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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 64.229.165.154 (talk) at 20:04, 1 July 2015 (→‎Is the PlayStation TV a platform?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Consensus change from "Shin Megami Tensei: Persona" series article to "Persona (series)"

So the recent Persona games (Persona 4 Golden, Persona 4 Arena, Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth, Persona 4: Dancing All Night, Persona 5) have/will all be released outside of Japan without the Shin Megami Tensei moniker, so would be right to move to the article to Persona (series)? It's always simply been Persona in Japan, and now it seems to be the same worldwide. Some discussion of this is already on the talk page there, but was ignored, so I'm posting this here for better visibility. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever the bulk of the reliable sources call it. - X201 (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The game's themselves lack the Shin Megami Tensei title now, and even before this change, some sources just referred to it as the Persona series, if that's what you mean. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Go with what a wide range of sources call it, if there is no clear winner then leave the status quo as the name. Don't give weight to "official" names, go with the sources. - X201 (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sources have gone with just the Persona name long before it was ever official in the West, but I don't see why we are disregarding what the games are actually titled. The Shin Megami Tensei moniker has not been used on Persona games in the West since 2011, so it's not like this is recent. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should wait until we have a confirmed official name in the west for Persona 5, from a website or substantial press release. If it does not have the Shin Megami Tensei moniker attached. A lot of sources I've found refer to them as SMT Persona and Persona in equal measure. I realize that the YouTube trailer from Atlus USA uses Persona 5, but the one from Nintendo for Genei Ibun Roku uses its translated Japanese title, which has been confirmed as a placeholder until its western title is revealed, so I don't think it's a definitive source. In addition, won't moving the page mage the GA nomination invalid, meaning it will need to be done all over again (although that entails relatively minor fuss, I think)? --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Googling "Persona series" gives me plenty of results calling it specifically that, for what it's worth. I honestly still don't really know what Shin Megami Tensei is... ~Mable (chat) 08:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Maplestrip: Shin Megami Tensei is a sub-series of games within the larger Megami Tensei franchise, and is also the title of the first game within that sub-series. Atlus USA tags "Shin Megami Tensei" onto most Megami Tensei games' titles, but that's purely a marketing thing. --IDVtalk 09:10, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This whole thing is about them NOT having done this since 2011 (with the sole exception of the Persona 2 PSP ports) The games I listed above lack the SMT title for the Western releases, but previous titles before 2011 did. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was just responding to Mable's "I honestly still don't really know what Shin Megami Tensei is...", not commenting on what the Persona articles should be called or whatever. As a side note, Atlus USA still does it with non-Persona titles, such as this year's Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2 Record Breaker. --IDVtalk 10:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, didn't noticed they used that for Record Breaker. Makes you wonder why they stopped using it for Persona then. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've generally looked round, and Dissident93 is right. The general popular name is Persona without the SMT moniker. I've done most of the moving, updates, ect. on the Persona articles, but there was some things that I can't do or really can't face alone. I really need help. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I support the move to Persona. Let me know what I can do to help, especially if there's anything you'd need an Admin for (like deleting for moves and whatnot.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sergecross73:, I think it's just the WikiCommons media page now that has the old title, but maybe looking around to check for any link/category corrections I missed would be very welcome. And it's actually looking better as it stands. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, very nice work in rewriting the series article. It looks way better than back when I maintained/monitored it a few years back. Sergecross73 msg me 14:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gamecruft/gameguide question for Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn‎

Does the collapsed table at Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn#Armoury and job system fall under WP:GAMEGUIDE and WP:GAMECRUFT? --The1337gamer (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be. It is also unsourced, so I'd say it should be scrapped. ~Mable (chat) 22:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nintendo World Championships

Can people have a look at Nintendo World Championships (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ? There have been a lot of changes in the last two years, and now instead of a large amount of detail on the 1990 event, there is much less detail on both the 1990 and 2015 events.

Is this the appropriate level of detail? Should the event series article be separate from the individual event articles? A discussion is open on the talk page about separate event articles as well (2015/1990) at talk:Nintendo World Championships

-- 70.51.203.69 (talk) 06:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Missing GameSpot article

I think it goes without saying that GameSpot links can get spotty. There's a link used for the The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay article that I cannot find on their site since its dead and at one point there was a robots.txt issue with it. This isn't the first time this happened, see here, but I'm not entirely sure how this can be resolved. GamerPro64 20:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a press release.[1] Some old references may be lost forever, but new references can be archived through WebCite. Wikipedia did use to benefit from User:ThaddeusB's User:WebCiteBOT, not sure what the plans for getting that going again are. - hahnchen 23:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eh. The Wayback Machine is more my cup of tea over WebCite. But thanks for the archive. GamerPro64 00:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GameFoxy.com?!

I noticed something while I was browsing the Google website. I was browsing to find the GameRankings website, and then I noticed that, instead of www.gamerankings.com, it just leads me to http://rankings.gamefoxy.com. It seems that GameFoxy.com is taking over GameRankings. And there are also GameFoxy.com replicas of Giant Bomb (giantbomb.gamefoxy.com), G4TV (g4tv.gamefoxy.com), GameSpot (gamespot.gamefoxy.com), and GameFAQs (www.gamefoxy.com), and other gaming websites I know of. I don't know if the GameFoxy.com website is safe or not. I'm so curious. --Angeldeb82 (talk) 18:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Its dodgy. It appears to clone existing sites and then, when you click the search bar, it hits you with adverts and unclosable pop-ups. Avoid. - X201 (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've just noticed they're all CBS sites as well. - X201 (talk) 19:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the warning. I'll only go to the GameRankings website when I feel like it. --Angeldeb82 (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Outside canvassing

Editors need to made aware of a co-ordinated effort from the subreddit /r/pcmasterrace to add derogatory information to a variety of console articles. A search for "wikipedia" provides some idea of the problem [2] One prominent example:

