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Include large RCT as primary research in text (RFC)
We have a discussion whether a large clinical trial should be mentioned in the flavan-3-ol text, even though it is primary research. Any comments to reach a consensus would be appreciated. There is no dispute whether the study is primary research - it is whether it meets the criteria specified in WP:MEDPRI to permit inclusion.
A 2021 meta-analysis included five studies of people with anxiety disorders. All five studies were funded by the manufacturers of the lavender oil capsule used, four of them were conducted by one author of the meta-analysis,[13] and blinding was not clear.[14] In this analysis, an oral 80 mg dose of lavender oil per day was associated with reduced anxiety scores on the Hamilton Anxiety Rating Scale.[13] Due to the limitations of these studies, the effectiveness of using oral lavender oil for treating anxiety remains undetermined.[11]
Where [13] is reference to (von Känel, 2021), [14] is (Generoso, 2017), and [11] is (NCCIH info page, 2020)
Explanation of this wording choice by its author[1]
Discussion of content provided that does not exist in cited sources
Hello, in the article BMW G 310 R, we are discussing the possible use of original research. The editor who added it states that information not found in a source, is true because it isn't found in a source. I'm pretty new so I may be wrong but I believe this is original research based on Wikipedia's core content policy. The discussion can be found here and additional expert input would be appreciated. Talk:BMW G 310 R#Not Feature Lists containing original research. A third opinion was obtained and they are in agreement that it is original research but the original poster is adamant it is not. Advice would be appreciated if this is original research.
Written Arguments Section in Supriyo v. Union of India
The written arguments are used by parties involved in the case, such as petitioners, respondents and intervenors. I believe, for this content, Primary Sources would be best sources as mentioned in Wikipedia:PRIMARYNOTBAD. As the intention of the section is to present the claims made by each party in the Court. Secondary sources, at the best case could misquote or make mistakes, and at worst case, they are influenced by their own opinion. The is secondary sources are included in the Reaction and Commentary section of the same Article.
Genetic Studies On Jews Edit Warring
Hello,
I hate to have to reach out but I added a controversy section to this article including citations from the Human Genome Project, American Society of Human Genetics, the World Health Organization etc which someone keeps reverting. Maybe my wording in the section is not the best but the section is well cited from trusted agencies in genetics and they factually discredit the article on a whole.
The rest of the article outside this section I added after seeing several other attempts by others in the talk to do the same is based on Original Research. I requested more than once that the reverter quote me the verification methodology used in the studies they are defending and they have never been able to. They cannot because it isn't in their citations. Each one was based on self-reported unverified data sets collected by a subjective source. Which is why the HGP and others discredited as antisemitism or more broadly bigotry while the Holocaust Musuems of Canada, the USA, and the State of Israel all literally defined it as Nazism. All of this was cited and I'm trying in good faith here. I created a talk section to hash it out which they ignored the first few reverts. I offered to let them re-write it with the same sources. I offered for them to add supporting documents to the controversy section since they felt it wasn't balanced.
Moreover Dr. Raphael Falk is misrepresented in the article. His paper "Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent" got cited several times as supporting documentation for stuff not at all discussed in the paper or stuff the paper was discrediting not supporting. It was a gross misuse of Dr. Raphael Falk's work and most of this article is based on misappropriating this as well as other papers to create the desired article instead of accurately reporting what is in the citations.
Hey I am trying here. I don't like this article. To me it is very much neo-nazi propaganda, and that is cited, but I am trying to in good faith do the right thing so all I wanted to do was add a section which deals with the controversial nature of this topic. If someone else needs to step in and write that section for me then by all means but as it stands currently outside the controversy section that keeps getting reverted so that it is no longer there is the only section which accurately represents the citations used.
"But how did they sample them? What were the criteria for Jewishness of the sampled individuals?", is a quote from Dr. Falk's paper and is the same exact question I have been asking in the Talk. What was the verification methodology used in the studies supporting the claims of the article which authenticated test subjects as Jewish? There is none and no one is even trying to answer that.
