Talk:Ghost

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Hi, i'm not a real "editer" of wikipedia but do we really think that it is fair to use shakespere as the main picture 1) shakesphere wasn't the first person to describe ghosts 2) it doesn't fit my normal conception of ghosts and when I first saw it I though either KKK or I had the wrong article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.65.59.2 (talk) 18:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Scientific Explaination

The scientific explaination section of this article is quite biased. I am not a ghost expert by any means, but I feel like there should be some mention of the "science" behind ghost hunting, and perhaps state what method these ghost hunters use to track spirits, and why or why not these methods are credible. --Lucius Sempronius Turpio (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The article does link to the article on Ghost Hunting, where their "scientific" methods and equipment are discussed. I'm not sure we want to get into the debate over whether this is scientific, or not, on the "Ghost" page. That's my two cents on ghost hunting. As for scientific explanations regarding what ghosts are, or appear to be, or why people see them or believe in them, I think that is OK for this article, as long as they are properly referenced "real" science, and not fringe pseudo-science. Eastcote (talk) 01:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Most of the supposed "scientific" stuff in this section is the product and propaganda of a self-styled "rationalistic" pressure group called "The Committee for Skeptical Enquiry" headed, not by a scientist, but a "ghost-busting" magician called Randy. It has been well documented that this group has a vested interest and prejudice in favour of skepticism as a philosophical position rather than unbiased scientific research. The magician Harry Houdini was a similar ghost buster of his day. Giving oneself the airs of a scientist does not make you one...Colin4C (talk) 19:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that it needs some scientific ideas for the acutal exsistence of ghosts, not just aganist it, such as the (limited and few) scientific theorys of why an afterlife MIGHT exist. isen't the [policy of wikipedioa to be unbiased? I underst6and that the theorys in questation can only be barely called scientfic. 68.222.134.159 (talk) 04:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of unsourced material.

I deleted the following, which has been tagged for quite some time as unsourced. If someone can find a reference to support it, please feel free to add it back in.

The fetch is "a notion widespread in shamanistic cultures."

Eastcote (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Worldview tag

This article could use some re-org. Its "By Culture" section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost#By_culture

should really organize the entire structure of the article. As it stands, the viewpoint of the article is heavily based upon European and Western beliefs. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

For example, this article - Reincarnation - offers a better organizational structure. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I hear you about the article being heavy on Western European belief...but this is English language Wikipedia. Language, by its nature, has a cultural bias that is hard to get away from, and I'm OK with that. I think it is sufficient to mention other cultural concepts without having to give full and equal weight to all cultures. Eastcote (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Eastcote says it well. This is the English Wikipedia. Western European belief is the cultural normal on here.--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 10:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Definition

Article: "A ghost has been defined as the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person,[1] although in popular usage the term refers only to the apparition of such a person.[2]"

Popular usage?

Oxford Dictionary of English:

--- start quote ---

ghost
noun
an apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image: the building is haunted by the ghost of a monk | [AS MODIFIER] the Flying Dutchman is the most famous ghost ship.

a slight trace or vestige of something: she gave the ghost of a smile.

a faint secondary image produced by a fault in an optical system or on a cathode ray screen, e. g. by faulty television reception or internal reflection in a mirror or camera.

verb

1 [WITH OBJ. ] act as ghostwriter of (a work): his memoirs were smoothly ghosted by a journalist. 2 [NO OBJ. , WITH ADVERBIAL OF DIRECTION] glide smoothly and effortlessly: they ghosted up the river.

PHRASES the ghost in the machine Philosophy the mind viewed as distinct from the body (usually used in a derogatory fashion by critics of dualism). [coined by the philosopher Gilbert Ryle (1949).]

give up the ghost die. (of a machine) stop working.

look as if one has seen a ghost look very pale and shocked. not stand the ghost of a chance have no chance at all.

DERIVATIVES ghostlike adjective.

ORIGIN Old English gst (in the sense 'spirit, soul'), of Germanic origin; related to Dutch geest and German Geist. The gh- spelling occurs first in Caxton, probably influenced by Flemish gheest.

--- end quote --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.76.201.9 (talk) 02:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Ghost ship links

{{editsemiprotected}}

Please change Legends of [[ghost ship]]s have existed since to Legends of [[List of ghost ships|ghost ship]]s have existed since - Ghost ship is a dab page, see also Talk:List of ghost ships#Article organisation.

Please also change and [[List of ghost ships|phantom ships]] have also to and [[List of ghost ships|ghost ships]] have also - for accuracy/consistency. Phantom Ship & The Phantom Ship articles are about an island and a novel. Thanks. 92.1.93.82 (talk) 19:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to link to List of ghost ships twice, so I just removed the link to Ghost ship and kept it bare. When the article says "phantom ships" it isn't using capitals, hence it isn't referring to the island or novel but rather just trying to use another word instead of "ghost." ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Note 68

Note 68 doesn't seem to lead anywhere. A ghost link in fact....Can someone here fix it, as I'm not sure it backs up the text, as the person referred to in the body of article is not the same as the presumed author of the article, unless the latter is referring to the opinions of the former.... Colin4C (talk) 17:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

confused by a revert

I'm confused by this revert. If in fact the authors in question self-admitedly do not engage in scientific analysis, than either that fact needs to be included, of the reference to the National Science Foundation endorsement needs to be removed. Otherwise the article is giving the impression that the opinion is in fact a scientific position when it is demonstrably not. how do we balance that properly? --Ludwigs2 19:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

That edit has nothing to do with this article, hence removed. Verbal chat 19:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

then you won't mind my balancing the paragraph so that it doesn't seem like a scientific position is being offered? --Ludwigs2 20:31, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Please propose your edit for discussion, with WP:RS. Thanks, Verbal chat 21:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

sure, that's simple enough. how about "Ghosts, hauntings, and related paranormal concepts have been characterized as pseudoscientific by the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, an advocacy group founded by scientists under the auspices of the National Science Foundation" using the same source. Please note that the link you provided has little to do with science or scientific investigation directly: it is a section of a chapter about public attitudes towards science dealing with media stereotypes and public beliefs, in a government-mandated publication whose aim is to provide "a broad base of quantitative information about U.S. science, engineering, and technology for use by public and private policymakers." As such it is clearly advocating for political action, and shouldn't be confused with an unbiased source on the material. The NSF has not endorsed the CSI or its message in this section in any scientific way, it has offered the CSI as one means of solving a social problem. --Ludwigs2 03:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I am puzzled by POV pushing revert also. Just to add that the stalwarts of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry are mostly not scientists. Their main man Randi, is a magician with no scientific training. Mr Nickell is a part time magician also, though he has a doctorate...in folklore...By contrast the passage which was deleted was by written by a scientist. Wikipedia says that we shall be NPOV and we shall obey them. Colin4C (talk) 11:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The notion that ghosts and haunted houses actually exist are WP:FRINGE fringe concepts that the article need not be "neutral" about. WP:WEIGHT needs to be given to the mainstream view, for which the NSF reports are an excellent source to identify what scientists consider to be pseudoscientific concepts. I don't see any reliable evidence that either CSI or NSF are unqualified, irrelevant, or politically-motivated groups, but you may want to take that issue to WP:RSN, WP:FTN or WP:NPOVN for a broader airing. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Louie, you've the point entirely. no one is trying to question the true nature of ghosts, here; we are debating a prima facia misrepresentation of the CSI as being far more scientific than it actually is. Please read the actual change I suggested, so that you can see how off-topic your comments above actually are. --Ludwigs2 16:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The CSI involves scientists and there is no misrepresentation of CSI here (apart from the attacks by Colin above). The text colin is adding is an offtopic attack on the CSI - which is not for this page. Colin's accusation of POV pushing is also a personal attack, especially when it is he pushing for fringe edits. CSI and NSF are both RS for fringe topics. I would also add that a doctorate in folklaw is perfect for "ghosts", and Randi has been employed by Nature in the past to help with it's scientific investigations and is a world-renowned expert on pseudoscience and "supernatural"/"preternatural" phenomena. Colin, please note WP:BLP applies to talk page comments. Per WP:COATRACK, WP:FRINGE, and WP:UNDUE, Colin's addition is unacceptable. The misrepresentation comes from minimising the CSI and the scientific mainstream consensus. Verbal chat 17:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

None of that has any bearing on the change I suggested above. I think I'll go and edit it in just to break the mood here and refocus the conversation. --Ludwigs2 17:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It is on topic, it is a response to Colin's edits, accusations, and comments. If you wan to make a subsection on your proposal feel free. Please be WP:CIVIL. Verbal chat 17:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have been being civil, I have made a suggestion on this point, and I'd really prefer not to see any further inflammatory remarks by anyone involved. I am not going to create a separate section just so that people can use this section to continue throwing spitballs at each other. let's refocus on the actual content and drop the scattergun approach, please. --Ludwigs2 17:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Then please desist. Thank you. Verbal chat 17:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

ok, I will take that non-responsive answer as a sign that you have no objections to the change I proposed. would anyone else care to comment? --Ludwigs2 18:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to say that I support your edit, apart from the bit which says that the CSI was "founded by scientists", which is not true, it was founded by a positivist philosopher called Paul Kurtz. I am not going to be drawn into the mudwrestling. More generally the section needs a bit of logic. It is ambiguous whether the denial of ghosts by the skeptics is a denial of the ontological status of ghosts (spirits of the dead? a stone tape?) or a denial that lots of people throughout history have seen strange apparitions. Colin4C (talk) 18:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

well, the proper skeptic perspective is usually pretty straight-forward - e.g. there is no theory accounting for the existence of ghosts that has any properly scientific evidence supporting it, and thus no credible reason to believe in the existence of ghosts. I don't disagree with that perspective, and I suspect that most scientists wouldn't either; I just get tired of people trying to milk it for more than its worth. As far as I can tell, the CSI is an advocacy group for proper scientific understanding, which is a good thing. but trying to elevate them to spokespeople for the entire realm of science is a bit absurd, in a peculiarly 'holier-than-thou' way. science speaks well enough for itself, IMO. --Ludwigs2 19:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The philosophical issues are extremely complex and disputed, which is why I wanted to get down to brass tacks by stating things which can be proved to be true. I.e. whether the CSI conduct scientific experiments (no) or whether they were founded by scientists (no). Give the facts then the readers of the wikipedia can make up their own minds what to believe. Colin4C (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As for Verbal and Louie I urge them to follow this wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view which states that "Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". Colin4C (talk) 08:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The appropriate place for your edit, if editors there agree, is the CSI article and not this one. Please stop trying to insert your biased text that is irrelevant to this article. Verbal chat 08:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of the insertion is to insinuate that the CSI is not representative of scientific opinion. In fact, it represents the views of most scientists quite well. Very few scientists consider paranormal topics still worth investigating. The fact that the organisation is run by administrators and science writers rather than working scientists is unsurprising, and the idea that this renders it illegitimate is silly. For this reason the insertion is misleading. Xanthoxyl ^< 14:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

where exactly are you getting that? I'm not trying to 'insinuate' anything, and certainly not trying to suggest that CSI doesn't represent the views of scientist. --Ludwigs2 16:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who originally added the "endorsed by the National Science Foundation" edit. My use of the word "endorsed" was to indicate that the reference itself was from the NSF using CSI research to show the prevalence of "pseudoscientific" belief. If they use it, goes the logic, they endorse it. The NSF certainly shares the position that such beliefs are pseudoscientific. However, Ludwigs proposed edit, "Ghosts, hauntings, and related paranormal concepts have been characterized as pseudoscientific by the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, an advocacy group founded by scientists under the auspices of the National Science Foundation", looks OK to me. It is perhaps better than my original wording, if CSI was in fact founded under the auspices of the NSF. I believe the "founded by scientists" part to be accurate. All of the founders were not scientists, but scientists were well-represented among the founders. However, having said that, my other two cents is that this is not a forum to discuss CSI. They and the NSF are sufficiently credible to be quoted here. Whether or not they have an agenda, are legitimate, or are themselves "fringe" should be discussed on the CSI talk page. Eastcote (talk) 00:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

My remarks were about the new paragraph which Colin4C has tried several times to add, and the subsequent edit war which prompted the page protection. Xanthoxyl ^< 00:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It is on public record that CSI was founded by a positivist philospher called Paul Kurtz. He was not and is not a scientist. That is a fact. Positivism is an old 19th century philosophy, which went into steep decline in the early years of the 20th century, when scientists like Mach put forward a more sophisticated theory of reality and you had the rise of quantum theory. Some people like Kurtz still believe in the old positivist stuff. Good luck to him, but it is not the mainstream endorsed philosophy of science. Most scientists avoid such philosophising, and those that don't, do not all endorse one particular strand of philosophy. Colin4C (talk) 08:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

After Kurtz founded CSI he was joined by Martin Gardner (mathemetician), Ray Hyman (psychologist), James Randi (magician), and Marcello Truzzi (sociologist). Truzzi, however, was later purged from the CSI, for not toeing the party the line. Truzzi dubbed his former colleagues' position as Pseudoskepticism. These are all facts on historical record. Colin4C (talk) 08:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The list of CSI fellows includes many working scientists (including Nobel laureates). Kurtz is a naturalist philosopher, and the scientific skepticism which he espouses is widely shared by scientists. You are citing facts selectively in order to imply that the CSI's views are unrepresentative. If you believe that the CSI is not a reliable source, then please find a reliable source which will inform the reader of the undeniable fact that the majority of the scientific community does not consider reports of ghosts and hauntings to be plausible enough to be worth serious investigation, and has held this view for centuries. Xanthoxyl ^< 15:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

@ Colin: without explicitly disagreeing with the facts you present (and don't even get me started on Martin Gardner, who is the only person in the world I feel I can reasonably call a 'meddlesome mathematician'), please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Skepticism is actually a decent philosophy, done well, and the issue of whether the CSI had some sketchy founders is largely irrelevant to their current purpose and mission. To my mind, the problem lies where people (be they wikipedia editors or real-world scholars) step over the line from declaiming a lack of evidence to proclaiming a lack of existence. So, a proper skeptical perspective says "there is no scientific theory or evidence to suggest that ghosts are anything more than a cultural construct of some sort" and asks people who believe in ghosts to consider the matter form a rational, scientific perspective. An improper skeptical perspective says "There are no such things as ghosts; science has proved it" and tells people that they are stupid for believing such nonsense. When you start taking poorly-aimed potshots at skepticism as a whole, you'll hit the first version as often as you hit the second, and you'll put off reasonable, clear-thinking people who might otherwise agree with you. You'll do a lot better (here and everywhere) to acknowledge reasonableness where you find it, and to avoid reaching for political ad hominems as a form of argument. just my 2¢, of course, and I don't want to rain on your picnic, but consider it please. --Ludwigs2 18:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I have considered it, which is why I tried to restrict myself to the facts about who and what the CSI is. That matter is capable of investigation. Ghosts are a more difficult area of investigation, and, as you suggest, I don't think the matter should be dismissed in a glib one-liner. Anyway, I hope we can discuss all this without rancour. Colin4C (talk) 10:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the original revert. This is the Ghost article. If people want to discuss the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry in any detail, let them do that at the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry article.

That said, the entire "scientific explanations" section remains deeply flawed, and probably belongs compressed into a very brief paragraph under #Modern_period. This section has been tagged for cleanup for ages, and if it isn't going to make any progress soon, drastic measures will be called for, as we cannot have the article held hostage by such a marginal item. --dab (𒁳) 19:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for the page to get unlocked so that I can begin some largish revisions. Is there a normal practice for requesting unprotection, or do we just wait until it happens? --Ludwigs2 19:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you can be fairly certain that those revisions will be contested, it would be best to propose them here first and let them get discussed and hammered into a consensus version. We don't need anymore edit wars. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

eh, no. You will learn to respect me as an editor or you won't, but I'm not about to start acting as though I need your approval to edit wikipedia. If you feel the need to revert me, so be it, but I trust that you will be thinking about what's correct for the encyclopedia, and not migrating your personal dispute with me across a range of pages. --Ludwigs2 06:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't take it personally. What I wrote applies to anyone. Potentially controversial edits should be attempted on the talk page first. Of course, if you will respect the BRD cycle this time, then go ahead and be BOLD. If someone Reverts you, then you will have to Discuss, without editing the article at the same time. We have seen you do that before, and it didn't give you any good result. Instead it created a huge edit war. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

of-topic material archived
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
lol - the irony. . If you revert me, no worries, I'll discuss the matter as I always do. this time you'd better be prepared to do the same yourself. --Ludwigs2 15:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC) Stop the deviousness. No one has disputed that you'll discuss. Your problem was that you continued to make repeated controversial edits while they were being discussed in a BRD situation. You had it repeatedly explained to you that you should stop editing and stick to discussing until a consensus could be achieved. You refused and continued to force your controversial edits on the article against the advice of several editors. That's classic edit warring. Don't try to make it sound like I did something wrong when I repeatedly tried to get you to stop doing it. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

guys, if you can agree to respect WP:BRD and don't act as it it's "either my version or your version" (it is actually a matter of combining the best from either proposal into an ever more refined revision), I can unprotect this immediately. The current "scientific" section is so bad that there is no need to "protect" it from anything. --dab (𒁳) 10:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

note that if one editor starts making unilateral changes, we let them run into WP:3RR. If an edit war between two or more editor resumes, the page will need to be re-protected. --dab (𒁳) 11:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm willing to abide by BRD, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it. Ludwigs2 has a history of not respecting it and recently engaged in a protracted edit war with a number of editors at the Alternative medicine article. It all ended up here. (I still haven't gotten any indication of any kind that they understand or respect that BRD means one doesn't edit at the same time.) I wish to prevent that, so, considering Ludwigs2's history, the option of 3RR is unacceptable. I think that their history would dictate that they should abide by BRD. If they didn't have such a history, the normal 3RR would apply, but that's not a good option in this case. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I've left a warning on Brangifer's page about his personal attacks against me. I suggest we ignore it and move on with the discussion; if he continues and it becomes disruptive, I'll take it up with the admins. --Ludwigs2 16:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

And I have replied. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

We seem to be back on track. The section is fair enough for what it is, but I am unhappy with it in this article. The problem is, we have a rather nice article on ghosts in anthropology, folklore, history, art, and then we conclude with a section on childish "paranormal" pseudoscience. It destroys the flow. I think this material is misplaced here, it should either grow into a standalone article, or be merged Paranormal#Ghosts_and_other_spiritual_entities. People who think ghosts are "paranormal" and should be explained by magnetism and what have you have not understood the concept, and they would do well to read the remainder of the article attentively.

This is just my opinion. The "paranormal" material is a burden on an otherwise nice article, and it needs to be constrained to a minimum. --dab (𒁳) 22:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, and I'm willing to take a stab at revising it. I've been hesitating because I don't want to stir up controversy (which I suspect will happen if I touch that section), but I guess there's no way of knowing until I try. give me a bit. --Ludwigs2 23:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

sure, there is no deadline. The article can stand as is for a while, the pseudoscience stuff is not the only thing on the to do list, see the other cleanup templates. Now might be a good time to check how other tertiary sources treat the topic.

What we definitely need is more coverage on serious psychological research. Unlike the "paranormal" stuff, these have actual explanatory power and can be respectable.

I am not sure about the "globalize" tag. The "by culture" section already tries too hard to be "global", and adding further bits and pieces on tribal mythologies from Africa, Central Asia, South America, etc. will just lead to an unstructured heap of trivia. --dab (𒁳) 11:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed improvements

The following section is currently tagged and needs improvement:

• Scientific explanations

I would like to make the following changes:

1. It covers different subjects which are blended and therefore needs to be divided. I'd like to place a section heading in the middle of it as shown below in bold caps.

2. The "new" second section needs more sourcing with accompanied tweaks.

3. The Weinstein, Todd, and Nickell quotes will be moved to the first section, thus gathering like with like.

4. The LEAD will need to mention these sections in an appropriate manner, and the word "pseudoscience" should be used. I'll let others propose such wordings.

I will identify my additions in bold italics.

Please do NOT edit this. There is a section for comments go to the workpage linked below. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Ghost/Workpage for the revision under development.

Introduction

The long-standing lead-section introduction was "A ghost has been defined as the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person, although in popular usage the term refers only to the apparition of such a person". This is clearly less than elegant. Currently, we seem to be trying out "In $FIELD, a ghost is the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person that can reveal itself in a number of different ways to the living." But just what is this "field"? Mythology? Folklore? Folk religion? "Traditional belief"? Popular culture? Art and Drama? The fact is that all of the above apply. The level of existence of the idea of ghosts is much deeper, at what you might call the proto-Sapiens subconscious, and hence it is reflected into all aspects of human culture. Thus, we might as well say, "in human culture", or better yet, "in the human condition". This is silly, of course, and I would suggest to drop the "in $FIELD" part altogether. A ghost is the disembodied spirit or soul of a deceased person that can reveal itself to the living. Whether and in way such a thing exists, and what is its ontological status is another question, but that's what a ghost is.

OED:

"[a ghost is t]he soul of a deceased person, spoken of as appearing in a visible form, or otherwise manifesting its presence, to the living."

EB:

"[a ghost is the] soul or spectre of a dead person, usually believed to inhabit the netherworld and to be capable of returning in some form to the world of the living."

combining these two remarkably parallel encyclopedic definitions, "a ghost is the soul or spectre of a deceased person, taken to be capable of appearing in visible form or otherwise manifesting itself to the living."

