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December 14

Which one was the Kanji name for Eda no Genzō--江田源蔵or江田源三?

Or are these interchangeable names or names of two different people? I found both names in Utagawa Kuniyoshi's artworks:[1][2]--RTVFSD (talk) 00:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

江田源蔵 reads Eda Genzō.--Jondel (talk) 06:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Both of the names do, from what I got from a quick Google search through Japanese Internets. And both names pop up at the same general time period (12. century, in connection with the clash between clans Taira and Minamoto), so that's probably why the OP is asking. I can't be of more help, though. Sorry. 164.71.1.221 (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

江田源三 also reads Eda Genzō. 源三 is the kanji used in The Tale of the Heike and Gikeiki. I think they are interchangeable names. Oda Mari (talk) 15:52, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

December 15

Deponent verbs

Are deponent verbs only found in Indo-European languages? Between that article and a little guesswork it kind of looks like they're a fluke of PIE development, but I'm wondering if that's the case or if they show up in other families as well. I.e. it doesn't seem likely that an agglutinative language would have grammatically passive, semantically active verbs, a passivizing affix - I'd think - would just drop, instead of having to add a whole mess of non-(medio)passive conjugations like in PIE. Lsfreak (talk) 06:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not the most polished paper, but you might be interested in reading "Deponency: definitions and morphological typology to accompany the online Surrey Deponency Databases". Perhaps look at the entries of the Database for Finnish, Japanese, and Hebrew too: [3], [4] & [5]. And maybe you can find other interesting entries in there. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 08:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

In Hebrew there are deponents formed from the Niph'al stem (usually the passive of the Qal stem), and "deponents" (if you want to call them that) from the Hitpa`el stem (usually reflexive or reciprocal or subject-affecting intransitive verbs), but no deponents from the other two passive stems (the Pu'al and the Hoph'al, the passives of the Pi'el and Hiph'il respectively), as far as I'm aware... AnonMoos (talk) 17:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The "O'" in names

I've seen many names such as: Mike O'Hara, Johnson O'Keefe... or even Jack-O'-Lantern. So what does the "O'" in those names mean? Thank for your help(s).

MatthewMiles127 (talk) 11:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

See Irish_names#Epithets. --Soman (talk) 11:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Wrong section. See Irish names#Surnames and prefixes. --ColinFine (talk) 11:56, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I would guess that the use as a common name prefix does not come directly from the "grandson" meaning, but rather from the use of the plural form Uí + X to mean "descendants of X", which was then used as a kind of clan name (e.g. Uí Néill). The singular Ua/O would have been formed from the plural clan name, rather than directly as "Grandson of X"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:21, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

In northern English dialect, the O' just means "of", and names were sometimes constructed in this way just meaning "son of". This is now rare here. Will-o'-the-wisp, Jack-O'-Lantern, Jack o' Lent and Tom o' Bedlam derive from this English usage, but I agree that modern surname derivation is almost always from the Irish. Dbfirs 17:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) But in Jack-o'-lantern, the o' is short for "of". It's commonly found in the Lowland Scots language but also as a way of writing other dialects. Well known examples are John o' Groats, Tam o' Shanter, Cock o' the North and Will-o'-the-wisp. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Forget not the Heavenly Coffee, Chock full o'Nuts. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

December 16

audio

Can you record the pronunciation of the word "cà rốt" in Vietnamese please ? Fête (talk) 02:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

volume

Can you turn up the volume of the file File:Fr-Normandie-Marseille.ogg and File:Zh-ruǎn-alt.ogg please ? Because I can't do it in my computer. Fête (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Es:grupera

What can "grupera" mean in Spanish? It occurred in a phrase in XEAN-AM, which I loosely translated; the sentence talked about the station broadcasting a "programación variada de música pop, grupera, y noticias". Google Translate renders it as "pop music, banda and News", which doesn't make much sense, and putting just "grupera" into Translate gets a response of "pillion". If you know the answer, please just edit the article; I've commented out "grupera" because I don't want to remove it and because I don't want to include a Spanish term in English text. Nyttend (talk) 03:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I am surprised you didn't try google, the first hit you get is our article grupera. μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I went to es:grupera and got nothing; I didn't even bother looking here, because I figured that es:wp would cover anything that we would. Thanks for the pointer. Nyttend (talk) 05:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The es version is called Género grupero. In an ideal world, es:grupera would redirect there. Things appear not to be ideal (but that's OR and can safely be ignored). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I've asked at the Spanish help desk for advice on whether this would be a good redirect, but it was painful — I took two classes over the summer on reading Spanish, but composition wasn't part of the course, so it took me five minutes to write three sentences :-) Nyttend (talk) 05:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Courage, mon brave! All great writers struggle over their words. And that's just in their native language. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Bromyard

I read in this entry : « Bromyard was the site of an internment camp, where the Irish nationalist future Lord Mayor of Cork and hunger striker Terence MacSwiney were both interned and married.» What about married in this sentence ? Dhatier (talk) 13:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure that they made a happy couple! Alansplodge (talk) 14:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be saying they were married to each other, but I suspect they really mean they each married others. StuRat (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

No, they were the same person. All things considered, it's rather a poor sentence that needs improvement (and, I notice, a reference for the information). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Cucumber Mike, you've got the point. Dhatier (talk) 21:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

That's very funny. Alansplodge (talk) 23:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

If they were the same person, the verb were should be was. Or am I missing a joke? μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

"Rather a poor sentence" (Cucumber Mike's observation above) covers a multitude of sins. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:18, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Is Carne related to Karma?

