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Found errors in an entry

I have found historical errors in a page claiming to be the history of a church I have been researching. I can produce full evidence as to why the claims are in error. What can I do to inform any readers of these errors? Historydebunk (talk) 15:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Historydebunk Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. If you have independent reliable sources that detail errors or why the existing sources are incorrect, please discuss if on the associated article talk page. 331dot (talk) 16:11, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Historydebunk. Your choices are basically to edit the article, or to open a discussion on the article's talk page. If you edit the article and somebody disagrees and reverts you, then you should open a discussion on the talk page anyway. As 331dot says, it depends crucially on whether you have published reliable sources (but also on whether the material already there is cited to published reliable sources). You should not remove material which is cited to (apparently) reliable sources, even if you believe it to be wrong - see TRUTH. Ideally, you should not add material unless you have found reliably published sources for it - but if the material already in there is unsourced then you aren't making anything worse (but somebody might still disagree with your edit). What you should not do, though, is include any information you have only from unpublished sources (such as parish records): get your findings published by a reputable publisher, and it may be possible to include them (though even then, you should not add them yourself, as you will have a conflict of interest, but should make an edit request). ColinFine (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I would like to open a discussion but the links seem to send me in a circle. I went to Talk and found the article I want to comment on but when I clicked on it I was taken back to where I started. Historydebunk (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

What is the title of the article involved? 331dot (talk) 16:33, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by I went to Talk and found the article I want to comment on: every article has an associated talk page, so for example beside Ripon Cathedral there is Talk:Ripon Cathedral. If you are editing on a browser and have an article open, then there should be a "Talk" button to take you to that article's talk page; if you are on the app, it seems to be under the "three dots" at the top. (There may be some old articles whose talk page has never been created, but if you find one such, you are welcome to create the talk page). ColinFine (talk) 17:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

This is the first time I have used Wikipedia in an editing role and am trying to learn how it works. I am trying to nudge the original authors into accepting the required changes as the two earliest dates in their article are based on sources that give no references. The earliest date is based on a newspaper report that makes a claim for a reference that, when followed up, does not exist. The second date seems to have been picked to pre-date Domesday as none of the fabric of the building is earlier than 100 years after the date given, this is based on evidence from Pevsner and Historic England plus original documents. A discussion page might achieve my aim but I do not know how to start one. Historydebunk (talk) 12:46, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, please give us the name of the article, or at least of the church so we can look for the article ourselves. It would be much easier to help you. You have no edits to any page but this one, so we can't track down what you're talking about through your contributions.

Every article has a discussion ("talk") page attached, though they must be created by an editor before first use (by clicking on the red link and typing in the edit window). If you give us the name of the article/church, we can point you right to the talk page. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The article I am questioning is St. Helen's Church Trowell. I have contacted the local people responsible for the history but they do not seem to be interested in documentary evidence. However, I know a number of people who use Wikipedia as a starting point for references when doing local history projects, including for qualifications, so my hobby has become trying to ensure the articles are accurate. I am finding churches to be a little stubborn as they seem to use age as a USP. I'm also working on a "pre-conquest Norman church". Historydebunk (talk) 15:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Historydebunk, I would start with opening a discussion at the article talk page rather than engaging the creating editor, directly, or any user that has edited the article for that matter. You can then make a plea at the talk page of this Wikiproject to join the discussion at the article's talk page. --ARoseWolf 15:16, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I have looked at the article's talk page and cannot for the life of me see anything that mentions starting a discussion. I have never tried to do this before, is starting a discussion called something else on the articles talk page? Historydebunk (talk) 15:27, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, click on "New section" at the top of the talk page.

The two earliest dates are sourced to the church's website (not a great source, a better one would be... well, better) and the Southwell & Nottingham Church History Project, which doesn't look too bad. The folks at the WikiProject will be good judges of that. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I've tried to find out how to find the people on the Wikiproject and have only managed to get back where I started. The problem with the page is that the 801 date goes back to a local newspaper report of 1949 that says it is recorded in the "annals of York Minster", according to the records in York it is not. The 1080 date looks like an attempt to make the chancel appear to be the half-church mentioned in Domesday when all reliable sources date it to the 12th century. Unfortunately all the on-line histories, including the Diocesan history, use the work of the same person, who does not provide references. In the first two references in the article they are, in effect, referencing themselves. Historydebunk (talk) 15:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Historydebunk, See Talk page guidelines. I think you can find most of what you need to know to start a discussion there. --ARoseWolf 15:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Historydebunk, The only way you are going to "find" people on a Wikiproject is to open a dialogue with them exactly the same way you would on an article talk page. You are where you started because you haven't begun the process to gaining consensus which is the way to get material changed on Wikipedia, especially information that has been contested. We are trying to help guide you to that point. --ARoseWolf 15:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, to try to be extra clear: the talk page of the WikiProject is here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anglicanism. If you want to argue against the sources currently used, and have better sources to provide (see WP:RS for our guidelines), then click "New section" on the article talk page (Talk:St Helen's Church, Trowell) and provide your sources and arguments. Then ask for input by clicking "New section" at the WikiProject talk page. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The source of my difficulty is that I do not know how to start a discussion. When I click on "new section" I get a dialogue box to type in but no indication of what is expected next, will typing in that box start a discussion? Historydebunk (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, whatever you type in the dialogue box will be posted on the page after you hit "Publish" (BTW, remember to include a subject in the Subject box). Other people can then read the post and reply. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Don't be worried about making a mistake. It can always be fixed. Just take your time and lay out your issues with what is written and make sure to provide sources for your claims. --ARoseWolf 16:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I have prepared my article for the Talk section of the article on St. Helen's Church, Trowell and have given all my sources in the body of the text. Do I need to add them as footnotes aswell. Historydebunk (talk) 14:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, that would be helpful, since they will probably need to be converted into footnotes eventually (if your changes are accepted). See WP:Referencing for beginners for a guide. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 14:33, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I tried to insert reference numbers in the text followed by footnotes. My footnote gets inserted in the body of the text in normal print. This is my first attempt at putting an entry on Wikipedia in order to correct an article and it is proving less than straightforward. Historydebunk (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Historydebunk, it sounds like you're trying to rewrite a chunk of the article instead of suggesting changes to one or two sentences, which is certainly very difficult work for a beginner (we often tell newcomers to spend some time doing small edits and fixes to get a feel for things). There is a place where you can practice with posting and formatting - your personal sandbox, located at User:Historydebunk/sandbox. If you follow that link, you can paste your text into the dialogue box, "publish" it, and work on getting things correct from there, plus other people can see it and help you. There also should be a link to your sandbox at the very top right of your screen, along with talk/contributions/etc.

If you're pasting in text that's been copied from the article, you need to attribute it per WP:Copying within Wikipedia. You'd do that by putting Copied content from [[St Helen's Church, Trowell]]; see that page's history for attribution in the edit summary. If you can't figure out how to do that, just come back and let us know once the page is created, someone else can make an edit with the summary for you. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Request move draft intro a page article

(Someone edited this page to remove this section. I hope I did the right thing by putting it back. Feel free to Fix it if I messed up.) 73.127.147.187 (talk) 12:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

(Sockpuppet?) 73.127.147.187 (talk) 12:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for resolve this issue 196.78.238.51 (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm a fairly new Wikipedia editor, I request to know how to update the draft move intro of the Wikipedia article page? Or someone make a merge Draft:Soufia Taloni intro Soufia Taloni Please a strong belief that all my articles are best on people that require the wikipedia kind of recognition

However the rules of notability do not seem that clear for me maybe to understand

Aanywell wisher will be grately appreciated 196.78.238.51 (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

hi ip user! firstly, you may've forgotten to log in, you might wanna do that. there's a near-identical question that you may've asked a while ago found over at #Created page for : Ali Sabri Musician, which I responded with the following:

you'd want to read the notability guidelines for music topics in this case.

• first, you would need Reliable sources: sources from stuff such as news outlets or trusted sites in the music industry that have a reputation for editorial oversight and fact-checking (not blogs, not wikis, not social media).
• if you do have them, check whether these sources prove that he fits in one of these criteria.
• if you do not have reliable sources or they don't fit the notability criteria, then stop: an article won't be created.. perhaps it may be too soon to create the article, you should wait until they get notability and outlet coverage first.

once you feel like you're ready to take it to being article, you can submit it with the button in your draft: this turns it into an active submission that can be reviewed, and if it is accepted they'll move it to an article. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 00:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi melecie, I am so very thankful for your timeand the assistance you provide my business. It is sincerely appreciated

It was very kind of you to refer me to her. I hope I can find a way to return the favor soon! For the Draft:Soufia Taloni merge intro move to page article Soufia Taloni Thank you for your help. and we hope if you can find way to help us as soon as possible you can

And thank you for your understanding

Warm Regards,

Sam 196.78.238.51 (talk) 00:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