--dab (𒁳) 12:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

well, the $FIELD variable is misnamed, it should be $CONTEXT; this isn't about academic descriptions. 'Mythology' worked for me, 'popular culture' might be better, but I'm open to rewording suggestions. The main problem here is pragmatic, having to do with misleading constructions. For example, the statement "The ravenous bug-bladder beast is the stupidest animal in the known universe" is factually true within the context of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, but factually unsupportable as a plain statement. Most people with common sense can make that distinction on their own, of course, but wikipedia doesn't generally cater to the 'common sense' crowd. You could try removing the qualifying phrase entirely (I won't object, but I think it will cause strife), or we could go for something like "Ghosts are entities of myth and legend that...'. what would you prefer? --Ludwigs2 14:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

fine, $CONTEXT. The point is that a ghost is a ghost in all sorts of contexts, including but not limited to mythology and popular culture. Unlike the ravenous bug-bladder beast, which must indeed be discussed in context, "ghost" is a common English word with definitions in each English dictionary and applicable in all contexts.

yes, strictly speaking the English noun ghost has even wider application, OED counts 13 entries. But this is about item 8, "now the prevailing sense" of the word.

because I have just cited one notable dictionary definition and one notable encyclopedia entry which can both do without the "in $CONTEXT", I submit that Wikipedia can do the same. --dab (𒁳) 14:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I seem to have stumbled upon some impressive revising of this article. However, I have just one quibble at the moment: I would not equate "ghost" to "soul". As explained throughout Soul#Philosophical views, ever since Socrates, soul has had strong connections, not so much to apparitions of the dead, but rather to the living psyche ("psukhē" is often translated as "soul"). Soul therefore is, by definition, a psychological entity which is (to a debatable extent) undermined by the death of a psychologically coherent being. "Spirit" most definitely would be a better choice; it is, in fact, used interchangeably with the word "ghost" to denote an apparitional entity. I would go a step further and call a ghost a "disembodied spirit", because even though living, corporeal people are said to have "spiritual" experiences, they are not said to possess "ghosts" which benefit from such experiences. Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point. the argument I'd make in favor of some reference to soul is that there is a distinct (if backhanded) relationship in Christian theosophy: as mentioned, ghosts are often thought of as damned souls. however, I'll be satisfied so long as some reference to it is left - feel free to revise it as you see fit. --Ludwigs2 15:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand you mean theology, not actual theosophy? It is true that "soul" is much more of a culturally coloured concept than the generic "ghost", and it is unsatisfactory to define the later in terms of the former. This is, I imagine, why EB says "soul or spectre", but then we have no spectre article to link to, and "a ghost is a spectre" is somewhat tautological.

Fwiiw, the OED has as the meaning of "soul":

"The principle of thought and action in man, commonly regarded as an entity distinct from the body; the spiritual part of man in contrast to the purely physical. ... Freq. in connexion with, or in contrast to, body."

this is what we intend here. The spiritual part of man, or principle of thought or action, as opposed to the body. Christian theology has nothing to do with that. I suggest we say "soul or spirit". --dab (𒁳) 16:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I did mean theosophy, but I was using it in a more general sense; not a big issue. I'm ok with whatever you guys do on this - the point doesn't need much in the way of arguing.

"Soul or spirit" sounds decently complementary to me. On further thought, I agree that something would indeed be missing if "ghost" were equated to "spirit" alone (e.g., physical haunting doesn't quite smack of "spiritual" transcendence). I'll go ahead and make the change. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"soul": "The principle of thought and action in man". "spirit": "The animating or vital principle in man". Doesn't sound all that complementary to me, although I can see the focus is slightly different. --dab (𒁳) 17:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

---

Question about the word 'opaque' - is that really what we're after? I'd have chosen something like 'substantial' instead, I think. --Ludwigs2 17:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

that part is the remaining least elegant of the lead. Opacity (optics) is intended, but it should be put in other terms. "Substantial" doesn't do it because the idea isn't that you can touch the apparition, just that it looks (optically) exactly like the real thing. Not sure this belongs in the intro in the first place. --dab (𒁳) 18:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

How about something like, "and to figures that seem sufficiently formed [or 'solid', 'corporeal', etc.] to be mistaken for the living"? Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I think this would need to be discussed (and referenced) under Ghost#Common_attributes. But we will also need to rethink the current toc. The article isn't bad at all, but it is by no means finished. I think we need to look at its overall structure and possible sub-articles at this point. --dab (𒁳) 19:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Article structure

giving this more thought, I believe the way forward is to divide the article along the lines of folklore and mythology, magic and religion, art and popular culture, anthropology and psychology, spiritism and pseudoscience. Giving perhaps five h2 sections, as follows,

• folklore and mythology, with subsections on both historical civilizations (Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, etc. as well as cultures the world over, Chinese, Aztec, Japanese, Central Asian, African, etc.)
• magic and religion, should address theological points as held by major religions, and scientific approaches to necromancy as current in both Late Antiquity and the Renaissance. These topics are closely related, as Christian theology reacts to the practices of necromancy and vice versa
• art and popular culture, ordered historically as in the current revision
• anthropology and psychology, covering scholarship on the human ethological and/or subconscious mechanisms associated with the topic
• spiritism and pseudoscience, attempts of the 19th and 20th century to cast the topic of ghosts in terms of the scientific method, includes ectoplasm, spirit photography, geomagnetism, infrasound, etc.

--dab (𒁳) 19:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

"Skepticism" now under "history"

LuckyLouie (talk · contribs) moved the paragraph.[1] While this may be a way forward, the current arrangement is still very awkward. We now have "History -> Modern period", and under "Modern period" first "Spiritism" and then "Skepticism". What is even worse is that the "pseudoscience" part is now represented upside down. A ghost story or belief in ghosts is not "pseudoscience", it is a story, or a belief. The actual pseudoscience (geomagnetism, infrasound, etc.) is now presented as if it was part of the rational skepticism out to debunk pseudoscience. This needs to be fixed. --dab (𒁳) 19:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the Spiritism section, with its claims of pseudoscientific investigation of ectoplasm and spirit mediums, is the natural place to follow up with the majority view on those subjects. The infrasound stuff is admittedly up for grabs. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

ectoplasm and spirit mediums doesn't need to be "followed up" by criticism, this should be stated in the same paragraph. This is very difficult to get right. We should perhaps begin by fixing Spiritism and Spiritualism, currently two articles which both say they are identical in scope, but Spiritualism is labelled as a religion while Spiritism is cast in terms of the "study of phenomena". A religion cannot be pseudoscience because it doesn't pretend to be science. This means that mediumship, if taken as a belief, is not pseudoscience. Proposed mechanisms such as ectoplasm are clearly pseudoscience. The magnetism/infrasound stuff is in the same category as ectoplasm, i.e. the attempt to reduce ghost sightings, by definition non-corporeal, to a material explanation.

I think we will need to lose the National Science Foundation quote, as what the NSF terms "beliefs in pseudoscience" does not concern pseudoscience at all. They correctly define pseudoscience as "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility", but then they go on to include clairvoyance, ghosts, mentally communicating with the dead, and channeling. Why these items should be presented as "scientific" and by whom is not made clear. I would argue that clairvoyance, ghosts, mentally communicating with the dead, and channeling, as long as they are not bolstered by pseudoscience of the ectoplasm/geomagnetism sort are not pseudoscience at all but items of folk religion, and the NSF could just as easily have gone on to include belief in angels, or God, the only thing that stopped them was their cultural bias, knowing that they wouldn't get away with labelling theism as pseudoscience in a majority theistic society. --dab (𒁳) 19:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

To me, deconstructing the concept of pseudoscience isn't that helpful, but I respect your desire to get this article right. My view is that the article, especially the Spiritist section, touches on claims sourced to people like David Fontana and the Society for Psychical Research, and the opinions of the NSF per those subjects is very relevant. I've long been a fan of your work here and believe you have the best interests of the encyclopedia in mind, but I respectfully submit that it sounds like you are dreaming of an article entitled "Ghost (belief)" or "Ghost (legend)" rather than Ghost. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

As I say, I think this is rather difficult, and I am trying to find the best solution by discussion, I do not have a fixed idea in mind. What I do have in mind is "Ghost (belief, legend, tradition, archetype)", a.k.a. "Ghost". The Society for Psychical Research is obviously of historical interest, and I really fail to see why the NSF in particular should be relevant to that. For some reason, it appears, people feel they need to counter-punch against spiritism much more than against, say, classical mythology. We don't need a dedicated section explaining that there isn't really a physical river known as Styx where the dead are ferried across, and that the NSF has denounced belief in classical mythology in stern words. So why should we need dedicated sections to "debunk" 19th century spiritualist movements? And if "debunking" is felt to be necessary, why in a separate "skepticism" section and not worked into the relevant portion of the article? If you feel Fontana or other works cited are less than encyclopedic, feel free to either tag them with {{verify credibility}} or just remove them. --dab (𒁳) 15:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

looking into the background of David Fontana, I expect he is going to be one of the more quotable paranormal researchers. --dab (𒁳) 15:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

well, if you ask me, we could probably dispense with the headings in the 'Modern Period' section and wrap the skepticism into the other material. essentially, we'd talk about all the funky things people have done in the 19th & 20th centuries to try to 'prove' that ghosts exist, close with a couple of sentences which say that all of that boils down to misconstructed pseudoscience, and drop the remaining material as superfluous. that is, unless you want to move the geomagnetic stuff up as a kind of ultra-modern form of pseudoscience... --Ludwigs2 17:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good in principle. I tend to favor integration rather than relegating the scientific skepticism to a "criticism ghetto". Also, if memory serves, the geo and infrasound stuff sources back to the Society for Psychical Research, so it could possibly be moved to parapsychology, ghost hunting, paranormal, or some other relevant article. As far as the NSF not being relevant, I don't agree, but some wider opinion on that matter would be useful. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I don't think the NSF is 'not relevant' - I rather like the NSF (and not just because they've given me money - lol). I do think they just get misused a bit by WP editors. Would scientists as a rule generally hold that ghosts don't exist? probably yes. would the NSF say that there's no empirical evidence for the existence of ghosts? almost certainly, though I don't know if they 'have said that explicitly. would the NSF decry the belief in ghosts as pseudoscientific claptrap? doubtful - the NSF isn't given to indulging in speculation or social judgements of that nature. The NSF is going to very carefully distinguish pseudoscience as 'research modalities that fail to meet rigorous scientific standards', and isn't going to extend the scientific criticism to the related non-scientific belief structures. Ectoplasometry (assuming there is such a thing) is pseudoscience; seances and ouija boards aren't (unless someone tries to elevate them to the status of scientific proof). let me try a revision in a bit, and feel free to revise or revert if you dislike it. --Ludwigs2 19:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

NSF issues aside for the moment, I found the Persinger infasound/geomagnetic stuff actually sources to the BBC here and here, so it may have relevance to this article after all. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Context of NSF statement

These comments are a continuation of discussions above....

Just to make sure we know what is being referred to by the NSF statement.... Here is the actual sentence they use before their reference 29:

• "Nevertheless, about three-fourths of Americans hold at least one pseudoscientific belief; i.e., they believed in at least 1 of the 10 survey items (similar to the percentage recorded in 2001).[29]"

Then comes our statement, based on that and their ref 29:

• The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, considers the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as belief in ghosts and spirits, to be "pseudoscientific beliefs".

Have I summarized that source wrongly? If not, then what's the problem? I consider the NSF to be a more reliable source than an editor's opinion. I see their statement as a pretty good summation of items that can be termed pseudoscientific beliefs. Any belief, including religious ones, that make falsifiable statements, are potentially pseudoscientific beliefs. Even if we could philosophically pick their opinion apart, they are a reliable source that should still be cited, and our disagreements with them would just be uncitable OR that shouldn't influence how we construct the article. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think this is a question of whether you've summarized the source incorrectly. I do think you are giving too much emphasis to what strikes me as a casual use of the word 'pseudoscience'. strictly speaking, 'pseudoscientific belief' could only mean a belief derived from improper scientific claims: a belief in Deadly Orgone Radiation, for instance, would be pseudoscientific, because the scientific claims and research that look for orgone are clearly pseudoscience. However, it is not at all clear to me that most people's conceptions of ghosts owes anything to the pseudoscientific attempts to identify ghosts. Your analysis is far to broad - for instance, it would cast any belief in God as pseudoscientific, as well as any belief in life, or social structures, or identities. is that what you meant to do? --Ludwigs2 06:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm just quoting from the NSF's yearly document about pseudoscience, and that's a pretty notable source. What I mean about it is rather irrelevant. I must bow to the source. I suspect they understand the matter better than any of us. We just need to avoid OR in this matter, and using such a RS is a good way. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

OR is a tricky thing: you know that as well as I do. My concern here is that this quote is being used out of proportion to support a position that the NSF would not itself support, and one that is not explicitly outlined in this document. please note that this is not a 'yearly document about pseudoscience' but a yearly document about 'public attitudes and understanding about Science and Technology' - it is concerned with media and education, not with scientific standards, and doesn't try to outline standards for or definitions of pseudoscience. I don't doubt that the NSF would consider the idea of ghosts 'flawed' at best, and would consider most research into the topic pseudoscientific, but I doubt they would go so far as to condemn the very idea (given the utter lack of evidence surrounding the issue), and they certainly wouldn't support language that outright refutes conventional religious and personal beliefs. I don't dispute the quote, I'm just leery of over-reading it, if you see what I mean. --Ludwigs2 08:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that "... hold at least one pseudoscientific belief...[29]" is pretty clear language. Otherwise you're correct that it isn't the document, but the section Belief in Pseudoscience which they include each year. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

And Einstein once said that 'God does not play dice with the universe', which does not make him an opponent of legalized gambling. I hope you're not suggesting that we take a fundamentalist interpretation of NSF texts?

Look, if you really want to make this case, then I would expect to see some secondary sources which suggest that the NSF is actively engaged in researching and refuting paranormal beliefs. what you have here is a single primary source, and there are limits to how far that can be stretched. Clearly there's evidence that the NSF and scientists in general don't take it as far as you're suggesting they do: even with the uber-case of creationism, scientists were (for the most part) careful to distinguish creationism as a pseudoscientific theory from Christian religious beliefs more broadly put, despite the fact that they could have debunked the entire faith using the kind of logic you've used above. right? --Ludwigs2 16:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ludwigs2 above, this is a very casual usage of the term "pseudoscience". The NSF is a United States government agency and was doing a survey of US demographics. This is notable exclusively in the context of "belief in ghosts in the USA", and of very limited relevance to the topic of "ghosts" in general. We already have a statement that "about 32% of Americans 'believe in the existence of ghosts'." If people insist, we can put the reference to the NFS next to that, and mention that the NFS lists this item in the class of "pseudoscientific beliefs". What we cannot do is use this survey in an argument on the nature of pseudoscience.

The reference cited does not, as claimed above, invoke any "scientific consensus" against "the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead". I do not believe there can be any "scientific consensus against the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead" any more that there can be a "scientific consensus against the claimed ability of people to communicate with God". There can only be a scientific consensus against specific proposals of underlying mechanisms that allow such communication. There is a world of difference between the two. The word "consensus" doesn't even occur in the source, so this is a clear case of misattribution. The only thing the source can be used for is the inclusion of "communication with the dead" under the class of "paranormal phenomena" (while, for some reason, nobody seems to be inclined to include prayer under 'paranormal phenomena'). I am not objecting to the NFS source for what it is, I am objecting to the misguided and tendentious use it is being made of in this article. --dab (𒁳) 17:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm in full agreement with Ludwigs2 and Dbachmann. In a nutshell, a sentence fragment, such as "pseudoscientific beliefs such as X", is not equivalent to the proposition, "all instances of X are pseudoscientific." For instance, suppose that the NSF had said the following: "Nevertheless, about three-fourths of Americans own at least one farm animal; e.g., they have a goose." This statement does not mean that all geese live on farms; it simply demonstrates the use of a descriptor ("farm") to indicate a degree of semantic coherency among the items it describes. Presumably, the NSF somehow, and to some degree, associates paranormal beliefs with pseudoscientific methods. But they probably do not mean that all believers are by definition pseudoscientists. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The comments above led to the creation of the following RfC... Brangifer

RfC: Context of NSF statement about belief in ghosts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm closing this RfC as National Science Foundation is a reliable source for stating that "belief in ghosts and spirits" are "pseudoscientific beliefs." Editors should keep in mind that the NSF position on this is meaningful, notable, reliable and scientific. This does not mean that other verifiable and widely, reliably published outlooks cannot be cited, so long as WP:UNDUE has sway. Likewise any assertions as to current scientific consensus. The consensus may be wrong (research on how people come up with notions about ghosts may not be deeply understood), but en.Wikipedia is not about truth, it's about verifiability. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Rfctag 1. Please weigh in on whether the National Science Foundation is a reliable source for stating that "belief in ghosts and spirits" are "pseudoscientific beliefs".

2. Also please discuss whether their expressions can be considered to represent the current scientific consensus (in the USA) on that subject. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that the comments above this RfC laid the foundations for its creation. Some comments below refer to comments above, so read them too. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

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• Support. The NSF is clearly a reliable source for such claims, and their expressions can be considered to represent the current scientific consensus unless a significant number of other scientific organisations disagree. Verbal chat 17:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Coming here from RSN. Verbal states it perfectly, and all I can do is repeat: The NSF is clearly a reliable source for such claims, and their expressions can be considered to represent the current scientific consensus unless a significant number of other scientific organisations disagree. THF (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Yes, the NSF is a reliable source on this. The distinction between pseudoscientific beliefs and mystical beliefs is not hard and fast--a belief in the supernatural, in the absence of a scientific framework and standards to weigh evidence, is both. Ghosts are just one example. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 17:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I'll stick my oar in here to say I'm not convinced by arguments above that equate belief in ghosts to belief in God as a black and white proposition. Admittedly, it could be argued (by us) that a belief can't be a science, and therefore can't be a psuedoscience, yet the NSF report very clearly characterizes belief in ghosts and haunted houses as "pseudoscientific" so that's what I feel the article should reflect. I also think the NSF report is a very reliable source for scientific consensus as it applies to pseudoscience. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I agree that the NSF is a reliable source regarding concepts presented as science, in terms of whether they actually represent science or pseudoscience. While the sentence quoted above, taken out of context, raises questions about whether the present issue (of ghosts as psuedoscience) is being given undue weight for that source, a more complete reading of the cited text and the prior versions (e.g. 2002) make it clear that each of the claims (including belief in haunted houses and ghosts) is considered pseudoscientific. The text repeatedly refers to these claims as pseudoscientific. -- Scray (talk) 01:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The text of http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/c7/c7s2.htm#c7s2l3 is quite clear that it considers belief in ghosts to be one of the ten definitive pseudoscientific beliefs, and the NSF is a reliable source for this purpose (identifying what is a pseudoscience).

• To answer Cosmic Latte's goose argument, the equivalent statement would not mean that all geese live on farms, but it would mean that a goose is a farm animal, even if one happened to be in a zoo, the same way that man is a two legged animal, even if some men happen to have lost one or both of their legs. That does not make someone who believes in ghosts a pseudoscientist, but that's just because people who hold pseudoscientific beliefs are no more pseudoscientists than people who hold scientific beliefs are necessarily scientists; they can be astronauts or hairdressers. But a belief in ghosts is clearly considered a pseudoscientific belief.
• In response to DBachmann's comment about ability versus mechanisms, that is also not correct. There can absolutely be a scientific consensus that some things are not achievable by any mechanisms, for example travel faster than the speed of light. Communication with the dead seems to be one of these.
• Finally, in response to Lugwigs2, please note that belief in God is not mentioned in that document, so bringing it up is an irrelevant distraction to this specific question. The concept of God is much more complex than belief in ghosts; for one thing, most religious systems claim to be beyond not only measurement but even logic, so it's not clear that it's theoretically falsifiable. --GRuban (talk) 03:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• To that last point (about God) I think it's important to note that NSF specifically addresses beliefs presented as science. Any source presenting evidence for God as science would fall within the domain of the NSF and other reputable scientific bodies. -- Scray (talk) 04:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Exactly. That's why normal religious and metaphysical beliefs don't qualify for inclusion in the List of topics characterized as pseudoscience, but some of their applications do. For example, the subsection about Religious and spiritual beliefs includes Scientology's Dianetics, and Fundamentalist Christianity's Flood geology, and should also include Christian Science. Other beliefs that are included elsewhere in the List are Vitalism, chiropractic's Vertebral subluxation, Innate Intelligence, and Applied kinesiology, as well as TCM's Meridian (Chinese medicine) and acupuncture points. These are all falsifiable beliefs being presented by professions as biological facts, and thus they are pseudoscientific. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The NSF report is unequivocally reliable for stating that belief in ghosts falls under the rubric of pseudoscience. Likewise, absent any report of similar reliability, this conclusion should be presented as scientific consensus; period; full stop. At the risk of furthering the very digression I would like to avoid - Brangifer, part of the above is quite a bit off topic, and even as an atheist I feel the urge to argue it (not strongly enough to actually do so, mind you, just the urge). - 2/0 (cont.) 10:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC) My distracting comment removed per 2over0's comment. Brangifer (talk) 04:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. no it isn't? A discussion isn't just about repeating your point as if it somehow became better the more you repeated it. It is also about trying to grasp what the other side is saying. The entire point is that ghosts by definition are not part of "the physical, testable universe" as Brangifer puts it. I would really deplore it if this now degenerated into your average online debate on naive concepts of atheism vs theism. As Scray acutely observes, the NFS specifically addresses "beliefs presented as science". When they say "belief in ghosts" under a heading of "pseudoscience", they implicitly mean "belief in ghosts presented as science". The NFS is not to blame if some people attach too much weight on a literal exegesis of their report. Belief in ghosts presented as science is pseudoscience (that's what the NFS states as a matter of course, and what I propose is a very obvious and undisputed point). Belief in ghosts as long as it is not presented as science cannot be pseudoscience, as the NFS is very well aware, does imply in its definition of pseudoscience, and expects its readers to realize as a matter of course.

