Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Neith	Resolved	Potymkin (t)	30 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 8 hours
Defense of Sihang Warehouse	Closed	Adachi1939 (t)	11 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours
New Mexico State University and University of New Mexico	New	Alamo NM (t)	1 days, 18 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours
Genesis creation narrative	New	Violoncello10104 (t)	19 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	11 hours	Tgeorgescu (t)	41 minutes

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 13:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Racism against Black Americans

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Rsk6400 on 07:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Racism against Black Americans (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Rsk6400 (talk · contribs)
• Robjwev (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I hold that the current beginning of the second paragraph of the lede ("African Americans have faced restrictions on their political, social, and economic freedoms both during the period of enslavement and after emancipation in the 1860's with segregation and other forms of discrimination.") is wrong because slavery was much worse than "restrictions on ... freedoms". I want to have it removed or changed so that it doesn't describe the situtation of the enslaved majority of African Americans in that way any more.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Racism_against_Black_Americans#Reflecting_prejudice

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Either Robjwev has been unable to clearly explain their reasons for objecting or I have been unable to understand them. Maybe a moderated discussion can help to resolve that problem.

Summary of dispute by Robjwev

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The current overview describes what black Americans went through before and after emancipation. I Agree that enslavement was beyond brutal, but not all enslaved had similar experiences. Not all of the enslaved were on plantations; some enslaved were sex slaves, a majority of women, some men. They faced a lifetime of rape and brutal treatment at the hands of the enslaver and the brothel clientele. Other enslaved were in breeding farms; the fathers were their enslavers themselves. The enslaved were used as lab subjects to advance science and medical fields. But furthermore, the enslaved with specialized skills were given various forms of autonomy; some could purchase freedom. Others traveled abroad with their enslavers only to be forced back into enslavement. Some enslaved were explores that mapped the way west. During enslavement, black cowboys wrangled cattle to the slaughterhouses autonomously and had limited exposure with their enslavers. The editor fails to understand that not all black Americans suffered the same enslaved history; some enslaved escaped north, were freed by enslavers, were the second generation freed, and on some occasions were slave owners too. Northern black Americans or Africans who immigrated to the United States from Europe faced restrictions on their livelihood. Political, social, and economic freedoms difficulties and violence that restricted their movements. Not mentioning them because their struggle did not apply to most black Americans is like not acknowledging Black American history because they are not the "majority" in the United States.Robjwev (talk) 14:21, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Racism against Black Americans discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

I am willing to mediate this discussion, Do both editors agree to participate in this process and agree to the following rules:

1- Editors are to remain civil at all times

2- Editors are to keep their answers concise- approximately 1 paragraph per post is a good goal to shoot for.

3- Editors agree to keep the discussion on content rather than behavior

If you both agree to these parameters- we can start- although, since there are only 2 of you involved- I do want to let you know that WP:3O is a faster available option to get someone to come give an uninvolved editor's opinion and possibly break a stalemate.Nightenbelle (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I do agree. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed Robjwev (talk) 12:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

First statement by Mediator

Okay- I've read the summary and the page discussion. Could you each provide your suggestion for the amended sentence/paragraph? Just what you would like to have published on the page please- commentary will come later. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Rsk6400's Proposal

African Americans have been enslaved from early colonial times until after the American Civil War. Even after emancipation, they continued to face restrictions on their political, social, and economic freedoms, being subject to segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynchings and other forms of discrimination. Thanks to the civil rights movement, ... --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Robjweb's Proposal

Regardless of status,Freedman or enslaved, African Americans have faced restrictions on their political, social, and economic freedoms and other forms of discrimination. Thanks to the civil rights movement, formal racial discrimination was gradually outlawed by the federal government, and gradually came to be perceived as socially and morally unacceptable by large elements of American society. Robjwev (talk) 22:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Second Statement by Mediator

It doesn't seem like we are too far off- honestly just that first sentence. So- are there any points of the other suggestion that either of you 100% object to- and if so, why? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Rsk6400's Comments

Robjwev's suggestion describes slavery as "restrictions on ... freedoms". That is a very benign description of slavery, which in reality was not a "restriction", but a total denial of freedoms, including sexual and personal freedoms. Since the subject of slavery is currently the subject of a heated public debate (especially in the U.S.), we should be very careful here. Additionally, their suggestion removes the mention of emancipation after the Civil War, which fills a whole section in the article's body and should therefore be mentioned in the lead per WP:LEAD. Finally, many African Americans were neither enslaved nor freedmen, but born free. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Robjweb's Comments

Slavery has always been a heated public debate in the U.S. I am flexible on some sentences. "The Mention of emancipation after the Civil War." and coverage of all classifications of black existence in the United States pre and post 1865. Risk6400's proposal was trying to exclude all black presence other than those enslaved, changing this into an article that already exists Slavery in the United States , when it's about Racism against Black Americans . This black experience is mentioned in the article and should be mentioned in the lead WP: LEAD Robjwev (talk) 23:18, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Third Statement by Moderator

Okay- so Rsk6400 wants to be sure that slavery is clearly distinct and mentioned as more than restrictions on freedoms- and Robjweb wants to be sure that we are clear that racism was a factor for Black Americans of all types- not just those enslaved. Honestly- I think you both have the same goal- to highlight the injustices. So how about this as a compromise:17:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Proposed Compromise 1

In addition to being enslaved from early colonial times until after the American Civil war, African Americans, both enslaved and free, have faced restrictions on their political, social, and economic freedoms and other forms of discrimination including segregation, Jim Crow laws and lynching.

