Talk:Main Page/Archive 194/Section 7

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Graphic but educational image of intersex person on main page?[edit]

Hi all

I just wanted to query the POTD currently scheduled at Template:POTD/2019-10-28. As far as I'm aware, the convention has been that even though WP:NOTCENSORED applies to articles, we don't include very graphic images of genitalia on the main page. Thus images such as this, this, and even this are listed at Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused as images which, despite being featured pictures, are not suitable for POTD. I personally think that's a sensible policy, and I've added the hermaphrodite picture to the unused list, but would welcome second/third opinions here please. Pinging Adam Cuerden, who created the template in question. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 22:06, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Amakuru: Please change the section heading to the more neutral "Image depicting an intersex person on the main page?".--- Coffeeandcrumbs 12:58, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It sure does have an educational function, though... Drmies (talk) 22:10, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree, its disgusting and not to mention kids use Wikipedia and if that's the first thing they see on the Main page then well! Stuff like that should not be on the Main page in my view. ImpWarfare (talk) 22:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not disgusting at all unless you find the natural variations of the human body to be disgusting. Torture, murder, starvation and warfare are disgusting, not human bodies. So I disagree with you on that count, ImpWarfare, and agree instead with Drmies that the image is educational, useful, and should be displayed in the appropriate articles. Where I do agree with you is that it is not a good idea to display explicit photos of human genitalia on the main page, so I oppose that particular usage. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:14, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Disgusting is the wrong word. Far too subjective. Disturbing, for sure, to many people (but not all). And I agree, the Main Page is probably not the best place to display it. HiLo48 (talk) 06:23, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. This is my thought too and the reason I raised this. I don't find this disgusting at all, it's just body parts, and certainly educational... I wish we could live in a world where such things are generally accepted for educational purposes. But we don't, yet, and it's not Wikipedia's place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Like it or not, if parents/teachers/people with sensitive dispositions find genital pics on our front page, it damages our standing as a reputable resource in their eyes and they may stop visiting Wikipedia. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 07:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ImpWarfare, stuff that starts with "disgusting" and continues with "but the children!" rarely flies here. Drmies (talk) 23:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honestly I think that most readers would find this a fascinating image, both on account of the medical aspects and from the historical perspective. It is just a pity that the blurb does not provide more information about the circumstances in which this photograph was taken. Some readers will certainly be offended, but I suspect in reality rather a small proportion (maybe that is my British/European bias). Children will not be horrified but intrigued. I don't think that anyone will stop viewing the main page on subsequent days because such an image occurs once in a blue moon. It is a trade-off between disturbing a few and interesting and educating many. I would vote for presenting it, but there would need to be a consensus otherwise someone will pull it on the day. Jmchutchinson (talk) 15:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I sincerely believe this photo should be shown on the Main Page. It is not disturbing, and certainly not disgusting. Many people come to Wikipedia for exactly this. I think we are underestimating our audience. The page views show that our articles on human organs are hugely popular; I would venture to guess in a significant part due to innocent adolescent curiosity. The other images Amakuru linked have a different reason for not being posted on the Main Page. They are salacious according to WP:POTD/G. There is nothing salacious about this photo. It represents one of the best things about Wikipedia: the availability of free knowledge without bias or censorship – just there in front of you with neither fear nor shame. The only thing we have to fear is fear of knowledge. Will people snicker? Will they spew some hate at us? Yes, sure. But so what? We get tons of hate mail and vandalism every hour, every minute. This is nothing new. Just like the existence of intersex people is nothing new. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 17:12, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    That section calls out examples of "if a picture probably wouldn't make the front page of a major newspaper like The New York Times, then it shouldn't be on the front page of Wikipedia either." - would you expect this image to appear in another such publication's front page? — xaosflux Talk 23:29, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    AND · THE TIMES · THEY · ARE · A-CHANGIN. Also, this photograph of a naked four-year-old girl appeared on the front cover of Aperture, which according to our article on the magazine is an award-winning international magazine, about photography. This section of the Main Page has a similar interest to Aperture and is not even visible on mobile phones. It is also below the fold for most laptops. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 11:40, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this is going to be the "vote" place for this, I'd say no. No issue with the topic being on the MP (e.g. if it was in DYK, TFA, etc), but placing a picture of genitals on the MP is certainly going to be off-putting for many of our readers. I'd like to quote from Jimbo: In all parts of the world, there are images that people under the principle of least astonishment don't expect to pop up on their screen at an encyclopedia without clicking something first...(regarding NSFW content,2013). — xaosflux Talk 23:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I chose carefully: That day is Intersex Awareness Day; Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, it's an important image in its own right, and displaying it serves an educational function about a subject. Unlike some of the other images in that group, there's no-one else in the frame (the photos of the genitalia being prodded I could understand being skipped), it's simple genitalia, with no sexual content, and we have had genitalia on the main page before (Template:POTD/2009-10-20 for instance) - I can't see how a simple medical photograph is so disturbing that we need to protect people from learning about the subject. Also, while I expected some discussion, I wasn't expecting to have to have the discussion now, and, inevitably, again in three months' time, when it's due to run. The main page doesn't show FPs on mobile, so it's not like people are going to be getting surprises on their phones, only on proper desktops. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.8% of all FPs 05:09, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Just some of the many examples of paintings with nudity we have featured can be found here and here. We even had one called The Rape of the Daughters of Leucippus. And this one which in my POV objectifies women. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 11:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    No comment yet on this either way, but in nearly all cases of art as POTD that includes nudity, the nudity/genitalia are de minimus to the overall composition. Here, the image is clear focus on those parts as well as being in realistic detail. It's not an equal comparison. --Masem (t) 13:50, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Masem, that is certainly not the case here and here where nudity is the main point. Why does art get a pass? Why are genitalia censored but not other body parts. This line of argumentation is fraught with POV. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 14:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not that its nudity, it it detailed focus on the genitalia. Add that there's a general recognizition that classical art of that period will likely included nudity, and I think there's a common perception that that is generally not offensive to anyone. And in these cases, this is artistic drawings, not highly detailed photographs. I fully recognize that this photo was done for medical purposes, and certainly no intent to be provocative, but I'm sure there will be people that take it that way, due to the positioning and focus. Basically it is not really a fair comparison to put this photo against artwork that has been featured on the main page. I still offer no opinion whether it should be included or the like. --Masem (t) 16:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Adam Cuerden: regarding Intersex Awareness Day, if the article can resolve the cleanup concerns, you may want to look in to having it put on Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/October 26 if the discussion below is not in support of the image placement. — xaosflux Talk 15:21, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If I might be allowed a moment to vent about how poorly this whole thing is being handled: NO-ONE EVEN BOTHERED TO SEND ME A TALK PAGE MESSAGE? The discussion didn't successfully ping me, you know. Nothing in my alerts about it. It looks like you tried. It didn't work, though, unless I'm missing something.

