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September 17

What other famous movies besides Wizard of OZ has portrayed witches to be cackling, old, wrinkly, evil, you get the idea..............

What other famous movies besides Wizard of OZ has portrayed witches to be cackling, old, wrinkly, evil, you get the idea.............. Neptunekh2 (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it all started with the Scottish play. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, many versions of Macbeth portray witches that way, although Shakespeare's original depiction of them is somewhat more spiritual than demonic.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 17:25, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

How famous is famous enough? Does Hocus Pocus count? Dismas|^(talk) 17:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

How about Suspiria or Wild at Heart (film)? It's hard to measure the famousness of films, it's true. The Witches (1990 film) is another obvious contender.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:14, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

More infamous for camp than famous, perhaps, was the "Wilhelmina W. Witchiepoo" character from the H.R. Pufnstuf TV series and Pufnstuf (film). StuRat (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Then there's the witch in Pumpkinhead, although not sure if that qualifies as "famous", either. StuRat (talk) 18:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Both the Tom and Jerry animated shorts and the Loony Tunes ones featured the stereotypical pointy-hatted green-skinned warty witches. See "The Flying Sorceress" (T&J) and Witch Hazel (Looney Tunes) for examples. --Jayron32 19:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

At the very least, Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937 film), out 2 years before TWOZ, had the witch pretty much that way except for having normal-colored skin. So it was probably already a well-known stereotype. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It's probably more fruitful to ask the opposite question... 'cause right now, I'd say "all of'em have". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:17, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Not really. "Good witches" are about as common as "bad witches" in fiction. We have the two good witches on the Oz books, conflated into one in the movie (Glinda), Samantha on Bewitched, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, etc. Of course, there is the stereotype that good witches are pretty and bad witches are ugly, although Snow White was an exception, where the evil witch was apparently "the second fairest in the land". Wicked (musical) also played around with our good versus evil assumptions. StuRat (talk) 23:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In Snow White, the witch wasn't cackling, old or ugly. That was just her disguise in her attempt to help save Snow from incurring unnecessary medical expenses. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:22, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

And for UK readers, although I don't think Evil Edna was ever in a movie... Willo the Wisp --TammyMoet (talk) 01:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The Witch in Snow White? She was that "pink right down to her underwear", first in a long line of lefty California congresswomen, Helen Gahagan Douglas. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

For late 70's and 80's kids T-Bag will bring back memories... gazhiley 12:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

That article says you're a decade behind the times. StuRat (talk) 14:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I presume gazhiley is referring to the year of birth of the children, not when they were children, in which case the suggestion seems reasonable. Nil Einne (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget Enchanted; however, that film is derivative from other classic Disney films. Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 17:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

are horror movies more popular in the summer or at Halloween?

are horror movies more popular in the summer or at Halloween? Neptunekh2 (talk) 16:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

How do you objectively define "more popular"? Are you referring to rentals of videos? Box office sales of new releases? If the latter, it might be a biased viewpoint since studios may want to connect Halloween and the movie. Dismas|^(talk) 17:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Even defining "horror movie" could be slippery. But I think Neptune's best bet would be to take the top 10 or 20 horror movies by total box office, then see what time of year they were introduced. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Even defining "summer" could be slippery - WP:SEASON. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Only one of the Friday the 13th (franchise) release dates was not between late April and Early August. I suggest you check other such franchises. μηδείς (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Shadowjams (talk) 11:00, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Finding 1990 census maps

Hi! I want to find what the city limits of College Park, Georgia were in 1990. How do I access the 1990 U.S. census maps so I can make it source-able to Wikipedia and accessible to an average person? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

If you don't mind me asking, to what end are you trying to establish those city limits? It would help to answer the second part of your question, which would be to make it a valid source for a Wikipedia article. In order to answer whether it is or isn't a valid source, we need to know "a source to say what"? Also, there's no requirement that a source is accessable online. It merely needs to be reasonably availible to the public, such as in a public library. Have you tried the public library of College Park, Georgia? They would likely have old maps in their archives. --Jayron32 22:17, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I am trying to find whether the headquarters of ValuJet (in 1994) were ever in the City of College Park, and AFAIK the best way to establish that is through the 1990 US Census map of the College Park city limits. Unfortunately I cannot access the College Park, GA library in person, but perhaps a Wikipedian in Atlanta could find this out? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, the article claims that the headquarters was at 1800 Phoenix Boulevard, Atlanta, Georgia. No idea if this postal address was within the city limits of College Park. However, you want to take care with drawing your own conclusions from primary government documents. Several places in Wikipedia (including WP:OR, WP:PRIMARY and WP:BLPPRIMARY) caution against drawing any conclusions or performing your own analysis on a primary source. I have no opinion one way or the other whether or not this is or is not an appropriate use of the primary source here, but a map clearly is a primary source, and you should be aware that one should not try to put one's own interpretation on what the primary source means. --Jayron32 03:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This is different: it's not OR or SYNTH to take a map showing a city's boundaries and from that to say that a specific address is inside or outside those boundaries. Nyttend (talk) 12:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. I'm just saying that I wouldn't call the issue settled one way or another. One could make a case from similar situations using other government documents that similar usages aren't allowed. For example, one cannot use a government document to establish the birthplace of a person. One can cite a reliable secondary source which does so, but not the original government documents. So there are cases where similar uses of primary sources aren't normally allowed. I'm not saying he's fine, and I'm not saying he's not. I'm saying I wouldn't call the matter unambiguosly settled. --Jayron32 12:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec) As far as the Census Bureau goes I think you will need to use GIS to access the 1990 geographic data, which is online in a database/format known as TIGER, here: Cartographic Boundary Files. Unless you're experience with GIS and TIGER it might prove difficult to find the right data and make the map you want. I don't think the Census Bureau has online mapping apps or premade maps for 1990 data at this point, other than for larger things like whole states, county boundaries, etc. I could be wrong, the Census runs a vast website. There may (or may not) be 1990 census map data for your city somewhere on the Internet other than the Census's website, but I wouldn't know where. And yes, as Jayron32 said, I would check local sources, such as the city and county's Planning Departments, GIS Departments, and such. Fulton County GIS is here. If nothing else you could probably call or email them. They probably have 1990 census geographic data even if they don't make it available online. And they might have such data online, perhaps via that Annexation Query Tool or one of their other web apps. Pfly (talk) 22:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Here are the Fulton County census tract maps for 1990 in pdf format.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 07:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Note that these maps state: "The boundaries shown on this map are for the Census Bureau's statistical data collection and tabulation purposes only; their depiction and designation for statistical purposes does not constitute a determination of jurisdictional authority or rights or ownership or entitlement." You need either the official municipal map or a map authoritatively based on that map. Our College Park, Georgia article links to the current map; perhaps if you contact the city they can provide you a 1994 map. John M Baker (talk) 17:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

A quick look on Google Maps tells me that the surrounding businesses all identify themselves as being in College Park. And this Google map seems to show the city limits. Do you have any reason to suspect that 1800 Phoenix Boulevard is somehow outside College Park, or that the city limits might have been different in 1990? Astronaut (talk) 18:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

September 18

British working class leisure in the 1800s

What was the most common way British working class men, women, and children spent their leisure time, in the 1800s? Was there any leisure time activity that men, women, and children could all enjoy? Or was there no activity that included both genders and all ages? Rebel Yeh (talk) 01:47, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

