Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Director (talk | contribs) at 14:34, 16 August 2012 (→‎Comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)
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    This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

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    Aliya Mustafina

    – Discussion in progress.
    Filed by JackofDiamonds1 on 21:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    I am bringing up the fact that the Olympic Gold Medalist 2012 Aliya Mustafina is Tatar. I have tried to reflect this in the starting line of the article but faced continuous reverting. I have supplied the links, explaining the notability of this achievement for Tatars, given the fact that very few Tatars are/were Olympic Champions. I have also appealed to the fact that virtually all athletes have their ethnicity/background mentioned in the first line. In addition, I have said that Tatarstan is a sovereign entity with own constitution and president. Somebody is trying to deprive her of her Tatar identity which is clearly a breach of rights.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    I have discussed the matter on user's talk page, explaining the importance and asking not to change it. I have also supplied the links (references) of notability of here being a Tatar.

    How do you think we can help?

    A person should never be deprived of his/her identity, whatever it is. You can protect the right to state the Tatar identity in the front line.

    Best Regards.

    Opening comments by Mbinebri

    WP:OPENPARA specifies that ethnicity should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. JackofDiamonds has not established this relevance and the mainstream media has not made Mustafina's ethnicity a point of emphasis. Instead, JackofDiamonds uses the backwards argument that her ethnicity is important because of her career achievements and that there are - supposedly - few other Tatar Olympic medalists. Unless the media has emphasized this, it's just original research and a point of view.  Mbinebri  talk ← 22:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Aliya Mustafina discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    • Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'm awaiting opening statements before we can begin. Electric Catfish 21:11, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The parties have not yet discussed this matter on the article's talk page (see Talk:Aliya_Mustafina). The DRN instructions at the top of the DRN page state that DRN is "not a substitute for the talk pages: the dispute must have been discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) before resorting to DRN." Recommend that the parties be instructed to try to resolve this on the article Talk page; and if a week goes by without resolution, then start a case here at DRN. --Noleander (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    He said that he has discussed it on the user's talk page. Electric Catfish 21:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    We have discussed it on user's talk page and exhausted our arguments. Thanks. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 21:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, I see a brief discussion at User_talk:Mbinebri#Aliya_Mustafina. This sort of dispute is very common: what nationality to use in the first sentence of a biographical article. The general rule is to survey the reliable sources and see what is most common: Russian? Tatar? Russian Tatar? Getting some google-hit statistics is a good place to start in these kinds of disputes. Also, if the person self-identifies in a particular way (e.g. in an autobiography; or in an interview) that can be a factor. But counting reliable sources is still the best starting point. --Noleander (talk) 21:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I have supplied the references not only confirming the Tatar identity but explaining the importance of her being a Tatar as a role model for the Tatar population. I was comfortable with Russian Tatar but this was always reverted. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 21:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Here are some google hit stats:
    • "Aliya Mustafina" tatar 7,570
    • "Aliya Mustafina" Russian 436,000
    • "Aliya Mustafina" "Russian tatar" 638
    No one is saying she is not Tatar. The question is whether that word appears in the first sentence or not. The stats above suggest that "Russian" alone may be best for the first sentence. The Tatar fact could be later in the lead, and again in the body. --Noleander (talk) 21:41, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    For comparison, here are a couple of articles on olympic athletes with significant ethnic background: Jesse Owens and Jim Thorpe. Looking at the first sentences of those article: The former does not mention that he is African-American, but the latter article does mention he was part Native American. --Noleander (talk) 21:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking some more, I see that "Russian Tatar" (as suggested above by JackofDiamonds1) is a very commonly used description (not just for this one athlete). If no party to this case objects, that two word description may be a good compromise solution for the first sentence of the article. --Noleander (talk) 21:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Tatars are people of Russia and are not easily distinguished by appearance. As she was competing under Russian flag, the media identified here as Russian, hence the google stats. And then comes the mission of Wikipedia to shed the light :) JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Rustafina is Russian by nationality.  Mbinebri  talk ← 22:15, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    She is Tatar, living in Moscow. Her father - Farhad Mustafin. How names Aliya, Farhad, Mustafin(a) can be russian, if they have Tatar (Arabic) origin? Here you can read article in Tatar, there here nationality identicated as Tatar.--Рашат Якупов (talk) 06:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Russian Tatar is not actually a compromise: "Russian Tatar" ≡ "Tatar from Russia", not some combined ethnicity as may seem from the first glance. "Russian" without "Tatar" is ambiguous but normally implies nationality, while "Tatar" without "Russian" means ethnicity and is neutral towards nationality; as the name "Aliya Fargatovna Mustafina" itself leaves no doubt about her ethnicity, the actual argument is about appropriateness of ethnicity information in the article about sports person, and "Russian Tatar" is a straightforward "appropriate" answer. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I have suggested the "Russian Tatar" designation from the beginning. So now it seems like we are all on the same page... JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, my comment misled you. I wanted to say that "Russian Tatar" is not a compromise, as this wording implies the appropriateness of discussing ethnicity in the article, while this appropriateness is the subject of dispute. Though I have my position on this issue, I don't want to get involved into this dispute, so I would keep it undisclosed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please see WP:LEAD. There should be generally no ethnicity in the lead. And User:Рашат Якупов should stop inserting that she was a Muslim without a citation. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 22:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, I dont see any mention of ethnicity in WP:LEAD ... am I missing it? Of course ethnicity may be mentioned in the lead; or are you referring to the first sentence? I do agree that the convention in WP is that nationality is stated in the first sentence, not ethnicity. In this particular case, the question is simply whether the first sentence should contain "Russian" or "Russian Tatar". The latter seems more informative to readers, and seems to have no downsides. --Noleander (talk) 22:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Another compromise solution is this: Use "Russian" in the first sentence, then mention "Tatar" later in the lead, maybe in the 2nd paragraph of the lead. --Noleander (talk) 22:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue with using "Russian Tatar" is that it defines the subject in a way not reflected by media coverage. The media has covered Mustafina as a Russian gymnast - not a Russian Tatar gymnast - and it would place undo emphasis on her ethnicity should we include "Tatar" in the lead. And per my opening argument, WP:OPENPARA is where ethnicity in the lead is covered.  Mbinebri  talk ← 22:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said earlier, the media could not possibly identify her ethnicity. How does a news reporter know that she is a Tatar? It is the mission of Wikipedia to shed the light here. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 22:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Is her ethnicity somehow related to her sport achievements? How would you comment the appropriateness of mentioning her ethnicity in context of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view § Due and undue weight Wikipedia policy? