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August 10

Digital antenna range and signal overlap

A friend who has cable TV (the one who would benefit from a directional parabolic speaker) recently bought a digital widescreen TV and has seen his cable bill rise by 50% after the end of a year-long promotion. He is considering terminating cable and all pay service entirely to use the off-air signals available in his South Jersey Delaware Valley market. (I have strongly recommended this, since the free HD signal is far far better than the cable signal, and, other than Turner Classic Movies, 24 hr news, and The Weather Channel, he has no use for Syfy since they cancelled Farscape or the History Channel since it has become the hick story channel. Netflix, Hulu, and pirated movie and TV downloads will more than fulfill his needs, and he can watch about 1/3 of the Phillies and all the Eagles games over the air for free. (His significant other can watch Dancing with the Stars either on air or pirated the next day at no charge as well.

He has looked into buying a digital antenna. Our article seems quite good. But he has read claims that he can receive signals from 150 miles away, which would mean the Baltimore, MD, Reading, PA, and New York City broadcasts would become available. He has two concerns, neither of which our article addresses. First, are the 150- mile range claims credible? My opinion of the reviews at Amazon.com is that they read like advertising copy, and, since they are written by reviewers who have no other review writing history, seem like highly uncreditable paid plugs. His second question is, if the range claims are true, and he gets overlapping channel reception from different broadcasters in different markets using the same channel, will he not just get interference? Or will a rotating antenna be necessary, with the signal received depending on how the antenna is aimed? Does anyone have any information I can refer to him? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

150 miles seems quite absurd for digital TV. The most you can expect is maybe 50 miles, and then only with ideal conditions and a heck on a directional antenna, on a tall mast. One thing to note is that anyone selling a "digital antenna" is probably out to scam you. That is, there is nothing inherently digital or analog about an antenna, that comes in later, depending on how your TV interprets the signal. I get pretty good reception using nothing but rabbit ears and a UHF loop. The next step up is a good omni-directional antenna for the roof. For max reception, go with a directional rooftop antenna with a rotor, so you can turn it remotely. I recommend this site to see what his reception will be: [1] (any signal listed as strong can be picked up with just rabbit ears and a UHF loop). Note that they only list the primary station on each frequency, but many frequencies also have substations (so 47.1 also comes with 47.2, 47.3, 47.4 and 47.5). Another website has more detailed info, which is needed for directional antennae:[2]. This will tell you the direction and distance to each broadcast tower. StuRat (talk) 05:40, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

His rooftop connection gets worse reception on one VHF (PBS) and two UHF (one PBS, one for-profit) stations than it did when it was analog transmission. The antennas I saw on Amazon said "optimized for digital singnals". Surely that isn't pure crap? μηδείς (talk) 06:39, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Almost pure crap. The only thing that can be optimized for digital is that digital tends to avoid low VHF in the US, due to power restriction regulations at those frequencies. There were also some high UHF channels added to analog TV above channel 69 that were never much used and were finally dropped when they went to digital. So, an antenna that gets better reception in the high VHF and the UHF bands for channels 69 and under could be said to be "optimized for digital TV", I suppose.

To see all the strong stations, including substations, in his area, try: http://www.titantv.com/. StuRat (talk) 07:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

As for why he might get worse reception under digital than for analog on the same station, there are many possible reasons:

1) Digital does not handle weak signals well. A signal that was just a bit fuzzy under analog becomes completely unwatchable under digital. So, he'd need a better antenna if this is the problem.

2) Digital stations are often broadcast on a different frequency than the analog stations were, even if the same channel number is displayed on the screen. So, his antenna may have been better at the old frequency than the new one. If this is the problem, he needs to find the new frequency and get an antenna optimized for that.

3) The digital transition also resulted in a lot of changes in which station is broadcast from which tower. Often, several channels share the same tower. So, the signal might be coming from farther away, or in a different direction than before. If this is a problem, a better antenna may be needed, or a directional antenna may need to be rotated to point to the new tower location.

If you give me his ZIP code, and the stations he's having problems with, I can comment further. StuRat (talk) 08:13, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

ZIP 08080 is nearby, and the two most problematic stations are WHYY 12 Phila and WNJN 23 Camden, both PBS. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Those are both listed as strong stations for that ZIP, on old radio frequencies 12 and 22 (not 23). Do you happen to know if it's a directional antenna ? Because, if it's a directional antenna pointed the wrong way, this could be a problem. The strong stations in his area all seem to come from two directions (97-99° and 348-349°). So, if using a directional antenna, he'd either need a rotor to rotate between the two positions, or two directional antennae, one for each direction (he could have a switch box to select which antenna feed goes to the TV, if the TV doesn't allow dual coax inputs). The two antenna system would be better, since he wouldn't need to wait for it to rotate while changing channels, and he'd have a backup in case either one is damaged.

If he has an omnidirectional antenna, then I suspect problems with the stations themselves. Perhaps they aren't broadcasting at their full licensed power (I have a station here that doesn't seem to be able to keep their power level up). Other than waiting for them to get their acts together, his other options would be to switch to directional antenna(e) or add a signal pre-amplifier at the antenna (this is important if the coax cables travel a long distance from the antenna to the TV, and the signal degrades over that length). StuRat (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe his old antenna is directional. WHYY 12 was always the best reception, now it is the poorest VHF out of Phila.

Can you post how you got this information?

I am curious, if he were able to get Baltimore and NYC's channel 11's with a better antenna, how would that present itself/ Would it only work with a directional antenna aimed properly? Would the signals interfere, or be distinct? μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I used this site: http://www.antennaweb.org (I provided this link previously). You might want to contact WHYY at talkback@whyy.org and ask if they are broadcasting at a reduced power level, and, if so, when, if ever, they expect to return to full power. Point out how their signal is now much weaker than it was under analog. If they don't expect to go to full power soon, then directional antenna(e) will be required. Baltimore and NYC are 94 and 101 miles away, respectively, which is well beyond the range you can get with even an excellent directional antenna (I believe the curvature of the Earth comes into play over these distances, blocking the straight-line path).

They intentionally avoid using the same frequency in adjacent markets. In the unlikely event of two stations being received at the same power level on the same frequency, they would indeed interfere. You might get nothing, or it might switch between the two, especially as you rotated a directional antenna toward one or the other. (And the channel number might also appear to change, since, with virtual channels under digital TV, each station broadcasts the channel to be displayed on the TV, and it's not always the same as the radio frequency channel, as in his channel 22/23 case.) StuRat (talk) 22:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

He does get NYC AM radio stations quite clearly. When he called to ask me to look into the antenna he mentioned that there were claims of reception at 150 miles and I saw the same myself at Amazon. μηδείς (talk) 22:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

FM is between VHF 6 and 7, so if he got FM from those cities, that would indicate he might be able to get VHF from those locations. AM radio uses much different frequencies and subsequently bounces between the clouds and ground, so can go hundreds of miles. I'd say your initial assessment that those are fake reviews is correct. (Did the manufacturer make those claims, or were they solely in the reviews ?) To get much beyond 50 miles, he'd need to build his own tower for the antennae, which is probably illegal in his area.

Looking at the radio frequencies for the stations in his area, they range from 4-49/51. Since 4 is "low VHF" (the VHF range below FM radio), he should actually avoid any antenna which claims it's "specially designed for digital TV", as that likely means it doesn't handle low-VHF well, so won't get channel 4.

