Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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Chapo Trap House

I have removed three links from this page, with the following reasoning:

• itunes - commercial site, only exists to sell material, the list of episodes is already included in Wikipedia (the list is the same as on our List_of_Chapo_Trap_House_episodes. Fails WP:ELNO #5. Moreover it does not contain information that cannot be included (WP:ELNO #1; actually, it does not contain any further content than a list). (note:this was not removed in my first removal)
• SoundCloud - commercial site, material can be included (again, the list is the same as on List_of_Chapo_Trap_House_episodes; there is no further info on this page). Would only list this if it is the only official site of a subject, otherwise also fails WP:ELNO #4
• the twitter - fails WP:ELNO #11 (see also Wikipedia:External_links/Perennial_websites#Twitter, and WP:ELMINOFFICIAL - the official site is listed. Last number of tweets by the subject are about a sour dough lobster, a tweet linking to the last itunes/soundcloud episode, 2 tweets about events, and one pointing to their official website where content was added.

I am however continuously challenged that all three are pertinent to the page, but I fail to see how a sour dough lobster is pertinent/meaningful, relevant content. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 19:04, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

As Beetstra noted on my talk page, I have the WP:ELBURDEN of justifying the inclusion of each link. So I will do so for each one. There's a subsection below for each policy Beetstra cites, which I've hidden to make more manageable.

The subject of the article is a podcast. Chapo Trap House, like most other podcasts, has episodes available to stream for free. (Not that it particularly makes a difference, but Chapo's audio doesn't even include commercial advertising, which many others do.) At some other articles about podcasts, for example Serial (podcast), the link to the official homepage suffices to direct readers to where they can stream the audio; in fact, you can stream Serial directly from their site, so there isn't even a need for them to direct readers elsewhere, they just directly provide the audio onsite.

In the case of Chapo, it doesn't suffice to link to the homepage. Currently, the official Chapo Trap House homepage only minimal information. It lists the dates of their current tour, and that's it. The design is completely stripped down, with no links to their audio or Twitter page. A link to the podcast is perfectly germane for an article about a podcast, and in this case, the homepage doesn't get the job done at all. This is my broad justification for linking to the podcast, which I will delve into with more specificity below.

WP:Twitter-EL

Beetstra cites WP:Twitter-EL, which states:

"[Twitter in external links:] Generally no. Exceptions are made for official links when the subject of the article has no other Web presence; or is known for their Twitter activity."

Whatever Beetstra personally thinks about their Twitter feed, Chapo Trap House is known for its Twitter activity. The hosts of Chapo Trap House became famous through Twitter—that is, they were not famous outside of Twitter or independently of Twitter. They met each other through Twitter and are well-known on the platform (within the Leftist/politics/"Weird Twitter" circles that they occupy.) They aren't just famous people who happen to have Twitter accounts, like Katy Perry or Stephen King; their Twitter presence was critical to the existence of the podcast itself. The podcast often refers to tweets, e.g. bad "hot takes" by pundits. Point being: Chapo is, in the parlance, "Extremely Online," and the podcast is strongly associated with Twitter.

WP:ELMINOFFICIAL

Beetstra has argued that WP:ELMINOFFICIAL justifies the removal of these links, hanging his hat on the opening sentence: "Normally, only one official link is included." This is a perfectly reasonable default policy position! But it's not the full story. There are circumstances which can justify something other than the default starting position, which is not an absolute. The policy goes on:

"If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. ... More than one official link should be provided only when the additional links provide the reader with significant unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites. For example, if the main page of the official website for an author contains a link to the author's blog and Twitter feed, then it is not appropriate to provide links to all three. ... In other situations, it may sometimes be appropriate to provide more than one link, such as when a business has one website for the corporate headquarters and another for consumer information. Choose the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information."

These excerpts essentially say that specific circumstances can justify the inclusion of multiple links. To list the factors that can justify inclusion of more than one official link:

• The webpages should "provide the reader with significant unique content"
• The webpages "are not prominently linked from other official websites". Note that the policy explicitly provides that a Twitter account is an example of an appropriate link to include when it is not linked from an official homepage.
• The additional webpages serve distinct contextual functions (not stated outright, but gleaned from the analogy "when a business has one website for the corporate headquarters and another for consumer information.")
• Overall, "the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information."