Some of the names are familiar. In this thread [3] the creation of several new articles is suggested, with the purpose of "showing the peasants how small their collections really are". These articles were eventually created by editor User:Wikinium but later redirected after they were AfDd. The aforementioned editor is now on the Xbox One talk page attempting to add unflattering information there. [4] I have only made a cursory glance at the subreddit. The problem appears to go much deeper and requires further investigation. — TPX 11:15, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It appears Paid exclusivity was an article incubated via /r/pcmasterrace. They explicitly mention this article in their discussions. It was nominated for deletion in April. The result was redirect to 'console exclusivity'. User Wikinium ignored the result and quietly restored the page. [5] — TPX 11:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted back to the AfD consensus. Sam Walton (talk) 12:02, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Glossing over it, some of these don't seem particularly dangerous. In particular, their goal of adding titles to lists could possible do those lists a lot of good. The lack of NPOV can create a lot of problems, though. This one in particular doesn't look very reassuring: [6] . I guess people will have to keep an eye out on these articles.
About the lists: are they worth having? I'm honestly not entirely sure: their reasoning might be bad, but that doesn't mean that the lists aren't notable. I'm sure that there are even specific sources handling what PlayStation 3 titles are exclusive to the console, for example. It might make more sense to incorporate exclusivity into the lists of games per console, though? ~Mable (chat) 11:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Xbox One

We've been hit. This is absurd along the lines of the old NDT controversy I was in the middle of. Source/Citation Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 07:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, when I saw this section pop up here on WPVG, I assumed it was to blame for all the canvassing and current arguments at the Xbox One article. Sergecross73 msg me 12:43, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator noticeboard

The issue has been raised on Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents — TPX 20:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Backwards compatibility, emulation, and platforms.

So Microsoft recently announced Xbox One backwards compatibility. From what I've read, they are emulating the Xbox 360 hardware layer in software. I noticed some IP editors adding Xbox One to the platforms on Mass Effect (video game) and was wondering if this was correct to do. A number of original Xbox titles that are compatible with Xbox 360 (which required emulation profiles) are not list as Xbox 360 titles. But then I see a lot of Nintendo Virtual Console (software emulation) games with Wii U, 3DS, and Wii listed as platforms. What's the best way to approach this? Is/Should there be a guidelines that covers this? --The1337gamer (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends on whether these games are being "released" for the new console. In the case of the Wii (U) Virtual Console, each game is specifically placed in the digital store and often announced beforehand. Is any of this the case with the XBox One backwards compatibility? In contrast: I could play any GameCube game on my Wii, but few of them have actually been re-released for the Wii. Otherwise, we could list each and every 70's, 80's and 90's game for PC because you are technically able to emulate them all on there (probably all 00's games by now as well). We'd have to go with the sensible option. ~Mable (chat) 12:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Microsoft have mentioned selling 360 titles on Xbox One yet so I'll remove the addition on Mass Effect. A bunch of Xbox Originals games need Xbox 360 added as these titles were available to purchase. --The1337gamer (talk) 12:40, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is a different case between a game simply being playable and commercially available. For example, Tales of Symphonia is not listed a as Wii game simply because the Wii can play GameCube discs.--64.229.165.154 (talk) 22:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that games that are simply emulated (hw or sw) on newer hardware should not be listed as being available for that hardware. If there is actual work to make a new version and it is considered a new product, that's basically a port and should be listed. --MASEM (t) 22:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To add, I do not see a problem if there are lists or categories that track such emulated games when the process is not otherwise automatic (as the case for Xbox 360 on Xbox One, in contrast to Wii discs on the Wii U). --MASEM (t) 22:55, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Commercially released games on services such as the Virtual Console are themselves emulations and these releases are usually included in regards to platforms. To avoid any confusion, did your statement about simple emulation apply to cases like this or was more about free backwards compatibility?--64.229.165.154 (talk) 01:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Steam app

I have created {{Steam app}} to provide standardised links to app pages on Steam. I chose "app" (rather than game) to be more generic, as there are a few things beside games on Steam, and "app" is what Steam call it in the URL. It will optionally pull the Steam app ID from Wikidata property Steam ID (P1733), if no id is supplied as a parameter. I think this type of Wikidata usage might still be classified as "alpha", but it seems to work ok today, and it will use a supplied ID in preference to Wikidata if required for any exceptional/problem cases. It's only an external link, so it should not be the end of the world if there's any short term breakage with it due to Wikidata issues or changes. Longer term, pulling that ID from Wikidata seems to be the correct approach. Example usage:

Long term, the first no-params variant should probably be the preferred usage on main articles about a game; only supplying an id or name where the automatic default does not provide an appropriate result, or if it's being used to create a link to something other than the default case.

--Murph9000 (talk) 12:39, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is this for External links section? Because WP:VG/EL says links to store pages such as Steam are inappropriate. --The1337gamer (talk) 12:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is for use wherever the usage would be acceptable; whether that's citations, external links, or something else. The Steam app ID has been added to Wikidata, this template makes that available for use on Wikipedia. I believe you are wrong in your interpretation of WP:VG/EL, as it says "except … where the link is for an official page of the article's subject.". The content on those pages is provided and controlled by the developer and/or publisher, and not by Valve/Steam (although they obviously do have the ability to edit and/or veto the content), so I believe quite clearly qualifies under WP:ELOFFICIAL. Additionally, there is valuable/useful free topic-specific user-generated content behind those links, in the form of reviews, articles, and discussions; it's not just a store page. There is already large scale use of links to Steam "app" pages,[7] I'm just providing a template which may be useful for such links (without wishing to pass judgement or imply approval of any specific cases).
--Murph9000 (talk) 13:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I lean towards thinking that Steam pages have become a lot more than "store pages" -- for many games, it's the only official page, and often has more content from the dev than some barebones websites have. I'd be in favor of revising WP:VG/EL on this -- making a Steam page appropriate as an EL when there is not another, more detailed "official site". ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 13:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree that if there is no other official site - no developer page, no game page, etc. - for a title, the Steam store page may be acceptable, but that's also presuming the game is not available on other services like GOG or Desura (or at least, as long as that might be around). Otherwise, the Steam link is preferring one store over another, and it doesn't make sense to include the other stores to balance it out. --MASEM (t) 14:15, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

request eyes & help with potential DYK: List of Xbox 360 games compatible with Xbox One