--Inspector (talk) 13:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

If you mean "as in Chili con carne", then the answer is no, according to AHD 3d edition -- karma comes from an IE root kʷer- "to make", while the Latin carn- stem comes from an IE root sker- or ker- (with s mobile) originally meaning "to cut". AnonMoos (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

(ec) The word karma comes from the PIE root *kwer-, "to shape, make, give form". The word carne in the sense of flesh comes from the root *(s)ker-, "to cut". You should see if you can borrow or purchase Calvert Watkins's etymological dictionary. Here's a link to a searchable edition of it at Amazon. μηδείς (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

From Puhvel, J., Hittite Etymological Dictionary, vol. 4, Words Beginning with K (De Gruyter, 1997), p. 216:

"The overall similarity of *k^wer- [...] to *(s)ker led to Sturtevant's postulation [...]that IE *ker(s)- [sic] is but a delabialized variant of the *k^wer- preserved in Anatolian, brought on by dissimilatory loss of initial labiovelarity in certain extended derivatives with labial [...] But the very fact that Hittite preserves kuer-, kuers-, iskar-, kars-, and kart- is strong contraindication and underlines the discreteness of *k^wer- 'carve, crop' and *(s)ker- 'clip' in Indo-European.

For Sturtevant's view, Puhvel cites: [6] and his Comparative Grammar of the Hittite Language (1933), pp. 119-120 and the revised edition of that (1953), pp. 46 & 56. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 02:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The Netherlands are or is?

"The Netherlands are a country of beautiful churches." OR "The Netherlands is a country of beautiful churches."

Thank you. CBHA (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Have you checked the usage in our article? And I thought the churches there were rather plain. μηδείς (talk) 18:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Our article uses "is". As for the beauty of the churches, given the context the author of the quote is likely to have erred on the side of sentiment over accuracy.

They go on to say that the people are "very religious". I wonder if this is true.

CBHA (talk) 19:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The Dutch aren't particularly religious. About 50-60% identifies with a religion, but many of these are non-practicing. There are some impressive churches, mainly in the south, because Roman Catholicism is larger there. Protestant churches are quite plain, as μηδείς pointed out, mostly because luxury and splendour are frowned upon in the reformed/calvinist tradition, which was historically dominant in the Netherlands. - Lindert (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

There are some strongly-conservative Calvinists, such as the supporters of the Reformed Political Party, but the majority of the population of the Netherlands do not seem to be particularly devout. Pope John Paul II's 1985 trip to the Netherlands, made after he uncompromisingly articulated some positions which the majority of the people there did not agree with, turned out to be a semi-fiasco, with protests and much general derision[7]... --- AnonMoos (talk) 23:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

When "on the fence", you can look at the rest of the sentence. Since the singular "country" is used, then the singular form "is" should be used. However, you could have said "The Netherlands are many lands combined into one nation.", then the plural "lands" goes with the plural "are". StuRat (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that last bit holds water, Stu. :) Australia, Canada, Russia and other countries were created from "many lands", but we'd never say "Australia are many lands combined into one nation". The verb would still be "is", agreeing with "Australia", not with "many lands". I believe "The Netherlands", despite appearances, is implicitly singular. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:04, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I said "when on the fence". The Australia case is already clear. The US is another which could go either way, depending on the rest of the sentence: "The United States are states of varying sizes..." or "The United States is a nation...". StuRat (talk) 01:18, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, not convinced. How does this sound to you: Australia is many lands combined into one nation. The United States are also many lands combined into one nation? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The only part that sounds wrong to me is the Aussie part. My fix: "Australia consists of many lands...". StuRat (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

You might also say that 'The Netherlands' it is short for 'Kingdom of the Netherlands', although this would technically include overseas territories. The Dutch themselves just use the singular 'Nederland' (i.e. Netherland), in the same vein as 'England' or 'Finland'. - Lindert (talk) 20:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd say "Holland is a country of beautiful churches." No argument then. HiLo48 (talk) 00:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd say you're showing your age, HiLo. Holland "is a region in the western part of the Netherlands. The term Holland is also frequently used as a pars pro toto to refer to the whole of the Netherlands. This usage is generally accepted but disliked by part of the Dutch population, especially in the other parts of the Netherlands." -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:14, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

So, the Netherlands have regions. Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, see Provinces of the Netherlands. Alansplodge (talk) 03:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I see, the Netherlands has regions. ;) Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

...so the Nether regions ? StuRat (talk) 03:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Holland is also part of East Anglia, in England. ;)--TammyMoet (talk) 10:24, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

There are quite large parts of Holland in England, in fact. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

For comparison purposes: our articles say Netherlands is, Phillipines is, Marshall Islands is, Canary Islands is, but United States Virgin Islands are. British Virgin Islands can't decide, using both is and were. The Solomon Islands form, covers and is. (Note however that in the case of islands an author could be using ...Islands is in referring to the country but ...Islands are in referring to them as a bunch of islands.) Duoduoduo (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The politics of these places are probably very complicated, as is the economics. Duoduoduo (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Dash and percent

Which one of the two options is typographically correct?

• 10–20%
• 10%–20%

There was no information on that neither in Percent sign, nor in Dash. --Leyo 19:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia's own style (MOS:PERCENT, fifth bullet point) calls for the use of the first option. Other folks may do things differently. Deor (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, both are correct. StuRat (talk) 19:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Is there a (non-Wikipedia) reference for that? --Leyo 19:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I would say it depends on context. Both 10 and 10% are quantities and mean different things. Consider "They have 200 students, and we believe only 10–20% of them are women" could be interpreted as meaning anywhere between 10 and 40 women. Whereas 10%–20% is unambiguous, if you wanted to play safe.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:34, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

That example seems a litle contrived, Shanta. Or it would require a very unusual context, with punctuation to match. I doubt that anyone would ever write "10-20%" and expect readers to understand the 10 is an absolute number but the 20% is a percentage of some other number. It would be both written and understood as a range of percentages. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

"Product X was preferred by only 10–20% of the 50 participants" could be confusing, particularly if the dash were spaced. Warofdreams talk 15:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition, rule 9.18, the percentage sign should be repeated in a range. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 15:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

So some style manuals prefer one and some prefer the other. That's for writing. Note that for speaking, people would probably always say "ten to twenty percent." Duoduoduo (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

December 17

Verb from Ptolemy's name?