I've addressed all of these factors above. There is one I want to address in more detail, which is that the minimum number of links are being included. Why two links to the podcast? Because the podcast is only available via two platforms: iTunes and SoundCloud. How is this "the minimum number"? Because to choose one over the other is an WP:POV preference for one platform over the other. In Beetstra's first edit to the page, he only removed the SoundCloud link, leaving the iTunes link up. I objected on the basis that it shows an unjustifiable preference for one platform over the other, and presupposes that any reader trying to access the podcast are able to use the iTunes platform. He then removed both, but again, linking to a podcast from a podcast article is germane. I would get it if there were 10 links to various platforms that the podcast was hosted on, that would be excessive and in that situation there would probably be a sensible way to minimize the links. But there are two, which is one more than one; one would be the minimum, but it would also be a POV problem, so the minimum is two. I don't see this as an unpardonable violation of policy.

WP:ELNO #5

Beetstra argues that links to the podcast at iTunes and SoundCloud fail WP:ELNO #5, which states:

Individual web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising. For example, the mobile phone article should not link to web pages that mostly promote or advertise cell-phone products or services.

This policy doesn't apply here. The pages I've linked to do not sell products or services, and in fact don't sell anything, they only link to the podcast's freely streamable audio (which is, after all, the direct subject of the article). These webpages don't contain any advertising, let alone an objectionable amount of advertising. They don't promote, advertise, or sell content; they are the content. This policy would apply if a user tried to include a link to Chapo's merchandise, like linking to a webpage that sells a Chapo t-shirt or a link to preorder the forthcoming book. I would absolutely remove any links like that, because those would fail WP:ELNO #5.

WP:ELNO #1

Beetstra argues, via WP:ELNO #1, that the links to the podcast are redundant to the list of episodes on Wikipedia. From WP:ELNO #1:

"In other words, the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article."

There is no repetition between the podcast links and our list. A link to the podcast itself is not a list of episodes of the podcast. It is the podcast. The audio of Chapo Trap House is not freely licensed, so Wikipedia will never be perfectly redundant to the podcast itself. Again, a link to a podcast makes sense from the article about the same.

WP:ELNO #4

Beetstra cites WP:ELNO #4, directed in particular at the SoundCloud link for a reason I can't discern:

"[G]enerally avoid providing external links to ... [l]inks mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions. See Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming."

None of these links are spam, or a petition, or anything else mentioned at WP:LINKSPAM, which ELNO #4 refers to. I don't even see how this one even arguably applies.

WP:ELNO #11

Finally, for the Twitter, Beetstra cites WP:ELNO #11:

Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites (negative ones included), except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities who are individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)

Again, this doesn't apply. I would not link to a Twitter page called @ChapoTrapHouseFans. ELNO #11 is about amateur secondary resources like fan pages about the article subject, not an article subject's primary or official webpages.

I know this is a lot, but I am doing the work of unpacking and actually tethering my argument to the language of policies, rather than spraying WP:SOMETHING links and telling other users to just read the rules. —BLZ · talk 21:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

One other thing: I've looked through Beetstra's recent contributions and he has literally hundreds of edits just today with the same description: "remove excessive social networking, fansites, blogs and indirect sites per WP:ELMINOFFICIAL/WP:NOT#REPOSITORY/WP:ELNO #10/11/13 (and EL related cleanup) (via WP:JWB)". Most of these edits are quite good; for example, at Lead (band), Beetstra removed a ton of unnecessary links, including multiple links to record labels, multiple blogs for tangential things like a cafe owned by a producer of the band (!!), and Twitter and Instagram links for each member. It looks like Beetstra is on a mission to systematically remove excess and junk links, probably by combing through transclusions of Template:Twitter and/or Template:Instagram. In all sincerity, I tip my hat to that. Beetstra, I don't doubt that you mean well, and the work you're doing to curb the level of crap in external links is really important, needed, and often thankless. That said, I also worry that you're using a hammer so everything seems like a nail. Blasting through a ton of pages can be the only way to clear out excess links at scale, but it's also very possible to miss important context. I'm not linking to every host's Twitter page in the External links, just their official one, and only because the article subject is notably associated with Twitter; I'm not linking to any advertising material; I'm linking to the minimum number of access points for the podcast itself. Again, I'm sure you're overwhelmingly doing good work in this area. In the spirit of WP:GOODFAITH and close reading of the policies you linked, I assure you that I intend to act within the bounds of these policies. —BLZ · talk 00:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Brandt Luke Zorn: You state 'Chapo Trap House is known for its Twitter activity. The hosts of Chapo Trap House became famous through Twitter' - a lot of people are known for their twitter activity, but the podcast is not famous because of the twitter. You say that the hosts are known because of the twitter, that is something on the hosts of the podcast, not on the podcast itself. Moreover, I used the last 5 tweets by the twitter account as example - none give any extra information, the exact problem that WP:EL shows. If there is importance in the twitter, then it is discussed in the article (it is), if the twitter gives rather consistently information then it is an external link twitter. The argument is being held over Donald Trump .. and I am here concerned whether the Twitter, or social media in general, is of so much importance for the subject, and the tweets certainly do not raise to the level of Donald Trump's individual tweets.