My impression is that working class men, women, and children in the 1800s didn't have much leisure time. In fairness, though, the situation changed enormously between the beginning of the century and the end of the century. The beginning of the century was the era of Oliver Twist. By the end of the century, many working class families could take a train to go bathing at the seaside. Looie496 (talk) 02:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Liquor? Doesn't the line go something like "Work is the curse of the drinking class?" or something like that? --Jayron32 03:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Gaming, fighting, animal fighting, church, education associations, labour (cf: Frame knitters in EP Thompson). The 19th century, and Britain both are very large. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

As the century progressed, the music hall became the most popular way for working people to pass the time. It was quite inclusive: audience and performers were all ages and both (or all) genders. I'm not sure what Fifelfoo means by listing "labour" as a leisure time activity: labour was what people did at work as far as I know! --TammyMoet (talk) 08:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Did you not like the answers you got from Straight Dope (AK84 has the best answer there) or Yahoo? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

EP Thompson argues cogently over a very extensive section of The Making of the English Working Class, that labour outside of the factory system, for example the frame knitters of the late putting out system experienced sufficient job control and pleasure in work that their work was effectively an extensive leisure activity. The factory system was imposed during the beginning of the 19th century, it was no more natural than people starving amidst plenty, or deliberately addicting millions of Indians and Chinese people to opium because of a balance of trade issue. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Marxists should remember that the large majority of people were not relaxing by working, and that the question was "most common way", so something that appealed to only a small number of people has no chance at being the answer to the question. Nyttend (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Historical research has moved on since EP Thompson wrote, and there are records of the utter degrading poverty suffered by many framework knitters, especially in the area of Leicestershire. I shall try and locate the reference for the statements of the FWK in Kibworth later. I am not convinced that any of them would love their work so much that it was a leisure activity. What the OP was looking for is something that varied from place to place, decade to decade. However the life of the working class was never Utopian. (Now I remember why I read Thompson's book once and disregarded it - it just didn't ring true to my experience.) --TammyMoet (talk) 12:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look round and can only go to the secondary source I recall, which refers to the Muggeridge report on the abject poverty suffered by the framework knitters in Kibworth in the early 19th century. Also to Sir Frederick Eden's survey "The State of the Poor". As Michael Wood says: "the reality was anything but romantic... for all members of a family to be engaged in order to scrape a meagre living was a sign of poverty and wretchedness rather than well-being". The factory system hadn't reached Kibworth by 1850. One thing the factory system did was to establish set hours for work and leisure, and reading Wood's book, it could be said to have improved the lot of framework knitters, at least in Kibworth. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The idea of the slow dissolution of the moral economy is still valid the last time I checked, and my reading on frame work knitters is that they were beneficiaries of a skill/power construction over a limited period of time. For the penury of the fwk look into Thompson. I think it is undeniable that pre-Factory work systems had a higher level of worker control of immediate performance of duties and that kinds of leisure were interleaved throughout the working day in many occupations due to that worker control. Penury isn't incompatible with leisure as contemporary advanced western societies demonstrate with regularity. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:40, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting but what's all that got to do with the original question then. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Nothing. It's just the way of non-alienated work-leisure: hunting down a useful answer in the morning, fishing for a good argument in the afternoon, rearing controversy in the evening, and criticising after dinner. [1] Itsmejudith (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, Alan Metcalf in "Leisure and Recreation in a Victorian Mining Community" lists (non-sporting) reading and self-education, temperance societies, gardening (including flower and vegetable shows), friendly societies, choral singing, brass bands, "quadrill societies" (ballroom dancing), attending lectures and shows by travelling entertainers, religious activities, community celebrations and of course, the pub. I can't see the pages on sport, but whippet and pigeon racing had their origins in the Victorian working classes and of course football. Catriona M. Parratt, More Than Mere Amusement: Working-Class Women's Leisure in England, 1750-1914 argues that women were often excluded from leisure activities because of domestic duties or low wages requiring long working hours. She does say that on Saturday night, many would get dressed up and head for the main street of their town which would be busy with entertainers, stalls and booths like a fairground. Alansplodge (talk) 16:36, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Leisure was very much divided, not just by sex but also by location and religion. The Church of England didn't expand into the mill towns as quickly as the population grew, which gave the conservative Evangelical churches - Baptists, Methodists, etc. - an advantage in those towns. The Evangelicals were fairly strict, eschewing gambling, drink, theatre-going (in the beginning at least), and other forms of recreation considered less savoury, and the working classes in those areas were likely spent their time off work not on what we would consider hobbies but on Bible reading, attending services, attending speeches and sermons by travelling ministers, etc. --NellieBly (talk) 17:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Identifying a cigarette carton

File:Simuation of carton production - showing problems with die cut.jpg is up for deletion at WP:PUF as a "Derivative work of a box or something". Can anyone identify the production date? It's clearly a US production (note the bit about US taxes), and I'm wondering if it might qualify as {{PD-US-no notice}}, but I know nothing about cigarette cartons and thus don't know how to search for information. Nyttend (talk) 06:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

"Clope" is apparently French slang for a cigarette, and the lack of a brand name makes me think they are either a generic product or meant to be repackaged as French cigarettes. I can't find anything about the elephant logo. So, no luck so far. StuRat (talk) 06:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

It does look like someone (with some knowledge of French) created a fake cigarette label for illustrative purposes. The elephant logo is also incongruous, and probably a play on a more famous dromedary-like brand of cigarettes. --Xuxl (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The biggest clue might be in the the file name which includes the word "simulation". Indeed, the uploader, User:Peterqherman, seems to be working on a draft article in his userspace, though that and a few image uploads is all they have done in 18 months. Astronaut (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

What is a waddy?

Not meaning an Australian Aboriginal weapon. This one is a kind of street. ... I have heard of streets, roads, avenues, lanes, boulevards and so on all over the place. But this one I remember from when I was a kid and lived near there. It's called "Whaleback Waddy" in Boonton Township, New Jersey (see map here). It's not Whaleback Waddy Street, just Whaleback Waddy. Does anyone know how and why this thoroughfare has such an unusual name? Is it related to the Australian term? Are there waddys (waddies?) like this anywhere else in the U.S., or elsewhere in the world? Thank you.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 06:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's a corruption of wadi, a valley.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I clicked on Helen Gahagan Douglas a couple of threads above, and learned she was born in Boonton Township, New Jersey, a place I'd never heard of before. Now, it's mentioned again here. Spooky. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah! The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon has visited itself upon you, I see! --Jayron32 12:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Will I survive?  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You will, as long as you can avoid Boonton Township. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

To the OP's question. Interesting. Occasionally, you do run into street names that don't have "street" or "road" or "way" or "avenue" at the end. The most famous I can think of is The Bowery in New York City, which isn't "Bowery Street" or "Bowery Road". It's just "Bowery". I wonder if that is a case here. I can't find any reference to Waddy being used as a street or road designation anywhere. It's not listed at Street or road name, so perhaps this is a case where Waddy isn't supposed to be a street designation, but it is somehow part of the name in another way. Though I also can't, for the life of me, figure out what a Waddy is in this context, even what a Whaleback Waddy is. The street definately exists (a google search brings up addresses, and confirms that that is the complete name). I'm still looking, but I've turned up nil so far. --Jayron32 12:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

There's a town called Waddy in Shelby County, Kentucky. No idea if there is a connection. --Jayron32 12:40, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

There's also Samuel Danks Waddy. No idea if there's a connection there either. Marnanel (talk) 16:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This says it is Western US slang for cowboy / origin uncertain. The same is stated here. Ibid, whaleback is defined as a cargo vessel with a convex deck. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd say a word for an Australian weapon is more likely to be relevant here than a word for a cowboy, despite the relative geographic distances. —Tamfang (talk) 05:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