...one more thing. by my business and us, do you happen to have a connection to Taloni or are they your client? if so, you have to declare your Conflict of interest, see that link for more information on that. if you've been paid, it's doubly more important as undisclosed paid editing is forbidden under the Terms of Use. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 01:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi melecie again,

sorry my english is not good): because im french people i try to translate on google I mean you, our business support, and i'm big fan of "Taloni" and i'm his best friend, I speak it every day she's asking me to solve this problem, and because there are many people pretending to be her and cause her a lot of problems

thank you for your understanding

Waiting for your help move draft info namespace article page 196.78.238.51 (talk) 01:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I assume this would be for twitter verification? unfortunately, I am unable to and am not qualified to review drafts and make them articles (plus I am using my phone right now so I am unable to translate the news articles). however, I'd advise you to read Your first article, Writing better articles and gather more reliable sources in the meantime, plus also disclose your Conflict of Interest in your talk due to you being their friend. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 03:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, 196.78.238.51 It's fairly apparent that your motivations for putting a profile of Taloni on Wikipedia are contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia. You have said: "because there are many people pretending to be her and cause her a lot of problems", as well as "belief that all my articles are best on people that require the wikipedia kind of recognition". Gaining recognition and solving online problems do not comprise any of Wikipedia's goals. I'm afraid you misunderstand that Wikipedia is not social media; it's an encyclopedia of notable subjects. Please note that trying to help a friend is not a bad thing, it's simply not appropriate for Wikipedia, which is a serious encyclopedia.--Quisqualis (talk) 04:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

IP user, I know that English is not your native language. However, you'll need to improve sentences like This coherent playlist to spend a day with a personality, known or not, but with a specificity. so that it makes sense in English. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 12:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks you so much for responding and i hope someone will help me to restored the page articles 196.78.238.51 (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I think the OP is a sockpuppet, if it's this user User_talk:Baderantar01. I didn't think we deleted the entire section in that case, but I could be wrong. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 12:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

So far only that account has actually been tagged as a sock. We've had posts from socks before and they were not removed after confirmation. (In this case, it was the initial IP who tried to remove their own thread; I agree with the restoration, I restored it myself a moment ago before noticing you'd done it elsewhere). 97.113.167.129 (talk) 14:23, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for that info. I was about 80% sure that the section should not have been removed. Is there enough evidence that 196.78.238.51 is the same person as the one who was blocked? He or she keeps asking for the article to be accepted or restored... 73.127.147.187 (talk) 10:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, right, I probably didn't restore ths section to the same place. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 10:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

There are odd things going on at that draft, but I'm not sure if anything "illegal" is actually happening, or if there's enough good evidence for an SPI. It might be fans or family members or one person whose IP keeps changing and who doesn't bother to log in. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 12:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Resolution, for anyone still interested: apparently a case of long term cross-wiki abuse. Several more accounts/IPs blocked, draft rejected and semi-protected. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 15:14, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons edit summary not possible

I uploaded something to Wikimedia commons however after doing some changes am no longer able to edit the summary of my upload, I believe it is because I not knowing any better added a reference to the top most line in the source editor, but I dont know for sure, is there any way for me to fix this? Frislr (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Frislr, Wikimedia Commons is an image repository and has a different function than Wikipedia. You should be able to leave a summary in the upload form though (commons:Special:Upload). Sungodtemple (talk) 14:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Frislr, there may be some confusion here between (1) the Help:Edit summary that appears in the history as "Uploaded own work with UploadWizard" versus (2) your ability to edit the Summary section of the file description page c:File:Byzantine Empire 1340.png#Summary. "Edit summary" has a special meaning here which is different from "editing the summary" ;). For case (2), I still see the Edit link myself. Have you tried reloading the page? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 23:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind response, and I am sorry for misusing "edit summary". I have tried to reload the page, however the file in question is this one https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Byzantine_Empire_1350.png where the edit link no longer exists Frislr (talk) 11:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

No need to apologise, Frislr. Is not misuse, just an unlucky collision of terminology. I now see that the int:filedesc (Summary) heading got broken here. The == signs need to be at the beginning of a line for it to be recognised as a heading and to have an edit link. (I might have been mistakenly looking at an old revision when I said it looked fine to me, sorry.) A workaround is to use the Edit tab at the top of the page and do a whole-page edit instead of a section edit. Another user has since repaired the heading; I moved the ref, but not sure if the place I dropped it is where you intended. Hope that helps! ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 13:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much this did very much help! I will try to keep this info in my mind should I ever do this editing mistake again, and the reference also indeed is where I wanted it to be.

Kind Regards! :P Frislr (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA CONTENTS BY LANGUAGE

I'm a native Portuguese speaker. Too little original knowledge is produced in Portuguese. To the contrary, almost all knowledge produced in any language is available in English. Furthermore, here in Latin America, there's much politically affected opinions. So, I'd suggest to make the contents already available in English also available in other languages. This would have an enormous effect in making better knowledge accessible to the world. It could be done using bots. Right? Thank you so much!!! Ecelso Zanato (talk) 13:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ecelso Zanato: We already have projects that are working to create articles in other languages feel free to translate or contribute to them as well. You may find some great projects at the Portuguese language Wikipedia at [1] McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 13:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you McMatter!

What you said, it seems to me, is a labour intensive task, as you mentioned "to create articles in other languages" Ecelso Zanato (talk) 13:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

It is quite labor intensive, @Ecelso Zanato. Translating an article from one language to another is often the equivalent of creating a whole new article. Bots - as they currently exist - do a poor job of translating, especially if the languages are quite different, so it takes a person with a good knowledge of the languages involved to create a good translation. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:36, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

You know,McMatter, my experience with Google Translate from English into Portuguese is that it works quite well. There are few errors of translation, but this is a very cheap price to pay for the wealth of good knoledge it would bring into our Portuguese world, that is now completely unavailable for so many hundreds of millions of creatures that are now like hostages of this beautiful but poor language... Ecelso Zanato (talk) 14:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Machine translation is not allowed on English Wikipedia, but each Wikipedia has its own rules. You should ask at the Portuguese Wikipedia what their rules are for machine translation. RudolfRed (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Ecelso Zanato - two things. One is that you would need to request such a change (allowing machine translations) on portugese wikipedia. The other is just a note that need for care is critical on things like biographies of living people. It would be cold comfort to someone libelled by a mis-translation that most articles were understandable. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, thank you Nosebagbear! You're so kind!

I didn't invent Macmatter. See it above! (McMatter (talk)/). Your Further note: ((I am not McMatter (as far as I know), I'm an IP editor - something you won't see on Portuguese Wikipedia anymore)) It really hurts me. I'm not an expert in Wikipedia like you are, sorry! I was only trying to find a speedy way to make available for poor Portugueses-only-speaking people the great contents of English Wikipedia. Sorry!!!!

In this video ([2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtqKXRoy10) they say that to do something to Wikipedia you must have a thick skin. I now have experienced what they mean. So sorry!!!

Just yesterday I've made a donation to Wikimedia. To be treated this way?

You don't have to answer me. It was enough! Ecelso Zanato (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ecelso Zanato, I apologize if that came off as an insult of some kind. I was just pointing out that you weren't replying to who you apparently thought you were replying to. And adding, as an aside, that IP editing has been banned at ptWP, so you won't see IP editors there. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

And this, Ecelso Zanato, demonstrates just how hard it is to translate articles from one language Wikipedia to another. You are a Portuguese speaker whose written English is quite good, but even so you misunderstood what 199.208.172.35 was saying to you, and – completely mistakenly – thought that they were somehow insulting or belittling you instead of pointing out a minor mistake in a wholly neutral tone, and adding some entirely factual information in a slightly oblique fashion.

The work of translating articles from English to Portuguese really needs to be done by Portuguese speakers whose English is even better than yours, or English speakers with equally good Portuguese. Unfortunately, there are very few Wikipedia volunteer editors (all Wikipedia contributors are volunteers) with these skills and with enough time to make a detectable dent in translating English Wikipedia's 6¹/₂ million articles, which hundreds of thousands of editors have between them taken over 20 years to create, improve and accumulate. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 04:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Further note: I am not McMatter (as far as I know), I'm an IP editor - something you won't see on Portuguese Wikipedia anymore! 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Ecelso Zanato The reason machine translations are forbidden on en-Wikipedia is a bad experience in 2015-2016 (see Wikipedia:Content_translation_tool#English_Wikipedia_restrictions). I am relatively confident that machine translation tools (at least between the most common languages) are, or will soon be (before 2030), at a level equal or above that of bilingual speakers that are not professional translators.

However, the technical task of translating is only part of the job. Another part is checking whether the subject of the article conforms to the standards (guidelines) of the new Wikipedia - some topics in pt-Wikipedia are not acceptable in en-Wikipedia and vice-versa.

The hardest part is checking that the content of the article are useful. en-Wikipedia contains many poor articles, and a few outright hoaxes. I am confident I could write an article about a minor Brazilian politician and include an incorrect fact such as politician X was accused of corruption in 2018. If I do it well enough, with a source to a long newspaper article in Portuguese that talks about that politician, it would take quite a long time to be detected (few editors will read that article, and most of those who do would just see that there’s a plausible-looking source, not check it, especially if it’s in a foreign language). If a bot later translates that "fact" into the pt-Wikipedia article, that becomes a much more significant issue.

Maybe at some point we could imagine automatic translation of articles that passed a certain threshold (WP:GA?). But those are few. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 16:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Advice on the addition of documentation

I would like advice on how to proceed (if at all) to post a systematic tabulation of works by over 200 artists, many of whom are the subject of articles in Wikipedia. The information is compiled from the publication, Le Musée français, and from historical documentation relating to its publication.

My effort to post the table with this article has been denied for several different reasons: (1) an engineer did this for me under their own account because I am not confident with procedures, (2) because the table utilizes an online source it was said to be redundant, (3) because the table utilizes descriptive information from a widely cited Masters thesis it was held to be unauthoritative and (4) although, consequently, redundant and unauthoritative, the posting was also held to be self-promoting, because the thesis was mine from 40 years ago. (Btw, I retired 10 yrs. ago.)