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The sources do say she is Tatar, the only question is whether to put Tatar in the first sentence or not. The guideline cited by Mbinebri is on point: WP:OPENPARA guideline says "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening [paragraph] unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." That, coupled with the rather strong google hits statistics, suggests that the best solution is omit the word Tatar from the first paragraph, but include it later in the Lead section. --Noleander (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not neutral due to the asymmetric information. The international media could not possibly identify her as Tatar (Russian flag) and this does not compromise her Tatar identity. Andy Murray won the gold medal for Team GB but is defined as Scottish on his page. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 23:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    To the contrary, mentioning her ethnicity means placing undue weight on it, as the vast majority of sources choose not to mention it at all. It is not a breach of neutrality, but a long-standing tradition in sport. FWIW other examples of bad practice don't make the practice inherently better, even if this practice is indeed common. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC) updated 23:53, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    These examples did not come out of the blue - they are the results of hard talks, struggle and public consensus; and therefore may serve as precedent. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Wherever these examples come from, they go against unrelated policy and guideline. Another Wikipedia policy — Wikipedia:Consensus — specifically discourage the attempts to use local consensus against the global one. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think there is a global consensus in these matters. I was talking about precedent and I took the examples from the UK as one of the most democratic countries, adherent to human rights. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 00:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, but there is nothing to think about: policies (WP:NPOV) and guidelines (WP:OPENPARA) are the global consensus, and in this particular case it resolves to omitting ethnicity in the lead section. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, these guidelines do not overwrite the human rights principle of self-identification. I thought that you suggested a Russian Tatar option earlier? JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 01:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I said that Russian Tatar is not a compromise, which doesn't imply my judgment on the issue. Note, nobody limits Aliya Mustafina's human right of self-identification, as well as nobody limits your right to report this self-identification once the fact that she exercised it is verified and attributed to reliable sources. You are limited in your right to report this self-identification in the lead section of Wikipedia's article about Aliya Mustafina; this has nothing to do with anybody's human rights and it doesn't stop you from reporting here self-identification in the appropriate place within the rest of article if significant amount of reliable sources consider this self-identification worth mention. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Imagine a scenario: Aliya has decided to emigrate to the US or Germany and renounce her Russian citizenship. Would she still be a Russian? No. Would she be a Tatar? Yes, of course. That's why she is a Tatar at the first place, that is a DEFINITION of her. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 02:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    How long do these dispute resolutions typically stay open? It looks to me like our two most dedicated volunteers in DDC and Noleander agree that WP:OPENPARA applies here and Mustafina's ethnicity doesn't belong in the opening paragraph.  Mbinebri  talk ← 02:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you really think that a piece of criteria has a decisive role here? Please refer to the Wikipedia:Ignore all rules page. I truly believe that mentioning Aliya's identity as Tatar improves and maintains Wikipedia. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 03:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Jack: Please try to be more specific in your wording. No one is saying that Tatar cannot be mentioned ... the only question is where it is first mentioned. In the first sentence? in the first paragraph? in the 2nd paragraph of the Lead? Or down in the body? Historically in WP, many editors who are proud of a certain attribute (a religion, an ethnicity, etc) have tried to "promote" the religion/ethnicity by stating it in the first sentence of biographical articles (and also by including persons in Lists & Categories ... but that is another story altogether :-). Over the years, the consensus has emerged that nationality goes in the first sentence (based on what the majority of sources state); and that other attributes like religion and ethnicity go later ...I maybe in the 2nd paragraph of the lead. The word "Tatar" already appears in the 1st sentence within the pronunciation/spelling block, so readers will get a clue right there. -- Noleander (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I had to include this "rule" to show that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy and hard-line regulation does not work here. We are all working for the public good, using the common sense. I think that the Tatar definition is more CORE as it always stays with the person. Aliya may not always live in Russia (there is a tendency for young people to emigrate these days). However, she will always be a Tatar. I am not opposing the Russian classification as well (for now). My point is that in the interest of full disclosure, improving and promoting Wikipedia, we need to provide the full information on a person. To be honest, I am a bit shocked that we got to the point of discussing this. Could anyone think that in the 21st century, there will be restrictions on stating the ethnicity clearly and proudly? Shame. I need to leave for now, let's return to this tomorrow. Regards. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 03:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Given that this is article is on sports person, I see neither necessity nor appropriateness of mentioning ethnicity in the lead. The lead is a summary of the article (see WP:LEAD), and as such it shouldn't contain statements that are not present in article's body. That's not to mention the fact that sports' long-standing tradition is not to mention ethnicity at all, and Aliya Mustafina is only known for her achievements in sport. BTW, it is more of shame that in 21st century there is a word "ethnicity". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 07:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps it was removed from WP:LEAD, but anyway, I agree that Tatarstan is not a recognized, independent country and there should be no ethnicity in the lead. In this case, we don't need to mention her ethnicity in the lead as it gives an undue weight. If Tatarstan would not be a part of the Russian Federation, then I would reconsider. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 08:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Just to note: this is the essence of the problem — consensus is to report nationality, which is particularly important in sports, as the awards are normally attributed to the countries as much as to the sportspeople themselves. But they are not attributed to ethnicities: nobody states "Tatars won the medal", just "Aliya Mustafina won the medal" or "Russia won 3 medals". The ethnicity of Mustafina may be discussed in the article, if there is enough discussion of her ethnicity in reliable sources, which makes this information worth notice; otherwise her ethnicity is just not relevant, as Wikipedia is not a soapbox for nationalist debates. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    • Hello. I am another dispute resolution volunteer. In addition to the good advice the other volunteers have given above, may I suggest that in the future you discuss changes to articles on the article talk page? You see, it is often the case that someone who is interested in a topic watches the article talk page for discussions. It isn't fair for two editors to go off to a user talk page and discuss the article where anyone watching it won't see the discussion. The general rule is this; if you want to discuss an article, do it on the article talk page. If you want to discuss a user, do it on that user's talk page. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, that is absolutely valid. In this case, I have discussed this on user's page because for me it was something incontestable and I could not imagine that anyone would question Aliya's Tatar identity. Therefore, I have tried to explain a particular user why it is important. JackofDiamonds1