Your argument for linking to SoundCloud and iTunes is the same as linking to the YouTube channel of a subject - so we can hear what they do. That is not Wikipedia's purpose. We link to more information that cannot be included, we do not link to make it easier for people to be ablo to listen to the individual podcasts. Moreover, the podcasts are already in their own article, and as is not uncommon in lists, the links to the individual podcasts could be included in such lists. That article is about the list of podcasts, not about the podcast itself, and the soundcloud and itunes are there more direct than here. I now see that the Patreon link is of similar nature.

You have omitted WP:ELNO #10, which I also cite regarding the Twitter. #11 is here not that applicable.

Thank you for your remarks on the further removals. That is something I have been doing for a long, long time now (and I am certainly not the only one, though maybe the one who is more actively searching for them. I have removed thousands and thousands of them, with very little resistance. Despite what people think, social networking sites and commercial sites are of very little utility to understanding the topic, and are very often indirect. I have brought discussions consistently here (and people have been bringing my removals here, and to higher level noticeboards) with the consistent conclusion that these links do not belong. Twitters, Facebooks, SoundClouds, MySpaces do not provide information that is expanding the article. Often even the official websites do fail the spirit of WP:EL/WP:NOT, we only include them to know what a subject is saying about themselves. We are not running a service to find everything applicable to the subject (we are not an internet directory, nor a replacement for google), and we are not running a service to find material because the subject is not doing that themselves. To go back to the subject at hand: there are now 5 links controlled by the subject. I am sorry, that their official homepage is insufficient is plainly not our problem. What needs to be included is in the article, the other 4 links (and actually, all 5 links - but we list only one) are not pertinent to this subject. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 04:02, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm feeling a little annoyed with what's beginning to feel like shadowboxing. You say "You have omitted WP:ELNO #10, which I also cite regarding the Twitter. #11 is here not that applicable." OK, fine... So why did you cite #11 above when you opened this conversation, but not #10? I can only respond meaningfully to the policies that are actually cited, and you've cited a different policy or slew of policies at nearly every turn (the first edit, the revert, my talk page, this discussion, your response in this discussion), reviving an argument based on any given policy as convenient.

I see "external links" sections as a general way to access an article subject's primary, non-incidental online channels. If the subject matter of an article is an online personality—NOT someone or something who is independently famous who incidentally has social media, but a person, group, piece of media, or something that is legitimately hosted online, and known THROUGH its online presence—I expect to see those in external links. If I look at Kony 2012, I expect the link to the film there. If I go to PewDiePie, I expect to see a link to his YouTube—and hey! his Twitter is useful there, too, because he is extremely popular on there too. Heck, I think some celebrities reach a level where they have independent significance on Twitter such that it could be linked—I would lump Chrissy Teigen in this category, if someone took the time to write about her Twitter fame on her article, which could certainly be done. I would absolutely make the case that Donald Trump's Twitter account should be in his external links—there is no one more famous for their Twitter usage in the world! He makes official proclamations of the United States government, as the president, through his "personal" social media account, but that's neither here nor there. I agree with you that social media is often trivial or incidental, but I think you also make the mistake of underestimating the utility of social media in a very social media-centric social environment. Either way, I agree it should not be excessive. This is not excessive. They are strongly associated with Twitter, and you haven't rebutted or meaningfully responded to that, just retreated into a more-general argument about your views about social media which are neither here nor there.

OK, so this is my view about how external links should generally be, and how this particular section should be. But: I rooted my viewpoint in the language of the policies, which you have not done. You just conclusively cite to the WP:ELNO rules by number, as if that makes the argument. I'm reading the language of the guidelines, applied these guidelines (not even rules!) as rules to a fact-specific context, and arriving at conclusions based on reason AND the language of the policies. What's frustrating is the way you conclusively cite the guidelines as rules, derive one key idea out of them (no social media!!), and apply it absolutely without respect to context or subject matter—even though the rules say that they are only what "normally" should be applied.

You say: "Your argument for linking to SoundCloud and iTunes is the same as linking to the YouTube channel of a subject - so we can hear what they do." No, not so "we can hear what they do." Because it is a link to what the page is about.