Rsk6400's response

That's a great improvement, but there's still one problem, now a logical one: Since enslaved people were not free, they had no freedoms that could be restricted. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

An afterthought: "other forms of discrimination" occurs twice, that seems to be an error. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:09, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

fixed the double other forms.... As far as your logical issue- Slavery throughout the ages had varying stages of restrictions- some slavery was more indentured servitude, some apprenticeships, some were feudal- so there are still degrees of freedom within slavery. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:59, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Our average (English-speaking) reader will have formed their ideas of slavery from slavery as it existed in the English-speaking world, i.e. in the U.S. and the British colonies, not from other forms in other ages. More important: The body of the article makes a clear distinction between the situation before and after the Civil War. This distinction is also present in the memory of the African-American community, e.g. causing the popularity of Juneteenth. So why should we want to lump "enslaved and free" together ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Just to be sure- you feel strongly enough about this to refuse to compromise on this wording? If you do- then we will continue to work towards a solution- I just want to be sure I am clear. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I do feel strongly enough to refuse. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Robjweb's Response

Slave codes is a prime example of restricting the enslaved further than what they were already enduring Robjwev (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Mediator

Since Rsk6400 does not feel the suggested compromise is appropriate- I would like to offer each of you a chance to propose a different sentence that incorporates your ideas as well as the other side's concerns. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Rsk6400's suggestion

In addition to being enslaved from early colonial times until after the American Civil war, African Americans have faced restrictions on their political, social, and economic freedoms and other forms of discrimination including segregation, Jim Crow laws and lynching. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Or, based on Robjwev's suggestion below:

Since early colonial times, Black Americans have faced enslavement, Black codes, racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and other forms of discrimination. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:41, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Robjweb's suggestion

Black Americans have experienced Enslavement, Slave codes, Racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching and other forms of discrimination. Since arriving in the United States.

Thanks to the civil rights movement , formal racial discrimination was gradually outlawed by the federal government and progressively came to be perceived as socially and morally unacceptable by large elements of American society. Robjwev (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Fifth Statement by Mediator

Okay so we are within a couple words of an agreement.

How about:

Since arriving in the United States in early colonial times, Black Americans have faced enslavement, Slave codes, racial segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and other forms of discrimination.

Will that work? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Rsk6400'sresponse

No, absolutely not. The lead shall summarize the article, and slave codes are not mentioned in the article. Black codes are. There is also still the problem of logics: Slave codes were not something additional to enslavement, they were the legal definition of the condition of slavery.

I also see a problem of fairness: For the sake of compromise, I didn't insist on marking the difference between the situation before and after the Civil War, although I still think there are good reasons to do so. I don't think that a wording that is essentially the same as Robjwev's is consistent with the idea of compromising. --Rsk6400 (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Robjweb's response

I don't see the problem with adding Slave Codes into the main article. Slave codes were additional restrictions placed on enslaved black Americans, not the legal definition of the condition of slavery. Risk6400 summary ignores the struggles that black Americans not enslaved in the U.S. faced, for example, voting rights (mentioned in the article), so I don't understand why there's a problem with fairness. Robjwev (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

If we can trust that article, Black codes were the laws that restricted the freedoms of free Black Americans before the Civil War, e.g. voting rights. I don't see where the struggles of those free Black Americans are mentioned in either Nightenbelle's or Robjwev's last suggestions. If Robjwev wants a more explicit mention of free Black persons before the Civil War, I'd be happy to offer another suggestion. --Rsk6400 (talk) 16:43, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Mount Nemrut

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by TagaworShah on 23:18, 30 October 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Mount Nemrut (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• ‎HistoryofIran (talk · contribs)
• Kansas Bear (talk · contribs)
• LouisAragon (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is presently a dispute on whether Antiochus I Theos of Commagene had Armenian ancestors or not, this discussion can also pertain to that page although presently it is located on the Mount Nemrut page. The phrase in question is “ These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks and Persians.” versus “These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks, Persians, and Armenians.” I provided a multitude of reliable sources that say that he did in fact have Armenian ancestors but I’m getting accused of cherry-picking. HistoryofIran has reverted any mention of Armenian ancestors from the article. We need help determining if the sources I have provided here meet reliability and verifiability requirements to support an addition that Antiochus also had Armenian ancestors.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[1]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

A community evaluation from uninvolved editors on whether the sources provided are enough to say Antiochus has Armenian ancestors would be great, it seems as if we all agree the sources are reliable so it’s more of a question of interpretation and weight.