    (talk) 22:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion of opening comments by Mbinebri

    Comment below was moved from Opening comments by Mbinebri, as it's not an opening comment by Mbinebri. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I object. I have supplied the references in the article which were quickly deleted.JackofDiamonds1 (talk)

    Embargo Act of 1807

    – Discussion in progress.
    Filed by So God created Manchester on 22:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    User:AWhiteC and User:36hourblock are currently in a content dispute over the neutrality of 36hourblock's recent edits on Embargo Act of 1807. A Third Opinion was requested, which brought User:So God created Manchester, a third party editor, into the dispute. The contested wording includes the following sentences:

    • "flagrant violations of U.S. neutrality
    • "a profound insult to American honor"
    • "deliberate diplomatic insults and presumptuous official orders"
    • "particularly egregious example of British aggression"

    The dispute is over whether this is acceptable per Wikipedia's policy on Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch guideline. No agreement or consensus has been reached.


    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Wikipedia:Third Opinion

    How do you think we can help?

    I'm bringing this dispute to a wider audience, and hoping that input from other editors can help to resolve the dispute.

    Opening comments by AWhiteC

    I thought parts of the the article had a non-encyclopedic tone. I later found out that this was the result of these edits by 36hourblock. I have suggested changes on the talk page here (see 13 August 2012). In these changes, I tried to leave the meaning the same whilst removing some unnecessary and non-encyclopediac wording. AWhiteC (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Opening comments by 36hourblock

    Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

    Opening comments by So God created Manchester

    I was brought into the dispute via a Third Opinion request. My position is that word choices like "flagrant" and "particularly egregious" are not impartial and are discouraged by Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The wording is not encyclopedic in tone, it introduces bias into the article, and qualifies as editorializing. There are more impartial ways of expressing the same concepts by using language that is more direct and concise. The descriptions can be used if they're in quotations and attributed to an author, but this isn't the case.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Embargo Act of 1807 discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    • Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and I'm awaiting opening statements before we can begin. Hasteur (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm another volunteer here. I'm just waiting for 36hourblock to make a statement. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 22:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, since we have yet to see a post from the opposition to this position, I'm going to propose that we suspend indefinitely this post at 22:14 on the 17th. It should be noted that 36hourblock has been idle since before this post was filed. Pending the suspension, I see a consensus to remove the inflamitory language. Thoughts? Hasteur (talk) 18:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The comment above from party SGCM is the correct thing to do. The Talk page of the article conveys 36hourblock's position: they seem to be misunderstanding the Words To Avoid policy. Just because a source uses a non-encyclopedic word does not mean that WP should repeat those words in the encyclopedia's voice. The words in question should not be used in the article. --Noleander (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Talk:HA Schult

    – Discussion in progress.
    Filed by Wikiwiserick on 12:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    There is a content dispute on the German performance artist, HA Schult. See Talk:HA Schult One editor frequently removes what another editor has written, although the latter claims that all was well sourced. Here are some diffs: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Asking for a third opinion

    How do you think we can help?

    Are the sources I have cited reliable enough according to Wikipedia's policies? For a list of these sources, see Talk:HA Schult.

    Opening comments by Rhode Island Red

    The trigger on DR was pulled too early in this case, as the other editor involved in this dispute, Wikiwiserick, only filed a 3rd opinion request yesterday [8] and then didn’t wait for the reply before coming to DR. Nonetheless, since we're here already...

    One of the flaws that I noticed when I started working on the article was that it relied predominantly on 1 source – an out of print work in German from 1978 – I added a tag to signify this problem and explained it clearly to Wikiwiserick.[9][10][11] Of the remaining sources cited, many were also in German and not verifiable online. That doesn’t necessarily preclude their use, but it’s certainly not ideal, especially given that the article had elements of WP:PUFF and WP:SELFPROMOTE, which I explained [12] to Wikiwiserick, the creator of the article. This scenario is a problem for verification, so I advised the editor to rely more on sources in English, since this is English rather than German WP. There was a also a problem with a few lofty statements about the artist’s significance, which were allegedly based on quotes taken from unverifiable German sources and personally translated into English by Wikiwiserick. That’s not ideal with respect to WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE, not to mention WP translation guidelines.

