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Counter vandalism training

I'm not sure if I qualify or not, but I would very much like to be considered for counter vandalism training, if you'll have me. LampGenie01 (talk) 16:47, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

LampGenie01, hi there. I'm sorry not to have replied to you sooner - I'm afraid that this is a very busy time of year for me and I've not had time to log in much over the last week or so. Anyway, thanks for expressing an interest in CVUA training - I certainly appreciate anyone offering to help out with countering vandalism on the site.
So, reviewing your recent contributions, I see the recent discussion with Bbb23 on your talk page. You made some self-reflective comments in the ensuing discussion with Nick Moyes, which I think are to your credit, but before going further I'd like to invite you to consider whether counter-vandalism is genuinely something you want to get involved with. I know almost nothing about you, and so am in no place to make a judgement about you, but purely going on that thread it looked to me like you were quite quick to get upset/annoyed about being called out (albeit grumpily) on a mistake. Counter-vandalism editors inevitably make mistakes, and when that happens we get angry and rude messages from pissed-off but good-faith editors whom we have reverted in error - in that kind of situation, rather than defending our actions or complaining about them being rude, we are expected to defuse the situation by apologising immediately, and profusely. So, my question is simple: is this something that you are confident that you have the temperance for? If the answer is yes, then I'll be happy to take you through the course. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 21:08, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
@Girth Summit: Thank you for getting back to me. Thinking about what has happened since I left the message, I'm not sure whether or not I have the temperament. My plan is to contribute to article maintenance (sourcing, cleanup and the like) for the foreseeable future. No doubt I will come across vandalism in one form or another whilst doing so, so it will give me the chance to see if I'm suited for it. I hope you have a great Christmas LampGenie01 (talk) 11:05, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
LampGenie01, hi again. This is entirely your call, but if you're not sure about it then it's probably better to wait until you are. There are loads of different things one can get involved with to improve the project, and I'd advise anyone only to do stuff that they enjoy. If you decide that you want to do the course at any point in the future, please feel free to drop me a line any time. A very merry Christmas to you too! GirthSummit (blether) 19:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

CVUA Trainer

Hello again! I am coming here to ask you how much edits/how long I need to be on Wikipedia to become a CVUA trainer. I could not find any specific number on the CVUA page. It says experienced, and I think I kind of fit that bill now. I have reported a lot of users to AIV with 100% accuracy, and I usually find time most days to patrol recent changes. I also have the Pending Changes userright now. I haven't come across any edits needing RevDel, but thanks to your course I do know what to do. I would use Callanec's training course, and I have looked at all your CVUA graduates training pages, and also your current students pages now that I am done with the course. In short: I am interested in helping users fight vandalism because there are only two trainers, none of whom have US time zones (which would've been kind of handy with my course), so I would like to know how much longer I should be editing before adding my name to the list. Thank you! Puddleglum 2.0 00:09, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Puddleglum2.0, hi there. I'm sorry for my slow response - this is a busy time of year for me at the best of times, but I've been going through some unpleasant contractual wranglings at work which have been taken up much of my time lately, so I've lost focus on Wiki stuff. Just getting my head back into it now...
So, I'll start out by saying that your enthusiasm to help out does you credit - thanks for raising this. However, while there aren't any clear-cut rules around how much experience is needed, my feeling is that your level of experience probably isn't there just yet. To put it into context, when I became a CVUA trainer, I had been editing actively for about 8 months, and I had made about 10,000 edits - most of them in counter vandalism work. I'm not saying that those are 'minimum figures' or anything, but I think you'd benefit from a bit more experience before embarking on this. It's not that I doubt your ability to do a good job at countering vandalism; it's more that, as you do more work of this kind, you encounter more of the situations that your students might find themselves in, and are better equipped to guide them when they have problems. I won't go into details, but some of my students have been subject to some genuinely threatening kinds of behaviour that almost put them off editing - experience will help you learn how to deal with that sort of thing.
I'm sorry not to be more positive about this, but if this is something that you want to do, there's an easy way to get where you need to be - keep doing what you're doing! Build up a few more months' experience, give me a shout if you ever get into difficulty, and I'd be happy to support you becoming a trainer. In the meantime, think about writing an article or two - as we discussed before, I'd advise you to start with a 'small' subject. For me, it's historic buildings - subjects which are notable, but which don't have vast swathes of literature around them that would take years to read through. Choose something that you are somewhat interested in, but which isn't too close to your heart (which makes it difficult to write objectively). I'd be happy to collaborate with you on something if I can carve out the time - for example, if you want to write a draft of an article, I'd be happy to review it and give you pointers. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 20:31, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you much, it's no problem about the slow reply. I hope I made it clear that I wasn't wanting to become one now, just in the future sometime. I've been thinking about a subject I want to write about, but I still haven't come up with one... Suggestions would be appreciated if you had any! Thanks again, Puddleglum 2.0 20:54, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Puddleglum2.0, yeah, sorry, I should have read your question more closely - I missed the bit about 'how much longer before...'. I'm afraid I don't have a really clear answer on that - it's kind of 'when you feel ready', but of course you can't know what you're likely to encounter and so have no way to judge that! I wish I could give you clearer guidance on that, but the more serious situations I've been involved with are quite personal for the people involved, and I'm not able to disclose any details. So, the best I can do is to suggest you stick at it for perhaps another three months, and/or build up a solid track-record of maybe 5,000 contribs, and then see how you feel?
As for subjects to write about - well, my go-to choice (as you'll see from my user page!) is buildings. To be clear, while I enjoy visiting historic buildings, I am no kind of expert - I'm a geologist by training, and a marine geophysicist (and latterly a teacher) by profession - I just had a 'general interest' level of knowledge about architecture when I started writing these, although the work involved in researching and writing them has expanded my understanding enormously (which is one of the great things about writing articles!) In the UK, we have a register of 'listed buildings', which identifies buildings which have been officially recognised as being historically and/or architecturally significant. They're all automatically notable, and the governmental listing documents (available online) provide enough to write a bare-bones article about them; a web search usually throws up more sources, and I bought a couple of local architectural guides to pad my articles out with more detail.
So, if you want to go down my route, there are two routes we could take:
  • I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing it's the US? I think you have a historic buildings register or similar over there - can you find a building that you'd like to research, but which doesn't have an article? If so, you're good to go - start with its entry on the register, and look for other reliable (and independent - try to avoid using the building's own website, if it has one) sources to build something.
  • Alternatively, referring back to my own area of interest, I'd be happy to point you at a notable Scottish building that has no article, and give you links to some sources that would help you get started. I could then circle back and fill in some blanks with my off-line sources - or suggest some books to refer to if you have access to a good library?
If buildings aren't your thing, no worries - think about something along similar lines. Local geographic landmarks, like mountains or lakes, perhaps, or a historically significant dead person (BLPs are tricky). Try to find a notable, but constrained, subject - something that has been written about a bit, but not so much that you'll have to spend days or weeks reading to get to grips with it all. Going back to the Football article, a subject that large is very difficult to grapple with, the amount of content written about it is entirely unmanageable, and there are thousands of editors interested in the area who will be quick to disagree with you; but if you find a small niche, where you can build yourself into a bit of a local expert, you will find lots of similarly-minded editors willing to help you out. GirthSummit (blether) 21:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks for all that. I would actually love it if you could give me the name of some famous Scottish building, my ancestry is Scottish even though I don't live there. :) Thanks so much for your time and advice! Puddleglum 2.0 00:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Puddleglum2.0 OK, so I've give this a bit of thought, and it's probably best to start of small. My go-to list for 'things to do' is the List of Category A listed buildings in Moray. Moray was a semi-random choice, I've got no personal connection with the area, but it has a lot of interesting history. I've already knocked off most of the churches that were missing articles (and have become fairly conversant with the language of ecclesiastical architecture in the process!), but there are still plenty of loose ends to tie up. Go to the list, and search for 'Little Cross' - it's about two thirds of the way down the list. It's exactly what the name suggests - a little cross - but it's 200+ years old, with some apparently mediaeval carvings on it, and as a Category A listed building it's guaranteed to be notable. I did a quick search for sources, and found the following: Historic Environment Scotland; Canmore; Gazetteer for Scotland; Scotland's Places; Elgin Through Time. That should be enough for you to put together something decent - I've got a few books that I expect it's mentioned in, so if you write it I could try to expand it based on those later on. If you want a template to base the article on, you could take a look at Duke of Gordon's Monument - that was the first article I ever wrote from scratch, and the subject is similar in that it's a significant monument, but there probably isn't too much to say about it. This should be a manageable first project - let me know if you're interested. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 19:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Fantastic, I think I'll get started on that! Thank you so much for your help! Puddleglum 2.0 20:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy holidays


Andrew Base (talk) is wishing you Happy Holidays! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user Happy Holidays, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

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Andrew Base (talk) 09:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Cheers

Merry Christmas, Girth Summit!
Or Season's Greetings or Happy Winter Solstice! As the year winds to a close, I would like to take a moment to recognize your hard work and offer heartfelt gratitude for all you do for Wikipedia. And for all the help you've thrown my way over the years. May this Holiday Season bring you nothing but joy, health and prosperity. Onel5969 TT me 11:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

New Page Review newsletter December 2019

A graph showing the number of articles in the page curation feed from 12/21/18 - 12/20/19

Reviewer of the Year

This year's Reviewer of the Year is Rosguill. Having gotten the reviewer PERM in August 2018, they have been a regular reviewer of articles and redirects, been an active participant in the NPP community, and has been the driving force for the emerging NPP Source Guide that will help reviewers better evaluate sourcing and notability in many countries for which it has historically been difficult.

Special commendation again goes to Onel5969 who ends the year as one of our most prolific reviewers for the second consecutive year. Thanks also to Boleyn and JTtheOG who have been in the top 5 for the last two years as well.

Several newer editors have done a lot of work with CAPTAIN MEDUSA and DannyS712 (who has also written bots which have patrolled thousands of redirects) being new reviewers since this time last year.

Thanks to them and to everyone reading this who has participated in New Page Patrol this year.

Top 10 Reviewers over the last 365 days
Rank Username Num reviews Log
1 Rosguill (talk) 47,395 Patrol Page Curation
2 Onel5969 (talk) 41,883 Patrol Page Curation
3 JTtheOG (talk) 11,493 Patrol Page Curation
4 Arthistorian1977 (talk) 5,562 Patrol Page Curation
5 DannyS712 (talk) 4,866 Patrol Page Curation
6 CAPTAIN MEDUSA (talk) 3,995 Patrol Page Curation
7 DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 3,812 Patrol Page Curation
8 Boleyn (talk) 3,655 Patrol Page Curation
9 Ymblanter (talk) 3,553 Patrol Page Curation
10 Cwmhiraeth (talk) 3,522 Patrol Page Curation

(The top 100 reviewers of the year can be found here)

Redirect autopatrol

A recent Request for Comment on creating a new redirect autopatrol pseduo-permission was closed early. New Page Reviewers are now able to nominate editors who have an established track record creating uncontroversial redirects. At the individual discretion of any administrator or after 24 hours and a consensus of at least 3 New Page Reviewers an editor may be added to a list of users whose redirects will be patrolled automatically by DannyS712 bot III.

Source Guide Discussion

Set to launch early in the new year is our first New Page Patrol Source Guide discussion. These discussions are designed to solicit input on sources in places and topic areas that might otherwise be harder for reviewers to evaluate. The hope is that this will allow us to improve the accuracy of our patrols for articles using these sources (and/or give us places to perform a WP:BEFORE prior to nominating for deletion). Please watch the New Page Patrol talk page for more information.