At the www.fourthturning.com board a few years ago, I saw a poster mention the "Ptolmecization" of the Strauss-Howe generational theory. Someone inevitably asked what that word meant, and another poster explained, respelling the word as "Ptolemaicization" or something alone those lines, that the word meant adding more and more complex elements to an explanation, in violation of Occam's Razor, in trying to save a theory. (One example listed was the increasingly convoluted tweaks to the Ptolemaic model of the universe as time went on to try to account for all astronomical discoveries despite the Kepler model.)

I have searched Google for "ptolmecize", "ptolemaicize", "ptolemicize" and many other variations, but cannot find a word that gets more than a few ghits. I have come up empty-handed looking at the English index of P-words at Wiktionary. So what is the word that they were using at the Fourth Turning site? Enzingiyi (talk) 04:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Probably just a nonce-word someone made up on the spur of the moment; it might as well have been Ptolemnicization or Ptolemnification as Ptolemaicization. A word only enters dictionaries if it's widely used. In the context mentioned, the better part of valor would be to define the word when first used, or use more common words: overcomplication, rationalization, special pleading, etc. - Nunh-huh 05:23, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

See Productivity (linguistics). This use of '-ize' (in coining new verbs with a meaning of "to render something like [that to which the stem refers]") is productive, especially in academic discourse. So if they are using "Ptolemaic" to refer to those theories which use increasingly tenuous ad hoc explanations, including, in particular, Ptolemaic models of the solar system which use epicycles, then "to ptolemaicize" would be to make or augment theories with such explanations. The word doesn't have to be common, because it is just being produced on (hopefully) mutually-understood grammatical principles. And the variations could all be used, but those most etymologically inclined would probably go for "ptolemaicize"/"-ise". That's probably the second- or third-to-most-common production in academic discourse, next to the -ian/ean/-an and -ic. Keep reading philosophical articles on meaning or logic, and you will eventually see "Kripkean", but you won't see the word in a dictionary, at least not any time soon. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

"Ptolemize" would make more sense, wouldn't it? (I get 7 Google results for that, anwyay.) Adam Bishop (talk) 11:46, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

To ptolemize would be to make Ptolem. The adjective Ptolemaic already exists (the actual name is Ptolemaios, root Ptolemai-, which yields Ptolemai-ikos, hence Ptolemaic), and as mentioned above, adding ize to ic, and then ation to icize are productive rules. The word Ptolemaicize is entirely parsable, whereas the other suggestions are based on a misanalysis of the roots or just plain impressionistic goofing around.

If you really do want to get goofy, there is always the ironic -ma- infix, such as in edumacation. That would yield Ptolemaimacize. μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Depending on which Ptolemy you were talking about, "Ptolemize" could also mean "to marry one's own sister". ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

If you Thagomize, you can certainly Ptolemize. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure you can thangomize, unless you accept a back formated verb based on the use of that back formation. μηδείς (talk) 03:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Romanian 1st person pl. imperative

Is it true that Romanian never uses first‐person plural imperatives of verbs? Why would its sister languages have it and Romanian not so? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 20:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

How would they say "Let us pray"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the OP already looked there, but Romanian verbs#Verb paradigm just gives a blank in that spot in the table. Duoduoduo (talk) 21:18, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Romanian has been substantially influenced by the nearby Slavic languages, although I don't know to what extent that's true for its grammar. For comparison, I found this passage in Bulgarian language#Tense:

There is only one simple tense in the imperative mood – the present – and there are simple forms only for the second person using the suffixes -и/-й (-i, -y/i) for singular and -ете/-йте (-ete, -yte) for plural; e.g., уча /utʃa/ ('to study'): учи /utʃi/, sg., учете /utʃete/, pl.; играя /iɡraja/ 'to play': играй /iɡraj/, играйте /iɡrajte/. There are compound imperative forms for all persons and numbers in the present compound imperative (да играе, da iɡrae/), the present perfect compound imperative (да е играл, /da e iɡral/) and the rarely used present pluperfect compound imperative (да е бил играл, /da e bil iɡral/).

So maybe (I'm guessing) Romanian got this feature from the Slavic languages. And maybe, like Bulgarian, Romanian has a compound imperative in the first person plural? Duoduoduo (talk) 21:25, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

To answer Jack's question, Romanian seems to use a present subjunctive form to express the meaning of a 1st-p plural imperative. In effect they say "That we should pray". To answer the original question, Duoduo is quite correct that Romanian has had a lot of Slavic influence. There is a theory that in the early middle ages, there was widespread Slavic bilingualism among the ancestors of the Romanians. Another theory is that Romanian belongs to a Balkan sprachbund along with the South Slavic languages. Marco polo (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Let us be thankful for that answer.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Latin didn't have formal 1st. person imperatives; the commonly-used imperative forms were 2nd. person only, while the semi-obscure forms with "-to" suffixes could be 2nd. or 3rd... AnonMoos (talk) 22:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

And in fact, 1st person imperatives in western Romance languages (French and Spanish, anyway, not as familiar with the others) are identical to the corresponding present subjunctive forms, just as Romanian uses a present subjunctive to communicate the same sense. The difference may just be one of labeling. These forms are called imperative in French and Spanish but not in Romanian even though they are formed in the same way. Marco polo (talk) 02:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Not according to this wikibooks page, which says about French The imperative is used in tu, nous and vous forms; the nous and vous forms are the same as the indicative in both regular and irregular verbs (except the 3 [sic] irregulars shown below) .... Être, Avoir, Savoir, & Vouloir are the only verbs that are irregular in the imperative. Duoduoduo (talk) 13:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