How so, Tamfang? Are there any other examples of weapon names being used for road types? Pennsylvania Rifle? Wall Bazooka? Hollywood Dagger? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If you prefer, you can read "more likely" as "not quite as absurd". Perhaps the road is shaped like a sketch of a whatsit. —Tamfang (talk) 08:28, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Shantavira's suggestion has some logic to it as wadi is a geographical term, but as I recall, Whaleback Waddy is not in a valley, but on a hillside, and a rather steep one at that. (Although it has been about 45 years since I have been there!)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 15:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Note that roads are often not named for where they are but where they lead. For example, we have Michigan Avenue, in Chicago, Illinois. So, if Whaleback Waddy leads to a valley, that may explain the name. Think of it as "Hill Valley Road", a road on a hill, leading to a valley. StuRat (talk) 15:58, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Michigan Avenue does end up at Lake Michigan on LSD, but Ohio Street doesn't go to Ohio. --Jayron32 17:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

There's just no accounting for some things. Obviously, Michigan Avenue fronts on Lake Michigan, or at least it used to before all the landfill. It's crossed by streets named Ontario, Erie, Huron and Superior. There's an Ohio street, yes. There's also an Illinois Street and a Chicago Avenue, in case anyone forgets where they are. There are other state streets, including Delaware, and fittingly enough, State Street (that Great Street). There are also presidential streets, including Adams, which is often skipped in cities that use presidential streets, as he wasn't very popular. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:42, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. When I lived in Chicago, I lived in the midst of the President streets, on Polk Street; other parallel streets were Harrison and Taylor, two presidents that don't often get streets named after them either. --Jayron32 02:25, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The answer will probably be in the bowels of the local municipal authority's records. Someone must have decided to call it that, and that decision must be recorded somewhere. My own experience of looking for the origins of certain street names has been fraught with surprising difficulties. As often as not there's no online record, and you have to go to your local library or track down the council's archivist and look up some dusty old tome recording the deliberations of the council in 1943 or whenever the street was named. Even then, it might record only that that name was chosen on that day, but not why. Best of luck. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

A relative of mine came home drying some tears from elementary school one day. At the end of the day, the teacher announced that anyone who lived on a road was dismissed. Then anyone who lived on a street. Then anyone who lived on a way. Anyone who lived on an avenue. Anyone who lived on a court. A place. The only student left, she broke out sobbing. "What's wrong?" asked the teacher. "I live on a North!" μηδείς (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Extra-antipodarians might not quite get it, but there’s a whimsical little gem of a movie called Road to Nhill (1997). It includes a scene where someone’s phoned the tow truck driver to explain where the scene of the accident is, and they say it’s on (what sounds like) Nhill road. The truckie comes back with "Is that Nhill Road or the road to Nhill?" Because it turns out that there is a road called "Nhill Road" somewhere in the locality but it doesn’t take you to Nhill. You have to be on "the road to Nhill" to get to or from Nhill. That road has some other official name, probably the Western Highway, but the locals call it "the road to Nhill". Hence the title. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

How is Nhill pronounced? μηδείς (talk) 03:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly like "nil". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the person that named the road was once a sailor on a whaleback that happened to be called Waddy. Odd name for a ship but not unheard of, 1929 and 1891. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Waddy is so rare that there isn't an official US Postal Service abbreviation. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I found this which seems to say ,see second definition,that it's a word for cowboy or rustler in the US.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/waddy Hotclaws (talk) 08:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Huge differences in the number of patents generated by big companies in different industries

This is something I've noticed and it confuses me. Why is it that a company like Samsung produces thousands of patents a year and another company like Cessna produces only 10 patents every 10 years. It's not like Cessna isn't developing new planes and I'm sure there are thousands of little innovations in every new plane that could be patented. But why is there such a huge gap in patent activity?

Weirdnoises (talk) 10:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure that at least part of the answer is that patent portfolios are important elements in the corporate "armoury" in the IT and electronics sectors: "I've got more patents than you have, so you're probably infringing more of mine than I am of yours. Do you want to slug it out, or shall we come to an amicable arrangement recognising my superior fire power?" --ColinFine (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Civil aviation manufacturers are in fact extremely conservative when it comes to product design. The designs of some of Cessna's most popular products such as the 182 and 210 date back many decades. Any change that is significant enough to be patentable would most probably require the entire aircraft to be certified as a completely new type - an extremely expensive and high risk excercise. One could say that in aviation the first law of design is "Don't fix what aint broke!". The differences between a 1970 Cessna 182 and one that came off the factory line yesterday are either cosmetic or in accessories such as radios and instruments - which are not made by Cessna. Even the engines they use are basically WW2-era technology. Cessna does not in fact develop more than maybe one or two models in a decade and then in most cases its a matter of detail tweaks of existing designs. New "blank sheet" designs are very rare. Roger (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but is it possible Cessna has no significant business rivals? - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 13:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Roger hit on the reason. Completely new designs in aviation are very risky. Consider that composite materials used in recent decades in aviation have been the cause of at least one crash (because, unlike normal materials, composite materials are more flammable and those weakened due to delamination aren't always visually apparent: [2]). It's better to stick with proven technology. In consumer electronics, on the other hand, anyone selling a decades-old design would go bankrupt fast. StuRat (talk) 14:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Different industries have different economic ecosystems and different relationships to patents. Consumer electronics as a field has been engaged in patent wars for decades now. Comparing Samsung (or any electronics company) with Cessna is comparing apples with oranges when it comes to making sense of their patent situation, much less the nature of their research and development cycles. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

...and there are many patents for Apples. StuRat (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This actually was being discussed today on NPR just an hour or so ago. According to that discussion, the competition level among technology companies these days is so intense that they tend to patent every little development in every little part, in an attempt to stay ahead of their competitors (and to hold them back). It might be a new kind of microcircuit that they have no use for at this time, but someone at the company thinks it might be useful someday, and if it ever does get used, they want to be certain it is their company that uses it. (I forget who was making that point. However, it was on the program "Talk of the Nation" on 18 September 2012, in a segment titled "Can Anyone Compete With Apple?" Go here if you would like to listen to it.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 21:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Do delivery services intentionally delay slower deliveries ?

I am expecting a package to be delivered soon (my dimmer switches), and have been tracking it's progress. I choose the free shipping option, which promised 5-8 days. It looks like they may actually be delaying it to make it exactly 8 days. I say this because it was "scanned in" at the FedEx processing center one day and not "scanned out" for 48 hours. Now, they certainly can process a package through the center quicker than that, and this time of the year I wouldn't expect any backlog (unlike at Xmas). So, do they intentionally hold up packages which haven't paid for premium shipping, to make customers more willing to pay for the upgrade ? StuRat (talk) 14:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know the reason, but I've seen, while tracking packages coming to me, entries of "Not scheduled for delivery" or similar.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't have any special knowledge of FedEx, but I do have a few points that might be useful. From personal experience with UPS and a few other courier services (though not FedEx, oddly), there's little or no difference between the "free shipping" option and the expedited services until you get into the premium same-day kind of thing. The slower, "free", option seems to have more to do with the supplier getting around to putting it in the post; i.e. the slow down is internal to the vendor, not the delivery company. I've also worked in the distribution business for years and can tell you that, for courier services, hanging onto your stuff is the last thing they want to do: space is always at a premium. If there's a lag, it probably comes down to the individual run (eg the plane flight or the truck run, etc.) being filled to beyond capacity so lower priority stuff would get bumped first. Matt Deres (talk) 16:40, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the capacity argument makes sense. Just like passenger airlines like to have passengers on standby so they can jam somebody in every seat, shipping companies might benefit from using lower priority packages this way, to ensure that every truck is full. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a good analogy. In this context, your "shipped free" package is flying economy while the package shipped with the next day guarantee is flying first class, with predictable results when there's an unanticipated bit of crowding. Matt Deres (talk) 00:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If you live in a remote or sparsely populated area they might make a delivery there once a week or when they have to send a priority item in your direction. I don't know if FedEx do this, but I know that this is the way a furniture store scheduled deliveries. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, a furniture store presumably has far fewer deliveries to make than FedEx, so needs to do that. And I am in the middle of a city. The dimmer switches were delivered today, BTW, and they all work, too ! StuRat (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Retrieve all questions asked on Wikipedia by Sunny Singh (DAV)

I have asked a number of questions on "Wikipedia:Reference desk" but I don't remember their topics and the date on which the question was asked. Is there any way to retrieve all of them? I searched archives but it didn't displayed all of the asked questions. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 14:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sunny_Singh_(DAV) 93.95.251.162 (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC) Martin.

