Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Neith | Resolved | Potymkin (t) | 28 days, 12 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 hours |
Defense of Sihang Warehouse | In Progress | Adachi1939 (t) | 9 days, 14 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 18 hours | Adachi1939 (t) | 3 days, 14 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 05:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Current disputes
Blue Army (Poland)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I'd like to ask for third party assistance on several issues regarding the Blue Army article. In particular the greatly over-expanded Controversies section, which was significantly enlarged to include big chunks of text dedicated to subject matter not directly associated with the Blue Army. Also, I would like to point out that most Wiki article admins control the size of content as not to have one user come-in and dump larger amounts of text in one section, and in the process completely shift the balance of the article, by creating un-due weight issues by simply over expanding one section.
Redundant statements re-emphasize similar points: (the two phrases are only one sentence apart).
- many ethnic Ukrainians and Jews generally see its conduct during the war in a negative light.
- As a result, Jews perceived Haller's Army as particularly harmful to their interests.
Overstating wrongful claims; as those made by historian William W. Hagen. If his claims were soundly disproven, why include them? More importantly why does the paragraph go into such detail about the events of the pogrom when the Blue Army was not even there in the first place? Also, as noted by historian Edward Goldstein, the Blue Army was accuse of several pogroms; that they had nothing to do with, so Hagen's wrongful accusation is nothing unusual. Finally, other editors proposed to remove the text in the past.
Over emphasizing individuals not directly linked to the Blue Army. The entire paragraph about Hugh S. Gibson, and his opinions about the Jews are completely irrelevant to our topic. Also, the American envoy was not sent to Poland to look after Haller's troops, yet his prominence in the text is overblown. Finally, his reporting on the "food riots" is also not directly related to this article, as the events primarily occurred during civilian unrest, and not done by the army.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Tried to contact other editors who contributed in the past to the article.
How do you think we can help?
Please, look over the disputed Controversies section; which contains issues of neutrality, un-due weight, puffery, and a general unencyclopedic tone.
Summary of dispute by Faustian
The article had been stable with a consensus version for a long time until recent disruptions, which are designed to whitewash anti-Jewish crimes committed by this military unit. The editor was caught dishonestly presenting sources twice. One example is here: COD T 3 wrote: " Also, I had a chance to read the "sourced" text on Google Books, and found that nowhere is Gibson called an anti-semite, or that he held a personal hostility towards jews." Diff: [1]. He admits being this IP: [2].
Here was from the source: Ideology, Politics, and Diplomacy in East Central Europe Mieczysław B. Biskupski, Piotr Stefan Wandycz University Rochester Press, 2003 [3] Direct quote from the book: "He [Gibson] stood out for his antisemitism even in an era when genteel disdain for things Jewish pervaded the clublike atmosphere of the foreign service. Upon their arrival in Warsaw, the Yankee diplomats [including,. of course, Gibson] found their prejudices confirmed by an almost physical repugnance towards the city's exotic Orthodox Jewry...to Gibson and his colleagues, the Jews represented antagonists and also a source of sport, and ridicule of Jewish traits, customs, and appearance became the favorite expression of camaderie within the legation." Page 67.
So his claims ought to be viewed with a grain of salt.