Just to put my two cents as an uninvolved user who has looked up to the discussion linked above (but to be honest it didn't seem very helpful to find a solution, literally WP:BATTLEGROUND), and not having enough knowledge beforehand:
As a general note, to my opinion and experiences, it's kind of problematic to trace genealogical tree of the founder monarch and it's usually disputed, especially if it's very old (in this case, around BC 50).
I may actually suggest that removing the ancestors at all, as there is conflicting information. However, it's also certain that there literally is not any single mentions of Armenia/Armenians "about slabs" on the sources, and the king's page on Wikipedia doesn't mention such connections (though worth noting that page also lacks lots of citations). ahmetlii ^✉ _{(Please ping me on a reply!)} 14:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by ‎HistoryofIran

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

As TagaworShah said himself above, he wants to add “These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks and Persians.” to the Mount Nemrut article, even though the cited sources literally do not support the written info. Moreover, in the inscription/slabs of Mount Nemrut, Antiochus literally himself says this word for word regarding his ancestors; "The Persians and the Greeks: the most fortunate roots of my ancestry" -The Iranian Expanse, page 95; no mention of anything Armenian whatsoever. The full translation of the inscription can be found here [2], remember to click 'continued' down below.

As for those "multiple sources" regarding these "Armenian" ancestors; when one takes a careful look at those sources, it becomes pretty clear that TagaworShah picked brief mentions of a geographic notion of "Armenia" and/or other minor connections, in order to push a partial Armenian origin for the ruling Orontid branch of Commagene which has routinely been described as being a mix of Iranian/Persian/Greek/Macedonian by the vast majority of academic sources. He also initially tried to do the same for the Commagenenian gods [3], though he ultimately stopped attempting that.

Looking at those sources (which I briefly analysed in my sandbox), it also becomes pretty clear that TagaworShah omitted sentences that describe the Commagenenian rulers as being of Iranian stock and their kingdom being linguistically, politically and culturally Greek/Macedonian and Iranian/Persian (such as The Iranian expanse source).

The term 'Armenian' is a geographic one, as the main line of the Orontid dynasty ruled Armenia. Just like Mongol Ilkhanate, who ruled Iran/Persia, were not ethnically Persian just because they are called "Persian Ilkhanids/Persian Ilkhanate" [4]-[5]-[6]-[7]

I have access to all those sources (hell, I possess virtually all relevant books related to Commagene and the Orontids), and will gladly send it to whomever could be interested in looking in to it. One of those sources is the latest Iranica article (came out this month) about the Orontids, which refers to them as of "Iranian origin". The article is written by Margherita Facella, an expert on Commagenenian history. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Kansas Bear

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This is what TagaworShah wants to add/change in the Mount Nemrut article:

• "These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks, Persians, and Armenians."

Just to be clear. The sentence is talking about the slabs at Mount Nemrut and what is inscribed on those slabs. There are references that state the slabs display Greek and Persian ancestors. I have not seen any references stating that the slabs display Armenian ancestors/ancestry.

None of TagaworShah's references state that the slabs found at Mount Nemrut display Armenian ancestry/descent/ancestors. His addition of Armenian without proper referencing is WP:OR. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Foltz 2016, p. 31: “Nemrud in southeastern Anatolia, built by an Armenian king of the Commagene dynasty”; Elsner 2017: “He was a man of Orontid Armenian descent, a family that traced their line back to the fifthcentury BC emperor Darius I, thus claiming both Armenian and Persian Achaemenid origins.”; Brijder 2014: “mixed lineage of Persian-Achaemenid/Armenian, on the one hand, and Macedonian/Seleucid ancestors, on the other”; Andrade 2013, p. 73, 397 “claimed descent from an Armenian satrapal and royal family” “Greek, Persian, and Armenian ancestry”; Stausberg 2015, p. 446 “father of Armenian descent”.

Summary of dispute by LouisAragon

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Hello Nightenbelle and thank you for your time. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much left for me to add right now, as HistoryofIran, TagaworShah and Kansas Bear beat me to it, in terms of introducing and describing the issue. As per the material already posted by HistoryofIran and Kansas Bear, when speaking about the so-called "slab" dispute, I believe its nothing more than a case of failed WP:VER/WP:OR on TagaworShah's behalf. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Mount Nemrut discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Statement I am willing to mediate this dispute- but before I do... The editors are asked for read the usual ground rules. I will restate a few of the rules. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements are usually not helpful, even if they make the poster feel better. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion except in the space for back-and-forth discussion, which is there so that other editors can ignore the back-and-forth. Your replies should be addressed to the moderator, who is asking on behalf of the community. Also read WP:Be Specific at DRN. The purpose of discussion here is to improve the article, so any statements should identify particular parts of the article that are at issue. There has been quite a bit of incivility on that talk page- before we begin- I want to ask if all editors agree to speak only to the mediator, to be civil- meaning do not mention your opinion of the other editor's intelligence, research methods, behavior, interpretation, etc. You are to engage with me, on the subject- supported with sources only. Any deviation from this and I will close this and recommend you go to the ANI. Do all of you agree to this? Nightenbelle (talk) 15:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: I agree to the above preconditions. TagaworShah (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yep, agreed. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement 1