But, seriously, Amakuru? You started this discussion in an untimely manner, basically guaranteeing a revisit nearer the time if the discussion is successful for the image, you didn't talk to me first, and failed to notify me or anyone else to allow the for-sidecan be put forwards before the voting starts? I'm sure this was accidental, but still, you should know better than this. Was October 28th feeling so near that you couldn't wait and ask for the reasons I thought it was appropriate before you started a survey that practically begs for people to deny its main page place through its subject line, framing, and lack of contextualization? Calling a simple, non-sexualised nude, by a notable artist "graphic" seems excessive. And it's not like we haven't put up plenty of graphic images before. Do you know how many close-ups of dead bodies have been on the main page? Because I found three on a quick check, and remember at least two others, including that somewhat infamous video of people being killed in a targeted shooting - I think from a helicopter or drone - in Iraq, I think? You presented the subject completely devoid of its historical importance, educational value, notability of itself and the photographer, and instead encouraged a framing that ignored all positive aspects, and that's going to really skew the discussion.

This isn't the kind of thing I'm going to hold a grudge over, and certainly doesn't call for any backlash against Amakuru. But I do need to point out how badly this was fucked up, so it (hopefully) doesn't happen again.

Also, the things removed from the main page for salaciousness? None of them are after 2006, by my count. Are we going to bring back literal decade-old censoriousness that has't been used since then? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.8% of all FPs 05:16, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose This image should be on Wikipedia, it is an important and informative image with a significant story to tell. The topic should be on the MP. But a photo of genitalia is not what people expect to see when coming to the front page of Wikipedia, and that will harm Wikipedia's reputation and use. Prior examples of nudity listed above are artistic representations, not photos of actual people: one may feel that distinction doesn't matter, but it is one that society makes. Bondegezou (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - thanks to everyone for the comments so far. Given the wide variety of views already expressed on this topic, (I had hoped for a straight yes or no to whether it's OK), it's going to be hard for anyone to make a definitive decision on what to do. I'm therefore converting this to a full RFC and the final decision on whether to post or not-post the image on the main page can be decided by an uninvolved admin based on the opinions expressed. Hopefully, whichever way this goes, a decision made by RFC will also remove any need for possible subsequent discussions that might take place nearer the time or on the day. And @Coffeeandcrumbs I'm not removing "graphic" from the title, since that's the purpose of the discussion; we aren't just discussing this because the person is intersex. I had added "educational image of intersex person" to the title though, to provide a bit more context and because nobody disputes that.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I have added notices at WT:NPOV, WT:MED, WT:SEX, and WT:WikiProject Gender Studies. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 14:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging @Coffeeandcrumbs: @Masem: @Bondegezou: @Adam Cuerden: @Xaosflux: @Drmies: @Jmchutchinson: @HiLo48: @Cullen328: @Isanae: @ImpWarfare: @Amakuru-Mobile: who have already participated in this discussion, to notify that I have started a formal RFC. Hopefully the ping works this time.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I share the concerns expressed (primarily in the survey below) that featuring a photo focusing on a person's genitals is a questionable way to bring focus to intersex people, whether on Intersex Awareness Day or any other. Intersex people are already quite misunderstood as it is; the majority are not "true hermaphrodites" as depicted (and of course the word "hermaphrodite" itself should no longer be used for such people), and don't necessarily have visibly obvious variations in genitalia as shown in the photo. I hope some (more) actually intersex people weigh in on this discussion, as I fear featuring this photo on the main page could cause serious distress to members of that community, which is of course the opposite of the intended purpose. Funcrunch (talk) 19:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question I wonder if, for that day, if the image can be right justified (And if necessary, left-justify any DYK). There's just something when the image is left-justified that your eyes go right to it, while if it were on the right, it seems less -- apparent? I don't know how POTD works to know if that's an option or not. Alternative, a slight reduction in size (50%?) also may help without ruling out the use of the image. --Masem (t) 21:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I wrote an essay a while back, User:Ritchie333/NOTCENSORED isn't just about boobies. Every time somebody uses NOTCENSORED to justify putting shocking images in the encyclopedia, it runs the risk of devaluating the less talked about times where that policy makes a real positive difference. (random example) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Intersex pride boat
  • Comment: It's a powerful image. Thanks for your work, Adam, in restoring it. I would unequivocally support its addition to the Intersex article. I'm still considering whether it's a good fit for the main page. If there is interest in looking for a non-nude photo that could be used for Intersex Awareness Day, I submit a picture of an intersex pride boat for consideration. WanderingWanda (talk) 00:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Whoops, didn't know when I suggested this that the picture of the day has to rated as a Featured Picture. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compromise suggestions: I voted support below, but acknowledge that the consensus is against this. However, many of the opposers recognised the historical interest of the pictures as well as their educational and interest value; they were concerned that readers might not want to see a close-up of genitalia. I can think of 2 compromises that might satisfy most in both camps, based on the other images in the series displayed at Hermaphrodite (Nadar). One is to run another image from the same series that is not a close-up of genitalia: e.g. this or even this. Another possibility might be to make up a 3 x 3 montage of all images, so that each is reduced to a thumbnail; each component image would be small enough not to offend but large enough for readers to recognise what they would see if they clicked to enlarge. Jmchutchinson (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jmchutchinson: The problem with this is that those files aren't featured pictures on the English Wikipedia; we can't simply select any image for POTD. If we were to run those, the photos would have to be restored and undergo the featured picture process first. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 10:10, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    True, but, if someone has the skills and the will, would there not be time to do this before the end of October? Or for another date. Jmchutchinson (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, procedural question. Do any words written here (main page talk) have any actual effect on the actual procedure which results in the actual publishing of the picture of the day?

My understanding is that there's a written-down procedure which results in the actual publishing of the picture of the day, and I assume that no part of that procedure includes instructions to the effect of "Also, check what main page talk says" or "first check the results of any external surveys".