You asked "What was the verification methodology used in the studies supporting the claims of the article which authenticated test subjects as Jewish? There is none and no one is even trying to answer that." Answer: The criteria for verification of the eligibility of people for the study The Maternal Genetic Lineages of Ashkenazic Jews is stated on page 14: 'The phrase “full Ashkenazi” refers to individuals with genetic and genealogical indications of having sixteen Ashkenazic great-great-grandparents, who most often score 99–100 percent Ashkenazi Jewish at Family Tree DNA, 23andMe, and AncestryDNA.' A combination of family trees and documentation in support of them with genetic admixture signals, and more rigorous than the typical study that sought people who say they have four grandparents, a less rigorous method which had occasionally led to several samples being discovered to be outliers because of an unexpected non-Jewish ancestor a generation or two before that. As the geneticist Harry Ostrer has said, Ashkenazi Jews are a legitimate ethnic group, not merely a religion that you called Ashkenazi Judaism.172.56.217.228 (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
are "common sense" links allowed?
is finding a wp:reliable source that states a general truth enough to be narrowed down and used in articles or is it wp:synth?
example:
a homeless person has frequently been arrested for trespassing and loitering.
he lived in a place where trespassing and loitering is illegal.
Read wp:blp, and specifically wp:crime, we can't accuse someone of having committed a crime, we have to have wp:rs making the accusation. Also if it does not name them by name, how do we know it is them who have been arrested, and not some other homeless person? Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the sake of the example, there are RS that clarify the arrest record and there is significant consensus to keep arrest record in the article, despite whatever policies it might violate.
We know for a fact the subject has been arrested for the crimes, what doesn't mention them by name is the source which asserts that the crimes they were arrested for are part of the criminalisation of homelessness.
so rather than "loitering and trespass" it would be "loitering and trespass", as having individual links obscures what is actually going on and is not otherwise neutral.
the main question is if this linking constitutes original research because there is no RS cited that connects the general truth to the specific truth, aka, this specific homeless person. Bart Terpstra (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't check all the links, but I feel confident in saying the context here is the Killing of Jordan Neely (I didn't see that anywhere in this section). And I think Bart Terpstra asks a valid question in good faith. The idea is to contextualize the crimes of the deceased, rather than imply other crimes. As such, while it is certainly a WP:BLP issue, for me, it gets past that bar. It's true, relevant to the person, and does not cast them in a bad light that doesn't already exist. Where I have my qualms is to whether or not this is WP:DUE here. If the link is not made in secondary sources, it's likely not that important for us. While homelessness is certainly an issue in the context of the article, the reliable sources to my eyes sort of give the deceased's criminal record as background, and really neither use it nor investigate all that substantively. Because of all that, I think this sort of connection would be allowable under BLP, but is probably best left out. Then again, I tend to err on the "less is more" side of articles, so take that into account. As ever, should consensus go a different way, I will happily abide. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would understand a rejection on those grounds and work with that, but i made this post because I wanted to know if this edit violates wp:synth, as it is representative of a way of reasoning about facts i think is valid, but has been flagged as synth by some, but not all editors.
My reason for saying it does is that he had a long criminal past, and those arrests may well have been things nonhomeless people would have been arrested for as well. As such (I think) it is OR designed to try and claim he was a victim of persecution for being homeless. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
just because others are convicted for crimes with the same name in different contexts does not undermine the overwhelming likelihood that a homeless person is arrested on these charges for being homeless.
where A is a property, B is a category and C are the qualifications for the category.
e.g.
in all cases, people who are killed, die.
now, there is an article where a general statement applies.
there is a reliable source that offer verifiability for the claim.
is it original research or synth to narrow the general statement to the subject at hand?
hypothetical example:
Country A demands Country B to be Muslim, or it will continue sanctions.
Country A does business and allies with non-Muslim countries that are otherwise the same as country B.
there is a prevailing opinion this policy is hypocritical.
there is a reliable source that states "Country A's demand on other countries to be Muslim is hypocritical because [see previous]"
is it wp:synth or wp:undue to add this to a page that mentions Country A's reasoning for the sanctions?
does it matter that the source did not explicitly mention country B?
This basically echoes my arguments from above, but I can't really hide my amusement that we are essentially debating the classic syllogism and perhaps its most famous example: All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. Now, as a form of logic, it is basically unimpeachable. For Wikipedia purposes, I would personally not call it synth for one particular reason: in all cases I can imagine, the final proposition would be stated in the article about the general class of things discussed. Thus, if I take the conclusion that all men are mortal from a hypothetical source, and the fact that Socrates is a man from another, my conclusion (Socrates is mortal) is explicitly stated in the first source, just not explicitly applied to Socrates. So, not synth, but as above, for me, I also have a hard time imagining a situation in which the conclusion not explicitly connected with the subject is WP:DUE for inclusion. If it were a relevant factor, one would imagine it would make it into sources about the subject at hand. That said, anything is possible and I certainly can't imagine all possibilities.