That's OK in his case, since he has few contributions outside the Ref Desk. However, it does list all contributions here, whether posing a question, updating it, or answering one. A search of the archives using his name is another option: [3]. However, this also lists all Ref Desk contributions, whether they are questions, updates, or answers, and also omits the title of the Q. In addition, recent questions aren't in the archives yet. We do seem to lack a more rigorous way to list all of the questions a person has asked here, without any chaff. StuRat (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had this problem, too, when I want to look at a Q I posted a few days back, but don't recall the desk, or know if it's archived yet. I generally end up manually searching multiple Desks for it, by doing a find on my screen name. I could also look through my contributions, but that tends to be just as tedious. StuRat (talk) 15:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

You can narrow down the search by selecting the "Wikipedia" namespace from the pull down list (like so). However, I've often wondered why the new section tag doesn't seem to work like a proper tag and appears invisible to the filter. Matt Deres (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

You can set user contributions to display 500 entries at a time then ctrl eff for "new section"--but agree, there's gotta be a better way.

Each page has "What links here" in the left column (under "Toolbox"). Do that from your User page; unlike your Contributions list, you won't get duplicates. I see that the list is conveniently short (unlike mine!). —Tamfang (talk) 05:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Tamfang. That was really neat. Easy access to ancient contributions that would have been very difficult to localize otherwise! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

But you won't get edit summaries either telling you whether a new section was created. Do admins have a stronger tool? I have inferred from some of the comments on ANI's that admins are either insanely more willing to do detailed searches, of have better tools. μηδείς (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

That must work because signatures have a link back to your home page. However, signatures on other talk pages would also be included, as would any other links to your home page, and it only lists each day/Desk combo in the archives, whether you asked one question, multiple questions, or none (but responded to somebody else's). As for questions not yet archived, then it only lists the entire desk, which isn't very useful. So, it's another option, but still far from perfect. StuRat (talk) 20:51, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not my fault that the RD doesn't archive more quickly. —Tamfang (talk) 08:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not so sure whether that's your fault or not, Tamfang, we could debate it on the talk page. :) μηδείς (talk) 18:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Wooden Spoons

Why when you put a wooden spoon across a pot of boiling liquid no matter how long it boils it will not spill over the sides of the pot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.45.98 (talk) 18:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, first, it's not true. It's very easy to construct scenarios where boilover will happen with a spoon (for instance, if the pot is filled to the brim). There's also this sort of boilover, which won't be meaningfully affected by a wooden spoon, either. But the general concept is going to be a scenario where something in the pot boils and produces large bubbles, such as the starch-reinforced bubbles that form when you boil pasta. A rough-surfaced whatever (such as a wooden spoon) serves to break those bubbles on contact, reducing the chance that the pot foams over. — Lomn 18:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

See the wikipedia article Boiling chip which has a short description of how something like a wooden spoon can work to reduce boilovers. In chemistry, the term "boilover" is also often called Bumping. --Jayron32 18:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yep. I'll note, though, the distinction between boiling chips and the spoon: the chips are intended to prevent superheating that leads to the sudden explosive onset of boiling; what's key is that they have nucleation sites to allow bubbles to form. The spoon across the top of a pot is to break up bubbles occuring during normal boiling; the rough texture disrupts rather than enables bubbles (but note that a wooden spoon in the pot serves as a boiling chip). In the case of a pot foaming over, boiling chips won't have much effect. There's also the other pasta option of adding oil to the water to disrupt the surface tension that enables large bubbles. — Lomn 18:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

AH. Thank you. I misread the question. I thought this was refering to putting a wooden spoon inside the pot. Mea culpa. --Jayron32 18:53, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

New research of TOBACCO,,, health item.

Recently I was reading an very interesting story about Tobacco, they were looking for why the tobacco was so indicting and they found a complely different substance with valuable results. I was called away and when I returned all was lost on my computer. It had a note that GNC was selling it but the local GNC store was no help. I would like to find out what it is, which company is selling it and other due diligence, can you help.; I was on the GNC site but suddenly I was here?? Yours Truly Peter Epp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.143.164 (talk) 19:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC) I've reformatted this for ease of reading. Matt Deres (talk) 19:46, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Assuming you mean "addicting", it's primarily the nicotine in tobacco which makes it addicting, although people then develop a psychological link between the tar and nicotine, so that they crave the tar as well. For this reason, nicotine gum, patches, and inhalers aren't 100% effective at smoking cessation. StuRat (talk) 21:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that Nicotine is chemically similar to, and was discovered along side of, several B vitamins, including Nicotinic acid (aka Niacin) and Nicotinamide. The first synthetic Niacin was created in the lab by reacting nicotine with nitric acid. That doesn't mean, of course, that Nicotine of itself has any particular benefit like B-vitamins do. But the history of the two compounds and their discovery is linked. --Jayron32 22:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

September 19

Jamie Lee Curtis early life and career.

I was writing a paper about who my favorite actress was and I chose Jamie Lee Curtis and I have to do a work-cited page on where I got the article, who wrote the article and when, But I keep asking these questions and it will not answer me. I realize that several people may have been writers for these articles. but I would like to know who wrote it? I like to do reaearch too and it would be very helpful if I know who wrote about her and her career? Thanks, please e-mail me the results. <email redacted> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.61.104.64 (talk) 04:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If you mean our article on Jamie Lee Curtis, the list of authors is here: [4]. However, that's a huge list of screen names and internet addresses, not their real names, in most cases. StuRat (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

What you should do instead is look up some of the references we used, here: Jamie_Lee_Curtis#References. Those will have (proper) author names and dates. For example, if you want to write about how much any of her movies made, you could use this reference from our list: [5]. The date is at the top of that page. In this case the author is "Nash Information Services, LLC": [6] (an author isn't always a single person). For a second example, if you want to write about her appearing on NCIS, use this source: [7]. The date is listed at the top, and the author, Patrick Day, is listed at the bottom. You should also list that he works for the Los Angeles Times. StuRat (talk) 04:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You may also be interested in WP:Citing Wikipedia. Dismas|^(talk) 04:47, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

What's the opposite of false precision?

I've seen this enough times to wonder: an article gives a date vaguely ("the late 1800s" or "near the end of the 19th century") in the opening sentence, and precisely ("1887") elsewhere. In Wikipedia, I can suppose that the original writer of the lede didn't know the exact date and no subsequent editor bothered to pin it down, but when I see it in a magazine – where each article was presumably written all at once, usually by one person – I have to infer that it's a deliberate stylistic choice to spend several extra words to avoid precision, or maybe to help people who don't know where 87 falls in the range 00–99 (or 1–100).