I note this beause a similar situation came up a few years ago regarding another controversial pending main page entry, in the "did you know?" section. Those folks were pretty pointed about "we have our own discussions, which are based purely on whether the proposed entry meets the technical requirements, and we aren't required to pay the slightest attention to any opinions made outside or after our own discussions and decisions have concluded, particularly any opinions which do not speak solely to our listed technical requirements. And we won't." And they didn't.

I'm just wondering if this is play here, or what. I mean, the survey below is running 56-10 against including the image, is this going to be translated into any actual effect, or is it just a moot court? The person/people who are resposnible for the actual actions to pubish the picture-of-the-day images could reassure here. Herostratus (talk) 03:48, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Herostratus: I can reassure on both counts really. (1) featured images for which there is no consensus to allow at POTD are listed at Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused, and precedent says that community discussions can dictate what is listed there. (See the reason why the top entry is not appearing - it was [based on this discussion). And (2), I'm currently the POTD coordinator anyway, so it's not like I'm going to go against the community on this one when I also don't support it being on the MP. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 20:20, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, then! Thanks for responding. Herostratus (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru, I would like to point out this discussion does not mean that this photograph goes into the Unused page. You asked in the RfC: "Should the Picture of the Day entry currently at Template:POTD/2019-10-28 be used on the main page on that day?" (Emphasis mine.) This RfC does not preclude moving this POTD to a different day. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 17:37, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, come off it, Coffeeandcrumbs, you can't WikiLawyer it that way. Although some Oppose !votes here are related specifically to the Intersex Awareness Day, there is nonetheless a clear consensus that the image is not suitable for the MP at all. We don't need to repeat this exercise all over again just to ascertain that it can't be posted on another day. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree. Dismissing NOTCENSORED is not something I am willing to pass without significant objection from myself. This RfC was framed around Intersex Awareness Day. I believe people would be less willing to ignore the obvious censorship if it was about a different day. My point of view may seem ridiculous to you but I am very determined in its merits. Barring nudity from the Main Page is exactly the opposite of what five pillars stand for. Every time we do this, we choose to stand on side of the POV that says genitals are something to be ashamed of and hidden. This is a photograph of genitalia. Period. It is a very notable photograph of genitalia and is therefore featured. There is nothing more to say. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffeeandcrumbs: This is not a "photograph of genitalia". This is a photo of a human being. And I as I hope my prior comments in this discussion made clear, I would be opposed to featuring it on the main page on any day. This is not about censorship, it's about dignity and respect for intersex people. Funcrunch (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Funcrunch, I stand corrected. This is a photograph of human genitalia. Perhaps you do not understand that I would support this photograph of a penis being featured just as adamantly because it has educational value. The photograph of an intersex person from 1860 is not disrespectful, especially in 2019. The person is long dead. I will admit that doing this on Intersex Awareness Day is ill-advised. But barring all nudity of intersex people or any people altogether is most certainly censorship. It is no different that saying "there are no gay people in Russia" or... "it is fine as long as you do it in the privacy of your own home" or... "why do gay people need marriage? aren't civil unions enough?" or... "colored people have their own swimming pools". It is a tired old line. It is the intentional withholding of information and the segregation of a people, from either way you look at it. We are treating our readers like 2-year-olds that cannot understand nuance and must be protected from knowledge.
This is a slippery slope. Tomorrow is the 100th anniversary of the Chicago race riot but I can't put this photograph on the Main Page. We continue to adhere to the same old ideas of "decency" and forget our primary purpose: the sum of all human knowledge. We are not here to collect and feature non-offensive knowledge but to collect and feature all human knowledge, and the most notable of which we feature, briefly, on our Main Page. Yesterday, we featured the baptism of Jesus Christ. I honestly find the veneration and deification of any human or even any god as offensive, and the cause of most human problems but I did not complain. Why are the things that offend me any less important? --- Coffeeandcrumbs 00:56, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffeeandcrumbs: The photo of a penis that you linked to above is indeed a "photograph of human genitalia". There is no identifiable person visible in the photo, only the penis itself. As such I would have no objection to it being featured on the main page of Wikipedia. The photo in question is not comparable, and while you might not find it disrespectful to intersex people, others, including actually intersex people, have said that it is. Speaking as a queer black person, I do not find your comparisons to heterosexism and racism at all compelling. And speaking as an atheist, I don't think your opinion or my opinion on deities has anything to do with this topic. Funcrunch (talk) 02:10, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Funcrunch, I have no objection to cropping the image to show only the genital area. But we all know that the majority of the people here are not actually opposed to the face. BTW, I am also a queer black person and the correlations are abundantly clear, to me at least. But my POV is besides the point; that is exactly my point. What is important is NPOV. We should avoid clouding our actions and reasoning with our preconceptions and assumptions. We let the reader decide what to make of it. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 02:25, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How about another of Nadar's photos? The subject is in a much more active position in this one File:Hermaphrodite_by_Nadar_4.jpg. It sounds like these images did a lot to advocate for the history of sexual health, or at least according to the journal of medicine, i'm glad it will be highlighted on the main space. I'm also opposed to cropping artwork as it changes the integrity of the composition.Fred (talk) 23:14, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (intersex person image)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
With 78% opposed (43:12), I think it is clear what the community's opinion is. See the bottom of this section. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 01:49, 29 July 2019 (UTC), edited 16:53, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should the Picture of the Day entry currently at Template:POTD/2019-10-28 be used on the main page on that day?

