This candidates page is integrated with the daily pages of Portal:Current events. A light green header appears under each daily section – it includes transcluded Portal:Current events items for that day. You can discuss ITN candidates under the header.
Blurbs are one-sentence summaries of the news story.
Altblurbs, labelled alt1, alt2, etc., are alternative suggestions to cover the same story.
A target article, bolded in text, is the focus of the story. Each blurb must have at least one such article, but you may also link non-target articles.
Articles in the Ongoing line describe events getting continuous coverage.
The Recent deaths (RD) line includes any living thing whose death was recently announced. Consensus may decide to create a blurb for a recent death.
All articles linked in the ITN template must pass our standards of review. They should be up-to-date, demonstrate relevance via good sourcing and have at least an acceptable quality.
Nomination steps
Make sure the item you want to nominate has an article that meets our minimum requirements and contains reliable coverage of a current event you want to create a blurb about. We will not post about events described in an article that fails our quality standards.
Find the correct section below for the date of the event (not the date nominated). Do not add sections for new dates manually – a bot does that for us each day at midnight (UTC).
Create a level 4 header with the article name (==== Your article here ====). Add (RD) or (Ongoing) if appropriate.
Then paste the {{ITN candidate}} template with its parameters and fill them in. The news source should be reliable, support your nomination and be in the article. Write your blurb in simple present tense. Below the template, briefly explain why we should post that event. After that, save your edit. Your nomination is ready!
You may add {{ITN note}} to the target article's talk page to let editors know about your nomination.
The better your article's quality, the better it covers the event and the wider its perceived significance (see WP:ITNSIGNIF for details), the better your chances of getting the blurb posted.
When the article is ready, updated and there is consensus to post, you can mark the item as (Ready). Remove that wording if you feel the article fails any of these necessary criteria.
Admins should always separately verify whether these criteria are met before posting blurbs marked (Ready). For more guidance, check WP:ITN/A.
If satisfied, change the header to (Posted).
Where there is no consensus, or the article's quality remains poor, change the header to (Closed) or (Not posted).
Sometimes, editors ask to retract an already-posted nomination because of a fundamental error or because consensus changed. If you feel the community supports this, remove the item and mark the item as (Pulled).
Voicing an opinion on an item
Format your comment to contain "support" or "oppose", and include a rationale for your choice. In particular, address the notability of the event, the quality of the article, and whether it has been updated.
Pick an older item to review near the bottom of this page, before the eligibility runs out and the item scrolls off the page and gets abandoned in the archive, unused and forgotten.
Review an item even if it has already been reviewed by another user. You may be the first to spot a problem, or the first to confirm that an identified problem was fixed. Piling on the list of "support!" votes will help administrators see what is ready to be posted on the Main Page.
Tell about problems in articles if you see them. Be bold and fix them yourself if you know how, or tell others if it's not possible.
Add simple "support!" or "oppose!" votes without including your reasons. Similarly, curt replies such as "who?", "meh", or "duh!" are not helpful. A vote without reasoning means little for us, please elaborate yourself.
Oppose an item just because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. We post a lot of such content, so these comments are generally unproductive.
Accuse other editors of supporting, opposing or nominating due to a personal bias (such as ethnocentrism). We at ITN do not handle conflicts of interest.
Comment on a story without first reading the relevant article(s).
2011 Yemeni protests: At least nine people are killed and dozens injured in the Yemeni capital Sana'a after security forces use tear gas and live ammunition to disperse anti-government protesters. (VoA)(BBC)
The United StatesDepartment of Commerce reports that U.S. retail sales rose at their fastest rate for seven months in September, having risen by 1.1% over the previous month. (BBC)
Riot police clash with protesters in Rome, with at least 70 people reportedly injured after masked rioters infiltrate the peaceful protests and attack property in the city. (BBC)
Nominator's comments: The soldiers “will not themselves engage LRA forces unless necessary for self-defense.” But I still consider it notable that the US is becoming involved in what is effectively a war. Thue
comment If this is going to be posted, it should say "Obama notifies Congress" he is sending troops. Not "America". He is acting on his own without authority. μηδείς (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, he is the executive branch of the US government, so it is not unreasonable to say "the US does", when it is Obama who gives the order. Also, he does cite the Lord's Resistance Army Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act which authorizes the "increased, comprehensive U.S. efforts to help mitigate and eliminate the threat posed by the LRA to civilians and regional stability" according to the NYT article. Without looking into it more deeply, that sentense does arguably give him the authority from Congress to send military advisers. Thue | talk23:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A quote from the law passed by Congress, my bolding: providing political, economic, military, and intelligence support for viable multilateral efforts to protect civilians from the Lord’s Resistance Army, to apprehend or remove Joseph Kony and his top commanders from the battlefield in the continued absence of a negotiated solution, and to disarm and demobilize the remaining Lord’s Resistance Army fighters. Thue | talk23:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that the target group will be worried about the internal US politics that bothers Medeis. They will just see Americans with guns. HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Fighting has been going on for decades, with hundreds of African troops dead. The U.S. sending a few advisers that won't actually be fighting anybody is not a significant development in this story. Nightw12:45, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
LRA has been supported by Sudan, but now that South Sudan has split off, perhaps the LRA will be more vulnerable. So there is a god chance that fighting will not continue for decades more. Perhaps the sending of the military advisers is happening now, because the LRA is vulnerable? Thue | talk19:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it's easy to underestimate the impact of military advisers. What many of the government forces in central African states need is qualified leadership, and the U.S. troops are a great contribution to this scarcity. Besides, sending military advisers is often a prelude to sending actual troops, as countless wars in the past (e.g. Vietnam) have taught us. JimSukwutput16:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thousands of Qantas passengers in Australia face further disruption and cancellation of flights as the airline's maintenance engineers go on strike. (SBS)
Nominator's comments: We posted some relatively minor stuff about Apple blocking sales of some unpopular tablet computers in the past. iPhone is Apple's biggest revenue generator and this launch is expected by some to be one of Apple's biggest product launches ever. Side note: how much longer until we get a featured picture on an iPhone? [1]? --MarcusQwertyus13:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If all we can say is that Apple launches an updated version of an existing product line, then I don't think it rises to anywhere near ITN level. If it were the biggest launch ever for the company (or something like that) then I would reconsider. Dragons flight (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - it's already out over here (Australia) so announcing it now a) sounds like an advert and b) is a bit US-centric (or anti-Australia, who cares). — Joseph Fox15:08, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It would have to be a truly exceptional new product to justify including a product-launch in the ITN - something along the lines of Ford starts selling jetpacks its alongside cars. Version X.0 of a product that has been around for years has WP:SNOW chance. DeterenceTalk18:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think people underestimate the impact of commercial technology. I'm no Apple fanboy, but the change in people's lives around the world because of smartphones like iPhone has been tremendous. The launch of the latest generation in this series is certainly more notable than the discovery of a piece of poetry or an obscure old athlete passing away. JimSukwutput18:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed (ish), but I'm afraid I take a slightly more, well old school paternalistic view. Wikipedia has no commercial position in relation to our content per WP:NPOV. The purpose of Wikipedia, as a reference work, is presumably educational. The main body of the work is as an encyclopedia. The front page serves to attract readers to articles. Given that we have no commercial bias to promoting our work on apple phones or 14th century poets one could argue we should add more weight to obscure old athletes rather than an event that it being currently covered across numerous websites .... and to which Wikipedia will add no current value to the reader in terms of content. I'd also note, Jim, that if additional verses of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight or anything by Chaucer, let alone The Bard turned up you'd be looking rather silly with your above comments..... Pedro : Chat 20:03, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This will be the last ITN nomination from me, hopefully for a very, very long time. I add it because there are new developments, and the story as a whole has been severely underreported relative to the human cost. - Tenebris 11:38, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. Your report is almost a month old, and I don't see any recent news coverage to justify publishing this on ITN at this point. This news is too stale. Dragons flight (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I doubled the line to put two sources, one blisteringly new (about the torrential rains), but only the older contextual one showed up in the template. I removed it for clarity and replaced the other one with something two weeks old but quite a bit broader. Btw - can I point out that this very much is still a news item, even a front page news item in most parts of the world? The story may not be a clean-cut single event such as "new iPhone released", but things are still getting significantly worse, not better. After all, over 60,000 children have already died, and continue to die at a rate of about six children every minute. Is this noteworthy enough? If you want to see coverage, just type "Horn of Africa" into your average Google news search and see how much comes up -- but clear your cookies first. Google now shows you news stories according to your past preferences, so if you have not clicked on this kind of story in a while, it won't come up at all now. - Tenebris 04:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
For once, something that already exists on Wikipedia. Note that there should be other names in that template (eg. people who worked on the European debt crisis article), but I don't know which ones would be appropriate. Also recommend that the European debt crisis be made an ITN sticky, probably through the rest of this month at a minimum. - Tenebris 02:13, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Oops, I did that wrong. Here is the correct article link. - Tenebris 06:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Support - Pending an update for the article (I don't see any as of this time.) May have to reword the blurb a bit, and I'd bold the 'European Debt Crisis' link to indicate the article in question, but I agree with this nomination as important and noteworthy for ITN. This is another big step downward for this crisis, in my view, and has serious implications for the global economy. Jusdafax06:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support after update - The European financial crisis is significant, and this is especially interesting because of Spain's past default. Mamyles (talk) 12:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The European debt crisis is notable; the downgrading of one country's debt by one specific credit agency is not. This is clearly not comparable to the U.S.'s downgrading - the U.S. debt was long seen as completely risk-free, and was also much, much larger in size than Spain's (around 14 trillion vs. 0.8 trillion). 128.151.150.1 (talk) 17:37, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support While this is obviously not as notable as the credit downgrading of the USA, this is a significant milestone in the European Debt Crisis. Of course, we'll have to be rather more selective if the domino effect kicks-in upon the European countries. DeterenceTalk18:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As Hut 8.5 said, this isn't really the first case. Spain and Italy were downgraded just last week by an equally notable credit agency. And all the countries at the periphery of the Eurozone has been receiving periodical downgrades since three years ago. Remember that there are more than ten different credit ratings for each agency. S&P has around 15. If you imagine there is a "point" system, this is something like going from 12 points to 11 points, in S&P's subjective point of view. If you think of it that way, this isn't really all that exciting.
Yes -- and the ITN silence at that time was deafening. Maybe the real question is, how many Eurozone country downgrades does it take to equal a single United States downgrade in noteworthiness? - Tenebris 04:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
There's a good way to see if this is actually consequential on its own (rather than purely symbolic) - judging the stock market reactions. IBEX shows that the Spanish stock exchange actually rose slightly today. JimSukwutput18:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the stockmarket is not a reliable way to judge the impact of an expected event. If the stockmarket knew it was coming (and they probably did), then the action was already priced into the stockmarket. For the same reason, you sometimes see the stockmarket rise after a company announces a yearly loss, because the stockmarket had expect the loss to be even worse, and had already priced the worse news in. Thue | talk19:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. If it was expected (which I claim it was) then there is no or little reaction. And the fact that it is expected tells us something about its noteworthiness. Of course, there are events that are expected which deserve posting, for example if they are the culmination of a long process and we haven't yet posted anything about such a process. But that isn't the case here. This is just a small symbolic part of the general fiscal crisis in the Eurozone. JimSukwutput01:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that it was expected by banking insiders tells us little about its noteworthiness; as you argue, unexpectedness is not really an ITN criteria. Using credit rating downgrades as reportable milestones makes sense; when else should we report a steady erosion of finances? I would say that credit ratings are a very central part of the sovereign debt crisis; the problem is unsustainable sovereign debt, and credit ratings are the way to measure them. Spain and Italy are the central countries in this crisis, because they are by far the biggest countries in trouble, and the hardest to bail out because of their size. So featuring their downgrades ITN especially makes sense. Thue | talk01:52, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(cough) Besides, many of us also saw the United States rating downgrade coming. That did not seem to get in the way of its ITN noteworthiness. - Tenebris 04:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
But these aren't really milestones. As I said, there are multiple credit rating agencies (3 major ones) and each one has more than 10 different possible ratings. If we post each downgrade for the major economies in crisis (Spain, Italy, Greece, and other peripheral nations in the Eurozone), that would make up half the entries on ITN. JimSukwutput05:05, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we shouldn't post downgrades from each of the three rating agencies, and we should mostly only post for the big, significant countries. Bit I would still like to post some of them. Since we didn't post Moody's downgrade, then perhaps we can post this one. Thue | talk20:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just, say, two or three more nominations after this, and then I fade back into the woodwork. I only aim here to suggest major story directions for what was looking increasingly to be a stagnant ITN section. A bit amazed that no one has nominated this story yet. - Tenebris 01:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.169 (talk)
Updated the template with the broader article, in part because I suspect both won't survive independently on English Wikipedia. - Tenebris 05:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment - two things - Please don't use a username you're not editing as, and please ensure a suitable article actually exists before you nominate stuff here. (I note you have linked to another since I typed this.) — Joseph Fox06:00, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Second point first, I did not understand that when I started. This is new to me, and you will notice I have been remedying. As to the first point, I don't have and will not have a Wikipedia account, for reasons you will be familiar with if you follow the main page talk page. This is the only user name I edit with. You will also see me on other article talk pages under the same name. New articles are, however, off limits to me. As a determined IP (but nevertheless not an anonymous IP), I can only correlate and improve, never create from scratch. - Tenebris 06:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
In fact, you can create from scratch - but you will be forced to use the articles for creation process. However, the sheer volume of your nominations to this page makes it a little strange to me that you would not create an account; it would certainly make backing up your nominations with articles (as is necessary for this section) a hell of a lot easier. — Joseph Fox07:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aw man, I just welcomed the user not realizing that it was an IP address. And the user actually exists (created back in 2006), so I didn't realize it was a different user. Can we manually replace the user name with the IP address so that people don't get confused? hbdragon88 (talk) 07:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to have caused confusion, Hbdragon88. Further confusion -- I too have been around Wikipedia for far too many years. (I consider it one of the Internet's most hopeful projects.) Yet further confusion -- my IP changes. (Ye Olde Dial-up, plus multiple different computers. At one point, I even overlapped with a banned user.) I do promise that if I comment on a talk page, it will always be by this name, followed by the five tildes which give time and date. I also read the relevant IP page -- but honestly, user talk pages are one of the things I don't like so much about Wikipedia.