The problem with the premise is the relation where "A applies to B in all cases". Those statements may be fine in formal science, may be used with case in natural science, and are almost always misleading in social science. In social sciences, A may "always" apply to B but not in a boolean manner, and rather with shades of grey. Even more, "cause -> consequence" may not always work as intended, not the way it works other fields (such as in "liquid water reaches 100º" -> "liquid water becames vapor water"). We may have a given situation where a predicted consequence should be a clear and almost logical thing to happen, but for whatever reason that thing did not happen. Such as in your example: someone may do something that should clearly tarnish his reputation, but somehow his reputation can be still intact. Cambalachero (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have a source that says all cats have 4 legs and a tail and are furry. I have a source that says dogs have 4 legs a tail and a furry. Does the second source say dogs are cats? Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this is blatantly a different example. this is "A is B AND C is B therefore A is B", which a completely different proposition than the question. Bart Terpstra (talk) 16:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this is the strong version of the argument, so the facts are absolute.
in social sciences, if someone says "A is always B", then at the very least it is true that "according to X all members of A are always B".
I am in a dispute with someone who purports to be the father of professional footballer Ryan Trevitt, who persistently makes unsourced original edits (ie. original research) to the player's page. I have reverted them, but rather than get into an edit war, I thought I would bring it here. I've talked with him about on his talk page, but he is ignoring. He thinks that because he's the player's father, that he constitutes a reliable source. Beatpoet (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a talk page section there, so I figure I may as well say the same thing here: this map seems very bad to me.
Map showing a traditional estimation of World regions in Global North–South grouping. Red countries in this map are grouped as "Global South", blue countries as "Global North".
The map shown to the right here was in the lead of this article until today. I was looking at it and scratching my head, when I looked at the actual source on Commons, which was... nothing. It was copied from a different map (in PNG form), whose description page just said it was copied from an en-wikipedia map which no longer exists(?).
I removed it yesterday, and someone tracked down a citation and put it back in (for the record, it is Chen, Bin; Wu, Shengbiao; Song, Yimeng; Webster, Chris; Xu, Bing; Gong, Peng (8 August 2022). "Contrasting inequality in human exposure to greenspace between cities of Global North and Global South". Nature Communications. 13. doi:10.1038/s41467-022-32258-4.). Looking through the actual paper, though, there are a couple issues. First of all, it is not identical to our map: it puts French Guiana, Bosnia, South Korea, Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong and Taiwan in the South, whereas ours puts them in the North. But even apart from that, the paper does not give any citation for where it got the map or the classification of countries. They just say this: Global North cities (e.g., US, European, and Australian cities) have higher greenspace exposure (mean: 45.84%) than Global South cities (mean: 14.39%) (e.g., China, India, and the Middle East). That is, they are not making any claims about Israel or the UAE or Bosnia or Singapore or whatever. But possibly the most concerning issue is that, alongside the lack of a citation for the boundaries they draw, the shading is completely identical to that of our own map: it seems quite likely that they got the image from Commons (and modified it to fit the claims in their paper, which would make it a circular reference, and completely unacceptable.
Overall, I question whether it is appropriate to have a map in the article that precisely assigns "North" or "South" status to specific nations unless there is a solid citation to a reliable source that specifically explains reasoning for each country's status (diplomatic influence, economic criteria, military power, trade agreements, HDI, whatever). If we can't have this, I think we should definitely not use a map that claims to objectively make pronouncements on individual nations' status (and implicitly claims to be official). jp×g22:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This definitely seems like OR to me. Original research in maps and charts can be harder to spot, but it's definitely a problem. Maps like this need to be verifiable, just like anything else. I don't think that it's possible for a map to exist on this article without significant problems; "Global North and Global South" is too nebulous, especially when compared to more widely accepted terms like developed/developing or first/third world. The article even devotes a lot of space to that exact issue, which makes the inclusion of a map seem like the article contradicts itself. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know that the South Sandwich Islands, a British Overseas Territory with zero population, is in the global south. Also check on the status of Cyprus, if you want a good headscratcher. At best the map on is nonsense. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See, this is the problem. This is not about what I think or you think, but what the historians think.
Rommel fought in Wehrmacht and was liked by Hitler. Some historians say that he was a Nazi. Many say that he did not understand even the basic tenets of the ideology - for example, Reuth, who's a notable critical historian. Hitler liking him, also according to many historians, was due to their non-aristocratic background or Rommel's talent and charisma, or that Hitler found him exploitable.
Even whether his death was a suicide or not is also a debatable matter. Some scholars don't call it suicide, but murder
And then, not every Nazi can be considered a Holocaust perpetrator either.
If you want your "basic reasoning" to be recognized, you might as well write a scientific article on Rommel yourself.