    I see few if any specific details as to why Wikiwiserick objects to the 7 edits highlighted above. I included edit summaries that explain the rationale and relevant WP policies, but those issues were essentially ignored. The editor seems to be ignoring context and focusing on whether the sources in question are WP:RS on their surface, but that’s not the issue, as a source can be WP:RS in one context but not another, depending on the statement in question. After reviewing the 7 edits highlighted above, 5 out of 7 are straightforward and very easily justifiable. Any issues with those or the other edits should have been addressed on the talk page, but Wikiwiserick bypassed the opportunity to explain his specific objections there, choosing instead to request a third opinion, and then without waiting for the reply, escalate this to DR. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Talk:HA Schult discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    Hi, I'm a DRN volunteer and I'll be assisting this quest. While both opening comments aren't present, I'm going to address the sources THEMSELVES. As some are so-so and others are a no-no and are a core matter of this dispute.

    This is a publication by university people entirely dealing with one of Schult's projects. It also includes general information on the artist. The page number is only given because of the quote: "HA Schult zählt zu den bedeutendsten Aktionskünstlern der Gegenwart" ("HA Schult is one of the most important performance artists of our time"). Wikiwiserick (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the kind of lofty poorly sourced statement that I have a problem with. The proposed text does not attribute the statement to any recognized art experts (or anyone at all for that matter), and there is an issue with respect to WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE. I have already pointed out these issues but it seems they are being ignored.Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    This publication, which analyses, from an academic point of view, one of Schult's projects in detail, has been written by Nico Schröter, Kai Giesler and Philipp Kohde from the Technical University of Cottbus. These three authors have cooperated in writing the text. It is a mystery to me how anybody who knows that Schult created internationally recognized happenings at the cost of millions of dollars, such as his 1977 documenta happening called "Crash" or his 1000 sculptures made of garbage that have travelled to sites such as the Piazza del Popolo, Rome, the Plaza Real, Barcelona, Cologne Cathedral, Moscow's Red Square, the Great Wall of China, the Matterhorn, the Pyramids of Giza, the island of Spitsbergen etc., would question that HA Schult is "one of the most important performance artists of our time", as the source says. It is the same thing as if Rhode Island Red would question the notability of artists such as Christo or Beuys. Wikiwiserick (talk) 18:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a scholarly platform created by more than a dozen German museums of contemporary art providing biographical information on Schult and many other German artists. I would say that this is a reliable source. Wikiwiserick (talk) 14:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on what exactly? Where is there information about the website so that it's reliability can be assessed? My previous request for this information went unanswered.[13] Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    It didn't go unanswered, as I have provided a link to the German Wikipedia article dealing with the prestigious Museumsplattform NRW. There you can find a list including all museums that are part of this serious platform for contemporary art. See also this English commentary. Wikiwiserick (talk) 17:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    When I search for images, I get a load of them, when I search for source, a lot more. Here are some ones that are in English and make mentions that essentially prove his roving trash people tour in a nice summary. [After debuting in Xanten, Germany, in 1996 the entire armada of "Trash People has tweaked the public's sensibilities in settings as varied as the Great Wall of China, Egypt's Pyramids at Giza, Moscow's Red Square and the Matterhorn in the Swiss Alps. Later this year the immobile but moving display will spread its humorous and reflective reduce, reuse and recycle message in New York City and Antarctica." [14] "The "Trash People," by German artist HA Schult, get around. The six-foot-tall figures made out of old computers, soda cans, license plates and other refuse have stood at the Pyramids at Giza, in Moscow's Red Square and on the Great Wall of China. Now, 50 of them are lined up in the courtyard at National Geographic." From Throwaway Art: Don't Trash It." The Washington Post. Washingtonpost Newsweek Interactive. 2008. Retrieved August 15, 2012 from HighBeam Research: [15]

