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April 3

False friend

I was looking at the false friend article, but it was probably false cognate I was thinking of. Anyway, the first paragraph of false friends says that they "are pairs of words or phrases in two languages or dialects (or letters in two alphabets)[1] that look or sound similar, but differ significantly in meaning." but the fourth paragraph says "There is often a partial overlap in meanings,". So which of the two statements is correct? Are the meanings between false friends completely different or similar? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The key is in the word 'often', which usually doesn't mean 'always', so both statements can be true. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 05:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I get what CBW is saying. The given definition that they "look or sound similar, but differ significantly in meaning" is rather absolute and straightforward. The second statement ("There is often a partial overlap in meanings") is inconsistent with the given definition of the term. If there is indeed "often a partial overlap in meanings", then they shouldn't be defined as words that "differ significantly in meaning".--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 07:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes that's what I was getting at. I think the first one should read "but may differ significantly in meaning." as examples in the article show shows similar and different. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The concept of "false friend" is that, because words in two languages are similar in form, learners of a language are tempted to use the foreign word the same way they would use its lookalike in their native language, when in fact the meanings are often different. Often there are usages with similar meanings in both languages, and often the meanings are related, which contributes to the feeling that the word is a "friend". An example from German is aktuell, usually meaning "current" or "up-to-date", meanings which can occasionally overlap with the English sense of actual but would not usually be translated with that English word. Another is Kontrolle, meaning "checkpoint" or "inspection to determine whether a person or thing complies with laws or regulations". This can sometimes be used where control would be used in English, such as "border control", but using it as if it were synonymous with English control would lead to confusion or misunderstanding. Marco polo (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The premise of the question is mistaken. Words can have a significant difference in meaning (so that, as Marco points out, one cannot accurately be used to translate the other) and still overlap partially in meaning. "Significant difference" does not imply "no common ground". -- Elphion (talk) 13:21, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Incidentally, French actuel is a false friend in the same way (the first example that came to my mind!). Likely German got it from French. —Tamfang (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Actualizado means "current, updated" in Spanish as well. μηδείς (talk) 23:33, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

In English, "actual" is from Latin via French, which uses it to mean "up to date", but it's not used that way in English very much.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Did a German create the article? --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 19:14, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

An example of a false friend that is also a false cognate would be Spanish sonrisa ('smile'), which I was sure was somehow the result of a borrowing from English under the logic that someone's smile is as beautiful as a sunrise. But no, it comes from Latin subrisa. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 02:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Another example is the Japanese word for 'letter' (as in one that you send), which is 手紙 (literally: hand paper), which in Chinese means 'toilet paper'. I once sent a letter to a Chinese friend, and started the letter (in Chinese) with 'Thank you for your letter' and she wrote back saying she didn't send me any toilet paper. True story. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 08:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Swedish translation

What would be a good translation into Swedish of "Me and Mrs Jones, we got a thing going on"? I want to avoid the twin pitfalls of "Mrs Jones and I are in a sexual relationship" and the "As to me and Jones-wife, there is owned an object, she move top-surface-ward" sort of thing that a machine translation would give. Could I also ask for a translation of "Is this a love thing, or is it just a sex thing"? To distil the questions, what's the best Swedish word or expression that captures this sense of "thing" in colloquial English? Tevildo (talk) 12:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

So basically you want a polite euphemism for a sexual relationship in Swedish, right ? StuRat (talk) 19:58, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Not so much "polite euphemism", more "non-obscene colloquial expression", but yes. Tevildo (talk) 20:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Tevildo: I would go for: "Me and Mrs Jones, we got a thing going on"? = Jag och Fru Jones, har ett (slags) förhållande. The "slags" (meaning "sort of") is optional. Adding it makes the word "förhållande" slightly ambiguous. Swedes tend to like putting small insignificant words into sentences, these makes it colloquial. and "Is this a love thing, or is it just a sex thing"? = Är det här kärlek eller bara sex?. The "thing" is implied in the words kärlek och sex. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 23:02, 5 April 2015 (UTC) (just happened to be in the neighborhood)

Thanks very much! Tevildo (talk) 17:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

German translation

Could someone please translate the following for me (from a PD source)? It seems to be written quite colloquially, which I assume is why Google is having trouble with it... Prioryman (talk) 19:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Man gebe sich über die Behauptung der ganzen Bocche überhaupt keiner Täuschung hin! Umgeben von einer wenig verlässlichen Bevölkerung, welche ungescheut nach Montenegro gravitirt, werden unsere Truppen in den Bocche von dem Augenblicke an, als russische Schiffe im adriatischen Golf erscheinen, auf die festen Plätze beschränkt sein und auf das Terrain, welches ihre Kanonen beherrschen.

"Make no mistakes about the control of the whole Bocche! Surrounded by an unreliable populace that unabashedly gravitates towards Montenegro, our forces in the Bocche will be restricted to the fortified places and to whatever areas are dominated by their own cannons, as soon as Russian ships will make their appearance in the Adriatic". (It's not really colloquial, but a bit archaic in places.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: I'm self-correcting one detail: "Behauptung" probably doesn't translate to "claim", as in most other contexts, but to "control", as in "maintaining military control" of something. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:54, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I was going to suggest "One shouldn't deceive oneself about the claim to control of the whole Bocche! Surrounded by an unreliable population that leans without intimidation toward Montenegro, our troops in the Bocche will be confined to fortified places and the area that their cannons control the moment Russian ships appear in the Adriatic Sea." "Bocche" here refers to the Bay of Kotor. Marco polo (talk) 20:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks very much, both of you. FYI, it's in relation to this place, which I risked life and limb exploring last Saturday... Prioryman (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Mylar, etc