In at least Être and Avoir, the 1st. plural imperative is the same as the 1st. plural subjunctive (soyons, ayons), but in most other verbs, the 1st. plural imperative is more like the indicative than the subjunctive (i.e. does not use the "-ions" ending)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Answering the original question: That's right, Romanian only has second-person imperatives. For "let's play" you can use the subjunctive, usually amplified with a particle: hai să jucăm. In fact, the subjunctive is commonly used instead of the imperative even for the second person. --Theurgist (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Heraldry

un escudo verde y dentro de él un cordero plateado encima de un libro colorado e atravesado por una bandera con una cruz e su veleta como la trae la devysa de Sanct Joan e por orla castillos e leones e banderas e cruzes de Iherusalen e por devysa una F. e una Y. con sus coronas e yugos e flechas e un letrero a la redonda de la manera siguiente: Joannes est nomen ejus".

This is a 1511 description of the Coat of Arms of Puerto Rico (possibly the illustration in the article might help to understand the meaning). I understand most of it, but my Spanish is not good enough to provide a consistent translation, and I have no idea what the words atravesado and manera mean in a heraldic context and how to understand "con [...] su veleta como la trae la devysa de Sanct Joan". --Oudeísde Correct me! 21:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Translated loosely: A green shield; inside, a silver sheep lamb upon a book, proper, and crossed (obliquely) with a flagstaff topped by a cross, with a pennon like that in St. John's arms; a border of castles, lions, flags, and Jerusalem crosses; with a device of an F and a Y surmounted by crowns, yokes, and arrows; a surrounding motto with the following legend: Joannes est nomen ejus. -- What I find confusing is that in Spanish art the pennon with a cross is characteristic of St. James, not St. John. "Veleta" also means "weather vane", so perhaps that refers to the device at the top of the staff, and the cross of the "bandera" is the red cross on the pennon. (See, for example, this suggestive painting of John by Titian, showing him with a staff topped by a cross: File:TitianStJohn.jpg [8].) The Y and F (and yokes and arrows) are badges of the Catholic Monarchs, Ysabela and Fernando. The yoke (yugo) goes with Ysabela and the arrows (flechas) with Fernando, so File:Coat of Arms of Puerto Rico.svg [9] has them backwards. Elphion (talk) 22:50, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

For the connection between St John, the lamb and the flag, see Lamb of God (or if you're thirsty, try Lamb and Flag). Alansplodge (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Puerto Rico was originally named for Saint John the Baptist and he is its patron saint, so that would be the saint, not St. John, the Evangelist, whose traditional symbol is the eagle. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

December 18

Japanese

What's the difference between 天 and 空? What about 川 and 河? --107.207.240.46 (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

天 -the heavens, home of the gods, emperor 'feeling'. 空- weather, the sky 'feeling'. 川 the normal ordinary 'river'. 河 -used in names /place names.--Jondel (talk) 02:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

空 is simply the sky and used with "air"-related words like air/空気 and airport/空港. Other meanings are emptiness and vanity. 天 is also the sky and it connotes something celestial. Astronomy is 天文学 and Milky Way is 天の川. 川 is general rivers. Originally 河 was a proper noun and it meant Yellow River. 河 is bigger rivers, but it is correct to use 川 for river names like Hudson River/ハドソン川 in ja except some Chinese river names. Oda Mari (talk) 17:43, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Chinese reading

The name Min Yingjun 闵应军 - Which "ying" is in the name? It's for the article Chenpeng Village Primary School stabbing ‎ WhisperToMe (talk) 19:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

It's the middle one. Normally pronounced 'xing', but in names it can be 'ying'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

：:Based on WhisperToMe's previous questions, I think this is about the correct tone for the character (应 can be pronounced either yīng as in 应该, or yìng as in 回应; as far as I know it's never pronounced as xing). I'm afraid I don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure that's what is being asked. 59.108.42.46 (talk) 04:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

sorry, I completely misunderstood the question, and also mistook the character for another one (the 'xing' in 'gaoxing'). Disregard my previous answer. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What I want to know was the correct tone for 应, would it be Yìng or yīng? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe it's yìng (mǐn yìngjūn). Marco polo (talk) 17:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Marco - using the character in a name in the sense in which it is read as "yīng" would be really odd, so I would assume "yìng" (4th tone) unless we have contrary information. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:09, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Japanese pronunciation

If n is directly before an m, is it still pronounced n, or does it become m like before b and p? For example, how is "Gunma" pronounced? --107.207.240.46 (talk) 21:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The "n" is pronounced typically (any possible exceptions to this escape me at the moment). I am no linguist so please forgive my nonsense explanation but I would pronounce it gu-n-ma (three syllables), closing the "u" sound with the "n" then proceeding with "ma". Someone else can probably explain much better. SassyLilNugget (talk) 21:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I know virtually no Japanese, but I'm doubting it's 3 syllables. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly three syllables, but 3 morae - yes, "n" really counts as a full syllable/mora in Japanese -- Ferkelparade π 22:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

It's [m] in Jimmu. I thought it was generally assimilated, but I am far from a fluent Japanese speaker. --ColinFine (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Listen to these native speakers' pronunciation. [10] and at 00:16. Oda Mari (talk) 06:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Translating Japanese Article

Can someone here who speaks Japanese (preferably fluently) please manually (without an online translator) translate this article--http://www.saga-s.co.jp/news/global/corenews.0.2352588.article.html? I am a member of a forum on supercentenarians, as are some other Wikipedia users. We're unsure if this article is talking about Jiroemon Kimura currently being hospitalized or about him previously being hospitalized in July (or both). Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 21:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

"According to [the] Guinness[Book of Records], the oldest person was a lady of 115 years of age, and who died on the 17th, of old age, so Jiroemon Kimura became the oldest person alive, at the age of 115.