This month's refresher course

While New Page Reviewers are an experienced set of editors, we all benefit from an occasional review. This month consider refreshing yourself on Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features). Also consider how we can take the time for quality in this area. For instance, sources to verify human settlements, which are presumed notable, can often be found in seconds. This lets us avoid the (ugly) 'Needs more refs' tag.

Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 16:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

2 more sleeps - Ho, Ho, Ho!!

🔔🎁⛄️🎅🏻 Atsme Talk 📧 17:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Girth Summit, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020.
Happy editing,
Hope the year felt like it went well, and have some great holidays and 2020! Nosebagbear (talk) 14:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Happy Holidays

Hello Girth Summit: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, DBigXrayᗙ Happy Holidays! 18:33, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

Seasons Greetings

Merry Christmas
To you and your family...Merry Christmas. Whispyhistory (talk) 00:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

Hello Girth Summit: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Donner60 (talk) 08:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

Kutrigurs

Hi Girth

Would it be possible for you to bring your adminly powers to bear on Kutrigurs? I watchlist it because it is a common target of ethnic PoV editors with their own ideas of whether the Kutrigurs were Turks or not. Usually drive by IPs go away when they discover that there is resistance to their unilateral edits, and certainly they don't want to argue their case with sources on the talk page. I am about to use my third revert and the article could perhaps use a neutral, outside once over.

Oh, and merry Christmas. Could you think of this as a belated Christmas present?

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:36, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Gog the Mild Merry Christmas to you too - apologies for the slow response, I've been doing a tour of friends and family across Scotland, haven't had any time to log in over the last few days. I'm back at home now though, catching up with what's been going on around here.
I took a look at Kutrigurs - it looks like the issue has been solved for now, with Jingiby and Vif12vf reverting the IP, which has now been blocked by Galobtter - so, it doesn't look like there's any further action necessary at the moment, but I'll watchlist the page as well - if the IP continues in the same vein when the block expires I'll reblock, but if other IPs show up some form of page protection may be necessary.
I'm going to head over to MMG once I've caught up on messages (I'm not sure I've ever had my 'notifications' symbol in double figures before...), and take a look at your copy edit suggestions. Cheers! GirthSummit (blether) 11:54, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Suggestion

Unfortunately, Andrew Base has been blocked for sock puppetry. I was thinking you should consider removing him from the graduates at Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Academy/Instructors. Interstellarity (talk) 13:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

(shocked talk page watcher) Wow, I looked into the matter a tad and was a bit surprised at the block! I've seen them around, and while they certainly made some problematic errors, I never suspected they would be a sockpuppet. Saddening. Ah well, thanks Interstellarity for posting this, it was certainly an interesting look-through. Puddleglum 2.0 05:29, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Interstellarity Hi, and thanks for bringing this to my attention. Disappointing though this is, I'm not aware of any precedent or requirement for him to be removed from my list of trainees I've taken through the program - it's not like his being on that list confers any kind of privilege that needs to be revoked, it's just part of the history of his account (and mine) - his account has been blocked, I think that's all that needs to happen at the moment. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 11:57, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Trouted

Hi Mr Summit, About four months ago, I wrote a prepared article about the Commission scolaire des Hauts-Bois-de-l'Outaouais. You made a comment about it, saying that it look copied or pasted from somewhere else. The article was later refused. It was not copied or pasted. I worked 17 years at the Commission scolaire des Hauts-Bois-de-l'Outaouais (litterally the Ottawa's Upper Woods School Board) and I knew it inside and out. The aarticle was an original creation. I usually make contributions about French-related articles on the English language Wikipedia. Personnaly, I'm a French-Canadian from the province of Québec (with some admixture of Scottish, more specifically an ancestor that came from Brechin...). Frankly, I don't know what to do. What can I do to reverse the decision that was taken about the proposed article? Is there a way out? Thank you for answering me and a good Christmas to you. Charles Millar (Charles.millar2) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles.millar2 (talk • contribs) 04:11, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Charles.millar2, Hi there, thanks for reaching out. So, the version of the article that I tagged is here. As you can see, a chunk of text is repeated over and over again, in a way that looks a lot like copy/pasting. However, as you will see from the article history, the article was not rejected - it's still viewable here - Commission scolaire des Hauts-Bois-de-l'Outaouais - it's just that it has been translated into English (this is the English-language version of Wikipedia, after all!), and some other editors have made improvements. I'm not sure what you are asking me to do at this point? I should draw your attention to our COI guidelines however - if you worked for this organisation for 17 years, it would probably be worth you familiarising yourself with these, especially if you still have any connections at all with them. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 13:47, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy Holidays


DoebLoggs (talk) is wishing you Happy Holidays! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user Happy Holidays, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Happy holidays}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

--DoebLoggs (talk) 11:02, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

DoebLoggs, thanks - and the same to you and yours! GirthSummit (blether) 13:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Answer for the great feedback // Chris Rygh Wiki page

Hi Girth,

I would like to say thank you for your kind and superfast feedback to Chrystopher Rygh's Wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Christopher_Rygh). I have updated all of the references according to your feedback. Please let me know if you need more details or anything else to validate this page.

Have a lovely evening, Tunde0723 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tunde0723 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Tunde0723, hi, and you're welcome - thanks for dropping by. So, the next thing you should look at doing is adding some inline citations, showing which of your references supports each assertion. If you look at any Wikipedia article, you'll see lots of little blue numbers next to assertions, which link to the sources - that's what I'm talking about. You can use the 'Cite' tool above the editing window to add them. That will make it clearer for the next reviewer to check the information in the article is properly sourced. Cheers, and happy new year when it comes GirthSummit (blether) 19:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Death of User:AryanTheArticleArtist

Hi I would like to let you know that I am Aryan’s sister Aditi and that my brother passed away on 3rd April. He told me that he edited Wikipedia but I never believed it. I recently discovered that editing Wikipedia is possible. I am letting you know because Aryan always told me that Girth Summit was the best editor he met on Wikipedia. 2402:3A80:A18:82B9:5E4:AA54:957E:1456 (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Aditi. Thank you for letting me know - I noticed that he hadn't edited recently, I hadn't realised that was the reason. Please accept my condolences, I am very sorry for your loss. GirthSummit (blether) 13:38, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year!
Girth Summit,
Have a great 2020 and thanks for your continued contributions to Wikipedia.

   – 2020 is a leap year – news article.
   – Background color is Classic Blue (#0F4C81), Pantone's 2020 Color of the year

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2020}} to user talk pages.

– Utopes (talk) 04:35, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Population of Jews by Country

The first table in this entry was only partially visible, country names and colored blocks. I attempted to bring notice to it. After having my notice reverted, I went back. I believe all the information is now showing, but the formatting has problems. Thanks Cjurkoshek (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Cjurkoshek, I can't see anything wrong with the formatting myself, can you be more specific about what you think is wrong? GirthSummit (blether) 10:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I am hoping you can see this image of the problem. Nope. The table is not stable and when I can see parts of it, that’s all that’s there, parts. I can’t show you and I don’t know how to fix it. I’m sorry. Thank you.

Cjurkoshek (talk) 05:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Cjurkoshek, I'm afraid not - the table appears fine to me. It might be something to do with your browser? I'd suggest that you put a message on the talk page there, describing the problem that you're having - someone else might be able to see the same issue, and try to fix it. I'm afraid that since I can't see anything wrong with it, I don't know how to go about fixing it. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 12:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

A Dobos torte for you!

7&6=thirteen (☎) has given you a Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.


To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

See Warren Zevon - Trouble & Lawyers, Guns and Money - David Letterman Show], 1988 April 14, 2011 via YouTube. Happy New Year! 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:34, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

7&6=thirteen, and to you - thank for the link, I'll take a look. GirthSummit (blether) 17:59, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I've fixed the {{u}} template use above to prevent the '=' character in the user's name from messing with the template's parameters numbering. --CiaPan (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
CiaPan, thanks! Thought it looked a bit strange... GirthSummit (blether) 18:20, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
When I post I typically follow. The video (hey, it's from BetaMax I think) is of an awesome performance. I can't remember Letterman's band leader, but he clearly was having fun at the piano.  7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:07, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Did you get that ping, just out of interest? Doesn't look like reply helper likes your username! GirthSummit (blether) 18:12, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't know. Band leader is Paul Shaffer. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – January 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2019).

Guideline and policy news

Arbitration

  • The fourth case on Palestine-Israel articles was closed. The case consolidated all previous remedies under one heading, which should make them easier to understand, apply, and enforce. In particular, the distinction between "primary articles" and "related content" has been clarified, with the former being the entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted rather than reasonably construed.
  • Following the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: Beeblebrox, Bradv, Casliber, David Fuchs, DGG, KrakatoaKatie, Maxim, Newyorkbrad, SoWhy, Worm That Turned, Xeno.

Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - January 2020

Delivered January 2020 by MediaWiki message delivery.
If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an N to the column against your username on the Project Mainpage.

22:48, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Atherton

Hello! I am pretty sure that we are dealing with issues of autobiography over at Paul Atherton and COIN, but cannot exactly put my finger on it. It really feels like we are being gamed. Might it be a weak case of WP:NOTHERE. I was wondering what you thought outside of these venues. Pinging @HouseOfChange: for their thoughts also.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

ThatMontrealIP, as I said at the noticeboard, I share the concerns. However, having had lengthy discussions with the user, and having edited the page in question, I'm involved from an administrative perspective; the CU data from the old account won't be retained, and the stuff on commons is cross-wiki so there's nothing for an EnWiki CU to do. The CU I spoke to didn't think that the evidence would be strong enough to get a steward involved. The thread at COIN doesn't seem to be going anywhere - I'm not a frequent flier there, I don't really know how things usually go down, but I don't really know what to suggest other than keeping an eye on the page, making sure that no more random trivia and dubious sourcing is added to it, and returning to COIN/ANI as appropriate if problems crop up. GirthSummit (blether) 08:50, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Hostile

The editor has been openly hostile for a while now. It started when the editor suggested that my keep !vote should be tossed (this was an article I started). Maybe started before that comment, however that is just when I noticed. The editor directed me and others to his talk page and when I questioned him, he made me wait a whole day before letting loose an overly detailed list of his opinions. I asked him to strike his attack on four !voters - and he did not. Next I went back to his talk page and he posted more tedium and allowed an image which is meant to mock WP:ARS. Serial Number 54129 has perhaps been just as hostile. My attempts at communication with that editor are usually met with even more hostility - last night I sttempted again, and the editor erased my attempt, and then pinged you to the talk page of the lake article. Lev used to be one of the editors I looked up to, but now he has fixated on his dislike of the ARS. He calls it a brigade, and publicly calls for the !votes to be stricken. Makes accusations of canvassing and block !voting at AfDs. I called him an "axe grinder" because he has been. Is that the personal attack you wanted me to strike?