I also suggest this Peter Lieb article. It has some parts on the Africa episode. Even the way and the time Rauff tried to contact the Afrika Korps is a complicated matter. Another notable detail is that, Rommel and his rear commander Otto Deindl had no idea that Italian counter-insurgency forces were operating right behind their back (let alone the details of their operation, let alone the activities of Rauff and others who were hundreds of miles away) Deamonpen (talk) 00:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think they DID have an idea of what the Italians and Einsatzgruppen were doing, unless of course, you also believe in Neo-nazi David Irving's early theory that actually, hitler never knew of the holocaust, which is what you are doing right now but for Rommel. Death Editor 2 (talk) 00:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this is not you vs me, not a matter of what I think or what you think.
Irving has been discredited because historians have found concrete evidences that Hitler knew, supported and agitated for the killing of Jews, and not because people just apply "basic reasoning" and conclude that Irving is simply wrong. Mallmann, Cuppers, and Lieb have been en digging into the archives containing the papers of the units under Rommel and the records of other units and the Nazi government to see their perception of the situation, their plans etc. Even if Rommel somehow had predicted the defeat of the Axis power even during his Africa phase and ordered all the papers in his grasp to be burnt, other units would still keep their paper. Today, we know about the involvement of Nehring or von Arnim and the Afrikakorps/Heeresgruppe Afrika under them, but not Rommel. And as Lieb stated, Rommel never aigitated for the killing of Jews. -Deamonpen (talk) 00:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So do YOU agree that Erwin Rommel fought for the Nazi Regime as a Nazi General, ok so we can keep the nazis who committed suicide category and remove the holocaust perpetrators category. Death Editor 2 (talk) 00:42, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that I ever said that Rommel was in my opinion a Nazi general anywhere. I just said that, historians have different opinions on the matter. This is Brittannica's definition of "Nazi":
If we go by that definition, Reuth's portrayal of Rommel (fighting for Nazis without understanding their ideology and without committing crimes himself does not depict a Nazi (this is still a negative portrayal, if mild, as the author accuses Rommel of trying to close his eyes and trying to think of Hitler as good while blaming all the bad things on "the Party")
Also, to give some context on Rommel's status as Hitler's "favourite general": among all the "propaganda generals", he was the one who never got a Golden Party Badge (a reward for generals who supported the Nazi ideology, also functioning as a honourary party membership - as many generals were reluctant to officially become a party member due to military tradition). That should reflect on some of his popular ratings among the party's big wigs.- See the Lieb's article.-Deamonpen (talk) 01:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the golden party badge was a reward for loyal nazi generals, if it was Walter Model, someone who was very much a nazi would have it, and yet it didn't. And Oh again, he was still a Nazi General who fought for the Nazi Regime. And he definitely did commit war crimes in france. Death Editor 2 (talk) 01:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Model became prominent for Hitler later, when Hitler's relationship with Rommel became troubled. But Model was never a people's (propaganda) general on the caliber of Dietl, let alone Rommel. He was also not a high functionary that governed the political life of the army the way Keitel was.
Also, according to Lieb (also in the article above and the same part where he was talking about the Golden Badge), unlike the other generals, Rommel did not take special donations (bribes) from the regime. Also, admittedly, there are differences among authors concerning this (While all of them have been looking at the R 43 II of the Bundesarchiv, Ueberschär and Vogel do not know whether he accepted or refused anything or not, while Goda think that he was once a recipient but was cut off in 1944). Lieb is the last one who has published about that though.
According to Hans Lammers's interrogation by the CIA, Rommel was one of the two who never received anything. The other was Erwin von Witzleben:
It's always hard to go inside people's head to know what they think and what they are. For historical personalities, it was about the way they acted - whether they actively popularized the ideologies or not. Regarding Model, he is also thought by some to be kind of a "scapegoat". In the end, he was dead and he was unpopular among officers. During the war he did participate in atrocities, but that was also common for other German generals. Keitel, Schörner and Dietl were the torch carriers of extremism in that regime - Lieb is comparing Rommel with them in that respect. Basically, according to Lieb, Remy and Watson, the aspects of Hitler/the regime that Rommel sympathized with were the cult of leader/leadership and the "folk community", focusing on the breaking of class barriers (Rommel and Hitler were both "common men" who hated aristocratic dominance) - it depends on the scholar to say whether that makes him a Nazi or not. In the case of Remy, he "kindof" does that, even though his portrayal is also very positive.