(The immediate provocation of this mini-rant was an article about a TV series that ran from 1985 to 1992 according to the infobox, and "mid 1980s to early 1990s" according to the lede.)

Do you do this sort of thing, or know of a style guide that urges it? If so, why? —Tamfang (talk) 06:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't make it intentionally vague unless there was a good reason. For example, there might have been an earlier failed pilot, and a farewell made-for-TV movie, so then the question comes up as whether to include those in the dates of the run or not. StuRat (talk) 06:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The example you give does seem odd, but I think this has to be examined writer by writer and writing by writing. An article or paragraph might in one place say the Federal Reserve system was a product of the Progressive Era to locate its general context in contrast to such New Deal institutions as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, but elsewhere give 1913 as the precise date of its establishment. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If the vaguer period gives significant context, like "the Progressive Era", I might well do it myself. But "the early 1900s" (or for that matter "Tamfang's grandparents' childhood") doesn't add anything. —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know what it is called, but it is a literary device that I have often used in my writings. It is used when a writer wants to summarize something in the lede, and still leave information for the rest of the article. To put all the details in the lede makes it hard to read, and makes the rest difficult to write. It works the same with places. For example, it is better to say "Neil Armstrong was an American astronaut," rather than "Neil Armstrong was an astronaut from Wapakoneta, Ohio."    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 06:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

See also the inverted pyramid style. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

"American" is meaningful, relevant, and more concise than the alternative. Consider in contrast: "Neil Armstrong was an astronaut born in the temperate latitudes." —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Some of our article writers haven't quite cottoned on that the lede "paragraph" is not meant to be an only slightly shortened version of the entirety of the article. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Speaking generally, when writing non-fiction for a non-expert audience, the accumulation of details is often discouraged by editors. In pieces I have written that were meant to be read by non-specialists I've been asked to get rid of all unnecessary proper names and dates, not because they aren't accurate, but because a flood of specific details supposedly makes people think that all details are equally important, and — according to these editors — makes it hard for the average reader to follow the bigger arguments. There's some truth to this, I suppose, though I'm generally not a fan of underestimating the reader. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I can understand omitting unnecessary dates. Do you replace them with vague ones? —Tamfang (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes. For example, if we say that the subject got his Masters from the University of Bullamakanka in 1993, that's all we need to say. Nobody cares that his conferral ceremony was held at 3:00 pm on 17 November 1993 in the Great Hall of the School of Inconsequential Studies; the keynote address was delivered by Dr Mervyn Purvis-Smith BEM, ED, FRNZCP, JP; refreshments were provided by the Ladies Auxiliary of the Anglican Parish of Greater Upper Downer Heights; he trimmed his beard for the first time in 3 years in honour of the occasion; or that he was almost late getting to the ceremony because he had a tyre blowout on the way. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

So you omit nonessentials, making the prose shorter. Might you mention the tyre blowout but instead of saying "he had a tyre blowout" say something like "his vehicle suffered a mechanical lapse of function"? —Tamfang (talk) 08:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Vague can range from "Early March" to "Early 1943" to "In the late 1960s". Depends on the context and what is being claimed. You're looking for the sweet spot of just enough specificity to not be silly ("Sometime after the birth of civilization, John Brown got a bagel."). --Mr.98 (talk) 02:15, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually I find that very poignant, putting our everyday actions into perspective. Definitely not encyclopaedic though! -- Q Chris (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Solve this please

I have moved this question to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

September 20

renting a car

what are the mechanics of renting a car? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.54.90 (talk) 00:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It may vary by nation, but, since you didn't say you wanted to "hire" a car, I will assume you are in the US. Some things you will need:

1) A driver's license. Some refuse to rent to those below 25 years old.

2) A credit card. They typically don't accept cash, or would require a huge cash deposit, before they allow you to drive a car away.

3) You don't actually need car insurance, as they will sell you a temporary policy. But, if you have it, and ask to waive their insurance, you will save money, so bring in your proof of insurance.

4) Be sure to inspect the car carefully before driving off, as any scratch on it may otherwise be billed to you and cost you lots of money.

5) Be sure to refill the gas tank before returning it, or they will charge you an obscene rate for the gasoline.

6) You must return it to where you rented it, or pay a fee for returning it elsewhere. Some will also offer pick-up and drop-off service.

7) They lie about sizes. Whatever size they promise, you will get one size lower. If they promise a full-sized car, you will get a midsize., etc. They seem to be able to do so legally be using different definitions of sizes from everyone else.

8) They don't typically guarantee you any particular model of car. You just get whatever is on the lot that's one size smaller than what they promised.

StuRat (talk) 00:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec) :I'm assuming you're in the vicinity of Toronto. If you've never-ever rented a car, and have a reasonable amount of money, go to the (literal) gold standard, Hertz, and tell them you've never rented before and you want to know what to do. They will probably require that you are at least a certain minimum age, with a driver's license of course, and they will need other personal info to set up the reservation. A credit card would be a plus. Then find a way to the rental place and pick up the car, OR ask if they can provide a shuttle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I have never run into the problems StuRat points out in #7 and #8, not anywhere in Canada, Spain, Australia or New York, Boston, Los Angeles or Chicago. I've had exactly what I ordered or better. The Hertz site says you have to be 18 in Quebec or 20 in the rest of the country, and then they have an "age" charge of $15 a day or $25 a day elsewhere, until you reach the age of 24. They really want a credit card with at least $2000 of "room" on it; you may be able to negotiate something else, but you will need a good hunk of cash. You can reserve on-line, over the phone or in person. Bielle (talk) 01:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

They may be more honest about sizes these days, as I haven't rented one in many years. However, as to them not guaranteeing you a particular model, see this reservation page: [8]. Note that every car model has "or Similar" written by it. This means they can substitute any other vehicle they please, in that class. And, of course, there's no guarantee on the model year, miles, or condition. This seems similar to the original strategy of Priceline.com, where you paid up front for a room in unknown hotel. For some reason, customers are more accepting of blind car rentals than blind hotel reservations. StuRat (talk) 01:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I've more often had the opposite problem. I generally prefer to rent the smallest car available — they use less gas, they're easier to park, and if there should be an accident, I'm on the hook for less money while I try to figure out how to submit a claim. But lots of times I reserve "economy", but there's none available when I get to the lot. They give me a "free upgrade", of course, but what I actually wanted was the smaller car. --Trovatore (talk) 04:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

They will happily tell you what the "similar" classes are if you ask them. I second the experience of everyone else here — I've never had them do anything weird about car models. In fact, I've had them give me free class upgrades when they have extra "better" cars on the lot and things aren't moving very quickly. I think your experience here is out of date. I rent cars two or three times a year. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

StuRat's experience is indeed out of date, by "many years". He told us so. Not sure why he thought this old information would necessarily be relevant to 2012, but there you go. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

No. 6 isn't true for U-Haul, or at least it wasn't some years back. I drove from one end of the country to the other Ontario to Connecticut and dropped it off at my destination. (This is not an endorsement. The U-Haul article mentions serious safety issues.) Clarityfiend (talk) 02:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

There are different pricing schemes for U-Haul based on whether it is long-distance or "in town", if I recall. They aren't really what I'd consider a car rental company though — you can only rent trucks and vans, and they're not usually for casual transportation. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Just giving the OP another option. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Just as a note: many credit cards automatically include some amount of basic car rental insurance, even if you don't have other insurance. Call your credit card company to find out. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Please ensure you are properly ensured (but not necessarily by buying their expensive insurance). A major car rental company (and I wish I could name them but it's probably against the rules) charged me $1400 for a broken tail light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayttom (talk • contribs)