  • No. Per Xaosflux comments above, and the quote from Jimbo I'm going to kick this off by saying that without doubt the image is educational, and is of course not "disgusting". But just as a national newspaper would not put it on their front page, my current opinion is that neither should we.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:38, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - WP:NOTCENSORED. Image is relevant to topic and to the day in question. Let the prudes complain; they'll be back. -LÒÓkingYourBest(Talk|Edits) 14:41, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my earlier explanations and the particular relevance to the day in question adds to the argument for inclusion. Exclusion is POV pushing. By censoring it, we would be advocating for a particular POV. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 14:48, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • In light of the below comments about the day in question... I support posting on a different day but oppose censoring this photo. Barring any featured content from the Main Page, all together, just because it may offend some people, is the antithesis of WP:NOTCENSORED. Constantly relegating some good knowledge to only appear on a less visible page is a form of censorship. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Readers who are actively looking for that type of information can search for it. Those readers who have no interest/idea of that type of information should not be forced feed on the Main Page of Wikipedia. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per my notes above, concerns about maintaining project reputation with world wide readers. — xaosflux Talk 15:16, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as culturally insensitive on a global scale. Notwithstanding WP:NOTCENSORED, per WP:READER, I doubt there's a culture in the world to which that would be a welcome addition to their breakfast-table reading. ——SerialNumber54129 15:19, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as per my earlier comments. Bondegezou (talk) 15:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – per Jimbo: "In all parts of the world, there are images that people under the principle of least astonishment don't expect to pop up on their screen at an encyclopedia without clicking something first...", quoted by xaosflux above. —Bruce1eetalk 15:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. NOTCENSORED does not mean editorial judgment cannot be used when related to things others cannot avoid seeing on the MP. 331dot (talk) 15:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per 331dot and others. Calidum 15:32, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it doesn't bother me one iota, but what would be bothersome would be the complete and utter timesink that would accompany this image's main page publication from anyone who feels obliged to "think of the children". Also, I fail to see why this could possibly be considered a "fuck up" by Amakuru, what tripe. The sooner these kind of things are discussed, the better. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:41, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per most of the above. MB 15:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm uncomfortable with celebrating Intersex Awareness Day by showing a faceless picture of intersex person's pelvic region. I don't think that we'd celebrate Transgender Awareness Week by showing a similar picture of a trans person, so why would we do this for IAD? We have pictures for some intersex people (e.g., Alex Jürgen, Julius Kaggwa, Small Luk, Pidgeon Pagonis, Dan Christian Ghattas, Cheryl Chase (activist)). I don't know if any existing photos meet the POTD criteria, but I'd rather celebrate intersex people as people who have names and faces. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, because this is both educational and fascinating, exactly the sort of information that Wikipedia should be promoting. Some comments are saying, "I'm sure some other people will be offended". Are you personally offended? No: so are you really so certain that many other people will be offended? Most people have been sexually active and are familiar with human genitalia of both sexes (that includes your parents and grandparents!). Those who have not are likely to be more interested than shocked.

    A relevant comparison is that on 21st March 2010 German Wikipedia's front page featured an article on the vulva complete with a "graphic image". There was a lot of discussion beforehand and on the day itself. If Germans were brave enough, can't we be? Jmchutchinson (talk) 16:05, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • Jmchutchinson WHAT MY GRANDPARENTS HAD GENITALIA??? Thanks--I support too, and thanks for the German link. Drmies (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but I don't think this survey is valid. It's framed as if censoring our main page is normal. We haven't censored a featured picture for sexual content alone since 2006. You can't massively, massively misrepresent Wikipedia procedure, misrepresent and misframe the image, then expect a fair survey. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.8% of all FPs 16:36, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not clear on how what you state makes this survey "invalid", as if the opinions of the users here and consensus does not matter. 331dot (talk) 16:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not neutrally framed. There was no chance to discuss the historic importance of the photo. Amakuru is rushing forwards on this in a bizaare manner. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.8% of all FPs 17:17, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The question is about as neutrally framed as is humanly possible. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - A photo clearly focusing on genitalia should not be on the main page. I agree that a photo of an intersex activist may be a better photo for the day, in addition to adding it to OTD. StudiesWorld (talk) 17:05, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The purpose of Intersex Awareness Day is to highlight human rights issues faced by intersex people. I don’t think this picture hits the right tone for that, or in general as lead-in to the topic.--Trystan (talk) 18:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: though I believe it technically passes NOTCENSORED, I agree with WhatamIdoing that it is a pretty offensive, dehumanized, unwholesome way to commemorate Intersex Awareness Day. Liken it to a Pride Month illustration showing naked homosexual men under a similar form of examination. ɱ (talk) 18:39, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Partially per WhatamIdoing. Intersex Awareness Day would be better explained with a picture of an intersex activist, although this image would be perfectly suitable for a related article. If the goal of Intersex Awareness Day is to highlight human rights issues faced by intersex people, I'm not sure this image helps to explain that to the reader. Maybe one of Intersex activists at a rally, or protesting forced medical practices? LetUsNotLoseHearT 19:36, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per principle of least astonishment. Someone going to the article on Intersex would expect and appreciate such a picture. Someone going to the front page of the Wikipedia, likely not so much. --GRuban (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. And because supporters are severely outnumbered (I know Cullen328 opposes it too--don't know if he's been pinged) I'll say support again. I thought about this, and yes, xaosflux and others give a valid reading of jurisprudence and best practice here, but I think this is so educational that it outweighs the cons. Let me put it this way: I see this whole "OH NO THAT DOESN'T EXIST" in all its varieties so often that it think it's high time that the world gets a kick in the rear. Yes, it does exist, yes, humans are born this way. Yes, it is important enough. Yes, I know it's genitalia but get over it. Yes, I know you think the children will be shocked, but I think you're not giving children enough credit--there not yet as set in your ways as you might be. Drmies (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies: As a practical example, the Holocaust Exhibition at the Imperial War Museum London is restricted to children over 14 because it contains upsetting material. That doesn't stop me from me recommending it as absolutely essential viewing. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:58, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Ritchie333, I get your point, but I don't think it's necessarily the same concerns. My children, by the way, have seen the image that is now in Death of Alan Kurdi. I still can't look at that without tearing up; they handle it more easily than I do. Drmies (talk) 00:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping Drimes, I noted above, that if the intersex awareness day article can be made ready, that listing it on OTD for the main page could be an option for education as well - it certainly isn't as in-your-face as that image, but it could garnish main page attention nonetheless. Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 22:09, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the principle of least astonishment should apply here. Explicit pictures usually appear in articles where that is not surprising. Hut 8.5 21:29, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No not so much as I get squeamish at looking at genitalia in the same way other people get squeamish over blood or spiders (it's who I am, deal with it), but because the image does not appear to be particularly good quality and the topic could be illustrated by a more sympathetic and neutral line drawing. If I wanted to put a suitable lead image on our article on masturbation, I wouldn't drop my trousers and knock one out while positioning my phone at ... anyway, I think you get the message. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • With all due respect, this isn't WP:FPC. The principle of double jeopardy should apply here with regard to your image quality comments. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support: WP:NOTCENSORED means not censored. In 2014, we notoriously set precedent that you can arrive at Wikipedia and have the first word you see being "fuck". And now we're saying that you can't have an image of a human being at the bottom of the main page. Readers don't reach the featured picture section of the page unless they're choosing to read the front page. The image is unoffensive, clinical and not particularly graphic—grow up, we've all got genitals—and as Adam Cuerden says, we've set precedent in the area of featuring naked humans in the FP slot as well. Intersex Awareness Day is designed to raise awareness of the existence of intersex people as well as the marginalisation they face, and this image is appropriate for the former purpose. It's frankly quite disgusting to see people using it as a reason to oppose. The more we normalise images like this, the more we normalise intersex people. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to read the essay I quoted above. I am getting fed up of NOTCENSORED being used like a "get out of jail free card" and NEVER about documenting torture, human rights abuse, political imprisonment or anything else that is, well, CENSORED in this world. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ritchie333, NOTCENSORED is about boobs too! No line drawing or painting will teach you what an areola looks like. Or what the frenulum of prepuce of penis looks like. A picture speaks a thousand words. There is no substitute for a good honest photograph. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:02, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ritchie333: I've read the essay and if you want to get Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations to FA status and then nominate it for TFA then I will strongly support its appearance—no doubt to the opposition of a huge chorus of "NOTCENSORED is not a get out of jail free card". If you want to accuse me of being hypocritical in regards to torture, humans rights abuse or political imprisonment then I'll need some diffs. But at the present moment we're talking about a photograph of huge educational importance being featured on a day in which the history of a group of people of which the photo subject is one is being celebrated. And the reason people are opposing is because they want to censor a clinical photo of natural human anatomy. In my book WP:NOTCENSORED applies here. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 06:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bilorv: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "using it as a reason to oppose" - if the "it" you refer to is that the poser in the file is intersex, that isn't what my opposition or many others (in my opinion) is about; I'd have the same response for File:Penis with Labels.jpg for example. — xaosflux Talk 22:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yah, it's a bit of a straw man argument that. Nobody here is prejudiced against intersex people, or trying to deny the need to raise awareness around them. Just that we don't picture closeups of genitals on the MP, regardless of which sex they represent. To me it's a bit strange that this is deemed the best way to promote intersex awareness anwyay. Would we celebrate International Women's Day with a closeup of spread legs and a hairy vulva? Or Black History Month with a detailed photo of an African person's dick? Seems unlikely.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Xaosflux: I thought it was fairly clear that the "it" refers to "Intersex Awareness Day". As in, "It's frankly quite disgusting to see people using Intersex Awareness Day as a reason to oppose showing an intersex person on the Main Page." @Amakuru: never mind a bit of a straw man, it's an entire strawman to apply reductio ad absurdum an argument I didn't make. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 06:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the clarification, that certainly isn't my viewpoint. — xaosflux Talk 11:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think what's telling here is that the main page publication of the image is being positioned as "good for Intersex Awareness Day" but as we can see, even those intersex editors who have contributed here think it's a bad idea. We need to listen, rather than just die on a hill because we feel pissed off that someone made a perfectly valid point a few months in advance of an inevitably "more heat than light" debate. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 17:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I've just read Trankuility's oppose and I'll strike the "strong" from my support in response. But I can't see any other comments from users who have self-disclosed that they are intersex and we shouldn't treat every member of a minority as a spokesperson for that group. I still find the vast majority of opposes wholly unconvincing. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 20:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure you do. But then common sense isn't a requirement. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 20:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your opinion. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ironically, this whole discussion has made me aware that there is an Intersex Awareness Day. So good job there. I think any educational value this picture may have seems to be outweighed by the potential controversy, and conversely, the discussion of this very topic has in and of itself educated me much more than posting a picture to the main page could perhaps accomplish. So I oppose.--WaltCip (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Not bothered about NOTCENSORED or "Think of the children!!" - I just don't really think it's appropriate for the main page. –Davey2010Talk 00:32, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I understand the argument of those that say this image is unsuitable for Intersex Awareness Day and were it a bland modern medical image I would agree. However, reading the background at Hermaphrodite (Nadar), it seems that this set of images is historically important to medical and cultural attitudes and understanding. I suspect that any attempt to pick an good image to mark Intersex Awareness Day will be rather ham-fisted, ill-informed affair, but I think this image in question has merit. However, it is certainly wrong to try to mark it with a "unastonishing", safe, culturally "acceptable" image; those are words I have heard before to excuse attempts to preserve prejudice and to hide people that some would rather not see.
I remember in the eighties seeing two men kiss and hearing people sayIt's fine hidden in private, but you don't expect it in public! After all, We weren't prejudiced against them, but who else might see them? There were children that might see."
And I remember when the most popular evening soap in the UK had a very prominent HIV-positive character. We don't want it shoved down our throats on tea-time TV. Again, We (liberal, educated) know it's important, but all kinds of people watch this."
And I remember hearing that being trans was fine... in the privacy of your own home. And Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And we don't talk about mental illness. And the Down syndrome girl that we'd rather not see. And Section 28. And this, from yesterday.
