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June 2

Dogo Argentino Breeder

I'm looking to get a Dogo Argentino puppy and I would like to get one from Argentina from Ulises Nores the grandson of the original breeder. I have come across two websites: http://www.noresdogoargentino.com.ar and http://www.dogoargentinonores.com Can anyone tell me if either of these are legit or how I can go about confirming that they are. --195.244.210.38 (talk) 10:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

A good first step would be to type the name of the breeder and his company into Google and look for links (possibly on the second or third page of the search results) that don't come from either of those websites. These ought to get you some information written by other people about this breeder. If it's a complete scam, you should be able to find that out.

That said - are you aware that this dog is banned in the UK, some cities and states in the US, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Singapore, Ukraine and Israel? Seems like it's a bad idea to own one.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The IP traces to Gibraltar. Section 583 of Act 2011-23 prohibits the importation or keeping of a "dangerous dog" (p424 of the PDF), and lists Dogo Argentino as such a dog (schedule 10 part A; p474 of the PDF). So unless the Minister has amended schedule A subsequently (as they're allowed to do under section 583(3)), which wasn't the case at least as soon as 2012, this breed is illegal in Gibraltar. 87.115.106.1 (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Let me just add a link to our Dogo Argentino article. Looie496 (talk) 22:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Changing fate

Fate is defined as a predetermined future. As such, is it really possible to "change my fate"? After all, wouldn't "changing fate" be part of fate itself since it has already been planned out? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yep. It's nonsense to think that one can change one's fate, should such a thing exist. That's the simple logical answer. I can almost guarantee though that someone will present some amazing intellectual gymnastics in an attempt to prove you and me wrong. (You would see even better versions over at Conservapedia.) HiLo48 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but it isn't simple either. Although ones' actions and circumstances matter such as with the butterfly effect, we know too that many events such as the sun rising each day are completely predictable, thus causality itself is complex. See causality for an over-view of the subject. --Modocc (talk) 13:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate questions here:

• Is your future pre-determined? (ie Does "fate" exist?)
• If there is fate, can you ever know your future state? (ie Can you know your own fate?)

The first question is tricky. It hinges entirely on whether the universe is in any way truly "random". Some great thinkers believed that it cannot be. Einstein, for example, famously said "As I have said so many times, God doesn't play dice with the world." and fought hard to maintain the position that we live in a "clockwork universe" where everything is predetermined. However, Quantum theory really makes that a tough position to maintain - and I think that most modern scientists believe that there is true randomness in the universe - which means that future events are not predetermined and therefore fate doesn't exist.

The answer to the second question is a categorical "NO!". When we look out into space, we see the star Proxima Centaurii as it looked 4.2 years ago. We have no reasonable way to know what it's like today. Hence, a photon released from Proxima Centaurii today could arrive on earth 4.2 years from now, add a tiny amount of heat to an atom in the atmosphere, which over the course of a year might alter the weather (via the well-known "butterfly effect" of chaos theory) to cause you to be struck by lightning and killed outright. If there is no photon then you live - if there is that photon with that exact position and energy, you die. Your fate (five years from now) cannot even in principle be known without perfect knowledge about every fundamental particle in that distant star 4.2 years from now. It's true that in a truly deterministic universe, we might be able to observe the state of Proxima Centaurii as it was 4.2 years ago - and from that deduce whether a photon is currently being emitted there or not. But things like the uncertainty principle ensure that we cannot know all of that information about the star.

So, on balance, you provide us with an axiom: "Fate is defined as a predetermined future" - but we know that this axiom is false - and it's a well-established principle of logic that from falsehood, you can prove anything. So the question of whether fate can be changed is akin to asking whether unicorns like sausages.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I once had a llama, who once bit at my hotdog and knocked it down. It ate the bun (and relish), but left the sausage. Its fate would be much the same with a unicorn, I'll bet. Speaking of betting, even if God rolled dice, there is an exact (though extremely difficult) way to roll any number on any surface, if you know all the variables. If God is all-knowing and wants his will done, even his dice would leave nothing to chance. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Our models of reality are distinctly different from reality, but I am confident that I'll be dead in the near future, and logic has nothing to do with that fate. The OP's reasoning included the notion of fate being planned (that is just one model) but in general causality is complex and depends on what kinds of events one is considering. --Modocc (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Our models of reality (collectively) don't even begin to enter into it, since our models of reality (individually) are also not reality. What we perceive is reality filtered through our own brain, and there's not even any way to establish with perfect precision using only our own faculties and sound logic, that anything outside of our own mind actually exists (see solipsism). There's no way to prove to ourselves with any certainty that the model of reality our mind has created has any connection to actual reality. Or simply put, there's no perfect proof that everything I experience is not a hallucination. At some point, we need to take the connections between reality and our perception thereof on blind faith. --Jayron32 17:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

perfect proofs don't exist; tangent
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Aye!! You are correct! But solipsism leads to being a fallibilist, but I'm a scientific realist and not a solipsist since I recognize that events are scientifically predictable and its the predictability of reality that gives us our science regarding nature and progress which I prefer not being trampled on by our own backward skepticisms regarding causality. --Modocc (talk) 17:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC) I'm not saying that one should believe in solipsism, merely that the core of scientific proof is the ability to apply logic to data to arrive at conclusions; but there is no such conclusion that will allow us to prove, in that manner, that our own experiences are real. We need to take it on faith. Once we are prepared to take that on faith, we can then move past that moment and then work to explain the reality we experience in terms of data, logic, and further conclusions. The problem comes when we expect perfect provability out of reality; that is if we expect that we can work backwards using nothing but data and logic and then come to a sound conclusion about our own existence to ourselves. We can't. It's the philosophical equivalent of Gödel's second theorem in the sense that we cannot establish the truth of our own experience using only our own experience. --Jayron32 17:42, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Since illusions are simply mental abstractions that are real in their own way, like the artwork we design... I'm going around in circles 'cause my reality is still present (maybe I need another chromosomal tilt switch, ;-)). --Modocc (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Illusions are an internal reality, created by your own brain. The fundamental question, the hard problem here, is how to connect your internal reality (the collection of nerve impulses that give you sensations and perceptions) to the external reality (stuff that exists whether or not your brain does that) in a way that is perfectly consistent with sound scientific proof, that is that connects data to a conclusion via logic. --Jayron32 18:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC) We don't need a brain to determine how plants interact with their external environment, nor do we need a sophisticated brain to determine how insects do too. Recently I read how our brains create phantom guesses as to what is happening when incomplete inputs (such as a severed hand) occur. Essentially, we are pretty good at guesswork, connecting the internal with the external, but only when we have sufficient data. I'm not sure how or why "proof" always needs to enter into our evaluations or beliefs. Modocc (talk) 18:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC) How would you have this conversation with me if it were not for your brain? I am confused by your assertion that the brain is not involved in constructing internal models of the world. How are each of our internal models of the world constructed if not by our brain? Is it our liver? Our left pinky finger. Enlighten me on the unimportance of the brain in thought processes. This should be interesting. Oh, and don't use your brain to do so... --Jayron32 18:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Sorry I didn't write that well. We have our brains, I meant the plant doesn't need a brain for us to objectively analysis it. I was simply pointing out that it matters who's brain we are talking about, my mother's or mine? Or those of some mice or whales? I suppose the short of what I'm saying is that I don't see how or why truths regarding self-awareness are impossible to know (I could make implausible assumptions regarding reality but that's still doesn't leave me empty-handed, for I've still existed (the last time I checked my memories' memes) --Modocc (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Prove that the model of the plant you make in your own brain is a reliable construction of what the plant really is if your brain wasn't there to study it, in such a way that does not, at some point, require you to say "We need to just accept this as true, without proof or connection to data and logic". --Jayron32 18:50, 2 June 2013 (UTC) I can't because I ate it. Its being digested into its constituent parts and no longer exists as a whole plant. But I'm pretty sure it did exist and there are more at my local stores. -Modocc (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2013 (UTC) No, you think you ate it. Maybe you didn't, and it was all an illusion. Establishing the difference is the tricky part. --Jayron32 19:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC) It does not matter whether we are ultimately wrong or right with regard to our beliefs (we can be happy with them anyway( it was great plant BTW)), and like I said I could make implausible assumptions, but I don't think that logic, philosophy or science requires us to merely assume or claim a philosophized "faith" regarding the realities of our little planet. With regard to perfect proofs, well everything isn't just dandy I suppose, and we can hat this tangential debate too. :-) -Modocc (talk) 19:19, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