The reason this Lake AfD was a rolling sh&^ show is the anti ARS editors crashed the AfD - and they are presently warring the article - Doncram was not one of the Anti-Ars editors, however his methods have contributed to this sh*& show. Congrats on your new administrator role. Lightburst (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Lightburst, just a brief courtesy reply - you've presented a lot of links there, I'm on mobile at the moment, but I will read through them and respond properly. There's obviously a lot of bitterness built up on both sides of this, and I'd like to try and resolve that somehow. You are right though - calling someone an ace grinder is a PA, even if you think it's accurate (I mean, there are a few editors who I think are narrow-minded pedantic fuckwits, and I could provide evidence to support my view, but I don't call them that.) GirthSummit (blether) 17:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
thanks Lightburst (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I struck the Axe Grinder comment. Here is an example of the kind of PA that I get from the other side, and does not result in any raised eyebrows. And this. But I digress...in any event I have struck the comment and will bite my tongue in the future.
Lightburst Thanks for striking that. I don't know why you feel that the ones directed at you didn't raise eyebrows - in the first link, a number of admins were pretty clear that it was a PA and unacceptable; the comment at your second link was followed shortly afterwards by a direct, unambiguous warning from an admin that another similar comment would result in an immediate block. I don't know if you think that the users should have been blocked on the spot, but both were told pretty clearly to knock it off. GirthSummit (blether) 09:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
There were no demands to strike the second one - never was struck. And the first brought out all the usual suspects (anti-ars types) to tell me I was wrong. But I got your point and understand. I think you might take a look at this case to see that Doncram's behavior is repeating in regard to Brown County lakes. Lightburst (talk) 14:20, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Lightburst, sorry, I overlooked this reply. Just to tie up the loose end - you're right, the second attack was never removed, and maybe it should have been; nevertheless, the editor was left with no doubt as to what would happen if they repeated an attack like that.
A wise man once told me that opprobrium is, or should be, a more effective tool than sanctions when it comes to civility issues amongst good faith editors. An apology (or strike) extracted under the threat of a block has very little value - you don't know whether the person is genuinely sorry, or is just saying what they have to say because of the threatened sanctions. I hoped that, by telling you that I thought your comment was a bit of a low blow, you'd remove it yourself without the need for any kind of threat - I was glad that you did so.
As for that Arbcom case you link to - I'll put that on my reading list too. I've been given a lot of links to historic cases since I got involved in your ANI thread - more than I've got time to digest quickly. GirthSummit (blether) 18:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! Lightburst (talk) 14:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Lightburst Returning to your initial comment in this thread, I've read through those links now. I've been mulling this over this afternoon, and I'm not really able to reply concisely - apologies, therefore, for the following wall of text.
In my experience, hostility leads to more hostility, and it ratchets up quickly. People joining a discussion which is already hostile are likely to carry on in the same vein, and trying to get the level of hostility to go back down is very difficult indeed. As a starting point, if we examine one of the discussions you linked me to, I wonder whether you'd be willing to reflect on your own comments? I don't suggest this because I think this is all your fault - it's just sometimes useful to look at things from the other perspective, as it can give you some insight into the way people might respond.
When I look at the AfD you linked me to, I see what seems to be a neutral nomination - it's not disparaging the author (you), it's just saying that the nominator interprets our guidelines as saying that we shouldn't have an article about this person. I'm not saying I agree with them, but it's not a ridiculous or vindictive nomination (unless there is a history that I'm unaware of). Now, I'm fortunate in that nobody has ever nominated anything I wrote for deletion, but I imagine that it would be annoying after you've put a lot of work into something, and so I can appreciate that you probably wrote your keep !vote while in a defensive or annoyed frame of mind. Nevertheless, let's break down what you said:
  • WP:GNG is easily met with multiple WP:RSs. That's fair enough - a clear argument to keep.
  • The nominator ignores our guidelines for WP:N and WP:V This is personalising it - you're phrased in a way that is critical of the nominator, rather than neutrally addressing their arguments. It's also not really true - the nominator's appeal was (in part) to PERP, which is part of our WP:N guidelines - they weren't ignoring them, they were directly referencing them, it's just that you don't think that they have interpreted them correctly. It would have been better for you to simply explain why PERP didn't apply here.
  • and makes a vague wave at a WP:BLP1E claim which clearly does not apply... The 'vague wave' bit is pretty disparaging, and you don't actually explain why it doesn't apply.
  • I am sure the nominator knows that WP:BLP2E does not exist. This feels rather sarcastic - the sentence does nothing to strengthen your argument, it's just snark towards the nominator.
  • The rationale seems to be someone didn't like it before, so WP:IDONTLIKEIT now. This is just disparaging the argument, rather than addressing it.
  • FYI: The subject was world famous for her medical condition, and then again world famous for her crime. We keep articles which meet the heavier burden of WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. See: Juli Briskman AfD which I argued against keeping - I was wrong. Jennifer Mee has been in the news more than 10 years with WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. She has received international coverage in reliable sources. This is an easy keep. This is all good - you're providing reasons why the article should be kept (but adding FYI at the beginning seems only to convey a slight element of extra snark).
Can you see what I mean? We're already in a hostile environment after the first keep vote. The subsequent keeps didn't improve matters - 'time waster', 'WP:Before was violated', 'yet again' - all of this is snark, which doesn't enhance the keep rationale, and serves only to tell the nominator that they were dumb. I realise that this is often par for the course at AfD, but when you look at it altogether, the level of hostility is pretty shocking.
I realise this is already a massive wall of text, so I won't put any more thoughts down or make any suggestions until you've indicated whether you're actually interested in pursuing this conversation, but I'd like to know your thoughts if you care to give them. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 14:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
It certainly works to hear it from an uninvolved party. It is difficult to take suggestions from involved parties. Thanks for your rationale assessment. Lightburst (talk) 14:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Lightburst I think you've hit the nail on the head right there - it's hard to take advice from people who are involved, and even harder to take criticism from someone once hostilities have started.
It's no secret that Levivich and I get along well - we wrote an article together from scratch, and have often had discussions on talk pages - I am in no doubt that he is here for the right reasons. I haven't interacted with you so much, but when I look over your contributions, I come to the same conclusion. I spend a lot of my time reverting sheer, unambiguous vandalism, and so I'm all too well aware that there are plenty of people out there who actively try to destroy the work we do here - it gets me down when I think that people who devote so much of their time to the improvement of the project find it difficult to do so amicably - I keep saying it, but we literally are all on the same side!
It seems to me that what is happening is that he has some concerns about the way the ARS group sometimes intervene at AfD, but he has expressed them in such a way as to make it understandably difficult for you to hear them and consider them dispassionately - that's unfortunate. If I had a magic 'dissolve all bad blood' wand, I would wave it so that the two of you could have a constructive discussion about those concerns. It might be that if you better understood his perspective, and he better understood yours, you might both find that there is merit in what each of you is saying, and that you are able to find a way to work towards our common goals without falling out over the nitty gritty. GirthSummit (blether) 14:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

St. Peter's Church (Queenstown, Maryland)

Thank you for all your work on St. Peter's Church (Queenstown, Maryland). I have always thought that reviewers are underappreciated and their tasks are difficult. I certainly appreciate all your work, and will use this church as a template if I ever do another one. Cheers! TwoScars (talk) 16:18, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

TwoScars, you're welcome - it was enjoyable going through the process, and learning more about the very interesting subject matter. If you do get chance to visit the church in the summer, I think the article would benefit from some pictures of the interior - but that's not something to stand in the way of its GA status. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 16:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

About deletions in the article Los Alcázares (Spanish municipality)

Good evening, Girth Summit,

An user deleted more than one time a concrete fact about the Spanish municipality of Los Alcázares in this article. The fact is that the 'blue flag' (a symbol which denotes the quality of the water for having a bath) has been removed in its beaches, that there is a very high level of pollution in the sea of Los Alcázares and some politicians are taken to court because of this. The town is next to a salty coastal lagoon that has been very polluted in the last decades, and some years ago the level of pollution was so high that having a bath in the sea became not being a good idea.

I contacted to user and told the same as I will tell to you, but there is not any response.

I will expose the content the user has deleted, its sources, several sentences in the sites that prove the information deleted, its translation to English and the page of Google translator as a evidence of what I am telling.

First content deleted: "However, all beaches in Los Alcazares have now been stripped of their Blue Flag Status since 2017 due to local pollution, warnings of which have gone ignored for 18 years by local government."

https://www.laverdad.es/murcia/otros-municipios/menor-queda-banderas-20190508005834-ntvo.html

Sentences: "El Mar Menor se queda este verano otra vez calvo de banderas azules en sus playas. " – Translation: "The Mar Menor stays this summer again bald (figurative word in Spanish) with blue flags on its beaches."

"Los Álcazares se queda sin un solo reconocimiento." – Translation "Los Álcazares is left without a single recognition."

https://translate.google.es/?hl=es#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&tl=en&text=El%20Mar%20Menor%20se%20queda%20este%20verano%20otra%20vez%20calvo%20de%20banderas%20azules%20en%20sus%20playas.%0A%0ALos%20%C3%81lcazares%20se%20queda%20sin%20un%20solo%20reconocimiento.


Second content deleted: "In July 2016 pollution in the Mar Menor was reportedly so severe as to render the area close to ecological collapse, following 18 years of neglected warnings. The public prosecutor's office is investigating allegations of negligence against the relevant authorities, which are governed by the conservative People's Party."

Source: https://elpais.com/politica/2016/06/15/actualidad/1466007368_066035.html

Sentences: "El Mar Menor, al borde del colapso" – Translation: "The Mar Menor, on the verge of collapse"

" Pero la reacción llega 18 años después de los primeros avisos." Translation: "But the reaction comes 18 years after the first warnings"

Source: https://www.laverdad.es/lospiesenlatierra/blog/menor-nombres-apellidos-20171215135447-nt.html

Sentences: "CASO MAR MENOR: 37 NOMBRES Y APELLIDOS. La denuncia de la Fiscalía por la degradación de la laguna, sólida y con documentación abrumadora, revela una dejación total de la labor de control de los vertidos agrícolas por parte de la administración. Y una complicidad con el sector agrario 'regada' con desprecio hacia el medio ambiente y el bien común"

Translation: "MINOR SEA CASE: 37 NAMES AND SURNAMES. The complaint of the Prosecutor for the degradation of the lagoon, solid and with overwhelming documentation, reveals a total abandonment of the work of control of agricultural discharges by the administration. And a complicity with the agricultural sector 'watered' with contempt for the environment and the common good"

https://translate.google.es/?hl=es#view=home&op=translate&sl=es&tl=en&text=El%20Mar%20Menor%2C%20al%20borde%20del%20colapso%0A%0APero%20la%20reacci%C3%B3n%20llega%2018%20a%C3%B1os%20despu%C3%A9s%20de%20los%20primeros%20avisos%0A%0ACASO%20MAR%20MENOR%3A%2037%20NOMBRES%20Y%20APELLIDOS.%20La%20denuncia%20de%20la%20Fiscal%C3%ADa%20por%20la%20degradaci%C3%B3n%20de%20la%20laguna%2C%20s%C3%B3lida%20y%20con%20documentaci%C3%B3n%20abrumadora%2C%20revela%20una%20dejaci%C3%B3n%20total%20de%20la%20labor%20de%20control%20de%20los%20vertidos%20agr%C3%ADcolas%20por%20parte%20de%20la%20administraci%C3%B3n.%20Y%20una%20complicidad%20con%20el%20sector%20agrario%20'regada'%20con%20desprecio%20hacia%20el%20medio%20ambiente%20y%20el%20bien%20com%C3%BAn


https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Los_Alc%C3%A1zares&type=revision&diff=908914736&oldid=908914658

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Los_Alc%C3%A1zares&type=revision&diff=908914782&oldid=908914737

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CLCStudent#Why_did_you_delete_Los_%C3%81lcazares_article_editions_about_its_beaches?

I thank the time you spend in this issue.

Regards,

--Yolanda95 (talk) 21:53, 6 January 2020 (UTC)Yolanda95

P.S.: I contacted another administrator before contacting you, but I have been totally ignored.