Thank you for the information on how to create articles, Joseph Fox -- I may just take advantage of that one at some point! (But probably not soon. Currently, nearly all of my available Wiki time is spent cleaning up and expanding existing articles.) I placed my name into the template by way of accepting responsibility for the nomination, not for credit. The current volume here is simply due to my frustration at watching the ITN page stagnate for so many days, while so much is happening in the way of significant and notable news. I have never done this before, and I truly hope never to have to do this again! As to creating an account to back up a nomination -- that cuts right to the heart of why I remain a determined IP without an account. It is one of Wikipedia's principles to allow open editing in nearly all things. Given that principle, should not nominations be judged solely by content, not by whether or not the nominator has a Wikipedia account? - Tenebris 07:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Without willing to stretch this conversation out too far, I will admit I am of the opinion that those with accounts are generally more constructive and loyal to the website overall; I would wager that you, Tenebris, are among a very, very small percentage of constructive IPs on Wikipedia. The number of benefits that being a user gives you is, as you've been told, very long and most of them I believe you will find useful (for instance, receiving messages would be a hundred times easier on a fixed talk page, I'm sure, and the ability to track pages you're working on or interested in is a major plus) and, of course, the power to actually write articles is always a good one to have, especially if contributing to this page, one which often requires articles to be made from scratch. I won't lecture you any further; the work you're doing here is great, and I really, really hope that you elect to put these contributions under a handle in order to get the recognition they deserve. — Joseph Fox10:03, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
support for such reasons as ITNR, MINority topic ad precednce as we cant be POV in the interest of globalising. (eve though the first addition was a crap chpice)Lihaas (talk) 00:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Article about the wedding seems good, but I'm not sure if I like the word "commoner" in the blurb (not that I have any better, alternate suggestions either). SpencerT♦C01:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ready per ITN/R (note: I couldn't find this in the ITN/R list, could the nominator indicate where it is?). The article itself is clear and concise, which makes a nice change from most of the ITN/Rs we've seen lately. DeterenceTalk01:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article looks good, underrepresented area, I had heard about this young modernizing king before so maybe other reader will have too (and would be interested to hear of his marriage). Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I know our policy on pics is kinda dependent on what is available but I'm not wild about the pic only having the groom in it, given that the event was a wedding. I'd rather have a pic related to another blurb for now.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly agree with Johnsemlak regarding the picture. A wedding picture with just the groom seems inappropriate to the point of being disrespectful. DeterenceTalk18:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the word 'commoner' may be dropped. If we have a suitable pic with the couple together, we can put that in ... but to me even otherwise, the current pic is fine: the news is after all about the King getting married - if he had married some other chick, thats still news. If Jetsun Pema married some other dude, it would not make the news (on the assumption that said dude is not a head-of-state equivalent) ... but yes, if we have a better pic with the two, then that should be posted instead of this. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 19:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is not significant enough to me, and I live in the United States. I don't believe it's internationally significant, especially since the outbreak has now ended and there were no exports. Mamyles (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Agreed with Mamyles. 23 people after three months is hardly significant - consider the thousands succumbing to easily curable diseases in East Africa every day. It's not even the deadliest listeria outbreak in the U.S., and the U.S. is an extraordinarily safe country when it comes to food-borne illnesses. JimSukwutput
Support In the context of white-collar crime, this is a significant record. This story has enjoyed widespread media coverage. It is also rather noteworthy that "the longest sentence ever handed out for insider trading" is only 11 years. The article needs some work - there are only a couple of sentences about the conviction and the sentence. DeterenceTalk01:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Updated with a couple of extra sentences, including the other sentences in the case. - Tenebris 11:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.129 (talk)
I don't normally do this, but the global news has been much more intense than it would seem by the ITN section. So I will add a few stories, both from the anglosphere and around the world, let the consensus go as it will. Please forgive if I slip up on the template structure -- somewhat new at this. - Tenebris 19:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. (And for future reference -- where was it?) - Tenebris 20:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.239 (talk)
Oppose when local governments in the US enter receivership, they are run financially by a federal Judge, which is very rarely substantially different than how they were being run, except for some layoffs and extra work for those who remain. Dualus (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, just a single brief comment. As a simple civic bankruptcy, this is not an exceptional story. Symbolically, however, the fact that Harrisburg happens to be a United States state capital crosses a significant line. There won't be an equivalent bankruptcy moment until a world-class city or an entire state or country goes bankrupt, if one does at all. (I would say keep an eye on Greece, but WP:CRYSTAL.) - Tenebris 21:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.239 (talk)
How often does something like this occur? It didn't show up on the front page on Drudge (and before you berate me for using that as a news source, the primary reason I use it is as a litmus test on how sensational a news story is).--WaltCip (talk) 22:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
CommentChapter 9 has a partial list of municipal bankruptcies. I agree that Harrisburg being the capital of Pennsylvania makes this a much bigger deal, as most of the cities listed are not capitols. However, would we just update the Harrisburg page or create a separate Bankruptcy of Harrisburg article? "Bankruptcy of" articles are very uncommon; I only see two, that of Lehman Brothers and General Motorshbdragon88 (talk) 02:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Old man dies of old age" isn't exactly striking. Very limited interest subject, and something akin to the death of Al Davis earlier this week. That notable people occasionally die is not remarkable in and of itself. Resolute13:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support If you had to make a list of the ten most influential computer programmers Ritchie would surely be on that list. Although most sources credit Unix primarily to Thompson there is no doubt as to Ritchie's contribution to it and yes he was the main player for C. This is a figure who created what is still a maajor programming language. Newer languages deliberately copy much of C (C++, Java, PHP etc): if you include those Ritchie-influenced languages account for well over 90% of current software development. He was instrumental in building a research operating system that was the first to showcase many new ideas and is still a major player over 40 years after its first release. He is LILP listed, and all this more than meets the second death criteria for posting. As for the comments that computer science is a narrow, fringe field: I doubt it is as fringe as suggested, and in any case that is not a criteria. If it was we wouldn't post anyone except popstars, actors and politicians. Where was this argument when we posted Steve Jobs? In the long term Ritchie's contribution will doubtless be assessed as much greater. Crispmuncher (talk) 13:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Support. Per Crispmucher. Though the death was due to old age, while alive, he was one of the most notable and respected computer programmers. Lynch714:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support perhaps being in computer field i'm biased but C is basically the building block of computers as we know it so he is definitly one of the most notable people in his field of exptertise. He may not generate the amount of media frenzy that Steve Jobs did but that might be one of the reason he is better suited for ITN. -- Ashish-g5514:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - As mentioned above, C is the building blocks of modern computers. Every system, including Linux, Windows, and Mac, primarily uses C. While his death isn't surprising, it is notable enough to be mentioned. Mamyles (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. Contributing to the creation of C programming language, that marked a revolution in the computer science, is a very big deal. Probably not everyone has heard about him, but C with its upgrades is something scattered deeply in the other circles of knowledge.