You say: "I am sorry, that their official homepage is insufficient is plainly not our problem." But in fact it is relevant, very relevant. The policies themselves say that a factor to consider is whether a single official homepage includes links to other resources. I've discussed this above. It is a completely relevant factor! It's in the policies!! Yet you wave it away. Why? Because despite your condescending recommendation for me to "re-read" the rules, you haven't read them very closely, at least not in terms of what balancing or mitigating factors should be considered. How can you say it's "plainly not our problem"? Because at that moment, you want to use the "insufficiency" of their homepage against them, when in fact that's literally a factor when considering when it's appropriate to include additional links.

This is what I mean by shadowboxing: you're not actually using or applying the text of the rules, you just point to them as absolutes, and then slip away to another when one fails you. In your hands the policies transform into absolute, simplified rules, which they are not. They become the "no social media" rule, the "no promotional links" rule. This is not how they work!

You're now essentially taking the position that all 5 links could be omitted, because there is some case you could make by gesturing vaguely in the direction of some of those rules to remove it. Fine. Abolish external links sections altogether then. We'll completely ignore the fact that none of these policies absolutely forbid the inclusion of this content, we'll forget that they actually include factors to consider when it can be appropriate to include any of the types of webpages it cautions against. You don't think the links are useful. Great. But that's your personal view and it has nothing to do with policy, as far as I'm concerned, and you haven't shown me otherwise. —BLZ · talk 04:44, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Regarding the #10, it was cited in my initial removal, and of relevance to the twitter. My edit summary is a bit generic there, I cleanup a lot of related material, basically per WP:EL

I see where our disagreement comes from, which is in the interpretation of the guidelines / policies. We may now stray to a discussion which is more about what the community interpretation of that guideline is, then about the specific case. No, my reading is not singular, my reading starts from the very start. The ELNO rules exclude, within reason/IAR, what should not be linked, and the rest of the guideline explains why. We only link to material that is relevant, we do not duplicate what is already in the article, we do not duplicate information that is already in other external links. We minimize external links, and do that rather strictly (and that is per policy). We do not link to everything a page is about (it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic, we link to material that helps us in a further understanding of the subject. Official websites often fail that (they often fail multiple instances of what we should not link to in the first place), therefore we list only one (and not 5).

Yes, the guideline uses the factor whether the official homepage is linking to that material, but that is after that we link to only one official homepage of the subject with very limited exceptions. This argument is being brought up over and over in previous discussions, and no, that argument is not 'because the official website is not linking to the social media, I can include all of them'. I will make it more complex. We have, per guideline, the choice of one official website, we can use the twitter as the official website. That link to the official website (the .com), and to the soundcloud and the itunes, and it links to their newsletter. Per your admission above, the twitter seems to be important, and seeing the content, it indeed seems to be more important than their .com.

Brandt Luke Zorn, no, I am not abandoning all external links, and that is not a personal view. I believe that in the many discussions about this, and related material at WT:EL it is shown that that is our community consensus.

I'll leave the floor to others, that is why I brought it to a wider forum in the first place. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:04, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

mydramalist

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• mydramalist.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

There's currently over 300 external links to website "mydramalist" on wikipedia, majority of the links added by user CherryPie94. The website "mydramalist" has all user generated content and doesn't have any unique information. Last year, CherryPie94 also created a wikipedia page for MyDramaList (but that got deleted) and several external linking templates for use on wikipedia like Template:MyDramaList title. CherryPie94 further categorized these external links by Category:MyDramaList title ID same as Wikidata / Category:MyDramaList title ID not in Wikidata / Category:MyDramaList name ID not in Wikidata. As a completely user-generated content website and not offering any unique resources, I don't believe "mydramalist" qualifies for use as an external source. I noticed this website because every new Korean drama series page I read on wikipedia now has an external link to "mydramalist." Nicemagnet (talk) 05:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

As I said before, the template leads to a website that does it fact provide unique resources such as, variety show appearances not included in Wiki due to excessive info/credits, trailers that can't be on wiki due to copyrights, content ratings for for TV shows and movies, airing dates and summaries for episodes. (WP:ELNO: What can normally be linked: Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons). Moreover, it is also different from the other mosty used template which is HanCinema because the template I made provide info for other countries (China and Japan for example), not just Korean content. In addition, Hancinema doesn't provide info about variety shows.