On the other hand, the posting on Wikipedia would provide opportunity to connect dozens articles about major and minor artists through reference to their works ... and also it would be a unique occasion to identify and appreciate the content of a publication which was admired as a work of art, above all others of similar character when it was produced.

Does the table belong in a separate but related article, e.g. “Engravings of the Le Musée français?” Or on Wikipedia.fr, rather than on Wikipedia.en? George-Amherst (talk) 16:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello George-Amherst and welcome to the Teahouse. It sounds like this is outside the scope of Wikipedia, although I'm not familiar with fr.wikipedia and how they operate, mainly as I don't speak French. The proposal sounds like original research and synthesis, which Wikipedia doesn't allow. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 17:32, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Hello, George-Amherst. If I understand correctly, you are talking about the information that was added in this edit by Practice2learn, and removed in that edit by Justlettersandnumbers. There’s a few things to consider here.

The only real problem here is whether inclusion of the table is "due". That the table is available elsewhere online is not a consideration for that criterion - the periodic table is available online at many places, but we still have an image of it in Wikipedia. But the periodic table is a major work of physics/chemistry, which has been commented upon by numerous authors, so an encyclopedia containing "the sum of human knowledge" ought to include it. Is that the case for detailed list of the engravings in Le Musée français? Honestly, I do not know. If you have a couple of sources (for example articles in art journals) that cite the list (not just the master’s thesis, but use the list it compiled), I would say it can be made a standalone article linked to the main article, with a short introductory paragraph describing the sources, possible methodology problems in compiling it, etc. (but make sure all of that comes from the existing sources, not your own interpretation of your master’s degree work, else that would indeed be original research which we do not allow here).

I do not think self-promotion is a significant issue here. In the context of academic writing, self-promotion is when you cite your own work in preference to the work of others, or give it undue prominence in Wikipedia articles. But when your own work is indeed the most relevant, or only, scholarly work about a particular point, it’s fine to cite it.

I am not familiar with the guidelines at fr-Wikipedia, but I suppose the main issue will be the same - you will have to prove that the list is not just something off a master’s thesis, but that it has some external validation, most likely in the way of other articles citing the list as authoritative.

Finally, in the future, if you ask someone off-wiki for help to edit (as was the case here with Practice2learn’s edit if I understand correctly), it is a good practice to make that visible to other editors (for instance with an edit summary that says uploading the table on behalf of User:X who asked me for assistance in real life). That is because secret off-wiki coordination can give the impression that multiple independent editors have the same opinion, which biases potential debates (see WP:MEAT). Here, I do not think that is a significant concern (after all, 19th-century art journals is not a really controversial topic area on Wikipedia), but still. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 16:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

George-Amherst, my recollection of that article and its problems has faded somewhat. Do I recall correctly that the "widely cited Master[']s thesis" you refer to is in fact something that you wrote yourself? And that you have already been told that a master's thesis is not normally regarded as a reliable source ("Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence"? Perhaps Theroadislong will remember more clearly than I do? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Tigraan ... Thank you for your remarks. I would like to reply carefully ... and do not have opportunity to do this before early next week, by which time this exchange may become archived.

It appears that the inclusion of information from the Master's thesis is a problem for some editors. Let's remember that the information being considered is (a) putting numbers to an otherwise determined sequence and (b) the dimensions of printed images that are easily verified from the objects themselves and which will serve to identify copies of them ... two columns out of eight. If this is a problem, then why not post the table without any reference to thesis? Many would regard citation of the thesis simply as a benefit to the reader.

Repeatedly, in my exchanges with editors, I've needed to point out that the thesis is cited as the only reference for information about the contents of the publication by the general catalogue of the Bibliotheque nationale de France, by the Lbrary catalogue of the Royal Academy of Art in London and by the online ongoing edition of Fritz Lugt's Les Marques de collections ... maintained by the Fondation Custodia in Paris. Yes, it is also cited in art historical scholarship, although I have only a couple of examples of this.

I believe the table is "due" ... (1) because there is no other means of presenting the contents of the publication itself than by an enumeration such as this, (2) there is no other documentary basis for reference to the work of the many artists (over 200) who contributed to it, (3) it is the only documentary basis for identifying objects removed from the publication which have survived as independent art works. Of course, one can add references to Le Musee francais from articles on its artists, but without the availability of this table, the references are simply allegations.

Let me add, the publication itself has no list of contents and no index of contributors. Even persons having access to copies of the publication itself have need to this table to understand what it contains. In this sense, perhaps, it is indeed comparable to the periodic table of elements. George-Amherst (talk) 00:09, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

If it was to be on Wikipedia, I'd think a separate list article List of engravings at Le Musée français, rather than a section in Le Musée français. Should every museum and gallery have their catalogue mirrored here? If you have detail like dimensions, then Wikidata would be a perfect repository. But importing bulk info into WD is a non-trivial undertaking. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 13:54, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes ... I think a separate article, e.g. "Engravings of the Le Musée français and Le Musée royal..." would be justified, along with several paragraphs of explanation. Yes, the dimension of images is an important feature of the table. When this was previously done in March (and removed by editors here), it didn't appear to be technically difficult to drop the entire (immense) table into the visual editor. However, I suppose the engineer who did this could do it again for me (with the clarifications suggested above).

What I'd like to avoid (above all) is the continuing unpleasantness of getting shot down again by editors who do not ask first. George-Amherst (talk) 16:14, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Grammar assistance, please!

What is the proper form for this statement? "Since both parents worked XXX days per week, XXX was often responsible for (child care)." OR: "Because both parents worked XXX days per week.." OR: "As both parents worked XXX days per week.." I'm old and befuddled. Thanks, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 21:02, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe 'Due to X's parents working X days a week, X was often responsible for the childcare of his/her older/younger sibling [insert name]' Zindor (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Tribe of Tiger, all three of your alternatives are fine. I wouldn't use Zindor's no doubt well-intentioned suggestion: its first half sounds somehow constipated to me (and conventionally calls for an apostrophe on "parents", an addition that would do nothing to aid the constipation); and we can infer from the context that the care is childcare (and not aftercare, Medicare, etc). -- Hoary (talk) 21:53, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I debated that apostrophe for half a second and considered it archaic and superfluous. The 'since' in the first example can be read two different ways, one of which may be incorrect. The second example starts with 'because', an odd sentence starter, and the third sentence sounds too casual. My example might be 'constipated' but it allows for specific details and doesn't create ambiguity. Zindor (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Zindor, I fear that we have to disagree. For me, "since" would only be ambiguous if it introduced one or more events (e.g. "Since both parents lost their jobs"), nothing seems even slightly odd about starting a sentence with "because", and nothing about the third option sounds particularly casual. -- Hoary (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

If you're worried about ambiguity, just turn the sentence the other way round: XXX was often responsible for child care because his/her parents worked XXX days per week. Elemimele (talk) 22:23, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

One would ordinarily precede "because" with either direct context or a clause. Example: ('X had to look after X because...'). You can read 'since' as meaning a) since the specific date the parents starting working that many days a week or b) just a general reference to the fact the parents work those days. 'As' seems casual to me but i admit it is the best option of the three. At the end of the day it's all English and doesn't really matter Zindor (talk) 22:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to Hoary for support, I also prefer an apostrophe on "parents". Elemimele, this is an elegant solution, thanks! Zindor, your suggestion of a clause to precede "because", is very sensible. Friends, sorry for the Tempest in the Teahouse! Years ago, I was dragged over the coals, per a similar use of "because". Yes, Zindor, I agree that it's all English, & perfectly understandable to me, as a native speaker. But one editor became very picky, and the nuances really mattered to them! So, I doubted my abilities. (45 years+ since middle school, etc, etc) Thanks to all, I have the confidence to proceed. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 02:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• The Guardian style guide, entry "as or since?", says: “As” is causal (...) “since” is temporal (...). Merriam-Webster says that’s snobbery, "since" can be used just fine as a causal link, and that some snobs might also object to "as" as causal. I have not looked much further but I suspect much ink (electronic or physical) has been spent on the subject.

@Tribe of Tiger: Your options are either to write whatever you want without thinking too much about it, or proposing an MOS entry for a point of übersnobbery. (Guess which one I recommend?) Tigraan^{[[User talk:|Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)]]} 16:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tigraan: Thanks for the excellent and interesting links, esp the Merriam-Webster essay. I am going with "because", prefaced by a clause, per Zindor's suggestion. Best, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 06:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Tigraan, those are some useful links but neither gives justification to start calling people snobs. I kindly ask that you keep those opinions to yourself. Thanks, Zindor (talk)

Tigraan (repointing ping)

@Zindor: if Merriam-Webster mentioned snobs, it was in a rather humorous manner. I don't see that Tigraan accused anyone of being a snob. Best, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 06:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tribe of Tiger: just for posterity's sake i'm going to address this. Merriam-Webster didn't use it, there was a throwaway comment at the end of the article about a related term, but no actual usage and not carte blanche to use snob thrice in a different context. The implication is clear from what's written above, that anyone prescribing to those certain views on grammar is apparently a snob. It's not the first time the term has been bandied about here at the Teahouse and it needed addressing. That's all, i'm not otherwise concerned, there's bound to be diverging views on a question of grammar. Zindor (talk) 10:57, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Zindor, I have read MW again and you are so obviously correct. Apologies for not reviewing carefully, prior to my comment. Thanks for explaining that the term has been a problem here at the Teahouse. Very respectfully, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 03:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia based on consensus or hierarchy?