    Some do exist. And these sources are interesting, but I bet better ones could be found. Since this is involved in a dispute, the strongest sources are the best. Ones like the Washington Post are good. As well as most books. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Although your comment came through before I had a chance to reply, it looks like we're pretty much on the same page here Chris. My goal was to improve the article so that it relied more on verifiable high-quality sources in English. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Per Rhode Island Red's comments above, it seems that this dispute developed from a WP:NONENG and WP:RS to a WP:NPOV one. His concern, based from I can gather reading this page and the talk, is that the article's tone is too promotional, and argues that it exaggerates the claims of the sources, which are difficult to verify. So it's not just a dispute over verification, but also a dispute over neutrality. I think the following can be done to improve the article, and resolve the dipsute with Wikiwiserick:

    • Tone down the praise for the artist.
    • Balance the praise with criticism, as per WP:BALANCE. Currently, the article gives too much weight to the praise.
    • Replace contested sources with stronger sources when possible.

    As ChrisGualtieri has indicated, there are plenty of sources on the subject, and the subject is clearly notable, so the task shouldn't be difficult.--SGCM (talk) 17:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Here are some further sources:

    • Carly Schmitt, "Headwinds: Sustainability as a Theme in Contemporary Public Art", The Environmentalist, Volume 32, Number 3 (2012), 332-338. - This source deals with artists' projects that "express a concern about the current state of the environment and propose projects that try to raise an awareness about this subject and offer up solutions. A very basic example of this work can be seen in a piece entitled Garbage People by HA Schult (2001)."
    • Mélanie van der Hoorn, "8:01 am, 20,000 people, and 450 kilograms of explosives: elimination of the Kaiserbau as a secular sacrifice", Focaal, Volume 2005, Number 46, Winter 2005, pp. 109-127. - This source states: "When, in 1999, artist HA Schult realized his project Hotel Europa and hung over a hundred portraits of famous people in front of each room on one side of the ex-would-be hotel, one of the walls was painted in yellow with a big black post horn: the logo of the German post office."
    • Hilmar Frank, "Raum/Zeit-Schichtungen: Bemerkungen zu einem Chronotopos", in Tatjana Böhme, Klaus Mehner and Tatjana Böhme-Mehner, eds., Zeit und Raum in Musik und Bildender Kunst (Cologne: Böhlau Verlag, 2000), pp. 99-100. - This scholarly essay discusses Schult's object, "Deutsch-Land" (1986, Berlin, Bundestag), which was commissioned by the politicians of the German Bundestag. The author also mentions that Schult has been called the "Caspar David Friedrich of the consumption age".
    • Esperanza Galindo Ocaña, "Arte y ecología. El diálogo de ciencia, pensamiento y arte", Arte by suite101, 11 March 2011. - This source contextualizes Schult's Beach Garbage Hotel, but I am not sure if it is reliable enough.
    • Jorge Verstrynge, "Inmigración: Cuando las barbas de tu vecino...", El Viejo topo, No. 245, 2008, pp. 62-67. This source proves that Schult's work is recognized in the Spanish-speaking world. It may be listed in the "Further reading" section.