Etymonline says of Mylar: "proper name for a polyester film, 1954, trademarked by E.I. Du Pont de Nemours and Co., Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A. Like many Du Pont names, it doesn't mean anything, they just liked the sound." I don't have access to oed.com right now, but remember that it says something similar if terser. Kevlar, another Du Pont trademark, gets similar comments, but (meaning aside) the overlap of their second syllables can hardly have been coincidental. Du Pont seems to like family resemblances in its trade names: consider nylon, rayon, orlon and dacron, the rime of whose second syllables is reminiscent of cotton. Does word-final "‑(l)ar" bring to mind anything older and relevant? -- Hoary (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Not older, but there is Tedlar. Alansplodge (talk) 00:37, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

As you suggested, the OED doesn't know either; they say " Origin uncertain: perhaps an arbitrary formation (perhaps compare earlier nylon). Compare later Kevlar". Dbfirs 06:48, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

April 4

Babies without ani

What is the scientific/medical term for being born without an anus? Khemehekis (talk) 05:09, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

What happened when you googled "anus birth defect"? μηδείς (talk) 06:01, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Imperforate anus. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 07:14, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for "imperforate anus"! And to answer Medeis' question, I didn't google "anus birth defect". Instead I googled the phrase "being born without an anus", and got several mentions and statistics, but no medical term. Then I looked at the Wikipedia article Anus, but found no section on abnormalities of the anus the way many other articles have such sections. Khemehekis (talk) 00:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, google doesn't do so well when you use words that are too common and unspecific, like "being without an". Imperforate anus came right up with "anus birth defect". μηδείς (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I have added "Imperforate anus" to the "See also" section of our "Anus" article. It is however, already linked in our Human anus article. Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Latin Question

I am just looking through a Latin book I bought years ago when I was doing Latin for A-Level, and one of the questions in it asks you to choose the correct word. It has answers at the back. The question is 'Copiam ..... potamus' and you are supposed to choose between 'aquae' and 'aqua'. The answer section says it chould be 'aquae'. I knew it couldn't be 'aqua', but why does 'copiam' not agree with the noun. Is 'copia' a noun, unlike in English 'copious', which is an adjective? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 12:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

"Copia" is a noun, and it takes the genitive, a "genitive of quantity". So we could translate it as "we drink copious water" or whatever, but grammatically in Latin it is "we drink a copious amount of water". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

The technical term is the partitive, which in latin is usually expressed with the genitive case. μηδείς (talk) 17:47, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Could be a reference mood, e.g. with respect to supplies or force. e.g. Ego pedem vulneratus sum. I am injured with respect to my foot . e.g. My foot is injured.--Jondel (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

That's an accusative construction though. This is definitely a partitive genitive. You see the same construction with numbers, usually. Latin grammar books like to divide the different cases into different subgroups...I'm not sure if they are ever really standard, or just the inventions of the authors. But there are things like "genitive of quantity", "ablative of means", etc etc. And my favourite, the "dative of disadvantage". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

your referring to the water/aquae as partive genitive, Adam? To Kage, it might help to translate as We drink a supply of water. Here supply/copiam is accusative. 'Of water/aquae' thus is genitive. --Jondel (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

"Times larger"

What does it mean when something is "X times larger" than something else? Are the dimensions both X times larger or merely just the area or volume of the dimension? In other words:

• Area A is three feet by three feet, totaling nine square feet. Area B is six feet by six feet, totaling thirty-six square feet.
• Area A is three feet by three feet, totaling nine square feet. Area B is nine feet by nine feet, totaling eighty-one square feet. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

In informal language "larger" could refer to dimensions, area, volume, weight, power consumption, any measure that makes sense. Also, "X times larger" is used to mean both "X times as large" and "X+1 times as large", although some people insist that only one of them is correct (See this discussion). If you want precision, you should avoid that expression altogether and say it another way, such as "It has 9 times the area". --65.95.176.148 (talk) 16:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree on "3 times larger", but note that "3 times as large" can't mean "4 times as large". StuRat (talk) 17:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• The expression is ambiguous, which is why I always say either twice as long or twice the weight. See cube-square law. μηδείς (talk) 23:29, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Per all of the above, the phrase is imprecise and ambiguous, and should be avoided in formal speech and writing. It is better to name the exact measurement being used, for example "The distance from X to Y is twice as long as the distance from A to B" or something like that. But just saying something is "X times larger" is bad. Don't even get me started on "X times smaller", which is one of those phrases that's like nails on a chalkboard annoying. --Jayron32 02:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

April 5

Motherfucker

Does the American word "motherfucker" have any direct translations in other languages (rather than compounded phrases to emulate the original)? 101.251.102.122 (talk) 12:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Dutch does have the translation "moederneuker", but it's hardly used except in youth language, and even there mostly for comic effect. - Lindert (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Mexicans say chinga tu madre: fuck your mom.--Jondel (talk) 13:38, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

"Nique ta mère" was not French. It didn't appear in French language before the early nineties, from the influence of the Arab immigration from North Africa. Akseli9 (talk) 20:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

In Korean, '니미씹할(ni-mi-ssip-hal)' has the exact meaning.Analphil (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese is a particularly rich source of 'mother' insults: Mandarin Chinese profanity#Mother.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 14:19, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

German 'Mutter Ficker'. I doubt the Oedipus Complex is unique to Americans. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 17:30, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

The thing about this particular word, though, is that its literal sense is almost entirely lost in actual usage. Indeed the actual usage is almost entirely non-sexual (except that the referent is usually male). I'm curious whether the Korean translation with "the exact meaning" has just the same literal meaning, or the same or similar usage as well. --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