[The name of Proxima Centauri ends with only one "i".—Wavelength (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)]

• Fate as a metaphysical fact in a deterministic sense is impossible to prove, since we cannot run time over and see if it happens identically.

The claim is unfalsifiable. We cannot do an experiment to rerun reality, and even if it were possible there would still be only one real outcome.

• Fate in the sense of what will factually happen to you is a tautology. What will happen to you will happen to you by definition. To say it is fated adds no information.

The claim is meaningless. Consider the story from Diogenes Laertius of the philosopher Zeno of Citium, whose slave, when being whipped for theft, complained that according to his Stoic philosophy he was fated to steal. Zeno's response was yes, and I am fated to punish you.

• Belief that events of a broad scope will happen is reasonable, but not very helpful. Yes, you will die some day.

Yes, this is the beauty of science. And fat old smoker and drunkard Winston Churchill lived to 90, while Jim Fixx died at 52.

• Belief in specific fates--I will be killed by a spider I didn't see next year--is pathological. μηδείς (talk) 19:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

See various topics like paranoia, superstition, and risk illiteracy. [updated μηδείς (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2013 (UTC)]

Source for your broad/specific categorical distinction? Simple counterexamples would simply be astrologers that make broad inaccurate claims, such as the world ending tomorrow, or alternatively, an ancient/modern scientist that predicts an eclipse will happen at a specific time of year. --Modocc (talk) 18:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I am really not interested in an argument, but the is a wide difference between statistical predictions like how many calves will be born to a herd next year and causal predictions, like, as you are one month pregnant I expect you to deliver next february and pseudoscience such as humans will transition to machine minds by 2040. μηδείς (talk) 18:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Predicting a birth is not a casual endeavor but we seem to take such things for granted, and the differences between rational predictions and the irrational ones you speak of, whether these be statistical or not, is not of their scope or precision, but one of accuracy. Thus some things are generalizable, but others are not (see black swan), which is why counterexamples tend to refute unfounded claims. Modocc (talk) 19:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Your last point is not universal. Some predictions are pathological certainly, but sometimes we have reasonable grounds for predicting specific fates. --Modocc (talk) 20:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Like if someone spends all their time working with venomous spiders, they might reasonably surmise that a spider would kill them someday. And then God might surprise him with a falling tree. Kind of like with Steve Irwin. He might have supposed a croc might kill him someday. Falling to a stingray probably was not on his radar. Johnny Carson, though, once said to Ed McMahon about his chain-smoking, "These things are killing me." Which they eventually did. But that could only be considered "fate" if it's presumed it was impossible for him to stop smoking. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:32, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? Am I supposed to believe you two were unable to understand my point? μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Try doing some science, or even engineering without making any accurate predictions. -Modocc (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I still think it's clear that by picking some bizarre prediction like "I will be killed by a spider next year" is pernicious if common superstition, not science, which falls under the broad predictions I mentioned above. See related comment below. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

The English word "fate" has various meanings. The concept of fate can be traced to ancient Greek religion and the Fates. A similar concept is predestination.

A physician might counsel a patient to make lifestyle changes in order to avoid a particular fate. An automobile driver might swerve to avoid a particular fate. Changes can be for the better or for the worse.

See Ezekiel 33:1–20 and Romans 11:17–24.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You are speaking metaphorically. You are quite aware doctors warn about certain diseases and people swerve to avoid collisions. This sort of stuff is the ref dek at its worst, folks. μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I'll repeat these sort of gotcha answers (what if I work in a spider lab?) are the worst ref desk has to offer outside direct personal attacks and the sort of trolling that gets one hatted or banned. Any system can be hacked, any interaction can be gamed. It is not helpful to say, in a discussion of fate in the metaphysical or magical sense that fate exists because doctors warn against the potential results of overeating. If I were playing that game I could say, but you might get hit by a bus on the way home from the doctor's. In this case I am stepping back and saying let's not play these semantic games. Modocc has politely asked me to provide sources for my comments above such as that dtererminism can't be tested, which I didn't do, and which is a stepping back on his part. I will do so, but tomorrow, forgive me; it is late, and I have work in the morning. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I followed up like I promised, yesterday, but I am not interested in debate so I probably won't respond further. μηδείς (talk) 18:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

In this world, accidents happen. See Ecclesiastes 9:11.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Master Oogway: There are no accidents. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 04:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• It might also be interesting to consider that a fate as something decreed that one cannot act to avoid is a religious notion, and rather than the three fates tracing from the Greeks through the Romans, the three fates/Norns/witches/weavers of Greek, Roman, Slavic and Gemanic tradition represent the pre-Indo-European Old-European culture of the triple goddess discussed in the works of Marija Gimbutas and in Robert Graves' White Goddess. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Robert E Vardman Cenotaph Road

Dear Wikipedia,

I was sending this to comment on a bad link. In your entry for Robert E Vardman, the author, you mention that he is the author of the Cenotaph Road series and you have a link to Cenotaph Road. However, the link goes to the place "Cenotaph Road" and not the book. His book is a fantasy novel and has nothing to do with that place.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiophile66 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the link. It is now a red link as no article yet exists about this work, but it at least doesn't link to an unrelated topic. --Jayron32 18:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You beat me to it by a couple of seconds! To Audiophile66, usually the best place for these comments is on the Talk Page of the article - in this case Talk:Robert_E._Vardeman; however there seems to be very little activity on that article, so you have done the right thing. Alansplodge (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Recycling