    Could these sources be used for improving the Wikipedia article? Any suggestions? Wikiwiserick (talk) 19:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Suite101 is definitely not reliable. It's a content farm, similar to eHow and about.com, with little editorial oversight. The other sources, the journals and books, look more reliable, although English sources are preferred.--SGCM (talk) 22:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    As the other Spanish source does not primarily deal with Schult's "trash people", I would agree with Rhode Island Red not to list it in the "Further reading" section. In the meantime, I did some further research on the Internet and have now found a source including some critical remarks on Schult. However, it is not written in English. Therefore, I have written an English summary for the Wikipedia page:

    In his article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung on the occasion of the artist’s 70th birthday, Philip Krohn has mentioned that there are critics who have claimed that Schult's art is too commercial or too shallow and that he has had no new ideas for too long a period of time. Others have argued that his works are too bizarre to play a role on the commercial art market. The artist himself admits that he had problems to establish his reputation as an artist in the USA, because his art would criticize America's consumption-driven economy. (Philip Krohn, "HA Schult, Der Müllkünstler", Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 3 August 2009.)

    Would you agree to include this passage, perhaps in a modified form, in the Wikipedia article on Schult? Furthermore, I would like to reinclude the following paragraph, as I have now found the original source, which contains both German and English texts:

    Indeed, the artist "develops his ideas full of comment on contemporary issues, promotes them in a process and tries to initiate criticism of our present situation with naively disguised intellect." However, sometimes "he overdoes things with verbal energy - and in this respect he resembles Joseph Beuys – as a person himself, a solist playing himself, marked as a work of art." (art Report: HA Schult, cited after HA Schult, Ernst Wasmuth and Elke Grapenthin, Kunst ist Aktion: Aktionen sind gelebte Bilder (Tübingen: Wasmuth, 2001), unnumbered page. For a comparison of Schult and Beuys, see also Jürgen Schilling, Aktionskunst. Identität von Kunst und Leben? Eine Dokumentation (Luzern and Frankfurt am Main: Verlag C.J. Bucher, 1978), pp. 168-69.)

    Any comments or suggestions? Wikiwiserick (talk) 00:11, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Progress is a good thing, glad to see the content matter is being addressed without hammering it in. Anyways... I like that, but when quoting make a direct comment on who said it and make an inline citation. I've had to search for origins of quotes before... not fun, even having who said it (rather than the source afterwards) helps if it ever 404s to properly attribute it. Attribution of quotes is important. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    I would like to reinclude a reference to the following source, perhaps in a "Bibliography" section:

    Furthermore, a reference to this academic source may be included in the article. It states on p. 9 that Schult laid out the large sum of four million marks for the exhibition of his "trash people" on the "five-thousand-year-old Chinese symbol of the Great Wall." Wikiwiserick (talk) 13:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport

    – General close. See comments for reasoning.
    Filed by AlanM1 on 14:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]
    Closed discussion
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    User 72.89.35.142 adds incorrect info to airport articles, for which they have been repeatedly warned on their talk page. In the present case, User:AlanM1 edited the list of destinations at Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport to correct it back to researched and cited sources, noting the details on the article talk page and those of the involved users. The IP user wasted no time in re-adding a non-existent destination, with no edit summary, and writing nothing in response on either talk page.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    (As described in overview,) posted to both article and user talk pages.

    How do you think we can help?

    1. Confirm my objection to the un-sourced and invalid content.
    2. Convince the user that they cannot continue to ignore the community – they have a pattern of this abuse according to their talk page
    3. Revert the edit and block them if they won't play nice


    Opening comments by 72.89.35.142

    Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

    Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    I would like for the IP to respond, but the chances of that are low, due to the fact the user does not have a userpage which is immediately accessible and because the IP can hop easily. If this goes stagnant I would opt for page protection. Removing sourced information is typically a bad thing when you replace it with nothing and never respond. But let's give this a chance. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Just for accuracy, this particular user's part of the issue was to add Doha via Qatar Air as a destination. The first time he did it, removing the existing Qatar Air destinations of LHR, Medan, and Surabaya was actually correct – it's just the addition of Doha (and Qatar Airways) that is wrong :) —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 15:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this a content dispute? or a behavior issue? Is there any question about what the destinations are? Looking at the Talk page of the article, it looks like the IP(s) have not engaged in conversation yet: Alan posted a comment on the Talk page yesterday, but the IP(s) have not yet responded. Should we give the IP the opportunity to engage on the article Talk page first? --Noleander (talk) 16:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Apparently both. I updated Talk:Prince Nayef Bin Abdulaziz Regional Airport#Destinations with the timeline.
    • I investigated the destinations carefully, using the airlines own timetables, a CRS, and a realtime flight status site, and cited them at 2012-08-04T15:53Z. Feel free to check yourself, but I believe this version to be correct.
    • In the following 5 days, 4 different IP editors each changed the table to add/remove something wrong incorrectly, without communication or explanation.
    • About 2012-08-14T22:35Z I posted a note about it on the talk page and each user's talk page and fixed the article.
    • Less than two hours later, User:72.89.35.142 added carrier QR again, with a (non-existent by all sources) flight to DOH, without explanation anywhere.
    They didn't respond to the complaint, instead going right ahead and doing it again. Their talk page is full of similar issues, some of which they don't respond to (at least not there). They haven't come here to respond in the (admittedly-short) 7 hours since the case was opened. Let's not let it drag on too long – there will likely be work to do to fix other articles, too, and it's time consuming, with most airlines choosing to use interactive tools instead of easily searched flight lists :( —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 23:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    They just responded positively. The problems are likely over. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 23:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Jason Leopold