As for the user-genrated aspect, it is not against WP:ELNO. You know that almost the entire Asian IMDb section is user-generated (I edited mostly all of the IMDb Misty page since I'm a fan of the show) but it is still linked to Wiki. So how is IMDb allowed to be linked if it is user-generated content? Moreover, isn't Wiki a user-generated website. I have replied in length here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture#spamlinks to mydramalist from same user CherryPie94. However, if it is against rules please delete it. Also, can there be a discussion about Hancinema, Daum, and Naver templates too? Are they acceptable or not? I made the daum and naver one to help users that were adding the link manually, however, now I noticed that they are in Korean and don't usually offer any info that are different from HanCinema and MyDramaList. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:35, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: The 'how is IMDb allowed to be linked ..' is a WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS type of defense. There are extensive discussions about IMDb and general thoughts about that.

I can see that the site expands beyond what can be included in Wikipedia (though some info could be incorporated, or more primary linked (trailers will often be on/linked from official websites, or uploaded to YouTube by official channels)). Where I have concerns whether all of these should be in the external links. WP:NOT#LINKFARM is one of the concerns - we do not have to link to everything that is related and provides information. If (as an example) MyDramaList covers more information than IMDb then MyDramaList may be appropriate, whereas the IMDb becomes excessive (noting however, point is that IMDb is way 'more established'). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@Beetstra: Thanks for informing me about WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I never read that page, so thanks. I talked about IMDb just to prove that it is user-generated too and nowhere in WP:ELNO does it state that such websites can't be added. Truth is, I sometimes think that there are a lot of external links. Official website (already in the infobox), production company website (already in the infobox), IMDb, HanCinema, Daum, Naver, and MyDramaList. Maybe people in Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture or here should discuss which is more appropriate and what is excessive website to add in the External links section. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 09:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: I noticed that as well - and I don't think that the production company website should be there, that one is indirect to the subject (and often already wikilinked). The rest seems sometimes a bit of a linkfarm indeed. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: The reasons cited for linking to "mydramalist" are extremely weak and seem to be listed just to have a reason.

1. "unique resources such as, variety show appearances" <-- How is this relevant to the majority of your links that are included on hundreds of drama series and movie pages? The times that it might be applicable, links to official sources like the official variety show website or talent agency profile page of performers are appropriate, rather than user-generated sourced content that is usually copy and pasted from primary sources. Your reasoning is equivalent to saying "Bob's Cricket List" website keeps track of cricket games, therefore "Bob's Cricket List" external links can be added on all Major League Baseball articles.
2. "trailers that can't be on wiki due to copyrights" <-- links to official movie/drama series websites that have the trailers or licensed third party websites like official channels on YouTube should be linked, rather than an unlicensed third party website. Correct me if I'm wrong if mydramalist is licensed.
3. "content ratings for for TV shows and movies" <--- this is a cringe worthy weak argument. Seriously? Because website A has javascript code to allow random people to click a rating number, that website should be cited as an authority on the subject?
4. "airing dates" <-- this is not a unique resource beyond what the wikipedia article would contain if it became a featured article.
5. "summaries for episodes" <-- Exactly how does this apply to all the external links from wikipedia movie, actor and singer pages which do not have episodes? For drama series pages this would be more like fancruft and not pertinent to the wikipedia article.

In aggregate, linking hundreds of wikipedia pages to mydramalist in various niche topics like drama series/movies/actors/singers, creating the wikipedia page to "MyDramaList," creating external linking templates for "mydramalist," and being questioned last year for having "conflicts of interest" with "mydramalist" really shows that CherryPie94 has a strong bias towards "mydramalist." Even if you ignore all of the potential bias, "mydramalist" simply does not qualify to link on drama series, movies, actors or singer pages. Especially not because it lists "variety show appearances," "has trailers," "has user ratings," "lists air dates" or "summaries for episodes (movies, actors, singers do not have episodes)." "Mydramalist" allows anyone to go to a page and hit "edit," so it is like an open wiki. Lastly, I can't stand going to read about the newest Korean drama series pages on Wikipedia and seeing the "MyDramaList" link at the bottom of every freakin article. I'm now seeing it on Wikipedia Korean/Japanese movie pages and Wikipedia Kpop pages. Nicemagnet (talk) 11:22, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: You update to the page made what I was writing disappear, it's okay. You gave good counter-argument. However, for the variety show appearances, you wouldn't be adding all variety show websites on an actors page to show that they made an appearance there. Moreover, usually, the agency website would not have such info, as in the case Jung Yong-hwa agency website, that is where the MyDramaList template is appropriate. For drama, movies and variety shows, the website contains the profiles for actors and entertainers that do not have pages on Wiki due to them not being notable enough. Also, it could work for non-Korean countries that usually don't have databases to provide further info.