if people insist on constructing a definition of "pseudoscience" based on the casual wording on the NFS report that flies in the face of the very definition of pseudoscience presented in the same report, this is a huge WP:REDFLAG, and will require excellent, published, peer-reviewed references addressing the definition of pseudoscience directly. So much time can be wasted on Wikipedia because some editors think they can present an isolated soundbite and then play at WP:IDHT. --dab (𒁳) 11:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry, dab. We're not allowed to do our own analysis of sources and decide they're self-contradictory. That's called Wikipedia:Original research. We have to wait for another reliable source to say that. By the way, the NSF report is an excellent, etc., reference addressing the definition of pseudoscience directly; that's exactly what we've all been asked here to weigh in on.--GRuban (talk) 15:06, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm puzzled by dab's invocation of WP:REDFLAG. My reading of that guideline suggests that fringe theories require exceptional evidence. Refutation of pseudoscience by the NSF is certainly not a fringe theory; on the other hand, the existence of ghosts is. Thus, I'm not sure whether this guideline is being used to support the NSF's characterization (which would be appropriate) or to refute it. Similarly, the invocation of WP:IDHT seems to be a non-sequitur, since I see no evidence for a consensus against the point 2/0 is making. -- Scray (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. [edit conflict] Well, pardon my jumping in, but if we're going to analyze the sources, it's better (I would think) that we do it on the talk page than that we do it in the article. The article seems to want to assume something like the following: A) The NSF includes a belief in ghosts in a list of surveyed beliefs. B) The NSF, in passing, refers to this list as a group of "pseudoscientific beliefs". C) The NSF may be taken as a valid representative of scientific consensus. Therefore, D) The scientific consensus is that a belief in ghosts is pseudoscientific. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that A, B, C, and even D are true. The problem is that, by the time we come to D, we've done too much work. More precisely, we have made "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source", and we therefore have have violated a key part of WP:PSTS. Of course the NSF is a reliable source. We should be able to hold it in high enough esteem to suppose that, if the NSF wanted to say, "The scientific consensus is that a belief in ghosts is pseudoscientific", then the NSF would come right out and say this. But that's not what they said in the source provided. What they "said" about ghosts is fragmentary: Ghosts show up in a list, and the list shows up in discussion. If dab's argument is "original research", it is because he has taken the extra effort to show that the article's own original research--in addition merely to being original research--is flawed, insofar as the article has put together a dubious semantic puzzle from the pieces it has cut out of the NSF source. The dubiousness, he says, is in inferring that the NSF intended a simple equation--an axiomatic subject complement--of ghost-belief to pseudoscience. My A-D-C-D argument about WP:PSTS acquires the phrase, "in passing" from the arguments that dab and Ludwigs2 have set forth. But whether or not that phrase is warranted, the basic PSTS problem remains. If the scientific consensus is indeed that any belief--even a religiously based belief or a private conviction following some personal experience--in ghosts is pseudoscience, then surely somebody would have said so in a reliable, secondary source. As it stands, even the primary source doesn't explicitly go this far (i.e., as far as A, B, C, therefore D). Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• The splitting into parts A-D is a straw man. That the NSF is a reliable source is a criterion for using the source, not part of the analysis of the source. It is clear from that source that the NSF includes beliefs in ghosts/haunting as pseudoscientific. This is not WP:OR. -- Scray (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• That the NSF is a reliable source is implicit in its mere inclusion in the article. The OR (subtle as it may be) lies in the article's invocation of "scientific consensus". While there may be nothing wrong with the facts of this invocation, there is something disproportionate in the emphasis. The source, while incidentally reflective of scientific consensus, is not directly about that consensus--it's about popular beliefs, which (according to the source) contrast with other popular beliefs (i.e., popular respect for science contrasts with popular acceptance of pseudoscience). The NSF is not trying to set forth its own view (i.e., the scientific consensus) about what qualifies as pseudoscience; it's suggesting that the public has views that contrast with the public's other views. Speaking of contrast, if we interpret the source as making a blanket classification of ghost-belief as pseudoscience, then we force the source to contradict itself. The source states, "Pseudoscience has been defined as 'claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility'". The source also refers to "pseudoscientific beliefs" held by the public. However, if we read "pseudoscientific beliefs" as having the same definitional force as the quote in the preceding sentence, then we pit one definition against another. The average believer in ghosts does not present his beliefs as science (does he?). A child who is afraid of ghosts does not attempt to justify his fear by scientific methods that he has yet to learn about! The source defines pseudoscience, and then refers to "pseudoscientific beliefs" that do not meet their own definition of pseudoscience, because these beliefs are not presented as science. I can think of only one reasonable explanation for the paradox: The NSF means different things by "pseudoscience" and "pseudoscientific beliefs". By the former, it means "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility". The latter, however, has to be shorthand for something like, "beliefs [by some people] in claims that have been presented [mostly by other people] so that that they appear to be scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility". The article is putting into scientists' mouths some fairly bold words that not only treat this shorthand as though it were longhand for something else, but which also contradict the longhand definition that the scientists already provide. Cosmic Latte (talk) 17:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I might suggest something like the following as a sort of compromise, though:

• Current version: "The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, considers beliefs in an ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as in ghosts and spirits more generally, to be pseudoscientific."

• Suggested alternative: "The National Science Foundation considers beliefs in an ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as in ghosts and spirits more generally, to be consistent with pseudoscientific conclusions, and to contrast with the public's respect for scientific methods."

How about something like that? Besides, it might even allow a scientific method wikilink to sneak itself in. Cosmic Latte (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• The current version is far superior from an encyclopaedic viewpoint, gives the correct view of the scientific community, and is supported by the sources. Verbal chat 17:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• But, the alternative version is a horse's leg--and, in the preceding discussion, I've attempted to say why. Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. [outdent] I agree with Verbal here. Of the two options listed above, the one labeled "Current version" is superior. The second engages in WP:WEASEL words so that it's more wordy with less said in the process. DreamGuy (talk) 18:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Which words are the weasel words? WP:WEASEL cautions against excessively vague phrasing, not against lengthy albeit meticulously accurate prose. Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. I need to point out that this RfC is badly formed, for the following reasons:

1. no one in the discussion (that I've seen) disagrees that the NSF is a reliable source for the given statement, which is a matter that is directly attributable.
2. no one in the discussion disagrees that the NSF is (in general) a good source for representing the scientific community.

The actual dispute point is over whether this NSF citation should be taken as a general statement that indicates the scientific community opposes pseudoscientific research (which everyone agrees with), or whether it should be extended to suggest that the NSF is actively engaged in efforts to refute or debunk paranormal beliefs broadly put (something which is not suggested by any scholarly sources). With that in mind I am closing this RfC as resolved, and ask that brangifer reopen the RfC on the substantive question. --Ludwigs2 20:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have reopened the RfC, I don't think you should unilaterally decide it's the wrong question when we all seem to think it's fine. Verbal chat 20:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed. Ludwigs2, your summation is itself somewhat flawed and uses straw man arguments. You fail to state in your summary that you and two other editors all thought that the NSF was just plain wrong, and that I was simply following the source, rather than engaging in such OR. You may have had something else in mind, but the arguments used by yourself, dab, and Cosmic Latte were dissing the NSF for its clear statement, and engaging in personal speculation and OR of why it was wrong, all heading towards removing it from the article. If that had ever happened I can't know, but it looked that way to me. Since such an important matter needed wider community input, I opened this RfC, which is supposed to do exactly that. We now have a number of previously uninvolved editors who accept that the NSF is a reliable source for such a statement, that it summarizes the scientific consensus, and that their statement is accurate. No one has claimed that they engage in "research". They don't have to. That's a straw man. They know of paranormal research, but they also understand the scientific method better than advocates and researchers of the paranormal, and thus they can state that such beliefs are pseudoscientific in nature. The RfC remains open for more comments. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• That deletion of this RfC has had a very disruptive effect, in that it triggered the bot to remove it from the three RfC watchlists on which it was listed. It will get relisted, but there can go many hours before that happens, during which time more input will be delayed. Unfortunately (but for good reason) it's not possible to revert those bot deletions. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• It looks like the bot restored it pretty fast, so not much disruption was caused by a long delay. "Good bot! Here's a doggy biscuit." -- Brangifer (talk) 02:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

look, if you guys want to have an RfC on the issue, feel free - I will myself agree with both of the points raised in the RfC question, as will almost everyone else. and then I will turn around and make exactly the arguments I made prior to the RfC about why the cite cannot be used in the way it's being used. the RfC does nothing to resolve that issue, and merely creates an opportunity for a whole lot of useless, off-topic discussion of broader pseudoscience issues.

I thought I was helping you guys focus on the correct issue, but by all means if you want the opportunity to vent about side issues, please continue. I will wait until this particular exercise in distraction and futility is over, and then I will go back to the original issue.

I recommend to all participants in this RfC to please keep focussed on the actual issues raised by the RfC, and not let it stray into side disputes. that way the RfC can be finished fairly quickly. no one really disagrees with the points raised anyway. --Ludwigs2 00:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Instead of getting bogged down by dwelling on what seems like your version of IDHT (actually stated more like "I won't hear that and will ignore it..."), I'll focus on something you say that might help us make progress. (It wouldn't be very constructive if you choose to ignore this RfC and return to old errors.) Above you mention "...why the cite cannot be used in the way it's being used." Please elaborate. You didn't say why, but you have said it before, and none of the participants here have considered it a valid argument or worthy of comment. Try to rephrase it here in such a manner that they can respond to it. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Actually, I did elaborate, quite extensively, in the section immediately preceding the RfC. in that section, I made it clear that (1) The NSF did in fact say what you say it said (agreeing with point 1 of this RfC), and (2) the NSF is clearly a well-renowned source for scientific opinion (agreeing at least partly with point 2 of this RfC). The problem on this article is that the citation comes from what must be treated as a primary source, and that source is a statistical work on public attitudes towards paranormal beliefs (which is one section of a larger work about the status of science as a whole). aside from the one or two or three comments in this section, I do not think there any other mentions of pseudoscience in the primary source document, there is certainly no indication that the use of the terminology is anything more than an off-handed colloquialism, and there are no secondary sources whatsoever which indicate that the NSF is actively engaged in or concerned about paranormal 'beliefs'. Their main concern (which I think could be sourced extensively) is in combatting clear pseudoscience - claims that masquerade themselves as scientific research without proper testing procedures. As I mentioned above, The scientific community in the creationism debate restricted themselves to refuting the pseudoscientific claims of creationism; they did not extend the debate to attempts to debunk Christian beliefs as a whole. If you want to use the NSF quote on this article (which I have no objection to) it can only be used to counter actual efforts at pseudoscience; trying to extend it beyond that starts to violate wp:SYN. --Ludwigs2 02:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• And that happens to violate OR. We can't close the RfC with you holding this attitude. If you can convince the community that there really is a SYNTH issue here, then try starting another RfC on that subject, but note that doing so might be considered stonewalling and further disruption. I guess it depends on how you word it. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Response to the request for comment, NSF is a reliable source. It is very obvious, there is consensus, why are editors arguing about it? Please close this RfC, it is resolved. MiRroar (talk) 15:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. NSF is a reliable source and reflects the scientific consensus in the United States. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• yeesh... can someone please close this RfC as resolved? I'd do it myself, but it seems that every time I try to do anything sensible on this article a number of editors start screaming and kicking like I took their favorite toy away. --Ludwigs2 16:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Your comments above (02:36, 1 March 2010) indicate that you have no intention of agreeing with the results of this RfC and will resume where you left off. The RfC can hardly be closed with such a threat hanging over the article. This RfC was supposed to result in less disruption and stonewalling, not IDHT and a return to the previous state of affairs. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. At the risk of adding another redundant comment, I think the consensus here is very clear. NSF are a reputable source on the topic of what fields of study are and are not science. It's very clear that NSF's opinion is that ghosts and ghost-hunting is a topic of pseudoscientific enquiry, and not scientific inquiry. I agree with User:BullRangifer. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. To respond to the questions posed above: Yes, the NSF is a reliable source for stating that belief in ghosts and spirits is pseudoscientific, and yes, their expressions can be considered to represent the current scientific consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The NSF is sufficiently reliable to support those statements, and I don't know how people can't argue that it isn't. I am opinating here since people is still edit-warring over the sentence, this arguing about notability. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

• PLEASE CLOSE THIS RfC and the one at WT:NPOV, and then block those who then refuse to abide by the RfC consensus. This disruption, forum shopping, and the incessant harassment against myself here and elsewhere by these few editors are insufferable violations of multiple policies. This little gang needs to be placed in a wikijail for some time. How about topic bans for them all and letting them know that harassment, including revenge RfC/Us, will not be tolerated? -- Brangifer (talk) 19:24, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• Object. This silly RfC is simply BullRangifer's attempt to push through inaccurate language supported by a misquotation. See Talk:Ghost#No less than three problematic lead sentences on ghost "research" and pseudoscience below for a (so far promising) attempt to get a real consensus version that addresses this problem and doesn't push any POV. Closing this RfC does not seem a good idea. The RfC was never about what it claims to be about. Everybody agrees about statements 1 and 2. The real issue is whether it is admissible to pick random claims out of random NSF documents in a quote-mining fashion (having to assemble bits from the main text and bits from a footnote to get what one wants) and then to present the resulting statement A as if an NSF commission had worked on such a statement for a year and then published a paper A holds! and made a press release about it. Unfortunately I see no chance that BullRangifer will be sanctioned for this gaming. Hans Adler 20:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hans, that's a very deceptive misrepresentation of the facts, which are attested to by the multiple supporters of this RfC. I would never be able to fool them with such shoddy tactics as you propose. Your consistent failures to AGF are affecting your judgment. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

geez, you never stop, do you? Hans has it exactly right - give it up already. --Ludwigs2 23:37, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• (ec) You seem to have missed that nobody contradicted the statements in your RfC, not even a single of your opponents in the underlying dispute. That's a clear sign that you haven gone off on a tangent unrelated to the dispute. What they did was "disagree" with the RfC itself rather than oppose the statements. Hans Adler 23:42, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• I wish that were true, but it's not. Ludwigs2 even went so far as to claim "that the NSF screwed it up once", referring to the 2006 version. Somehow he can read the NSF's mind and says they got it wrong. That's pretty bold OR, and definitely not a legitimate ground to reject the source. There have been disagreements (all myriad repetitions from the same few editors) with using the NSF as a source for the topic of ghosts (one more just appeared below), and plenty of objections to the source itself, calling the statement absurd, a careless side note (or something like that) and inaccurate. No, there have been many objections to the statement and the source. The objections to the RfC as asking the wrong question might have some sort of legitimacy, in the sense that many questions could have been asked, but the solution to that problem is to start another RfC that asks the question you wish to ask. Even then, it wouldn't necessarily nullify the validity of my RfC. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:28, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Disagree. The National Science Foundation is a primary source with respect to its own positions. Such sources can be used with caution. The National Science Foundation is not a reliable source with respect to ghosts. It might incorporate expert opinion about the "study of ghosts" or possible pseudoscientific claims about ghosts, but ghosts, and belief in ghosts, are religious, cultural, and psychological phenomena, at least, and it is unclear that the NSF would have the expertise to form a scientific opinion about them. I'd want to look at specific examples and specific text to see if it can be supported by the primary source. --Abd (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• This objection has been dealt with numerous times by several editors. It's a secondary source which uses several primary sources to come to its conclusions. Even if it were a primary source, this isn't about an article on the NSF where secondary sources must be used to establish its obvious notability. It's been deemed a RS, and this RfC has so far judged the application of the NSF statement to be proper. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Having reviewed this more extensively, I agree that the primary source argument is weak; the NSF is being used to show notability for the Gallup Poll. However, the NSF presented a clear definition of pseudoscience, then proceeded to use the word to mean something quite different. The source is, in that way, self-contradictory, and we are not obligated to follow such a source, and, in particular, this whole situation appears to be off the point. This is not an article about a pseudoscience, it's an article about ghosts. What are ghosts? What they are, ultimately, is unclear and, definitely, presenting any fixed conclusion on that would be highly POV (like, raising religious conflicts, we don't need that), but we can say, and the article does say what ghosts, are according to "traditional belief." Folk beliefs are not pseudoscience, per se. 'Nuff said, how about letting others comment, BullRangifer, isn't that what RfCs are for? --Abd (talk) 02:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Agree the NSF is certainly a reliable source for that. As for the "religious" argument, if fails, since there is a claim of interaction between the physical and spiritual world inherent with the concept of ghosts (manifestation) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 08:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

OR and Failed verification tags added to lead

I have tagged part of User:Dbachmann's edit with tags:

• Beginning with 19th-century spiritism, various attempts have been made to draw conclusions about the existence of ghosts through scientific methods, but such efforts are generally held to be pseudoscientific.

I don't find anything even close to any of that in the source. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

To make it clear which elements are OR, there is nothing about "various attempts...through scientific methods", or about "such efforts" in that source. That subject isn't mentioned at all. That's pure OR, and is actually another subject that must use other sources as backing. Both Dbachmannn and Ludwigs2 have been pushing this OR interpretation of that source for too long. It is a legitimate subject, but it isn't mentioned in the source. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

To make it doubly clear, I have argued extensively above that this citation does not support any claims about the NSF's attitudes towards public beliefs, and trying to make it do violates wp:Syn. please leave my tags on the quote until you are willing to discuss the point that I have raise three times now. ignoring me won't make the point go away. --Ludwigs2 00:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Reverting in a BRD is edit warring. Self-revert immediately and stick to discussion. No one has been ignoring you. They just haven't been agreeing with you. The consensus in the RfC is totally against you. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

you're kidding, right? BRD isn't even a guideline. When you respond to my explanation of why this quote can't be used this way, we can discuss the matter. till then - have a nice day. --Ludwigs2 01:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not kidding. You have been warned, warned, and warned about edit warring before, but now you're ignoring those warnings again, again, and again. I previously (at your edit war at alternative medicine) tried to get you to promise to respect BRD in the future, but you refused to do so. You're a combative editor who fails to show any respect for our edit warring policies, guidelines, and the repeated advice and warnings you received against edit warring. Whether BRD is a guideline or not is irrelevant. It is still the only thing we have that defines the line between edit warring and not edit warring. You have crossed that line again and you have been reported. Even if what I have written here had no other merit, you are failing to show a collaborative spirit.

As to discussing it, the whole RfC discussed it! You are ignoring it. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The RfC (as I said explicitly several times above) was not about the fitness of the use of this quote in the article. I voted in favor of your position on the RfC, for heaven's sake, because you constructed the RfC to ask about something trivially true. Don't blame me if you RfC'd the wrong issue. If you would like to have another RfC about whether this citation can be used in the article in the way you're using it, feel free. If you would like to discuss the issue rather than fly off on rants about my behavior, I'm good with that as well. till then, I will keep the usage tagged as inappropriate use of a citation and OR. --Ludwigs2 02:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Then let's make sure we're on the same page. Here's the statement, including your tags:

• The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, considers the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as belief in ghosts and spirits, to be pseudoscientific beliefs.

What have I included that wasn't part of what you agreed to in the RfC? Do they or do they not consider those beliefs to be pseudoscientific? Please point out the exact wordings that you believe are wrong. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

for the fourth time: the problem is not with what the quote literally says; the problem is that this is a minor quote from a small section of a primary source on a different topic that has no supporting secondary sources, and yet you are treating it as though this seemingly off-hand comment reflects an actual programme or policy of the NSF. As I said, even a casual analysis of secondary sources shows that the NSF and the scientific community at large do not have a practice of questioning people's beliefs; at best, they question efforts to elevate paranormal beliefs to matters of scientific fact. as I said above, even in the creationism debate scientists were careful not to call Christian beliefs into question, just the pseudoscientific claims being made by creationists. Using the quote as you do above is en claire synthesis from a primary source. so:

• are you suggesting this document isn't a primary source?
• are you suggesting this document is, as a whole, primarily about pseudoscience (or even carries pseudoscience as a major theme)?
• are you suggesting that there are (as yet unrevealed) secondary sources that support your claim that the NSF is engaged in a programme against non-scientific beliefs?

This seems to be blue-letter core policy, BR, but I await whatever argument you want to make. --Ludwigs2 06:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring and failure to abide by BRD

I see that Ludwigs2 has violated BRD by restoring a revert of a clear WP:POINT violation, even though the explanation was clear in the edit summary. The matter is clearly explained above. He is yet again ignoring the clear consensus in the RfC. The sourced statement is exactly what the RfC has supported. Self-revert and "Discuss" or you'll get reported. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see my post above - that fact that you type faster than me does not constitute a violation of BRD, and the fact that you have consistently failed to respond to explanations is not an excuse for you to continue pushing for insupportable material.--Ludwigs2 00:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you reverted a Revert in the BRD cycle, rather than Discuss, is a clear violation. Talk about Deja vu! Period. Self-revert and continue to discuss. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

hiding off topic and uncivil personal comments
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I understand the disdain of constructive editors for Ludwigs2. He is disruptive. He likes to edit-war. It is understandable that editors do not pay attention to what he says. Nevertheless, here, he is correct.

The claim by the National Science Foundation is blatantly false. A belief in ghosts, goblins, spirits, spectres, fairies, elves, pixies, and so on is not a pseudo-scientific belief.

A mere belief is either scientific or unscientific. A mere belief cannot be pseudo-scientific. Only a process or a procedure can be pseudo-scientific.

A process or a procedure is pseudo-scientific if it appears to have some of the attributes of a scientific endeavor but does not satisfy the rigors of that endeavor. The reason for pseudo-scientific processes or procedures is always to bamboozle or hornswoggle someone.

The naked belief in some absurdity is not an attempt to appear scientific. People believed in ghosts for tens of thousands of years before they had any notion of science. Someone's belief in ghosts is not by itself bamboozling or hornswoggling anyone. Accordingly, the issues of pseudo-science do not arise in relation to a belief. To reiterate, a mere belief cannot be pseudo-scientific.

Accordingly, the expression used by the National Science Foundation is inappropriate. The citation should not be used. PYRRHON  talk   07:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for displaying your blatant OR in contravention of the clear consensus in the RfC above. I'll take the NSF over your opinions anyday. We follow the sources, not the opinions of editors who don't like what the NSF says. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Pyrrhon8 seems to be arguing that ghost-belief is not pseudoscientific because some ghost believers do not even make a pretence of of appearing to be scientific. Pyrrhon8 seems to be missing the obvious point that many people actually do make this claim. Simply observe any 'ghost-hunter' type program and observe the self-proclaimed ghost-scientists attempt to deploy all manner of scientific-looking apparatus which can purportedly detect ghosts. This is very clearly a pseudofscientific belief. Let me draw an analgoy - creationism is pseudoscience regardless of whether you believe it on faith or because you believe what Dr. Dino told you.

If we were to apply Pyrrhon8's standard of pseudoscience then almost no field would qualify since pretty much any junk-field (e.g. aromatherapy, acupuncture, homoeopathy) could also be excluded from the defintition. Pyrrhon8 is effectivly trying to define the word pseudoscience away. I do not feel that Wikipedia is the right forum for this act of lexical recalibration. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The context of the NSF statements about pseudoscience, IOW the whole page, would seem to indicate that they consider any false belief arrived at through a lack of understanding of the scientific method as a pseudoscientific belief. They are basically extending the simplistic definition we often use so that it includes the very basis for pseudoscientific beliefs, which is a failure to understand the scientific method. They are using a more inclusive definition, rather than a superficial one. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Terminology is important in this connection. While it is proper to label anyone who holds false beliefs, and then engages in scientific research in attempts to promote and prove those beliefs, as a pseudoscientist, it would not be proper to label ordinary, naive believers as such. They are simply people who hold pseudoscientific beliefs. If they have been presented with the evidence against their belief and persist in it, then they become true believers. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree, in summary you do not have to be a pseudo-scientist to hold a belief which is pseudo-scientific. You do not have to engage in cargo-cult science, wear a lab-coat or make scientific-sounding claims. A simple failure of reasoning is enough. I think the NSF's point is valid & pertinent. Pyrrhon8's special pleading reminds me of how L-Ron-Hubbard re-defined scientology as a church to avoid criticisms of pseudoscience. Pyrrhon8's attempt to re-frame his belief in ghosts as mere spiritualism is no mor convincing than Hubbards's. --Salimfadhley (talk) 19:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

still waiting for you to respond to my points above. it's particularly disheartening that you would continue using this argument without first addressing the fact that I've disputed (well, pretty much refuted) it. You are close to crossing the line into IDHT territory. --Ludwigs2 18:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to the "fourth time" comment? Total BS based on misunderstandings of wikipolicies, and therefore unworthy of reply. I accept the RfC's conclusions and you don't. That's about it. Right before your comment I had requested:

• What have I included that wasn't part of what you agreed to in the RfC? Do they or do they not consider those beliefs to be pseudoscientific? Please point out the exact wordings that you believe are wrong.