Hi there. Reading article about recycling. Can not find any reference to colour coding of waste materials in general. Here in Australia, kerbside pick up of recyclables are denoted by green for landfill, blue for assorted clean household recyclables & red denoting garden waste. Have been reading the article above & cannot find information regarding the existence of ISO Standards in relation to colour coding of receptacles, (if any). Can you assist in advising of any such standard, & which reference article to research. Thank you AeragRRR — Preceding unsigned comment added by AeragRRR (talk • contribs) 23:56, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest that such colour coding is not even standard in Australia. I live on the outskirts of Melbourne, and have never heard of it. Where are you AeragRRR? HiLo48 (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Am aware of differing standard, that is why the question referred to ISO units. There are multiple standards as applied through local municipal councils & indefinite packaging, resulting in waste going to landfill. In reading Wikepedia could find no reference in defining colours. Have worked in different industries, where each have used differing colour codes to assist in the sorting of recyclable material. Hope this clarifies the matter.AeragRRR AeragRRR (talk) 03:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Standards Australia has AS 4123.7-2006: Mobile waste containers - Part 7: Colours, markings and designation requirements.--Melburnian (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Does ISO sometimes use colours? I thought they might want to avoid it, given the large number of colour-blind people. --Lgriot (talk) 08:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Here in the UK, each collection authority decides on its own colours and what materials it collects for recycling. This results in regular confusion for holidaymakers from a different area. Dbfirs 15:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the case in Australia too. I spend a fair bit of my time at a community facility just in the next municipality. Their bins a differently coloured from mine, and I do get confused. Proper standards would be nice. HiLo48 (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

June 3

Metal Repair

I have some metal tool, which I accidentally dropped on the floor. Now it has some very rough edge, where it looks like the polish went off and the grainy metal interior is visible. Is there a way to fix this and make it polished/shiny again? Should I use sandpaper? --helohe (talk) 00:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

No, that will just scratch it. But it's hard to give any sort of answer when your description is so indefinite. Do you mean it has a blade that got dented, or what? What sort of tool is it, and what part hit the floor? Looie496 (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree the we need more info. However, sandpaper might be the fix. It comes in many grain sizes, the finest of which don't leave (visible) scratches. However, if the damage is large, you would spend a lot of time hand polishing it. In such a case, a grinding wheel might be more appropriate, or an orbital sander, if it's not a sharp part that was damaged. There are places you can take tools to have them sharpened, like hardware stores, which might be able to help, if you lack the proper equipment. StuRat (talk) 07:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

UK Road Marking

Resolved

Hi all,

Yesterday whilst driving along the A1 southbound, around Stevenage, I kept noticing single white horizontal lines on the road, in both lanes at the same time. I tried looking on Google Streetview for it, but I can't find them. They look like the wider lines in this image: UK Gatso Road Markings

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the wider white lines alone; the image is for illustration only. Any idea what the markings I describe are, please?

Rixxin (talk) 09:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Paint testing? (Serious suggestion.) HiLo48 (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it. They repeated in (what seemed to be) regular intervals. My working guess is that they mark quarter or 1/8th miles, but I wanted to see if anyone knew for sure. Rixxin (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

They use these to gauge speeds from 2 pictures taken by a speed camera - presumably they are a fixed distance apart. They put them on both sides so they can easily switch the camera to the other side (which I have seen done before). Google "speed camera markings" for some references. 80.254.147.164 (talk) 11:12, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

No, that's Gatso camera road markings, like in the linked image. What I saw looked like this:

____________________________________ <Left edge of dual-carriageway road

|

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <Lane marker of dual-carriageway road

|

____________________________________ <Right edge of dual-carriageway road

There were no cameras around (no warning signs for cameras either!), and no bridges (I'm sure there are speed cameras on bridges) so it wouldn't make sense for it to be a speed trap. Rixxin (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Although if you just mean the wide lines, and are excluding the thinner ones, it could be they got rid of the thinner ones and left the wider ones. Although more likely is that they are to indicate how far you should be behind the car in front. Usually they use chevrons for this but I think I have seen lines used. How far apart were the lines? 80.254.147.164 (talk) 11:21, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I know the chevrons you mean, those are much more regular in occurrence than these mystery white lines. As I said above in another reply, they were perhaps 1/4 or 1/8 of a mile apart. Rixxin (talk) 11:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

They could be marks for the police to use in timing a vehicle over a set distance - presumably in this case from an unmarked car following behind. The Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 5, section 22.34 (page 137) suggests that a square or circle of white paint in the centre of the lane is normally used, but section 22.37 says "Other markings may be used in association with speed cameras, at the highway authority's discretion. They enable the distance a vehicle has moved in the time interval between two photographs to be measured and hence the speed calculated. Such markings are not considered to be traffic signs and are not prescribed in the Regulations." Whether markings such as the ones you've seen could be used when not in association with speed cameras is unclear to me, but it sounds like the highway authority has discretion in the matter and can act on police recommendations. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• The word 'horizontal' might be creating some confusion. If the lines are parallel to the traffic flow then they are probably 'delineation' lines. When you say horizontal do you mean parallel to the traffic flow?--Aspro (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I think Rixxin's diagram above shows that he means perpendicular to the trafic flow, so they look "horizontal" from the driver's viewpoint. The "A1 around Stevenage" is strictly speaking the A1(M), so motorway rules apply, in case that makes any difference. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

This site [1] (near the bottom) suggests it is a calibration mark for a portable speed camera and also to gauge speeds without such equipment. 80.254.147.164 (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, those look like the rectangular markings shown in the document that Cucumber Mike linked to. There are a couple of what could be these that are 0.6 miles (1km?) apart, just south of Stevenage, at points A and B here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:06, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I have always understood those marking to be to help the police time a car over a known distance from a following patrol vehicle. They might well date from before the advent of automatic (Gatso) cameras. The markings near Gatso cameras (called calibration lines in the article), need to be much closer together so the car is still within range of the camera and its two flashes, while the markings the OP is asking about are much further apart to give the police officer a chance to get a reasonable time with his stopwatch and provide reasonably accurate evidence of speeding. Astronaut (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

It's most likely the VASCAR system.[2] Alansplodge (talk) 19:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Good answers, all. I think this can be marked as "Answered". Thanks! Rixxin (talk) 07:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if authorities monitor speed by aircraft in the UK, but in North America, lines such as those described by the OP are often designed for that purpose. A trailing patrol car can use its own speedometer to determine whether a car it is following is speeding, and by how much, but when watching from the air, marks on the roadway at known intervals are essential. --Xuxl (talk) 08:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they do, as seen here in the Derbyshire Dales. I would suspect that it's more economical to use a helicopter in remote parts of the country, but that a car would be more budget friendly in built-up areas, such as around Stevenage. Nevertheless, you might well be right. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Rotating Seal

Why do seals rotate? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-wiHALV-Ck) Horatio Snickers (talk) 15:20, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

See Stereotypy (non-human). --Jayron32 15:24, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

They might be on the lookout for polar bears. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Ages

Why does young people tend to set their eyes on older people and (very often) in older people who are impossible for them. (e.g. a student has a crush on his High School teacher, a music fan loves her favourite singer like mad, a football fan girl falls for her favourite player...) It is already almost pattern ?? Miss Bono (zootalk) 19:12, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

In common speech, this is known by the cliche puppy love. --Jayron32 01:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Puppy love is a crush between two underage people. What the OP has described is paedophilia from the minor's POV. μηδείς (talk) 03:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