Hi Yolanda95 - I'm sorry you've been ignored by these other users. Certainly, your edits should not have been reverted without edit summaries, they should have explained their actions. However, looking at the links you gave me, your assertions seem to be unsourced. Do you know how to add a citation (using the 'Cite' tool above the editing window is easiest). If you cite a reliable source, patrollers will be less concerned about it. I haven't checked the sources you referred to here yet, but if they are reliable, and support your assertions, your edit shouldn't be reverted. I'm about to go to bed now, but I'll look into this further tomorrow, and might reach out to the other users involved. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 22:36, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi again Yolanda95 - looking at the diffs you provided, I see that they were made by an IP address - having re-read your comments, it's not clear whether this was yourself, editing while logged out, or if you perhaps just noticed these edits that came from someone else? It doesn't make a huge difference either way - if it was you, it doesn't look like you were editing while logged out to avoid scrutiny, I just want to try to understand the situation. I've looked at your refs, and what you are saying appears to be correct - if citations were provided, I'm sure you could add something about this to the article. It would be better though to revise the whole paragraph, so that perhaps we say that they have previously been awarded blue flag status, but that has been rescinded due to issues with pollution. (The statement about the promenade being 'worth visiting' should definitely be removed - we should never have statements like that in any article, per WP:NOTGUIDE and WP:NOTPROMO.) Let me know if you need assistance with adding the refs. GirthSummit (blether) 08:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Good afternoon Girth Summit Sorry that I didn't answer before - During these days I wasn't devoting time to English Wikipedia. The person who edited Los Alcázares and whose information is removes is not me and I always use my account when I type in Wikipedia.

The fact is that I complete articles about Region of Murcia (the region of Spain where Los Alcázares is located) for spells on and off. One day I accessed Los Alcázares article and noticed that there were some deletions during not a long spell of time. I checked them and considered them unfair. I do not edit about information that has been deleted because it will probably cause an edit warring, so I prefer to contact the user who has deleted the content or an administrator.

The sources are two newspapers: El País (in Spain area), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Pa%C3%ADs and La Verdad, about Region of Murcia [1]

Regards,

--Yolanda95 (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)Yolanda95

Yolanda95, don't worry - it wouldn't be considered an edit war for you to reinstate the material now, you have found sources to back up the assertions (plus I spoke to the person who originally reverted, and explained that they shouldn't have done so). GirthSummit (blether) 18:17, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Girth Summit I have just added the information to the article and show that in the Talk section. Thank you very much for the time you devoted to this issue and your assistance and help. :)

--Yolanda95 (talk) 20:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)Yolanda95

Shashi Tharoor

Hi there...I seem to regularly revert here...strange goings on...can you check please? Whispyhistory (talk) 08:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Whispyhistory, hi - it does appear to attract quite a lot of attention from IP vandals. I've applied semi protection for a week, since the last few days seem to have been particularly intense - if it resumes after that let me know, some longer-term protection may be warranted. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 08:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks...I'm not even sure if the content in the article is correct...your action appears quite reasonable. Have a nice day. Whispyhistory (talk) 08:42, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

thanks for help

thanks for your assistance and input just now. please feel free to convey any points, guidance, items, you may wish. I appreciate your help. --Sm8900 (talk)

It will likely be easier for you to give that guidance if you put Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council on your watchlist for a while. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, done. It's not a page I've ever looked at before, but I'll try to keep up! GirthSummit (blether) 20:12, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing having said that, my watchlist is around the 20,000 pages mark, thanks to CV work. If there's anything you want me to look at, I'm never averse to a ping.
I gave up on my watchlist several years ago. I open it about once a month, and I've been slowly trimming (mostly user pages) when I do that. The WP:NAVPOPS unwatch option has been useful. The ultimate problem is that the pages that interest me most tend not to be quiet ones. I could cut my watchlist down to 1,000 pages and still have several hours of work to do each day. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, thanks, I might have a play with navpops. I'd been hoping that something might come of the wishlist proposal for temporary additions to watchlists - then I'd just clear mine out entirely and start from scratch, that would be a lot more manageable then pruning it. Doesn't look like that will go anywhere though :( GirthSummit (blether) 10:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Community Tech spent so long working on the NPPers' wish that everything else has been delayed. AFAICT they still expect to do something useful with m:Community Wishlist Survey 2019/Watchlists/Watchlist item expiration. Are you hoping to be able to set a default of "remove after 90 days [unless I change the setting]", and then have a more manageable overall size, with the contents continuously changing? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, exactly - but I'd probably just go for 'remove after 3 days' or similar 95% of the time. I do a lot of recent changes patrolling - if I revert vandalism on a page, it's useful to have it watchlisted for a while since they're commonly attacked again after the first instance, but within a few days the situation is usually resolved (either with blocks or protection), and I am unlikely to have any further interest in watching it. There's probably only a few hundred pages that I actually want to watch permanently, so deleting the lot and starting from scratch seems like a much less painful approach than going through 20,000 pages of Twinkle hangover, even it it's just one click per page. GirthSummit (blether) 18:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) FWIW, I delete my entire watchlist every few months. It helps me focus on just what I really care about, rather than getting overly-attached to pages or disputes. – Levivich 19:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Girth, I've been using [[this script for a bunch of things including returning to pages that I won't be using anymore. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Barkeep49, thanks, I'll take a look. GirthSummit (blether) 18:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
If you make a list of the couple hundred pages you want to watch long-term (off wiki for privacy), you can edit the raw watchlist to blank everything, and then paste in the few that you want at any time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, that's a pretty good suggestion actually - I'll think about doing that, cheers. GirthSummit (blether) 20:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Living People: date of birth

Hi...date of birth was added. Noted that same IP editor did a few others articles. Can you have a look? Whispyhistory (talk) 14:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Whispyhistory, odd. I've reverted their edits, which were all unsourced (and sometimes contradicted by sources) and given a warning. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 14:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thanks for telling that my articles have been deleted.

My friend was using my account so he might have done that. Sorry for troubling you. Kind regards, Amaan0123 

Amaan.S (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Amaan0123 Please read WP:NOSHARING - you are not permitted to allow anyone else to edit under your account. Does your friend still have access to it - do they know the password? GirthSummit (blether) 16:33, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
My friend doesn't have access to my password, he was using my computer so he did that. Sorry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amaan0123 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Amaan0123 OK - just be aware that you are responsible for any edits made using your account, and if it is suspected that someone else has access to it your account may be blocked as WP:COMPROMISED. Do not allow anyone else to use your computer while you are logged into your account. GirthSummit (blether) 11:14, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Cragend Silo and Weighbridge

Hello again, So sorry its been a long time but in between all this talk we have veen repairing the Silo and running our farm. I now have a small window of a few months to get my head back around how to use this system. We thank you very much for all your help in geting the information up on wikipedia. I am unclear how to add some better photos which we now have but perhaps you can help me please? Can I email them to you somehow or can you talk me through how to do it. I am not on this all the time you see only when I have a moment. Thank you again for getting us on the site. If ever in northumberland please do call in , Best wishes Lou Renwick — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou Renwick (talk • contribs) 14:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi again Lou Renwick, good to hear from you. The best thing to do is to upload the images to Commons, declaring that they are or own work (assuming that's true?). Go to [2], and then click on the blue 'Upload' button near the top/right of the screen. If you are logged into Wikipedia when you do this, it should automatically log you into Commons. Read the advice about what they can accept, then click 'Next' at the bottom/right. You then go through a process of selecting the file, making a declaration of the release rights (basically you have to declare that it's your own work, or that you own the copyright, and release it for use by anybody else). Then describe what's in the picture, and you're done. Once you've uploaded them, let me know what the file is called and I'll add it to the article - you shouldn't add it yourself, your COI as the owner of the building means that you shouldn't really edit the article directly.
I am actually planning a holiday in Northumberland around Easter time - I'd love to come and see the place, I'll get in touch nearer the time - I assume I can contact you via the contact details on your website? Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 16:21, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of St Rufus Church

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article St Rufus Church you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of J Milburn -- J Milburn (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

My response

I forgot to ping you with my reply at Ergo's RFA, so here is a link to what I wrote. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 00:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Hallward's Ghost, thanks - I actually saw it before the RfA was still open, but didn't see any point getting into a lengthy off-topic discussion on a page that was about to be closed. Since you've come here, I'll reply. Briefly, I think that using terms like 'wankery', and make generalisations about groups of people with whom you disagree, isn't really productive. It's not about the language - I have no fear of rudey sweary words - it's just that I think if you're going to criticise behaviour, it's better to be clear and explicit about what you're criticising. I'm sure that people who agree with your analysis will know who/what you were talking about (or at least, I'm sure that they think they know), but I genuinely don't, and I expect the people you were actually referring to don't realise it - nobody would self-identify with the unpleasant description you gave, they probably imagine you were referring to some other denizen of ANI. Less dog-whistle snark, and more clearly expressed, reasoned and civil commentary, might actually change people's minds a bit. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 01:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
And that's where we part ways, I guess. I have no interest in being falsely polite to a group of people who insult a fantastic content creator like Ergo. The "rudeness" of my language was the point: an expression of my disgust at the collective pile of opposes to a good-faith editor like Ergo. Are the majority of people who frequent ANI wankers? No, I don't believe so. But if an editor is spending a large majority of their time at ANI, attaboying admins in an attempt to get the bit for themselves, instead of actually building the encyclopedia, then those kind of editors have a much higher likelihood of being pettifogging wankers. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 01:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Hallward's Ghost, fair enough, but I still don't know who you mean. I'm not encouraging you to tell me - I don't want you to open yourself up to an accusation of making personal attacks - but approbrium will not be felt by someone who doesn't know that it's being directed at them. Better surely to make your case in a manner that would abide by our civility policy, and which might actually be heard by the people you're directing it at. It's not about being falsely polite - it's about the effectiveness of the message. If someone calls 'people like me' a bunch of arseholes , I'll likely ignore whatever else they have to say, no matter how valid it might be, either because I choose not to recognise the description, or because they called me an arsehole. If they had bitten their tongue and just talked about the issues, I might have listened. GirthSummit (blether) 01:51, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
My anger is not directed at any one person, or any X number of specific people. It is directed at those people (as a general group) who spend X number of months at ANI in an attempt to attaboy enough admins to sail through RFA. Wikipedia's bureaucracy drives me nuts, and is one reason I left active editing for good about 10 years ago. It's also one reason I pop by RFA every so often to support candidates who are actually doing the work of building an encyclopedia, and to occasionally let fly when such a candidate is treated in a shitty manner, as Ergo was, by a bunch of people. And frankly, the people who overvalue bureaucracy on the project are never going to be convinced. It's not about that. It's about calling what they're doing by its name. That's what I was doing, and will periodically continue to do. I also have no use for our civility policy, as many years ago I saw it wielded as a cudgel against some of our best editors, such as Giano and others. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 03:11, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi there. Thanks so much for taking the time to close this AfD. I recognize that most editors voted to not delete the article, but, as you noted in the closing notes, none proved any evidence of significant coverage by reliable sources independent of the subject. Shouldn't Wikipedia's policy and guidelines be the standard that is applied, not the number of votes in a discussion? Clarification on this matter is appreciated. Thanks again. Qono (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Qono, hi. While I agree with you that !votes should be weighed against policy, it's also worth considering that every single vote was a keep (apart from your own nomination), and there were some very experienced editors in the discussion. I can't see how I could have closed it any other way to be honest - a delete close would have felt like a supervote, which I couldn't in good conscience do, and relisting seemed pointless when there was a clear consensus. You may of course ask for the close to be reviewed, if you think I have erred. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 18:19, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Girth Summit, I definitely appreciate that most everyone voted to keep and totally understand that you wouldn't want to cast a super-vote, but I am also mindful of the deletion guidelines (WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS) saying "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted." Also: "policies are not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether an article violates these content policies. Where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy, policy must be respected above individual opinions." The exception seems to be "Per "ignore all rules", a local consensus can suspend a guideline in a particular case where suspension is in the encyclopedia's best interests." So, I was hoping that you could articulate in the closing note how not following the notability guideline is in Wikipedia's best interest here. Otherwise, I think it may be appropriate to have the close reviewed. A tricky case, for sure. Qono (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Qono, I don't intend to revisit the closure, but by all means take it to review if you want to - that's the right course of action if you disagree with what I did. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 20:20, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2020).