    – General close. See comments for reasoning.
    Filed by RavenThePackIsBack on 17:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]
    Closed discussion
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    I've been adding some new info to one of the articles titled Jason Leopold and I also left some comments on the talk page. A user named Bonewah has been scrubbing my stuff and then saying I am banned, which isn't true. The stuff I added is legitimate and follows all Wikipedia guidelines. Please check it out. This is an article that is always biased and no one tries to add new stuff and there's a lot of new stuff on the internet that will make this more balanced. Why isn't the new stuff being used if the article has so many watchers? Shouldn't new stuff be included? Isn't that what makes the article current? I added a new section on the FOIA lawsuit and please review it cause I think that one is important for the article. Here's the section on the FOIA I added. Can someone tell me if they think there's anything wrong with it?

    Leopold and the group National Security Counselors sued the FBI, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the National Archives and Records Administration and other government agencies and that they violated a section of the FOIA law for five years by refusing to give people who file FOIA requests a date as to when their requests will be ready as the law requires.[10] In June, in response to Leopold's lawsuit, the FBI and the National Archives and the Office of Director of National Intelligence issued new policy guidelines to their staff and told them to comply with requests about giving estimated dates of completion regarding FOIAs when they're asked for it. FBI's FOIA head David Hardy explained the new policy guidelines in a declaration. RT said, "It might be a small victory, but a victory nonetheless." [11]

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    I left info on the talk page that's not being addressed.

    How do you think we can help?

    allowing the new info to stand and telling Bonewah that I am allowed to make additions and edits cuz I am following the rules and that I'm not banned.

    Opening comments by Bonewah

    Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

    Jason Leopold discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    Closing Note: I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. It appears to me that this is not, at root, a content dispute. Bonewah appears to be taking a hard position that RavenThePackIsBack is a sockpuppet of a topic-banned user (probably Jimmy McDaniels) and removing Raven's edits for that reason only. Removal of a banned editor's edits via puppetry, for no other reason than the fact that they are banned, is a legitimate action but such removals and any controversy over such removals is a conduct matter, not a content matter. I would suggest that Bonewah should probably make a ban evasion report at Sockpuppet Investigations before continuing to revert Raven's edits, but should Bonewah not care to do so, or should Raven care to take this matter further at this time, Raven should report Bonewah's action to the Administrators' Noticeboard for investigation. I'm not saying that Bonewah is wrong or right, but one of those forums, not DRN, is the right place for this issue. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Slavonia

    – Discussion in progress.
    Filed by Tomobe03 on 18:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC).[reply]


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Basically, User:DIREKTOR persistently removes sourced material and inserts original research based on their beliefs as indicated in the talk page (e.g. on colour of coat of arms of Slavoina "Honestly I think Šutej just used the lighter shade of blue for every other segment of the crown so as to avoid having them all mesh together (there's no border between them)." despite sources defining the colour, denying the region is a geographic region, inserting WP:OR flag of the region (when challenged for a source of the flag dismissing the challenge saying "I wonder how anyone could possibly source "unofficial use" or lack thereof"). An example of removal of sourced material is evident in removal of the "Eastern Croatia" term from the article. All my concerns were in effect dismissed as a case of WP:OWN, although I have no sense of ownership of articles - for example Croatian War of Independence was substantially rewritten after I nominated it for GA and I welcome the new changes and have even discussed and proposed new development of the article. Prior to this dispute, all claims in the article were properly supported by sources as the article passed GA review on 19 June.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    I tried discussing the issues directly with the other editor in dispute

    How do you think we can help?

    I hope to get some assistance in preserving sourced material, and in removal of original research/POV and other unsupported claims from the article.

    Opening comments by DIREKTOR

    Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.

    Um... actually, the above is just plain untrue. And imo that's kind of obvious from my edits [16], whereby I reword unsourced text to render it more in accordance with the cited source (Frucht 2004). Maybe there's some mystery source that says Slavonia is a "geographic region", certainly Tomboe talks about some "sources" I'm apparently in a conflict with - but he did not point out any sources that actually support him, nor is there a single ref in the entire paragraph (I'm talking about the lead here, the entire lead is unsourced).

    The main problem, as I've attempted to explain to the best of my ability on Talk:Central Croatia is Tomboe's completely OR regionalization of Croatia that he's implemented. With all due respect for his excellent expansion of these articles, the user is apparently confused with regard to what these regions are, that is to say, how they're defined. He's confused terrain-defined, purely geographic regions like Mountainous Croatia with historical/cultural regions like Slavonia, and has created such a mess its hard even to explain, people just look at how well-written the articles are and assume the very basic organization can't possibly be something the guy just thought of. Basically he's copy-pasted verbatim the infobox I'd written on the Dalmatia article, misunderstood the meaning of "geographic region" and created his own, completely unsourced system of Croatin regions..