" the term can also be used to describe the fondness of a child for an adult, for example, students being attracted to their teachers, their friends' parents, or children to older celebrities: indeed, some consider that in puppy love 'usually the object of such infatuation is some highly idealised person who is some years older - a teacher, an uncle or aunt, a friend of the family, an actor, or rock star' - and typically the sufferer 'greatly moved with emotion...spend[s] much time in daydreams and wishful fantasies'[5] about them." With references. --Jayron32 03:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm sure quacks like Freud et. al. have a lot to say on the matter, but I don't know that it means much, as it seems to be an almost universal part of the human condition. --Jayron32 20:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC) "I dn't agree with his ideas" does not equal "He was a quack". From our article: Freud's psychoanalytic system came to dominate the field from early in the twentieth century, forming the basis for many later variants. While these systems have adopted different theories and techniques, all have followed Freud by attempting to effect behavioral change through having patients talk about their difficulties. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 22:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC) His methods have been broadly adopted. His ideas that people are messed up because as children they couldn't fuck their parents has been pretty soundly held as hokum. --Jayron32 22:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC) I'm curious, then, why you would choose to mention such a person on the Reference Desk. If whatever he says is to be disregarded, what's the point of referring to him at all? Why not identify some source that you do have confidence in, rather than one you don't?-- Jack of Oz [Talk] 22:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC) Point taken. --Jayron32 01:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd say one factor is that older people are seen as more successful or mature than the young person's contemporaries. I'm sure Darwin would have approved of seeking a mate who would give your offspring a better chance. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• Nominate this question for closure as request for debate and opinion. The OP should be aware of our policy above: "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• • The question is fine; there are plenty of scholarly references that address the question "is this a pattern" or "if it is a pattern, why?" Granted, that is not what's written above, but it's not too hard to fill in a more carefully worded question. We should WP:AGF here. Anyway, this is far from my expertise, but by searching on Google Scholar for various combinations of /authority infatuation role model crush age difference attraction fan/ I found a decent general book, titled "Attraction and Close relationships" [3], which has several relevant passages, as well as a paper "models and mentors", here [4] -- and even fun stuff like "Identity Achievement and Idol Worship among Teenagers in Hong Kong" [5]. Not all of these are freely available, and more relevant refs could be found, but certainly this is a question we can provide references for. SemanticMantis (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

So now we are just making up what we think the OP really meant to say? Do you have a reference for that notion? Do you realize that in fact the OP has asked about paedophilia from the child's view--a student's sexual attraction for his high school teacher? μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

let's talk about this elsewhere
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Do you realize its not your job to be the hallway monitor of the reference desks? --Jayron32 03:05, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Does it say under the guidelines at the top of the page that they are not to be enforced by medeis? or by no one? or that Jaryon's position is to prevent any guidelines from being upheld? μηδείς (talk) 04:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Let's talk about this elsewhere, because it doesn't help the OP get references to help them work out the answer to their question. --Jayron32 04:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

The question should be: "Why do [...]" ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 04:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Before anyone hats the discussion, let's make sure we point the OP in the right direction: Age disparity in sexual relationships. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Think Clarityfiend's explanation holds more weight. There are plenty of examples throughout history (and in later days – the Hollywood industry) were older women fawn over younger, very successful men -even if those men are ugly, selfish and self absorbed. But as these men are fewer in number (except in Holleywood ect) so, it usually looked at the other way around. On the other side of the fences, I suppose a real live example would by Billy Joel & Christie Brinkley. At the time Billy was a famous (well, my sister had heard of him) and no doubt Christie considered him a 'nice bit of rough'. Debbie Harry sang about this 'competition' from a woman’s point of view in:[6] but you may need to know a little Latin to get the full impact. As Henry Kissinger is reputed to have uttered: Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. [7].--Aspro (talk)

Wow, I am sorry, I didn't want to cause so much... bothers around here. I am sorry and I apologize for my silly question. In the end, it was just that, a question... I wanted to know if there was any pattern for that behavior but... now you can close the thread if you want to :( Miss Bono (zootalk) 12:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

No need to apologize, and I hope the links above are useful to you. For future questions, keep in mind that carefully wording your question will generally get you better answers :) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that the effect our OP is considering isn't a matter of age at all. People get infatuated with all sorts of people - it's only remarkable when the object of their affection is unattainable in some way. When you look at the class of unattainable people, whom young people might mentally attach themselves to, they are going to be unattainable simply because there is an age difference - or because they are in positions of responsibility or that the person is famous. Since it takes time to get famous or to be placed in a position of responsibility - it's very likely that a crush (being defined here as an "unattainable" love interest) is going to be with an older person just because of how that class of person got to be what they are. Justin Bieber was just 15 years old when he made his big debut in 2009 - I'm pretty sure there were girls aged 15 and above who had crushes on him - so age wasn't a particular factor in their infatuation. When someone has an infatuation with someone who is not unattainable, we don't think anything special of it. SteveBaker (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

But it is not always with younger people as Justin Bieber. I know about a lot of people who have crush on their techers (e. g. who are 49 years old), I have a friend who is totally in love with Steven Tyler and she thinks he is sexy... etc. What does take a young girl/boy to set her/his eyes on a person who can be her/his father/mother?? and they feel totally crush on them. (take my example of Steven Tyler) Miss Bono (zootalk) 16:57, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that kids who have a crush on their teachers are quite likely having that crush because they are teachers - not because they happen to be older. Obviously teachers tend, overwhelmingly, to be older - but it's not at all obvious that age is the cause of the infatuation. I present the Justin Bieber example to show you that it's perfectly possible for this kind of thing to happen with younger people - which tends to reinforce my point that age isn't obviously the causal factor that you seem to think it is. Perhaps this infatuation comes from attaching oneself to people in a position of relative power - teachers, rock-stars, film-stars. I don't know for sure that this is the case - but it seems to me that there is no special attachment to (say) older film stars than to younger ones. I just wish to open your eyes to the possibility that age may have nothing whatever to do with it. More important is the issue of observer bias. We don't particularly notice when a young person attaches their interests to someone else of their own age whom they meet often - but we do notice when they attach their focus to someone much older or someone unattainable for other reasons. It might well be that age simply isn't a factor in how these infatuations arise - only in how noticeable they are as acts of foolishness.

To be clear, I'm not sure whether this is a true thing or not - but it's definitely a strong possibility - and should not be discounted at the outset. SteveBaker (talk) 20:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I get your point Baker, and thanks for your thoughts. Miss Bono (zootalk) 20:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Suggest we archive this as answered by Tammy and Aspro above. What follows there references is just forum chatter. μηδείς (talk) 22:58, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
  • (a) We don't archive parts of answers and (b) it's pretty damned insulting to have my carefully reasoned response characterized as "just forum chatter" when it's a valid issue with the original question that might easily invalidate the usefulness of earlier answers and (c) who set you up as judge and jury of what is or is not useful information? SteveBaker (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Okay, hatted then, Steve? Your careful crafted answer is total OR with not a dash of link or reference. μηδείς (talk) 16:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
      • This question is not a hill worth dieing on, just let it be. It isn't bothering anybody but you. It will just drift away into the archives like everything else. Just don't read it if you don't like it. Trust me, it works :) SemanticMantis (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey! I am sorry for the devastation I caused with my question. didn't mean to. Miss Bono (zootalk) 20:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem is the carefully crafted opinion given in response--some people did actually give answers and an article, which surprised me. It should have ended there. μηδείς (talk) 00:21, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Children forming attachments to adults is certainly nothing new and is a normal part of growing up. The problem arises with the subset of those adults who turn out to be predators. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