According to Kyoutangou City, Mr. Kimura was working at the post office until the age of 65, and now lives with his older son's wife and grandson's wife.

It is said that 'early to bed and early to rise' was his way of life, and lived by saying 'delicious' at meals. On the 15th, his health deteriorated, and was hospitalised, just in case. He could speak and eat, and his health gradually got better, but there is no outlook on him returning from hospital." KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

On the 15th, do they mean July 15 or December 15? Futurist110 (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The article does not mention the month, but from the photos - interview with Guinness Book of Records journalist - it seems that he was being interviewed in October, and it looks like he was at home, and the date on the article is December 18th, so I would hazard a guess that it was December. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that you might be right about it being December. Thank you very much for your amazing help here. Futurist110 (talk) 00:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. That's what we are here for. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Naming of the Wikipedias

Are there are discussions concerning the naming of the Wikipedias of the various languages? For example: Did the German Wikipedia members ever discuss whether to name it Wikipädie instead Wikipedia, or the French Wikipedia members ever discuss whether to name it Wikipedia instead of Wikipédia? Perhaps a secondary question: Has any Wikipedia community considered an entirely different name for their version (i.e., a name not based on variants of "Wiki-" or "-pedia"/"-παίδεια"? Perhaps some actually do (calques or otherwise)? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

de:Wikipädie was a hoax discussed in 2005 (result: delete: 6, keep: 1) [11]. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 08:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The Galician Wikipedia main page welcomes you with "Benvido(a) á Galipedia", but I guess "Wikipedia" is nonetheless the official name, because that's what the logo reads. --Theurgist (talk) 12:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The （simplified character) name of the Chinese version is 维基百科, which transliterates Weijibaike. The first part, 维基, is used in Chinese like the English "wiki". It is a very rough transliteration of the English into Mandarin using characters that mean something like "connect" and "base, foundation". The second part, 百科, has really no connection to "-pedia"/"-παίδεια" except that the first character sort of approximates the pronunciation of the first syllable of "-παίδεια". The two characters together mean "a hundred branches of study" or "a hundred areas of knowledge". Marco polo (talk) 17:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

"百科" is short for 百科全书, which is encyclopedia in Mandarin Chinese. — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

And 百科全书 means literally "the complete book of a hundred subjects". "全书" is a traditional term used for large compilation volumes, such as the Siku Quanshu, the term "百科全书" was coined to refer to the modern Western encyclopaedias and emphasises the comprehensive nature of the subject areas covered. In colloquial speech, 百科全书 is often abbreviated to "百科".

I am pretty sure that 百科 was never intended to be a transliteration of "-paedia". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:58, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

See a early version of deutsche.wikipedia.org here: "Dies ist der/die/das neue deutschsprachige Wikipedia." [12] Rmhermen (talk) 20:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Why the "der/die/das"? Could they not decide what gender Wikipedia has? I would have thought it would follow from Enzyklopädie (i.e., die). — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The Welsh version, Wicipedia, is basically a transliteration of "Wikipedia" into Welsh orthography since we haven't had the letter "k" in the Welsh alphabet since the New Testament was translated in the 16th century (the English printers didn't have enough K's in their font sets to meet Welsh requirements, so we standardised on "c" for the hard "k" sound). Strictly speaking, I think we should have spelt it "Wicipîdïa" to get the long "e" and the "iya" sounds, but it didn't occur to me when I relaunched the Wiki in 2003 (it was basically me that restarted it after it went dormant, for the first few months it was just me writing the basic articles), but there's a general tendency to feel that too many diacritics looks silly, and we'd probably then get into an argument about whether we ought to use some sort of portmanteau of "wici" and "gwyddoniadur" (encyclopaedia). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

However, for English speaking Britons, Wikipeadia is a lost cause ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 13:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't you mean Wikipædia? OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 14:02, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I must get round to buying one of those Qwærty keyboards. Seriously though, and in my defence, I refer you to International Encyclopeadia for Corporations & Partnerships, Encyclopeadia of European Elections, Encyclopeadia of Jewish Communities of Lithuania, RHS Encyclopaedia of Planting Combinations and many more, if you can persuade Google not to auto-correct the spelling into Americanese. Good old Brittanica has stood by the classical æ spelling, even for its CD ROM version.[13] Alansplodge (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I was curious about whether "Wikipædia" redirected to the Wikipedia article. It does! You can see Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia, and hide links, for more fun stuff. szyslak (t) 15:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

• As someone whose name historically includes the letter ash, I find this entire discussion offensive. And funny. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

On a somewhat different note, some Wiktionaries have namings not derived from wiki and dictionary (i.e., from Medieval Latin dictionarium). Example: the Icelandic version is called "Wikiorðabók" which is "Wiki" + "orðabók" (itself from "orð" (cognate with "word") and bók (obviously "book")). Same for the Old English edition: Wiciwordbōc (Wikiwordbook). πr² (t • c) 04:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

December 19

Place–manner–time in English - how strict?

With some surprise I just read Place–manner–time, as many years ago, I had learned manner-place-time to be the usual order in English. Now a sentence I wrote in an essay (which should use rather simple English terms, which is why I avoided "water-meadow", for example) made me think:

"[The Magna Carta] was signed at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215 by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199."

I think that "in 1215", standing after the place, is suboptimal for the readability and the elegance of the sentence - however shifting it to the very end would be a catastrophy in both regards ("... in 1199, in 1215."). I think the best would be to start the sentence with "In 1215, the Magna Carta...". What do you think about it? Is there some freedom of word order? (And any other feedback for this sentence?) --KnightMove (talk) 02:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The order "by King John of England in 1215" is fine, but I'd go with "[The Magna Carta] was signed in 12125 at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199.". μηδείς (talk) 02:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If you are going simple. You should consider shorter sentences and active voice. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

We can't really tell without context how to cut that down into separate sentences. But I agree, "King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199, signed [The Magna Carta] at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215" works well. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The relevant context is just my starting sentence (based on the introduction in the Simple English Wikipedia, but altered), which might explain why I chose passive:

"One of the most celebrated documents in English history is the Magna Carta, which is Latin for 'Great Charter'. It was signed at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215 by King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199."