It would also help to know the specific model of antenna he has, as several drop out at certain frequencies. See these charts: [3]. StuRat (talk) 23:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The radio reception is from a car antenna, NYC FM comes in, but too poorly for music, and talk and news are on AM. The house antenna is 2 1/2 stories higher. The house antenna may date to the original owners from the 1960's. μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

2.5 stories doesn't make all that much difference, and, if the music is too poor to listen to on FM, then the reception will also be too poor to watch on digital TV. Old isn't necessarily bad on an antenna, as the technology hasn't changed much in decades (there are new fractal antenna designs for cell phones, but this design hasn't made it to TV antennas yet, although some of the old designs were somewhat fractal, before the term even existed). However, it's possible the antenna has been damaged. For example, some of the links may be disconnected or misaligned. So, switching to new directional antenna(e) would also be good for this reason. Not including the cost of installation, this would run around $200, so should pay for itself with savings from the cable bill in a few months. StuRat (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

My friend seems to credit your advice and believe the antenna and the lead are old. Is a coax cable the best (most reasonable and sufficiently powerful) replacement for his old-fashioned two-wired crab-clawed connection? Does no-one else here have a new antenna for an off-air signal? μηδείς (talk) 04:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

If he has a new TV it's going to have a coax connector, not the old separate connectors for UHF and VHF. So, since it needs to be in coax form by the time it reaches the TV, he might as well put it on coax right at the antenna, since, I believe, coax is more resistant to certain types of interference.

Unfortunately, the percentage of people using over-the-air broadcasts has gone down, and many of those just use rabbit ears and a loop, so the market for high-end antennae is now quite small. The result is that they've stopped putting money into development, and either continue to sell variations on the same old theme, or sell total scam antennae. Most of the scammers sell indoor antennae, though, like this one: [4]. (They are probably worried that any professional installing an outdoor scam antenna would notify the buyer, who would then return it.) StuRat (talk) 05:18, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

So, to review, if he gets either a single directional antenna with a remote controlled rotor, or a pair of directional antennas, each pointed in the proper direction, and connects them via a coax, using a powered signal pre-amplifier at the antenna, he should get, at the very least, the following stations clearly:

 3.1 CBS
 4.1 Independent (black)             Camden, NJ
 6.1 ABC
 6.2 Livewell Network
 6.3 Livewell Network
10.1 NBC
10.2 Nonstop Network
12.1 PBS-HD
12.2 PBS
12.3 PBS
17.1 MyNet
17.2 ATV (classic TV and movies)
17.3 This TV (classic TV and movies)
23.1 PBS                             Camden, NJ
29.1 FOX
35.1 MiND (infomercials ?)
35.2 NHK (infomercials ?)
35.3 France 24
35.4 MHZ4 (news and documentaries)
44.1 Independent (infomercials ?)    Camden, NJ
44.2 BOUNCE (recent movies)          Camden, NJ
48.1 TBN (religious)
48.2 Church Channel
48.3 Jesus Christ TV
48.4 Spanish TBN
49.1 Telemundo                       Camden, NJ
51.1 Independent (shopping)
57.1 CW
61.1 ION
61.2 Qubo (kids)
61.3 ION Life
65.1 Univision
65.1 Futura (Spanish)

To me, a lot of that is junk (shopping channels, religious channels, foreign language channels, etc.), but he will have all the major networks.

I marked the stations coming from Camden, NJ (the rest are from Philly). Note that Camden, NJ doesn't contribute much to the total number of stations, so he wouldn't lose all that many if he just got one directional antenna and pointed it towards Philly. StuRat (talk) 06:02, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, he gets all those and some out of Vineland and/or Hammonton as well. The problem is still 12 and 23, and it was either 57 or 61 that comes in poorly as well. I'll let you know what is done eventually.

Two last questions, how much better is a unidrectional as opposed to an omnidirectional antenna for any given station? Second, is the old two-wired antenna with the c-shaped screw connectors running one wire for UHF and one for VHF? He currently has those attached to a coax adaptor. Might he get a better signal if only one of the two crab claw connectors were attached at a time? μηδείς (talk) 21:56, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Directional antennas are quite a bit better, both by picking up a signal from further away, and by rejecting signals coming from other directions that might cause interference. (I don't use the term "unidirectional", because many directional antennae also pick up signals well in the opposite direction from where they are pointed.) If he's currently getting channels from a couple other directions, and wants to continue to get those, then perhaps he should keep his omnidirectional antenna, and possibly supplement it with a directional antenna pointed towards Philly.

Yes, I believe coaxial cable, when used for TV, carries VHF on one line and UHF on the other. Note that each adapter/connector has the potential to introduce noise and/or reduce the signal strength, and you want to keep those to a minimum (so one long coax cable is better than several small ones joined together).

If I understand your final question, you are asking about only connecting VHF or UHF, and switching the connection depending on which he is watching. No, I don't see any advantage to that. They shouldn't interfere with each other on a coax line. StuRat (talk) 22:42, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You have misunderstood me. Right now he has a flat tape-like connection with two wires in it running from the roof which has probably been in place form the 60's or 70's. It has two c-shaped connectors which would originally have connected to two screw mounts on the back of the TV before coax was generally available. That connection is now screwed into a teensy coax adaptor which connects to the TV using the latter's coax input. Are both of the wires internal to the cord carrying the combined UHF and VHF signal? Or is one wire for UHF and one for VHF? (I remember there used to be separate UHF and VHF inputs to TV's before the 1980's, but don't remember the details.) μηδείς (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe the UHF and VHF are kept completely separate in the coax cable. StuRat (talk) 10:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly what I asked. Should I assume that his old-style flat two-internal wire tape-from connecter with two separate internal wires is carrying separate UHF and VHF signals, one on each wire? And if so, given your last remark, should I assume the coax adapter with two screw inputs is keeping them separate? μηδείς (talk) 22:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I believe the UHF and VHF are kept separate on that type of cable, as well. BTW, if the UHF and VHF were connected to the wrong connectors, that would explain the worse-than-expected reception, so swapping them is worth a try, just in case this is the problem. StuRat (talk) 01:50, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, that will be quite a triumph is swapping the coax adapter connections works! μηδείς (talk) 03:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

And also "if"... :-) StuRat (talk) 05:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Fancy Moves in .doc and .pdf

I'm preparing a presentation to hand over in .doc or .pdf and I have compiled a long list but it's way too long but I can't bear to cut it down. Is there a way for me to in .doc or .pdf create a short list and then have a "roll over" button that allows the page to switch to the long list? TY everybody.

Toottoottrain (talk) 06:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

You can do almost anything in Word using macros, but it will require a degree of programming. Here's some info on hiding and showing text.[5] --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

This won't in any way answer your question, but I'd like to point out that when you're writing a presentation (or, in fact, anything that you want someone else to read) there's no such thing as too short. People (especially business people) have extremely short attention spans, and the amount of effort you will need to put in to achieve what you're trying to do will vastly outweigh, by some orders of magnitude, the amount of effort that your audience will put in to reading it. I guess that if you're writing something for a degree course where you need to hit a minimum word count then you might not cut stuff down so ruthlessly, but even so, you'd be much better served by trimming as much as possible in order to get more varied thoughts in. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It's much more low tech, but if you need to you could have the short list, then have at the end "For a more detailed list, see the appendix", and then just paste the full list at the very end of the document. Smurrayinchester 08:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

USSR/USA comparison

I remember seeing a wikitable somewhere (on this site, of course) that compared the USSR and the United States in several aspects (culture, area, economy, etc.). I wanted to look at it again, and I could have sworn that it was in the Cold War page, alas it was not there. Could someone help me find it? Thanks! 64.229.153.184 (talk) 06:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I came across the same table a few days ago. It is at this link. Tombo7791 (talk) 16:47, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes, there it is. Thank you! 64.229.153.184 (talk) 04:33, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