June 4

Oricon charts

Is there anyplace I can go online to get oricon Japanese album charts? I need album chart listings from 1984-1997 for Dragon Ball soundtrack information. An IP added a few links to some album charts awhile back, but these links now lead 404 pages. Sarujo (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I guess five days with no response either means nobody here knows, or there isn't any. Sarujo (talk) 08:29, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

World income distribution

Where can I get the global income distribution in csv/excel/whatever? All the statistics on global income distribution I can find seem to be per country and not in the kind of format that it would be trivial to aggregate to a world distribution. I'm just wanting to make a zany grading system where your quantile gets converted to an income, so accuracy isn't super critical, but I'd still prefer something up to date and accurate. --81.175.227.88 (talk) 18:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I googled for "World income distribution" and obtained some graphs that seem to be what you want. What I don't see is the numerical data from which you could make a csv or whatever. You may just have to measure points on the graph. Anyway, check out: http://rs.resalliance.org/2009/10/28/world-distribution-of-income/ which links to this paper: http://www.nber.org/papers/w15433.pdf - which contains the parameters for best-fit lognormal, gamma and weibull distributions - you could certainly plug those into an excel spreadsheet. SteveBaker (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Viewing Full Census Records for the 1860 U.S. Census

Basically, I am trying to help verify this one case of a man who allegedly died at age 112 in 1967. Here is James M. "Uncle Jim" King's obituary: http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/franklin/obits/1960s/1967-06.txt. Basically, the Gerontology Research Group (GRG) verifies the ages of supercentenarians (people who are 110+ years old)-- http://www.grg.org/Adams/B2.HTM. Basically, for the 1860 U.S. Census, FamilySearch does not let you view the whole household in a particular U.S. Census form. In contrast, FamilySearch lets you view the whole household (all of the members of this household) on later U.S. Censuses. Here's an example:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VYT3-QNJ

James M King, "United States Census, 1940" Name: James M King Titles & Terms: Event: Census Event Year: 1940 Event Place: Police Jury Ward 8, Franklin, Louisiana, United States Gender: Male Age: 85 Marital Status: Widowed Race (Original): Race (Standardized): White Relationship to Head of Household (Original): Relationship to Head of Household (Standardized): Head Birthplace: Arkansas Estimated Birth Year: 1855 Residence in 1935: Same House Enumeration District Number: 21-26 Family Number: 8 Sheet Number and Letter: 1B Line Number: 41 NARA Publication Number: T627 NARA Roll Number: 1401 Digital Folder Number: 005454637 Image Number: 00763 Household Gender Age Birthplace Head James M King M 85 Arkansas Son George E King M 60 Louisiana Son-in-law A E Hynum M 58 Mississippi Daughter Lucy Hynum F 52 Louisiana Grandson Walter Hynum M 36 Louisiana

Does someone here already have a subscription to Ancestry.com or a similar website which allows one to look at the whole household in the 1860 U.S. Census? I think that the 1860 U.S. Census already recorded and enumerated all of the members of a particular household. I need some help in searching the 1860 U.S. Census, since finding an 1860 U.S. Census match for James M. King would be crucial in helping him get verified by the GRG. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd try asking at WP:REX. They may be able to help with subscription-based services like Ancestry.com. --Jayron32 22:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I was unsure about whether or not WP:REX was the proper place to ask about this, but since you recommended it, I might as well give it a go. Futurist110 (talk) 22:57, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

There is family tree info and supporting records at Ancestry, but I did not find him in the 1860 census. This does not in any way disprove he was born in 1854. Have you found elsewhere supporting documents such as his marriage record from 1878 (to Clara Brinsfield), the 1900 census stating his birth date as Oct 1854, the 1880 census stating he was then 26? Do you know his parents' names, since there were lots of little J. Kings in the 1860 census (some census takers just recorded initials and last names. Have you seen the discussion of his census records (including some possible 1860 census records) at "The 110 club?" Wikipedia's "spam filter" does not allow me yo post a direct link, but I just did a Google search on "James m king" 1854 arkansas Some inferences are needed, to determine which J King or James King in the 1860 census he might be. Edison (talk) 23:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

There are several James King entries for Arkansas in the 1860 census, but you would need to tell us more about his parents, siblings, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I found a large amount of records for James M. King, all of which I posted in/on the 110 Club forum, I think in the Potential Cases section. Hopefully everywhere here can see my research on him in that link. Basically, the GRG has a 20 year rule where there needs to be a (reliable) documents from within the first 20 years of someone's life in order for a case to become pending, and eventually, verified. While I did find an 1870 U.S. Census match for James King and two of his brothers in Missouri in 1870, this census match is not completely unequivocal since theoretically it could be another James King (though this is probably unlikely) and since this U.S. Census match does not list him with his parents in Arkansas (rather, it lists James and apparently two of his brothers living with a different family in Missouri, since apparently James's parents both already died by 1870). A page about James King's father is located here: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tnkaren1&id=I0082.

Basically, James Madison King had three brothers:

• James Madison ** (Jim) King b: 15 NOV 1854 in Independence, Arkansas, USA
• John King b: BEF 1864 in Independence Co, Ark
• William E. King b: 1853 in Mississippi
• Early McCullough Edward (Mack) King b: 24 FEB 1856 in Independence Co, Ark

Also, I managed to find the death certificates for two of James King's brothers on FamilySearch (you can see them for yourself at my 110 Club link). Basically, it appears that James King's mother's name was Ann Slaughter (King). James's marriage record would be outside of the 20 year window, which it why it would be nice to find an 1860 U.S. Census match for him. Keep in mind that some names can be misspelled in the 1860 U.S. Census. Basically, if there is a household in the 1860 U.S. Census in Arkansas which includes the names of most or all of King's family members (his three brothers, plus his parents William Edward King and Ann Slaughter) plus James King himself, then this household is probably the correct 1860 U.S. Census match for James King. While I believe that he was indeed born in 1854, early-life (within the first 20 years of his life) evidence in favor of his claimed age is much more important than evidence against his claimed age. Futurist110 (talk) 00:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Scans of the 1860 census are available including here. If you can read fancy hand and know the location of the family. Indexes are more widely available. Rmhermen (talk) 00:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I cannot read "fancy hand," and I am not very good at going through hundreds of pages to find what I want. Futurist110 (talk) 00:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I did find several potential matches for James M. King and/or his family in the 1860 U.S. Census, but I need some help in seeing the names of the whole household in each of these matches:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-4HY

James King, "United States Census, 1860" Name: James King Event Type: Event Year: Event Place: Minor Civil Division: Johnson Township Age (Expanded): 6 years Birth Year (Estimated): Birthplace: Gender: Page: 6 Household ID: Affiliate Publication Number: M653 GS Film number: 803049 Digital Folder Number: 4211308 Image Number: 00394 Sources

Add to My Source Box Go to My Source Box Share

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Citing this Record

"United States Census, 1860," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-4HY : accessed 02 Jun 2013), James King, 1860.

Can this be his 1860 U.S. Census match?

What about this 1860 U.S. Census match:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WQ-GSH

J King, "United States Census, 1860" Name: J King Event Type: Event Year: Event Place: Minor Civil Division: Barquee Township Age (Expanded): 6 years Birth Year (Estimated): Birthplace: Gender: Page: 42 Household ID: Affiliate Publication Number: M653 GS Film number: 803044 Digital Folder Number: 4211303 Image Number: 00257 Sources

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Citing this Record

"United States Census, 1860," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WQ-GSH : accessed 02 Jun 2013), J King, 1860.