Would it still be better to use active voice, even though the text features the Magna Carta?

How could I pack the year best into the first sentence?

About the long sentences: I'm going to read it aloud and slowly, as a listening and understanding practice for the others. I think that some longer, more challenging sentences won't hurt, but unknown words would. --KnightMove (talk) 08:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

But note that "wet grassland" is not necessarily an accurate description of a water-meadow. "Field" might be a safer substitute.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

(1) Both the OP's original wording (""[The Magna Carta] was signed at Runnymede, ..., in 1215 by...." and Medeis's wording "[The Magna Carta] was signed in 1215 at Runnymede, ... , by.... " are absolutely fine. (2) If you want to pack the date into the first sentence, it would be "One of the most celebrated documents in English history is the Magna Carta (1215), which is Latin for 'Great Charter'." (3) In the second sentence I would say the passive voice is much preferable to the active voice, because it allows you to put the focus ("The Magna Carta" or "It") at the start of the sentence. The active-voice alternative would be the much inferior "King John of England, who had succeeded his departed brother Richard the Lionheart in 1199, signed it at Runnymede, a wet grassland near London, in 1215." Duoduoduo (talk) 16:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to agree, this is definitely one of those times that the insistence on active voice just ruins the flow of information. Lsfreak (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree that either form is OK, though I'd quibble about "was signed... by King John of England", because he didn't sign it - he couldn't write, he affixed his seal to it. Also I really don't like that "departed brother" bit, maybe it's my British bluntness but I'd prefer "dead" or "deceased"; "departed" mainly implies "left" to me, which could be used to describe Richard the Lionheart at any time during his reign, as he only spent around six months of his ten year reign actually in England. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 22:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If the Magna Carta is the subject under discussion, then insistence on the active voice is wrong. The OP's last formulation is perfectly cromulent. But the word order is still at issue for simple english. If it is for simple english, I would say "The Magna Carta, which is the Latin name for the 'Great Charter', is one of the most famous documents of English history. It was signed in 1215 at Runnymede (which is a wet grass-land near London) by King John of England, who had taken the kingship from his missing brother, Richard the Lionheart, in 1199.""μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Just to quibble on John's accession: I can find no support for your assertion that he took the kingship from Richard the Lionheart. Rather, all the sources I have seen say that John was named as heir by Richard on his deathbed. During Richard's absence John had been wheeling and dealing to secure his position as Richard's heir, but had not usurped his brother. So to be accurate, the second part of the last sentence should read something like "... who had acceeded to the throne on the death of his brother... " --TammyMoet (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

So all those Robin Hood films are wrong? I'm devastated! Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

'Take control' can be active or passive regarding agency--took control applies equally when the former dies on his own as when you yourself have killed him. I did worry about that word choice, actually, but only enough to decide it was okay here. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Noun-izing words, and how to refer to them

Playing an online word game, today, I wondered whether it's grammatically correct to stick an "s" at the end of any word in English, when the subject of the sentence is multiple instances of the word itself.

For example, if the speaker wanted to know how many times the word "happy" occurred in a sentence, he might ask, How many happys were there? More problematically, if the word were "dogs", he might ask How many dogses were there? (Most writers would write the two words as happy's and dogs's, but I'm pretty sure that's grammatically incorrect.)

My questions: (a) Are the above constructions grammatically correct? I know it's more clear-cut if the sentences were rephrased, but I just want to know if these constructions are correct. (b) If so, does that mean that the word dogses may be a correctly spelled word? Tarcil (talk) 05:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The articles Use–mention distinction is of interest to the problem you are having. --Jayron32 06:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I wonder whether it ever occurred to style manual writers to address this situation or not. I would use italics or quotes around "happy" but not enclosing the "s": 'How many "happy"s were there?' or 'How many happys were there?' But I suspect no one would approve of 'How many dogss were there?' or 'How many dogses were there?' (Incidentally, to my ear "nounifying" sounds more natural than "noun-izing". Duoduoduo (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

A style manual would almost certainly recommend that in a formal context this is rephrased to something like "How many times did he say 'happy'?" or "How many occurrences of 'happy' are there on page 340?". However eg a satirical newspaper article might use a lighter style with deliberate use of a non-existent word for the purpose of humour: "How many taxeses were there in the minister's speech?". -Ehrenkater (talk) 18:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Linguistics term

Hello all! When translating a phrase from one language to another (i.e., English), sometimes I see something like:

Je ne parle pas français.

1STPERSONSING-NEGATIVE-Speak-NEG-French

"I do not speak French"

Is there a word for the second representation (stuff like "SUBJECTMARKER-PRESENT-pinch-RECIPROCAL-FINALVOWEL") ? πr² (t • c) 17:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks a bit like some kind of Metasyntax. But I'm not sure. --Jayron32 19:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Interlinear gloss. Lsfreak (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Yep, interlinear gloss is right. Angr (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

That's definitely it, thanks! πr² (t • c) 22:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

rhotic

How can I put the rhotic /œ/ in Wikipedia ? Fête (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

In an article? Can you not copy and paste it? You should also find it in the list of "Special characters" right above the editing box. If you mean as an article, we have one: Œ. --BDD (talk) 23:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I guess he means [œ̃˞], which can be found in R-coloured vowel, and can be copied and pasted just like I did right now. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Where does one hear such an exotic vowel? μηδείς (talk) 03:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes American English [ɚ] with some degree of retroflexion is loosely equated with French [œ] (going both ways). I'm not sure what the basis for this is, but they do sound at least slightly similar. Have no idea about [œ] with r-coloring... AnonMoos (talk) 04:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