US food labeling laws and health benefit claims

How is it that foods like Triscuit can make health claims on their packaging ("may help reduce the risk of heart disease...diets rich in whole grain foods & other plant foods, & low in saturated fat & cholesterol may help reduce the risk of heart disease"[6]) while many other food products, supplements, and beverages such as beer and wine, cannot? For a recent example, the FDA cracked down on POM Wonderful for making similar health claims (see POM_Wonderful#FTC cease and desist order). However, I see little, if any difference between the health claims made by Triscuit and those made by POM. Could someone with more knowledge about this issue than me, please explain it? Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 10:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It's probably the use of weasel words like "may" that get them past the regulators. "Eating at Taco Bell may reduce your chance of getting cancer" (since you won't live long enough to get it). StuRat (talk) 10:17, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Why are attorneys and judges making decisions about health benefit claims? Shouldn't these types of decisions be made by uninvolved health scientists? Am I living in a parallel universe or something? Viriditas (talk) 10:19, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the interaction between the legal system and science is never good, as judges and attorneys seems to know just about nothing about science or math, and their decisions reflect that. StuRat (talk) 10:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't there a plan to rollout a "science court"? I remember hearing about it back in 1995 or so. Viriditas (talk) 10:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The current way that the law handles science is about as bad as you can imagine. It used to be that you'd call on scientific experts and try and suss out whether the scientific community thought something was crackpot or not (under the Frye standard). But since Daubert (1993), the way it works is to basically have the judges decide what's valid science and what's not. Which is awful, since judges know, in most cases, literally nothing about detailed scientific questions, and it turns out it's very easy to confuse a judge. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Also note that Triscuit is piggybacking off existing studies showing the health benefits of whole grains and plant foods low in saturated fats & cholesterol. It seems that POM lacks such studies. StuRat (talk) 10:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? Really, I'm seeing no difference in the claims at all. Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It is an extremely fine — some would argue nonexistent — line between what is a legal claim and what is not in this respect. You aren't allowed to claim that non-FDA reviewed foods or supplements can cure any specific disease or have any specific medical effect. Furthermore, part of the issue with POM is they twisted the results of certain studies, ignored evidence that contradicted them, and so on — this was ruled by the judge (see above regarding the importance of the judge) as being "deceptive". But it's a super fine line. Other products trying to do the Trisket thing have gotten smacked down by the FDA in the past; Cheerios in particular went too far in advertising the heart benefits of its fiber content. The main difference between the POM and Cheerios claims and those of Trisket are their specificity: POM and Cheerios put too much of a scientific specificity in their claimed effects (whether real or not, you can't make it sound like it's a drug), whereas Trisket keeps things vague. It's not really about there being studies or not being studies — it's about whether the consumer will think that they will get standardized, specific health outcomes out of consuming this food product, and whether the FDA has examined and approved such a food product for that sort of treatment.

In the end, I tend to agree with you that there is flagrant violation of this rule. There are huge numbers of foods and supplements which are essentially marketed as medicines of some sort without any FDA approval or confirmation — it is only about two steps down from being unregulated. (Some of this is by design; American law on "dietary supplements" was made purposefully loose and vague.) --Mr.98 (talk) 13:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• My understanding is that the FDA has a list of specific statements that manufacturers are allowed to make, and specific criteria that must be met in order to make those statements -- the Triscuit statement is one of them. Looie496 (talk) 16:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

What there are is a list of "authorized claims" — you can see the ones related fiber here. (There are lots of sub-categories of claims.) You aren't limited to verbatim recitation of the claims, though, but if you stray too far from them, the FDA gets mad. As to whether you've strayed too far or not, that's a fairly subjective judgment. The FDA letter to General Mills is instructive over how baroque and fairly not-straightforward these requirements are. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:32, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

(EC) Looie496 appears to be mostly correct. You can find a list of FDA approved health claims here [7] although the manufacturer seems to have some discretion in the precise wording. As per [8] and [9], it seems a manufacturer has the opportunity to submit 'a notification of a health claim based on an authoritative statement from an appropriate scientific body of the United States Government or the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) or any of its subdivisions'. The FDA has 120 days to either prohibit or modify this statement and I think it can then go to court if the manufacturer doesn't agree with ther FDA. The notification for the Triscuit health claim appears to be [10]. Nil Einne (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Creepy wikipedia links

Can anyone supply me with links to some creepy wikipedia pages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 17:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried Creepy. MilborneOne (talk) 17:16, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this a joke to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a fairly subjective question, which is not what the Ref Desk is good for. Some people find Surinam toads to be inherently creepy. Some do not. Some people are creeped out by urban legends. Others just find them stupid. I find Toxoplasmosis creepy. I'm sure there are others who'd roll their eyes. It's not a very good Ref Desk question. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

As said above, we have no idea what creeps you out... So does Cryptozoology work for ya? Dismas|^(talk) 18:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this a joke to you? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:17, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Paranormal wikipedia pages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 18:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

If that's a request or a question instead of just a demand, please see Category:Paranormal. Dismas|^(talk) 18:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing creepier than this. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Some species of caterpillar creep. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Creep (TLC song). Shadowjams (talk) 01:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

This CREEP was one of the scariest. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:04, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, scary like Ghostbusters. μηδείς (talk) 04:40, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

And don't forget cats that creep into crypts. Richard Avery (talk) 07:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Try this list and Wikipedia:Unusual_articles#Folklore? --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Flint & Kent store, NYC, 1946

Hi, I'm trying to establish the location of a Flint & Kent store in New York City, as of 1946. A quick Google bombs, and there's nothing in the image database for the New York City archives when I search the two names together. Help? There's a Woolworth's right next to it.

Sadly, I can't officially upload the image, it's not mine. Possibly might be able to at some point, once I have permission. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

As soon as I posted, thought of looking for a digitized directory. (Page 404) 11W42 would be 11 West 42nd Street? Sadly, this building seems way too tall. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, the Stephen A. Schwarzman Building (5th Ave NYPL) is certainly not across the street in this image. Perhaps the F&K logo is a red herring, just a billboard? Woolworth's had way too many NYC stores. (See Page 1336.) -- Zanimum (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Trial Litigation Second Opinion

The party in litigation has to calculate if it's worth it to go to trial or settle, but a big problem is the lack of completely trustworthy guidance. Trial means $$$ for attorneys so a client can't completely rely on their attorneys to not deceive them into going forward. So I wonder are there consultant services designed just to give a second opinion about whether to go to trial or settle? Longdormant (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

One solution to this conflict of interest is to use contingency pay, where the lawyers only get paid if they win. In this case, they won't want to take a case they aren't likely to win, or they will have such a high contingency fee that it's clearly not in the client's interest to accept. StuRat (talk) 21:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

They could just ask a different attorney than the one that would represent them in court. --Tango (talk) 14:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Hogwarts Crest

Who designed the Hogwarts crest as it is seen in the book? Was it Rowling herself? 117.226.137.123 (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

If it is described in the book, I would only assume Rowling. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The American editions were illustrated by Mary GrandPré, so it's not for sure Rowling. Can you give us the specific crest that you have in mind (which book and edition is it from, and where?) Buddy431 (talk) 22:48, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that the US edition is going to have a different coat of arms to the original, unless the text of the book was changed too. You could try asking the question on the Harry Potter Wiki]. Alansplodge (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

For "crest", I think it likely that you're actually referring to the entire coat of arms. The blazon, that is, the formal language describing the coat of arms, would likely have been created by Rowling (as it's text). Any visual depiction would probably then have been created by the artist, but the blazon is generally considered the core of the design (though the artist could certainly hold copyright on the particular depiction). Of course, Rowling might have had help writing the blazon, and the artist might have had help interpreting the blazon, but it's unlikely that assistance in either case was officially credited as such. — Lomn 13:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