In German, "Fick deine Mutter" (Fuck your mother) is common among rappers or elementary school children who pick up phrases like these very fast because the secondary Hauptschule is often located in the same building. But this is not close to "motherfucker". I doubt it's possible to transfer all connotations to another language. However, you can create the compound word "Mutterficker" (compound words are written as one word or with a hyphen, a rule more and more people tend to forget due to the influence of English), but the only situation where I can imagine it being used is literally talking about it. It would sound weird as an actual insult since it's a literal translation. --2.245.116.104 (talk) 23:26, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Russian yob tvoyu mat’, which may be roughly understood as "fuck your mother", though the subject here is obscure. It may have some variations (yeti, yebat’, or simply semi-euphemistic tvoyu mat’/mat’ tvoyu etc.) and is used as a general swear word. Some linguists consider "(let) a dog fuck your mother" being the original phrase. Not to mention it has parallels in other Slavic languages and goes back to pagan times (the Slavic cult of the Mother-Earth).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:40, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• It's well known that "mother" is only half a word. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:40, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Rhiwlas

How do you pronounce 'Rhiwlas', a village in Wales?Analphil (talk) 14:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Antur Enwau has "sound clips so that you can hear the correct pronunciation of the names" (Rhiwlas is about halfway down the page). Alansplodge (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Our Welsh orthography says that the "iw" diphthong is "not present in English except in the interjection Ew!; closest to 'i-oo' (short i)" and gives an IPA rendering of /ɪu/. Alansplodge (talk) 16:20, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Rewlas or Ri-uwlas would be a pretty accurate rendering. People are always confused by the w being a vowel. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 17:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

No, the "Rh" is a voiceless alveolar trill which is quite different from any sound in English. It is followed by something like the sound of the English word "you", and then "las".----Ehrenkater (talk) 17:40, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, like I said. My description would be the closest you get to it without going to those arcane IPA runes, which nobody gets anyway. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

And emphasis on the second syllable which has a short "a" and a hard "s" like "lass". If anybody DOES understand "those arcane IPA runes", perhaps we could add it to our Rhiwlas articles. Alansplodge (talk) 23:23, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

According to my non-native interpretation of Welsh phonology, it should be /r̥ɪulas/, although I don't know the stress myself. If LAS is stressed it's: /r̥ɪu'las/ μηδείς (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Clarification, Alansplodge, does your example "lass" have the same vowel as trap, or as bath in RP? μηδείς (talk) 06:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

"Lass" as in Lassie Come Home. Alansplodge (talk) 14:23, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

And notice that Medeis has used the lax /ɪ/ rather than the tense /i/ (and I agree). --ColinFine (talk) 19:24, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Speaking English and knowing Welsh pronunciation I would Anglicise it as /ˈriːʊləs/ or REE-uu-ləs.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:16, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Welsh phonology has the diphthong as /ɪu/, and Ljuboslov has also give a voiced, rather than unvoiced trill. There are differences between the northern and southern dialects, my analysis is based on the southern. μηδείς (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure about that, Luboslov. The most common English pronunciation I've heard for Rhiwbina is /ru'baɪnə/, as though the first syllable were written "roo". --ColinFine (talk) 19:24, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree. I tried to imitate Welsh pronunciation with the help of English phonology without inventing any new sounds to it. Many others who know little about Welsh (I believe 99% people outside of Wales) may pronounce Welsh names in any possible way. Some names may have established "wrong" English pronunciation as well. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• One might try saying "hree-oo lass" to get a decent approximation. The problem is that the diphthong and the voiceless r are "impossible" sounds in English. μηδείς (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Time taken to learn a language

The web page here gives estimates of the length of time it takes to learn various languages. The students to whom these figures apply are said to be almost 40 years old, and native speakers of English who have a good aptitude for formal language study, plus knowledge of several other foreign languages. They claim that such students can reach "General Professional Proficiency in Speaking and Reading" in most of the listed languages in anything from 23 to 44 weeks and 600 to 1100 hours of classroom study. To me, these numbers seem ridiculous. Can anyone (other than maybe some kind of language genius) learn a language to a standard of "professional proficiency" from scratch in that space of time? 86.152.160.58 (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the students in these courses are studying 25 hours a week in class with another 28-ish hours of “directed self-study”. This webpage, [2], has a table that estimates the time it takes to learn a language based on how much study per week. It says that 20 hours a week leads to proficiency in a category 1 language in 10 months, so imagine how quickly you can reach it by studying over 50 hours a week. Another website, [3], claims that language proficiency can be accomplished even faster through immersion in the culture and living among native speakers. [4] is another source that advocates for immersion based learning. This article goes into more depth, but basically is seems to be more effective to learn through experience than learning in a classroom. The numbers might seem low, the time frame does seem possible though, just remember that these students are basically treating learning the language as a full-time endeavor, not simply passing a class. Gpict201 (talk) 19:20, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• The assertion that Croatian, Hebrew, and Georgian are equally difficult to learn is absurd, as is the suggestion that Arabic is much more difficult than Hebrew. There's also the question of learning grammar and phonology, versus learning idiom and vocabulary. μηδείς (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