According to the R-coloured vowel article, that vowel is found in Quebec French. I don't know what the vowel is exactly, but "un" for example usually sounds something like "earn". (The way that that vowel is pronounced by people who were in French Immersion in Ontario is even more irritating.) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that this is how a stressed rhotic mid vowel in words such as occur, prefer, or her is pronounced in certain American Midland accents. Marco polo (talk) 15:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The above comments seem to be weird subjective comments by British English speakers who find both rhotic and rounded front vowels equally exotic. No American is ever taught French by being told to substitute -er for eu, and the two bear no resemblance to rhotic speakers. We are told to say "eh" while extending our lips to say "oh". perhaps this is a mattew of Bwits who have a pwobwem pwonouncing theieh doubew yews? μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Whatever -- I'm a proud Murrkin from USofAia, and my [ɚ] is syllabically quasi-retroflexally rhotic. No real French teacher would teach students to do this, but many quick-phrases-for-tourists books have done this in their rough-and-ready pronunciation guides, and I have a book for French speakers (ISBN 2-8315-0860-6) which uses the French spelling "eu" to indicate [ə] and [ʌ], and "eur" to indicated [ɝ]/[ɚ]. Of course, this may also have to do with the recent French tendency to pronounce traditional French schwa with a kind of front rounded vowel... AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, I myself speak rhotic American English. My comment does not confuse the French non-rhotic vowel with a rhotic vowel. I merely observe that in certain versions of American English, an r-colored version of French -oeu- as in boeuf (not -eu as in feu) occurs. Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to argue that some Americans don't badly mispronounce French. (Manger le berf sounds almost as good as Fetchez la vache!) I still find it the hardest language to pronounce well that I have learned. I studied it under a Romanian Jewess with Yiddish-accented English, and she would never have suggested such a shortcut. Might as well have said silver plates means "thanks" and shut the door means "I love you". μηδείς (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

"Silver plates" might get you close to "please", but not particularly close to "thanks". Angr (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, mercy bucket! μηδείς (talk) 18:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you were referring to me but, I'm a Canadian English speaker... Adam Bishop (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to all you folk. And thanks, Adam, (smiley) I shall keep that fact on file.... μηδείς (talk) 23:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

To be serious, I really do find this suggestion that one say "er" for "eu" quite odd. Is there any serious textbook that suggests it beyong a Ber(ullsh)itz level? μηδείς (talk) 23:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting to learn French as a second language that way, but listen to several seconds of Quebecois French and you'll hear rhotic vowels. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

French is never rhotic. In fact most people find it erotic. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

E-rhotic is the online version of rhotic. You know, the sound you make when you're not making a sound. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:30, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

This conversation reminds me of F.U.N.E.X. from the Two Ronnies. Alansplodge (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

December 20

Riistomaasiirtäjä

How would you translate this the Finnish word "Riistomaasiirtäjä" into English. (fwiw, it's the title of a song from Alamaailman Vasarat's album Valta). ---Sluzzelin talk 04:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

According to several internet sources, including this blog, it means "“Hammers of the Underworld”. Hopefully, one of our Finnish-speaking editors will confirm this. Sorry, that's the name of the band. Alansplodge (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I've amended my ambiguous wording. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks but it was more a case of me not reading the sources properly. Anyhow, User:JIP is Finnish and a regular editor here; if nobody posts an answer soon, you could try copying your question onto his talk page. Alansplodge (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks like "Christmas bearer" at google trans. μηδείς (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

That's a hilariously novel translation, and I'd be interested to hear how Google got to 'Christmas' from 'riistomaa' (which I read as "colony"). I have my own non-native-speaker interpretation of the entire word but I'll wait to see if JIP responds first before opining. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I only got that after segmenting the word, and GT will give bad translations if a nonsense word matches various hits in searches according to whatever their algorithm is. I also got translations with colony as a part, but none of them were full translations. It is the Finns' fault for having so many suffixes. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

China–North Korea border

How do you say China–North Korea border in Mandarin Chinese? I want to start a stub on this topic on the Chinese Wikipedia Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think if you have to ask that question, you should not be creating stubs in that language. My Chinese is just good enough that I think I know the answer to your question. However, I would not dare to author an article in the Chinese Wikipedia, and I don't think that you should either. Marco polo (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I created a few stubs for topics on Arabic Wikipedia that I thought it was rather pathetic there was no article for (such as "Flag of Syria"), but more in the spirit of adventure than anything. Most of them are now vastly expanded beyond where I was able to leave them, which is of course what should happen. I stopped partly because the exoticism wore off, and partly because I realized that there was murky politics on the Arabic Wikipedia which my language skills were incompetent to understand... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Marco polo, I already have authored articles in the Chinese Wikipedia (see zh:Special:Contributions/WhisperToMe). Several (such as those for Andrew Lih and Vienna Hotels) have even survived AFD there WhisperToMe (talk) 21:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure that's a very high standard to aim at (all my stubs for Arabic Wikipedia have survived, as far as I know, though one image I uploaded before there was an article to put it in got deleted...). I never tried to write anything that I would have had to ask other people to translate (though one frustration was that I could never find an Arabic equivalent for "Naval jack" in any dictionary). -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The remaining ones never went to AFD; they survived too. Anyway, I am just trying to make a stub, not a featured article. All I need to know for now is the name (or I could just see if the Chinese Wikipedia has an article on an equivalent topic and try to plug in "China" and "North Korea") WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The U.S. Mexico border on ZH is at 美墨边境 (first is US, second is Mexico) so I'm assuming 中朝边境 (first is China, second is Korea) would be the term. Am I right? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is the usual term used in China. The corresponding term used in Chinese by North Korea is 朝中边境: the general rule is to put one's own side (or friendly side) first in such compounds. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I should add that 边境 means the "border territory" or "border lands", so is appropriate in the context of "I took a trip to visit the Sino-(North) Korean border". By contrast, if you are talking about the abstract border line, the term is 边界. So "Sino-(North) Korean border dispute" would be "中朝边界纠纷". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The stub has been started at zh:中朝边境 - I studied the US-Mexico one to get the ways of correctly saying things WhisperToMe (talk) 02:53, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, all of you, thank you for your help :) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Runners-up