Instead of answering my questions, you evaded and made a long comment based on misunderstandings of wikipolicies. You should have answered my questions. Please do so now. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

hiding off topic and uncivil personal comments
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
ok, so now you are truly engaged in wp:IDHT - you can't even address my point in a sensible fashion. I ANSWERED your question, directly and explicitly. I TOLD you what the problem with using the cite in this way was, several other editors have AGREED and told you the same thing. you can can refuse to acknowledge the point until the cows come home, and you can continue arguing inconsequential points that no one disagrees with - it's your life, and I really don't care. But sticking your head in the sand and bleating like a sheep (pardon the mixed metaphor) doesn't make you correct; it just leaves your nether parts sticking out in the cold. --Ludwigs2 19:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I asked you questions and you haven't answered them. There is nothing after my entry there that deals with my questions. Your comment deals with other matters. Just answer my questions. Your stonewalling style is once again (extremely!!!) similar to that of User:Levine2112. Are you certain you are not allowing him to use your account? -- Brangifer (talk) 19:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) I did answer your questions: would you like diffs? or maybe it will be clearer if you ask your questions again so that I can answer them again? I'm pretty sure I can just cut and paste from above. I'll expect, however, that you will answer my questions (clearly posted in the section above) in return.

I copied it above. What you provided doesn't qualify as an answer. I want a simple answer. Here it is again:

Then let's make sure we're on the same page. Here's the statement, including your tags:

• The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, considers the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as belief in ghosts and spirits, to be pseudoscientific beliefs.

What have I included that wasn't part of what you agreed to in the RfC? Do they or do they not consider those beliefs to be pseudoscientific? Please point out the exact wordings that you believe are wrong.

There. Please answer those two simple questions. Repeating what you've already written won't help. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

References

I've said this already, but I'll humor you: The first question of the RfC asked whether the NSF was a reliable source for the statement about pseudoscientific beliefs (which it obviously is; that's a matter of inspection); it asks nothing about whether it is a reliable source for scientific consensus on the matter. The second question does ask whether the NSF in general can be considered a reliable source on issues of pseudoscience (which, again, it obviously can), but does not ask whether this particular source can be taken as a source about pseudoscience, nor whether this particular cite can be taken as an important, substantive, or otherwise non-trivial statement in the document. do you see the synthesis problem here?

Thank you for agreeing with me. The rest is a diversion. I did not ask for you to answer questions which I did not ask. The rest of what you write is irrelevant to this matter, so I don't see the problem. Those are other matters that the RfC didn't address. If you try to force those issues onto this source, then you will be engaging in OR. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Now, you are obligated to answer my three simple questions - if you don't, then I will assume that you can't answer them without defeating your own position, and I will laugh at you.

1. are you suggesting this document isn't a primary source?

2. are you suggesting this document is, as a whole, primarily about pseudoscience (or even carries pseudoscience as a major theme)?

3. are you suggesting that there are (as yet unrevealed) secondary sources that support your claim that the NSF is engaged in a programme against non-scientific beliefs?

--Ludwigs2 23:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Now I'll answer you. (I have taken the liberty of adding numbers. I hope you don't mind):

1. Irrelevant. It's a RS. That's what counts. This is how we build an encyclopedia. We find V & RS sources that speak about a topic and quote them in context.

2. Irrelevant. It is a quote from a whole section on the subject of pseudoscience. It is not taken out of context or made to state some new or novel position that the NSF doesn't hold.

3. Irrelevant. They don't have to be engaged in any type of "programme against non-scientific beliefs." They are the supreme scientific body in the USA and are an authoritative source on anything related to science. Even if they were dead wrong, we should still quote them.

My answers will no doubt disappoint you, but that's my position. I see no violation of policy in any manner here. There is no synthesis of sources. It's ONE source quoted in context from the most authoritative source on scientific subjects. Since you don't like what they say, I suggest you take it up with them. If you can find more authoritative scientific sources that contradict them, then by all means let us know and let's see how we can also include the disagreement, because that's how Wikipedia works. Allowing your personal opinion and disagreement with them to control content would violate a number of policies. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

No, your answers don't disappoint me. in fact, I'm glad you that you've taken the time to express yourself fully without resorting to ad hominems. Unfortunately, however, your answers do violate both the letter and the spirit of wp:OR (and likely wp:V and wp:NPOV in lesser ways). You can't just use any old quote you can find to justify your own preconceived notions about a topic, and particularly not when you use that quote in a context alien to its intent in the original document. You know that as well as I do - you'd be the first to criticize any effort to use a primary source that supported alt med in this way. I mean really... you are basically claiming that all of wikipedia's sourcing policy is irrelevant in this context because they happen to prevent you from making an unsupported and largely unjustified claim. Is that what you mean to do? --Ludwigs2 02:14, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice try, but no, I never stopped beating my wife because I don't beat her. Your final question assumes that your previous comments are true, but they aren't. The NSF and the RfC are totally against your view on this one. You are the one engaging in OR and claiming that your personal POV is more accurate than the POV of the NSF. You even have the nerve to denigrate them! Why not take the high road and show that you can learn and bring your POV into line with the scientific consensus as expressed by them? I doubt that all those commentators in the RfC above failed to see the violations of our sourcing policies which you claim exist here.

No, you're way off base and desperately struggling to find some way to undermine the RfC and the NSF. You haven't come up with a single argument that puts the slightest dent in the (with the exception of yourself) unanimous consensus from that RfC. You don't like their conclusion, and you still threaten to continue to disrupt this article by not respecting that conclusion. In fact your POINT-violating tags you added and restored (a BRD violation), which are still in place, were placed in violation of the clear consensus in that RfC. That's just plain disruptive. Please stop it. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:56, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

as I said, this is a matter for sourcing - can you provide secondary sources that make the claim you are making? you obviously can't, or you already would have. without secondary sources you're basically without any standing here. if you like, we can open a new (correct) RfC on whether a primary source can be used in this fashion, but I'm not even sure that RfC would be meaningful, because I'm not certain how far an RfC can go against clear policy.

reliable secondary sources would be best - how much time do you need to provide them? --Ludwigs2 03:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

This is really bizarre. I've NEVER heard this type of argument in a situation like this, except for from one person...User:Levine2112. He has done it more than once in his classic stonewallings at the chiropractic articles, where he could waste our time for six months on one single little point! During the process he'd go through multiple RfCs, mediations, ArbComs, several editors getting blocked and banned, article lock downs, repeated edit wars, etc.. That's no exaggeration. It has really happened! Very few have equalled him for the ability to disrupt Wikipedia and use it as a battleground. (The expression "pusher of fringe POV" was invented to describe him, and you're his clone. It's really uncanny.)

You're misapplying the requirement for secondary sources. No one else here has considered this to be an inappropriate use of a primary source. NOT a single one! That rule is for other situations, usually related to BLPs and MEDRS. Please take this to the WP:RS/N. Until you get a ruling from them that overturns the RfC, you have no standing with these "arguments". This is bizarre!!!! -- Brangifer (talk) 03:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

damn, you have an odd memory - you can remember fights you had with other editors long ago, but not that three or four editors agreed with my assessment in the section immediately above the RfC. go back and look! nor am I 'misapplying' policy; this is exactly what policy says, and it's used exactly for this purpose. do you need me to quote policy at you, or will you go read it for yourself? I swear, brangifer, of all the editors I've had the pleasure of working with on wikipedia, you take the cake for failing to stay on topic. you just can't seem to resist getting in your digs, even if the digs don't make a whole lot of sense. it's bizarre... P.s. hell, even Pyrrhon8 agreed with me, and if there's anyone on wikipedia who dislikes me more than you do, it's him

also, this is the third or fourth time you've mentioned Levine2112, but I don't get the point you're trying to make. I edited a couple of pages he was on a long while back (I forget which ones, but probably paranormal pages). as I remember I it was hit or miss as to whether I agreed with him, and he was a bit touchy, but at least he could follow basic logic. Is this intended as some strange form of ad hominem attack? If so, I don't get it. --Ludwigs2 04:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I did get off track there. I'll try to stay more focused. Before the RfC you did have a couple supporters: Dbachmann and Cosmic Latte. Then, after the RfC, Pyrrhon made a comment which was quickly debunked. Note that several of the RfC participants debunked their comments, and none of the participants in the RfC agreed with any of you, but all agreed with me and the NSF. None found any problem with my understanding of the application of policies, most notably in this specific application. They all thought the current edit was totally justified. You were the only one who objected and they all found fault with your logic and understanding of policies. In the face of all that, you then pointedly tagged that RfC-approved content twice! Those tags are still there because I"m not going to edit war with you. ANYONE else may delete your tags, since the RfC approved that content.

Your persistence after the RfC has just been more disruption. There is a saying: "You're not paranoid if they're really out to get you." You seem to have trouble recognizing that you're on the losing side of this debate. NO ONE in the RfC supports you! You're welcome to continue to believe that you're right, but you are going in circles without convincing anyone. That's disruptive stonewalling. How about keeping that belief quietly to yourself, so that this article will no longer be your hostage? That way you can save face, still feel you're right, and Wikipedia will have one less battleground. If you hadn't started this battle by violating BRD and refusing to accept the unanimous decision of the RfC, we could all have been doing something more constructive. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

by the way, I've archived the (clearly off topic and uncivil) comments above one more time - if you unarchive them again I will report you to ANI for disruptive editing. does that work for you? --Ludwigs2 19:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

And I have archived your even more incivil comment. You're living in a glass house and are in no position to talk about incivility, so let's keep it even. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

This is getting silly. The comment about NSF regarding ghost belief as pseudoscience is currently in the skepticism section. NSF and CSI are both highly regarded skeptical organizations whose statements can be taken as very reliable summaries of what leading skeptics think of ghost-belief. Ludwigs2 makes a legalistic, philosophical point that "pseudoscience" might not be the best word to describe what may merely be just a crackpot spiritual belief, but this matters not a jot since the purpose of the section is to report what skeptics think and say, and not what Ludwigs2 thinks they ought to say. --Salimfadhley (talk) 19:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

@ Salimfadhley:

1. the NSF (National Science Foundation) is not a skeptical organization - it is a consortium of scientists with a government mandate. please...
2. I have no doubts that scientists as a rule don't by into 'crackpot scientific beliefs', but I see no indication that the NSF of the scientific community has an interest in attacking beliefs. scientists can distinguish between pseudoscience and non-science; if you can't that's a problem.

Beyond that, if you have a problem with wp:NOR, I suggest you take it up there. As it stands what I'm saying conforms to that policy perfectly. or do you want to argue that it doesn't? as I keep saying, I have no problem with using the quote itself, so long as the quote isn't used to imply or make claims that are well beyond what can be justified by the citation. --Ludwigs2 20:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

What in your opinion disqualifies the NSF from representing the skeptical opinion on this matter? Are you suggesting that only an explicitly skeptical organizations like CSI or JREF are qualified to hold a skeptical POV?

You say that you have no indication that the NSF has an interest in these beliefs, but the very quote you are disputing states precisely what the NSF's interest and belief is: They consider it to be pseudo-scientific. Unless you can demonstrate that this clearly stated view of the NSF is based on something other than a skeptical perspective or that the NSF's view represents a fringe position amongst the skeptical community then your argument fails.

Your other claim is that since ghost-belief is not a scientific activity then labelling it as "pseudo-science" is therefore unwarranted. Trust me, you do not need to keep making this point - we read and understood it the first time. It's still a flawed argument. The purpose of the quote is to illustrate the views of skeptical people. Whether or not this community have made an error by labeling it as pseudoscience is irrelivant: It's what they believe. Furthermore, some ghost believers, particularly those who "investigate" ghosts make scientific-sounding claims and use scientific-looking apparatus, and this case the NSF's point is clearly pertinent.

Finally, you have misunderstood the meaning of the wp:NOR - Citing a leading scientific body's view of a topic in no way constitutes Original Research. You seem to randomly accuse other people of violating all kinds of site policies, may I suggest that if you see yourself as an enforcer of Wikipedia's policy you should first become familiar with them. --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Salimfadhley: The CSI is a dedicated organization of skeptics, and I would certainly take their view on the skeptical perspective; JREF I don't know enough about to judge. I don't see any indication that the NSF is interested in disputing beliefs, period - if they wanted to dispute beliefs, they would clearly state that they are an atheistic organization, and they would be actively engaged in disputing, refuting, and debunking non-scientific beliefs. the document in question is a primary source document that mentions the word pseudosicence in a very minor and casual way in a small section of a chapter on public attitudes and media presentations. in this document they are not calling for the refutation of all non-scientific beliefs - they are asking for better public science education and better representations of science in public media, both of which are very good aims, mind you.

citing primary sources in a way that creates a new meanings (meanings not directly presented by that source) is the very definition of synthesis, which is a form of original research. the burden of proof is on you if you want to show that the NSF means to criticize beliefs themselves, and certainly with an organization as significant as the NSF there should be reams of other sources (secondary and primary) which demonstrate that the NSF takes this position. you'd have no problem finding such secondary material for the CSI, would you? so, you should have no problem finding it for the NSF. do so, and I'll cede the point. If you can't do so, then you ought to recognize that you're engaged in synthesis.

Finally, I will stop making the points I need to make when I stop needing to make them. your choices are to prove me wrong or accept that I'm right. simply ignoring what I say will cause me to repeat what I say. ok? --Ludwigs2 05:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Added a second ref and removed the tags.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Firstly the cited document is clearly not a primary source - it's a summary of research into pseudoscience and it's prevalence.

Secondly, the citation has not created 'new meaning': The document clearly states that belief in ghosts was one of the ten pseudoscientific topics that a survey investigated. The citation does not mis-represent the NSF's position on the subject of ghost-belief. It is not a "casual" detail of the document, it's part of the substance of the survey which the document is reporting.

Finally, there is no requirement that only "skeptical organizations" can represent a skeptical perspective: The NSF is a notable and reliable source of information about science. It is abundantly and unambiguously clear that they take a skeptical position on the matter of ghosts, spesifically that it is pseudoscience. --Salimfadhley (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The guideline at WP:Disruptive_editing indicates that "sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has rejected it, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input" is disruptive editing. The consensus of the community according to a RfC is here. On this talkpage, Ludwigs2 and I have reiterated the consensus of the community. The view of the Wikipedia community is that a ghost or a belief in ghosts is not pseudoscience. Rather, a ghost or a belief in ghosts is non-science or nonsense. The statement attributed to the National Science Foundation confuses the topics of pseudoscience and non-science in the same way that some people confuse astronomy and astrology. Characterizing Ghost as pseudoscience is inappropriate.

The article and this talkpage would be much improved if everything related to pseudoscience was removed, and the introduction was revised. Defining a ghost as a soul or a spirit is an example of ignotum per ignotius. Ignotum per ignotius is a rhetorical device which defines obscure terms by obscure terms. The device takes what is murky, and defines it by what is murkier. The device is contrary to WP:SPADE.

We should prefer a definition that tells us only this: ghosts are a consequence of make-believe or delusion. Nothing more is necessary. Anything more will ensnare us in insurmountable, definitional difficulties.

Ludwigs2 suggests that we define a ghost as an entity of myth and legend. I suggest we define a ghost as an "entity of fantasy or delusion."

In that regard, I dispute the definition of necromancy that is used here. Necromancy is not the attempt to contact spirits. Spirits are entities of fantasy or delusion. Necromancy#Modern necromancy is the practice by which someone pretends to communicate with deceased persons or deceased pets. PYRRHON  talk   18:11, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

@ Salimfadhley: to your points, above:

1. It is not research into 'pseudoscience and it's prevalence' it is social scientific research about public attitudes.
2. per above, the use of the quote in this way does indeed create new meaning
3. you're confusing scientific skepticism with philosophical skepticism. the first is a natural and healthy procedure that makes no claims whatsoever in the absence of evidence; the second is an irrational practice that asserts claims about the absence of evidence. very different things, sorry. of course the NSF uses scientific skepticism; that does not make them skeptics. --Ludwigs2 18:27, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

1 & 3 are simply not relevant to the question of whether this is an appropriate cite. 2 is simply wrong since , the list of topics is indeed from a Gallup poll, however Gallup describe these topics as "paranormal" and not "pseudoscience". The label pseudoscience was applied to the ten topics by NSF and nobody else. --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:10, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

NSF or Gallup?

Forgive me for starting a new thread, the old one was getting way to complicated for me to handle. Now that we have the Gallup survey summary which NSF cited in their S&E Indicators paper we note that the list of ten topics did indeed originate from an annual Gallup survey about American attitudes to the paranormal. The list did not originate with the NSF as originally stated. Gallup never described these topics as "pseudoscience", they only used the word "paranormal". So who was the first to apply the term "pseudoscience" to this list of topics, it appears to be the NSF. --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

probably so - no one doubts that the NSF in interested in the topic of pseudoscience. However, this is still a chapter on science and technology in the media and public viewpoint. Threre's good reason to assume that the NSF is talking about the portrayal of science in the public realm - e.g. Ghost Hunter type shows, series which depict wildly imaginative technology, movies that treat fantastic subjects (like vampires and werwolves) as though they were physiological realities, and other presentation which clearly involve pseudo-science. beliefs in general are not pseudoscientific because they make no particular pretension to being scientific in the first place.

In short, if you want to call the inverse relationship between pirates and global warming pseudoscience, I'm behind you 100%; if you want to call the Flying Spaghetti Monster pseudoscience (all blessings to his noodly crown) I have to demure. it's just a belief. frankly, the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow morning is pure and unadulterated pseudoscience by your reasoning, because in fact that statement is based on an entirely debunked cosmology. but it's a bit ridiculous to run around pointing it out. --Ludwigs2 00:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

You are attempting to infer what the NSF really means based on some kind of personal knowledge of what interests the NSF. I am merely pointing out what the document literally says. I think these are the relevant sections:

Paragraph	"Belief in Pseudoscience"	per Salimfadhley	per Ludwigs2
2	A recent study of 20 years of survey data collected by NSF concluded that "many Americans accept pseudoscientific beliefs," such as astrology, lucky numbers, the existence of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), extrasensory perception (ESP), and magnetic therapy (Losh et al. 2003). Such beliefs indicate a lack of understanding of how science works and how evidence is investigated and subsequently determined to be either valid or not. Scientists, educators, and others are concerned that people have not acquired the critical thinking skills they need to distinguish fact from fiction. The science community and those whose job it is to communicate information about science to the public have been particularly concerned about the public's susceptibility to unproven claims that could adversely affect their health, safety, and pocketbooks (NIST 2002). (See sidebar, "Sense About Science.")	They refer to "pseudoscientific beliefs" rather than the pseudoscience which misinforms it however they seem to use pseudosicence a more expansive sense than given by para 3. NSF explicitly labels the the cited topics discussed by Losh to be pseudoscientific beliefs, hence we can be certain that they are quite happy to label some non-science topics (e.g. astrology) as a pseudoscientific belief.	This passage is a commentary on the critical thinking skills (or rather the lack thereof) of Americans. Pseudoscience is not defined by this passage, but is brought in to demonstrate how badly we think.
3	Pseudoscience has been defined as "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility" (Shermer 1997, p. 33).[28] In contrast, science is "a set of methods designed to describe and interpret observed and inferred phenomena, past or present, and aimed at building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation" (Shermer 1997, p. 17).	This paragraph provides one possible definitition of pseudosience. NSF do not appear to use this definition consistently.	This paragraph is the only direct definition of pseudoscience given in this section. If the author wasn't intent on using it, s/he would have provided others.
4	Belief in pseudoscience increased significantly during the 1990s and into the early part of this decade (Newport and Strausberg 2001) and then fell somewhat between 2001 and 2005 (figure 7-8 ). The largest declines were in the number of people who believe in ESP, clairvoyance, ghosts, mentally communicating with the dead, and channeling. Nevertheless, about three-fourths of Americans hold at least one pseudoscientific belief; i.e., they believed in at least 1 of the 10 survey items (similar to the percentage recorded in 2001).[29] In addition, 22% believed in five or more of the items, 32% believed in four, and 57% believed in two. However, only 1% believed in all 10 (Moore 2005b).	This paragraph talks about the prevalence of "belief in pseudoscience", presumably meaning beliefs which are to some-extent misinformed by what the NSF considers to be thinking which pseudosientific. They equate "belief in pseudoscience" with "pseudoscientific beliefs" and label the list of items in footnote 29 as such. It seems they are happy to label a belief as pseudoscentific even if it may be also misinformed by other factors (e.g. spirituality, insanity)	The paragraph immediately preceding this defines pseudoscience as "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility". Therefore, 'belief in pseudoscience' can only be taken to mean 'belief in claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific'. This would exclude beliefs that are not presented, or intended to be presented, as scientific. see how you've taken the claim out of context?
Footnote 29	Those 10 items were extrasensory perception (ESP), that houses can be haunted, ghosts/that spirits of dead people can come back in certain places/situations, telepathy/communication between minds without using traditional senses, clairvoyance/the power of the mind to know the past and predict the future, astrology/that the position of the stars and planets can affect people's lives, that people can communicate mentally with someone who has died, witches, reincarnation/the rebirth of the soul in a new body after death, and channeling/allowing a "spirit-being" to temporarily assume control of a body.	These are ten survey-items (sourced from a gallup poll). These are described in para 4 as Americans hold at least one pseudoscientific belief; i.e., they believed in at least 1 of the 10 survey items, hence we can conclude that the NSF regards each of these survey items to be a pseudoscientific topic or belief.	This footnote merely spells out the ten list items given to participants on the gallup poll, which itself focussed on the paranormal, not on pseudoscience. further, it is a footnote to the above statement, which comes one line after the afore-mentioned definition of pseudoscience, so you cannot reasonably infer that this passage is intended to change the given definition (otherwise they would have simply given a more expansive definition to begin with).

note table has been updaed --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Bold emphasis added to the parts used as article content. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Oddly enough the Wikipedia citation on Ghost implies that the NSF are criticizing the scientific-process of the ghost-unters, when a close reading of this cited section reveals that they are actually labelling the belief as pseudoscientific. Ludwigs2, feel free to add additional rows & columns to the table, lets see how we differ on the interpretation of the document. --Salimfadhley (talk) 02:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Where are those words that "implies that the NSF are criticizing..."? That might need fixing. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually I was wrong, it's really quite clear, the text around the citation is: The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, considers the claimed ability of people to communicate with the dead, as well as belief in ghosts and spirits, to be pseudoscientific beliefs - that's an accurate summary of NSF's position as revealed by the paragraphs I listed above. --Salimfadhley (talk) 18:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Salimfadhley: My issue here (as I have said previously) is that you are taking what is (to my mind) evidently a casual/careless use of the word pseudoscience as though it were an intentional/analytic use of the word. see my additions to the table above. The document itself gives a definition of pseudoscience immediately before the sections you are quoting which is far more restrictive than the one you are trying to offer. honestly, you are using quotes out of their document context in a fairly dramatic way. The intent of this chapter is to discuss Scientific literacy among the general public; it is not intended define or explain what pseudoscience is, but rather to point out that the general public is pretty vacuous about what science is. do you see the difference? --Ludwigs2 18:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

How can you be sure that this is 'casualness'? How do you presume to know the state of mind of the author? This seems like an over-bold interpolation to me. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

hey, you guys are making the claim here, not me. You are trying to assert that the NSF means something by this passage beyond the passage's immediate context of critical thinking, so the burden of proof is on you. that being said, this usage seems to be unique to this particular section of this particular document. If it were more broadly used (across multiple publications, for instance) or if it was used as part of a larger argument (i.e., where other things that the NSF states depend on and/or follow from this 'pseudoscientific belief' idea) or if the research of NSF scientists habitually challenged people's beliefs, then there might be some reason to believe what you want us to believe - that there is a broader focus of concern in the NSF about people's beliefs. I don't see any such broader context, though, and so I can't see that this quote supports what you are trying to say with it.