A discussion about the article's intro is here: [4].Faustian (talk) 17:59, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Blue Army (Poland) discussion
Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I am a regular volunteer (and the current coordinator here). It appears to me that the listing editor has limited this request to the Controversies section, so we will not be dealing with the introduction. As for the Controversies section, just the length of it seems UNDUE in relationship to the rest of the article. Information should be included in articles in relationship to its importance to the subject of the article. The BA's antisemitism is clearly important, but it is not the most important thing about the BA in comparison to the general information about what the BA was and did and how it played a part in history. That's not to say that it does not need to be included, but it does need to be included proportionately. Fortunately, it also appears to me that the section's length may be cut down by removal of what appears to be inappropriate material. Let's start this discussion with the Gibson material. I've read through the section a couple of times now and for the life of me cannot figure out what the paragraph beginning "The United States sent an envoy" about Gibson has to do with the Blue Army. The only connection between Gibson and the BA would seem to be in the sentence, "General Józef Haller himself issued a proclamation demanding that his soldiers stop cutting off beards of Orthodox Jews, and complained about the violent antisemitism of the Polish-American units to the American envoy Hugh S. Gibson." (Emphasis added.) When you look at the source for that comment here, it does not go on to say that Gibson was involved with the BA or had any authority or responsibility over the BA. Even the idea that it was a "complaint" seems to overstate the source material, which only says at page 276, "General Haller told me that he was greatly annoyed with his troops because they were violently anti-Semitic and that although he had given the strictest orders to keep them in line they were hounding Jews at every opportunity." That same source does mention that Gibson made several negative reports back to Washington about the antisemitic actions of the Polish-American soldiers in the BA and also says that Louis Marshall, Chairman of the Committee of Jewish Delegations at the Paris Peace Conference, criticized Gibson for (among other things) brushing off the antisemitic actions of the BA as "minor persecution". Again, though, I simply cannot see how any of that justifies that paragraph of material about Gibson in this article about the BA, but perhaps I'm not seeing or am misunderstanding something. Faustian can you explain how and why that material should be in this article about the BA? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:57, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- One of the reasons for this section's length is that some pro-BA editors disputed the existence, prevalence or scope of antisemitic violence, resulting in proofs and counter-proofs and a necessity to back up the claims about such violence with numerous sources. If I recall correctly, someone used Gibson as a source trying to exonerate the Blue Army, so in response the fact that Gibson was an antisemite (rendering his exoneration non-objective) was included. I don't oppose removing Gibson completely, or reducing that part to a sentence. The controversy section can also be trimmed by removing or reducing the Hagen paragraph. I felt it would be useful because Hagen was wrong, the info might come up somewhere, and here we have evidence that Hagen made a mistake; perhaps another reductrion to one sentence with proof in a note rather than the article body. Another possible place to trim would be the part about Jews in Haller's Army, which does not seem to be based on a very academic source: [5].Faustian (talk) 03:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think that getting rid of Gibson altogether is a good idea. Also, the Hagen paragraph should be removed completely. The reason for this, is that the BA was accused several times of pogroms they did to commit, so no need to single out this particular claim over others. As for the Edward Goldstein research into Jews serving in the BA; I'm not sure how to approach this issue. His research is not truly academic, but does provide some valid claims; one solution is to maybe separate this paragraph, and make it into a separate sub-section?? Also, as noted above I would like to address the quality of the text itself, simply because of the piecemeal nature of how the section was created; and finally discuss the issues of redundancy, and puffery in the text. --COD T 3 (talk) 05:12, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, I think we're at least in agreement that we can get rid of the references to Gibson and I'm going to implement that change. Let me look at the Hagen paragraph and I'll get back to this discussion later today or tomorrow. Let's put Goldstein on hold for the moment. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Faustian, in this discussion and this edit at Lwów pogrom (1918), you pretty much conceded that the Hagen reference to the Blue Army's involvement at Lwów was a clear error and could be taken out altogether. Have you changed your mind? I see no reason for it to be included at all just to avoid the possibility that it might come up again and to do so could impinge on our policy against editorial comments in mainspace. We can certainly put a note on the talk page about it, of course, for future reference. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm going to take the silence as a "no" and also remove the Hagen material from the paragraph. Feel free to revert if I'm mistaken. Does anyone want to continue on Goldstein? Unless I get two "yesses" by 14:00 UTC on 14 March, I'm going to close this as "Stale/resolved" and the discussion can go back to the talk page and be refiled here later if you stall out again. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'd like to discuss additional neutrality issues found in the text, and request that this thread continue until all the issues are discussed in this forum; as previous tries to resolve any neutrality disputes on the Talk Page, ended up being dismissed by user Faustian, and since the article attracts a relatively minor editor following, no other editors participated or provided significant input in the latest round of discussion. So, the issue remains that some of the phrases are poorly structured, and the message they convey may create bias. In the 4th paragraph in the Controversies section, I do question the legitimacy of this statement:
