic. We have had one group of people wanting far too much coverage of those topics and another wanting no coverage. From my perspective, the current compromise of a brief mention for one of the topics deemed important enough to have its own article is quite sufficient. --Rpeh•T•C•E• 21:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Despite the constant interference and chaos going on around, I think we've got a compromise for Wright and will add him. Ayers on the other hand is a different story. Soxwon (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That post is not useful. Branding people with whom you disagree as "crazies" is only going to stoke up the fire, not help quench it. The article as it stands seems to be to be fine. Earlier today, it had no references to incidents that are absolutely, without question, worthy of mention. Any historical retrospective on the primary and election campaigns leading to Obama's election is going to mention Wright, and probably Ayers. It is not, therefore, unreasonable to include them on this page in the campaign summary as well as on the detailed article on that topic. We have had one group of people wanting far too much coverage of those topics and another wanting no coverage. From my perspective, the current compromise of a brief mention for one of the topics deemed important enough to have its own article is quite sufficient. --Rpeh•T•C•E• 21:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) - In full agreement with Wikidemon and Bobblehead - wait until "normal service" is resumed and the crazies have moved along. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Avi, as evidenced by the first two responders to your FAR, this is not an appropriate time for a FAR. There is currently too many single purpose accounts/new users that are unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to make a FAR/FARC productive. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me get this straight. (btw, thanks for deleting my discussions which are totally valid and even enjoyable to read, thank you) if nothing has changed in the last week, then enforcing Wiki guidelines and correcting the imbalance must wait because of what exactly? JohnHistory (talk) 21:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
What I said in response on my talk:
- In light of this screed published today, I think this FAR is ill-timed, as the need for temporary full protection is likely traceable to that. Overall, I think article probation has handled disruption well and there has not been full protection since well before the election, other than pre-emptively on election day and Inauguration Day. Let things settle down after the flurry of drive-bys ends and see how we're doing then, would be my suggestion. Tvoz/talk 21:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV is being challenged by a motley collection of sleepers, WP:SPAs, anon vandals, and the like. Calls of non-neutrality by these types are being made in bad faith, and should be discarded.
- Combating petty vandalism is not edit warring. Tarc (talk) 21:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Mainly what has been going on is a group of people, sleepers, and various wikipedians have read the WND article and have tried to push their bias/viewpoints into the article. So far none of them have remotely brought up any brand new information which might have changed the consensus version of the article. When various editors could not rewrite the article the way they would like, they resorted to edit warring and ranting on this talk page. I feel that due to these extraordinary circumstances, this FAR/FARC is ill conceived and maybe even a little bit of wikiwyllering to prove a WP:POINT. Brothejr (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Why do I think waiting just makes it more likely that Jimbo and his guidelines will be once again thrown into the the abyss? JohnHistory (talk) 21:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I can't believe someone just wrote that "calls for neutrality are being made in bad faith" ???? What to sneak a Trojan horse into your fortified Wiki Compound? This evidence of some highly unhealthy and disturbing thinking. JohnHistory (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Who cares what faith they have or are "in" just worry about the neutrality- kapeesh. JohnHistory (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Hey, John, ProTip; the election is over. Rehashing the left vs. right debate within the confines of the Barack Obama article is not a productive use of anyone's time. See WP:BATTLEGROUND. As for who cares, I care, as do many others. You aren't here to edit, you are here to make a point. As such, your contributions to this talk page are simply not taken with any seriousness. Tarc (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
It's a fake controversy generated by a lone website as to the perceived neutrality of this article. It's neutral to the all mainstream editors, or else concerns would have been raised by someone else other than a lone far-Right website. The website itself, as seen at WorldNetDaily#Claims about Barack Obama would not be considered a dispassionate, neutral source for use in this. As such, I fail to see how any reporting from them being excluded here could be a consideration in any WP:NPOV concerns about this article. It would be akin to giving Jack Thompson disproportionate weight in any neutrality dispute about Video game, in contrast. This is the same website that alleges our President is a Soviet mole.[17][18] rootology (C)(T) 21:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
OF course wikipedia fails on these accounts. The simple fact that the controversies regarding Rev Wright and William Aries being deleted shows that wikipedia has no true desire to be truly encyclopedic. These issues are well documented and well known as fact, and the leadership of wikipedia have decided to become bias in their views and make this a one-sided praise fest. Wikipedia has become nothing more than an Obama lapdog now, and might even be in the democrats back pocket. 98.20.253.208 (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Another fringe news site (FoxNews) talks about this issue. So, let me get this straight...at what step does someone who has a problem admit they have a problem? LinuxSneaker (talk) 21:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is that a writer for a partisan website has created a tempest in a teakettle, giving his fellow right-wingers an opportunity to jump up and down on Wikipedia as a proxy for not getting what they wanted in November. Did you not notice all of the discussion here? There is work being done here to deal with these concerns. If all of the folks who have surfaced/resurfaced today because this popped up on Drudge (don't get me started on that) would actually offer some constructive commentary instead of the copious amounts of wharrrgarbl that's been popping up in these discussions, then we'd all be better off. (Yeah, and I do still believe there's a pony under there.) Tony Fox (arf!) 21:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
FoxNews
Be prepared for more activity. Currently on the front page of FoxNews. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 21:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Already been mentioned like 4 times.;) --Bobblehead (rants) 21:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oops. Oh well, I wasn't going to troll through this mess to see if it was. Good luck and have fun. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 21:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The only difference from last night is that they will bombard this talk page, and for those who have accounts (and know how Wikipedia works) it will also spill into the FAR. Brothejr (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- FAR. I again propose we semi protect this talk page until normal service is restored.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- The only difference from last night is that they will bombard this talk page, and for those who have accounts (and know how Wikipedia works) it will also spill into the FAR. Brothejr (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oops. Oh well, I wasn't going to troll through this mess to see if it was. Good luck and have fun. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 21:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
John McCain and Citizenship
Both Barack Obama and John McCain are both currently featured articles. Both men have had questions raised about citizenship and eligibility to be President of the United States. Neither the John McCain nor the Obama citizenship disputes ever gained much mainstream traction, but there is an entire paragraph dedicated to the issue on the McCain article while any information about questions raised about Obama's citizenship have been consistently blocked.
I'm not trying to make an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, what I am saying is that high-profile and politically sensitive featured articles should follow the same standard if they are going to appear unbiased. -Neitherday (talk) 22:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's because Obama not being born in Hawaii is the realm of conspiracy theory wackos while McCain was born in the Canal Zone. TastyCakes (talk) 22:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, we don't adjust article content to please partisans. I haven't visited the McCain article but if there is a fringe citizenship conspiracy theory in his BLP, you can take it up there. Wikidemon (talk) 22:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19663.html
- ^ http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/15/obamas-teleprompter-hits-the-trail/
- ^ http://news.aol.com/article/obamas-teleprompter-use-debated/372666
- ^ Lois Romano (February 3, 2004). "Bush's Guard Service In Question". Washington Post. Retrieved September 1, 2008.
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