It really depends on the amount of dedication and focus that one puts into learning a new language. It can also just depend on the "aptitude" that a person has or if they have a knack for learning languages. According to this chart [5], the time that it takes to learn another language is dependent on your natural ability to comprehend and pick up another language. Those that are less "language inclined" take longer to learn another language than someone who is more "language inclined". It's like music almost, anyone can learn music with practice and dedication but some have a natural inclination which makes learning music and its concepts far easier. It is also dependent on the level in which you are learning. Are you trying to learn casual conversation or are you trying to learn the academic level of a language? There have also been articles that it takes around 3 to 5 years for ESL members to learn common English and 4 to 7 years for ESL members to attain an academic level of proficiency in English [6]. It can also be dependent on the age that the language learning begins. It's been proven time and time again that children pick up foreign languages easier [7] and that the time it takes for children to learn a new language is far less than that of an adult. The time it takes to learn a new language is dependent on so many things and the times are usually just base estimates but not necessarily too far off. B A England (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Russian educational standards of higher education state that students of departments of linguistics/translation must spend around 2200 Russian "academic hours" (45 min) to learn the first language and 1500 hours to learn the second during a 4-year "Bachelor of Linguistics" course (the second usually learnt from the 2nd years), at least 60% of the time is in auditorium with a teacher. Not to mention 1000-1500 hours of special disciplines (translation practice, general lingustics etc.). Bear in mind that the first language is usually learnt for 10 years at school (add around 1000 "hours") before entering university. So in sum the first language might be learnt up to 4000 "hours" for 14 years, while the second up to 2000 "hours" for 3 years. Though even after all that not every graduate knows languages very well, especially the second one. I know enough university teachers with degrees, who know well only their "main" language, knowledge of their other language(s) is somewhat shallow. But I also personally knew other teachers who taught at least 3 languages (one of them they taught themselves before teaching students). I think the raw number of hours is not the key, but rather method, personal skills and dedication, though the lowest number of 1500 hours (60 min) for advanced level is quite a good estimation. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:43, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

April 6

Is halbschwul cromulent German?

I used the term with a native German speaker in the 80's and it caused quite a bit of amused laughter. Is the word in actual usage, and if so, is it of recent origin? (PS, I looked here, but it doesn't seem authoritative.) Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, as with many compounds in German, it's the kind of cromulent word anyone can form, and many people have, but I wouldn't say it's received a huge amount of traction in any of its possible meanings (bisexual, lame, ...). One old(er) occurrence I spotted was in a 1970 poem titled "Rexona + HNO3 = Österreich" by Salzburger lyricist Hannes Stiegel; the word "halbschwul" occurs between "Mozart" and "Dorian Gray". ---Sluzzelin talk 11:41, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Germany word "halbschwul" means "half gay" or "semi homosexual"[8], assumed of meaning "bisexual",[9][10] also used for Mobbing (Bullying)[11], not listed in Duden. Appears to be a neologism, but has many hits in web search. In South west German dialect "Swabian" the word "half" also is used in an offending way for incomplete things in the meaning of worthless due not finished, usage would be used to emphasize offendings. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 01:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

How did French lose phonemic stress?

The French language seems to be the only major language in either its linguistic grouping or its geographical region not to use stress distinctively. That is, a French utterance may sound to an Anglophone as though the syllables are unequally stressed (usually, but not always, an Anglophone listener will report that the final syllable is stressed). However, this difference is not used to distinguish among meanings, and French speakers generally do not perceive stress as a category of spoken French at all.

How did that come about? Is it known when it happened? Say, did Old French have distinctive stress? --Trovatore (talk) 05:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Of the standard Romance languages, French has the most altered vowel system and the largest number of vowel phonemes. Before distinctive stress was lost, stress caused conditioned (contextual) sound changes based on various factors, one of which was stress: Phonological_history_of_French#Table_of_vowel_outcomes.

Once the new vowel sounds acquired distinctive phonemic status, rather than allophonic variant status, stress no longer bore the burden of making words distinct, since the new vowels took that role. Stress didn't disappear, it simply became predictable on all final syllables except those ending in schwa, and word initial for emphatic statements. Basically, stress evolved into vowel coloring. μηδείς (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, the "last syllable" claim is one I've heard, but it is at variance with my own perception of native-speaker utterances. For example, la Grande Arche de la Défense sounds to me as though stressed on Dé. I agree it's a good rule of thumb, though.

That's a detail, though, and thank you for the information and the link. --Trovatore (talk) 06:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I cannot definitely say how all Anglophones perceive French but it is a general knowledge of experimental phonetics, that French has distinctive phrasal stress. The French indeed raise their voice on stressed syllables. But speakers of languages like English or Russian raise their voice much more, so for them French may sound monotonous or "without stress".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

As for why and when it happened. I do not remember exact dates (I must check against books[12][13][14]), but it happened like this: Latin words had stress in penultimate or anti-penultimate syllables, Vulgar Latin inherited this feature but in the "Gallic region" post-stressed vowels became very weak and during the time they disappeared altogether. In some Gallo-Romance dialects (like Occitan), they still pronounce their final vowel (rose is /ˈrɔzə/ not /ʀoz/).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Thai question

I recently came across this text, apparently in Thai:

• Dee jai tee Santa Claus jak Finland masa nuk kab rao!
• Wow! Santa rong plaeng na ruk jung!

What does it mean? JIP | Talk 18:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I read the first line as:

• ดีใจที่ Santa Claus จาก Finland มาสนุกกับเรา -- "(I'm/We're) happy that Santa Clause left Finland to come have fun with us".

In the second line, without context or being familiar with the original writer's transliteration idiosyncrasies, it's hard to say what "rong plaeng" could be. The first (and most obvious) thing that comes to mind would be ร้องเพลง ("to sing"), but I would expect something like rong phleng. However if that's the case, then it would appear to read:

• Wow! Santa ร้องเพลงน่ารักยัง! -- "Wow! Santa still sings lovely!" (again hard to tell without context but probably meant either sarcasticly or playfully).--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 21:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Abbreviation minefield

Why are "Pakis" and "Japs" considered racist abbreviations but "Brits", "Yanks", or "Aussies" isn't? NoWordOfALie (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Because ethnic slurs aren't always logical. What matters is often the intent. The word "Jap" was often used to denigrate Japanese people, and so it is offensive to many people. Our article shows some cases where it is intended to be used neutrally. Same goes for Paki - it is used a pejorative in a way that "Aussie" usually isn't. Also note that many Australians call themselves "Aussies", but Japanese people do not call themselves "Japs" - It's generally polite and acceptable to call people what they call themselves, but again, it's not always logical, and only very few (if any) people can use the n-word without it seeming a slur or insult. You may be interested in reading Nigger#Intragroup_versus_intergroup_usage and the different article and word "Nigga". This should help give you an idea of the subtleties involved in determining when words are offensive. Sadly, Word_taboo is a pitiful stub, and not very helpful.