List of Xbox 360 games compatible with Xbox One (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been nominated for DYK, so I'd appreciate other editors giving it a nice once-over and tightening it up & watching for vandalism if it does go on the front page. Thanks! –xenotalk 15:02, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ref Idea for Schafer + games

Normally, I'd just plop this down as a refidea on the relevant article, but this long interview with Tim Schafer touches on most of the games he's worked on. [8]. --MASEM (t) 18:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is awesome, nice work! I'm gonna read this > u < ~Mable (chat) 18:57, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've only skimmed it, but something jumps right out at me which causes me to doubt the WP:NPOV of the interview. There's absolutely no mention of Spacebase (other than once in a list, not at all in the conversation). That fiasco was very recent, and the subject of considerable vitriol and negative press coverage, so an interview about his career which basically completely ignores that strikes me as being quite biased. To me, he doesn't get to sweep that one under the rug so soon after the event. --Murph9000 (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Never heard of USGamer until now, though it being in relation to Eurogamer seems to show some reliability. Also, it can't be helped that Schafer wants to forget the gaffes he makes. Though I know some people sure don't want him to. The article Why do we keep forgiving Double Fine? comes to mind. GamerPro64 20:57, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
USGamer is run by the same overall organization that runs Eurogamer, Gamer Network, and includes veteran reporters like Jaz Rignall and Jeremy Parish. --MASEM (t) 21:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just a quick note, NPOV applies to Wikipedia editors, not articles/interviewers on an outside website. News outlets are free to have an agenda; we aren't. As for the game at hand, the original concept and design for Spacebase was by Chris Remo and the lead programmer on the Early Access/full release version was JP LeBreton. Schafer's only involvement was being the owner of the company that developed it. Definitely not a "Schafer game". Also, I just read that Gamesradar "opinion" piece and it feels like a middle school tumblr rant. I'd never cite it on Wikipedia, given the choice. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, there's no requirement for sources to be NPOV. The reason I mentioned that is because a biased or less than neutral source needs to be used carefully, to avoid importing its biases into WP. The linked article credits him as "Creative Director" for Spacebase. If he's going to take that credit and was head of the relatively small company at the time, then it is very much one of his games in the broader picture. It seems very likely that he was involved in the decision making surrounding stopping development and calling it a finished product, and it would be quite bizarre if the "Creative Director" was not actually quite significantly involved in the key decision making throughout the development. --Murph9000 (talk) 00:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All that ultimately means is that this source doesn't contribute any material related to Spacebase. It's perfectly valid for any of the other games it touches. -- ferret (talk) 00:57, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it means slightly more than that. It completely avoids mentioning a very recent significant negative. What other less obvious negatives might it also be trying to air brush out of history? --Murph9000 (talk) 01:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind: it is a an interview so the questions are directed by the interviewer, not Schafer. Also keep in mind that USGamer has previously covered the resentment of how SB-DF9 was handled [9], so it's not like they are hiding it. You have a 1-2 hr interview with a busy and what easily is one of the top tier game developers - it doesn't make sense to call them out on the negatives directly but let them bring them up themselves, otherwise you lose that interview. --MASEM (t) 01:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Schafer is credited as "Studio Creative Director" on all games that Double Fine puts out, regardless of his actual involvement. I'm not here to get into a huge debate about Tim Schafer, but it sounds like you're the one with the agenda, perceiving malicious revisionism where there probably is none. It's a good informative interview which should be mined as a source. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No agenda. I'm simply very surprised that a highly notable and recent event was entirely omitted. Yes, there is some good content in there, but that glaring omission causes me to question the bias of the interview. It can certainly be used as a source, but it would have been a more valuable source if it did not have the appearance of possible bias or whitewashing. To me, it's a bit like a war article avoiding discussing significant questionable or troubling acts by the winning side. A good interviewer should be able to call them on the notable negatives, then move on after sufficient comment has been made. I'm not looking for Frost/Nixon, just good overall balance. I saw an issue with the interview, I commented on the issue. When an article presents itself as "Tim's history, career – and the ups and downs of game development and crowdfunding.", then completely avoids a recent high profile "down", it causes me to question the article's overall objectivity and quality. --Murph9000 (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Video Games Barnstar

I have worked very hard for the compilation of Featured Characters section in WWE 2K15 article and also improved the article by adding more details. May I be awarder a barnstar by anyone here? User:AkshayAnand

Awards aren't something you ask for... --JDC808 ♫ 20:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very sorry for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AkshayAnand (talk • contribs) 05:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is having a list of featured characters even a good idea? This honestly feels a bit like GAMECRUFT. AdrianGamer (talk) 05:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@AdrianGamer I really don't understand what's GAMECRUFT. I thought creating this section because it is helpful for people who want to know who are all in the game. There are people who buy these games for rosters they could play with. As I own a copy myself, I researched on this list and wrote this list in detail. AkshayAnand (talk) 06:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:GAMECRUFT gives a good, precise list of what gamecruft is. Your particular case falls under point 6, "Lists of gameplay items, weapons, or concepts". The main thing to keep in mind, though, is that not all useful information falls under Wikipedia's domain. I find the best way to avoid writing gamecruft is to keep in mind the average Wikipedia reader, a person who wants to know more about the article subject but has no prior knowledge of or serious interest in the subject.--Martin IIIa (talk) 12:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent world and Metaverses

I made a major edit of Persistent world; feedback welcome. Also, I would like to suggest Metaverse as part of the video game project. Since the concept is a collective world of virtual worlds, and virtual worlds are games, I would assume Metaverse will be used for games. For example, there is already an MMO in Second Life. Cheers! --K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ready?