As I said before, and you decide to ignore and keep bring up conflict of interest which I proved was false, I made the template after seeing users adding the links manually (years before I made the template), such as in this case Line Romance and SOTUS: The Series. If I'm biased toward the website I would not have adding other template such as Naver and Daum. However, I have no issue with it being removed if it goes against the rules or if it is redundant. Personally, I don't know why you are very angry and it still gives me a big suspicion that you are one of AsianWiki sock puppets that were determined on removing mydramalist links from pages and were banned by admins. Link to the other IP: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/24.252.92.90/Archive. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 12:03, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: You are talking about actors, while I am talking about drama series and movies (read carefully above "How is this relevant to the majority of your links that are included on hundreds of drama series and movie pages?") To elaborate, your category Category:MyDramaList title ID same as Wikidata shows 201 external links from Wikipedia to Mydramalist that has matching titles. Out of those 201 external links, none of the external links are about variety shows. Out of those 201 external links, none of the drama series or movie titles have any direct relationship to variety shows. Out of the off chance, that a particular drama series or movie is related to a variety show, then in that instance I stated a link to the official variety show is more appropriate. Not blanket linking to mydramalist from every wikipedia movie and drama series page because it has actor pages with variety show appearances. The same applies to "having trailers," "having user ratings," "airing dates" or "episode summaries." Also, as I told you on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture thread, I am not affiliated with any group, but rather seriously annoyed about seeing external links to mydramalist on every Korean drama series, movie, actor, singer page I visit. Because of seeing so many links, I looked into the history tab on popular drama series/movie pages and noticed you were active in monitoring the external links. I then looked into your archived talk page to try to understand why there were so many links to mydramalist and found out that you authored the wikipedia MyDramaList page, created the external link templates for mydramalist and were questioned about having conflicts of interests with mydramalist. All of this under an earlier username. After seeing that I decided to post it first on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture and now here. Nicemagnet (talk) 13:12, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: Also, I just noticed you made the mydramalist templates around April, 2017 and then were asked about having conflict of interests with mydramalist around that time as well as getting a speedy deletion for the MyDramaList Wikipedia page you created. After a username change, you then made templates for Korean language website Daum around September, 2017 and Korean language portal Naver February, 2018. Good way to refute any future conflict of interest questions. Nicemagnet (talk) 13:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: Again, please read what I wrote "For drama, movies and variety shows, the website contains the profiles for actors and entertainers that do not have pages on Wiki due to them not being notable enough. Also, it could work for non-Korean countries that usually don't have databases to provide further info." Moreover, as for "active in monitoring the external links", I occasionally add them when I see more info on the other website, however, I'm by no means monitoring them except if they show up on my watch list. Moreover, it is not solely me that is editing and improving external links, I could give you examples of pages that were by other users and they added the link. MyDramaList page was first approved because of the it is notable in term of alexa rating of the website, however, it was later deleted due to the lack of secondary source, which I did not object to.

I'm sorry, but I'm still suspicious since it seems weird that the day the IPs were banned, your account showed up and was angry and blame me specifically for making the template without any prior edits to the Asian articles on Wikipedia.

Since, I stated my point, I see no further use is discussing this since this is not turning into a polite discussion. If @Beetstra: thinks it should be deleted I would 100% agree.~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 13:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: It's kind of ironic reading that you don't monitor external links, because on the other thread I linked to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture, you posted a question with the title "Should Viu be allowed to post their link on pages?" That post asks: I noticed recently that there has been a lot of articles that link to Viu streaming pages. Is that allowed? Other external links such as Hancinema, Daum, Naver, and MyDramaList don't stream, they are just databases which provide more info. That question kind of indicates you do monitor external links. Also up this thread you listed having trailers as one of the reasons why you link to mydramalist, but your question about Viu states mydramalist doesn't stream, it's just a database. So why did you list having trailers as one of the factors you link to mydramalist again? Nicemagnet (talk) 14:06, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: I asked that cause I remember reading in the WP:ELNO that it was not allowed and it showed up in my watchlist when someone added it to a page I made. As I said, if you really think it should be delete it, please do report it. I stated my point about why I made it and why I think it is good in some cases, but if it such a rule breaker, then it should be deleted. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

In addition to the external links. The external link templates of mydramalist created by CherryPie94, leads to these category pages all made by CherryPie94. How do these category pages better articles on Wikipedia (They don't)? For keeping track of the quantity of external links to mydramalist and making sure there as many external links as possible, this system seems quite useful. Or put in another way. I know for myself I don't have any concern whether the title of a drama series on Wikipedia matches that on mydramalist. This seems important to CherryPie94 as he made these category pages.