More generally, have a look at List_of_ethnic_slurs - many are a bit confusing if you are unfamiliar with them, and wouldn't necessarily seem offensive unless you knew the history and context. For instance, if a Brit called me a "seppo" - I may not understand that it was intended as a slur against Americans, but I might be able to get the idea if it was said in a nasty tone, in the middle of an otherwise rude or derogatory sentence. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

N.b. Yank isn't totally safe either, it can be used as a pejorative term, even though many people may call themselves or their sports teams that. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's actually how it started, as a British slur against the American colonial rebels. We wore it like a badge of honor and still do, at least in an international context (not so much within the southern U.S. though). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

In the UK yank is pretty much exclusively derogatory. Of course can also be expanded to the classic 'septic' 82.21.7.184 (talk) 22:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Septic = septic tank = rhyming slang for Yank. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's kinda shitty... --Jayron32 01:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't even want to get into the kind of rhyming slang one could invent for "Brit". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Only try to learn British rhyming slang if you have years to spare, Baseball Bugs. It's a whole new language, and there are different types. It's constantly evolving, and we have our own version here in Liverpool. Cockney is the most famous one, but different areas have their own. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 04:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Some people will read racism into any abbreviation - even the alphanumeric sequence H982FKL Top Gear controversies#Cultural mockery. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 10:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Get off my lawn

Is there a specific word in any language for the metamorphosis of "boy who played on the old mans lawn" into old man who shouts "get off my lawn!" at kids? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.217.195.88 (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Not a single word, but the phrase "circle of life" comes to mind. Also, if you want to get philosophical/metaphysical, then maybe the "eternal return".--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 00:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what you're asking but The old man told the boy to get off his lawn is indirect speech, while The old man told the boy, "get off my lawn" is direct speech. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that they used any particular word to describe it, but a supernatural twist on this idea was the core of Spur of the Moment (The Twilight Zone). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

And more directly to the point is the song Cat's in the Cradle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The phrase that comes to mind is "I've turned into my mother !". StuRat (talk) 02:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the word is called "aging". We even have an article on it. Bus stop (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I've asked this before, but do kids actually play on other people's lawns in America? Here in the UK, we have walls to mark our territory and to keep dogs out. The Americans put a man on the moon, but can't build a wall to keep kids off their lawns? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 04:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Fencing off the front yard may be against zoning regulations depending on the locality, depending on a "friendly neighborhood" zoning policy. Some people are cranks, and were generally unliked by the other adults as well as children. (They got their doorbells rung.) For hide-and-seek we'd use the yards of about 45 houses in a 6 X 10 house area. The adults knew what we were up to, and didn't mind. At a certain threshold, most people fenced in their back yards, as they only had to fence one or two sides, once their neighbors had put up fences, but it wasn't out of disdain for the children. In any case, if you were on talking terms, even with old folks, you might still jump their fences. Also, the mail carriers do not use the sidewalk, they walk directly from front-door to front-door across the line. See Line of 1763. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Our postmen/women have recently been randomly delivering letters to random addresses, because apparently being able to read is not a prerequisite for working for the postal service, so everyone in the four streets of my village is going out every morning to deliver the letters themselves. We have sent letters to the postal service to complain, but, of course, nothing has changed (maybe they can't read). Usually, they put their bikes (they use the pavement) at the side of one house's wall, then 'deliver', then come back and get the bike and cycle off. This is a security issue, because you could, theoretically, steal the bike and all the letters in it, because they don't lock them. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 05:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

For how long are they away from the bike? If they're just leaning the bike against the wall, walking up the sidewalk to the house, dropping off the mail, and returning, it doesn't sound like they're gone for more than 10-15 seconds. (I'm assuming that from wall to door is no more than 10-20 ft.) Locking the bike every time seems like a lot of effort to go through for such a small window of opportunity for thieves. Dismas|^(talk) 05:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Dismas, they would be olympic winners if they can drop off letters to 80 houses in four different streets each in 10 - 15 seconds. It takes them about 20 minutes. There are four cul-de-sacs in my particular area, so they park the bike outside our house, then deliver to all the rest. I think they do that because they know our house has CCTV cameras. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 07:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I misunderstood. I thought they were biking to each house. Not parking and walking to each house. Dismas|^(talk) 08:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You'll see this on a few episodes of Keeping up Appearances, with the mailman biking away if he sees Hyacinth standing in the front of the house. μηδείς (talk) 17:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It's a common thing, yes. Many backyards (I guess you might call these 'back gardens') are fenced in for privacy or keeping the family dog from running around the neighborhood. But the front yards normally aren't. If there are several children in a neighborhood, they may run across the front yard of a home with no children to reach their friend's house on the other side. Also, as mentioned, games can be played across many yards. Dismas|^(talk) 05:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Hypocrisy" might be another word for this sort of thing, although the large gap in time may whittle away any traction that word might have in the described instance, and this would be a highly subjective interpretation of what has occurred over the course of a lifetime, and of course synonyms abound for "hypocrisy". Bus stop (talk) 10:25, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