Could this be James's brother's William's 1860 U.S. Census match:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8W7-YXH

William King, "United States Census, 1860" Name: William King Event Type: Event Year: Event Place: Minor Civil Division: Union Township Age (Expanded): 6 years Birth Year (Estimated): Birthplace: Gender: Page: 90 Household ID: Affiliate Publication Number: M653 GS Film number: 803043 Digital Folder Number: 4211302 Image Number: 00422 Sources

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Citing this Record

"United States Census, 1860," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8W7-YXH : accessed 02 Jun 2013), William King, 1860.

Could this be James's father's Edward's 1860 U.S. Census match?:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-DFD

Edward King, "United States Census, 1860" Name: Edward King Event Type: Event Year: Event Place: Minor Civil Division: Plain Township Age (Expanded): 40 years Birth Year (Estimated): Birthplace: Gender: Page: 123 Household ID: Affiliate Publication Number: M653 GS Film number: 803049 Digital Folder Number: 4211308 Image Number: 00522 Sources

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Citing this Record

"United States Census, 1860," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-DFD : accessed 02 Jun 2013), Edward King, 1860.

Could this be James Madison King's brother's Early McCullough Edward "Mack" King's 1860 U.S. Census match?:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-G56

M E King, "United States Census, 1860" Name: M E King Event Type: Event Year: Event Place: Minor Civil Division: Spring Hill Township Age (Expanded): 4 years Birth Year (Estimated): Birthplace: Gender: Page: 151 Household ID: Affiliate Publication Number: M653 GS Film number: 803041 Digital Folder Number: 4211300 Image Number: 00239 Sources

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"United States Census, 1860," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8WM-G56 : accessed 02 Jun 2013), M E King, 1860.

I'm sorry for all of these 1860 U.S. Census matches, but since I don't have a subscription to Ancestry.com, I can't see the names of the whole household in any of these U.S. Census matches. sad.gif Thus, I need someone who has an Ancestry.com subscription to please help me out and see if any of these U.S. Census matches are indeed for James Madison King's family. I am perfectly willing to share credit for verifying this case, if this case eventually gets verified. Also, it is worth noting that no verified undisputed man has surpassed James M. King's claimed age until 1992 (when Frederick Frazier did it), 25 years after James M. King's death. Futurist110 (talk) 00:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I think ancestry.com offers a short, free trial period. That might enable you to find what you're looking for. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Free 1860 indexes are widely available. Here] is Family Search's, [Here] is GenWeb's/ Rmhermen (talk) 13:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The cemetery where he's buried (See his FindAGrave entry), may also have documentation you'd find relevant. They seem to be affiliated with Boeuf Prairie Methodist Church, 4590 Highway 135, Winnsboro, LA 71295, USA (318) 723-4706; I find no separate listing for contacting the cemetery. Dru of Id (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Laura Ingalls Wilder bio

First, I want to say. It was very difficult to find the right place to make a comment. But more importantly , I wanted to commend the voluteers and staff of Wikipedia. I just read the biography of Laura Ingall Wilder. Not only did I have my question answered, but finding the article facinating, I was pulled in and read every word. Just wanted to say "Job Well done!".Mona kruger (talk) 22:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

On behalf of the volunteers who created the article, you're welcome. Did you have a question about Laura Ingalls Wilder? Edison (talk) 22:30, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

The best place to make a comment on any article is the Talk page of the article itself. There's a tab at the top labelled Talk. Just click on that and then Edit the page, putting new material at the bottom of the page. Technically, Talk pages are for discussing proposed improvements to the article, but I'm sure the editors concerned would welcome your feedback that it's excellent as it is. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

On the default Vector skin the tab is actually labelled "Discussion" rather than "Talk". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

June 5

Shakespear

IN THE 1990 MOVIE, tUMBLE WEEDS, A TEENAGE GIRL WHO WAS TRYING OUT FOR THE PART OF Romeo, was encourage by a male adult to continue, when she expressed having difficulity with the cadence of the lines. HE TOLD HER THAT HE WROTE TO THE BEAT OF THE HUMAN HEART, THUMP THUMP,,ITY THUMB, AND use that as a guide, has that ever been referenced.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guyaly (talk • contribs) 01:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Is your question whether Shakespeare consciously wrote to the beat of the human heart? You can find numerous references that the iambic pentameter (very frequently used by Shakespeare) accompanies the heart's rhythm (tha THUMP), lasting five beats or one breath (see article). You can find texts that argue that it's plausible that he was aware of this (his frequent references to "beat" as rhythm, the fact that poetry was seen as having calming or even medicinal powers at his time, for example in "Making Sense of Shakespeare", by Charles H. Frey, Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press, 1999, ISBN 9780838638316), but I wasn't able to find any "proof" that this was his intention. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia page appears to have been hacked...

The Wikipedia entry at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Jilin_Baoyuanfeng_poultry_plant_fire

appears to have been hacked. It shows the poultry processing plant as being in Pyongyang, and that a missile launch was involved:

"On 35 May 1813, a missile launch at a poultry processing plant in Pyongyang (米沙子镇),[2] a town about 900,000,000,009,000,000,000,000 km (5.59234073019×1023 mi) from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, killed at least 1200 trillion people.[4][5] More than 60 others were hospitalised with injuries.[3]"

Just thought someone should know... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkideals (talk • contribs) 07:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Not hacked. Vandalised. An unfortunate, occasional consequence of our policy that anyone can edit Wikipedia. It's been fixed. HiLo48 (talk) 07:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

(Sounds like the plot of a Hubbard novel. μηδείς (talk) 00:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC))

Bird Seed: "Article Feedback Page not enabled for this page"

This is just an FYI.....

I looked up "Bird Seed" because I wanted to know what seeds (or "food") is found in the COMMON Bag of Bird Seed.

I tried to post the following question at the end of the Bird Seed Article, but received the following message: Article Feedback Page not enabled for this page

The question I asked was, "What seeds, or 'food,' is typically found in a bag of general or 'all purpose' bird feed for use in outdoor bird feeders? An "all purpose" BAG of bird food would be something you would find at Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, etc. Thanks!"

Thank you! Michelle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.109.131 (talk) 15:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

You've come to the right place for general knowledge questions like that. "Article feedback" is a tool for a specific purpose, that of rating how good an article is: asking questions related to an article is not regarded as "feedback" in Wikipedia. You could also post the question on the article's Talk page Talk:Bird food; but that page is for improving the article, not asking question about it. So if you wanted to suggest that (referenced!) information about the composition of bird seed be discussed in the article, the Talk page would be the right place. But for your general question, this is the right place. (I don't know the answer, by the way, so I'm leaving that for somebody who does). --ColinFine (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Did you read bird seed? It lists sunflower seeds, safflower seed and millet near the top. A common wal-mart bag will mostly be cracked corn (surprising redlink), with some sunflower and millet mixed in. Other mixes might contain niger seed. Keep in mind cracked corn is the cheapest and least nutritious for birds, so more expensive brands will have less of that. Any decent brand should list the ingredients on the bag, if it doesn't buy a different brand that does :) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

different styles of wearing hijab

is there a website that shows different ways of wearing hijab with pictures? My sister's friend wants to know.--Donmust90 (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

For anything fashion these days, go to pinterest. Here [8] a page there dedicated to hijab styles. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Is that another way of asking this question?[9] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

How do I estimate the wholesale price?