1. MyDramaList title ID same as Wikidata
2. MyDramaList title ID not in Wikidata
3. MyDramaList title ID different from Wikidata
4. MyDramaList name ID same as Wikidata
5. MyDramaList name ID not in Wikidata
6. MyDramaList name ID different from Wikidata

Nicemagnet (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: IMDb and HanCinema all use the same categories. It is not something special just used on the template I made. For some reason, the discussion switched from talking about the external link (was being added way before the template. Moreover, this is an external link discussion, not the template discussion) to criticizing me. That is not how a dispute discussion is conducted. Please state your opinion about the link, if you said all you can and gave your full opinion, just wait for other editors to read this and give their opinion. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 22:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: In regards to IMDb and HanCinema you are again resorting to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. But if you want to go there, did the same person that created the IMDb wikipedia page, also create IMDb external link template and IMDb external link category list pages? No? Did the same person that created the HanCinema Wikipedia page, also create the HanCinema external link template and also the HanCinema external link category list pages? No? But you created all of this for mydramalist. Furthermore you go way beyond the two tracking categories that exist for IMDb (IMDb template with invalid id set and IMDb template with no id set‎) and the four that exits HanCinema (HanCinema drama template with no id set‎ and 3 category tracking pages for person ID's). Lastly mydramalist is an open wiki that allows anyone to edit anonymously on any page. IMDb does not allow anonymous editing and HanCinema is not user-generated content to my knowledge. Nicemagnet (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: I meant that I used both IMDb and Hancinema templates to create the other ones since I was pretty new to making template I thought it was necessary. "Lastly mydramalist is an open wiki that allows anyone to edit anonymously on any page." I went there to check and no, it keeps asking me to create an account to edit, so it is not anonymously just like IMDb. I noticed that you have edited your previous post to include "I know for myself I don't have any concern whether the title of a drama series on Wikipedia matches that on mydramalist." Looks like you don't know what those categories are for. Those are for wikidata, not to compare the titles of pages to MyDramaList. As I said previously, if you really think it should be deleted, please do request for it, don't know why this discussion keeps going any longer when you are convinced that it is against the rules. I'm not objecting to it being removed if it goes against the rules, don't know why I have to repeat the somethings over and over. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: I stand corrected on mydramalist allowing anonymous edits. It seeems you need to make an account and then anyone can edit away. I only found out about mydramalist through the wikipedia external links and was not familiar with the website at all before. What I did find a little humorous and unbelievable is your assertion that "I went there to check and no, it keeps asking me to create an account to edit, so it is not anonymously..." You who listed really obscure details about mydramalist to try to justify the external links and having authored the wikipedia page for mydramalist and having created the mydramalist external link templates and the mydramalist category pages, is not familiar with that website's most basic function and had to go there to find out? :D Sure. I think that comment is a great example of how insincere you might be about your relationship to mydramalist. Nicemagnet (talk) 12:07, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@Nicemagnet: I went to check and see if what you claim is true or not, which was false. Both MyDramaList and IMDb (I edit on IMDb frequently) use the same system. Anyone can create an account of both platforms and edit. Moreover, we have already established that user-generated content is not against the rules, but looks like you have no further argument. As I said before, this page is to discuss external links (added by me or other users), it is not to discuss my past edits or the templates I made, there are other pages for that. Here you discuss if the addition of mydramalist link are allowed or not. Moreover, disputes are not resolved in a day, so allow some time for other editors to engage in the discussion. We heard your opinion and they have heard mine, so let's wait and see what the others think. How much further should I prove I'm not related? I don't object to it deleted and just stated why I added it. I have been on Wiki years before I created the template. You are just trying very hard to attack me with no further argument to make. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: Also, in regards to your comment "I meant that I used both IMDb and Hancinema templates to create the other ones since I was pretty new to making template I thought it was necessary." Why did you think it was necessary to make templates to mydramalist? Why did you feel inclined to create a Wikipedia page for mydramalist? Why is it important to you to have mydramalist titles in sync with wikidata titles? Also, please don't say you created templates for two other websites, because those two other templates were made after you were previously questioned about having conflict of interests with mydramalist and they are of two foreign language websites not likely to be relevant to English language readers.