When I was in Australia, in the suburbs there were no pavements and fences, just beautiful grass. That wasn't universal, because in the older streets (where I lived) there would be a garden gate with a mailbox beside it. I don't think anyone locked their mailboxes, and the postie didn't have to sneak through gaps in the fences to get from one front door to another like he does here. The sheep farmer would have a long daily trek to the mailbox on the boundary of his property and like as not when he got there it would be empty. The population has doubled since I was there so maybe it's all different now. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 11:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Where were you, exactly? It doesn't sound like a typical Australian town. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Even though New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the union, there are many more rural areas where there are no sidewalks, just lawns that come up to the tarmac roads. Sidewalks are mostly for public safety, to keep pedestrians off the lawn (which may be uneven) and off the roads with car traffic. At some point the town I grew up in started requiring the home builder to provide a sidewalk and the homeowner to maintain it (not shoveling it free from snowfall immediately after the storm ends is grounds for a fine) and repairing cracks, etc. Older parts of the town lack sidewalks, and are only required to install them if there is major reconstruction. The further you get into the NJ Pine Barrens the less likely you are to see sidewalks, (or people who own shoes). μηδείς (talk) 01:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

We do have an article, get off my lawn - doesn't really answer the question, but it does have info that might help people unfamiliar with the phrase. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

At Wikipedia we use an acronym. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Jack, it's like being out in the country here - there are no made - up pavements (and probably no street lights). You just walk along the grass verge. That was how, on the border between Spain and Portugal, you could tell which was which. The Portuguese municipality would have clean streets and no lights, the Spanish one would have lights and fly - blown streets. I see you live in a densely - populated part of the country, which might explain things. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 09:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I always thought that Portugal is a little more densely populated than Spain. Probably the reason is well-known Portuguese and Spanish mentality difference. The Portuguese, in spite of being Mediterranean, are more "introvert" like Northern Europeans.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In England, we have Git orf moi land which is allegedly how visitors to the countryside are advised that they have strayed from a public footpath. Alansplodge (talk) 18:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

April 7

Un-genericized words

A proper noun that gets turned into a common noun (e.g. escalator, thermos) is said to be genericized. Is there a term for words that have become so identified with a proper thing that they can no longer be realistically used in their common form? (Such as Holocaust or Titanic.)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

What I find interesting are words which go the other way - i.e. they can no longer be used in their original sense. For example, "tabloid" was originally a proprietary medicine but it's now a description of the format of a newspaper. The Nazi extermination of the Jews only became identified with the word "holocaust" many decades after the event. The word retains its other uses, as does the word "titanic". 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Many" decades being about TWO, in the case of the Holocaust. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, because the word "genocide" was only invented after the Holocaust: its inventor thought that a new term was needed to describe hitherto unnamed phenomenon of the deliberate attempted extermination of an entire race/people, and defined it with the examples of the Nazi's attempt re the Jews and the earlier Turkish massacres of the Armenians. Some use the non-existence of the word at the time to argue that the latter was not genocide, as if a thing can't exist before it has been distinctively named. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Tabloid" comes from "tablet", which originally meant something you write upon.[15] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

In Finnish, mokkula used to be a generic term for a black-box component that just does something and no one cares how. But then the ISP "DNA" launched a USB Internet adapter called "DNA Mokkula" with an aggressive advertisement campaign, and now when Finns hear the word mokkula, they think of the USB Internet adapter, nothing else. JIP | Talk 17:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

But I contend that if today someone described a large fire as a "holocaust" they would be accused of being insensitive. And something large described as "titanic" (as opposed to, say, "gigantic") would be presumed to be doomed to disaster.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Titanic (magazine), the Titanic Brewery, Titanic, Saskatchewan and Titanic, Oklahoma are all apparently doing OK. "Titanic struggle" is an oft-encountered cliché in contexts that have nothing to do with deep water, ships or icebergs. Mostly sport, in my experience. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

"PC" seems to have taken this route. It originally meant any personal computer. Then IBM called their version the "IBM PC", and since then people want to use "PC" to exclude other personal computers, such as a Mac. StuRat (talk) 06:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Nicolas Malebranche

Has the surname of the French philosopher Nicolas Malebranche some Italian roots?--Carnby (talk) 17:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Malebranche means "evil claws" in Italian and is the name of demons in Dante's Divine Comedy. This [site gives a little info, suggesting it was a French name with many variants (none of which seems likely). It could also belong to one of the Langue d'oc dialects. Or it might be the result of an ancestor changing the spelling to something more learned. During the renaissance, learned people sometimes adopted a Latinised, or Greek form. Melancthon is a Greek calque of The German Schwarzerd. Likewise, Copernicus's name was a change from the Polish Kopernik. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Define the accent

I heard such a lovely accent many times, this particular guy seems to come from Bristol or the vicinity.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:40, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It's definitely not a Bristol accent: it sounds like Cockney to me. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Essex. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 18:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Right, I also thought that he came to Bristol from somewhere else, as I happened to hear Bristolian. But I have to admit I have some difficulty with differentiating English dialects (except of "North vs South" thing), one must live in England for a long time and/or travel there, I suppose, and I never did. :) How good scientific descriptions of dialects might be but they are of little use when you meet dialects in the wild. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Similarly impaired, dear Любослов, I onced asked for some pointers here: link to thread from 2008. Cannot claim I've become an expert, but it was a great starting point! ---Sluzzelin talk 10:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You've just refreshed my memory. I now remember there is a couple of dialect databases[16][17] (I believe they existed in 2008 as I ran into them around that time).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Lüboslóv Yęzýkin I have just texted him, and he says he grew up in Essex, but has lived in Somerset for 25 years. hope this helps. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Dispute re use of "had grossed" vs "has grossed" in film articles.