August 11

Margaret Crotty episode of I survived type show

Can anyone identify the episode of the TV show I Survived... or a similar show from the Biography Channel or the like (perhaps Discovery's I Shouldn't Be Alive) which featured Margaret Crotty, later an educator in NYC and then a child volunteer in Jakarta who survived 16 hours swimming to shore after a 1996 Indonesian ferry capsizing (Redacted)? I remember the episode vividly, which I saw between 1999 and 2005. It may have been another show, but can only find brief accounts on line (Redacted) and I want to watch the original episode. Biography offers episodes for sale, but I cannot identify the series for sure or the S##E## number. μηδείς (talk) 02:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect your memory here. There are many accounts of her story online, (Redacted). It's the sort of thing that people would surely pick up on if there was even a rumor about it. In fact, there's some risk that even asking the question here will be enough to give rise to a circulating rumor. Looie496 (talk) 03:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You suspect my memory here on principle, or because you remember the show? I am not making a claim, I am not interested in rumors, I am asking for help tracking down the episode where she recounts her story herself. I will be quite happy with it. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

This mini-bio mentions it occurred in 1995, and there was a Dateline NBC episode about her. μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I have redacted all the above claims of something happening to her after she swum ashore for WP:BLP reasons. As Looie496 has said, these claims don't seem to appear anywhere but here, so it would seem surprising if it was even a rumour that had appeared in some other significant source. I doubt the claims are necessary for help in tracking down the episode and even if they are, in the absence of evidence the claims actually appeared in the episode, they should stay out of wikipedia. Nil Einne (talk) 10:06, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. I am looking for the episode or episodes she appeared in, not trying to make any specific claim. μηδείς (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Classification system

Looking for any classification or coding system which uses colors black white red blue yellow. The objects under classification have a lifespan.

Would appreciate any help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.83.244.183 (talk) 03:14, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You are going to have to tell us more. What is the context of your question? Are you asking what such a system may be called? When you say lifespan, do you mean humans or animals? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The OP asked a very similar question four days ago. There were some potentially useful responses there (along with some confusion), but no more than the question from the OP. I recommend that this editor properly engage in conversation here this time. HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I am looking for what such system is called ?? Lifespan I mean could be some kind of expiry of the objects of the classification. That means the objects have a "expiry date" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.83.244.183 (talk) 11:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

What kinds of objects? Books? Food? Cars? Give us a hint, please? HiLo48 (talk) 12:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Could be any object. Infact my interest is to know all classification systems where colors are used. Hope I made it clear — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.83.244.183 (talk) 12:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Koi are classified under such a system (white, black, red, blue, yellow, has a lifespan). Hopefully this illustrates why "knowing all classification systems where colors are used" is a ridiculous and unachievable scope. However, note also that a Google search for "black white blue red yellow classification" will find a great many such systems. — Lomn 13:16, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain why you want to know? That might help us work out what it is you a really asking. At the moment, your question is far too vague. --Tango (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

It's only one color off from the color code for bread oldness used in some U.S. grocery stores. More context would make this question make more sense. Paul (Stansifer) 23:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Cleaning keyboard

I didn't think that this would go in the computing reference desk: I accidentally spilled some agave syrup on a keyboard and it seeped inside the keyboard—I was wondering how I could clean it out? 71.146.4.142 (talk) 04:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Read these archived threads and get back if you still have questions. μηδείς (talk) 04:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

career

I Deepak Kaushik studied in a deemed university(manav rachna international university) in faridabad doing B.tech . Am i eligible for govt. jobs after completing my graduation ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepak.kaushik778 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

That is going to depend on what government job you want. I suggest you speak to a tutor or a careers adviser at your university. Alternatively, you can speak to the HR/Personnel department at the government office you want to work at. --Tango (talk) 20:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the article Manav Rachna International University there is a Training and Placement department to support graduates. The website of the university, under the tab "Placements", lists quite a few internationally known companies as recruiters. I can not judge how many governmental offices are listed, but the Indian navy has been a recruiter in 2011. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:47, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

August 12

Flag of Zambia

1. What was the specific date in 1996 when the Zambian flag was modified?

2. The Zambian flag appears to be the only national flag where the decorations are concentrated in the fly, but does anyone know other flags so distinguished, of other types? They could be historical flags, supernational or subnational flags, flags of organisations or institutions, etc. --Theurgist (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at this gallery, the flags of Sri Lanka and the de facto independent Nagorno-Karabakh Republic also have disproportionate decoration on the fly, but not to the extreme that Zambia has taken it. American Samoa also has most of the decoration on the fly, but it's not a country. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the same gallery, the Rwanda and Vatican City flags are also decorated similarly. Therefore, while still unusual, the Zambian flag is not as "unique" and "exceptional" as one would read. Further examples will also be appreciated. --Theurgist (talk) 03:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why they do it that way. Since the fly is hard to see as it waves in the wind, and gets damaged first as the flag ages, this seems like a poor choice. StuRat (talk) 04:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Flags of the World: Republic of Zambia has some information including legislation in 1994, but also says; "According to François Burgos the flag of Zambia was changed in 1996. The dark green was substituted for a more clear green, and the eagle which was slightly different from the one on the shield in the Arms, has been changed to be more like the one on the shield." So no clear answer I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

If we found life on Mars?

Let's say that one of the many highly anticipated photos beamed down from Mars shows evidence of life. Not little green men waving at the camera, but something more subtle: A tuft of "mold" or sprigs of "grass" growing on the landscape...or a "bug" crawling across the camera lens. Would these be made public? If not, what is the process? Would the President or Pentagon be informed first, and, if so, why? Basically is there a protocol for this, mission specific to the Curiosity Lander (as opposed to the widely known first contact protocol employed by SETI regarding extraterrestrial radio signals)? Ditch ∝ 03:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

A bunch of people at JPL are watching everything that comes in, and there are reporters wandering around, so it wouldn't be possible to keep anything like that secret -- nor would NASA want to. As soon as they were sure the observations are valid, they would issue a press release. If nothing else, a discovery like that would guarantee them a major increase in funding. Looie496 (talk) 03:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't see a tuft of grass or a bug causing panic, which would be the only justification for keeping it secret. A bunch of Martians firing at and then destroying the probe, on the other hand, might cause panic. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This was addressed in the MSL Sol 3 update conference. — Kieff | Talk 04:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Addressed, yes. Answered, no. You'd have to be a "space" lawyer to interpret the statement in that video as yay or nay. Viriditas (talk) 10:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The answer was pretty clear. He said the current policy is to release everything straight away, but that they would take their time before offering their interpretation of anything like that. He also made clear that if something like that did happen it is possible the policy would change. --Tango (talk) 10:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