The text of the article justifies neither category. Present reliable sources and gain consensus for a significant rewrite of the relevant sections of the article then add the categories. As it stands this is a non-starter. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 06:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's OR to say that because Rommel continued in the German Army after the Nazis came to power that he was a Nazi and was a perpetrator of the Holocaust. You need a source that comes to that conclusion. TFD (talk) 23:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is this a real thing? The writing is idiosyncratic to say the least...all the references are in other languages...it's impossible to Google...it's about a far-right topic and clearly written by a sympathizer. A lot of reasons to delete it. But I would value other opinions, and frankly I don't really want to go through the AfD process.Prezbo (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m only an amateur in matters of political categorization but at the very least this is not a thing in the English literature. There are many movements and ideologies that profess “revolutionary nationalism” so this article seems almost entirely OR used to claim that one of those ideologies (the one associated with the National Radical Camp, it seems) is the only real one. Indeed, if you look up “national revolutionary movement” on JSTOR, the first results span Rwanda, Bolivia, China, and Spain. So a topic with some specific coverage that should only be present in the existing articles on Third Positionism, syncretic politics, or specific organizations like Falanga (as a side note, that article, and many others in this political topic area, could use some fixing up). Cheers and happy editing, postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello!14:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Under "Etymology" Wikipedia is presenting an incomplete data abaut the name of Romania.
"Romania" derives from the local name for Romanian (Romanian: român), which in turn derives from Latin romanus, meaning "Roman" or "of Rome".[20] This ethnonym for Romanians is first attested in the 16th century by Italian humanists travelling in Transylvania, Moldavia, and Wallachia.[21][22][23]"
The name of the Vlachs/Wallacians is attested by many Popes of Rome, Byzantine Emperor (Constantin) and other officials and many other scholars...before the XVI century.
CONSTANTINE FLAVIUS PORPHYROGENITUS (BYZANTINE EMPEROR 913-959)
From "De administrando imperio".Constantine's surname,
PORPHYROGENITUS(that is, born in the Purple Chamber of the Imperial
Palace in CONSTANTINOPLE).
"The emperor Diocletian was much enamored of the country of Dalmatia,and
he brought folk with their families from ROME and settled them in this
same country of Dalmatia,and they were called ROMANI (VLACHS) from their
having been removed from ROME, and this title attaches to them until this
day..."
"The territory possessed by the ROMANI used to extend as far as the river
Danube"
(Constantine shows that the ROMANS(Latins, NOT Greek Romans or
Byzantines) or Vlachs are the original Romans.
"The country of the ZXHLUMI was previously possessed by the ROMANS, I
mean, by those ROMANI whom Diocletian the emperor translated from ROME"
(Constantine is talking about the Imperial Romans,who are going to be
known under the name of VLACHS).
"The country of Diocleia was also previously possessed by the
ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME"
"The country in which the Pagani now dwell was also previously possessed
by the ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME
and settled in Dalmatia".
"At that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the
ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from ROME and
settled there,and who therefore called ROMANI from their having been
translated from ROME to those countries"
SUMMARY: In his description of the Greek Roman Empire,we can definitely
identify two people,the Imperial Romans(VLACHS-those Romans who
initiated the empire),called by Constntine,ROMANI, and the Greek
Romans(BYZANTINES-those Romans who adopted GREEK as the language of the
State and Church).
POPE CLEMENT VI (1342-1352).
"Olachi Romani,commorantes in partibus Ungariae,Transilvanis,Ultralpinis
et Sirmus"
(In Hungary,Transilvania,Muntenia and Sirmia live the Roman-Vlachs)
or
"Tam nobilibus quam popularibus Olachis Romanis"
SUMMARY: Romanians = Romans (Vlachs).
POPE PIUS II (1458-1464) (Commentarium rerum memorabilium)
"VALACHI lingua utuntur Italica, verum imperfecta, et admodum corrupta;
sunt qui legiones Romanas eo missas olim censeant adversus Dacos, qui eas
terras incolebant; legionibus Flaccum quendam praefuisse, a que Flacci
primum,deinde Valachi, mutatis litteris, sint appellati;quorum posteri
(ut ante relatum est) "
SUMMARY:
(The Vlachs are a people of Roman origin,born from an antic Roman
Imperial colony,speaking a language close to Latin or Italian)
POPE Innocent III (in a latter from 1203).
"Therefore, we, who have been appointed by the will of GOD and Father,
unworthy as we are, as vicars and successors of the Apostolic See, to
prove by the force of facts our fatherly love for the Church of the
Bulgarians and ROMANIANS (VLACHS),who are said to be THE DESCENDENTS OF THE ROMANS,by their flesh and blood"
POPE Innocent III (in a letter addressed to IONITA, lord of the
Bulgarians and Romanians,from 1203)
"Thus, taking this into account, we have decided since long, through our
envoy or our letters, that we should pay a visit to your lordship, so
that,realizing your faith to the Roman Church,Your Mother, we might then
send to you,WHO SAY THAT YOU ARE A DESCENDENT OF THE NOBLE KIN OF THE
ROMANS...As, he (God the Father) will help you to be a ROMAN in this
wordily life and for your Eternal Salvation by your own striving, the
same as you are BY YOUR DESCENT; and he shall help the people of your
country, which say that they are the ROMANS,blood and flesh".