Okay then, lets get started. I'm trying to read through all the sources being disputed now. There are quite a few. So to start with- I'd like to ask TagaworShah to please choose the 3 sources you think are of the highest quality that support your side and directly quote the part that supports your statement- along with a link to the sources so I can review them in more detail. For the other side- I would ask if you have a source that specifically says that tis person DOES NOT have Armenian ancestry- I would ask you to put that forward now. only if the source is a RS and says "Antiochus is not of Armenian Descent." Not omits the word Armenian.... but specifically those words. I understand that many sources say that he was a member of the Oronitid rulers- but do any also rule out Armenian ancestors explicitly. Please do not debate the sources at this time- for now- I'm just trying to see if what can be pulled straight form the sources. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources Supporting Armenian Ancestry

Sure thing! For my first source i’d like to point out that in addition to supporting Armenian ancestry it also does explicitly say that the inscriptions on the slabs of Mount Nemrut show Armenian ancestry.

Source 1: Mack Chahin (2013). The Kingdom of Armenia: New Edition. Vol. 2. London and New York: Routledge. ISBN 9781136852503.

He is best known from the great burial ground which he built on the summit of Nimrud Dagh embellished by giant marble statues of seated gods and heroes. Inscriptions discovered there opened up an important era of Armenian history since Ervand-Orontes I; showing also the Armenian-Achaemenid origin of Antiochus of Commagene himself

Google books link here :[8]

Source 2: Philippa Adrych, Robert Bracey, Dominic Dalglish, Stefanie Lenk, Rachel Wood. Jaś Elsner (ed.). Images of Mithra. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780192511119.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

He was a man of Orontid Armenian descent, a family that traced their line back to the fifthcentury BC emperor Darius I, thus claiming both Armenian and Persian Achaemenid origins.

Google books link here:[9]

Source 3: Brijder, Herman A.G. (ed.) (2014), Nemrud Dağı: Recent Archaeological Research and Conservation Activities in the Tomb Sanctuary on Mount Nemrud. Walter de Gruyter, Boston/Berlin, ISBN 978-1-61451-713-9.

The composed Greek and Persian names of the deities are intentionally chosen by Antiochus, just like the mixed lineage of Persian-Achaemenid/Armenian, on the one hand, and Macedonian/Seleucid ancestors, on the other.

Google books link here:[10] TagaworShah (talk) 19:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources that explicitly deny Armenian Ancestry

With all due respect, why would a source explicitly deny x ancestry? That's not usually how sources work. Same reason as no source denies that the Mongol Ilkhanate were Persians (or say, Swedish or Italian for that matter). Sources usually don't go by what they think x wasn't, but what they think x was. I'm sorry, I don't mean to debate this, I'm only writing this because I don't think there is such source(s). --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:53, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I doubted there was as well- I was just checking, as there are some subjects that have been of disputed ancestry and as such sources do exist that explicitly say- no- they are not this. It would have made this very very easy- and I'd hate to overlook an obvious solution. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement 2

Okay- I have reviewed those sources- and I don't see anything wrong with them- but I'm not a subject matter expert. Would those of you who disagree with them please explain what is wrong with those quotes? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

First off, only one of these sources(Bridjer) was used by Tagaworshah, when he posted his suggested change on the talk page(I have listed the exact sourcing he posted on the talk page including the partial quote, in my section.). And the sentence Tagaworshah wants to add, "These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks, Persians, and Armenians.". It is not simply "proving" Antiochus' Armenian ancestry, we have to prove what sources state is on the slabs, not what we want to say is on the slabs. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Mack Chahin (2013). The Kingdom of Armenia: New Edition.

He is best known from the great burial ground which he built on the summit of Nimrud Dagh embellished by giant marble statues of seated gods and heroes. Inscriptions discovered there opened up an important era of Armenian history since Ervand-Orontes I; showing also the Armenian-Achaemenid origin of Antiochus of Commagene himself

This source at least suggests that there are inscriptions stating an "Armenian-Achamenid" origin at Nimrud. No mention of specifics, slabs, monuments, etc. Should inscriptions be enough to infer they reside on the slabs, Nightenbelle? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Philippa Adrych, Robert Bracey, Dominic Dalglish, Stefanie Lenk, Rachel Wood. Jaś Elsner (ed.). Images of Mithra.

He was a man of Orontid Armenian descent, a family that traced their line back to the fifthcentury BC emperor Darius I, thus claiming both Armenian and Persian Achaemenid origins.

No mention of Nemrud, inscriptions, slabs, or monuments. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Brijder, Herman A.G. (ed.) (2014), Nemrud Dağı: Recent Archaeological Research and Conservation Activities in the Tomb Sanctuary on Mount Nemrud.

The composed Greek and Persian names of the deities are intentionally chosen by Antiochus, just like the mixed lineage of Persian-Achaemenid/Armenian, on the one hand, and Macedonian/Seleucid ancestors, on the other.