You are actually fairly likely to get a larger vehicle than you requested. With the price of gasoline, people don't want as many full-size cars.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

A few years ago I pre-booked a small to mid sized all wheel drive in the US, aiming for something like a Subaru, because I was heading into snow country. None available when I arrived, so they kindly "upgraded" me to a rear wheel drive V8 Chrysler sedan. It was quite the opposite of what I needed. HiLo48 (talk) 11:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, well, it can work both ways. A couple of years Hertz upgraded me to a Sportage for a fairly lengthy trip I was making. I remember looking at it a bit dubiously in the parking lot. I liked it so much when it came time to get a new car, I bought one.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

StuRat is still partly right. Most rental car companies call a subcompact a "compact." If you look at a company like Hertz they call something like a Chevy Aveo a "compact" when it is classed as a subcompact by the greater automotive world. Some companies go further, calling compacts "intermediates" and some, like Hertz, still further, calling a Chevy Malibu "full size" when it is generally considered mid-sized. It isn't a huge problem as they give clear examples of the type of car you are getting, but it is true that if all you see is "compact" and you know what that usually means you'd be surprised when they put you in a Toyota Yaris. On the other hand, the last time I rented a car it cost a dollar a day more to go from an economy to an intermediate which put me in a fully loaded Chevy Cruze LTZ, a great car which got 39 mpg and had satellite radio. In general it's good to watch out for up selling, which the person who rents you the car will always try, but sometimes it can be worth it (this time it certainly was just in fuel savings). --Daniel 15:26, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Daniel, I knew I didn't imagine it. StuRat (talk) 16:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I regularly rent a car from one of the major companies. It is generally as StuRat says in his first response. The thing I usually have to look out for is the unsuitable vehicle masquerading as an upgrade - like in HiLo48's example. Part of the problem is that I usually arrive towards the end of the day and the depot's fleet has been depleted by other customers and by the cleaning that needs to be done before the car can be rented out again. Quite a few times when I arrive they have run out of clean "economy" or "compact" vehicles, but have plenty of Fiat 500s. This is technically an upgrade but is totally unsuitable for my purposes. Unfortunately, they can be reluctant to then offer me a different replacement vehicle, one with more room in the back seats. I also look out for upselling of enhanced (and expensive) insurance options and unnecessary fuel options, and turn them all down. I think there is also some variation over what is "a day's rental" - a 24 hour period or a number of calendar days. The price for the exact same vehicle can also vary a lot depending on your country of residence. Astronaut (talk) 14:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Number 5 depends on the particular rental contract. The last few times I rented (in the US, from Germany), I had a flat fee contract that included plenty of insurance, additional drivers, all miles, and the first tank of gas (get it full, return empty). I also got cars that I considered smallish for the booked class. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It could end up costing you thousands more than you expect! Two years ago while on vacation, I got a deal through my employer, an extra $15 for the whole week to be upgraded to a Ford Mustang. My wife loved it so much while we were on that vacation that we now have one of our own sitting in the driveway. Dismas|^(talk) 22:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Somali pirates and insider trading liability under US law

Back in February, Somali pirates captured a cargo ship owned by a small NASDAQ listed shipping company. If the pirate leader buys shares of FREE before the public announcement of a hostage release agreement, is he and his associates liable under US securities law?- Globalistcontributor (talk) 04:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Acknowledging we do not do legal advice on these pages, the answer tends towards yes, to the extent that the hostage release agreement is share-price sensitive information. Good luck with jurisdictional issues, though. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I would think any "deals" made with criminals would be subject to being nullified once the perps are incarcerated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Tagishsimon: If possible, do you have a citation to support your answer? I'd like to do followup reading. Globalistcontributor (talk) 07:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Corrections and additions to my CV

I would like to correct a number of errors to my curriculum vitae, also to bring it up to date with a few additions.

How do I do that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.145.252 (talk) 09:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Assuming you wrote the original with word-processor software, and still have an electronic copy, you open the file in the same word-processor, and change it to reflect the current situation. Only you can know best how your career has progressed, and your skills improved, since you last edited your CV. A lot also depends on the format. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're are indeed looking for help with your CV, we have an article Curriculum vitae and there are plenty of onlne sites that can advise you about yours. If you actually mean that you want to make changes to an existing Wikipedia article about you, then you should not be editing it yourself (see WP:COI). There is usually no problem with making uncontroversial changes, such as correcting spelling errors, or dates, but it is strongly recommended that you request any changes you want at the article's talk page rather than editing the article directly, to ensure that changes are encyclopaedic and neutral in tone. Remember that you will need to provide references to a reliable, previously published source to support the new information. - Karenjc 09:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Articles about living people (or dead ones, for that matter) should not be written in curriculum vitae style. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If the problem is that you only have a paper copy, then you have three options:

1) Use white-out, type over the top, and then make copies. Possibly cut pieces up, move them around, and tape it back together. I've done this type of editing before, but it's painful and rarely looks quite right.

2) Retype it onto computer, adding any changes.

3) Scan it onto computer, using optical character recognition software, then correct any scanning errors and update it. If you don't already have a scanner and OCR software, it's probably not worth getting it for a one-time use. I suspect a copy center would have both a scanner and OCR software to do this part for you. StuRat (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Mathias Landau and the Bosphorus Bridge

I have heard that Mathias Landau (the son of the world famous mathematician Edmund Landau) was involved with the building of a bridge across the Bosphorus in Turkey (also known as the Istanbul Strait). Can any user please confirm whether or not this is correct, and if it is, what part did Mathias Landau play in this building. Thank you.Simonschaim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a Matthias Landau who would have been about the right age who wrote a German-language book titled "The Future of Technology": [9]. Edmund's son was named Matthias: (confirmed here: [10], which has some good stuff for the Wikipedia article as well). The two Bosporus Bridges were built by Freeman Fox & Partners, a British Engineering firm. Perhaps Matthias worked for them as an engineer or something. It's a lead. --Jayron32 17:45, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Googling "Mathias Landau" + "Bosphorus Bridge" only brings up this question! Alansplodge (talk) 01:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

September 21

Squeaky shoes

When I was a child, my grandmother would always say, with a half-smile, on hearing shoes squeak "They squeak because they aren't paid for." I am sure she never had a credit card, and would have scorned even the modest credit of a lay-away plan or a Christmas club so I doubt there was an implied "yet". I always assumed she meant the shoes had been stolen, but this doesn't really fit with her personality. Is/was the phrase a part of anyone else's life? Does anyone know where it came from? Bielle (talk) 05:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Buying on credit was very common in past days, but it worked differently. If you lived in a town where everyone knew each other, with like maybe one store in the whole town, it would not be uncommon for patrons to have a line of credit with the store, and would settle up periodically (say, at the end of the month or so). I'm getting a hard time finding hard information, since any combination of the words "credit" and "history" turns up pages of "freecreditscore" spam. But I'm working on reference for how this used to work. --Jayron32 06:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

See http://www.e how.com/about_6468229_consumer-credit-history.html (take the space out of ehow, it trips the spam filter) that explains how store credit worked in the pre-credit card world. It's only got a paragraph or so, but it explains breifly how it worked. Still looking for more. --Jayron32 06:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

And this page and This paper, which describes in some detail how buying on store credit, or buying on installment plans, worked pre-credit-cards. --Jayron32 06:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