Don't try to pull logical fallacies on me - you know as well as I do that a negative can't be proved. You say they means something specific by this, I say they don't; prove that they do. --Ludwigs2 00:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Your beef is with the NSF, not us. Contact them and ask them to publish a clarification in which they state that they didn't deliberately equate "pseudoscience" with "paranormal" when they quoted the Gallup Poll, and that it was a typo, and then get them to state that they don't consider those things to be pseudoscientific beliefs. Then we can use those retractions to modify any use of this quote at Wikipedia. Until then, you're engaging in a debate with them, and it's OR. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I am confused. Is anyone here attempting to claim that "research" claiming ghost exist is not pseudoscience? This ref [2] discusses the topic nicely.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

No. We are all agreed that it definitely is. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

(undent) so what does Ludwig want to change the line referenced to the NSF to? I by the way consider it fine the way it is. This ref from the NSF is a little closer to what we have but either should be good. [3] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the way the quote is used in this article is that it tries to extend the NSF statement well beyond pseudoscientific research about ghosts - there is an unwarranted emphasis on beliefs about ghost, as though all beliefs about ghosts are pseudoscientific. This is clearly not true, and not what the NSF intended by the quote - it's a misapplication of an out-of-context quote. trust me, if they were restricting the quote to pseudoscientific research, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Again, the problem here is that Ludwigs2 is inviting us to make an interpolation from the cited text in order to deduce what the NSF may have meant. What they wrote and published is verifiable, what they have intended to mean is open to debate. I can see the logic behind his theory. If our task were to deduce what the NSF meant to say I might reach exactly the same conclusion as Ludwigs2. I am sure you understand that would be original research and should have no place in Wikipedia.

I think this debate is approaching pointlessness, since we have established beyond doubt that NSF is Notable and Reliable. We've established they are qualified to discuss pseudoscience. We've established that even though the survey list originated from gallup, it was NSF who first applied the adjective pseudoscientific to the list. We've established that there is an apparent inconsistency in way the adjective is used. Beyond that, what more can we say without crossing the line of original research?

May I suggest that Ludwigs2 should start a new header and propose an alternate way of citing this document. Perhaps our fellow editor could show us an alternate wording and explain to us why it works better? --Salimfadhley (talk) 13:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that you guys are working out a new approach to this cite, though I have to say it's cracking me up a bit. You seem to have taken a cue from creationism: i.e. that the absolute and literal reading of the text is the only viable interpretation of the text. unfortunately, your 'literal reading' isn't literal and isn't a reading - it's an interpretation of out-of-context sound bites.

with respect to a 'alternate way' of dealing with the cite... <sigh...> I've presented at least three alternate versions, at least 12 times in the discussion above. every time I do, unfortunately, it gets layered with half a ton of off-topic manure. I'm tempted to tell you to go find one of them yourself, but instead I will go through and dig one of them out (or marshall up a new one) later this afternoon when I have the time. --Ludwigs2 17:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

and by the way: asking other people what I mean is usually is problematic; asking the people I'm disagreeing with what I mean is a sure fire way to get misinformed. if you want to know what I'm saying, you'd best ask me for clarification. --Ludwigs2 07:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree per Doc James and Salim. Inhabiting philosophical rabbit holes is unproductive. If L2 and other dissenters post alternative sentences to BR's and use them as a point of discussion, we could soon see fast, fast relief. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Please, pretty please - L2 show us the right way to do it! :-) --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:51, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

As a sidenote here, I actually find the way the NSF uses this interpretation of what is pseudoscientific to be refreshing and a learning experience. It shows they understand the term better than those who stick to a rigid interpretation (only strict and open claims of "scientificness") and that they are including the very fundamentals of why people come to hold pseudoscientific beliefs in their definition. The NSF understands this better and uses a better and broader definition. That raises my respect for them. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Doc: I agree, the NSF report repeatedly employs the phrase "belief in pseudoscience" in clear context with unmistakable intention. A section header reads How Widespread Is Belief in Pseudoscience? followed by the sub-header, Belief in pseudoscience is relatively widespread. Examples, including ghosts and haunted houses follow. Directly beneath those examples, they write: "Surveys administered periodically even show increasing belief in pseudoscience. Of the 13 phenomena included in the 2001 Gallup survey..." followed, again, by ghosts and haunted houses being cited as examples. They deliberately bracketed that section with the phrase "belief in psuedoscience". Nothing vague or haphazard about that. The emphasis on belief as pseudoscience comes from the NSF, not BRangifer. So (if I may suggest optional wordings here) our articles could report that the NSF characterized ghosts and haunted houses as pseudoscientific beliefs. Or, that the NSF included ghosts and haunted houses among beliefs that come under the heading of pseudoscience. That way we're just reporting what they said rather than trying to correct perceived errors in their logic. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

(undent) I did ask Ludwig the wording he / she would prefer. I was not asking other people. Can you please in a section below add this proposed wording? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Please let me make clear my opinion and involvement in this discussion: Both NFS and Gallup are clearly quotable sources. Both are also US-specific sources, and their use should be strictly confined to a very small paragraph on "belief in ghosts in the USA". Discussion of these, for the purposes of the Ghost article, very marginal references, has already been blown far out of proportion. Just write a short pargraph about the US and be done, but don't let these points of US demographics dominate the entire article and/or talkpage. It is not acceptable that a large topic like "ghosts" should be taken hostage by petty ideological disputes surrounding the US "culture wars". It also is not permissible to give US-specific debates on "belief in pseudoscience" vel sim. more than passing mention in this article. This entire discussion of pseudoscience is completely misplaced. Please take it to Talk:Paranormal, and discuss whatever it is the NFS has to say about paranormal phenomena, of which "ghosts" is just one item in a list, over there. --dab (𒁳) 16:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The sceptical inquirer is an international source which says the same thing. [4] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

um, no, it doesn't say the same thing at all. Your link suffers of none of the problems we have been discussing. For one thing, I fail to see any occurrence of the highly dubious term "pseudoscientific belief" in your link. In fact, the sceptical inquirer article can be used as a source illustrating belief in ghosts on one hand (Belief in such contact is called spiritualism) and a pseudoscientific approach to investigating ghosts. I see no problem with using the sceptical inquirer reference to establish that So-called “investigation” has ranged from mere collecting of ghost tales to the use of “psychic” impressions to a pseudoscientific reliance on technology applied in a questionable fashion while the NFS reference can be used as a source discussing US demographics. Please stop using a source focusing on giving demographic trends to make a point about the definition of "pseudoscience". Take the trouble to present a source that is actually making the point you wish the article to make. The NFS source is dealing with the rise and decline of USian belief in paranormal phenomena, and if we are going to quote it, we should quote it on exactly that. --dab (𒁳) 17:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Some interesting definitions of pseudoscientific belief show up in seaches. Including the 'recent study' cited in the NSF document ("Losh SC, Tavani CM, Njoroge R, Wilke R, Mcauley M. 2003. What does education really do? Skeptical Inquirer 27(5):30-35") reprinted here, where the phrase "pseudoscientific belief" is used several times. That same report even gives us a definition of the term: "Here, we define pseudoscience beliefs as cognitions about material phenomena that claim to be "science," yet use nonscientific evidentiary processes." I think that may answer a lot of the issues surrounding perceived internal errors and/or "what the NSF meant to say". Wd could even attribute that definition to the source given. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Dbachmann, above you write "This entire discussion of pseudoscience is completely misplaced. Please take it to Talk:Paranormal, and discuss whatever it is the NFS has to say about paranormal phenomena, of which "ghosts" is just one item in a list, over there."

I find your ownership tone rather obnoxious. You do not own this article, and you have no right to force it to cover only certain aspects of the subject to the exclusion of others, exiling them to the paranormal article. Ghosts definitely are a paranormal subject, as well as sociological, literary, etc.. It is a broad subject and should cover all aspects, including the paranormal and pseudoscientific aspects. You are currently (again!) on a deletionist campaign that violates the consensus in the RfC we have just held. Adding more content is one thing, but actual deletionism is quite another. That's wrong. The RfC consensus was pretty clear that the NSF source was being used properly, yet you have just removed the small portion about pseudoscience which you dislike, in spite of the fact that it was a very little part of the article. Now you make it a sentence or so. I may start with an RfC/U, but I am prepared to make an ArbCom case out of this and seek to have you desysopped for your actions. I expect that Ludwigs2 and Cosmic Latte will pile on there and reveal their true selves, thus providing a nice opportunity to get them topic banned or blocked as well.

You are resuming your previous edit warring and being disruptive by doing this. I suggest you back down and accept that the RfC consensus was not favorable to your limited interpretation. I will start to restore some of what you removed/vandalized, and I'll do it in such a manner that the article also covers the pseudoscientific aspect, and that any attempt by you to once again remove it will be seen as clear evidence of your nefarious intentions to cover up the fact that the NSF clearly labelled belief in ghosts "pseudoscientific beliefs". Note that I will do it even more thoroughly this time, and will not do it carelessly, so you will have no excuse to just revert it. Since it has been discussed before and the RfC consensus was that it was a proper way to use the source, your first revert will be counted as an act of edit warring, and not a part of the BRD cycle. It will be so clearly against policy that it will be clear to all and usable as evidence. Consider this a warning. I have no intention of edit warring over this. If you persist, I'll start an RfC/U, and if necessary proceed to ArbCom, since there is already plenty of evidence against you in the edit history. You have unbalanced the article by removing that very tiny bit of mention this subject had. I am restoring the balance, but not completely. If we were to balance this article properly, according to our WP:FRINGE and weight guidelines, the coverage of this as a fringe and pseudoscientific subject would be much larger. I'm not going to attempt to do that. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Well I respect dab's editing I do think the NSF is still significant enough to belong in the lead.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

(I suspect you mean "while I respect...") If you knew his editing history (edit warring and OR use of the source to say something it never mentions, and which I have once again removed from the lead), I suspect you'd have a different opinion of his editing. I have restored the RfC approved content, enhanced it by using exact quotes, and attributed the content to USA consensus. It now has the appropriate weight for where it is mentioned. Its mention in the lead is only one sentence, which is so small it violates FRINGE and WEIGHT, but that's life. I'm satisfied with even this small mention. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

this is rather rich. You are the one trying to "own" this by insisting on your unhappy wording. I do not insist on any specific wording at all, I am requesting that you appreciate the point that has been made. The point is that the topic of this article is not the pseudoscience of "ghost buffs". It is undisputed that this is pseudoscience, so stop trying to pretend that this is the point you are trying to make. You are actually trying to establish that "ghost buffs" and their pseudoscience are relevant to the topic of ghosts by debunking them prominently. Before you prominently debunk something, you need to establish that it is notable in the first place. You cite a source on US "belief in pseudoscience", of which "belief in ghosts" is just one item in a list. You may use this source, but only in the context of the source itself. If you want to discuss ghosts and pseudoscience, use a source that actually explores this, such as the SI article linked above. If you absolutely want to insist on the phrase "scientific consensus" pray present a source that actually uses it. You are welcome to make your point, but you are required to present sources that actually make your point for you, just like everyone else.

once condescend to appreciate this point, we can seek a compromise solution. This is what BRD is about: you don't indulge in bone-headed reverting to your own version, you seek compromise solutions that actually improve the article step by step. I am sure the point you want to make in the lead can be made, professionally and encyclopedically, if you just let people help you make it. E.g. by using a reference that actually addresses the point you want to make. If you can explain what you believe belongs in the lead without insisting on your precise wording, I will be happy to make a suggestion of how to put it. This is a concept also known as "collaboration". --dab (𒁳) 08:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

And your complete revert was collaborative? As an admin, you should know better than to display such ownership of this article. Instead of going directly to an ArbCom, I think a prominent RfC/U would be better. That will not only focus attention on your disruptive editing and ownership here, it will also bring even more prominent editors to this article to rescue it from you. You're holding it hostage. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll comment about this removal. Placing it on the lead is US-centric, so this removal was good. The section "Scientific skepticism" should have a short mention of the NSF's position, and the full explanation of the poll should be under the "US" section. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Then do that, since Dbachmann's complete revert was an act of edit warring that was against the wording supported by the RfC. Note that the content I included was not completely identical to the previous content, but was an improvement which addressed concerns mentioned here. I set a trap and he fell into it. His blind reversal shows that he didn't actually study the differences between the previous content and the new content. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Brangifer, whatever the RfC may or may not support, it certainly does not support your complete failure to grasp the issue. If you simply cannot or will not understand what is being said to you, there can be no meaningful discussion. Try to consider the possibility that the problem is at your end: you are not in dispute with me, so far you don't even have an idea of what it is I am saying. Please try to find somebody who can help you represent your point of view with a minimal amount of communicative skills. --dab (𒁳) 16:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

oh, he knows what you're saying; there's just a distinct advantage in pretending that he doesn't. It's the same tactic the Republicans have used in the US for a couple of decades now: never acknowledge your opponent's position, and make the most extreme claims you can make without offending people, in the loudest and most hysterical voice you can use without offending people, in order to give the impression that there is no other opinion than yours (no matter how unreasonable your opinion is). it's a sophisticated version of the argument style that 8 year olds habitually use, and it's very effective. The only way to deal with it effectively is to be patient, plodding, boring, and as much as possible repeatedly force the argument back to logic and reason. That works with 8 year olds, anyway, because they learn how to reason; adults don't seem to learn it, but they do eventually lose the hormonal steam that this argument style demands. --Ludwigs2 16:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

All I will say is that neither one of you has convinced the majority of editors who support the content and use of the NSF statement as I proposed it in the RfC. You are simply stonewalling and failing to convince me or anyone else. Your arguments are in violation of policy and go against the clear consensus in the RfC, and they are vacuous, dealing with other issues, instead of sticking to the point of the RfC, which even Ludwigs2 admitted was correct ("no one really disagrees with the points raised anyway") and then asked for the RfC to be closed ("yeesh... can someone please close this RfC as resolved?"). He thought it was improperly formed and has continually tried to discuss other aspects than the plain fact, agreed to by a majority of editors, that the NSF did in fact call belief in 10 named ideas to be "pseudoscientific beliefs". Stick to that point instead of trying to divert the discussion to other issues and engaging in OR in your attempts to denigrate the NSF and its position on paranormal=pseudoscientific ideas. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The position of other scientific bodies in other parts of the world if these exist would be interesting.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Definitely, but lacking such information would not be a legitimate reason for not using what we have. The editors who constitute the majority at the RfC need to make their views known by more comments and by ensuring that the will of the consensus is maintained on the article. Right now it's being held hostage by the two disruptive editors who refuse to accept the results of the RfC. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

In fact, brangifer, that does seem to be all that you can say. 95% of your comments in talk are about how much other people agree with you and how those people who disagree with you are 'bad' in one way or another. you haven't actually advanced anything approaching reasoned analysis since I first arrived on this page. frankly, it doesn't really matter to me that I haven't convinced you, because I don't believe anything could convince you; You don't respond to reason with reason. All we can really do here is to keep repeating the same reasoned arguments and nullifying the irrational responses you dredge up - not to convince you, mind you, but with the expectation that you will eventually tire of talking nonsense, and then reason will prevail. Now, if you want to continue to misrepresent my view (like you did in the paragraph above) and misrepresent the core of the problem (like you did in the paragraph above), I can't stop you. but I will continue to correct you. shall I do so now, or do you want to step back from it? --Ludwigs2 04:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Look, you seem to get some sort of pleasure hearing yourself repeating yourself. Stonewalling against the RfC consensus doesn't really make you look very good, nor does it impress or fool very many, but if it turns you on, whatever. It's all evidence that will be used against you. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The results of the RfC were crystal clear and in Brangifer's favour and I'd suggest that if this nonsense continues that arbitration be sought. Xanthoxyl ^< 06:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

@ Xanthoxyl: I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. which results of which RfC are crystal clear about what? we have had one RfC about a non-contentious non-topic, and another RfC that somehow got tangled up with an RfC on a different topic on a different page, and neither of them speaks to the actual problem under discussion here. can you clarify what you mean?

The results of the RfC above. You are arguing that the respondents don't understand the issue (the use of that particular reference to back up that particular statement), but the responses make it clear that they do. Furthermore, you are indulging in quite severe incivility. Xanthoxyl ^< 06:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

@ Brangifer: I don't like repeating myself, but I don't mind, and if repeating myself is what I have to do to bring this discussion (repeatedly) back on topic, I will do that. and you know, this is maybe the fourth or fifth time I've heard you make veiled threats like 'evidence to be used against me' and 'people are watching', and etc. what's up with that? If you're going to go all 'secret police' on me, you'd do better without the 'keystone cops' overtones. Get on with it, or get over it. --Ludwigs2 06:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2, don't play dumb. You know perfectly well that the only RfC held on this page is this one. The other was an announcement. The one above is overwhelmingly in my favor. As to evidence against you, I'm referring to the same thing that Xanthoxyl has mentioned. You have been disruptive for far too long, and you've been given plenty of rope to hang yourself with. Playing dumb isn't going to help you. You have been warned many times that you're being disruptive by refusing to accept the results of the RfC. That you have Dbachmann in your corner doesnt' help him either. You'll both get into trouble. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:40, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I went ahead and checked the most current version of the Science and Technology Indicators, which does not contain this language. that obviates the entire discussion - your source is outdated... also, if you threaten me one more time I will take you to ANI - I am not going to sit here and listen to your incessant personal attacks forever, you know.

<-- Ludwigs2, this is not about scientific research, where new findings replace old and outdated ones. The NSF report changes slightly from year to year. In the absence of any evidence that they have changed their POV, the contents of ALL the NSF reports are legitimate sources. The part that's relevant and fits the ArbCom wording exactly (to be used as a ref at NPOV), is found in the 2006 version and possibly others. Just because the NSF declared belief in ten concepts to be "pseudoscientific beliefs" in 2006, doesn't mean they are suddenly not pseudoscientific beliefs today. What you say really doesn't matter. It's just another diversionary attempt. The National Science Foundation is a legitimate source and my simple proposal has overwhelmingly passed muster in two different RfCs. I invite you to bow to the consensus as any good Wikipedian does.

But.... if you really are a masochist and wish to suffer the consequences of filing an RfC/U, like you're threatening to do on User talk:Dbachmann, the gun is in your hand. Go ahead and shoot. It's not my fault that it is pointing at your own foot. You've been given ample rope to hang yourself. If you hadn't been edit warring and had consensus on your side you'd have a case, but all you will achieve is that your edit warring, OR, and blatently tendentious editing (seemingly written by someone describing your behavior) will be noticed and get its due reward. Violating consensus isn't taken lightly here. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

NPOV attribution in lead removed by User:Dbachmann

User:Dbachmann has removed the NPOV attribution from the lead.

Here was his existing content which violated WP:FRINGE, by stating as fact that souls and spirits actually exist. That wording also violates NPOV:

• "A ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person, taken to be capable of appearing in visible form or otherwise manifesting itself to the living."

Here is the version after I added the attribution required for such fringe statements (with bold emphasis on the added part):

• "A ghost is considered by believers in the paranormal to be the soul or spirit of a deceased person, taken to be capable of appearing in visible form or otherwise manifesting itself to the living."

Dbachmann removed it with the edit summary:

• ""fringe opinion" such as that of OED and Britannica? This is very close to vandaliism now. Please try to understand what was discussed."

We are not writing OED or Britannica. We have different rules, among them NPOV. Attribution is not only helpful here, it is required if we are to retain the existing wording. We can't state something that is a scientifically fringe belief as if it's true. It is patently obvious that those who don't believe in the paranormal or souls or spirits do no believe in ghosts, and that believers in the paranormal phenomena of ghosts do believe that "the soul or spirit of a deceased person, taken to be capable of appearing in visible form or otherwise manifesting itself to the living."

An argument could be made for some religious believers in souls and spirits who therefore believe in ghosts. Some of them might also believe that those souls and spirits may appear to the living as ghosts. An inclusion of that fact would be appropriate, whereas the deletion was improper. Here is a possible wording that would satisfy policy:

• "A ghost is considered by believers in the paranormal and by some religions to be the soul or spirit of a deceased person, taken to be capable of appearing in visible form or otherwise manifesting itself to the living."

Note that there are other types of "ghosts" which are entertainment phenomena. They may scare some children at amusement parks and in movies, without those children believing in them as actual entities (disembodied spirits).