I had someone recently create and then blank an article at Yandere Simulator. I've got a draft version in my userspace here, but the coverage has been slightly erratic so far so I haven't moved it yet. Do any of you think that it's ready? Some of the sources are brief but could be seen as a slight review of sorts. I haven't incorporated that aspect of the sources yet since I was waffling over that, but I think that this is just at the cusp of either passing or failing criteria. I'd rather get some slight consensus here before moving it to the mainspace before its ready, since I don't want it to go through an AfD, which can sometimes make it more difficult for articles to remain in the mainspace. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:17, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • So far the best I've found review-wise has been this TechRaptor review, but I know that this site's usability as a RS has been debated. There is a slight COI there, but not one that's overwhelmingly major. However it does weaken the source and I'd prefer to have a stronger source than this since the review would be what would remove the question of notability. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:29, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article is severely lacking in encyclopedic material covering the game's development and reception, but it seems to have a decent amount of reliable sources (Destructoid in particular, though I still don't know how reliable Silicon Era is?) to establish notability. I don't see any problems with releasing it on the mainspace, but it definitely has some growing to do, probably once the game is released :) ~Mable (chat) 12:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:VG/S. Siliconera is generally seen as usuable when dealing with more obscure Japanese only type titles (or games that were JP-only at the time of writing it.) So this is the type of situation it is usable for. Sergecross73 msg me 12:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Tokyogirl - it's not a great article, but with dedicated articles being written about it by Siliconera, Anime News Network, and Destructoid staff editors, it would just eke itself past the WP:GNG requirements, and survive a hypothetical AFD. There's no real redirect/merge target either, so you wouldn't have to worry about that either... Sergecross73 msg me 12:42, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to admit that I'm not overly familiar with it so I'm mostly hoping that if I move it to the mainspace that there will be an influx of editors clamoring to edit the page - that's kind of what happened when I made the article for Marble Hornets. My version was pretty... slim at best. It's mostly just that I came across the game in a Let's Play and started throwing stuff together. In any case, I know that there's one new user that'd be at least partially interested in editing it, so I'll go ahead and move it. There's a fan wikia out there, so if I can find someone in charge of that site I might give them a head's up, although I'm always slightly hesitant about doing that for obvious reasons. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 13:02, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eh, it could go either way with having others come in and help. I create a lot of obscure JRPG articles similar to this, and usually I'm the only one who really meaningfully writes and maintains them, unless its something from an established series like Tales (series) or Persona (series). We'll see though. At least I see it as unlikely that it'd ever be deleted. Sergecross73 msg me 13:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hydlide 3

I don't like doing this sort of thing, especially since lately I haven't been as involved in discussions here as I should be (as in, at all), but... A week ago I requested a move at Talk: Hydlide 3. The request has been relisted, presumably due to the lack of discussion. If anyone here could help remedy that situation by adding their thoughts, that would be much appreciated.--Martin IIIa (talk) 12:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yea, right now me and Martin are the only commenters, and since I opposed the move, I feel this is heading towards a "no consensus" close, which is less-than-ideal -- I can see both sides of the argument as valid and not without merit, so I think other opinions are very welcome. I'd rather be proven wrong by consensus than see my position enforced due to lack of discussion! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 00:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

StoryBundle

PSA that the latest vg StoryBundle is out:

  • Boss Fight Books: Bible Adventures by Gabe Durham
  • Designers & Dragons - 1970s, 1980s, 1990s & 2000s by Shannon Appelcline
  • The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers by John Szczepaniak
  • HG 101 Presents: An Unofficial Guide to Castlevania by Kurt Kalata
  • How Video Games Are Made by Russ Pitts
  • SCROLL: #12 - Introducing MSX (Plus #1-11 Bonus!) by Ray Barnholt
  • Put This In Your Brain: The Best of Unwinnable Weekly by Stu Horvath & the Unwinnable Writers

I actually bought it this time, particularly for the Appelcline and Szczepaniak titles (still regret not getting the previous bundles—can't find those PDFs anywhere...) Anyway, it'll be up for the next three weeks. – czar 14:45, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh man, looks like Untold History has been out for a while now. My KS pledge for a digital copy was dropped for reasons I don't quite understand. Szczepaniak posted two updates ([10] [11]) presumably explaining why the digital version was canceled at the time but they're marked For Backers Only so I can't actually read it. At any rate, I'll pick this storybundle up; thanks for the tip! Axem Titanium (talk) 20:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Axem Titanium, I was non-reward backer. The previous update said he couldn't do a digital version due to circumstances beyond his control, so he 100% refunded all digital backers. – czar 20:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'm assuming it had something to do with that crazy vindictive translator mess. Oh well, now I can get the book on the cheap. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Man, I just placed an order for a physical copy of Untold History the other day... Oh well.--IDVtalk 22:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

MUDs notability cleanup

Many of the MUDs listed in {{MUDs}} are really sparse of reliable sourcing and are likely candidates for merge (to a parent article or list), if someone wants to take a look:

– czar 19:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to read through some of this... it's already like looking through a list of my teenage activities online.... -- ferret (talk) 20:06, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By careful. It may attract attention from legitimate experts in the field who will shit on you and maybe with good reason. I spoke to Raph Koster at Wikimania regarding MUD history, and he admits sourcing is still a problem. He said that a lot of the sourcing for MUDs is in academic papers that have never been digitised. - hahnchen 22:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Console generation End-Of-Discussion Source to end all Sources for the various History articles.