In Australia national cricket team, someone just changed a team's position in a tournament from "Second Place" to "Runners-Up". I have no great issue with the change. Both term are common enough in my experience, and the meaning is clear. The change is also consistent with the rest of the table. But it got me thinking. Where did the term "Runners-Up" come from? When looked at beyond its common usage, it seems a pretty weird construction. (And does Wikipedia have a general policy on the use of "Runners-Up" vs "Second Place"?) HiLo48 (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably someone who "runs up" when the winner is already at the finish line. AnonMoos (talk) 17:59, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

• It's the head noun that is pluralized here, not up which is a proposition. This is no different from attorneys general or princes in waiting. There may be a term for it which someone else can provide. μηδείς (talk) 18:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Post-positive preposition? Attorneys-general and princes in waiting feature post-positive adjectives. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 08:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand that, but how does "runners-up" come to mean second place? HiLo48 (talk) 20:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Great question, the phrase has always seemed transparent to me. But it's not, is it? μηδείς (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Nobody likes to be second best! Alansplodge (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Remember, second place is just the biggest loser! --Jayron32 23:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; a bit more helpfully; From the OED: "1890 A. R. STARR in Upland Shooting 471 The dog last running with the winner is called the runner up, because he ran through the races up to the last race without being defeated once." and Earliest reference is 1842. The origin of the word is from dog racing (coursing). It refers to the dog who takes the second prize, losing only the final course to the winner. Finally, 1842, originally in dog racing; see runner + up. General sense is from 1885. Alansplodge (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

It may be a subset of "also-rans". Maybe in general that's anyone other than a place-getter; but in a two-horse race like cricket, the runner-up, second-place-getter and sole also-ran are all the same team. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The usage in the article I named, Australia national cricket team, is for when Australia participated in a multi-team tournament, like the World Cup, so it does mean second place out of more than two. HiLo48 (talk) 04:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't let's go

Years ago I read Don't Let's Go to the Dogs Tonight and I've always been curious about "don't let's go". Is that a Rhodesian/South African English thing? I seem to remember seeing that construction once before in some Commonwealth-originated text but a brief look through Google only points me back to the title of this book, and that sentence is not actually mentioned in the book itself as far as I can remember. Has anyone else ever heard (or better yet, used) this construction? Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about that. The American band They Might Be Giants have a song titled "Don't Let's Start", so there's some evidence that the "Don't let's..." construction is not peculiar to Southern African English. Noel Coward had a song titled "Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans", so it's a known construction in at least three varieties of English (American, British, and Southern African). --Jayron32 23:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course! Who could have believed for all the world that I had forgotten "Don't Let's Start"? Thanks— Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• "Let's not go (there, etc.)" is more common in Ameicran English. But there is no problem with or foreignness at all to the 4 million hitted "do not let us forget"... μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of that, I also realized that the uncontracted forms have different connotations for me. "Do not let us go" feels more imperative than "let us not go", whereas the contracted forms seem much closer to each other. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"Do not let us go" is a perfectly ordinary sentence in the meanings "Do not allow us to leave" or "Do not relax your hold on us" (which would be contracted "Don't let us go")... AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

It's an equivalent of 'let's not', but mainly in British English [14]. I hear it occasionally and have probably used it myself once or twice. Mikenorton (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

And then there's the harder-to-justify-grammatically Let's Don't Call It a Night. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway uses that phrase several times in The Sun Also Rises, e.g. '“Don't let's go there,” Brett said. “I don't want staring at just now.”' SemanticMantis (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

December 21

Difference between Spanish language in Europe and America

How big is the difference between Spanish spoken in Spain and Latin America compared to difference between British and American English? British and American English seem to only have few differences in pronouncing and some words. In Spanish quite many words seem to have totally different meanings in Europe and America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.251.114.132 (talk) 08:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The differences are largely analogous. In both cases there are numerous regional dialects, each with some distinct features of pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar. (see Spanish dialects and varieties, Regional accents of English, and List of dialects of the English language). ----Mattmatt1987 (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's any single grammatical difference between British and American English that is as striking as the disappearance of vosotros from Latin American Spanish. --Trovatore (talk) 01:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

An important word which has very different connotations in European and American Spanish is coger. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 23:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Certain people won't use coger themselves, but I have never had anyone bat an eye when I have used it. People in NYC pretty much know you are going to run into different usages. μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I lived in the Canary Islands as a kid, and found the local accent to be quite different from Castillian. I was told it's because it's closer to South American Spanish (even though it was North Africa). Final 's', for example, was never pronounced. A 'd' before 'i' (between vowels) became a 'y' or occasionally 'th'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

It's very close to the Caribbean Spanish accent. 109.99.71.97 (talk) 16:55, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

• Mattmatt's point needs to be emphasized, though: Latin American Spanish is not nearly as monolithic as American English or even North American English (i.e. American English + Canadian English). The differences between, say, Argentine Spanish and Mexican Spanish are probably as great as between either of them and Castilian. Angr (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Hangul and more needed for politician article

Anyong haseyo, all.
Hwang Woo-yea looks to me not McCune–Reischauer or RR. Could someone possibly edit the article to tidy it up? I would do it myself, except there's the small matter of me knowing almost no Korean at all.
--Shirt58 (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)