Whatever the case, the deletion and the edit summary don't hold water, either logically or according to policy, and they should be reverted.

Likewise I have tagged the NSF ref in the last sentence of the lead. It is Dbachmann's OR and misuse of the NSF source. Anyone who has actually read that source will see that it contains nothing relative to that sentence, and therefore the tags and ref should be removed. Likewise there is no source at all for the first phrase (19th century), so it should either be sourced or removed. It had previously been removed as it really adds nothing. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that attributing these beliefs to someone is important as they would not be held by the general public. I think it could be shortened to to believers in the paranormal and by some religions to be. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:30, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Doc James, is there a large typo above? I suspect a copy and paste got screwed up. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:20, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

No typo at all. It's actually easier to read in the wikitext, which doesn't allow the signature to be confused with the proposed snippet of text, and which sets off the snippet with bolding. On the other hand, I believe I'm Doc James. Don't you? Doesn't everyone? Oh. Never mind! To each his own. --Abd (talk) 17:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason I question it was because it's an exact quote of my wording. It doesn't propose any shortening or anything new. It seems like it was a copy and paste that went wrong. (and no, you're not Doc James ;-) -- Brangifer (talk) 04:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

well that's silly. everyone (even people who don't believe in ghosts at all) know that they are supposed to be the soul or spirit of a deceased person. restricting it to people who believe in the paranormal is a complete misrepresentation. --Ludwigs2 06:34, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Did I write unclearly? That's possible. We can't have unattributed opinions like that in the article. They have to be attributed to whoever holds those opinions. Otherwise they stand as statements by Wikipedia. See WP:ATTRIBUTION. Since there is no scientific evidence for the existence of souls or spirits, per WP:FRINGE we need to frame the statement properly. By adding the few words I added, the statement still properly describes the meaning of ghost, with the added benefit of clarifying who holds those beliefs. I'm not saying my wording was the only or best way to do it, but the statement, as it was, violates policy. I fixed it. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

not every phrase in wikipedia needs to be attributed - if all of them were, wikipedia would be an unreadable mass of pointless citations. We attribute where we need to verify that a contested statement was actually given by a source, or where a contested viewpoint needs to be localized to a particular person or perspective. In short, attribution is to aid the reader in verifying what's written in wikipedia; attribution is not a system to prove things to the reader. There is no contested viewpoint here. Even you don't have a problem with the given definition - e.g. the disembodied soul or spirit of a deceased person - you simply want to make the argument that such things don't really exist. I agree with you that they don't exist, I agree with you that the article should make it clear that there is no scientific evidence for their existence, but I disagree with your obvious efforts to cram a skeptical viewpoint down the gullet of what you must see as a rather stupid public. Dude, c'mon: nobody believes in ghosts (outside of that kind of wistful Anne Rice sort of thing, or campfire scare-each-other silliness) - this pedantic insistence on saying they don't exist is like having your mother-in-law in the back seat, warning you about every stoplight you come to. it just makes wikipedia look stupid. --Ludwigs2 07:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I stumbled across this discussion, and did not read it all ... Belief in ghosts is integral to many of the older religions and is related to concepts like angel and djinn in the Abrahamic religions. The article should be sensitive to these widespread beliefs. It would not be appropriate for an article on Bhuddism or Christianity or Islam to say that, of course, there is no scientific evidence for many of the elements of the belief, such as life after death. Better to just describe who holds the belief and what the belief consists of. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I definitely agree that we should "describe who holds the belief and what the belief consists of", and I did it in a very neutral manner. Right now Ludwigs2 is denying that we should even say who believes in ghosts, and then he introduces a diversionary tactic by claiming that we're trying to "say they don't exist". That's another subject, which can only be done by citing sources of criticism. This immediate discussion is not about that, but is about noting who believes in ghosts, and he's not allowing it. He's even vandalized the lead by removing mention of the NSF's position, which was properly sourced, and even the other ref. That violates the rules for WP:LEAD, which require that significant content in the body of the article be mentioned in the lead. It's all a whitewashing POV push.

What's really odd is that he contradicts himself above. He has been fighting for limiting any mention of the NSF's concept of "pseudoscientific beliefs" to that which overtly makes claims to be scientific, IOW such things as ghost hunters and parapsychology. He's satisfied to maintain a limited and rigid definition, with no other nuances. Yet above he's saying that no one believes in ghosts anyway? What happened to the pseudoscientific pushing by those who believe in ghosts and try to use scientific methods to prove them? Suddenly they're gone! I'm beginning to think he actually believes in ghosts and the paranormal and is trying to whitewash this article from any criticism by the National Science Foundation, which labels them as "pseudoscientific beliefs". No one but a true believer would act this way. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

What utter nonsense, Brangifer. If you have read any of the points I have made you have spectacularly failed to grasp any of them. Do the editors of the OED secretly "believe in ghosts and the paranormal"? I don't think so. The problem is you and your false dichotomies. --dab (𒁳) 12:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Lack of coverage of various cultures noted

After skimming the article, it seems very biased towards European culture. There is no mention of Middle Eastern, African, Austronesian etc. beliefs, and minimal coverage of pre-Colombian beliefs in the Americas, all of which are rich and interesting aspects of the subject. There is too much, in my view, on spiritualism, which has its own article and just needs a short summary. The intro definitely needs a rework to cover the main topics discussed. But this seems as bad as Global Warming for controversy. Think I will avoid it! Aymatth2 (talk) 15:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Aymatth2: please, feel free to add anything from other cultures that you have sources for. Just be a little careful not to accidentally impose a Western bias as you're trying to remove it: e.g. east Asian cultures have mythological entities that Westerners have labeled ghosts that aren't really anything like disembodied spirits (traditional east Asian religious philosophy doesn't have a conception of the human soul that lends itself to disembodied existence). And don't mind brangifer - he can't seem to make a post without it turning into an attack on me. The personal crap isn't something you want to get involved in. --Ludwigs2 17:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

There will always be differences in meaning between different cultures, but the idea of someone who has died but stays around in some sort of disembodied form and remains involved with the living seems fairly universal. Part of the interest in a more complete article would be differences and similarities between ghosts in different cultures. It is huge subject. Lafcadio Hearn wrote a lot about Japan (e.g. In Ghostly Japan), and obviously many other writers did too. See this excerpt for an example of just one aspect in another of the many cultures (Igbo) that are not discussed. Navajos, Polynesians, every culture has them ... A huge subject. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can certainly see the sense in that. It might require a major restructuring of the article, though. maybe start with a discussion of cross-cultural differences and move the terminology/typology bits down to subsections of the European context... You seem to be much better read on this than I am, so I'm happy to let you take the lead - what would you like to see happen? --Ludwigs2 17:59, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I am no expert. Just making one of those annoying drive-by comments of the "someone should do something about it" class. I may add some material if I come across it, but at present am working through a list of other articles that I want to get done. I would not worry too much about structure. Easy enough to rearrange as part of expanding. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:25, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

By all means do what you can to improve coverage. This is a large subject. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the {{globalize}} complaints is that either nobody can be bothered to do the research, or else somebody goes out of their way to emphasize the "equality" of cultures for which there are only extremely marginal references, resulting in tocs like "1. Aztecs; 2. Kalahari Bushmen; 3. Western world".

I think we begin to learn that this article needs to be split and cut down into WP:SS shape. Already the paranormal cruft hogs far too much attention here on talk. It is a marginal concern of the main article and should be exported to a dedicated sub-article. Ghost (paranormal research) will finally be in a position to claim with justification that it discusses a topic of pseudoscience. Detailed breakdowns "By culture" and "By period" should also be delegated to sub-articles. --dab (𒁳) 12:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I made a start on arranging by culture and adding some snippets of content on different cultures. The problem is that it could evolve into an enormous article, even if there is just a paragraph or so for each group. I think the sources are there, for example on ghosts in the different Australian aboriginal cultures, if someone wanted to do the research. But there are hundreds of groups that would have to covered to make it balanced, and that could take a long time. So the WP:SS suggestion makes sense. I fully agree that the paranormal stuff could use its own article, briefly referenced from this one, and think popular culture could too. Then there is the question of splitting out the articles on specific cultures. I suppose a geographical breakdown could work: North America, Central America, Caribbean etc. My guess is that a cultural anthropologist would recommend some different breakdown. I am sure there are books comparing ghost beliefs in different places and times. I recommend splitting out the paranormal and the pop culture right away, maybe just with "For" links at the top of the article, then seeing how the cultural part evolves. Do we need a vote on it? Aymatth2 (talk) 13:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Dbachmann, you are proposing forking the article. There are circumstances when that is legitimate, and if this article were large enough you'd have a point, but it's a very small article, and the only reason the paranormal part is so small is that you are preventing it's inclusion, which violates our rules for article development. Articles are supposed to cover all aspects of a subject. If an article then becomes too large, a split is warranted. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I excuse myself from reacting to any of Brangifer's comments due to excessive Randy-in-Boise-ism. --dab (𒁳) 12:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

The "Western Spiritualism and Skeptics" section is a bit of a fork anyway. When there are sub-articles like Spiritualism and Spiritism, it is best to basically just reproduce the summary at the start of each sub-article in the overview article, since the sub-article summaries should cover all the main points. Then only change the main article as needed to reflect changes in the sub-article summaries. That avoids forking. Before doing that, any content that is in this article but not in those should be moved over to the sub-articles, with an edit summary that gives a link back to this article to leave an attribution chain. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• I split out Ghosts in European culture into a separate main article. Think this works well: more balanced coverage here and a more focused discussion in the new article. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• • should probably be "Western culture", since Spiritualism and ghost hunting etc. is very much a phenomenon in North America. Probably traditional folklore and modern crackpottery should be treated as distinct. --dab (𒁳) 12:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
• There are articles on Spiritualism, Spiritism and Ghost hunting, probably others on recent beliefs and skepticism in western culture. Perhaps there should be an umbrella article to pull them together: "Modern beliefs in ghosts"? Maybe "in European culture" should be moved to "in European folklore", cutting out the very short "Modern Spiritualism" section. But I find the Western ghosts, both traditional and modern, rather boring. They just seem to vaguely hang around in a passively spooky sort of way. I just started Ghosts in Polynesian culture and may expand that - much more interesting to me since the ghosts are so much more active and the legends are so rich in detail. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

RfC announcement: Using the National Science Foundation as a reference at NPOV

See: Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#RfC:_Using_the_National_Science_Foundation_as_a_reference

Please weigh in THERE on whether a statement by the National Science Foundation is a reliable source to use as an illustration for a portion of an ArbCom statement used in the NPOV policy. This is especially important for members of the Arbitration Committee, since it relates to an ArbCom ruling.

I'm announcing this here since it is very relevant to the RfC we have just held here. Please do not discuss this here. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Ghost hunters lack scientific judgement

Google search results. QuackGuru (talk) 19:12, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

No less than three problematic lead sentences on ghost "research" and pseudoscience

This is excessive for the lead:

Beginning with 19th century spiritism, various attempts have been made to investigate ghosts through scientific methods, but such efforts are generally held to be pseudoscientific. In a 2006 National Science Foundation (NSF) report on a recent Gallup Poll survey of public opinion in the US, the NSF referred to belief in the existence of ghosts as a "pseudoscientific belief." A 2004 report by the NSF used somewhat similar language.

Obviously there are people who believe in ghosts and want to research them to find out more about them. I have no doubt that most of them are doing pseudoscience. It is also possible to research why people believe in ghosts: What are the mechanisms? Are people with specific mental diseases / mental dispositions more or less likely than average to believe in ghosts? How about cultural factors? Obviously there is a lot of potential for genuine research he. I have no idea whether this genuine research actually happens or not.

Now here is the problem: If you want to do ghost-related pseudoscience, you will think you are doing genuine research. If you claim to be doing some of the things I mentioned above as genuinely scientific, you even might get funding from reputable sources and be printed in reputable journals, if you are lucky. On the other hand, if you are doing genuine research in this area, you will have to (pretend to) take the object of your studies at least somewhat seriously, or they won't want to be studied by you. Add to that the fact that good scholars and scientists always sort of fall in love with their research field, and it becomes clear that it will be very hard to distinguish pseudoscience and proper science in this area.

Given these difficulties, it takes a lot more than the 3 references in the lead to convince me that "such efforts are generally held to be pseudoscientific". We must require certain minimal standards for such claims; otherwise we risk that one day the lead of evolution will say: "evolution is generally held to be just a theory". The first reference simply doesn't support the claim.

Here is the passage from the first source which apparently somebody thought supports the first sentence:

The supposed links between ghosts and electromagnetic fields, low temperatures, radiation, odd photographic images, and so on are based on nothing more than guesses, unproven theories, and wild conjecture. If a device could reliably determine the presence or absence of ghosts, then by definition, ghosts would be proven to exist. I own an EMF meter, but since it's useless for ghost investigations—it finds not spirits but red herrings—I use it in my lectures and seminars as an example of pseudoscience. The most important tools in this or any investigation are a questioning mind and a solid understanding of scientific principles.

The ghost hunters' anti-scientific illogic is clear: if one area of a home is colder than another, that may indicate a ghost; if an EMF meter detects a field, that too may be a ghost; if dowsing rods cross, that might be a ghost. Just about any "anomaly," anything that anyone considers odd for any reason, from an undetermined sound to a "bad feeling" to a blurry photo, can be (and has been) considered evidence of ghosts.

That's the best I could find in the source. Some problems:

• The source does not talk about "attempts [...] to investigate ghosts through scientific methods", which would include legitimate scientific research about the nature of belief in ghosts (if such research exists). No, it talks just about the American "ghost hunting" scene.
• The source does not say that such efforts are "generally held to be pseudoscientific". No, it just says that these "ghost hunters" are doing pseudoscience, and that the author uses their abuse of EMF meters as an example when teaching about pseudoscience.

Basically the source just verifies that one person holds one specific culture of "investigat[ing] ghosts" to be pseudoscience. This is of course way too weak to be worth mentioning in the lead in this form, so we need either a different source or a better formulation.

Currently there are widespread discussions about the second sentence elsewhere, so I am not going into details about that. However, I believe this is a misquotation. Maybe it could be corrected by saying the NSF "casually referred" to belief in ghosts in this way.

The second and third references give the claim in the first sentence a bit more credibility, but only if you ignore that they are implicitly about belief in ghosts, whereas the first sentence is formulated so widely that it would include scientific research into the belief in ghosts by scientists who don't share this belief (and might even think it's a symptom of a mental disease).

And here is the main problem: What are these two and a half sentences about pseudoscientific ghost "research" doing in the lead, giving no information beyond its existence and our disapproval of it? This kind of repetition with next to no content is certainly not encyclopedic brevity.

I was going to propose an alternative formulation that takes care of the distinction between actual, pseudoscientific research of ghosts and (potential) scientific research of belief in ghosts and can be properly sourced. But there is a problem: I find it hard to formulate it so that it doesn't make suggestions one way or the other about research into whether ghosts exist. That is problematic because research whether something for which there is plenty of anecdotal evidence is not a priori unscientific, but people trying to do it are most likely doing pseudoscience. (I expect protest here, but think of this: If Randy, say, does an experiment to prove that some claimed ghost is just nonsense – would that be pseudoscience? I don't think so. Would it only become science if he does it without the open mind w.r.t. results that is otherwise characteristic of science? Nope.) So in the absence of sources discussing specifically this aspect, we should avoid all statements about existence research, but not in such a way as to draw attention to this avoidance.

The following is not a definitive proposal, but perhaps something like it would work:

Beginning with 19th century spiritism, various attempts have been made to investigate ghosts through scientific methods, mostly under the assumption that ghosts exist. Such efforts often involve pseudoscientific methods and are generally held to be pseudoscientific.

The last part of the first sentence here suggests that "such efforts" in the second sentence is in some way restricted, short of us saying it explicitly. The construction of the second sentence further suggests, again short of saying it, that it is the pseudoscientific methods that make such investigations pseudoscience.

I guess a better solution would be to replace "investigate ghosts" by a natural formulation that cannot be misunderstood as covering investigations of the (non-)existence of ghosts or, most importantly, investigations into the belief in ghosts. The problem is finding such a formulation. Hans Adler 11:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Remove the last sentense and remove the number 2006 to cut it down in size. One could even change it too "Beginning with 19th century spiritism, various attempts have been made to investigate ghosts using scientific methods. These attempts and the resulting belief in ghosts are held to be pseudoscientific by the scientific community."Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Excellent idea. The "resulting belief in ghosts" is a bit surprising at first since most belief in ghosts is unrelated to the experiments, but in the interest of brevity this seems acceptable for the lead. "These attempts" also gives a strong idea that we are talking about the 19th century attempts and similar things that followed, not about research into seeing ghosts as a mental condition. Hans Adler 12:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I am currently waiting for somebody to come here and say: "But I want to say that everything remotely connected to ghosts or belief in them is pseudoscience, including literary research into the status of ghost stories among the Romans. Therefore I object to the new version." If this (or a more reasonable objection) doesn't happen in the next couple of hours I propose putting your version in the lead to solve the current serious problem. Hans Adler 14:38, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you are. In the mean time, the supposed study of ghosts remains pseudoscience. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

If that is supposed to be an objection to Doc James' text you need to be more clear. Supposed "study of ghosts" is pseudoscience, no question. This cannot be misunderstood. If you don't like Doc James' version we may find an alternative one using your formulation. Hans Adler 14:54, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Quibbles: Spiritualism seems to predate Spiritism. I don't see belief in ghosts as pseudoscience, but as religion (e.g. Buddhism). No need for double footnotes from the same source. How about a modified version of the Doc James suggestion: "In the Western world, beginning with 19th century spiritualism, attempts have been made to investigate ghosts using scientific methods. The experiments are widely held to be pseudoscientific."

This is not an article on pseudoscience. The NSF 2006 report did not make the claim about investigation of ghosts, it treated "belief in ghosts" as "pseudoscientific," which may or many not be in plain contradiction to the meaning of the term, and the NSF report was based on Gallup surveys about "beliefs" with not much descrimination between "belief" and "scientific belief." The reason why it would be in plain contradiction is that belief in ghosts is not a "scientific belief," in general, and I have not seen it justified as scientific with any frequency. That someone might have, somewhere, investigated ghosts using scientific methods would not make belief in ghosts "pseudoscience." It would be scientific investigation of ghosts! And it would only be pseudoscience if it met the characteristics of pseudoscience. The topic doesn't make it pseudoscientific, it would be the nature of the investigation and the methods and evidence used that could do this. "Pseudoscience" does not mean "things that most scientists don't believe."

Okay, how might it not be in contradiction? Apparently, the Gallup poll asked people if they thought certain things were "scientific." That's a trick of language, it's entirely unclear what it means. Some people would use "scientific" as a synonym for "true," and so they might be answering that they think something is true. This is thin material to hang a lede on. I removed that whole paragraph as out of balance and poorly supported by the article. Agree on the article, first, I suggest.

I don't see that anything is added to this article by dwelling on this incautious and transient labelling by the NSF of "belief in ghosts" as "pseudoscience." The article presents ghosts as a belief, not as a science or scientific reality, nor as anything claimed to be "scientific." It hints at some attempts at scientific investigation of ghosts, but is remarkably thin on that. That, indeed, could possibly qualify as "pseudoscientific," depending how it was done and reported, but is far from central to this article. How about working on providing more sourced information about that, before trying to give it such prominence? struck as inadvertent ban violation, I wrote this edit and did not sign it and may have accidentally saved it --Abd (talk) 16:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm tempted to suggest a revision along these lines:

Beginning with 19th century spiritism, various pseudoscientific attempts have been made to demonstrate the existence of ghosts. A significant percentage of the population continues to believe that there is a scientific basis for ghosts despite the lack of valid research or evidence.

there are several advantages to this approach, to my mind. (1) it avoids the confusion of claiming that they were scientific methods first and then reframing it as pseudoscience. (2) it clings more closely to what the Science and Technology indicators actually say - with this passage we could cite S&TI directly, rather than relying on the wording of specific years, since it is true of every year I have read, up through 2010. (3) it distinguishes better between belief and pseudoscience (i.e., it makes it clear that people believe in scientific validation for ghosts because of pseudoscience, without any of the weird assertions about pseudoscientific beliefs). what do you think? --Ludwigs2 02:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm getting really bored of this, but that might be an acceptable compromise, I'm not hugely happy with the wording A significant percentage of the population which sounds like a wordy way of saying "many people", and does not specify which population or which kind of ghosts, but I think is right in spirit. As I said previously, the NSF clearly believe that in some sense "ghost belief" is pseudoscientific. I do not think that the original formulation of the cite was that bad, but I'd be prepared to back a tidied up version of this in order move on! --212.188.161.10 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC).

Balance, Bias and Summary Style

I have been trying to make this article more balanced, but am still not at all satisfied. The basic idea is that the article should cover all aspects of the subject, but give most emphasis to the most important. Presumably importance in this case is based on some balance between how widespread each form of belief is, how complex and evolved the belief is, and what our readers will be most interested in. A vague sort of belief in ghosts seems fairly common in the west, but ghosts play a much more fundamental role in Buddhism and other non-Christian religions, with much more elaborate conceptual structures. English is something of a global second language, and in several non-western countries is the official language, notably India and African countries such as Nigeria and South Africa. We should not assume that the primary audience is in the UK and US, or that the primary interest is in western-style ghosts.

• The introduction stills says too much about Spiritualism / paranormal research and skepticism. This is a fringe topic even in the western world, despite the widespread vague belief.
• The section on Typology seems to have a strongly western orientation, and a slightly condescending view that ghost belief is sort of primitive. Buddhists would disagree. I can't fit the abstract and highly sophisticated Australian dreamtime concepts into this framework anywhere.
• Ghosts in different cultures is probably o.k. now, as a sampling, although much could be added to expand and cover other belief systems
• Western Spiritualism and Skeptics seems much too long for such a fringe topic. I have tried to move forking material to the relevant sub-articles and replace by the shortest possible summary, but the sub-section on Scientific skepticism is surely a fork of content in other articles such as Parapsychology#Criticism and controversy. Still needs clean-up
• Depiction in the arts is hopelessly unbalanced. Surely ghost stories have been written in languages other than English. And surely Bollywood and Hollywood do not have a monopoly on ghost movies.