There was no answer to the question "do you have a process that you can release or put on the web that will explain how NASA or JPL will handle that information", which was the same question asked by the OP up above. The reason there was no answer is because the question was never addressed. Yes, their policy is to release everything right away, and yes they will take their time with it if necessary. But there has been no answer to the question about post-detection protocols, probably because "very little such effort has been used to identify the consequences of discovering single-celled life forms elsewhere in our own solar system. Confirmation of such fossilized or living organisms on a nearby planet or moon could still have acute effects on individuals’ world-views and raise many ethical and practical issues." Viriditas (talk) 11:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is seriously expecting to see grass or bugs. What they might find is single-celled life or, more likely, signs that there has been single-celled life there millions of years ago. That isn't going to show up in photos; that's going to come from the other scientific instruments. I don't know their specific policies on the discovery of life, but you can be certain the scientists would be very resistant to the biggest discovery of their careers being kept secret. SETI has a protocol for what to do in the event of discovering an radio signal from an extraterrestrial intelligence - you can read a bit about it in this paper. While it does involve informing the authorities, the only intended delay before taking it to the mass media is to get confirmation from other scientists. --Tango (talk) 10:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Allan Hills 84001 was discovered in 1984. They are still arguing about it. Viriditas (talk) 11:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason to suspect that such information would be withheld. As for the process, it would likely have to filter up through many different chains of command. I suspect the President would be informed (not the Pentagon), but mostly so he wouldn't be caught flat footed when the announcement came. Presidents don't like to be surprised. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Given that everyone from career rocket scientists to college undergraduates work on the rover and its data, I highly doubt such information could even be temporarily withheld. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking for a book

Few days ago, I noticed a book named "Make your own business : Strive and Thrive" or something like that, in a book store. I forgot its full name. I want to read its review on the net before planning to purchase this book. It's a best seller book out there that has quite impressive review from renown business personality. I can't remember the author's name. Can anyone help me to find its link in the net (especially in amazon.com). Thanks in advance--180.234.53.242 (talk) 11:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Toxic Success: How to Stop Striving and Start Thriving by Paul Pearsall? Alansplodge (talk) 14:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• I saw this book in amazon.com before. But that book is related to business (most probably marketing), not psychology or self-help!--180.234.85.223 (talk) 16:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

But you did mention "business" in your question. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

A web search for strive thrive business book finds "Strive to thrive: The 7 keys to business success". If that sounds right search for it. 94.101.10.162 (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Check it out in your local library. It is free, and if you have an e-reader you can probably download it to your device for 21 days. Viriditas (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Easiest route from Helsinki to northern Sweden

If RG Line does cease operations, and there is no ferry link from Vaasa, Finland to Umeå, Sweden, any more, what would be the easiest way to get by car from Helsinki to northern Sweden (say, Tärnaby in particular for example), including as little actual driving the car yourself as possible? JIP | Talk 18:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The easiest way to travel by car would clearly be to go by road, via Oulu and Lulea. If you want to go by car but not to drive yourself, I guess the answer would be to get someone else to drive. Warofdreams talk 21:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

A quick scoot up and down the Gulf of Bothnia in Google Maps, suggests you are out of luck. From Vaasa to Umeå, there is the northern road route via Tornio (an 800 km drive), or getting the ferry from Turku to Kapellskär (north of Stockholm). The last is a 1000 km drive and a lengthy ferry journey via the Aland Islands. Astronaut (talk) 06:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There are car-transport trains in Finland, but apparently not in Sweden. So maybe it would be a better option to take the train to Rovaniemi and drive to Tornio, and thereafter to Sweden, from there? JIP | Talk 19:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

How do we know the CIA didn't smuggle in a brand-new earthquakebomb developed at Area 51?

How do we know the CIA didn't smuggle in a brand-new earthquakebomb developed at Area 51? There has been an "earthquake" in Iran recently, and we're seething at each other over their nuclear ambitions.

Could it be possible that an earthquake-inducing bomb was developed at Area 51, then brought in by Iranian-looking CIA agents (who also speak the local language very well, with flawless accents), taken underground, to detonate?

Since the "earthquake" happened in a fairly inconsequential area, I would assume that this was a test-bomb, and that the real deal will be bigger, and placed under an area near Iran's controversial nuclear facilities. In this method, they would possibly destroy said facilities and cripple their nuclear program for the last time.

The quakes in 1990 and 2003 may have been induced by secret bombs too, possibly. We've not had good relations with them since the '79 revolution.

Is there an article anywhere about such theoretical bombs that may or may not exist? I wonder how they'd work. Thanks. --70.179.170.114 (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the Earthquake bomb article, they're something you have to drop, which they'd definitely call us out on. Also, Iran is in a part of the Eurasian tectonic plate right between the Arabian plane and the Indian plate. We have no evidence that the government has developed some sort of mini earthquake bomb, we have no evidence that they are developing that sort of thing at Area 51, and we have no evidence that the CIA would leave bombs over at Area 51. While the US was rather disappointed that Sharif took over, pragmatically it's not enough to go to war over. There is no pragmatic motive, and so even less evidence that the US Gov't was involved.

Occam's razor should lead us to the conclusion that it's just an earthquake, and nothing more. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Plus, if the CIA was that good, it wouldn't have taken 10 years to capture Bin Laden. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Unless the CIA was protecting bin Laden, which is why he was so hard to catch... ;) --Jayron32 19:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if Bin Laden was in the CIA? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if he ran the CIA. --Jayron32 19:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

We don't know. However, we have as ask ourselves, which is more likely? A massive conspiracy, and a rather ill-thought out one at that (why would you do your test detonation in an inconsequential part of an enemy country, rather than just in the Nevada desert or the middle of the ocean or somewhere else much easier and safer?), or a natural earthquake in a region we already know is susceptible to earthquakes? --Tango (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if the CIA is a ruse made up by the Freemasons, Bin Laden was Bush's vice president in hiding, and Cheney was just a decoy? My contacts at the Illuminati assure me that's not the case, though. Fnord, everybody. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, quit picking on the poor IP OP. It's not his fault. He's from Kansas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This is simply an arbitrary assertion. It is the equivalent of saying, "You migh be a murderer, no one knows all your moves, so prove you aren't." The appropriate response is not to attempt to prove a negative. but to say that until you provide some positive evidence, I will treat your statement as flatus vocis, a verbal fart. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Earthquakes present characteristic seismic signals. Simulating this with high explosives (or something else) is not likely to be successful. You can tell the difference, for example, between an underground nuclear detonation, and underground HE detonation, and an earthquake quite easily if you look at the waveforms. There are ample public seismic stations in the Middle East (the Iranians have their own, of course). You could, I guess, hypothesize that this magical earthquake bomb is somehow totally indistinguishable from actual earthquakes. But you might as well claim that Jesus came down and caused the earthquake — there is as much evidence and it is equally unfalsifiable.

As for the region of Iran, I would point out that there is pretty much at least one detectable earthquake a day in the area. It's highly seismically active, on par with Japan and California. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Which would imply that if IP 70 is aware of evidence to the contrary he should post it. μηδείς (talk) 22:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I guess. This is not a debating society; who cares if the OP is wrong or not? They asked a question, it's possible to give a reasonably scientific explanation as to why that's unlikely without demanding evidence to the contrary and then proclaiming the OP to be "verbally farting." I think that's a little unnecessary. The stakes are low here; there no reason to bite the questioners, even if the questions are (in your eyes) silly. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

BTW, the problem is not that what he has asked is wrong. It is that his supposition doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong. It is arbitrary. The point is that one doesn't waste time on disproving arbitrary requests for proofs of negatives. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If you find it a waste of time, please, feel free to do something else with it, rather than be nasty to people asking questions that aren't up to your standards, or other people who are bothering to try and communicate some facts to them and others. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, 98, was that meant as a response to the series of letters the IP has typed? It doesn't seem like one. No one is stopping you. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Huh? --Mr.98 (talk) 03:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That arbitrary requests for proof of negatives do not merit epistemic effort is a storied philosophical position, it dates back to Aristotle at least. That such claims are flatus vocis is one of the underlying principles of science and all rational thought. Had I called the OP an effing ayhole, rather than answer sincerely that one doesn't attempt to answer requests for negative proofs, I would have been being nasty. I didn't, and I wasn't. As for your bizarre concern with my supposed nastitude, go stick it in your fnord. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

In the 1978 Superman film, Lex Luthor triggered an earthquake in southern California by bombing the San Andreas fault. So it's obviously possible. (In the movies, anyway.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That was a plain ol' nucular bomb, and movies are movies, and Tabriz is Eureka, not LA. μηδείς (talk) 05:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Tabriz is a vaccuum cleaner? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

What company makes this journal?