- I'm going to take the silence as a "no" and also remove the Hagen material from the paragraph. Feel free to revert if I'm mistaken. Does anyone want to continue on Goldstein? Unless I get two "yesses" by 14:00 UTC on 14 March, I'm going to close this as "Stale/resolved" and the discussion can go back to the talk page and be refiled here later if you stall out again. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Faustian, in this discussion and this edit at Lwów pogrom (1918), you pretty much conceded that the Hagen reference to the Blue Army's involvement at Lwów was a clear error and could be taken out altogether. Have you changed your mind? I see no reason for it to be included at all just to avoid the possibility that it might come up again and to do so could impinge on our policy against editorial comments in mainspace. We can certainly put a note on the talk page about it, of course, for future reference. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, I think we're at least in agreement that we can get rid of the references to Gibson and I'm going to implement that change. Let me look at the Hagen paragraph and I'll get back to this discussion later today or tomorrow. Let's put Goldstein on hold for the moment. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think that getting rid of Gibson altogether is a good idea. Also, the Hagen paragraph should be removed completely. The reason for this, is that the BA was accused several times of pogroms they did to commit, so no need to single out this particular claim over others. As for the Edward Goldstein research into Jews serving in the BA; I'm not sure how to approach this issue. His research is not truly academic, but does provide some valid claims; one solution is to maybe separate this paragraph, and make it into a separate sub-section?? Also, as noted above I would like to address the quality of the text itself, simply because of the piecemeal nature of how the section was created; and finally discuss the issues of redundancy, and puffery in the text. --COD T 3 (talk) 05:12, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- In cases when Polish sources couldn't deny the existence of anti-Jewish violence, the authorities alluded that Jews charged too much for food during food shortages, or claimed that the violence was a result of "food riots" rather than pogroms, and blamed "German agents" for inciting the violence.[18]
- The reason I think this text is bias and should be removed, is because it refers to "Food Riots" and "German Agents". I don't think (and, I could be wrong) that this particular example can be blamed on BA. These claims seem more to do with civilian lawlessness, than military abuses. Also, the statement seems to try and discredit the sentence just before it about "willful disinformation", regarding newspaper reports about alleged anti-jewsih violence committed by the BA. But, those claims of false propaganda are legitimate and proven; and to automatically try and play them down with a questionable statement like the one in question seems out of place. To summarize; yes there were anti-Semitic outbursts committed by the troops serving in the BA, but there were also grossly exaggerated and false accounts published in the press, perfect example was the Lviv pogrom. So, I don't think that a statement that highlights those issues should be followed with a sentence that tries to discredit it. Also, as noted earlier the claims about "Food Riots" and "German Agents" appears to be connected with civilian matters not those of the BA. Finally, regarding the Goldstein issue, I would recommend creating a separate sub-section and place the text there, as it this was not a "controversial" issue that some Jews served in the BA, but a noteworthy item. --COD T 3 (talk) 04:09, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'll leave this open for a bit longer (probably until Monday since I don't ordinarily edit much on weekends), but nothing can be achieved here without Faustian's participation. If he doesn't choose to return (and I note that he hasn't edited WP at all in the last couple of days), there's nothing else we can do here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
2014 Ukrainian revolution
![]() | Futile due to lack of participation by involved editors, and potentially premature. See discussion section, below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:33, 14 March 2014 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Khojaly Massacre Memorial in Berlin
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Users LGA and Hablabar without any consensus redirected[15][16] the article about Khojaly Massacre Memorial in Berlin to the article Khojaly Massacre Memorials. The articles about this monument we have in Azerbaijani, German and Russian Wikipedias. As a result a lot of information about this memorial was just deleted. Also the image of this monument is unused and is going to be deleted. I didn't see any argumented and normal reason for redirecting. There were a lot of useful information about this monument based on independent and reliable sources. I think that the article about this memorial in Berlin must be restored. We can have both articles about the list of memorials and about each memorial (from this list) itself.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussion on the talk page: Talk:Khojaly Massacre Memorials
How do you think we can help?