Comments on the above? Aymatth2 (talk) 15:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems like your aim behind changes is to discuss less relevant topics and avoid far more common and important topics based upon some idea that discussion the most common topics is somehow biased. I think your stated goals are the exact opposite of what should be done here. The ghosts in other cultures section, for example, is already ridiculously detailed for minor cultures in such a way that it because trivial and gives no real educational value. We need more summaries of the overall topic and beliefs throughout history and less sheer random facts without context. The !Kung belief in ghosts, for example, is so ridiculously specific for a general topic that it's absurd. All that sort of thing should be branched off to separate articles, where there's enough information to do so, or deleted, where there isn't. DreamGuy (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I went back and looked at the overall nature of the edits and found them to move the article backward quite dramatically. You removed the terminology section and gutted the history section, two of the most important parts of any article on a broad topic like this, and filled it up with nonnotable details that gave no overall context for topic. Ir everted back to a more stable version of the article. DreamGuy (talk) 16:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

See Ghosts in European folklore. All the information is preserved, summarized in the previous version of the article, which attempts to give a broader perspective than the highly western-oriented version. You have removed a great deal of well-sourced and relevant information on the subject, and introduced massive duplication. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:06, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

DreamGuy, I have no idea to what version exactly you reverted the article, and I suspect others have the same problem. Please tell us.

You didn't just revert the treatment of ghosts in various cultures from an excessively detailed version that could simply have been pruned to a poor and embryonic one, you also caused massive regressions elsewhere and an overall very unpleasant situation.

In my opinion a re-revert is in order. Hans Adler 00:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, I found the answer to my question now. It was a version from 4 days ago. [5] (I had to turn off JavaScript in order to get a display of page sizes. I am using an extension that only shows me the difference in page sizes for successive edits instead of total page sizes.) Hans Adler 12:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Brown lady ghost photo

I've re-added this image temporarily to preserve it from being deleted (it has ambiguous sourcing, so it has to be listed as non-free). It's one of the more famous ghost images around, so it has a place in this article if we choose to use it. the question is: do we want to use it? --Ludwigs2 16:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Spiritism and Science

Vide this extract from the article:

"Beginning with 19th century spiritism, various attempts have been made to investigate ghosts through scientific methods".

The refs given do not support the idea that "spiritists" conducted scientific experiments about ghosts. Believing in ghosts or whatever is not the same as conducting scientific experiments. In fact neither of the refs so much as mention "spiritism". If some Viking believed in Thor that is not the same as the said Viking conducting scientific experiments into Thor's existence. This bit is also not supported by refs given:

"in a National Science Foundation report on a recent survey of public opinion in the US, the existence of ghosts is referred to as a "pseudoscientific belief.""

As far as I can see nowhere in the ref given - http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind04/c7/c7s2.htm#c7s2l5 - is the existence of ghosts referred to as a "pseudoscientific belief". Statements in the wikipedia need to be backed up by refs.Colin4C (talk) 17:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Unnecessary and counter-productive nit-picking

The pseudo-science debate here seems to have gone down a rabbit hole. Ghosts, leprachauns, spirits, gods, nymphs, angels and the like all normally involve claims to a causal relationship with detectable phenomena in the real world, and that's pseudo-science. Religion and spirituality cease to be an excuse just as soon as the believer makes a claim about the real world. Which is usually some time around Genesis 1. Tasty monster (=TS ) 09:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

They weren't much better after Phil Collins joined either, but they did drop a lot of the New Age stuff. Verbal chat 09:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

the pseudo-science debate has indeed derailed completely. Which is entirely the fault of the pushers of pseudoscience-debunking. Your "usual" claims of "detectable phenomena in the real world" are a WP:FRINGE topic. A "belief" is not the same as a "claim". By "real world", you mean the material world. For a believer (in ghosts, or in God), the "real world" is spiritual, or both spiritual and material. It is only when claims about the material world are made that "pseudoscience" begins to be a topic. Ghosts are by definition part of the spiritual world. Attempts to link them with theories regarding the material world are a very marginal topic to this article. Any detail on that would belong on ghost hunting and paranormal, with only a brief summary here. This is simple WP:DUE.

case in point: the Pirahã people have an approach to "spirits", which does include spirits of deceased members of the tribe, which involves a living member of the tribe speaking as a ghost. The claim that this persion "is" a spirit at the time they speak is entirely spiritual. From a material perspective, you just have a living person speaking in a funny voice. No pseudoscience is required to explain where the voice was coming from, it was simply the vocal tract of the living person in question. That person will, however, deny categorically that they were present and everyone will insist that the entity that had spoken was a spirit. This isn't a pseudoscientific claim, it is a spiritual claim, or if you like a neurological claim of consciousness and identity. --dab (𒁳) 11:55, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a silly opinion. There is a reason pseudoscience is called pseudo-science and not pseudo-reality. If you were right, a huge part of human culture would fall under pseudoscience, including most if not all of religion, but also for example Homer's writings. Put a pseudoscience tag on the talk pages of Christianity and Odyssey and make sure it sticks for a week. Then I will take you seriously.

It is possible to produce pure works of pseudoscience that don't even say anything wrong. This is a good example. I read only the first five pages or so before it became too painful. They contain a painfully tortuous proof of a mathematical fact that is so trivial that most lecturers just expect their students to see it on their own in the first session of an introductory lecture on the topic – no need to even mention it. The same author has also mathematically "proved the existence" of a Grand Unified Theory by an argument that is no more sophisticated than "Well, you see, we have these different theories. One tells us some things, and another tells us other things. So now we just look at what we can prove when we assume them all at the same time."

That is what the term pseudoscience is for. Ghosts, gods, and other stuff like this belong in different categories of nonsense. It's not OK to try to fit everything into the label "pseudoscience" just because we have an old Arbcom ruling for that and none for the other topics. The right way to solve the problem is to work on getting Arbcom rulings for the other topics as well, or simply to argue by analogy. Hans Adler 12:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

PS: Pseudoscience needs special treatment in Wikipedia because of the danger that we give it credibility: People reading an uncritical article about pseudoscience may easily be misled into believing that they are reading valid scientific arguments which they merely don't understand. Only those parts of this article which present such a danger fall under pseudoscience and need this treatment. Hans Adler 12:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not silly, Hans, it's simple, and there's a difference because a lot of people are making this unnecessarily complicated.

• You say much of human culture, such as religion, would be pseudo-science under my description? Fine, what's the the problem?
• You say Homer's works would be pseudo-science? No, they're stories with a possible historical basis, just as much of the bible is.
• You say only purported science can be pseudo-scientific? Wrong. The NSF itself lists ghosts, telepathy, reincarnation and all manner of nonsense as pseudoscientific.

Dbachmann, you correctly say that "It is only when claims about the material world are made that "pseudoscience" begins to be a topic."

But then, crucially, you spoil it.

You go on to say "Ghosts are by definition part of the spiritual world." If that were wholly true, then they would not be associated with real places, people wouldn't claim to have seen them and there wouldn't be a whole host of physical phenomena associated with ghosts. That purported collision between the real (or material) world and the imaginary (or spiritual, if you prefer) world is what makes ghosts pseudoscientific.

The failure to acknowledge the simplicity of this situation will make it harder to edit the article into something that makes sense. --TS 17:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You are talking complete nonsense. There is an entire philosophical debate about what to apply the label pseudoscience to and what not to apply it to. See demarcation problem. I did some research on this a while ago (it never went into the article, unfortunately) and I don't remember anyone proposing a definition that doesn't make sure to exclude the more standard religions and other parts of culture that don't pretend to be scientific. The very fact that everybody agrees one has to do this is one of the reasons it's such a hard problem. The only way to "prove" that the NSF claims ghosts are pseudoscientific is by quoting them out of context. Which is pseudoscholarship, if one goes about it as obviously as you are doing. To quote the NSF from the very paragraph before the misquoted one:

Pseudoscience has been defined as "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility" (Shermer 1997, p. 33).[28] In contrast, science is "a set of methods designed to describe and interpret observed and inferred phenomena, past or present, and aimed at building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation" (Shermer 1997, p. 17).

This unambiguously defines the entire context as things pretending to be scientific.

What is funny is that we probably agree about the intellectual value of all these things that you want to call pseudoscience (0 or negative). The only thing we disagree about is which label to use. Why call it pseudoscience if the question of science isn't even raised? Why not just call everything you don't like pseudochemistry to be even more specific? Or pseudoarchitecture for a nice change? Hans Adler 18:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

the truly funny thing is that the advocates like brangifer and TS use what is clearly identifiable as pseudoscientific reasoning to make their points (i.e. claims that science somehow refutes things that have never been examined, tested, or researched scientifically). what does one do when the skeptics use the same logic as the pseudoscientists? I remember once talking with some people about a (perfectly valid) sociological theory that angels and visitations filled the same sociological utility in medieval society that UFO sightings fill in modern society. Then the others got into a debate about whether angels were actually space aliens misinterpreted as religious figures, or whether UFOs are religious visitations misinterpreted in scientific terms. Reminds me a lot of the arguments here, and it still makes my head spin. --Ludwigs2 18:51, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

See also: User talk:Hans Adler § Ghost

Hans Adler 19:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Straw poll on revert

DreamGuy has made a huge revert to a version from 4 days ago to address a specific problem, but also changing a lot of other things in the process. [6] I have mixed feelings about the difference between the two versions. But there is one thing I am sure about: Such long-distance reverts can cause a climate in which editors who want to improve the article feel intimidated. They can expect their work to simply go poof! any moment. I am not going to work on this article before I have an idea of whether the revert is going to stick or not. The two versions are simply too different. There has been no real discussion of the revert, and I don't know whether this means that most people are content with it, or whether it means that most people are, like me, simply left scratching their heads.

This is not about a decision or anything like that. I just want to know where everybody stands so that I can go back to thinking about improvements of this article or not, depending on whether the current situation looks stable or not. Please everybody just say whether you support the revert, oppose it or are neutral (because you don't care either way, or because you haven't made up your mind yet). Please don't start arguing here, or it will defeat the purpose of the straw poll. If you are still undecided, just say so. Hans Adler 12:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral. Hans Adler 12:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose revert. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Introduce changes after discussion. Verbal chat 12:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The main difference was the shift to a worldwide survey of beliefs, rather than an emphasis on European folklore, which was put in a sub-article [7]; obviously objections could be made to that but I think overall the article was going in the right direction. Xanthoxyl ^< 17:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support revert. Such large changes, including deleting/moving/creating new fork articles, need to be discussed thoroughly first. This article is small enough to include a lot more than it does before it would be justified to split or fork it. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:29, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

removal of properly sourced material

this and this were removed by brangifer, despite being properly source and clearly both accurate and relevant. the sourcing here is just as adequate as the sourcing used to add the quote (if not more so), and it is a necessary balance on a claim that would otherwise appear as though it has consistent and universal support by the NSF (a fact for which is opposed by available evidence). If we are going to use this quote, it is important to note that the quote is only used in an isolated minority of revisions of this document, and that other revisions do not use it. brangifer, please self-revert. --Ludwigs2 05:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The sourcing is accurate, but it's unencyclopedic to use sources to add editorial comments that are OR and designed to denigrate. I don't think that's allowed. You can try the WP:RS/N to see what they say. I don't think it's relevant, since each report stands on its own merits, and in the absence of any RS to the contrary, such changes don't reflect any change in opinion. The opinions in each version are still accurate. If they made a scientific statement that was later proven to be wrong, that would be a different matter, but this is a different type of subject. They just emphasize different things and it is OR to speculate why they didn't include something. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

it's a simple factual statement intended to balance an inappropriately generalized statement that is currently presented. what's the problem? --Ludwigs2 07:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It's a very obvious attempt to make a novel synthesis from primary sources. Guy (Help!) 15:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

actually, no, as I can show. we have two (fairly indisputable) facts:

1. in 2004 and 2006 (AFAIK) the NSF used the phrase 'pseudoscientific belief' in this document.
2. in other years (AFAIK), and particularly in the most current revision of the document, the NSF did not use the phrase 'pseudoscientific belief'

The current way the quote is being handled on this page - The scientific consensus, as expressed by the National Science Foundation, has identified belief in ten subjects... - is implying that the NSF uses this phrasing consistently and continuously, which is a lie (per reference to those two indisputable facts above). Under wp:NPOV and wp:V we must attribute sources properly and in proper balance, therefore we need to specify that the language is inconsistent, otherwise we are giving the wrong impression.

If you have a valid problem with using proper attribution in this case, please state it now, otherwise I will be forced to re-enter my additions (and tag the phrase as failed verification and original research if my additions are reverted). --Ludwigs2 17:34, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the other years (besides 2004 and 2006) are a bit of a red herring. They are circumstantial evidence that the misquotation from the 2006 text is a misquotation, nothing more. Since this fact is already obvious in the first place we don't need them. What if we suddenly find the following in introduced species:

In 1983, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences gave its support to the idea that aliens live among us on Earth. [Footnote to news story about E.T. getting an Oscar]

Do we then add another sentence like the following?

However, in the following years they did no such thing.

Obviously not. The right thing to do is to remove the original misquotation. If it served any useful purpose it should be replaced by something that makes sense. Hans Adler 17:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

well, I agree with you, obviously, but that implies we have the conditions for reasoned discussion. Since reasoned discussion is currently impossible - i.e., proponents are going to continue battling for the inclusion of this misrepresentation regardless of what gets said - the next best thing is to insist on clear, proper and specific attribution. We can't dispose of the misrepresentation that way, but at least we can put it in some kind of proper perspective which minimizes the schlockiness of it. --Ludwigs2 18:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I think you are too pessimistic. We just need to implement the text proposed by Doc James. I wasn't pushing it because I first wanted to know whether DreamGuy's huge revert would stick. Apparently almost nobody cares, and so it does. Let's just propose the Doc James text formally. Hans Adler 18:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

lol - you're probably right. ok, I'm fine with Doc James' wording. what's the best approach for implementing it?

Useful cat

There is harm in removing the cat. The cat is a guide for the readers. QuackGuru (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I clicked on your link because I expected that it would take me to a place where someone explains how categorising this article under Category:Pseudoscience can be useful to the reader. That is not the case. So please explain why you took part in the edit war. Hans Adler 20:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm also confused about how a category that doesn't apply is useful to any reader. please explain that as well. --Ludwigs2 20:30, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This cat does apply to this article. The belief in ghosts is pseudoscience. It is the case that a cat can be useful for the reader. A reader might want to read other similar subjects. That is why there are cats in most articles on Wikipedia. QuackGuru (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The belief in ghosts is no more a pseudoscience than the belief in trolls or unicorns. Some people have built a pseudoscience around ghosts, but they don't dominate the topic. Using categories to label an article disparagingly is not acceptable anyway. Hans Adler 20:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

A cat is not used to label an article disparagingly. I previously explained the purpose for the cat and how it is helpful for the reader. QuackGuru (talk) 20:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I clicked on your link because I expected that it would take me to a place where someone explains how categorising this article under Category:Pseudoscience can be useful to the reader. That is not the case. So please explain why you took part in the edit war. Hans Adler 20:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

This article is categorised in Category:Ghosts, which itself is in Category:Paranormal, which is in Category:Pseudoscience. Given the general context of some editors here trying to turn this article about a basic topic that has/had some prominence in all known human cultures throughout the ages, has been extremely influential on the arts, etc. into an article that talks almost exclusively about hocus pocus such as spiritism and "ghost hunting", this seems to fit the general pattern.

I note that several other editors have also added the same category without any convincing explanation today:

• [8] BullRangifer (talk · contribs · logs · block log) "per Psi ArbCom and NPOV guideline 2"
• [9] Guyonthesubway (talk · contribs · logs · block log) "Undid revision 350182503 by Hans Adler (talk) Easy to understand... if hunting them is pseuodscience, so is defining them."
• [10] Verbal (talk · contribs · logs · block log) "Undid revision 350234607 by Hans Adler (talk) until the category system is fixed, no harm in making it explicit"
• [11] QuackGuru (talk · contribs · logs · block log) "The cat is to help readers."

The revert by Verbal was probably the most frivolous. When you push a borderline appropriate category into an article, one that is already implied through the category tree, and you do it after it has twice been removed on the same day, then "no harm in making it explicit" is just about the most inane justification I can imagine.

This is transparent category pushing by a tag team that apparently tries to extend the scope of the Arbcom decision on pseudoscience to this entire article, rather than just to the small fractions to which it rightfully applies.

As a result of this ruthless warring, the article is now protected (on the wrong version, obviously), making it harder than necessary to replace BullRangifer's misleading NSF quotation by a sane consensus version. Hans Adler 20:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

And furthermore, that quotation is US-centric and we should adopt a global point of view as well as a historical one. In any case, we should not allow a pseudoscientific viewpoint of our folklore and tradition to develop per WP:NPOV. Cenarium (talk) 14:28, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

RFC

I am going to launch one. First time I have done it, so bear with me if I screw up. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this a pseudoscience topic?

1. Should this article should be categorized as a pseudo-science topic?
{{collapse top|original second question}}2. How much emphasis should be given to the spiritualist / skeptic debate as opposed to other aspects of the subject? <small>collapsed because mixing two questions in one RfC can confuse results, and there is no pollable answer to this second question. --Abd (talk) 03:23, 17 March 2010 (UTC) </small>

I concur with the above comment by Adb, so am withdrawing the request for comment on the second question. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC) {{collapse bottom}} Aymatth2 (talk) 20:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

{{collapse}} hid everything beneath it at wp:Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy. As User:Abd might be taking a break, I've gone ahead and "fixed" it.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 14:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• This article is obviously not primarily a fringe article. Ghosts (not necessarily belief in ghosts) are part of mainstream culture, have been so since practically forever, and that in practically all cultures throughout the world. There is some fringe going on around ghosts, probably most of it pseudoscience (some of it is religious fringe). I am a strong supporter of WP:UNDUE and WP:ONEWAY. There is some ghost-related fringe that is sufficiently notable to be mentioned here, but I reject all attempts by the pseudoscience group (BullRangifer, Verbal, QuackGuru and some others) to make the fringe aspects take over this article. I also reject the categorisation of this article as pseudoscience. Via Category:Ghosts it is already categorised in Category:Paranormal. Most of paranormal stuff is pseudoscience, which is why the paranormal category is a subcategory of Category:Pseudoscience. Therefore this article is already in a sub-subcategory of the pseudoscience category. Given how marginal the pseudoscience aspects are in relation to the entire vast topic of ghosts (for most of history and in most cultures there is simply no relation), this is just the right level of indirection. Hans Adler 21:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

1. Hans, I agree with most of what you've said in this volumous debate, but I don't agree that most of the "paranormal" is "pseudoscience" unless you define it that way. Any physical manifestation of spiritual power or godly power, including all miracles (all the miracles in the bible, for example, and all the miracles associated with saints in the Roman church) are "paranormal" by definition. But none are testable, none claim to be scientific, and the idea that they are thereby "false-science" (pseudoscience) is just wrong. Read the wiki on science for the best definition of what things are claimed to be sciences (meaning natural sciences in this context), but are not. The power of prayer is not inherently scientifically testable (though some have attempted it) because there's no guarantee that God Almighty will cooperate. Basically it's the same with ghosts (they don't have to cooperate). The fact that they are claimed to affect the physical world is therefore not inherently a "scientific claim" unless they are claimed to effect the physically world reproducably, which I don't think is claimed by anyone! If not, they become like miracles and prayer. Sometimes you see them, othertimes not. But seeing them is not claimed by anyone to be gotten down to a "science." SBHarris 23:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I am far from an expert on paranormal (as I mentioned above I didn't even know that's a noun), so I would be prepared to believe you. But it seems to me that quite a lot, quite possibly most, of the stuff in Category:Paranormal is in fact pseudoscience. Of course this may be due to accidents in our coverage or in the category structure. In any case this doesn't seem to affect my argument. Hans Adler 23:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

In that case, I'm not sure what your argument is. The words "paranormal" and "supernatural" are not used rigorously and perfectly (however much WP wants them to be), but the usual sense of them is that the supernatural is stuff that goes beyond physics: god, religous miracles/effects of prayer, spirits, and ghosts. It's not testable with scientific methods, sort of by definition, because these methods are based on physics, and also the supernatural entities are presumed to have the power to appear/work, or not (both of these fouling up reproducibility). In this sense, "ghost" on Wikipedia should be part of the supernatural.

As for paranormal, it basically has to do with the unexpected, but it's sometimes used to include all the supernatural, and sometimes reserved for all the unexpected BUT the supernatural. Poor definition! And not easily fixed! In the latter sense of "paranormal" we get all the scientifically-possible and physical, but not supernatural, stuff-- like aliens in saucers, ESP, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. Most of this has problems with reproducibility also, since you can't just see Bigfoot or Gray Aliens, on demand.

However, beware of trying to use Wikipedia to define the English language (look at the article on matter and its TALK page, if you think you use Wikipedia this way). Beware of even using categories if you can't define the dang word!