I'm considering becoming a part time general trader in Africa as a hobby/sideline. In one Africa capital, the lowest priced Android phone was approx $59 at the the electronics table of the supermarket. If the retail price is $59, what is the general range of the unit price that the retailer paid to the wholesaler/distributor who brought and cleared the Androids to port and cleared it?

Many thanks.

Grrfooo (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no way to know unless somebody tells you. Retailers won't charge less than they paid if they can help it, but beyond that, they will charge as much as they think they can get. Looie496 (talk) 18:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

...and with all respect, given the cluelessness of the question I would advise you against trying to operate in such a cutthroat environment. Looie496 (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes. When you play the Game of Phones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:17, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Question restated: did Aphrodite her girdle as a shield for King Anchises

This part of my question wasn't answered. Venustar84 (talk) 23:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Your question still no verb. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, what are you suggesting she did with her girdle? HiLo48 (talk) 02:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Robert Graves certainly tells the story so in The Greek Myths (section g), citing as his source Servius' commentary on the Aeneid. But the cited passage in Servius (last sentence) makes no specific mention of her girdle in this context, so Graves's "interposed her girdle" would seem to be a bit of embroidery on his part. Deor (talk) 13:21, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

June 6

Eating bad salt

Approximately two thousand years ago, what would happen to you if you had consumed salt that "had gone bad"? What would it taste like? If you can't use it for the soil or for the manure pile, then what can you use it for besides discarding it? Sneazy (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

It was probably just sand or clay. So pretty tastless but no good for your teeth! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:51, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Is this a reference to something Biblical? Salt doesn't go bad. That's why we can mine it from places where it's been sitting for millions of years and use it safely with almost no processing. HiLo48 (talk) 02:06, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

HiLo: I think Sneazy is making a reference to Matthew 5:13:

You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot.

I think we can all agree, Christian or not, that this quotation does not in and of itself imply that salt can "go bad", or that Jesus thought it could. I recall vague speculation that what people of the time used for "salt" was some impure version that could lose its saltiness (say, by having all the actual salt leach out of it, though how this would happen in practice is obscure to me), but be that as it may, the saying does not imply any such thing; it works just fine even if salt cannot, in reality, lose its taste. --Trovatore (talk) 03:29, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I just read that ancient salt was not pure sodium chloride, so the other material in the salt could go bad and cause the salt to be no good. I am wondering what is the so-called "other material". [Taken from The New Oxford Annotated Bible, New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha (ecumenical study bible, third augmented edition.)] Sneazy (talk) 02:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Modern salt isn't pure sodium chloride either. (Ancient salt was often sea salt, rather than rock salt. But they are all simple chemical salts, none of which 'go bad'. The statement is an interesting proof Jesus is not a modern hoax. μηδείς (talk) 02:22, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I thought you were going to say "iodised salt" for modern salt. Table salt is iodised to reduce instances of goitres. What do you mean by "modern hoax"? Sneazy (talk) 02:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

And adding to Medeis' comment - even though modern salt isn't pure sodium chloride, most of it is, and it's a very good preservative in its own right, so going bad just doesn't seem likely. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Sneazy, I am an atheist. But I am certain of the historical reality of Jesus, while many (often militant) anti-theists bring his actual reality into question. See Historicity of Jesus. One of the best proofs of his actual existence is that the gospels quote him as saying things that are just plain false or which put him in a bad light (getting angry at the money changers, doubting on the cross) according to Christian teaching. This is called evidence against interest. His not knowing that, chemically, his saying was nonsense, is evidence he existed as a man of his age. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I do recall watching a film titled Passion of the Christ (2004), directed by Mel Gibson. The actor who plays Jesus begins to doubt on the cross. So, the director would have allowed that to be filmed. Plus, Mel Gibson, according to the Wiki article is raised a "Traditionalist Catholic". Apparently, a traditionalist catholic has no problems with doubting on the cross. Sneazy (talk) 14:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

That actor, Jim Caviezel ironically reports to a different sort of "god" now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

In biblical scholarship specifically, the principle you're talking about is called the criterion of embarrassment, although the application there is slightly different — it's one technique used to distinguish genuine sayings or events from ones that might have been made up later. But as I say above, I don't really agree with the applicability in this particular case, because the saying is still quite comprehensible without any need to posit salt that can de-saltify itself. It's just saying, suppose you went to your pantry and found that your salt had no taste. What good would it be? What would you do with it? And what good would you be, if you lost your metaphorical saltness, whatever exactly that is? --Trovatore (talk) 03:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, you mentioned that criterion before, but I couldn't remember the phrase. My point was, since no omniscient god would use such an example (given he would know it was unscientific) we can actually credit the statement to a real person. But you are right it doesn't embarrass Jesus particularly--others of his age might have said it. μηδείς (talk) 04:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I dispute the claim that it would be embarrassing to anyone, in any age. It's a counterfactual. Suppose salt lost its saltness — what good would it be? It's a perfectly good question, whether there's any way for salt to lose its saltness or not. --Trovatore (talk) 07:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding my point, which is not all that vital anyway. The statement itself appears to be a gnostic metaphor, with salt standing for wisdom. The "embarrassment" would be that any educated person would know salt is a pure substance, and that you can't add some factor to pure salt to get it to taste saltier. So, if someone were creating a hoax Jesus, rather than reporting actual teachings, it's unlikely these are words they would craft for him to supposedly have said. μηδείς (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding my point. It doesn't matter whether salt can lose its saltiness or not (who mentioned making it taste saltier? That's not in there at all; only losing the salty taste is discussed.). In fact, it almost works better if it's understood that this is something that can never happen, because paradoxes get people's attention and make them think more deeply about what is being said. As to whether a hoaxer would invent it, I suppose it depends on whether he's clever enough to go for that paradox on his own initiative. --Trovatore (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

To put it simply, no. Let's end this here. You can ask on my talk page if you have any questions about what I have been trying to explain. μηδείς (talk) 04:16, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I always wonder about translations and interpretations at times like this. That Biblical quote from Trovatore doesn't mention salt going bad, rather salt losing its taste and being no longer good for anything. So our OP's words don't seem entirely accurate, but maybe there were multiple possible meanings of the original words anyway. Do the serious scholars have much to say on this? HiLo48 (talk) 04:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• It is possible for salt to go bad, not in the sense of becoming dangerous, but in the sense of becoming nasty. If it isn't kept in a good container it can absorb water from the air, and then if it is exposed to unpleasant odors, they can be absorbed into the water. The result can be salt that smells or tastes foul -- moldy, for example. Looie496 (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

The expression is actually taken from Luke 14:34-35 in this English form in the specific bible version that I mentioned: "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how can saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; they throw it away. Let anyone with ears to hear listen!" Below the text are the annotations. The editors note that the mentions about salt are also on Matthew 5:13 and Mark 9:49-50. They explain that the saying warns against lackadaisical discipleship, and that ancient salt was not pure sodium chloride, so the other material in the salt could go bad and cause the salt to be no good. I think Looie496 is onto something. Sneazy (talk) 13:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Salt in the Bible#Salt in the New Testament suggests that the salt becomes mixed with another mineral. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