Guideline and policy news

  • Following a request for comment, partial blocks are now enabled on the English Wikipedia. This functionality allows administrators to block users from editing specific pages or namespaces rather than the entire site. A draft policy is being workshopped at Wikipedia:Partial blocks.
  • The request for comment seeking the community's sentiment for a binding desysop procedure closed with wide-spread support for an alternative desysoping procedure based on community input. No proposed process received consensus.

Technical news

  • Twinkle now supports partial blocking. There is a small checkbox that toggles the "partial" status for both blocks and templating. There is currently one template: {{uw-pblock}}.
  • When trying to move a page, if the target title already exists then a warning message is shown. The warning message will now include a link to the target title. [3]

Arbitration

  • Following a recent arbitration case, the Arbitration Committee reminded administrators that checkuser and oversight blocks must not be reversed or modified without prior consultation with the checkuser or oversighter who placed the block, the respective functionary team, or the Arbitration Committee.

Miscellaneous


Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

New message from Puddleglum2.0

Hello, Girth Summit. You have new messages at Puddleglum2.0's talk page.
Message added 20:26, 1 February 2020 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

In trying to help a newer editor with their draft, and would appreciate your input. I don't want to intrude on your time, so please feel free to decline, just a request! Thanks. Puddleglum 2.0 20:26, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - February 2020

Delivered February 2020 by MediaWiki message delivery.
If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an N to the column against your username on the Project Mainpage.

21:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Revision to Tyler Clark Burke's page

Hi there, Girth Summit. Thanks for taking a look at my page (first one) for the artist Tyler Clark Burke. I have added several references now (my apologies for not doing this in the first place; I'm new to this and thought it would take months for review). Thank you for your time on this matter (and for all that you work on for Wikipedia). At your convenience, please feel free to let me know if you need anything else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.112.184.64 (talk) 17:32, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi IP editor, thanks for reaching out. I've had a look at the draft, and I'd advise you to find some better sourcing than what's on there at the moment before resubmitting. From a quick look:
  • The Toronto Star article would potentially be good, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at there - it appears to be a PDF document showing a screenshot of an article. Can you find a link to the original article? Note that, if the article is not online at the Toronto Star's website any longer, you may be able to find it using the Internet Archive - that would be permissible as a source, but I'm afraid a PDF on a webhosting site isn't (since it would be trivially easy to knock up fake sources that resemble that PDF).
  • The NYT article about A.P. Burke appears not to mention your subject by name - it doesn't support the assertion that she was his grand daughter.
  • The ADCC archives sources don't mention the subject.
  • The Spin Magazine source mentions the subject, but it's a single sentence - this is trivial coverage, and wouldn't count towards notability.
  • The Now magazine source is similar - just a couple of sentences about her studio.

I haven't look through the others, but if they are similar then this would not be accepted - I'd advise you to look for some solid sources with more in-depth coverage, and cut anything you can't support with reliable sources. Good luck! GirthSummit (blether) 18:23, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of St Rufus Church

The article St Rufus Church you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:St Rufus Church for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of J Milburn -- J Milburn (talk) 19:02, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Anti Vandalism Training Request

Hello! I'm Minecrafter0271. I would be interested in training for the Wikipedia:Counter Vandalism Unit. I have 443 edits under my belt, and I would love to fight against vandalism on Wikipedia. So, I need a trainer, who can teach me what I need to know. Thanks! Minecrafter0271 (talk) 19:08, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Minecrafter0271, thanks for reaching out. I'd be happy to show you the ropes - I'll set up a training page, and ping you from there. In the mean time, your required reading is at WP:VANDALISM… GirthSummit (blether) 19:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Alright. I did the mandatory reading of WP:VANDALISM and I understand it. Is there a page I have to go to? Please let me know. Thanks! Minecrafter0271 (talk) 22:02, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Minecrafter0271, hmm - you should have received a notification via the PING system, but perhaps that didn't make it through. Please see User:Girth Summit/CVUA/Minecrafter0271. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 22:18, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Hello! I'm just wondering, on average, how long will the gap me between me completing a task, and you updating the page? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minecrafter0271 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Minecrafter0271, it will vary - might be a few hours, might be a few dayd. I'm not online all the time. GirthSummit (blether) 06:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

This

was archived without any follow up to your proposal. Is it worth trying again? ——SN54129 13:18, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Serial Number 54129, SC hasnt requested an unblock - I've never heard of unblocking without an unblock request being made, is that something that happens? For me, their apology went a long way to showing that they knew where they'd erred - if they make an unblock request accepting an Iban, I'd accept it and unblock immediately; if they want to be unblocked without an Iban, I'd be happy to post anything they want to say at AN and go with consensus. I feel that the first move needs to come fron SC though. GirthSummit (blether) 13:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Clearly we do not unblock without an appeal. I meant vis a vis unarchiving the ANI thread for further input. But perhaps everyone who would have spoken already did. And time, as they say... ——SN54129 13:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Serial Number 54129, ok, understood. Is there anything particular you had in mind, maybe something you wanted to put on the record? I don't see any point in reopening it speculatively, but I'm guessing that you didn't swing by here without something having been on your mind - I'm happy to discuss any thoughts. GirthSummit (blether) 19:15, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Jallianwala Bagh massacre

Hi...hope you are well...seeking your opinion on IP edits here.... Whispyhistory (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Whispyhistory, looks like vandalism. I see it's coming from a few different IPs, so I've applied semi protection for three days. Let me know if it starts up again when the protection expires. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 18:27, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks...I think it will likely continue until someone reviews and rewrites most of that article. Whispyhistory (talk) 18:29, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Whispyhistory, possibly. We could maybe add pendibg changes protection to it if it keeps happening, Id probably ask abithrr admin's opinion before applying anything long term. GirthSummit (blether) 18:50, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
OK...I'll keep an eye on it anyway. Thank you again. Whispyhistory (talk) 18:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi..It started again. Whispyhistory (talk) 12:27, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Whispyhistory, OK - I've extended the semi-protection for a couple of weeks. If it continues after that, I'll ask someone more experienced than me whether they think it needs a long spell of semi-protection, or if something else like pending changes would be the better choice. Apologies, by the way, for the illiteracy in my last message. My phone was doing something weird with predictive text... Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 17:30, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Thank you kindly...I didn't even notice the "illiteracy". :) Whispyhistory (talk) 18:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

B. Wongar

You are welcome to join to the discussion. It's uncivil to write threats on my talk page related to my edits of the Wongar's biography since my edits are transparent and honest. As to B. Wongar's work, slanderous accusations and defamaton are by no means negative criticism and rejection of them is not a whitewash. What you call "negative criticism" is already addressed along with the academic rejections of the same. It's against BLP to categorise his work as a cultural appropriation and a literary forgeries and at the same time to delete a long list of Wongar's awards and recognitions - the best and powerful rejection of the "negative criticism". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.243.245 (talk) 21:05, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken - I have not threatened you. A warning that edit warring may lead to a block is not a threat, it's just telling you something that all editors need to be aware of, especially when they are engaging in edit warring. I am not going to get involved in the discussion, my note to you was made in my capacity as an administrator, and it concerned your conduct. I see no breach of BLP policy that would justify edit warring, and I explained to you why that was the case. How you move forward from here is up to you, now that you are aware or our policies. GirthSummit (blether) 23:41, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Idea for new community workspace

Hi. I would like to create some kind of collaborative workspace where coordinators or members of various WikiProjects would gather and provide updates and information on what is going on at each wikiproject, i.e. regarding their latest efforts, projects, and where interested editors can get involved.

You have been very helpful, so I wanted to get your brief input on whether you'd be interested in helping me to make this happen. I see a few possible options for making this happen, so I would like to get your input and feedback on this. which of the options below would you prefer? also, please reply to the brief questions below.

Please feel free to let me know what you think of this idea, and please let me know your preference, regarding the options above. if you do not see any need for this idea, that is totally fine. However, I think that the majority of editors lack awareness of where the truly active editing is taking place and at which WikiProjects, and I would like to do whatever I can to help make people more aware of where the activity is, what they can do to help, and also which areas of Wikipedia offer ideas and efforts that might help them in their own editing activities. Please feel free to let me know. --Sm8900 (talk) 05:15, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

hi! by the way, we are discussing this now as a proposal, at the following location. your input would be welcome there. thanks. link: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Idea_for_new_community_workspace. --Sm8900 (talk) 22:31, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Potential RfB

Hello! I notice that you're an administrator. You do a wonderful job at reverting vandalism, and you're a pleasure to work with. So, after going through your contribs, I think that you would do a lot of good as a bureaucrat. I haven't created the nomination page yet, as I need your consent, but I hope you'll agree with this. Cheers! Minecrafter0271 (talk) 21:04, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Minecrafter0271, thanks for the kind words, much appreciated! However, I've only been an admin for a few months, there's plenty for me still to learn in many areas. Furthermore, closing discussions/weighing consensus isn't an area I've had a great deal of experience in, and that's what's at the heart of the bureaucrat role, so I wouldn't feel comfortable putting myself forward for that role. Thanks for thinking of me though, it's always nice to hear that someone thinks well of you. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 21:15, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer newsletter February 2020

Hello Girth Summit,

Source Guide Discussion

The first NPP source guide discussion is now underway. It covers a wide range of sources in Ghana with the goal of providing more guidance to reviewers about sources they might see when reviewing pages. Hopefully, new page reviewers will join others interested in reliable sources and those with expertise in these sources to make the discussion a success.

Redirects

New to NPP? Looking to try something a little different? Consider patrolling some redirects. Redirects are relatively easy to review, can be found easily through the New Pages Feed. You can find more information about how to patrol redirects at WP:RPATROL.