    As for the coat of arms & flag, Tomboe insists I accept the colour scheme on the right-most segment of the crown of the File:Coat of arms of Croatia.svg as the "official coat of arms of Slavonia". However, as I've pointed out, that's the coat of arms of the Republic of Croatia, not of Slavonia, and such interpretations are again OR. There is no official coat of arms of Slavonia defined by Croatian law. Instead I've looked at what the colour scheme was on actual coats of arms of Slavonia, and found that they use a darker blue, while the CoA of the Republic of Croatia (from 1990) probably uses baby blue on every other segment of the crown so as to avoid using the same colour in every one.

    Oh yes, its a silly dispute :). About as silly as it gets.. -- Director (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Talk:Slavonia discussion

    Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.

    Question to parties: when was the coat of arms of Slavonia in separate use (outside the coat of arms of Croatia)? Are there any descriptions of this coat of arms from the period when it was used as such? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment

    Non volunteer comment' If i read correctly you said "User:DIREKTOR persistently removes sourced material and original research based on their beliefs" the sourced material should be discussed on the talk page, but if there removing original research i cant see why there is problem, everything has to be wp:verifiable with 3rd party [[wp:rs}}--Andrewcrawford (talk - contrib) 18:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    You read it correctly. Please take a look at the talk page and article history and you'll see for yourself that the user ignores or even explicitly dismisses offered sources, while openly claiming that a part (coat of arms) of the article should be amended to fit their impressions of what the original author though in spite of offered reliable source to contrary. The problem is that any removal of OR or restoration of sourced material is repeatedly reverted by the same user making editing impossible and direct discussion futile.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to update it say they removed source material and replace it with original research as just now it suggest they remove original research--Andrewcrawford (talk - contrib) 19:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, I'm a volunteer here. Before we go any furhter, can we wait until DIREKTOR has an opportunity to respond? Thanks Hasteur (talk) 20:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course. I've never been here before, so I assumed I should respond to the above post by Andrewcrawford. Sorry about that.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, for future reference: you're supposed to notify the other guy yourself, and as soon as possible. Not wait 'til someone else does it by which time the other guy might be at the beach... :) -- Director (talk) 09:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Question for parties - Is this an accurate recapitulation: There is no official Slavonia COA, but there is an implicit/unofficial one that can be derived from the rightmost portion of the Croatian COA; and both parties agree that it is okay to use the shape (but not colors) of the implicit/unofficial one in the article (although Tomobe says it is official). The main question remaining is what shade of blue to use: Tomobe suggests using the light blue used in the Croatian COA, but Direktor wants to use a darker blue. The light blue correlates with the shade used on the Croatian COA, but Direktor says that is just an artifact of the need to get contrast between the five adjacent blue regions; Direktor says that darker blue is correct because historical Slavonia (family?) COAs use darker blue. Because there is no clearly official Slavonia COA, it is impossible to find sources which definitively state the correct colors. Thus some judgement is needed to determine which blue is best. Is that all correct? --Noleander (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Another question: Does any reliable source contain a depiction of the official coat of arms of the Kingdom of Slavonia (1699 to 1868)? Presuming that the recapitulation above is accurate, it seems that If there is a clearly defined shade of blue for the Kingdom's historical COA, that blue would - in my judgement - have preference over the lighter shade utilized in the "5 adjacent regions" in the Croatian COA. --Noleander (talk) 12:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    That is all indeed accurate. As I said on the article's talkpage, I've done a little digging. I found a collection of photographs of old Croatian coats of arms [17]. Most date from the early 19th century, and I think you'll find the vast majority use a distinctly darker shade than baby blue. Some of the lighter-appearing images seem on more than one occasion to be merely faded out. -- Director (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, those images look like they'd be a good source to use. I concur that those have higher precedence that the light blue from the 1/5 Croatia COA. Unless some better sources are found, I'd recommend just grabbing some pixels from the 2 or 3 best images on that web site, and averaging their RGB values to come up with a color to use in WP. Question for Direktor: How did you pick the exact shade (RBG values) of blue you are proposing? --Noleander (talk) 13:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, ages ago when I introduced the use of that exact shade on several images, I was copying the one used on the old Croatian and Yugoslav flags, but the former unfortunately changes colours more often than a teenage girl getting ready for a night out.. In accordance with the historical combined coats of arms, I'm eventually hoping to introduce the usage of the same main shade of blue for both the Croatian, Dalmatian, and the Slavonian shields. That's really rather secondary, though. The main issue is that it isn't light, baby blue. -- Director (talk) 13:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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