In response to the two posts above, it's already been pointed out several times in this thread that modern "domestic" salt isn't pure sodium chloride either. I don't think we have an explanation yet. HiLo48 (talk) 21:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I think I may have it, but would like the translation checked against the Greek. The salt may have been used to cure meat. Perhaps on repeated occasions, with the brine dried out each time, which can be repeated but not indefinitely. If that was the major bulk use of salt in the eastern Med, as it would have been in C19 rural France for instance, then the idea of salt losing its savour would have been familiar enough to make sense as a metaphor. Itsmejudith (talk) 05:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Distance calculation

What point would be equidistant from Birmingham, London and Cardiff? I presume it would be in England. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

As a first approximation, using simple geometry on Google maps, it is somewhere close to Ashbury in Oxfordshire. The exact location will depend on where exactly you locate the centres of Birmingham, London and Cardiff, and whether you treat the Earth as a true sphere or allow for it's non-spherical distortions (I'm assuming you mean 'nearest point on the surface' - the actual nearest point will probably be below ground level). AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Using Google Earth's measurement tool (which gives the great circle distance) and its idea of the centre of each city and some ruler geometry, I get a point roughly 10 miles SW of Ashbury, near Chiseldon in Wiltshire, for the circumcentre (almost exactly bisecting the Cardiff/London path). That point should be 65 miles from each. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! The reason for my question was: The ICC Champions Trophy is taking place in England, at venues in Cardiff, Birmingham and London. For someone wanting to go to all the games, where would be the most sensible location to base oneself? I'd ruled out basing in one of the cities and travelling to the other cities, as it occurred to me that the three cities formed a triangle. In that case it should have been easy to triangulate a point, as you have both done. (I'd have done it myself but I wasn't in reach of my paper map, and I tried on Google Maps, but the nearest I got was Swindon/Milton Keynes. I was sure that wasn't right.) --TammyMoet (talk) 19:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Swindon is close to the circumcentre - Milton Keynes is roughly equidistant between Birmingham and London, but a long way from Cardiff. Is distance really the issue, though, or travelling time? And how are you proposing to travel? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Firstly I should say that this is a thought exercise only, I'm only proposing to follow the tournament on radio! However, in considering this (it arose from considering the problems faced by the commentators - where do they stay?) I discounted train travel because there are day/night matches scheduled which may finish after the last train leaves, and therefore would choose to hire a car. You would have to be able to arrive at the ground around 9.30 am and, on a d/n match, would have to leave the ground after 11.30 pm. I therefore concluded that it would be best to stay equidistant from each ground, as road links are roughly the same for each city. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Article feedback on WP and a question on video

I added a section for this question. A recent question here [10] also had a problem with WP article feedback not working. Original question follows: SemanticMantis (talk) 18:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

hi i saw this article called Comparison_of_H.264_and_VC-1 and couldnt see some info i was looking for and noticed a leave feedback area on the bottom of the page:

"Help improve this page Did you find what you were looking for?"

i clicked "no" and tried to leave the following feedback:

" hi is there a sample video (or simple text table) showing the original filesizes of a sample file, with the same quality audio/video, but showing the resulting filesizes of each compressed output, along with baseline compression times taken using same software/hardware?

for example: Sample 1 (click here) achieved 90% compression using VC1, and 85% compression using h264 (or viceversa)

as long as all the other variables are similar as possible, eg audio bitrate and width/height/resolutions for the video, so that we can easily see practical examples and better judge for ourselves as much as possible which is more efficient. (assuming all processing is "post processing" and not live realtime)

thanks "

BUT: then when i click to submit it, a message pops back instead saying this: "article feedback not enabled for this page"

very contradictory :)

please can you help by trying to see if theres a general issue with the feedback module on the website? and maybe you could update the page with some more tabular information (even if based on some examples would help)

thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.181.132 (talk) 18:13, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Article feedback is for commenting about the article itself, not its subject. Not all articles provide this feedback. For general questions about the article's subject, you should use the article's talk page or this very Reference Desk page you just wrote to. JIP | Talk 18:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

That's untrue. You are not supposed to handle general questions about an article's subject in the article's talk page. Many talk pages (eg Talk:Computer) have the {{talkheader}} which says exactly that: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the (whatever) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.". Our WP:TALK guideline says the very same thing " Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article.".

This is a critical point.

Many people bend that rule - but even then, there is no place in which a question about the intersection of several article subjects may be discussed. Aside from the Ref Desk, there is hardly anywhere within Wikipedia where you can discuss the subject of an article with a general audience. This is a bad thing - if a child comes to Wikipedia to get a feel for how far the sun is from the earth by figuring out how long it would take you to walk that distance - then we are of no help whatever. The information you need to answer that is all here. Walking says how fast people walk, Earth and Sun tells you how far away the sun is - but figuring out that time=distance/speed is much harder...even if by chance the child finds Equations of motion - they'll instantly hit a bunch of calculus and symbols with dots and double dots over the top. They can't ask the question (within WP:TALK guidelines on any of those article talk pages - the help desk isn't going to be much help.

The Ref Desk provides that connectivity between articles and a place to ask questions that require some degree of "connect the dots" thinking.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand that, and I have felt the same issue too. This Reference Desk is pretty much the only place on Wikipedia where I can ask questions related to actual topics, not to Wikipedia itself. I have usually found it fairly easy to get an answer here. On the other hand, questions on article talk pages generally go unnoticed for months, if not years.

This brings to mind a different question: Why does "Article feedback" even exist if both it and the article's talk page, which is provided by default through MediaWiki, are about the same thing - the article itself, not its subject? JIP | Talk 19:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

That's a good question. Many people (well, me, but I think in my own mind I count for "many") question the wisdom of the effort spent on the article feedback system, since it essentially duplicates the purpose of the talk pages exactly, but buries comments that should appear on the talk page to be easy to find, and instead puts them somewhere that most people won't ever see them, so concerns expressed there stand less of a chance of being fixed. --Jayron32 19:34, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Alcohol laws in Germany vs. Finland

I was in Munich, Germany, two weeks ago, and when I went to a pub near Theresienwiese, I noticed that the staff drank alcoholic beverages themselves while on duty. Curious about this, I asked about this from the staff at my local pub here in Finland, and the bartender said that such a thing in Finland is absolutely forbidden. Merely possessing alcoholic beverages, even if not consuming them, while on duty is enough for bar staff in Finland to be instantly sacked. What is the law about this in Germany? JIP | Talk 20:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it a legal issue or just company policy? Hot Stop 22:02, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, in Bavaria, beer is typically not considered "an alcoholic beverage", but part of the normal diet. For a long time, even police officers on duty were allowed a beer. I have a vague recollection that that has changed in recent years, but I'm not quite sure. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:08, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• It wasn't until the advent of cheep gin in the 1600's that abolition became a serious movement in Western Europe. Before that weak beer in the north and diluted wine in the south had been consumed for millennia as more hygienic than running water. μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

June 7

Open access chess magazines/journals

Hi,

I am looking for the open access chess magazines/journals. I came across only one such publication "SCHOLAR’S MATE". Please help me in finding more such free resources for learning the chess. I heard that in some countries there are chess textbooks, are they open access?

Thank you for your time. --Nirajrm (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2013 (UTC)