Discussions and Resources
Refresher

Geographic regions, areas and places generally do not need general notability guideline type sourcing. When evaluating whether an article meets this notability guideline please also consider whether it might actually be a form of WP:SPAM for a development project (e.g. PR for a large luxury residential development) and not actually covered by the guideline.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 7095 Low – 4991 High – 7095

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here

16:08, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Milton Tower

On 14 February 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Milton Tower, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Milton Tower was the birthplace of John Ogilvie, Scotland's only post-Reformation Catholic saint? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Milton Tower. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Milton Tower), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

ANI

Hi, please take a look at this inference of your comment and please respond if you agree with that inference, since I don't. --DBigXrayᗙ 13:52, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray, I just wrote an expansion on my thoughts in response to you. I've got to dash now, but briefly - I don't know if I'd go so far as to use the word 'inappropriate'; I think 'unhelpful and potentially counterproductive' would be a better description. GirthSummit (blether) 13:58, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
"unhelpful and potentially counterproductive" are secondary to this. The applicability is the primary question here. Was I right in giving the particular template for the issue that had happened. This is a yes or no question and would appreciate if you could answer it clearly on the ANI where I had asked it to you. DBigXrayᗙ 14:13, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Rishi Sunak

Hi ... ?Needs some protection, at least for few days. Please have a look. Thank you. Whispyhistory (talk) 17:49, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Whispyhistory, I'm on mobile at the moment, not great for reviewing diffs - consider reporting to RFPP if urgent, I'll try to take a look tomorrow GirthSummit (blether) 18:12, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
It's ok..someone has done it. Whispyhistory (talk) 05:27, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your kind offer to Joshuaharrisoneast. I think you are right to put in the "at face value" qualification. The current referencing doesn't suggest academic rigour, and his comment on my talk It is important information that needs to be made available to everyone. doesn't quite fit either, cheers Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:18, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Jimfbleak, I'm a sucker for AGF! In truth though, if my partner (a history prof) is to be believed, masters students' work doesn't always show as much academic rigour as one might hope for, and I can imagine an enthusiastic student who is studying, and is perhaps a fan of, a little-known composer saying something like that. If they can turn up decent sources, I'll be happy to keep an eye on their draft as it develops, but I'll be sure to let them know if the sourcing doesn't pass muster. GirthSummit (blether) 13:23, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


Thanks for your comments, however, none of them are accurate. LOOK AT THIS WIKIPEDIA PAGE - IT IS ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE THE ONE I CREATED THAT WAS DELETED - AND LOOK CLOSELY AT THE SOURCES - THESE ARE ALL THE SAME THINGS YOU TOLD ME I COULD NOT USE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Runestad — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuaharrisoneast (talk • contribs) 15:47, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

DO EITHER OF YOU ACTUALLY WORK FOR WIKIPEDIA OR ARE YOU JUST BORED PEOPLE WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN TO GO THROUGH AND DELETE PEOPLE'S PAGES? IF YOU ARE EMPLOYED BY WIKIPEDIA I'D EXPECT YOU TO BE MORE PROFESSIONAL THAN THIS. UNACCEPTABLE AND OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOR FROM BOTH OF YOU. Joshuaharrisoneast (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2020 (UTC)Joshuaharrisoneast

Joshuaharrisoneast You're obviously upset, so I'm going to overlook the tone of your remark above, and the SHOUTING which is never appropriate. Here are a few points in response to your points:
  • The argument you are making is often characterised as other stuff exists. The short answer to that is that there are many, many articles on Wikipedia that do not meet our quality standards. Some of them were created many years ago before our quality standards were as rigorous as they are now; others simply slip through the net as a result of poor reviewing. We do our utmost to catch them all, but there are millions of articles and we're only human. I may find time to review the article that you've posted and, if it's as bad as you say it is, I may end up nominating it for deletion, or pruning it, as appropriate.
  • No, neither Jim nor I are employed by the Wikimedia foundation. We are volunteer editors, like yourself, but we have been entrusted by the community with administrative tools because we have demonstrated our knowledge of policy, and our ability and willingness to abide by it. See WP:ADMIN for more on this.
  • In saying that we are not employees, I obviously don't ascribe to the alternative that you have presented - it has nothing to do with wanting to go through and delete people's pages. We are entrusted by the community to uphold the expected standards of articles. Your article was deleted, in part, because it was an unambiguous copyright infringement - it would not only have been against our policies to host it, it would also have been illegal, and in creating it you breached the terms of use of this website. For you to complain that Jimfbleak was being unprofessional in deleting it is frankly ridiculous; to complain that I am being unprofessional by offering to help you write a better article simply beggars belief.
Somewhat against my better judgement, I am not going to withdraw my offer to assist you in writing a draft - I think you've come here to blow off steam after being rejected earlier, and so I'm going to give you one chance to change your attitude. My message on your talk page, therefore, still stands - in its entirety. We are not going to accept a lower standard of sourcing from you because you have been able to find a poorly sourced article; we are not going to wave someone through our notability guidelines because there are articles out there about subjects that might not be notable. If you can demonstrate that your subject is notable, then an article can be written, and I will help you to write it if you want me to. A warning though - you should read WP:CIVIL, and WP:NPA, and abide by them. Any further outbursts like the one above may see your account being blocked from editing. GirthSummit (blether) 16:19, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
@Girth, I'm going to put in a UAA request to have your account renamed to Patience Summit. Levivich 17:15, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Levivich, one does one's best - WP:RFCN is thataway... GirthSummit (blether) 17:39, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
The page he keeps copying is probably written by him, but isn't marked as PD or similar, I've tried to spell that out on my talk page in the midst of a similar rant Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Jimfbleak, I confess I didn't see the totality of that one-sidedly civil exchange when I offered to help them. I think Levivich should be looking to change your handle too... GirthSummit (blether) 17:52, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I don't know if you have been following this, but Joshuaharrisoneast and two socks have now been indeffed after a CU check {: Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:59, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
Jimfbleak, I saw the first one when you pinged me. He was vandalising my articles - I was the one trying to help him! People are strange... GirthSummit (blether) 08:26, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposal for new resource

I would like to propose a possible new resource for WikiProjects, a community forum, or "town hall," for allowing communication between different WikiProjects. would anyone have any interest in this? Please feel free to let me know, or to comment. thanks!!

Please note, the page linked to below is merely an example, so that tab header for this page is for a different WikiProject. If implemented, the link would be placed on the specific tab header for this WikiProject, not the one shown below. thanks.

If you like this idea, or have any feedback, please feel free to comment at the discussion at Village Pump.

thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:14, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Sm8900, hi - thanks for the reminder, I realise that I forgot to respond to your original post about this. To be honest though, I think at the moment I'll probably leave this proposal for others who are more invested in WikiProjects to discuss. I'm a member of a couple, but I don't really have too much to do with projects, and I'm not sure I have any particular insights into whether this proposal would be beneficial or not. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 13:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
thanks! by the way, I corrected the link, since there are some existing some comments at the first draft page for this. here is the correct link: User:Sm8900/Community forum and bulletin board re WikiProjects
as far as the usefulness of this, please feel free to just take a glance at the new draft. I tried to upgrade the format, content, and usability for this. please let me know what you think. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 13:34, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

You realised that AfD is often a cesspool of incivility

On ANI you had stated "I realise that AfD is a often a cesspool of incivility". This is a general discussion on this statement of yours and I would appreciate if you not take the recent examples or anyone's name while responding. I would also appreciate that you dont get into philosophical discussion about Human nature. I have simple questions.

  • Q1. How did it become this cesspool?
  • Q2. Who is responsible for letting the situation to degrade to become a cesspool.
Hi DBigXray. I'll do my best and keep this on-point, and not to get side-tracked too much into philosophical musings. I'm also not going to give any examples or name any individuals, but I can think of several recent examples of what I'm speaking about below...
  • A1 - I haven't been here long enough to be speak knowledgably, but I suspect it was always like that. AfD is a place where people's emotions are naturally heightened - after all, we are talking about removing something from the project. There are obvious reasons why people on both sides of any debate might be worked up - perhaps they wrote the article, and put a lot of effort into it; perhaps they believe the article has been written to promote something, and that it's an abuse of Wikipedia; perhaps they care passionately about the subject, or indeed believe passionately that we shouldn't be covering the subject. Whatever, people are often very invested in the issue, and when that is the case people don't always behave ideally.
  • A2 - Everyone who participates. What I have frequently observed is that incivility is like a ratchet - heat builds up easily, starting small but getting progressively worse, and it can be difficult to get it to go back down. Someone says something a bit pointy; their target makes a reply that is at least equally, but often slightly more, snarky; the original person, or a third party, then makes an even worse comment, and before you know it people are making blatant personal attacks towards one another. Everyone involved feels aggrieved, everyone thinks that other people are at fault, but few people are ever willing to look at what they've said themselves and really reflect on whether they could have handled things better. When you come across a situation like that, it can be difficult to attribute 'blame' in any useful way - you can't usually identify a specific point at which you can say "OK, everything up to this point is just people being a bit snarky, but this diff is the one where someone crossed the line" - even if you can identify the first actual PA, people will always say "Ah, but that was provoked - look at this earlier comment" - and, in a sense, they will be right.
  • A3 - I'm not sure that 'restored' is the right word, since I'm not sure that it was ever anything else. But if you're asking how it can become a different sort of place, that requires everyone to behave better. I'm a big believer in this pledge - I put a lot of effort into trying to live up to it. I believe that if you exhibit an excess of civility towards others, even when their behaviour isn't ideal, situations tend not to degenerate as I've described above. Opprobrium is also underused - more people ought to be more willing just say to other people "Look, that's a bit rude, could you not say things like that please?" - not threaten people with blocks or visits to ANI, just tell them that they're out of line and ask them to up their game. GirthSummit (blether) 12:14, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for not taking names. Let me give you an analogy. Enjoy

Crime in FOO_land has skyrocketed. Police Commissioner GS is holding a press conference.
Journo: Commissioner, who is responsible for rise in incidents of battery and road rage ?

  • Commissioner GS: Every citizen who participates in it. What I have frequently observed is that violence is like a ratchet - heat builds up easily, starting small but getting progressively worse, and it can be difficult to get it to go back down. Someone says something a bit pointy; their target makes a reply that is at least equally, but often slightly more, snarky; the original person, or a third party, then makes an even worse comment, and before you know it people are at their throats with attacks towards one another. Everyone involved feels aggrieved, everyone thinks that other people are at fault, but few people are ever willing to look at what they've said and did themselves and really reflect on whether they could have handled things better. When you come across a situation like that, it can be difficult to attribute 'blame' in any useful way - you can't usually identify a specific point at which you can say "OK, everything up to this point is just people being a bit snarky, but this diff is the one where someone crossed the line" - even if you can identify the first actual attacker, people will always say "Ah, but that was provoked - look at this earlier comment" - and, in a sense, they will be right.

Journo : Commissioner, How can these crimes be brought under control and FOO_land be restored to a civil and sane place?

  • Commissioner GS. I'm not sure that 'restored' is the right word, since I'm not sure that it was ever anything else. But if you're asking how it can become a different sort of place, that requires everyone to behave better. I'm a big believer in Our constitutional values - I put a lot of effort into trying to live up to it. I believe that if you exhibit an excess of civility towards others, even when their behaviour isn't ideal, situations tend not to degenerate as I've described above. Opprobrium is also underused - more people ought to be more willing just say to other people "Look, that's a bit rude, could you not say things like that please?" - not threaten people or visits to the police station, just tell them that they're out of line and ask them to up their game.

The journo was was visibly shocked, nevertheless the interview was published and the next day Commissioner GS was sacked. DBigXrayᗙ 13:03, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