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Think on the answer from the viewpoint of a reader. Odds are that only a tiny minority will have any idea who he is, and this is a guy whose death will be front page news absolutely nowhere. Resolute15:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose someone above made an "apples to oranges" comparison to Al Davis above. But let's compare to Steve Jobs as both are "tech guys." Jobs' death caused a pretty big public reaction and was news everywhere. Ritchie's hasn't and isn't getting much coverage. Hot Stoptalk-contribs15:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as while a significant person to the tech field, dying of old age is not necessary newsworthy unless he was a much more significant public figure. --MASEM (t) 16:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see that myself. It is possibly a bit light on personal life but ultimately that is not of interest to most readers. The article is a good summary of what he is actually known for. Crispmuncher (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
Support A creator of the most widely used computer language of the last 50 years and Unix, widely used in may forms for decades. Far more worthy than Steve Jobs or Bill Gates (when he dies) Torqueing (talk) 16:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: the importance of an invention is not necessarily in proportion to biographical significance of the inventor. This is one of the cases where that lack of correlation means that the death of the individual is simply not a major news story. Kevin McE (talk) 16:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree he qualifies as a significant figure in the field, but the article is currently in bad shape, barely more than a stub nothing much about his death, and half the article sources are to an unencyclopedic "quotes" section. This article needs to gets fixed before posting in ITN. Secretaccount17:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Significant person, but as Kevin said "importance of an invention is not necessarily in proportion to biographical significance of the inventor." Neutralitytalk17:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support. Creator of the C language and co-creator of Unix, the lingua franca of computing. A computing pioneer, his influence is hard to overstate. -Halo (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Unix and C are seriously big deals in computing. Unix is the basis for the Mac, iPhone, Android as well as every Linux/Unix server in the business world (yes Linux isn't technically descended from Unix, but it uses the same ideas) - and C is one of the most influential programming languages in existence and it runs on almost every platform and other languages such as Java, C++ C# and Objective C - which, along with C, are used by a huge percentage of the worlds applications are descended from C.
With regards to Kevin's comment I thought ITN wasn't a breaking news service - but for those people who are fans of that idea I saw it posted on the BBC. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would not consider he second story on the Technology page, behind announcement if the date in 12 months time on which analogue TV broadcasting will finish in N Ireland, to be evidence of a major news story. Kevin McE (talk) 06:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As above, only if you want proof that it is lower news priority that the switch off date for Northern Ireland's analogue TV signal (24 October next year, fwiw) Kevin McE (talk) 06:41, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the whole point of ITN was to cover news stories that haven't made as many global headlines. That I'm sure was the argument trotted out (probably by the same people who opposed this) when Amanda Knox was released from jail and made the front page of every news source in the world and got over 1.5 million views as it has been with every high profile event in the past. There is no reason ITN can't post high profile events like Amanda Knox' release from jail or Jobs' death, but if people are going to argue against them using the argument that coverage doesn't matter to turn around and say its super important for something else is poor form. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment--people saying that Richie is more significant than Jobs need to take a step back I think. I'm not opposing on notability grounds but the notion that 'Jobs was posted, and this guy was more significant' doesn't work for me. Leaving out two key factors--Jobs' role in creating Pixar and the fact that he died just after the pinnacle of his career--Jobs was able to take all the bits and parts and made them into devices which influenced people's lives. He changed how people listen to music; he changed how people interface their computers, not to mention his impact on the animated film industry. His influence extends beyond the tech world into music, film, design, and people's lifestyles. I am not an apple fanboy--I've owned 6 mp3 players and not one Ipod; I've never owned a Mac or an Iphone. But I recognize the guy's influence. Again I'm not opposing on notability grounds; just saying that Jobs was more significant. I do oppose on article quality and update for the moment.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly that argument seem not to appreciate Ritchie's achievements and contributions. OS X is derived from a system Ritchie created. The firmware of all Apple products are written in a language created by Ritchie or derived from it, as is Windows, MS Office etc. Jobs by his very nature was more high profile but at the end of the day his contribution was telling engineers what to make, and marketroids how to sell what had been made: his technical contributions were nil. Ritchie did not become a household name but that is not reason to underestimate his contribution: from a purely technical standpoint his contributions to Apple's own products was far greater than Jobs's ever was despite never having worked there. Quantumsilverfish (talk) 02:31, 15 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
The article is not updated. The update is entirely unnotable specifics of his death, and a ridiculous line His death, which came a week after the death of Steve Jobs, did not receive as much media coverage. The update needs to contain substantial information beyond what the blurb would contain. If there's nothing to add, then perhaps it shouldn't be posted. I agree that there is a rough consensus here that he's notable enough but I recommend the 'ready' tag be removed until there's a suitable update.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Token Oppose I know this is unlikely to change anything, but this discussion here shows how out of touch Wikipedians are. Yeah, maybe in the computer-saavy, nerdy bubble in which Wikipedia and Wikipedians reside, this guy and his innovations were earth-shattering, but the vast majority of people don't even know what C is, let alone who this guy is. C may be an important advancement in computer science, but Dennis Richie is not particularly notable on his own; after all, look at the size and nature of his article. I feel so strongly in this regard that I refuse to put this up on ITN myself. -- tariqabjotu20:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Article:Black Death (talk·history·tag) Blurb: Scientists reconstruct the DNA of the germ that caused the Black Death in the 14th century. (Post) News source(s):BBC Credits:
Interesting, but is this all that novel for non-forensic biology? Saying "Black Death" will get you a nice headline, but I'm wondering if there will be any impact to this for future studies. NW(Talk)04:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The research appears to have led to some notable conclusions--that the germ is the same as that that causes the plague today, and that agent is distinct from that of previous outbreaks of the plague.--Johnsemlak (talk) 08:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Points of notability -
1) That it *is* the same virus. That was a matter of considerable debate, given how different many of the symptoms were. (The Black Death article had previously made some note of this.)