I have a journal whose cover simply says "Journal" with a characteristic font, which journal I have seen in other places as well. It looks like a unique enough style that it would be just one company that makes it, but there is no UPC, ISBN, or identifying information on any of the inner pages.

Who makes this? Peter Michner (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What's in it? It doesn't look very distinctive to me. It just looks like that kind of blank books you can buy in any stationers to use as your personal journal/diary. --Tango (talk) 21:08, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing but pages with lines. Nothing at all but that. And after searching many many result pages on Amazon, I cannot find a journal like it. Peter Michner (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this of any use? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

That looks like the one, alright. If only they mentioned where they got it. Peter Michner (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

See this site. The company MeadWestvaco makes similar products. Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Interesting the seemingly Mormon connection. Some guys at the lab use journals just like these for lab notes, and I found that I had this one (but no lab notes in mine). Peter Michner (talk) 22:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

AT-A-GLANCE makes similar products. Bus stop (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's official LDS merchandise: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557_21012_-1__195627 Staecker (talk) 23:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Oops- Viriditas already gave the link. Staecker (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that is the answer, is it meant to imply that Mormons keep a special type of journal? μηδείς (talk) 03:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in fact they do. According to Mormonism and history, "Mormon youths and their sisters are exhorted to keep journals as part of their religious commitment. Missionaries are reminded by their superiors that the journals represent a part of their sacred duties." There's at least one website that claims this is the reason there are a higher number of LDS bloggers online than any other religion, but this is probably anecdotal. Viriditas (talk) 04:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps proportionally, but "than" seems incredible. μηδείς (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Note, I would be very interested if this product is made by MeadWestvaco, as it appears identical to other products they produce. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any journals at their website; just packing materials. Peter Michner (talk) 10:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The AT-A-GLANCE "diary" may be comparable. Bus stop (talk) 13:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Those are pretty nice, but I can't figure out why the Standard Diaries are so expensive. That link goes to a $43 one, and I can't even see the big difference between that one and another $109 one at that site. Peter Michner (talk) 13:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If I saw such a book in an Australian shop, I would simply assume it was made in China. Almost everything else in our shops is. It would take quite quite explicit evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. The OP doesn't tell us where he or she is. Most of the replies seem to assume the US. Is there a reason for such a guess? And does that make a difference to the answer? HiLo48 (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So far, the one source I've seen for a journal that looks exactly like this is limited to this Salt Lake City-based church. Of course I don't doubt that they get their journals manufactured in China, I just haven't seen any other sellers that also sell those exact journals. Yes, I'm in the United States. If there are stores elsewhere that sell journals that look exactly like this, that would of course satisfy my curiosity just as well. Peter Michner (talk) 18:18, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting enough, this example [11] also from the LDS (I think) has what looks like the same font and possibly same cover colour (I think the photo is just washed out) but without the outline and I think slightly less font kerning. This site not affliated with the LDS Church but selling LDS gifts also sells them [12] in both red and blue and in two different sizes although they are allegedly suitable for the same purposes. Strangely enough, they also offer 3 font options edit: for your name, but none of the font options seem to precisely match the examples shown. Americana comes close but all variants I've looked at don't have the right-side stroke for the uppercase U and the lowercase u have different serifs (or whatever you call it) at the top so it's not simply a case of large lowercase. Edit2: This site [13] also I think not afflicated with the church itself but selling LDS products and looking nearly the same as the other one in terms of description and generaly layout also sells the blue and red journals in the different sizes. Strangely enough, no sign of it on the official site unless it's something restricted to verified members only. I noticed some of the other LDS stuff seem to have a similar font [14] [15] but it looks more like the real Americana at least in the case of the bible (uppercase U has no right-side downward stroke). Nil Einne (talk) 19:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering if local Deseret Industries stores might sell similar journals? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 06:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Pikes Peak ownership

Who owns Pikes Peak? - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 21:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The people of the United States. It's a National Historic Landmark. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

According to that article, half of the National Historic Landamarks are privately owned, so that doesn't help with the OP's question. RudolfRed (talk) 22:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This site, from the article,[16] shows the National Park Service sign, so it appears to be managed by the federal government. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It appears to be part of Pike National Forest. Rmhermen (talk) 03:48, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Seconded: Pike National Forest. The National Historic Landmarks program is administered by the National Park Service, but unless it was already national park land, the Park Service wouldn't own it. In this case, it's the U.S. Forest Service, an agency of the Department of Agriculture. Acroterion (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There is a renewable (hundred year?) commercial lease for Pike's Peak Cog Railway and a few residences associated with it which aren't part of the Forest Service. 75.166.207.214 (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Deus ex Human rev.

Whom did David Sarif represent in Deus Ex: Human Revolution from a real world standpoint? He seems like a corrupt being, but who? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you read this? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

can you post the reading material here it is blocked for me so i cant read whats on the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 22:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

That would likely be a copyright violation. "Blocked for you"? You're not in China, you're in Peoria. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's licensed CC-BY-SA, so it's not a copyright violation. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Just guessing you dont understand the word blocked just give me the answer from the website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 23:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The page doesn't say anything about who he might resemble; I don't know why that link was given as an answer to this question. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's an article about the subject as requested. Why wouldn't it be given as a link to answer the question? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Deus Ex: Human Revolution isn't a Roman à clef - its characters aren't thinly disguised representations of anyone. Sarif's chief role in the plot seems to be to trick those of us of a suspicious bent (honed to a razor in Deus Ex) that's he's really EvilAllAlong although he mostly isn't. He's largely a techno-utopian and maybe slightly a transhumanist (so you could compare him to Ray Kurzweil or Bill Gates) but really his character is so thinly drawn that he could be compared to almost anyone. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

August 13

Triace brand bicycles?

Hi everyone. Can anyone point me in the direction of some ENG language reviews of Triace brand bicycles? They are huge here in China with products in every market segment, but the only ENG references I can find are to models being sold through Wal-mart, which is not exactly a confidence builder! Ideally something would compare/contrast them with Merida or Giant or some other such well-known brand... Thanks. The Masked Booby (talk) 00:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

A quick google search revealed this: http://runreview.blogspot.no/2011/06/triace-s503-bike-review.html DI (talk) 09:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Sheldon Brown and others discuss the development cycle of bicycle production and industry shift. It may be that Chinese manufacturers are at a point where they are starting up the quality ramp, but that price has not followed. There's something of a video review here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8pwfS3jTvU . Fifelfoo (talk) 02:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Turning wind pressure into weight

We've all seen large windturbines on hill tops. I would like to know if the large blade (propeller)was virtical how much weight would it take to rotate the turbine motor in working mode.150.101.204.218 (talk) 05:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

This is probably better asked at the Science reference desk. Those boffins know about such things. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 05:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Much as it pains me to admit, Jacky O is prolly right. But doesn't the IP mean, "Were it horizontal,...?"? μηδείς (talk) 05:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, correct use of the subjunctive would be along the lines of "Were there fewer unpleasant grammar pedants on the Reference Desk, it would be a more pleasant and productive part of the project." TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Well most us who like to see correct grammar and spelling can cope with "virtical" for "vertical", and might even use "if it was" informally for the pedant's "if it were", but I think Medeis was just distinguishing vertical from horizontal. Dbfirs 14:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Exalctly. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah, well. I feel silly for failing at reading comprehension. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter where the question is asked, there is no possible way to answer it. The blades are balanced, so the answer comes down to friction, and the level of friction inside a wind turbine depends on countless things. Looie496 (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