(talk page watcher)Not having read the original Ani thread, I do just want to note that I don't think analogizing sysops to police is a good idea for anyone. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:13, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Isn't policing unruly wikipedians a part of an Admin's job description ? DBigXrayᗙ 13:17, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Some editors might say yes, but I would give an emphatic no. First there is no "job description". Girth and I have a lot of similar interests but use the administrative toolkit in very different ways. Toolkit being the operative phrase in that sentence - I view being a sysop as merely having several extra buttons I can press. As for unruly Wikipedians, any Wikipedian can mediate a dispute. Our main mediator at WP:DRN is not a sysop after all. As I wrote in WP:MUSHROOM (which I think I stole from elsewhere but I put in because I believe it): It is true that you may be able to help mediate a dispute effectively, or resolve one, or guide the improvement of an article. But in virtually all of these cases your ability has nothing to do with your being an administrator, just with your experience, knowledge of the policies, and good sense—i.e. virtues you had long before you became an administrator. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Well this is not about the admin doing DYK hooks or GAR or DRN but the admin helping on ANI/AIV etc (admin users of block button). We can agree to disagree. --DBigXrayᗙ 13:40, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXray, I'm not really sure that your analogy works, certainly not with regard to battery. If someone hits someone else, you have a very clear point at which one can say 'right, that's actionable'. One can always claim provocation for any act, but the step from verbal abuse to physical violence is pretty clear-cut. Road rage is probably the better one - someone cuts me up in traffic, so I flip them the bird, so they roll down their window and call me a cunt, so I stop my car and get out to shout at them, so they get out and start shouting at me. And there we have it - two grown men standing in the street shouting at each other, holding up traffic for everyone. The policeman comes by to sort it out - what do they do? Who's in the wrong? We both are. Who started it? Was it them cutting me up? Maybe that was accidental - maybe I started it by flipping them off, or by escalating it by getting out of my car. Does it even matter who started it? We're both adults - we shouldn't be behaving like that, we're both to blame, both accountable for our actions. The only way to stop that sort of thing happening is for all of us to be more aware of our responsibility not to be a jerk, not to overreact when someone else is a jerk, to make a conscious effort to do whatever we can to maintain civility. GirthSummit (blether) 13:17, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
I'd say the analogy does work, because provocation is being used to defend the action. I was thinking of choosing between assault and battery and went with the latter to make the visualizations interesting. Now I will link this with the case at ANI, my point of this analogy was defending what I said in response to your cesspool comment, that might have irked you at ANI.
I hope you are aware that in the thread, I said several times, that the attacks on me (for which I gave templates) were unprovoked but no admin bothered to check and confirm it. The thread was started claiming my templates were for non existent personal attacks and when I provided diffs if the attacks, the entire thread was filibustered on the sole point of the templates. But apparently our competent admins can't be bothered to check the timestamps while checking the veracity of the claims and counterclaims. DBigXrayᗙ 13:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
DBigXRay I didn't agree with your comment there, but I wouldn't say that I was irked by it - should I have been, were you referring to me?
The thread wasn't just about your use of PA templates - there were other things that were raised, and while I think the thread was completely unnecessary and should never have been raised against you, I do think that there are things you could have done better (I hope that it goes without saying that I also think there were things that other people could have done better, some of them much more serious things that anything you did). If you'd like me to, I'll explain what they are, but I'm not going to shove them down your neck if you're not interested. GirthSummit (blether) 13:51, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that I was irked by it Cool, - should I have been, No,  were you referring to me? No it was a general comment not to specific admin. thread was completely unnecessary Yes, which is why despite being the aggrieved party it was not me who started the ANI. I did not felt it was worth wasting my time over it, but someone else did with completely incorrect basis. Would i like you to explain ? No. Suffice to say I have been editing here for a long time, am reasonably competent and I had read what everyone was saying. There is no reason for anyone to waste anymore time than what was already wasted over this. I hope the ANI will have a positive impact, but as the closing admin said, folks can always return back. regards. DBigXrayᗙ 14:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

note re items

Hi. can you please help me on WP:ANI? there is a section on some of my recent edits. I have already accepted and been open to all of the points there. your input might be helpful in resolving this positively, as an admin who can assist with providing some positive resolution, or context, etc. I appreciate any help. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Sm8900, I'm afraid that I'm about to log off and go out for the evening. I'll try to take a look at it tomorrow, time permitting. GirthSummit (blether) 16:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
okay, please do!! I could really use your input, when you get a chance. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

You might be interested to know

That the fun continues. I've indeffed per Wikipedia:No legal threats. Bizarre that having had East's battles to get a Naverud bio on here, we are now being told to take it off when it doesn't currently exist Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:08, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Jimfbleak, weird. Do you think they imagine that we are hosting that PDF here, rather than just linking to it? GirthSummit (blether) 15:38, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
The whole post shows a total lack of understanding of how we work, what's been going on, that East posted everything that was here, not us, and what is actually still here (nothing). I don't think I'll see him in court, somehow Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:41, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Jimfbleak, they've been CU blocked as a sock of East - so no, probably little chance of a future court date... GirthSummit (blether) 16:44, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Surinamese guilders?

Okay so do you or Gog the Mild have a clue how to convert Surinamese guilders in 1764 to some sort of currency now? I know there was a ton of discussion on the conversion on Macpherson Grant and I've since used that British calculator on several articles, but I'm stumped about how to make that template convert guilders. It seems to me that ƒ155,000 was a huge number then and I'm curious as to what its equivalent would be now. The article in question is Elisabeth Samson, which was a total mess and I am just now working on a complete rewrite. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. SusunW (talk) 00:14, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

It seems to me that we need to know how many Surinamese guilders there were to a pound sterling in 1764, even if very roughly. We can treat it as identical to the Dutch guilder. Which contained 9.655 grams of silver. In 1816, the pound, in silver, was set at 113 grams - prior to this it "floated". So, in a very rough and ready way, ƒ155,000 = £13,244 in 1764. Or £2,400,000 in today's money. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! But Gog the Mild. I have no clue how you did that, but really, really appreciate it. SusunW (talk) 05:21, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

CVUA

This is a note that I have decided to remove myself from the CVUA trainers list. Not many editors have asked me for vandalism training. I'm thinking the reason might be because I have a little less experience compared to you and CASSIOPEIA. I appreciate all the advice you gave me about training others for vandalism. I might consider re-adding myself in the future, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Regards, Interstellarity (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity, it's your call of course, but I wouldn't give up just yet if I were you. In my experience, students come in fits and starts. I've had times when loads of several people approach me within a few weeks, and other times I've gone months with no new students. (I have a hunch that it might coincide with the starts/ends of academic term times, but I'm not sure about that). Anyway, totally up to you either way. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 17:27, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Interstellarity A further thought on this - with CASS's impending adminship, she might have less time available for CVUA stuff - I know my availability has reduced since the tools were waved in front of me. I haven't spoken to her about it, but I for one would be happy knowing that you were 'waiting in the wings' if one or other of us decided to step back. Please don't let this affect your decision if you've truly decided that you don't want to do it, but I really think you'd be good at it so just wanted to put it out there.​ GirthSummit (blether) 20:13, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
I am busy with school and may not review assignments in a timely manner and that is part of the reason why I dropped out. Did you see this conversation with CASSIOPEIA about this? Interstellarity (talk) 11:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Interstellarity, understood - seriously, no pressure from me to do it if it's not something you've got time for, you must focus on your real life obligations, that's what really matters. GirthSummit (blether) 13:06, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@Interstellarity:, I'd be glad to work with you, I asked summit first because I didn't know if timezones/school would line up and I was trying to be considerate. I'm generally on weekdays on and off during the work day (8AM-5PM) EST, if this can work with you then I would be happy to work with you. Although looking at CASSIOPEIA's page are you no longer interested? I'm okay either way :) Flalf (talk) 02:50, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
@Flalf: As I said to CASSIOPEIA, I have somewhat a lack in interest in teaching new students counter vandalism. If I regain interest, I may sign up again in the future. My time zone is the same as yours, although I'm currently traveling and 5 hours behind. Also, I am a bit busy in real life especially college and can't always devote my time serving Wikipedia 24/7. I try to balance real life and Wikipedia although this may be so easy. You are welcome to sign up as a trainer if you feel you can instruct new students. Thank you for reading this message. Interstellarity (talk) 04:32, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
@Interstellarity:, No worries and no pressure as per our conversation, when you are ready and regain the interest, then sign up as we all understand the college workload can be a little be stressful. Best. CASSIOPEIA(talk) 05:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

CVUA student

Hello Girth Summit,
One of your CVUA students, Minecrafter0271 got blocked from editing. You might want to consider removing this user from the list of instructors and deleting the training page. Thank you, Interstellarity (talk) 04:59, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Interstellarity, thanks, I'd missed that. GirthSummit (blether) 07:54, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Pepper spray

Hi GS, sorry for not reporting this earlier but there is another version to revel on that page. I also opened a report at WP:SPI for the three accounts involved in this story. Cheers and thanks, --DoebLoggs (talk) 13:18, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Good spot, thanks - gone. I think the SPI is a good move, they're all adding the same promotional content. Not really my area though, I'll leave that to those who know what they're doing. GirthSummit (blether) 13:25, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Mighty mistakes made to edit refless riting

Hi, and sry for the failed skaldic poetry title ... and edit ... but looking up Brage in the ref given, it says he was married to the daughter of a skald, hence he was not the first skald, nor any kind of originator of skaldity. To say that he was, using NBL, is simply misquoting the source. What the source does say, though, was that "Brage Boddason er den eldste skalden vi har skaldedikting etter", scil., Bragi is the oldest skald "that we have skaldic poetry after (i.e. from)", or, weless, "whose (skaldic) poetry been preserved for posterity", or something. If the "us" is fixed, is this change then uncontroversial? The others were just an afterthought, although Snorri might perhaps be credited with named works that can be linked to the relevant articles, instead of some empty adjectives. To say that eddaic verse is simple in meter and style is slightly misleading. It might be simpler than drottkvætt, but that is not saying much. I know that Wiki is not a Wiki source, but looking at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_verse#Old_Norse_poetic_forms - which is quite well sourced - indicates that "simple" is not the best descriptor of a kvad, be it skaldic or eddaic. This is not to quibble, just to explain my thinking, if such it was, when committing the edit. Both Snorre and simplicity are minor matters which I am well content to let rest, but the Brage issue is, IMHO, simply misinformation, and Wiki is better for fixing it. What say you? T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 14:21, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi - so, there main problem I had with your edit was the way it was phrased - "known to us" isn't a phrase we should be using, and better alternative would be "the oldest surviving examples" or something similar to that. If it had just been that, I would have made the change myself rather than reverting you, but you also changed "Bragi" to "Bragis verses". Re-reading it properly, I see that it was meant to be a possessive s, and so I could simply have changed it to "Bragi's verses". I would be perfectly happy for you to reinstate your change, perhaps wording it along the lines of "Brage is the earliest skald whose writing has survived", or similar. Sorry for the inconvenience. GirthSummit (blether) 14:33, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi, thx for elucidation and help. All inconvenience was in my error, the rest ist improvement, of the article, and me :) While we're at it: the preceding sentence claims Ragnarsdråpa to be the oldest norse poem. Now, the experts agree that the text of the Eggja stone, dated to 650 - 700, is written in a stylized meter, making it if not the oldest poem, at least one older than Rdr. But perhaps this is due to an ambiguity in the word "poem/poetry", as in "poem by a known author". While truth is a noble value, I don't want to rob Brage of all article content either, so how much of a stickler is it possible, or profitable to be? T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi, oh well, couldn't wait, went bold, put in "among the oldest poems", but in a separate, easily reverted edit. T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Looks good to me! GirthSummit (blether) 15:00, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi, sorry to be the pebble in the boot here ... but IIRC not many skalds themselves left anything in writing; the poems were recorded much later. Now the article says "... whose writings ...". Con su permiso and with thx for being endlessly patient, I will change "writing" to "verse". Then my work her shall be done; I'll leave it to posterity to refine the concepts. T 85.166.161.28 (talk) 16:37, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Go for it - makes sense to me. GirthSummit (blether) 16:42, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Definitely the last on Joshua East

Although Joshua East claimed to have no COI, I couldn't quite work out why JNarverud also triggered the CU sock puppet check, since you wouldn't expect East to pretend to be Naverud. Then I spotted the "spouse" line in the heading of this page. Yet another lie. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:02, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Jimfbleak, gosh - yes, ok, if true that's a bit of a conflict. I spent a few minutes the other day Googling the two names, they appear to have coauthored some music too. GirthSummit (blether) 08:15, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:56, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

note re your comments

your comments recently at ANI, and related talk pages, have been helpful, thoughtful. very insightful, and very principled. I really appreciate your help. I will take all of the points and concerns there to heart. having someone like you there, who advocated for full fairness and for our core principles, was really helpful. thanks!!! by the way, I may work on some alternate ways to approach those ideas. don't worry, I don't see any reason to set up entirely new resources from this point forward. would it be okay if I contact you in the future, to show you some other drafts? an admin like you has lots of insight into how things should really work around here. I greatly appreciate your help. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Sm8900, you're welcome. Regarding your drafts and ideas, if it's about Wikiprojects, as I said before I'm probably not your best choice, since I'm not very involved with them. I may have time to take a look, but it's not really my bag to be honest. GirthSummit (blether) 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
that sounds fine. I do appreciate your reply. I will keep that in mind. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 18:00, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Request on 20:38:37, 12 February 2020 for assistance on AfC submission by Minedramamine


Hi there! I think I'm starting a new talk topic (when really I want to respond to the last one). I apologize if I'm doing this wrong.