2) The differences between the current versions and the "Black Death" versions open major research doors into what makes a virus particularly virulent, which is relevant across a wide, wide range of research. Those concerned with future influenza pandemics have a particular interest.
3) This finding also opens up research directions into why the Black Death ended at all (ie. co-interactions/evolutionary arms race with human immune systems) -- highly relevant wrt ebolas and such, especially given modern speeds of transportation/transmission.
I stand appropriately corrected. Blame the lack of sleep. - Tenebris 08:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.129 (talk)
Marking ready. Note that the highlighted DNA part of the article could/should be longer, as the source has extensive information. Mamyles (talk) 13:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. interesting autopsy of one of the worst serial killers in history. to answer NW 's query I dont think this will impact the future treatment of plague as that is a non issue in the era of modern antibiotics. --Wikireader41 (talk) 14:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ready to post, however, does anyone feel there should be more words linked in the blurb? I'd also prefer a slightly longer update in the article, the 2011 update has just one sentence. --Tone14:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised. Scientific claims require numerous stages of verification. As long as we didn't post last year's report on ITN, I don't see a problem with posting this one. JimSukwutput15:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not any kind of expert on this, but the recent study is the first one to have actually sequenced the genome of the bacterium responsible. The one last year just sequenced some markers which show that it was definitely Y. pestis which caused the Black Death. Hut 8.521:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: The collusion has been acknowledged for some time, but this is a big development in a slow-burning story. --FormerIP (talk) 12:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I might be missing it, but I see nothing about this in Finucane's article. The most is that yesterday, they got angry with Cameron for not doing more. --Golbez (talk) 16:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article isn't updated to reflect it, but Cameron and the NI Secretary Pattison both issued apologies, which is something the previous Government declined to do - see the newslinks posted above. The family's unhappiness with the proposed review is another aspect to the story, but it is not the one I'm proposing here. --FormerIP (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The difficulty is that the reliable sources are almost exclusively focused on the government's "change of mind" to not hold a new enquiry, rather than the apology: [8], [9], [10]. Focusing on the apology in ITN runs the risk of distorting what our reliable sources say is the newsworthy part of this, and thus appearing to be biased in favour of the UK Government. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I take that point, but "family rejects UK government proposals" could equally be seen as biased against the UK government. Does what you're saying add up to "oppose", "neutral" or "change blurb"? --FormerIP (talk) 20:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As a loose, broad suggestion, I would propose that apologies -- even for major inquiries -- be entirely avoided in ITN unless they have global and future implications. There are simply too many of them otherwise. (I would propose the same for all national election results and fallen governments [see below], but that might provoke screaming.) - Tenebris 09:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Weak oppose. I don't see this being significant in the long-run, even in Syria. It might have been a notable event in other times, but there's a lot of stuff going on in Syria right now, and this is only a small part of it. JimSukwutput20:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Indictments are cheap, even in the US of A. Not even sure if its newsworthy if the guy gets convicted, but that's a ways off, if ever. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 03:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious oppose. I dont actually see how this is newsworthy. The USA being a very famous country for its special government and government-related secrets and does have some eyes on it. (especially from the east) Indictments (i guess) are quite common in the USA (There have been quite a lot of movies like that. haha!) --Anirudh Emani (talk) 10:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These last two comments are pure silliness, and simply uninformed. Indictments for espionage are not "common." It is extremely rare that someone is charged with espionage for a foreign power. (I'm not sure how many people have been charged with spying for Syria in the U.S. - perhaps a handful in the past few decades, no more). And the story relates to many ongoing international events and news themes: 2011 Syrian uprising; human rights in Syria; Syria-United States relations; Arab Spring, and espionage. Of course this is newsworthy; that's why the world press has covered this extensively.
It's plausible to argue that this isn't in the "top five most important stories." I'm fine with that. But don't claim that it's "not newsworthy," because that's obviously wrong and belied by the reporting on it in publications across the world. Neutralitytalk17:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They are not uninformed - indeed, it's your comment that reads like a regurgitation of what the US govt would have liked to brainwash all to believe... A little education, neut: Indictments in the US are handed down by grand juries at the behest of prosecutors acting behind closed doors with a grand jury sworn to secrecy. Only the most minimal proof is required, which is usually presented by the investigating officers and may include hearsay, conjecture, opinion, and any sort of imaginings of the officer. The defendant is usually unaware of the proceedings and certainly has no access to the proceedings or to have a lawyer present, to call witnesses, to present evidence of any kind whatsoever, to cross-examine or even to address the grand jury; certainly nothing like a conviction in open court with a jury of one's peers. If you think indictments are so big, just remember the ex-IMF chief whose US indictment was tossed out within a short time, once some of the evidence saw the light of day. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear you want to argue about politics. I'm not interested. None of what you said has any bearing on what ITN is about. You might want to review Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (i.e., a forum).