And today, we want Intersex Awareness Day, but we only if we hide their bodies. Bullshit. It's not about WP:ASTONISH; it's about old-fashioned (well-meaning) liberal hand-wringing that only serves to maintain the status quo of ignorance and prejudice. Put the image on the main page. CIreland (talk) 00:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have no problem with the type of image....but ...it's a horrible visual aid - as in very hard to see due to blurriness - focus of the image. I understand it's historical in nature...but a clear image should be used for educational purposes rather then a historical image. We must have a modern image that is clear? --Moxy 🍁 02:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Let me begin by saying that the image is educational and of historical significance, and I support its inclusion in all relevant articles. I stated my opposition to its use on the Main Page in the section above, but I will expand a bit. I think that the "principle of least astonishment" applies, plus the WP:SOAPBOX section of What Wikipedia is not. There is a big difference, in my view, between using the front page to display 1969 Apollo 11 moon landing content on the 50th anniversary, and actively advocating for sociosexual change (even if I personally embrace and support that change). The only thing that Wikipedia should advocate is free knowledge. We are all individually free to advocate for our preferred causes off-Wikipedia, but not here. Accordingly, I disagree with my friend Drmies when he writes, "it's high time that the world gets a kick in the rear", at least with regards to Wikipedia. Our job is free knowledge, not advocacy and not kicking anyone. Please consider that Sexual intercourse, surely a very important article for young people to read, has no photographs and is illustrated instead by quaint 19th century erotic art. But now we propose to display a photo of intersex genitalia on the main page? Let's try editorial judgment instead. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Doesn't the picture offer "free knowledge"? Isn't the notion that this image needs to be hidden away an argument for making knowledge less free? WanderingWanda (talk) 03:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Including the photo in several relevant articles is not "hiding it away", WanderingWanda. We have something like 54 million media files offering "free knowledge" on Commons. There is no way that more than a tiny percentage of them can ever appear on the Main Page. We are not "hiding away" 53 million plus files. They are freely available. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Cullen328: it's not advocating sociosexual change to follow standard procedure for Featured Pictures and list them as POTD. The value-laden action is to oppose normal procedure from being followed based on the content of the image. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 20:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Bilorv, I have no idea why you feel motivated to make so many comments attempting to refute the legitimate concerns of editors who oppose, but it does not look good in my opinion. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Speaking as an intersex editor, this image is not appropriate for the context (Intersex Awareness Day). For me it is not even a question about nudity, it is that the subject’s face is obscured for privacy reasons, at the same time that genitals are exposed. To share this shortly after Intersex Awareness Day is not only promoting awareness, it is also promoting shame. It is not neutral and should not be used. Thanks Funcrunch for the ping, and thanks WhatamIdoing for making helpful points. Trankuility (talk) 06:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Trankuility: I think we do the history of activism a disservice by ignoring the past. For example, it's not uncommon for media set in the Victorian period to just handwave away the difficulties of being gay, or black, or female then - which ignores all the people who fought hard to make the actual Victorian treatment of such people obsolete. There are, however, pictures in this series showing their face. Also, honestly? I think that for many people, just knowing intersex people exist is a big start to awareness. Many people are unaware. This is a key part of the history of intersex people coming out of the closet, and being identified. Is it modern? No, but it's part of the road that got us here. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 6.8% of all FPs 06:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Trankuility: Thank you for your input. Can I ask if you would feel differently if the image was set to be displayed on a random day, or would you still object? WanderingWanda (talk) 00:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your question WanderingWanda. Medical display and medical fascination with different kinds of bodies has had a powerful impact on the intersex rights movement/patient rights movement and this is covered briefly on the Intersex page. Thank you to Sluzzelin for your comments on this. Relevant papers include:
Dreger, Alice Domurat. 2000. ‘Jarring Bodies: Thoughts on the Display of Unusual Anatomies’. Perspectives in Biology and Medicine 43 (2): 161–72. doi:10.1353/pbm.2000.0002.
Creighton, Sarah, J Alderson, S Brown, and Catherine Minto. 2002. ‘Medical Photography: Ethics, Consent and the Intersex Patient’. BJU International 89: 67–72.
Discussions around these issues have had some impact on medical photography and display in the last decade, but this image predates those discussions. The posture of the person and the positioning of their hand reinforce longstanding concerns about consent and autonomy. Shame, secrecy and silencing are all also issues that have harmful effects on many individuals subjected to intersex medical interventions, and the positioning of the subject's hand reinforce concerns there, too. These are issues that are widespread and so I think that image (and others in the set) will rarely be seen as appropriate by people with intersex conditions, nor by family members. Some people will find the image to be harmful because of the ways that intersex people are treated as subjects without autonomy, and as people with shameful bodies. However, a history of silencing means that a main page image about intersex is a wonderful idea, particularly to mark Intersex Awareness Day. I hope that a different image can be chosen. Trankuility (talk) 03:41, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'd hate to be an intersex person on the day this is featured on the main page. How many editors that are pushing for its inclusion are intersex? Robvanvee 06:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 07:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I was ambivalent on this at first, but I find WhatamIdoing's point convincing and I do not believe a depersonalised image of genitalia is an appropriate way to introduce Intersex Awareness Day. I don't think CIreland's comparison to "keep it in private" moral panics is compelling, particularly when we have an intersex editor above stating their own discomfort with the picture. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 12:02, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest not including (invited by the bot) "Not censored" means that you can find it in Wikipedia if you look, even if it (e.g. a photo of a person and their penis) violates social norms (e.g. for young readers) or laws in some areas. To take something that is the latter and make millions of people / all enwiki visitors involuntarily and not-by-choice see it is a whole different thing. North8000 (talk) 13:11, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @North8000: the Featured Picture section is at the bottom of the Main Page and on essentially any browser or mobile view, the user has to voluntarily scroll down to see it. No-one will be seeing it "involuntarily" and neither all enwiki visitors nor millions will. (The true number of people who read the main page rather than viewing it is a number I don't believe we have access to but I know that, for instance, most DYK hooks get only a few thousand clicks.) — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 20:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The closer is going to have to read the comments and ignore the "support/oppose" word because such has been read two different ways by a lot of participants and has become completely confused. . Variously "Support" exclusion, "Support" inclusion, "Oppose" inclusion, and "Oppose" exclusion. North8000 (talk) 13:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@North8000: As far as I can tell everyone commenting "support" supports inclusion, and everyone commenting "oppose" opposes it. Did you see any comments where this isn't true? —Nizolan (talk · c.) 16:27, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, no real ambiguity here at all. Perhaps be specific if you really believe what you're saying to be true, which editors have mixed it up? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, if you look at the wording, so far I think we just need to realize that everyone consistently got it in reverse from taking it literally. The wording was "are not suitable for POTD. I personally think that's a sensible policy, and I've added the hermaphrodite picture to the unused list,". Literally "Oppose" could mean opposed that thinking and action. North8000 (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? We're all voting on Should the Picture of the Day entry currently at Template:POTD/2019-10-28 be used on the main page on that day?. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 21:02, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What I wrote is what is in the normal place by the RFC template. I missed the new question ~100 lines down under just the "survey" heading Looks like 'nuff said. North8000 (talk) 21:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose using this image. In my opinion, recognizing Intersex Awareness Day by displaying intersex genitals is inappropriate. Trankuility's comments should be taken very seriously. The concerns that any decision to not show them is censorship is either disingenuous or misses the point (and "Let the prudes complain" is a shallow, small-minded comment). Deli nk (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Wikipedia is not censored. This picture might be disturbing for some people. But if we view this picture with an educational eye, it's just a picture. This type of picture doesn't make one a pervert or a person with dirty mind, rather it arises a pervert's imagination. Also in the end, even childrens are going to learn what that is when they grow up if they study biology or have sexual intercourse. Masum Reza📞 13:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose images of genitalia on the main page. It's not a good representation of intersex people (quite demeaning in my view, like they're a lab specimen), and it will offend a lot of readers. NOTCENSORED might apply if we were talking about deleting the image, but it's a red herring when talking about what to put on the main page. – Levivich 14:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this image on the Main Page for Intersex Awareness Day. I'm not offended by the picture, and while I am I suppose 'offended' by the misuse of NOTCENSORED -- NOTCENSORED as Arbcom has said is not a reason 'to do' anything, the Main Page is subject to editorial discretion, and WIKIPEDIA is NOTFREESPEECH - but I would not be opposing just because of the poor NOTCENSORED arguments, rather I am persuaded by the editorial arguments above, opposing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:27, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The POTD is usually just the next FP which has not yet been featured. The "doing anything" here is removing the picture from the queue, whereas the default position is to feature the picture as happens with almost every other picture of the same quality. The reason for removal is editorial discretion, yes, and another way of saying that is "censorship". Editors in opposition are attempting to censor the image based (generally) on the fact that they believe it is too graphic. Censorship isn't necessarily bad and NOTCENSORED isn't an absolute, but it's certainly relevant here. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 20:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. The issue is should Wikipedia editors put this image up for Intersex Awareness Day on the Main Page, which is the stated reason why it is proposed for the Main Page, I and other editors say in the exercise of editorial judgement, we would not. It is our collective judgement, it does not do a good editorial job with the matter (one editor apparently decided it does, other editors are free individually and as a group to disagree, that's a free exercise of editorial judgement). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakest possible oppose inclusion of this image on main page. I agree with those in support that this is a medical and educationally-relevant image, not meant to be titillating or sexual or the like, but at the same time, I'll quote MIB: "A person is smart: people are dumb" - I can see a lot of reactionary complaints if this were to be on the main page given that we have avoided photographic or photo-realistic images of human genitalia before, and we'll be called out as being perverted or the like. Principle of least surprise needs to work on main page as well as other articles. The work is still reeling back from the situation with the conflict with the WMF board on bans and internal fallout from this, we don't need another issue that would rile up readers. I also agree that if we're doing this for celebrating Intersex Awareness Day, there are other images (though not Featured) that do that job without causing a stir, like people at rallies, etc. --Masem (t) 14:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I was hesitant to !vote on this, having already made a comment in the section above that what I'm most interested in are the reactions of actually intersex people, like Trankuility (thank you for weighing in). But I feel this image, however important historically, is dehumanizing and inappropriate if used as a representation of intersex people on the main page of Wikipedia. As a trans person, I would not want to see a photo focusing on the genitals of the person who had the first successful gender confirmation surgery, for example, to be used on the main page to highlight Transgender Visibility Day. It's not about being squeamish or prudish about nudity, it's about respect. Funcrunch (talk) 15:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Wikipedia should not be dramatizing "Intersex Awareness Day" and should not be displaying explicit photographs. We are here to build an encyclopedia. Therefore, the intersex topic should be treated in a thoughtful, factual manner in an encyclopedia page (which users can decide to visit) rather than in everyone's face on the main page. Hlevy2 (talk) 16:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The classic "I'm fine with it but don't shove it in my face." We are here to build an encyclopedia, and the Featured Picture process—which this image has passed through—is a part of that goal, and listing FPs as POTD is a part of that process. — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 20:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I am not persuaded by argument that we shouldn't have a nude picture on the front page: there is nothing bad or shameful about the human body, and Wikipedia should avoid censorship. I am persuaded by the argument that this picture is not a good representation of Intersex Awareness Day. WanderingWanda (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per User:Trankuility and especially per User:Funcrunch who wrote pretty much what I was going to say. On a completely separate point, I'm pretty sure (and I see this is the case above) that I'm not the only person that believes that editors waving the NOTCENSORED flag every time they disagree with something is getting somewhat old. NOTCENSORED is why Commons is a repository of terrible amateur naked selfies and borderline child porn. This project is better than that. Black Kite (talk) 14:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was on the fence. The "principle of least surprise" argument, the way it applies here, is certainly one with which I can empathise, though one that wouldn't convince me not to have a picture posted on the main page, and I prefer we be bold, normally. What I care about most, is how intersex individuals and intersex organisations think about this. We have one intersex editor's well-explained view. I spent some time browsing ISNA's website, also some medical publications. I couldn't find anything directly comparable, but it's very clear that there is a lack of sensitivity among non-intersex people regarding the focus on genitalia of intersex people, even among professionals who should know better. Still really interested in learning more from intersex editors or finding out more from their advocacy groups and organisations. If I misinterpreted and mis-empathised, I will gladly strike my vote. For now, I oppose. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sluzzelin: When intersex professor and advocate Cary Gabriel Costello saw the photo in question in a museum, he wrote "I see exploitation, nonconsent, shame and exposure". Funcrunch (talk) 10:03, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, Funcrunch and Trankuility, for providing more reading material. It reinforces my view that we shouldn't post this on the main page on Intersex Awareness Day. Another quote from Costello's Intersex Roadshow Reports: "I fail to understand why the Metropolitan would include such a shockingly disrespectful image in their collection of nudes–at least, not without discussing how clinical nude photography has been used to marginalize and other and exploit patients with marked bodily differences." The featured picture's caption currently doesn't explain this context either. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:32, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this image appearing on the Main Page. Wikipedia already has ample opportunities to prove that it is WP:NOTCENSORED, and this is not one of them. I would like to see Wikipedia editors acting in a more mature way. Using this image on the main page is likely to be negative for the aims of the project. MPS1992 (talk) 00:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Though I admit I do not speak for this community, I do think we should be more respectful than to show an image like this that may be.. rather hurtful to some. From what I have read, medical photography has been rather traumatic subject to some folks for various reasons that I best not get into. ...I do appreciate that we are at least having a discussion focusing on intersex visibility even if under these.. unique circumstances. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I do rather like the idea of getting our article on Intersex Awareness Day to be of high enough quality to regularly feature it in Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/October 26 Maybe we can even use File:Utrechtpride-intersexboat.jpg to do it! –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 03:00, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Though the image is not likely to reach featured status, I think linking to the Phall-O-Meter might be another way to raise awareness on Intersex Awareness Day. Funcrunch (talk) 03:10, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think that this image is ok. There are arguments that such images represent obsolete medical practices, but there is growing evidence that medical practices remain as invasive today. But my personal preference would be for an image showing people's faces. A couple of examples are included on the Intersex page, including an image from a 2013 event in Malta, and the Dutch boat image mentioned above by WanderingWanda. Trankuility (talk) 03:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mild oppose It does not seem an intersex friendly image for Intersex Awareness Day. I guess it depends on what one sees as the purpose of raising awareness. For me this is missing the point. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 06:00, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. A very borderline decision. It is educational, natural, not disgusting, topical. I am swung to oppose by the poor quality, which I expect to be a redeeming feature for any challenging image. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Wikipedia is NOTCENSORED and most Wikipedia users do not see the Main Page and usually it is spammers who post on the talk page on the Main Page or vandals who vandalize the articles linked or people who accidentally click on the Main Page Abote2 (talk) 10:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Main page attracts over 10 million hits a day. See the Daily article pageviews at the top of this page. —Bruce1eetalk 10:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for Intersex Awareness Day as this image is going to be effective to raise awareness, possibly through controversy, which will raise even more awareness. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with a duty to inform, and this image is effective for this purpose and will be even more so if featured on the front page. --Gerrit CUTEDH 12:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC) I retract my vote for this specific image and I am neutral, we need an image that shows intersex in a respectful way. --Gerrit CUTEDH 14:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia does have a duty to inform; it does not have a duty to astonish.--WaltCip (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since image serve also as souce of infortion passing and causing awarenes in the mind,i support that it should be use properly on the main page but not such an genetia one, for i sorely disagree thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MZEEBETE (talk • contribs)

  • Oppose - I get WP:NOTCENSORED but this is voyeuristic, and entirely inappropriate for Intersex Awareness Day. It just relegates intersex to a matter of genitalia, which is largely incorrect anyway, and it's objectifying - Alison ❤ 23:22, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose- I greatly appreciate that Wikipedia is uncensored and I think that it is an important image, but I am concerned about having it featured on Intersex Awareness Day as it could be interpreted as focusing entirely on genitalia (similar to WhatamIdoing's comments). Again, I do not have any issue with the image itself, but it is just the larger context that gives me some concern. Aoba47 (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I get the NOTCENSORED thing and I understand the arguments in favour. But Alison says it best, just a couple of comments above this one. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This is no more graphic than pictures and images in school textbooks and university textbooks. It does not try and sexualize or fetishize the person, it only presents their genitalia in an unbiased textbook way, there is no artistic sexualization or demonization.--AnotherToast (talk) 21:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am sympathetic to the argument that this image may come off as voyueristic and as reducing intersex persons to their genetalia, especially in the context of featuring the image on Intersex Awareness Day. I get a bit of a feeling of "look at this curiosity" from the image myself (I'm not intersex). I would highly recommend seeking input from intersex people. (At the risk of stating the obvious, they don't have to be regular Wikipedia editors. Contact some advocacy or representation groups.) I think the moral thing to do in a case like this is to give priority to their feelings. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 07:30, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose having it on the main page, but a link to it from the page might be acceptable. Jonathunder (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose having it on the main page. Wikipedia is not censored but we also don't include images merely because they are offensive in order to be "woke" or something. That being said, I have no issue with a depiction of intersex genitalia on the page. But I don't think this particular image is appropriate. -- Rockstonetalk to me! 03:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I mean at this point you'd have to shut it down; you wouldn't want something this controversial as the featured image regardless of any other merits. I mean, what I'm saying, is if you've got scores of people objecting to an image, that alone is sufficient reason to not show the image (unless the objectors are trolls, mentally defective, madmen, or such). The number of objections above is sufficient for me to oppose the image, even if I thought it was otherwise fine. (FWIW there are 10 votes for, 46 against, at this time, which is about 80% oppose... it's quite rare to get 80% agreement on anything here, with >50 participants.)
But anyway, I don't think the image is fine. I also a bad idea on the merits. I could go into detail, but it looks like it's been discussed a lot above already. Herostratus (talk) 03:14, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The image by itself is poor quality and, displayed prominently without the backing of a good article, is prurient. It does not help to explain the cause in who's aid it is associated. It should be in the article and a neutral image used to highlight the suggested topic Leaky caldron (talk) 08:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The image is of very good quality for the period which is why it was voted as a featured photo. The article is also a GA. I have no idea what you are talking about. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 20:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Nothing is being censored, this is an issue of design/branding not censorship. Do we want Wikipedia to be known as a website where genitalia might pop up if you open up the home page? I vote no. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:45, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose its use on October 26 – I think Trankuility, Funcrunch, and Alison have compelling arguments that the use of the image on Intersex Awareness Day would be continuing the treatment of intersex people as targets of voyeurism, and thus not be encyclopaedic in that context; on the other hand, I would support it being in the rotation; the discussion about the usage of the word "fuck" on the front page indicates that NOTCENSORED actually does apply to the main page. I don't feel comfortable with blocking any featured content from the main page as long as said content can be used on the main page in an encyclopaedic way. Sceptre (talk) 01:46, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Following questions on my talk page, I will clarify that I only find the community opposed to using this image as proposed here. My reason is, there were two primary rationales for opposition: 20 people opposed because they believed the image is too graphic for the Main Page per the principle of least astonishment, and 21 opposed because they found the image disrespects its subject (and intersex people more broadly) and would therefore be an inappropriate image to represent Intersex Awareness Day. (This includes four people who opposed on both rationales.) Consequently, either problem alone would have been sufficient to defeat this proposal. Nevertheless, I am unwilling to say that there are any further conclusions regarding consensus to be drawn from this. Quite simply, I am unwilling to say: "There is a consensus that photographs of human genitalia are too graphic for the Main Page" without an RfC dedicated specifically to that question, given how controversial such a finding would be. Meanwhile, the opposition on the grounds that the image objectifies and humilitiates its subject was inextricably linked to the context (a day promoting respect for intersex people), with 15 of 21 people who cited this objection explicitly claiming that the photograph was inappropriate for Intersex Awareness Day. I am not confident that this opposition would exist for other uses of the photograph, and therefore I will not say that there is consensus against ever using this photograph on the Main Page. (A somewhat longer version of this explanation may be viewed here.) —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:53, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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