You may be interested in this thread: Physics Forum: force needed to turn a windmill generator? which I didn't really understand, not being a boffin and all . You may also find some information in RenewableUK Briefing Sheets - How does wind energy work?. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Given that for efficiency reasons the friction is very low, the mass required would also be very low. If the mass is placed on the outer edge it will not have to be as large as if it is placed closer to the centre due to mechanical leverage. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on large commercial turbines, but from my experience of much smaller wind generators, I would comment that the torque required varies depending on the orientation of the blades with respect to the generator magnets, so will vary up to a maximum at a certain position. (The geometry of large turbines is probably more sophisticated.) The weight required just to overcome friction (with the generator disconnected) will be very small, as mentioned above. Weight will be most effective when applied at the tip of a horizontal blade (to maximise torque), but the much greater weight required in generator mode will depend on the power of the generator and the configuration of the generator mechanism. (The answer to the question as asked is that no amount of weight, however great, attached to the top of a vertical blade will turn it because the line of action of the weight will pass through the centre of the rotor, thus generating zero torque. Of course, a very slight displacement from the vertical will change the unstable equilibrium.) Dbfirs 06:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Passing the world record but not getting gold

How common is it for an athlete at the Olympics to best the pre-Olympics world record mark but not manage to get a gold medal? In the current games, Im Dong-Hyun broke the world record in his archery event during a preliminary round and then failed to medal at the finals. In weight lifting, Tatiana Kashirina beat the pre-Olympics world records for both the snatch and combined totals in her weight class, but missed a gold when Zhou Lulu managed an even higher combined weight. How common are outcomes like this, where someone breaks the world record but still doesn't get to the gold medal in the end? Dragons flight (talk) 12:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone has crunched the necessary numbers, but it happens more often than you think. This year's Olympic swimming championships included both gold and silver medallists breaking the old world record. I'll have a go at finding that. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't find that one. I think I was thinking of one of the races where the old Olympic record was broken by gold and silver medallists. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

So did the men's relay in track. Rmhermen (talk) 16:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The GB Women's pursuit cycling team broke six world records in six consecutive runs in the same event (the last won them a team Gold)[17]. Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

For racing events there is a little logic issue to be careful with. If the first place getter breaks the world record, then their time is now the world record, so the second place getter cannot ever beat the world record in the same race. Tammy's statement is accurately written. Gold and Silver medallists may both have beaten the OLD world record, but not the current world record. HiLo48 (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that the question is based on the premise of a new world record being set in the heats of the event, but not bettered in the final; which is often a more tactical race than a record attempt. Apologies if you had already appreciated that and I misunderstood your last post. Alansplodge (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Please note my use of the words "in the same race". I think we're on the same wavelength here. HiLo48 (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There was the case of the women's team sprint team from China who beat the world record in the qualification round, beat their just set record in the first round then were relegated in their final race against Germany meaning they ended up with the silver (their time before relegation was faster then Germany but slower then even the old world record) [18] [19].

Of course in most sports what you did in earlier rounds doesn't count, only what you did in the final round. While not setting a world or even olympics record Vitezslav Vesely threw a 88.34m in qualification round, nearly 4 metres clear of anyone else in either the qualification or final but failed to medal after throwing nothing better then a 83.34m in the final round. The surprised Trinidad and Tobago athlete Keshorn Walcott was the gold medalist (only the second ever olympics gold medallist for his country), as our article says "becoming the youngest-ever Olympic champion in javelin throw[4] and the second non-European to ever win the Olympic gold in men's javelin throw since Cy Young" and http://www.london2012.com/athletics/event/men-javelin-throw/phase=atm053900/index.html]).

Nil Einne (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Warren Potent equalled the world record to qualify for the Beijing games, but ended up with the bronze. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Historically, the most spectacular examples were, possibly:

• 1968 triple jump WR increased once in the heats and four times in the final, with 5 men exceeding the pre-games WR
• 1980 pentathlon WR broken three times in 1.6 seconds.

jnestorius^(talk) 17:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Not Olympics (or not any more, anyway), but here's a possible oddity. Let's suppose Abel is on base and Baker is at bat. As it happens, they are tied for the all-time record in runs scored. Baker knocks it out of the park. Abel scores, and at that moment he holds the record. As soon as Baker rounds the bases and touches the plate, they're tied again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Motor oil on lawn

Hello--

I spilled about a quart of motor oil on my lawn, is there a way I can remove the oil without damaging the grass? Albacore (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Putting cat litter on it will help soak up some of it. That's generally what people put on their garage floors to clean up oil drippings there. Use the old fashioned clay stuff. Dismas|^(talk) 20:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I seriously doubt it if it already soaked in (I would assume it has since you took the time to get online and ask the question). Shadowjams (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If you're afraid of pets licking it off the grass, you might want to blot the area with paper towels. You won't get it all, of course. StuRat (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you thinking of antifreeze? Motor oil will just make them regular. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

If it's used oil, it will have various heavy metals in it and combustion products, none of which is particularly good to consume. It could also have tiny, sharp pieces of metal in it. StuRat (talk) 03:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• You're screwed. It will kill the grass and any new grass you plant there. The only reliable solution is to dig up the grass and the oil-soaked dirt, put down new dirt, and replant. Looie496 (talk) 01:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree exactly with Looie, nothing to be done but excavate and replace. Richard Avery (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Used motor oil is also quite good at killing trees and many other things too, like all those things that live in soil (worms, slugs, etc.) That's probably why most countries have warning over the outside of oil cans telling you to take care with disposal. You will want to dig it up and put in new, clean dirt. Astronaut (talk) 11:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

And rather than dumping it in the trash, probably take it to a hazardous waste disposal center? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Nano sponges [20].  Card Zero  (talk) 14:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is the Material Safety Data Sheet for one brand of motor oil. Paper towels, could be used to blot it up when a small amount like a quart is spilled.on grass. Garages and utilities use absorbant devices with an outer fabric and an inner absorbant, which would avoid the problem of trying to collect the cat litter dumped on the oily grass. (Its easier when the spill is on concrete). It might well kill the grass anyway, and a quart should only contaminate a small area, so you might take grass cutting shears and lop off the contaminated grass near the ground, to reduce soil contamination. Edison (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Astronaut has it. You state/locality may regulate disposal. I once had to help dig up part of the Mojave desert after 50 gallons of diesel was spilled. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

August 14

Fan speed controls

Sometimes you look closely at something familiar, and a small detail gets you to wondering. I have three electric fans, each a different model, size, design and manufacturer. On all of them, the speed controller goes OFF • HIGH • MEDIUM • LOW. Why this order? It seems more logical that the controller would gradually step up the speed.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 01:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I remember reading or being told that it's better for the motor to switch from off to high, but I don't know enough details to back that up. Here are some things I've found online:

Straight Dope Message Board - Why are fan controls setup that way? - post 9

Later in the thread, the same poster links to USA Today - Wonderquest - Struggling Fans

--Bavi H (talk) 02:05, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Because most people will use the high setting in normal occasions, so it saves time and wristwear? Bavi's answer seems quite likely. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