Finally the entire quote instead of a a snippet view. Still no mention of Nemrud or inscriptions at Nemrud. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement #3

I must apologize- I missed a key factor in this- That Tagaworshah wants to add a sentence that says the slabs say Antiochus was Armenian.... In that case- Tagworshah- Kansas Bear is correct- you need a source that specifically say "The slab says Antiochus was Armenian." In those words. You cannot take one statement that says "The slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus." and a second one that says "Antiochus was Armenian" and combine those to form one sentence. That is misleading and WP:synthesis which is a form or WP:OR.

So I'm going to have to ask again- do you have a source that specifically says "The slabs display the Armenian heritage of Antiochus."? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Tagaworshah's response

The source currently used to source the claim doesn’t mention anything about “slabs” either. It says:

It is clear from the Nimrud Dag monument that Antiochus claimed Achaemenid descent on his father’s side and Seleucid descent on his mother’s

[11]

So wouldn’t that make it original research and synthesis as it is now? Also, I see the sentence itself as a conjunction of two independent but related ideas that are brought together for the sake of being concise. @Nightenbelle: I see you have expertise in English education so wouldn’t the sentence “These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks and Persians” actually be a conjunction of “These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus. Antiochus’ ancestors are Greeks and Persians”. right? In any case I see an easy fix, change the word “Slab” to “Inscriptions” and that fixes both problems.

Also, I think it’s important that we establish that Antiochus had Armenian ancestry here since on the page Antiochus Theos I of Commagene, when I added 7 reliable sources that explicitly said he had Armenian descent, I was swiftly reverted and got accused of “cherry-picking” and “misinterpretation.” TagaworShah (talk) 15:34, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

This article is not on Antiochus- but on the Mountain. So his ancestry is not the utmost importance for this page. Now, on Wikipedia a sentence can only be conjoined when doing so does not significantly change or affect the meaning or in a sentence completely supported by a single source. In this case- you are taking information from two separate sources and combining them into one sentence- and that is Synthesis which we cannot allow. I'm sorry- but short of a source that specifically says the slabs confirm the Armenian heritage, I'm going to have to close this dispute as your request falls outside of WP policy. So- once more- do you have a source that says the slabs confirm Armenian ancestry?Nightenbelle (talk) 18:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: I don’t understand why we’re overlooking the simple and effective compromise of just replacing the word “slabs” with “inscriptions.” Even though the source Kansas Bear provided confirms that the inscriptions are located on the slabs, I am aware of WP policy that Synthesis is not allowed, however, per WP:WEIGHT the vast majority of sources don’t say “slabs” they just say inscriptions, should the article not follow the lead of the vast majority of sources, in fact only one of the sources say anything about the slabs showing the ancestry, while the rest all say the inscriptions, even HistoryofIran is referencing the inscriptions, saying “slabs” would be giving undue weight to a single source. There are plenty of sources that say that the inscriptions on Mount Nemrut show that Antiochus had Armenian descent. For example:

Brijder, Herman. Nemrud Dağı: Recent Archaeological Research and Conservation Activities in the Tomb Sanctuary on Mount Nemrud. Boston/Berlin: Walter de Gruyter. ISBN 978-1-61451-713-9.

”The priest shall offer rich additional offerings of incense and aromatic herbs, on the altars for the sacred honours of the heroic races” (N141FF). By 'the heroic races' Antiochus means his Persian/Armenian and Macedonian/Seleucid forefathers.

Here Brijder is taking a sentence directly from the inscriptions and explaining that it shows his Armenian descent as well.

Mack Chahin (2013). The Kingdom of Armenia: New Edition. Vol. 2. London and New York: Routledge. ISBN 9781136852503.

He is best known from the great burial ground which he built on the summit of Nimrud Dagh embellished by giant marble statues of seated gods and heroes. Inscriptions discovered there opened up an important era of Armenian history since Ervand-Orontes I; showing also the Armenian-Achaemenid origin of Antiochus of Commagene himself

Again inscriptions show Armenian origin.

Canepa, Matthew (2020). The Iranian Expanse: Transforming Royal Identity Through Architecture, Landscape, and the Built Environment, 550 BCE–642 CE. Oakland: University of California Press. ISBN 9780520379206.

…he [Antiochus] emphasized his fortunate roots among the Achaemenids and Seleucids as well his claims to the Armenian royal legacy

Again talking about the inscriptions.