Francesco della Valle,1532,(Secretary of Aloisio Gritti,a natural son to
Doge Andrea Gritti).
"The Romanians(Vlachs) are of Italian stock, and according to them, they
are the descendants of the OLD ROMANS".
IOAN KINNAMOS(Imperial secretary under two Byzantine emperors, Manuel I &
Andronic)
"It is said about the Vlachs that they are the old descendents of those
from Italy".
Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480),Polish Chronicler.
"(1359) Stephano Moldaviae Voievodae, apud Valachos mortuo, quorum
maiores et aboriginarii de Italiae Regno pulsi ( genus et natio Volscorum
esse fuisseque creduntur) veteribus Dominis et colonis Ruthenis, primum
sudole, deinde abundante in dies multitudine, ".
After observing User:Nicolovaiana adding his own research to Hysteretic model, I removed it on the grounds of WP:OR. Then I noticed that virtually the entire article had been written by that user. The Matlab code included in the article has his byline on it. Four of the five sources supplied are by "Vaiana, Nicolò" and others. I don't know the extent, if any, to which material in the article, such as the mathematical formulas given, are published elsewhere in the field and the extent to which it's this user publishing his own research. Largoplazo (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: I'm looking again and seeing that even the formulas are preceded by the likes of "In the bilinear model formulated by Vaiana et al.". The entire article reads as a presentation by Vaiana of his own work. Largoplazo (talk) 13:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also find it interesting that the article does not mention two models for which we have standalone articles, i.e. Bouc-Wen model of hysteresis and Preisach model of hysteresis. And then there is this comment by an ip editor on the article's talk page This article, while giving off the air of being general, only cites work by the editor himself, and in the process ignoring almost a century of work on hysteresis modeling. This gives a very biased view of the field, to put it mildly, and rather feels like self-promotion by the editor. This is not how a scientist should conduct himself. (Talk:Hysteretic_model#Very_one-sided_view.) Looks to me like the entire article should probably go. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OR by genuine experts
The article is Chateau de Meudon. It came to my attention in the rough translation queue (WP:PNT); it was indeed a very bad machine translation.The topic is unquestionably notable, for its residents (kings of France, a king of Poland, a mistress of a king of France, etc), for the illustrious architects, landscape architects and painters who worked on it, and for the artwork that was housed there before it was moved to the Louvre and other museums. A recent talk page comment brought to my attention the involvement of a museum curator in the French Wikipedia page that our article was translated from.
I continue to work on the bad machine translation part of this, but what to do about the OR? I have previously encountered the like in other translations from French and taken the position that it is OK to mitigate this by verifying the content with independent sources, but in this case many of the diagrams and 3-D models are also the work of this editor and are too detailed to cite. And yet represent considerable work that is probably very valuable to a niche audience.
Eyes welcome. I could use some guidance here, and would like to end this by saying that I do realize that this article is not yet a polished, finished product. Elinruby (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:OI (part of our NOR policy) - Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the "No original research" policy.