IEEE interactive timeline of the console generations. I have not checked how exactly it matches up but it looks very close to what we already have (8 gens to date, generally by date, etc.) --MASEM (t) 22:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Citogenesis, in any event. I also spy me some @Evan-Amos – czar 22:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure we can establish that WP has had a role in naming the console generations, but pretty much, saying on this that we can use that IEEE thing to cement that the IEEE society has come to accept the same terminology. I know we were having some discussions to this point a few years ago, but at this point, I don't think we can ever vere off the Generation approach now. (And yay for great reuse of free images from Evan-Amos.) --MASEM (t) 22:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly, though: no handhelds whatsoever! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very nice, though it's limited to the consoles featured (especially the last few generations only seem to have the big three consoles featured) and won't, of course, help a single bit when the next console generation hits. (Also, gotta love how I didn't even notice they were using Evan Amos photos until it was mentioned here, haha) ~Mable (chat) 09:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tristan Donovan just presented a critique of this (defining video game history by console generation):

    The gap between the computer-focused European and console-focused American gaming histories of the 1980s and early 1990s also highlights another issue I had with the histories I read: console generations. The history of games had somehow become the history of game consoles. It is understandable in some ways. It is a much, much easier story to tell. It’s clean, linear and tidy. But neat and easy a structure as console generations are for a writer, it’s a deeply flawed framework.
    — http://www.kinephanos.ca/2015/rewriting-history/

    – czar 13:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retail resale of used/second-hand games

Is there an existing page on Wikipedia that already overs this topic, and if not, would the topic of second-hand consumerism of games and the microeconomics behind it be a viable topic to cover? How thoroughly discussed is this kind of thing in western (North America/Europe) circles?

Reason being is that I've lately read a few newspaper articles and financial website posts about how videogame retailers work in Japan. Most game retailers there make little or zero profit from selling new games (since essentially ~95% of the retail cost goes to publishers, devs, supply line costs, et cetera), and rely on the second-hand games market in order to remain profitable. I'm kind of intrigued by this topic, but I'm not sure whether it would make sense to make this into an actual article (or even a subsection within an existing broader article).

I've also come across a few primary sources written directly from store owners as well, such as this one, though it probably won't meet WP:V criteria since it's not a third-party independent source. The aforementioned link gives the retailer's perspective and discusses the impact of shitty games (kusoge) that retailers simply can't get rid of, since nobody wants to buy their stock:

タイトル数が多いVITA。けっこうあるかと思いきや、２本という優秀な結果に。PAOはコアユーザーの方にけっこう使っていただいているので、コア向けゲームが多いVITAソフトがかなり回るんですね。中古が回る＝中古の平均仕入価格が下がる、なのでほとんどのゲームで利益が取れるようになってます。ん？その２本って何かって？『うた組み５７５』と『ヴァルハラナイツ３』です。うた組みはちょっと取り過ぎて中古落としをした結果です。いや、個人的には好きなんですよね。発売日に買ったし…！後者はちょっと買取金額を下げるタイミングが遅かったかなと。シリーズはそこそこ中古で回っていたのですが、本作は目が肥えたVITAユーザーにとってしっかりゲーム内容＆評価が把握されていたようで、当初から動きが鈍かったです。ただ全体としては収益をしっかり稼げる機種なので、今しばらくがんばってもらう形になりますね。

Since the PlayStation Vita has a lot of titles, you'd think we'd get a lot of excess stock, but right now there's actually only two used games that we'd be forced to sell at a loss. Reason is, we (PAO) get a lot of 'hardcore' customers, and since the Vita's library appeals to that audience, we move a lot of it. Our only two unprofitable used Vita games are Utagumi 575 and Valhalla Knights 3. I personally liked Utagumi, but we just ended up with too much of it. And we were too late in lowering VK3's price; most gamers found out about the bad reviews very early on, and it just doesn't sell. But as a whole, used vita games sell well and give us a consistent profit.

There's plenty of better sources out there if I search around a bit, but this is the general gist of what the used games market is like in Japan; supply and demand is heavily influenced by the enthusiast demographic in many cases, unless a game specifically targets casual players. --benlisquareT•C•E 10:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen articles that support that opinion in Europe, and I'm pretty sure its the same in North America. Eurogamer covered it about five or six years ago, and you may find it mentioned on MCV and gamesindustry.biz. - X201 (talk) 10:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is it this one or this one, or did they write another different one? --benlisquareT•C•E 10:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The first one. I'm trying to remember any others I've seen. I think we need more articles like this that cover parts of the subject that aren't specifically about games or hardware. - X201 (talk) 10:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Doing site:eurogamer.net and site:ign.com searches generally nets me articles about how various publishers consider the second-hand market "killing the industry". If we do end up writing about videogame economics, it'll probably make sense to have each part separated by region. --benlisquareT•C•E 11:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by your topic of interest, e.g., control-f "WikiProject Video games."--Lucas559 (talk) 22:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed the one flag for this Wikiproject. It was a false positive. User_talk:EranBot/Copyright/rc#Bot_has_a_date_problem Axem Titanium (talk) 14:46, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any Harvest Moon expert here?

I'm not familiar with history of this series. Is the recent move of Harvest Moon (series) to Story of Seasons (series) appropriate? Same goes for the creation of this split article Harvest Moon (Natsume series). --The1337gamer (talk) 23:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it may be too soon since so far only one game has been released under that the Srory of Seaosns name.--64.229.165.154 (talk) 23:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, how has this not been reverted yet? One game compared to 15+ is enough to change an entire article? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty familiar, and yeah, that move would be against COMMONNAME... Sergecross73 msg me 00:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the editor may have a point that these could be separated by series. The longstanding series should obviously remain the primary topic for Harvest Moon, but a separating the other games under a title analoguous to Harvest Moon (Natsume) or something might not be such a bad idea. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 00:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Until more games in this "separate series" come out, it is useless to make such an article. I think we should handle Story of Seasons similar to a new game in the series, though perhaps somewhat separated like a one-off spin-off title would be. We don't even know yet if more games under the title Story of Seasons will be released in the future and I doubt any reliable sources have described it as a "new IP", let alone a "new franchise."
To avoid any confusion does that mean that you are suggesting that the Story of Seasons (series) article be moved back to Harvest Moon (series).--64.229.165.154 (talk) 01:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WebCite and the GameSpot/Giant Bomb conundrum