For those of us who immediately switch from off over to low, it sounds like we should instead set it on high first, then knock it to medium and low? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a certain room in the house that is hot due to sun exposure, and almost always run a fan when I am in it. I always turn the fan to high to get it up to speed, rather than hear it labor at low speed, but usually turn it down to low if I run it more than a minute or so. μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if this is related, but I was told by a gas fitter to put my gas fire on the High setting immediately after switching it on, so that the flue would warm up: apparently it works better when warmer. I wonder if the "works better if warmed up" principle applies to this question too? --TammyMoet (talk) 08:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense. This section has been a good learning experience. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

But, whatever you do, don't leave it on overnight in a closed room! AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeh, especially if it's blowing dry ice around. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that the first answer at Straight Dope is right - give it the power to get started first. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I wonder, does this apply to pretty much anything with a low-med-hi control? Like for example, a ceiling fan, or the A/C and heater fan in the car? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the setup going from off to high is pure marketing: impress the consumer. Bus stop (talk) 02:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

From memory, all fans I've ever used in both Malaysia and New Zealand actually went from off to low speeds to high speeds or had a continous dial (so you couldn't say which direction it went) or had the speed seperate from the off or had buttons for speed rather then a dial (although even then the other would normally be off to low speed to high speed). Nil Einne (talk) 03:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Drama - Villa for Sale

While reading the drama - 'Villa for Sale' written by Sacha Guitry, I didn't got the meaning of two sentences. Those sentences are -

1. Jeanne: What on earth will the lady think of us?
   
2. Jeanne: What on earth are you driving at?
   

In both sentences, the main confusing term is "What on earth". I want to know the meaning of both sentences and confusing term. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 14:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

"On earth" is an expletive: see wikt:on earth. "What on earth" just means "what", but with added emphasis. Semantically, it is saying "what (including extreme possibilities that might be found in extreme places)?"

If "what are you driving at" puzzles you, that phrase driving at could be replaced with getting at, or (less commonly) digging at. The question means: what fact is the speaker trying to establish? Less literally, it means "what do you mean?"  Card Zero  (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

"What on earth...?" is a generic and much politer thing to say than "What in hell...?" or similar such stuff. It also has extensions, such as, "What on God's green earth...?" etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk •contribs) 23:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

It's also the same as saying "What the f**k", but obviously much more polite than that... gazhiley 09:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting how people say "Shut the fuck up" and "Shut the hell up", but not "Shut the earth up". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 11:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

UK to US electricity conversion

I'm in the US where we have 120 volt A/C. I want to get a lamp made in the UK that is designed for their 220-250 volts. There are simple adapters so I can plug the UK plug into a US socket, but won't the lamp be about half as bright as I do that? If so, a voltage converter will make it work correctly, right? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

In general, yes, you would need a device which has a transformer in it to convert from 120v to 240v AC for the lamp to work as designed. However if the lamp is a simple one that uses incandescent bulbs and has no other electronics, I wonder if it might be possible to replace or adapt the light-bulb socket to take a US-bulb (light-bulbs in th UK typically use a bayonet-style fitting and will only produce the intended light-level at 240v). Dave w74 (talk) 06:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It depends on the type of lamp. For a constant resistance, you would expect the lamp to be about a quarter as bright (because it would draw only half the current, and light output is (very roughly) proportional to power (watts = volts x amps)). In reality, the resistance of an incandescent lamp increases with temperature, so the power will be slightly more than a quarter. The lamp will be almost useless at 120 v because it will glow only dimly, and will give out more heat than light. Many US households do have 240v available, but not on lighting circuits. Employ an electrician to provide you with a 240v lighting outlet. A "voltage converter" might solve your problem if it is designed to handle the power of the lamp (transformers are the traditional method, but Switched-mode power supply voltage converters might also work. If your lamp if of the fluorescent type, it may already contain switched-mode circuitry, and unpredictable effects often result when connecting two such circuits. For safety and economic reasons, I would advise you not to try this -- I've blown switch-mode circuitry in the past. Dbfirs 07:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

August 15

VACCC colors

I recently found myself looking at some color charts with names I was quite unfamiliar with, such as "Obscure Weak Green" or "Dark Dull Orange" or "Violet Violet Blue" — often just identified by their three-letter initials (e.g., OWG, DDO, VVB). They were listed as being "VACCC colors", although they all corresponded to web-safe RGB or hex colors. Does anyone know what this is all about?

It apparently stands for "VisiBone Anglo-Centric Color Codes for Graphics", but I have no idea what that means. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

This might be a starting point. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Monthly Prize Draw

Tried for several days to enter for the monthly drawing on www.gems.tv/myviews and www.rockstv.com/myviews and neither are in service. This page needs to be fixed or tell me another way to enter the drawing? Please respond.

four tildes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denisedodson (talk • contribs) 12:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. You'd be better talking to people who are connected with either of the websites you've mentioned, rather than talking to the wikipedia reference desk, which has never heard of the two websites in question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

When you sign, you need to type 4 actual tildes (that's 4 of this symbol: ~), not the words "four tildes". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Although Jack it's more funny when they don't! :D Made me giggle a little anyways! four tildes... I mean gazhiley 14:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

human tongue,

I am now 66 years of age and found when I was 7,that when I stick out my tongue and without touching it by hand can bend the edges down like an inverted U.I have never found anyone in all this years that can do that.Please comment. Piet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.145.77.9 (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean rolling your tongue, but upside down? There is no mention of it in that article. While it is commonly believed that tongue rolling is genetic, there is no evidence of that. It seems more likely to just be a skill you can learn like any other. It wouldn't surprise me if the same is true of doing it upside down, but just that fewer people learn to do it. --Tango (talk) 12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

how many of you are now staring at the screen while trying to bend your tongue downwards at the sides! I just found myself instantly doing trying it! gazhiley 14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I cannot believe that tongue rolling is just something people learn. I know a family where they can all do it instantly and effortlessly, without sitting around and gradually learning how, whether children or old people, while no amount of practice has given me any ability to do it at all. Textbooks commonly state that the ability is genetically based: [21]., [22]. Sturtevant says it is polygenic and modifiable by learning.[23]. 30% are still left unable to do it. Edison (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-refund credit transaction to a payment card account

I am trying to close a bank account in a different eurozone country from my current domicile. I have a valid debit card for the account but the balance is overdrawn by about €10. So I need to transfer €10 into the account to be able close it. I guess I will do this by SWIFT payment even though it will cost about €4 in fees, ie 40% of the balance. But if it was to a non-euro country it would be €25 for an IBAN transfer, which would really have annoyed me. So I got to thinking: is there a cheaper way? Something like this:

Merchants will credit your debit card account as a refund if you undo a purchase which was paid by that debit card: I buy a book, merchant swipes card and debits my account by €25; hours later, with buyer's remorse, I return the book in mint condition with proof of purchase, merchant swipes card and credits my account with €25. Is it possible to use the same system to do a non-refund credit? In theory for my above case, I could get a friendly merchant to fake a refund; I hand over €10 cash and my card; they put the cash in the till, swipe my card and credit the €10 to my account. One problem is that the merchant incurs a cost from the card provider for each transaction. So let's say I give him €11, he credits my account with €10 and the other €1 pays his fees to the card company; I've still saved €24 compared to the cost of an IBAN.

A serious objection to the above is that it is fraudulent and presumably illegal; that's not why merchants have EFTPOS connections to payment companies. But what about a company like Western Union? Is this a service they actually provide or potentially could? Or is there a legal requirement (e.g. for money-laundering prevention) to tie each payment card transaction to an exchange of goods and services, rather than merely moving money around? jnestorius^(talk) 14:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Harold Halma

What does Harold Halma refer to, in this photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harold_Halma_photograph_of_Capote.jpg ? The photographer? 117.226.210.176 (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)