I started to create pages for missing high impact academic journals. I included all necessary information to represent the journal and prove its notability. Two experienced editors rampaged my talk page with job description that I cannot leave the hard work to others for collecting further information. All the pages I created are more complete than at least 80% of similar pages on Wikipedia.

Why are older editors bossing new ones by telling what to do (not guide/assistance, but outlines of job description)?

Every page I created was in compliance with the policies. Where is it ruled that a journal page can be created if the name of the editor is added? If they feel it is needed, they can add it themselves. Why are they complaining that they are doing my job? What is my job here?

If Wikipedia (not one editor or two) does not want me to create missing pages, I can stop doing it; but why trolling me and my contributions? MojoDiJi (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi MojoDiJi, sorry to hear that you're feeling frustrated with your editing experience. Creating new articles is unfortunately relatively difficult. I looked at this article you created, Energy Storage Materials. While it's better than no article, it is very short and could do with some expansion. The page Wikipedia:WikiProject_Academic_Journals/Writing_guide was linked for you; the users who linked this are more experienced in this area than me. I would try to follow it when creating articles in the future. Also adding categories etc is needed for new articles. You could take more time to research first. I hope you still feel willing to contribute; we need editors, but creating new articles is a lot to get the hang of and it can take a while. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 22:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Rubbish computer: thanks for your kind message. As I mentioned before, these short articles are based on the template given to me by one of the editors. This is the common format for all journal pages. My problem is that they boss me that because I did not fill a few items on the template, they should clean up my mess to complete it. It is not my job. I have no obligation to provide all the information. I always add categories, but I don't understand the order that I must add all categories. MojoDiJi (talk) 00:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi MojoDiJi, no worries. You describe the articles you are creating as making a "mess". That's not how creating articles should go; while it's a lot to get the hang of, if you know you're creating a mess then it's disruptive editing. I would try to plan out the articles better in future, and try to follow the above guideline. While technically we're not obligated to absolutely do anything here, we should be contributing constructively, not making more work for other editors. I hope this helps, Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 00:38, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Rubbish computer: You misread me. My articles are nothing close to a mess. I create them based on the standard and common template for journals. The editors in question call it cleaning up the mess because they add more info (not changing, adding more). Nothing I ever created/edited was disruptive in any sense. MojoDiJi (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi MojoDiJi, while I don't doubt you have good intentions, this thread was started by you because you didn't like the messages left on your talk page. They're explaining that you need to meet certain quality standards when writing an article. Unfortunately it's not one that I'm that familiar with; not written about a journal before as far as I remember. I would re read that guideline and try to take the advice on board. I can also try to help, I don't know much about this area though. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 00:49, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Rubbish computer: It is not being me liking a message or not. It is not about about guidelines. A page, which is not according to the guidelines, can be deleted (but it was not the case). It is about dictating job descriptions for others. I like to create new pages. They say, no, you must spend your time to expand your articles because they don't like to do so. This is what I like to contribute to Wikipedia. What is wrong with that? MojoDiJi (talk) 01:01, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

MojoDiJi, I've given you the advice you need. You need to re-read that guideline, and follow certain minimal quality standards when creating an article. Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 01:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

MojoDiJi, Wiktionary defines rampage as "To move about wildly or violently". I have never previously seen it used to mean "politely request, providing reasons for doing so", or "politely second another person's polite and reasoned request". Here's one of your creations: Energy Storage Materials. There's no evidence within that stub that the journal in question has been discussed elsewhere. If it has been, then show that it has been. (Here's my own most recent creation. It's rather a mess, one that was improved in revisions made soon afterwards [some of them made by myself], but I think that even its very first version manages to indicate significance.) -- Hoary (talk) 22:16, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hoary: I will stop cleaning up your mess or cleaning up after you is very tedious about a volunteering contribution is polite to you? By clean up, they mean adding more information. MojoDiJi (talk) 00:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Let's look at this in context, MojoDiJi. It's not very collaborative to create scores of sub-stubs and leave it to others to do the hard work. You don't even tag articles for the appropriate WikiProjects on their talk pages. So do continue to "contribute to the comprehensiveness of Wikipedia" in a superficial way, but I will stop cleaning up your mess. "Clean up", means, I think, "attempt to transform into something worth viewing". The first two sentences seem polite to me. The invitation that's the first half of the third sentence seems unnecessarily hospitable, and the very last part just describes what Randykitty won't do. -- Hoary (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

MojoDiJi - To answer your title question, it's based on both hierarchy and consensus. New articles and article contributions by newer editors tend to be given extra scrutiny, while editors with longer editing histories are given more leeway. As a specific example of the fluid nature of the site, articles for deletion discussions and outcomes tend to fluctuate between consensus and policy, depending on how skilled the closer is at sifting through the arguments and making the right decision. So it's kind of like real life. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timtempleton: I have no problem with scrutiny, but commanding me that I must add information, which are not stated as mandatory in the official policy, is a different story. MojoDiJi (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

There's more than one obvious option, MojoDiJi: Add information to the substubs you've already created; create articles that aren't mere substubs; work on other, existing articles.... -- Hoary (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@MojoDiJi: I see that you gave a barnstar as your third edit, so I assume that you are somewhat familiar with the backstage process on Wikipedia, whether because you edited without an account before or just lurked long enough. I do not think you should cling to the mantle of "new editor" much longer.

You are entirely correct that creating incomplete stubs is allowed. Whether it is useful for our readers or not is debatable. But please consider that annoying other editors is a problem, even if you think you are 100% right and those other editors are idiots, divas, etc.. If lots of people wish that you would be blocked, even if you don’t actually get blocked, it makes editing a miserable experience.

Your behaviour is similar to deleting images without cleaning up the redlinks (an example taken from that humorous page). Deleting images according to policy is good, but leaving redlinks is bad, even if a lawyer-ish reading of WP:VOLUNTEER means you can do it without fear of administrative sanctions. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 15:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

How to propose a draft for deletion?

It seems to me that the draft Draft:Matt Walsh (pundit) should be deleted, as the page Matt Walsh (political commentator) is on the same subject; however I do not know how to let the editors know or propose it for deletion(the PROD says to use only on articles). Jaguarnik (talk) 03:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Jaguarnik: It's done via a process similar to Articles for Deletion; see WP:Miscellany for deletion. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 03:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

User:Jaguarnik - Please do not nominate drafts for deletion only because there is an article in article space. The draft should be redirected to the article, and that is what will normally be decided at MFD, but the deletion nomination is work for volunteer editors. Redirect the draft to the article. If you do nominate it for deletion, the MFD will normally be closed as Speedy Redirect. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Article Regrade?

Hello! I hope all is well!

Out of curiosity, I was wondering how the process works for getting an article regraded? Before any edits to my article, my article was a S (start class) rating and I wanted to see if the additions I made is enough to get it from an S grade to at least a C grade. If you have any information on getting my article graded, I would really much appreciate it.

Thank you,

Jtruongucr (talk) 06:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Up to C, and perhaps even up to B, it's informal. I've just now upgraded it to B. It's good, but it is rather wordy and even a little repetitive. Try reading it out loud: I think you'll find yourself thinking "Hmm, didn't I already say that?" -- Hoary (talk) 07:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the feedback and regrade! I will edit it and hopefully fix those wordy and repetitive errors! Thank you so much for the help, I really appreciate it

Jtruongucr (talk) 15:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Jtruongucr, I quote: Friday, 3 June 2022 / Milestones / Everyone should have finished all of the work they'll do on Wikipedia, and be ready for grading. Whew -- I hope you met that deadline. Anyway, well done. Even after the deadline (and any minor extension allowed to it), do please stick around, even if it's only for minor tinkering with what has already been written. -- Hoary (talk) 21:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

My professor kindly extended the deadline for us! I will stick around as I think this community is pretty cool and it's neat to edit articles that help educate others (even if I'm not the best writer ).

Jtruongucr (talk) 21:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hoary likes this. 07:59, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Link

Can someone link the article 2022 Trooping the Colour with the commons category c:Category:Trooping the Colour 2022? Peter Ormond 💬 10:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

It should have been as simple as adding {{Commons category|Trooping the Colour 2022}} to the article but previewing that gives an error related to Wikidata. I'll leave it to someone more experienced with the intricacies to sort this out.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I added the WD sitelink at 2022 Trooping the Colour (Q112169010). The situation is a bit crap, because some topics (not this one) have both a Commons gallery and a Commons category, then which one gets the sitelink? (the cat. is more preferred, but not universally so). ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 12:16, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

oops, forgot ping @Peter Ormond ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 12:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Question about a new User.

Hi, I have been editing off and on for about a decade. I had a question about a new user who joined this week, Achmad Rachmani, who focuses primarily on International versions of Television programmes, with a bit of grammar correction on the side. I've noticed that he likes to do a lot of small edits off and on over the course of many days. The programme that I know him from is Family Fortunes. Before his arrival, there was a list of International versions of Family Fortunes, about 6 or 7. Achmad proceeded to make 2 lists One was International versions and the second is now titled International versions which use similar elements to All Star Family Fortunes. Then he deleted the first grid International versions which featured actual versions of the programme. I try and correct certain mistakes he makes and he reverts them and then a few hours later he reverts the corrections that I made back on his own terms.

I see that he is correcting pages every day, doing small edits each day a little bit at a time, not all at once. He's a very busy guy. I see, there is a certain editor on Wikipedia, AldezD who sent him a message askig about his multiple minor edits and advised him to become a Pending Changes reviewer. He made the request early yesterday, but then deleted it after about an hour. It all seems a bit suspect to me.