And note that there are still some places where the regulars can "run a tab", like bars/pubs. StuRat (talk) 07:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Bielle - Your user page tells me where you've been, but not where you are. Should I guess America? My old dad, born in 1916 in Geelong, Australia used to use that saying too. HiLo48 (talk) 07:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP is the notorious Northern Bielle. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Before credit cards became widely available after the 1960s in the UK, if you wanted to buy large or expensive items, you could use hire purchase which was known as "buying on tick". Many shops used to run store schemes as has been noted above, or savings schemes or Christmas clubs. More often though, people used to buy things and not pay for them at that time; rather a collector would come round once a week and collect the money. I'm particularly thinking here of roundsmen such as bread, milk, groceries or newspapers. In the case of shoes, I would have thought it would be a shop credit payment scheme. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

(EC)::In the UK, it used to be common for shops and pubs to run "a slate" for regular customers. The shop keeper or landlord would keep a writing slate or blackboard under the counter; regular customers would be allowed to buy things on credit and it would be chalked on the slate. When the debt was paid, it would be wiped off and the customer would have "a clean slate". BTW my mum (from Scotland but grew up in southern England) used to say the same thing. There were a number of similar adages - red ears means somebody is talking about you behind your back, or a sudden shiver meant someone was "walking over your grave". I suspect that actually having unpaid-for shoes would have been something to embarrased about, so it was just a way of teasing others. Alansplodge (talk) 09:57, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. It would be interesting to know what social class the OP's grandmother belong to. It was common in good middle-class families that the 'Lady of the house' (wife) never soiled her hands with cash. Therefore, she would have had her husband set up accounts with the proprietors of all the businesses that she frequented, leaving her husband to pleasure of settling them. Posh people in the UK still have such accounts. The proprietor sends out the current invoice on the quarter (i.e., 3 month intervals) . By the time the invoice arrives and gets settled (paid), the shoes would have stopped squeaking. I would imagine grandma’s smile was due to the habit that old folks have, when the want to indicate that they know something that you don't. Another reason that 'household accounts' were very useful, was it enabled the wife to buy her womanly essentials without having to suffer the embarrassment of finding out just how much they cost. I won't explain that any further, as in this day and age of female emancipation it might ruffle a few feather boas. Yet, it is a bit like very posh high class restaurants not showing the prices on the menu.

"Tick" is apparently from "on ticket", says the OED. "Hired" in Anglo-Indian was "ticca, but this seems to be a coincidence! Andrew Gray (talk) 11:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Remembering that a woman of that class and time period walking out of the house improperly dressed or groomed would result in her neighbours gossiping not about her but about her husband - and that gossip would be spread to their husbands and could lead to very real problems for him. The last thing a landowner, financier, or parliamentarian needed was gossip regarding his financial solvency; the old saying was, a man's purse could be estimated by how much of it went to his wife's toilette. --NellieBly (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

There's a hire purchase article.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

A fragment of Roger Miller's mid-1960s song "Kansas City Star": "...I got credit down at the grocery store..." A relic of the past. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting speculation. Thanks to Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM for correctly identifying my location. My grandmother came from a homestead outside of Rainy River, Ontario. While she and her sister, born 1890 and 1888 respectively, did graduate high school, they were never anything but farmers and/or working class. It is possible that their parents held credit accounts at the town's stores, borrowing in spring and repaying after harvest, but that would be about it. Bielle (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that their borrowing habits enter into it. It's just a rather tame and well-known joke at the expense of the person with squeaky shoes. Alansplodge (talk) 20:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be a universal saying, maybe more a superstition than a joke. I've heard it in dutch, google gives results from Norway, Scotland, someone claiming it's an old Hungarian saying... Didn't find it in Current Superstitions Collected from the Oral Tradition of English Speaking Folk,~but there are worse things than squeaking it seems: When a couple are married and are driving off, if old shoes are thrown after them for good luck, and one of the shoes lodges on the coach or carriage, it is a sign that one of the party will die before the year is out. Makes you wonder, were these opposite beliefs, or did people go "As long as I don't hit the roof rack, it's gonna be fine." Ssscienccce (talk) 03:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

For superstitions regarding shoes, you might want to read The White Goddess and listen to Fairies Wear Boots. As for Hungarians, never let one who is a witch leave your home except through the door by which she entered, and never let one leave an article of clothing behind. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Millions Donated; Minimal Value

I loved the idea of Wikipedia when it started, but for years it has turned me off. Wikipedia solicited and received MILLIONS while promoting incorrect info. Editing oversight is sorely lacking, with countless avoidable errata. (Yes, I could edit -- that's the beauty of the Wiki beast, right? -- but I don't even want to engage in that exercise.)

In short: I avoid reading Wiki articles, and dislike the fact that they turn up first in Googles searches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertmehnertroverboies (talk • contribs) 06:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

This is the Wikipedia Reference Desk, not the Complaints Desk. Do you have a question we can provide a reference for? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 06:19, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Interestingly, many scholarly studies have been done and found that Wikipedia is more accurate and reliable than print encyclopedias: this study back in 2005 (Wikipedia's rebelious teenage years) found Wikipedia more accurate, and this article from May 2012 found the same thing. People want Wikipedia to be less accurate because of the open editing model, but study after study have found that not to be true. Now, in some fringe articles that few people read or know about, that may not be true, and of course there is always the problem of vandalism, but in general Wikipedia does better than almost any other reference work, especially in heavily visited pages. --Jayron32 06:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That is interesting. I'm not an academic, so editing WP history articles has been a real eye-opener on how much writers of apparently reliable popular histories have been willing to skew the facts to enhance the line of their argument. Hopefully, if the editors of WP articles are making contentous claims or repeating popular myths, they will sooner or later be edited out or flagged as such. Alansplodge (talk) 09:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

In my experience this happens very quickly in mainstream articles and subjects. In fringe subjects or things like histories of small villages questionable things can remain longer, but I would imagine they will get edited out eventually. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you good folks please not engage in this? The OP made a complaint. About Wikipedia. We have no role here except maybe to redirect them to a more appropriate forum if they can't come up with a question, which they've so far failed to do. Entertain this person, and we may as well kiss goodbye to having any parameters within which to operate, and say welcome to institutionalised anarchy. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 11:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP made an account specifically to make this complaint (while, of course, providing no examples at all). It seems sufficient to tell that we do the best we can, and that if he doesn't like how wikipedia operates he could either work to improve it, or go somewhere else. The fact that wikipedia so often turns up at or near the top of google searches indicates how much use it gets - which merely demonstrates that we have an obligation to try to keep articles as well-referenced and as neutral as we can. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

All true. But consider this: If he'd asked for opinions or started a debate, we'd have told him we don't do that and sent him packing. But a complaint actually produced opinions and a debate from us. Seems the Squeaky Wheel Syndrome is alive and well. There's no evidence he wanted any kind of discussion. Or even a single response. The evidence is that he came here to vent, pure and simple. That deserves the kind of response I gave first. No more. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Aside from the actual, and rhetorical question he asked, there are a couple of questions buried in there. Unless he wants to talk further, those questions will stay buried. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I gave him the opportunity of talking further by way of asking a question of us. He has so far not done so, which is why I believe he just wanted to vent. That should not have attracted a defence of WP, because that is exactly what a debate is. And debates are exactly what we "say" we aren't interested in. Hmmm. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to delete everything from 11:36 and below, within this threat. Everything above 11:36 constituted reasonable and useful information... even if the OP was essentially trolling. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe he's looking for: Wikipedia:Criticisms, Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is not so great or a more appropriate forum. Ssscienccce (talk) 04:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Apple shares