If anyone with a mastery of English grammar can weigh in here, it would be appreciated.

The issue is about whether to use "had grossed" or "has grossed" to describe ephemeral, evolving information in film articles, which we typically see in new releases formatted this way: "As of April 2, 2015, the film has grossed $100 million" vs "As of April 2, 2015 the film had grossed $100 million". I'd previously brought this up at the Ref Desk and though that I'd gotten a clear answer amid the many Yahoo! Answers responses, but the matter is still under debate. Learned comments would be appreciated at the open discussion. (I don't mind being wrong, but the Yahoo! Answers are driving me nuts!) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it a function of how contemporaneous the report is? If you're writing on April 2 about receipts to April 2, use the present tense. If you're writing later, use the past tense. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Using "had grossed" is the right way to do it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The form has grossed implies "as of this moment" or "from the past until now". If you mean "as of a past moment" (such as April 2) or "from the far past until a point in the more recent past", you want had grossed. Marco polo (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Pluperfect. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I know it's probably not typically done this way, but if any of you could comment at the discussion, that would be ideal. I never learned all the fancy verb form names in school so when Medeis says "Pluperfect", I have no frame of reference. I know what I think sounds correct to my experienced ear, though many times I'm wrong. The issue I am having with it, is that by virtue of saying "as of moment X", that moment expires and is in the past and should be written phrased in the past, even if we're talking about something that happened today. An example I presented in the discussion had to do with ISIS. "As of December 31, 2014, ISIS has killed 3,000 people" doesn't make sense to me for inclusion in an encyclopedia, even if today were December 31, 2014. Anyhow, I'm rambling. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Try it this way. Check out this diagram:

Past............................................Present...............................................Future
  A                    B                           C

If you are comparing events at time A to time B, you would use "had grossed". If you are comparing time A to time C, you use "has grossed". So "As of 2010, the movie had grossed..." but "As of today, the movie has grossed..." I hope that helps. --Jayron32 19:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that any current date remains current for a maximum of 24 hours, the future arrives all too soon and that which you've just written about is no longer current information. It may be the latest available information, but it's still not current. The context is an encyclopedia article, which is not like a newspaper article, which is written as if it's being read on the day it's published (even though everyone knows old papers can still be accessed long after they're published). Encyclopedia articles are meant to be read by the readers of the future just as much as by the readers of today, and are written accordingly (this remains true even in cases like Wikipedia, which are being updated continuously; which is why it is never OK to refer to something happening "recently" around here). I'm reading this on 8 April, and for all I know the movie may have grossed another $20 million since 2 April. That is is why it must be "had grossed" as at 2 April. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:41, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese language help regarding the GPS shift problem in China

I've just created Restrictions on geographic data in China but I don't understand any Chinese, and have relied on the very few English sources, combined with a fair amount of Google Translation. Could some Chinese speaking editors review that article? Is there a better place to ask for help? Thank you, Dandv^{(talk|contribs)} 21:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC).

See Wikipedia:Translators available.—Wavelength (talk) 21:30, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Which Chinese sources did you use? It's pretty hard to say whether Google Translate gave you the right meaning without seeing the original sources. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

April 8

What Japanese dialect is this?

In the anime TV series Nisekoi, one particular character, Marika Tachibana, will speak with a non-standard Japanese accent when she is flustered (a sample of this can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKKNb2HxXOk). However, sources seem to present conflicting information as to which dialect this is, with some sources saying it is a Kyushu dialect (a southern Japanese island) while other sources saying it is a Kansai dialect (Osaka and surrounding areas). Can someone shed some light on which dialect this actually is? 98.116.73.98 (talk) 05:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The Japanese article says it's a Kyushu dialect. I'm not great with dialects but it doesn't sound like a Kansai dialect to me. I suspect the people calling it Kansai are thinking Kansai=western. -- BenRG (talk) 08:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like Hiroshima dialect, to me, which is very similar to Kyushu dialect. Hiroshima and Kyushu are even further west that the Kansai region of Osaka, Kyoto, and Kobe. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Palmistry

Hello friends,

View this link please , 1st paragraph, I don't understand/can't differentiate the three catagories. View this link also , you'll get the idea...

Can someone please fill the followings for me

Chiromency:

Chirognomy:

Dermatoglyphics:

Regards.

(Mr. Prophet (talk) 11:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC))

References

Learn Spanish

Hi, I wish to learn Spanish. Can anyone suggest some good websites that teaches Spanish for free? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 991joseph (talk • contribs) 13:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Try www.sharedtalk.com - it's a website that allows you to interact with native speakers and other learners. It's a chat site, but not the usual stuff that you get on the internet about sex and all that nonsense, it's actually for people who are interested in learning and in helping others learn. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 13:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Have a look at Duolingo, when you've learned Spanish, according to the site, you can learn 'Irish' - whatever that means, probably Irish Gaelic. Richard Avery (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Irish language#Names --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 02:43, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I enjoyed Destinos. http://www.learner.org/series/destinos/ --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 02:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Portuguese lyrics

Hello, I came across this video and really like this song which starts at 26:50. It's in Portugese but unfortunatelly I don't understand a word of it's lyrics. I'd be very grateful if anyone could help me identify the song or at least write some parts of it's lyrics. Thank you in advance. :) Atacamadesert12 (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's a classic of brazilian music: País Tropical, by Jorge Ben Jor, 1969. There are many covers.Cfmarenostrum (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It's followed by Fio Maravilha (or "Filho Maravilha") and Taj Mahal from the same composer. I used to have a medley of these 3 songs on some compilation ages ago.Cfmarenostrum (talk) 20:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much, you made my day! :) Atacamadesert12 (talk) 06:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

seventh heaven

When was the term "seventh heaven" first used in the English language? What is its meaning?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