I'd like an outsider to judge matters from the viewpoint of Wikipedia policies and conventions: are separate articles warranted, or not?
Summary of dispute by LGA
Summary of dispute by Hablabar
Khojaly Massacre Memorial in Berlin discussion
Chemtrail conspiracy theory
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Johnvr4 (talk · contribs)
- Second Quantization (talk · contribs)
- Alexbrn (talk · contribs)
- TheWizardOfAhz (talk · contribs)
- Dbrodbeck (talk · contribs)
- Acroterion (talk · contribs)
- TenOfAllTrades (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The piece is a POV entry that I am attempting to make more NPOV and consistent with sources and WP Policy. I am not up to speed on many policies and more experienced editors are removing my edits for apparently illegitimate reasons an reintroducing material that is un-sourced, POV, or abuses sources. I know I'm "right" but this is getting me into trouble that where I don't fully understand or appreciate the nuances of policy or when they should or should not be ignored. Consensus has not been reached in many areas as there are opinions unsupported by sources than there are editors looking at the source. I feel that I am improving this entry and the reversions that introduce POV poorly sourced material by more experienced editors are affecting the quality of Wikipedia. I have made many mistake in this process and I take ownership of those mistakes.
- @Mark Miller, Forgive me if I have opened an incorrect dispute resolution method. I believed this was the appropriate next step in resolving our disagreements. If another resolution method is appropriate, Please direct me to it. Thank you.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
positive: Talk page discussions and messages (entry and user), logic as persuasion, multiple sources, impeccable sources, examples negative: getting in trouble with Policy, over-reacting.
How do you think we can help?
Please decide opinion from sourced fact and entry compliance with WP policy. Decide whether consensus can be reached to introduce ideas not conveyed in sources or to violate policy. Decide whether reversion edits can be made with out legitimate reason based in policy (can edits be reverted because they are not liked or did get prior consensus.
Summary of dispute by Second Quantization
Considering they haven't opened a clear thread on this topic on the talk page, DR is premature, Second Quantization (talk) 21:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Alexbrn
Summary of dispute by TheWizardOfAhz
Summary of dispute by Dbrodbeck
Summary of dispute by Acroterion
DR is premature. Talkpage discussions attempted by Johnvr4 are rambling, oblique references to the Oxford English Dictionary, radar-masking chaff and other tangents, and responses from Johnvr4 to inquiries have been vague at best, and clearly unsuccessful at gaining a consensus. The complainant appears to be trying to push the article into granting credence to a fringe subject using his personal interpretation/synthesis of tangential souces. He has been advised of potential fringe science sanctions. Acroterion (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Mark Miller: There hasn't been a full discussion because I'm damned if I understand where Johnvr4 is going on the talkpage, and he's not responded coherently when questioned. On the article side, he's trying to present a fringe conspiracy theory as fact. Acroterion (talk) 03:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TenOfAllTrades
Agree with Acroterion; this seems premature and unnecessary. A couple of days ago, I asked Johnvr4 to specifically describe the edits he thought should be made to the article, and to identify the specific sources he wished to cite in support of his proposals: [17]. I specifically noted – in both the body and the edit summary of that post – that the purpose of my request was to focus the talk page discussion on article editing (by implication, to reduce the use of the talk page for general chat and bickering about the topic). Johnvr4's immediate and direct response was make no edit proposals, but instead to demand a source supporting a talk page comment I had made back in January.