I know that it's only one of the pages that I contribute to and I can lay off, but this editor is making continuous minor edits to the same pages, a little at a time each day, since he began earlier this week. They are erasing good data, and may continue in subsequent days perhaps making unnecessary edits. Iam not sure of the other programmes they edit, but they are getting a bit impossible with trying to figure them out. Can someone please give me advice on howw to handle them or other editors like him. Thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?target=Achmad+Rachmani&namespace=all&tagfilter=&start=&end=&title=Special%3AContributions&limit=50

135.0.252.54 (talk) 13:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• Well, the usual advice is to try to talk to them first, then follow the steps at WP:DR if that fails. Unless they are doing really wrong edits, in which case WP:AIV or WP:ANI is the way to go, but it does not apply here. In any case, you should come with specific WP:DIFFs of the specific edits that cause problems, not with a general complaint.

Now... I do find their editing pattern a bit weird. For the last four days (May 29 - June 2), they started editing around 1:30 - 2:00 (UTC), did at least one edit every 30 min, and stopped around 17:30 (UTC). Now, that’s not impossible, but it means they are editing nonstop for basically all the time they are awake (a 16-hour timespan). Achmad Rachmani, can you please confirm that you are not using automated or semi-automated tools to make edits? If you are, please stop right now and read Wikipedia:Bot policy first. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 15:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Tigraan for the advice. Maybe We should address his talk page to talk to him?

As for specific examples, I know that on the Family Fortunes entry before his arrival, there was a list of 7 international versions listed at the bottom of the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Family_Fortunes&diff=1090181931&oldid=1090124512. Achmad in his many edits on the page, got rid of some internatonal versions ansseperated the International versions into 2 grids International versions and International versions that use the same graphics.https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Family_Fortunes&diff=1090885280&oldid=1090885091. I fixed the header of the second grid, adding extra equals signs to make the header identical to the one on the top, he then reverted my edit soon after and about a few hours later, unexpectedly, went back to my edit. He soon after got rid of the "International versions" grid and kept the "use the same graphics" grid. Is this grid even valid and the original version simply listing the International versions would be better suited?

A couple of days later, he updated the name of the Irish show Alan Hughes Family Fotune to Alan Hughes' Family Fortune. To do a test, I reverted and rereverted the edit, keeping the added apostrophe to see what he would do, as I did not get rid of anything. Two Hours later, he himself unexplicably removed the apostrophe he added that morning. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Family_Fortunes&diff=1091158584&oldid=1091147387

The thing is I can forget about this for a while and let this go for the time being to let him have his fun, but, as you stated, he has a strange editing pattern with a passion for minor edits on various pages for many days straight. I can only vouch for what happens on Family Fortunes, but it just seems to me that something is weird with Achmad Rachmani.135.0.252.54 (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia page

Hello, i'm Musical artsit, how can i have Wikipedia page for myself? My knowledge panel : https://g.co/kgs/Ty7es8 Drillbaz (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Drillbaz: Welcome to the Teahouse. An article about you could be written if you meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines (some extra to consider for musicians). Having a Google Knowledge Panel does not have any bearing on Wikipedia's criteria. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

But note that if Wikipedia ever does have an article about you, it will not belong to you, will not be controlled by you, and may end up saying things that you would prefer it didn't say. Please see an article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. ColinFine (talk) 15:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

How to Improve Draft

Can anyone tell me please how can I improve this Draft:Lubna Marium draft? I have given a lot of references. I would be happy to tell you in detail how to do it. Thanks.--Ayatul nish (talk) 18:51, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ayatul nish: Get rid of EVERY CLAIM that is not cited to a source. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 19:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Jéské Couriano Didn't understand well. Would you please explain the details?--Ayatul nish (talk) 19:44, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Jeske possibly could be any more clear. Every statement needs to be sourced. PRAXIDICAE💕 19:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Praxidicae Ok thanks brother, If i do, i can expect good reviews right? Ayatul nish (talk) 20:14, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ayatul nish: Refer to the bottom table at User:Jéské Couriano/Decode and remember: YOU ASKED FOR THIS.

• Lubna has been part of Bangladesh’s Cultural Movement from childhood. - Source?
• Before the war in 1971 she participated in many demonstrations, rallies and cultural performances protesting oppression by the Pakistani regime. - Source?
• In 1971, with her family, she worked in the Kalyani Refugee Camp in India, under the aegis of the Cent for Communal Harmony run by the late Smt. Maitreyee Devi. - Source?
• Later, she was part of the Advanced Dressing Center in Sector 7 of the Mukti Bahini, where her father Lt.Col. Quazi Nooruzzaman was the Sector Commander of Sector 7. - Source?
• He was, later, one of the Founding Members of Ekattorer Ghatok Dalal Nirmul Committee.^[sic] - Source?
• Lubna can be seen in the film ‘Muktir Gaan’ as part of the ‘cultural troupe, named Bangladesh Mukti Shangrami Shilpi Shangstha which used to travel to refugee camps and different areas of the Mukta Anchal, to perform patriotic songs, arrange puppet shows and stage dramas to inspire the freedom fighters and refugees with the Spirit of Liberation. - Irrelevant/tangential and promotional; 86 this.
• Completed a ‘Pilot ICH inventory Project’, by UNESCO (Dhaka), involving local communities and practitioners on a selected number of intangible cultural heritages of Bangladesh in 2017. - Source?
• Researched and revived Bengal’s martial dance, ‘Raibesh’ and the medieval dance form ‘Charya Nritya’ within dance practice of Bangladesh. - Source?
• Researched and worked with folk theatre companies performing the ritual theatre of Manasa Mangal. - Source?
• Researched ‘Lathikhela’ country-wide in 2010 – 2016. - Source?
• Lubna was married to Jamal Ahmed Sufi, Managing Director of Charuta Private Ltd. - Source?
• Lubna’s father was Kazi Nuruzzaman and her mother Dr. Sultana Zaman Professor Emeritus of the University of Dhaka, was the founder of Bangladesh Protibandhi Foundation (BPF), an organization for the mentally disabled people. - Source?
• Dr. Sultana Zaman was awarded Begum Rokeya Padak in 2008 by the Government of Bangladesh. - Irrelevant. The article should be about Lubna, not her immediate family.
• Her daughter Anusheh Anadil is a Bangladeshi musician, artist, cultural activist. - Irrelevant.
• Lubna’s son, Kushan Omar Sufi, is a designer and musician. - Irrelevant.

EVERYTHING I called out above with "Source?" either needs to be properly cited to a source that corroborates it or straight-up removed. You CANNOT just slap sources at the end of the paragraph and call it good; they need to be cited at the claim itself. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 20:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I understand, thank you brother. I will do it the way you said. agin thanks.Ayatul nish (talk) 20:28, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ayatul nish The draft now says ...under the aegis of the Cent for Communal Harmony run by the late Smt. Maitreyee Devi. Two questions: if "Cent" means "Center", please spell it out. And what does "Smt." mean? 73.127.147.187 (talk) 02:58, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

 Note: OP has been blocked as a sockpuppet. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:01, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

http url wrongly rewritten as https for icecast.rte.ie in href

I tried to add a link to a file under http://icecast.rte.ie to ga.wikipedia.org but it seems wikipedia replaces http with https in the href for hosts in rte.ie even though icecast.rte.ie only serves http. I have had to use the nowiki tag to stop wikipedia from generating the broken href, or any href for that matter: surely this is a step backwards from the web of hyperlinks! How can I get wikipedia to respect my urls, particularly http? 121.127.206.113 (talk) 21:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

if you put brackets [ ] around the url it will preserve the http RudolfRed (talk) 22:36, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

[3] no it doesn't, as you can see here. 121.127.206.113 (talk) 22:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Wierd. I was using [4] and it seems to preserve the http for me in that case. Not sure how to solve your problem. If you don't get an answer here try WP:VPT RudolfRed (talk) 23:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

iirc the automatic converting to https is a change that happened on mediawiki several years ago as part of a greater expectation internet-wide that https should be the standard everywhere. If the external site doesn't handle the redirect to HTTP that's a problem on their end. I'm not sure why the example.com doesn't get changed but maybe it's whitelisted. Zindor (talk) 23:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Zindor we don't for all links to http, it is more nuanced, see the link below and the linked tasks if you want to know more. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:16, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Zindor (talk) 01:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#http_url_wrongly_rewritten_as_https_in_href_for_icecast.rte.ie where this was also explained. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Fake information (Treatment of Crimea on maps of Russia etc)

The map used in the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadan

Includes Crimea which is not an internationally recognized part of Russia.Magadan 84.28.243.32 (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

If you look closely (or click on the location map to see the file), you'll see that Crimea is colored with alternate yellow and gray stripes. That means that its status is disputed. Deor (talk) 22:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I actually mistook the link. I was referring to Magadan Oblast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadan_Oblast 84.28.243.32 (talk) 22:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Here as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukotka_Autonomous_Okrug 84.28.243.32 (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, if you find more please leave a message at my usertalk. I'm not promising I'll do anything about this, but I'm at least thinking about it. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac:, as the creator of a Russia map used on the Russia article NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Tools/gadgets for downloading references

I've become interested in a subject I know little about. To get started, I'd like to download ALL of the references cited in a given article (Eco-economic decoupling) into one local library, and then read offline at my leisure. Are there any scripts gadgets tools etc that help automate the download chore? Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:05, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy we do not have a utility for that, many references may not even be "downloadable" - as they could be books, journals, or other things that don't include a web address. You can browse down to the references section (Eco-economic_decoupling#Notes_and_references) and use your browser to open things that do have links in multiple tabs, - then use a browser extension of some sort. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:32, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Bummer but thanks for the reply. I use endnote. A script could do this, and generate a table reporting results, including "not downloaded, reason unknown" or whatever. If I care enough, I'll bring it bring it up at the Vpump NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:03, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Decline article

 Courtesy link: Draft:Don Destani
Hi dear Wikipedia team, hope you are doing well

I just made an article for one new artist, I wroted all what need bio, career etc... and on the end you declined my article can you please tell me more reason why did you do this to me?