Therefore my new request is changing the whole sentence to “These inscriptions display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Armenians, Greeks, and Persians.” That statement, falls perfectly within WP policy, contains no original research or synthesis and properly reflects the due weight of what most sources say as opposed to right now where the Iranica source cited for the statement says nothing about any slabs. In conclusion, saying the slabs show the ancestry of Antiochus is giving undue weight to a single source while the majority of sources say the inscriptions show Anthiochus’ ancestry. TagaworShah (talk) 19:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Also, if other editors do not want to replace the word slabs we can easily add another sentence after that one saying “In addition, Inscriptions found at Mount Nemrut also show an Armenian origin of Anthiochus.” That way the article can have a WP:NPOV since it includes the clearly significant viewpoint that the Mount Nemrut monument shows the Armenian ancestry of Antiochus. I think what’s really crucial now as a first step is agreeing that the sources say that Mount Nemrut shows the Armenian ancestry of Antiochus and then either replacing the word slabs with inscriptions or adding a new sentence after the slabs one. I am almost certain that if I were to add a new sentence that says directly what the sources cited above do I would get reverted immediately so I think resuming the process initiated before would be better than focusing on the semantics of a phrase. TagaworShah (talk) 08:39, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Kansas Bear's response

Actually, there is a source located in the "Sources" section of the article that does support what is inscribed on the slabs;

• The Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization, Simon Hornblower, ‎Antony Spawforth, ‎Esther Eidinow, Oxford University Press, page 542;"...Antiochus himself, and the same two series of inscribed relief-slabs portraying respectively his Persian and Macedonian ancestors."

• • "Also, I think it’s important that we establish that Antiochus had Armenian ancestry here since on the page Antiochus Theos I of Commagene.."

This discussion is concerning the Mount Nemrud article. Not Antiochus Theos I of Commagene. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

TagaworShah is under the impression that the inscriptions that mention Armenian are the same as the ones mentioned on the slabs. Yet again, we have no evidence of that. As far as we know, there may be inscriptions that are not on the slabs. Therefore, I am not in favor of removing;

• "These slabs display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Greeks and Persians."
  

Which does have a reference, the one I listed above.

If TagaworShah wishes to add;

• "These inscriptions display the ancestors of Antiochus, who were Armenians, Greeks, and Persians."
  

that is up to Nightenbelle to decide if this DR covers that and what HistoryofIran and LouisAragon think. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran's response

I'm sorry, but why are we still debating something we literally have word for word access to? [12] The inscription is also mentioned in this book [13]. Both The Iranian expanse (p 95) and The Hellenistic West: Rethinking the Ancient Mediterranean (p 213) mentions the The Persians and the Greeks: the most fortunate roots of my ancestry/the Persians and the Hellenes, most blessed roots of my family bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:47, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

LouisAragon's response

@Nightenbelle: Here's another source that attests to the same thing: "The East and West Terraces each contain colossal statues of Antiochus and his syncretized Greco-Persian tutelary deities, dozens of relief stelae portraying the Persian, Macedonian, and Commagenian ancestors of Antiochus...." -- Theresa Goell, H. G. Bachmann, Donald Hugo Sanders (eds). (1996). Nemrud Dagi: The Hierothesion of Antiochus I of Commagene (Volume 1, Text): Results of the American Excavations Directed by Theresa B. Goell. Eisenbrauns. p. 3
- LouisAragon (talk) 00:23, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

UFO sightings in the United States

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Chantern15 on 20:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• UFO sightings in the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chantern15 (talk · contribs)
• JoJo Anthrax (talk · contribs)
• LuckyLouie (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I wrote an entry to the "UFO sightings in the United States" page on UFO sightings in Malmstrom, Loring and Wurtsmith Airforce Bases. I sourced my information as much as possible with reliable sources but did not have inline citations. The article was worked on by user JoJoAnthrax, and I thank the user for working on my entry. And while the issue of inline citations was resolved by JJA, I feel that much of the important information, such as the description of the UFO, the year range of the sightings, the locations where the sightings took place, the change in wording such as the investigation carried out by the USAF for Echo Flight (not Oscar Flight) was inconclusive as opposed to disproven (only the UFO sighting for Echo Flight was disproven and the missile deactivation after investigating was chalked up to a freak accident), there was no investigation around the sighting at Oscar Flight, but all mention of Oscar Flight has been removed, an incident in the future has been pushed back to the past (an incident with objects like helicopters has been changed to helicopters), mention of the helicopters not being recognized by the authorities has been removed, the description of the investigation has been removed, these are amongst the issues present. I would like a third opinion on how to proceed with the information present in my sources to be represented neutrally and proportionally and with the concerns of JJA present. I also understand that the entry had to be shortened and I appreciate the efforts of JJA in this regard. But as the entry stands currently, I feel that it does not faithfully represent what the sources describe. Thank you.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:UFO_sightings_in_the_United_States#Malmstrom_Airforce_Base,_1960s-1970s.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Help us to represent the information from the sources as best possible within Wikipedia guidelines and policies.

Summary of dispute by JoJo Anthrax

LuckyLouie participated in the Talk page discussion here, so they should be included as a party.

The filer's desired content, removed here and replaced here with a new entry, was a poorly formatted and improperly sourced wall of text that did not match the page's extant material or structure. Additionally, of the 15 sources originally included by the filer, three are unavailable to me (e.g., behind a paywall or lacking a functional link), one is a word-for-word replicate of another, and three are credulous, pro-fringe, and non-neutral. Of the remaining sources, Malmstrom AFB is explicitly mentioned in seven (typically only in passing), with Warren AFB, Wurtsmith AFB, and Loring AFB mentioned in only one source each, and always in passing. This indicates that most of the filer's desired content runs afoul of the policies WP:NPOV (particularly WP:UNDUE) and WP:NOT, often fails WP:RS and WP:FRINGE, and contains elements of WP:SYNTH.