Anyway, regardless of which of the possible definitions of paranormal you use, almost NONE of it is "pseudoscience." We reserve that to a small group of things that the proponents claim will work reliably (if it's not reproducible, it's not science), but which on testing, we find do not work (ala the James Randi tests). Like some claims of dowsing, homeopathy, and acupuncture. I don't even think astrology makes hard and fast and testable claims-- it's too wishy-washy. SBHarris 01:05, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there was a scientific test of astrology back in the 1980s. They got astrologers recommended by the American Astrological Association (or whatever) & agreed the arrangements with them. The whole thing was supervised by someone both sides trusted. The procedure was that the astrologers would be given a horoscope & 3 personality profiles, or vice versa. 1 was the correct one, the other 2 random. The astrologers predicted, modestly, that they'd identify the correct 1 about 1/2 the time. The scientists of course predicted 1/3. They actually got a little over 1/3, not statistically significant. This was reported in Nature, or Scientific American, I think. Peter jackson (talk) 10:40, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Request from nominator I strongly suggest to all who have been involved in debates on this page (I am included) to take a break, maybe take this page off their watchlist for a week, refrain from comment, and quietly learn what the broader community has to say on the issue. I should have put this request in before I launched the RFC. It is my first - a learning process. Let's get fresh views rather than rehash the stale arguments. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Bad idea to present two questions in one RfC. Suggest withdrawing the second question, people aren't responding to it anyway, and it's not designed to get a crisp answer. In fact, since it hasn't seen clear response, I'm going to collapse it with this edit. Aymatth2 is welcome to revert me, but if people start commenting on it, it can't then be deleted. As to arguments that have been presented before, arguments relevant to an RfC should be presented at the top of the RfC, or in it, as soon as possible, so that editors commenting are adequately informed as to the nature of the issue. At this point, the Not Pseudoscience side may have been adequately presented (if not, someone should add more), the Pseudoscience side hasn't shown up yet. They should not be discouraged from briefly making the case here. What's a problem is arguing back and forth, over and over. Thanks for starting the RfC. --Abd (talk) 03:23, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Abd. Agreed. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments

• Not Pseudoscience. The topic of this article is not pseudoscience, as clearly defined in the pseudoscience article, the ArbComm finding, and the NSF reference. The NSF, interested in the prevalence of superstition and other nonscientific belief, in 2006 listed belief in ghosts as a "pseudoscientific belief," that was dicta; a single document cannot revise the English language, in particular when it defines the word itself in the standard way, which does not cover mere superstition or nonscientific belief! The NSF report neither intended nor took any pains to discover the consensus of scientists about pseudoscience and ghosts, it did not report on that; the survey was about public belief. By the loosest standard defined by ArbComm, allowing the use of the pseudoscience category, only a, strong, reliably reported consensus of scientists that "Ghosts" were "pseudoscience," i.e., non-science pretending to be science, as described in the definitions, would allow use. In spite of claims, the 2006 NSF report is a primary source on the "pseudoscience" issue, at most; and as to the Gallup poll, commissioned by the NSF, it's not independent, so the NSF report remains technically primary. I have, however, no objection to the use of noncontroversial statistics from the poll, primary sources may be used with caution. --Abd (talk) 00:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Not usually pseudoscience I think the general topic of ghosts is not pseudoscientific. It doesn't purport to rely on scientific principles; it doesn't use scientific topics in a non-standard way to explain things. It's the same reason the Bible isn't pseudoscience, since it's not relying on a claimed scientific foundation. However, I think that certain subtopics related to ghosts are pseudoscience... specifically "ghost hunter" type stuff where people go around with gaussmeters and laser thermometers and purport to produce empirical evidence of ghost presence. Gigs (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I was asked to comment by Aymatth2. I agree with Gigs: I think the topics is so far removed from science that it cannot be labeled pseudoscience. It's mysticism/religion/superstition or some such thing, none of which have any relation to science at all. Pseudoscience refers to things that pretend to be science. Some aspects of psychic research involving ghosts can conceivably be pseudoscience, like an attempt to design an experiment to prove them real, but that's not usually the way the subject is discussed. DGG ( talk ) 04:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Mostly not pseudoscience - my views would align with Gigs and DGG. I did edit this page a bit before but have ducked for cover with the torrent of words preceding this. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Not Pseudoscience. While ghost "hunting", etc., might be pseudoscience, ghosts are not. The label better applies to that article, not to this one. This is folklore. Today is St. Patrick's Day, so I wonder when the Leprechaun article will be labelled as pseudoscience. Eastcote (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• The RfC above addressed this issue, we should follow the WP:RS. Verbal chat 12:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Not Pseudoscience. I remember dipping my toe in this article a few years back. The article itself is much better now, but I'm amazed to see that this debate is still going on! I think it's a mistake to see Wikipedia as a project to determine which things "really exist in the real world" by categorising them into things we have scientific evidence for and things which either don't claim to really exist or that make claims which have been described as "pseudoscience". It's just not an appropriate medium (haha). I don't personally believe in ghosts, but neither do I think that the history of how people have tried to study them somehow stains them with this "pseudoscience" label. The methods of investigating something should not be confused with the thing itself. Applying this label would also distract from the way in which ghosts most certainly DO exist, as an idea with a rich history in many cultures. RadioElectric (talk) 12:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Leaning towards Pseudoscience  : The article is full of references to 'Ghost Huntling' like tools. How is ritual binding, reburial, and the Spiritualist movement any different, except with the tools of the period? All are attemtpts to reconcile the mystical with physical tools. Is a seance really any different than EVP? Guyonthesubway (talk) 15:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
  • "The article is full of" such references? Really? I can see such references only in the following two sections: "Spiritualist movement" and "Scientific skepticism". That's precisely where they belong. The rest seems to be perfectly fine in this respect. The two pseudoscience sections (4 and 2 paragraphs, respectively) are a bit too long in comparison to the rest of the article, but that doesn't mean the entire article is contaminated with the topic. Hans Adler 16:40, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• Depends - If the main article is refactored along the lines of Ghost (belief) then pseudoscience doesn't apply. But if it broadly includes concepts such as Ghost train (spiritual entity) ("recorded events of ghost trains appearing in places where no tracks ever existed") and Spirit photography ("attempts to record images of ghosts") then pseudoscience certainly applies. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• As somebody pointed out, the article is ultimately in a subcategory of the pseudoscience category, so adding the pseudoscience category itself would be superfluous. On the broader issue, I've already expressed the opinion that a broad interpretation of the term "pseudoscience" is less artificial and creates fewer problems, but I can live with a more parsimonious interpretation. --TS 19:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• Do not put in Category:Pseudoscience, and remove the giant box about it from the talk page. First, the subject matter of this article has little to do with science. Attempts to use supposedly scientific tools to address the subject (such as modern Ghost hunting) could be accurately described as pseudoscience, but this article is overwhelmingly about the history and varieties of folk belief. Pre-scientific beliefs of the ancients are not "pseudoscience" and it is an abuse of language to call them such. Second, the category system has a hierarchy. To the extent that ghosts are related to pseudoscience, it is as an example of paranormal phenomena, for which there is a distinct sub-category. We don't shove individual articles into a parent category when they belong in a sub-category instead. Finally, a footnote in a single report from a single body (however respected) is not the source of "scientific consensus", especially when the focus of the report was not defining what is or is not pseudoscience. The NSF was reporting on social trends related to science, and the report should be used for that information, not for classifications so incidental that they weren't even in the main text. Discussion of belief in ghosts being considered pseudoscientific belongs in the article, but with sources that discuss that more explicitly, not just one seemingly chosen for the prestige of the publisher rather than for substantial relevance. Note that ArbCom did not cite the NSF article, but the box placed above earlier this month (long after the ArbCom ruling, and not by anyone associated with ArbCom) makes it sound like ArbCom has endorsed the particular designation of topics from that article. (The unmodified version of the box can be viewed at Talk:Pseudoscience.) It is inappropriate to put up a non-standard talk page notice in an attempt to sway a content dispute. (Side note: The recent addition of the category to Witchcraft should also be removed. It is even more ridiculous there than it is here.) --RL0919 (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• • It will still be in the PS category even if the PS category tag isn't on the page. The box isn't about the category, but about covering pseudoscience, and this article covers pseudoscience in relation to Ghosts quite clearly. Verbal chat 22:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• Not Pseudoscience By all means, there is plenty of scope for articles which relate to ghosts which would fall under pseudoscience, such as ghost hunting. Pseudoscience has a particular meaning which we should not maintain an understanding of which departs from establishedusage. Unomi (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• Mostly not pseudoscience the "spiritualism" and "scientific skepticism" sections deal with pseudoscience-related aspects of the subject. The rest is spiritual or superstitious, mythological, literary, etc. The stuff about the NSF study could be moved to the scientific skepticism section. I find Kim D. Petersen's conclusion that the "religious" argument "fails, since there is a claim of interaction between the physical and spiritual world" unpersuasive. The assertion that Jesus walked on water also describes such an interaction, but IMO most people would nonetheless consider such a belief to be religious. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 01:35, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• some parts of it, specifically Ghost#Scientific_skepticism and Ghost#Spiritualist_movement. I'll support Hans in that the arbitration case does not cover the whole article, just the parts that deal with actual pseudoscience (and, of course, any edits that deal with pseudoscientific stuff anywhere in the article). Come on, this is common sense. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Enric, the question is whether or not the entire article should be categorized as pseudo-science. We can't categorize just the bit that deal with a few hundred ghost-hunting cranks and skeptics, but have to categorize the whole article, which could be a bit insulting to the 1.5 billion or so Hindus and Buddhists who believe in ghosts as a basic part of their religion (admittedly their views at present get less coverage than the cranks and skeptics). What is your recommendation? Aymatth2 (talk) 01:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is what I suggest, we spin off the pseudoscience bits into child articles. This would ensure there is a more clearcut demarcation. Unomi (talk) 04:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

If any of them don't define ghosts as the disembodied spirits or souls of the dead, they should be exempted from the category. (Casper the Ghost, little children at Halloween, etc.) Others which use the regular definition of ghost deserve the categorization per NPOV Guideline 2 and NSF. It is those aspects that are classed as "pseudoscientific beliefs" by NSF. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

BR, the stuff about disembodied spirits of the dead is not pseudoscience either, when it's presented as a supernatural phenomenon and not a scientific one. My grandmother believed in ghosts because (she told me) she had personally seen one, of my deceased grandfather, sometime after he died. She was not a scientific person, she didn't care at all about science or whether her "ghost" had a scientific explanation, she was somewhat religious, and it's just ordinary common sense to understand her "ghost" belief as having been spiritual and/or religious rather than as pseudoscientific. That is the type of ghost most of the article is about. I wish you would stop overreaching with your push poll about the NSF study. The NSF calls something pseudoscience to distinguish it from science when it claims to be science. It doesn't attempt to distinguish pseudoscience from something that makes no claim at all to being scientific.

Unomi, I think completely splitting out the pseudoscience bits into a separate article isn't going to work--a top-level article has to address all the relevant aspects. However, the pseudoscience stuff is possibly overrepresented in the current version and could be scaled back a bit. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 07:02, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Note that the NSF statement doesn't claim that ghosts (or any of the other in the list of ten) are pseudoscience. I don't know why people keep getting confused over this. Everything gets twisted into a discussion of pseudo-science, when the NSF statement under discussion is about "pseudoscientific beliefs", not about pseudo-science. Of course they're related, but when we use a source, we must not misquote it. The NSF was concerned about how people come to hold pseudoscientific beliefs and described why. Then they listed ten examples of pseudoscientific beliefs, not ten items that are "obvious pseudoscience", to use the NPOV and ArbCom wording in Guideline 1. I even have a thread on my talk page where you are welcome to come and discuss this in a casual and friendly manner. There I have described in detail my understanding of this matter. In fact, it's entirely possible to hold a pseudoscientific belief in something that isn't strictly a pseudoscience. Now doesn't that make you curious? BTW, please sign in. Using an IP in this manner is against policy. It also lessens your credibility. IPs aren't taken seriously here. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

IPs aren't taken seriously here?! When did that happen? Unomi (talk) 08:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow. Didn't you lecture me about AGF recently? Something about enforcing it? If you believe this IP has an account and simply doesn't log in for some reason, WP:SPI is the place to go. If you on't have sufficient evidence for that, you are supposed to shut up. Character assassination is not an acceptable alternative. Hans Adler 09:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

"Character assassination"??? I only admonished the IP to sign in. I didn't say anything incivil or about the IPs character, and I still replied to the IP's comments. Me thinks you are overreacting. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

How is an IP user who does not have, and does not want to have, a user name, supposed to sign in? You could have told the IP to create an account, but you simply assumed that the IP already has one. Perhaps you thought the IP is a user who doesn't want to act under their usual name, i.e. basically a sock? In any case that wasn't OK. Hans Adler 18:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

BR, belief in ghosts (or in anything else) can only be pseudoscientific if the belief is presented as a scientific belief. It's an overreach when you claim that the NSF "pseudoscience" label applies to any beliefs when they are not presented as scientific, and that's why you're having such disagreements with various other editors. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 08:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Mere belief in an idea like time cube or parapsychology cannot be pseudoscience UNLESS you claim it is a science - that's why "pseudoscience" category tags should be removed from ghost hunting, ghost hunters don't claim it is a sceince. Oh wait a minute the tags are removed anyway. Never mind. Thank you!!24.91.158.85 (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

66.., that's too simplistic an understanding of my POV on the subject. Go to my talk page where I detail my view. If it's not a falsifiable statement, it doesn't qualify for accusations of pseudoscience, and even if it does, it doesn't necessarily qualify. It is the falsifiability aspect which makes a statement a potentially scientific statement. There isn't any black or white thinking here. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

In this case I agree with BullRangifer about the result, for a change. (I don't agree with the argument. That doesn't seem to make sense.) There is no one generally accepted definition of pseudoscience, only many reasonable ones, and they are generally up to interpretation. But there seems to be general agreement that ghost hunting is normally practice of pseudoscience. Whether we have sufficiently strong sources for this is another matter. I didn't immediately find something that would have allowed me to put ghost hunting on List of topics characterized as pseudoscience. Hans Adler 14:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Guys, it's already on category "Paranormal", which is a subcategory of "Pseudoscience". It's already categorized as pseudoscience. If you don't like that, then make separate articles for Ghost (belief) and Ghost (paranormal). --Enric Naval (talk) 12:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The more I look at the Category:Paranormal the more it seems as though it shouldn't be a child of Category:Pseudoscience. There are a great number of articles that inappropriately become grandchildren of Pseudoscience for that reason. Witness Afterlife, Dragon, Xian_(Taoism), Category:Fictional_ghosts, Category:Ghost films and many many more. Category:Pseudoscience seems to have been neglected badly and lacks proper subcategories which the truly pseudoscientific articles could be attached to, but this overly broad inheritance of Category:Paranormal seems to be in error. Unomi (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Category:Fictional_ghosts and Category:Ghost films aren't paranormal subjects. They don't belong in the Psi category. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

That's normal, we have that with many subcategories and trying to fix is hopeless. It's not really clear what categories are, but they certainly don't define a hierarchical ontology or anything like that. Except for the few categories that are primarily perceived as labelling (e.g. pseudoscience, murderer, terrorist), they are really no more than a navigation tool. E.g. CBM's tools that maintain the mathematics articles rely on categories because the mathematics project traditionally doesn't apply its project banner to unrated articles. This only works because it cuts off subcategories of subcategories etc. at some point and CBM manually excludes certain sub-subcategories that lead very far outside mathematics. Hans Adler 13:12, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant and frivolous comment: I wonder what the Dalai Lama would have to say? He is, after all, a leading expert on the subject. I suspect he would just laugh and shake his head, and agree that attempts to use machines to detect ghosts are indeed pseudo-science. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

We could create (subcategory of both Pseudoscience and Paranormal), and remove Paranormal from Pseudoscience. (of course, since the current Ghost article contains both kinds of paranormal, it would be listed at both categories :P ) --Enric Naval (talk) 14:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Not Pseudoscience. The arguments posted against the pseudo classification above are coherent, even if they all seem to be rooted in an agnostic perception that while intelligent isnt really up to date with the research conducted in this field.

Approaching this from a scientific perspective, the article would not even be partially pseudo science if it were much more positive about the scientifically demonstrable existence of ghosts or at least ghost like incarnate spirits. Scientists have been able to verify their existence with repeatable experiments. Researchers have consistently found positive results for over a century now. But only in the past decade or so has the methodology been refined to the point where no room is left for sceptics to plausibly argue for non supernatural natural explanations; the triple blind protocol pioneered by Archie Roy is especially impressive in this regard. You can read a summary of the recent quantitative work in the first couple of pages of this paper over at the Windbridge Institute. You're need journal or at least Scopus access to read most of the actual research papers, but you can see at least the abstract of one of the triple blind studies here at ScienceDirect

Im not proposing we distress wiki skeptics by integrating the actual science into the article. The Holy Bible does in several places imply that the sprits mediums contact arent really the souls of dead folk but deceptive entities, possibly fallen angels. But one has to question whether its encyclopaedic to allow a skeptic source to verify the claim in the articles lede that "such efforts are generally held to be pseudoscientific". It would be more NPOV to omit the problem sentence or if we dont mind a litle tautology to qualify it as "...held to be pseudoscientific by skeptics." FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment + Oppose: I would like to remind everyone that this question is about categorizing the topic. Categories are not labels we apply to topics because we believe they deserve to be labeled that way. Categories are labels we apply to topics because they are helpful to the reader. Would someone interested in learning about ghosts find it helpful to look at a category page that contains things like magnetic healing bracelets, rife machines and orgone boxes, AIDS denialism, phrenology...? Unlikely. Compare that with Category:Spiritualism, which someone interested in ghosts would find very apros pos. This isn't about labeling the concept of ghosts as pseudoscientific (which is the main purpose of the proponents); this is about creating a proper category structure that readers will find helpful and appropriate. --Ludwigs2 15:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I support Ludwigs2's view. See Creationism, Evolution and Creation–evolution controversy. The first is in religious categories, the second in scientific categories, and the one in between, mentioned by both parents, is under "Creationism", "Evolution and religion" and "Intelligent design controversies". We seem to be missing an article such as Ghost research that discusses the research mentioned by FeydHuxtable and the skeptics view of such research. Maybe if we had that, with a short summary in Ghosts, we could shift the pseudo-science war over to that one, and free up this one for badly needed expansion to cover Ghost concepts in non-western cultures, religions, books, movies etc. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Good points – from that point of view the pseudo cat would be useful to some if the article ever includes significant coverage of the science, as some do admittedly reject it. But as well stated by others the existing article is much more about the cultural / historical aspect etc. Im not sure whether its worth the possible drama to start the ghost research article however as skeptic wikipedians may object to a fair and neautral presentation of the very strong science in this area. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I was thinking of starting one, checked and found Paranormal#Paranormal research. The content in this article is a fork. Material that is not in Paranormal#Paranormal research should be moved there, and content in this article reduced to a short summary. That fixes the problem, as far as I am concerned. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• A technical trick: it is quite easy to automatically include the summary of a sub-article in the main article. That discourages forking. Example from Indian ghost movie:

Indian ghost movies are popular not just in India but in the Middle East, Africa, South East Asia and other parts of the world. Generally the movies are based on the experiences of modern people who are unexpectedly exposed to ghosts. Some Indian ghost movies, such as the comedy horror film Chandramukhi, have been great hits, dubbed into several languages. They usually draw on traditional Indian literature or folklore, but in some cases are remakes of Western movies, such as Anjaane, based on Alejandro Amenábar's ghost story The Others.

Click on "Edit" to see how this is done. Not difficult. Any changes to the intro to the Indian ghost movie essay will be automatically included on the parent pages. With an article like Ghost that seems so controversial and with so much risk of forking, this is a good approach. Fight the wars in the sub-articles, and let the main article automatically reflect the current position on each topic. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

damn. I have to say, that's super-cool. does the colon restrict the transclusion to the first section or the first paragraph? --Ludwigs2 02:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The sub-article brackets the content that goes in the main article with <onlyinclude> and </onlyinclude> markup. That is, the sub-article says what should be included when it it treated like a template. Check the sub-article source. This approach does not exactly conform to general policy on summary articles, but I think is useful for ones like this that somehow have become controversial. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:41, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This is in fact a very bad practice, mainly because it gives a misleading impression of what previous versions of the article are saying. Imagine that you transcluded a summary into an article on January 2009, and that summary got completely rewritten a year later (January 2010). People looking at the old version of the article as it looked on January 2009 will see the summary from January 2010, which may completely contradict other parts of the article! This is also true for templates such as infoboxes and navboxes, but this is not so much of a problem. But when people start transcluding actual text, then things rapidly fall apart in terms of being able to trace the history and development of an article (unless you cross-reference with the history of the template, but how do you cross-reference with the history of a summary transcluded from the lead of another article?). Carcharoth (talk) 17:32, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

• Not pseudoscience, and Category:Pseudoscience should be removed. Ghosts (in the sense relevant to this article) are folklore/mythical beings, like witches, gnomes and so on (although they have a more important role in modern culture). There ain't no such thing as a 'pseudoscientific being' per se, as pseudoscientific refers to the claim that a concept is scientific or supported by scientific findings contrary to the scientific consensus. While beings are just beings, in themselves they can't be characterized as pseudoscientific, even though some considerations on them are. It would be unacceptable for us, on the basis that a concept has been studied/analyzed/considered in a pseudoscientific manner, to characterize or even categorize it as such; we should do so only if it has been considered only or most notably and massively in a pseudoscientific context (by extension) - which is clearly not the case for either ghosts, reincarnation, haunted houses or witches. Although I reckon this paper (subject of discord) is a bit misleading in this respect, it restates the definition of pseudoscience as "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility", so it is evidently not directly applicable to beings, a being is not a claim ! and per above, neither by extension. Nonetheless they indeed refer to beliefs in those as pseudoscientific, but it is not clear what they mean by 'pseudoscientific belief'. If they meant by that, belief in pseudoscience, then it would be too much a shortcut especially for ghosts, reincarnation, haunted houses, witches, as they're not purely pseudoscientific concepts and believing in them doesn't imply believing in them as scientifically valid; and indeed that (pseudo)scientific aspect was quasi-irrelevant hundreds of years ago (while not relevant to the paper, it is to us as we must take a historical perspective). So I don't consider the source to be valid for this, as plenty of other sources consider those subjects without any reference to pseudoscience, and don't refer to them or categorize them as such. To put it in another way, pseudo-scientific does not mean extra-scientific. Ghosts, reincarnation, haunted houses, witches, are extra-scientific concepts (in their physical reality), but can't be described as pseudo-scientific on their own. Actually scientific research has been done on those subjects (most obviously historical research, social research, etc), and it's clear the cultural impact is massively more important than any pseudoscientific consideration of them. So those are in no way essentially pseudoscientific concepts; they originated in folklore/tradition from hundreds or thousands of years ago, and science, if existent, was irrelevant to them; pseudoscience developed around them in modern times and are only a small aspect of it. We need to put things into perspective, per our policy of neutral point of view, and it would be incompatible with it to push those subjects as pseudoscientific or the pseudoscientific aspects or them (which appeared very recently on a historical scale and are ridiculously unimportant compared to the cultural significance). As an illustration of why we shouldn't classify 'targets' of pseudoscience as pseudoscience themselves, consider that some people believe that the earth is flat, should we then categorize earth in pseudoscience ? and TVs, because they allow communication with dead people ? Obviously no, and the same goes with respectively, fictional, (genuinely) scientific or cultural concepts (examples in order: Parallel universe (fiction), Wormhole, Will-o'-the-wisp, all subject of pseudoscientific considerations). On the other hand, modern views of telepathy and astrology, channeling, extrasensory perception, clairvoyance and communication with dead, are considered pseudoscientific theories, though they also have a historical and cultural significance that needs to be covered with due weight. Cenarium (talk) 05:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

• Not Pseudoscience per points made by Cenarium and others above. --EPadmirateur (talk) 16:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Is the Paranormal pseudoscience

A discussion has been started at Wikipedia_talk:Categorization#Is_the_paranormal_pseudoscience.3F. Unomi (talk) 05:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)