Currently I am doing the The Last of Us: Left Behind GAN. While checking the archives to the links, one of them by GameSpot directed me to a clip from an Eddie Murphy comedy special (link in question). I pointed this out to Rhain1999, the nominator, and they said out that not only is it effecting the other GameSpot archive links, but also a link to Giant Bomb. This also seems apparent to other archive links for The Last of Us and even one for the Mother series. Bare in mind these are all WebCite links cutting to a YouTube clip for the same Eddie Murphy clip. Seeing how both GameSpot and Giant Bomb are both owned by CBS Interactive, that raises some flags, with Rhain saying that this might be happening because some people don't want these links archived. As to why I'm unsure. This is just something that might be a big problem in archiving those two sites using WebCite. GamerPro64 02:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Disabling Javascript prevents the redirect to the video, with the citation info still there. I doubt it is a CBS thing, but something on WebSite itself where someone had injected bad JS code. Trying to debug more. --MASEM (t) 03:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, well, maybe not. I still can't figure out where the javascript the video is being called but I tried a random webcite from a non-vG article and had no problem. It's not an ad blocking thing either (I checked on a fresh browser profile w/o those options). --MASEM (t) 03:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Should this be mentioned on the GameSpot or Giant Bomb forums or something? GamerPro64 03:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We probably should try to figure out what exactly is injecting the video, which I'm not a skilled JS programmer so I cannot figure that out. I'm going to ask over at WPT to see if anyone can help. --MASEM (t) 03:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, that's not going to help, that's more for WP base issues. --MASEM (t) 03:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just to bring this in, but Wayback Machine has a similar problem for me with those sites, but if I stop it loading before it's completed, the clip doesn't play. I tried a clean-up of my browsers and systems, but it made no difference. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've spotted an additional problem with GamePro articles on Webcite, the article is present, but the java code renders the text as invisible on the screen. - X201 (talk) 08:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've experienced that same problem with IGN. I thought it would clear itself up, but it's persisted over several weeks. 1UP and YouTube do not seem to have that problem. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Query about Prince (Prince of Persia)

I've been doing work on the article above, and currently the only major thing bothering me is the image. I tried to upload something, but it is not transparent, and I don't have the stuff on my computer to make the necessary changes. Can someone help me with that? --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - X201 (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@X201:, many many thanks. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dark Souls series

Hi, I recently created the page Dark Souls (series) for the Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3 games as well as the related Bloodborne and King's Field (series) games. The page was recently patrolled by DangerousJXD, but it is very bare and I could use help from anyone willing to fill in the article. Osh33m (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm under the impression that the term "Souls series" is more commonly used; the name "Dark Souls series" seems to imply that only the DaS line of games is included, excluding games such as DeS. --benlisquareT•C•E 05:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That would be better yeah, just might have to move the Soul (series) article to Soulcalibur (series), to ease confusion. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think confusion would be an issue; there is enough difference between non-plural Soul series (a la Soul Calibur) and plural Souls series (a la Dark Souls) for there to be adequate distinction, plus that's also the purpose of articles having hatnotes such as {{confused}} at the very beginning. --benlisquareT•C•E 05:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. —DangerousJXD (talk) 06:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. It seems that the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME would be "Souls series", since this is the name most commonly used on gaming websites, internet forums, and among the western (non-Japanese) DaS and DeS fanbases. Compare 270,000 hits for "souls series" and 134,000 hits for "dark souls series", not to mention the latter doesn't even have enough data to be represented on Google Trends, while the former does. The only advantage of "Dark Souls (series)" that I can think of would be that it's less confusing given that Soul (series) exists, but as I've mentioned earlier, there's no technical limitations and generally a hatnote can suffice (e.g. GALILEO vs Galileo). --benlisquareT•C•E 06:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, only brought that up as a suggestion, but I still think that article should go under "Soulcaliber series" regardless. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I guess I don't have an argument for changing the name back but I'll explain that I named it Dark Souls in the first place because most of the games in the series was named as such. Anyways, could some editors please assist in filling in the article please? Osh33m (talk) 15:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Corpse Party

Someone might want to take a look at this (permalink). Does this person have a point, or are they just making stuff up? I have only played some of the first game, so I can't know for sure, but I kinda doubt it's true... and considering PEGI only gave the games a 16 rating and didn't even mention sex it seems unlikely. Still, would be nice if someone more knowledgeable than me looked at it.--IDVtalk 09:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can't easily find any sources that go into this, oddly enough. If someone can, feel free to add such information in a reception-section. Right now, the article is lacking information on encyclopedic reception, so obviously, it also lacks information on controversy surrounding the game, if such exists. Whether or not the game is immoral doesn't matter to us: we just have to make clear what reliable sources have said about the game. ~Mable (chat) 09:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've played the original Corpse Party many years ago. The IP editor's just writing a load of meaningless bullshit, ignore and move on. Surely reading his edit history with a string of flamebait edits and talkpage BLP violations would have made it obvious that we have a troll here? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:22, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Welp, didn't even think to check their edit history. Thanks for pointing it out. --IDVtalk 11:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention the obvious fact that XSEED wouldn't touch the series with a 10 foot pole if it was anywhere near as indecent as that.--64.229.165.154 (talk) 04:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Second Life articles

Do we really need so many articles about Second Life? See Template:Second Life where there are a number of poorly sourced or just poorly written articles that seem like they could be consolidated into fewer with less sprawling coverage. Having not played the game or looked at these articles before I'm not sure where to start with this and wondered if anyone with experience could share their opinion. Sam Walton (talk) 10:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only skimming some of the articles, but surprisingly, most of them have decently sized reference lists. Recreation in Second Life being an obvious exception, and depending on whether there are sources for it, it could be proposed for deletion (or whatever the protocol is). Looking at Real estate (Second Life), however, I see that most - if not all - of the sources are either primary or unreliable (blogs). Again, depending on whether sources do or don't exist, it should probably go through a deletion thing. Others, like the Arts in Second Life article, are harder to quickly decide on. It has some blog posts and primary sources as well as more unusual sources of varying reliability...
As you can see, I'm not too sure of how this goes into work, but it does seem some don't make it through our notability guidelines and any notable information should be moved to the Second Life article. ~Mable (chat) 10:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a veritable mess. The few I spot checked had questionable sources and atrocious prose. Next step is to review each article individually for the reliability of its sources. If it's mostly from Linden Lab (primary source) and blogs, I'd redirect/merge it on the spot. If it's more questionable, collect the evidence and either bring it here for a second opinion. We likely can avoid AfD with the whole lot, as redirects are cheap. Short answer is yes, it looks like many of them can be consolidated, but not without discretion. – czar 17:22, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I just went ahead with the recreation article, as it had no reliable sources at all. ~Mable (chat) 17:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of those lists articles to me read like a split between a game guide and a tourism guide/business directory, neither which are appropriate content for WP regardless of how well they can be source. Where we can note real world businesses that have set up in SL, that can be part of a brief list on a broader article on the topic if not at the main SL page. --MASEM (t) 17:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Citoid and video game site references