Oppose Neutrality, while you are correct in pointing out that Wikipedia is "not a forum", what Carlossuarez46 is saying is perfectly correct: federal indictments are handed out like free candy at Willy Wonka's with scant regard to the principles of natural justice. Let's wait until some actual evidence is brought to light before we run this guy's name through the media gauntlet. DeterenceTalk01:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Espionage indictments don't come every day. They are actually exceedingly rare. And everything we're saying, and that's in the article, has been reported in many thousands of news articles. We're not making any conclusions and we're using terms like allegedly to signify that these are preliminary claims. That's irrelevant to the actual question we should be addressing, which is "are these highly newsworthy allegations?" And clearly, based on the news coverage and how this article fits into the larger picture (2011 Syrian uprising, Arab Spring), they are. As I mentioned above, we've run notable arrests/criminal charges before, including Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the Russian spy ring, on ITN! Look, a reasonable case can be made that this isn't in the "top two or three" most significant stories right now, although clearly I think it's in the top 10 or so. (I think this is Jim Sukwutput's position). But I can't see how "running this guy's name through the media gauntlet" should play into our decision. The news is already out there and I think the only three things we should be considering are (1) the quality of our article (good); (2) the newsworthiness of the story (evident by the significant global press coverage) and (3) how does it fit in in terms of ITN topic balance (I think pretty well, as it's an international story, is interesting, fits in with ongoing themes/events). Neutralitytalk04:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, we posted the DSK indictment despite a lack of consensus then and now whether we should have done. Making future mistakes because we made earlier is part of learning; apparently some people never learn. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Cabinet of Israel approves a prisoner swap deal with Hamas for the release of the Israeli Army soldier Gilad Shalit, who had been held in captivity for five years. In exchange, Israel agrees to release a thousand Palestinian prisoners held in Israel, among them hundreds of prisoners serving multiple life sentences for planning and perpetrating murderous attacks against Israeli civilians.(Xinhuanet)(Ynet)
Comment. As far as I understand, the Slovak government has lost a confidence vote, which it will probably win when re-tabled tomorrow. If things don't pan out like that, then we may have an ITN-worthy news story. --FormerIP (talk) 00:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
According to RS sources support for the motion depends on the call for a new election which would mean it falls. But im all for waiting till tomorrow then.Lihaas (talk) 00:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if the best idea is to highlight the article about last year's election. I'd prefer updating the PM's article or the one about the cabinet, if there's one. Otherwise, support. --Tone07:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support The untimely fall of a European government as a direct result of the current European sovereign debt crisis has got to be notable. But, the section in the article needs some work. For instance, the first sentence says "parliament voted to approve the expansion of the European Financial Stability Fund", but, I think it was supposed to say "parliament voted against the expansion of the European Financial Stability Fund". DeterenceTalk08:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Fall of a government based on a refuse of a fund related to the Eurozone is a very big deal, that marks the dependence of the politics in the European Union with the current financial situation.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. This also means that it'll be a news if the government falls tomorrow. Until then it's only a strong precedence caused by the financial instability. The update on the page about the most recent parliamentary election in the country should also be fixed, changing the header that already states the 'fall'.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like the bailout is expected to pass anyway (judging from the stock market reactions today). The government before the no confidence motion was made up of a coalition of centre-right parties, while there is a single large centre-left party in opposition. It appears that some of the more fiscally right-wing parties in the government allied with the opposition to abstain from the motion, leading to the government's fall, but the centre-left party actually supports the bailout in principle. What's most likely to happen is a compromise between the moderate centre-right and the centre-left, resulting in a new "grand coalition". JimSukwutput20:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Soapboxing? Do you even understand what that term means? Did I ever make a statement regarding my political stance or opinion? Every statement I made was factual analysis based on actual news reports; I was merely summing things up and providing a much-needed update on the situation. Read a couple of news articles (for once) if you don't believe me.
I'm not interested in getting into a debate over your previous misconduct on ITN. It suffices to say that the several warnings you have received from admins should have made you modify your behavior and I am disappointed that you still do not recognize your disruptive behavior in the past. But that is frankly none of my business, and certainly irrelevant to this nomination. If you wish to talk about previous "accusations", please take it to my talk page. JimSukwutput00:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Per the BBC source above the bailout measure will pass BUT per the caveat i said above. Reading the article it says snap elections have been called and due in March. so the govt HAS FALLED. "In return for his support, Ms Radicova's coalition agreed to hold snap elections on 10 March, one of her ministers, Mikulas Dzurinda, confirmed." Think its ready for posting then...Lihaas (talk) 01:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No!!! Early elections is not the same as a government falling. I feel like my IQ has gone down even having to post this message! --FormerIP (talk) 01:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
COULDABEEN what? it is. Not a regular election as failed a on confidence vote, thats fallen
There is no "GRAND COALITION" the agreement stipulates dissolution following debate aNd passing off the bill (expected probs tomorrow)Lihaas (talk) 02:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Couldabeen the fall of a government, couldabeen the blocking of the Euro bailout. Either of those things would have been ITN worthy. Early elections in Slovakia is not. --FormerIP (talk) 02:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Its not a coulabeen fall because parliament will be dissolved. it WILL thats agreed, ot speculatio. there is o new govt forming and its an early election FALLENLihaas (talk) 02:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A new election being called as a result of the incumbent government failing a confidence vote in the House = the government has fallen. DeterenceTalk03:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unsuccessful votes of no confidence are routine and will happen numerous times in each Democratically-elected governments' term. But, successful votes of no confidence are rare and noteworthy. DeterenceTalk05:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto, precedence doe indicate the publishing of failure of govt a nd new elections. we did it for portuagal some 6 mths ago.Lihaas (talk) 08:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And Slovenia 3 weeks ago. But the article needs a better update and we have to decide what to say about the EFSF. --Tone08:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, okay then. And I didn't say this was an unsuccessufl vote of no confidence. This was an unsuccessful vote of confidence. It was a motion brought by the government to assess its parliamentary support with the intention showcasing strength (like the one that just happened in Italy), not a motion brought by the opposition with the intention of bringing down the government. Therequiembellishere (talk) 15:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Israel and Palestinian militants has agreed to a prisoner swap which will see Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit released and a uncertain number of Palestinian prisoners. BabbaQ (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