Comment by LuckyLouie

I don't have a lot of time for this dispute, but as JJA has pointed out, the issues with the filer's content center around WP:FRINGE and particularly WP:SYNTH. Wikipedia is biased toward science, toward reliable sources, and against conspiracy theories and pseudosciences such as ufology. While reliable sources sometimes indulge in WP:SENSATIONAL coverage of this topic, Wikipedia isn't obligated to give undue weight to, or take at face value, the WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims of Robert Salas and other former military personnel who are activists in the "Disclosure" movement and promoting the idea that the US government is hiding evidence of aliens/UFOs from the public. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

UFO sightings in the United States discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - As the other editor has mentioned, a third editor took part in the discussion, and should be notified. I will open the case for moderated discussion when all editors are notified. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:33, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

LuckyLouie has been notified.Chantern15 (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)chantern15

First statement by moderator (UFOs)

I am opening this case for moderated discussion. The editors are asked to read the ground rules and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements do not always clarify the issues, even if they make the poster feel better. Do not reply to statements by other editors, except in the section for back-and-forth discussion. We know that back-and-forth discussion has not resolved the issue. So address your statements to the community, and to me as representative of the community. Also read WP:Be Specific at DRN. Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. The objective of this discussion is to improve the article, so you need to say exactly what you want to change.

Each editor is asked to start by making a one-paragraph statement saying what they want to add to or change in the article, or what they want to leave the same, that other editors want to change. After the statements are made, we will decide what the next step is. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:09, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

First statements by editors (UFOs)

I would like the entry to be returned to its informative and accurate past version, but with more neutral language, trimming, inline citations and more congruence with Wikipedia policy.Chantern15 (talk) 08:19, 4 November 2021 (UTC)chantern15

I want the current content, which does not have any issues regarding WP:UNDUE, WP:NOT, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE or WP:SYNTH, to be retained. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 16:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (UFOs)

First, is the dispute only about the Malmstrom Air Force Base incident on 16 March 1967? If so, will any editor who wants something other than the current version please provide the exact text that they want?

Second, many but not all of the incidents have sub-articles describing the specific incident. Should there be a very short article on Malmstrom Air Force Base UFO incident? The split would, among other things, permit any dispute to be compartmentalized. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion by editors (UFOs)

@Chantern15. That is still a bit too vague to be actionable. Here is the version you wrote: [14]. Here is the version that has the consensus of JoJo Anthrax and myself: [15]. You can save us a lot of time if you write a version that you feel satisfies the criteria you have described above, and post it here for discussion. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I support LuckyLouie's suggestion, as it aligns well with the earlier suggestion I made to Chantern15 on the article Talk page. The participation of the volunteer moderator in that process would be welcome. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I shall edit the entry which I made (off Wikipedia) and work on a version which I would like to see with the improvements I suggested and post it here.Chantern15 (talk) 19:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)chantern15

Mass killings under communist regimes

– New discussion.

Filed by Cloud200 on 16:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Mass killings under communist regimes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• AmateurEditor (talk · contribs)
• Cloud200 (talk · contribs)
• Davide King (talk · contribs)
• Paul Siebert (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In August two editors (Davide King,Paul Siebert) started making edits in the article that completely reversed the status quo on this sensitive topic. A heated dispute over specific edits followed, which was largely led by AmateurEditor and Cloud200 on one side, and Davide King Paul Siebert on the other. Their position can be summarised as attacking practically every single aspect of the article (while declaring they don't), starting from validity of the very concepts of "mass killings", "communist regimes" and any causal connection between the two. The subject is complex and subject to interpretation, but rejecting it completely is equivalent to denialism since mass-scale extermination of people in countries declaring themselves as "communist" is a well-documented fact, and link between the ideology and these exterminations is clearly demonstrated by large body of primary and secondary sources, all linked in the article.

Both AmateurEditor and myself engaged in the discussion, honestly analysing and responding to every single argument of the opponents, however their position doesn't seem to be impacted by any number of sources or arguments. They ignore any arguments and just continue flooding the discussion with extremely lengthy and verbose comments that are loosely related to the subject and rarely directly respond to the arguments we raised. The discussion thus was unproductive and I have personally disengaged from the discussion after being treated with ad hominem arguments that implied I have no right to take part in the discussion for being from Eastern Europe.

Since September they have practically taken over the complete article rewriting it to their liking, in a manner that is best illustrated by this edit[[16]]: WP:WEASEL, unsourced and WP:POV.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Massive dispute in Talk:Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes, continued to some extent in personal talk pages [[17]] and archived in Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes/Archive 50

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Revert all edits done by Davide King and Paul Siebert since September. Both AmateurEditor and myself were open to discussion and changes to the article, but not a complete and subjective rewrite that turned it from head to heels.