I will respond to your comments inline below (in all caps):

Hi IP editor, thanks for reaching out. I've had a look at the draft, and I'd advise you to find some better sourcing than what's on there at the moment before resubmitting. From a quick look:

I WILL LOOK INTO PROVIDING MORE SOURCES (I'M DOING MORE RESEARCH NOW). I HAVE REACHED OUT TO TYLER FOR MORE INFORMATION. SHE MENTIONED THE THREE GUT RECORDS WIKIPEDIA IS PAGE IS FULL OF ERRORS.

The Toronto Star article would potentially be good, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at there - it appears to be a PDF document showing a screenshot of an article. Can you find a link to the original article? Note that, if the article is not online at the Toronto Star's website any longer, you may be able to find it using the Internet Archive - that would be permissible as a source, but I'm afraid a PDF on a webhosting site isn't (since it would be trivially easy to knock up fake sources that resemble that PDF).

THE ARTICLE DATE (JULY 11, 2004) IS ARCHIVED ON THE WAYBACK MACHINE, BUT THERE ARE UNFORTUNATELY NO RESULTS ONCE THE SNAPSHOT IS CLICKED UPON. I EMAILED TYLER AND SHE IS GOING TO CONTACT THE TORONTO STAR. I CAN ATTEMPT TO WRITE THE AUTHOR, MURRAY WHYTE. CAN HE PROVIDE A SWORN STATEMENT SOMEHOW? (I DID ALSO FIND THIS ARTICLE ON OFFLINE SOURCES FOR WIKIPEDIA PAGES): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Offline_sources

The NYT article about A.P. Burke appears not to mention your subject by name - it doesn't support the assertion that she was his grand daughter.

GOOD POINT. HERE'S FRANK BURKE'S BIO PAGE IF THIS IS USEFUL? HE IS CITED IN THE ARTICLE. HE MENTIONS HIS THREE CHILDREN ON HIS OFFICIAL BIOGRAPY PAGE. I WILL REQUEST TYLER WRITE THE NYTIMES AND ADD A CORRECTION. https://www.queensu.ca/filmandmedia/faculty-and-staff/faculty-and-staff-bios/frank-burke

The ADCC archives sources don't mention the subject.

I LOOKED AND IT APPEARS IT DOES IF YOU SCROLL DOWN?

The Spin Magazine source mentions the subject, but it's a single sentence - this is trivial coverage, and wouldn't count towards notability.

SHOULD THIS BE DELETED?

The Now magazine source is similar - just a couple of sentences about her studio.

SHOULD THIS BE DELETED?

I haven't look through the others, but if they are similar then this would not be accepted - I'd advise you to look for some solid sources with more in-depth coverage, and cut anything you can't support with reliable sources. Good luck! GirthSummit (blether) 18:23, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

THANK YOU!!!

Minedramamine (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Minedramamine, hi. So, if you're in contact with the subject of this article, I think you need to clarify the nature of your relationship with them. Please carefully read WP:COI, and WP:PAID, and take whichever steps are necessary according to your situation. This is very important - these policies are taken seriously, and failure to adhere to them closely will result in your being blocked from editing. Once you have confirmed that you have read and understood them, and have made the necessary disclosures, I will be prepared to offer further advice, but not before. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 21:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi there. I am a fan of her old record label (Three Gut Records). I discovered there was no page for Tyler as I was researching a page for Katharine Mulherin (I am working on researching her page next and have written to her friends but haven't heard back yet). Katharine's page is very complicated and I do need to write the family for information to support her biographical details (but I didn't know her personally either). I also used to intern at Eye Weekly after Tyler worked there, and I also worked at The Toronto Star (The Star owned Eye Weekly). I wrote Tyler to ask for help for more sources after you flagged multiple changes and I couldn't find things on Google. She has responded with links to media.

I can delete the page if I'm doing this wrong.


Minedramamine (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Minedramamine, OK, fair enough - I thought perhaps that you were friends, colleagues or similar. Please confirm though that you've read those guidelines, and are confident that nothing in them is relevant to you, and I'll try to find time to look into the draft again soon. GirthSummit (blether) 23:18, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I’ve read the guidelines and there isn’t a conflict of interest (or an exchange of $!), but I’m unsure I can fix all the things you’ve flagged. I may try to pass this on to someone savvier with Wikipedia. Minedramamine (talk) 00:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Minedramamine Hi again. I've reformatted your comments above somewhat to make them easier for me to read - I hope that's OK by you.
So, I've been pondering this a bit more and looking at your sources, and I think that it might be possible to demonstrate that the subject is notable, and that we should have an article about her. Before I get into that though, I do want to talk a bit more about the COI stuff. I am happy to believe that you are a fan of her label, and that there is no direct connection with her that would give you an obvious COI. On the other hand... you are in correspondence with her, and you indicated earlier on that she had told you that there were problems with our article about Three Gut Records. My slight concern is that you might be tempted to add/remove material because she had asked you to - perhaps because she said it was incorrect, or that there were missing details, etc. If you are acting on behalf of the subject of an article - even if you're not employed by her to do so, and you're just doing it as a favour, or because you're a fan - you do have a COI.
Please let me expand on this a bit. Our ultimate goal is obviously to have accurate content - but we aim to achieve that goal in a very specific way. Our content must be verifiable - meaning that the information must come from reliable, published sources. We cannot 'take someone's word for it', even if they are obviously an expert on the matter. If the sources are wrong, we have to be wrong too - the aim isn't to publish the truth, it's to reflect what the sources say. If they are wrong, so are we - that's intentional.
That's not to say that nothing can ever change - I haven't looked at Three Gut Records, and I know nothing about the subject, but if there is material in there that is unsourced, that can come out if you think it's wrong. But if the material that Tyler says is wrong is supported by decent sources, I'm afraid it has to stay there unless you can find better sources - more recent ones perhaps, or more reliable publications - saying otherwise. And if your reason for thinking that it's wrong is because Tyler says so, then you shouldn't remove it yourself - rather, you should make an edit request on the article talk page, indicate that you're in touch with Tyler and that she says the information is wrong, and present a reliable source supporting what you believe it ought to say. I know this sounds bureaucratic, but it's our defense against people/organisations coming along and basically writing whatever they like about themselves!
So, back to your draft. Can you give me a link to the Wayback Machine archive for the Toronto Star article? I might be able to find something if I have a starting point. Where did you unearth the PDF from? We don't need a sworn statement from the author or anything like that, and offline sources are indeed OK (a lot of my articles are supported in part by printed books); on the other hand, anyone who reviews your article is going to want to be able to confirm for themselves that the subject is notable. If the principal sources are offline, and the notability seems to be borderline, it's a much harder job for the reviewer to satisfy themselves that the notability is there.
I was also thinking that she might be able to pass our WP:NAUTHOR notability guideline, since she's written a number of books, which appear to have had some reviews in respectable publications, so I'm feeling that there may be a pass for her there. If you can find any more reviews of her books in serious publications, that would add weight to the notability claim there.
Regarding some of the other sources:
  • The NYT article mentions Frances Burke, and the Queens Uni site about Frank Burke mentions Tyler. I believe you that Frances and Frank are the same person, but this isn't verifiable, since the Queens Uni one doesn't mention his father. I know I'm being nitpicky, and this probably sounds ridiculous to someone who knows all this to be true - but on the other hand, there must be lots of people called Frances/Frank Burke, so an uninformed reader couldn't verify that the information is true from the sources provided. If the assertion is that Tyler Clarke Burke is the granddaughter of A P Burke, we need a source setting this out specifically, or setting out that Frank Burke of Queens Uni is the son of A P Burke, and that Tyler Clarke Burke is his daughter.
  • I looked again at the ADCC source and scrolled down, and I now see what you're talking about - she is mentioned, apologies, I missed it before. This is a primary source obviously, but it supports the assertion.
  • The Spin Magazine and Now Magazine sources aren't really adding anything - I'd cut them, if I were you. My general advice to people when trying to get a draft accepted is to go for quality over quantity of sources. If there are fifty sources, and forty seven of them are trivial coverage or primary sources, a reviewer might easily miss the three which demonstrate notability. A thousand low-quality sources are easily outweighed by three reliable, secondary sources giving significant coverage. My advice to you, therefore, would be to trim anything that seems trivial, and to present an article that might be slightly shorter, but which is solidly referenced, and which makes it easy for a reviewer to confirm notability either via WP:NAUTHOR, WP:NARTIST, or good old-fashioned WP:GNG. Good luck! GirthSummit (blether) 20:37, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

I just saw this! My apologies. I'm feeling out of my depth. I made edits today and didn't realize you had responded. Thank you—very helpful. Can I give this page to someone else to finish somehow (re: COI)? How might that work? I have definitely been emailing with Tyler about this now (asking for help to try to prove the info from The Star article). I did make some revisions today and now understand (re: above) that I am overreferencing. My intention was to try to prove things (but now see I should be footnoting, not just proving notability, and need to make sure the sources directly validate the claim). I am/was working on a page for Katharine Mulherin also, but am thinking I should give that to someone else also (a KM page is MUCH MORE important than a page for Tyler—and much more complex—and if I can somehow recommend this page to be written, I would love to know more about that process). I did ask (today) for clarity on how to properly include The Star article. The Wayback link to this date is there but nothing exists. I wrote The Star today and they have nothing online beyond 15 years or so (they also fully pulled the Eye Weekly archive offline). Murray Whyte is still a writer if helpful (but no longer with The Star). Link to Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20040711000848/thestar.com And if I can give this to another editor, I am happy to walk away from this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minedramamine (talk • contribs) 20:50, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Minedramamine, I'm afraid that I can't think of an easy way to hand a draft over to another editor, unless you're able to find someone with an interest in the subject who would be willing to take it on. My advice to you would be to do as Barkeep49 suggests - cut this back substantially. Only include information that you can verify with reliable sources - don't try to include everything you know, only include what you can verify. Definitely remove the Toronto Star PDF, and if the PDF is the only version of that article that you've read, then don't use it. On the other hand, if a library near you has an archive of back copies, and you have yourself actually read it the article in print form, then you can could cite it as an offline source. GirthSummit (blether) 12:27, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll remove the PDF link. I definitely saw the article. It's hard to tell online, but it was the cover of one of the big sections so it was noticeable (and a friend worked at the bar where the photo was taken). I was also working at The Star around this time (and had a subscription). This was back when people actually read newspapers, lol...and it was cool that Sweaty Betty's was in the photo. I've made some of Barkeep's suggestions. I'll keep going. Thanks for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minedramamine (talk • contribs) 18:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

sorry

I am sorry of what I did Dmay81 (talk) 08:32, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Counter vandalism

Can I be your students to counter e Hypersonic man 11 (talk) 05:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Hypersonic man 11, hi, and sorry for the slow response, I've been very busy in real life for the last few days. I took a quick look at your contribution history, and I'm not sure that the CVUA course would be right for you just yet. I'm seeing a lot of edits to one particular article, a lot of edits to your userpage, and just a handful of edits elsewhere. My advice to you, if you want to get into editing Wikipedia, would be to spend a few weeks just getting to know how the place works - do some copy editing, improve some sourcing, engage in talk page discussions, read key policies and guidelines, etc. If you're still interested in CVUA after you've racked up a few hundred edits, come back to me. GirthSummit (blether) 19:15, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
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