obvious support IF an when it happens. could create a new article for it too. Or a collated article of hostage swaps between the two with sections for each. (what about the hostage swaps for bodies (boths sides))?Lihaas (talk) 00:59, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - did we do updates on the release of the hikers held in Iran, freed for $1 M? Yes, the story has human interest, but it's not big news outside of the people involved. I also think it unfortunate that many of the radio commentators have used the proposed trade to opine that the parties have "set an exchange rate" between Arabs and Israelis, and that all tit-for-tats now need 1000 to one; whether it's prisoner releases or retaliations, or whatever. If that becomes the norm, this would be newsy, but methinks that radio show hosts (thankfully) don't control such behavior. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 03:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a gross underestimate of what the situation is. Israel has a used Shilat as a reason for waging conflict and some of those 1,207 Palestinian prisoners aren't just political--they're legitimate terrorists. The fact that this is Hamas's great victory at home so soon after Fatah's great victory abroad is no coincidence and when we add that this shows Egypt post-Mubarak is still able to play a role as regional mediator adds up to a very big, very important issue. The results may not be obviously groundshaking, but they are far-reaching. Having said that, support only if it actually happens. Therequiembellishere (talk) 04:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose At this stage, the reports are woefully short on verifiable details and the allegations are little more than vaguely-worded clichés. We'll need a little bit more than yet another daily-dose of anti-Iranian rhetoric from the White House before this deserves a place in ITN. DeterenceTalk20:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a major event and if the intelligence collected is accurate, this could have been a major catastrophe. I have taken the liberty of creating an article, so please, add what is needed. DarthBottotalk•cont22:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Just the fact that the US is accusing the Iranian government of trying to attack Saudi embassador is notable enough in itself. If it happens to be true, then that is just icing on the cake :). But the article need a good deal more "according to" hedging given that the US is not the most unbiased source (remember weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!). Thue | talk22:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support because this is a big news story, but there should be very clear hedging not only in the article but also in the ITN blurb. --FormerIP (talk) 22:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Also, the article is in dire shape. I did a preliminary pass, but it needs the attention of someone who has far more time than I. NW(Talk)00:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should we post a blurb without a link to the new article in the short term so people looking for information on the Quds Force or the Saudi ambassador will have a place to go? Then we can change the blurb once the new article is ready. I think this would be a good use of ITN because this thing is all over the news and a lot of people will be coming to Wikipedia for background information on Iran and terrorism. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Mentioning "Iran-backed attack" in the blurb is highly controversial, and I therefore suggest an immediate change. The background of the attack is only speculation with no firm proves, and it couldn't be classified a news.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
AGREE TO PULL/REWORD the article is utter rot! (ad there are much better current articles not posted despite support thas stronger)Lihaas (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that "Iranian-backed" should be removed. It is indeed speculation and the blurb is perfectly good without it. Also the bit about embassies - according to the BBC, this is supposed to have been a "first-draft" plan before the idea of targeting the ambassador emerged. --FormerIP (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to be the voice of dissent here, but the US government did in fact state that it was Iranian backed, and the fact that they stated this is what makes it notable in my opinion. I say leave it the way it is...it's not saying it was Iranian backed, it's saying the US government said it was. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)18:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Get what you're saying, but the blurb isn't clear about that and think it would be difficult to make it clear without occupying the whole of the ITN box. --FormerIP (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked as suggested, though I have my reservations as to whether it was necessary or not. The blurb is way too long now though, and really was even before this. NW(Talk)18:18, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seems better, but also might lead to a POV. Frankly, we have a blurb with United States blaming Iran for plotting terrorist attack. On the other hand, a section of the key article in the blurb is tagged with POV template. I doubt many of our readers would like to alight on another dispute, rather than read the truth.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pulled for the time being. A disputed tag at the top of the article is not appropriate for main page. When this is fixed, we can put it back. --Tone21:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Repost "allegedly"? "POV"? What is the POV? That this plot was a CIA hoax? Come on folks. This act of war is notable and of interest to our readers and not even Ahmedinejad is denying it. μηδείς (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
His government, including aides to Ahmadinejad, have denied that there was any such plot. (How much credibility those denials have is a different matter, but they certainly aren't admitting to the plot.) Dragons flight (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose reposting. How low have our standards fallen when sentences like this are put on the main page to be read by millions? "This has been considered an attempted terrorist plot, or perhaps by some, such as Senator Carl Levin, even an act of war, if indeed it was sponsored by the Iranian government as some have claimed it was."JimSukwutput00:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The tags appear to have been resolved NPOV wise, and if no one objects I will repost this in 20 minutes. In the meantime I will attempt to fix that sentence mentioned by Jim. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)00:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The tag was not resolved; it was removed arbitrarily by a user, put back on, and removed again. Chances are it's likely to be put on again (no comment on whether it is justified). The horribly written sentence wasn't my only objection either - the article right now is under several edit conflicts with many users putting up uncited or unverifiable (OR) statements, which is common for hot topics like this. I do not understand why we cannot wait until we have a well-cited, well-written article with verifiable details before posting this. We're not responsible for breaking news. JimSukwutput00:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Taking a look at the page history, I see your concerns about page stability, and that's enough to convince me to not repost at the moment. I'm just somewhat concerned that while we wait for it to become stable/"better" it will go stale, as well as how good we should consider "good enough"...it's not like it will be a GA within the time we could post it on ITN or anything. I will say though that for a current event article it seems to be fine otherwise (well cited, reasonably good prose, not wanting for updates, etc). Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)00:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not that concerned about it going stale. My opinion is that if we cannot have a well-cited, neutral article going on the main page, then it's better for it not to go on the main page at all. The article has little information, and what little it has is mostly speculative and original research, which the author of the article has managed to retain through revert warring against half a dozen other users.JimSukwutput00:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm perfectly inclined to wait and see how it goes...the reposting was mostly a suggestion. I was concerned by the high amount of reverting on that page though, so I'm going to keep an eye on that. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)00:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was just about to waltz over and leave a "let's all just calm down here..." message but it appears he has been blocked. Hopefully others will clean up the article now and it'll get in shape for posting. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)00:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
May I point out that if you post every foiled plot on ITN, even limiting it to potentially significant actions (WP:CRYSTAL), you will have thousands of ITN blurbs each year? Nor has the number really risen -- quite steady for years, decades, possibly even centuries. (Compared to some histories, we live in very stable times.) These things used to go below the viewer radar. Now a very big deal is made of each, but only when they fit a particular template. (Do I really have to say what that template looks like?) - Tenebris 09:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.77 (talk)