Or you need more information about this Artist Don Destani!

Best Regards,

Naser Ademi Naserademi2 (talk) 00:20, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Naserademi2: Welcome to the Teahouse. As the reviewer noted, the sources used don't demonstrate the subject's notability as Wikipedia defines it. Resubmitting it without making any changes is likely to irk any reviewer looking at it in the future. Also, external links shouldn't go in the body of the article. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:46, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, @Naserademi2, your user page is a place to write a little about yourself as a Wikipedia editor. It is not for hosting promotional, unsourced content about an organization. It has already been deleted once - please do not continue restoring inappropriate material. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 01:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

It also appears to be a possible copyright violation of the About Us section of the store's website. @Naserademi2, you can not copy+paste from your sources into Wikipedia - you must paraphrase the information in your own words. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Naserademi2, do not remove posts of yours that have already received replies. They will be automatically archived after a few days of inactivity. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Removing deletion tag from copyright violating image

One user who copied a photo from Twitter at File:Dmitry Utkin.jpeg is edit warring to remove the speedy deletion tag.

This user has no license and no permission from the original poster. He believes that just because it was posted on Twitter, it means it should be posted here too. 106.222.78.155 (talk) 06:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Really? You surprise me. It seems to me that Abovfold isn't claiming "The fact that it's on Twitter means it should be on Wikipedia too", but instead is claiming "fair use" within a particular article. The teahouse isn't the right place either to debate whether a non-free file satisfies Wikipedia:Non-free content or to report edit warring. -- Hoary (talk) 08:14, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

On the english Wikipedia, non-freely licensed images are permitted under the US Fair Use doctrine, iff they meet all of the non-free content criteria (other Wikimedia Projects might have other rules, Wikimedia Commons and the German Wikipedia do not permit Fair Use images, for example). In this case, however, I am not convinced that this image meets Criterion 1, because it might be possible to create a free image, depending on how far the subject is involved within the current Russian-Ukrainian conflict. Victor Schmidt (talk) 08:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

How do you do the shortcut thing

i was on IPA when i saw this table.

		BL	LD	D	A	PA	RF	P	V	U	EG
Ejective	Stop	pʼ			tʼ		ʈʼ	cʼ	kʼ	qʼ	ʡʼ
	Affricate		p̪fʼ	t̪θʼ	tsʼ	t̠ʃʼ	tʂʼ	tɕʼ	kxʼ	qχʼ
	Fricative	ɸʼ	fʼ	θʼ	sʼ	ʃʼ	ʂʼ	ɕʼ	xʼ	χʼ
	Lateral affricate				tɬʼ			c𝼆ʼ	k𝼄ʼ	q𝼄ʼ
	Lateral fricative				ɬʼ
Click (top: velar; bottom: uvular)	Tenuis	kʘ qʘ		kǀ qǀ	kǃ qǃ		k𝼊 q𝼊	kǂ qǂ
	Voiced	ɡʘ ɢʘ		ɡǀ ɢǀ	ɡǃ ɢǃ		ɡ𝼊 ɢ𝼊	ɡǂ ɢǂ
	Nasal	ŋʘ ɴʘ		ŋǀ ɴǀ	ŋǃ ɴǃ		ŋ𝼊 ɴ𝼊	ŋǂ ɴǂ	ʞ
	Tenuis lateral				kǁ qǁ
	Voiced lateral				ɡǁ ɢǁ
	Nasal lateral				ŋǁ ɴǁ
Implosive	Voiced	ɓ			ɗ		ᶑ	ʄ	ɠ	ʛ
	Voiceless	ɓ̥			ɗ̥		ᶑ̊	ʄ̊	ɠ̊	ʛ̥

• IPA help
•  audio
• full chart
• template

Shaded areas denote articulations judged impossible.

the BL, LD, D, A, PA, RF and other stuff have dots underneath them and when i hover over them, my cursor changes to a question mark symbol (?) and a grey box appears with the meaning underneath my mouse. Leahnn Rey (talk) 08:03, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

hi @Leahnn Rey! that would be a tooltip, and you can do one using {{tooltip}}. for example: {{tooltip|Did you know...|...that Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia?}} to create Did you know... happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 08:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Wow thank you melecie. You're the best. Leahnn Rey (talk) 08:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

it is possible to get off earth so why havent we

we have been able to get off earth for multiple millenea so why are we still here 222.154.243.198 (talk) 08:36, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a question about the use of Wikipedia? -- Hoary (talk) 08:53, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I think this guy is a troll. Leahnn Rey (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

if trolls had been online in the silurian how would we know?NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Uploading and using photos

I have uploaded loads of photos of public transport and I will upload another ones to Commons: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedista:Penguin9/Moje_fotogalerie_MHD

Where can I tell to Wikipedists: “You have photos here, feel free to use some if you like them”?

Also, where can I find out which photos are needed to be uploaded? I will try to find them in my archive or take them. Penguin9 (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Penguin9, welcome. The most central place to let people know about the photos would be to post on the talk page/discussion board of the related Wikiproject, additionally if there is a specific article you think could benefit from them but are unsure about whether to add them, you could post on the article's talk page, or just be bold and add them. As an example you could post on the talk page of Wikiproject Czech Republic. To find out some articles that are missing images you can look in the related category, such as Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in the Czech Republic. Thanks, Zindor (talk) 11:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

That's an excellent gallery, Penguin9. But perhaps it would be better at commons:User:Penguin9 (or a subpage thereof). Or if you'd prefer to leave it where it is, then on commons:User:Penguin9 you might say a little about what people will see if they click the link to cs:Wikipedista:Penguin9/Moje_fotogalerie_MHD. And ... Ostrava! It's odd: the images I have of the city are those of Viktor Kolář. -- Hoary (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Aditing

can I please get help about aditing am struggling and how to share some of my biography I wanna right a story about my life and share it with the world P.V.Mkhaliphi (talk) 13:19, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want to write a story about your life and share it with the world, Phumzza, please do so on your own website. This is an encyclopedia, not a collection of autobiographies. -- Hoary (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

P.V.Mkhaliphi, Wikipedia, unlike Facebook, is not the place to post poems or to ask for help with life's problems. Wikipedia is not social media. --Quisqualis (talk) 22:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm getting confused

So I created this article under three months ago, where there was general consensus that it should be published to mainspace and it somehow barely does not fail WP:BLP1E (courtesy link here). But then someone redirected it back, saying it does fail BLP1E. I opened a discussion at Talk:Toki Pona to gather some consensus, but I thought I might seek more community input here. Thank you. — 3PPYB6 — TALK — CONTRIBS — 13:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, 3PPYB6, welcome. You're doing the right thing by discussing the situation with those involved. For future reference though, while the Teahouse is central, it's not a noticeboard. Regards, Zindor (talk) 14:04, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Two questions related to editing a Wikipedia article

That is my talk with one of editor. Please read and answer my questions!

Me :- you removed my edit from Umran Malik without any significant reason. I added references and nothing was puffery there every reference is from reliable website. I did everything according to Wikipedia Guidelines. You should have to explain me reason or revert your edit! -Gorav Sharma Thegoravsharma (talk) 14:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Editor :- Hi. You added "He is famous for his fast bowling and is considered to be India's fastest bowler at present." That's not encyclopedic for starters. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 14:58, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Me :- Ohk! I have two questions : Q1) After how many edits i won't be a beginner? Q2) Wikipedia article related to your point “That's not encyclopedic for starters”? Thegoravsharma (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Editor :- Hi. Please ask at the WP:TEAHOUSE - it's the place for new editors to raise questions. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 15:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC) Thegoravsharma (talk) 15:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thegoravsharma, there is no specific amount of edits required for you to "not be a beginner". You need to have a clear understanding of the editing guidelines. Articles need to be written from a neutral point of view, and be backed with reliable sources. Also keep in mind to avoid puffery. Thanks, Kpddg ^(talk) 16:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Further, to be more specific, the bowling speeds of the article subject is already mentioned. He has not yet represented the national team as well. Kpddg ^(talk) 16:33, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Would I be fit for being an Edit Filter Helper?

I am wondering whether I am qualified enough to become an edit filter helper if I want to help with AIV. Thank you! NotReallySoroka (talk) 16:42, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi NotReallySoroka, you could ask at Wikipedia:Edit filter noticeboard. Cheers, Rubbish computer Ping me or leave a message on my talk page 17:07, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Can someone close this RfC?

This RfC has been open for a month. Can someone close it please? JimKaatFan (talk) 19:51, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan You need to post on WP:ANRFC Venkat TL (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Articles Not Showing On Google

Dear community, I have worked on this articles for sometime now but they do not show up on Google search. What might be the reason?