I am probably going to regret asking this question, but here goes. Back in the mid-90s, Apple was not doing so well – indeed, it may even have been on the verge of bankruptcy. But I was a big fan of their desktop computers (I had one of these). I sometimes toyed with the idea of buying shares in the company, but I never did. So if I had bought, say, 1000 shares in Apple on the London Stock Exchange in 1994, how much would I have paid for them, and how much would they be worth today? --Viennese Waltz 14:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Adjusting for stock splits, Apple traded between US$6 and US$10 in 1994. It's now at US$700. So you would have paid between US$6000 and US$10000, and thus made about US$690000 (plus change, including some minor dividends). Inflation eats about 1/3rd of that gain, but it's still a reasonable amount of money... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, great. Thanks very much for that! --Viennese Waltz 15:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

You asked for it.  :) Dismas|^(talk) 16:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

If he had 1000 shares in Apple in 1994, wouldn't he now have 4000 shares? Wouldn't that mean he now has 4000 * US$700 = US$2.8 million? Or am I misunderstanding something about how stock split works? A8875 (talk) 21:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

At least as far as I can tell, the data is corrected for stock splits. At least, the splits are noted here, but there is not discontinuity in the price. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

So which part am I wrong about? The 1000 * 4 = 4000 part? Or the 4000 * US$700 = US$2.8 million part? A8875 (talk) 22:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP would not have had 1000 shares, he would have had 250. The first answer accounts for the stock splits by using a split-adjusted price for the initial value. So, the OP would have started with 250 shares at the original price, and today would have 1000. RudolfRed (talk) 23:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, so it's just different interpretations that's all. By "1000 shares in Apple on the London Stock Exchange in 1994", I took it to mean he brought 1000 shares in 1994. You and Stephan interpreted it as he started with X number of shares in 1994 and currently has 1000 shares, and X turned out to be 250 after calculations. A8875 (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Value of Apple stock

In the spring of 1987 I knew a guy who had about $4000 of stock in Apple Computer. He sold at that time it to buy a car. If he had held on to it, how much would the stock be worth today? Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

According to Wolfram Alpha, the average price over that spring was $9.35 a share. Today it opened at $702.41. That means $4000 of 1987 stock is worth a bit over $300,000. That doesn't take into account any dividends they may have paid, which would just make it higher. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

How would the payment of dividends make the value of the stock any higher? If he were to sell it today, the gross amount that he had made from that stock would be larger but not his stake in the company. Dismas|^(talk) 16:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. I interpreted the question as wondering how much his friend missed out on by selling the stocks then. The idea was to point out that not only could his friend have sold the stock for $300k, but he may have been able to collect a decent amount in dividends along the way. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 17:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I do not believe Apple paid a dividend until 2012.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:00, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. My friend used the money then to buy a Mustang. I guess if he had waited, he could have upgraded his choice of wheels. Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 16:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I hope it was a vintage Mustang. Cuz the 80's Mustangs looked like the sports-car equivalent of a corrugated tin shack. And I should know, because i couldn't afford one, so I had a used Ford EXP instead, which had all the charm of those Mustangs, but shrunk to about 2/3rds the size and with a hamster-wheel powered engine. --Jayron32 17:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

We should also consider stock splits. According to investor.apple.com Apple has split 2-to-1 three times. Depending on whether the shares were sold before or after June 15 1987 they would be now worth $2.4 million or $1.2 million. 88.112.47.131 (talk) 05:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

September 22

Leaving a tip with a credit card revisited

It was suggested here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012_September_9#Leaving_tip_with_credit_card that when paying for a meal with a credit card the tip amount is added only after a receipt is presented to the customer after his card has been run. I ate out tonight with guests. The check was presented before any means of payment was specified. It had lines at the bottom for Amount, which the waitress filled out, Tip, and Total. I asked my guests whether they would normally fill out the tip line before or after the card was charged, and they said filling it out before hand is how one is supposed to do it. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Aaaarrrrggghhhh. I love visiting America, except for one thing. I can never tell when, how and how much to tip. Do Americans realise how confusing it is to foreigners? HiLo48 (talk) 01:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

You're not the only one. This tipping and Canadian visitors has been in the news quite a bit around here recently. See this and this. The solution for some restaurants has been to add a gratuity on to the bills of suspected Canadians since they don't tip the standard amount in general. Dismas|^(talk) 01:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

To add to the confusion, some people calculate tip based on the tax-inclusive amount while others calculate it based on the pre-tax amount. A8875 (talk) 01:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a strong voice in me saying "This is complete balderdash!" I have spent years in business travelling around La belle province and other parts of Canada. I know of no place where a service charge is habitual, except for large groups. We all tip, though more in the 10-20% range, than 15-20%. So, whatever these Canadians are doing in the U.S., that's not the way they behave at home. I am not sure why people are so confused by the matter. If the meal was served in a timely fashion and your order was correct, then 15% is the norm. You give more if you are pleased and less only if there was a problem that affected you enjoyment of your meal and could reasonably be attributed to the waiter's failure. Other problems are brought to the attention of management. A tip in cash is always appropriate. If you are offended by tipping, then don't eat out in countries where tips are expected. You are also fussing about essentially minute amounts of money: on a hundred dollar meal cost, the standard tip would be between $10 and $20. If things are that tight that $10 more or less makes such an upsetting difference, go to a cheaper restaurant. Almost every restaurant posts its menu and its prices, or you can go inside and ask to see a menu. Bielle (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Dare I ask where you are at? Because that's never been in my experience in multiple states in the United States (living in California, Massachusetts, and New York, and visiting so many others). The procedure I have seen, universally, including this very evening, is: 1. they bring you a bill in a black leather folding thingy; 2. you give them a credit card; 3. they take the card, swipe it, and return a bill which has the total you agree to pay, a line for a tip, and a line for a signature; 4. you take your card, write in a tip, calculate the total, and sign it. You are then free to leave the restaurant without any further interaction with the servers.

I suspect that either you are not in the United States, or you're just having a laugh at us. Because this has been the case whether I've been in the West (California, New Mexico, Arizona), the North West (Oregon and Washington), the South (Georgia, DC), the North East (Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island), or the Midwest (Missouri) — just to name a few places I've definitely paid for meals in this fashion, among others. For my entire life. I've never been to Hawaii or Alaska — maybe they do things different there. No one I have ever eaten with has expressed surprise at this arrangement. Either we live in parallel realities, or, well, I won't say you are silly, but I think one of us is being silly, and it isn't me. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

(after ec) Medeis, all I can say is that I have never done it that way, and to the best of my observation, I have never been the guest of someone who did it that way. I am agreeing with Mr. 98. At home (Canada) I add the tip and and the total when I receive the credit-card slip to sign or insert it on the hand-held card-reader if it is brought to my table -or I pay cash for the tip. When travelling I watch others or ask. In the south of Spain, for example, the tip was always in cash because there was no place left for it on the credit-card voucher.

I am just following up as I offered to do when this thread was first posted. I don't see how this could be meant as funny. This was at a diner I ate at outside of NYC, not I place I have eaten at more than a handful of times. I have no problem believing you are presented a slip to sign after the card is run, and maybe you can add the tip then if you want. Of course I tipped in cash. But the original check I got tonight had the exact lines I said, amount, tip and total, which is exactly what I was told did not happen in the last thread. My guests even thought my asking the question was weird. I suppose next time I could take a picture. But in any case, I confirmed my own memory, and am not interested in proving something everyone can check for himself. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)