For openly available (non-classified) material, try starting with this FBI report for 2002-2005. Although they include arsons and such, note the number of domestic bombings and prevented bombings you never heard about on the news. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005 - Tenebris 19:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.239 (talk)
Looking at the list at the bottom, I don't see many state-sponsored attacks at all. I supported this blurb above because of the influence on interstate relations. Thue | talk21:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. We have already gone from "any" to (not) "many". And of course, the way this particular foiled plot has been presented in the media and on the world stage has nothing whatsoever to do with next year being a major domestic election year. - Tenebris 21:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.239 (talk)
The "not many" was just because I was too lazy to actually read the whole list. Of the part I read, I couldn't find any. Can you point to any. Not to mention that that list covers 25 years, so even if they are "not many", they can still be called rare enough to post ITN. Thue | talk22:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Atilla Altıkat won't even be on that list. The Justice Commandos Against Armenian Genocide had a habit of targetting diplomatic personnel around the world (including inside the United States), successfully more often than not. You could consider the JCAG the equivalent of Ireland's IRA, even to the point of having a simultaneous political wing (Armenian Revolutionary Federation). An unsuccessful assassination plot against Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (you might know him better as the former Shah of Iran) was attempted by agents of the Soviet Union -- about as state-sponsored as it gets. Some truly interesting news has just emerged about just who was behind the assassination of Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana, which led directly to the deaths of some million people. (Debating whether it is solid enough yet to nominate for ITN above.) Those are just some of the most high profile state-linked assassination attempts within the past three decades. ... And we won't even go into just how many documented state-sponsored attempts there were to assassinate Fidel Castro. (Or don't those count?) - Tenebris 02:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Although, interestingly, even though a few of them overlapped the existence of ITN, they were never once seen as notable enough even to mention here. The advocates of this one, on the other hand, are so determined to have it up that I am starting to get dizzy from the post-pull-post-pull. Oh, how I wish we could occasionally raise our eyes from partisan politics and close our ears to pundits! (Btw in his speech about the non-incident, Obama carefully did not say that it was state-sponsored.) - Tenebris 10:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.129 (talk)
Comment In removing reference to alleged state-sponsored terrorism, the significance of this event is not represented in the blurb. This isn't significant simply because an attack was foiled, but that the United States accuses Iran. Perhaps the blurb could be reposted as something like "The United States accuses Iran of supporting a foiled plot to attack the Saudi Embassy in Washington", which would maintain neutral POV while justifying significance. This is a sweeping world event that should not be ignored by ITN. Mamyles (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actions speak more than words. Statements of condemnation are issued all the time by ambassadors of countries. They're generally inconsequential until a formal declaration of war actually occurs.--WaltCip (talk) 17:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This event cannot be generalized with other condemnations - it has already resulted in sanctions by the United States, and Saudi Arabia is considering severing diplomatic ties. If war is declared that would warrant another, separate ITN blurb. Mamyles (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And again - more sanctions? Really? Do you have any idea how many U.S. sanctions against Iran already existed before? The sum total of the new sanctions is that United States citizens are prohibitted from engaging in transactions with the specific five people who have been designated as involved in the plot. In addition, their assets are frozen. That is it! (To be exact, it builds upon the pre-existing Executive Order 13224, not anything new.) As to Saudi Arabia cutting off diplomatic ties - note that it has not actually done so. - Tenebris 10:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.129 (talk)
I can't see a clear consensus for re-posting here. Even if the article is in better shape, we didn't agree to post the blurb with almost same wording. The deny of the plot is also part of the story, and should be included in the blurb to prevent the NPOV violation.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:13, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the reposting. The phrasing of that blurb makes it clear that the support is alleged, which is neutral POV. Details on the incident are in the article - a blurb can only be so long. Mamyles (talk) 12:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I remember commenting on this in August. Some very analytical, incisive, constructive and relevant comments. That apart Support, its an ex-PM getting convicted and jailed. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 11:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't think there is any need to justify why this should be posted. One of the world's most powerful woman (according to Times) convicted of a crime close to corruption is clearly significant, she isn't just another minister or adviser, she was the leader of a major European country. YuMaNuMa (talk) 12:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In fact it is a kind of ethnic Russian/Ukrainian hairstyle, which might just have been borrowed to Star Trek like kokoshnik for Star Wars. And Tymoshenko's plait is a popular source for jokes in Russia/Ukraine. The most recent one is that now a classic riddle "What is a girl in jail, her plait outside free?" (Сидит девица в темнице, а коса на улице?) answers not only carrot :) GreyHoodTalk16:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is just nit-picking but I agree with Greyhood. The former picture is a much more interesting photo. Notwithstanding the blase feel of the current one but the microphone and finger aren't "unusual". It's a picture of Tyomoshenko reacting at the trial. That makes it's already eye-catching light, angle and posture even more interesting. And for journalistic purposes, it fits directly with the blurb. Kind of like this beauty. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Time to sticky again. Libya finishing, Yemen prominence with Karman and Saleh talk of stepping down, Saudi stepping up, Bahrain continous, Syria ongoing, Egypt hotting up and Tunisia violence contiues (with elections approaching) Lihaas (talk) 03:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We've posted maybe two Arab Spring-related stories in the past month; a sticky just isn't needed. If we're overwhelmed by these stories like we have been in the past, we can then consider it. Swarm03:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose What significant new events are there that justify a sticky? The point in using stickies is so that we don't have a constant stream of normal ITN blurbs on the same topic. Nothing on this topic has even been nominated recently. Modest Geniustalk15:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh ... what you really mean is that fifty-odd people being killed a day in various Arab Spring-related protests is no longer United States front page news, now that the primaries are slowly gearing up. The stories are still most definitely there, and have been every single day. If you want to find them, just clear your cookies and cache (Google algorithms like to show you only the kinds of things you normally look for), then go to Google News and type in your choice of Syria, Tunesia, Egypt (very tense situation there re Israeli-Egypt treaty, one of only two Israel has with the Arabic world), or Yemen. For the others, you have to search a little more, but they are there. - Tenebris 19:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
A "sticky" isn't a measure of how important we judge something to be. As Modest Genius said, it's just so that we don't have to constantly posting new blurbs on the same topic (which is not currently an issue). With so many things apparently happening, I would urge Lihaas (and you) to nominate Arab Spring-related events individually for consideration. After all, they certainly won't get posted if nobody nominates them in the first place. Regards, Swarm19:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
References
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In the news toolbox
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![[21]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yulia_Tymoshenko,_2010.JPG){kind=link}