mw:Citoid appears to be the future of referencing on WP. Short of it is: enter a URL, it uses a Zotero "translator" to scrape the page's metadata, Citoid compiles the citation for insertion. Logical process. Only problem is that most VG sites do not play well with the scraper since no one has written a translator. Wanted to bring this to the project in case someone interested in coding or sources might want to take it up as a project. We would all save a lot of time by using Citoid/Zotero over our current manual methods. (I wrote a Chrome plug-in for Polygon citations—my source of choice—but I'm a novice at this and wouldn't have time to look at it for many weeks.) @X201, PresN, and Thibbs – czar 17:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If we could get appropriate translations for Polygon/TheVerge, Kotaku, Gamasutra, IGN, Eurogamer/USGamer, Game Informer, and Gamespot, that would be like 80% of the basic references I'd use. It would make to have a targetted list of sources we use regularly to avoid an extensive wishlist. --MASEM (t) 17:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how to count at Special:LinkSearch but your list covers most of my needs. I'd add Metacritic and VG247 to the bottom of the wish list. – czar 17:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Those seem to be the most important ones, yes. I might add Nintendo Life to the list, simply because I happen to run into it a lot, as well as Destructoid and Rock, Paper, Shotgun. I kinda doubt I'd ever use the function, though, seeing as how used I am to manually build up citations. I'm sure it will be quite useful for videogame reviews, though, where the same sources always pop up. ~Mable (chat) 18:08, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's also GamesRadar and The Escapist that can work for this. Could this also work out with video defunct websites like allgame or Joystiq? GamerPro64 20:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it can work on any site—the above was a matter of priorities – czar 22:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little busy just at present, but I think it sounds like a great idea. I recognize my own feelings in Maplestrip's comment. I've been a manual ref-builder for a long time and old habits die hard. But as someone a few years ago said, "my feelings about this are constantly evolving". I do see a lot of value to consistently structured data between citations. I've been making an effort to use citation templates when I can and I think some kind of automated citation manager like Zotero is probably the logical next step. Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on this. -Thibbs (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also super busy, so I couldn't touch it for another week (a laptop at my mother-in-law's house is not the best coding environment), but I'm really interested in working on this. I also do manual citations, but I'd be willing to give it a shot to one-click the process. Now, if we could add in automatic archiving... --PresN 19:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you can do one site as a template, I can help figure out others—I have no idea how to debug this type of thing but I know how to stumble around in a template. @Hahnchen mentioned User:WebCiteBOT above. I think that would be the smartest way to handle archiving. – czar 22:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Still issues with Sega articles

I'm only sporadically active on WP at the moment, and I haven't been following things as closely as I had been doing. But after a quick check of my watchlist, it is evident that User:Tripple-ddd is still trying to brute-force in their way, with the exact same disregarding of consensus - and that's not all of the diffs I can find. Can someone please give them a final warning? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They were already warned and blocked last week. Unfortunately, they are still adamant on making huge changes to articles which other editors contest. Given how much edit warring and content disputes are happening on these articles, it might be worth requesting full page protection on some them. --The1337gamer (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've blocked him again, since he immediately returned to the exact things that got him blocked the first time around. Sergecross73 msg me 18:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Troy Baker's credit list

I was reading a Polygon interview with Troy Baker, when this bit jumped out at me (emphasis mine): "[People] start ascribing these roles to us when we're not in it. There's so many things on my IMDb and Wikipedia that I'm like, I never did that." Wait, what? Does anyone think we might want to do some bit-by-bit deep review of what Troy Baker is credited for in his article, make sure everything's true and sourced? I know he may have just been using Wikipedia as an example without being aware of specific inaccuracies, but I can't help but to shake the feeling we might've let some incorrect OR in! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 00:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This would've been great to use for the Newsletter last quarter. But seriously. The article might need reevaluation. Starting with the unsourced material. GamerPro64 01:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is the PlayStation TV a platform?

There is currently a content dispute that I am involved in which spans across multiple articles related to PlayStation Vita games.

Background

The PlayStation TV is a variant of the PlayStation Vita which does not feature input buttons, a portable battery or a display screen; rather, it connects to a television via HDMI so that a player can play TV-compatible PlayStation Vita games on a television using a DualShock 3 or DualShock 4 controller. It is a fully-fledged PlayStation Vita system, complete with ARM processor chip, dedicated RAM, motherboard connectors, game cartridge slot, and other hardware components, and all of the core components are completely identical to the components found within the portable Vita; even the graphics scaler in the PlayStation TV is identical to that of the portable Vita, per this interview with Sony Computer Entertainment Software Development Director Muneki Shimada and Hardware Planning Division Manager Kiyoto Shibuya. It features the exact identical system software as the PlayStation Vita (see PlayStation Vita system software), and all games within its library are marketed, by Sony, by publishers and by retailers, as "PlayStation Vita games". Of course, not all PS Vita games are compatible with the PlayStation TV, since some games rely extensively on the Vita's touchscreen, camera or gyromotion controls, features which are not supported by the variant device. Hence, some games are marketed as "PlayStation TV-compatible PlayStation Vita games".