So, the question is, do these original diagrams and 3-D models illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments? If not, then they should be fine. Blueboar (talk) 23:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For example: See the user page for Franck Devedjian at fr.wikipedia and the origin of this article there. For what it is worth, the article is chock-full of stiff academic Frenchness and unnecessarily long quotes from historic figures, but I am working on that part and almost all of these are notable enough for their own en-wikipedia pages. Nothing that the article says seems remotely dubious or controversial, either. I'm confident that all of that can be referenced. I don't think the OR policy had this article in mind, but out of paranoia would like to ensure that I am not breaking it, either. Thanks to Blueboar and anyone else who may apply brainpower to this question. Elinruby (talk) 00:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IMO its not too much to ask any such expert to publish the information elsewhere, even if just on a personal blog or website. If they don't want to do that then of course as experts they will be familiar with the body of literature in that field and can cite it... And if they can't... Well they certainly aren't an expert then are they? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just found a list of publications on the fr.wikipedia page but at first glance they tend to be about his methods for doing the reconstructions. I don't actually question his expertise; someone on the article talk page wants to consult with him about the chateau de Versailles, which is nearby and built by the same architect. Obviously, I have been wrong before and could be again, but I don't question his expertise as an art historian, at all. Where I am boggling is on how to independently cite room-by-room graphical representations of all of the murals and commissioned artworks and Andre Le Nostre terraced grand perspectives. It probably can be done, but might require a lot of primary sources. Maybe I should just see how far I can get with the referencing then revisit this question? For what it may be worth, I once put a lot of work into a similar architectural discussion of the water gardens and landscaping at Chateau de Chantilly, and his images of that seem pretty authoritative. I am actually pretty busy with other things just now and can wait for an answer to percolate through the hive mind; this article resurfaced in my list of things due to the Versailles inquiry. Elinruby (talk) 00:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why not ask him to provide citations for his work? This is what one does with a wikipedia editor who add unsourced text, no? If they refuse then simply remove the unsourced text and if they want the text to be included then they will be required to source it. If it helps to consider the text challenged than I will provide a gift: I formally challenge the unsourced text both in the English and French version of Chateau de Meudon. At least on EnWiki inline citations are now required, that will make you either want to kiss me or murder me but the article will be better off for it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well. Good luck with that at the French Wikipedia. I haven't formally investigated their referencing standards but as someone who has unFrenched a buttload of bad MT on French history, I can say that it often assumes a lot of prior knowledge, inappropriately for the English Wikipedia. And that this is not the first article that I have seen that was written by an authority in a niche field that was particularly so. What kind of an editor? One who knows what he is talking about who has taken the time to write for Wikipedia, however imperfectly?
That said this is English Wikipedia and sure. But even I (irony alert) cannot remediate all things with the wave of a wand. I am neither the author nor the editor who spawned the original MT horror I have spent a lot of time deciphering. I don't mind referencing it, but no, a challenge doesn't particularly help. Its most likely effect would be to further discourage me from remediating MT in French history articles, which I've already sworn off because it only ever leads to well-meaning editors lecturing me about the deficiencies I am trying to fix. This particular article just now came back to my attention -- someone had ill-advisedly removed the copy-edit tag. Since the last time I saw it someone had come through, presumably with a bot, and changed all of the galleries to mode="packed", which superimposed the captions on top the images. I spent most of yesterday on that. But such is Wikipedia.
The article is already tagged as needing references and important as the topic is probably too detailed for the English Wikipedia; I deleted some detailed descriptions of individual paintings yesterday as well. If you want to add CN tags to particular statements be my guest. Since I have worked on this article I intend to finish it now that I will see that it isn't, but I am also, as you know, involved with Collaboration with the Axis powers, and as well another huge project involving multiple articles on the ramifications of the Napoleonic code. If you were to rampage through this article and for example remove a statement that Mme de Pompadour was the mistress of the king because it was uncited, I would say that the statement might be BLUESKY even for Americans and that removing it probably does not improve Wikipedia. In any event the question I brought here is resolved as far as I am concerned. Elinruby (talk) 18:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have only praise for your work on these articles, I do not envy the position you are in. Does the French wikipedia not have a version of WP:BURDEN? Thats how we get around this sort of problem on the English wikipedia, if the person knows what they're talking about they can provide sources and if they can't provide sources then they don't know what they're talking about. Also note that verifiability isn't the only question you have to ask of this content... The primary question is actually due weight, because if its not published in a reliable source it carries exactly no weight and has no reason to be in the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
DUE is an issue indeed. I am only marginally available today but am chipping away at that a little; for example I think some of (maybe a lot of) the architectural plans are TMI. But yes, this article is a poster child for some of the problems at WP:PNT. This one is probably worth the trouble and I don't regret pulling it out of the pile, but we have hundreds of articles like this about entrepreneurs and sports figures who may or may not be notable and which may or may not get our competence questioned if we try to fix them. Sorry if I was short just now; I have had that conversation way too often and thought that was where we were going. I was serious though when I invited you to tag it; it would actually be valuable to see some {{what|why do I care about this}} tags indicating that certain details are impenetrable to an average English-speaking reader; it would triage out certain remarks that would probably be too much trouble to explain. As for BURDEN, come to think of it I should look up who created this translation, but it probably wasn't the museum curator and odds are the editor responsible has already been blocked. Do you remember the CTX kerfuffle from a few years ago? Elinruby (talk) 22:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IMO the page level tag is sufficient, especially as you're actively addressing the problem. As always there's no deadline, and thats doubly true for anything historical. Unless there's something that sticks out to you nothing needs to go today, the expectation is just that at some point in the future an effort will be made to source it if possible. I can't say I remember CTX. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Further clicking at French Wikipedia turned up Manière de montrer Meudon [fr] so I am going to say that it is not the case that nobody has described this property per Blueboar above. Despite the fact that it is referenced by a museum accession number here, it is nonetheless a single document with an identified author which presumably has a name or title. There is also an contemporary inventory on the contents of the palace in the BNF holdings, which come to think of it presumably also has a title and knowing the French probably a url as well. Elinruby (talk) 06:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Definition of "improper fraction" goes beyond what is supported by sources
Context: Numbers of the form a/b, where a & b are both positive integers, are referred to as "proper fractions" if a < b (equivalently, a/b < 1) and "improper fractions" if a > b (equivalently, a/b > 1).