Opening a full case here would just invite Johnvr4 to (continue to) waste the time of additional editors. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:28, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Chemtrail conspiracy theory discussion
Hello participants and welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I see an extensive discussion that began on Feb 20 with the OP posting a detailed comment that was about their concern of policy and then posted a number of sources and was met with an accusation of using the talk page as a message board. I feel this filing has sufficient discussion. I am not opening the filing. I am just pointing out that discussion does not appear to be an issue. If another volunteer disagrees I will not object to their closing. [Manual signing to avoid early opening-Mark Miller 00:16, 14 March 2014 (UTC)]
- Hi User:Mark Miller, I agree that the talk page discussion has been sufficient to warrant a DRN filing. I also think a moderated discussion would be helpful in this situation. However, today the filing party has been blocked for one week, so on that basis I would recommend that this case be closed allowing the editor to refile, if they so choose, at the end of their block.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:34, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Marian Dawkins
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- DrChrissy (talk · contribs)
- Johnuniq (talk · contribs)
- Drmies (talk · contribs)
- CYl7EPTEMA777 (talk · contribs)
- timelezz (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
I'd like to draw your attention to the sockpuppetry related to a COI/OR/OWN editor DrChrissy and her gang. In summary:
-There were COI/OR case of DrChrissy on the notice boards -DrChrissy admitted she has a gang and ask other to join -CYl7EPTEMA777 identified Johnuniq as a sockpuppets -Many editors had similar negative experience with her, Drmies told other editors that she has a sockpuppet farm -Johnuniq, Drmies and other similar accounts has been follow, harass, defame editors who want to correct the POV/OWN/OR/COI problem of DrChrissy. -The gang have censor illegitimately other editors talk pages: -My edits are repeated blocked by the gang. They also revert my comments that expose their misconducts on noticeboards and other places around the site (such as edit summary). -You can see some of their censorship in the recent history of two users talk pages: CYl7EPTEMA777 and timelezz. You can also find evidence of censorship in recent edit history of 'animal welfare'. They removed normal editing summary. -The comments they censored are considered normal by multiple editors. You can see the discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&oldid=597722520#What_to_do.3F -They blocked indefinitely another major editor who tried to add balance to the articles, user CYl7EPTEMA777. The reason of block was problematic. They said they found CYl7EPTEMA777's edits from IPs (without login). So they block CYl7EPTEMA777 for sockpupetry etc. -The gang is best at confounding black and white. They accuse editors for exactly what they did to others. A transparent/open discussion of the issues on wikipedia website is very difficult. Because, one side of opinions are constantly censored. The gang is in de facto control of many animal related articles. Their activity undermine the neutrality and collaboration of Wikipedia.
Links of evidences: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DESiegel&oldid=598986273
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussed extensively on the talk pages of related articles (such as animal welfare, pain in animals, Marian Dawkins). Tried to put on noticeboards too.
How do you think we can help?
Restore the transparency of discussion. Remove sock-puppets and illegitimate censorship
Summary of dispute by DrChrissy
Summary of dispute by Johnuniq
Summary of dispute by Drmies
A "gang"? That's news to me. This complaint would be too ridiculous to respond to if it didn't involve the continuous defamation of Dr. Chrissy by a POV warrior who, besides being unable to write proper English, can't seem to follow basic guidelines of Wikipedia editing. I'll wait and see if any of the other gang members think this is worthy of spending more time on; when we're done, we'll look at installing a big, fat rangeblock, for instance. Drmies (talk) 04:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- At least four editors had similar negative experience with DrChrissy and her gang. Me, timelezz, CYl7EPTEMA777 and PraetorianFury. See their recent talk pages.
- Drmies don't have enough knowledge of science, but she always meddle her finger into scientific contents. She also like to lie, see my past message on her talk page for her past lies, she told other editors that she has a sockpuppet farm
- 'a big, fat rangeblock'? See, the only thing she can do and want to do when losing an debate is censorship. 124.170.231.48 (talk) 05:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)