@Nicemagnet: Saying this for the last times, I made it after seeing people add the link manually, same case for all templates I made. Moreover, I submit a request for it be added and the admins approved the template and add it, so go question the admins for approving it. Again, this page is not for questioning me, don't know why you think you are in charge of that when you have never even contributed to Wiki at all. You posted in this page and did know what the use of this page. Here you discuss if the addition of mydramalist links are allowed or not, not the template. And as I said, I don't mind it being deleted, all of the links and template, if it goes against the rules, what more you want me to say? I gladly would proposed the deletion, if a consensus is reached. Your anger and attacks are starting to really show you are part of those Ips/AsianWiki who were also posting angry messages and removing the same links you want to be removed. After the Ips were banned and you got frustrated that other users reverted your edits, you created this account on the same day, wanting the links to be removed. A huge coincidence, right? You are not here to address the issue, you are here to attack anyone who has a different view from you to gain what you want. I think I have said enough and would not reply anymore to you. Whether it is removed or not would be all up to other editors and admins, so wait and see, they might agree with you on removing it. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

@CherryPie94: Why did you feel inclined to create a Wikipedia page for mydramalist? Why is it important to you to have mydramalist titles in sync with wikidata titles?

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zenodo

I saw this edit [1] which adds a mirror of a document at zenodo.org. Is that cromulent? It seems like an aggregator to me, according to its About page everything there is open access so should be available at the original publisher. Guy (Help!) 07:21, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Inline links to Wikia sites?

Hey, I just noticed a link to Memory Alpha in our The Price (Star Trek: The Next Generation) article, and wasn't sure what to make of it. If it were formatted like this I would have removed it without a second thought, but it has just made me aware that links like this one can be produced for sites other than Wikipedia's sister projects. (Wikia sites aren't sister projects, are they?) So now I don't know what to think about it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Well that was sneaky. My knee-jerk reaction is heck no! I'm ok with MA as EL, but not like that. Kill it with fire. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to disallow them, although I can't think of a good example of where one is actually helpful. If we don't have an article or relevant content on the subject and we shouldn't (in that it's too niche, etc.) then under normal circumstances either we don't need the link or we need to see if the article is made more comprehensible with better phrasing that removes the mention in the first place. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:57, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Isn't being sent off-WP by something that looks like a wikilink reason to disallow it? Granted, disaster is unlikely to occur as result. Anyway, a wikilink says "this is us". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

In the ten years I've been active here I can't recall seeing even one unequivocally useful/positive/good/valid/correct inline external link. If a link goes outside the "WMF family" it belongs in the list at the bottom of the article. I'm yet to be shown any valid exception. In general Wikia pages are actually not allowed even in the exlinks list per the prohibition against "fansite" links (see WP:ELNO item #11). Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I removed it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:01, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Actor Databases

I see a trend to add more and more "standard" external links to actor and related articles for example:

• External links/Noticeboard at Find a Grave
• External links/Noticeboard at IMDb
• External links/Noticeboard at the Internet Broadway Database
• External links/Noticeboard at the TCM Movie Database
• Richard Todd at Rotten Tomatoes
• Richard Todd at AllMovie

Can these all really add to the article or is adding for the sake of it and going against wp is not a directory. MilborneOne (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I think it is getting out of hand. Guy (Help!) 20:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

AsianWiki.com and blog.asianwiki.com

• asianwiki.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
• blog.asianwiki.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

AsianWiki links exist on 290+ pages. They are being added as an external link (even when they serve no additional value alongside sites like IMDB and HanCinema): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Harassment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Ri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeong_Yong-ki

The most important thing is that AsianWiki is a user-generated website, which is not reliable WP:UGC. It also goes against WP:ELNO. Links normally to be avoided: (✓) Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. In other words, the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article. Links for future improvement of the page can be placed on the article's talk page. (✓) [Blog AsianWiki] Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites (negative ones included).

They have been linking to their website instead of not linking, linking to other language Wikipedia using Template:ill, or keeping the link red. As what is happening on this page, Special Affairs Team TEN. Kang Sung-Min, Jang Won-Young, Song Yoo Ha, and Jang In-Sub are all linking to AsianWiki for no reason.

Moreover, instead of citing news articles (Which can easily be found for the pages I provided), they cite their database page as a source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Bo-bae#cite_ref-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesung#cite_ref-39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nam_Woo-hyun#cite_ref-30

In addition, the users affiliated with AsianWiki are under investigation for sock puppeting Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/24.252.92.90, which goes against WP:ADV. NTMun12 (talk) 12:22, 28 April 2018 (UTC)