The point of contention here is the case where a = b, i.e. a/b = 1, fractions like "3/3". The Wikipedia article asserts that "improper fraction" includes such fractions:
"Common fractions can be classified as either proper or improper. When the numerator and the denominator are both positive, the fraction is called proper if the numerator is less than the denominator, and improper otherwise... In general, a common fraction is said to be a proper fraction, if the absolute value of the fraction is strictly less than one—that is, if the fraction is greater than −1 and less than 1. It is said to be an improper fraction, or sometimes top-heavy fraction, if the absolute value of the fraction is greater than or equal to 1. Examples of proper fractions are 2/3, −3/4, and 4/9, whereas examples of improper fractions are 9/4, −4/3, and 3/3."
The relevant cites given in those passages are to Perry and Perry's "Mathematics I", and to Greer's "New Comprehensive Mathematics For 'O' Level". The relevant passages from those sources can be seen here and here.
What Perry and Perry actually says is: "A proper fraction has the numerator less than the denominator and an improper fraction has the numerator **greater than** the denominator".
And what Greer actually says is: "If the top number of a fraction is greater than its bottom number then the fraction is called an improper fraction or a top heavy fraction. Thus, 5/4, 3/2 and 9/7 are all top heavy, or improper, fractions. Note that all top heavy fractions have a value which is greater than 1."
As I read those sources, both of them clearly imply that fractions equal to 1, where numerator (top) equals denominator (bottom), are not "improper fractions". It's not clear what they *are*; possibly the authors don't consider them to be fractions at all.
On the talk page of the article, I have noted some other sources which offer definitions similar to Greer's. I am not aware of any sources to support the "or equal to".
To my mind, these sources contradict the "or equal to" part of the definition offered in Wikipedia, and the presentation of 3/3 as an example of an improper fraction.
Since the article is protected, I requested an edit on the Talk page. Editors there have refused to do this, either claiming that these sources are consistent with the page content - I do not accept that they are - or by appeals to aesthetics (it would be "ridiculous" for other positive integers to be improper fractions, but not 1), or by stating the page "must not be changed" because surely there must be sources out there which support the definition given.
I don't see how these positions are consistent with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. If there are sources which support the "greater than or equal to" version, then the article should include both and acknowledge that definitions are inconsistent on this point; if there aren't, then it should be changed to a "greater than" definition (including "improper otherwise" to "improper if the numerator is greater than the denominator") and the example of "3/3" should be removed. The current situation, where the article misrepresents the sources it cites by offering a definition not found in those sources, seems indefensible to me.
I'm therefore asking for uninvolved editors to take a look at this and see whether what I'm requesting seems reasonable, and if so to edit the article accordingly. 110.23.152.248 (talk) 03:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Without any sources to back this up right now my intuition says that 3/3 and anything else equal to one is not a fraction at all. I'll see if I can find something that backs this up (or refutes it). -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 04:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This textbook, Wolfram Mathworld, and mathisfun disagree with me. On the other hand the text by Perry and Perry you linked to says "All numbers which are quotients of two integers are called rational numbers, and those quotients which are not integers are called fractions." Which means they do not treat integers like 1 as fractions. The book by Greer does not mention 1, but implicitly treats it as not a fraction. It seems that this is not clearly defined. But either way, of course the article needs to represent the sources. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for finding those! Taking those into account, I think it would be reasonable for the article to say something like: "Some sources define "improper fractions" as those having numerator greater than denominator (equivalently, absolute value greater than 1) while others define them as having numerator greater than or equal to denominator, i.e. absolute value greater than or equal to 1", with cites to both kinds of reference. 110.23.152.248 (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Calculating per capita crime rates
Is it original research or "extrapolation" to calculate per capita crime rates based on total crime count and population? It simply means dividing one by the other. There's a bit of an edit war going on in Crime in San Francisco on this question. I don't believe it is, but one user thinks so.
Related: if this is inappropriate original research, then is it appropriate to revert this data and replace it with another calculation of exactly the same kind but with a different source? Hi! (talk) 04:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