Thanks

1. Tima Kumkum
2. Ghandour Cosmetics Limited
3. DJ Loft
4. Kweku Darlington

Dallez (talk) 00:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Hello, Dallez. A new article has a hidden noindex tag that prevents search engines from indexing it. The tag goes away if a new page patroller marks the article as patrolled/reviewed, or if 90 days goes by without a review. An exception is that highly experienced editors who have created many problem-free articles may be granted the autopatrolled user right. Their articles are indexed by search engines promptly, often in minutes. See WP:NOINDEX and WP:AUTOPATROL for more information. Cullen328 (talk) 01:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dallez: If you want to find out if a page can be indexed by robots, you can press "Page Information" in the sidebar. There'll be a row that says "Indexing by robots: Allowed" or "Indexing by robots: Disallowed." As Cullen328 said, articles are indexed if they are over 90 days old or are marked as reviewed. I.hate.spam.mail.here (message me | my contributions) 05:29, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@I.hate.spam.mail.here: I am afraid that is this incorrect. The Search engine status listed in the page information does not reflect the actual status in all cases. Ghandour Cosmetics Limited, for example, is flagged as allowing search engine indexing in its page information, however, it is still flagged as <meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow"> in the HTML source. AFAIK the only reliable method to determine wether a page is allowing indexing is to look for the robots meta tag in the HTML source. Victor Schmidt (talk) 07:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, Cullen328 Victor Schmidt — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dallez (talk • contribs) 08:39, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Surname Links

Question 1:Template:Surname links provides a useful link to Living People. For example, Living People whose surname is Smith is this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Living_people&from=Smith . If you use that link in the See Also section of the Smith (surname) page, then XTools (https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Smith_(surname)) flags an error and says "The script finds an external link that should be replaced with a wikilink." (It doesn't do that now as this is just an example). Is there a wikilink for this URL?

Question 2: Template:Look from provides a list of pages beginning with Smith, for example. Is there any template or way to search for pages ending in a word or phrase? 2A00:23C8:4384:FB01:6CC0:F487:94EC:C4DE (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I.P. , just to partially answer Q1, it would be more appropriate in an article to link to List of people with surname Smith instead of a category page, as categories are for maintenance purposes rather than for readers Zindor (talk)

Thank you. I delete my first question then! 2A00:23C8:4384:FB01:6CC0:F487:94EC:C4DE (talk) 01:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Talk to improve the page.

Historians are confused about the history of Prithviraj Chauhan. Books which do not match with history should be removed from this page. That's why it is necessary to have this conversation. -- Karsan Chanda (talk) 01:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC) Karsan Chanda (talk) 01:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

References

hi @Karsan Chanda and welcome to the teahouse! the proper place to have this talk would be at Talk:Prithviraj Chauhan, where you can get inputs from those watching the article. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 01:55, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Isabella Macdonald Macdonald or Isabella Macdonald ??

Hello, I wonder whether Isabella Macdonald Macdonald is her real name or if it could be Isabella Macdonald (a printing mistake of the BMJ ?) BMJ wrote "Isabella Macdonald Macdonald" [5] The Times wrote "Isabella Macdonald" [6]. Her sister is Louisa Macdonald. [7] Best regards, Pierrette13 (talk) 07:20, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Pierrette13!

You can ask this question on the talk page of the article. I noticed there are two articles: Isabella Macdonald and Isabella Macdonald Macdonald so you might be confusing them.

If you have any questions, you can leave them on my talk page. Rhinocesus (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Rhinocesus:, thank you for your answer. Isabella Macdonald is someone else (Canadian lady). --Pierrette13 (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

"Isabella Macdonald (physician)" could be a better title, but again, I'm not sure what's "best" here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Pierrette13 Good question. I think these names do exist, but "Isabella Macdonald" may be the WP:COMMONNAME anyway, it's hard to say per sources in the article. You could try asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: and thank you. There is such a lack of sources that it's for the moment impossible to understand where the "Macdonald Macdonald" comes from. Best regards, --Pierrette13 (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

It could be the result of her marrying a man with the surname Macdonald. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Please help me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alvinsaldanhaecd/Dayana_Erappa I am uploading links and references. Please do not delete my page. Alvin J Saldanha 10:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alvinsaldanhaecd (talk • contribs)

hi Alvinsaldanhaecd and welcome to the teahouse! drafts won't typically be deleted unless it's been 6 months, so as long as you're actively working on your draft, it probably won't be deleted. happy editing! (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this: ~~~~. Or, you can use the [ reply ] button, which automatically signs posts.) 💜  melecie  talk - 11:02, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Alvinsaldanhaecd, I imagine that you want this to become an article. I quote from it: Erappa has been the lead model and a key part of campaigns for [list of over twenty brands] -- with a total of zero references. You'll need to cite a reference for each brand, and the references must be independent of her. -- Hoary (talk) 11:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

How long does it take before a new article show up on google search , article I created not showing

Hello Wikipedia editors, I’m delighted to ask questions, we have more experience editors here, I’d want to know how long those a new article that has lasted for more than a week take to show up on search engine like google. The article has been edited be different editors yet it’s not showing on google search, someone should help. this is the article Dotun Oladipo , I just need clarification on this. Thanks Kenpmi (talk) 11:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

hi @Kenpmi and welcome to the teahouse! pages aren't shown by search engines unless it has been reviewed by a new page patroller. however if it takes 90 days before it could be reviewed, it will be shown by search engines by then. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 11:39, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

why

why did wiki revert my edit even though it was true? 2405:6E00:1E62:C401:8835:8414:CF36:7484 (talk) 11:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Your edits were reverted because you did not provide reliable sources. Kpddg ^(talk) 11:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Assuming you mean your edits here [8], see WP:VANDAL. If you want to play, go somewhere else. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)All content on Wikipedia must be verifiable. You might know its true, however, to the furthest of my knowledge it is not possible to tell who is on the other end of the Network cable. The verifiability requirements are particularely strict for living (and recently departed) people, because we're not interested in a rerun of this. See also: Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth Victor Schmidt (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

And it's unlikely that person was 500 or even 223 cm tall. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Companions of Liberation

I am making a draft on Companions of Liberation, but an article on the list of Companions already exists. Since my draft is a translation of the same in French and that the article is just majorly the list, can I merge this list to my article after completion (or delete the list and keep mine because it contains the list + extra info)? Excellenc1 (talk) 12:37, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Excellenc1, welcome to the Teahouse! Merging seems a better choice to me. However, I think discussing it at the talk page of the article or the relevant Wikiprojects should be the first step. Regards. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 18:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Can someone please help me align the text in this table to the left

"Der Fischer"

"The Fisher"

Das Wasser rauscht', das Wasser schwoll, Ein Fischer saß daran, Sah nach dem Angel ruhevoll, Kühl bis ans Herz hinan. Und wie er sitzt und wie er lauscht, Teilt sich die Flut empor: Aus dem bewegten Wasser rauscht Ein feuchtes Weib hervor. Sie sang zu ihm, sie sprach zu ihm: »Was lockst du meine Brut Mit Menschenwitz und Menschenlist Hinauf in Todesglut? Ach wüßtest du, wie's Fischlein ist So wohlig auf dem Grund, Du stiegst herunter, wie du bist, Und würdest erst gesund. Labt sich die liebe Sonne nicht, Der Mond sich nicht im Meer? Kehrt wellenatmend ihr Gesicht Nicht doppelt schöner her? Lockt dich der tiefe Himmel nicht, Das feuchtverklärte Blau? Lockt dich dein eigen Angesicht Nicht her in ew'gen Tau?« Das Wasser rauscht', das Wasser schwoll, Netzt' ihm den nackten Fuß; Sein Herz wuchs ihm so sehnsuchtsvoll Wie bei der Liebsten Gruß. Sie sprach zu ihm, sie sang zu ihm; Da war's um ihn geschehn; Halb zog sie ihn, halb sank er hin Und ward nicht mehr gesehn.

The waters purled, the waters swelled,— A fisher sat near by, And earnestly his line beheld With tranquil heart and eye; And while he sits and watches there, He sees the waves divide, And, lo! a maid, with glistening hair, Springs from the troubled tide. She sang to him, she spake to him,— “Why lur’st thou from below, In cruel mood, my tender brood, To die in day’s fierce glow? Ah! didst thou know how sweetly there The little fishes dwell, Thou wouldst come down their lot to share, And be forever well. “Bathes not the smiling sun at night— The moon too—in the waves? Comes he not forth more fresh and bright From ocean’s cooling caves? Canst thou unmoved that deep world see, That heaven of tranquil blue, Where thine own face is beckoning thee Down to the eternal dew?” The waters purled, the waters swelled, They kissed his naked feet; His heart a nameless transport held, As if his love did greet. She spake to him, she sang to him; Then all with him was o’er,— Half drew she him, half sank he in,— He sank to rise no more.

𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ficaia, I hope you don't mind, i've done it in the table you posted. Is that better? Poetry is often presented centrally, i'm actually not sure of en-wiki standard though. Regards, Zindor (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You might want to use template:verse translation instead. --small jars tc 13:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Zindor:, @SmallJarsWithGreenLabels: Thanks for your help. Now I'm wondering why the 2 columns of text don't want to align properly. Hmmmm. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ficaia, it's the non-strict inline styling, which is a practice best avoided as it has varying results and is time-consuming to fix. In other words, if you remove the instances of &nbsp ; the text will align itself flush left. The <br> tags could be replaced with wikitext but that's not needed for the alignment to work Zindor (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I've removed them now to illustrate the change Zindor (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

A very minor point, but I hope that font-weight:bold; will go. -- Hoary (talk) 13:35, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, as far as i'm concerned you're welcome to remove it entirely or replace it with a non-deprecated attribute, i just slipped it in quickly to remain consistent with style of the original table. Zindor (talk) 13:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, folks 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Dutch name sorting and capitalising

Hello,
As explained in more depth here and here, Dutch names that have prepositions, do not have the preposition capitalised. They are also not sorted by preposition. Both these things happen regularly on EN:WP and I find myself fixing that equally regularly when I come across it. Both of these do happen correctly when such Dutch people (and their descendants) immigrate. Example:Martin Van Buren.
I came across Mark Van Drumpt in Category:Sportspeople from Arnhem and fixed his name to Mark van Drumpt. However, this man is only notable for things he did in Ireland and so I was wondering if What I did was correct. 2nd Q.) He is defaultsorted by Van Drumpt. Do I leave this as is? Change it to Drumpt? Or, do I use the |pipe and do it different for Irish and Dutch categories? Dutchy45 (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dutchy45: Welcome to the Teahouse. This is one of those Wikipedia things that can be confusing to maneuver around. This subsection in Wikipedia:Categorization of people acknowledges that categorisation of people when they have particles in their names can depend on factors like individual's personal preference, traditional cultural usage or the custom's of one's nationality. You may want to ask at a place like Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories for additional, more specialised input. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 13:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tenryuu Ok I will, but what about Van/van? Dutchy45 (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dutchy45: Again, that's something you should discuss with Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories or on the article's talk page, especially when sources seem to refer to him with and without the capitalisation —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

How can I have my user talk page under archives?

I'm wanting a Wikipedia page archiving robot to archive my user talk page before she gets too long. How can I make these requests? Angela Kate Maureen Pears 13:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tropical Storm Angela, see Help:Archiving a talk page. Kpddg ^(talk) 15:37, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Tropical Storm Angela, would you like someone to give you a hand sorting this out? I'm not great with archiving, otherwise i'd help, but i'm sure someone else here would be able to lend a hand. Kind regards, Zindor (talk) 18:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes! I'd like someone to lend a personal hand before my own user talk page extends much too long. Angela Kate Maureen Pears 20:02, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok, great, hopefully someone notices and is able to give you a hand today. Otherwise i'll see what i can do tomorrow. Zindor (talk) 20:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ref Error

FYI

 – I added section header Kpddg ^(talk) 15:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. My 1st visit to the Teahouse. I'm having trouble w the Journal template on a new article:

Gertrude Sans Souci

spec. I keep getting error messages on ref 5:

{{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

What's wrong with the date? And why {{cite journal}} warning? I'm accessing JSTOR through Hennepin Co. Library. Help appreciated.

DET (talk) 14:55, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Davidevanthomas, I have fixed the problem in this edit. Kpddg ^(talk) 15:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

How can you prevent persistent rejection of facts from a vexatious editor?

Hi - I am the Club Secretary of Wanderers Football Club. The original club, as you can see in the Wikipedia entry, was formed in 1859 but folded in 1887. I reformed the club with the endorsement of the original club's great-grand-daughter (proof of which I have via email). We have been recognised by the Football Association as the continuation of the original club - of which I have photographic evidence, including the FA Chairman and I at a restaging of the 1872 FA Cup Final at The Oval in 2012, the secretary and chairman of the Royal Engineers and the secretary and chairman of Wanderers launching the FA Cup tournament in 2012, and video footage from the widely viewed 2022 FA Cup Final when the chairman of the Royal Engineers and I were invited - by the FA - to parade the former FA Cup trophies on to the pitch at Wembley. There is absolutely nothing in any formal documentary evidence to suggest that the Wanderers (2009- ) is not a direct continuation from Wanderers (1859-1887?). However, two users seem set on dismantling the information about our club. I do not know who they are or why they are doing it and I am not sure how best to resolve this issue - or how best to share the evidence I have, if this were appropriate to add to the sum knowledge of Wikipedia. Can anybody help? Ukmarkwilson (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Wanderers F.C. Relevant discussion on talk. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 15:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ukmarkwilson, the best place to resolve such issues and present evidence is the talk page of the article. Reviving an old club isn't uncommon (Alumni Athletic Club vs Asociación Alumni, for instance) but claiming to be a direct continuation is liable to be controversial, especially when claiming the old honors/titles (see all the wrangling between FCSB and CSA SB). Photographic evidence and video footage are not going to meet our standards for sourcing, unfortunately; see Zindor's post below about that. If your club ever becomes notable by our standards ("Club notability" at WP:FOOTYN offers guidance) it will probably just get its own article with a mention of the tie to the original. 97.113.167.129 (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Ukmarkwilson, unless i'm missing something, a gap of over a century would by definition be a lack of continuation. Have you found coverage in independent reliable sources that say specifically that the new club called Wanderers F.C is the same club as the one dissolved in 1887? Zindor (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Ukmarkwilson A key aspect of Wikipedia is assume good faith. I haven't reviewed the edits in question here, but the term "vexatious editor" is a serious accusation that needs evidence. I'm not soliciting that evidence here, but please keep that in mind. 331dot (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ukmarkwilson: This tangential to your question, but if you're going to be writing about your continuation of Wanderers F.C. on Wikipedia, please specify that you are the Club Secretary of the club on your user page per WP:DISCLOSE. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ukmarkwilson, you write "There is absolutely nothing ... to suggest that the Wanderers (2009- ) is not a direct continuation from Wanderers (1859-1887?)". Sure, but absence of evidence is not proof, at least by Wikipedia's standards. If you want to make this claim in a Wikipedia article, you're going to need to cite a reliable published source for it. Maproom (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Report

Hi, I maybe found an editor that have 2 other accounts and im quite sure about that 'cause those two accounts do the same edits, write the same things and one of this accounts entered into the talk page of the editor in question claiming to be another editor who had been making edits of that type for months, in reality this account has only existed for 2 days and also, if it were really another editor, he should not know about the conversation between me and the editor, but strangely he know about the conversation. However, I would like to report this fact and also the fact that the editor previously ignored me when I tried to talk to him about some of my changes that he undo. User:MorteBiancaFan MorteBiancaFan (talk) 15:35, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, @MorteBiancaFan, and welcome to the Teahouse! Please see WP:Sockpuppetry for more information. At this stage, it would be great if you could start a sockpuppet investigation into the users, and provide evidence like diffs to support your claims. If you need anymore help, feel free to ask here. Have a great day! HenryTemplo (talk) 16:03, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Propose re-adding Muslim League Attack book

The article on the book "Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947" got deleted on what seems to me were very weak grounds. (Here's an archived copy of the article and here's the AfD discussion.) What steps would I take to propose reversing this decision? Fabrickator (talk) 16:20, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fabrickator, you can follow the steps at Wikipedia:Deletion review. Kpddg ^(talk) 16:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Fabrickator. See WP:DELREV. ColinFine (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Fabrickator, if you want Wikipedia to have an article on the book, I think you'd do best to start afresh – the archived version cited no sources, and the referencing of the version discussed in the AFD was not great. Your first step should be to find several reliable independent published sources with extensive discussion of the book. Once you've done that, the rest should be easy: write the article basing it on what the sources say, citing them as you go. Maproom (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

That. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Date of death

"Rotha Beryl Lintorn Lintorn-Orman (7 February 1895 – 10 March 1935) Born 7 February 1895 London, United Kingdom Died 10 May 1935 (aged 40)"

10 March 1935\10 May 1935??? 31.173.81.8 (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

This is about Rotha Lintorn-Orman. Her gravestone, as cited in the article, gives her date of death as "10th March, 1935". Do you know of a source that says otherwise? Maproom (talk) 20:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe the user was trying to highlight that there was a confusion in the article regarding March/May. Lead and body of the article (and the gravestone) stated March, whereas the infobox stated May. I have fixed the date of death in the infobox now. – NJD-DE (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia Statistics

I am wondering if there is a way to see my user statistics such as the date I created my account, the date I gained access to the Wikipedia library, and the number of edits I have done.

ScientistBuilder (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@ScientistBuilder: Your preferences page lists your number of edits and the date your account was created. Dunno about Wikipedia Library access. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 20:32, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, ScientistBuilder. Go to your userpage, and click the "User contribution" link in the left menu. Scroll to the very bottom and click "Edit count". You will find a wide variety of statistics. Cullen328 (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Color templates not working in sig

Hi. When I try to add a color, say aqua, into my sig, it doesn’t turn to that color, but is just the blue link to my user page instead, like this:blueskiesdry... 22:21, 5 June 2022 (UTC). Any idea how to fix this?

Would this be okay for the sandbox?

Is it okay to paste an American English article in the sandbox and translate it to omorocononogolosoho? (American English O's, not significantly related to Cheerios)

Example: Google's free service instantly translates words, phrases, and web pages between English and over 100 other languages

Translated Example: ogogolosoforo, osorovoconosotonotolo, otoronosolotosoworodoso, opohorososonodo, owobopogosobotowono, onogolosohonodo, ovoronohonodorodo, otohorolonogogoso

>Convert all numbers to English word equivalents >Replace all vowels with o >Put an o between each two consecutive consonants >Any 'word' with 3 or fewer consonants is concatenated with the previous 'word', or the next 'word' if no previous 'word' is present. >Any two or more adjacent o's become one o, otoono becomes otono

Use Google translate to parse the paragraph if you want to hear it.

2600:6C4E:1200:1E85:B039:FC34:FBAE:FD28 (talk) 22:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)