Summary of dispute by AmateurEditor

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Davide King

Siebert gave an accurate summary, while Cloud2000's not only lacks context and assumes that their position is the right one, and we must be some Soviet/Stalin apologists, which could not be further from the truth, but is actively harmful, inaccurate, and misleading — WP:BOOMERANG. Guess what? You stopped discussing, you did not revert me (as I wrote here, everything is sourced in the body, the previous lead was not sourced either, and we need not to source if it is a summary and paraphrase of what the sourced body already says), and eventually my edits have been accepted (see here). The real problem is that some users have a complete lack of knowledge about the topic — see this (the new lead and Siebert's explanation for comparison with the previous lead, this is what users like Cloud2000 actually believes in, even that is OR/SYNTH). It is absurd I have to do this but ...

No one is denying that many, many people have died under Communist regimes, what we are disputing is that this is a scholarly discourse (it is at best only discussed by genocide scholars, which are a minority within a minority, and have not been published in mainstream political science journals, and even then they mostly limit themselves to Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, which are the only ones who fit the most commonly accepted definition of mass killing) or consensus, or that MKuCR is an accurate categorization; the truth is that it is OR/SYNTH the same way mass killings under capitalist, Christian, fascist, Muslim (mockup) regimes, yet we do this only for communism because, as summarized here, "victims of communism" (e.g. the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation) is more of a propaganda topic than a scholarly debate (see this, especially the notes with sources) but many users actually believe in the former and merge the two, when that is far from an accurate summary of the topic, hence the heart of the matter of that article's diatribe.

The new lead is a better and more accurate, though by no means perfect, summary and proper introduction of the topic, which should show how it is has been misunderstood, falsified, and a good source for citogenesis for years (Conservapedia and Metapedia's "Mass killings under Communist regimes" — I cannot link the latter, not Encyclopedia Britannica or any other proper encyclopedia that would establish notability as those users want the article to be structured), which is not a good thing at all. The real issue is that some users have been supporting and defending atrocious policy and guideline violations (NPOV, OR/SYNTH, and WEIGHT), not Siebert and I, who have been arguing in good faith; clearly, one of us must be wrong but I am still not convinced it is Siebert and I. You have yet to show they are wrong in their summary of the dispute and article's problems.

Davide King (talk) 03:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Paul Siebert

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

First, I disagree with Cloud200's description of the conflict, this describes my position in more details. Second, the overall description of the dispute is as follows:

"The article is describing numerous and poorly connected events that happened in XX century in different countries. Numerous publications exist that describe those events separately (Type 1 sources). Some publication do comparative analysis, for example, compare two or more Communist states, or compare one or several Communist states with non-Communists etc (Type 2 sources). And, there is a relatively small group of sources that discuss "Communist mass killing" as a single concept (Type 3 sources). Currently, the article relies heavily on Type 3 sources, and other sources play just a subordinated role, or are completely ignored.

The problem is that the type 3 sources sometimes directly contradict to other sources, and they may contain biased interpretations, use outdated figures and questionable facts etc. Type 3 sources are essentially ignored by country experts, so there is no open disputes between Type 1&2 and Type 3 authors. Even worse, Type 3 sources are unhomogeneous, and they frequently contradict to each other, without saying that openly.

Nevertheless, the article treats the topic as a well defined and universally recognized topic (similar to the Holocaust), which has some common terminology (it doesn't), commonly accepted statistics (in reality, the number of victims is a subject of one's political views, because there is no agreement what category of life loss can be considered victims of Communism), some common causes (which is not true, for most country experts provide different explanations for each case). And it is not a sruprise that this article directly contradicts to Wikipedia articles about almost every individual event taken separately (Cambodian genocide is one obvious exception).

In other words, this article is a single huge POV fork, and that situation should be either fixed, or the article should be deleted. I am comfortable with both outcomes, because all essential information will remain in Wikipedia, in such articles as Mass killing, Democide, Classicide, The Black Book of Communism, Red Holocaust, Great Purge, Cambodian genocide, Holodomor and many others.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

One side note. It seems there is some behavioural issue here. Thus, the filer provides that link as a proof of her attempts to resolve the dispute. As we can see, that post was made by me, and the filer never responded. In connection to that, I am wondering why the filer presents her own refusal to collaborate as my ostensible "ownership" of the article. Not only that is an unprovoked personal attack, it is simply not true.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Mass killings under communist regimes discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors, which is required as part of a filing at this noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:32, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - This case appears to involve both a content dispute that is more extensive than the usual scope of disputes that are handled at this noticeboard, and allegations of conduct violations. The statement of what is being asked appears to include rolling back one to two months of editing to an earlier version of the article. We don't act as arbitrators or as an editorial board. Also, both sides have said that there may be conduct issues by the other side. However, if all editors agree to moderated dispute resolution, I am willing to try to mediate this dispute, with the understanding that it is likely to break down either into one very large RFC or several relatively large RFCs. All editors will have to agree that they will allow me to try to mediate in order to proceed, and I will request that an administrator back up my authority as mediator. After notice is given, the next question is whether the editors want moderated dispute resolution and whether they will agree to set aside any conduct concerns. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:12, 5 November 2021 (UTC)