See Seven Heavens. The concept is older than the English language; the earliest mention, I think, is in the Ascension of Isaiah. According to ancient Jewish legend, there are seven heavens, and the seventh is the highest and most glorious, the closest to God. Figuratively, someone is said to be "in the seventh heaven" if he/she is exceedingly happy. - Lindert (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Basically equivalent to "hog heaven". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

learning

What's the best way to learn weird languages that don't follow normal grammar rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PlumpPumpking (talk • contribs) 19:00, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

All languages have grammar - and what appears 'weird' will depend on previous experience. If you specify the language in question, and languages you already know, we may be able to provide a better answer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

If you are only at the point where you think that 'normal grammar rules' only exist in English, I would suggest you go to a library, or get on the internet, and try to find out how all languages - as said above - have their own grammar rules. You can even use Wikipedia to do that, after all, we are an encyclopaedia. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 20:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Eats, Shoots & Leaves

Can you give me of an example of a phrase like "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" in a non-English language that has the same kind of multiple interpretations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.84.26.87 (talk) 19:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It would likely have to consist of words that have double meanings. That's easy to do in English, being such a hodge-podge, but maybe not so easy in more homogeneous languages. There can be puns in other languages, though. Such as Mazorca vs. mas horca under Juan Manuel de Rosas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

There's a short story sometimes used in Spanish classes about a will that is lacking in punctuation: El Testamento de don Facundo. --Amble (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Amble's link is laugh out loud good, but it doesn't have an English translation. μηδείς (talk) 01:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is someone's Master's Degree Thesis on this very topic, it has cites to a wealth of literature covering the topic in both English and in other languages. It's a solid start for your research. --Jayron32 01:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Japanese "must" or "have to"

Hi, I'm trying to learn how to say must in Japanese. I think I understand how to say it, I just need a check over it.

So, to say for example, [I] must buy [it], any of these would be correct:

買う:

• 買わなくてはだめ
• 買わなくてはいけない
• 買わなくてはならない
• -
• 買わないとだめ
• 買わないといけない
• 買わないとならない
• -
• 買わなければだめ
• 買わなければいけない
• 買わなければならない
• -
• 買わなくちゃ
• 買わなきゃ
• 買わないと

If I want the past tense, I change いけない to いけなかった, ならない to ならなかった, and add だった to the remaining ones?

And if I want the polite versions I change いけない to　いけません, ならない to なりません, and add です to the remaining ones?

Have I got any of this right? 2A02:8084:9300:A80:A058:5739:BD1E:B1E5 (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's basically all correct. Any combination of ～なくては = ～なくちゃ, ～なければ = ～なきゃ, or ～ないと with だめ, いけない, ならない or nothing is okay; that's 20 combinations of which you listed only 12. I was going to say that there are no past or polite forms of your last group (the "nothing" option), but I just searched the web for "買わなきゃだった" and friends and found examples of all of them, so never mind. If you actually want to use these in conversation, I'd stick to ～なくては or ～なければ plus (forms of) いけない or ならない. -- BenRG (talk) 22:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's great to hear. Thanks. 2A02:8084:9300:A80:A058:5739:BD1E:B1E5 (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Strange things among English irregular verbs (2nd part)

Good morning or good evening everybody. Recently I asked a strange question using a copy of a book; unfortunately the image was removed for strange ideas about copyright. My question was here:[18].

Now I'm nearly sure that the verbs in bold letters are more important, more frequently used than the others. Somebody made the remark:"Unfortunately, it is impossible for us, both native or not, to confirm whether your insight is correct or not. Is it possible to reload the scan to a third-party image hosting and give a link?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)".

Because of this bug with the copyright, or I'd better say, thanks to it, I created a Facebook account and inserted the "forbidden" copy that you can see here: [19]

The real question under the picture should be:"I'd like to know if the verbs in BOLD letters are more frequently used than the other ones". Thank you all from Reims, the capital city of Champagne in France.Cheers.--Jojodesbatignoles (talk) 20:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Some of the links listed at wikt:Wiktionary:Frequency lists might be helpful.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I do not think that the boldfaced verbs are necessarily more frequently used than the others. For example, I don't think burn or hide are in more frequent use than feed or hang. All of the verbs on your page, except maybe breed and broadcast are in very frequent use, and even breed and broadcast are what I would call common words. I notice that your page omits some of the more obscure irregular verbs, such as bid or dare. I would say that for proficiency in English, you need to learn all of the verbs in this list. Marco polo (talk) 21:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Dare? Surely that has become a regular weak verb in Standard English these days. Wiktionary labels durst archaic. Deor (talk) 21:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese names pronounced in Japanese

What I've already found out is that there is the On-reading of Kanji in Japanese written in hiragana and a modern way closer to today's Chinese pronunciation written in katakana. My question is about the latter method. Since it's based on pronunciation instead of characters, can you say that any pinyin syllable can be given in katakana (not necessarily vice versa because I know -ng becomes reduced to -n) with some sort of structure? Is there a guide for it? It seems ー is often used whereas there is no vowel length distinction in Chinese. --2.245.140.128 (talk) 23:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

April 9

Easy on the outside

What is a word or phrase that explains the phenomenon of when an activity superficially appears to be simple but in reality is complex. Hack (talk) 04:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

"A minute to learn, a lifetime to master". StuRat (talk) 04:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

"More complex than it would (at first) appear". StuRat (talk) 04:16, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The phrase "deceptively simple" seems to capture this fairly well.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

"Deceptively simple" seems a bit ambiguous. Hack (talk) 05:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)