No third-party reliable source ever refers to the PlayStation TV as a videogame platform, and thus referring to the PS TV as a platform would fail WP:V and WP:OR policies. Based on the rationale provided above, I am of the opinion that the PlayStation TV is NOT a videogame platform, just like how the Super Game Boy is not a videogame platform.

The dispute

Special:Contributions/Kalsolesse has been adding "Playstation TV" as a videogame platform within the VG infobox to a wide multitude of articles about PlayStation Vita games, including but not limited to Persona 4: Dancing All Night, Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4, Killzone: Mercenary, et cetera. In response to an edit warring warning I placed on their user talkpage, they have responded on my talkpage that they intend to "edit the information back in in over 24 hours... If you see fit to revert it again, then I see no other choice but to seek arbitration".

In the spirit of WP:CONSENSUS, I'd like to seek a third opinion, given that I am party to a content dispute, per standard procedure. --benlisquareT•C•E 11:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you. It's not its own platform, its just a variant of the Vita, similar to the Super Game Boy. The PSTV has no exclusive games, and had identical processing hardware. Above all, sources don't refer to it as a separate platform. Sergecross73 msg me 12:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see both sides of this. It seems to me that at the core it's clearly just a variant of the same platform. The pragmatic side of it, however, is that it's potentially helpful to the average reader if the infoboxes actually reflect real game compatibility, i.e. it seems very much reasonable to include clear information somewhere about which games will work on the variant of the platform. One question springs to mind, how has this been handled for past variances in PS platforms, if there's been different subsets of compatibility (e.g. between original PS and much later PSone, and I'm not sure if this issue exists for that case of platform variance)? --Murph9000 (talk) 12:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is where WP:NOTGUIDE comes in. Wikipedia isn't meant as a buyer's guide, that's what dedicated gaming websites are for. There are many articles about multiplat games where Vita is listed alongside many others (such as PS3, PS4, XB360, XBO), and it is simply impractical to have every one of these individual game articles denote the compatibility status of the Vita version. Rather than having this on every single game article where it would be WP:UNDUE (why does Vita get special treatment over the others?), such information can be located in a single location, and in fact, it is: List of PlayStation Vita games. There, the PS TV compatibility of each game is clearly stated. This is as best as we can get without negatively impacting each individual game article in terms of WP:UNDUE and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. --benlisquareT•C•E 12:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree again, for the exact reasons you just mentioned. Sergecross73 msg me 12:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does the same situation exist for any of those other platforms, i.e. games which will only work on variant A and not on variant B? I'm not immediately convinced that WP:NOTGUIDE is relevant, as it makes no mention of "buyer's guide". Having the info clearly available in the list article does satisfy my thought that the information should be included somewhere. The other points are probably reasonable enough. I am, however, still left pondering the question of what harm would it do, if the infobox was allowed to list all platform variants where there is not universal cross-variant compatibility? (i.e. no special treatment for this case, but rather allow infoboxes to include all variant cases where the variant makes a difference.) --Murph9000 (talk) 12:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The closest example would be the aforementioned Super Game Boy, which is not tracked as a separate platform. Basically, we tend to list just the platform it was developed for, not all the platform variations that could also play it. Sergecross73 msg me 13:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, there has never been a precedent that's exactly equivalent. Sega CD and Sega 32X games are not compatible with the Sega Genesis, however third-party reliable sources consider them separate platforms. These are also hardware add-ons rather than hardware variants, just like the Famicom Disk System and 64DD, which again would make it a unrelated issue to the one we have at hand. Xenoblade Chronicles 3D only works on the New Nintendo 3DS and not the vanilla Nintendo 3DS, however as of present that game is literally the only New 3DS game; meanwhile, the PS TV can play upwards of many hundreds of games.

There are no game compatibility issues between the original PlayStation and the PSone, nor between the original PS2 and the PS2 slim. The original PS3 is backwards compatible with PS2 games while the slimmer variants are not, and while the slim PSP versions run games faster due to increased RAM compared to the fat PSP, there are no games which are actually incompatible or unplayable as a result of the negligible hardware difference. Hence, we have a rather unique case on our hands, and I don't think reflecting on other examples would be of much assistance.

In regards to having the information placed conveniently on every game page for readers to view, we can't list the PS TV as a "platform" per WP:V and WP:OR (it's simply not a platform, calling it that would be outright misinformation), which means that we would need a dedicated area for variant device compatibility. However, this issue only affects the Vita platform, and none of the other current platforms, and for a game that is available on PS3, PS4 and a wide variety of others (for example Borderlands 2, which is PS TV compatible), it's simply WP:UNDUE that there are parts dedicated to Vita variant compatibility and irrelevant to the other platforms.

Finally, WP:NOTGUIDE and WP:INDISCRIMINATE are the reasons why we don't have prices within infoboxes for videogames anymore; a long time ago, every single game article contained the launch prices of games for every region, plus system requirements and media formats. I see compatibility notes within these articles as falling within similar territory, a type of "for your information" tidbit that isn't really what an encyclopoedia usually entails. --benlisquareT•C•E 13:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Games released for one console but playable on others (such as GBA games playable on DS, GBC games playable on NGC's Game Boy Player, XB360 games playable on XBONE, NGC games playable on Wii) only have the console they were released for listed as a platform, while games with separate releases for separate platforms (such as Dr. Mario which have had many releases on many platforms) have all their releases' plaforms listed. The only time I would bother to list PSTV is if a game was released specifically for it. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 14:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • tldr, this is a matter of compatibility vs. porting. Feel free to mention its PSTV compatibility in the prose but the infobox only lists platforms that received a port or the original release. Salv covers many other instances of compatibility that don't go in the infobox. – czar 15:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree, the only reason I can see the PSTV being mentioned in the infobox would be if a game was released for it that could not be played on the Vita. something like 32X exclusives or the small handful of DSI games that could not be played on the DS due to needing the system's camera etc.--64.229.165.154 (talk) 20:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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